Question about Hi-Lo, Why Ace = -1

[humonstick]

Card counting is mainly to know when there is a large sum of high cards like ten value cards are still in the deck waiting to be played right. For Hi-Lo counting system, I don't understand why we should label a Ace as -1, because Ace doesn't help the dealer bust at all. Even worst, it helps the dealer to reach to the safe zone alot easier. Am I not understanding something here?

I'm thinking to modify the the Hi-Lo system by counting Ace as 0 and replace 9 with -1, so it will be +1(2-6), 0 (A,7,8), -1(9,10,J,Q,K). If i counts the card like this, is it ok or the original Hi-Lo system is much better?

Or maybe i should forget the Hi-Lo system and learn another system that is alot better but not too difficult to master?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by humonstick

For Hi-Lo counting system, I don't understand why we should label a Ace as -1, because Ace doesn't help the dealer bust at all. Even worst, it helps the dealer to reach to the safe zone alot easier. Am I not understanding something here?

It's tricky because the ace can work as both a high (11) and low (1) card. The reason it is counted as a high card is because it gives you the 3:2 payoff when you get a blackjack. The ace is the most important card in the deck so we want to keep it together with the tens.

Although technically the correct answer is "Because it has a negative effect of removal."

-Sonny-

[Automatic Monkey]

Originally Posted by humonstick

Card counting is mainly to know when there is a large sum of high cards like ten value cards are still in the deck waiting to be played right. For Hi-Lo counting system, I don't understand why we should label a Ace as -1, because Ace doesn't help the dealer bust at all. Even worst, it helps the dealer to reach to the safe zone alot easier. Am I not understanding something here?

I'm thinking to modify the the Hi-Lo system by counting Ace as 0 and replace 9 with -1, so it will be +1(2-6), 0 (A,7,8), -1(9,10,J,Q,K). If i counts the card like this, is it ok or the original Hi-Lo system is much better?

Or maybe i should forget the Hi-Lo system and learn another system that is alot better but not too difficult to master?

An ace is a high card in all ace-reckoning systems. Counting it helps you a lot more than it hurts you, mostly because of the 3:2 BJ payoff as Sonny explained but for a few other reasons too:

1) More soft doubles. These are lucrative hands for the player, and is one of the ways a player can use the ace but not the dealer.

2) Better conversion on your hard doubles. Although a 10 is much better in general, when you DD on 10, 9 or 8 an ace is the best thing you can get. And you tend to do more hard doubles when you have a lot of money down.

3) Better results on your splits, especially splits of 8, 9 and 10.

4) The benefit of being able to draw on A7 and A6. In an H17 game the dealer draws on A6 too, which is why the value of an ace in the shoe to a player is greater in S17 than in H17.

Also, the ace isn't always a good card for the dealer. It's good for him to be dealt on either of his first 2 cards, but if he is drawing, and he has a 11-15, drawing an ace will only turn his hand into a stiff or a worse stiff. If you are in the business of ace steering, and you see the dealer has a 9 or 10 showing, steering an ace to his hand is a good idea because it will usually make his hand worse.

[EasyRhino]

Originally Posted by humonstick

For Hi-Lo counting system, I don't understand why we should label a Ace as -1, because Ace doesn't help the dealer bust at all.

That's a big negative. Aces are a huge advantage for the player, mainly for the extra blackjack payoff, but also because it makes it harder for the player to bust as well. Check into "ace sequencing" for the seemingly insane lengths that people will go to do get an ace in their hand. And sure, aces are good if the dealer gets them, but so are tens.

The primary effect of counting is to get a good bet on the felt when you have the advantage before any cards are dealt. This is why the aces are so important. The secondary effect is to modify your playing decisions after the initial cards have been dealt. Here the A is more like a small card, which is why some counts have side counts of aces.

[Cardcounter]

Here is how the high low count works when you see a 2,3,4,5,6=+1 7,8,9=0 10,J,Q,K,A's=-1. When an Ace leaves the deck you get less blackjacks, less double down opprtunitys, and less splitting of the most profitable split pair in the deck. All of these things favor the player and not the dealer. Lets take a blackjack for instance both you and the dealer have the same chance of getting a blackjack no matter what the count but you will have different results so lets say you are betting a $100 hand on two hands you get a blackjack on one hand and the next hand the dealer gets a blackjack what is the result? You are $50 ahead of the dealer because of the bonus payout on blackjack!
Double down are a bit more complicated in the mathitics of them especially because you are only restricted to one hit. But using proper double down stragedy makes you win more than just hitting it out.
Why are tens important for you to win well lets say you get a 16 and the dealer is showing a 6 you have the option of standing. If the dealer than turns over a 16 he does not have the option of standing and must take a hit till he get to 17 or busts. If he has to hit a 16 with a deck that is loaded with 10's he will probably bust!
Let's take the opposite situation you being a basic stragedy player are dealt a 15 vs a 6 so you stand and no the deck is loaded with a lot of low cards the dealer now turns over his 16 and hits a 5 the dealer than beats everybody!

[Kasi]

Originally Posted by humonstick

is it ok? or the original Hi-Lo system is much better?

No it's not and yes it is lol.

Like everyone said, counting it allows you to bet the right amount.

Maybe you can see that if 24 5's came out and 24 A's came out, if you don't count the aces, you'd think you had a huge positive count and bet alot of money with no chance to get a BJ or a soft double.

If I were starting over I'd probably learn the simpler KO system. Might be good for you rather than hi-lo.