Does the gambling public have the right to know?

[Ronnie]

I've touched on this in several of my posts about the Shufflemaster Blackjack Machine but it also applies to machines that play other card games such as video poker.

Here goes.

Does the gambling public, who supports the industry, have a right to know whether the cards behave strictly randomly or whether the machines are programmed to rig the cards at the outset or alter them during play to achieve a predetermined result favoring the casino?

I am not asking whether the public has the right to examine the source code of the programs. The answer to that is no. I assume that legally would fall under the category of trade secrets.

I am asking whether the public has the right to be told by those in charge simply whether the game is fair or whether the outcome may either be predetermined like most slot machines or may be altered at will if the machines determines it has been paying off too much.

My understanding is in the case of most slot machines (such as the ones with the bars) the display looks legitimate but the exact sequence to be predetermined before the wheels start turning.

In the case of legitimate table games (with live dealers) the outcome is not predetermined.

What I am not sure of is whether the blackjack machines play like legitimate table games (with nothing altered behind the scenes to assure a casino win) or whether they play like most slot machines (where cards can be rigged to assure that result).

Example: you are playing one of these machines and are dealt a 10 and a 2 versus a 6.

You stand with your stiff 12. That is what basic strategy says you should do.

The dealer has a 10 in the hole, for a total of stiff-16.

The next card the dealer is supposed to reveal is a 10, which would break "him."

Will the dealer in that case -- and every similar case -- deal the 10 and accept the loss?.

Or .....

Is the machine programmed to (at whim) bypass the fatal 10 and instead give the dealer any card which would make the dealer's hand (ace though 5) and thus make the dealer a winner?

I am hoping that someone who posts here actually knows a little about these machines and how they work. My gut feeling though is that if someone knows about any hanky-panky that exists that I and others here will not find such information in a post.

But I still feel it's worth a shot.

The big question again is whether they play a "legit" game or whether they are rigged.

Of course my main question here -- the subject of this thread -- is whether the gambling public has the right to know which is truly the case.

I assume that several people avoid these games because they do not think the machines are on the up-and-up.

I would think that if the machines are strictly on the up-and-up and if that is the law then that should be publicized. The skeptics might then be inclined to try them out.

On the other hand, I suppose that if it became known that the machines are not playing legitimately and are rigging the cards (and even a single instance of rigging would make the game fraudulent in my view) that the number of players would drop appreciably.

As I get set to post this message I must tell you that though there is a chance that someone here knows the answer to my questions I am not terribly optimistic of a definitive reply, unless the reply is "happy-days-are-here-again-flat-out" that the machines play total legitimately and are required by law to do so.

Still I figure "nothing ventured, nothing gained" and hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised.

Thanks in advance for your input on this.

[shadroch]

Perhaps I'm being niave,but I don't believe there is a Casino Control Board around that would allow the scenerio you bring up.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by shadroch

Perhaps I'm being niave,but I don't believe there is a Casino Control Board around that would allow the scenerio you bring up.

Not sure if I understand what you are saying.

Are you suggesting that the machines by law must play legitimately (like human table games) rather than playing like a slot machine (with predetermined results)?

[shadroch]

Yes.
I believe a machine that shuffles cards for a table game can't do anything other than shuffle cards.If it were to somehow decide which hands were winners and losers,it would be classified as a Video Lottery Machine.
Even a machine like Mindplay,which tracks and records the value of each card as it comes out of the shoe can't signal to skip a certain card.Even if it could decide to skip a ten,how would it know if that ten would make or break the player?

[Mimosine]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Not sure if I understand what you are saying.

Are you suggesting that the machines by law must play legitimately (like human table games) rather than playing like a slot machine (with predetermined results)?

last i read, slots DO NOT have predetermined results. each pull of the lever triggers a new random number to be generated, this number determines the outcome of each and every pull without reference to how much you bet, how long you've been sitting, or how long since someone won a jackpot on it.

[shadroch]

Its a matter of semantics,I think. Ronnie is saying that slot machines have a built in pay-rate,where it will return X percent of the money cycled thru it. So while an individual hand isn't pre-determined,the end results are.

[Mimosine]

Originally Posted by shadroch

Its a matter of semantics,I think. Ronnie is saying that slot machines have a built in pay-rate,where it will return X percent of the money cycled thru it. So while an individual hand isn't pre-determined,the end results are.

i didn't pick up on that when i read it. my fault.

[GeorgeD]

Originally Posted by shadroch

Its a matter of semantics,I think. Ronnie is saying that slot machines have a built in pay-rate,where it will return X percent of the money cycled thru it. So while an individual hand isn't pre-determined,the end results are.

I thought he means that when you press "spin", slot machines immediately generate random numbers that decide if you will win. Spinning the reels is then purely as entertainment .. and to make the player think they are relevant. I would guess the "pay rate" is built in by programming what % of numbers will result in what win.

So the question is do video BJ or Poker play the same way, or do they put a simulated deck in a queue and whatever "card" comes out next is delt regardless of yours or the dealer's hand. This would be more like a regular table game.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by GeorgeD

I thought he means that when you press "spin", slot machines immediately generate random numbers that decide if you will win. Spinning the reels is then purely as entertainment .. and to make the player think they are relevant. I would guess the "pay rate" is built in by programming what % of numbers will result in what win.

So the question is do video BJ or Poker play the same way, or do they put a simulated deck in a queue and whatever "card" comes out next is delt regardless of yours or the dealer's hand. This would be more like a regular table game.

Yes, you stated it as well as (and maybe even better than) I did!

That is the question, along with my general question of whether the gambling public has the right to know which whether that is the case.

Pennsylvania does not allow live table games but does allow the "virtual" electronic table games.

The rationale seems to be because the virtual games are considered slot machines, even though they are different from most in that five players are playing the same machine at once.

But slot machines, as I understand them, often have predetermined results and the spins are just window-dressing.

I would like to think that the virtual machines are as legitimate as the live table games but at this point I really don't know if that is the case.

Obviously the people who wrote the programs for the machines and I assume the members of the gaming commission and some casino personnel know the true story.

As far as I know the information has not been made available to the public.

There's just a lot of speculation.

Someone knows the answer!!!

I'm hoping to find that unequivocal true story on this forum.

I'm also hoping to work on my second million dollars but that has yet to happen! LOL

[EasyRhino]

Proper video blackjack and poker games really do use a virtual deck. Each next card is randombly selected from the deck, and seen or held cards cannot be drawn again. Proper video BJ machines get their edge because the payout for a blackjack is only 1:1, among other crappy rules.

My understanding is that the digital blackjack machines (at least the ones in vegas) use the same rules and deck as regular blackjack.

It's only when you get into weird slots-only jurisdictions (NY State racinos, etc) that you bump into video lottery terminals where the output is predetermined before you draw cards (and the payout blows).

Easy way to test with a video blackjack machine has a completely predetermined result or not. Just keep drawing more cards no matter what your hand, you'll either lose your money very quickly, or draw to 21 almost half the time.