Introduction from an AP wannabe

[BJWinner]

Hello Everyone! I'm a college student from NJ and I've taken an interest in BJ. My goal is to become a serious AP, playing 2 or more days a week. Because I live less than an hour from AC, I will be playing the low min, 8D games to start with.

So far, I've read Blackbelt in BJ, Professional BJ, Knock-Out BJ, and BJ Your way to Riches. I bought 8 decks, a shoe, a felt mat, and a case of chips to practice with. I also plan to buy the CV BJ game. I've already memorized BS and I'm deciding on a counting system (there's so many!). I've taken a lot of consideration in choosing a counting system and I want to choose one that I will be using for a long time instead of starting at level 1 and moving up. For me difficulty is not a factor. I have strong math skills and aced statistics and calculus in college. Because I'll be playing in 8D games, I feel that I need a very accurate count with a high BC. That said, I think Wong's Halves count would be a good decision. I don't mind doing the extra work and I like the challenge. Before starting, though, I'd appreciate any advice or opinions about this decision. I've read a lot of threads, but rarely see anything about the halves count.

Aside from counting, I plan to Wong in and out of tables, follow Snyder's table conditions (SPI), and use a 1-12(or more) bet spread. Right now, I'm broke and looking for a job so I have plenty of time to drill and practice while I save for my BR. I have so many questions and so much to learn but, for now, I'll start with a few:

1) Is there any counting system that is more accurate than the halves count?

2) Is AC worth playing in, I've heard that most of the casinos have crappy rules because they cannot bar counters? Are there any other casinos on the east coast, not too far away, that have better rules?

3) I've read that the TC is neg or 0 75% of the time in a multi-deck game. Because there is so much flux in the 8D game, how can I Wong in and out without looking so suspicious? Am I going to be backcounting for several hours before I can sit down to a decent count?

Sorry for the long thread. Thank in advance to anyone who answers my questions.

P.S. Great Site!

[SystemsTrader]

Welcome to the world of AP. So you are about to tackle the eight deck monsters. Get ready for a grind with lots of variance and there is not a lot of money in this game if your bankroll is small. There is nothing wrong with using a level 1 count against the 8 deckers as they will get almost the same EV as level 2 or 3's. Although if you can handle the extra level than why not squeeze some extra money out of the game. I ran a quick sim and Halves is one of the better counts to use but there are 3 stronger counts you could use over Halves, they are:
1. Hi-Opt II(which is not practical against shoes)
2. Zen
3. AOII

[moo321]

You can and should be wonging 8 deck games. Wong aggresively, play short sessions in AC, and you can make some decent money, even with a smaller bankroll. But you need to be very aggressive with your play on 8 deck games.

[Kasi]

Originally Posted by BJWinner

Right now, I'm broke and looking for a job so I have plenty of time to drill and practice while I save for my BR.

Spend alot more time figuring how much bankroll u need to play what game exactly how with what risk u r willing to take for x dollars/hr.

After reading all those books what is ur current idea of just how much bankroll u r saving for? And at what spread for how u want to play what game?

Buy the software and forget about all that other stuff u bought if u want to practice. Utterly worthless for learning. Although hosting a BJ game for friends might be a good idea, albeit likely not legal. But potentially very profitable when u r the house.

A level 1 count is fine. Start there - it's easy enough to adjust later.

And after u figure out u probably want at least $10K, maybe even more, to make less than min wage, don't give up ur day job.

But don't be discouraged - it's just one person's opinion and I often seem to be the most negative.

Overall, my best advice is, if u have to ask for advice, ur probably not ready. Figure it out urself so u have faith in ur skills and bets etc.

[BJWinner]

Thanks for all your advice! I think I'll use the Zen count if it's more powerful than the halves. It looks a lot easier too

For my BR, I want to save at least $10K. The reason I bought all that stuff to practice with is to practice in areas with distractions (like in front of the TV). I don't expect to win millions, the main reason I want to be an AP is to master a skill and see the results, good or bad. Of course, I want to win some money too But I always expect the worst and hope for the best.

[EasyRhino]

I'd really recommend startign with Hi-lo, and making sure you have the mechanics down, including deck estimation and true count conversion (got a discard tray with all that other stuff?). Then you can move on to whatever fancypants count you want. The skills are easily transferable, so it's not like you'll be wasting time by learning the industry-standard count.

Backcounting is very inconspicous at lower bet levels and at big joints, the biggest problem is usually crowds. I think the longest I've gone backcounting without placing a bet was about 1.5/2 hours (which was crushingly boring)

[Brock Windsor]

Originally Posted by BJWinner

Hello Everyone! I'm a college student from NJ and I've taken an interest in BJ. My goal is to become a serious AP, playing 2 or more days a week. Because I live less than an hour from AC, I will be playing the low min, 8D games to start with.

I had similar ideas when I started counting and played the same game. Counting is a fundamental skill but if you're aspiring to be an AP from almost no BR you'll need other advantages. Find every freebie in every casino. When backcounting scope the dealers and note who makes payment errors, who flashes a hole card, check out games besides blackjack and try to figure out what additional information you need beyond perfect basic strategy to beat it. Can you spot a sloppy dealer? Great Pen? A biased roulette wheel? A slot machine in your favour? Cash in your chips to the attendant who looks most likely to make a payment error. Some may disagree with me but I think counting, using a big spread, and wonging is not enough to beat an 8deck game, your ROR on a small BR is just to great. But for recreational play if you just want to go on weekends and feel good because you're playing with a 0.4% edge over the house, learn a level one count, set loss limits and have fun with the game.
BW

[EyeHeartHalves]

I will try to give a response to everything thus far and it'll be mostly postitive...

Graduate of NJ college and over 2 hours away from AC. Never been to Vegas. I am a serious AP and play no more than two weekends per month in AC. Anything more will be detrimental to your longevity in that town as I feel my frequency is already becoming so. Low min. is fine to start with but you're gonna get pretty bored pretty fast. Might as well play Hold'em. Arnold Snyder's a great well-rounded player; Stanford Wong's the greatest mathematical player; I didn't learn a darn thing from Knock-Out BJ; and don't own BJ Your Way to Riches. You're missing two important titles--Million Dollar Blackjack (green hardback) by the Immortal Ken Uston and Burning the Tables in Las Vegas (red hardback) by the best psychological player, Ian Andersen. ($20 and a couple trips to eBay and/or Amazon.) You're missing something else from your toolbox--you need an old computer with Windows 98 and a mail order copy of Professional BJ Analyzer for Windows. This can be obtained from Wong's website but will cost a lot more than a Jackson. Hi-Lo is fine for Red Chipping in NJ but obviously, you should know what system I'm going to recommend for Green Chip status?

Tips on Halves:
Practice on the kitchen table with the chips and all but make sure you have the exact rules down pat and don't even attempt a running count until BS is burned into your brain. (How do you know when it is? Can write the entire thing down on scrap paper from 4 vs. 2 to the three different 18s vs. A without a single mistake? Then you've got it. Should be pretty easy for you.) Oh yea, after you get PBA, you'll discover that your BS is slightly wrong for AC 8-deck.
Note your hands played, shoe lengths, bankroll fluctuations and real time. This will help you slightly with the "confidence" angle that Andersen speaks of.
Don't try to count as fast as Ken Uston. Instead try to count quickly but with perfect accuracy and for extremely long periods of time. Simulated distractions are good but there's more to it than that in a casino. How? Try mal-nutrition, sleep deprevation, intoxication/dehydration, exhaustion, full bouls and especialy full bladder. Again, see Andersen.
Aced statistics, huh? Hope you can hold onto your basic statistics textbook or you may want to add Peter Griffin's The Theory of BJ to your repetroire. As good as you are at math, you're still human which means that "you think with words." The word 'negative' is a rather long word. I like 'minus' better, 'mi' best, and 'en' is bestest. Being human, you also don't see with your eyes, "You see with thoughts." I stoped seeing fives and tens and nines and threes and twos and eights long ago. I start from first base, after both cards are down and look for the largest absolute values. I haven't seen an eight in years, the 16s I've seen were soft 16s that equaled one half. So, look for the largest (theoretically--a splittable ten) and then start cancelling them out with the next largest or equal absolute values but oppesite sign.

Arnold's SPI doesn't really matter in AC because 67% of the 6-deck (of which there are only two) is only a little better than 75% of the 8-deck. However, if you're still planning on playing a lot of Red Chips, I'd pick one casino that gives decent comps (by AC standards--oh yea, Comp City by Max Rubin) like Resorts and just play the Hell out of em. I mean just play like you don't give a **** about heat, pit bosses come over--screw em. This will limit your exposure to just one casino. You must improve "your act" before hoppin all over the city. Better to burn out one casino in city of 13 than a whole city (for security purposes, that's means us, there's 13 but for equity purposes, there's 11. Oh, yea. DON'T PLAY IN SHOWBOAT OR WILD WILD WEST. OKAY, SPI DOES MATTER.)

As per your questions:

1) Nothing is more accurate than Halves for AC purposes. The other counts they're recommending may have slightly higher simulated "win rates" but that's not what we're conscerned with. We're concerned with "Standard Error per Edge Percentage per True Count." Wow, a mouthful, huh? Basically, when Wong says you got an edge, you got a freaking edge, Mo-Fo!

2) Yes, AC is worth playing in. What you may ask yourself someday--Is a $1,000 trip to Vegas without comps worth playing in? Common sense, right? But what If you lived in Vegas--wouldn't it be common sense that AC would suck? Of course it would. Take it from me. I make plenty of money in AC and I have no direct expenses. I just have to work harder than if I lived in Vegas. As for other east coast casinos, there are plenty but they all have the same or worse rules. In fact, none of these new casinos even have table games.

3) The TC is only bad 75% of the time if you play all hands which you've already said (wisely I might add) that you don't plan to do. You're worrying about the nature of the game itself here. Let Peter Griffin do that. We wanna make Mad Money. However, forget about Wonging in without a teammate (keep me in mind although I'm reluctant to join a team) is a waste of time. As for wonging out, civillians split all the time on the dime. However, (See Andersen again) they never leave after a net win. So, wong-out if the preceeding hand ended at or below a halves TC of -1 and you had a net loss or a push on that hand. Furthormore, (if you're a Green Chipper) never decrease your bet at all after a net win.

If you want to talk more... PSR2045and16@aol.com

[Knox]

If you can't move to Vegas how about Mississippi? Then you can choose from Biloxi, Tunica, and even Vicksburg. Plus there are $100 (each way) flights from Gulfport/Biloxi to Vegas and the cost of living is very low. The east coast bites for BJ, as far as I know. I don't plan to ever go to AC. 8D game is what you play if it's the only game in town and preferably with strong shuffle tracking skills and trackable shuffles. Absent that, I'd rather stay home and watch TV that stand around waiting to wong into 8D shoes, 6D being slightly better. These games are also vulnerable to team play, but if you are new you won't likely have the bankroll or connections for that.

AC would be adequate place to practice and decide if you really have the skills and dedication to be a full-time professional. If so, I would get the heck out of there as soon as you are able!

Just my $0.02, FWIW.

[BJWinner]

Thanks for answering ALL of my questions. It's nice to here from someone who's experienced what I plan to do. How long have you been playing (if you don't mind me asking)?

I started out going to the Wild Wild West (big mistake), but I stopped going when they changed the rules from S17 to H17. The last time I went, I went to Resorts, where I had the best game of my life, considering I'm not a counter yet. I got 4 BJ's in a row, split aces and got 21 on both, and I even got a few 5's after hitting 16's. I won $300 after 2 hrs of play. When I have a BR, I plan to go to the Borgata. I've heard they have the best BJ games.

Did you start with Hi-Lo or did you go straight to the halves count?

Brock Windsor: Thanks for the interesting advice. Although I will be keeping an eye on the dealers, I think roulette and slots are for suckers.

Hi Knox: I wish I could move somewhere where the games are better, but I think my education is more important than gambling. Maybe in the future, I'll have enough money to travel the country (and outside) to find some great games.

I appreciate all of your responses.