hi-lo one of the worst systems?

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

according to this, hi-lo is one of the worst systems.. http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/counting/OSRating.htm
now i know most of you will disagree, and im not agreeing or disagreeing, i just want to know why hi-lo is decent if the numbers are so low on it (BC, PE..)

[RG1]

That site doesn't factor in difficulty. I like this site better: http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

You'll notice that Hi-Lo is the best level 1 balanced count that doesn't side count aces. It's not only about BC and PE but also simplicity. Simplicity leads to accuracy and the ability to play long sessions. Factor in simplicity and Hi-Lo is one of the best.

[deadlywizard234]

Originally Posted by SilentBob420BMFJ

according to this, hi-lo is one of the worst systems.. http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/counting/OSRating.htm
now i know most of you will disagree, and im not agreeing or disagreeing, i just want to know why hi-lo is decent if the numbers are so low on it (BC, PE..)

switching from a lvl 1system(and hi lo is the easiest lvl 1 system in my opinion) to a lvl 3 system adds very little money, like pennies on the dollar. You'll make way more money putting your attention on finding optimal game conditions (deck penetration most importantly) rather then going through the huge learning curve of learning an upper tier system.

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Originally Posted by RG1

That site doesn't factor in difficulty. I like this site better: http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

You'll notice that Hi-Lo is the best level 1 balanced count that doesn't side count aces. It's not only about BC and PE but also simplicity. Simplicity leads to accuracy and the ability to play long sessions. Factor in simplicity and Hi-Lo is one of the best.

I can't see why a side count of aces wouldn't be a bad idea with the simple Hi/Lo counting system. It isn't hard to add on to the relatively simple system and can tell you when or when not to expect an ace.

If a hundred cards or so go by in a six deck shoe and only one or two aces are shown it increases the next deal to give an ace to the board. A chance to bet higher even if the true count is neutral. Seems to help me anyway.

[RG1]

Originally Posted by AnIrishmannot2brite

I can't see why a side count of aces wouldn't be a bad idea with the simple Hi/Lo counting system. It isn't hard to add on to the relatively simple system and can tell you when or when not to expect an ace.

If a hundred cards or so go by in a six deck shoe and only one or two aces are shown it increases the next deal to give an ace to the board. A chance to bet higher even if the true count is neutral. Seems to help me anyway.

Your hi-lo TC which tells you your optimal bet already factors in that you have a better chance of getting an ace. For the extra difficulty you mise well use a level 2 or 3 count.

To each his own, but I don't think you are gaining much from side counting aces in a shoe. That said, having a side count of aces can only help. Like when you know most of your positive hi-lo count is made up of aces you won't take insurance as often. In this situation you will be less likely to double an 11, and more likely to double a 9 or 10 with more aces.

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Originally Posted by RG1

Your hi-lo TC which tells you your optimal bet already factors in that you have a better chance of getting an ace. For the extra difficulty you mise well use a level 2 or 3 count.

To each his own, but I don't think you are gaining much from side counting aces in a shoe. That said, having a side count of aces can only help. Like when you know most of your positive hi-lo count is made up of aces you won't take insurance as often. In this situation you will be less likely to double an 11, and more likely to double a 9 or 10 with more aces.

Or the possibility of getting an ace pair against a weak dealer up card. I figure it can't hurt. And the chance to stick a little more dough up front early in the shoe when few aces have been played.

[Kasi]

Originally Posted by SilentBob420BMFJ

according to this, hi-lo is one of the worst systems.. http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/counting/OSRating.htm
now i know most of you will disagree, and im not agreeing or disagreeing, i just want to know why hi-lo is decent if the numbers are so low on it (BC, PE..)

For one, it's based on a very specific game (SD, 4-1 spread, S17,No DAS).

It assumes TC adjustments for KO for the BC, etc.

The OSR is based on running counts.

Basically, KO might outperform Hi-Lo in certain games but not in others.

[jack,jackson]

Originally Posted by Kasi

For one, it's based on a very specific game (SD, 4-1 spread, S17,No DAS).

It assumes TC adjustments for KO for the BC, etc.

The OSR is based on running counts.

Basically, KO might outperform Hi-Lo in certain games but not in others.

I would also like to note, that a system with the highest PE. will outperform(higher OSR) any other system on a 1:1 spread.
Likewise, a system with the highest BC. will outperform(higher OSR) any other system on a infinite spread. For your BC will ALWAYS match your OSR when bet spreads are maxed out. (In general a BC of usually .99+ will usually max itself on or around 1:80 to 1:120 spread.)

Important to note: A systems OSR (EV?) will not change between 1:6 through 1:12 for reasons i dont understand.
This is where (i believe) win rate vs ev shows its difference. Hence, were making more money because were betting more money. But doing so with less of a given edge. In effect increasing are risk of ruin. Opposed, to smaller spreads that gives us more bang for our buck with much less risk. But of course our winrate will be smaller because were betting less money. To try and put it in a nutshell( pick your poison). Case in point if your playing on a limited BR it makes perfect sense to use smaller spreads. Youll get a bigger bang for your buck!

Im not trying to say i know exactly how it works. Because obviously i dont! But i believe its better to be aware that the difference does exist. So be careful before you go off wandering into dark territorys without knowing what awaits you

[RJT]

The beauty of the Hi/Lo system lies in its simplicity. If you are playing solo, or playing against hand dealt game, then you would possibly be better off with a higher level count, but for those players looking to play shoe games, maybe with a team or perhaps looking for a larger advantage through other techniques, it keeps things simple so you can focus on other aspects of the game.
As to side counting Aces with Hi/Lo - it's pretty pointless. The whole idea behind side counting Aces is to use the information differently to make betting and playing decisions. As Hi/Lo already counts the Ace's as -1, it's already considered them a high card for both decisions, where as you need to consider it a low card for playing decisions. If you want to use a side count of Aces, use a non-Ace reckoned count like the Hi Opt I.

RJT.

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

Originally Posted by RG1

That site doesn't factor in difficulty. I like this site better: http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

You'll notice that Hi-Lo is the best level 1 balanced count that doesn't side count aces. It's not only about BC and PE but also simplicity. Simplicity leads to accuracy and the ability to play long sessions. Factor in simplicity and Hi-Lo is one of the best.

but there are a few systems that are better than high low in PE (BC is usually the same or w/ in .02), and still just as simple or simpler

Originally Posted by Kasi

For one, it's based on a very specific game (SD, 4-1 spread, S17,No DAS).

It assumes TC adjustments for KO for the BC, etc.

The OSR is based on running counts.

Basically, KO might outperform Hi-Lo in certain games but not in others.

i hate how its based on none standard games.. (i will base this simulation on 1 deck, 80% penetration, LSR, DAS, etc), who the hell plays those games? and 1 more thing to add, as i am adding in all my posts, i am flat betting $10, wonging in at anything over zero, and thus 90% of everything i read is pointless as spreading plays a part in all the math