Kiss III v Red seven
- Thread starter RedCell
- Start date
There's no mathematical advantage in counting the black deuces over the red 7s. Both are just used to unbalance its system, thereby creating a general "self-truing" mechanism within the running count.
The deuce and 7 are close to each other in overall value -- both second class low cards. Technically, the deuce has a bit more betting correlation while the 7 has more playing efficiency.
In side-by-side multi-billion round sims I've run for the two systems using identical IRC's, Key Counts, betting ramps, index tables, etc., there has been less than a 0.01% difference in net EV between the two systems. But for the record and to Arnold Snyder's credit, Red 7 usually edges out KISS III by a few thousandths of one percent. Remember though -- this is using KISS III's more thoroughly structured index plays for both systems! Note that it would be perfectly fine to use the Red 7 Count with all of KISS III's fine-tuned accessories -- custom index charts, true fudging, etc.
As a final sidebar, some players have said that noticing the deuces as the card to split colors on is a bit easier than the 7s. I don't know.
The deuce and 7 are close to each other in overall value -- both second class low cards. Technically, the deuce has a bit more betting correlation while the 7 has more playing efficiency.
In side-by-side multi-billion round sims I've run for the two systems using identical IRC's, Key Counts, betting ramps, index tables, etc., there has been less than a 0.01% difference in net EV between the two systems. But for the record and to Arnold Snyder's credit, Red 7 usually edges out KISS III by a few thousandths of one percent. Remember though -- this is using KISS III's more thoroughly structured index plays for both systems! Note that it would be perfectly fine to use the Red 7 Count with all of KISS III's fine-tuned accessories -- custom index charts, true fudging, etc.
As a final sidebar, some players have said that noticing the deuces as the card to split colors on is a bit easier than the 7s. I don't know.
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I've also been looking at the KISS 3 system, having worked my way through Red 7.
I've found the counting system easy to get on with, and am comfortable with Snyder's system of sizing bets to the %age advantage in hand at any one time - it's detailed in his book "Blackbelt in Blackjack" (a must read for any aspiring BJ player). Researching the indices, however, has raised a few questions in my mind.
With Red 7, there are few adjustments to play until the second half of the shoe, and then most at RC +4. Rezny's KISS 3 indices seem more timely and aggressive in their application. I have produced a spreadsheet comparing the different adjustments at the same RC for ease of comparison.
There are two which differ a fair bit, although I suspect they are borderline cases:
Standing 16 v 9,
Red 7 - play at RC +4 (2nd half of shoe only), KISS 3 - play at RC +9
Standing 15 v10,
Red 7 - play at RC +4 (2nd half of shoe only), KISS 3 - play at RC +6.
(both assume an IRC at -12 for a six deck shoe).
Question - if I were to move these into the +4 index when applying KISS 3 adjustments, would it have any detrimental effects on the advantage and hourly return?
Newb99
I've found the counting system easy to get on with, and am comfortable with Snyder's system of sizing bets to the %age advantage in hand at any one time - it's detailed in his book "Blackbelt in Blackjack" (a must read for any aspiring BJ player). Researching the indices, however, has raised a few questions in my mind.
With Red 7, there are few adjustments to play until the second half of the shoe, and then most at RC +4. Rezny's KISS 3 indices seem more timely and aggressive in their application. I have produced a spreadsheet comparing the different adjustments at the same RC for ease of comparison.
There are two which differ a fair bit, although I suspect they are borderline cases:
Standing 16 v 9,
Red 7 - play at RC +4 (2nd half of shoe only), KISS 3 - play at RC +9
Standing 15 v10,
Red 7 - play at RC +4 (2nd half of shoe only), KISS 3 - play at RC +6.
(both assume an IRC at -12 for a six deck shoe).
Question - if I were to move these into the +4 index when applying KISS 3 adjustments, would it have any detrimental effects on the advantage and hourly return?
Newb99
Running five billion rounds each, 6D, S17, DAS, I get the following:
These are the SCOREs for 26 to 130 cards cut off. Red is KISS III. Green is your mods to KISS III. There is a small impact in the middle section of the chart. With 1.5 decks cut off, the penalty is about 1.5%. At one deck cut off, there is almost no difference. The chart assumes optimal betting. True Edge would not perform as well.
These are the SCOREs for 26 to 130 cards cut off. Red is KISS III. Green is your mods to KISS III. There is a small impact in the middle section of the chart. With 1.5 decks cut off, the penalty is about 1.5%. At one deck cut off, there is almost no difference. The chart assumes optimal betting. True Edge would not perform as well.
Brilliant !
Where I played the dealer was very precise about cutting cards out of play (almost to the point of counting them to find the precise spot to slot in the cut card) and I suspect he had been given very definite instructions around cutting out the equivalent of a single deck from six. The penetration, therefore, would be 83% (say 80%-85%? in practice). Certainly 80%.
So, in fact, there's very little in it, and it's worth bring forward these adjustments and to play them earlier on?
Thanks for running this - I'm sure others will find it useful as well.
Newb99
Where I played the dealer was very precise about cutting cards out of play (almost to the point of counting them to find the precise spot to slot in the cut card) and I suspect he had been given very definite instructions around cutting out the equivalent of a single deck from six. The penetration, therefore, would be 83% (say 80%-85%? in practice). Certainly 80%.
So, in fact, there's very little in it, and it's worth bring forward these adjustments and to play them earlier on?
Thanks for running this - I'm sure others will find it useful as well.
Newb99