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Threads 931 to 960

Trip Report - with a little "pay back"
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 19-Feb-2004 00:19:14 (#6709)

Reno trip was fun with my new lady. Did manage to make time to grind out 76 units at the tables. Was also my first time going back to play at a casino after having being barred by them in the past. After the first 15 mins, I was feeling real comfy once again with a new act and new look.

Re: Trip Report - with a little "pay back"
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Feb-2004 05:38:05 (#6713)

Which one was it? I got busted at the Golden Penis last month.

Re: Trip Report - with a little "pay back"
Posted by exyuppie on 19-Feb-2004 16:35:42 (#6726)

How did you get busted by Golden P...? What was your
spread? How long were you playing?
I have been playing there on and off and have been
getting some heat lately.

Re: Trip Report - with a little "pay back"
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Feb-2004 21:53:38 (#6732)

Oh, I was only spreading 1-15 at DD. Tall, older PC with white hair. He was a real gentleman about it, no rough or rude stuff. See I got too tired and stopped talking and started staring at cards. They were cool, they waited for me to get back almost even before the backoff.

Re: Trip Report - with a little "pay back"
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 19-Feb-2004 18:15:33 (#6728)

Not Golden P. Too afraid to say. Sorry. It was one of the majors in Reno. It's been a long time since the original back-off.

Re: Trip Report - with a little "pay back"
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Feb-2004 21:59:46 (#6734)

Ah, must be the AgLeg/ElD. Those are big places, easy to hide in there. Harrah's was the best game of all that I found, if you don't mind playing $25. The Cal-Neva had a SD game worth playing too, spread 1-5 with no incidents. Keep out of the Fitz, that's a gross little place and they sweat everything it seems.

Next time, I'm trying out the South Lake Tahoe places, I hear there are some better games.

South Lake Tahoe...
Posted by Alexander Mundy on 23-Feb-2004 10:15:16 (#6781)

There are only a few playable games in SLT (I only play SD) Ceasar's has 1 SD D10 in high limit pit, and 2 in main pit (Usually $10 min 5-6 rds). Harrah's has 1 or 2 SD in high limit pit - good pen - usually crowded). Harvey's has 1 or 2 SD D10 - usually $25 min - 5 rds - usually crowded. Although every once in a while you may get 7/8 rds heads up (twice in 10 yrs). Is 1 of only 4 local (Reno/Carson City/Tahoe) joints where I haven't been backed off. Horizon has some 6/5 and 2-3 SD D10 3/2. Pen varies. Lakeside anly opens 1 or 2 tables and is usually crowded. Bill's has no SD.
I disagree with your assessment of the Fitz. Usually 7 rds heads up. Dealers keep their own tips, so they are a little more aggresive at tip hustling - tho most know me a don't even try anymore. I've only been backed off there twice so I consider that relatively heat-free.

Re: Trip Report - with a little "pay back"
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Feb-2004 07:07:01 (#6716)

Nice work. Barred? Did they trespass you or just tell you you can't play BJ? How's the missus play coming along?

Re: Trip Report - with a little "pay back"
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 19-Feb-2004 18:11:28 (#6727)

They didn't trespass me. One of their suits came up and backed me off and just said; "Sir, we've decided not to allow you to play BJ anymore, but you're welcomed to play any other ..... bla, bla, bla.

As for the misses, she doesn't know how to play, .... yet. So far, she makes it really difficult to play with her watching. Every time, she whines and she wants me to do things like; 'quit while I'm ahead', ie. 10 units or; 'quit before I loose to much', ie. again about 10 units or I should ; 'listen to her because she has great intuition'. Oh! she's killing my brain! But I do still have some patience only because she's a hottie. :-) As if the game and casino staff isn't enough battle already!

Any suggestions on what to do with a woman with such "great intuition". Need some help please.

Back on Monday.

Stealth

If earplugs won't help, ...
Posted by LVBear584 on 19-Feb-2004 18:44:16 (#6729)

Any suggestions on what to do with a woman with such "great intuition". Need some help please.

... leave her home.

Re: If earplugs won't help, ...
Posted by revereman on 19-Feb-2004 20:24:04 (#6730)

I hope you're kidding. Your advice is usually top notch but we're not all pros. Spouses are a part of life (if you're married). Certainly, having some solo trips is fine. Personally, my wife can't watch once my bet goes over $100, so she usually doesn't watch. She's great about my gambling, will sit in the room or outside (depending on the weather), take a walk (not a hike), go to the pool or spa, play some nickel slots or even 3-card poker (when I'm up). She does like to eat at least 2 meals a day with me but usually nothing fancy. She knows my gambling money is my gambling money so doesn't need a big present if I win. Having a supportive spouse is an important part of gambling and counting. If your play ruins your marriage, it's really not worth it. There's enough of a stigma about gambling (which most people counting too), that you don't need it to affect your personal life too.

Different situation
Posted by LVBear584 on 20-Feb-2004 18:15:10 (#6747)

Revereman wrote:

Having a supportive spouse is an important part of gambling and counting. If your play ruins your marriage, it's really not worth it. There's enough of a stigma about gambling (which most people counting too), that you don't need it to affect your personal life too.

I agree completely. But Mr. Bomber's situation was quite different, from my understanding of his comments.

First, Mr. Bomber said:

Reno trip was fun with my new lady.

This is a long way from a supportive spouse. I took the situation to be a new girlfriend on her first casino trip with Mr. Bomber. She obviously is not supportive of his blackjack play.

In his subsequent post, he said:

Oh! she's killing my brain! But I do still have some patience only because she's a hottie. :-)

This sounds like a good-looking bimbo. <u>Still</u> have <u>some</u> patience ... How long can any intelligent person put up with stupidity? If she's already "killing his brain," is there much hope for a relationship that will survive?

I am not trying to play amateur psychologist, but to me it doesn't sound like putting up with her superstitions and ignorance is +EV in the long run for Mr. Bomber. In the short run, he can "bomb away," so to speak, and probably have a great time. In the long run, she sounds like an anchor, if he doesn't educate her, or she is unable or unwilling to learn. I apologize if I misunderstood the situation. I have little (or no) tolerance of stupidity, even with "hotties." Tolerance deteriorates with age, I guess. Twenty years ago I may have felt differently. :<(

Fair Enough (NT)
Posted by revereman on 20-Feb-2004 19:04:49 (#6749)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Re: bringing females to the casino
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Feb-2004 22:07:53 (#6735)

Well I have a similar situation. My gf is not mathematically inclined and is afraid of gambling. But she loves the casino entertainment. So we just wait until there is a band playing in the free concert area that she wants to see for us to go together, and we each do our separate thing. She gets a kick out of my act too. In real life I'm as plain as a Quaker's barn, but in the casino I'm dressed up like Miami Vice and hooting and hollering and boozing it up like a convicted mafioso on a weekend furlough.

Economics 101
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Feb-2004 07:46:18 (#6736)

My experience with "the better half" has gone like this. Tell her how it works, doesn't really understand. Show her how it works, begins to understand. Show her the money, UNDERSTANDS. Show her my bank accounts, doesn't understand why $$$ isn't in the joint account. ;> There is a point when you just have too much, and the cup does runneth over.

Re: bringing females to the casino
Posted by Victoria on 20-Feb-2004 11:05:31 (#6740)

Automatic: We can bring ourselves to the casino.

Had to take a little shot at your subject line but in reality I have the same problem with my significant other. He does not quite get the math, does not like casinos and generally does not join me and my two trips to Vegas a year. He does understand that I win more often than loose which does make things easier.

He doesn't like casinos?
Posted by LVBear584 on 20-Feb-2004 18:17:01 (#6748)

I don't like casinos either. But I have no problem with taking money from them.
:>)

Best game in AC
Posted by All Clear on 20-Feb-2004 10:21:22 (#6737)

Anyone know the best game curently offered in Atlantic City, NJ? I have heard rumors over past visits that there may be places that offer better than the standard, which is resplit up to 2 times. Any offer 6 decks, Surrender, or anything out of the norm?

Re: Best game in AC
Posted by BlackJackHack on 20-Feb-2004 13:07:00 (#6746)

You can play six deck at all price levels at the Borgata (as low as $5 off peak, usually starting at $10), where there are no 8D games. In off peak hours, you can get $10 min 6D at Hilton and $15 at Sands. You can almost always get $25 6D at Hilton, Sands and Showboat. Everyplace else offers 6D only at the $100 level. The rest of the games in town are 8D.

As far as I know, the playing rules are the same everywhere (S17, DOA, resplit twice, DAS, nRSA).

Re: Best game in AC
Posted by wongout on 20-Feb-2004 19:09:03 (#6750)

Best Game in AC is Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas!

I agree... Hey, All Clear....
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 20-Feb-2004 23:21:42 (#6752)

I don't care if you live in Philadelphia, NYC, or Barstow. You can get to L.V. for cheap. My upcomming trip from Cleveland cost me $216 total. It is far cheaper for me to fly to L.V. than it is to drive to A.C., despite my proximity.

As far as I can figure, there is no reason to ever go to A.C. My personal advice would be to watch the websites of whatever airline has a hub near you. Watch Funjet's website especially. I have flown from Cleveland to L.V.(and I mean roundtrip) for a bit under $200. I have friends who have gotten last minute airfare through same for $125!! (about 1 top bet for me). Rooms in L.V. are much cheaper, and liberally comped.

Maybe some research is in order for you. Look at your potential E.V. vs. Travel expenses. Do some homework and do some math. If you do, you will find yourself on a plane to Vegas!

Good Cards,

-Felix

Re: I agree... Hey, All Clear....
Posted by BlackJackHack on 21-Feb-2004 09:30:27 (#6755)

I generally agree. I live in the DC area (3 1/2 hours from AC), but have played far more in Nevada and Mississippi than I have in AC.

On the other hand....

If you live in Philly, it's a one hour drive to AC ($10 RT in gas and tolls). If you live in the NYC area, it's a 90 minute to 2 hour drive ($15 RT in gas and tolls), and that's door-to-door. This makes a 1 or 2 day trip to AC reasonable. You are not going to take a five hour flight (realistically, 8 hours door-to-door) to LV to play for 2 days.

For a Cleveland resident, like yourself, of course, it would be very hard to justify any travel to AC, since you'd be looking at an 8-10 hour drive or a flight that likely costs just as much as one to LV.

As for comps, I agree that they suck compared to LV, but they are improving since Borgata came into the market. If you're reasonably savvy, you can get a free room on a weeknight at several casinos for playing green -- you might even be able to scam a weekend room if you're persistent.

As for the game itself, I agree that there's nothing like the pitch games you'd find in Nevada and Mississippi. It's very difficult to justify playing all at any AC game (or, for that matter, any shoe game anywhere). For wongers, however, AC offers good conditions -- large, crowded casinos, big bettors everywhere and no heat. You can jump in and out throwing down $200 bets and nobody gives you a second look.

Re: I agree... Hey, All Clear....
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 21-Feb-2004 11:15:38 (#6759)

>>You can jump in and out throwing down $200 bets and nobody gives you a second look.

At what count do you wong in at this level? +3?, +4, +5?

If this is even a top bet for you, it seems then, that it would be healthier for your BR to take a hit on the airfare/hotel for the much better EV and head west.

>>You are not going to take a five hour flight (realistically, 8 hours door-to-door) to LV to play for 2 days.

Then go to LV half as often as you would go to AC and stay twice as long. I have started doing exactly this in the midwest. I don't really play much in the casinos near me anymore. Instead, I go to much better game that is twice as far away. I do weekends instead of daytrips.

Admittedly, Maybe my advice was a bit tainted with personal frustration. I am sick of trying to make an 8 deck game work for me. I might have a hard time playing in AC even if I lived in AC. So if aggressive wonging is acceptable to you, than OK. I believe it is being conscientious not to play a bad game just because it's close.

-Felix

Re: I agree... Hey, All Clear....
Posted by BlackJackHack on 23-Feb-2004 12:50:11 (#6787)

>> At what count do you wong in at this level? +3?, +4, +5?

I wong in at +2 (Uston APC) and bet $50 (and wong out at 0) and go up to 2 x $200 from there. My max bet is reserved that for those monster TCs (e.g. +20) that you get every once in a while playing shoes (maybe once every 10 hours of wonging?).

>> Then go to LV half as often as you would go to AC and stay twice as long. I >> have started doing exactly this in the midwest. I don't really play much in >> the casinos near me anymore. Instead, I go to much better game that is twice >> as far away. I do weekends instead of daytrips.

I agree. As I mentioned at the top of my email, I have played a lot more in MS and NV than in NJ. But - what if I am on the way home from NYC to DC and have 24 hours available to play - should I fly to LV? I just believe that it can be worthwhile for a player (in NYC or Philly, in particular) to go to AC (or CT) for a short trip rather than fly to LV. This boils down to a fairly simple equation. Assuming it takes 16 hours, and $300, to get to LV (RT), and 4 hours and $20 to get to AC (RT), the player should travel to LV if the following is true:

((LV EV per hour) * (T-16)) - 300 > ((AC EV per hour) * T-4) - 20

Whether LV or AC is more worthwhile depends on three variables - T (time available for the trip, excluding sleeping time), and the two respective hourly EVs. The results of this equation will be highly player-specific.

Count Luckula, I don't have your email address. Mine is yourworstnightmare@punkass.com.

Re: I agree... Hey, All Clear....
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 23-Feb-2004 13:47:24 (#6790)

Sure, There are gobs of variables. And, if I were just passing through (T=0), I'm sure I would at least be doing some scouting.

But from the tone of All Clear's post I just assumed he/she did not live near AC (Maybe I am wrong), and a special trip would be in order, in which case Vegas is almost always the best advice.

Also, There was at least a tiny level of exaggeration to the statement. "I don't care if you live in Philadelphia, NYC, or Barstow". Sometimes I forget how poorly exaggeration or sarcasm translates to text. Sorry.

-Felix

Re: I agree... Hey, All Clear....
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Feb-2004 13:08:08 (#6760)

Yes I'm getting ready for a trip to Tunica. I can get a quick flight from Hartford to Nashville and rent a car, a lot less hassle than LV. If you're in the NYC area and want to play shoe you're much better off coming to CT- huge casinos, no heat, large action doesn't stand out plus we have LSR which really protects your big bets.

Re: I agree... Hey, All Clear....
Posted by Count_Luckula on 21-Feb-2004 14:25:46 (#6761)

I have done trips to AC, Gulfport, and LV from DC. I agree that you will find the extra money spent to fly to LV is usually worth it. I also agree if you are going to go for a night or two, it is probably better to drive to AC. The BJ in AC is not very good, but there are other games to play like Poker. You would be amazed at how many suckers are out there. As far a BJ in AC, you can certainly do plenty of wonging during the less busy hours. I found that it is nearly impossible to wong on a Friday/Saturday night during peak hours because every table is full. These are great times to find other AP games. Usually poker is good because many are boozing and are there for pure enjoyment (I enjoy it to, but there is certainly a monetary motivation).

P.S. Blackjackhack, Please email me when you get a chance.

Last BJF
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Feb-2004 10:23:01 (#6738)

Hey gang. Anyone get their copy of the last BJF yet? Comments?

Re: Last BJF
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Feb-2004 11:33:53 (#6742)

A great issue -- EVERY serious BJ player should own a copy (and many not-so-serious as well). They are for sale through www.bj21.com -- mine arrived early this week and I devoured it twice.

--Mayor

Re: Last BJF
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Feb-2004 12:04:16 (#6743)

Nice report. I ordered mine from the publisher:

http://www.greatstuff4gamblers.com/productdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=BJ092

Due to a snafu, I got two.
Posted by Titaniumman on 20-Feb-2004 13:03:27 (#6745)

I had to call Huntington Press a couple of weeks ago on some other business, and I thought my subscription had run out, so I ordered one sent to my work address.

I received one at home and one at work. Good thing, too. I made the "Guilty Parties" list on the back cover. I think the only others on the profile list of this site who made it are Cardkountr and Mr. Pill.

It's one of the best editions ever with a poignant Sermon by Arnold, a great Munchkin interview of Keith & Marty Taft, and an outstanding article co-authored by Grosjean. It's a must have.

I now own the complete collection from the first issue to the last including two sets of the famous shuffle tracking series.

Great job Arnold!

Re: Due to a snafu, I got two.
Posted by Mr Pill on 23-Feb-2004 11:55:13 (#6786)

"I received one at home and one at work. Good thing, too. I made the "Guilty Parties" list on the back cover. I think the only others on the profile list of this site who made it are Cardkountr and Mr. Pill."

What is this "Guilty Parties" list?

I have not received my final issue copy yet but should shortly.

Pill

A Nice Final Touch
Posted by Titaniumman on 23-Feb-2004 13:28:46 (#6789)

At the end of Arnold's touching good-bye sermon, he mentions that a fairly comprehensive list of the contributors over the last 23 years is on the back cover.

The back cover is simply entitled "The Guilty Parties". It then proceeds to list between two and three hundred names.

Congratulations

ZhenGee
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Feb-2004 10:38:18 (#6739)

Any updated on ZhenGee? His last post was in Jan 2003

http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?noframes;read=2684

and he is supposed to be out of circulation for 30 months. 30-13=17, or July 2005. I know he switched to Florida and is hoping to get out early with a drug rehab program and good behavior. Any word? Hope he's out for March Break in FLA for the next Girls Gone WILD!! ;>

Re: ZhenGee
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Feb-2004 11:31:48 (#6741)

A couple more months -- it will be nice to have his voice once again gracing BJ.

There is a small chance that a new interview with him will be published here, the details are a bit up in the air -- I welcome that possibility.

--Mayor

Re: ZhenGee
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Feb-2004 12:11:54 (#6744)

Look forward to reading it. Want to see him in first place again as top poster at CC.com before summer hits.

Faint Praise
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Feb-2004 23:42:26 (#6753)

This site went over 100,000 hits about a week ago. Janet Jackson's site got that in 5 minutes 8-)

--Mayor

Re: Faint Praise
Posted by BlackJackHack on 21-Feb-2004 09:31:39 (#6756)

Maybe you need to expose yourself to increase traffic? Then, again, maybe that wouldn't be such a good idea...

Re: Faint Praise
Posted by CanKen on 22-Feb-2004 13:47:19 (#6770)

You could at least post a picture of your pierced nipple:)!

Link to review of Cellini's Book
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Feb-2004 09:49:35 (#6757)

Follow this link ... our very own Rob McGarvey did the review

http://members.rogers.com/blackjackprofessional/cellini.htm

Anyone who has CVCX help
Posted by John on 22-Feb-2004 07:06:55 (#6764)

I know someone on this site has CVCX. I just got it. The problem is that I can't get it to do a chapter X simulation. It tells me that "Sims were not included with the selected decks and rules" or something like that. Anyone had this message and what am I doing wrong? I want to calculate my optimal bet spread for any given system. I can't even get hi-opt II to work even though it is in the archives. I understand that it takes a few hours maybe even 8 hours to do but my sims are done in like 5 minutes so I know it isn't doing everything.

just got it done
Posted by John on 22-Feb-2004 07:25:03 (#6765)

Ok, I figured it out. Hard to see the results of a 6 deck sim if you selected it to do a sim for double deck.

Got a c-score of 12.45 and a DI of 3.53 . Don't know how good that is but I'm going to find out.

Re: just got it done
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Feb-2004 09:21:10 (#6766)

A DI less than 7 is absolutely horrible. Not worth playing.

What is DI and c-Score?
Posted by John on 22-Feb-2004 10:17:28 (#6767)

Can you elaborate on what a c-score is? I can kind of understand what DI is. They are just ways of analyzing games and systems. Right? I don't have Blackjack Attack and this chapter X stuff is new to me. The DI and C-Score change as I increase and decrease the bet spread.

Also, Mayor. There is this double deck game near me. Well, the only one near me here in Indiana.

2 deck, S17, Double only on Hard 9, 10, and 11
No soft DD, No DAS, Split all hands only once

Maybe 60-65% penetration, though.

Stick to the 6 deck game ?

6 deck, s17, DAS, DOA, split up to 3 times except Aces (once)
65-70% penetration

Re: What is DI and c-Score?
Posted by Cyrano on 22-Feb-2004 15:58:55 (#6771)

I got this from the CVCX Help

� DI - The desirability index developed by Don Schlesinger is a combination of win rate and standard deviation and is designed to rate the desirability of a situation. A higher DI is better.

� C-SCORE - c-SCORE is a term coined by Richard Reid to indicate comparative SCORE and is calculated without the bankroll and risk requirements of Don Schlesinger�s SCORE. It can be used to compare two situations and is calculated by squaring the Desirability Index.

BDTH
Posted by Roy on 22-Feb-2004 11:44:04 (#6769)

I just finished reading "Bringing Down the House" which I found to be quite entertaining. Is the majority of this book actually based on fact or is there some play with the truth? The amount of money they supposedly won is simply staggering. The one part I find hard to believe is the intimidation, threats, and violence that the casinos used against members of the team toward the end of the book. It would seem to me that the risk of lawsuits and bad publicity would make casinos refrain from such behavior.

Also, I would like some opinions as to whether team play using spotters and the BP is even viable in today's casino environment. It would seem that casinos, after this book came out, would be watching carefully to deter such play.

Crimes against patrons by casino employees *LINK*
Posted by LVBear584 on 22-Feb-2004 19:50:51 (#6773)

The one part I find hard to believe is the intimidation, threats, and violence that the casinos used against members of the team toward the end of the book. It would seem to me that the risk of lawsuits and bad publicity would make casinos refrain from such behavior.

Casinos routinely engage in intimidation, threats, and violence against skilled patrons. It is particularly rampant in Nevada, due to the corrupt court system and casino-controlled corruption at all levels of government. It happens elsewhere, too, though not as often. Casinos, particularly in Nevada, are not deterred by lawsuits and bad publicity. Maybe when a jury awards millions to a victim of this type of thing, the casino bosses will take notice. It hasn't happened yet, though there are several pending lawsuits in Clark County. Hopefully, one of the juries will punish the casino criminals with a high enough award so that this behavior will stop.

You may also want to take a look at the DVD, Casino Abuse of Skilled Players, for more insight into the casino employee mentality. (Link below)

Here are a few links to recent news stories about crimes committed by casino employees against law-abiding, honest patrons. None of the casino employees were ever prosecuted for their crimes. There are many, many more such cases. In Nevada, the law enforcement and prosecutorial agencies are so corrupt that there is no chance of the casino employee criminals being prosecuted. The civil courts are the only remedy for the victims of casino crimes in Nevada, and it's tough for the victims/plaintiffs to get a fair hearing there, either.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jul-06-Sun-2003/news/21616613.html

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Sep-05-Fri-2003/business/22070526.html

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Dec-25-Thu-2003/business/22871776.html

Re: BDTH
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 22-Feb-2004 20:02:41 (#6774)

Team play is very possible with the right players. Since playing with MIT has its own stigma, you would expect all players to be str8 shooters. It is an honor to play with the big boys, and you wouldn't want to tarnish yourself by ripping them off, unless you are a rip off master and get greater pride an publicity from that end of your stick. The $ is real, the methods are real, but the writer also has the flair of the pen on his side. If you see the movie The Hot Shoe you will see the MIT is a bunch of geekmiesters or hoods that speak terrible english, say ahh, every second, and can't take their eyes off their stinky running shoes when they talk to the camera. It does make you wonder how the heck it all comes together. I guess it is a good act at the tables. No one would dream that some of these guys could get into University let alone your local high school.

History Versus Hollywood *LINK*
Posted by Kevin Blackwood on 23-Feb-2004 11:00:05 (#6784)

The MIT team definitely existed and have had a very successful run. The number I have heard kicked around is that they won $20 Million over the years.

However, I think BDTH doesn't give a very balanced and realistic portrayal of how teams operate. They rarely mention losing in the book and parts are definitely embellished. Without trying to sound like a shameless promoter, I would recommend my novel THE COUNTER. It offers a more balanced picture of the true ups and downs of high stakes play, as well as the numerous pitfalls that can strike a group of young men surrounded by bags of cash.

I understand the History Channel is planning to do a show in its "History Versus Hollywood" series on the MIT team. I believe that will air in April, although I don't know what slant they will take on the book.

Re: History Versus Hollywood
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-Feb-2004 23:30:02 (#6805)

Sounds like a good book. I had an idea about a counter movie. A counting team much like the MIT team encounters a rhinestone-studded playboy type counter in LV, and the way they interact with each other. You can't make it too realistic because then it would be boring to anyone but counters, and most counters will be too cheap to buy the book or the movie.

Best place to start?
Posted by AudiTT on 22-Feb-2004 21:15:00 (#6775)

I'm an experienced (3yrs) on-line advantage player in the UK, playing blackjack and video-poker exclusively.

I am, however, a complete novice when it comes to counting at B&M casinos. Can anyone recommend suitable literature (and an 'easier' counting system) for a novice?

My local B&M casino offers 6 deck, D9,10,11 only, DAS, dealer stands S17 only.

Thanks in advance.

Audi

(Great site btw)

Re: Best place to start?
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Feb-2004 10:02:16 (#6780)

These are pretty bad rules for 6 deck games. Unless you're getting 90% or better penetration it is probably not a playable game unless you can use a monster spread like 50 to 1. The first rule of card counting is to only play beatable games. I would not play this game.

Re: Best place to start?
Posted by Lone Stranger on 23-Feb-2004 11:09:06 (#6785)

Sounds like the UK to me...... These are the only games available here.

Tiz beatable with 1-12, recoment illustrious 18 (or the bits that apply!) to get edge up though.

There is an excellent BJ counting course (free!) on www.gamemasteronline.com

Re: Best place to start?
Posted by AudiTT on 26-Feb-2004 19:20:21 (#6847)

Thanks guys.

Yep, UK it is. Casino culture over here is in it's infancy IMO. I think things will improve eventually.

I'm relocating to Sydney, Aus, for a year with work in Sep 04, so hope to no longer be a novice counter by then.

Thanks again.

SF 21 Insurance?
Posted by Jay on 23-Feb-2004 01:53:26 (#6776)

I have read the basic & counting strategy articles for Super Fun 21, but I haven't found any that address the insurance bet.

For Example, at what count (I use KO) is insuring a BJ profitable? Since you are guaranteed even money even if the dealer has BJ it would seem to be a positive EV to play insurance to up your bet in any positive count for a 2-1 payoff. Especially with BJ in diamonds. It might even be good in slightly neg counts, but I don't have a simulator to test this theory.

There are indeces for most counting systems for taking insurance on any hand at a certain high count, How about for SF 21?

Thanks for any help you can offer.

Jay

no fun with even money
Posted by eyesfor21 on 23-Feb-2004 17:57:30 (#6795)

few play the super game and few use ko. Even money bjack is
rough,

even 6/5 pays a touch more,as far as insurance goes,
depends on your system.

SF21 insurance index same as single deck blackjack
Posted by LVBear584 on 26-Feb-2004 00:29:05 (#6831)

Whether you have a blackjack or not has nothing to do with the insurance bet, except for the effect on the count.

Where to start?
Posted by AudiTT on 23-Feb-2004 05:01:24 (#6777)

I have 3yrs advantage play experience on-line (blackjack & VP) and am now looking to expand into counting. Can anyone point me in the right direction as to where to start? Good books, 'simpler' systems etc.

Thanks in advance.

Audi.

(Great site btw)

Re: Where to start?
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Feb-2004 09:57:12 (#6779)

I would get Stanford Wong's book Professional Blackjack and learn the Hi-Lo count. Make sure you know basic strategy like the back of your hand. You should know it like you know your multiplication tables. You don't even have to think about it. Once you know it then start learning to count.

Practice flipping through a deck of cards only identifying each card a +1 (cards 2-6) or -1 (10, J, Q, K, A) and ignoring the neutral cards. After you feel comfortable with this move on to actually adding the cards in your head as you flip through the deck. I always take out three cards and put them on the side. After finishing the deck lets say I have a running count of -3, then the 3 cards I removed from the deck had better be 3 low cards or else I screwed up and need to practice more. Once you can count down a deck in less than 30 seconds you are doing pretty well. It's time to add the Illustrious 18. Once that is memorized perfectly, continue to add more indices to your play.

Get a computer program like Casino Verite to practice. Best of luck!

Re: Where to start?
Posted by AudiTT on 26-Feb-2004 19:16:27 (#6846)

Thanks SammyBoy, much appreciated.

(Apologies for the double-post, my PC is playing tricks).

How bad is a fresh shoe?
Posted by Dschddny on 23-Feb-2004 08:18:19 (#6778)

I've read that it isn't good to play at a table that has just opened (i.e. they just opened the cards and did the initial shuffling, for 8 decks in the shoe). My question is, how bad is such a situation exactly, as compared to a shoe which has been used for several hours and thus shuffled much more?

Thanks!

Re: How bad is a fresh shoe?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 23-Feb-2004 10:19:52 (#6782)

I read that it's not completely random until after 6 shuffles, unless they "wash" all the decks on the surface of the table.

Re: How bad is a fresh shoe?
Posted by Learning to count on 23-Feb-2004 13:09:43 (#6788)

If any thing you want to at least to start your count at the beggining of a shoe. You can jump in later when you have the advantage. Whats a random shuffle? The cards are there and you should be taking advantage of positive runs. It is nonsense to discuss clumping and card prediction. Just count the cards and play. If the game is legal then it can be beat. The one thing you should be aware is heat.

Re: How bad is a fresh shoe?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 23-Feb-2004 17:03:55 (#6792)

If any thing, you want to at least to start your count at the begining of a shoe.

Certainly true. However, what if we come strolling by a 6D in progress and happen to see the table full of small cards, decide to run the C and find an RC of 21. There are 3 decks worth of cards in the discard tray. I know we treat it as though it is the top of the shoe in this situation and for counting purposes, we give it a TC of +7. My worry though and question for this situation is:

Am I seeing so many small cards now because the big ones already went
through?

I think it is just pure nonsense to ever have this thought pop up. However, I still need some confirmation of assurance. :-)

Re: How bad is a fresh shoe?
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Feb-2004 17:57:55 (#6796)

>Am I seeing so many small cards now because the big ones already went
through? I think it is just pure nonsense to ever have this thought pop up. However, I still need some confirmation of assurance. :-)

Consider this confirmation of assurance, it is pure nonsense :-)

Re: How bad is a fresh shoe?
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 23-Feb-2004 18:45:18 (#6798)

Unseen cards are UNSEEN CARDS. If you enter in the middle of a shoe all the cards in the discard tray should be treated as being behind the cut card. In essense you are enterinig a shoe with poor penetration but your adjusted TC is still valid.

With regards to new cards, I have also read that the cards do not become truly mixed until after the third shuffle. I don't recall who made that statement so I won't quote anyone, but it was a reputable author. So what. We depend on a non homogenous distribution of cards to apply our strategies.

Re: How bad is a fresh shoe?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 23-Feb-2004 19:34:15 (#6803)

Thanks for the reassurance on that.

How about the original subject though; does it matter whether or not the new 6 deck pack of cards are shuffled well or not?

Re: A better question- average RC at an open seat
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-Feb-2004 23:24:00 (#6804)

This is something I've been wondering about for my Wong-around strategy. When you walk up to a fresh shoe, the RC is always 0 assuming you are playing with a bunch of full decks.

Now if you Wong away from a table and walk up to the first available open seat at another table, what would you expect the average RC to be? First approximation it is also 0. But... average players walk away from a table when the dealer has been catching a lot of hand, and the dealer catching hands means low cards have been being played, which means a higher count than 0. On the other hand, the opening you found may have just been vacated by another counter, and guess why he left. Does anybody have any research/data/ideas on this effect?

Re: A better question- average RC at an open seat
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Feb-2004 09:07:41 (#6807)

>>But... average players walk away from a table when the dealer has been catching a lot of hand, and the dealer catching hands means low cards have been being played, which means a higher count than 0.

I would say this only might mean the other players perception is that the dealer had been catching more hands, whether it be true or not.

However, my guess is that most other players leave the table for other reasons. Like when someone jumps in and out of the shoe and screws up the flow. Or, for any number of similar reasons we all know way too well.

-Felix

Re: A better question- average RC at an open seat
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 24-Feb-2004 09:43:08 (#6809)

But... average players walk away from a table when the dealer has been catching a lot of hand, and the dealer catching hands means low cards have been being played...

I think this may be true to a certain extent if the other tables are generally full. I often ask the D; 'What happened, why is everyone gone? Are you not busting or are you just getting all the aces and faces?'

I never assume the reason the table is empty is because the counters left a negative pack. The chances of it being counters rather than ploppies, is way too slim.

Re: A better question- average RC at an open seat
Posted by Feep on 25-Feb-2004 04:54:23 (#6816)

Keep in mind the dealer will always win more hands. Our advantage is made on the 3:2. Therefore the player's perception is probably not due to dealer winning more hands. Most likely due to:

1) Dealer pulling to 20/21

2) Dealer pulling lots of BJs, and players pulling few.

Now one would be good, and two would be neutral or bad.

Re: How bad is a fresh shoe?
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Feb-2004 10:27:45 (#6783)

I don't know where you heard this, but it is nonsense.

Question authority -- even more so in this business. There are a lot of people who will say something to sound smart, but really don't know much.

Now, if the cards had never been shuffled, let's look at the first hand heads up:

A burned.

you: 2,4
dealer: 3,5

You hit get a 6, another hit, get a 7 for a total of 19.

Then the dealer hits, gets an 8 then a 9 and busts.

So you won the first hand. Retire.

--Mayor

Why Does it Seem...
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Feb-2004 16:50:30 (#6791)

that everytime I double my eleven I get the Ace? I know mathematically it probably does not appear more than it should, but I really "feel" like the eleven is a magnet for the Ace.

Re: Why Does it Seem...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 23-Feb-2004 17:12:38 (#6793)

Funny ..... that NEVER happens to me! I always get a 10! Maybe you just need a different colored rabbits foot. :-))))) lol

Re: Why Does it Seem...
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 23-Feb-2004 18:48:11 (#6799)

...and I get the deuce on the doubled 10 too! Wow I though it was just ME!

Blame the dealer he's the one who shuffled and dealt the cards.

Ace is no worse than 2, 3, 4, or 5 when doubling on 11
Posted by LVBear584 on 23-Feb-2004 18:55:41 (#6800)

It just LOOKS worse, so you remember it more.

remember to buy the last blackjack
Posted by eyesfor21 on 23-Feb-2004 19:10:20 (#6802)

blackforum ever to be made...
unreal good tips,reading and ect.
only 15 bucks

http://www.greatstuff4gamblers.com/productdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=BJ092

Re: Why Does it Seem...
Posted by CanKen on 24-Feb-2004 09:31:08 (#6808)

My most highly magnetized hand is hard 12. It always attracts a ten.

Re: Why Does it Seem...
Posted by Victoria on 24-Feb-2004 11:29:11 (#6810)

All of these things are easily explainable. It is the demonic entity who lives in every shoe in every casino.
Or: It could be payback by the blackjack God's because you as an evil counter destroyed the holy flow of the cards

Because it's true.
Posted by Tom on 25-Feb-2004 00:52:03 (#6814)

Since larger bets are so important, we tend to watch the results very closely while minimum bets recieve little attention because they are insignificant(or less significant). This is NOT your imagination(or mine),you really are getting more aces than usual on a double down of 11 with larger bets.

On the same token,ever notice how many times the dealer often shows a devastaing ace more frequently right after we seem to put out larger bets? It's the same as above and not a voodoo belief.

Anyway,it'something to think about and not let it bother you wondering why that damn ace seems to shows up all the time where you least need it.

Tom

Because it's true during a high C.
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 25-Feb-2004 11:19:50 (#6821)

During my last session, I had a D say to me; "I don't understand why you continue to torture yourself by playing 2 hands sometimes. Every time you do it, I get an ace and you take insurance on bad hands. Don't you know you're messing up the flow of the cards when you do that!? I don't understand why you keep killing yourself like that." I said; "NONSENSE!" We started to get into a debate about it. I felt like she was trying to hard to figure out what I was doing, so I left while down about 20 units.

Stupid dealer comments
Posted by LVBear584 on 25-Feb-2004 11:41:46 (#6822)

Don't you know you're messing up the flow of the cards when you do that!? ... We started to get into a debate about it.

To try to get into an intelligent discussion with someone who believe in "the flow of the cards" is usually impossible. To get into details about your play with any casino employee is usually -EV.

You were wise to leave.

Re: Stupid dealer comments
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 26-Feb-2004 15:29:45 (#6842)

I had a dealer look at me as I insured a 16 with a max bet out, "why would you insure a hand you have to hit anyway?" My response (with a sheepish shrug) "It was just a hunch". Of course then I had to listen to the dealer's personal lessons on the best way to play BJ for the rest of the shoe.

Re: Because it's true during a high C.
Posted by Tom on 25-Feb-2004 12:47:59 (#6823)

I've had a few dealers instigate I was messing up the flow and getting greedy(often play 2 hands after a win). These dealers actually start complaining before the ploppies do. Now that'll really piss you off. Needless to say I avoid these types before going on tilt.

Tom

The flow!!!!
Posted by Victoria on 26-Feb-2004 12:19:17 (#6835)

I have been playing at a place where they so far have been very tolerant of my play, spreading green 1-10, going to two hands at times, and wonging out. I should say the house is tolerant but being a place with a ton of regulars there are players who do not want to play at the same table as me and have given me a nickname which some day will probably help get me barred.
I am unoffically known as the Queen of the Anti Flow, I like it, it is an ego boost, but know it help lead to my search for other games. So I have decided to just go ahead and play till they say no more BJ or something to me.

As far as those dealers who lecture you about the flow, do not forget that many of them play themselves and just because they are dealers does not mean they are advantage players. They live in a ploppy universe where their tips and general peace on their tables depend upon all players paying homage to the sacred flow and they feel responsible and must inform the non believer. There will be a negative count soon, so wong out, if not the relief dealer will be coming shortly.
Victoria aka (Queen of the Anti Flow)

Reputation
Posted by Tom on 26-Feb-2004 14:30:29 (#6838)

Vicky,I dont think it's a good idea to have a reputation of being known to mess up ploppies games,especially if it's at a casino you enjoy and visit frequently. I try to get along and joke with everybody(if possible)and will often stay on my stiff hands against dealer bust cards during negative counts even though my index number says hit. These are marginable plays during my minimum bet and not hitting has an insignificant -ev%. In other words I'm giving up very little to keep the ploppies(and pit boss?)happy.

However during high counts I make my play as it is called for without getting many dirty looks. From my experience ploppies dont seem to care if we stay on 15v10,16v10,12v2,etc. or double on 10v10,8v6,etc. It's the "You took the dealers bust card" they complain about most of the time,which usally happens in negative counts when we deviate from basic strategy. If I were you,I'd take less hits during negative counts against the dealers up card more often to keep the damn FLOW going and ploppies happy.

We as card counters should get try to get along with ploppies when possible,after all,they pay our wages:$)

Good luck,
Tom

the flow
Posted by eyesfor21 on 26-Feb-2004 18:17:12 (#6845)

I hear the same flow b.s all the time from dealers and
players, I usually respond with yea and when I stand
up the cards will change too..sounds good in theory but
when they're asked to explain they can not it
can go 50- 50 just pure b.s and voodoo..

Re: the flow
Posted by Victoria on 27-Feb-2004 11:19:45 (#6862)

I guess one of the keys for the sacred FLOW for us, is to at least give it some positive lip service in order to appear as just another vodoo believing ploppy. The good thing is that it often is easy (even though I am the destroyer of the flow) since just about every believer in the flow will do things like take a hit, sit out a hand, spread to another hand all to just change the flow. Loose a hand with the count skyrocketing, I need to change the flow, so I spread to two hands. Count goes bad, I will change the flow for everyone else by wonging out.
We do need to respect the religions of others and theirs is the flow, but not to respect it so much that it cost us real EV.
Victoria

Re: Reputation
Posted by Victoria on 27-Feb-2004 11:02:40 (#6860)

Tom

It is in the good counts and with the BS players where the problem generally comes up. Like you, I am very willing to play BS on most marginal moves in negative counts just to keep peace and attention away when my minimum bet is out there. Now the BS players there are for the most part, typical BS players, probably knowing 75% of basic strategy, but when they feel you should always hit 15vs10 (they go both ways on 16) and you do not, the one time it helps the dealer is always remembered. The absolute worst thing that can be done in the positive count is going from one to two hands, comments used to flow even before a card was dealt. Now, I think they know me as a crazy player and either decide to play or leave but they are not surprised.

Anyway, just wanted to make it clear that neg counts are not really the problem except when I wong out.

Re: Reputation
Posted by Tom on 27-Feb-2004 13:42:08 (#6867)

Your experiences have been different than mine. I play at many different casinos all over the country and have noticed (in general) far less complaining by players during high counts when I double or dont hit stiffs(leave the bust card for the dealer?;) many ploppies feel this voodoo belief has merit. The worst case scenario is during negative counts when hitting stiffs against a bust card and getting the ten,as a result the dealer will often make a good hand and beat the whole table. That's what seems to get me the nastiest looks.

I find an ideal time to spread to 2 hands during plus counts without much attention is after the dealer gets a blackjack,is beating up the whole table or when someone leaves(or sits out). This happens quite frequently and I take advantage of these situations all the time.

I guess we all have different tactics,beliefs and experiences of what works best and what we're trying to achieve. The only thing I can tell you is what seems to work best for me and what I'm trying to achieve,which is $erinity.

Tom

The Thing to Keep in Mind...
Posted by SammyBoy on 25-Feb-2004 15:53:33 (#6827)

is that convincing people that you are a bad player is a GOOD thing. Although it kind of hurts the old ego, you've got to keep telling yourself that the more people that believe you are a bad player the better off you are in the long run.
You have to be able to laugh things off. This is very tough to do when losing, but you've got to pretend you're having a great time and that it's only money.

Re: Why Does it Seem...
Posted by Jim2 on 25-Feb-2004 19:43:02 (#6830)

You get more tens than aces, you just remember the aces more because they are burned into your memory. Any double down of an eleven that is hit with a ten is a non-event. That's why you doubled in a high count. You can't even trust your own recall of the game due to the high degree of pain inflicted by the game. Correct play is rewarded at only a small edge over the house. A huge edge is 2%. Dealing with negative reinforcement is a huge part of playing the game.

That being said, I feel the same way myself.

Bahama Blackjack
Posted by Cougar Red on 23-Feb-2004 19:09:17 (#6801)

Heading to Nassau in the summer.

What are the rules like there for re-splitting/doubling, dealer on soft 17 etc.

Thanks

Re: Bahama Blackjack
Posted by Dschddny on 26-Feb-2004 14:22:36 (#6836)

I was there last week. Here's what I remember: you can resplit pairs, double after split, and the dealer stands on soft 17.

The dealers also make a lot of mistakes (both in your favor and against you)! I am far from being the most experienced counter, but nevertheless I was trying to act like I didn't know what I was doing. My act was totally shot when the dealer started to take my chips when it should have been a push, and within milliseconds I corrected her!

2 hands in a row, I had a soft 18 vs a dealer 4, so I doubled. I lost both hands, and both times, the dealer told me I shouldn't have done that! I yelled back "I'll do the same thing again and again! Don't think I won't!"

TKO question
Posted by Cyrano on 24-Feb-2004 07:47:07 (#6806)

Does anybody know the formula used to True-count KO and indices to go along? Thanks.

Re: TKO question
Posted by Ken count on 25-Feb-2004 17:59:30 (#6829)

P is the number of decks played, D is the number of decks remaining, RC is the Running Count and TC is the true count, the formula expressed as (RC - 4P)/D = TC, provided that you use zero as your initial running count (IRC). This makes sense if you realize that the Pivot Point remains constant or same number no matter where you are in the shoe

hope this helps

Re: TKO question
Posted by Cyrano on 26-Feb-2004 04:22:39 (#6832)

Thanks Ken.

Yes, it helps. It sounds like I should set my IRC to -4P and just divide by decks, right? If I'm not mistaken, that means my TC will always stay 4 below the normal TC. For example, starting off at 6 decks, where the Hi-Lo is 0, the IRC should be -24/6=-4 for TKO.

By the way, do you know which simulator I can use to get index numbers for TKO? I've tried CVCX and BJ678. Neither calculates the True-Count for unbalanced systems.

_______

hope this helps

Re: TKO question
Posted by Ken count on 26-Feb-2004 15:17:25 (#6841)

why would you go through all this trouble Ko works
pretty good in it standard form. I use 0=IRC 16=Key
and 24=pivot and insurance at 23 on 6 decks this IRC
keeps me out of neg numbers most of the time there are also a few tweaks
that works very well for ko on six decks(you can get some bigger bets out sooner) let me know I will pass a few on to ya also what state are you playing
in

Re: TKO question
Posted by Cyrano on 26-Feb-2004 20:07:36 (#6849)

So we all know there's been a long-standing debate that goes something like this: KO is the easiest count and anybody who is learning KO shouldn't try to true-count it, right? That made sense the first time I heard it and it still makes sense now. But what if we throw in a couple curveballs? Curveball 1: I'm comfortable enough in KO to try to add to the EV (I have 50 index numbers under my belt) and Curveball 2: I understand true-counting an unbalanced count gives you a greater advantage than true-counting a balanced count (TKO will perform better than Hi-Lo) and true'ing will give me the flexibility to apply one set of indices for all decks. I had the choice of either TC'ing KO or adding an Ace side-count. Since TKO has a little more readily-available literature, I'm leaning towards that route (though I'm also considering learning an unbalanced level 2 count). I play in N. 'vada... mostly pitch games. When I was researching which count to use, I almost picked UBZ. Maybe I should switch. Do you have any opinions? Of the three: 1) TKO 2) Ace side-count or 3) switch to UBZ, which gives me the most "bang for the buck"? This is a very subjective question, so I won't hold you responsible for any feedback. ;-)

Another consideration: I'm thinking about learning shuffle-tracking in about a year's time(when I move to shoe-play) and TC will "train" me to estimate where the slugs are. Ken, if you want to get in touch with me, I've set up an email
nnevadabj@yahoo.com.

-------------

Re: TKO question
Posted by Ken Count on 27-Feb-2004 19:17:59 (#6873)

Well I think if you are playing single deck I
would definatly keep a side count of Aces.

Double deck assume an IRC of 0. If you use a different IRC, you can adjust the numbers by subtracting your IRC from the index number if it is negative and adding it to the index number if you have a positive IRC.This is the equvalent
of a hi lo count or True counting KO, pivot # always remains the same

Two Deckers
Decks Played TC => +1 TC => +2 TC => +3

0.5 4 5 7

1.0 5 6 7

1.5 7 7 8

No two games are exactly alike. a two-deck game,

up to 1/2 deck gone:
2 units @ 0
4 units @ +1
6 units @ +3
8 units @ +4

>1/2 deck to 1 deck gone:
2 units @ +1
4 units @ +2
6 units @ +3
8 units @ +4

>1 deck to 1 1/2 decks gone:
2 units @ +2
6 units @ +3
8 units @ +4
The gain in estimating the TC are primarily from being able to put out a medium-sized bet earlier than you would with the "standard" model and avoid putting out such a bet later in the pack

again hope this helps
Ken

Re: TKO question
Posted by ken count on 28-Feb-2004 18:10:43 (#6892)

sorry the numbers on the last post were
not lined up, this should be easier to read
this shows
you can adjust the key count
accordinting to where you are in the deck
the pivot point would be 8 and that = a hi lo TC of +4

Two Deckers
Decks Played TC => +1 TC => +2 TC => +3

--0.5---------------4----------5-------7

--1.0---------------5----------6--------7

--1.5---------------7----------7--------8

Re: TKO question
Posted by Cyrano on 29-Feb-2004 01:19:29 (#6898)

Thanks Ken, you've been very helpful! By the way, can you provide some guidance for how to use ace side-count info for KO and TKO?

Rudimentary Question
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Feb-2004 15:24:36 (#6811)

For those of you who play a lot of single deck, to what sort of resolution to you calculate TC?

I should have asked this question a long time ago. It's rudimentary. I don't think I ever remember reading about TC conversion for single deck! Even in Revere's book, unless I missed something. So, I just figured it out this way awhile back, is there a more accurate/easier way? I just didn't think of questioning my methods until now.

< approx. 13 cards TC=RC
approx. 13-21 cards +/- 1RC = +/- 1.5TC
approx. 21-31 cards +/- 1RC = +/- 2TC
approx. 31-36 cards +/- 1RC = +/- 3TC
> 36 +/- 1RC = +/- 4TC

I only play single deck a few times a year at most. And that time is again approaching. I should hone up first. I am very good at estimating the discard tray. It's my range numbers I question. Also, how bad have I hurt myself doing it this way if my numbers are too far off?

Thank,
-Felix

Re: Rudimentary Question
Posted by SammyBoy on 24-Feb-2004 16:15:24 (#6812)

IMO, what you are using is just fine. I use 1/4 decks to determine the TC in single deck. 13 cards dealt I divide the RC by .75, 26 cards out I divide RC by .5. I don't think you have to be very precise, the important thing is to get more money out during the positive counts, but I know that you know that.

Re: Rudimentary Question
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Feb-2004 16:38:02 (#6813)

Thanks, good to know. It was dumb of me not to verify this sooner.

The reason I decided not to start with the first 1/4 deck is this:

Consider:
+2RC with 13 cards(1/4 deck) out, TC would be 2X1.34=2.67, rounded to 3
+2RC with 17-18 cards(1/3 deck) out, TC would be 2X1.5=3.00 = 3

It seemed easier to use the ranges I do.

Also, am I correct when I say that TC conversion was not discussed in Revere's book? I know it is obsolete. But just out of curiosity, did he even use a TC?

Thanks,
-Felix

another way to state SD RC to TC conversion
Posted by John Lewis on 25-Feb-2004 00:58:00 (#6815)

@ 2.7 cards / player or dealer hand

1/4 deck = 5 hands
1/3 deck = 6 hands
1/2 deck = 10 hands
2/3 deck = 13 hands
3/4 deck = 14 hands

1/4 deck = 13 cards = 5 hands : TC = RC x 1.333 (or add 1/3 to RC)
1/3 deck = 17 cards = 6 hands : TC = RC x 1.5 (or add 1/2 to RC)
1/2 deck = 26 cards = 10 hands : TC = RC x 2
2/3 deck = 34 cards = 13 hands : TC = RC x 3
3/4 deck = 39 cards = 14 hands : TC = RC x 4

A simple method
Posted by LVBear584 on 25-Feb-2004 13:02:47 (#6824)

When playing heads-up, double the count on Round 6 and beyond.

With one other player, or heads-up playing two spots, double the count on Round 4 and beyond.

This simple method is not perfectly accurate, of course. But it reduces the potential for errors, and speeds your game up. You don't even have to look at the discard tray. As Sammy Boy pointed out, shoving the money out when the count is good is the single most important ingredient of success. Hands per hour is an important consideration as well. At single deck there is frequent shuffling, so you need to play as quickly as possible to maximize your hourly EV.

Unless you use a sophisticated count system and/or several side counts, and use a large unit size ($100.00 or above), you probably should not be wasting your time on single deck games with more than one other player. By the nature of your question, I assume this is not the case.

Re: A simple method
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 25-Feb-2004 13:24:53 (#6825)

Thanks,

If half-deck resolution is good enough, I have been doing fine. I can already play pretty fast the way I have practiced.

-Felix

Henry Tamburin Revisited
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 25-Feb-2004 07:54:43 (#6817)

Here is a question from a Robert V. Lux Interview:

Q#11: There are many skilful, serious and knowledged authors on blackjack, though, there are also a bunch of authors, who make up their own systems and give a "mathematically erroneous view" on the game. I won't mention any names, as I presume you know which I refer to. What's your opinion on these authors, who fanatically spread an invalid rip off way of playing blackjack?

I expose fraudulent blackjack systems in my columns and articles when they come to my attention. I don't have a high opinion of authors of these systems. Unfortunately as long as unwary blackjack players purchase them, there will always be a market for them.

Please tell me about your new $700 Speed Count System........

http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/gtb_disc.asp

Rob, What's Your Beef with Henry?
Posted by SammyBoy on 25-Feb-2004 09:37:50 (#6818)

I'm just curious, do you guys have a history? Are you just busting his balls because of his possible voodoo system? Just for the record I said possible, since it has not been verified by any of the knowledgable BJ experts.

Re: Rob, What's Your Beef with Henry?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 25-Feb-2004 10:48:09 (#6819)

The only history we have is a discussion about whether or not Zen Grifter is a con or not, and an article of mine that he published in BJI. I would like Henry, who has posted here, to give us a breakdown on "IT" and hopefully have a meaningful discussion. He seems to be ducking the issue, which I find unusual for someone that says what he does in the above post, and by my communications with him in the past.

Re: Rob, What's Your Beef with Henry?
Posted by SammyBoy on 25-Feb-2004 11:15:50 (#6820)

Ok, that's what I figured. I think we'd all like to know the story with his system.

Re: Rob, What's Your Beef with Henry?
Posted by BlackJackHack on 26-Feb-2004 09:54:48 (#6833)

Tamburin has (or should have)zero credibility with serious APs. The guy writes books and articles featuring optimal playing strategies for unbeatable games (e.g., slots, craps), and lots of other articles for ploppy magazines. See:

http://www.smartgaming.com/
http://www.casino.com/blackjack/about.asp

Tunica---Bipolar Dealer?
Posted by phantom007 on 25-Feb-2004 15:01:09 (#6826)

During my most recent Tunica trip, I had an unusual Dealer experience. Having never been to Harrah-bles (rhymes with terrible), and having been the previous month, flat betted at my (formerly) favorite Casino (rhymes with "old dyke"), I felt it was time to check out new opportunities.

Going in the main entrance, I noticed a "bulliten board" sign that showed a picture of a Harrah-bles Players Card and a picture of a Drivers License...in large letters below the picture, it was written something to the effect of:

-----"When you use our card, we reserve the right to see yours."

My what??? Probably out to cover underage gamblers, drinkers, or money launderers. Probably????? Yeah!...I just made $100k cash on an illegal arms deal, and I am going to wash it at the nickle slots!

The casino was small, even by Tunica standards. Lots of side-show games, LIR, 3-5-7, etc. Several 6D tables, and finally, one nearly full DD. As I sat down into the only open seat, I asked the Dealer if this was their only DD table. He pointed and said "There is a $25 DD over there".

I looked in the direction of the point...only saw a bunch of slots. Maybe their "High Roller" room was behind the slots. Maybe he was pointing to the Hollywood next door.

The table limits were $10-500., and rules of H17 and no RSA. At shuffle, it looked like pen. @ 65%...relief Dealer only cut to 60%. I was playing "shortstop"...the 3rd baseman was spreading from one green to two hands of "stacked black", in no apparent relation to anything. The other 3 players to my right were spreading #2-4 red, also using the same system as the THC ("Tunica High Roller"). I figured my $10-50. spread would stay under the radar. Wrong!

After only 2 shuffles, Dealer nodded to FP, FP came over, Dealer nods at me, and I swear he said "Counter". FP looks at me and smiles, I smile, the Dealer smiles....everyone is having a f#%king great time! However, nothing happened. I played along as before, but started tipping MORE than usual!

Maybe I am just (even more) paranoid after being "flatted" recently. Maybe FP had asked Dealer what he would like to do to the cocktail waitress, and after a long period of thought, he called the FP over and nodded at the waitress behind me, and said "MOUNT HER" Certainly, "mount her" sounds alot like "counter".

Play, play, play. Tip, tip, tip. An hour and a half later, Dealer gives me 7,7 vs. 8-up in a sky-high count. Since DAS was allowed, I split, even though the count was so high (+16) that I would probably get two 17's to loose to Dealer's 18.

Hand #1---10, of course.

Hand #2---a 5...thanks, now I have 12...a 2, thanks again, now have 14...I signalled for a hit. The Dealer just looked at me. Signalled again for a hit. Same response. Maybe he was now trying to help me. Had he already checked his hole card...don't know. I signalled "stand". THC to my left decides now is NOT the time to DD his 11 (when the cards were flipped, he of course, got a face). Dealer turns over a 6 to go with his 8-up, draws a face, and I and He win both hands.

A few hands later, I drew a 10 to a 2,3, hit, and got another 10-card. Thinking I was being funny, I tucked my 2,3, with a total of 20 showing. The Dealer frowned, leaned over to flip my (obvious) bust hand, and whispered "One of the easiest ways to get put under Survelience is to tuck bust hands".

I exited shortly thereafter, ahead $95 for 2 hours work, plus one pack of smokes, and 3 beers.

Why only 3 beers? Well, I was driving (grin).

phantom007.

Re: Tunica---Bipolar Dealer?
Posted by SammyBoy on 25-Feb-2004 16:08:20 (#6828)

Great report Phantom! Maybe we can hook up in T Town one of these days. I played at the old dyke last time I was there and got hammered, but the place next door more than made up for it. My one memory about the old dyke was from my first trip there nearly 2 years ago. I was trying to blend in with the crowd and I had a super fast dealer, which we usually all love. But on this day not only was the bitch dealing fast but she was very impatient. She would tap my circle when I was slow getting my bet out there and it was starting to piss me off. She even dealt out the cards and before I could even look at my cards ( I was tipping the CW for my drink) she flips her hole card and takes a hit. At this point I was really pissed and let her know it, probably not the best move on my part. But she realized that she was wrong and did not press the issue. I left not long after that.

On a different trip I spent a night at their hotel and could not believe how thin the walls were. It is impossible to get a decent nights rest at that place. The absolute worst I've ever been to.

Almost killed myself last night
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Feb-2004 11:28:52 (#6834)

Playing $25 DD at the Barona. I was doing everything right, using my sidecounts, spreading properly, and the dealer kept dealing himself 20 after 20 after 20 after 21 after 20 after 20. I was getting the counts, but it was almost like the count didn't mean anything.

After a few hours of this and blowing through $1000, I felt it. Chest pain! On the left side and spreading into my shoulder. Seems my cursing, banging on the table act when I lose a hand had become more than an act and the stress was getting to me. What's more, I couldn't get a drink. This is the second Indian casino I've played in that didn't serve alchy and the second time I've been slaughtered like this. So I have a theory: that my act is moderated by alcohol and if I don't have it as a counterbalance the stress may get too much, the act becomes to real and it affects my play and health. The bad news is that's a symptom of being an alcoholic. But the good news is I have learned something valuable!

I'm going back right now to try to get some back. But I'm going to take a couple of aspirins first. It would be a shame to croak with a high TC. I wonder if Heaven accepts foreign cheques. The other place doesn't. Besides I hear they only have 6:5.

Re: Almost killed myself last night
Posted by Tom on 26-Feb-2004 14:46:50 (#6839)

Sorry to hear about the bad punch you took. I think everybody has taken a brutal #ss whipping before and felt the pain,I sure have(many times).

An occasional glass of wine seems to get along with me.

Now would probably be a good time to bet conservatively,relax and be patient,maybe enjoy a small glass of wine(where available). If I were you I'd probably drop my minimum to $10.

Good luck,
Tom

Re: Almost killed myself last night
Posted by Count Luckula on 26-Feb-2004 16:45:06 (#6843)

A $1k hit does hurt, but shouldn't be unexpected when playing quarters. That kind of swing can happen very quickly. As long as you're playing a good game, and your bankroll and sanity can handle it, you shouldn't lower your unit size. It will just take you longer to make up for the bad session.

Making money is nice, but not worth jeopardizing your health.

On that note, keep those free drinks coming!

Re: Almost killed myself last night
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Feb-2004 17:25:08 (#6844)

I recall a day trip I took down to San Diego a few years back, I took $1800 for the day's bankroll and intended on playing low green. I lost the bankroll in just over 5 hours.

-- Mayor

Re: Almost killed myself last night
Posted by deZerTomB on 26-Feb-2004 20:36:00 (#6850)

a thousand is not worth dying over. I can think of very few things that are. hehe.

I try to take the attitude to live to fight another day when it comes to losing sessions or streaks. I even walked away from a table with a positive count after losing my loss limit on my last vegas trip. Didn't get struck by lightning or anything. Of course it helped that I didn't have any more c-notes in my wallet. Back to the room for a break and more cash. Clear your your mind and then analyze playing conditions and strategy for errors. Maybe it was just variance. I go to casinos like I go to restraunts, if the food and service are terrible or they treat me like dirt, why should I go there?

The indians serve drinks here in the coachella valley, but not barona.I've never been to barona but heard it has a nice golf course.

Sorry to hear about the loss, but keep your head up and heart pumpin'. We need all the counters we can get. Overwhelm the ba$tards! Go back and take their money, that'll heal some wounds.

Re: Almost killed myself last night
Posted by Tom on 26-Feb-2004 22:40:41 (#6851)

I think you jumped the gun a little quick.

"If I were you I'd probably drop my minimum to $10."

The results can be a RELAXING benefit because variance decreases, ev increases,what more you want?

I'm still alive
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 27-Feb-2004 19:12:53 (#6871)

Thanks for the good advice all. I doubt that I have heart disease but I might get it checked sometime. But from now on I'm going to have my aspirin and Red Bull before every session.

Went back the next day and got about half of my money back, felt much better.

Oh, and the important stuff...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 27-Feb-2004 19:16:29 (#6872)

... almost forgot!

Playing conditions at Barona:

SD, DD, and 6D shoe. Rules are excellent- H17, DOA, DAS, LSR on all games. How often do you see LSR on a pitch game? All 6D shoes were using CSM except for one, and no one was dealing the hand shuffled one.

SD was in the high limi $100 pit only. There was also some SD Superfun being dealt.

Penetration on the DD was awful. 60% max and some dealers as low as 45%. Still, the very advantageous rules do a good job of making up for it. If you are a black chip SD player this place deserves a visit. No noticeable heat spreading 1-8 at $25 DD.

Get to a doctor, anything else is -EV
Posted by Nameless for now on 26-Feb-2004 19:21:53 (#6848)

Monkey... this is NOT a normal response to stress. Stress doesn't cause chest pain, coronary artery disease does. The stress just brings on the "tell". The problem you should be worrying about it not your act or your game, but your health. Unless Barona has cardiologists on staff, you should be headed to a doctor for a stress test, not to Barona. I know you're not home, but San Diego has some of the best heart care in the country--go now. The game will wait.

>After a few hours of this and blowing through $1000, I felt it. Chest pain! >On the left side and spreading into my shoulder. Seems my cursing, banging on >the table act when I lose a hand had become more than an act and the stress >was getting to me. What's more, I couldn't get a drink. This is the second >Indian casino I've played in that didn't serve alchy and the second time I've >been slaughtered like this. So I have a theory: that my act is moderated by >alcohol and if I don't have it as a counterbalance the stress may get too >much, the act becomes to real and it affects my play and health. The bad news >is that's a symptom of being an alcoholic. But the good news is I have >learned something valuable!

Amen to That
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 27-Feb-2004 08:15:06 (#6854)

Stress will kill you by itself, but having a less than magnificent heart will make it easier for your out of control brain to kill you. Many new counters take their holidays and go play BJ and never relax. Bad bad bad. Once your bankroll is as big as King Solomon's, THEN you can relax and play black...grin I find that if I drink rye n coke the coke peeks my counting functions and the poison calms me so I do not feel fear of making the proper bet. That is one drink. Coffee does the same for my morning play. I like to come down and have my free coffee (which I tip $1 for) and get my freak on first thing. Then I like to fat out with brunch, check out the sports book, then go for a dip in the hot tub. Come back at 1130 and join the addicted lunch crew that plays during their lunch in Vegas for the fun of it. Then it's nap time. Around 230 I repeat the morning coffee BJ and fat out, and go for another nap. In the PM I spiff upa bit, make it look like I'm looking for female company, and go after the tables again, this time with the RnC in hand. About 3AM I'm up due to my incessant visions and have to play to forget the most realistic dreams.

Your act is no longer an act once you become the part. That is how you beat a lie detector, you actually become what you are not. So unless you want to become dead, get a new act, and take care of your body, it's the only one you get. As for your trip to the pearly gates? Only one way in bro, and the don't cash chips from other places.....grin

SEE A DOCTOR NOW!!!
Posted by Big Cowboy on 27-Feb-2004 08:58:00 (#6857)

Automatic Monkey, I agree with Nameless for Now. This is no joking matter. What you experienced is classic for heart disease. Not to add any more stress to you losing $1K, but you really need to be evaluated by a physician. You are no good to yourself either incapacitated or dead. Then you'll never ever have to worry about EVs again.

Norepinephrine does funny things!
Posted by MrPill on 27-Feb-2004 09:45:36 (#6858)

A.M.,

Sounds like maybe you do need to step back and take a breather. When your anxiety level runs so high due to the stress of your session, then alot of weird stuff can happen. When your neurotransmitters get a boost from the situation and your body gets ready for the "fight or flight".

Nobody likes to take such a loss, but if you are playing at a level that your bankroll can support, then it sounds like your not ready to be betting at that level. This was a loss of only 40 units which I think folks here will agree can and does happen.

If you beleive in the math and your not overbetting your BR, then you need to be able to go with the flow and not be affected by the session. As others have stated, it's not worth it if it causes you such anxiety.

I hope you take a breather and re-evaluate your situation for a while. Maybe set a lower loss limit before taking a break if loosing 40 units causes you so much anxiety. Take the "flight" next time and get ready for the next session.

Pill

Get to a cardio-diagnostic specialist...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 27-Feb-2004 14:56:02 (#6868)

then if you have a some blockage, seriously consider ALL the options. Look into getting about 30 treatments of Chelation Therapy instead of bypass surgery. I've done it. Check the internet and learn.

Re: Get to a cardio-diagnostic specialist...
Posted by Lower Your Bet; See a Doctor on 28-Feb-2004 09:02:12 (#6882)

Man:

You were so stressed out at losing a K playing green that you felt like you were ready to go into cardiac arrest?? Take the advice and get a check-up; it could save your life!

WRT to losing sessions. They happen all the time and the swings in this biz are too extreme to get upset or excited about based on the results. All you can do is be properly bankrolled; play good games and play well and get the hours in. The wins/losses are beyond your control and should not be your focus. If your "act" stops being an "act" then maybe it time to determine whether your financial and/or emotional bankroll can handle then swings. This is a self-assessment that only you can do.

BTW - I played this week at one of my favorite venues. I went with 2 friends from work (non-counters who mooched a free meal off me); anyhow I dropped 13K playing black at a great game which really bummed out my friends. Anyhow I didnt think twice about it and fell asleep the minute we got in the car for the trip back to the hotel while they were jabbering away about what they could have done with the dough.

Its a tough game; even tougher if you get emotional about the results.

Good luck!

wong out

10 much better than 11 with high TC
Posted by Dschddny on 26-Feb-2004 14:29:59 (#6837)

It seems that it's a much better situation if you have a 10-total than an 11-total vs a dealer card of 9 or less when the TC is very high. This is because in addition to the many 10-cards remaining, there are also many aces remaining, which will kill your 11-total (as mentioned in a previous post).

So, is it even a good idea to double on an 11-total with a high TC, unless you have an Ace sidecount which is low?

I'll take 11, thanks
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 26-Feb-2004 15:16:32 (#6840)

Yes,

There are 4 tens to every ace. In those high counts, without an ace side count, all you can do is assume a proportional distribution of aces and tens. Plus 5 count: 4 tens, 1 ace. You are still more likely to pick off a ten than an ace in this situation.

Trust the math. The indicies of your system were developed long ago, and are correct.

Re: 10 much better than 11 with high TC
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 27-Feb-2004 07:27:06 (#6853)

Now you see the big positive to counts like the Hi Opt II.

Re: 10 much better than 11 with high TC
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Mar-2004 11:13:32 (#6955)

Yes, double on 11. The biggest boost you get from a high TC is the increased probability of the dealer busting. That's why you double on 8's and even 7's with a sufficiently high TC, not because you are eager to draw a 17.

There can be exceptions to this at extremely high TC's (example- TC>+15 using High-Low) where the betting correlation starts to break down and few counters have learned the full playing indices but these are counts you see once in many years, if that, and thus not a significant impact on your EV.

more dbls
Posted by eyesfor21 on 02-Mar-2004 13:49:18 (#6964)

How about dbl a/7 with proper basic although,you no there
are not to many 2/3 left at all?

Gut feeling
Posted by Victoria on 02-Mar-2004 16:34:09 (#6968)

Since you know there are few 2's or 3's left, I am assuming a positive count.
The same cards that make your hand into a 20 or 21 are cards that can help the dealer get past his stiff with a 14-16. I would think a shoe heavy in Aces and faces giving you 18 or 19, would be a shoe that would increase the dealers chance of busting his stiff, so I double and the ploppies cringe.

Asking about the number of decks
Posted by Dschddny on 27-Feb-2004 08:40:18 (#6855)

What is the best way to find out how many decks are being used (other than estimating yourself)? I feel that if I ask the dealer, then I am flagging myself as a counter (since no one other than a counter should care how many decks are played).

Re: Asking about the number of decks
Posted by feep on 27-Feb-2004 10:48:36 (#6859)

This gets easier over time, but if I ever want to make sure it's six and not eight:

"You have to shuffle all those together? How many is that? Eight?!"

or, for an automatic shuffler:

"Good thing you don't have to shuffle all those together! How many is that? Eight?!"

Feep

Re: Asking about the number of decks
Posted by Sonny on 27-Feb-2004 11:51:22 (#6863)

> What is the best way to find out how many decks are being used?
> (other than estimating yourself)? I feel that if I ask the dealer,
> then I am flagging myself as a counter (since no one other than
> a counter should care how many decks are played).

If you can estimate a discard tray you should have no problem seeing how many decks are in play in most games. If you have trouble with large piles of cards, just wait until the shuffle - they will break the shoe into two (maybe more) piles and shuffle them together. Once you estimate one pile you can double that to determine the total number of decks being used. That is how I first noticed that one of my favorite casinos started dealing 8 decks instead of six. I had assumed it was the normal 6 decks when I sat down, but when they started to shuffle it just didn't look right. I noticed that both stacks were about 4 decks high. This was what set off the warning bells in my head.

The only time you should have to ask about the number of decks is when they are hidden, like in an automatic shuffler - or CSM (which you should avoid anyway). A good way to deal with this is to walk up and watch the game for a while. After a few minutes the dealer will ask if you want to play (they are required by the casinos to ask. Most of them have what they call a "10-5 rule" that forces dealers to interact with nearby players). Just gesture to the shuffler and say "I don't trust those things. You can't see what goes on in there or anything. You can't even tell how many decks are in there!" At that point the dealer will probably clue you in.

-Sonny-

Re: Asking about the number of decks
Posted by SammyBoy on 27-Feb-2004 12:31:59 (#6865)

If I'm not sure I will ask. I have been to some casinos where they use really thicks cards and 6 decks will look like 8 decks. Many places will have the number of decks on a sign. I never worry about asking, I don't believe that by asking the question you are giving yourself away as a counter. I believe it is all in the way you carry yourself.

Re: Asking about the number of decks
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 01-Mar-2004 12:32:33 (#6925)

The best way to find out the number of decks is too say in a loud voice (so he is sure to hear you) "Hey, how many decks are you dealing there?"

If you are really worried about it, if they reply "6", then say "Darn, I am always luckier with 8 decks!"

Stats
Posted by revereman on 27-Feb-2004 11:15:19 (#6861)

I have a run a regression analysis, computer simulations, beta testing (and did some addition and division) to come up with the following stats for this month's poll:

Age 18-30 42%

31-45 34%

46+ 24%
Conclusion: I'm older than 76% of the respondents.

Male 94%
Female 6%
Conclusions: Mating of two counters on this board is unlikely.
Mating of most male counters is unlikely anyhow.

Bankroll under 20k 71%
Bankroll over 20k 29%
Conclusion: Casino personnel on this board should leave us alone.

Democrats 46%
Republicans 54%
Conclusion: Someone should be able to come up with something on this one.

Good Looking: 155
Conclusion: Since there are about 150 respondents who lie, the above results cannot be relied on.

I'm voted niether Dem nor Republican *NM*
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 27-Feb-2004 15:40:05 (#6869)

request
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Feb-2004 22:03:06 (#6874)

Dear Revereman,

would you like to suggest the March poll?

Much appreciation in advance,

--Mayor

Ideas
Posted by SammyBoy on 28-Feb-2004 13:22:59 (#6884)

Most units lost in one day (24 hour period)?
What count do you use?
How long have you been an advantage player?
How many casinos have barred you?
Have you ever been back roomed?
How many hours of blackjack will you play this year?
Have you written and had published a book on advantage play?
How often do you notice other counters at your table while playing BJ?
Have you ever been employed by a casino?

Re: Ideas
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Feb-2004 13:28:05 (#6885)

>Most units lost in one day (24 hour period)?
Already done.

>What count do you use?
Already done.

> How long have you been an advantage player?
Already done.

>How many casinos have barred you?
>Have you ever been back roomed?
Done together in one poll (along with other types of heat).

>How many hours of blackjack will you play this year?
Already done.

>Have you written and had published a book on advantage play?
No for 99.99% of all people looking at the web site.

>How often do you notice other counters at your table while playing BJ?
Not interesting 8-)

>Have you ever been employed by a casino?
Now, this is one I might look in to! Are you a casino spy? 8-)

--Mayor

Re: mas Ideas
Posted by eyesfor21 on 28-Feb-2004 16:00:34 (#6890)

where have you played played bjack-
U.SA
CANADA
EUROPE
ASIA
TROPICS
RUSSIA
EQUADOR
GREECE
etc.

how many have used team play?

how many have used changing their look?

what is most crazy thing you done_(yet we are not endorsing)
added to chip pile,
changed cards,
hole card reader,
did a midshoe where its not allowed
did bets smaller than minimum required.

Shifts
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 27-Feb-2004 12:09:59 (#6864)

Would some of you Vegas regulars please explain a little bit about the dealers/pits shifts in Downtown Vegas? When do you feel it is necessary limit your exposure time to any one crew, and what is your maximum play time per sitting considering a no-heat situation(of course leave immediately with heat).

I think I've read that there are swing shift people at some positions. Are these pit crew? dealers? security? Does this mean it's best not to overplay within a 12 hour period as opposed to an 8 hour period? What casinos employ this and when? Only on weekends?, only between second and third shifts and/or first and second?

In the midwest they have a parade 3 times a day at 12, 8 and 4. A parade of new dealers walk up to the pit, do some shoulder tapping, and shortly after a parade of dealers walk out. The pit seems to change shortly after, but not always all of them. I have never really noticed how this works in L.V.

Thanks,
-Felix

Re: Shifts
Posted by SammyBoy on 27-Feb-2004 12:36:16 (#6866)

That is a great question and I cannot wait to see the replies. I know that the places I have played (outside of LV) seem to stagger the floor people with the dealers. In other words the dealers shifts are very predictable, but the floor people seem to have very unpredictable shifts.

Re: Shifts
Posted by deZerTomB on 27-Feb-2004 19:05:38 (#6870)

I thought it was day shift, swing shift, night shift.

And I noticed some dealers coming on at 4am or so.

Another place around 8pm.

So maybe 4am to 12noon day shift.
Noon to 8pm swing shift (swings from day to night).
8pm to 4am night shift.

Also where penetration varies by dealer, sometimes improves significantly from 2-4am. Makes sense, dealers are tired, don't care as much, ready to go home, crowds are gone, less scrutiny from PB.

Also noticed a suit so busy doing paperwork he only looked up for cash-ins and color changes and even then just waved his hand and didn't look up most of the time. This was around 8-9am.

I doubt the suits come in at 4am, so maybe a guess 8am-4pm-midnight.

And finally from the travel channel when they go to the eye in the sky room, I only see 1 person in there and all these monitors and tape machines. Maybe from 6pm-2am they have 2. It would be nice to know when they change the tapes. This is all guesswork, but I hope it helps.

Re: Shifts
Posted by BlackJackHack on 27-Feb-2004 23:24:10 (#6875)

In my experience in LV, 4a-12n/12n-8p/8p-4a seems pretty standard for both dealers and PCs.

Re: Shifts
Posted by Count Luckula on 01-Mar-2004 09:16:12 (#6919)

One of the things that may be confusing is that there are some shops which change shifts at different hours (i.e. LVC swing at 2.) Also, during exceptionally busy times, like superbowl weekend, one place was running extended shifts. They were also so busy and understaffed, people had to wait to take out markers. You know in those situations, they can't possibly keep their eyes on everybody.

"Flow" anecdote
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 28-Feb-2004 00:44:34 (#6878)

I have an all time extreme case of ploppy 'Flow' worship that happened about a month ago.

Seat 6- Partially toothless redneck. Red flannel and overalls. A man truly out of his element in this inner-city casino.

3rd base- A fat inner-city woman.

When the dealer asked the redneck in seat 6 if he wanted a hit, the redneck asked the fat woman at 3rd base if SHE was going to hit. When she said yes, he told her "OK, then I'll stay". The problem was he was subconsciously tapping the felt while he was talking to her. He accidentally drew to 21.

He told the dealer he didn't want to hit. The dealer explained how he had tapped the felt, and drew to 21. I even spoke up and said: "Hey buddy, you got 21 there... if she looses just give her some of the money you'll win". But nope, he started an argument that lasted a few minutes, involved the pit, and eventually led to the forfeiture of his hit card to the woman at 3rd.

Unbelieveable! I was getting the worst verbal pommeling by the denizens of this hell-hole all night because of my 'stupid' plays like hitting A-7 against 10! I'm baffled! How could any play be worse than electively un-drawing from 21???!!!

I was actually starting make plays to tick them off in order to get rid of them (at a cost). But no, they feed on that crap! It makes them feel knowledgeable to confirm each other superstitions. Unfortunately, this was the single lowest minimum table in the house, and I didn't have enough with me to play at any other table without certain death. I can't wait to get to Vegas where this stuff is much less common. Or, if it does happen you can just walk to the casino next door.

-Felix

Great story. I can't stop laughing. *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 28-Feb-2004 00:56:24 (#6879)

A bit more
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 28-Feb-2004 01:37:01 (#6880)

I can't remember the exact values of all the hands. But I do remember that he forced a hard 13 upon the woman. So, not only did he screw himself, he screwed her too. And she completely went along with it.

Again... Unbelievable!

-Felix

Amazing people
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 28-Feb-2004 09:43:49 (#6883)

I assume Mr. snaggle-tooth and the fat lady lost both of their stiff hands? It would have been even more sickening if they had won with their plays resulting in a D bust.

We need to come up with a snappy 'set them in their place' come back whenever we see this kind of ignorance. If I had a good answer to these kind of people, maybe I could get them to feel uncomfortable and leave the table, thus keeping me from losing my composure and EV. Also, less players at the table is always better. ;-)

Any body have any snappy come-backs we can use for the �card flow� people?

Problem is
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 28-Feb-2004 18:36:11 (#6893)

These people are so stupid and so dense that they are oblivious to any reference to comon sense or logic. Snappy answers get you nowhere with these types. They are quite convinced that they have captured the essense of the mystical side of the game. I generally agree with most of these types at the table especially if the pit is nearby. That alone is usually good for a 50% increase in spread.

A good snappy answer for ploppies
Posted by Tom on 28-Feb-2004 23:27:22 (#6895)

1)yeah'

2)a'huh'

3)oh'

Re: A good snappy answer for ploppies
Posted by BlackJackHack on 29-Feb-2004 12:59:01 (#6902)

I agree.

It's very tempting to try to tell off ploppies, to explain how stupid they are, and demonstrate how intelligent we are. Most of us APs are well educated geeky professional types who like people to think we are smart (because we are smart). When playing BJ, however, it is counterproductive for anybody to think you have a clue. The hardest part of counting for me is to check my ego at the door and act like the other idiots in the casino. It is, however, critical to your longevity.

Re: A good snappy answer for ploppies
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 29-Feb-2004 16:33:01 (#6907)

Your responses to my last post are all very correct. But I will elaborate this time on a specific reason I want to shut them up so I can continue to do what I need to do.

On 6D, I will usually always spread to two hands when the D is at 2TC or better. Therefore I'm back a forth often using either one hand, two hands or maybe doing a mini wong out by just sitting out a few 'til the cut card comes or C gets better. During my mini wong out, I may talk to the the PC, light a smoke (even though I'm a non-smoker)or back-off and pretend to make a call on the cell phone.

Sometimes people get so pissed when I do these things. When they are pissed, so becomes the D. I either have to cut it back or say something to get them off my back.

Suggestions for this situation please?

suggestion
Posted by Tom on 01-Mar-2004 03:10:54 (#6913)

I usually bet one hand of 4 units went the count is only a tc of 2 and will often spread to 2 hands of 4 if the tc is more than 3. This way I can play 2 hands longer and often finish out the shoe. If the TC drops I'll still play 2 hands untill I no longer have an edge. Maybe you should wait a little longer before going to 2 hands.

Tom

Re: Amazing people
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 29-Feb-2004 00:01:10 (#6896)

I honestly can't remember. But I think they did both loose. I am on my way back probabaly as we speak. So wish me luck.

Re: "Flow" anecdote
Posted by revereman on 28-Feb-2004 16:12:12 (#6891)

It is both redundant and repetitive to write a partially toothless redneck. You know you are a redneck when...you use an old TV as a TV stand for your new TV. (there are a lot better ones from Jeff Foxworthy but for some reason I remember that one).
Good story.

Re: "Flow" anecdote
Posted by Big Cowboy on 29-Feb-2004 09:49:57 (#6900)

You know when you're a redneck ploppy when you give up a hand of 21. Once, when I played in Vegas, there was a newby ploppy playing to my left who split 10s. She ended up winning one hand and losing one and was happy to have just pushed. I was having a bad day, so I couldn't help myself when I told her she actually had lost money. I had won my hand and would have won if she had just stayed on 20. She didn't understand that she would have won money if she had just stayed pat with a her good hand, and even the dealer tried with no good result to explain to her that splitting tens was usually a bad idea. I will never forget her reply to me: "It's not like I'm playing with real money. Those chips aren't for real." The dealer and I just looked at each other like, she's good looking but boy is she a pile of mush inside. I left the table soon after because I was losing money overall at that casino. It reminded me of the Simpsons episode when the feds tried to explain to Homer how to call for help when he felt he was in danger. He didn't understand the danger in joining the witness protection program, and instead wore a t-shirt that showed that he was in hiding. He thought he was going on vacation for free.

Re: "Flow" anecdote
Posted by BradRod on 29-Feb-2004 14:31:07 (#6903)

great story felix, these pathetic imbeciles take their notions about this game way too far.

Back from Budapest. more about that another time.

along the same lines .. but having more to do with pit person.
this weekend I was playing where you first noticed me. Same table as a matter of fact. at 3rd base - (postion 6 ? ) hit 12 against a 2 or 3 .. or one of those plays that makes other players want to comment about it.. maybe it was soft 18. dont remeber but what ever it was the result prevented the dealer drawing to 21 and everyone got paid.

now, I have been trying to work on my camaflage a bit trying to act more like a ploppie when i can to keep from getting noticed too much. When everyone started to make me out to be a hero for playing 3rd base properly and responsibly with the best interests of the table in mind, i jokingly made a gesture with my hand that they should all pay me for my proper play in saving their hands.

the next hand was dealt and i get a tap on the shoulder from the pit person, "sorry sir , i have to ask you not to do that". i got startled and answered " i swear i wasnt counting cards and varying my bet and strategy according to the count. i swear that insurance bet was just on a hunch and even if i was counting cards i lost the count a couple of hands ago when the waitress spilled the drink on that other player. Please dont back me off .. ( just kidding : )
"no, silly . she said - we know you cant count all those cards in the shoe there are too many of them for anyone to do that " -- ok,, no, what she said was.. "we cant have you asking for money from the other players.. ( was there a phone call from the camera people about this ?? ) i answered that i was only kidding and evryone else here knew that i was kidding. she said yes but we have to put a stop too this there is too muxh of it going around so we just dont allow it.. meaning players are actually paying other players for "flow" type strategies pretty scary huh ?

meanwhile, while this pit person was distracting me the dealer passed me right by with my soft 18 against her 6. she was already revealing her hole card when i noticed it, i protested that i was going to double down on it.. at least the pit person had the sense to allow me to do this without an argument i drew a 2. the dealer revealed her hole face card - 16 and drew an 8. Busted !!.. guess i saved the table again ..

The flow is about the future?????
Posted by Victoria on 01-Mar-2004 11:10:08 (#6922)

Yesterday, I am at 3rd base, count is +5, I have 2 bets of 200 out there. I get 2 16's in a n

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