Baccarat

supercoolmancool

Well-Known Member
#2
So you want to beat baccarat without cheating? Well there's only one way:

traynor said:
Publisher Lyle Stuart (a VERY serious bettor, with a "normal" bet of $2000) wrote a similar description of his experiences with baccarat, and in one of his books, with blackjack. He considered his mood and mental state of more significance than the probabilities involved.

Specifically, he studied what and how he thought/felt/behaved during sessions in which he won, and in sessions in which he lost. By identifying the difference, he was able to "predict" when his playing sessions would be very positive, average, or negative. By avoiding the "negative sessions" (his mood, not count), and leaning into the "positive sessions" he ran a quarter mil in the black over a couple of trips to Vegas. And wrote a fascinating book about it.

All bull, right? Not so fast in the judgement call. Consider, if you are counting, and you find a particularly advantageous situation, is there a change in your mood? Conversely, when the count goes sour, is there a corresponding change in your mood? The question becomes, which comes first?

In short, is it possible that Stuart "knew," from watching the shuffle, that he was more likely to win the next few hands, increased his bets, and won? Perhaps not consciously, but sufficiently "conscious" to feel a touch of elation, and one of those "I am unbeatable" moments that come all to rarely?

I have seen some uncanny events in time dilation experiments in psych research, in which the subject believes that "time" is slowed down. If you are interested, you might look for the time dilation references in Charles Tart's "Altered States of Consciousness" that involved Aldous Huxley and Milton Erickson. If such things can be done in time dilation experiments, it is obviously a capability of normal human function that can be applied to other situations.

Was Stuart "psychic"? Not at all. He just discovered that in particular states--relaxed, confident, and focused--he was "luckier." While some counters may feel threatened at the notion, I think it is more threatening to ignore a possible advantage that can be fairly easily gained with a little introspection.

Of course, all this can be blown off in a flash by recalling those situations in which you felt poorly, broke, busted, never-gonna-win-another-hand, and had an incredible run of cards that was better than anything you have experienced in a "positive" state, and finished the session 50 units up.

I think for most bettors, there is a very strong correlation between self-confidence, mood, and winning. Whether it is an uptick in mood because you realize the count strongly favors you, which in turn increases your confidence that you will win, or some other scenario, the bottom line is that emotional states and winning are often correlated. Perhaps not cause-and-effect, but definitely correlated.

Good Luck :)
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#4
I'm not one to write off the power of our subconcious, but i would be highly sckeptical of this and certainly wouldn't entrust my bankroll to it. If it was really so powerful, would everyday ploppys not be winning a lot more often? ;)

RJT.
 

ortango

Well-Known Member
#5
As thoroughly explained in Mathematics of Gambling by Thorp, Baccarat is not a beatable game through any regular advantage play methods. The probablility of an advantageous round for the player is almost nil, and the biggest edge comes only at the end of a shoe and if it only it meets certain criteria. It is therefore not beatable, but of course it is still one of the best games in the casino for the average player, especially if you can find 4% Banker commision games.

Even John May and other experts confess that Baccarat is unbeatable.... However, Tournament Baccarat is a totally different story. If you study a book like Casino Tournament Strategy, you will be playing with a significant edge using betting and position play while the ploppies around you will be use all their energy trying to predict if Banker or Player will win due to streaks :cow:
 

traynor

Active Member
#7
ortango said:
As thoroughly explained in Mathematics of Gambling by Thorp, Baccarat is not a beatable game through any regular advantage play methods. The probablility of an advantageous round for the player is almost nil, and the biggest edge comes only at the end of a shoe and if it only it meets certain criteria. It is therefore not beatable, but of course it is still one of the best games in the casino for the average player, especially if you can find 4% Banker commision games.

Even John May and other experts confess that Baccarat is unbeatable.... However, Tournament Baccarat is a totally different story. If you study a book like Casino Tournament Strategy, you will be playing with a significant edge using betting and position play while the ploppies around you will be use all their energy trying to predict if Banker or Player will win due to streaks :cow:

As a number of people earning very large incomes have observed, the results of a billion hands are particularly useful if you play a billion hands. The issue of believing that small samples (500-1000) will uniformly replicate the general population from which the sample is drawn has been explained in detail by Tversky and Kahneman as the "Law of Small Numbers" fallacy. Not theory, fallacy.

Good Luck
 

dacium

Well-Known Member
#8
Its not hard to access if a game can be beat. You just look at all possible shufffles of the deck and count how many are advantagous to the player, then you come up with a count system so you can tel when you are in an advatagous shuffle.

Bacarratt has advantagous shuffles so rarely (1 in millions) that it can't be beaten. I found the same thing when trying to beat perfect pairs blackjack.
 

traynor

Active Member
#9
dacium said:
Its not hard to access if a game can be beat. You just look at all possible shufffles of the deck and count how many are advantagous to the player, then you come up with a count system so you can tel when you are in an advatagous shuffle.

Bacarratt has advantagous shuffles so rarely (1 in millions) that it can't be beaten. I found the same thing when trying to beat perfect pairs blackjack.

I think it would be more appropriate to say that baccarat can't be beaten using blackjack-type card counting.
Good Luck
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#10
traynor said:
As a number of people earning very large incomes have observed, the results of a billion hands are particularly useful if you play a billion hands. The issue of believing that small samples (500-1000) will uniformly replicate the general population from which the sample is drawn has been explained in detail by Tversky and Kahneman as the "Law of Small Numbers" fallacy. Not theory, fallacy.

Good Luck
The results of a billion hands IS important to someone who only plans to play a small number of hands. You want to know what will happen in the longrun no matter how many hands you will play.

Like, let's say you plan on playing 1000 hands. So you run a 1000 hand simulation and find that that it resulted in -200 units. You're not going to conclude you shouldn't play because of that. You don't just simulate the number of hands you're going to play. It is important to know the longrun result, regardless if you will ever play that many hands or not.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#13
Preston said:
I doubt there's a system to beat bacarat.. but the odds are better if you go all player since there is no commission.
Except for, you know, every reputable source out there saying that the lowest house edge bet is on banker, even with the commission.
 

traynor

Active Member
#14
commission

The differences are microscopic. The purpose of the commission is to make the two alternatives as close to equal as possible; there is very little difference in the payoffs, unless you are wagering huge amounts.
Good Luck
 

traynor

Active Member
#15
ScottH said:
The results of a billion hands IS important to someone who only plans to play a small number of hands. You want to know what will happen in the longrun no matter how many hands you will play.

Like, let's say you plan on playing 1000 hands. So you run a 1000 hand simulation and find that that it resulted in -200 units. You're not going to conclude you shouldn't play because of that. You don't just simulate the number of hands you're going to play. It is important to know the longrun result, regardless if you will ever play that many hands or not.

Again, that issue has been explored at length by Tversky and Kahneman. Long term models may or may not be replicated in short runs. The tacit assumption that every segment of a population is a "representative sample" is misguided. Models with a large number of data points tend to more representative, but short models can swing wildly in one direction or another.

In your example, if a large sample (1,000,000 data points) shows a +3% return (very generous for casino blackjack), 1000 hand subsamples could be up, down, or even--regardless of the 1,000,000 data point sample results. So those results become more a matter of academic interest than of importance--at least in any meaningful sense.
Good Luck
 
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