Wow that sucked!

#1
I'm just finishing up a sequencing mission at a theoretically very beatable shuffle in Atlantic City, and oh was this trip a disaster.

First clue- the bus ride. I got a mighty comp at the store in question so being I wouldn't need to stay out at the roach motels on Rt 30, I wouldn't need a car, so I took the bus from CT to AC to save expenses. It was late every step of the way. The leg from CT to NYC was OK but the next one was full, cramped and dirty. The malt liquor and fried chicken was being passed around like an ethnic joke being acted out. Some of these people don't have the best hygiene either, and BO was everywhere. Couldn't wait to get off.

Then the real pain began. I decided to take my first run single-ace, single-key, and had good results. Then it just turned to garbage. And the amazing part was, I was catching my bullets! Just nothing to go with them. Typically I'd end up with a soft double, get stiffed and the dealer would catch a 5 card hand. Unbelievable. I switched to a couple of other simplified methods that don't require memorizing 24-32 key cards so I could both record and play back keys on the same shoe, with about the same results. Finally I played a carnival game where you have over a 5% advantage if the next card is not an ace, to let the variance associated with sequencing work against the house rather than against me, and I got absolutely hammered. Sure, I was dodging the dealer's aces quite well, but he just caught hands time after time after time. Walked away to reanalyze.

I came up with this- that the variance for this type of sequencing is probably a lot higher than for counting because you are predicting only one card, whereas counting provides a degree of prediction for all cards. In other words, if the deck is rich in 10's, I not only have a better chance of getting a natural and of a double down converting desirably, but of the dealer busting not only on his first draw but on any card he draws. Single-key single-ace sequencing helps me get an ace on my first card but does exactly nothing for my second card, nor for the dealer's draws. So even if I get my ace, there's no expectation that the rest of the cards won't be working against me, thus the effect of every card other than my first one is pure luck. So it would seem that I can't bet a hand with a 2% advantage due to sequencing as aggressively as I would a hand with a 2% advantage due to counting. Does this make sense? Thanks in advance.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#2
Sorry to hear that.Hopefully you have a pass for Diamond Jims to watch the Big Game tomorrow.
I've been on a few of those bus rides myself. Endless trees,trees ,trees,when will they end.Now,I go mid-afternoon on Mondays and there is rarely more than a dozen people on the bus.Hope you at least got some fried chicken out of the ordeal.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#3
A casino bus ride to Jersey sounds like a portal to an entirely new and horrible level of hell.

Automatic Monkey said:
So it would seem that I can't bet a hand with a 2% advantage due to sequencing as aggressively as I would a hand with a 2% advantage due to counting. Does this make sense?
From a totally non-mathematical level, this doesn't seem right. First, when you are guaranteed at least one ace in your hand, aren't you supposed to have something like a 30% edge or something ridiculous on average across all possible player and dealer hands?

Second, I understood the idea is to bet really, really, big on those hands where you catch the ace. Instead of a 10x spread, it's more like a 50x or 100x. However, you're only doing it for one hand. The massive bet would be a huge source of variance.

Finally, when straight counting, you're going to be playing a lot more "max bet" hands than when sequencing, right? That's going to give you a greater number of hands to smooth results over.
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#4
EasyRhino said:
Second, I understood the idea is to bet really, really, big on those hands where you catch the ace. Instead of a 10x spread, it's more like a 50x or 100x. However, you're only doing it for one hand. The massive bet would be a huge source of variance.

Finally, when straight counting, you're going to be playing a lot more "max bet" hands than when sequencing, right? That's going to give you a greater number of hands to smooth results over.
Bang on with those 2 ER. And you have somewhere between 49-52% advantage if i remember correctly. You then have to factor in several other things, like how often you are accurate with landing the A in your hand and what not.
Then you work out your average advantage over just those hands to calculate how much money you should be putting out any time you are targetting an ace to your hand. The justification for this is that saying you have an average 2% advantage counting doesn't mean that you bet 4 units on every hand, you vary it to what your precises advantage is at any point. So when ace sequencing you have a huge advantage any time you know you have an ace coming and no advantage any other time, so you bet once again in correlation with your advantage.
I might give an example of how i would calculate how much i'd put out when i get back from swimming if anybody's actually interested.

RJT.
 
#5
Sure. The advantage to sequencing is that 50% times the probability of getting an ace. So with single-key sequencing in an 8D game, you start out by dividing that 50% by 8. This shuffle has about a 1 in 3 chance of the target being where it's supposed to be relative to the key, that's where I get my 2% advantage. 'm going to get a big bet down about 1 out of 3 hands. This is significantly better than the 1.2% I can get from counting such a game. But the variance problem I'm seeing is that after I get my first card, all other cards are random and I may have bet into a very low count. So if I didn't get my ace and get a stiff I'm screwed even worse than if I got a stiff betting into a high count.
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#6
Automatic Monkey said:
So if I didn't get my ace and get a stiff I'm screwed even worse than if I got a stiff betting into a high count.
In a low count you're more likely to turn your stiff into a good hand. I guess the dealer has that same luxury, but it's not as bad since you will more often hit your stiff to a pat hand as well.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#7
So what you're referring to is having a bet proportional to a 2% advantage out, instead of a bet proportional to a 1.2% advantage?

What about the Semyon Dukach method of playing three (or all!) spots at the table, to maximize the chance of catching that ace? Sure, you'd have big bets out on at least two hands where you had no particular advantage, but you wouldn't have to divide the 50% single-hand advantage by as much, it might pay off. (well, there's the heat...)
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#8
EasyRhino said:
So what you're referring to is having a bet proportional to a 2% advantage out, instead of a bet proportional to a 1.2% advantage?

What about the Semyon Dukach method of playing three (or all!) spots at the table, to maximize the chance of catching that ace? Sure, you'd have big bets out on at least two hands where you had no particular advantage, but you wouldn't have to divide the 50% single-hand advantage by as much, it might pay off. (well, there's the heat...)
You could make your biggest bet on the one hand you expect the ace to come, and decrease your bet as you get farthur away from that spot, since the farthur from the predicted spot, the less chance of it happening.

Although it seems to me the highest EV, yet highest variance play is to bet big on only the one hand you expect the ace to land. You could still bet multiple hands to steer the ace if needed.
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#9
AM,
The first point i'd like to make is that your advantage is an average advantage across all counts. If you only tracked Aces that you knew were in packets of high cards your advantage could be a lot higher than the 50% due to the higher probability of getting blackjack, but in the long run this would be a less profitable option as it would occur a lot less often.
What you should ask yourself is how many sessions have you used sequencing, how many individual times have you tried to land the (aka how many times per session x how many sessions) and how much money have you made (or lost) overall? That way you can work out your SD and what not.
I'm going to PM you my thoughts on bet sizing as i'm not sure if i'm comfortable discussing this subject on a public forum in this detail.

RJT.
 

mdlbj

Well-Known Member
#10
Automatic Monkey said:
I'm just finishing up a sequencing mission at a theoretically very beatable shuffle in Atlantic City, and oh was this trip a disaster.

First clue- the bus ride. I got a mighty comp at the store in question so being I wouldn't need to stay out at the roach motels on Rt 30, I wouldn't need a car, so I took the bus from CT to AC to save expenses. It was late every step of the way. The leg from CT to NYC was OK but the next one was full, cramped and dirty. The malt liquor and fried chicken was being passed around like an ethnic joke being acted out. Some of these people don't have the best hygiene either, and BO was everywhere. Couldn't wait to get off.

Then the real pain began. I decided to take my first run single-ace, single-key, and had good results. Then it just turned to garbage. And the amazing part was, I was catching my bullets! Just nothing to go with them. Typically I'd end up with a soft double, get stiffed and the dealer would catch a 5 card hand. Unbelievable. I switched to a couple of other simplified methods that don't require memorizing 24-32 key cards so I could both record and play back keys on the same shoe, with about the same results. Finally I played a carnival game where you have over a 5% advantage if the next card is not an ace, to let the variance associated with sequencing work against the house rather than against me, and I got absolutely hammered. Sure, I was dodging the dealer's aces quite well, but he just caught hands time after time after time. Walked away to reanalyze.

I came up with this- that the variance for this type of sequencing is probably a lot higher than for counting because you are predicting only one card, whereas counting provides a degree of prediction for all cards. In other words, if the deck is rich in 10's, I not only have a better chance of getting a natural and of a double down converting desirably, but of the dealer busting not only on his first draw but on any card he draws. Single-key single-ace sequencing helps me get an ace on my first card but does exactly nothing for my second card, nor for the dealer's draws. So even if I get my ace, there's no expectation that the rest of the cards won't be working against me, thus the effect of every card other than my first one is pure luck. So it would seem that I can't bet a hand with a 2% advantage due to sequencing as aggressively as I would a hand with a 2% advantage due to counting. Does this make sense? Thanks in advance.
What was your count?
 
#11
Automatic Monkey said:
So it would seem that I can't bet a hand with a 2% advantage due to sequencing as aggressively as I would a hand with a 2% advantage due to counting. Does this make sense? Thanks in advance.
Yes. I am such a wimp that when I sequence single key in 2D, which I'm quite good at, my sequence bets are not larger than my counting big bets.

Your trip also underscores the importance of using astrology to plan your trip dates! zg
 
#13
zengrifter said:
Yes. I am such a wimp that when I sequence single key in 2D, which I'm quite good at, my sequence bets are not larger than my counting big bets.
Ha, DD sequencing is easy! 8D will have your head spinning in about an hour. I found it easier to just write down all those key cards while I'm playing.

zengrifter said:
Your trip also underscores the importance of using astrology to plan your trip dates! zg
Or maybe using controlled substances on my trip dates.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#14
I came into this discussion a little late, but I think I understand your point:

Automatic Monkey said:
So it would seem that I can't bet a hand with a 2% advantage due to sequencing as aggressively as I would a hand with a 2% advantage due to counting. Does this make sense?
That’s probably true, although it’s something most books don’t mention. They often talk about proportional betting, but not necessarily optimal betting. Let us not forget:

Optimal Bet = Advantage * Bankroll / Variance

Most sequencing books forget to account for variance. As you mentioned, the variance with sequencing can be higher than straight counting because you have no information about the other cards. On average you will do very well, but the short-term fluctuations will be pretty big. That is why I believe that you cannot bet a 2% advantage the same way you would if you were straight counting. You have to adjust your bets for the variance.

It looks like RJT is already on track for calculating the variance and probably sent you the info you’re looking for. Actually, I wouldn’t mind a copy of that myself. ;)

-Sonny-
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#15
Automatic Monkey said:
...I wouldn't need a car, so I took the bus from CT to AC to save expenses...The malt liquor and fried chicken was being passed around like an ethnic joke being acted out. Some of these people don't have the best hygiene either, and BO was everywhere.
Hopefully you had your bankroll tucked away safely! If someone saw you with that stack of Benjis it might have been a very short bus ride for you!

I’m sorry to hear about your big loss. Maybe it’ll take some of the heat off and score you another comped trip.

-Sonny-
 
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