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#11
December 6th, 2011, 03:42 PM
 Friendo Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 330
Seems to be an eternal question

The general rule of thumb, stated in Wong's book and elsewhere, is that two hands at 3/4*X is about the same ROR as 1 hand at X, where X is the maximum bet, and the ramps are similar in the sense that the max bet comes at the same count for either scheme.

I am training for my first extended green-chip trip, and I have two ramps for each situation (depending on H17/S17, NSR/LSR, as well as number hands). The single hand ramp is \$25-\$300, and the two-hand ramp is 2x\$25 - 2x\$200.

Wonging out at around -8 Mentor = -2 High/Low, they both come out to about 0.3 Kelly, with the two-hand version a little higher.

For some reason, PBs seem to notice the guy betting \$400 more readily than someone betting 2x\$200, assuming the two-hands player isn't jumping back and forth between 1 and 2 hands, which is not a move I intend to employ.

(If anyone wants to disabuse me of my notions in that last paragraph, please do so. It will be profitable to be corrected on that notion, if it's a mistaken one.)

Last edited by Friendo; December 6th, 2011 at 06:48 PM.
#12
December 6th, 2011, 04:57 PM
 blackjack avenger Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 2,267
who, what, where

\$100 on 1 spot or 2 spots of approx \$73 are the same in terms of ror. In the short run, about 100 hours variance is higher. Trip ror goes up.

If one spreads a \$100 bet over 2 hands it would cut variance; long & short run, though EV is lost because you are eating cards.
#13
December 6th, 2011, 05:11 PM
 blackjack avenger Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 2,267
kiss

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Friendo The general rule of thumb, stated in Wong's book and elsewhere, is that two hands at 3/4*X is about the same ROR as 1 hand at X, where X is the maximum bet, and the ramps are similar in the sense that the max bet comes at the same count for either scheme. I am training for my first extended green-chip trip, and I have two ramps for each situation (depending on H17/S17, NSR/LSR, as well as number hands). The single hand ramp is \$25-\$300, and the two-hand ramp is 2x\$25 - 2x\$200. For some reason, PBs seem to notice the guy betting \$400 more readily than someone betting 2x\$200, assuming the two-hands player isn't jumping back and forth between 1 and 2 hands, which is not a move I intend to employ.
Agree with last paragraph, makes sense a \$400 bet is larger then dbl \$200 due to variance.

Make the betting easy:
Remember the ramp you will use the most & then make the easy adjustment when facing the other situation. The same approach can be used when playing different games. Know the bet ramp of the most common game then bet more or less for diffetent games. one needs to know the effect of rules & penetration.

Finally, with a big bank & table maxs one may bet near table max regardless one or two hands.
#14
December 6th, 2011, 05:59 PM
 blackjack avenger Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 2,267
not again

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Friendo about 0.3 Kelly,
I assume you mean resizing kelly?
#15
December 6th, 2011, 06:47 PM
 Friendo Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 330

Quote:
 Originally Posted by blackjack avenger I assume you mean resizing kelly?
But of course: I insist on it.

Are you of a different opinion?
#16
December 6th, 2011, 07:01 PM
 aslan Executive Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 8,683

I know when I am betting a 1 to 10 betting spread that if I spread to two hands at say, +4, it is advantageous to bet 2 X 8 rather than 2 X 10 to keep variance close to the same while getting more money on the table.

The situation I am asking about is when you are betting two hands "all the time" and wonging out <-1. In this situation where one does not spread to two hands "only" at some plus count, but all the time, is it still the same recommendation to bet 2 X 8 at max bet, or is some other formula better to keep a lid on variance.

Of course, the right answer might be to NOT play two hands in negative or neutral counts.

Does anybody know whether EV is greater with two hands all the time when RoR is not in question, as opposed to playing a single hand all the time?

Examples:

\$25 minimum bet, wong out at <-1
2 X \$200 at +4
vs.
2 X \$25 mimimum bet, wong out at <-1
2 X \$200 at +4
vs.
2 X \$25 mimimum bet, wong out at <-1
2 X \$250 at +4

ignoring gradually ramping up to max bet for the time being.

Last edited by aslan; December 6th, 2011 at 07:11 PM.
#17
December 6th, 2011, 09:05 PM
 Most Interesting Man Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 109

Yes EV will be greater if you play 2 hands all the time when compared to 1 hand all the time. At high counts you have more money on the table. At low counts you're eating cards.
#18
December 6th, 2011, 09:42 PM
 aslan Executive Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 8,683

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Most Interesting Man Yes EV will be greater if you play 2 hands all the time when compared to 1 hand all the time. At high counts you have more money on the table. At low counts you're eating cards.
I would suppose, however, the card eating advantage is moot if you are playing at full tables; i.e., if you are not eating cards someone else is. The sole advantage, unless you are at a less populated table, must be getting more money on the table at plus counts, and this is partially negated by having more money on the table in negative counts. Is that a fair statement?
#19
December 6th, 2011, 10:21 PM
 blackjack avenger Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 2,267
according to Qfit

The highest SCORE is playing 2 hands all the time. This is for 100 hands played.

Some factors:
The 2nd hand slows the game down, not just your play but dealer payoffs etc.
If you have to bet double table minimum it can be a factor, but for the dealer to even take the time to explain this is a waste for the house.
#20
December 6th, 2011, 11:47 PM
 Most Interesting Man Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 109

If there are others at the table let them munch on the cards for you.

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