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Threads 841 to 870

New Year's Resolution
Posted by revereman on 03-Jan-2004 14:59:50 (#5975)

The game has become too frustrating for me due to bad luck, fluctuation, variance, roller coaster ride, whatever you want to call it. I will still probably go to LV once a year but I don't need all my literature for that.
So, Revereman's collection is for sale, at about 50% of purchase price. Would prefer to sell as one lot but will be willing to break into two lots, buyer's choice of what he/she wants. Here's what's available, all paperbacks unless otherwise noted.
The Hot Shoe (new DVD by David Layton)
Playing BJ as a Business (Revere)
BJ Secrets (Wong)
BJ Attack, volumes 1 & 2 (Schlesinger)
Professional BJ (Wong)
Million Dollar BJ (Huston)
BJ Your Way to Riches (Canfield)
Best BJ (Scoblete)
LV BJ Diary (Perry)
BJ Bluebook (Renzy)
The Counter (Blackwood)
Blackbelt in BJ (Snyder)
Man with $100,000 Breasts (Konik)
Bringing Down the House, hard cover, MIT team (Mezrich)
Turning the Tables on LV (Anderson)
World's Greatest BJ Book (Humble)
Beat the Dealer (Thorp)
Burning the Tables in LV, hard cover (Anderson)

$165 plus about $15 shipping. All books are in excellent condition except Revere's. If interested, post your email and I will contact you.

Re: New Year's Resolution
Posted by wongout on 04-Jan-2004 08:44:18 (#5977)

Reverman:

I would be interested in about half of your list. I have the other half. E-mail me @ wongout@hotmail.com and we can work out.

Sorry about the variance; bj is a tough game indeed.

wong out

Re: New Year's Resolution
Posted by Shaggy18vw on 04-Jan-2004 11:02:13 (#5978)

As I already own all but two of the books on your list, I am not interested in the purchase. I am however sorry to hear that. I hope someone can make use of your collection.

Re: New Year's Resolution
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 04-Jan-2004 23:22:17 (#5982)

Revereman,

Please step back and take a deep breath.

We would hate to loose you.

-Felix

Re: New Year's Resolution
Posted by revereman on 05-Jan-2004 14:48:12 (#5995)

Even if I don't play too often, I'll still stick around. I've been playing the game many years, and the fun is in the winning, not the playing. As I get older, priorities change. When $5000 can go to college tuition for my kids instead of to a casino, it makes me think twice about playing.

Re: New Year's Resolution
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 07-Jan-2004 09:25:00 (#6032)

Understood,

I only tried to dissuade you from selling all your stuff because your post is not uncommon. And, within a few months after posts like this occcur... guess what?!

-Felix

I know the feeling
Posted by SammyBoy on 05-Jan-2004 12:26:11 (#5989)

I've quit playing a few times myself. I had an overall losing year in 2003. I'm off to a good start in 2004, but If I have another losing year I will have to seriously evaluate my situation and possible hang it up. Many of the places I play are raising their minimums making it very tough for a $10 player to compete. I will add to my bankroll this month, but this will be the last time I add to it from outside sources. If I can't make money this year I will have to find another hobby.

Revereman...
Posted by okie on 05-Jan-2004 13:41:36 (#5994)

Send me an updated list/price when Wongout is finished raiding your collection.
Okie

Okie
Posted by revereman on 05-Jan-2004 19:49:48 (#6000)

He hasn't responded to my email, so everything is up for grabs.

Re: Okie
Posted by wongout on 05-Jan-2004 20:49:16 (#6002)

Revereman:

I am interested in the following:

The Hot Shoe (new DVD by David Layton)
Playing BJ as a Business (Revere)
BJ Your Way to Riches (Canfield)
Best BJ (Scoblete)
BJ Bluebook (Renzy)
Man with $100,000 Breasts (Konik)
Bringing Down the House, hard cover, MIT team (Mezrich)
Beat the Dealer (Thorp) - (1962 edition only)

I tried replying to your email and it bounced 3 times. Anyhow email me a price and payment/shipping instructions and maybe we make a deal!

thanks

wong out

January poll.
Posted by TITO on 04-Jan-2004 12:35:34 (#5980)

Hi, would it not be preferable to compare results by number of max bets won as opposed to units.T.

Re: January poll.
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Jan-2004 13:28:40 (#5981)

Last year I compared results by pure $$$ figures -- this year by units.

I like your idea of max bets won a lot, that's a much more sober way of evaluating our results -- it gives a sense for how little we've really won: just a few max bets here or there one way or the other can change the entire picture for a year. It drives home the point of the long run.

On the other hand, I don't think many of us evaluate our results in those terms in our own records. And "max bet" seems like a more fluid and inconsistent value than unit size.

Let's wait and see what the January 2005 poll looks like 8-)

--Mayor

Re: January poll.
Posted by eyes for 21 on 05-Jan-2004 11:15:24 (#5986)

its a sad day for blackjack counters,
why all the losing play
what are the reasons ?

and maybe the casinos should know results to stop
there nonsense.

Units, Max Units, $$$
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Jan-2004 13:04:17 (#5992)

For me it all boils down to actual USD. There are different spreads for different games, different units ie 5 25 100 etc. Similar to Wongs rules at the sports book site, you can only post your W/L record, not your # of u, you can't use "rouge lines" but in his book line shopping makes the man, not the clothes. I can't hack the atmosphere there. Not a good place for a positive person. If anything any report should have a cross section of info to it, not some vague no unit no $ line running across a colorful background. Go read an annual report for a listed company and you'll get the picture. How about expenses? Many counters never make any profit because they forget to report gas expenses, rooms, etc, as many losing players would be ahead if they worked in their comps, which is a separate issue to me. I think there are better ways of showing how well you did and comparing them to each other.

---U---MU---$---

I think Reverman is honest with himself and has put counting on the back burner as a hobby for a good reason. You can hide behind or brag about your unit count or your max unit count, but it all boils down to dollars and sense.....cents too. And even that? Means little in the bigger picture. Do you ENJOY playing form money? If you do, then you have "loverage." Like leverage but more powerful than a locomotive.

Super Rob

Re: January poll.
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jan-2004 00:59:00 (#6027)

I like dollars per hour myself. That kind of includes everything in the equation, and it's the same way we rate other kinds of jobs. Keeps everything in perspective. It also allows us to compare our actual results to our sims, which is very important, because it lets you make sure that you are reproducing what you are supposed to be doing on paper at the table. None of this is worthwhile if you can't do that. Possibly a lot of people who are regularly losing money are screwing up their counts, it's easy enough to do.

You ask "Why are we all losing?....
Posted by phantom007 on 07-Jan-2004 06:35:57 (#6030)

I answered the Jan. Poll honestly, re: Down for 2003. Total ($4,000.). I lost for the year due to:

1. Craps (I incluced these losses in net for the year).

2. Several "Ploppy melt-downs"...either drunk, or bored, but not both(grin), slipped into old Progressive phase, and other times, overbet B/R when I had neg. fluctuations, "trying to get back to even". Suprisingly, during many of these times, I often did get back to even, then only to keep playing.

However, for most everyone else, and somewhat for myself, I suspect we are losing because:

1. Most of us are still LEARNING, experimenting with different counting systems, casino skills, etc. IMHO, most of us attending this and/or similar sites are Learning. Case-in-point, OCKO...one of his/her last posts was to nature of "I won't be posting anymore...I need my time to play BJ".

2. Inadequate B/R's...IF a average American earns $37,000./yr., sits aside $2,000. for BJ, then loses $1,000., he/she may either stop playing or get so conservative that there is little chance to finish the year as a Winner.

3. Bad Games...6:5 BJ, poor pen., etc.

4. Not counting Comps in Winnings.

5. Not deducting BJ expenses (When Legitimate) from taxes.

6. Not Long-term losses...most of us have day/night jobs, and likely average less than 200-300 hrs. of true table time/yr. 37% of us being down/losing is not unexpected.

7. And Don't Forget...Those DAMN Ploppies who always take the Dealer's Bust Card (smile).

phantom007.

Re: You ask "Why are we all losing?....
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jan-2004 22:58:19 (#6040)

Phantom- well OK, including losses from craps is not really an accurate way of measuring your success as a card counter. You might as well include losses in the stock market- not the same game. Sometimes I play a little low stakes VP before a BJ session for relaxation and cover and I don't include that in my accounting (even though I hit a straight flush last month and I'm up.)

It's also not the same game if you are playing BJ without counting, retrogressing to progressions or something like that. I admit, I steam (overbet high counts when down because I am sick of being down) sometimes but doing that is still within the realm of advantage play because the odds are still in your favor, just very risky for the bankroll.

True, playing craps or something else occasionally might increase your longevity at a casino by more than it decreases your profit. Maybe set a limit for yourself, no more than 10% of your card counting BJ action should be offered to cover games; craps, Spanish 21, BJ with autoshufflers.

Losing
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Jan-2004 14:23:29 (#6052)

well if you know you have not been playing wisely, that is one thing, but you can also have a down year due to the swings in the game. With a 1% advantage its like swinging across the monkey bars. Each time you move your hand forward, your feet swing back and forth but soon enough you get to double your BR. Which could be $100, 100K, or x units.

Re: Losing
Posted by Jim2 on 25-Jan-2004 17:18:55 (#6376)

May be that the games are "influenced" by other factors. I often wonder why counters do not win at greater rates than they do. Seems like most counters are experiencing results lower than EV. I think that there are dealers sent to "take care" of players winning at too high a rate. I know that there are dealers able to deal seconds right in front of me, they are that good. It wouldn't take a very large percentage of hands to turn around a session. I also think that the large casinos in LV are pretty confident that they can act with impunity,

Amusing Story
Posted by DoctorJames on 05-Jan-2004 02:56:11 (#5983)

-situation- My buddy and I are scoping out establisments in our area to see how accurate their ads for "liberal blackjack rules" are. After driving by a few that looked "too" shady for us to want to go in, we see a place to our right, and pull my mustang in via 'powerslide'. (it came up fast outta no where) Not looking good, since I see a sign that says, "Parking in Rear", that sign has always scared me... but at this point was still opptomistic. We get inside and see a big banner advertising Two-Deck Blackjack! Liberal Rules! So I walk around looking for the rules, which in this sort of establisment my state government requires them to have the rules clearly posted in a visible place. Not finding them. Ask the door guard, he doesnt know where they are. I look around more, and finally see a stack of plywood, with black background and white letters with the rules, propped against the wall. Classy.
Low and behold, good rules! Actually allowed DAS! Stupid me forgot to see if they allowed surrender, (I have as much chance finding surrender as I do getting a date with Carmen Electra) I was so inwardly pumped about DAS I was distracted too much to check. If they did allow surrender, I would have been running out to my car, starting it, turning on the reading light, and boning up on surrender stratedgy. So, you are wondering... 'where's the catch?' The 2d game was $25min.(25min, not in my bankroll) The rest were 8-deck! Oh well, with the rules, it was still better than the game I normally play. So here comes the funny parts... The later relates to the 25$ 2 deck game.
-I am playing the 5$ 8 decker-
Dealer O (for old): "Damn it kid, why do you hit that 12 against my 3" "Sometimes it is good to split tens, it depends on the situation, and if your paying attention" "Insurance is a sucker bet" "You should listen to an old man, I have seen more hands of Bj than you have!" "Consistency only applies to hit/stand, not to double down (doubling 11 vs. ten up)"
-all these statements where funny to me, being that some are true in one light, and in another they are more than not. Furthermore, if he knew Bj so well he wouldnt be dealing it.-

dealer YBM (for young blonde male):
I ask: So do these 5 dollar tables ever have 2 decks playing on them ?
YBM: No, they used to, but we had problems with people counting cards.
I exclaim: No shit?!
YBM: Yeah, they would bet 5, 5, 5, 5, then all the sudden 100 100 100, when the time was right.
I exclaim: Jesus, thats unreal!
YBM: *nods*
I ask: So did making it 25min help?
YBM: Oh yeah, it helped managment, but it sucks for us dealers.
I ask: Why?
YBM: The tokes went down, and now we just stand at the table with nothing to do and get bored.
I say (while upping my bet during a TC of 4): I am sorry to hear about the tokes, but at least people arent coming in and stealing your paycheck off the table.
YBM: Yeah no shit, but I think the tokes would more than cover it on my end.
(side note: i never toke, unless i think i will get something for it... which is damn close to never)
-I was laughing so hard inside during this conversation, my buddy was two seats to my left and counting, and a friend of ours in-between who never played before who we were 'showing' him what to do. My counting buddy came out 52 units up over 2 hours, I was 8 units down, and the newb was 17 units up. Once we got outside after havin a cocktail, we laughed for a good 10 minutes while our newbie friend just looked at us in puzzlement-

Re: Amusing Story
Posted by eyes for 21 on 05-Jan-2004 11:15:55 (#5987)

Its not amusing to lose money buddy.

Re: Amusing Story
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-Jan-2004 19:21:28 (#5998)

Wow man that sounds like a good night out despite the loss. Hope the big winner bought drinks and dinner. Sometimes a dealer starts talking to me about these card counters, and I act like I don't believe it exists. "No way man, these guys think they can tell what the next card is going to be? I don't believe that. That was like in that Rainman movie." Meanwhile I am spreading like a sorority girl at a med school graduation party. Practicing talking and counting at the same time is useful.

Re: Amusing Story
Posted by DoctorJames on 06-Jan-2004 06:17:11 (#6004)

*laughs*

Yeah, it was a good time. My loss wasnt a bad one, I have had worse. I just was not winning the big bets, I won more on lower Tc's, just that kind of night. The big winner did by drinks and grub: much to my delight. Anytime we hop in my stang and look for (new to us) action, it is likely a good time is to be had.

Midnight Cruises
Posted by Dschddny on 05-Jan-2004 08:09:27 (#5984)

Anyone ever play on "midnight cruises"? My fear is that if I am too obvious counting and then asked to "leave", I will be stuck on the ship with nowhere else to play! How is the heat on these cruises compared to land casinos such as Atlantic City?

Thanks!

Atlantic City
Posted by Dschddny on 05-Jan-2004 09:07:36 (#5985)

Anyone know which casinos on the boardwalk generally have the lowest table limits on a Saturday (9am-5pm)? I'm looking for the most $5 minimums, as I'm just starting out as a card-counter.

Thanks!

Re: Atlantic City
Posted by BlackJackHack on 05-Jan-2004 12:36:43 (#5991)

At off peak times, most AC casinos will have some $5 tables (all 8D except for Borgata, which is 6D). On Saturdays (daytime), your best bets are: Wild Wild West (adjacent to Bally's), Bally's (upstairs room open only on weekends), and Sands (low limit room upstairs open on weekends). All of the above are 8D S17 DAS. If you go early enough, Borgata might have two $5 tables (6D S17 DAS) in the low limit pit (in front of Noodles of the World), but they will be mobbed and it will be tough to get a seat. In peak hours, these tables go to $10 or $15 and will remain mobbed.

A piece of advice: WONG IN. The AC casinos are big, and Saturday daytime would be an excellent time for wonging. If you're only wonging in on positive shoes, you won't have to limit yourself to the very few $5 tables that you'll find. If you were planning on spreading $5-$100, for example, you could instead wong in at TC+2 at $25 and spread 1:4 up to $100, and wong out at TC=0. This is a much more lucrative way to play. The only downside is that you have to stand a lot.

Re: Atlantic City
Posted by DoctorJames on 06-Jan-2004 06:37:22 (#6005)

A personal opionion in relation to this thread and another.

Is it possible the reported losses are linked to a lack of proper and disiplined wonging out ? My buddy and I have said to each other time and again, it is no good to be a counter if the count is always (exagerating) negative. So you learn some low count indices... I dont think it is worth it, so now we scout for superb rules for our turf, superb pen, which btw the last joint we scoped out was great, and are looking for places we can wong as we please. With two of us in the small card rooms we use a sort of team approach, I sit down and he stands and watches counting, I flat bet till the shuffle and right after, then do my thing, if the count is up he sits and bets big, if not I play a few and move to a different table, he sticks around and sits at the original table when it doesn get high. I start counting the table I am at, He looses, and joins back up with me, if there is a stack of chips in my circle he sits and bets big, if not I stand, rinse, and repeat. This way we can use a team type stradedgy in a small club without looking like we are attached at the hip and both winning.

The Good News !
Posted by BradRod on 05-Jan-2004 12:32:38 (#5990)

Got the year off to a good start. Played 8.75 hours for a positive result up 92.33 units at 2 cainos. That is 10.55 units/hour at advantage play. Got backed off from one casino though.

Results of one of our own ...
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Jan-2004 19:15:40 (#5997)

Here are the results for one frequent visitor to this site who asked if I could upload this -- it looks like life was good there for a while...

Re: Results of one of our own ...
Posted by BradRod on 05-Jan-2004 19:56:35 (#6001)

Thanks Mayor.

The graph is for the period January 2, 2003 - December 30, 2003

Approximately 1500 hours. The big finish that I was hoping for turned into a setback and I finished the year up 1000 units which translates into approx .66/ hour. I think that I need to find better games to play at. By the end of the year I had finally expanded to all the IL18 and that has helped some.

Re: Results of one of our own ...
Posted by Mr Pill on 06-Jan-2004 12:12:34 (#6006)

BradRod,

Looks your your change in counts has worked out for you. I believe that when we had exchanged emails back in Jan. 03 you were talking about leaving the KO count for somthing more advanced. As you may remember I use the Red-7.

Did you change? If so what did you move to?

We have a trip planned for Vegas in the very near future and hope to have a good time and good cards.

We will have to play together sometime at our home sites. Glad to see that you graph is taking an upward drift!

Pill

Re: Results of one of our own ...
Posted by BradRod on 06-Jan-2004 13:23:15 (#6010)

Hey mr. Pill

Thanks. I keep looking for you in those early morning hours. They changed the tables around again in case you have not been over the holidays.

The system is UBZ-II. works very well for me.

i would like to ge to vegas one of these days also. When I play away it is either borgata AC or Foxwoods CT. Good luck to you in vegas. let me know how it goes.

Brad

Re: Results of one of our own ...
Posted by Dschddny on 06-Jan-2004 14:16:06 (#6011)

Brad, what are the conditions like at Foxwoods, as compared to AC (or Mohegan Sun)?

Thanks.

Re: Results of one of our own ...
Posted by BradRod on 06-Jan-2004 14:23:24 (#6013)

I find foxwoods more favorable than mohegsn sun and most atlantic city casinos. Even though they use 8 decks they generally have great penetration and like mohegan sun they allow late surrender.

Mohegan sun has very poor penetration.

Most atlantic city casinos are 8 deck w/ mediocre penetration, lousy rules, and no surrender. the notable exception to these conditions in AC is borgato with a good 6 deck game. good rules, good penetration but still no late surrender

Great News
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Jan-2004 13:06:21 (#6008)

Nice to see you are on top of the game. Keep up the hard work and it will pay you for it. Hope those are black units! smile

thanks rob
Posted by BradRod on 06-Jan-2004 14:24:39 (#6014)

not playing black yet but working my way there.

please e-mail me. bradrod@surfree.com

Re: thanks rob
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Jan-2004 14:05:32 (#6050)

I emailed you. Did you get it?? robmcgarvey@rogers.com

Re: Results of one of our own ...
Posted by Feep on 06-Jan-2004 19:10:10 (#6023)

How was this generated? My excel spreadsheet can only graph per session. I would like to generate a more "accurate" hourly chart for myself as well.

PS: Good job. Those upswings are almost as hard to takes as the downs.

Feep

Re: Results of one of our own ...
Posted by BradRod on 08-Jan-2004 21:00:03 (#6054)

Quattro Pro allows you to set series parameters for the x and y axis.
for the x axis I use the column in which I keep a running count of hours played.

<<<< Those upswings are almost as hard to takes as the downs>>>

yes, its true but there are some offsetting benefits : )

Apology
Posted by wongout on 05-Jan-2004 20:56:58 (#6003)

I just recently got a hotmail account and have been checking it pretty frequently and didnt see any mail in there. Anyhow today (in response to reverman's post) I looked harder and found out that I had a few messages from posters that I wasnt aware of. I wasnt familiar with the protocol for displaying new mail on the acct. So I owe a few people some responses and will get them out asap; prob early next week. I am sick at the moment and am resting up because I want to take a couple couples of days off and make it a 4 day weekend in "sin city." I apologize for the delay.

wong out

Varying Bets
Posted by Dschddny on 06-Jan-2004 13:00:11 (#6007)

I understand that it pays to vary your bet based on your advantage - the higher your advantage, the higher your bet should be.

So, why is it that your bet should NOT be varied when doubling-down? Why not do a full double-down when you have your best advantage (e.g. 11 vs dealer 6) and double-down for less when you have less of an advantage (e.g. 9 vs dealer 3)?

Re: Varying Bets
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Jan-2004 14:23:07 (#6012)

By "doubling for less" you may reduce your EV on the double down below the point of merely hitting. For example if you double T vs. 7, and draw a 2, you can't hit again, so is it really worth it to give up the right to hit again just because of that extra $1 you invested on the "double for less?"

However, you have a good point -- here is an example (more or less made up).

Suppose you are at a +5 and hitting T vs. T or doubling T vs. T is your decision. You have a max bet out. The decision to double would force you to match your max bet to get just a little bit of extra EV out of this, thus effectively putting out a max bet to generate a very small edge on that money. Because of this phenomenon, many use what are called "risk adverse indices" which work to maximize the ration EV/SD rather than simply maximizing the quantity EV. These indices have you doubling at slightly higher indices, but taking insurance (or surrendering) at slightly lower indices.

--Mayor

DD 4 Less
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Jan-2004 14:13:25 (#6051)

is only advised for neg EV plays like split 8,8 vs 9 10 and 11 and some plays that very seldom happen these days. See Theory of Blackjack.

Re: DD 4 Less
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Jan-2004 22:59:56 (#6057)

You mean split for less? (8,8) Wow, where can I do that?

Re: DD 4 Less
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Jan-2004 08:14:49 (#6062)

Depends on casino or pit boss at times. All you can do is give it a shot. I've been told no and yes, but I don't ask, I just do it. It'll piss you off when your D4L gets a 3 and your big hand gets a 7 ;>

Some days, ya just can't win at the tables. Suck it up and take your beating like a man!! ;>

Bet Spread for $400 bankroll
Posted by Dschddny on 06-Jan-2004 13:13:23 (#6009)

What kind of bet spread do you think would be reasonable to use for a (mere) $400 bankroll?

Thanks.

P.S. Figure out this code to prove my theory:
caabrcddceofugnhtiejrkslamrneospmqarrstteurvtwhxaynzpalbocpdpeifegsh

Re: Bet Spread for $400 bankroll
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Jan-2004 14:24:53 (#6015)

I would say a max bet of $5 is about right for this. You can spread $1-$5 at the Western or Golden Spike downtown.

As for your code, delete every other letter:

caabrcddceofugnhtiejrkslamrneospmqarrstteurvtwhxaynzpalbocpdpeifegsh

c a r d c o u n t e r s a r e s m a r t e r t h a n p l o p p i e s.

-Mayor

Re: Bet Spread for $400 bankroll
Posted by Dschddny on 06-Jan-2004 14:56:13 (#6017)

Good job figuring out the code. I knew I was right!

Given that a $1-$5 spread is right for a $400 bankroll, I guess I'm taking a big chance by going to AC where the minimums are going to be $5 (if I'm lucky)?

Re: Bet Spread for $400 bankroll
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Jan-2004 15:23:16 (#6018)

You are not taking a chance at all -- if you always overbet your bankroll (as determine by the Kelly criterion) by more than 2x, then you are 100% certain to go broke.

There is no chance at all here...

Here's a code for you:

hfubkpcboecvjmezpvscbolspmm

--Mayor

Re: Bet Spread for $400 bankroll
Posted by Count Luckula on 06-Jan-2004 15:37:34 (#6020)

>You are not taking a chance at all -- if you always overbet your bankroll (as >determine by the Kelly criterion) by more than 2x, then you are 100% certain >to go broke.
>
>There is no chance at all here...
>
>Here's a code for you:
>
>hfubkpcboecvjmezpvscbolspmm
>
>--Mayor

That's funny. When I first started reading your code, I thought it was a bit mean. You should have just left the first half.

If I recall correctly Dschddny said that he was a student in an earlier post. I don't see anything wrong w/ playing a higher ROR, if you are starting small and adding to your bankroll through other means. AC is a tough place to play though, and you need to use a pretty large spread to make it even close to worth your time. I go once in a while and spread at least 5-100. It's more worth it for me to fly somewhere else to play a better game. With $400 you can get wiped out very quickly spreading your bet. With that roll, the most you should do in AC is hang out with your friends and practice counting (or back-counting). I would suggest you wong, but you shouldn't even be betting enough to make it worth your while. Build the bankroll. If you've been studying and practicing, by the time that's ready, you will be too.

Re: Bet Spread for $400 bankroll
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Jan-2004 17:50:50 (#6021)

"You are not taking a chance at all -- if you always overbet your bankroll (as determine by the Kelly criterion) by more than 2x, then you are 100% certain to go broke.

There is no chance at all here..."

On the contrary, nothing is 100% certain in the game. People have started out underfunded and with good breaks and disciplined play had a lot of success, and others have started out with a proper bankroll and seen ruin. This is a positive expectation game for us and with any luck at all our bankroll will increase to proper Kelly for whatever stake we are comfortable playing, just as easily as a negative expectation player's bankroll evaporates before he walks away from the table. I started out playing $15 tables with $500 in my pocket this October and now I'm playing $25 with $3000 (High-Low, 6D, LSR, S17, DAS). Lucky, yes. But let's say I lose my $500 bankroll, I just have to wait until Friday to get another one. So you could say that as long as you have a job with steady disposable income you have an unlimited bankroll, and if you don't have such a job you might want to consider steering clear of all gaming.

Every one of us here has seen a bad player turn $500 into $3000 in a couple of shoes, no reason a good player can't do it taking months.

Re: Bet Spread for $400 bankroll
Posted by revereman on 06-Jan-2004 15:32:35 (#6019)

Yes, you are taking a big chance with a $400 bankroll and minimum $5 bets. Conventional wisdom is that you need a 1:8 to 1:12 spread to beat the shoes of AC. Maybe you can lessen the spread a little by aggressive wonging but that will be almost impossible since there are so few $5 tables in AC. Once you leavr that table, there will be 10 people to take your place. If you just sit iut the negative counts, I will take even money that you will be shot or stabbed. Here's my advice: bet $5 to $40 with the count, sit out/take breaks in negative counts if you can. Oh yeah, and pray a lot because you are playing to a very high risk of ruin. What's the difference between praying in church and praying in a casino? You mean it in a casino. You gotta start somewhere, asuming you know basic strategy and your count down cold. It would be a little better if you could start with a $1000.

Re: Bet Spread for $400 bankroll
Posted by Dschddny on 07-Jan-2004 09:13:45 (#6031)

<<If you just sit iut the negative counts, I will take even money that you will be shot or stabbed. >>

I am planning to wong in when the count goes positive, sit out (as much as possible) when the count is slightly negative, and wong out when the count is very negative. Does sitting out hands really piss people off? Any suggestions on how to deal with ploppy heat?

Re: Bet Spread for $400 bankroll
Posted by revereman on 07-Jan-2004 14:23:20 (#6036)

Yes, sitting out hands really pisses people off (changes the flow of the cards) and people in AC are not shy about voicing their displeasure. Some AP's say f*ck the other players but it does make it very unpleasant to play. That's why it's best to sit out after a dealer BJ or a seven-card dealer 21 (the real reason, of course, is because the count is now negative). When people get pissed off when I change between 1 and 2 hands, I can deal with it because I've developed a thick skin after many years of play. As a newbie, you may feel the displeasure of others more than a veteran.
However, YOUR MAIN PROBLEM here is the real lack of $5 tables in AC. With 10 people looking to take your spot when you sit out a hand or hands, you are going to have a hard time keeping your seat. Likewise, opportunities to wong in are going to be very few and far between.

Re: Bet Spread for $400 bankroll
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jan-2004 14:44:25 (#6038)

I do a lot of sitting out bad counts too. If the hands have been bad I'll say something like "I'm going to sit one out, try to change our luck here" and the players will act like you are doing them a favor when in reality you are screwing them.

You can pretend you are getting a call on your vibrating phone, that can be a fun one. If the count is low enough that there is little chance of it coming back that shoe, you can go to the bathroom. I drink and pretend to be drunk when I play, so I have even run to the bathroom pretending I had to vomit. Funny, nobody complained about me running away from the table when I did that. They did stop serving me with booze though.

The bathroom is your friend at the casino, as it's one place where you can be sure there is no camera. (That has been determined to be illegal.) That's why an upscale casino is one of the last places on earth with restroom attendants, that guy is providing a security function. But you can go in a stall and transfer chips and money from pocket to pocket, study your playbook, pass notes with an accomplice, etc.

Re: Bet Spread for $400 bankroll
Posted by BradRod on 06-Jan-2004 14:30:35 (#6016)

i should hope so . it is because we can filter out the exterraneuos noise and they don't even know it is there. very cute.

Dealing with a cheat
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Jan-2004 18:02:17 (#6022)

Sooner or later I'm going to see it, a dauber, a bender, a bet-capper, a dealer bottom-dealing. Now I realize these are all very different situations, but I was wondering who has seen these before and what is the best way for me to react?

The possible responses I can think of are: walk away, run away, complain quietly, complain loudly, ignore it and react in no way, or try to use the situation to my playing advantage. As a counter I'd just as soon have no cheating at all at the table because it will subject the whole table to added scrutiny and could affect the odds of the game to my detriment. Or maybe the attention would be focused on the cheat and away from me, allowing me to spread more. My first instinct would be to just get up and leave. But I could be wrong, maybe there's a better way to react?

Re: Dealing with a cheat
Posted by revereman on 06-Jan-2004 21:07:11 (#6024)

First instincts are often right--just get up and leave--for the reasons you mentioned. In my opinion, you don't want to be anywhere near cheating on either side of the table. You just want to be another gambler that the pit doesn't notice, or even better, thinks is a typical ploppy.

I pulled...
Posted by AnonThisTime on 07-Jan-2004 01:03:24 (#6028)

off Carlson's "Quadruple down" the other week. The player at 3rd base made some sort of comment, but everyone stuck around. It actually was quite exhilerating.

Re: I pulled...
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 07-Jan-2004 09:34:23 (#6033)

Wow! That is pretty cool. Why don't you try shoplifting a pack of smokes at your nearest carry-out store? You will probably get the same thrill.

Re: I pulled...
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Jan-2004 10:42:39 (#6034)

It is one thing to take advantage of errors by the house, it is another to intentionally past-post, cap your bet, or quadruple down. Please don't make a habit of it, or we may be sending you postcards.

That said, I have my own confession. I doubled down on a max bet and pulled a total of 20. The dealer pulled a 9 card 21 with 7 aces in it (ok, I exaggerate, but you know the feeling). I grabbed my money on the table and shouted "push!" -- the dealer made me put it back, one relenting quarter at a time, until it was all there.

This is the only time I tried out-and-out thievery, and I am not proud of it.

However, this makes for an interesting thread, and I hope others will 'fess up.

--Mayor

Re: I pulled...
Posted by revereman on 07-Jan-2004 15:29:22 (#6039)

I have to say in almost 25 years of playing, I have never cheated. Unless you say that not telling a dealer that I was paid on a push or loss is cheating. I do not consider that cheating at all, especially there have probably been just as many times when a dealer tried to take my winning or pushed bet (by mistake, not cheating I believe). I would say that both sides of that equation happen maybe 2-3 times a year. I don't not cheat (nice double negative) because of my high moral standards but more from the fear of getting caught. Unless you're playing really high stakes where it's worth cheating and you're really good at it, I don't think it's worth cheating. Just my humble opinion.

Ethical or not?
Posted by feep on 08-Jan-2004 01:01:17 (#6041)

This last year I gave a VERY talkative female dealer $400 and was given 3 blacks and 8 greens in return. Neither she or anyone else noticed, and then two hands later said: "Did I give you two or three black chips?" I responded "I dunno I think two?" (I had a few more blacks at my spot now, as I had been making max bets of ~$250 and had won). She said "Well the cameras will see it..." in a semi-authoritarian voice. I said "Oh, good, should we ask?" in my most innocent ploppy oh-dear-I-hope-Robert-De-Niro-doesn't-pop-out-and-break-my-fingers voice. She responded "Never mind." I had assumed she would not want her error revealed, called her bluff, and it worked.

That was the edge for me, and as close to cheating as I have ever, or will ever, get.

Now I know none of us have any problem with taking a pay on push, or push on a loss. But was that ethical or not? I kinda feel bad about that one.

Feep

Re: Ethical or not?
Posted by revereman on 08-Jan-2004 08:39:04 (#6043)

I wouldn't call it ethical what you did but as far as I am concerned, you did nothing wrong. The ethical thing would have been to return the chips (read today's Wall Street Journal on Japan's take on ethics). I've ALMOST gotten more chips than I deserved, but the casino's checks and balances worked. It is the casino's responsibility to make sure their customers are not overpaid. I also don't believe in telling a clerk/cashier that they have given me too much change, but that's me.

Re: Ethical or not?
Posted by Learning to count on 08-Jan-2004 10:00:19 (#6047)

"The ethical thing would have been to return the chips..."

Ethics and law are two different things. Laws are a agreed upon way we want to society to run. Ethics are how we agree enmasse in our unique cultures of how we should "do the right thing". Law cover all ethics all ethics are not covered by law. Since ethics differ from culture to culture and mentality to mentality how can this act be unethical. In your mind truth will hold he should have given it back.

Saying that he not returning the chips was not ethical in this situation is an interesting way to view this. I humbly disagree. His action was equal to the intent of the casinos to use false hope to lure the suckers in and take ALL thier money. His action was not illegal. Ethical or unethical is hard to judge in the casino enviroment. Hell why dont the casino's admit to the customers that the only win in there game is for the casino and all their advertising for 99% slot payback is bullsh!t. I could go on and on with what I have seen and so could you reverman. When the casino bottom out a drunk sucker they toss em and tell him to come back when he has more cash. I've seen it and so have many other AP's.

This is a philosophical question for sure. Was he wrong? "No". Was he unethical. "NO". This is the AP world for sure. The ploppies can do what they want. Giving back a person thier wallet when they drop it is "the right thing to do". Giving back a thief his stole goods is "wrong". The right thing is to give it to the authorities and turn in the thief. The casinos, they are thieves. SO who you going to give the overpayment to? If you want to do the right thing I guess you can split it up amongst the ploppies and tell them to go home and pay thier mortgage. Its funny a lot of people will gve the casino back the money and not call the cops on the thief! IMHO!

Re: Ethical or not?
Posted by revereman on 08-Jan-2004 11:56:51 (#6049)

We are really not as far apart as you seem to think. However, in my mind, laws are the collective societal thinking of what is right and wrong and ethics are what each individual thinks is right and wrong. In your thinking, two wrongs do make a right. Because casinos have no ethics, it's ok to screw them by taking their overpayments. That's not my reasoning. My reasoning for taking the overpayment (and any other mistakes they make) is that they are responsible for their own protection, not me (just like cashier/clerk who gives me too much change). Nobody is forcing anybody to gamble in a casino. If you don't like the rules or the odds, don't play the game. Just like an insurance company is not in the business of providing insurance (they are in the business of making money), casinos are not in the business of giving their money away.
If anyone saw the show Vegas this week, why would the Blue Man Group shred the $75,000? Would you have returned the $75,000? (I think you know my answer).

Re: Ethical or not?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Jan-2004 22:45:29 (#6055)

Now wait a minute, the casinos are not thieves. If they are, then we are accessories to theft, and we are going home with stolen property in our pockets after we play. Gambling is an adult decision, and I have reason to believe that the people sitting at that table are all adults, know what the odds are, and choose to take their chances anyway.

This is a game, our opponents are the casinos and sometimes our opponents make mistakes. It is no more unethical than a chessplayer taking advantage of an opponent's mistake. We're under no obligation to tell our opponents they have made a mistake, just like a dealer is not obliged to tell a weak player he is making a bad decision.

If you like a dealer and don't want to damage the human interconnection, that transcends all games and all money, by lying about an overpay, you can answer "You might have but I'm not sure" or "I prefer not to answer" or "I don't want either you or me to get in trouble so I'm not going to say."

Re: Ethical or not?
Posted by Learning to count on 09-Jan-2004 09:49:00 (#6066)

"Now wait a minute, the casinos are not thieves. If they are, then we are accessories to theft, and we are going home with stolen property in our pockets after we play."

The casinos have a distinct history of violating laws and injuring "LEGAL" advantage players. You are naive.

" Gambling is an adult decision, and I have reason to believe that the people sitting at that table are all adults, know what the odds are, and choose to take their chances anyway."

The new games are designed to psychologically addict weak people and to take 100% of your money. The law sets standards for the games and this is what creates the weaknesses for advantage play. Any game that allows you to haveodds has a built in weakness that at some pint can be taken advantage of. Even the big wheel. Gambling is an adult descision. Advantage play is a intellectual skill. The casinos promote gambling which is losing. The casinos will go as far as violating the laws to stop skilled LEGAL play. You sound like a gambler not a advantage player.

"This is a game, our opponents are the casinos and sometimes our opponents make mistakes. It is no more unethical than a chessplayer taking advantage of an opponent's mistake. We're under no obligation to tell our opponents they have made a mistake, just like a dealer is not obliged to tell a weak player he is making a bad decision."

I agree now you sound like a inetelligent AP! The only problem is when the casino makes mistakes that cost you and you miss it they seldom if never correct it unless you complain.

""If you like a dealer and don't want to damage the human interconnection, that transcends all games and all money, by lying about an overpay, you can answer "You might have but I'm not sure" or "I prefer not to answer" or "I don't want either you or me to get in trouble so I'm not going to say." ""

Ploppy nonsense! Please stick to advantage play thinking. "If you like a dealer" jeeze like Louis XIV of france liked his executioner. He tipped him before he pulled the lever on the guillotin. Please we are talking about advantage play not gambling. IMHO

Re: Ethical or not?
Posted by feep on 10-Jan-2004 12:39:12 (#6086)

I get this and it makes sense to me. I'm "stealing" from thieves. I do absolutely return wallets should I find them. I guess therefore I wouldn't have a problem with outright cheating except I have a strange revulsion to being beaten and jailed.

Thanks for the insight guys...

Feep

Re: Ethical or not?
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Jan-2004 16:41:39 (#6094)

""I get this and it makes sense to me. I'm "stealing" from thieves. I do absolutely return wallets should I find them. I guess therefore I wouldn't have a problem with outright cheating except I have a strange revulsion to being beaten and jailed.

Thanks for the insight guys...

Feep""

1)Stealing/theft is a criminal act.

2)Nevada supreme court ruled that dealer mistakes to wit: over payments, and card flashes, etc. etc.. are not criminally liable for the player who takes advantage of them.

3)Ethics depending on what truths you believe can go either way.
When I play I play in a legal manner and I take advantage of the casinos mistakes.

4)SO ditch this sh!T about stealing from thieves.

On to more important things....

Re: Ethical or not?
Posted by Feep on 12-Jan-2004 15:46:54 (#6139)

Thus the "quotes" around "stealing". I honestly think it is theft in an ethical sense, but not in the criminal sense. I'm not interested in stealing in the criminal sense. Ethical? Not usually but in this case not bothered...

Ok... more important stuff...

NYTimes, not WSJ (nt)
Posted by revereman on 08-Jan-2004 10:46:35 (#6048)

xxxxxxxx

Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!
Posted by Learning to count on 08-Jan-2004 08:49:11 (#6045)

Feep,

Taking advantage of dealer errors such as card flashes, over mispayments,
or mistaken pushes is not cheating. If you feel that you are taking bread out of the casinos mouth then you are being naive. The casinos are there to take advantage of player greed: "The hope or belief that you will win material pleasure from wagering your mortgage payement." The casinos are "evil" and we are degenerates. We are addicted to gambling.

The only difference is we are skilled enough to take the casino's money by beating them at thier own game. We can overcome the VIG. We can also take advantage of free rooms, free food, and even get them to pay for our flights!

What you did is advantage play. Dont listen to the morons who constantly berate advantage players for taking advantage of these dealer errors or for "not" tipping the dealers; (and believe it or not tipping a dealer to give special consideration in the game such as deeper penetration or a little flash is the foundation for probable cause for a charge/arrest for cheating). "So ignore this silly ploppy advice about influencing the dealer with a tip." Tipping hurts the EV!!!!!

The dealers are part of one big casino scam. Which is to take ALL your money.

Congrats on your positive EV. I hope the camera did catch her mistake then maybe she will get a real job like a cashier at K-mart or a professional dog walker or a tire changer at Sears or maybe she will go to school and learn something like dentistry or law. She sounded like a jerk I played against my last trip to Vegas. I did not tip her and she visibly sneered with a groaning sound when she had to pay me my winning hands which were plenty against her. She was a career casino NAZI/LIFER.

Oh and take LV Bear's advice if you suspect a cheating issue is at hand leave the table. The eye in the sky has no intellectual ability to discern legal or illegal play. Some of the people watching these cameras have even less intellectual abilities as well. Just look at all the state of Nevada's recent lost Casino cases; of false arrest and false charges. If the dealer is the front line of defense for the casino so why are they so dumb????

Re: Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Jan-2004 22:58:26 (#6056)

"What you did is advantage play. Dont listen to the morons who constantly berate advantage players for taking advantage of these dealer errors or for "not" tipping the dealers; (and believe it or not tipping a dealer to give special consideration in the game such as deeper penetration or a little flash is the foundation for probable cause for a charge/arrest for cheating). "So ignore this silly ploppy advice about influencing the dealer with a tip." Tipping hurts the EV!!!!!"

That's true, it hurts the EV. So does the drive out to that infamously named town of Mound House after a long night of gaming. But it makes me feel good. Your money is worthless unless you enjoy it.

The tipping also will help me from wearing out my welcome at the table. Understand that an experienced dealer will realize you are counting before the pit or surveillance, and being it isn't cheating he can report you or not at his option. Don't make him decide between that spot at his table going to a counter who definitely doesn't tip and a ploppy who probably will tip. He cares about his EV too. All the experts I've read say that you cannot hide forever, but you can get them to tolerate you.

Re: Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Jan-2004 08:39:10 (#6064)

I can confess to cheating the casinos out of money, actually breaking the rules, but it is up to the dealer and PB to catch me doing it, like it is up to a cop to catch a Z3 when all you can see is two red dots disappearing in the $100 lane. The pit can turn a blind eye, or go postal on you. A few $1 tips can make the dif. I tip large when I get a good meal and good service, so a few whites played for the house don't mean squat to me. If ya can't tip a few whites without killing your edge you should stick to warming up the couch watching football. Remember the battle of New Orleans. Let them form ranks and make rules. You breakem and takem down. Find their benedict arnolds and take care of them, and they will do the same for you. The world is full of mercenaries. You have seen the enemy? I'm sucking the juice out of their bones with a bib around my neck.

Hanibal McLectar

Re: Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!
Posted by Learning to count on 09-Jan-2004 10:15:21 (#6068)

""I can confess to cheating the casinos out of money, actually breaking the rules, but it is up to the dealer and PB to catch me doing it, like it is up to a cop to catch a Z3 when all you can see is two red dots disappearing in the $100 lane. The pit can turn a blind eye, or go postal on you.""

I agree it is the casinos responsibility to catch you. This is dangerous it means being arrested. Cheating is illegal. Keeping money from a casino mistake is not cheating. Ethics are as revereman said up to (and I may add:each individual)society.

"" A few $1 tips can make the dif. I tip large when I get a good meal and good service, so a few whites played for the house don't mean squat to me. If ya can't tip a few whites without killing your edge you should stick to warming up the couch watching football. Remember the battle of New Orleans. Let them form ranks and make rules. You breakem and takem down. Find their benedict arnolds and take care of them, and they will do the same for you. The world is full of mercenaries. You have seen the enemy? I'm sucking the juice out of their bones with a bib around my neck.

Hanibal McLectar""

Robbie dear old freind the play you speak of is a Las Vegas vacation. Happy go lucky throwing some cash around playing for comps fun. Tipping is bad for the EV and impossible at a professional level. A one dollar tip when you score 5 or 6 thousand is a joke. I would rather hit em and leave em broke and keep em wondering. I can see them when you win a couple grand in tweny minutes or so and you toss them a couple of silvers. The dealer would be hating your cheap card counting a$$. Just my humble oppinion. LTC : )

Hard Ethics with Soft Ethics
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Jan-2004 11:28:14 (#6073)

I doubt you will get arrested for doing what I do, just like I doubt jay walkers get arrested for walking across LV bullybard without a set of lights in front of them. They are many good reasons beyond the physical realm for tipping which I will touch on. Take a read thru the richest man in babylon and see how he gives 10% away, saves 10%, and lives on the other 80%. Giving away less than 1% of total earned dollars, not the total 1% advantage, to the person that made your winning possible is hardly anything worth worrying about.

Do as you see fit. That is what I do, and why I do it. Thank goodness I don't have to tip at the cybertables....smile The rest of my donations I get a tax reciept for, something to think about at this time of year. Time to top up the RRSP mutal funds and sink the kick back from the gov't into some other investment. ? grin Want to make sure my kids have the option to own businesses when they graduate from highschool, not just work for one.

Rob, U R Funny! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 09-Jan-2004 11:16:45 (#6072)

Re: Rob, U R Funny!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Jan-2004 11:34:48 (#6074)

Life is suposed to be fun, and that is how I live. I am glad you like to share the laughter with me. Life is too short to be glum, chum. I am a freelance writer (with no spell checker) on the side of all my other jobs and know that people like to laugh. You can take a hard lesson in life, teach it to a person while getting them to enjoy learning it. A spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down, in the most delightful way.

Re: Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!
Posted by Learning to count on 09-Jan-2004 09:56:28 (#6067)

""That's true, it hurts the EV. So does the drive out to that infamously named town of Mound House after a long night of gaming. But it makes me feel good. Your money is worthless unless you enjoy it.""

So why do you TIP????????? Buy a house with your winnings and live in it. Why give it back to the Casino???????

""The tipping also will help me from wearing out my welcome at the table. Understand that an experienced dealer will realize you are counting before the pit or surveillance, and being it isn't cheating he can report you or not at his option. Don't make him decide between that spot at his table going to a counter who definitely doesn't tip and a ploppy who probably will tip. He cares about his EV too. All the experts I've read say that you cannot hide forever, but you can get them to tolerate you.""

With all due respect but I usually wear out my welcome because I kick the casinos a$$. They dont want winners. All the pros I play with dont tip. They are making cash money. Most of the time when you are playing at a winning level you cant play long any way. You make money and have to leave or the suits will appear out of thin air like a bad sci fi movie. You must play under the radar at red level. Tipping at this level is mental masturbation. You not playing even close to a winning game. IMHO

Re: Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-Jan-2004 10:48:42 (#6069)

"So why do you TIP????????? Buy a house with your winnings and live in it. Why give it back to the Casino???????"

If that's the case, why tip the waitress in the restaurant either? Dealers work for tips. Where I usually play the dealers all share tips, but still, they like to see tips. Plenty of times I have accidentally given an obvious wrong hand signal and the dealer waited for the right one. They don't have to do that, and I don't have to tip. Every time they do this for me on a big bet they pay me back ten gaming sessions worth of tips. And I screw up more than once every 10 gaming sessions.

"With all due respect but I usually wear out my welcome because I kick the casinos a$$. They dont want winners. All the pros I play with dont tip. They are making cash money. Most of the time when you are playing at a winning level you cant play long any way. You make money and have to leave or the suits will appear out of thin air like a bad sci fi movie. You must play under the radar at red level. Tipping at this level is mental masturbation. You not playing even close to a winning game. IMHO"

Red level? Who's playing there? I'm usually at a green or blue table. If I can't drop some silver and a smile on a nice dealer who catches my mistakes, speeds up when I ask to speed up (getting more hands per hour is alone worth the tokes), and keeps rude ploppies out of my hair, well then I'm being penny wise and pound foolish. Different parts of the country are different, I realize that, but here in the Northeast apparently you can spread green until your fingers turn green and no one will care, unless you piss somebody off.

Re: Ethics in Gambling 101: READ THIS!!!!!!!
Posted by Learning to count on 09-Jan-2004 14:39:10 (#6075)

""If that's the case, why tip the waitress in the restaurant either?""

Ugh a restuarant is different.

""Dealers work for tips. Where I usually play the dealers all share tips, but still, they like to see tips. Plenty of times I have accidentally given an obvious wrong hand signal and the dealer waited for the right one. They don't have to do that, and I don't have to tip. Every time they do this for me on a big bet they pay me back ten gaming sessions worth of tips. And I screw up more than once every 10 gaming sessions.""

Wow with that many mistakes you should play at red. Your EV has to be eaten up.

"Red level? Who's playing there? I'm usually at a green or blue table.""

Like I said why risk so much with so many mistakes and tips.

""If I can't drop some silver and a smile on a nice dealer who catches my mistakes, speeds up when I ask to speed up (getting more hands per hour is alone worth the tokes), and keeps rude ploppies out of my hair, well then I'm being penny wise and pound foolish. Different parts of the country are different, I realize that, but here in the Northeast apparently you can spread green until your fingers turn green and no one will care, unless you piss somebody off.""

Hey have at it if it makes you happy! :)LTC

The toking thing, again
Posted by Victoria on 10-Jan-2004 13:00:15 (#6087)

Ok, so the vast majority of pros do not tip. I would guess though that the vast majority of members on this board are not really pros but advantage players with other full time jobs and do not have the hours to become pros nor the time to travel the world looking for fresh places they have not been thrown out of lately. Basically, we have different situations.
For myself, because of work and family, I am lucky to get 250 hours of BJ per year. When I go to Vegas (2-3 times per year) I will play at several places and will play with the pro mindset of not worrying about longevity except at one place where I am comped very well. So for me and perhaps many others here, it is important to not wear out my welcome in this place and yes I probably do throw out 6-8 pieces of silver in an hour of a winning session. Like a good ploppy I throw a toke out there after winning a big hand and have another big bet out there. I do not need the dealer pissed and perhaps saying something to the pit about watching me. I have spread $25-$250 in this place for 5 years, generally surrounded by black chip players and have never received any serious heat. I am sure the small amount that I toke is not the reason but the few bucks during a winning session (please no EV responses) are in my mind, some help in longevity.
My guess is that for most members, if you have a place you want to continue returning too, and just took 5 or 6 thousand away from them, you would want the dealer to not hate you for winning.
Now I do not toke if loosing, do not toke to tip hustlers and do not toke again to dealers who do not say thank you.

Burn me at the cross as a heratic

Re: The toking thing, again
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Jan-2004 17:07:25 (#6098)

Victoria,

As I have stated before if a person wants to toke have at it. Bottom line is that toking is negative for the EV. It is not professional play. Toking when you when will affect your future play. When you toke and lose your losses will be higher. This is a unecessary negative EV loss. You cannot predict if you will win or lose. You have to play and go with the deviation flow. In time you will win at the percentage win of your bank roll. You toke today because you won. Well tommorrow you will lose 5K and you can add the $100 bucks you toked the day before to your losses today. Thinking that you will be welcomed back after winning 5K the week before because you tipped the dealer a c-note is SILLY PLOPPY NONSENSE! A winner is not tolerated at casinos. IMHO LTC

Re: The toking thing, again
Posted by Victoria on 10-Jan-2004 19:09:47 (#6101)

LTC
No arguement that it is neg EV. I do not think my tokes would be the only reason I can return and importantly I do return, just a minor contributing factor. I also know I never toked $100 per day and do not claim to be a pro.
On the other hand, have won over 10 grand on a four day vegas trip at this one place, had no heat and returned four months later without a problem. Just a nice comped stay. It has made me wonder why I seemed to be blessed with tolerance there and I have a few reasons why that I must keep to myself. (Don't ruin a good thing.)

I think that many of us are limited in travel time and hours to play, and loosing some EV in tokes, being friendly with critters, and just not being all business all the time, might gain us some longevity.
It is not very different than some AP's who put in a little time at a casino playing neg EV games as cover in places where they plan to return.

Re: The toking thing, again
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Jan-2004 21:18:53 (#6107)

""On the other hand, have won over 10 grand on a four day vegas trip at this one place, had no heat and returned four months later without a problem. Just a nice comped stay. It has made me wonder why I seemed to be blessed with tolerance there and I have a few reasons why that I must keep to myself. (Don't ruin a good thing.)""

You would fit in nice on our team. Ten grand is not ploppy play or wanna be card counter. Ce le guerre

Re: The toking thing, again
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Jan-2004 11:46:56 (#6117)

The most valuable EV related thing I get for tokes is some control over the speed of play. A dealer can deal as fast or slow as he or she feels comfortable, and if I tell them I'm geeting sleepy and making mistakes, could they deal just a little faster, they usually do. Toke 10% of your EV and get 20% more hands per hour, I call that a bargain! Now don't toke, and ask the dealer to speed up a little, and watch what he does.

Just the statement made here "Pros don't toke" is good enough reason to toke. If they are evaluating your play there is no way you can hide being a counter. But they do not have the resources to evaluate everyone's play, just those they suspect might be pros. Buy a clue: don't make yourself a suspect. If it was generally believed "Pros never wear a green shirt", would you ever play in anything but a green shirt? One rule of ALL undercover work is that you do or appear to do what everyone else is doing, the best you can.

Re: The toking thing, again
Posted by Learning to count on 12-Jan-2004 08:45:58 (#6129)

Pro's dont toke....The reason is that they guard thier EV and they dont stay at a table more than an hour. Long term quality play is suspect by many pit critters. Many who Wong dont bother as well because they are in and out and off to other tables. I have played hours and hours and have been welcomed back with out toking. As I said to victoria have at it if you are happy. Toking and the reaons for it don't compute as far as serious play goes. I guess a perosnal reason That I have is that the dealers are merely trained machines who work for the casino. They will have you axed as fast as they can when they suspect Card Counting. They are not your friend. Oh yeah when I say pro's I mean players who earn thier living by playing professional blackjack. They have a lot to worry about. The tourist who counts is in it for the fun and the ego trip of beating the casino. SO have at it tip to your hearts content. Great thread; on to a higher count!

Re: I pulled...
Posted by Learning to count on 08-Jan-2004 08:53:06 (#6046)

Eliot I am proud of you for such a move! Dont grab the money next time you crossed the line by doing so. I have done the same thing with a dealer who could not figure out that five red cheques equalled a green one! just leave the bet out or the next hand in accordance to the count of course. I'm laughing that you feel bad, come on amigo, I know you better than that. Take no prisoners!

Re: I pulled...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jan-2004 14:33:15 (#6037)

Yeah I've thought about the quadruple down myself. Probably not worth it though, too obvious to the cameras.

Sometimes with a sloppy dealer I can get a dealer to flash the next card with well-timed and ambiguous hand signals. The shops where I play tend to resolve even the smallest dispute in favor of the player so I've been able to force a dealer error and get a free play every other trip or so. This is not cheating though, any more than hole-carding is cheating. The sign in the poker room clearly states that all players are responsible for protecting their own hand, and the dealer is a player in blackjack. Unless of course you use a device to help you holecard, that is illegal.

Re: Dealing with a cheat
Posted by Victoria on 07-Jan-2004 12:23:57 (#6035)

This did not happen to me but to my uncle back around 1981 or so at the Sahara.
He sat down at a table, next to first base and quickly discovered that the dealer was flashing the next card to first base. He used that knowledge for a short period of time and quickly thought about the situation and ran away. It was obvious that the dealer and first base were together and he had no desire to be connected or arrested with them.

Re: Dealing with a cheat
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Jan-2004 22:24:06 (#6025)

Depends on the situation. I was at a table where they were breaking in a new dealer that was flashing his HC. If I think about some of the things I have seen and done after the fact it gets you wondering about yourself. I guess it depends on who is cheating. I can't quote the source now, but it is written that a man should not enter into a quarrel that is not his. There are wisdom in those words.

Run away
Posted by LVBear584 on 06-Jan-2004 23:34:42 (#6026)

My first instinct would be to just get up and leave.

Trust your instinct. Any advantage you could gain is more than offset by the potential hassles of "guilt by association." Don't expect the casino or gaming agents to be honorable. You can easily get swept up in someone else's problems. There are plenty of profitable situations out there. You don't need to get involved in a situation with this much risk.

A few random questions
Posted by Dschddny on 08-Jan-2004 08:06:22 (#6042)

If you can please give me your thoughts on any of the following, I'd appreciate it:

1) What do you think is the worst double-down play dictated by Basic Strategy (e.g. A,7 vs 3)?

2) Which of the following do you think are good covers for a counter:

a) Speaking your plays (e.g. saying "Hit") instead of using hand signals

b) Attempting to hand your money directly to the dealer rather than placing it on the table when requesting chips

c) Doubling-down for less (e.g. with a $25 bet, double-down for $20)

d) When playing 2 spots, bet different amounts on each

3) Is it preferable to dress better or worse? (I don't mean wearing a tuxedo vs wearing a tank-top and shorts, but more like wearing a shirt that you'd wear to the office vs wearing a T-shirt more appropriate for shopping at Home Depot.)

4) Does playing 2 spots (without halving your bet) double your risk-of-ruin?

Thanks!

Re: A few random questions
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 08-Jan-2004 08:46:15 (#6044)

1) What do you think is the worst double-down play dictated by Basic Strategy (e.g. A,7 vs 3)?

A,2 vs 5 is probably the lowest EV basic strategy double down.

2) Which of the following do you think are good covers for a counter:

a) Speaking your plays (e.g. saying "Hit") instead of using hand signals

The dealer will correct you immediately. Could be worth a 'newbie' impression.

b) Attempting to hand your money directly to the dealer rather than placing it on the table when requesting chips

The dealer will correct you immediately. Could be worth a 'newbie' impression.

c) Doubling-down for less (e.g. with a $25 bet, double-down for $20)

This costs you EV, unlike the above two which are free. Not recomended. Of course, if you do everything else perfectly, play perfect basic strategy, than the above never-played-before moves don't look right.

d) When playing 2 spots, bet different amounts on each

I don't think any one would care, one way or the other, or could have the opposite effect, since this would be a move you would do depth-charging, sequencing, or card steering.

I think a book is judged by its cover. The better you dress, the better you will be treated and comped.

4) Does playing 2 spots (without halving your bet) double your risk-of-ruin?

I think it quadruples it? The Mayor could probably chime in with the co-variance/variance skinny.

Re: A few random questions
Posted by TITO on 09-Jan-2004 03:23:46 (#6058)

Regarding un-equal bets, have considered staking e.g. $25 on first box and $100 on second box, firstly if your max bet is $100 on one box then the 2 bets together would not increase RoR ( equal to increasing by 1.4 x max bet ).That said an advantage for cover may be achieved by hesitating decision on first hand to give the impression you are affecting card in flow to second hand (gamblers often play this way,you could of course,reverse the bets on last 2 boxes to appear to affect the dealers draw cards).Additionally during high counts you could repeat the bet after a win and double the stake after a loss.Would appreciate input and ideas. Thanks to mathprof for archived calculations and 4:1 ratio of bets.regards TITO

Re: A few random questions
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-Jan-2004 05:12:18 (#6059)

"1) What do you think is the worst double-down play dictated by Basic Strategy (e.g. A,7 vs 3)? "

I could look it up, but double 11 against D10 always feels awful.

"2) Which of the following do you think are good covers for a counter:

a) Speaking your plays (e.g. saying "Hit") instead of using hand signals

b) Attempting to hand your money directly to the dealer rather than placing it on the table when requesting chips

c) Doubling-down for less (e.g. with a $25 bet, double-down for $20)

d) When playing 2 spots, bet different amounts on each"

Probably d) as it betrays an interest in luck and superstition. Maybe you could vary which hand gets the heavy bet based on which hand did better last time. See there needs to be something that you do all night under the cameras to throw them off, but no matter what you do if you are betting effectively as a counter they will eventually notice. You want to not fit the profile of a counter so they don't single your play out for evaluation right away. Drinking, smoking, talking, cursing, trying to get laid might work better than a) through c) but work those things in slowly (unless of course you do them naturally) so they don't distract you.

"3) Is it preferable to dress better or worse? (I don't mean wearing a tuxedo vs wearing a tank-top and shorts, but more like wearing a shirt that you'd wear to the office vs wearing a T-shirt more appropriate for shopping at Home Depot.)"

Dress to impress. The richer you look, the less suspicion throwing around big bets will draw. And if you look really low class they might worry that you could be a common thief, some kind of street criminal and you will be watched nonstop until you leave.

"4) Does playing 2 spots (without halving your bet) double your risk-of-ruin?"

No, playing one unit on each of two spots gives you a lower RofR than playing two units on one spot. But a higher RofR than playing one unit on one spot, assuming a constant bankroll of course. Just think of it as like you and me playing together at the same table. The chance of us both going bankrupt is much lower than the chance of just one of us doing it. We are however sharing the variable of the dealer. If we were both playing at the same time at different tables, the chance of us both going bankrupt is lower still. Playing multiple hands is a useful technique. Good questions.

Re: A few random questions
Posted by feep on 09-Jan-2004 09:48:54 (#6065)

> 1) What do you think is the worst double-down play dictated by Basic Strategy (e.g. A,7 vs 3)?

Well I know this can be looked up, so I'll do the guess. I agree it is probably 11v10. God I HATE doing that.

> 2) Which of the following do you think are good covers for a counter:
>
> a) Speaking your plays (e.g. saying "Hit") instead of using hand signals

No. Once you have speant long enough at the table you will not be able to make this look natural. You will unconsciously be a part of the scene and doing something incongruous will make you stand out.

> b) Attempting to hand your money directly to the dealer rather than placing > it on the table when requesting chips

See above.

> c) Doubling-down for less (e.g. with a $25 bet, double-down for $20)

I always like this one. I might do it when things DON'T call for doubling but I'm probably only going to take one more card anyways (A,2 vs 3 or 4 for example). It would be very interesting to see what this costs me.

> d) When playing 2 spots, bet different amounts on each

This is a good one too. Make sure to spend a few seconds pondering the "lucky" spot. Make sure to switch money from spot to spot! Make sure to complain bitterly when the min bet gets a BJ and the max get a 12!

> 3) Is it preferable to dress better or worse? (I don't mean wearing a tuxedo > vs wearing a tank-top and shorts, but more like wearing a shirt that you'd > > wear to the office vs wearing a T-shirt more appropriate for shopping at Home Depot.)

Fit into your location. Fit into the higher, but not highest end of your location. Learn to be comfy in the clothes you're wearing, regardless of what they are. Learn to act like someone who would be wearing those clothes.

> 4) Does playing 2 spots (without halving your bet) double your risk-of-ruin?

I think it quadruples it on one hand, but then the separate hands drop it to maybe 3x higher? Need a math guy.

Feep

Casey
Posted by Jane moore on 09-Jan-2004 05:29:41 (#6060)

Well, I'm considering a Casey. Should I bother?

And Finigan
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Jan-2004 08:23:36 (#6063)

No. Use your head to beat them. They bar you for using your head, just imagine what they will do to you with wires all over your body and a battery on you. Someone may think you are wearing a dirty bomb, or pretend that is what you were doing and send you to Cuba for a looooooooooooong visit to GitMo. They have excellent security for catching you. They can actually see through your clothes. Talk to Celini. Soon they will be checking your right brain waves to see if you are thinking or dreaming with the left lobe.

Best Seat at the Table
Posted by Dschddny on 09-Jan-2004 08:08:52 (#6061)

If you are wonging in and out, but staying seated at the table (i.e. sitting out negative hands), which do you think is the best seat (to avoid a ploppy lynching)? 1st base, 3rd base, or in the middle?

Thanks!

Re: Best Seat at the Table
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Jan-2004 10:50:56 (#6070)

Middle because you will have access to two spots, one on your left, the other on your right, and can spread to three if you can. You could put your chair in the way of the last spot of the table, that helps sometimes. Forget about the ploppies. They are free entertainment.

Re: Best Seat at the Table
Posted by Victoria on 10-Jan-2004 12:37:54 (#6085)

The middle is the best as Rob said for spreading but I have found that I prefer first base at the local Indian casino because of shoe position. Often they will bust the player at first base and if you are at third base it is impossible to see the bust card.
New counters should not play from the middle if they tend to have to turn their heads first towards first and then towards third watching each card. The corners make this easier.

Re: Best Seat at the Table
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Jan-2004 14:44:07 (#6088)

I also like to sit at first for this reason. You have to count fast for your play decision, not so much siting at third which allows you some time as you get to count the hit cards as the dealer comes towards you.

The best seat in the house is one at a pos EV table....

Better yet, Donald Trumps seat in the PH.

LAST POSITION !
Posted by Imaya on 12-Jan-2004 15:36:46 (#6138)

Well I don't really understand here...maybe I'm missing something but there is one answer possible. Sit in the middle if you have problems seeing all the cards but in all other cases, last seat ! More cards are dealt, more accurate you are so last seat is always better. Not a big difference but I take everything I can.

Re: LAST POSITION !- yes and no
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Jan-2004 18:59:45 (#6148)

Well... no. I take 3rd base out of habit and because it is easier for me to count that way. After the first two cards are dealt I can count the whole table in about a second so there is no noticeable interruption in my friendly chat with the PC.

It is however NOT the most accurate. The effectiveness of the count is related mostly to two things: 1. The likelihood of blackjacks appearing on the table, this is most significant with ace-counting counts like High-Low or if you use an ace sidecount and... 2. The ratio of high cards in the deck, making it easier for the dealer to break.

Now you place your bet before any cards are dealt. Assume 6 players, there are going to be at least 14 cards dealt before you get to make any play decision and most importantly, before the dealer has to draw any cards. Just peel the top 14 cards off the shoe, shuffle them up any way you want, your odds are not going to change whether you get the first two or the last two, and either are the dealer's. The hell of it is, let's say TC=+5, you put out a huge bet, the hand is dealt, everyone stays, you didn't get a BJ, and by the time the dealer is playing the count is now down to TC=+1 and you wish you didn't have so much money out. Note that none of this has anything to do with your position at the table. Now for your playing decisions, you have to adjust the count on the fly as you see cards if you are going to be playing an index, but being the cards are coming out kind of slowly during the draw it's a bit easier.

Your accuracy will be enhanced by having a lower number of players at the table, because fewer cards will be rolled between when you calculate the count and when the dealer plays. Your hands per hour will also be increased so playing at an unpopulated table is always a good bet for a counter.

When I first started playing I always sat at 3rd base and picked a slow dealer, then I realized that these were both (newbie) counter tells and practiced playing with faster dealers and at all positions. Next to 3rd base, 1st base easiest to count at, but with practice now I can work equally well at any position, and I look for fast dealers to speed up my profits.

I dont think it matters...
Posted by SammyBoy on 09-Jan-2004 11:11:51 (#6071)

The Plopsters will be pissed more than likely no matter where you are. Especially if they are losing. I would be more concerned with the pit wondering why you are sitting out certain hands.

Less decks vs Penetration
Posted by Dschddny on 09-Jan-2004 15:15:17 (#6076)

Which game is better?

A) 8 decks with 7 deck penetration

B) 6 decks with 4 deck penetration

Re: Less decks vs Penetration
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Jan-2004 18:58:00 (#6077)

8 with 7 penetration is INFINITELY better.

Re: Less decks vs Penetration
Posted by Victoria on 10-Jan-2004 12:30:25 (#6084)

The Mayor is correct. Just think of it this way. When there is one deck left before the cut card, all those good cards could be in the two of three decks that will not play in the 6D shoe.
In your 8D example, with one deck left to play, all the good cards could also be in the one of two decks that will not play but the chance of that is significantly less than in the 6D example.
Just 87% penetration vs 67%, simple choice except it can be hard getting to that point in 8D without some card eaters (ploppys) earlier in the shoe.

Re: Less decks vs Penetration
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Jan-2004 14:49:47 (#6090)

Depends on where all of the small batches of cards are in the shuffle. Sometimes it is in everyones interest to cut off two instead of just one. That is why I often laugh when they half shoe me and keep shuffling the RnR x2. I often get the cut card passed to me, even when the dealer doesn't give it to me. "He cut the last shoe, give him the card." Ever been sitting there and the cut card should be given to you and the dealer holds it? smile

binion's horseshoe is closed
Posted by gehrig on 10-Jan-2004 00:13:50 (#6078)

what looked to be federal agents closed binion's this evening. only hotel guests with room keys were permitted entry. other patrons were told to cash in their chips and leave the prmises.

sad.

lot of great memories.

Re: binion's horseshoe is closed
Posted by Hal Jordan on 10-Jan-2004 10:02:56 (#6082)

Is this matter of closing something bigger, and stranger, than a Harrah's takeover? Anyone out there have further insights?

Found What I Was Looking For
Posted by Hal Jordan on 10-Jan-2004 10:12:42 (#6083)

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Jan-10-Sat-2004/news/22971159.html

Good riddance
Posted by LVBear584 on 10-Jan-2004 14:57:00 (#6092)

Poor games, rude employees, rampant tip hustling, terrible management, filthy facility. The free parking while downtown is all I'll miss about this dump.

I hate to see it for the sake of downtown, though. A boarded-up building will still be less bad than a Harrah's.

Poor Games?
Posted by Shaggy18vw on 10-Jan-2004 16:08:48 (#6093)

Not for the red to green player. The shoe was a great place for a red/green single deck game where the pit would be preoccupied with higher action.

I'm very sorry to see it go.

Re: Good riddance
Posted by BlackJackHack on 10-Jan-2004 16:41:58 (#6095)

I disagree. The only place in Las Vegas with a single deck game that doesn't sweat green and black action. I also think the playing environment was nice -- an old fashioned card room without all the lights and glitz of the strip. It was a unique property. Too bad it was horribly mismanaged.

I hope that somebody (other than Harrah's) purchases the brand name and facility (whether in a federal auction or from a bankruptcy trustee) and offers similar games. I suspect, however, that Harrah's will wind up buying the brand name since they already own it in the South and Midwest.

"poor games" ?
Posted by gehrig on 10-Jan-2004 16:45:50 (#6097)

conservatively, i've gotten well into 5 figures from that "poor game". i must have been lucky these many years. of course, i'm "lucky" at most of the joints i've been playing, since the early 60's.

better parking is at the golden gate...<20 paces from the car door to the joint's back door. unless you needed the exercise to walk the half block from the 'shoe's drop off, down the escalator (on the mint side), through the pass through and back to the 21 tables. but, exercise is good for a body.

as to cleanliness, no doubt the poster *bear, wouldn't scuff his manicure playing at other "dirty" places...western, golden gate, fremont, las vegas club, 4 queens, and a few others not on fremont street. and he musta missed out on that game at the opera house. i usta rely on that one for years for gas and lunch money, that is until wong emailed the "black chip" members who burned it out. without question, that "dirty" place... was beneath his cleanliness standards. although, as i recall, the hundreds were no dirtier than those i get on the strip(s) at other venues. and that short-lived klondike game.... was that joint too dirty as well ? if you scrounge around, you can usually score a coupon for that anemic pasta dinner, thus saving the $1.99.

no doubt the "nice" joints with the 6:5 snappers and/or dedicated (center monitor) surveillance of the $50 and up games as at belaggio, are "okay". i *do* like the perrier instead of the 'shoe's house label, bottled water. better could be the fresh squeezed o.j. at mandalay.

for some reason, i play the game to filch trump from the checque rack. the "ploppies" play the game because of the cocktail waitresses accoutrement, the class of beverage served, the access to "comps" (maybe a third of the player's anticipated or realized losses), the thickness of the rugs, the gold plating on the loo fixtures, maybe the quality of the barfet.

some of the finest, most financially rewarding games i've played in the last *20* years, were in some tribal joint with wood/vinyl tile floors, maybe in a "modular" structure, with break-in pit stiffs. prior to that, from the early 60's or so, lv strip joints had excellent games. of the more recent games...one joint as i recall, in northern wisconsin was amusing. players would pile their coats and jackets on the floor in the pit. one had to count the dealer's hand as well as the "other" counts. once, a dealer dealt right through a soft 20, and finally busted. even after i showed the error to the 'stiff, he said.."the dealer has to hit soft 17". apparently he thought that included soft hands *over* 17 as well. since it was the first week of operation, they had never seen a card counter and were unconcerned with 1-50 bet spreads. now that i think about, that place was "dirty" also. another such a tribal joint had a dirt parking lot with a 2X12 plank as the "porte couchere". another had an interesting, 15' scorch mark in the rug, inward from the door to the parking lot. a disgruntled employee had tossed in a molotov cocktail. that scorch mark was there for a couple of weeks (or, should i say, for about $600 profit).

give me the joints with sticky mali cloth, sticky checques, brand x beverages, senior citizen beverage servers, but with a game i'm smart enough to beat. the glitz is for the chumps who support this town. i only wish that there were more of them.

Oh, no, not my manicure!
Posted by LVBear584 on 10-Jan-2004 21:58:20 (#6110)

as to cleanliness, no doubt the poster *bear, wouldn't scuff his manicure playing at other "dirty" places...western, golden gate, fremont, las vegas club, 4 queens, and a few others

Unfortunately, the games at the places you mentioned are no longer available to me. Long ago, even though I then played for somewhat lower stakes, I wore out my welcome at the Western, Four Queens, and two more downtown single deck dumps you didn't mention.

Golden Gate is not playable, since a single green chip is loudly called "green action" and then the pref shuffling begins. Fremont sometimes has one worthwhile game left. LVC has been extremely sweaty lately.

I like downtown. I just dislike the Horseshoe. With all the business they had, it is hard to imagine they couldn't afford to hire one additional janitor, or somehow motivate one of their many "standing around, doing nothing" employees to actually do some work.

Abandoned junk cars would sit in the parking garage for months at a time. The garage elevator looked like it was NEVER cleaned. The trash cans were always overflowing. Rest rooms were worse than at a rural gas station.

The awful penetration typical of their single deck games was a joke. Stupid, stupid, stupid. With all the drunken ploppies they regularly had, they could deal reasonable games, and make so much more per hour than they would ever lose to skilled players. But they wouldn't do it.

I have no doubt that they dealt the fewest hands per hour of any casino in Nevada, with the bad pen on single deck games, and the old, slow, grouchy dealers who made it clear they hate their jobs (in between whining for tokes) and hate every customer. Or the sneering floor people in their cheap suits probably scavenged from a dumpster. When the book How to Mismanage a Casino is written, the Horseshoe will be "Exhibit A."

Their inability to pay their bills was either the result of incredibly inept management with a bloated payroll, and/or the amount of internal theft was beyond comprehension.

those who have repeatedly been ejected are oafs....
Posted by gehrig on 11-Jan-2004 17:06:20 (#6118)

plain and simple. my first and only 86 was >10 years ago. it required 3 minutes for me to learn that beyond some puerile gratification of being "so good" et cetera... that i was on the sidewalk and the checque tray was inside.

otoh, i heartily support those who are so poorly skilled so as to be ejected. they place themselves in the same rank as the "ploppies" in that truly skilled players need them both.

skilled players need hunch (etc) players to support the game. and at least i, need the wannabes who are so weak so as to get 86'd. were it not for the ejectees, no doubt surveillance would be admonished for not "protecting the corporate assets"... their designated task. one should then expect the joint to ratchet up the sweat.

at the aforementioned horseshoe, mebbe 10 years back.... two pitstiffs stood next to me, less than 3 feet away, peeking around a column, eyeballing another table, commenting on the bet variations of some chump on the other side of the pit. that punter apparently got the tap on the shoulder, though i didn't appear to pay any attention.

i recall another session, 20 minutes after the grand opening at the venetian. i joined one of the 3 dd games (2 in the main pit, one in the "salon"). the only player at that/"my" $50 game was being hawked by 3 pitstiffs in a huddle, and later, 2 more what i might call "spotters" in back of him in the aisle. it took me most of 2-3 minutes to spot the chump as a counter. on his 2nd "jump shift" (to borrow a phrase from another game), id est, from $50/one hand to $100 each on 2 hands, he was 86'd. two things.. i didn't know what his buy-in was since he was seated when i joined the table (i had to wade through the 10k "guests" piled up at the front entrance). could be that he was ahead, but i doubt it. his "record" was that most likely he ate the fastest 86 in history... 25 minutes from the opening bell. better, i ground away, winding up +$125 and a buffet comp to be used later in the day (the joint opened, finally, @ 20 minutes to 1:00am), at the short lived, very high end, buffet, held in a banquet room. the only thing open so far, as the 'stiff apologized, was a coffee stand and a glass case of sticky buns. that barfet was the first time i saw a whole turkey being carved in an lv barfet. the piano and opera singer on the raised platform in the center of the spread was worthy.

thus i heartily thank both classes of punters... those who blow their money on the table, and better, those who are so weak so as to be tagged out.

thank you, one and all, as the shoe might fit. without some mix of both, i couldn't have continually milked the herd these many years.

mad men were spreading at Binions
Posted by eyes for 21 on 11-Jan-2004 18:17:58 (#6119)

I saw some serious counters a while back...spreading huge..
wow,,smart dudes before the closings...

Re: those who have repeatedly been ejected are oafs....
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Jan-2004 18:40:48 (#6120)

On the other hand, some experts have said that if you never get ejected, you're probably not spreading aggressively enough.

Let's compare it to a concept from that wonderful game that gave us "jump shift": doubling. I once bragged to a big time Life Master that 90% of my doubles hold up. He told me "Then you're not doubling enough." Not that I'm a defensive wizard. And he was right, if that many doubles hold up statistically I must be missing too many doubling opportunities.

As my stakes go up and my experience increases, I can't wait for the day that I occasionally get thrown out of a casino. It equates to success. Now getting thrown out all the time, that's a different story. Here's a question for the experts: if you are at the top of your game and spreading with very high efficiency, about how often can you expect to be thrown out of a store?

Re: those who have repeatedly been ejected are oafs....
Posted by revereman on 11-Jan-2004 20:03:08 (#6122)

Believe me, you do not want look forward to the first time you are 86'd, or even half-shoed. On one hand, it's pretty cool if a big, bad casino is afraid of you, but it does limit your future opportunities, esp. if you are in a casino that is owned by a conglomerate and that shares information. Most experienced counters will tell you that they can spot a counter in a few minutes, by watching their bet spread, proper use of insurance, and things they may say or do. I guess the really, really good pros you couldn't catch but they still have to vary their bets. (I know--flat bettor signals big bettor who comes in at big positive counts and flat bets). To answer your question, though, well, there really is no answer. There were several casinos where I played unscathed for years, had a hot shoe, and was immediately (next shoe) half-shoed. Did they maybe suspect beforehand and didn't care? Who knows?
Even if the casino is pleasant about their actions, it's still nothing to look forward to, except for the very short-term ego boost.

the inherent difference is....
Posted by gehrig on 11-Jan-2004 21:05:28 (#6125)

that in bridge, unless you are cheating, you cannot be 86'd from playing the game, anywhere/everywhere.

brings to mind, that in the early 60's, i usta play for a tenth or two/point, in college. a couple of guys in the group later became notable for cheating in a national tournament. as i recall, it was determined that they would hold their cards in such a manner that their fingers would indicate major holdings. the problem with that "convention" is that only those two guys knew it.

as to 21, being ejected is no better than losing. if fangio continually crashed while pushing the envelope, he wouldn't be remembered as a great driver. he might have lost his sponsors entirely. might have been self 86'd from racing.

just like busting a hand, "you gotta be in to win".

the issue of aggressive play might relate to the tortoise/hare tale. those who merely visit casinos a couple times a year can pray that they enjoy short term wins and that the pitstiffs won't remember them the next time. locals who ply the joints constantly, the tortoises, much like the mosquito, have to repeatedly visit the host. thus a local's "act" must be superior. my money's on the tortoise.

as to the stiff's/casino database-memory... in the early 60's, in the days of $300 trip bankrolls/$1/silver coin/single deck/"strip rules", i filled out a check cashing card at a then, thick rug joint. over 30 years later, i asked for a coffee shop line pass at the same joint, giving my legit name. the 'stiff came back in 5 minutes (with a *comp* !) while saying, "we haven't seen you in a while".

again, the weekend warriors are fine fodder for the surveillance staff. i prefer to play.

Request
Posted by The Mayor on 11-Jan-2004 18:48:01 (#6121)

Somehow I think your language is a familiar mix of those who have come before you.

Mr. Gehrig, do you mind telling us all the under handles under which you have posted, both on this and other boards?

Thanks,

--Mayor

only one on 21 boards.
Posted by gehrig on 11-Jan-2004 20:39:21 (#6124)

on various boards in other languages, i have used other names, merely so as to be understood in those cultures. (viz. chinese, where "gehrig" makes zero sense)

i did have to change one name on a las vegas review journal message board; had to "re-enlist", because after a motherboard crash, i lost my password. but that went from "gehrig" to "gehrigagain". the system wouldn't let me re-register because "the name had already been taken"

if you find an objection to one calling the cards as one sees them, then i'd question the validity of *any* posts. to wit, i continue to equate those who waste their funds using ineffective "systems" with those who have learned adequate, rote skills but who have by their own hand, been prohibited from exercising those skills.

what's the difference ? player "a" is out of funds; player "b" is on the outside, looking in. neither has succeeded at the game.

of course, another method of attacking the game, that is to filch money from the game, is to ply the wannabes, rather than the checque racks. thus one should equate those with "approved" systems with those who peddle folderol. each purveyor does not actually play for casino cash, but each works the crowd. oddly, due to skill in advertising, hype, seminars, "merchandising", whatever, those with the defective systems seem to outscore those with valid methods (!). if one's aim were to earn a living from the 21 game, is there any intrinsic difference between the likes of a patrick, and for example, humble ? i've suggested on other pages that the rankings (financial) of those who work the 21 game, might be headed by a beverage server, juiced into a high minimum 21 pit. some of those young ladies have been reputed to score several hundred thousand a year. once, schlesinger stated that he made little money from authorship of his several books. thorp apparently earns far more money within academia and investment strategies than at 21. and even a 21 dealer at a thick rug joint, making a few hundred bucks a day, day in and day out, in tokes, likely outscores 99% of the counters.

anyway, the issue is that if the horseshoe's "poor" games are closed, and if the cheapie gaughan joints are "modernized", tweaked, "tightened up" (to use a dark side phrase), then the 21 game will be even more challenging.

these are the good old days.

Re: only one on 21 boards.
Posted by John Lewis on 14-Jan-2004 00:41:00 (#6181)

"on various boards in other languages, i have used other names, merely so as to be understood in those cultures. (viz. chinese, where "gehrig" makes zero sense)" -- gehrig

I see you are familiar with chinese blackjack? -- John

huh ?
Posted by gehrig on 14-Jan-2004 10:22:58 (#6186)

in china i saw lots of illegal gambling. it seems that the asians have some innate need to gamble. walking the back streets of beijing for example, you'll always find some card games. the "table" a cloth on the dirt and a half dozen lads on their haunches. at some shop, i did buy a dozen or so decks of chinese playing cards though i haven't opened them.

what the games are, i don't know. 21 or poker they aren't. next visit, i'll ask. the guys i saw didn't mind being photographed though none of the games i observed had english speaking contestants. a form of dominoes (not pai gow) and chess are popular in the public parks, usually by elderly folks. would that my zhongguohua be adequate to easily converse, but i'm still working on it. the back streets, alleys, and lanes of most large cities are most interesting.

sounds like piui to me! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 11-Jan-2004 21:44:30 (#6126)

ah yes, puiu.....
Posted by gehrig on 11-Jan-2004 23:52:37 (#6127)

a few years back, he and i usta joust on a couple of other boards. at the time, allowing for his "second language" english, he'd make preposterous statements about his roulette methods, for example. of couse, the more i questioned him on specifics, the more he spun (*not* the wheel !).

i've noticed in message board discussions, many posters, when confronted with logical objections to their premises, they first spin away. then, when further questioned, they move to vitriol, all the while avoiding specific points.

when i usta question 110% communist party posters on the mainline chinese message boards, they were quick on the draw. i'd ask for example, how they could admire grandpa mao who had off'd at least 10 million chinese citizens via his food stuffs manipulations. the answer was usually some spin accusing me of being a "capitalist oppressor". then there are the times when i'd question some self-proclaimed, "sovereign citizen" on a right wing board, maybe about why he thought he didn't have to pay taxes while using tax payer funded facilities and services. those questions often spun to "where do you live ?" [this from dudes with a dozen class 3 weapons buried in the bunker under the trailer], or simple suggestions that i was a "commie sympathizer".

if anyone knows where puiu (and his alter egos) are lurking, ask him if *he's* gehrig. seems that the most recent time he surfaced, was last year on dalton's vodou page when began a harangue. fencing with such as puiu et alii adds a bit of salsa to these boards.

Re: ah yes, puiu.....
Posted by Learning to count on 12-Jan-2004 08:49:30 (#6130)

Your writing style is similar to puiu and Alexd30. You are bragging about your ability and success as they do. No problem I'm just nosy. Your post are interesting and do start contoversy. Gets the blood flowing! Have at it!

I'm curious Gehrig...
Posted by okie on 12-Jan-2004 13:33:01 (#6133)

You've been telling us about when you "usta" play "21" in the 1960's. You have told us of several forums that you visited. You have informed us that you've never used a handle other then gehrig or gehrigagain. What is it about "mainline chinese message boards" that were so interesting that you visited those prior to AP boards? I mean, I would think that someone with your experiences, age, knowledge, money making 86 avoiding ability might have stumbled across a "21" site sometime prior to discussing communism and capitalism with the chinese.

a dull lad i'd be indeed...
Posted by gehrig on 12-Jan-2004 15:20:43 (#6136)

if 21 were my only interest.

21 is but one avocation. do not these 21 message board attendees as well have other skills ?

Re: a dull lad i'd be indeed...
Posted by okie on 13-Jan-2004 12:10:31 (#6157)

I am sure most have other interest but an AP would likely make an AP website one of his first visits. You seem like a halfway intelligent individual. I think you named 20 languages that you speak. You spoke of several forums. I would assume you weren't just introduced to the World Wide Web. I just find it strange that you've waited so long to visit an AP forum.

Binions
Posted by John Lewis on 14-Jan-2004 08:17:51 (#6182)

The worst of the problems was the rude table game personel.

Old carpet and sunlight deprivation I can overlook if the people are courteous.

surly staff can be an asset.
Posted by gehrig on 14-Jan-2004 10:33:05 (#6187)

first from the joint's perspective... i think the old adage "dummy up and deal" was born at the horseshoe under benny. i get along with all dealers, even the crass ones with a burr under their saddle. usta be that no matter how great a joke was, one could never get a rise, nay a smile, out of 'shoe dealers. the management felt that any dealer ingratiating themselves to the player would gain tokes from that player's bankroll. further, that when the contestant entered the joint, his bankroll belonged to the joint.

today, i play the dealer (as well as the pitstiff). if you get a dealer p.o.'d, occasionally they'll react with accelerated dealing. like that hurts a counter !

harrah's is the new owner.
Posted by gehrig on 12-Jan-2004 20:42:43 (#6149)

now the question remains if the games will be gelded as at other harrah's properties.

better, if the lunch counter chili pot has been kept on simmer, those rattle snake heads like as not have had time to "set up".

marylanders

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