Why do they stay?

[aslan]

What I don't understand is if people hate this country so much, why do they stay? Akin to this is if this country is so bad with all its crooked politicians and facist government, why do we have to build a fence to keep people out, while other countries like Iran are having trouble keeping people in?

[Mimosine]

Originally Posted by aslan

What I don't understand is if people hate this country so much, why do they stay? Akin to this is if this country is so bad with all its crooked politicians and facist government, why do we have to build a fence to keep people out, while other countries like Iran are having trouble keeping people in?

maybe because this country *could* be better and *should* be better than it is.

nevertheless your 2.5 sentences aren't even tied together in a logical sense:

#1 talks about people who live here
#2 talks about people who live in destitute poverty south of the border trying to have a better life
#2.5 talks about a country where if you return, say from working in another country, to visit your family back home you have to worry if you'll be able to LEAVE again. Iran really isn't having that much trouble keeping people in. They've been perfecting it for some time - so my Iranian friends tell me from first hand experience.

we all have IDEALS about where and how we would like to live. Some of us have HIGHER ideals than others - with no, or limited options to exercise them. so here we all are.

that should answer your question.

[Canceler]

Originally Posted by Mimosine

maybe because this country *could* be better and *should* be better than it is.

Also, for us old-timers, this country *was* better than it is.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Mimosine

maybe because this country *could* be better and *should* be better than it is.

nevertheless your 2.5 sentences aren't even tied together in a logical sense:

#1 talks about people who live here
#2 talks about people who live in destitute poverty south of the border trying to have a better life

On the contrary, they are very much related. You missed the point. The "fence to keep people out" is merely symbolic of the fact that people from all over the world are migrating to this country, not only through the Mexican border, but every venue available. They see the U.S. as a desireable place to live. So much of the rhetoric I hear in the Zen Zone and elsewhere is how terrible this country is, even to the extent of calling our government "facist," and accusing our politicians of conspiring to attack the U.S. and blame it on foreign terrorists. Also, I hear great praise for governments that actually do foster and/or harbor terrorists, and which openly show contempt for the U.S. It is one thing to wish our country to be better than it is, but these diatribes are seldom if ever in that context. They are destructive, unpatriotic, treasonness, and false. The kind of remarks I am referring to are definitely not in the context of "we've got a great country, but we need to work on these few flaws." No. They are damning in their indictment of the U.S. and its leaders as totally corrupt and below the standard of other countries, invariably our enemies.

Originally Posted by Mimosine

#2.5 talks about a country where if you return, say from working in another country, to visit your family back home you have to worry if you'll be able to LEAVE again. Iran really isn't having that much trouble keeping people in. They've been perfecting it for some time - so my Iranian friends tell me from first hand experience.

My friend says it is more like a police state. He wants to visit his family but he says that people who do so run the risk of being imprisoned. He says that 80% of the people of Iran want regime change.

Originally Posted by Mimosine

we all have IDEALS about where and how we would like to live. Some of us have HIGHER ideals than others - with no, or limited options to exercise them. so here we all are.
that should answer your question.

[eps6724]

Winston Churchill once made the comment that Democracy was the WORST form of government...except for all the rest.

[jon]

[QUOTE=aslan;51269
My friend says it is more like a police state. He wants to visit his family but he says that people who do so run the risk of being imprisoned. He says that 80% of the people of Iran want regime change.[/QUOTE]

80%-that is false. A huge portion of the population still live in poor rural areas that still support the Islamic Government, especially Ahmadinejad (not to mention the millions of refugees America and Russia pushed Iran's way). These are the people who were starved relocated and mistreated during the days of the Shah and Western rule. All these poor people prefer the newer Islamic Rulers who provide free health care for the poor (great health care by Iranian Standards). They also receive more food, aide and compassion from the current regime than they did in the past. I am not saying the current regime is a good one, just that there is more support than you would think.

Remember that democracy is just a word to those who are starving.

PS--I go to Iran every year and only have troubles entering America, not leaving Iran.

[Automatic Monkey]

Originally Posted by jon

80%-that is false. A huge portion of the population still live in poor rural areas that still support the Islamic Government, especially Ahmadinejad (not to mention the millions of refugees America and Russia pushed Iran's way). These are the people who were starved relocated and mistreated during the days of the Shah and Western rule. All these poor people prefer the newer Islamic Rulers who provide free health care for the poor (great health care by Iranian Standards). They also receive more food, aide and compassion from the current regime than they did in the past. I am not saying the current regime is a good one, just that there is more support than you would think.

Remember that democracy is just a word to those who are starving.

PS--I go to Iran every year and only have troubles entering America, not leaving Iran.

The illogic of the poor in Iran is that Iran is a rich country and there is no reason they should be poor. So the Islamofascist government gives them barely enough so they don't starve while at the same time taking their freedom away so they remain poor.

[zengrifter]

Originally Posted by Automatic Monkey

The illogic of the poor in Iran is that Iran is a rich country and there is no reason they should be poor. So the Islamofascist government gives them barely enough so they don't starve while at the same time taking their freedom away so they remain poor.

This tells a different story -

---------------------
A Look At Revolutionary Iran

By Jack Manuelian
RENSE | 2-21-7

A recent article written by Fatima Bhutto about Tehran takes someone by surprise. I would like to highlight some paragraphs from that article because Iran, on the eve of her coming destruction by USA, is deceptively pictured as the ogre of the Middle East about to devour everything on her path.

Mrs/Ms. Bhutto starts her tour in Tehran, a megalopolis of 14 million people, by taking the Metro, a modern one that made her feel like being in London tube, she says the Iran metro is an "absolute wonder" and it runs on three lines. There are cabins reserved for females only, but females are free to take mixed cabins if they like.

Her first visit upon coming up ground was "Sarkis Cathedral on Karim Khan-e-Zand Street, a [Christian] Armenian Orthodox church built in the late 1960s. Unlike the gothic churches hidden away in Saddar and under heavy Ranger protection, Sarkis Cathedral was a prominent landmark in Tehran. It is said to be the most visible non- Islamic building in the city; just in case you miss it, across the street painted on a large building is a mural of the Virgin Mary holding the baby Jesus in her arms, angels sprinkled around their halos."

She discovers that "in the early 1990s, after the [first] Gulf War, Iran was home to 4.5 millions refugees from Iraq and Afghanistan."

She mentions Iran remaining "a veritable melting pot. Tehran itself is composed of a diverse and unusual mix of ethnicities, nationalities, and religions and those people -including Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians - live safely and comfortably alongside Muslims and have done so for thousands of years." Beside the Persians Iran is home to Azeris, Kurds, Arabs, Lors, Balochis, Armenians and Assyrians.

She discovers that "religious minorities there receive the same amount of blood money in the case of bereavement that Muslims do, whereas before the Revolution they were only offered half the amount that Muslims could claim."

...more - http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=5037

[aslan]

Originally Posted by eps6724

Winston Churchill once made the comment that Democracy was the WORST form of government...except for all the rest.

I agree. Government is a necessary evil.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by jon

80%-that is false. A huge portion of the population still live in poor rural areas that still support the Islamic Government, especially Ahmadinejad (not to mention the millions of refugees America and Russia pushed Iran's way). These are the people who were starved relocated and mistreated during the days of the Shah and Western rule. All these poor people prefer the newer Islamic Rulers who provide free health care for the poor (great health care by Iranian Standards). They also receive more food, aide and compassion from the current regime than they did in the past. I am not saying the current regime is a good one, just that there is more support than you would think.

Remember that democracy is just a word to those who are starving.

PS--I go to Iran every year and only have troubles entering America, not leaving Iran.

I only repeated what an Iranian-American told me. His parents and many relatives and friends still live in Iran. Yes, relatives are able to travel here for visits; in fact two are here now.

I hope it is harder to get into the U.S. from a war-on-terror standpoint. There are no groups in America to the best of my knowledge who have threatened to infiltrate Iran and commit acts of terror.

But you know what I meant--I was referring to the ability of an Iranian citizen to permanently leave the country. Any American can leave to live elsewhere at any time to the best of my knowledge. If you are saying that you are an Iranian citizen and you have no trouble leaving Iran permanently, I would like to pursue this discussion further and involve my friend who also knows firsthand. I would be surprised if it is easy. Also, it would not explain why people visiting relatives in Iran are sometimes imprisoned, which is why my friend will not chance visiting his parents before they die.

When I relate the things discussed here about Iran he just gestures in disgust.