Surrender

[cisco]

Hello everyone,

Where are some Vegas casino's that offer surrender? Not just Vegas either anywhere in the country. Thanks.

[Sonny]

There are far too many casinos to list here. You would be better off looking through some of the casino listings for this information.

One source is Wong's Current Blackjack News newsletter. You can either buy a subscription ($25 per quarter or $80 per year) or just get one issue for $12. A subscription to Trackjack.com will let you search for games with certain rules or in certain locations and has listing for all over the world for the same price. The other option is to use one of the less reliable but free websites:

http://blackjack.skister.com/
http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/vegas.html

-Sonny-

[cisco]

So surrender is still offered as a viable playing rule, then?

I thought it was going by the wayside because of an advantage to the player.

[ihate17]

Originally Posted by cisco

So surrender is still offered as a viable playing rule, then?

I thought it was going by the wayside because of an advantage to the player.

What we are talking about here is late surrender. Early surrender is not available I think in any U.S. casino. If played correctly it does give the player .07%. The thing is, every casino should offer late surrender because I believe well over 95% of those people who do surrender do it wrong over and over again. Based on the way I watch people surrender 12 vs 8 and things like that, they are not subtracting from the casino edge but adding to it.

Personally, I do not know how many of thousands of times I have played on a table where at first I am the only one who surrenders. Once I have surrendered something like a 16 to a dealer 10 and other players see that the dealer had a pat hand and I would not have won if I hit, some of them will start surrendering their 14 vs 7 etc. Yet the number of casinos who offer surrender has gone down probably because casinos are always looking for ways to increase their house edge.

ihate17

[21forme]

Originally Posted by ihate17

If played correctly it does give the player .07%.

This is true for the BS player, but for the counter it's somewhere between 0.2-0.3% because it will be used more with bigger bets and additional plays.

[cisco]

Thanks Sonny,

the wizard of odds link waqs very helpful.

[Bashful C. Stupid-Butt]

More info I was looking for.

Would also like to know table min and max.

I can see a few rules that have changed. I always thought dealer stands on any 17.

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

am i wrong to assume that the casinos that offer LS usually have H17? i think the reason why most casinos dont offer LS is because (im guessing here) the majority of people that use it are people who know what they are doing, whereas ploppies never give up

[Mimosine]

Originally Posted by SilentBob420BMFJ

am i wrong to assume that the casinos that offer LS usually have H17? i think the reason why most casinos dont offer LS is because (im guessing here) the majority of people that use it are people who know what they are doing, whereas ploppies never give up

part one: yes most places that have LS are H17.

part two: wrong, the majority of people using LS are ploppies and don't have a clue how to use it. see posts by ihate17 above. i've seen more people at the table play it wrong, than right. 16v10 is played right more often than not, but i've seem plenty of people h or s on 16v10 AND surrender other hands.

i've seen people surrender hands of 7 and 8 vs. dealer 7.

LS is a win win situation for the casino, i can't believe they are so stupid. most people don't use it - so it doesn't hurt their edge AT ALL. then of those that do, they give up a bigger edge to the house, that the edge lost by those that use it properly. what chumps.

[ihate17]

Originally Posted by SilentBob420BMFJ

am i wrong to assume that the casinos that offer LS usually have H17? i think the reason why most casinos dont offer LS is because (im guessing here) the majority of people that use it are people who know what they are doing, whereas ploppies never give up

In Vegas, casinos that offer surrender often have it on both games. Places like Mandalay Bay, Tropicana, MGM, Monte Carlo, Wynn and Bellagio and many others have both Hit and Stay on soft 17 tables and offer it on both kinds of shoes.
Basically today there are no longer any double deck games with surrender I believe and casinos that have surrender have it on both.

I think when casinos decide to have or not have surrender, you get two opinions. The casinos that like table games and have some good ones appear to understand that even though surrender will reduce the house edge, that it in fact increases it because the vast majority of players play it wrong. This would be the MGM properties as a big corporate example.
Casinos that dislike table games and do not really understand them, fear a rule that a decent player can use to his advantage and do not understand that most players are not decent players, so they reject it. This would be Harrah's properties.

ihate17