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September 29th, 2007, 02:00 PM
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Executive Member
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Location: Midwest
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One reason you should be a Christian
Now, we all know that there are dozens of major religions out there, and literally thousands of smaller ones. So, how the hell are we supposed to pick one, and know that g(G)od(s) really spoke to this person/group and believe them? Well, I believe that God understands how difficult it is to discern spiritual truth, and offers us evidence that the Bible is trustworthy, so that we aren't stuck with major doubts. God wants us to be able to believe in him, with full intellectual integrity:
"(God), who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth... (1 Timothy 2:4)
And God also wants his followers to not be assholes to people that have legitimate questions, nor does he demand blind faith, but:
"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"
(1 Peter 3:15).
So, what methods does God use to authenticate the Bible? Well, there are many, but one of the main ones is the use of long-term predictive prophecy. This is how God commands his people to judge someone who claims to be a prophet:
"You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."
(Deuteronomy 18:21-22).
Now, there are literally hundreds of short-term fulfilled prophecies, all throughout the Bible. God predicts the eminent destruction of nations, coming famines, the deaths of kings, etc. These are certainly cool, but they're hard for us to use to authenticate the text, because 1. they're short term, and it's possible that someone could have made an educated guess and 2. they're too close to the time of the author's writing for us to verify that they weren't post-dated.
However, there are several cases of long-term predictive prophecy. Wouldn't you agree that a person who could predict major events hundreds of years in advance, with perfect accuracy, and numerous specific details, would have to have access to some sort of supernatural power? Well, that's exactly what several biblical writers do.
In one instance, the prophet Isaiah names Cyrus as the man who will rebuild the city of Jerusalem, and the temple, approximately 160 years before it happens:
"I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness:
I will make all his ways straight.
He will rebuild my city
and set my exiles free,
but not for a price or reward,
says the LORD Almighty."
(Isaiah 45:14)
At the time that this prophecy was written, the temple and the city were still standing! In fact, they weren't destroyed until 586 by the Babylonians, and it wasn't until the Persians took over the Babylonians that this became a possibility. And he names the king! No human being could do this by random chance.
There are some other examples, including the book of Daniel, where he predicts the rise and fall of several empires (including Rome), and names to the year when the Messiah will come. I'm going to try and find some good articles on those.
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September 29th, 2007, 04:41 PM
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Executive Member
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Posts: 17,199
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Last edited by zengrifter; September 30th, 2007 at 03:17 AM.
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September 29th, 2007, 06:28 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 927
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moo, i glanced at your article for 1 second, and it makes me sick.. you are the exact kind of person i detest, somebody who will come on a blackjack forum and try to turn people into christians.. you have been brainwashed, and it makes me sick.. you saw me post that i dont think god is real so you have to create a thread about god? wtf thats ****ed up man.. i suppose i should go create an article about how you should be atheist? or how about i dont care what you believe in, cuz im not some door-to-door bible banger trying to brainwash others.. sad
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September 29th, 2007, 06:34 PM
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Executive Member
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Location: Midwest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentBob420BMFJ
moo, i glanced at your article for 1 second, and it makes me sick.. you are the exact kind of person i detest, somebody who will come on a blackjack forum and try to turn people into christians.. you have been brainwashed, and it makes me sick.. you saw me post that i dont think god is real so you have to create a thread about god? wtf thats ****ed up man.. i suppose i should go create an article about how you should be atheist? or how about i dont care what you believe in, cuz im not some door-to-door bible banger trying to brainwash others.. sad
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Why are you so opposed to Christianity? Do you think it's stupid, do you dislike how certain Christians act, did you have a bad experience? It seems like you're completely unwilling to even consider objective evidence. Is there a reason for this? Oh, and I posted the article because Zengrifter said I should.
And, please do post an article about why we should be atheists. I'm not trying to brainwash anyone, I want you to make an objective decision about what is true.
Last edited by moo321; September 29th, 2007 at 06:40 PM.
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September 29th, 2007, 08:45 PM
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Executive Member
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentBob420BMFJ
moo, i glanced at your article for 1 second, and it makes me sick.. you are the exact kind of person i detest, somebody who will come on a blackjack forum and try to turn people into christians.. you have been brainwashed, and it makes me sick.. you saw me post that i dont think god is real so you have to create a thread about god? wtf thats ****ed up man.. i suppose i should go create an article about how you should be atheist? or how about i dont care what you believe in, cuz im not some door-to-door bible banger trying to brainwash others.. sad
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Have you not an open mind? zg
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September 30th, 2007, 12:06 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: lost in cyberspace
Posts: 268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentBob420BMFJ
moo, i glanced at your article for 1 second, and it makes me sick.. you are the exact kind of person i detest, somebody who will come on a blackjack forum and try to turn people into christians.. you have been brainwashed, and it makes me sick.. you saw me post that i dont think god is real so you have to create a thread about god? wtf thats ****ed up man.. i suppose i should go create an article about how you should be atheist? or how about i dont care what you believe in, cuz im not some door-to-door bible banger trying to brainwash others.. sad
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I don't think moo has come on here trying to turn people into christians. He started posting in the zenzone from a post started by ZEN. Moo just gave his opinion.
And I would be open to you starting a thread why to be an atheist - make sure you give proof and not just because you say so. in fact i would CHALLENGE you to do so - and trust me those of us who are christians on here won't respond like you do - being a closed minded jerk.
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September 30th, 2007, 02:32 AM
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Executive Member
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,248
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I'm pretty sure that Daniel didn't name the year the messiah would come and get it exactly right.In the first place,Jews don't believe the Messiah has come yet,and Christians can't decide exactly which year Jesus was born.About the only thing fairly certain is he wasn't born December 25th of the last year before Christ,or before common era as it is commonly referred to.
Surely you are not suggesting that Nostrodamus had supernatural powers,are you?
__________________
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out just how far one can go.
We cannot direct the wind, we can only adjust our sails.
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September 30th, 2007, 03:23 AM
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Executive Member
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moo321
Well, I believe that God understands how difficult it is to discern spiritual truth, and offers us evidence that the Bible is trustworthy, so that we aren't stuck with major doubts. God wants us to be able to believe in him, with full intellectual integrity...
"(God), who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth...
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Well if I understand the concept: God is a loving god, and so loves the world that he sent his only beloved Son to atone for my and all mankind's "original sin". All God requires is that I love his Son and confess Him as Lord and I can then live forever in glorious heaven.
If, however, I do not recognize His Son I will be consigned to burn in hell for eternity?
Oh, and who is his son? He is His Son, too!
Have I got it right? z  g See - The Beast 666 Universal Human Control System
Last edited by zengrifter; September 30th, 2007 at 06:56 PM.
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September 30th, 2007, 03:46 AM
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Executive Member
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Midwest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadroch
I'm pretty sure that Daniel didn't name the year the messiah would come and get it exactly right.In the first place,Jews don't believe the Messiah has come yet,and Christians can't decide exactly which year Jesus was born.About the only thing fairly certain is he wasn't born December 25th of the last year before Christ,or before common era as it is commonly referred to.
Surely you are not suggesting that Nostrodamus had supernatural powers,are you?
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Two great questions. First, the prophecy about the Messiah. Here's the text (Daniel is narrating):
"While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill- while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing."
(Daniel 9:20-25).
So, first of all, the prophecy is based on something that hasn't yet happened when he is writing. But he basically says "start the clock when they decree that the temple be rebuilt". So, we have 69 "Sevens" (62+7) of years, or 483. Now, we need to make a conversion when we use our calculator, because we are on a 365 day calendar, and their calendar was 360 days. When we do so, we end up with 173,880 days, or 476.38 years. The last thing we have to do is adjust for the fact that there was no year zero between 1 BC and 1 AD, and we end up with 477.38.
Now, we can't be 100% sure when this edict was issued, but we're pretty sure it was 445 BC. So, we subtract 477 from 445, and we get -32, or 32 AD. The prophecy may be accurate to the day, but people argue about when exactly the edict was given, so I'm not going to split hairs. Bottom line, there's a specific prophecy that the Messiah would be killed in 32 AD, and we know that's when he died. QUITE a coincidence? Or was Jesus the son of God?
As far as Nostradamus goes, I don't know if he had supernatural powers or not. I do know that many of the prophecies that are alleged to refer to modern events are often vague, and the details don't quite fit. Compare that with this explanation of the vision in Daniel (the angel Gabriel is speaking, explaining a vision that Daniel had):
"He said: "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power."
(Daniel 8:19-22)
So, Daniel names the kingdoms that will come to power in the Middle East, and even predicts that the king of Greece (Alexander the Great) would be die, and that his empire would be split into 4 pieces. How the hell could anyone make a prophecy like that centuries in advance without supernatural power?
Last edited by moo321; September 30th, 2007 at 03:48 AM.
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