Why don't we just trash BS and start *FRESH*

After all .. BlackJack is a mathematical game. I don't want everyone to
think this is a moronic idea, but what if we're all doing what the "computer"
is telling us what to do. Although the IBM 704 computer was designed and
programmed only to track the cards and play at a level of [17.]

10 + 7 = 17 ~~ Stop
J + 7 = 17 ~~ Stop
Q + 7 = 17 ~~ Stop
K + 7 = 17 ~~ Stop

Why is our mentality in this computer generated BS such a mindset?
Because we are humans and we're gullible. We believe everything that is
taught us on what is right from wrong! Well what if what is wrong is right!
You know our brains have two parts, one side the left lobe controls the right
side of your body, while the other the right lobe controls the left side of
your body. How many computers back in 1954 were used to figure the
probabilities of BS? 3 computers! The IBM 704, and Edward O. Thorpe.
Yet dear Edward may have only used the left side of his brain which
controls the analytical, numbers, linear, details, and concrete. The right
side of the brain may have been incoherent to his "strategy" which he did
not use to implement in his BS, the right side controls intuitive, images,
non-linear, big picture, abstract. Remember the Brain acts as 2 computers,
the left lobe and the right lobe used to control the body.

Let's talk about a part of the right side of the brain the abstract,
and adapt this abstract to BlackJack as an abstract art. An abstract art
is distinct from pattern-making in design, since it draws on the distinction
between decorative art (i.e. mixed suits, pair of suits) and fine art
(i.e. playing intuitively,) in which a painting is an object of thoughtful
contemplation in its own right. Remember I talked about the right side
of the brain which controls the intuitiveness? This is why you need to
look at the whole picture, use your intuitiveness to control the abstract
art (i.e. mixed suits, pair suits). And imagine going beyond the 17 that
the BS "computer" has given you as the MindSet!

J*Star

if i could tell what cards where in the hole or next, i would be the richest and most banned person from BJ on the planet. So ill let math help me instead of smoking some ganja and taking a chance :cool2:

It’s been done. The proper BS for blackjack has been calculated by numerous independent sources and they all agree. The complete process has been published for years so anyone can freely find the answers on their own if they want. There is a reason why BS has not changed in the past few decades. Why would you disagree?

Blackjack is not an abstract art, nor is it a “decorative” art. It is a very simple case of weighted probabilities. It is not the sort of thing that should be analyzed with the “intuitive” side of the mind. Playing by intuition has driven many gamblers to bankruptcy. Intuition is what tempts people to use progression systems and play hunches that are self-destructive.

There are definitely areas of gambling where the creative side of the mind becomes invaluable. Determining the proper playing strategy is not one of them.

-Sonny-

apples and oranges

When you take something like art and compare it to blackjack, the first thing that hits my mind is that in art you have no boundaries, no fixed amount of anything and unlimited opportunity because as they say, one man's garbage is another man's art.

In blackjack you have a strict set of rules (with a few changes depending upon each casino), a strict set of cards as each deck will contain the exact same 52 cards and you have (for counting and not BS) a continuous change in the makeup of those cards not yet dealt.

So you can not use the other side of your brain and add extra aces or take those 5's out of the stack when the dealer has a 16. Now if you have the mental ability to know the next card, you are not reading this board or this post, you are too busy building your nest egg.

Thinking about this. I believe that way more than 99% of the blackjack players today are doing some of what JStar is saying here. They do not know basic strategy, the play on intuition or their gut. JStar wants the less than 1% of players who know basic strategy and the % of them who do count to start to play like the rest of the blackjack playing universe.
The problem with this way of thinking is very simple and very clear. We all know and have seen just how badly these players who have switched brain sides lose!

HStar, your post definately does not belong here but never fear, we have a perfect place for it, the Voodoo board.

ihate17

Perhaps I shouldn't muddy the waters,but I'm curious if anyone has ever tried incorparating things like Chaos Theory into casino games.
I don't really know exactly what they are,but is anyone aware of any serious investigation into it and casinos?

If your brain was a computer, or if casinos allowed you to use a computer, you could then generate a customized basic strategy every time you see a card played. At the same time you could modify that BS based on the ongoing card count. Wow! Wonder why they don't let us use computers at the tables? :laugh:

I think ihate17 and sonny have this one pretty much nailed down here but i would like to add that when comparing the left and right sides of the brain, we have far more control over the left side of the brain at the present time. We can in form quantify the ability of the left side where-as the right side, while we can distinguish it's function, is far more difficult to produce repeatable results with.
This is why i don't subscribe to fuzzy counting or the use of our subconscience at this point in our evolutionary development. i don't think we have the tools avalible to us to make proper use of this strategies. I know ZG only suggests using this for boarderline decisions, but why bother? If they are boarderline, it's not going to cost you much or win you much either way. Play the way you know is right rather than assuming we have some sort of control over the parts of the brain we can't even quantify yet.

RJT.

I have been intrigued by this possibility myself. There are plenty of systems for trading currencies and commodities which base themselves on mathematical formulas identifying trends. A casino shuffle can produce random looking results but is not truly random, thus I would hypothesize a small trending component could exist. I seriously doubt any possible practical application at the tables however without aid of a computer.
BW

Now i'm a bit out of my league here, but as far as i was aware, there is yet to be an actually functioning trend predictor formula devised? Otherwise i would have thought that that formula would be worth a fortune and those few people in possession on it would be treating the worlds currency markets as a cash machine?

RJT.

First post was it last post?

Meanwhile, the guy who started this thread has not reappeared and it also was his first post. Or was it his last post?

ihate17

I thought that kid was really on to something. zg

Not my area of expertise but I've studied it a bit recently. The key (what busts most traders and keeps 99% of people out) seems to be in risk management, usually risking no more 2%max of your portfolio in a trade and often less than 1%. Long losing streaks are not uncommon. Most money by technical traders gets made in the big market moves following news announcements or world events. When there is low volatility they are getting ground down by commissions or spreads. It is not a huge cash machine but some trend systems show consistent returns.

with a name like Zengrifter, I am not surprised

If I thought some serious meditation would tell me the next card out of the shoe or better yet, let me control it, that power could and should be used for something much more significant than a card game.

The kid would be proud of me though since he also makes a point about 17. Playing at a casino where they use ASM's that sometimes "box" the cards, I am stuck with a 17 (and we all know ihate17), the dealer has a 9 and there is a boxed three just yelling at me to take it. So I did.

ihate17

Still here! ! !

I just wanted to see what your comments would be on my idea. Like I
said before, I didn't want you all to think that this may have been a
moronic idea of mine. Afterall, I have been doing my own independent
strategic research with this game and found my own unique moves,
and found very advantageous ways of beating the house. Of course
there's going to be the House Rules, but there's other ways of playing
in a way that the House will accept. If you know how to, well I can't
say "bend" the rules, because that would not be what i'm trying to
explain what you can do that the House will accept. All I was trying
to do was "open" your mind to the possibilities, they are endless from
what we were actually taught by so called "experts." There are many
of you in which I believe can make your own strategy, it all depends
on how you use your brain as a tool to do it, and I am still working on
a final strategy for a new system that has never been published in any
book. Now as for the part where the 99%+ counters who use advantage
play, and would like the other 1% of players who only know basic strategy
to start play like the rest of the blackjack universe. I could careless how
any of the other players play, they could be advantage players or basic
strategy players on the same table as me. They will not affect the style
of my method which throws off the dealer to bust more. Now, like I
said before.. Open your minds, there's so many possibilities in working
the cards to bust the dealer, and not just giving you winning hands even
if the dealer hadn't bust.

That's all for now! Good-Luck!

J*Star

Welcome back

How about saying something?

About the ASM's. . .

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention a thing about the Automatic Shuffler
Machines. There's still a way to beat those, even though the modern
day card counter wouldn't know where to start. I can't say a lot on these
boards, because you know the casino personnel are watching these boards
like a hawk as well! If you got something good that's going on, and got
a secret, why would you want to ruin it and have the casino catch on to
it? After all, if these methods were ever revealed then the casino would
have to implement more rules, or even, I wouldn't say go to the extreme
as to get rid of the game. They might, if people played this advantageous
way, like a magician with a card trick and then they would pull game from
the tables.

I can't emphasize to you all how much you really can overcome in this
game. Like I said before, open your minds, don't stick to the [17] hands
that you may get while taking your cards, go beyond that! One other thing.
It does not matter if you play 1, 2 ,5,6, or 8 decks! Just get a deck or
two for yourself, and please do make your own strategic moves, ignore
the Basic Strategy that was taught you, you'll be surprised what you
might find in 1 through 3 hands if you do this. But remember, as I am told
the casinos also watch this kind of move if you deviate from Basic
Strategy! If you do deviate from BS, make sure you do it in a way to
"camouflage" your play. Because the casinos run software to figure
if your an advantage player, a basic strategy player, or just a moron.
I like to get into the "moron" status of a casino to "advertise" myself
to the casino what kind of player I am to "camouflage" before I am
indefinitely sure how I am going in to make my moves.


J*Star

Actually, the first 3 generations of CSMs have already been beaten by card counters. Every time they invent a new model, we find a way to beat it. The current machines are still being beaten but not by card counting. There are a few discussions about it in this very forum. Although the specifics of these techniques are kept secret, the ability to beat CSMs has been common knowledge for many years now. If you search the forums here you might be surprised at how many innovative techniques you’ll learn about.

-Sonny-

well i don't believe i'd throw out basic strategy, lol . if i were using orthodox counting i wouldn't consider using intuition either except perhaps as ZG describes it for borderline index plays.
fuzzy counting as i've been refering to it isn't based on intuition per se. it's based on being aware of what cards have been dealt and as a result the estimation of the ratio of high value cards and low value cards left to be dealt. it requires an understanding of orthodox counting and experience counting. reason being is the results of your observation and estimation need to be related to proportional betting levels. the idea being to model the act of fuzzy counting as closely as possible to orthodox counting. therein is where judgement and intuition may come in to play. so for what ever game i intend to play i'm going to want to have run a hi/lo simulation for it so as to know the optimal bets for my bankroll at what TC.
i guess an analogy would be flying by the seat of your pants as opposed to flying with the aid of instruments. another analogy might be say a musician who plays by ear as opposed to one who plays according to written music.
but anyway with fuzzy counting as i'm refering to the idea the use of intuition becomes more viable since there is such a great degree of uncertainty with respect to just what the TC actually is.
your point with repsect to borderline index plays and intuition is why bother it's not going to cost you much or gain you much either way. that is to a great degree my point with respect to using fuzzy counting as opposed to orthodox counting. with an edge of one or two percent why bother especially when faced with crappy games and conditions we face today.

ASM or CSM

JStar
I detect a lack of experience here. I think you meant CSM (continuous shuffle machine) but stated ASM (automatic shuffle machine), the two things are completely different.
As mentioned in this thread, every time the casinos have invested in a new CSM, advantage players have found a way to beat them.
As far as ASM's go, they can be beaten just by simple counting.

In case you do not know: With a ASM, you play a whole shoe while the machine is shuffling the next shoe. Not really different than a regular hand shuffled game except that the casino gets more hands in and you can not shuffle track.

A CSM is continuous. There is one stack (4 or 5 decks) that are continuously in play. After a round or two the discards are just placed back into the machine and shuffled into the remaining cards. Counting does you no good but other ways have been developed by those who understood exactly how the machine works.

ihate17

Sonny - should this not be in the Voodoo forum. As much as i can see why JStar thinks it should be in the Advanced Techniques, i think most of us know it shouldn't. Just stating that you should break BS with no supporting evidence, going on about trying it on the kitchen table to prove it - no offence JStar, but i get the impression that this conversation is just going to go round in circles with people asking questions and you giving vage to the point of meaningless answers.

Sagefrog - Absolutely no offence was intended to you in that last post. While i don't subscribe to your hypothesis it is interesting none the less. What i would say is that if you need to know and have experience of counting to ever use your technique, why would anyone ever want to move over to it? It offers no more power than counting on its best days and less on its worst. That doens't seem great to me.
Having seen the number of errors that the average counter makes when they think they are playing well, this strategy just seems to amplify errors - just about ensuring you are making one every hand as you have only the most basic estimate of what the count is. And against the game conditions we face with the small edge we have, we need every fraction of a % we can get if we want to be winning players.

RJT.