First steps to ap

[blackchipjim]

I have been reading the context of the recent threads being posted. I've noticed alot of the threads are asking basic questions about counting in general. I not trying to steer people away from this site but geez doesn't anyone read books anymore. I wouldn't walk into a algebrae class and ask questions if I didn't know basic math. If anyone wants advice, great there is a alot of good advice on this site from alot of good aps but you should pick up a few books that give you the basics and practice what you read. There is a few threads here that dealt with what books to read. Am I alone with this thought or what?

[EasyRhino]

Well, I originally found this site a few years ago when I googled "basic strategy" after hearing about it on TV, so I was a total noob then.

I didn't bother with the forums, or with even thinking about card-counting, at the time.

[Mimosine]

I'm a big fan of RTFM or more nicely Read The Manual first (maybe RTMF ) then ask questions. For me the best is people who want to learn KO but REFUSE to buy the $13 book.

I'm an amateur at best, but at least I've read a few BJ books and i prefer to get the basics under control before coming on here and asking specifics or things that piqued my curiosity durring study.

FYI: i've read: KO-Blackjack, BJBluebook II, Blackjack Attack, Play BJ like the Pros, Beat the Dealer, UBZII, and for fun Bringing Down the House. The bare minimum people should read before asking questions is BJBluebook II, even if they only read the first 6 or so chapters (less than 100 pages, and a fast easy read at that with a ton of basic and intermediate information). Or at the very least read 5 or 6 links from the great "Free counting resources on the Web" link. Or USE THE DAMN SEARCH FEATURE

[eps6724]

Not to disagree about reading, but one thing this site has helped ME in is to avoid a lot of-shall we say-trash books. I was (and still am) more than willing to learn and search things out myself, but there IS a lot of stuff out there that I NOW know is crap.

I am not defending anyone asking any questions, because I DO think that there are times that all we need is someone willing to point us in the right direction. And really, how many of us knew what questions to ask to keep from getting sucked into a get-rich-quick-this-is-a-piece-of-cake scheme?

When I ask questions, all I really want to know is where to start-or, to see if someone else has the same questions and might already have the answer. Sort of like NOT re-inventing the wheel!

Just my thoughts!
-EPS

[blackchipjim]

I would agree that everyone has different ways of obtaining information. I just wondered why some of the posters seem to have limited knowledge of the game itself. I'm not ragging on them just wondered if they bother to read any books first. I myself still reread books and glean information that I understand better the next time I go to use it. I also use the books for refference source. blackchipjim

[halcyon1234]

When I found the site, I was at the stage of "okay, I know about +1 -1 and that, but what do I actually DO with the count". Rather than posting a question I knew was either: a) extremely basic or b) extremely secret, I read through the rest of the board. Needless to say, my questions were answered, and I was left with knowledge and some real questions.

Not everyone is going to do this. The reasons are many-- aren't good at digging for information, not used to forums, impatient, ill informed, etc, etc, etc.

So they ask. The users have made themselves available to be asked questions, with the caveat that they aren't obligated in any way to answer. It's a discussion group, not a service.

Most of the questions asked can be answered by the asked themselves. The information is there, they just need to put in the effort to find it. A forum, after all, is not a good place for long-term storage and organization of data. There are steps that can be taken to make the basic information more easily accessible-- but is that desirable?

People put up FAQs, wikis, documents, and how-tos all the time, for information people are commonly looking for. Baking, car repair, computer maintenance, and so forth. All skilled knowledge in one way or the other, but knowledge so common and desired that people would rather put it out there than having to be available to be asked.

Do APs want that? APing seems to have a-- hrm-- layer of semi-transparent secrecy about it. Let's admit it, card counting is no secret. Everyone's heard of it. Many know the details of it. Some know how to do it. Given the amount of new users who ask questions, there's an ongoing desire to learn about it. And given the number of helpful APs here, there's a desire to teach about it.

Where's the balance. At one end, you have a fully open forum with APs freely giving out answers to any questions asked of any user, new or old. On the other end of the continuum, you have a locked, invite only forum where only vetted proteges are allowed, and information isn't shared outside of the community. Where on that line would the community like to fall?

I understand the need for some discretion. HiLo isn't a secret. The casinos know about it. Everyone knows about it. To a lesser extent, so is holecard strategy (play deviations, sloppy dealers), and card tracking (deck estimation, neat dealers). As for the "secret" stuff-- well, any technique sufficiently advance to garner a huge advantage with minimal effort probably should be kept a secret until such point as the casinos diminish the gains-- at which point it should be thrown into the public knowledge pool so others can get what they can from it-- or improve it to secrecy again.

Keep in mind, though, security through obscurity doesn't work. If you can think it and do it, it can be discovered again-- by another AP, or by the casino security team reviewing their tapes. Just not talking about it isn't a foolproof way to stay hidden.

Personally, I think the site should have a wiki on it that covers (at least) the basics. Articles about card counting, Thorpe, primers on the different systems, reviews on the books (good and bad), definitions of advanced plays, and so forth. This information has already been discussed ad nausium over and over. Rather than post it again for the next noob, put it together from forum postings and user input, and have a permanent, managed reference.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by halcyon1234

Personally, I think the site should have a wiki on it that covers (at least) the basics. Articles about card counting, Thorpe, primers on the different systems, reviews on the books (good and bad), definitions of advanced plays, and so forth. This information has already been discussed ad nausium over and over. Rather than post it again for the next noob, put it together from forum postings and user input, and have a permanent, managed reference.

Like a sticky thread called "FREE COUNTING RESOURCES ON WEB" in the card counting forum?

-Sonny-

[NDN21]

But what books to read? That's the question right there that this forum answers.

And some are forgetting one thing, books cost money while this website is free!

Actually the noobs are following the correct process by coming here (or other websites) FIRST.

The web has replaced the library as the first step in researching a subject. In that context the noobs are performing correctly, searching the web first then seeking other avenues of information.

[Mimosine]

Originally Posted by NDN21

And some are forgetting one thing, books cost money while this website is free!

i politely disagree. spending $20-40 on books is affordable to anyone who OWNS a computer and PAYS an equivalent amount per month for internet access. With an exception being for a poor college student who is using a lab computer to post here. either way if you can't scrape together $30 for some used BJ books then you don't have enough money to be going to a casino in the first place.

As an example, if one spent $13-20 on KO blackjack (or a KISS3, or a HiLO book), and maybe $5-15 on decks of playing cards - if they were so inclinded that would be all they would need to get started. no these things wouldn't answer all the necessary questions for every single person, but if you're interested in ap BJ even as a hobby 'investing' $30 is really quite reasonable. furthermore, i really can't understand why someone who is really eager to learn this stuff wouldn't be willing to do a little research on their own - even if it wasn't free.

[MEDITANK]

well said Mim. U da man.