starting a team

[bluewhale]

okay guys, its finally happening! i've got together a bunch of friends to start a team.
say we have 4 ppl who can do hi/low perfectly, including ill 18.
15k roll

i'm thinking we'll have to do a big player strategy, with a max bet of $400. i think the ror is about 2 or 3% with that size of bet, and, if so, that is acceptable. we'd have the spotters min betting ($5-$25, and the bp plays TC=2, $100, 3=200, 4=300, 5=>400, also we can go to two hands at any point if available). also a question, say we have 4 spotters and 1 GBP, at what TC shld we call in the GBP? say now we have 3 spotters and 1 BP, what count do we call in the BP?

proposed payment plan for ppl:
70% to investors
30% to players

investors divide the profits by percent of investment into the roll
players divide the profit by percent of total amount of hours that they played.

every so often (1 month or something) we make the payouts.

theres 5 ppl in all, one is just an investor, 2 investors are counters, and there are two counters who are not investing.


a side question, obviously the BP will be getting a lot of stuff comped... would it be really bad if the spotters stayed in the same room as the BP? do we all have to live in seperate rooms at the casino? the plan right now is to just do day trips and never speak to each other in the casino.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by bluewhale

i'm thinking we'll have to do a big player strategy, with a max bet of $400.

Why is that? It seems like having 5 people all spreading $25-$400 would make more than 1 player spreading $100-$400. A big problem with the BP strategy is that only one person is actually earning money and he has to split it with the rest of the team. Having everyone play separately will get you much more action per hour and much more profit. Plus, having only one BP will probably bring him lots of heat as opposed to 5 guys always pulling the pit bosses in different directions.

Originally Posted by bluewhale

say we have 4 spotters and 1 GBP, at what TC shld we call in the GBP? say now we have 3 spotters and 1 BP, what count do we call in the BP?

You should work out what TC to enter the shoe first, then figure out the BP:Spotter ratio. If your BP is coming in at +3 then you will need to have more spotters in order to keep him busy since the frequency of +3 TCs is smaller than +2s. If you use +2 then you might get away with fewer spotters and upgrade one of them to a BP, which will make more money.

Originally Posted by bluewhale

every so often (1 month or something) we make the payouts.

I think that’s waaaaay too soon to distribute winnings. You will have problems because the fluctuations over one month can still be wild. There will be many times when the team loses money and only the investors have to absorb the loss. Meanwhile the players are getting paid every time you win and not suffering at all when you lose. Essentially they are getting a “free roll” at the investor’s expense.

Instead you should set a time limit that will give the team a reasonable chance to overcome the variance before making the payouts. Maybe use a quarterly system. Or maybe something like “After 200 hours of play we break the bank.” Find a time limit that, under your playing conditions, will give you a comfortable chance of realizing a profit.

Originally Posted by bluewhale

a side question, obviously the BP will be getting a lot of stuff comped... would it be really bad if the spotters stayed in the same room as the BP? do we all have to live in seperate rooms at the casino? the plan right now is to just do day trips and never speak to each other in the casino.

I would avoid it whenever possible. The casinos have plenty of cameras in the hallways, restaurants and parking garages. If you are playing for decent stakes then you don’t want them putting you guys together as a team.

-Sonny-

[SystemsTrader]

I just ran a sim and your team will be in tough with only 15k. With a $400 max bet your ror will be very high plus on top of that you will have four spotters playing and also adding to your risk. If the spotters are playing at $25 min tables you won't be in business very long. Plus your hourly win rate won't be high enough for 5 people to be worth your time. It will be lower than minimum wage.

[moo321]

Use back-counting spotters as much as possible. It's your call on the room situation; you'll save money, but you could get made as a team.

[bluewhale]

Originally Posted by Sonny

Why is that? It seems like having 5 people all spreading $25-$400 would make more than 1 player spreading $100-$400. A big problem with the BP strategy is that only one person is actually earning money and he has to split it with the rest of the team. Having everyone play separately will get you much more action per hour and much more profit. Plus, having only one BP will probably bring him lots of heat as opposed to 5 guys always pulling the pit bosses in different directions.

okay you lost me here, i was under the impression that the BP strategy was used to AVOID HEAT. you're saying that it gets even more heat???? i guess you're going to argue that its only beneficial when ppl are putting up really big bets, several thousand $. So if ppl are in agreement that the 4 of us will get less heat counting and spreading individually, then i'll do that, but i just don't see how that can be the case.

another question, how do 4 ppl spreading 25-400 make more than with a BP? isn't it the same thing? i mean the only difference is that instead of them making the big bet on a high count, the BP does it. i understand that there will be some loss due to overlapping highcounts (ie if two tables go hot, the BP can only be at one of them). so yeah, 4 ppl spreading individually will make slightly more, but not a great deal more i don't think.

btw, thanks for the other info, it confirmed a lot of what i had in the back of my head. i think we'll distribute the money after 200 hrs of collective time, i.e. after the addition of all our hours is 200.


@systemstrader
the risk i got was about 5%? am i way off here?
the spotters will be playing loser than 25, probably 10-15 mainly, but 25 min occasionally. like moo suggested, the backcounting spotter would be ideal, but i just don't know how long you can do that.
finally, how the hell do you figure less than min wage??? say one person spreading 25-400 shld be making about 55/hr, so in our case shldn't we each be making that? so the team would make 220/hr no? what hourly wage do you get and how did you come up with it?


i tried to use this to get my hourly wage, someone said the password was '100' sometime ago, but it doesn't work anymore, http://www.card-counting.com/cvcxonlineviewer.htm

[EasyRhino]

The "100" promotional password expired at the end of '06.

$400 max bet seems like an overbet to me. Looks like double-Kelly or more, unless team dynamics change it radically.

I am very ignorant on team play, but it seems that the only reason you'd want to use BP strategy is if a $200-$400 attracts prohibitive heat in the venue which you're playing. However, if it's a joint that doesn't sweat the action, then having multiple counters working more traditionally (play-all or solo wonging), might be more effective. It would also allow players to play in shifts.

Also, doing $25 to $400 is only a 16x spread. There are solo players that do that as a matter of course (easiest with red chips, but that's not the point). The advantage of BP play would see to be to get REALLY large effective spreads?

[zengrifter]

Originally Posted by bluewhale

okay you lost me here, i was under the impression that the BP strategy was used to AVOID HEAT. you're saying that it gets even more heat???? i guess you're going to argue that its only beneficial when ppl are putting up really big bets, several thousand $. So if ppl are in agreement that the 4 of us will get less heat counting and spreading individually, then i'll do that, but i just don't see how that can be the case.

Under certain circumstances the BP ruse will get less heat, but its really for much bigger bets than a 15k BR. AND if all 4 teammates are proficient counters, the hourly EV of for counters is MUCH HIGHER if they each play seperately - the BR will double much faster. zg

Ps, and the max-max-bet would not exceed 2hands of 100, to start.

[moo321]

Everyone else seems to think solo counters is better, but I'm not sure. If you have several players spreading their bets, your risk is going to be bigger. If you have several players all back-counting, your risk is better, but if you're all playing at the same place, people are going to get paranoid. And if you play at different places, you're not getting to share gas costs and comps.

Depending on where you go, Friday and Saturday nights are often good for a back-counting approach. You could probably play as a team for an hour or so using only back counters without anyone noticing. Maybe try back-counting for 45 minutes, then jump into a table on a good count and stay for an hour or so.

[zengrifter]

Originally Posted by moo321

If you have several players spreading their bets, your risk is going to be bigger.

Why do you say that? zg


.

[moo321]

I guess I should be more specific. I meant that several players using the "headstone" technique will have higher variance than a back-counting approach with a big player, because the headstone technique simply has higher variance.