I <3 Ls

[Mimosine]

I love late surrender.

I used it extensively last night, only when called for and it probably saved me 4-5 units over the course of 3 hours of play. I really can't believe how powerful it is sometimes and dread the day of playing without it. I also can't believe how noone where i play knows how to use it. this glaring error played itself out countless times as people hit 16's against 10's and lost.

and time and again when i surrended the dealer had a pat hand.

someone on here said they'd rather play H17 LS, than S17 NS... deep down i kinda agreed with that, having used LS a couple dozen times now, i'm the most devout believer!

[ChefJJ]

Where again do you play?

[rogue1]

When I surender I always have people asking me or the dealer what that all means. It's a very player friendly rule.

[MEDITANK]

Mimo, that is the only reason I like playing at Barona, but that dreaded shuffle that they have IMO is the reason why the TC never goes very far above +1. Boring to just play BS day in and day out. With only 2 $5 tables, it is very difficult to wong in and out because there are 3 more just waiting to take your spot. Very frustrating. With the LS though, it turns the $5 minimum into a 2.50, so with a small BR, that can really stretch out your buck during those negative counts! Great going also on hanging on for dear life during those horrible negative shoes. I try and compensate that by hitting alot more aggressively which helps to also eat up those low cards at the same time. I can only hope to break even during those negative shoes. Not being able to wong out due to the crowds is very frustrating to me.

[ihate17]

I honestly can not tell you why. I honestly can tell you that if I owned a casino, I would put it in immediately.

You might say it is a player friendly rule so why should every casino make this rule available?
My answer is simple. It is a player friendly rule only to those players who know the very simple surrender basic strategy and the number of those players is so so small, that the hoards of people who play it wrong make surrender a profit center for those few casinos that offer it.

I have never surrendered in a casino where some other player then follows my lead and begins to surrender. You watch, and they will surrender 12-16 vs8, and 9 with no indices. The other day, rather than split his 6,6, I witnessed a guy surrender it to a 7. The mistakes made by making surrender available can be totally laughable, such as a recent surrender of 2,4 to an 8.

For some people if you deal them anything less than 18 that is not a total of 9,10 or 11, they want to just get half their money back.

ihate17

[zengrifter]

Originally Posted by Mimosine

someone on here said they'd rather play H17 LS, than S17 NS...

YEs. LS is much stronger for the counter than the BSer. zg

[Automatic Monkey]

Originally Posted by Mimosine

I love late surrender.

I used it extensively last night, only when called for and it probably saved me 4-5 units over the course of 3 hours of play. I really can't believe how powerful it is sometimes and dread the day of playing without it. I also can't believe how noone where i play knows how to use it. this glaring error played itself out countless times as people hit 16's against 10's and lost.

and time and again when i surrended the dealer had a pat hand.

someone on here said they'd rather play H17 LS, than S17 NS... deep down i kinda agreed with that, having used LS a couple dozen times now, i'm the most devout believer!

Yes, run the sims and you will believe even more. LS is actually a little more powerful against an H17 game than S17, because the advantage that the dealer gets from H17, you take a little bit of it back when you surrender against an ace. Learn the indices for 16 vs. 8, 14 and 15 vs. 9/10/A,, 13 vs. 10, 88 vs. 10.

It's amazing, even an unskilled player with the correct Basic Strategy card will screw up surrender

[Mimosine]

Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey

Yes, run the sims and you will believe even more. LS is actually a little more powerful against an H17 game than S17, because the advantage that the dealer gets from H17, you take a little bit of it back when you surrender against an ace. Learn the indices for 16 vs. 8, 14 and 15 vs. 9/10/A,, 13 vs. 10, 88 vs. 10.

It's amazing, even an unskilled player with the correct Basic Strategy card will screw up surrender

i thought it was you who was the fan of LS - but didn't want to misquote you. i've learn the indicies for 16, 15, and 14. i'll probably not get many chances to play 13, and that pesky 88 will take some time to percolate in, but 14-16 is obvious, after having looked at a few books, i have a picture of the chart in my mind, and basically how it spreads with the count. everytime i think about it, it makes so much sense. playing with KO all those surrender plays come in at the same count, otherwise i'd be a goner!!!

[EasyRhino]

Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey

Learn the indices for 16 vs. 8, 14 and 15 vs. 9/10/A,, 13 vs. 10, 88 vs. 10.

Would these all be at a TC of +4 or higher? That makes things simpler in KO land.

[Automatic Monkey]

Originally Posted by EasyRhino

Would these all be at a TC of +4 or higher? That makes things simpler in KO land.

Not sure. But here's an approximation, expressed relative to indices you already know:

15 vs. 10, 88 vs. 10- Surrender wherever you would stand on 16 vs. 10.

14 vs. 10, 15 vs. 9 (and 15 vs. A in S17)- Surrender wherever you would stand on 12 vs. 2.

16 vs. 8, 14 vs. 9, 14 vs. A- Surrender wherever you would stand on 15 vs. 10.