Team Results

[bluewhale]

Hi, I had posted here several months ago asking for help in setting up a team. Since then we've made several trips to casinos and I just thought I'd post our results as a sort of thank you...

We played 8D, S17, DAS, DOA game with dealers cutting out 2.5-1 decks, with 2 decks being predominant. Team strategy was to have each player play individually.... backcount using standard Hi/Low ill 18, wong in at T=2, out at T=-1.

ramp was
1hand 2hands
1 25
2 50 50
3 100 75
4 150 125
5 250 175
8 300 200

was switched to this for the last 40 hrs...
1hand 2hands
1 50
2 75 75
3 150 100
4 200 150
5 300 250

if anyone can figure out if we're anywhere near where we are supposed to be (either above or below), it would be great. my VERY basic calculations are saying we're slightly above expected.

[mjbballar23]

Originally Posted by bluewhale

Hi, I had posted here several months ago asking for help in setting up a team. Since then we've made several trips to casinos and I just thought I'd post our results as a sort of thank you...

We played 8D, S17, DAS, DOA game with dealers cutting out 2.5-1 decks, with 2 decks being predominant. Team strategy was to have each player play individually.... backcount using standard Hi/Low ill 18, wong in at T=2, out at T=-1.

ramp was
1hand 2hands
1 25
2 50 50
3 100 75
4 150 125
5 250 175
8 300 200

was switched to this for the last 40 hrs...
1hand 2hands
1 50
2 75 75
3 150 100
4 200 150
5 300 250

if anyone can figure out if we're anywhere near where we are supposed to be (either above or below), it would be great. my VERY basic calculations are saying we're slightly above expected.

Thats great to see you guys have had success, especially concidering your only 20. Just out of curiousity, what was your starting bankroll? I bet backcounting 8 decks is horrendous but if your getting the money out its definitely a playable game. I could figure out how your results stand but im too tired to think tonight, so ill post what i figure out tomorrow.

[EasyRhino]

First of all... cool.

And while I don't want you guys to narc yourselves out, how many different players are on the team, and how evenly is the play distributed? How many different venues?

Anyway, from a really, really, back of the envelope sims (I can't really do the wonging right, so I assumed wong in and out at TC 0), I would think that an individual player would be looking at $30 per 100 hands at that game. If you're playing heads up, you'd get more than than per hour, if crowded, less.

And it looks like y'all have won $15000 over 325 hours... or $46/hr, so... not bad?

[Automatic Monkey]

Good work Whale! Let me second Rhino's observation, it looks like you are doing just what you're supposed to be doing. Your approach is efficient and effective.

I'm assuming your "hours" are actually man-hours, right?

One way to squeeze a little more out of your game is to backcount half as many tables (avoid all tables that cut out 2.5 decks, concentrate yourselves on the good-pen ones) and backcount in pairs. The reason is that one player can only get two hands in a game if there are two adjacent spots available, which isn't likely in typical crowd conditions. But two players can get them down no matter where the open seats are.

[sagefr0g]

so many things..... i mean well i tryed to sim the game for you but for my ability with cvcx i could just do it for one player. but anyway there are so many factors that i didn't know about your play such as bankroll, how many actual hands your team is getting in, ROR you think your playing at ect.
those conditions Rhino and Automonk refer to...... but the sims i ran for your game and that was for a crowded table show Rhino is very close with his 30/hour estimate. so just guessing and knowing how conditions can be so crappy at times i'd have to guess your team is experiencing perhaps a little over expectation but just a guess.
would just have to say it would seem a good idea for you guys to invest in a good simulator. but lol, for now looks like you guys are doing real good with out one, congradulations!

[bluewhale]

I couldn't post a ton of details on the type of conditions because, as you can imagine, with 3 players and so many hours played between us, we've seen the best and worst 8 deckers. However, about half our play came from 1.5 decks cut out, and 2-3 players on the table. the other half was 2-2.5 decks cut, almost full tables (if not completely full, where we'd go table min, 10 or 15, to our max bet).

@SF..... our roll stared at 15k, maybe someone can tell me the exact RoR based on our initial ramp, but i believe its about 3%.

our roll is now 31k (some re-investment, lots of expenses, interest, etc.)
profit, 15142, hrs played 327.5, 46/hr

we've got approx 1k in comps

@ AM... thx for the BC tip, but we actually do that already... if any other player notices another playing on a table as you described, we'd jump in and both adjust for the 2 hand ramp.

@ER... 3 counters, play over 6 casinos. 3 of which we are now banned from!

also i shld say that none of us have ever bought a blackjack book (save one shuffletracking book which we haven't used ), all our info has come from this site or the internet. i think our success is a testament to the value of this forum.

[Bojack1]

Originally Posted by bluewhale

I couldn't post a ton of details on the type of conditions because, as you can imagine, with 3 players and so many hours played between us, we've seen the best and worst 8 deckers. However, about half our play came from 1.5 decks cut out, and 2-3 players on the table. the other half was 2-2.5 decks cut, almost full tables (if not completely full, where we'd go table min, 10 or 15, to our max bet).

@SF..... our roll stared at 15k, maybe someone can tell me the exact RoR based on our initial ramp, but i believe its about 3%.

our roll is now 31k (some re-investment, lots of expenses, interest, etc.)
profit, 15142, hrs played 327.5, 46/hr

we've got approx 1k in comps

@ AM... thx for the BC tip, but we actually do that already... if any other player notices another playing on a table as you described, we'd jump in and both adjust for the 2 hand ramp.

@ER... 3 counters, play over 6 casinos. 3 of which we are now banned from!

also i shld say that none of us have ever bought a blackjack book (save one shuffletracking book which we haven't used ), all our info has come from this site or the internet. i think our success is a testament to the value of this forum.

Congratulations and good luck on continued winning. I would find it a bit disturbing though to get banned from half of the casinos I played at in such a short time of playing. If this is really the case, you might want to evaluate your game and see what could be done differently to avoid such problems. On paper your team seems to be playing a good game, but losing places to play could cost more than anything you do at the table. A great team with great players aren't worth a nickel if they can't play.

[Bojack1]

Something I would like to add, I personally do not like the idea of teamates playing at the same table if its just a straight counting game you are playing. It might be a reason that you are burning out before you even get started. Playing an EMFH type team method is fine, but you are really inviting trouble by doing it at the same table. What works out fine on paper or sims, may at times may need to be adapted to live casino play.

I play a different team style, and I wouldn't push any certain way of playing on anybody, but just for general info, we have been playing in this method for 12 years with no bannings. We use no cover plays besides what our team play offers. We play as close to optimal to our game as possible for our system, we play smart but with no paranoia.

Again, I am glad to hear you guys are doing well. I will admit though, I have much less experience with backoffs then just about everyone I see posting here. I believe I'd like to keep it that way as long as possible. There is an unwritten rule among counters, don't play at the same table with another one. If you both play optimal, then you will probably bring some unwanted attention to yourself, which can be magnified if you know each other. Instead of 1 backoff its 2. That can really dampen a team of 3's chances of profit. And if you load up your game with cover plays to hide the fact that the 2 of you at the table are counting, then you run the risk of reducing the reason you might be playing at the same table in the first place. If you can pull it off in the long run, then good for you. But so far I'd say there needs more than a money evaluation to be made if you hope for any longeveity for you or the team.

[bluewhale]

Originally Posted by Bojack1

Congratulations and good luck on continued winning. I would find it a bit disturbing though to get banned from half of the casinos I played at in such a short time of playing. If this is really the case, you might want to evaluate your game and see what could be done differently to avoid such problems. On paper your team seems to be playing a good game, but losing places to play could cost more than anything you do at the table. A great team with great players aren't worth a nickel if they can't play.

The bannings are obviously a serious problem. However the casinos where we've played so far, we've consistently been the ones putting out some of the biggest bets in the joint. This is not to say that disguising our play is impossible, just very difficult, and possibly will cost us too much in EV.

We were just a bunch of 20 year olds starting out 6 months ago, so we wanted to make sure that we were actually beating the game and making a decent hourly, all other things were secondary. Now that I'm sure that our skills are sufficient to make some serious money, do you have any advice in terms of cover?

We tried using BP, but it just cost us too much. In 3 hrs the BP went into 6 shoes. each spotter found 5 "hot" shoes, only 3 of which the BP managed to get into (either he was busy or it went cold by the time he got there). So we effectively played only 6 shoes out of 15 if we were donig EMFH, and that kind of sacrifice for cover is just not acceptable as it would make our hourly something like 20/hr.

[Automatic Monkey]

Besides that, these guys are in a tough situation for a few other reasons. Being limited to a geographical area is one of them, and I'd wager the 3 casinos that banned them are all related. So that would only count as one banning. The fact that there are only three players doesn't help either. Ten guys could mix-and-match in enough combinations that they wouldn't be recognizable together unless they are all using player's cards, which I'm sure they are.

Then there's the issue of youth, which does not work to your benefit in this game. There is no substitute for life experience in human relations when it comes to playing the casino staff, and there are certain types of acts that play well with men such as we, but are off-limits to young men. "Drunk" is the clearest example, because a drunken old man is just pathetic, while a drunken young man is scary.

Hey, here's a suggestion for cover act for the Whale's team- Q. When are a bunch of young guys allowed to be drunk and rowdy, and play together and it looks completely innocent?

A. When they're on a team.

I think you guys need uniforms. I've seen guys come in wearing baseball and soccer uniforms, whooping it up and throwing money all over the casino, and all anyone is worried about is them spilling anything.