Casino Heat

I was just wondering what other players experiences are with casino heat. If you noticed a pit boss paying more attention to you. Or I you have ever been invited to not play BJ at a casino. I don't think that I have ever drawn attention to myself, but I just might not be seeing the signs. What should I be looking for? Is there a certain bet level (a certain $ per bet or a certain bet spread) that might get you noticed faster? Are there any good books that deal with casino heat? ie... how to avoid it, how to see it or how to deal with it once you feel it.

Any stories about casino heat or advice are greatly appreacited.

Thanks

Unusual plays (ie, non Basic Strategy plays) will draw attention. Dealers will alert the Pit Boss whenever someone hits or doubles a hard 12 against a dealer bust card for instance. Most of the time, it is pretty obvious that the person doing this is not a "counter" but is just making stupid plays. If they are suspicious of you, they will review the tapes and if they see you doing this only when the count is in your favor, they will likely 86 you.

But the main red flag they notice is unusual betting practices. Increasing bets as the count goes up in particular. Believe me, they can tell the difference between someone betting a progression and betting on the count! They might ignore small betting spreads, but if you as a counter are taking full advantage of the count, you will come under heat from the casino in most casinos.

I have had a few experiences that I can share here. First of all, realize that I do not count. I can't see well enough to count with other players at the table. So the most I do is observe, in a very general sense, the preceived balance between high and low cards. I do bet some progressions, however, so I am no stranger to the procedure casinos go through with big bet spreads.

I was backed down once.

It was at the El Cortez in Las Vegas. I was playing a single-deck game, and was betting a 5 - 10 - 25 progression. I'd have bet higher, but I never lost three in a row. It was a slow time, and I got a pit boss watching me almost immediately when I sat down. She was standing off to the side, but doing nothing but watching my table.

After a couple of decks, I was up a decent amount, and I saw her talking with a big goon of an older man in a suit. He came and stood behind the dealer, who was a short foreign lady. He watched me lose at $5. Then he watched me lose at $10. Then when I slid out the green chip, he stepped around the dealer and pushed it back to me.

He said something like "I've already backed you down once today. I am not going to have you counting cards here." I tried to explain myself. What I intended to say was "Sir, there must be some mistake. This is my first time in this casino." (which was the absolute truth.) However, as soon as I said "Sir," he cut me off and said "Don't you sir me." I knew right then that I wasn't dealing with the brightest bulb on the tree, so I got my chips together and cashed out up $50 on about fifteen minutes of play.

I have since learned that my $300 buy-in was probably the thing that got them interested in the first place. So the fiorst lesson for me was, when playing at a real low-roller joint, buy in for small amounts. I didn't think much about the woman watching me, because I am fairly accustomed to that. However, I did know that something was up when she went to talk to monkey man and he came to the table. In hindsight, I probably should have got up then before losing the $15 to them.

I had a pit boss count down the discards once.

At a different casino, playing a single-deck game, I had a pit boss come to the table and count down the discards after I won a big bet. I assumed that he wanted to see if I knew what I was doing or not. When he was finished, he just put them back and walked away. I didn't see much of him for the next two hours, which were a nice win for me. I assume the count must have been against me when he checked it. While he was there, I just ignored him.

I've been asked how much I won a few times.

Once in a downtown casino, the pit boss came over to me after a nice long winning session at the nickle double-deck game and ask how much I had won. I told him $350, and chatted him up a bit about the town. He seemed very nice; and I have no reason to think he suspected me of counting. He had, however, watched my play quite a bit during the session.

Another time, a pit boss asked me how many black chips I had taken away from one table when I had moved to another one. He then insisted that I count them in front of him instead of him counting them, even though I pushed the stack over to him to count. I have felt since then that he was doing that to try to screw with me, in case I was counting. And interestingly enough, I went on a losing streak right after that and dropped most of those blacks right back to them.

I had a dealer overly-interested in my strategy once

I was playing, and winning, and a relief dealer came in who just made it his business to discuss my strategy at great lengths with me, even though the table was full. It wasn't much later when I got yet another new dealer and proceeded to lose a good bit of what I had won previously. I have since learned to be more evasive. It is one thing to make a comment or ask a question here and there. It is quite another to try to learn all of the details about what I do in certain situations.

In general

You should expect the dealer to notify the pit when you raise your bets beyond a certain level, which varies from place to place. They normally do this by calling out "Cheques Play" and then getting some sort of response from the pit. I played one day when the dealer called that on practically every single hand for four hours; and I hardly ever saw a boss. Other casinos don't call it at all unless you have a huge spread. Once I was at such a place, I raised my bet slowly over several hands from $10 to $500. The dealer called "cheques play" on the $500 hand, and the pit boss came over to watch that hand.

Many places will also call out if you change the color of your chips. For instance, if you start betting green chips at a $5 table where you've been betting red, they'll sometimes call out "green action" to the pit. And most places call out "black action" when you bet $100 chips. But this isn't "heat", necessarially. It is just them notifying their boss according to their protocol, and it sometimes has more to do with accounting than counter-catching.

Real heat starts when they start shuffling up when you put out a big bet, changing dealers on you when it isn't the appropriate time to do so, etc. You have to just play on when you see someone watching you. If you act all freaked out by it, they may take you for a counter because of that. You have to remember that the average weekend gambler does not pay attention to the pit. So if you do, you're not an average weekend gambler in their mind. Plus, sometimes when they are watching you they are trying to decide how much of a comp to offer you.

In my personal experience, the "heat" is greater in Las Vegas than anywhere else I have played; and it is much greater in single-deck games than in any shoe game anywhere. I assume that is because they are more vulnerable there, and that most counters seek out those games.

Lots of books have some info on casino heat and countermeasures. I always recommend Blackbelt in Blackjack as a good starting point.

Dealer

i just finish a blackjack course not long ago and been workin at the casino for 2weeks, one thing we werent taught(and quite a number of people may think) is looking for card counters but over 1month training course, we instructor spent 5mins telling us to notice players who bet a little then raises bets which would be counters but nontheless my training and casino emphasize on PR then again that 5mins was just giving the reason why to 'pinch' the discard rack

i actually like players winning it's nice, and when i see a player who seems to know how to play like starts w/ a hundred bucks and earning himself 1,000+ i ask how he does it lolz.. turns out to be an ex-blackjack dealer as i notice how he handled his chips

My wife likes to arrange her chips in a pyramid shape, the top pointing to the dealer. It is her way of keeping visual track of how she is doing. The dealers would kid her about her "system". I was watching TV a couple weeks ago, American Casino, their security was watching a couple where the wife was signaling her husband how to play the hand by arranging her chips. The casino figured the wife was catching a glimpse of the dealer's down card and signaling. It got me to wondering what the cameras and security thought of my wife's pyramid system. They are probably still scratching their heads. We did leave up a few hundred on that trip.

Felt the heat!

Every time I have walked in the door, including the first time, at Las Vegas Club, the pit boss has watched me like a hawk. Maybe I just fit their "counter mold" or apear suspicious in general. I have only played the $25 single deck table, which has always been empty, during the day. I buy in for $200, and usually buy in again for another $200. I have left with $800 to $1400, total. But, not before two pit goons chat. Then they make a phone call, then another comes down to watch. With three goons watching and wispering, I make a couple bad high wager bets and ask the dealer to count my cards when I have drawn four or more cards, feigning bad math skills. One time I did this I heard one of them say "He can't be! But he's up six black!" Each time I have colored up at the Club, the supervisor comes over to push getting a comp card. They once offered a room and meal for the weekend. I respectfully decline, cash out and leave. I fully expect to be backed off here soon. It's the best BJ game I have found anywhere; The Vegas Club still has 3/2 BJ payout on this single-deck game.

About 2am one Sunday morning, I walked into the New York, New York high limit area. Four open BJ tables & dealers, two pit bosses, and me. I was alone in "the pit." I bought in for $1000 at a two deck table. I doubled in two shuffles. I doubled again in three more shuffles. The two pit bosses start watching closely and wispering. I cooled down the bet spread, but one of them made that darn phone call. A third suit walked in while the count went way up, again. I pushed out a $400 bet, doubled down on an 11 verses 4. Won that hand. I heard one say to the other, "He hit it again, on a $400 double down." Despite a great count, I dropped down to single black for the rest of the shuffle, and colored up for $5100, total. NY NY's high limit pit has a private cash cage, so I walked the 20 feet and passed my chips over. Although the cashier had appearantly watched my entire playing session, she still had to make the call to report $5100 cash out and to verify the table. She had to scrutinize my Drivers License, and check for markers or comps. I had none. I don't think she scanned or recorded my ID. She was slow to count out the cash, but finally pushed the pile toward me, reluctantly. As I tryed to walk out, what I think was a top supervisor or possibly the Casino Manager approached me and asked loudly to see my comp card and ID. I assured him I did not have a comp card, and the cashier had already looked at my ID. Realizing that I had forgotten to toke the dealer, I ripped out a Hundred and throw it on the table as I passed by and yelled out "Thanks." As I made my way rapidly out of the pit, the guy yelled out one last time, "Come back, I just want to talk with you, sir." I yelled out "No thanks, got to meet the wife at MGM an hour ago!" as I made a B-line for the Pedestrian cross way. They did not chase me.

These so far, have been my only two experiences with "heat." When I play with a crowd, my play usually merits only an acknowledgment from the pit boss, coming or going. I won several thousand at a two-deck game at Mandolay Bay, and the pit boss never even acknowledged my color up departure, including a brown $5000 chip, because several other players where wagering brown chip bets per hand at my table and others in the same pit. Small buy-in at high, crowded tables equals minimal heat, al least so far.

It goes without say that I have never experienced any heat whatsoever when the count goes down, I drop 20 or 25 betting units quickly and leave.

I think some of the best advice I have ever encountered on heat is exactly what you are talking about at the end there. It pays to be the small fish at the table. Just about anybody I have ever talked with has confirmed that if you can get on a table where there is somebody else throwing around big money, you can do whatever you want without getting much attention. On the other side, I have been the guy at the table betting the most; and you do get more atttention, especially if you win a couple of big bets.

Heat

Old thread on heat, but a very nice thread.

I've never gotten enough heat to be backed off, shuffled on, or have someone phone call upstairs. At most, I've only been stared down by the pit staff.

One situation which I hate a lot is when I've lost quite a bit and then I'm fighting and betting big to come back. I finally make back all my losses to make the session even, not up, not down. But then, I still get heat from the pit staff. It's only mild heat, and nothing to really worry about. But I just hate it when they look at you and say something like, "Nice come back" in a sarcastic way. It's terrible knowing they're not rooting for you at all. Other times, the pit just stares at the pile of chips in front of me. I know they're just trying to do accounting for the table, but I can't help but feel that some of the pit staff become suspicious of someone who can make a come back.

I've only had one situation where the pit staff rooted for me to win. I was just hanging out with a friend, drinking, talking, while my friend of playing. Even though I wasnt' actively playing, of course I back counted. And when the time of right, I plopped $300 on top of my friend's bet. In front of the pit staff. In fact, I asked him politely if I could put my bet on top of my friend's. (The rest of table was full). The dealer didn't seem too fond of my play and huge better. The other people at the table gasped at the size of this better. We were at a $10 min table. The pit staff seemed to be rooting for me. He told me, "You've got b*lls! Let's see if this works out!" He was encouraging. We ended up winning the hand. The dealer was absolutely terrible. She disliked me, and after she flipped over her cards, she reached out as if to take our huge bet away. Then she paused because everyone at the table was cheering. She looked down, realized she had busted, then turned around to start paying the table. I think she was so caught up in watching me bet big, she just wanted me to lose, so she expected to be able to take away our bets. The pit staff continued to be encouraging after the big bet won, said some congratulary words, and then just walked off.

As a tie-in with the other thread on chip management, what should I do if I have a large stack of chips in front of me because I've just staged a come-back? I'm not up, and I'm not down. If the pit staff did their records correctly, they should know that I'm even, and all those chips in front of me are just my own money. Should I cash out and leave? Or should I play on? A third alternative is to cash out most of the money, pocket that portion, and leave the amount that I initially bought in for in front of me to play. Does it look unnatural to I go back to betting around minimum after having to play many big bets to chase my loss and make my come back?

If you did a good job of it, you would have a good portion of your chips in your pockets. This is easily done when you go on bathroom breaks, or you can always keep chips in your hands so that you can always deposit some in your pockets right at the table. You can always foil pit counts by holding chips in your hands. Pits keep track of black chips as a rule, but pockets full of green chips and even a few blacks can elude their count. Don't do it all at once. Also, you don't want to establish a record of always winning. You can get backed off for always being a winner; you don't have to count.

Returning to betting min bet after betting max bet (during a plus count) is a clear sign to anyone watching who can count. You have to size up the pit crew as to whether they themselves can count. Of course, min bet, then raised bet, then min bet is a telltale sign of a counter even for those who cannot count. I have had sheer ploppies at the table say, "You must be counting, because every time you increase your bet, you win." If a ploppy can see it, a pit guy can. So, if you want to hang around, you have to mix it up. You can always raise your bet in neutral counts, because the long run effect of that is break even. This will buy you time until the next long plus count. But you have to ask yourself, "Why am I hanging around?" If it's just laziness, you should get your butt up and go to another casino if you still want to play. Why deliberately put yourself under a microscope, unless you just like the cat and mouse play that will ensue? Whatever floats your boat!

PS--Sometimes I enjoy the cat and mouse myself. But the cover required can give up all your advantage, and may even return the advantage back to the house.

I got heat at 3 places in Vegas. At the El Cortez I was flat betted and barred from blackjack. At another place the pit boss whispered "shuffle" as I raised my bet from 10 to 40. At another place the pit boss told the dealer to shuffle every round on a single deck I was playing heads up. At Fitzgeralds I played the double deck game for hours with no heat. I took a break there by playing craps where the pit boss could see me. I mostly just stood at the table and made a few minimum bets, ratholed there and then went back to blackjack and complained about my "loss" at craps.

I think I got my first case of heat this weekend. I'm still practicing but can successfully count through a 6 deck shoe. Was betting table minimum $10 almost exclusively and started doubling my bets when the count was up. I think I made a mistake playing two hands at once during this time. Boss was staring me down for what seemed like a few minutes. Finally let up and the table cleared. I ended the night playing an entire shoe just the dealer and me. Made about $100 that night. Not great but I'm still practicing and learning.

Or I may have just be paranoid. Still wasn't ballsy enough to split 10's against a 6.

To preserve longevity, I don't think you should split 10's vs 6's. But that's just my philosophy. Others on this site, in particular one person, would do it. Probably all the time.

I don't mind attracting attention, but I try to avoid attention that spells counter.

That would be me

If the count's over +4 I will split 10s against 5 or 6. Sometimes if the pit boss is watching I will split 10s when I'm betting the minimum. One time in Vegas when I felt heat because a pit boss was staring at my table I split tens against a dealer ace. It was only a $5 bet, $10 after splitting the tens. Got a 9 on one and a 3 on the other, hit the 13 and busted. I won one bet so it was a push. After I did that the pit boss stopped staring at my table and I played for hours.

Ploppies hate it when I split 10s. Some will leave if it causes them to lose their hand.

Players who split tens are either very stupid or very smart. If you convince a pit boss that you're stupid by splitting tens against a good dealer card, chances are he will think you're one of the stupid players. Your comps might actually increase because it may be calculated with a higher house edge than BS (even though the house edge will really be negative).

I was going to say that if I ever intended to split tens, I would first do so on the first or second hand of the shoe to establish myself as clueless. Then I would feel free to do so later when max bet was called for. However, even with this ploy, such a move departs dramatically from my normal play which is perfect BS except for a few minor deviations on occasion for camo. It would look out of place and create negative attention. Also, my ploy might not be noted being that it is for min bet, so that when I do so in a plus count, it will still attract negative attention. It's just not me.

I have someone split 10's 4 times on me this week on blackjack machine, he end up one lost and win one, but cause the entire table lost every time by eating the Dealer bust card. I end up cash out 5 minute after everyone else left.. After I cash out, He cash out too. So he move to the next table and I put the money ticket back in and start winning again... 5 minute later he come back.. and I cash out again right after he put money in.. It was funny, We repeat the process for at least 3 more times before he finally gave up. :whip:

If you're afraid of splitting tens because that's what all the books say, you might want to also consider not taking insurance on stiff hands, always playing your 16 v T the same way, and never take surrender (how many times have you taken surrender to find all the civilians around you asking what surrender is and being shocked that it's offered?). All of those plays spell "counter" about as much as splitting tens, but they don't have the stigma of the old ten-split does to counters. In my opinion, counting is so visibly obvious in the first place that you might as well a) play aggressively with little or no cover and keep sessions short or b) play a low EV game and always be afraid of heat. If they make your play based on splitting tens, they'll be able to do it any number of other ways, too.

Your mileage may vary, but for low-mid stakes counters, I think short (usually unrated) sessions, large spreads, and little/no cover are the way to go. No mercy, heat be damned.

I won't be afraid to re-split tens to 3 hands if the count is still high

If longevity is an issue, don't split'em. If not, split'em.

You make very good points. I feel that splitting 10's does alert the pit more than the other plays you've suggested. I also have not been able to find the right camo act to play 10 splits very well. On the other hand, I have been able to play 16 v T as well as insurance plays - to very humorous results that keep the table smiling and laughing. The plays don't seem to arouse pit crew. So I keep on playing these. The few times that I have split 10's - it's been announced by the dealer, "Splitting 10's!" and the pit crew often comes over to watch the hand. If I could play it without much heat at the regular stores that I play at, I would.

Another way to look at this is, I play it this way to preserve longevity at my regular, local stores. When I'm playing at a store that I don't frequent regularly or don't plan on going back to, then I would play very aggressively, including the 10 split. If I don't plan to go back, then I'm with you. "No mercy, heat be damned."

At my local stores, I'd like to keep them guessing. I'm sure they're always suspicious because I don't seem to lose very often and I always play long sessions. I'm sure they recognize that I know how to play and I know what I'm doing. It's hard for me to play short sessions when I'm driving 4 hours to play. I also play rated at these places for the comps. So my compromise is to to play some camo plays that of course sacrifice EV, but hopefully, will keep me around longer.