I Don't Know How Counters Don't Get Noticed

[Licentia]

I sat at two tables with a card counter yesterday. Perhaps he is one of you... Regardless, it was quite clear to me that he was a counter. I am well educated on the subject of course, and perhaps that is a reason why I can identify them so clearly. But his manner of betting was so clearly different than anyone else's at the table.

Casino's obviously put themselves in a bind. They must not want to educate their employees about counting lest they create one. It seems to me that if their employees were educated adequately that counters would be noticed immediately.

He was a fairly good counter I'd say, wonging out by leaving the table. He played two spots to keep his bets low as well.

I have noticed myself that leaving the tables too often draws attention though, especially because they want you to exchange your chips before you leave the table, and if the amount is high then the pit boss is called. If the pit boss keeps seeing you when s/he is called over when chips are changed, you are getting noticed. I still remember how one pit boss looked at me... On the other hand, Wonging out while remaining at the table is pretty obvious too.

Anyway, back to the original topic, I have to say that counters, even with your methods of disguise, do still appear completely different than the other players at the table. If you don't get noticed it's probably less your skill at disguise and more the casino's incompetence at identifying you.

Licentia.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by Licentia

If you don't get noticed it's probably less your skill at disguise and more the casino's incompetence at identifying you.

I’d say it’s a little of both. Most casinos are either too ignorant or too busy to actually spot skillful players. In fact, a very skillful player will know how to avoid detection by using the casino’s weaknesses against them. He will know which employees are knowledgeable, what times the casino is busy enough and the schedule of the pit crew (shift changes, breaks, table fills, etc.). He will also know how to manipulate the employees and keep them away from him. That counter you saw was able to vary his bets and backcount completely undisturbed even though he was playing without any cover at all. Once you know how to avoid detection you can play very aggressively with very few problems.

-Sonny-

[callipygian]

Originally Posted by Licentia

If you don't get noticed it's probably less your skill at disguise and more the casino's incompetence at identifying you.

On a practical level, is there any difference between the two?

Your skill at disguise is only necessary because the casino can identify you. If they can't, then why bother with the disguises? Cover plays are an annoying necessity, not an integral part of the strategy.

[moo321]

You know what it comes down to: most people that try to count can't. In all honesty, if you compared banning every counter vs. letting them all play unhindered, you'd lose money banning them because there are so many bad ones that don't bother to learn basic strategy.

[callipygian]

Originally Posted by moo321

if you compared banning every counter vs. letting them all play unhindered, you'd lose money banning them because there are so many bad ones that don't bother to learn basic strategy.

If this is true, why do casinos ban counters at all, then? Mistaken impressions?

On some level, it HAS to be more profitable to ban than to allow, even if you limit bannings to the most obvious.

In addition, from a psychological perspective, it might be MORE profitable to ban bad counters, because bad counters take a banning as a badge of honor - and advertise their bad systems.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Licentia

I sat at two tables with a card counter yesterday. Perhaps he is one of you... Regardless, it was quite clear to me that he was a counter. I am well educated on the subject of course, and perhaps that is a reason why I can identify them so clearly. But his manner of betting was so clearly different than anyone else's at the table.

Casino's obviously put themselves in a bind. They must not want to educate their employees about counting lest they create one. It seems to me that if their employees were educated adequately that counters would be noticed immediately.

He was a fairly good counter I'd say, wonging out by leaving the table. He played two spots to keep his bets low as well.

I have noticed myself that leaving the tables too often draws attention though, especially because they want you to exchange your chips before you leave the table, and if the amount is high then the pit boss is called. If the pit boss keeps seeing you when s/he is called over when chips are changed, you are getting noticed. I still remember how one pit boss looked at me... On the other hand, Wonging out while remaining at the table is pretty obvious too.

Anyway, back to the original topic, I have to say that counters, even with your methods of disguise, do still appear completely different than the other players at the table. If you don't get noticed it's probably less your skill at disguise and more the casino's incompetence at identifying you.

Licentia.

I sense some angst in your post. No? Feel like making a citizens arrest? Wouldnt that be something. Having another player report you to the casino personel for counting.

[moo321]

Originally Posted by callipygian

If this is true, why do casinos ban counters at all, then? Mistaken impressions?

On some level, it HAS to be more profitable to ban than to allow, even if you limit bannings to the most obvious.

In addition, from a psychological perspective, it might be MORE profitable to ban bad counters, because bad counters take a banning as a badge of honor - and advertise their bad systems.

Some places today totally ignore counters. Some only consider banning at a certain betting level. Most will do a skill check to see if you actually know BS and can actually beat them.

But casinos, like most corporations, are not very logical, or efficient. That's why they do stupid things like deal with poor penetration, even though they'd make many times more money from the losers than the little extra edge they'd give counters. Never underestimate the power of bureaucracy!

[21forme]

Where were you yesterday?

Originally Posted by Licentia

I sat at two tables with a card counter yesterday. Perhaps he is one of you... Regardless, it was quite clear to me that he was a counter. I am well educated on the subject of course, and perhaps that is a reason why I can identify them so clearly. But his manner of betting was so clearly different than anyone else's at the table.

Casino's obviously put themselves in a bind. They must not want to educate their employees about counting lest they create one. It seems to me that if their employees were educated adequately that counters would be noticed immediately.

He was a fairly good counter I'd say, wonging out by leaving the table. He played two spots to keep his bets low as well.

I have noticed myself that leaving the tables too often draws attention though, especially because they want you to exchange your chips before you leave the table, and if the amount is high then the pit boss is called. If the pit boss keeps seeing you when s/he is called over when chips are changed, you are getting noticed. I still remember how one pit boss looked at me... On the other hand, Wonging out while remaining at the table is pretty obvious too.

Anyway, back to the original topic, I have to say that counters, even with your methods of disguise, do still appear completely different than the other players at the table. If you don't get noticed it's probably less your skill at disguise and more the casino's incompetence at identifying you.

Licentia.

[Count]

Just like almost eveything else with counting, playing under the radar goes both ways. If you are a legit counter and are good enough at it to make a profit time after time, you obviously learned how to hide it. I would put money on it that someone you have thought was a stupid lucky "tourist" was actually a counter who fooled not only you, but the casino and walked away with a profit. There are alot of ways to do this. One of the easiest ways I've learned is to only put out a small percentage of your play bank out on the table at a time and pocket the differences frequently. Eventually, you will lose (either cause of a bad count or a cover bet etc.) and you look like you are losing your money when you have to pull out more money to stay in your seat. I also have seen fellow counters pocket everything except for a fraction of their roll whenever a new dealer comes over. The possibilites are endless if you know how to do it. I've noticed that female counters have the advantage because the male dealers and pit bosses will almost always buy into the sexist "ditsy stupid girl who doesn't know how to play" bit if the female can pull it off. If I was a girl counter, I would exploit this to the best of my "non-abilites"

[moo321]

Originally Posted by Count

Just like almost eveything else with counting, playing under the radar goes both ways. If you are a legit counter and are good enough at it to make a profit time after time, you obviously learned how to hide it. I would put money on it that someone you have thought was a stupid lucky "tourist" was actually a counter who fooled not only you, but the casino and walked away with a profit. There are alot of ways to do this. One of the easiest ways I've learned is to only put out a small percentage of your play bank out on the table at a time and pocket the differences frequently. Eventually, you will lose (either cause of a bad count or a cover bet etc.) and you look like you are losing your money when you have to pull out more money to stay in your seat. I also have seen fellow counters pocket everything except for a fraction of their roll whenever a new dealer comes over. The possibilites are endless if you know how to do it. I've noticed that female counters have the advantage because the male dealers and pit bosses will almost always buy into the sexist "ditsy stupid girl who doesn't know how to play" bit if the female can pull it off. If I was a girl counter, I would exploit this to the best of my "non-abilites"

My wife has gotten away with absolute murder at the blackjack tables, and they ignore her because they assume women are stupid.