Never hit a 12 against a dealer's 2 or 3

#1
Ok, so I saw another post on this board about other players getting there panties in a bunch when you hit a 12 against a 2 or 3. I've always hit those! ALWAYS. And many people get all ticked off.

I don't really care that they get ticked off, but I need a sanity check here: Is there an official strategy that I don't know about that says to "don't hit 12 against a dealer's 2 or 3?? Same goes for the hitting the A,7 against the dealer's 10. Is there any strategy that says to never do this?

I'm trying to give these dolts SOME benefit to the doubt here by thinking they know something I don't. But I wanted to check with you guys.

Thanks!
 

KenSmith

Administrator
Staff member
#2
No, these players just don't know enough about the game to understand these plays are correct.

They know "don't hit a bust hand against a dealer 2-6", but they don't know "except hit 12v2 and 12v3."

As for A7, they just think 18 is a good hand so why mess it up. Of course, 18 is not actually a good hand.
 

mrbill

Well-Known Member
#3
I've not only had people complain when I hit 12x2 or 12x3, but they really start to wonder when I double the bet. I know that's not standard and probably mathematically is the wrong thing to do but it seems to work for me.

I just look at Blackjack as recreation at this time, so I don't get into counting. I've played progressive betting schemes but now, I pretty much play a flat $5 or $10 bet. I have a few keys to allow me to get more money out there. Gets the blood flowing. Doubling a 12 vs 2 or 3 is 1 of them.

I look at it this way, the book says to hit, no matter what I get, I'm only taking one card so why not double. I had one night where I did that 6 times, I got 4 nines, 1 8 and an Ace. I won all the hands. I also realize it can turn around in the blink of an eye so if I lose twice in a row doubling, I stop it for a while.
 

KenSmith

Administrator
Staff member
#4
Actually mrbill, those complainers are playing this hand better than you and quite a bit better at that. Their suggested play of standing with 12v2 with a $10 bet causes an expected loss of $2.96. Your play of doubling will lose $5.04.

The best play (hitting) loses only $2.52 here.

So, I hope you're having $2.52 worth of fun on this hand, cause that's what you're costing yourself by doubling.
 

mrbill

Well-Known Member
#5
I don't know if it's worth $2.52, and I've always known it was mathematically the wrong thing to do, but I enjoy the looks from other people and the dealer announcing "Doubling on Hard 12". I don't do it every time though. If things are cool, I don't do it.
 

E-town-guy

Well-Known Member
#6
Ken, did you generate that information about how much money he'd lose using that program Casino Verite Blackjack Software? I was thinking of getting it but I downloaded a demo version and got completely lost without a manual. Does the version one can buy off your site include some sort of instruction manual? Furthermore is it sufficiently better than Blackjack 6-7-8, enough so to justify the extra money?

Thanks again!
 

KenSmith

Administrator
Staff member
#7
Casino Verite does come with a manual, but playing with it, and using the rather annoying wizard-help is the best way to learn how to use it.

For all the nice features it has, and there are many, I find the user interface to be a bother.

However, the numbers I generated earlier came from the Expected Value tables at BJMath.com
 
#8
Thank you Ken for finally talking about the 18 in blackjack, I get into more arguments with players as well as dealers for hitting the soft 18 versus a 9 10 or 11, and doubling down on a soft 18 versus a 3 thru 6. They just can't get it thru thier thick skulls that a soft 18 should be looked at as 8 in the above situations. THNK YOU.
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#9
KenSmith said:
Casino Verite does come with a manual, but playing with it, and using the rather annoying wizard-help is the best way to learn how to use it.

For all the nice features it has, and there are many, I find the user interface to be a bother.
If the wizard annoys you, turn her off. You can use the popup balloons. If they annoy you, turn them off. Use the Help button on each page. Or use the 120 page manual.

On the user interface, please tell me what is the bother. I am always looking for suggestions. There are really numerous options on the interface. For example, there are four ways of placing a bet; three ways of hitting, three ways of calling up menus.

norm
 

KenSmith

Administrator
Staff member
#10
Hi Norm. Thanks for dropping in. It'll take me some time to compile my thoughts on this, and I don't have the time for the next few days. I'll get back to it though. I'll drop you an email when I post an answer here.

And, just so you know, my stated opinion that CV is the best blackjack training tool out there hasn't changed a bit.
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
#11
KenSmith said:
Hi Norm. Thanks for dropping in. It'll take me some time to compile my thoughts on this, and I don't have the time for the next few days. I'll get back to it though. I'll drop you an email when I post an answer here.

And, just so you know, my stated opinion that CV is the best blackjack training tool out there hasn't changed a bit.
Thanks. But it can always improve.
 

cyclinggimpe

Well-Known Member
#12
I know that you guys always hit your 12 vs. a 2 or 3; but, I rarely do. I've been keeping a rough eye/count on my hitting a 12 or 13 against any dealers card and I've busted more than won. So, I play by the statistics for my hands and not the similators hands. I don't get worried or upset if someone hits their 12 so I would hope they don't get upset with me for not hitting it. This is a case of 2 peoples differences in opinions.

I was playing Basic strategy today and split my 9's against the dealers 2 and a couple of people thought I shouldn't. So there are always going to be people with their own strategy and who's to say who is 100 % correct? If they get really mad at me (which I haven't had happen to me yet), I would tell them that there's other tables that they could go play at. But, I usually stay at tables where people joke and have fun so I don't really have too much trouble with this. I don't enjoy BJ when everyone at the table are serious sour pusses. I guess I wouldn't be a good card counter.
 

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#13
cyclinggimpe said:
I know that you guys always hit your 12 vs. a 2 or 3; but, I rarely do. I've been keeping a rough eye/count on my hitting a 12 or 13 against any dealers card and I've busted more than won. So, I play by the statistics for my hands and not the similators hands.
Playing by the Statistics::::

There are 96 Faces (not counting Aces) in a 6-deck shoe. There are 312 cards in a 6-deck shoe. Less than 1/3 of the cards (.308) are cards that will bust you on a hard 12. In other words, you will bust on a one-card hit only 1 out of 3 times....twice you will draw cards that will not bust you.

I might suggest that it only seems that you bust more than you don't because you remember the bad beats more vividly than the wins.
 

BAMA21

Well-Known Member
#14
With five cards that give you a pat hand, four that break you, and four that leave you no better or worse off than you were, the odds are in your favor to hit; but it is a close call. The thing that moves me over the fence into definite hit territory is the small number of times the dealer will break with a 2, as compared to something like a 5 or a 6.

When I see a 5 or 6 up, I'm thinking win. When I see a 2 up, it isn't quite the same thing as seeing a face up; but it sure ain't "win" that I am thinking.
 

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#15
<<<LOL>>>

Ain't it the truth! Dealer deuces do not inspire confidence! Y'all might take a look over on Wizzard of Odds. He has a feature there that lets you specify the dealer's hand and your hand. It gives the expectations on the dealer making 17-21 as well as your expected win or loss percentage depending on your action on that hand.

BAMA21 said:
When I see a 5 or 6 up, I'm thinking win. When I see a 2 up, it isn't quite the same thing as seeing a face up; but it sure ain't "win" that I am thinking.
 

cyclinggimpe

Well-Known Member
#16
Mikeaber said:
I might suggest that it only seems that you bust more than you don't because you remember the bad beats more vividly than the wins.

You may suggest that all you want; but, I really don't think this is the case for me. I bust my 12's and 13's most of the time. I usually end up with a 22 or 23. I do remember my wins because they are very rare and I often get 20 or 21 when I do win those. I would take a paper and pencil into the casino next time but I think they might think I'm counting cards and not trying to hide that fact. ;)

This is why I don't think people should get upset with someones play in these cases. We each have our own opinions about what works and what doesn't work.
 

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#17
cyclinggimpe said:
This is why I don't think people should get upset with someones play in these cases. We each have our own opinions about what works and what doesn't work.
ABSOLUTELY. 100% agree! It IS your money and how you or anyone else (including me) determines how we wish to play it is the privilege we each are granted.

And, I meant no disrespect when I suggested you might remember the bad beats more than the wins. I know I do.

As for the 'fun' tables.....my wife used to get rather upset with me. More times than not, she'd find me at a table, the only guy amongst 5 women <LOL>. Then she started watching from behind me and discovered the same thing I did....as a rule, more women go the the BJ tables to have FUN than men do!
 

cyclinggimpe

Well-Known Member
#18
Mikeaber said:
As for the 'fun' tables.....my wife used to get rather upset with me. More times than not, she'd find me at a table, the only guy amongst 5 women <LOL>. Then she started watching from behind me and discovered the same thing I did....as a rule, more women go the the BJ tables to have FUN than men do!
So far the tables that I have had the most fun (and also had my most wins) were at table with a mixture of men and women who joke with each other and the dealer. But, we women tend to be the ones to loosen up the guys. I remember sitting at one table with all men older than I am and I felt so uncomfortable. No one said anything, not even to the dealer and there was not a smile to be seen even when they won. That is not my kind of table; so, I left and found a better one. But, some women can be sour also.

I gamble for entertainment so I don't get really upset when I lose. It's disappointing, but I then think, next time I'll come out ahead. So far I am up $80 since our casino opened. It's not a lot, but it goes back into my gambling money jar for next time. I'm not going to the casino to supplement my income, I go to have fun; and if I win, that's a bonus.
 

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#19
cyclinggimpe said:
I remember sitting at one table with all men older than I am and I felt so uncomfortable. No one said anything, not even to the dealer and there was not a smile to be seen even when they won.
:D I said "As a rule"...(or something like that) Definitely an unscientificly founded statement and upon reading it, sounds pretty sexist. No offense intended. But the concept, I'll stand by. I think that us guys go to the tables with idea in the back of our mind that we need to "prove something" and we are failures if we loose. As for me, the day it stops being fun...that's the day I quit playing.

And, quite honestly, that's one of the reasons I haven't tried very hard to polish skills as an advantage player. That type play doesn't allow time to kick back and enjoy a good table (meaning one with light hearted character). Counters must be focused on the game, must have a large BR to accomodate their spreads, and always, must be aware of heat from the Pit Critters. Sounds too intense for me <LOL>.

Instead, I play by the book, accept my minor losses, get to know my tablemates and consider the money spent as being the price of entertainment.....especially if there's "free booze" involved. I don't bet large enough to even be considered a "Ploppy" (I get no respect <LOL>)

I think we'd get along fine at the same table! Oh, and don't worry Cyclinggimpe.....I'm one of those "older men."
 

BAMA21

Well-Known Member
#20
I much prefer to play at a table where there is some interaction possible with the dealer and other players. The only problem is that the more interaction there is, the more room for being annoyed, especially if I happen to be losing. So I like a table that strikes a balance. I don't want to feel like I can't make a comment here and there; but I don't want to forget that it is a live game for real money either.
 
Top