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Old January 5th, 2008, 12:00 AM
jimpenn jimpenn is offline
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Default FRID Chips - "Faraday Bags"

A "Faraday Bag" could be the answer to hiding RFID chips. Do a google and see if this makes any sense. It costs about $30.

It's used primary for "cell phones." PRIVACY -keeps phone from making or receiving calls.
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Old January 5th, 2008, 05:13 AM
shadroch shadroch is offline
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RFID chips may be the best thing that has ever come along for the Comp counting community.Embrace the new technology and learn how to abuse the hell out of it.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 11:26 PM
Kasi Kasi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimpenn View Post
A "Faraday Bag" could be the answer to hiding RFID chips. Do a google and see if this makes any sense. It costs about $30.

It's used primary for "cell phones." PRIVACY -keeps phone from making or receiving calls.
I have no idea really but I'd worry it could be construed as a "device" and maybe get you in big trouble.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 11:36 PM
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Automatic Monkey Automatic Monkey is offline
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I have no idea really but I'd worry it could be construed as a "device" and maybe get you in big trouble.
It is a device. So is the RFID tag in the chip.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 12:35 AM
Kasi Kasi is offline
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It is a device. So is the RFID tag in the chip.
Couldn't tell if you think it's a device that could possibly get one in trouble if you had it at the table like it seems you would have to do lol?
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Old January 10th, 2008, 10:32 AM
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Sonny Sonny is offline
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I have no idea really but I'd worry it could be construed as a "device" and maybe get you in big trouble.
Nah, you wouldn’t get into any trouble because the bag doesn’t predict/affect the odds of the game. There’s no law against devices used to hide chips (unless you’re a casino employee!).

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Old January 10th, 2008, 10:55 AM
21forme 21forme is offline
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When I got my EZPass, it came in a mylar bag that shields it from being read. I presume this is the same thing?
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Old January 10th, 2008, 11:31 AM
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Automatic Monkey Automatic Monkey is offline
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When I got my EZPass, it came in a mylar bag that shields it from being read. I presume this is the same thing?
Possibly.

But an absolutely certain way to ensure your RFID chips are shielded is to make a pouch out of mu metal.

Go to http://www.mcmaster.com and enter "mu metal foil" in the search bar and it will show you what you need.
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Old January 10th, 2008, 11:51 AM
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halcyon1234 halcyon1234 is offline
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It's based on the idea of a Fraday cage or a Faraday shield:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_Cage

Stuff that's covered in first year physics. Basically, the lining will "absorb" the signal by turning it into a current in the cage itself.

A mesh bag could certainly act as a Faraday cage, if constructed correctly. It needs to be of the right material, and (for lack of a better term) "tuned" to be able to handle the RFID signal.

It would be very easy to test the effectiveness of such a lining in the comfort of your own home. You could drop a cell phone into the bag to see if you lose your signal. Or put a chip in there and use an external reader to try to pick up the signal.

I don't see the bag being mistooked (???) as a device, since it doesn't actually DO anything. It's a passive device. It'd be about as bad as walking around with some tin foil in your pocket. If quizzed on it, I'm sure that ZG could come up with some good reasons to be walking around with signal blocking lining. Or you have one of those "Tap-n'go" credit cards and are paranoid about people "pickpocketing" you card signal. Or you carry your cell, but you're paranoid about being turned "sterile by the radio-ation". Easy.

As to how to abuse the RFID:

Comps work like this: "A player will lose $X based on our estimates. So we'll give him $Y in free stuff, so that Y < X, and our profit is X-Y."

Comp "abuse" works like this: "I know the casino will give me $Y in free stuff. So I'll make them believe that I've lose $Z, where Z > X and my actual loses. Thus, my profit will be $Y - $X."

The casino seems to want to be able to track, with the RFID, how many chips you personally are given, and how many of those chips end up coming back to the casino. Thus, they can tell exactly how much you've lose.

HOWEVER, there are confounding variables. The amount of money you have can have come from other casinos, other sessions, other players, etc. So, instead, they'll probably want to keep track of just the chips you put on the table, which chips are added to that pile, and which chips from that pile come back to the tray. But that, too, can get hellishly complicated with chips flying all over the place, rolling amongst piles, being made into change, etc.

So instead they might just do this: Amount of chips you plunk down on the table, minus the amount of chips you take away with you.

Or even easier, when you pass over your comp card, when the PB scans it, it "reads" your pile to let him know how much you have put into play. This could help him determine your "play level".

When you stand up to leave, the system might take a snapshot of which chips you are taking away with you (or they'll manually track it during your "color up")

In an IDEAL WORLD (for the casino), they would track every single trip. But such granualar monitoring is way too difficult to keep acurrate. Instead, they'll reserve granular control for large denomination chips leaving the dealer tray. An alert might be thrown up on someone's monitor whenever a $500 leaves the tray, for example (in case someone is pocketing them, mispaying with them, etc). In such a PERFECT IDEAL monitoring system, a Faraday cage wouldn't be useful for anything. If you ratholed, the system would alert that a chip went "dead" or missing, and they'd all point to you. If you snuck a chip OUT of your rathole, it would instantly be registered. You might as well be playing on a computer.

In a REALISTIC world, where large chips are tracked for stealing purposes, hand-to-hand tray in and out transactions aren't monitored, and chip totals are only occasionally polled, a Faraday bag is more useful.

Sit down with $1000 in chips, and get comped for $1000. Then start ratholing away $5 and $25. They will vanish completely, and when you are "polled" again, you have magnified your loss. The PB won't have to be observant at all to tell you've "lost" money. In fact, because the PB have to be less observant about chip totals, they won't be as concerned about you ratholing.

If you are good at palming, keep an extra couple $100 in the palm of your hand. Sit down and get your pile. Keep your hand within polling range. Your stack will be "magnified" by $200. Then rathole them. Your stack will diminish greatly by the time you cash out. If you know the math real well, you can turn a win into a small loss. (If you cash in for $2000, and your EV for the session should be $100-- palmpoll $200 so your stack is $2200. You win $100-- but your final poll is only $2100. You've "lost" $100.)

If you have really, really unobservant PB who will blindly trust "the computer", then buy in for $2000, but rathole a few $500. You will be polled at a $5000 buy in. Any good PB would know the difference between a $2k and a $5k stack. But a bad PB won't. When you cash out your win (let's say it's $3000) make sure to palmpoll your stack up to a believable $4000 (two purples in your hand). The ever-trusting PB will assume you just lost $1000, and will arrange a room, buffet and DVD player for you. =)

So there you go. Know the math of the comps. Palmpoll your stack to magnify your starting stack and to diminish your final stack without EVER ratholing. Adjust your magnification to match your pitboss. Reap the benefits.

(Note: Ideally, you should either keep your palmpoll chips, or trade them away to another player so that when you cash them out, they aren't tied to you)
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  #10  
Old January 10th, 2008, 12:31 PM
Paradox Paradox is offline
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Default RFID doesn't work that way.

It needs to be in direct contact with the sensor, or at least a few inches at the most. So, you don't need to put them in a Faraday bag. Some of you don't seem to understand the NV device law.

NRS 465.075 Use of device for calculating probabilities.

It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:

1. In projecting the outcome of the game;

2. In keeping track of the cards played;

3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or

4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,

except as permitted by the commission.

This whole thread is about nothing that is applicable to gambling, its just a bunch of guessing at an impossible situation.
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