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Threads 421 to 450

message editing
Posted by BradRod on 20-Feb-2003 10:00:13 (#3190)

Will it be the practice to actively edit postings on this board under the new management ? It seems like messages are being deleted and threds of messages are being broken up with messages being removed or regrouped. Or is this just an effect of the change over ?

Re: message editing
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Feb-2003 10:10:31 (#3191)

I am in the process of transition between the two servers, and am fixing a number of problems, the NM has not been doing anything yet, it is just me, trying to get it shifted between two boxes.

Thanks for your patience, sorry.

--Mayor

Best wishes for a smooth transition *NM*
Posted by BradRod on 20-Feb-2003 10:24:38 (#3192)

CC back in the Fab 4
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Feb-2003 09:25:13 (#3197)

I took out BJMath to make room for CC. LVA is getting a lot of posting because it is new. That is normal. Lots of boards, but the usual green eggs and ham being served on a daily basis. ;> BJMath has awesome info at the site in its articles, but I find most of the posts less than informative from a math standpoint, which is what the board is supposed to be about.

http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/bjboards.htm

The Cat in the Hat

Re: CC back in the Fab 4
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Feb-2003 10:35:15 (#3198)

Nice looking page, as usual, good work Rob.

Re: CC back in the Fab 4
Posted by Learning to count on 21-Feb-2003 11:20:43 (#3199)

Now the Fab 4 can be called perfection. The four horseman of the casino apocalypse. I love it!

Fab 4 Horsemen and the 7-7-7 Seals
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Feb-2003 14:50:54 (#3201)

McRevelation 6

The Seals

1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest of all games.

3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one of hearts and diamonds. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword and bankroll.

5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse of clubs and spades! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine or the felt on the tables!"

7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named McGarvey, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the God fearing card counters of the earth.

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe from Ceasars, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed and barred from playing blackjack became complete.

12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every casino was removed from its foundation.

15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of Nevada and the mountains of the earth. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand against HIS advantage?"

Re: Fab 4 Horsemen and the 7-7-7 Seals
Posted by Learning to count on 21-Feb-2003 21:00:45 (#3202)

Okay.....and your point?

My Candy Store - Gettin Hot in Herrrrre!
Posted by SammyBoy on 22-Feb-2003 18:12:28 (#3206)

I recently played at my favorite spot during the early morning hours and was watched very closely by a pit boss I had not seen before. I could tell he was talking about me to his side kick, but I don't know what they were saying. I've played over a hundred hours at this joint and have never been watched like that the entire time. There was another person playing next to me who may very well have been a counter. If he was he used very heavy camo, probably too much. We didn't play together long enough for me to be sure but he was tipping way too much but took insurance every time I did. He also had some big bets out when I did. I'm hoping that they were watching this dude and not me. I had to alter my bets (as in not jumping immediately from min bet to max) too because of the heat. Maybe they're finally on to me, but all the other times I've played there, the pc's did not watch the games at all. Maybe this particular boss has more experience in looking for counters, I'm going back in a few days and will avoid this pit boss like the plague.

Re: My Candy Store - Gettin Hot in Herrrrre!
Posted by ZOD on 22-Feb-2003 20:38:24 (#3207)

What about going back asap to play in front of this guy? And while you're there, have a drink, ogle the waitresses, and make a few obvious mistakes with minimum bets out. Prove to him that you're not a threat and see how he reacts.
Best...
ZOD

good advice!
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Feb-2003 10:01:10 (#3209)

I agree. If you have a great store, one you want to return to a lot, it is worth a trip there NOT playing advantage play, just to establish yourself as a non-threat.

I have a friend who plays at a store in the San Diego area, I hope he considers this advice.

Mayor

That's a great idea! Thanks. *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Feb-2003 22:25:52 (#3216)

down time
Posted by Learning to count on 23-Feb-2003 06:48:28 (#3208)

I play four to five times year. Since I dont have casinos in my area. During my down time I practice my skills. I count down decks, Rememorize and practice basic stratgey, study my indices, play casino verite, and read other unread books on advantage play. I use AP sites to keep informed on the casino world and to learn from other AP's. I was just wondering what you guys do when not playing for extended periods of time.

Re: down time
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Feb-2003 10:03:12 (#3210)

*hang out on the Internet boards

*play other games (recently, a lot of Bridge, and I rejoined the local chess club)

*get involved politically and write letters to folks

but...

*I only practice b.j. for about 3 days before I go on a trip, to refresh the skills. Basically, the skill set is small regarding counting and indices, and the large part of the skill set (casino comportment) can only be practiced on site.

--Mayor

Re: down time
Posted by ZOD on 23-Feb-2003 11:26:27 (#3211)

Sounds like you're doing everything possible to keep yourself sharp between excursions. Out of curiosity, do you notice if it takes a little while to "get in the groove" when you walk into the casino after a layoff? I play pretty often, but some of my friends who only play a few times a year have mentioned this.
ZOD

Re: down time
Posted by Learning to count on 23-Feb-2003 13:19:18 (#3212)

<<Sounds like you're doing everything possible to keep yourself sharp between excursions. Out of curiosity, do you notice if it takes a little while to "get in the groove" when you walk into the casino after a layoff? I play pretty often, but some of my friends who only play a few times a year have mentioned this.>>
ZOD

Yep. After not playing for a couple of months it takes a few shoes to get in the groove. One thing I have found is to play single deck first. I have found that playing single deck for a few hours first then going to the shoes is a good warm up. Single deck is easy for me and I have had numerous successes at single deck. The only problem is when you spread to max bet on a plus cuont you get noticed and maybe get warm around the edges with the PC. Single deck is by far the best game in town but you just cant play long and spread big.

After I do get in the groove or zen as I like to call it I can do some amazing things such as walk by glances and just about see the count with out even actual counting in my head. When I get zenned I love to wong in medium crowds. It's even better with two or three buddies so we can call each other to a rising count at a table.

Your lucky to be able to play often. I always find myself wanting just one more hour to make more money. Sometimes you have to accept what you win I guess. I always get to McCarrin 1.5 hours before my flight. I missed it once due to an extended positive run. I love Blackjack! LTC

The "Zen"
Posted by ZOD on 23-Feb-2003 14:24:38 (#3213)

The "Zen". Funny you should use that term. I may play a half a dozen times a month, but rarely on successive days. This amount of play keeps me "in the groove", but only when play I several days in a row do I get the "Zen". To me, it's almost another level of awareness. I can keep the count on a couple of tables while discussing sports with the pit boss while sipping my crown and seven while watching another amazing body go by. If only the rest of life was so easy.

Come to think of it, I usually only play on successive days during Vegas trips. I wonder if it's the city itself that gives me the "Zen". Hmmmm. I better go check the air fares...

ZOD

Re: The "Zen"
Posted by Learning to count on 23-Feb-2003 15:30:44 (#3214)

Yep it is a deep feeling on intense focus. You are in this world but you are also in a bubble of awareness and on top of your game. Definately ZEN!

Master The Game
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Feb-2003 08:44:25 (#3217)

There are certain levels of "peace" that one can achieve in their chosen field of endeavor. You may remember the first day to sat down and began to learn basic strategy. Once you got that down you probably began to learn to count. Then you may have learned to get the TC down. Then you learned to match your bets to your expected advantage and bankroll. Possibly after that you began to learn a few indices and play departure became a part of your game. You became an actor to throw off the pit and crew. At that point you wanted something more and learned to track cards, or move to a level II count and start learning new index #'s.

At each level of "peace" we become ready for something more. We are not happy with this feeling. It's like having your in box and your out box empty. There must be something wrong when life gets like that. Enjoy these momments. In fact, you can become peace itself since peace is a feeling. Once you truely become a master, what goes on around you should not have an effect on this feeling.

No Downtime
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Feb-2003 20:05:08 (#3215)

I'm always playing online, so for me there is no true downtime. It's like practicing using different online programs and getting paid for it. I do need to take a run at it when I go play a real casino, but it comes naturally. Quick flip thru my flash cards a few runs thru two decks of cards, one of which has been stacked to shuffle track if I am playing multideck, and rob's yur uncle.

email address
Posted by Wyrstle on 24-Feb-2003 10:03:00 (#3218)

What is a good e-mail address to send messages directly to management rather than clutter the message boards with questions about site problems or to send sensitive information that we would not want to be public ?

Re: email address
Posted by New Management on 24-Feb-2003 19:57:19 (#3221)

cardcountermanagement@hotmail.com

KUDOS
Posted by Learning to count on 24-Feb-2003 10:25:33 (#3219)

The Bishop is kicking ass over at his new site. I am impressed! He has definitely given a jolt to the advantage player web site world. [CC.COM is still my home though!]

It is good that this re-emergence of such talent is available. Is this a Card Counting Rennaissance or is every one gearing up for a coming explosion of Blackjack fever after the MIT movie comes out. We shall see. Now if the casinos will get competitive and offer some rules/penetration! It could be interesting.

I wonder is blackjack still a good way to make money or are the Masters hyping the possibilities for the future. The theory of advantage play is still here but is it futile in the casino environment today. The casino's have found high tech ways to watch, calculate and are basically trying to ID AND CATCH AP's. So what kind of future do we have.

Will we be expert Counters with no exploitable games? Will the casinos loosen up to take advantage of the comming gambling fad? Are we are due for a profitable run?

MIT+ NEW WEBSITES+HYPE= ?GAMBLING EXPLOSION?

Time will tell. Whew Mr. Nacht and Mr. Wong better take notes the Bishop is hot and his site is free!!! The bishop may not be "competitive" but it sure looks like he is after the market! LTC

New Site, Same Green Eggs n Ham
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Feb-2003 14:25:45 (#3220)

I agree, his site is rocking. I'm sure that people that usually post here are doing so there, some under their handles here, and other use a different handle on every board they are on. This is typical of people wanting to be where the action is. No one wants to miss anything new. Arnie's site is free which is good, but it is only a matter of time before things change, like they have here, and at the CCC. We will see more and more commercial products added, and the real BJ info is behind closed doors just as it is at Wongs, but in the cunning disguise called the BJForum editions, which are also for sale. It's always free to walk into Walmart and look around, get free perfume samples, and eat a few free cookies. Hopefully you be having such a good time you may spend some $. Instead of getting $100 for POM, you'll get Cellini's $100 book which costs less than $10 to make. Once you read that you can duck and cover all the way past every eye and PB known to man. Or a free copy of BJF.

The MIT hype is the same as the Ken Uston hype, although it is all truth (??) Hype brings in new players, posters, and losers. Hype does not create winners. People that see thru the hype are able to see the gravy, and it's the same old gravy you been putting on your mashed potatoes since you could hold the laddle.

Re: New Site, Same Green Eggs n Ham
Posted by hinoon on 24-Feb-2003 20:08:18 (#3223)

FYI - "Bringing Down the House" isn't slated for release any time soon. They have yet to announce any talent attachments other than Spacey, have no screenwriter attached, and are supposed to announce a production schedule March 7th. Even if the film gets fast-tracked...you can expect to wait about a year for a release, given the inevitable development/casting/pre-production/shooting/post-production hassles that a movie shot in Vegas will entail.

So I doubt that the hype plays into the current atmosphere.

Re: New Site, Same Green Eggs n Ham
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Feb-2003 21:20:50 (#3226)

About a year? Hmmmmmm. Perhaps we should all chip in on a Christmas gift for Mr. Ebert.

Re: New Site, Same Green Eggs n Ham
Posted by hinoon on 24-Feb-2003 21:53:28 (#3227)

A year would be an absolute minimum, in my opinion, unless for some reason MGM *really* pushes it forward. Development can take a LONG time. Statistically, feature films take around 5-6 years to make it from concept to screen. Made for TV movies take between 4-5 years. It's not uncommon for a project to be in the works for 10 years before it sees the light of day. Given the star power of Spacey and the publicity of the book, it's certainly a project with momentum. But it still has to be adapted into a screenplay, which can take many months, (and then go through a series of re-writes, notes sessions and final polishes) before it even goes into casting and pre-production. Hollywood is well known for its "hurry-up-and-wait" game.

If anything, it'll be fun to track the project's progress. Who knows, maybe it'll be rushed through and released in June. My estimations are based solely on available information about the project's status...and since I don't work at MGM or Trigger Street...I may be totally wrong. *shrug* But for now, I don't think the movie has much relevance to the playing conditions.

Re: New Site, Same Green Eggs n Ham
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Feb-2003 21:56:13 (#3228)

Just a joke, Hi

Re: New Site, Same Green Eggs n Ham
Posted by hinoon on 24-Feb-2003 22:30:02 (#3232)

Hehe

Sorry, long day at the office, time to go home.

*ducks head back into shell*

Movie Tracking *LINK*
Posted by Wyrstle on 25-Feb-2003 03:51:49 (#3235)

A good site for tracking the progress of movies is http://www.corona.bc.ca in the coming attractions movie listings area. (Link below)wit

What you really need is a working title for the project, nothing curently shows up there with the same title as the book.

And oh yeah....if you think casinos are fruit and nuts, wait till you see some of the titles and concepts up there.

Wyrstle

Wet Feet
Posted by JR on 24-Feb-2003 19:58:26 (#3222)

Reno trip--arrived BTown at 11pm--played 1 deck for 3 hrs (+ 5 units), sleep, next day-- played 5 hours in the pm (+ 10 units), drove to Atlantis to play 1 deck for 1 hr (- 1 unit), Peppermill for 1 hr (- 2 units), back to BTown to play 3 hrs in the wee hrs (+ 2 units), sleep, moved hotels, out to Sparks to play at Nugget, Silver Club, and Western Village--say 3 hours total (+ 8 units), sleep, next day--played DOA 2 deck games at various venues 'in town' due to lack of 1 deck game to be found except for a few tables in Cal Neva--total of 8 hours (+ 8 units), back to BTown for comped steak & lobster buffet (due to wife's slots and non AP BJ play) played 2 hrs (-1 unit), sleep, 3rd day played all over the place including 1st ever BJ tournament--$20 buy-in and lost pitifully, total play about 6 hours (+ 1 unit). Played only $20 of matchplays which is unusual for me as in Vegas I have lots and lots to play.

Here are some of my observations--I found the 2 deck game to be as beneficial in terms of ease of play as the 1 deck game and this was good to know as my intention had been to just play 1 deck since there is so much in Reno. The only 'heat' I experienced was when I was 'almost' dead sure that the PC's in about 3 of the places were 'staring' at me for minutes on end--but not up close--just back at their post so to speak--I would just glance at them and otherwise give no reaction whatsoever. Also, this 'staring' occurred when I played for extended periods of time--over 1 hour at the same table--I think I will move around more the next time out. I thought the whole atmosphere in BTown was very relaxed and the staff were extrordinarily friendly and no 'staring' either. In the 1 hour of play at the Peppermill--both dealers I had were upnoxious. The new "Phoenix", as I understand it used to be the Flamingo, seemed to be a nice middle of the road place with a relaxed atmosphere also and was probably my 2nd favorite venue after BTown.

So, all in all, for the 1st time out, I think it went quite well. Any/all comments will be appreciated.

Re: Wet Feet
Posted by learning to count on 24-Feb-2003 20:11:20 (#3224)

Sounds like you had a great time. Was the penetration ro5,6 or 7. Were you able to get heads up games and what time of the day was the best time to play. Were you playing red or green. What count are ya using????

As far as heat I dont think they were really on to you and if they were so what. What I mean is your were not winning black chips were you? When we go in to single deck clubs we usually do well and it is obvious we are skilled players. They always stare. THey get froggy if we start getting out of hand such as spreading two dollars to 35 dollars. Then they may start prefferential shuffles when we jump our bets. As far as agressive behavior such as being barred or trespassed I have never seen it at low limit games. I have seen it at the black chip tables. I have never been to northern nevada. One of these days.

Re: Wet Feet
Posted by JR on 24-Feb-2003 22:20:19 (#3230)

I have been wondering how the 'rule of (x) works?? I've seen it written about but don't know how it works so could someone explain that to me? As far as pen goes, for the 1 deck, if there were 4 or more players, then 2 rounds and that's it; for the 2 deck game, the deck was dealt down to at least 65% and a lot of times it was more but I can't remember just how much at which casinos and of course varied somewhat amongst dealers. Re: heads up play--it was available in the wee hours and also at other times and again this varied from casino to casino. Of course, on Fri and Sat evenings when the place is jumping, then it was harder to find empty or near empty tables and if I did start out at one, invariably other players would soon join in.

I was using the Hi-Lo count and employing as many of the indices as I could remember while 'on the go'. Mainly the ones like 16 v 10, 12 v 2, 13 v 2, etc, but the one that I seemed to have a hard time with that comes up quite often is ins and it seemed like I wouldn't be thinking of it and then the dealer would ask and my brain wouldn't kick in in time before ins was closed. Got to work on that one.

I was betting & spreading very conservatively so you're probably right about the PC's 'just looking'. Anyways, am looking forward to Vegas in 3 weeks to try again.

Re: Wet Feet
Posted by Learning to count on 25-Feb-2003 17:25:54 (#3244)

Rule of six. A policy followed by many casinos at single deck. They require a dealer to deal five rounds to one player, four rounds to two players, three rounds to three players and two rounds to four players. Some casinos carry this rule to the extreme and only deal one round to five or more players.*

Basically in order to get a good game at single deck you need a heads up game and to get a minimum of five rounds dealt to you. If you find such a game and they will tolerate a 1-6 or better 7 spread. Then you can get good pen at single deck by playing two hands in pos counts or just play two hands any way. My personal experience is a lot of ro5 games heads up. ro6 is out there and can be found. ro7 is rare but I have played at healthy games;but not the norm. I suggest betting healthy at first so they think that be your normal betting height is healthy. I usually will start with 3 or 4 units and bet minimum at neg counts after and spread to max at the appropriate TC. I have been successful at the touchy heat joints. They will really get nervous if you start with a single unit bet then jump to max and win win win! Oh and single deck dont play more than an hour to an hour and a half at the same joint. IF YOUR LOSING THEN HELL HANG OUT LONGER. LTC

*PER BJ21.COM GLOSSARY/STANFORD WONG.

Re: Wet Feet
Posted by JR on 25-Feb-2003 17:32:58 (#3245)

Thanks for the explanation and by the way...I always enjoy reading your posts.

Very Basic Question - Indices?
Posted by hinoon on 24-Feb-2003 20:23:01 (#3225)

Can someone explain to me what "indices" are and how to read the tables?

I know it's a green question. But I'm a green player...in the plant sense, not the chip sense. I have a vague idea that the indices are the decision changes to basic strategy based on the TC. But I have no idea how to read the charts supplied here...and no idea what people mean when they say they are learning 50+ indices.

*trying not to be a ploppy*

Indices?
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 25-Feb-2003 02:46:42 (#3233)

"Indices" (pronounced in-die-ceez) is the plural term for "index", which is basically a reference point of some kind, in our case it is an integer that tells us when to deviate from BS. Now, at what point around the index you should deviate (ie. <1 or <=1?) depends on how your indices were calculated, which very roughly speaking, is how they were rounded. Any good set of indices will explain how to implement them most effectively.

ANS

more info... *LINK*
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 25-Feb-2003 03:01:24 (#3234)

...this may help.

Re: more info...
Posted by hinoon on 25-Feb-2003 10:49:41 (#3239)

That was exactly the help I needed. Thanks for the explanation and the link!

How to pronounce "hinoon"
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Feb-2003 18:16:52 (#3246)

I always have been saying it "heh-noon" but now I think it should be "high-noon"

Your help is appreciated 8-0

--Mayor

Think "Gary Cooper"...High Noon :) *NM*
Posted by HiNoon on 25-Feb-2003 19:31:43 (#3247)

Interesting post down below!
Posted by Learning to count on 25-Feb-2003 07:15:11 (#3236)

I saw this this morning; could be a troll or could be true. If it is true Ihope he will post more and share his feelings and ideas of card counters.

Re: BE careful!

Posted By: EyeSpy
Date: 2/24/03 8:09:01 p.m.

In Response To: BE careful! (Learning to count)

I don't know what all the fuss is about; I think some people on this board are being paranoid. I mean get real, I work in surveillance, I can count just like the rest of you, I don�t need a computer to tell me you are counting, I don�t need your email address to figure that out. I just want to watch your play. If you consistently go with the count you�re a counter, throw all that mumbo jumbo play and your wasting your %. Play like you have some�.. See you from the sky.

Re: Interesting post down below!
Posted by SammyBoy on 25-Feb-2003 09:48:40 (#3237)

Where was this originally posted?

Re: Interesting post down below!
Posted by Learning to count on 25-Feb-2003 09:56:54 (#3238)

This was in a thread started by the Mayor. This is the title:

"By the way... (views: 113)"
"The Mayor -- 2/12/03 7:13:15 a.m."

Here it Is.....
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 25-Feb-2003 13:04:56 (#3243)

It's easier just to put up a link to it and save the group 1000 man hours of searching......smile

http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?noframes;read=3229

Re: Interesting post down below!
Posted by EyeSpy on 28-Feb-2003 03:01:02 (#3278)

I am not a troll�.. Don�t ask me to prove it, I not going to waist my time by doing so. I wish I could give you some insight into surveillance, I�m sorry I can�t � the post that I responded to - simply got carried away about people on the outside looking in, I guess that would be me�. I just said they were over-reacting� Yes we are here � we do read too, but I�m at home drinking a beer � I don�t feel like taking notes, and like my wife always says �you don�t know everything�� I get paid to protect the casino�s money (AT WORK)

We actively look for counters, and other. I�ve seen some of the best in the field � most of the time they get backed off. We do share information with one another. Just think twice before using a computer during play, or the new tech stuff coming out � you can�t go to jail for counting, but you will with a device. We have a lot of information at our disposal � I use this to my advantage. I wish I can answer stuff you are dying to know. I would like to keep my job easy and if I tell you things, you could make my job harder�.. I will say this, counters stand out � their play is not the norm of an AVERAGE/BELOW AVERAGE player. Why is it YOU can spot other counters on the same table lol, same differance� And for me to catch you, I can start counting anywhere in the shoe, if you don't understand this, go back to chapter one � I don�t have to start counting in the beginning like you. Don't ask me any questions, they will go unanswered.

Re: Interesting post down below!
Posted by Learning to count on 28-Feb-2003 07:45:04 (#3280)

We do not get a lot of Casino personel posting here so any such posts make me suspicious. Like I also said we are happy for you to be involved in this discourse. I understand about your position and I respect your point. I dont agree with the casino view on advantage play nor do I agree with the over reaction in treatment that is given or displayed against a winning player card counter or not. I guess I still believe if you are offering a game then you are offering a chance to win. So if a person learns to play that game with brain power and wins why is he branded a thief? I agree with the cheating laws about card daubbing, micro computer play, bait and switch, mirrors, etc.etc.

You have to agree that some of the anti-card counter tactics have gone overboard. Even you have to agree that the tactics involved are violating civil and privacy rights such as illegal detainment, sharing of financiel information, Battery, falsified statements on probable cause affidavids...the list goes on. I acknowledge that the casino has the right to trespass any one "without a reason". This is a state law there and similar laws have been in effect in numerous if not all states. It is for the protection of business and a owners protection to run his business as he seems fit. It is balanced by the business owner wanting to attract business.(You cant kick out for civil rights reasons the business can be federally sued and even face federal criminal chages.) In the old days they simply beat up the counters. I guess when it comes to money its a green felt jungle out there.

Hey its a battle of wits and sometimes it is fun; But there has to be some fairness. I myself am glad you have posted here and I welcome you to continue. I understand that you cannot give out Casino secrets nor would I wish that you put your job in jeapordy. If you have a chance go to arnold snyders black jack forum (http://www.bjfonline.com/) and check out the Cellini heat report discussion page. Cellini is a casino security expert who has disclosed much of the casino security world. It is an interesting section over there and you may see that these topics are discussed openly.

Re: Interesting post down below!
Posted by eyespy on 01-Mar-2003 15:57:37 (#3297)

I do agree with you LTC, it's not my casino - I just work at one. But come on - If you figured out how to get a free drink at a coke machine and told someone how to do it, and they told someone, etc. How could the coke machine survive? If everybody learned to count, shuffle track, do you think the BJ tables would still be open. I didn�t invent blackjack, Al Gore did. Counting to me is just now getting recognized, and I guess once it is understood by the majority, the house will change the rules. Smarter people wrote the rules for the casino, and smarter people then �them� have analyzed the advantage of proper play with counting.

Re: Interesting post down below!
Posted by Learning to count on 02-Mar-2003 08:01:01 (#3306)

""I do agree with you LTC, it's not my casino - I just work at one. But come on - If you figured out how to get a free drink at a coke machine and told someone how to do it, and they told someone, etc. How could the coke machine survive?
If everybody learned to count, shuffle track, do you think the BJ tables would still be open. I didn�t invent blackjack, Al Gore did. Counting to me is just now getting recognized, and I guess once it is understood by the majority, the house will change the rules. Smarter people wrote the rules for the casino, and smarter people then �them� have analyzed the advantage of proper play with counting""

Intersting point but I have to disagree. If a person did take the "free drink" it would be THEFT which is a violation of a state criminal statute. Card counting as you stated is not as crime. The coke machine/casinos are surviving quite well and would do so with or with out a classic BJ game. The reason that BJ survives is because it is popular and it draws people to the casino. Blackjack is a classic american casino game. It is part of classic las vegas and was popularized here in the US. In Europe they were still dealing Baccarat with canoe paddles and happily playing roulette.

Blackjack was made popular first by Thorp, Beat The Dealer" then by the numerous masters of advantage play that followed after. So why do the casinos have such an negative aggressive attitude towards us. Out of the millions of players out there only a few thousand are actually good enough to win. Come on the casinos are killing the degenerates with all the other carnival games including BJ. So why do the casinos go after the card counter to the extent that they do. I belive it is out of ignorance and greed. They just do not know how hard it is to win with counting. Their bean counter greed feeds thier IMHO is what drives thier paranoia to protect the bottom line.

I do believe the casinos have the right to trespass any person from the property with out a cause. This is state law. I do think there are issues with this trespass tactic as far as having a business that is granted a license by the government and is supposedly under strict governmental regulation and standards. That such licensing which in fact is by the will of the state which power is given by the the public to benefit the public can pick and choose who to kick out. Is not that chosen person a part of the public. This is something that will have to be looked at by higher legal authorities. Like I said if a consumer is in the casino and actually cheating then arrest him, charge him, judge him and if guilty imprison him. If another player is winning with pure brain power then what will the casinos do; beat him up? I think when these issues finally, and they will, are finally brought forth it could mean the end of Blackjack as we know it. I know the casinos will not give in.

I think that current conditions are bad for the pro-Advantage Players but there are still a few games available for mid range play and plenty of positive value games for low to mid value. The only thing I fear is that this current hi tech approach to defeating card counting will and is currently destroying the game for Advantage Player and Ploppy alike. This could hurt the casino as well. Even you may have to aggree that there is a symbiotic like association with casino and player. Oops look at the time I am going to get off of my milk crate and go and memorize more play indices.

See Eye we can communicate on issues that will not endanger either of us or our jobs. Please continue the debate so both side can learn. LTC

Smarter?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-Mar-2003 09:47:55 (#3311)

I really don't think that the casino is smarter than a counter is. This is rather evident in the way they treat us. They will bully us down or change the rules, which is the same old way the school bully used to play. Back in the day, the bully usually got the cream of corn kicked out his ass for pulling stunts like that. Y'all think you can come down on us and walk out the back employee door and go home and leave it at work because you have cameras telling you what we ate for breakfast the day before. Y'all better get useta having a camera pointed at you when you come out the employee door, cuz outside of your controlled environment? You're just an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill.

Some counters do it as a hobby and you can scare them off. Some need the $$ like you do, but they have no benefit plan.

Say CHEESE.

Re: Smarter?
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Mar-2003 09:53:48 (#3319)

I agree with you on one point. That they choose a dumb way to handle any winners. The casinos do have the money to hire smart people to figure out what is going on and why some win and some don't. I am sure that they they know that card counting is no guaranteed "PROFIT"! Why they act as they do is mind boggling. I mean out of the 1 million AP players out there how many are actually hurting the the profits of any Casino? The stats are out there to show that less than half a percent of all AP'S are really making it big. Besides teams like MIT and others who is really killing the bottom line out there anyway. It sure is not me! Hell if I make 1200 -1500 I am doing great. Lately I have been leaving in the hole right around my Neg. Div. point! If it was'nt for the comps all would be lost!

PS Why they aggressively attack any type of winner shows that they are stupid. Gambling as defined is taking a wagered risk. The casinos see it as we paying for the opportunity to be entertained by losing the mortgage payment.

exactly
Posted by hammer on 04-Mar-2003 10:45:45 (#3324)

The pit crew should try to play if they think its that easy
to make money,because it is not. They should realize that playing
is easy and even if you have all the indicies memorized it is of
no guarantee.The hard part is knowing when to leave. Many skilled
players wanted to stay to make a touch more and have given it all
back and more, for there is no exact rules for quitting.

E-mail address for cc.com ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Management on 25-Feb-2003 11:30:17 (#3241)

cardcountermanagement@hotmail.com

Re: E-mail address for cc.com
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 25-Feb-2003 13:01:40 (#3242)

You should install this email in the left side bar. It will get burried under the posts like this. May I suggest that you move Eli's picture down the bar and put pertinent info there, like move Home Page, BJ Message Board, Non-BJ Message Board up under wecome to CC.com. In the Mayor's podium may I suggest he puts his picture along with his messages of wisdom. You may want to change the copyright info to 2003 at the bottom of the left side bar.

If you would like, I can do the HTML work for you.

Email for the Mayor?
Posted by hinoon on 26-Feb-2003 16:01:39 (#3254)

I'm guessing that the Mayor's contact info isn't the same anymore now that the tides have shifted.

Any way to contact you Mayor?

Re: Email for the Mayor?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 26-Feb-2003 16:32:25 (#3255)

Go to the very bottom of this page to where it says

CardCounter.Com
Main Message Board
is maintained by The Mayor with WebBBS 5.11.

and click on The Mayor. All of these links should be front and center. At Yahoo all you have to do is click on the persons alias and you can email them right away.

Re: Email for the Mayor?
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Feb-2003 19:04:42 (#3257)

Actually, that email address doesn't work any more. I cancelled it -- the current management will fix that eventually 8-)

To contact me, you can send me email at teliot@cs.ucsb.edu

Best,

--Mayor

Re: Email for the Mayor?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 26-Feb-2003 20:47:39 (#3258)

Was not sure that one was still public info so didn't mention it.

Backed off years ago - will they remember?
Posted by sprettster on 25-Feb-2003 21:43:32 (#3248)

Several years ago I got backed off (not trespassed, just "you're welcome to play any other game...") at the Reno Peppermill and Atlantis. At both places I was getting comped RFB for green SD play, and I was using my real name. Since then I've played anonymously everywhere, fearing that my name would have been shared with other casinos, by Griffin or however else, and I would be immediately ejected from every place that recognized my name. This makes it tough to play for comps or high stakes unless I go the fake ID route.

Of course, when everybody's out to get you, paranoia is just good thinking. But then, I've heard that the Peppermill and Atlantis don't subscribe to Griffin, and I don't really know if casinos otherwise share info. I'd expect that I can never again identify myself in places where I've been backed off, but how about other places? Any ideas?

Thanks,

sprettster

Re: Backed off years ago - will they remember?
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Feb-2003 00:50:40 (#3249)

I have played so many times at places I have been backed-off, it is hard to count them all.

I have been backed-off at the Horseshoe on 4 different occasions.

The number of times I have been backed-off at the EC is also large.

I have also gone back after being backed-off at a number of other places, including the MGM and Strat.

These guys have new photos and flyers coming through each day, if you just politely leave without making a scene, they will forget your face within a month.

--Mayor

Re: Backed off years ago - will they remember?
Posted by sprettster on 26-Feb-2003 01:25:06 (#3250)

Thanks, Mayor. Do you use a tracking card in your real name in any of the places that you've been backed off?

It seems to me that the PC who kicks me out would record that in my computer file. They might forget my face quickly, but if I go back a year later and hand them a tracking card when I sit down to play then I'm 86'd in a hurry when the computer remembers me. Am I being too paranoid, or giving the casinos too much credit? And what is the likelihood that they would have somehow shared my name with other casinos?

thx,

sprettster

Re: Backed off years ago - will they remember?
Posted by Alexander Mundy on 27-Feb-2003 20:22:19 (#3272)

Don't use a tracking card. I've been backed off 3 times and 86'd twice at the Peppermill in about 100 hrs of play. One backoff was between the barrings and I was in "disguise" (hat on backwards and sunglasses). The second barring was a few years after the first and they knew my real name, even tho I used a fake name without a players card. Just last week I was backed off at the Horizon (South Lake Tahoe) for the second time. The first time was over 4 years ago and they knew my real name - even tho I acted like I didn't know what or who he was talking about. I used a card at the Atlantis a few months after a backoff and they came down and backed me off again immediately. It's hard (impossible) to predict what will happen in any playing session, both in terms of results or in reaction to your play.

Re: Backed off years ago - will they remember?
Posted by Mister M on 26-Feb-2003 03:29:17 (#3251)

I trust that you were spreading 1-20 on sd rather than 1-8 4.0/6 then?
And can you also confirm that your playing sessions were at least 2 hours?

C'mon Elliot, share some of your back-off experieves. I bet that they were often hilarious to say the least!

Re: Backed off years ago - will they remember?
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Feb-2003 09:44:32 (#3252)

Hmmm... curious idea, sharing my backoffs...

I'll share more later, but here is one...

I was playing the lone SD game at the Four Queens, and I had been having a poor trip, down about 100 units. That game, as you may know, uses a cut card. I had been playing head's up about an hour, two hands, getting 3 rounds, which is poor. I kept losing there. Finally I told the dealer "this is my last deck here, could you put the cut card lower", and he did, about 8 cards from the bottom! Well, the counts shoots up and I have my max bet out after 2 rounds. I keep winning, and winning, and finally the last round comes, there are about 10 cards left, and the TC must be 20 or so, so I put out everything I can stomach into two circles, with the boss watching. Effectively, I spread 30-1 on single deck. I get two snappers, while the dealer turns over a 6 (the last low card) -- and I let out a small cheer for my huge comeback on this last deck, announcing that "it is a good time to leave." The boss comes over to me and says "you got that right!"

--Mayor

LOL! *NM*
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 26-Feb-2003 17:15:05 (#3256)

Re: Thanks for sharing these Eliot *NM*
Posted by Mister M on 27-Feb-2003 17:15:45 (#3270)

And then there was the time
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Feb-2003 16:33:40 (#3268)

I was playing head's up double deck against this Black Dealer, the guy is about 6 foot 5, maybe 350 pounds, and he has a Jamaican accent. Every time I raised my bet with the count he laughed in the maniacal voodoo laugh that means he knows that you know he knows. He just kept that up until the boss came over and counted down a deck, then gave me the boot. It was creepy.

Oh yes, and...
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Feb-2003 16:37:08 (#3269)

There was the time at the El Cortez that I sat there flat betting $25, but I was the biggest fish in there by a long way. I was dressed all wrong, slacks and a nice shirt, a wool coat -- real college prof stuff. There were 3 bosses watching me, in shifts, so I made some mistakes, and tried to duff it up. Finally, I just got tired of the chirade, so the count got high and I bet a max bet, and got a blackjack. One bet that wasn't $25, and I got the boot.

--Mayor

geez, unbelievable *NM*
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 01-Mar-2003 05:27:01 (#3292)

And one final one...
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Feb-2003 18:11:23 (#3271)

Though there are MANY more, here is another backoff...

I was playing at the Flamingo last trip, I found a head's up shoe, and played it at the minimum, since it went negative early. At the end of the shoe the PB came up to me and asked if I wanted to be rated. "No, I am just cruising the strip, thanks, but all those cards are hard to keep track of." Then another PB came up to me and said: "We don't want your card." What? I didn't get it at first, so I asked him what he meant. "We don't want your card, and we don't want your action here. After all, we're running a business, sir."

I felt really dirty after that one. I hated it.

It turns out I was flyered by Griffin (according to a private source).

--Mayor

Another thought
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Feb-2003 10:37:54 (#3253)

There is another thought on this I had, that I want to share. If you are considering doing this professionally, you have to be a lot more careful. You want to stay out of Griffin, not get yourself flyered, and otherwise remain a non-person as much as possible. If you have more serious intentions about BJ as a profession, please do be careful about going back.

--Mayor

Re: .....Backed off........
Posted by BradRod on 27-Feb-2003 16:17:30 (#3267)

My experience with heat consists of 2 separate times where I was possibly being a little too obvious to the dealer when I first started counting. In one case the dealer remarked,, "You're counting the cards". The other time a dealer said "if you werent counting the cards you'd be able to decide how to play your hand". But in neither case did the dealer say anyhting to anyone elseor say anything more about it.

The one time it was a pit person who seemed to notice he kept telling the dealer to call out the cards and hand totals as he was dealing. I took this be a way to make the dealer mess up my count and make it harder for me to keep it in my head. Even with that he did not seem to take my threat too seriously and I have continued to play there without any more heat that I am aware of.

Sometimes if I think I am being watched by a pit person I take care to notice if it is really me they are intersted in. Often it is the dealer who they are actually keeping watch over

Cost of Deck Estimation Errors
Posted by AcesFool on 26-Feb-2003 22:16:11 (#3260)

Does anyone know what would be the loss in EV due to incorrect deck estimations when using high-low. For instance, if I average being off by 1 in an 8 deck shoe how much EV would this cost?

I realize High-Lo outperforms KO, but I'm skeptical about being able to be 100% accurate in estimating remaning decks down to the nearest half. In practical application does High-Lo still outperform KO or is this just theoretical based on perfect true counts.

mainly for 8D, dealt 6 deep. DOA, DAS, LS
I know this isn't a good game, to put it mildly, but its the best i have access to at the moment

Re: Cost of Deck Estimation Errors
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 26-Feb-2003 23:07:16 (#3261)

I had the same doubts about my ability to estimate remaining cards. What I did was this:

I bought a clear discard tray online for 9 bucks, put a piece of masking tape along the back with with .5 deck graduations on it.

I drilled by grabbing a clump of cards, putting them in the tray. I checked my estimations by just turning the tray a bit so I could seee the tape. After a couple of 40(ish) minute sessions I was consistently accurate within a few cards. Just make sure you use new cards that aren't fluffed up.

-Felix

also, use casino cards *NM*
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 26-Feb-2003 23:30:00 (#3263)

Common sense, I guess
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 04-Mar-2003 22:26:41 (#3330)

Oh yea, and not the ones they sell in the gift shops with a hole drilled through them. (Like in Canada)It leaves a lip that makes them fluff. The liquor store on Freemont street sells them where the edges have been rounded. Mine are from the Bellagio.

I guess I took this to a bit of an extreme. I figured the cards that I bought were at the end of their casino lifecycle... their fluffiest playable state. Factor in any fluffieness produced by the grinding wheel that rounded off the corners?... Very clean job. No noticeable lip. A good squish will simulate a virgin pack.

So, my piece of masking tape has two marks for each half-deck of resolution. One as they sat loosely when I counted them. And, the other as I forcibly squished them into the tray. The range between the two gets slightly larger as the number of decks increases. But not much at all. Maybe two cards as it hits 6 decks (from 1 deck).

-Felix

Some casinos offer unmodified cards
Posted by T-Hopper on 05-Mar-2003 00:39:58 (#3334)

I think I have got some with no holes or shaved corners at the Horseshoe before.

re: deck est., KO v. Hi-Lo, etc...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 26-Feb-2003 23:28:14 (#3262)

"Does anyone know what would be the loss in EV due to incorrect deck estimations when using high-low. For instance, if I average being off by 1 in an 8 deck shoe how much EV would this cost?"

I'm not sure what you are alluding to by saying "off by one". What I can tell you is that with sloppier deck estimation win rate MAY ACTUALLY GO UP. This is due to the slight overbetting that occurs, but is of course outweighed by the increase in variance.

"I realize High-Lo outperforms KO..."

A common misconception.

"...but I'm skeptical about being able to be 100% accurate in estimating remaining decks down to the nearest half."

100% accuracy is of course not necessary. Being able to estimate within +/- 6 cards will more than suffice.

"In practical application does High-Lo still outperform KO or is this just theoretical based on perfect true counts."

As I hinted before, I have plenty of conclusive sim data that shows KO in running count mode outperforming Hi-Lo over a broad range of common conditions. Yes, there are a couple instances where Hi-Lo edges KO out very slightly, but as you presumed, this will be nullified, and then some, by the effect of errors.

One more point, if you did want to progress to TC conversion in the future, there is no reason to avoid KO, as it can be TC'ed just as Hi-Lo can, in fact easier.

There really isn't a need to differentiate between balanced and unbalanced. Either one can be used in TC or RC form, it just so happens (for obvious reasons) that unbalanced performs better in RC mode. As Pete Moss used to say, "There is no such thing as a balanced count."

"...mainly for 8D, dealt 6 deep. DOA, DAS, LS
I know this isn't a good game, to put it mildly, but its the best i have access to at the moment."

In that case, I would highly recommend the Red Sevens count. It is a simple unbalanced RC mode system that provides the optimal pivot point for backcounting ease, as well as accuracy. If wonging is not an option similar results can be achieved by aggressive table departure.

ANS

Question
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Feb-2003 10:37:42 (#3266)

Do you know Pete Moss?

Re: Question
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 27-Feb-2003 23:11:09 (#3275)

Unfortunately no, I haven't had the pleasure of knowing Pete. From what I understand you were (still are?) a friend of his, Mayor, are you still in touch with him? From what I heard he started getting serious with a "real" job sometime in '99 and was cutting down his BJ play. I've learned alot from his old posts, he truly was one of the few genuine innovators of the game in the last ten years, IMO.

ANS

Re: Question
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Feb-2003 00:58:03 (#3276)

Yes, Pete and I are good friends. He has always had a real job, and was a theorist more than anything in BJ. One of the most brilliant individuals I have ever met, we have known each other since 1983. Other that BJ, he also is a superb Sax player, a great poker/backgammon/chess player, a poet, a screen writer, an artist (painter), and of course a skilled Computer Scientist. And when I say that he has these skills, that is an understatement. He is world class in many of them.

--Mayor

Wow...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 28-Feb-2003 03:50:54 (#3279)

...and I thought he was just a great BJ theorist, lol. Does he still play? And does he still contribute to any the paid forums, GC perhaps?

ANS

Re: re: deck est., KO v. Hi-Lo, etc...
Posted by CanKen on 04-Mar-2003 17:57:24 (#3328)

ANS:
The last line in the above post got my attention. I use KO with exit counts at each deck level equivalent to about TC<=-1. I've been trying to estimate the increase in EV or DI or SCORE compared to "play all" . I assume the values would be greater than "play all" but less than for "wonging". Neither BJA2 nor BJRM2002 gives me an answer. What's your opinion?

CK...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 04-Mar-2003 23:43:48 (#3331)

To get a good idea of what you are asking, check out T-Hopper's awesome free e-book, "T-H Basic BJ", it has some great system reports including play-all, backcounting, and table departure, as well as various spreads. Check out pages 60-63 specifically, but if you don't have a good understanding of the figures used, read the text, T-H gives an excellent summary of everything.

ANS

Re: Cost of Deck Estimation Errors
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Feb-2003 09:47:58 (#3264)

In shoe games it costs almost nothing to be off by 1/2 deck, or even a full deck. Suppose you have a RC of 14 with 5 decks out. The correct TC is 14/5 = 2 (using the "floor" method). If you evaluate it as 4 decks you get a TC of 14/4 = 3. If you evaluate it as 6 decks out you get a RC of 14/6 = 2. The cost of being consistently off by one index number is negligible over your lifetime.

In pitch games, because strategy deviation is such a big factor, correct conversion of wildly fluctuating TC's is a must, and failure to be accurate can cost a bundle.

--Mayor

Re: Cost of Deck Estimation Errors
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Feb-2003 10:36:48 (#3265)

You might also read this essay I posted...

http://www.cardcounter.com/Essays/Mistakes.htm

New to the site
Posted by chicagoslim on 27-Feb-2003 20:30:14 (#3273)

Love the site!
I have come for the wealth of knowledge. I have been training on the hi-lo per wong's books. Any advice for a rookie? I lost enough investing in the markets. Thats all just pseudo science anyways right? :)
Smart money always wins.

Thanks

Welcome Slim...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 27-Feb-2003 23:03:03 (#3274)

Good to have you here. You can start by checking out the great info archived in the frame to your left. The Mayor's and guest's essays, the "Best Posts", etc. all have invaluable info in them. Also, be sure to utilize the search feature on the main board here. You can usually find the answer to most general queries there, and anything more specific we'll be glad to help you out with. Enjoy.

ANS

Re: New to the site
Posted by Learning to count on 28-Feb-2003 08:11:05 (#3281)

Welcome and its about time you joined up CUZ! Now its a family thing; "familia nostra".

Velcome In
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 28-Feb-2003 08:32:32 (#3284)

Money is never smart, and it is also not the root of all evil. It's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil, and you stick around here long enough, you'll get so smart the money will fly into your pockets so fast you'll feel like you've got long johns on!!

Welcome Detroit! 7-2?? OUCH

BJA 2nd ed.
Posted by Coug It on 28-Feb-2003 01:34:00 (#3277)

Just picked it up and I'm liking what I see. I have to vehemently disagree with something I came across early on. Re. the theory that you should NEVER increase a wager after a losing hand.

In my former days as a ploppy, I often would increase my bet (many times 4-5x my previous wager) out of what was basically anger and the feeling that the dealer just had to lose a hand, eventually.

I actually use this same scenario now as a cover play, while saying something like, "OK, its time to get serious" or "You just gotta lose one sometimes".

I welcome your thoughts.

Don's "never"s...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 28-Feb-2003 08:24:09 (#3282)

...are merely his educated opinions. I tend to think, from what I have heard of them, that they apply more to the high stakes player. For example, Don also says "never" play single deck, which many people will disagree with. But this is probably sound advice for the high stakes player that doesn't have an act like Ian Anderson. As for raising after a loss, a little "steam" comin out the ears works wonders.

ANS

Re: Don's "never"s...
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 28-Feb-2003 08:27:51 (#3283)

as does "lettin it ride" when the count calls for it. Chasing your bets (Martingaling it) is fine as long as you do so within the parameters of the count, one of my favorite covers.

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSTEAM
Posted by Learning to count on 28-Feb-2003 10:42:48 (#3286)

That is the one thing that we all have to work on; the FRUSTRATION of loosing consistantly on a rising count. The rule of thumb is bet with the count not with your paranoia. As far single deck well there are some excellent situations still available but throwing real money at them is difficult. I have been lucky with green stacks up to a hundred bucks. LTC

Re: Don's "never"s...
Posted by T-Hopper on 28-Feb-2003 23:35:32 (#3290)

I posted a list of several (but probably not all) of Don's unbending rules for cover play on advantageplayer.com. Unfortunately, most of the replies were deleted a couple of days later. While high stakes players can consider using some of these rules some of the time, anyone with a max bet of less than several hundred dollars is wasting his time even thinking about cover plays.

Here are a few of the motives that drive counters and wanna-be counters to use excessive cover.

<UL>

<LI>Overestimation of the edge. BJ is a grind; even with perfect play, you can lose hundreds of units in a very short time, and continue losing for hundreds of hours.

<LI>Looking for an excuse to gamble. You must be patient or find a better game. Believe me, you will get PLENTY of action every hour betting by the count if you know where to look.

<LI>Wanting to "play fair" with the casino. My comment here: BWAHAHAHAHA!

<LI>Fear of getting backed off. So they tell you to leave, so what? There are approximately 999 other places to play in the world. It's not 1977 any more when the only legal blackjack in the U.S. was dealt in Nevada.

<LI>Wanting to play like the "big boys." Monkey see, monkey do. It's foolish to try to imitate the purple chip play of a million dollar team with red chips. They can afford to "give back" a little (if warranted), the average player cannot.

</UL>

Great points T...& some more thoughts
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 01-Mar-2003 05:20:56 (#3291)

T-Hopper brings up some very valid points. Most cover plays are just far too costly for all but the big money players. But its also important to understand what is meant when people say "low stakes players shouldn't use any cover plays". What's really meant, is don't use plays that have a cost (by cost, I mean decreased ev and/or increased risk).

An example of this has often been brought up by ZG, where he recommends making superstitious decisions on borderline plays (although I am not a preponderant of the idea, as I believe there is no such thing as a "borderline decision"...there is always enough info available to make a decisive decision, though the effects would be near nill). Some more examples can be found in Alan Pell's (author of "Blackjack Bootcamp") "Imbicilicus Touristicus..." article, archived in the Library at BJFonline, but the concept is only limited by your imagination.

It should also be noted, as pointed out by ADM in his great "Enemy" series (archived here, in the "Best Posts" page), that a "naive" act is not something that anyone should just go out and attempt. When executed clumsily you will arise more suspicions than you would have envoked with if you had played normally. Obviously don't go trying to make an "imbicilicus" play while shuffling a stack of cheques like you're friggin' Nick the Greek. Use common sense, and also watch how ploppies behave...their comments, their mannerisms, etc. and try and become comfortable mimicking them. This will seem obvious to experienced players, but the beginners need to understand the importance of this.

One benefit of this ploy is that beginning counters are ususally not veteran gamblers, and are often knew to the casino experience, thus their "acts" can be quite convincing.

Borderline plays
Posted by T-Hopper on 01-Mar-2003 09:58:36 (#3293)

Most players should choose the play with lower variance. Increased risk can wipe you out just as quickly as reduced EV. Or better yet, use a running count system instead of having to constantly rely on TC "judgment calls".

What I found strange about the original thread was that anything I said here is controversial. Is everyone supposed to have a high 5 figure BR or more in cash?

Also
Posted by T-Hopper on 01-Mar-2003 10:02:49 (#3294)

I am not saying do everything you can to get backed off every session, as some players seem to attempt. Use some caution and discretion. And as the Bishop once said, if you are betting low stakes, dealing with heat is easy. They shouldn't even notice you at most joints, so if you get any heat at all, just leave!

Re: Also
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 02-Mar-2003 04:27:09 (#3301)

T-H wrote:
"I am not saying do everything you can to get backed off every session, as some players seem to attempt. Use some caution and discretion."

Of course. It's funny, you know what they say, some people feel they need to get barred in order to prove to themselves they are playing a winning game. Crazy.

"And as the Bishop once said, 'if you are betting low stakes, dealing with heat is easy. They shouldn't even notice you at most joints, so if you get any heat at all, just leave!'"

What about like in AC where there's only a couple decent games? Wouldn't you agree that a player with less options has to compromise somewhat?

ANS

Re: Also
Posted by T-Hopper on 02-Mar-2003 09:59:17 (#3307)

Of course you might have to make some concessions if you want to be a regular at the local casino. Just mkae sure that everything you are giving up is necessary to be able to keep playing. In some casinos you can play every day and still do whatever you want, it would be a huge mistake to use cover or quit after XX minutes every time at such a place.

Low stakes players don't need an "act" *NM*
Posted by T-Hopper on 01-Mar-2003 10:05:20 (#3295)

Re: Great points T...& some more thoughts
Posted by alienated on 01-Mar-2003 11:22:59 (#3296)

'a "naive" act is not something that anyone should just go out and attempt. When executed clumsily you will arise more suspicions than you would have envoked with if you had played normally.'

I think this goes for a lot of counters' 'acts', naive or otherwise.

Is it just me, or does everybody cringe the moment a player starts to explain the reason for their play, change in bet, taking of insurance, etc. Straight away I'm thinking 'counter'. ;-)

If someone gets annoyed at your play and abuses you (usually another counter trying to sound like a ploppy!), it can make sense to use the situation to paint yourself in the best light. Or if the dealer or PB offers some 'helpful' advice, again, there may be some utility in playing the situation. But IMO it usually seems unnatural to volunteer your rationale for every little thing you decide to do at the table. What makes you think that anyone would question your actions in the first place? You're a ploppy, right? You know what you're doing. What's with having a rationale anyway? Sounds like someone's thinking too much to be a ploppy. (Note to Adam: second person used as literary device only, such as it is - not directed at you personally !!?! ;-))

Of course, never say never. We all have different personalities, demeanours, appearances, etc, and what works for one person just won't seem right for another. I think the most important thing is to seem natural, where 'natural' is as defined by the narrow-minded, mediocre, bigoted masses, not the cosmopolitan, talented, tolerant advantage-play community (yeah right!). If our 'acts' grow naturally out of our basic personalities, we can't go too far wrong.

There are infinite ways to look dumb, many of them quite subtle.

Of course, it's easier for those of us who have always looked that way. ;-)

Re: Great points T...& some more thoughts
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 02-Mar-2003 04:15:47 (#3300)

Ted wrote:
'Adam said: 'a "naive" act is not something that anyone should just go out and attempt. When executed clumsily you will arise more suspicions than you would have envoked with if you had played normally.'

"I think this goes for a lot of counters' 'acts', naive or otherwise."

I agree fully, I wasn't implying that this advice only applies to this ploy. Thanks for elaborating though, for those who may not be aware.

"Is it just me, or does everybody cringe the moment a player starts to explain the reason for their play, change in bet, taking of insurance, etc. Straight away I'm thinking 'counter'. ;-)"

Again I agree fully, I should've clarified that I wasn't suggesting excessive explanations. IMO comments can be useful though, when timed properly.

"If someone gets annoyed at your play and abuses you (usually another counter trying to sound like a ploppy!), it can make sense to use the situation to paint yourself in the best light. Or if the dealer or PB offers some 'helpful' advice, again, there may be some utility in playing the situation. But IMO it usually seems unnatural to volunteer your rationale for every little thing you decide to do at the table. What makes you think that anyone would question your actions in the first place? You're a ploppy, right? You know what you're doing. What's with having a rationale anyway? Sounds like someone's thinking too much to be a ploppy. (Note to Adam: second person used as literary device only, such as it is - not directed at you personally !!?! ;-))

Of course, I understand what you meant Ted ;-). Once again I agree with all of your comments here, but I must caution you about your use "thinking" and "ploppy" in the same sentance. Are you certain there wasn't a better way to word it? lol

"Of course, never say never. We all have different personalities, demeanours, appearances, etc, and what works for one person just won't seem right for another. I think the most important thing is to seem natural, where 'natural' is as defined by the narrow-minded, mediocre, bigoted masses, not the cosmopolitan, talented, tolerant advantage-play community (yeah right!). If our 'acts' grow naturally out of our basic personalities, we can't go too far wrong."

Some very good advice.

"There are infinite ways to look dumb, many of them quite subtle."

Definitely, I see 'em all the time.

"Of course, it's easier for those of us who have always looked that way. ;-)"

So that was YOU Ted!

BTW, its good to see you posting again. How did things work out with your development? It did indeed look very promising.

ANS

Re: Great points T...& some more thoughts
Posted by alienated on 02-Mar-2003 07:38:43 (#3304)

"I should've clarified that I wasn't suggesting excessive explanations."

I think your post made perfect sense. I enjoyed reading it and was just chiming in with my two cents.

"IMO comments can be useful though, when timed properly."

Agreed.

"BTW, its good to see you posting again. How did things work out with your development? It did indeed look very promising."

I don't really mean to go so long without posting. I tend to get a bit preoccupied with whatever I'm busy with at the moment. Right now it's boundary effects (although this was interrupted with a brief foray into NRS territory ;-)), and it's taking up most of my time away from the tables. I think segment boundaries is the development you are referring to. It does seem to be very promising. Actually, I'm certain all the work will turn out to be worth it. Most of my time is taken up with certain cases. These are by no means the most important cases, just the most difficult to analyze, but I want to cover them for (near) completeness.

But the bottom line is that the main cases - [1,0], [1,1], [2,1] - are all very exploitable. The cases taking most of my time are [all,1] and [all,2], of which the latter is least important because of its low frequency of occurrence.

PS
Posted by alienated on 02-Mar-2003 07:44:10 (#3305)

The second bottom line (!) is that segment boundaries are often very exploitable even if you don't know what type of crossing will occur.

I've alluded to the reasons for this in earlier posts, but I'll explain everything more fully when it's ready.

Regards,
Ted

Re: BJA 2nd ed.
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Feb-2003 09:22:15 (#3285)

One should not throw caution to the wind, but what is all the theoretical knowledge worth if you don't use most of it in practice? Optimal bet ramps, correct bet sizing, etc., are a huge part of your SCORE. The cost of cover is part of the game too, but the cost should be reasonable, and Don's "Nevers" simply cost too much.

Re: Great book, but . .
Posted by NewbieCC on 28-Feb-2003 18:51:15 (#3287)

I am just finishing up this book and think that it is excellent. I really appreciate the practical logic that Don uses to attack different blackjack questions. It helps me to think through other problems/questions that I have that he does not address. However, it seems to me that (1) Don tends toward the conservative side, and (2) many of his opinions are somewhat reflective of the times when they were written. Some of the contents of the book were writting long ago when games were much more favorable than they are today. This is a great addition to my library, Don's "logic" and "math" are immpecable, but I choose to weigh Don's "opinions" against other experienced player's opinions to come up with something I am comfortable and confindent in. For example, Don advocates in his book, spreading 1 to 2x6 units. Most experienced players today recommend a much higher spread (presumming you can get away with it) in order to get a reasonable return on the tougher games that exist today. And that is just my opinion, so take it for what it is worth.

NewbieCC

Great replies...
Posted by Coug It on 02-Mar-2003 01:25:00 (#3298)

Thank you for your insight!

Never?
Posted by ZOD on 28-Feb-2003 21:34:25 (#3289)

I, for one, hate the word "NEVER." I think that casino conditions dictate appropriate strategies for varying my bets. This is probably one of those times that winning blackjack is as much an art as a science.

In any game situation where there might be a little heat, I always try to come up with a "ploppy" reason for increasing or decreasing my bet. Sometimes that means lowering my bet after my blackjack beats the dealer twenty (well, you know, I always lose the next hand after a blackjack!) Sometimes that means upping my bet after I've lost a couple in a row (I've got to win one of these damn hands eventually!) Sometimes it means asking the pit boss for help and letting him convince me what to do next (often his advice is right on the money.)

The art really comes into it when sizing up the pit boss. The trick isn't just to act like any ploppy, but to act like the ploppy that THIS PIT PARTICULAR PIT BOSS NEEDS TO SEE. Is he bored and needing a little dirty joke to get through shift? Is he laughing at the poor drunk bastards throwing away their money? Does he beam with pride when players tell him what a wonderful casino this is and what a great job he is doing?

I've obviously strayed a little from the original topic, but my point is that once you figure out what the pit boss is NOT looking for, and you become that player, then you can raise and lower your bets almost with impunity.

Except, of course, when those three guys in suits are staring at you and growling. In that case, NEVER...

ZOD

Back-complaining
Posted by NewbieCC on 28-Feb-2003 19:13:32 (#3288)

Got back from Vegas on Monday. I really like that town. Anyway, since I don't have the BR to pay yet, me and the lady just walked around and gawked at all of the big casinos on the strip, enjoyed some drinks, dinners, etc. Watched a bunch of games to try some back-counting. I was quite dismayed to see a lot of 6:5 games and CSMs. At one point I had the urge to walk around the BJ pits and complain to my girl, loud enough for the players to hear, how bad these games are and how you get killed playing 6:5 bj tables and the CSMs. I resisted the urge, but I wonder, anyone ever get heat for "back-complaining"? How about other attemps to educate the ploppies?

NewbieCC

Re: Back-complaining
Posted by Learning to count on 02-Mar-2003 20:07:34 (#3308)

It is frustrating, and when you find a good game you can only take advantage for a short period. There are still some excellent six deckers to wong at and even to play all. You know what I love about Vegas is when you get up early say 5am and get ready to go out and hit the late shift for heads up single deck. The sun is always beautiful when it starts to crack in from the east. The rays are like lazers. Sun set is beautiful too. I love it when the sun is over the mountains to the west but it is still bright out. I love being downtown early casino hopping. Its so quiet except for an occasional sound of a slot. Breakfast at El Cortez is fun or breakfast at Binions. I love the country fried steak and eggs over medium! Wow I miss it. Yeah Vegas is easy to fall in love with but I would not want to live there. I would hate for it to become old hat.

Vegas Trip Reoprt (LOOOOONG!) *LINK*
Posted by Sonny on 02-Mar-2003 01:55:21 (#3299)

You are all cordially envited to ready my trip report from last
December. I will warn you though, it is LOOOONG (18 pages in 10 point
font! Too long to post here).

It's not one of the usual "I went here, won this much, then went here
but the penetration sucked" type of reports. It is very detailed. I
tried to capture the sights, sounds, and smells (not all of them
thank God) of Vegas. It also includes a lot of personal tactics,
opinions, and the story of how I became a counter. If you are looking
for a report that will quickly describe the good and bad games, you
will be very bored and hate my report. If you are looking for a good
story about one man's experiences in Vegas, I hope you will like it.

I included a downloadable version because it's probably too long to
be staring at a monitor, so just right-click the "downloadable" link
and save the file to your computer. It was done on Microsoft Word.

http://home.earthlink.net/~aladygo1/BlackjackMain.htm

-Sonny-

Re: Vegas Trip Reoprt (LOOOOONG!)
Posted by alienated on 03-Mar-2003 01:51:55 (#3310)

Thanks for a very entertaining report. I really enjoyed reading it. You have a lot of talent.

Congratz Ali!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-Mar-2003 10:04:51 (#3312)

I see you have won Post of the Month at Wongs BJ21. Why don't you post it here for all of your "bj brothers & sisters" here??

I read the above post recently......I think it was posted here a month or so ago?

Rob

my trip report is below anyways gambler sues is
Posted by hammer on 04-Mar-2003 22:19:48 (#3329)

Return to the referring page.
Printable text version | Mail this to a friend

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Today: March 04, 2003 at 11:22:33 PST

MGM Grand ordered to pay gambler
By Cy Ryan
<cy@lasvegassun.com>
SUN CAPITAL BUREAU

CARSON CITY -- An appeals court Monday ordered the MGM Grand hotel-casino to pay a $3.3 million judgment to an unruly customer who suffered a heart attack after being detained by hotel security officers.

A three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a decision of U.S. District Judge Howard McKibben, who had granted a new trial to the MGM.

The plaintiff in the case is Fernando Duk, a Mexican citizen and San Diego business owner. Duk was drinking and gambling heavily at the casino in October 1994, according to court records.

After he and his wife had a free meal provided by the hotel, Duk became disruptive, banging on wooden dividers between booths and blowing kisses at female customers, according to records.

When Duk refused to leave, a citizen's arrest was made and police were summoned. While in the detention room at the hotel, Duk's wife informed security that her husband was an insulin-dependent diabetic.

Duk complained of lung pains and an ambulance was called. Duk was examined but the attendants did not find any medical problem except that Duk was intoxicated. The paramedics did not evaluate his heart rate or blood pressure.

Duk was taken to the Clark County jail, booked and released the next day. He then went to the hospital, where it was discovered he had suffered a heart attack. He ultimately required a heart transplant in April 1995.

Duk sued MGM claiming damages and said he was unable to work following the transplant.

In Nevada, if the plaintiff in a suit is found to be more than 50 percent negligent, then the verdict must be in favor of the defendant. Despite being told that, the federal court jury found that Duk was 65 percent negligent and still awarded him $3.3 million. The judge found the verdict was inconsistent with the law and directed the jurors to continue their deliberations.

The jury returned with a second verdict finding the MGM 51 percent negligent and reaffirmed the $3.3 million award.

The judge ordered a new trial because of the discrepancy. At the second trial the jury returned a verdict for MGM.

The appeals court, in a decision written by Judge Michael Hawkins, reinstated the second verdict of the first jury.

"Allowing the jury to correct its own mistakes conserves judicial resources and the time and convenience of citizen jurors, as well as those of the parties," Hawkins said.

The appeals court said the jury did what it was instructed -- to further consider the question and come back with a new verdict. It said McKibben's decision to disregard the second verdict and order a new trial was an abuse of discretion.

Duk reached out-of-court settlements with American Medical Response, the ambulance company, and Metro Police, which paid him $50,000 and $10,000, respectively.

MGM Grand can appeal the decision to the rest of the appellate court. Attempts to reach the MGM Grand's attorney were unsuccessful.

Re: Vegas
Posted by hammer on 03-Mar-2003 21:58:14 (#3316)

-noticed computer trackers at tables at Green valley (mindplay?)
-noticed many dealers ratting to the pit about us better players-
perhaps envy or with their lack of intelligence maybe they actually
think they will get brownie points-maybe they deserve a wake up
call, like being followed and getting slammed into their cars
-tried some of the funky sf21 and got heat...who says
there is none on the funky game
-good sd at silverton,good dd at the fitz
-had one pit critter stare into my eyes at close range and then
pull out a large book with photos as he browsed through??
-another place the critter said lets see how much
you can make from us--a challenge perhaps?
-not that much csm-but plently of 6.5 saw loads of losers playing
it with sh^&*^%& rules like only db 9,10,an no das,and bad pen/at the
slots of fun
-tried to educate players that they must raise there bets every
3 or 4 hands...if more players would do this instead of flat betting
then this would be the norm...that should be the object of all
skilled players... to educate the unskilled
not with everything of course...
- its bizarre one of the best spots in town to eat is at the dumpy
hotel ecortez,a nice dinner there.

Re: Vegas
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Mar-2003 10:16:25 (#3320)

Hey the El Cortez may be smelly and dumpy but the food is good and cheap and they stil have one of the best single deck games around. That is inetersting about eduacating the players to increase thier bets. Excellent strategy. Then our raises would look the norm! HMMM! Sad about the 6/5. Good csm's are starting to disappear. Did you do well? LTC I miss vegas:(

Re: my Vegas as above
Posted by hammer on 04-Mar-2003 10:26:59 (#3322)

yes I increased my bk by 45%.

Re: my Vegas as above
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Mar-2003 10:31:49 (#3323)

Excellent!

nrs and Alienated
Posted by Mister M on 03-Mar-2003 11:30:58 (#3313)

Dear Alienated
If possible can you please post here, a copy of the nrs post that just won $100 on BJ21 green chip.
Many players would be very grateful I'm sure(including me!)
It's one of those instances where by chosing to join RGE instead may prove costly.

Many thanks as always.

Congrats to Alienated and his BJ21 POM! ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Management on 03-Mar-2003 18:44:44 (#3314)

We are honored to know that we have a BJ21 POM winner as part of the CC.COM family. We would be honored if Alienated would post his POM here so we may add it to our Archives. Once again Alienated congrats on a post well written. cc.com management.

Congrats Ted & some comments...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 03-Mar-2003 21:02:00 (#3315)

I remember recently one of your posts got edged out by BP for a POM, his post must have been excellent to beat out your segment boundry ideas. I'm happy to see you're getting the recognition you most certainly deserve.

On another note, while I understand everyone wanting to have the post available here, some discretion is always necessary when exposing advanced techniques such as the NRS formula. The fact is, a small percentage of players can actually make use of the techniques necessary to implement the formula anyway, and most of those who can are already aware of the methodology. Another fact is that casino personnel are oblivious to NRS, and to a lesser extent ST itself. I say this in light of comments I've heard from surveillance personnel, namely DV Cellini, as well as several PC's. As an aspiring ST'er I just feel there is too much at stake to expose any more information on the topic than is necessary. Those who are truly interested and capable will find all they need in the BJM archives, though it will take an IQ significantly higher than that of your average PC or Eyeman to understand it (that's the idea).

This just my opinion, normally I am all for the whole "the info wants to be free" thing as zg has expressed before, but my point is even if 10% of readers understood the methodology, and 10% of those could actually implement it in the real world, that would total 1% who would actually benefit from it (that's probably a high estimate) compared to the significant percentage of serious players who stand to be adversely affected by such exposures. As I said, JMO for this particular topic.

ANS

Re: Congrats to Alienated and his BJ21 POM!
Posted by alienated on 03-Mar-2003 22:57:47 (#3317)

Thank you for the kind words.

I would prefer not to make a duplicate post in this case, partly as a matter of internet etiquette. It is my understanding that I am perfectly free to repost elsewhere if I wish, but I feel some obligation to any member who may have subjected my post to a careful reading on the implicit understanding that it would not be receiving similar attention elsewhere and potentially consuming their valuable time unnecessarily. I also feel that Stanford, in giving the POM award is entitled to some reciprocal benefit, such as it is, in the form of the post being archived at his site. While the monetary value of the POM award may be small, I consider the honor considerable. (Actually, considering the miniscule sales that could be expected from trying to turn ST material into a book, perhaps the monetary reward is more than ample, also. ;-))

I had a couple of reasons for making the post in question at bj21, rather than elsewhere. First, it is a very theoretical post, so either bjmath or bj21's theory page seemed the obvious choices. Since bj21 is one of the main places I have posted (along with CC.com and CCCafe), I considered it to be the logical choice.

Second, because the post grew out of my attempt to answer someone's very insightful question, part of my motivation for posting was to double check that there were no flaws in my reasoning. While I was confident that my working was sound, it reassured me that any serious errors would be picked up by one of the theory experts on that page (some of whom are CCCafe and/or CC.com posters).

I should briefly respond to the well reasoned post of ANS above. To be honest, the sensitivity of the material, IMO, is not really a concern. If I had considered it overly sensitive, I would not have posted it anywhere, since it is really no more secure at bj21 than anywhere else. I may be wrong, but I really do not see how knowledge of the NRS formula can significantly enhance the ability of casino surveillance to identify shuffle trackers. There are certainly ways of detecting shuffle tracking, which I will obviously not go into, but IMO knowledge of the NRS formula does very little to assist this detection. Moreover, my post is simply an extention of the fundamental NRS results that have been in the public domain for quite a long time. I don't think the post adds much from the perspective of those engaged in detection, though hopefully it is of benefit to players. I would, however, be interested to know the opinion of C V Cellini, or other similarly qualified people, on this matter.

I hope my reticence in this instance can be understood.

Regards,
Ted

Message received and understood ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Management on 04-Mar-2003 08:41:32 (#3318)

Alienated we respect your reasons and appreciate your loyalty to BJ 21 and green chip. We also are green chip members and have access to thier pages. I would behoove any one serious in playing BlackJack to invest in BJ21.com/Green Chip or at Advantage Player.com. A new site also is Arnold Snyders site which is free as is cc.com and has a monthly BJ Magazine; "Blackjack Forum all are serious AP sites dedicated to bettering your game. These sites have produced genius in the works of Card Counting and have provided for a simple system to turn "this thing" we do into a profession for a few and a lucrative hobby for others as well as taking a bite out of the Casino stinger. Alienated we are honored that you post here. Thanks. Management.

PS Not to leave others out but we have several celebrities here to name a few

10Splitter
Abraham de Moivre
ace
Adam N. Subtractum
Al Rogers
alienated
Andrew Johnson
AsZehn
Biff
bigplayer
BJfool
Bob Turner
BradRod
branmuffin
Buick Riviera
Capo de Capos
Cardkountr
Ch Dog
chicagoslim
Chip Mill
Coug Fan
Count Luckula
Cyrano
darksun
ElementX
Felix Rue-de-Guerre
Frank Tillery
GameBoy
glenracing
hammer
Hinoon
jnubro
joe_r_black
JohnBoy
JohnTS
JR
kansas
Kurt M. Rufa
kyzr
Learning To count
Luc Malafarina
LVBear584
LVHC Hitman
Management
Maverick
Minnesota Fats
Mister M
MrPill
Nadia Russ
NewToTheGame
Panthercounter
phantom007
Reddevil
Rob McGarvey
SammyBoy
Sentry
Slowhand
Sonny
SplitFives
Splitz
sprettster
stevedicey
T-Hopper
The Mayor
Theef
TRACKER
Wong Out
wongway21
Wyrstle
Z
Zagger
zengrifter
ZOD

This Site
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 04-Mar-2003 10:54:50 (#3325)

is DEFINITELY under new management. I know the Mayor is not that keen on BJ21, although it does house some of the masterminds like Ted in the GC area. Interesting. I can't wait to see what your hole card is ;>

Where is this months Mayors Podium article??

Re: This Site
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Mar-2003 11:58:58 (#3326)

Hey Rob the Mayor is on green chip all the time. I think he is personal friends with SW too. I think there may be some hostility on the part of his holiness Don S. who from what I can remember has a some beef with the Mayor. As far as the Mayor being anti-site I just have not seen that. Hey I roll with the belief even the ploppies can teach us somthing. So it is better to listen first then calmly debate. I am happy that there seems to be cohesion at this site amongst posters from the big two. "Can't we all just get along" R.KING :)LTC

Re: This Site
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Mar-2003 14:33:35 (#3327)

I have no problem at all with GC, not one. In fact, I am very fond of the management, and SW, and good friends with many people on the site.

On the other hand, I have no love whatsover for ap.com, for a variety of reasons, but I would never take an action to harm their site, nor publically discuss the events that lead to this situation.

As for my podium, I just need a kick in the pants to write it. Yours is a good one, I'll do so immediately!

--Mayor

Re: Congrats to Alienated and his BJ21 POM!
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 04-Mar-2003 10:22:54 (#3321)

Ted, thanks for sharing your experienced opinion on the subject. As I said, I am only an aspiring ST'er, and I was just leaning towards caution for the benefit of the ST pros.

As for DVC's comments on ST, definitely check out his board at BJFonline. You could just do a quick search for "shuffle tracking". Some pretty good posts, and a couple you'll probably get a kick out of, I sure did.

ANS

PLogic
Posted by Coug It on 05-Mar-2003 00:19:12 (#3332)

Plogic= what I call "ploppy logic".

Playing a game dealt face down. Dealer makes her hand to 20 and beats the table. When the cards are turned over the ploppy next to me has two Aces and a 4. So I say to him, "Did you just stay on 6 ?!?" His reply, "Well, I looked at it as 16 and the dealer had been busting, so I stayed. To which I promptly chastise him for "screwing up the cards" and "making" the dealer not break. (thus fighting plogic w/ plogic).

The even more humorous exchange happened a round later when I doubled down on A-4 and was dealt an Ace (dealer busted and I won). Next hand I'm dealt a hard 16 to which I lament to the dealer "A sixteen!". She says to me, "You didn't complain about your 16 last hand". My reply...

"No, that was a 6, just ask him" (nodding to my right). The ploppy's brilliant, grumpy comeback.... the classic "whatever"

PLogic, what a beautiful thing.

Re: PLogic
Posted by SammyBoy on 05-Mar-2003 10:51:04 (#3337)

I actually saw a ploppy stand on 11 (2-2-3-4) the other day in a pitch game. The dealer made her hand with a 5 showing. I told the ploppy after the dealer filpped his tucked cards, "you had eleven, why didn't you hit it?" He said, I thought it was 12.

What can you do?

Re: PLogic
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Mar-2003 11:10:55 (#3338)

I have seen the ploppy reason given: I wanted to save the bust card for the dealer. Certain players routinely stay on hands like A,5 vs. dealer 6 for the same reason. When I say "certain players" I mean that I don't want to sound racist -- but it is actually a cultural norm -- the way a certain culture has learned to play the game, and believes is the right way to play.

--Mayor

logic
Posted by hammer on 05-Mar-2003 11:18:56 (#3339)

say a gal db on 2,3 dealer showing,well it doesn't matter,
i asked what are you expecting to get,she replied well the dealer
has a 6,I asked again,what are you expecting to get.

I had a large bet out there and lost and the lady won,as the dealer
bust.

Question for Hammer
Posted by LVBear584 on 06-Mar-2003 13:01:28 (#3359)

You had a large bet out, so I assume the count was strongly positive.

You said the dealer busted, but you lost, which is only possible if you busted first.

A stiff is hit against a 6 only in negative counts.

What happened?

Re: Question for Hammer
Posted by hammer on 06-Mar-2003 15:38:08 (#3365)

I believe the dealer actually had a 7 which I consider a bust card
evenmore than a 2 or 3. i hit my 7,5 and got a 10..whamo....
something like that,,,I know I lost that hand.

Re: PLogic
Posted by Big Cowboy on 05-Mar-2003 11:29:53 (#3340)

Mr. Mayor, just to let you know that I am Asian. Let me come out and say that in my experience playing BJ, your reply could easily refer to Asians, especially the rich ploppies from Hong Kong who have too much money and not too much sense. If I'm alone at a table and an Asian person sits down next to me, I am usually rolling my eyes inside. I know it shouldn't make any sense but playing at a table with other Asians usually makes me take to drink whiskey. I only wish I had the money roll of these other people because the money they have usually goes right to the casinos.

Re: PLogic
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Mar-2003 10:51:53 (#3357)

You are correct, sir. I hesitate to be the least bit culturally biased, but it does seem there are cultural ways of playing bj that become the norm, just as Roulette seems to be the game of choice of the French.

Re: PLogic
Posted by SammyBoy on 06-Mar-2003 16:53:44 (#3366)

There are many Asian players where I play, it appears that most of them love to play the no bust strategy. I love it when I'm at third base and I hit my 16 against the dealers 10 and I draw a 10. They start chattering a mile a minute. I have no idea exactly what they're saying, but it's obvious they're not happy with me. Some of them even get mad at me when I walk up to their table. But most of them are very friendly and I enjoy playing with them.

Re: PLogic
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Mar-2003 13:22:31 (#3347)

Excuse me if I descent from the "cultural norm" thing. I have seen ploppies of all races, and creeds too, do outragious plays including double on anything thinking they are getting the edge or wishing they are getting the edge! As far asians go I have known some that were BJ wizards at AP and at poker. Watch out they are numerous and do have the economic presence to give LV a hurting. I have noticed that they are a force in the Las Vegas dealer work force and they seem to be fairly serious about taking our money! Ploppies as defined are ignorant human beings who dont give a shit about learning how to survive when gambling away the mortgage! LTC

BEER as cover
Posted by Coug It on 05-Mar-2003 00:28:29 (#3333)

Last trip to a favorable game = slight heat and a ringing pit phone a split second after I bet table max. and am dealt a 21.

This trip = a couple beers (most dumped out in the restroom after leaving a neg. count), no heat and a comped dinner.

Coug it please sign up a user profile ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Management on 05-Mar-2003 07:31:52 (#3335)

We invite you to be a permanent member of CC.COM.

Membership
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Mar-2003 11:50:22 (#3341)

has it's priviledges ;>

Re: Coug it please sign up a user profile
Posted by Coug It on 05-Mar-2003 17:39:40 (#3351)

Done.

Re: BEER as cover
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Mar-2003 09:36:24 (#3336)

I learned that trick from a good friend, the water beer. Also, if you get a beer in a can (e.g. Cortez), you can just pretend to drink it, and get a new one every 30 minutes.

--Mayor

IF
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Mar-2003 11:56:39 (#3342)

you can't count when you've had a few you shouldn't be counting. IF you can't drive when you've had a few, you shouldn't be driving! ;>

Seriously, you should be able to do this in your sleep. A few toddies won't do you any harm, and drinking is cover. I'm a very happy guy and even more of a blast when I've had a nip or two, and the way you interact with the table will only improve your cover.

Moderate drinking is not for everyone.

Re: BEER as cover
Posted by phantom007 on 05-Mar-2003 15:35:58 (#3350)

Or another method is to drink one, then another, and then... Causes amnesia of bad outings!

phantom007

Mayor's Podium *LINK*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Mar-2003 12:21:05 (#3343)

As you can tell, there have been some changes around here. I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the new management of this site, and to explain what has been going on in my life, and with this site, and the future of my involvement with blackjack...........

More clues about who is running this site. Can you find them? ;>

http://www.cardcounter.com/podiums/podium_03_2003.htm

Master of Disguise?
Posted by SammyBoy on 05-Mar-2003 13:12:35 (#3345)

Damn Mayor, every picture I've seen of you does not look like the other. No wonder you have no problem posting your pic. :-)

Re: Master of Disguise?
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Mar-2003 10:48:19 (#3356)

You must have looked at www.integrity-intl.com ... yes. I have had people meet me and say I don't look anything like any picture they have seen. That really helps, when it comes to posting pics then playing bj.

Crowded Tables
Posted by SammyBoy on 05-Mar-2003 13:06:55 (#3344)

How much advantage do we lose when playing at a full table (7 players + dealer) in a single or double deck game?

Sammy...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 05-Mar-2003 14:00:10 (#3348)

I guess you don't have T-Hopper's free e-book "T-H Basic BJ". It contains system reports for many different conditions, including what you're asking for. You can find it at BJRnet or CCCafe where he recently posted a link.

ANS

Re: Sammy...
Posted by SammyBoy on 05-Mar-2003 14:05:47 (#3349)

Yes I had it but deleted it after skimming over it. I don't remember seeing that info in it. I'll look again. Thanks.

Fargo, North Dakota
Posted by Skug on 05-Mar-2003 13:21:22 (#3346)

In the unlikely event you find yourself in Fargo, North Dakota, with some time to while away, several area bars offer blackjack. I was staying downtown, away from Fargo's quasi-casino blackjack offerings, i.e., bars with multiple blackjack tables opening early in the day. All blackjack games in town are charitable gambling.

The downtown bars have either one or two tables, which don't open until mid or late afternoon. The rules are favorable (S17, DA2, DAS) with a skip-the-trip-to-the-restroom minimum ($1) but a stifling maximum ($25) and a two-box limit per player. All games are four decks, and the penetration ranged from 3.25/4 decks (Rooter's) to 2.5/4.0 (Sport's Bar and Side Street).

Several oddities: (1) there is no pitboss and often only one dealer, whose only break thus consists of selling pull-tabs between shoes to the saps at the table; (2) I've never heard so many explicit references to card counting at the table; (3) I have never seen such generous tipping, which is extraordinary given the town's austere Scandinavan-American stock; and (4) the tables are so tiny you have almost no room to place your idle chips.

The highlight of my sojourn was the refrain of a gregarious and otherwise bright player -- he played perfect BS. He kept belittling some player from an earlier session (where I was not present) who split 10's and countered the table's rebuke by saying, "I only split 10's when it's logical." The gregarious player delighted in mocking the player by repeating that line. How tempted I was to enlighten him with the knowledge that the joke may well be on him.

Re: Fargo, North Dakota
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Mar-2003 17:59:23 (#3368)

What a game! I suppose you can earn minimum wage with optimal play 8-)

My ex-wife was from N.D., and I ventured there once. What an incredible place, it is just impossible to describe to someone who hasn't been, although I recall the Governor once saying: "it's easy to get lost in N.D., not lost like you don't know where you are, lost like losing your mind."

former bjack pro on travel channel tonight...nm *NM*
Posted by hammer on 05-Mar-2003 21:34:59 (#3352)

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