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Threads 631 to 660

Letter from Titanniumman to Nacht, with all emails now posted.
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Jul-2003 15:44:47 (#4503)

The letter from Michael Belgard (AKA Titanniumman), along with ALL of the referenced emails between him and Victor Nacht, now are posted on the fight board at www.bjforum.com.

I want to encourage you to read these documents as soon as possible. There is no reason to believe that they will be long lived at that site.

Please make all comments with regard to this letter and the email between the two at that location.

--Mayor

An excellent site for copyright questions
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Jul-2003 17:05:42 (#4520)

http://www.fplc.edu/tfield/copynet.htm

--Mayor

How much money can be made playing blackjack professionally ?
Posted by KO_counter on 09-Jul-2003 17:37:48 (#4523)

hi , i am a newbie so expect some newbie questions. i am focusing on the HI-OPT II system right now. Just wondering what kind of money is there to be made out there playing professionally with a sound system and discipline ?
would any pros out there care to comment on the money they make a year playing blackjack ?

i'm from new orleans, anyone ever come play at any of the new orleans casinos ?

thanks in advance ,
---------------------ko

Re: How much money can be made playing blackjack professionally ?
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Jul-2003 18:25:35 (#4524)

A lot. How much do you want to make? If you say $200,000, then you are going to have to do some things that are borderline illegal. But that is a very different story from $30,000 -- which is quite straightforward. If I had to "guess" an average number for the full time travelling/working pro, it would be in the 50k range.

Re: How much money can be made playing blackjack professionally ?
Posted by KO_counter on 09-Jul-2003 18:41:45 (#4525)

i noticed you said traveling. would it be a bad idea to frequent the local casino ? here in new orleans we have the harrah's casino which is about 10mins from where i live and we also have about 3 others ?

Re: How much money can be made playing blackjack professionally ?
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Jul-2003 20:17:48 (#4527)

If you think you can be a pro by beating one casino....

How much can you take from them before they care?

If you don't know the answer to this, you should play there until you know. That's lesson #1.

--Mayor

Re: How much money can be made playing blackjack professionally ?
Posted by hinoon on 09-Jul-2003 20:27:25 (#4528)

Hi, I'm a kind of a newbie too, so I empathize with your plight. You've found a really great supportive community here. Treat these people with respect and they will happily help you out. I've certainly learned FAR more here than at any other website out there.

In answer to your question...it's kind of a trick question... it's like asking "How much can I make trading stock?" The answer is: It depends.

It depends on your bankroll.
It depends on how much time you have.
It depends on how comfortable you are with risk.
It depends on your skill level.
And it depends on your ability to discern good games from bad ones.

Note, you won't often hear many players talking in dollar amounts...everyone has their own base unit...which is determined by the size of the bankroll and other factors. We're here to learn and trade information, not brag about our wallets. You'll hear someone say, "I won/lost 15 units" That could mean $75 or $15,000...but the point is...it's been standardized into a common phrase for the sake of discretion and simplicity. Teams have won millions. Players have lost fortunes. It's all possible.

"professional play" is a specific term. There was a good post a few weeks back about what it means to be a pro-player.

My advice to you is to study, study, study. Learn your Basic Strategy hard and cold. Then worry about money.

It would be great if someone could talk about the bankroll to unit ratio and how that's determined. I know it's something like your bankroll should be 1,000 times the size of your maximum wager...or something to that effect.

Cheers

Listen to this person
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Jul-2003 20:41:35 (#4529)

Listen to HiNoon,

He knows a lot, I have met him in person, and I have deep respect for him.

His advice is golden.

--Mayor

Re: How much money can be made playing blackjack professionally ?
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Jul-2003 00:47:17 (#4533)

AAAAhhh Hi Noon howdy Hombre! You have been away from the site too long. Tell Angelina I said TEQuiero! Betting units. I now look at bets as risk. I think your bet spread should also include your rate of ruin and that should be under 2%. I used to look at the Bankroll size as far as the 1000 to 1 rule. I now want to have a bankroll large enough to make a nice profit and be able to withstand deep neg diviations. That is the key to the bankroll size and the corresponding bet spread. Its all part of the grind. In effect your bankroll may be bigger than you are thinking right now for the same bet spread you want to be able to push out on the felt.

Max Bet equation?
Posted by hinoon on 10-Jul-2003 11:48:03 (#4541)

Hey there Mayor and LTC, thanks for the comments!

LTC, I've been here, but much like Rob M. said in an earlier post...I've just been watching for a bit.

The political stuff that's been posted isn't anything I can really comment on comfortably since I don't know any parties involved (though I CAN and DO vouch for Mayor as a man with integrity, and am not sure how his name got dragged into the issue since by all evidence, he was merely directing users to a more complete discussion on another site.) So instead of posting, I read with interest and studied my BS.

I think it's wise to include the element of risk in your choice of maximum bet.

So...to make it clea to us newbies

...Suppose I have a 10,000 unit bankroll, with an acceptable Rate of Ruin of 1% What does that say for my Max Bet/Bet Spread ? Is there an equation for this?

Thanks.

--Hinoon

Not enough to hurt a "real" casino!! Why are they so scared of us? "NM" *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 11-Jul-2003 13:36:52 (#4559)

My letter to the LVRJ
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Jul-2003 20:14:09 (#4526)

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jul-09-Wed-2003/opinion/21680629.html

Re: My letter to the LVRJ
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Jul-2003 00:48:23 (#4534)

I fire under them casino asses

Dear Alienated
Posted by Ripley on 10-Jul-2003 06:22:39 (#4536)

I have noted your past excellent postings on tracking and have a query if you don�t mind.

The game is 3.0/4.
Post shuffle the top 2 decks contain the first 35 cards dealt = A and 70% of the cut offs =35 cards (approx)
Example: A = -10 + cutoffs = +10(really -10)
Using a multiplier of 0.7 for the cutoffs gives me -10*0.7 = -7
I therefore assume A-10 + cutoffs-7 = -17 and this is knowledge of 70/104 = 70 %( rounded). Taking yet another multiplier of 0.7 = -17*0.7=-11.9.
If you cut the 2 deck segment to the top, what IRC and divisor would you use?
I have been using an IRC of +12/2 for a TC of +6?

After 26 cards are out and the count drops to +8 I calculate+8/1.5 for a TC of +5.2 or +5.

I have been trying to use the NRS formula without success.

In the article by DvBj it states: � N equals Z / 52. Or if you count d,q and k in number of decks instead of number of cards N is equal to Z!�

d=4decks,q=2decks and k=1.5 decks approx (70 cards)

This would give 4+2+1.5=7.5/52= 0.1442!! Which make no sense?!
I appreciate you input as the math seems beyond my humble comprehension.

If I cannot control the cut and 1 other deck is placed on top of the 2 deck segment how does this alter the IRC and number of pseudo decks please.

pulled at request of author ??
Posted by BradRod on 11-Jul-2003 10:10:42 (#4552)

I wanted to get back to alienated's reply because i did not have time to read it through fully until now. was it pulled for editing ?

Re: pulled at request of author ??
Posted by The Mayor on 11-Jul-2003 10:14:35 (#4553)

I noticed that too... it was up for a few moments. I have no idea where it went.

You can delete your own posts if you register a handle and get a password.

--Mayor

Re: pulled at request of author ??
Posted by Mister M on 12-Jul-2003 03:10:49 (#4569)

I should imagine that this post was deleted by Alienated himself for editing purposes or to add additional information.

If you search for a few of his previous St posts you will see the obvious level of experience and expertise.

Re: pulled at request of author ??
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-Jul-2003 10:42:14 (#4580)

Ali is famous for taking his own posts down, either for editing, or for just telling you too much about advantage play. My respect for him is im-measurable.

Re: Where is Ali?
Posted by Mister M on 14-Jul-2003 13:59:22 (#4585)

I totally agree Rob.

IMHO Alienated has posted some of the very best I have ever seen on any BJ board.

I cannot tell you just how much I have progressed from his ST posts alone and I urge any Player interested in these techniques to read all his postings very carefully on this and the other boards.

I am also waiting for his response to the primary question above to see if the answers mirror my own findings.

Re: pulled at request of author ??
Posted by alienated on 16-Jul-2003 02:02:56 (#4591)

I self-deleted the post. Sorry for any confusion this caused. It certainly wasn't censored by anyone else.

The reason I deleted the post was that I thought it was borderline too sensitive for an open board, even though I was careful to keep the info was intentionally generic and non-specific. I was hoping Ripley had already read my response (I think about 50 people had viewed it).

I'm on the road at the moment (hence my tardiness in responding to this thread), and don't have easy access to the original post. I might repost when I get back or come to some compromise solution. The post provided brief information on how the NRS formula can be extended to the case of 'broken' slugs and summarized key results from one of my earlier posts on multiple slugs/segments.

Re: pulled at request of author ??
Posted by Ripley on 16-Jul-2003 10:30:58 (#4593)

Dear Alienated

I did not see your response I am afraid as it was not posted for enough time.

Re: pulled at request of author ??
Posted by Mister M on 16-Jul-2003 10:35:23 (#4594)

Ali,

I am not sure what information has not already been made available on the various board.

Please email me at the above address if possible as I missed the post.

Many thanks

Help With My Math
Posted by NorCalBJ on 10-Jul-2003 16:23:37 (#4544)

Am I figuring the win rate correctly here:

-945 hands played
-6615 dollars wagered (7.0 dollars avg per hand wagered)
-220 dollars ahead

I calculated a win rate of 3.3% for these 945 hands. Did I figure this correctly? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks

Re: Help With My Math
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Jul-2003 18:29:02 (#4545)

Sounds right -- but what is the point for such a small sample size?

Re: Help With My Math
Posted by NorCalBJ on 11-Jul-2003 02:03:02 (#4548)

Thanks, Mayor. The sample size was really meaningless. I just wanted to know if I was calculating the win rate correctly. I just used that one (a collection of sessions I played on the computer) as an example.

Graph
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Jul-2003 08:56:53 (#4550)

It would look good on a graph to see how this 3.3% will mean out over time if that is what he is doing. It should end up looking like the Rockies ;>

high count -- is it really that good ??
Posted by KO_counter on 10-Jul-2003 21:25:15 (#4546)

i am a newbie of course. what i am wondering is if anyone has ever thought that maybe counting cards is not that much of an advantage ? ...... because the deck is considered good if the count is high. but doesnt that mean the deck is better for the dealer too ? no matter if the deck is good or bad the dealer is still playing with the same deck.

so if i have to work with bad cards(low count) so does he, and if there are good cards(high count) left in the deck .... he will draw them too.

just wondering because i am getting into counting but have always thought this.

say the count is high and i bet my max --- i get two tens(good cards) and the dealer gets blackjack -- i lose --- but the count was high

i just think i may be betting my max at the same time that the dealer can draw great cards too, which sort of equals out my chances of winning.

Re: high count -- is it really that good ??
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Jul-2003 21:56:52 (#4547)

>i am a newbie of course. what i am wondering is if anyone has ever thought that maybe counting cards is not that much of an advantage ? ...... because the deck is considered good if the count is high. but doesnt that mean the deck is better for the dealer too ?

Yes, but the dealer doesn't get paid 3:2 on BJ, or get to double down, or split, or stand on a 16 vs. 9, or choose to hit/stand on a 12 vs. 6, or change his bet size. These are how we take advantage of the high count, it is this asymmetry that makes counting win.

>just wondering because i am getting into counting but have always thought this. say the count is high and i bet my max --- i get two tens(good cards) and the dealer gets blackjack -- i lose --- but the count was high i just think i may be betting my max at the same time that the dealer can draw great cards too, which sort of equals out my chances of winning.

Read, study... read, study, read, study...

--Mayor

Re: high count -- is it really that good ??
Posted by FLA Player on 11-Jul-2003 11:18:30 (#4554)

I am in the Phoenix airport after a 12 hour mini-trip wonging at high counts- I had maybe my highlight of my short AP career- Wonged into a 6 deck at Palms with a couple of college age kids betting 100-500 chips.... I won 7 hands in a row (2 naturals) and played insurance correctly on the last hand- walked away with $550 in less then 2 minutes.... I entered at a TC of +3, and it took a lot of pain in the ass walking around and standing and concentrating before finding that shoe... but when it hits like that it's sweet- LTC would have been proud- the college guys spending daddys money were pissed- what's better then that? Flat betting at negative counts and staying at one table is hard on your BR, wonging is hard physically and mentally, but it is your best option- negative counts simply favor the dealer, as the Mayor said

FLA Player

PS- last minute ticket on Swest Phoenix to Vegas was $180

Re: high count -- is it really that good ??
Posted by The Mayor on 11-Jul-2003 12:04:22 (#4555)

Just so you're sure ... you could have lost that $550 just as easily. You got that, right?

Congrats on the win.

--Mayor

Re: high count -- is it really that good ??
Posted by FLA Player on 12-Jul-2003 16:58:58 (#4573)

YES- and I did lose on high counts on 2 other sessions (not trying to make it sound easy or something, just because you have a high count doesn't guarantee a win)- and losing sucks.

Thanks Mayor,

FLA Player

Compound Interest
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Jul-2003 08:54:19 (#4549)

You can look at playing BJ in a similar way as you look at compound interest, with a few twists. BJ you have swings which can put you well ahead of or well behind your expected take. You advantage is around 1% for the average player, and the more you can play the more you compound the effect that 1% has on your BR. In time 1% of $100 turns into 1% of $1000, 1% of $10,000, 1% of $100,000.

Now if you can find a 5% advantage this compounding is astronomically increased. By finding opportunities like this you can cut back the time spent compounding, or you can go at it until you have enough money that you no longer need to work anymore. You can also eliminate the swings in your BR, a big point to new counters/players.

It is not uncommon for an onLine player to win as much money in one month as a full time table pounder does in an entire year simply because of hands per hour, zero travel, zero heat, and an advantage of 5% with an expected ROI of over 100%, sometimes as high as 400%.

Time is money. Shorten the time and increase your % if possible.

high count ---- very good, indeed !
Posted by BradRod on 11-Jul-2003 10:07:28 (#4551)

Take it on faith from those here who have played an advantage game over a considerable period of time. It is a long run endeavor and until you have enough of your own experience faith in those you trust is what will keep you in the game. ALso, as the mayor recommendes read to get an understanding of the theory and expectation behind it. It does work and it does pay off in the long run.

Re: high count ---- very good, indeed !
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-Jul-2003 10:39:16 (#4579)

I understand what you are saying, it really needs no faith to understand this. I think you all understand that a 5% edge is far superior to a 1% edge, and know how that will inversely effect the amount of time required to go from 0 to infinity and beyond. My Dad used to tell me about starting with on penny then get two pennies, then the next day you get 4, etc. Now we can do it with nickels, or what you call a five cent coin. Once in a while you find a dime or quarter tossed into the mix.

Re: high count -- is it really that good ??
Posted by suicyco maniac on 11-Jul-2003 13:34:14 (#4558)

Yes your advantage is small. The main reason that high counts favor you is when you get a BJ you get paid 3:2 and when the dealer gets BJ you only pay him 1:1. You should be able to see if you each traded BJs every other hand you would come out way ahead. Some other factors are the dealer cannot split or double you can, and the dealer has to hit all stiffs even when the deck is high in tens increasing his chance of busting. All this being said the Mayor is right STUDY STUDY STUDY then PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!!!!!!!!! SM

Re: high count -- is it really that good ??
Posted by NorCalBJ on 11-Jul-2003 14:13:18 (#4561)

I am pretty new to counting. I have been familiar with it just a couple of years, and been putting it into practice in a Casino for about 8 months. I have to say that I was getting close to losing faith in the beginning. I thought the way that you did. I knew why the player had an advantage on positive counts (3:2, DD, PS...ect) but did not see it paying off. But I gave it time and the probabilities caught up.
The first time that I really cleaned up on one afternoon was all on high count wins. I had lost about 30 units over two hours one afternoon, and then had a good run of positive counts, got several BJ's and DD's, and won about 40 units in thirty minutes. There is also something very satisfying in taking insurance on a very positive count and coming out even as the entire table of ploppies lose their bet. (I don't root for ploppies to lose, but it is nice being rewarded for not being one)
I have had similar experiences since then, and as I improve with practice, am winning a little more than 60% of the time I go to the Casino.
I am still trying to learn as much as I can and practice hours everyday. Listen to the experts (there are many on this board) and take it from another newbie like me, your patience and faith will be rewarded.

Re: high count -- is it really that good ??
Posted by Cadillac on 11-Jul-2003 23:15:32 (#4568)

you must play for the long run. think about flipping a coin. there's a 50/50 chance of heads or tails. the casino's edge in bj is roughly 52/48 b/c of the fact that you must play your hand first, etc, etc.
if you flip that bj coin 100 times, do you expect it to land exactly 52 heads and 48 tails? no. some days the casino will win 72 flips and you'll win 28. some days you'll win 57 and the casino 43. and so on. that's what's so ingenious about the casino games. you get to win alot.......but in the long run, they win a little more.
the counter can turn that edge around to about 49/51 or so. then it's the same deal. some days you win, some days you lose. it's a long run proposition(that's what they tell me anyway:))........and a very interesting hobby.

contacting Extreme Blackjack
Posted by BradRod on 11-Jul-2003 12:06:11 (#4556)

Anybody have any knowledge about Extreme Blackjack ?

I have sent a bank check for purchase of an e-book from them and have not received any response from numerous inquiries. I have the name of Richard Reid there and have tried contacting him directly again with no response.

Anybody deal with them ? DOes Mr. Reid visit this site ? Are they still in business ?

Thanks for any info .

Brad

Re: contacting Extreme Blackjack
Posted by suicyco maniac on 11-Jul-2003 13:28:02 (#4557)

I purchased his online E-book a few months back and had no problems. Wish you the best. SM

contacting Extreme Blackjack
Posted by BradRod on 11-Jul-2003 13:45:26 (#4560)

what did you think of the book ? was it helpful to your game ? Dynamic BJ right?

Re: contacting Extreme Blackjack
Posted by suicyco maniac on 14-Jul-2003 13:32:05 (#4581)

Sorry I didn't post a response sooner I have been very busy. I am from the school of thought that you should read everything about the game that you can get your hands on and that every book will teach you something if you look deep enough. That being said most serious players will already know most of what is in this book (which is true of most books you read)His multi tier betting strategy is interesting it would probably work wonders on people who know enough to think they are smarter then they actually are. Also his thought on mixing up your game "playing dynamicly" is a very good idea. I don't feel the count system is worth learning in todays world (I myself play the Uston APC and If I had to start over I would not pick a difficult count) He also has an interesting system for keeping the count in different deck segments for shuffle tracking although it doesn't go into great depth. Last but not least he has a good section on record keeping and how to evaluate your records and your teamates records to see where your game needs improvement. If you are a serious player the 30-40 this book costs is worth it however if you play more for recreation you might be better off keeping the money for your bankroll. Hope this helps. SM

extreme blackjack
Posted by michael e. on 12-Jan-2005 02:28:45 (#11727)

I had just got through playing extreme bj for the first time. I have never even heard. However, I just doubled my money. Do you feel that this game has better odds that conventional bj? i did have fun, and I beleive I could get hooked. any imput?

ty
michael

Extreme BJ the table game?
Posted by suicyco maniac on 12-Jan-2005 05:29:25 (#11730)

The thread you posted on is about "extreme blackjack" the online book by Richard Reid...If ou were playing the table game remind me of the rules....I think this game is where the dealer plays their hand different against each player to maximize the house edge. Does this sound close. SM

Extreme Blackjack is a carnival game
Posted by The Mayor on 12-Jan-2005 08:55:42 (#11731)

No, it does not have better odds than real BJ, in fact, quite the opposite. No game in the house has odds as good as BJ (given that you learn at least basic strategy and don't believe the stupid things people tell you at the table. You got lucky. Never play that game again! Really! BJ has the best odds in the house, under 1/2% --

Lesson: When people win at losing games, they get hooked. That is not a good thing. If you continue to play a losing game, you will lose.

Re: contacting Extreme Blackjack
Posted by BradRod on 14-Jul-2003 13:39:52 (#4582)

thanks, i did just receive the download info and am into the book now. I appreciate your impressions of it. I was especially interested in his promotion of the multi-tired betting, the log keeping and the shuffle tracking. I'll let you know what I think of it

wonging ??
Posted by KO_counter on 11-Jul-2003 17:52:54 (#4565)

i hear wonging alot on here. what exactly is it ?

thanks

Re: wonging ??
Posted by Cadillac on 11-Jul-2003 21:05:52 (#4567)

standing behind the players at a table, generally a multi-deck game, counting until the count is positive and jumping in. really pisses the superstitious players off. wear very comfortable shoes. it can take a while.
by the way, what kind of bj is offered at H@rr@h's, and b**mtown in nola(sd, dd 6d,/ rules/ pen)? thanx

Re: wonging ??
Posted by KO_counter on 12-Jul-2003 13:43:34 (#4570)

cadillac, the only one i really go to is harrah's. i dont know too much detail since i was only a ploppy. i'm pretty sure its 6deck, can do all the other things such as double down after split, not many things that you cant do(that i know of), and the dealers always seemed very friendly. they usually always let a player put the card into the deck after they shuffle. there are lots of blackjack tables at harrah's (just dont go on a saturday nite, cause u will never get a seat , unless its after 2am ) i think they are very leanient there, but that may be because i was only a ploppy. :)

- let me know if you have any other questions

How much help is varying decisions based upon count?
Posted by Joe Schmoe on 12-Jul-2003 15:09:15 (#4571)

I was just wondering..How much is the player's advantage increased by varying his playing decisions based upon the count instead of always playing basic strategy?

Re: How much help is varying decisions based upon count?
Posted by The Mayor on 12-Jul-2003 16:02:03 (#4572)

I don't recall the exact numbers -- Harvey Cohen, who often posts on rec.gambling.blackjack, has done extensive research on this question, for a variety of games. Roughly (maybe someone will chime in with better numbers), for single deck, you get about 30-35% of your edge from strategy deviation, and for 6 deck, it is in the 10-12% range. Thus, strategy variation is essential to master for single deck, but for shoe games, you can get by with a huge bet spread (or wonging) and basic strategy.

--Mayor

Re: How much help is varying decisions based upon count?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-Jul-2003 10:26:07 (#4577)

Right. The Ill 18 are set up in order of how important they are to adding to your edge. First one is insurance which is said to account for about 30% or so of the 10%-20%ish figure, followed by the other 17 indices. After the Ill 18 you can only add another 10% out of the 10%-20% by knowing every other indice. In otherwords, the Ill 18 accounts for 90% of all the extra edge you can get with indices.

Re: How much help is varying decisions based upon count?
Posted by Henry Tamburin on 19-Jul-2003 14:29:57 (#4606)

Don't forget the fab 4 for shoe games that offer late surrender. I even use the surrender indices in the Hilton's million dollar BJ tournmanet and twice they came in handy.

Henry Tamburin

Re: How much help is varying decisions based upon count?
Posted by Dschddny on 21-Nov-2003 15:01:35 (#5507)

What is the "Ill 18"?

Thanks.

The Fabulous 18
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 21-Nov-2003 18:35:11 (#5508)

AKA The Illustrious 18. These are the most commonly used variations to basic strategy. They are only used when the TC index # is such (high or low enough) that it warrants the play variations noted for the appropriate C you are using.
If you state the C strategy you are using, I'm sure there are plenty of people on the board who will have the perfect answers you need for the C you are using.

Stealth

The Ill 18
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Nov-2003 22:00:38 (#5512)

cover 90% of all extra gains from BS departure. They are in oder of extra EV, Insurance being worth around 30% by itself. If you play for a living, it is worth learning every indice, esp if you play 1D.

This actually happened
Posted by BradRod on 13-Jul-2003 21:42:24 (#4574)

I was playing 2 spots -1st base side at the table of a new dealer trainee. There was another dealer "shadowing" the trainee and the pit boss was almost continuously at the table watching him. Talk about "heat". I'm just glad it was not aimed at me.

Dealer was making frequent mistakes in procedure, counting hand totals, payouts, etc. All of which became very tiresome very quickly so I did not stay at the table very long.

While I was there the cut card came out during the deal of a hand in which the dealer had a bust card showing. End of shoe , high count, big bets out. I drew to both of my hands to inadaquate totals. The dealer wound up making his hand . Beat both of my hands.

Dealer worked his way around the table, collecting losses and paying wins. Well, he stumbled ridiculously on the player next to me. First he picked up the winning bet. Then he kept mis-paying him. Each time he took the payout chips back to start over he drew another suit to the table. When he finally got it right there were 3 suits at the table as well as the "shadow" dealer.

They finally got the payout right. Then the "shadow" dealer says. "ok, now breakdown his bet and pay him ( that's ME ) from the LEFT side of the rack. Everyone seemed so relieved the hand and shoe were over that I did not have the heart to point out that they were paying 2 big losing hands. I mean if 3 suits and 2 dealers figured I should get paid, who am I to argue ?

The dealer got so flustered in the process that he cut off about 1/2 deck from the next shoe ( 6 D). I stayed for one more great shoe and moved on.

Re: This actually happened
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 14-Jul-2003 10:13:54 (#4575)

Hey Brad,

I'll just guess where you were playing.

I think there was some stipulation in that market whereby they would allow the casinos to exist if they hired a certain percentage of inner-city unemployed people. Many of them were probably unemployed for a very good reason. I have seen quite a bit of ineptitude out there. (I'm sure you have too). I found a roulette dealer paying 72 to 1 for a strait number on the opening night of one of them. Whoo-hoo!

-Felix

Re: This actually happened
Posted by BradRod on 14-Jul-2003 13:49:59 (#4584)

HEY Felix,

Right. It was the place we talked over coffee.

Re: This actually happened
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Jul-2003 19:24:53 (#4588)

Lovely, yes!

--Mayor

Another great letter from Al Rogers to the LVRJ
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Jul-2003 19:20:58 (#4587)

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jul-14-Mon-2003/opinion/21707037.html

Re: Another great letter from Al Rogers to the LVRJ
Posted by HiNoon on 14-Jul-2003 23:18:06 (#4589)

Nicely said Al!

Thanks for helping to keep the issue alive and in the public eye.

-HiNoon

Strategy for consistant low $$ wins?
Posted by Dman on 15-Jul-2003 18:22:05 (#4590)

I live in WA state where there are casinos on basically every corner. From my experience the longer you sit at the table the greater your risk of ruin. I am looking for a strategy where I can sting them fast for $50 and walk away. A $50 win may not seem like much for someone getting on a plane to go to vegas but if you can do this daily on the way home from work over a month you can have well over a $1000. I am comfortable sitting down at a table with up to $1000 to start. Any thoughts on a betting/count strategy would be appreciated

Re: Strategy for consistant low $$ wins?
Posted by The Mayor on 16-Jul-2003 09:17:58 (#4592)

>I live in WA state where there are casinos on basically every corner. From my experience the longer you sit at the table the greater your risk of ruin.

And if you play well, the greater your expected win. ROR, by the way, does not increase based on time played. It is a constant, which is determined by your bankroll, the game you are playing, and the bet spread you choose. You can't increase it or decrease it by simply playing.

>I am looking for a strategy where I can sting them fast for $50 and walk away.

Steal the money from the racks. Seriously, there is no such strategy. If it did exist, just sit there doing the strategy over and over and take ownership of the casino.

>I am comfortable sitting down at a table with up to $1000 to start. Any thoughts on a betting/count strategy would be appreciated.

Learn how to count, bet according to the count, play a lot. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it is the truth.

--Mayor

Re: Strategy for consistant low $$ wins?
Posted by Negative Martingale on 16-Jul-2003 10:45:01 (#4595)

Bet $50. If you win, you have met your goal, stop playing.

If you lose, bet $100 on the next hand. Winning this hand means you met your goal, stop playing.

Continue doubling your bet until you win a hand and make your $50 win.

If you hit the table max, then just keep betting table max and pray you hit a win streak to dig you out of the hole, or until you lose all your money.

This method will consistently cause you to win $50 for the majority of your sessions. Of course, almost as consistently, you will hit the big bad losing streak session. This one bad session will wipe out all your profits from all the many little winning sessions.

Over the long run, you will find you will have lost (AVG. BET) X (HANDS PLAYED) X (HOUSE EDGE). Of course, you will be truthfully able to tell all your friends, "I win $50 almost everytime I go to the casino. I win far more often than I lose." Just don't tell them that the few times you do lose, you lose far more than you win, which makes you a loser overall.

If only it was that easy :) "NM" *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 16-Jul-2003 16:37:07 (#4596)

Re: Strategy for consistant low $$ wins?
Posted by CougFan on 17-Jul-2003 18:47:38 (#4598)

Send me an email. I have a couple of good ideas for your exact situation, but I do not want to discuss them in an open forum.

Re: Strategy for consistant low $$ wins?
Posted by dman on 18-Jul-2003 21:52:20 (#4604)

Cougfan my e-mail address is dgh0578@yahoo.com Not sure what yours is.
Let me know what your ideas are. Thanks

You've got mail *NM*
Posted by CougFan on 21-Jul-2003 16:08:57 (#4616)

More on Trackjack-gate
Posted by Titaniumman on 17-Jul-2003 18:10:26 (#4597)

Anyone following the saga is invited to read my post I'm still here, Viktor. on The Fight Club Board of Arnold Snyder's bjfonline.com.

It will be of particular interest to anyone with or considering a Trackjack subscription.

single hands vs. multiple hands at once
Posted by Dman on 18-Jul-2003 21:09:42 (#4603)

During a strong count opportunity is an advantage player at the $50 level per hand better of playing a single hand of $50 or two hands of $25 at the same time? From my position at 3rd base, if the count is good it seems like I would have a better chance of getting 2 good hands while assisting in shifting the count to the dealer to give him a non pat hand..... Thoughts???
Dave

Re: single hands vs. multiple hands at once
Posted by HiNoon on 19-Jul-2003 15:08:12 (#4607)

Dman,

Two points here...

It is my understanding that in a high count such as you describe, it is a much stonger move to spread to multiple hands rather than playing one large hand. This reduces your variance, and thus takes better advantage of the positive count. I'm not a math guy but I'm sure someone here can give a real-world example to illustrate this.

As for the notion of being third base and shifting the count to the dealer...read the Mayor's essays on blackjack mythology, particularly this one on the notion of "third base" :

http://www.cardcounter.com/Mythology/Myth_Third_base.htm

Cheers,
--HiNoon

Re: multiple hands
Posted by Sonny on 19-Jul-2003 15:36:43 (#4608)

Technically, since you are playing two hands at once, you can spread to two hands of $35 each and still keep the same Risk of Ruin. The benefit of two hands is that you can safely get more money on the table than with only one hand. In general, you can safely spread to 2 hands of 73% of your original bet, or 3 hands of 57%.

On the flip side, the optimal number of hands that you play should be based on the number of players at the table. Here's what Schlesinger's BJA says:

Playing alone, stick to one hand of $50.
Playing with 1-2 other players, spread to 2x$36.
Playing with 4 other players, spread to 3x28.

And, of course, don't EVER play with more than 4 other players. Some people don't even play with 3 others.

As far as giving the dealer a worse hand, that won't be a consideration. The cards come out randomly, so you will get the low cards just as often as he does.

-Sonny-

Breaking Blackhawk, CO
Posted by Kenneth T Pittman on 19-Jul-2003 12:03:54 (#4605)

I recently spent a week in Blackhawk, Colorado, a picturesque casino community/strip comfortably nestled in the hills just outside of Denver, Colorado. I had the distinct pleasure of playing the Blackjack tables at The Isle of Capris, The Lodge, The Mardi Gras and The Riviera Casino's located there. As it turns out very few of the gaming establishments offer table games, the majority of the casino's only have slot machines. While there, I only visited those facilities advertising four or more Blackjack tables. One casino listed in the area, advertised only one Blackjack table and it was a video-style table - needless to say, I never visited that casino. I would like to return tot he ares sometime in the near future and pay visits to The Grand Central Station, The Mountain High, and Harvey's. All of which offer three or more tables per location, I just didn't have enough time to visit them on this particular trip.

Comps come mostly in the form of free gifts, meals, free transportation to and/or from the casino's and/or nominal cash-back offers for length of play. Since there are even fewer casino's with hotels than those offering tables games in the community, you'd have to be a pretty big high-roller in order to be comp'd one of the sparsely available rooms. Although I've heard that during slow period, even the scarcely populated hotels will offer comp'd accomodations through pre-arranged mail-out offers. The food was surprisingly well presented and tasted every bit as good as it looked. I grew particularly fond of the Lunch Buffet presented by 'The Lodge,' which offered a variety ranging from standard American menu to surprisingly good seafood entre's.

I have to openly admit that of the casino's visited, I didn't encounter a single dealer that I didn't like. The same can be said for the any/all of the ables rules at the various gaming facilities actually played. All of the casino's displayed the same set of rules, the dealer hits on Soft-16's and stands on ALL 17's. Unlimited splits are allowed, with the exception of Aces. Aces can only be split up to four times, with each Ace only receiving one subsequent card. However, double-downs are allowed on the other split opportunities after the second card is drawn (but only after the second card is drawn). Many of the dealers even allowed the player to thin-cut, and all of the tables played offered shoes of 65% or more (some of the dealers actually gave the table deep-cuts of the shoe, sometimes just above a single deck wide in a six-deck shoe).

Colorado state law restricts maximum table bets to $5, and minimum bets are also $5. As a general rule in Blackjack, you can't make any money if you can't press bets. It is imperative that being able to vary wagers is necessary in order to capatilize on splits and/or double-down opportunities. The casino's in Blackhowk realize that not only does this state law regulate how a much a player can wager per hand. it also severly restricts how much the casino can earn per-player, per-hand. To compensate for this prohibitive state regulation, the casino's there offer an alternative - that if properly monitored, can prove to be quite profitable. These gaming facilities add a twist to the game of Blackjack called "Streak Blackjack" Side bets are made by the players on how many consecutive hands he/she will win, therefore betting on a winning "streak" - thus the name "Streak Blackjack." The consecutive wins pays as follows:

2 Consecutive Wins Pays 3 to 1

3 Consecutive Wins Pays 8 to 1

4 Consecutive Wins Pays 18 to 1

5 Consecutive Wins Pays 38 to 1

Wagers of $1 to $5 are allowed on each of the consecutive side bets, in incrementsof $1. The trick is that you must place all of your STREAK bets prior to the first hand of the series being dealt. Bets of $1 to $5 are allowed on each oof the consecutive side-bets. The trick is that you must place "all" of your "streak" prior to the first hand of the series. By Colorado State Law, there should only be $25 per-player, per-hand at risk at any given time. Counting the $5 bet on the hand itself, should you sucessfully win 5 consecutieve hands (in theory) you would pocket $360 for all 5 hands - side bets included. Not a bad return for a $25 investment, that is if you can consistently win all 5 hands. This "streak" betting is probably the best advantage that I've ever seen a casino having over the players.

Many players get so caught up in protecting the "streak," that they completely forget about playing the game of Blackjack (some don't even play 21). It didn't take me long (nor much muney) to figure out that side bets on winning 4 and/or 5 hands in a row were long shots, and that the house would collect those particular side bets many more times than they would ever pay out on them. Especially in the event of split opportunities - if the player splits 3 or more times, it then becomes absolutely necessary to win greater than 50% of the split-hands in order to maintain the "streak."

Let's say that a player has already won 3 consecutive hands, and is now working on the 4th of 5 hands of a "streak." The player is then dealt a pair of 8's, and subsequently does the "right" thing - SPLITS! The next card dealt is another 8, to which the player again splits. The player takes a hit on the first 8, and draws another 8 - again SPLIT! In case you've lost count, that's now a total of four 8's and the dealers' upcard is a 10. The player takes two more hits on the first 8 and draws a 5 and a 9 - A BUST. On the second 8, the player hits to a 4 and a 10 - again BUST! The player hits on the next 8 and gets a 9 (total of 17). On the fourth and final 8 the player hits and draws a 3, double-downs and is rewarded with a King (21). The dealer turns up the hole-card, and reveals a 7 - total of 17.

The first two 8's busted out, the third 8 (17) was a push with the dealer and the player won on the fourth 8 with a three-card 21. Now we know that in Blackjack, a Push counts as a loss when following many Money Management/Betting strategies, and the same holds true here. The player lost the first two hands, pushed on the third, and won the fourth - score comes to 3 losses and 1 win (less than 50%). This translates to the player losing the side bets on the 4th and 5th streaks, both. So even though the player kept his/her oney on the overall hand (the double-down play on the foruth hand recouped any/all losses for the two bust hands), the house still collects $10 (the "streak" is now over, and the player now has to start all over). Since the player in this scenario did win the first two phases of the streak, the eventual loss of the $10 side bet was in reality a net gain of $60. Not having a complete understanding of the "true" odds here, I lost $450 my first day in Blackhawk.

Again, you have to be able to vary your bets in order to show a profit in Blackjack. But Colorado State Law prohibits betting of more than $5. Obviously, if there's any money to be made with this form of Blackjack. The money has to be made on the "streak" bets. The dilema here is that, how do you capitalize on the higher payouts while minimizing losses? Especially since the house will generally collect the side bets from the third through 5th "streaks." The solution may seem quite simple, some might say - just don't bet on the streaks. But remember, the maximum table bet is $5, therefore the only that you're going to make any money at al is to wager on the consecutive wins.

Money Management becomes the most critical element in making this flavor of Blackjack profitable. Betting the "streaks" will definitely keep you at the tables for a while, and actually turned my initial losing day completely around. I wnet from that first day of losing $450, to showing a profit of $300 to $500 per day by the end of the week. All said and done, I was able to leave Colorado iwth approximately $1700.

Re: Breaking Blackhawk, CO
Posted by Negative Martingale on 21-Jul-2003 11:49:31 (#4613)

A nice report on scenery and conditions, but you might want to re-think that "money management" thing. I think your results can best be attributed to "LUCK".

What is the hourly return on $5 wonging?

Might be interesting to see if an expert could survey any tracking, hole carding, dealer error, or procedural-type advantage plays. Unfortunately, with $5 limits, time and money can be better spent elsewhere.

Re: Breaking Blackhawk, CO
Posted by Kenneth T Pittman on 24-Jul-2003 11:09:59 (#4629)

True there is a cerain amount of "luck" involved, which is why the smaller amounts were wagered on the long shots (18 to 1 and/or 38 to 1 - if any wager at all). However, as long as at least the "Basic" strategy is used there are certanties in being able to get at least 2 to 3 consecutive wins. A player shouldn't play for the streaks, but instead continue to play the game of Blackjack.

Given that the side-bits are consistently utilized, I averaged approximately $75 an hour on most days.

Thanks!
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jul-2003 17:29:50 (#4625)

Nice post, thanks for your contribution,

--Mayor

Re: BLACKHAWK
Posted by K Huebl on 26-Jul-2003 17:54:21 (#4635)

Hey,

Im from Denver, just learned to play. Just went on a trip with some friends to Vegas learning how to play in a casino, practicing Hi-Lo count, basic strategy, ect. Anyways, I am planning to spend quite a bit of time up in Blackhawk improving my skills for my next trip to Nevada.

I have a couple friends who have said Fitzgerald's offers a $3 min bet and 5$ max bet game, also if you draw 3 7's to a 21 the dealer deals his hole card face up the next two rounds. Playing multiple hands and varying the bet can get you a decent spread from $3 in low count to 3 or 4 hands of $5. Maybe a good way to build a decent bankroll for being a college student with not a lot of extra income.....

Were you making $75 an hour in BLACKHAWK??? If so, what counting system were you using???

Thanks,
Kyran

Re: BLACKHAWK
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Jul-2003 19:05:47 (#4637)

>I have a couple friends who have said Fitzgerald's offers a $3 min bet and 5$ max bet game, also if you draw 3 7's to a 21 the dealer deals his hole card face up the next two rounds.

Too rare to be of importance. Ignore this rule.

>Playing multiple hands and varying the bet can get you a decent spread from $3 in low count to 3 or 4 hands of $5.

Spreading to multiple hands of $5 each is not a good way of making a buck.

>Maybe a good way to build a decent bankroll for being a college student with not a lot of extra income.....

Nope. Not this game. I can't imagine a $5 max game. It doesn't exist in the universe I live in.

>Were you making $75 an hour in BLACKHAWK??? If so, what counting system were you using???

It's not the counting system, it's the bankroll, bet spread, and quality of the game. The counting system is incidental -- if the game can be beat, many systems will fare roughly the same.

--Mayor

team play
Posted by BradRod on 20-Jul-2003 22:57:37 (#4609)

I have a woman friend that is interested in learning BJ. She has yet to learn the basics of he game. Can a pre-player at that level be a team partner in the following scenario ?

The casino we go to allows back betting. How effective would it be if she put a bet down behind mine on a prearranged signal so as to effectively spread my bet out further at higher counts without raising as much suspicion as if I had spread it on the main bet alone ? Would this have the same effect as her wonging in ? Anything else we should consider ?

Re: team play
Posted by Sonny on 21-Jul-2003 11:49:55 (#4614)

Yes, this is a great plan to get a bigger spread. The only problem with this is that you have to justify her jumping in and out of the game.

I used to use a similar trick with my girlfriend. I would play through a shoe, and when it turned hot enough I would signal her in from a bank of slot machines nearby. She would come to the table all excited with some "I just won $200 on the slots! What are you playing?" line. She could then bet big until things cooled off. Since she was acting like my girlfriend who didn't know how to play (just blowing some money she won) it looked very natural for me to help her play her hands. If we lost, she would complain that she was bored of blackjack and wanted to leave. If we won, she would want to leave to celebrate at the club. The only problem with this was that we could only use it ONCE per shift. Still, it's a good way to get a big spread for a short time, hit-and-run style. Better yet, the pit will probably never suspect her of being the BP.

If you're planning on playing longer sessions, you will have to come up with something more creative than that. There are LOTS of great ways to use a female partner at the tables.

-Sonny-

Re: team play
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Jul-2003 15:18:07 (#4615)

I've done this with a friend too. We cover the first three spots on the table. I'm at first he is two down from me, and we take turns covering the spot between us on low counts. When the temperature goes up we start adding chips to the squares and soon we have hotels on Park Place and Boardwalk. We got pushed off last time we did this.

Rob

what would you do ?
Posted by BradRod on 20-Jul-2003 23:10:07 (#4610)

During my recent play - 2hands. I waved the first hand . The dealer- distracted by some nearby slot machine activity - then produced a card to bust my second hand. I protested that I had not signalled nor asked for a card.

Pit person was called over and decided to burn the last card - a 9 to my 15 hand against her 8 up card. I was again given the option of hit or stand. The count would have called for a hit. I thought that I could not hit the hand after already having protested her giving me a card. I was on my second chance for this hand, saved from the bust and figured I would take my chance now that she would bust her own hand so, that is what I did.

She turned over a T, (the next card was a 5)

Would you have hit or stood ?

Not said anything to begin with
Posted by suicyco maniac on 20-Jul-2003 23:53:38 (#4611)

The index for 15 vs 8 is +23 (Uston APC) a true count this high rarely happens so I most likely would not have even been thinking about what to do and just been playing BS. This being said I would have accepted the hit card but mentioned to the dealer (politely) to always wait for my signals. Of course assuming the floor has already shown up I would have stood on the hand. It is better to give up a bit of EV to not look like a horse's ass after making a stink about not wanting to hit. Just my 2 cents. SM

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#4612)

Re: mistermjuk@yahoo.co.uk *NM*
Posted by Mister M on 22-Jul-2003 02:51:19 (#4618)

About getting heat
Posted by Frank on 21-Jul-2003 22:46:20 (#4617)

Hi all,

I learned how to count cards recently and so far have made a decent amount of money off of it. I am considering whether to get players' cards at the casinos that I frequent. I read some stuff in the "Casino Harassment" section about comps being retroactively revoked. In light of this, is it good idea to get a players card and have all the comps tracked? Also, if you do have a players card, does that increase the risk of being caught counting cards, since surveillance records how much you bet?

Thanks,
Frank

Re: About getting heat
Posted by BradRod on 22-Jul-2003 08:31:43 (#4619)

Comp cards are worth having particularly if you use them for things you would otherwise be buying with money out of pocjet like food, room, drinks, etc.

You have little to fear about comps being revoked.

A casino will not suspect you of being a counter based solely on your buy-in and color up rate. They are more interested in the longevity of your play. It is always a good idea to rat hole your chips when you are winning.

Re: About getting heat
Posted by Frank on 22-Jul-2003 21:00:08 (#4621)

Under what circumstances would they retroactively revoke comps?

Re: About getting heat
Posted by Count Luckula on 23-Jul-2003 12:48:40 (#4623)

> It is always a good idea to rat hole your chips when you are winning.

Depending on your level of play though, be aware of what and when you are rat holing. The pit and dealer will probably be tracking anything black and up that goes out, so it's easier to sock away these chips if you have other players betting these denominations. Otherwise putting away a couple of greens now and then is a better bet. Afterall, if they know you're taking chips off the table, you're not really fooling anybody are you?

On a side note, I recently had the pleasure of watching a new PC go nuts for 10 minutes on the computer trying to figure out why he hadn't accounted for a few black chips disappearing (they had gone into my pocket :)).

Re: About getting heat
Posted by Running Count on 22-Jul-2003 10:42:53 (#4620)

Depending on your level of betting, NOT geting rated is worse. Raises suspicions. From the casino's point of view, anyone betting more than green and not seeking comps is suspicious.

Not that I have experience playing at that level... As for this red-chipper, I always get the comp-cards. Mmm, free coffee-shop food.

Don't worry you'll lose...
Posted by CC skeptic on 23-Jul-2003 03:44:45 (#4622)

I learned how to count cards recently and so far have made a decent amount of money off of it.

Let me guess... You played for one hour, won one hundred dollars, finished playing and said, "This is great!" Wait until the ol' standard deviation kicks in and you lose big time and again and again and again ....

Re: Don't worry you'll lose...
Posted by Frank on 23-Jul-2003 17:22:40 (#4624)

I've already experienced quite a bit of variance in how much I win and lose. But it doesn't hurt for the first few sessions to end on an encouraging note, does it?

Re: Don't worry you'll lose...
Posted by CougFan on 23-Jul-2003 17:36:41 (#4626)

Unfortunately, this guy is right. You will lose big, at least if you are like me. You will lose bigger than you ever thought possible. You will play a great DOA 75% pen single deck game for 3 hours spreading 1-6 units with no cover and lose 52 units. Then, you will immediately drive to another place with the same conditions and lose 48 units in 2 hours. This 5 hour span will single handedly wipe out all of your nice steady gains over the past 100 hours of play.

Of course, if you are like me, you will also win big. Despite all of the huge losses, you will adopt the mantra "ITS ONLY MONEY, ITS NOT IMPORTANT". You will focus on the things that really do matter in life as you repeat this mantra over and over, helping to even the emotions after big wins and big losses. You will manage to keep things somewhat in perspective and to keep your focus on the long run. Even with the big losses, you will increase your BR five fold in 2 months. You will then manage to lose 50% of your BR in 2 weeks and go through a frustrating period of ups and downs for the next 6 months (300 hours of play) struggling to get back to where you once were, only to finish the year at 85% of your all-time high. You will reflect on how you could have better spent that wasted 300 hours of your life and you will get depressed. You will then quadruple your bankroll in a month and a half, before going into another period of stagnation for the past 3 1/2 months. Of course, during this latest period of stagnation, 40 unit session swings will be the norm. Its just that at the end of the day/week/month, you will be right back where you started. GAWWWWD, this game is fun. I'm waiting with baited breath to see what the BJ Gods have in store for me next.

In case you weren't keeping track, thats an increase in BR of 1,650% over the last 19 months, and yes, the unit size did change from $5 to $25 along the way.

Re: Don't worry you'll lose...
Posted by ZOD on 27-Jul-2003 08:48:21 (#4640)

Coug,
Sounds like the BJ gods like you. Keep livin' right!
ZOD

Just a short-term loan
Posted by CougFan on 28-Jul-2003 13:41:48 (#4644)

The Gods have treated me well so far. The thing that has been amazing has been the extent of the swings. I play to a fairly small ROR of 0.5% to 1% depending on the game. Even with this low ROR, I have won or lost 10% of my BR in an hour. Other times, I will go months with relatively small session swings and end up at the same place. Its essential to keep it all in perspective.

CanKen's Journal [fwd]
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jul-2003 19:59:38 (#4627)

Ed. Note.

This is forwarded email from one of our readers, stories of success and hard work like this one really point out the truth of the journey, and are more worthwhile to read than 100 book son theory.

At the end of the post I have appended a graphical image of the author's play.

--Mayor

============================================================================

Back on June 12 you e-mailed me regarding my post on cc.com, and offered to
put up a graph of my results.

About 95% of my play is in a local casino offering five to ten BJ
tables. Limits are mostly $5 or $10 and occasional $15 or $20 minimums,
with a $100 max on all tables. Rules are 8-deck, split to 4 hands, DOA,
DAS. Penetration averages 75%, if you avoid certain dealers.
I started cautiously 3+ years ago with $1500 BR, betting $5-20, then
gradually increased my input to BR to $4000 about a year ago and increased
max bet to $40.
I have CVBJ and BJRM and use them both regularly. Of the dozen books on
my shelf, the ones I refer to most are Wong's "Professional BJ", and
Schlesinger's "BJ Attack".
Last October 12, you posted answers to some questions from me, and I
started using most of your suggestions. As you can see from my data, I was
much more successful from then on.
At present, with BR grown to $6800+, I play at $5 tables with good pen,
(they are always full, no wonging possible), spreading 5 to 60, or
preferably, $10 tables with good pen, two adjacent spots open, and no more
than three other players, betting 1x10 on neg EV, and 2x20 to 2x50 when I
get an advantage. Wonging is still a problem because most of the dealers
and PC's know me by sight, so I seldom try it.
I use a customized version of KO with 22 indices, including some risk
averse from "BJAttack". I also use exit counts equivalent to TC < -1 at
different deck levels, if I've lost two hands in a row.
My aim is to play 150 hours/year, roughly three sessions a week of about an
hour at a time.
The breaks in the chart mark the ends of "fiscal" years. The first two
years correspond to a learning period with limited play and small bets,
then improved methods and bigger BR started to pay off.
As well as the spreadsheet data I'm attaching, I keep a written log from
each session with other information including table min, count range, bet
spread, dealer's names and pen, comments on conditions and any mistakes
made. I don't tip if I lose, but do tip 5% of any significant win. I
don't tip if I'm playing where they don't know me.
I'm still having a problem with one piece of advice. In answer to a
question I posted on playing two hands, you said (Mar 18/03) to always
play two if possible, even off the top when you are at a disadvantage, and
even if you have to bet double the minimum on each. At a $10 table, with my
max bet of 2x50, this only gives a 2.5 to 1 spread, (40 TO 100), which
doesn't seem nearly enough in the 8-deck game I've described, even with
exiting at < -1. Everything else I've read recommends going to two hands
only if you have an advantage. Can you clarify? No one here seems to
mind if I go from one hand to two and back.
I guess I'm pretty much a recreational player, but I enjoy studying and
playing the game. The game I'm playing here is not very good I know. My
expectation is only about $1500 a year, but that's not bad for a fun hobby.
Any comments would be welcome.

CanKen

Re: CanKen's Journal [fwd]
Posted by V-man on 18-Aug-2003 14:18:23 (#4700)

Mayor,
I think the author jumped to conclusion too fast regarding how effective his recent method was. With 8-deck and all the conditions described such as full table limiting the number of hands/hour to maybe 60-65, the long run is a lot more than the 150 hours per year he described. My guess is that, for 150 hours/year, it'll take him at least anywhere from 5-8 years (maybe more) to get into the long run. His graph can only be attributed to the term that every ploppy admires and desires: Lady Luck.
I play under similar conditions to his (except with larger minimum and bet spread), and at first, after about 400 hours i was up more than 10K until I hit a loosing streak (so far more than 150 hours) that took me under the water.
This is one of a few things books can't teach you. You just have to go through it the hard way ...

Re: CanKen's Journal [fwd]
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Aug-2003 15:20:13 (#4701)

Excellent points, thanks for sharing.

--Mayor

paid on 22
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Jul-2003 12:07:20 (#4630)

I have developed a pretty strict personal policy about not correcting dealer payout errors when they are in my favor. A while back I got paid on a bust hand of 22. I noticed the dealer was re-counting my hand so I just sort of smiled and glanced around the room a bit. The dealer moved on to the next hand and the pit-boss went the phone. I didn't make eye contact with the pit, but was paying attention in my perifera. I'm just about positive that he saw the whole thing, and that the phone call was because of the error.

By all appearenced I was flat betting $10 per hand. I had just walked into the place and didn't have an opportunity to raise my bet. After it happened, I played about four or five more hands and left the casino.

2 questions:

Did I goof here? I figured if the pit approached the table I would just play dumb. But now the eye may have been watching me.

Why didn't he correct the dealer? Why did he call upstairs? There is a chance the phone call was not about me, but I really don't think so.

-Felix

Also, they had my rating information. *NM*
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Jul-2003 12:14:05 (#4631)

Re: paid on 22
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Jul-2003 13:56:04 (#4632)

"Did I goof here? I figured if the pit approached the table I would just play dumb. But now the eye may have been watching me."

No, you didn't do anything which is everything. If you hit by accident they don't always, or have to, help you out.

"Why didn't he correct the dealer? Why did he call upstairs? There is a chance the phone call was not about me, but I really don't think so.

For $10? They figured they would get it back from you, and probably just wanted to let the sky know that they saw it downstairs so the sky couldn't say they were not doing their job. Office politics IMO.

Re: paid on 22
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Jul-2003 14:20:12 (#4633)

>>"Did I goof here? I figured if the pit approached the table I would >>just play dumb. But now the eye may have been watching me."

>No, you didn't do anything which is everything. If you hit by >accident they don't always, or have to, help you out.

Yes, my philosophy exactly. I guess what I really mean to say here is this:

Normally I will never correct a dealer when he makes a mistake in my favor, but should I have in this particular instance knowing full well the phone call was made and security may have been involved?

I had time to correct the dealer between the time the call was made and he actually paid me.

Also, They were tracking my play and had my real name and info.

Vegas Game Report and Question!!!!
Posted by K Huebl on 26-Jul-2003 18:18:58 (#4636)

Real fast: what is an AP???
Also, is there a listing of the variations to basic strategy (the 17 changes) for the Hi-Lo count?
Also, should you ask for comps even playing at the 5$ table?
Also, has anyone done a basic strategy matrix for Spanish 21??? (10's are missing from deck, player can surrender, player 21 is always paid 3:2 and beats house, 777 paid 3:2, 678 suited bonus, double after any splits allowed, double on any cards, can withdrawl double down bet if next card is bad [but cant get any more cards], seems very favorable to the player if they changed up regular basic strategy.)

Just went to vegas with friends, first time ever in casinos small bankroll only played $5 min. tables.

Every casino on the strip had 6 deck games and single deck games. Venetian had 8 deck games. Everywhere is hit soft 17. Couple places offer surrender. Everywhere is double after split (except on aces). Most of the big casinos were $10 min. bet tables. Frontier sucks horrible dealers and penetration was about 50%. I found a small place across the street from treasure island called Casino Royale!!! Incredible single deck, and multiple deck games. I played the 6 deck game 5$ min $500 max bet, penetration at about 80% - 85%!!!!! Hand shuffled cards too, and the dealers are f*ckin awesome!!!!! AND the cocktail waitress comes around about every 10 minutes so when I was 'done playing I settled back to min bets and played for an extra hour and got hammered for free (except tips) before hittin the town. Anyways they let me get away with a lot swinging bets from 5$ to 30$ and taking insurance bets in a really high count (but they dont care on such cheap tables).

Anyways any helpful info would be awesome!!!
Thanks,
Kyran

WooHoo!! Another virgin discovers Vegas.
Posted by Negative Martingale on 27-Jul-2003 08:12:35 (#4639)

Real fast: what is an AP???
AP = Advantage Player ie. one who plays with an advantage.

Also, is there a listing of the variations to basic strategy (the 17 changes) for the Hi-Lo count?

Sure, it is right here at this site. Look for the link to the left labeled System Indices. And it is 18 changes, known as the "I-18".

Also, should you ask for comps even playing at the 5$ table?

Sure, ask away. In fact, ask for comps even if you aren't playing. Why not? If you are polite and aren't causing problems, they might give you a comp to the coffee shop, and they might not. What have you got to lose, no harm in asking, just don't be obnoxious, and say "thank you" no matter what.

Also, has anyone done a basic strategy matrix for Spanish 21??? (10's are missing from deck, player can surrender, player 21 is always paid 3:2 and beats house, 777 paid 3:2, 678 suited bonus, double after any splits allowed, double on any cards, can withdrawl double down bet if next card is bad [but cant get any more cards], seems very favorable to the player if they changed up regular basic strategy.)

Sure. There are even books about the game. www.gamemaster.com I think has a basic strategy. What you will find is that even with modified basic strategy the house edge on this game is still even higher than normal blackjack.

Re: Vegas Game Report and Question!!!!
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Jul-2003 14:03:56 (#4641)

> Also, should you ask for comps even playing at the 5$ table?

Yes.

> Also, has anyone done a basic strategy matrix for Spanish 21???

http://www.wizardofodds.com/games/spanish21.html

> Every casino on the strip had 6 deck games and single deck games.

The single deck games are either "Super Fun 21" or "Single Deck 21" neither of which is actual blackjack, and neither of which can be played for a long term advantage except by a few top experts.

> I found a small place across the street from treasure island called Casino Royale!!! Incredible single deck, and multiple deck games.

Wrong -- incredibly bad 6:5 single deck. Decent double deck.

> I played the 6 deck game 5$ min $500 max bet, penetration at about 80% - 85%!!!!!

That only means you are getting 5:6 dealt out, which is average. But they don't allow LSR (late surrender) and are H17 games, which makes them very weak.

Just because you won on a game, don't think that means the game is good. You played some very poor games and got lucky.

--Mayor

"Single deck blackjack" on the Strip is a ripoff *LINK*
Posted by Al Rogers on 29-Jul-2003 13:50:28 (#4651)

...Casino Royale!!! Incredible single deck...

Did you miss the sign that reads "Blackjacks pay 6 to 5"?

This game is an incredible ripoff. See link below.

coups
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 28-Jul-2003 12:36:40 (#4642)

Is there some sort of resource to find matchplay coupons? I began to realize the value of these things during my last trip, but for someone like me who can only fly into Vegas for a couple of days at a time, scouting for coups might take up too much of my time.

thx
-Felix

Anthony Curtis' website "NM" *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 28-Jul-2003 13:36:46 (#4643)

Exellent, Thank You! *NM*
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 28-Jul-2003 13:43:46 (#4645)

Coups Killed
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Jul-2003 09:21:40 (#4650)

the more excellent coupons were murdered last year and AC himself was telling people off for being so abusive of them. Many of them did not reappear on the 2003 coupie book, but there are a few.

Beyond Counting by Grosjean
Posted by Count Luckula on 28-Jul-2003 14:30:32 (#4646)

I am trying to locate a copy of this book and I have not had any luck. Does anyone know where I can find a copy or does anyone have a copy they would like to sell? I have tried many online gambling bookstores with no luck

Re: Beyond Counting by Grosjean
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Jul-2003 18:53:20 (#4653)

Try contacting him directly through advantageplayer.com

Bj21.com used to have a few copies.

--Mayor

One more question...
Posted by K Huebl on 28-Jul-2003 14:37:33 (#4647)

Is there anywhere on the internet where there is an up-to-date report on where good games are being offered?

What good, if any, blackjack newsletters exist?

How much advantage does the house gain by paying 6:5 on single deck games? Also what is the difference between single deck 21 and single deck blackjack?

Thanks for your time,
Kyran

Re: One more question...
Posted by Learning to count on 28-Jul-2003 17:43:21 (#4648)

HMMMMMM? Lets see???? BJ21.COM has CBJN. AP.COM has Trackjack. BJFONLINE.COM has BJForum. All three are excellent. The only draw back is that they are pricey so you are usually better off subscribing to one. They all do the same provide good intel on the games out there. I subscribe to CBJN. I have subscribed to tracjack when I got in on the introductory price. I liked them both. I am also a green chipper at BJ21. All these sites have paid subscriptions to thier thread sites for interaction with other players. Do your home work and try them out.

Re: One more question...
Posted by Negative Martingale on 29-Jul-2003 07:43:35 (#4649)

21 that only pays 6:5 on blackjack increases the house edge about 800%.
If they only paid even money on blackjack, a normally .38% house edge jumps to over 2%. So in 6:5 blackjack, that $1.50 they rip you off of every $5 bet does add up. You get a blackjack about every 21 hands in the long run. So if you are flat betting $5, you are paying the house about 7 cents a hand additional to play.

The difference between Superfun 21, 6:5 21, and SINGLE DECK BLACKJACK, is the house edge. They try to disguise this with rare special payoff on certain hands, double down on any number of cards, and other favorable rules. However, none of that overcomes the disadvantage of messing with the blackjack payoff.

The usual norm in Vegas downtown for single deck blackjack is dealer hits soft 17, double on any two, no double after splits, no resplit of Aces. Still a pretty good game if you can get a good number of rounds dealt to you. Boomtown in Reno has single deck, dealer stands on soft 17, double on any two, double after split, and this game actually has positive off-the-top advantage if you play strict basic strategy.

Boomtown in Reno
Posted by Running Count on 30-Jul-2003 18:18:13 (#4659)

You wrote: "Boomtown in Reno has single deck, dealer stands on soft 17, double on any two, double after split, and this game actually has positive off-the-top advantage if you play strict basic strategy."

Unless they adopted this game in the last two months, you are mistaken. Boomtown uses standard non-downtown Reno rules: H17, DA2, NDAS. 0.17% house edge. Still, their pen is generally good (Rule of 7), and tolerance of red-chip counters satisfactory. A great game, but not as good as you claim.

No game in the Reno area is S17 for single deck, though one little place has late surrender...

Re: Boomtown in Reno
Posted by CougFan on 31-Jul-2003 12:20:29 (#4664)

Damn. I just checked Trackjack and apparently you are correct. When did Baldini's go to H17?

As far as I know, Boomtown has always been H17. I can personally confirm this as of early June. Also, TJ still lists them as H17.

The difference *LINK*
Posted by Al Rogers on 29-Jul-2003 13:58:17 (#4652)

what is the difference between single deck 21 and single deck blackjack?

There are only a handful of placs in Las Vegas that offer actual single deck blackjack (not the 6/5 scam version), and many of those games have very poor penetration. Current Blackjack News lists them in detail.

See http://www.bj21.com/order/ads/cbjn1.html for detailed information about Current Blackjack News.

"Single deck 21" is usually used to indicate Superfun 21, which is a very different game. Frequently, casino people will lie and tell unsuspecting players that it can be played like regular blackjack. IT CANNOT, unless you want to lose very quickly. See The Mayor's post below, and the "Four Common Casino Blackjack Scams" I linked below.

online blackjack?
Posted by double down dutch on 29-Jul-2003 21:25:02 (#4654)

Just curious if anyone out there is playing online and if you could recommend a reputable site (would like to start with very small stakes)? Obviously the less decks the better!! Thanks & good luck to all.

Re: online blackjack?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 30-Jul-2003 09:17:50 (#4655)

Hi there. I am the one you are looking for. I can send you to a bunch of casinos that offer good blackjack games, with a bonus. Without a bonus, it is not worth playing BJ online, period. Further more, I will give you half of the money the casino gives me for getting them new players. I have about 10 sites that you can earn a kick back from me for playing them. If you are going to play, you might as well get as much $$ for it as possible. Email me at blakjack@idirect.com and I will send you the info and set up your IOU account. Look forward to "team play" with you.

Rob

concur
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Jul-2003 14:06:09 (#4657)

You want to work with Rob on this, he will make you a lot of money.

--Mayor

Attn: Rob McGarvey
Posted by double down dutch on 08-Aug-2003 16:11:09 (#4675)

Rob, I read your response and sent you an e-mail. In case you did not get it, please e-mail me at idfly4u@aol.com... I'd like to team up with you.
thanks

Re: Attn: Rob McGarvey
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Aug-2003 09:55:06 (#4682)

Done. Thanks for the kudo's Mayor. Your stamp of approval holds a LOT of water as I have had numerous people coming on board that say they saw this message.

IOU ?? smile

Double exposure blackjack
Posted by Dman on 30-Jul-2003 13:44:57 (#4656)

Does any one have experience/thoughts on the double exposure black jack game (6 deck)
Big advantage to seeing the dealers hold card
Big disadvantage to loosing pushes

Can an advantage player take this game?
What strategies would you recommend

Re: Double exposure blackjack
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Jul-2003 16:54:08 (#4658)

http://www.wizardofodds.com/games/doubleexposure/doubleexposure.html

I've never heard of anyone playing this game for profit -- not to say it can't be done.

--Mayor

Re: Double exposure blackjack
Posted by Dman on 31-Jul-2003 12:16:40 (#4663)

Thanks for you input!
I have checked out the wizzards site many times and I think it is a great resource. The version I have in town, dealer hits soft 17. On the wizzards site this set of play tables is listed in the 'appendix', however it appears to be a broken link within the site. The only table I can get to there is the dealer stands on soft 17.
Any other sources for this table??

Double exposure for profit
Posted by suicyco maniac on 31-Jul-2003 13:38:39 (#4665)

Wong talks about double exposure in Professional BJ and if I remember right also in BJ Secrets and Basic BJ (I don't have my copies in front of me) If there are decent playable BJ games I would avoid double exposure. The reduction in the BJ bonus and the tie factor make this game tough to beat. The only good thing is each point in your count per deck is worth more in D.E. then in BJ. However if snappers pay 3:2 this changes your edge by 2.3% clearly giving you a HUGE advantage playing basic strategy. SM

Re: Double exposure blackjack
Posted by Lurker on 30-Jul-2003 19:40:26 (#4660)

The "good versions" of this game can be beaten. (Stanford Wong described how to beat it in his "Professional Blackjack") I remember glancing over this chapter and becoming really excited when I saw this game offered at some AC casinos. Then I realized they limited doubling to only 9/10/11s. (No soft doubling) and thus limited your win rate to about 0.1 unit per hour with a 1-10 spread.

You might be able to beat it at some other places tho.

Re: Double exposure blackjack
Posted by Wyrstle on 30-Jul-2003 21:47:04 (#4661)

I've watched and played this game probably far too much. Where I am it is played out of a 5 deck CSM. I like to play it simply because it's kind of mindless and it's a way to take a pause from cencentrating. It's certainly not a game that I would recommend as an advantage player.

Disadvantages
Lose All Ties
Blackjack Pays Even Money
Double 10 and 11 Only
No Resplit
No DAS

Advantage
Get to see what you have to beat. Otherwise keep Miss Cleo on the other end of your cell phone as to whether the next card out of the CSM is big or small.

Best advice I can give you from my observations and win/loss sessions.

Play 2 spots to lower variance

Take as few cards as possible and I mean that literally. For example I will stand on hand totals of 4 to 6 if the dealer hand has a stiff, after all what good is any card other than a 3 to 5/6 going to do for me ?

Never double against a dealer pat hand (17 - 20).

The only way I have really found to maybe beat the game is to take every decent opportunity to get extra money on the table such as splitting and doubling when the dealer has a stiff hand including splitting 10's and doubling blackjacks.

As I said I play it sparingly to take a break but I surely only expect to win if the cards fall right, not through any kind of advantage play.

Re: Double exposure blackjack
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Jul-2003 22:04:23 (#4662)

You should always play basic strategy, as outlined at the website I quoted. That should not be varied, unless you are using a counting system and index numbers to improve your playing effiency.

--Mayor

Indices and decks
Posted by Frank on 02-Aug-2003 01:21:57 (#4666)

Hi all,

I've learned the -1 to 6 indices for the Hi-Low count given in the book Professional Blackjack. I was wondering, does a system of indices apply to all numbers of decks? For example, can I use it for 6-deck games and 2-deck games, as long as they have the same rules?

Thanks,
Frank

SMART CARDS HELP
Posted by WRUGG on 07-Aug-2003 12:32:33 (#4669)

IS SMART CARDS PROGRAM ANY GOOD, HAVE NE ULTRA PLUS DOWN. DOES SMART CARDS HAVE 7 SPOT COUNTING PLUS DEALER HAND, OR A LIMIT TO CARDS SHOWN AT ONCE.

THANKS,

WRUGG

Re: SMART CARDS HELP
Posted by Josey Wales on 07-Aug-2003 21:11:35 (#4673)

The SMART CARDS is a very good practice aid.I belive it has 12 different hand patterns,to pick from well worth the price.

When is your server going to be fixed???? *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 07-Aug-2003 14:34:33 (#4670)

Re: When is your server going to be fixed????
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Aug-2003 20:30:26 (#4672)

They are bankrupt ...

Their phone lines go through a frigging swamp that shorts out every time it rains ...

They are in SouthEast Ohio, which is at least 200 miles from civilization...

They are CHEAP

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