Wheel CSM's - delay

[dacium]

I was recently at a casino trying to figure out the delay in a csm when it jammed and I got to see inside. Now I was lucky because it jammed when a card was being inserted into the wheel, yet it was extracting a card at the same time from the other end of the wheel.

The wheel had about 50 (i couldn't cound them) compartments. It seems each compartment can hold at most about 8 cards. Cards are always inserted into the top of the compartment, and always removed from the bottom of a compartment. The compartment to insert/remove from is randomly picked (I assume)

However, since there are on average 312/50 = 6ish cards per compartment, then there are at least 5 other cards that come out before a card that is fed in. Also since a compartment is picked randomly, there is very high chance that cards do not re-appear until at least on average the majority of compartments have been pulled with 5 cards. In other words the delay seems extremely large.

I tend to think that the CSM's still largely clump cards. In that when a hand is played out, all those cards goto the top of random comparments, and thus each card will not appear until at least 5 other cards have come out.

Does anyone have links to tech documents that might have exactally how many compartments the machines have and how many cards fit in each one? That way we could work out the distribution and work out how deep you can count and what probability that count is of being accurate.

For example if you have just counted 6 hands that total to say 60 cards, the chance of any of those cards being in the next hand is still extremely small, because one compartment out of 50 would have to have been accessed 6-8 times over.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by dacium

Does anyone have links to tech documents that might have exactally how many compartments the machines have and how many cards fit in each one? That way we could work out the distribution and work out how deep you can count and what probability that count is of being accurate.

Search through the Advanced Techniques forum for more info. Here's a good start:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2312

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=6365

-Sonny-

[bigbjfan]

Dacium,

You've asked about CMS latency and I will tell you my experience. In my observations, I have seen consistant, trackable latency MOST of the time. In my experience, it is accurate about 70% of the time. I've been collecting CSM tracking data over the past 4 months consisting of several trips to the casino just observing/tracking without ever placing a bet. In the next couple weeks, I will be actually placing some small bets based on my observations and report back how I do. This is probably a long shot, maybe even a little cutting edge on my techniques, but it may pay off.

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

Originally Posted by dacium

I was recently at a casino trying to figure out the delay in a csm when it jammed and I got to see inside. Now I was lucky because it jammed when a card was being inserted into the wheel, yet it was extracting a card at the same time from the other end of the wheel.

The wheel had about 50 (i couldn't cound them) compartments. It seems each compartment can hold at most about 8 cards. Cards are always inserted into the top of the compartment, and always removed from the bottom of a compartment. The compartment to insert/remove from is randomly picked (I assume)

However, since there are on average 312/50 = 6ish cards per compartment, then there are at least 5 other cards that come out before a card that is fed in. Also since a compartment is picked randomly, there is very high chance that cards do not re-appear until at least on average the majority of compartments have been pulled with 5 cards. In other words the delay seems extremely large.

I tend to think that the CSM's still largely clump cards. In that when a hand is played out, all those cards goto the top of random comparments, and thus each card will not appear until at least 5 other cards have come out.

Does anyone have links to tech documents that might have exactally how many compartments the machines have and how many cards fit in each one? That way we could work out the distribution and work out how deep you can count and what probability that count is of being accurate.

For example if you have just counted 6 hands that total to say 60 cards, the chance of any of those cards being in the next hand is still extremely small, because one compartment out of 50 would have to have been accessed 6-8 times over.

but isnt it shuffling the cards at the same time? that would be weird if all it does is put 6 cards in 50 dif compartments, as thats not shuffling really

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by SilentBob420BMFJ

that would be weird if all it does is put 6 cards in 50 dif compartments, as thats not shuffling really

That's exactly what they do, although the number of compartments may vary from model to model. Technically it is not shuffling but it is randomizing the cards to a certain degree. A human shuffle really doesn’t randomize the cards much at all, but since most people don’t take advantage of that fact the casino doesn’t have to worry about it. It is “random enough” to fool their players. The CSMs are the same way.

-Sonny-

[ThodorisK]

Dacium,

I have played a lot with these machines. I won overall, assuming some delay, but forget about the assumption of this delay, lets concentrate on the exact procudure. I have read some articles that claim that the opposite of this delay is happening, i.e. that the cards dealt most recently will come again in the next hand, because (according to these articles) the cards are inserted and extracted from the same side of the shelves.

Are you certain that the new cards are inserted at one particular side of the shelves, and they are extracted from the opposite side of the shelves?

Can we be certain that the cards are always inserted at the same side of the shelves, or that they are extracted from the same side of the shelves?
Or is it possible for this to happen alternatively?

Can we also be certain that they are never extracted from the middle of the shelves?

[ThodorisK]

Oh, I read the threads mentioned above, and they say that the whole content of one shelf is unloaded to the dealing door.

[Cardcounter]

Lets say that you are playing CSM machine with six decks and the dealer doesn't feed them back into the machine at best it would be like playing a shoe with a 5 deck cut off giving you only 1 deck of penetration there is almost no way that you could be a mathimatical winner. At best you would get a true count of plus 1 or 2 at plus 1 the game is break even. A true count of plus 2 would be extremly rare. When renzey ran simulations for a 1 to 2 deck cut a card counters result where much better with a 1 deck cut off.

[blackchipjim]

If you are mechanically inclined and want to research the machine do the patent search. I went to the patent search site and typed up csm machine and it gives you the blue prints and theory of operation. It 's pretty accurate in explaing the working of the machine. blackchipjim

[ThodorisK]

You mean this site? :
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20050206077.html