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Threads 961 to 990

LOOKING FOR PARTNERS IN MARYLAND
Posted by JOHN C. on 02-Mar-2004 00:35:19 (#6945)

LOOKING FOR ANYONE IN MARYLAND OR CLOSE TO HOOK UP FOR AC. I AM IN BJ ABOUT 6 TO 8 YEARS, OFF AND ON. UP AND DOWN. LATELY I GOT SO MUCH HEAT IN AC.

Re: LOOKING FOR PARTNERS IN MARYLAND
Posted by Sonny on 02-Mar-2004 10:52:39 (#6953)

> LOOKING FOR ANYONE IN MARYLAND OR CLOSE TO HOOK UP FOR AC.
> I AM IN BJ ABOUT 6 TO 8 YEARS, OFF AND ON. UP AND DOWN.
> LATELY I GOT SO MUCH HEAT IN AC.

So let me get this straight: You're a complete stranger who wants to gamble with my money (at bad games no less), and if I'm seen with you it will bring me heat too. Luckily I'm on the west coast!

The only thing dumber than me trusting you with my money is YOU trusting ME with YOURS! If you have 6 to 8 years experience you should already have people you trust who you can play with. YOU SHOULD NOT TRUST ME.

I hate to sound like a jerk, but you should be MUCH more careful with your bankroll, as well as the people you meet on the internet. Don't be surprised if nobody else answers your post. It's nothing personal, we just are very guarded people by nature. Best of luck to you in finding some teammates.

-Sonny-

Re: LOOKING FOR PARTNERS IN MARYLAND
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Mar-2004 11:26:01 (#6956)

I agree with Sonny as heat goes up exponentially with the number of people working together. AC is lenient with counters so if you are getting heat there you are going to get much more than heat playing in most other places. Violence from the casino is more legend than reality but it does exist so whatever it is you are doing, you run the risk of getting yourself or anyone you team with hurt.

There isn't enough added benefit to team play to make it worth taking any risk for it. All you need is one jerkoff on a team to have a disaster. No disrespect intended, but that jerkoff could be you. What you need to do is work on your act and your style of play so that you won't get yourself in trouble at the table. Once you can play in AC with no heat, you can then work your way out to better games in other places, that are more profitable but better protected.

Tresspassing Laws?
Posted by justin on 02-Mar-2004 01:33:20 (#6946)

ON my first trip to Vegas I didn't know what I was doing and got kicked out of the Mirage. On the way out, the guy was telling me that I was also not allowed at MGM, Bellagio, and other MGM chain casinos. I heard that since they're private property and I only got kicked out of the Mirage, that I can legally go back to MGM, Bellagio and others except Mirage. I still play MGM, Bellagio and others, except the Mirage, using different ID's with different names but I just want to be sure in the future if the suits come for me at MGM or Bellagio.

PS. if i do get caught for trespassing, anybody know what will happen? or if they catch me with a fake id?

Patriot Act
Posted by SammyBoy on 02-Mar-2004 09:39:24 (#6950)

The fake id could get you into a big mess. They could probably detain you for a long period of time and get the FBI involved, especially if you have lots of cash on you. I have absolutely no experience with this, but I'm just warning you of the possibilities.

Re: Patriot Act
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Mar-2004 10:50:01 (#6952)

I agree, falsified government issued ID is asking for trouble, especially in LV where the police function as agents of the casinos. It's unlikely that a court will find you guilty of anything if you use a fake ID only to deceive a casino into letting you play a legal game. If you want a player's card with a different name, you'd be better off paying some homeless guy $20 to go in and get a player's card for you under his name. If a fake ID is used, make sure there is some way to document that you've used it only for adventures in card counting and nothing else.

Good God, what did you have to do to get trespassed from Strip casinos? Generally they're going to any-game-but-blackjack you long before they do that. I'd wait a year before going back to those places, there are enough other places in town to play for a year.

ANYONE IN MARYLAND ? FOR PARTNER
Posted by JOHN C. on 02-Mar-2004 02:05:15 (#6947)

LOOKING FOR PARTNERS,IN MARYLAND.

Re: ANYONE IN MARYLAND ? FOR PARTNER
Posted by BlackJackHack on 02-Mar-2004 12:06:03 (#6959)

I'm in the DC area. I'm not necessarily looking for a partner, but am interested in meeting other APs.

Re: ANYONE IN MARYLAND ? FOR PARTNER
Posted by JOHN C. on 05-Mar-2004 15:28:07 (#7001)

EMAIL ME AT (JOHNH372@NETZERO.NET)

Re: ANYONE IN MARYLAND ? FOR PARTNER
Posted by SNOWBANK on 04-Mar-2004 16:51:44 (#6992)

Hi,

I am close to Atlantic City and would be interested in partnering with you. Please e-mail me at snowbank101@yahoo.com Thanks

tournament play
Posted by mr G on 02-Mar-2004 06:00:56 (#6948)

Where I live there is a bj tournament that has a silly way of getting to the final four participants. Play starts with 6 tables of 7. The next round consists of the top 21 money winners regardless of what table they came from. The next round of 3 tables of 7 players then yields the top 4 in money winners, also regardless of which table.

My question is: would it be reasonable in this type of tourney to, say, bet half of the start amount (you begin w/$500.00) on the first play? If you win the first play, then bet $5.00 on each additional hand. (I should say there are 21 hands dealt and the entry cost is just $10.00). If you lose the first hand, then try to make up the deficit. What I am thinking, is if you win the first hand with this type of set up, you would be practically guaranteed of making it to round two. Any ideas??

Kind of depends.....
Posted by phantom007 on 02-Mar-2004 15:35:00 (#6966)

...on what the other players do and/or are already doing. Off the top, you will expect to win 44% of the time. I suspect it would be better to wait for a good TC situation (if the game lasts long enough to develop same). Presume you want to get out front early, so as to pressure the rest of the players into suboptimal bets. However, 21 hands is ample time for ploppies to DD 16 v. Ace, and of course, go on to round 2, while you hit the nickle slots.

phantom007.

Please fill out a profile ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Management on 02-Mar-2004 14:19:48 (#6965)

If you are a frequent poster, please fill out a profile so that you can post without having your posts moderated.

Can they keep you from cashing your chips?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Mar-2004 18:10:22 (#6972)

I'm preparing for a trip to Tunica. Now from what I've heard, MS casinos are quicker than most to read someone the trespass act thus backoffs and barrings are likely to be more hostile, just because law enforcement and threats of arrest are involved.

Now suppose I've been doing my thing, and I have $1500 in chips in front of me, and security comes over and tells me "You are no longer welcome in this casino, you must leave immediately and never return, or we will have you arrested for trespassing." I answer "OK, you won't have to ask me twice." and I head over to the cashier's cage to cash out. They say "No, we said 'Leave', not 'Go to the cashier's cage'. The door is that way." as they stand between me and the cashier and point towards the door.

Can they / have they / would they do that? I know that gaming chips represent a debt and in a court they would ultimately have to pay up, but they probably can bar me from the premises and make it impossible to have my cheques honored without expensive legal action. And I play alone so I can't send a partner in to cash them. What's the procedure should this situation ever come up? Thanks.

Re: Can they keep you from cashing your chips?
Posted by wong out on 02-Mar-2004 21:57:17 (#6974)

Leave asap when barred; dont cash in your chips unless you are into posing for the camera.

Come back later and cash out; if 1500 gets a call to the pit then come back 2-3 times or go to 2-3 windows.

you will often be suprised at the level of incompetance you will find working the casinos (and eleswhere).

Re: Can they keep you from cashing your chips?
Posted by SammyBoy on 03-Mar-2004 08:56:31 (#6975)

If you were to have that problem you can cash the chips at any of the other casinos, either at the cage or exchange them at the tables.

Re: Can they keep you from cashing your chips?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 03-Mar-2004 10:02:22 (#6977)

When 86'ed or after a backoff, I think as a general rule it can't hurt to just stuff your pockets with your checks and head for the door a.s.a.p. Decide what to do later with your checks.

And if you really want to Piss them off....
Posted by phantom007 on 05-Mar-2004 03:48:32 (#6995)

Refuse to let them color up your chips. Leave with multiple reds, greens, etc.
This always irritates them, for some reason.

Seriously, I believe that an '86 includes a tour of the Cashier's cage, and if applicable, your hotel room.

As regarding Tunica, for me personally, literally 100's of hours of play to date has resulted in only one back-off and one Flat bet limitation, and both were professional and courteous. NEITHER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED HAD I LIMITED MYSELF TO 1 HOUR SESSIONS...OR 6 HOURS FOR THAT MATTER. Both were brought on by my characteristic camping trips!

You can cash in chips at any Tunica casino, but know that when you cash in FOREIGN CHIPS.....SMILE FOR YOUR PICTIRE!

I will be in Tunica circa. March 13-19....let me know if this is the time-frame of your trip.

phantom007.

Re: And if you really want to Piss them off....
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-Mar-2004 12:25:27 (#6999)

Yes they want to color you up because they use the blacks for their impromptu accounting.

If you're staying in the hotel, it's illegal for them to keep your stuff if they throw you out, unless you owe the hotel money that is associated with your stay at the hotel. What if you had medication up there that you couldn't get to? They'd be looking at a multimillion dollar judgment against them if that happened. I've worked in the hotel business and throwing people out of guest rooms is risky business in any circumstance. Unlike a casino it's considered a public accomodation and if someone ends up hurt, sick, or even embarrassed as a consequence of it there are numerous approaches they can take to suing you. A wise casino hotel would never evict anyone from the hotel because of something that happened on the casino floor, even if the room was comped.

But the cheques are a different story, they could make an argument that they are the casino's property, not legal tender, no cash value, etc.

I think my trip to Tunica will be later than that. Glad to hear that things are handled professionally there though.

Re: Can they keep you from cashing your chips?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 07-Mar-2004 20:57:46 (#7016)

Yes, they can keep you from cashing your chips especially if they take them. They can shoot you dead too. Either way, it's illegal. Who wants to go to court and fight them even if it's clear that their actions were illegal?

It makes me very uncomfy to put my checks on the cashiers counter just after being barred. Chances are nothing will go wrong. Do we even want to take a chance on them stealing our chips? That casino has just become a hostile environment. I still say to just get out with your chips in your pockets and figure out later how to cash or change them.

Very Good Advice! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 08-Mar-2004 11:19:17 (#7021)

How should I spread my bets with....
Posted by Vuu2002 on 03-Mar-2004 17:08:26 (#6978)

Hi everybody,
My trip session bankroll to one of my local casino is $2000. How should I spread my bets with the following conditions (using Hi-Lo)
$5 Min. to $100 max
6 deck H17 DAS 1.5 pen. & Double deck with 1 deck cut off same rules. thanks

Vuu2002

Re: How should I spread my bets with....
Posted by deZerTomB on 03-Mar-2004 22:34:38 (#6980)

Don't play the DD game with that poor penetration.

Here's an idea.

Find a crowded DD table with only 1 open spot. Squeeze in. Cash in all $2000, then flat bet $5 each hand till they get to the shuffle. When the dealer starts shuffling, say hey what's going on here I thought this was a double deck game? If I wanted to play single deck, I'd play single deck. I'm going over to wherever where they have a much better game. Color me up with thousand dollar chips. Then head straight to the cashier. Take your money & head out the door and don't go back till the penetration improves.

8+)

Another idea;

go to bj21.com & find SW's current bj news, click on the sample & find your area. Look for a decent penetration game in your area. The sample is over a year old, but it will give you an idea. If there's nothing in your area, go to vegas or laughlin.

Absolutely!!!
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 03-Mar-2004 23:28:09 (#6981)

This is something I had to come to terms with myself. If there was ever a blackjack commandment it would be this:

DON'T PLAY A BAD GAME JUST BECAUSE IT IS CLOSE TO WHERE YOU LIVE!!!!

Whew!... that felt good!.. Sorry about the screamin'!

I could re-post volumns of me ranting about this. The value of a well planned plane/hotel charter package to Las Vegas is almost always worth the time/money, no matter where you're from.

-Felix

right on.
Posted by gehrig on 04-Mar-2004 07:39:12 (#6985)

i look at far more games/tables than i play, even within clark county. obviously in the olden days when "strip rules" prevailed, you could sit in any game within your bankroll.

kinda like shopping only sales, today's 21 player has to shop. and just like the gas prices in furnace creek, lack of proximity to competitive venues usually results in poor games.

were you punters to be casino managers, why would you offer attackable 21 games/"full pay" video poker slots, when the guest would have to drive maybe a hundred miles to "shop" ? examples might be tribal or cruise ship casinos.

Here's Why.
Posted by Tom on 06-Mar-2004 19:00:51 (#7012)

"were you punters to be casino managers, why would you offer attackable 21 games/"full pay" video poker slots, when the guest would have to drive maybe a hundred miles to "shop" ? examples might be tribal or cruise ship casinos."

Example::

Family of ploppies go to sole casino stuck out in the middle of nowhere.
Family has sucker games to play. Family goes broke very quickly.
Family decides to never come back to Nowhere Land Casino.
Family would rather drive the extra mile of where the action is. Family gets bigger bang for BUCKS. Family goes home happy. Family returns for next trip.

The End

"never return" ? hah !
Posted by gehrig on 08-Mar-2004 12:28:14 (#7022)

speaking with significant experience in midwestern tribal joints...

most "ploppies" were "regulars" at these games because they were the closest games...closest by 50 or 100 miles. thus the poor game rules never seemed to deter the same, losing customers.

Yes
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 08-Mar-2004 21:39:13 (#7026)

Mountaineer Gaming Resort is by far the closest gaming venue to Cleveland, Wheeling, Pittsburg and everywhere in between. And it is without competition. Horrible, Horrible games (No tables), and it is always packed with what I am sure are repeat customers.

While I'm on the subject of Mountaineer:

There was an article in the LV Review Jounal that stated one of the reasons MTR was allowed to buy the H-Shoe is because Mountaineer turned a high profit. I wonder if this is good reasoning.

To jump to the conclusion that the place is making so much money because it is well managed, which may or may not be the case, is wrong. Last time I checked, the 3000 plus slot machines(Or...uh...I mean lottery terminals) were mandated by the lottery comission to be set between %80 and %95 payout. Also, on any given peak weekend time it can be hard to find a machine. EVERY one is in use (or, so I hear. My parents go there a lot. I always try to set them strait about the place). I can't imagine the take from something like that. I'm not sure how any management could really screw up to the point where they didn't turn a huge profit.

-Felix

You're talking "new ploppy business"
Posted by Tom on 09-Mar-2004 08:58:44 (#7033)

Sure, new ploppies pop up from anywhere. Opening up a restaurant with crappy food will also have new regular customers,this certainly dont mean they have stolen the regular customers from a good restaurant.

Post of the month!
Posted by Tom on 04-Mar-2004 03:58:15 (#6983)

And dont forget to blame the dealer for srewing up the cards, "You're messing up the flow!!"

basic strategy ingrained...now, where to play?
Posted by spazzy on 04-Mar-2004 02:00:28 (#6982)

I decided to at least give myself the best odds of losing and i memorized basic strategy. Using a couple of software programs i downloaded free, i played 6000 or so hands. Also took a deck to work with me and practiced playing three cards of the deck per round.

Anyway, I have basic strategy down COLD baby, feels good too.

Now, been planning this trip to Vegas for 6 months, staying at Venetian.

It seems like the strategy I memorized was for a 6 decker where I can double down after the split and umm.........dealer stands on soft 17.

Is it true dealers wont peak at their hole card even if they are showing an ace? will those pricks take more money from me if they dont?

Anyway, for the basic strategy i memorized, what is a good game for me to play at?

Re: basic strategy ingrained...now, where to play?
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Mar-2004 09:46:58 (#6986)

If you do not plan to count you will want to always use a players card while playing so that you will get comps. Also try to play at very full tables with slow dealers. The idea is to play as few hands per hour to cut the loss rate while trying to maximize comps.

It is great that you have memorized basic strategy, you should take the next step and learn a count. The truth is, the casinos will allow you to carry a basic strategy card with you while you play. Go to wizardofodds.com and print out the strategy cards he has online for the different playing conditions you may encounter.

Be sure to stay away from any 6:5 single deck BJ tables and Super Fun 21. Oh, if the dealer does not peek at his hole card, you will not lose double downs or splits when he has BJ. Only bet lost is the original wager. Now some clubs overseas that have ENHC (European No Hole Card) will take all bets if the dealer has BJ, but I don't know of any in the states that use this rule.

Good luck!

Re: basic strategy ingrained...now, where to play?
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Mar-2004 10:01:28 (#6987)

The las Vegas Club in the morning from 6 am until 11 am. Play for the benifit of seeing how fast your ability to make the correct decision is. Try and get heads up and play fast very fast. All the while keeping track of your win/loss. Watch out for the Pit critters and see how they do business. This is agreat game. One of the best in vegas. They are sweaty and pounce on cardc counters quickly. Its a great place to learn about casino caportment. If you can play and have a good time talking and joking then you need to perfect your counting abilities. Have fun!

Re: basic strategy ingrained...now, where to play?
Posted by MrPill on 04-Mar-2004 12:03:40 (#6988)

Spazzy,

If your going to Vegas you don't want to pass up any good SD games you may see downtown so learn the BS changes. The changes in BS with these games in which you cannot double after splits is in some of the splits that you learned.

If no DAS then BS changes would be:
- Don't split 4's
- Split 6's with dealer 3 thru 6 up.
- Split 2's & 3's with dealer 4 thru 7 up.

Other than that your BS will be the same.

And as Sammy sayz above, stay away from those games with the 6:5 payout and Superfun 21. And stay to playing with as many other people that you can find at the table. This will cut your hands per hour down while optimizing your comp calculation time.

Pill

Re: basic strategy ingrained...now, where to play?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 04-Mar-2004 16:54:44 (#6993)

The game at the Venetian is decent, but not the best on the Strip. That was the first place I ever counted! Caesar's has better rules for a BS player, as do a few other houses.

I noticed you didn't mention counting, so you're just interested in playing BS for comps? Well then you might as well play at the place you are staying. They have great hamburgers at the little resturant that's adjacent to the casino floor at the Venetian, worth getting comped for sure.

Re: basic strategy ingrained...now, where to play?
Posted by spazzy on 06-Mar-2004 00:13:56 (#7006)

gee, thanx a lot. Since our last post, I got bored of basic strategy and moved on to Hi/Lo counting techniques.

I still haven't found the matrix yet to layer on top of my basic strategy for when i get low counts (i switched hi to low and low to hi, seems more intuitive for me that way)......

Now I guess im on the lookout for good 6 deck games with low minimums and good penetration....any suggestions?

Oh yeah, had my wife and father in law dealing out hands to me while i played one and counted the rest (that wife played) father in law was dealer. I was basically missing the running count by +/- one through 2-3 decks average. But if I was ever in doubt I erred on the dealers advantage side.

Anyway...what now?

Re: basic strategy ingrained...now, where to play?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Mar-2004 11:24:06 (#7014)

Go to http://www.skister.com/bj for a list of playing conditions around the country. Pick a town, run some sims using the games and rules they have available, and jump right in. It's that simple.

I do the same thing as you do with the count. It's easier for me to remember that seeing a high card makes the count higher and a low card makes it lower so I reverse it too. Just don't forget this if you are reading or writing any BJ commentary.

Also, the most dangerous thing you can do is reverse the sign of the count! You are tired and thinking... "+6, +7, -8, -7, -6, -7" see what can happen?

I use an ace sidecount with letters for the aces, so I am thinking "-1a, 0a, +1a, +1b, +2b" and I picture the "text" of the count rather than the sound, in my head. This makes it easier for me to talk and count at the same time, very important in the real world. You have to look and act like everyone else at the table or you will be discovered and ejected from the game.

i need same help
Posted by el cabecon on 04-Mar-2004 12:09:52 (#6989)

hello everybody....i do not anderstent same things and i need help
i do not andersent why standart divition is so important, and
who you find the standart divition. for exampl, i have 14000 euros
tou play,and im thiking to play 2 hours per day/ 40 hours per munth
for 10 munths/ and max bet 60/70 euros,eupopean rules.

what is my standart divition? and who you find it ??

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#6990)

Why open a can of rotten worms?
Posted by Antonio Scarpele on 05-Mar-2004 02:51:39 (#6994)

Stealth and the few others that are attempting to make us card counters somehow go public with demands and rules about blackjack by trying to create a disturbance within the casinos and gaming co. You guy's will only be giving us card counters a bad rap,that's all.

Nobody gives a damn about our game,not even the ploppies. We are a very SMALL minority and certainly dont want to open up a big can of public worms appearing as if we're all over the place making threats.

WE choose to remain the silent needle in a haystack that pokes and pricks at casinos with a small mouth, not a BIG one. If a casino accidently kicks out a ploppy or card counter for winning too much money then it's by their own stupidity,life goes on,and so do we.

You dont want to give us a worse reputation than we already have,do you?

Antonio Scarpele

Re: Why open a can of rotten worms?
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Mar-2004 11:16:41 (#6996)

Interesting to post these thoughts here ... you may not know that I am 100% in favor of player's rights. My podiums often argue that advantage players should have full playing rights in casinos, and I have often spoken about the benefits this potentially has for casinos if they use us as part of their marketing.

This issue is certainly divisive, but one thing you should know, the top players are not the least bit threatened by this. The best games are not going to be ruined by turning every last BJ game in Las Vegas into an 8 deck shoe with 60 penetration. And those players who don't know what I mean by this last sentence will get what they get, and that's fine too.

--Mayor

Re: Why open a can of rotten worms?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 05-Mar-2004 11:37:23 (#6998)

Certainly valid concerns A. S.. At least we finally got you thinking and talking about it.

It�s not just about card counters. It�s about reversing the declining conditions and keeping all the games more fair to all who play them.

The big questions are: 1) Can it be done with success? 2) Will we lose ground in the attempt? 3) What is the cost? 4) What does everyone stand to gain as a result?

A.S., I believe the few others you mentioned are noted below. Some are showing more interest than others. Maybe they will clarify their intent and beliefs. Keep in mind that we are still just testing some ideas here. Nobody�s doing anything yet.

Chappy
Stealth Bomber
Golden
misfitcounter
LVBear584
AK(s)
blue eved samurai
Rob McGarvey
OldCootFromVA
Kool
Mini-me

I certainly value the opinions of all my friends here at cc.com. Let us hear your thoughts, concerns, opinions, etc.

Thanks:

Stealth B

Re: Why open a can of rotten worms?
Posted by Scarpele on 05-Mar-2004 20:10:17 (#7004)

You're talking about fair games? If you cant buck a typical -.5 blackjack edge that casinos have,then you need to improve your own game,not the casinos.

You say you want the game to be fair for ploppies also,what's fair a 0% edge? They would still figure out a way to lose.

Carnival games come and go,it's been like this for years,Golden Nugget has already done away with all 6/5 blackjack. Casinos are always testing the water with new fruitloops. When ploppies get tired of playing them because of losing too much money,casinos get rid of the games.

In the real world there are only a handfull of pro card counters that are a threat,casinos know this,we're just needles in a haystack.

"The big questions are:

1) Can it be done with success?

Unlikely.

2) Will we lose ground in the attempt?

Very likely

3) What is the cost?

If you and Mayor want to try and change your world,you can higher about 10 thousand ploppies to pose as pro card counters who are barred and have them march in the streets of Vegas with picket signs saying "WE DESEVRE TO PLAY!" "NO MORE 6/5 BLACKJACK!!" "95% PENN!!" and so forth.

4) What does everyone stand to gain as a result?

Absolutely nothing.

Is it really just a can of rotten worms?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 08-Mar-2004 21:55:36 (#7027)

Scarpele, you�re so negative on the issue. I�ll take what you said as a vote �AGAINST�, but I appreciate your showing of your interest and concerns. Maybe in the future, you will have a different perspective.

Okay, as for the rest of you guys, it�s not really all that frightening is it? It�s not either pro life or pro choice. It�s not gun control either. It�s just; �FOR�, �AGAINST� or �UNCERTAIN�.

It�s quite a simple idea: We reward the casinos that are good and we penalize the casinos that are bad. It�s based on their gaming rules, comps, service and treatment of the patrons. It�s all done very professionally through different forms of media, ie. billboards, internet sites/newsletters, magazines, flyers, picketing. It will take some wizardry, $ and effort for its success. This is not about card counters trying to force the casinos into having to do what ever us card counters want.

I have stuck my foot into the water and it�s not so bad . My take is; if it�s done properly, it will be successful. Come on, who are our fearless leaders? We want to hear from you. :-)

we often tend to shoot for the foot
Posted by John Lewis on 09-Mar-2004 08:37:09 (#7032)

I agree that we true blackjack enthusiasts are best served by being as unobtrusive and inconspicuous as possible.

I feel, in fact, that we hurt ourselves merely by many of our posts on blackjack sites. Cellini tells us that casino personel read these sites habitually.

We really do not significantly hurt casinos, in my opinion. But we tend to brag about wins more than we report losses, so we give casino personnel readers a falsely elevated sense of the real threat we pose. Often the impression is given that the game is easy to beat. That, if you can count, winning is a sure thing, and the money just flows. And many posters are gratuitously hostile and insulting to casino personnel. Wonder why they in turn are hostile towards us?

By these types of communication we doubtlessly contribute to the deterioration of game conditions.

Where to retire?
Posted by marathon slim on 05-Mar-2004 11:25:31 (#6997)

Retirement is slowly coming my way. My question is:

Retire to Tucson (near the kids and grandkids) or

to Vegas?

We are leaning towards Tucson and keep Vegas a little thrill instead of a daily grind.

Re: Where to retire?
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Mar-2004 15:23:24 (#7000)

There are more water concerns in Tucson than in Vegas --

There are more scorpions in Tucson (there are a LOT of scorpions in Tucson) --

But, the surrounding area is much more beautiful in Tucson --

In LV, we could all visit you --

--Mayor

Re: Where to retire?
Posted by marathonslim on 05-Mar-2004 16:19:12 (#7002)

The last time you visted me you yelled at me because I screwed up a basic strategy move. But that is okay. I won't do that again. Thanks.

Re: Where to retire?
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Mar-2004 16:47:13 (#7003)

Hey I agree with the Mayor coach! If you retire in Vegas I could come and stay with you. Heck the whole team would be there!!!!! Arizona sucks! Viva Las Vegas! I hate scorpions. I married two of em!

Re: The Card Counter's Retirement Plan
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-Mar-2004 21:58:41 (#7005)

Play SD at $100, Hi-Opt II, spread a mere 1:2, and you'll be playing a positive EV game. Will you get heat spreading 1:2, I don't know, probably not. But you will be getting comps, playing black all day is more than enough to comp your room and meals in any decent joint. So you just live in the hotel. Free food, drink and lodging. You'll make just a little bit of money, but it's not like you need a car in LV, all you have to pay for is clothes and sex and that's what your winnings are for.

Re: The Card Counter's Retirement Plan
Posted by wong out on 07-Mar-2004 12:16:06 (#7015)

I am working hard counting and working hard working so that someday I can retire and not have to work or play BJ! But if you insist - its not like you can just move into a hotel and 1-2 spread them forever. Over time your slight edge will work for you and after a while they are going to get tired of having your slum around on them rent free. I've been tossed for a 1-2 spread before (ok I got a little carried away a few times...)

wong out

Ace Sequencing
Posted by John on 06-Mar-2004 00:59:19 (#7007)

Want to know if anyone has any opinions on the subject. I am trying to learn it and am finding out just how complex the shuffle is at my local casino. I had the shuffle in my software too simplistic but was still able to track it somewhat. I ended up losing for the night, not too much though. I was hitting aces on my big bets and was pretty happy early on but sometimes I think the shuffle got the best of me. I consider an ace and any card to be a decent hand so when I have a big bet out and get a 3 and an Ace I am somewhat happy to have two chances to get a hand. I'm thinking that maybe I will look around for some more simplistic shuffles and see what I find. I was spreading $5 to 60 . 5 when it didn't need more and then 60 then 5 again. They didn't seem to have a problem with it.

Re: Ace Sequencing
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Mar-2004 16:47:28 (#7010)

Step one, learn the casino shuffle exactly.

Step two, get six decks of cards, arrange them in some sort of order to ease your learning curve, and then do the Casino shuffle. T

If you see xyzA put into the discard tray, then typically after the shuffle you will see something like: x.y.z.A (where . is an unknown card or block of cards). See if this kind of pattern arises. But, you only need to follow a few cards before the ace. No more than that!

Step three, try this exercise several times and see if you can predict the aces better than 1 in 13. If so, you might have something for some shufflers under some ideal circumstances.

Absolutely and under no circumstances should you practice sequencing in a live casino. You could lose a lot of money this way. Know what you are doing before you begin.

--Mayor

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7008)

Yes, at least this one is.
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Mar-2004 16:38:51 (#7009)

If you post a link and don't anything then what do you expect?

This story is already well known, but we appreciate you posting the link. However without your thoughts or opinions alongside the link, there really isn't much to say.

So, tell us what you think.

--Mayor

Re: Are my posts boring or what ? Please tell me !
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 07-Mar-2004 22:06:20 (#7017)

Not really. I think most of us like myself already read this article.

I do think we should watch this case to the end. If he wins, it may set a precedent and subsequently provide us the help we'll need in a similar future legal challenge.

Sometimes the D shows your first card in advance
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 07-Mar-2004 22:31:56 (#7018)

Scenario staged as follows:

You are the player at a shoe game. You're on first base for whatever reason. The D is sloppy with the cards and inadvertently you notice that the first card you're going to receive is gonna be an ace. The TC is zero. Your bet off the top has most often been minimum. The table limit is $25 - $2000 and your bank roll is $20K.

How much is your bet going to be?

What if the situation was the same as above and you knew you were going to receive a face card as you're first card?

Bet $2000.00 on either the Ace or the face
Posted by LVBear584 on 08-Mar-2004 00:18:57 (#7019)

The Ace as your first card gives you about a 52% advantage, the face card about 13%. Because of the small bankroll, whether the bankroll is replenishable or not, and depending on your risk tolerance, you may wish to bet less on the face. But to bet less than the max you can get down with a known Ace coming is foolish. The EV in this situation is far greater than many, many hours of grinding with a small bankroll.

I once had a free ace coupon on which the max bet was the table max of $500.00, because of an error by a casino marketing department. I bet the $500.00, and got the $750.00 blackjack.

Re: Bet $2000.00 on either the Ace or the face
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 08-Mar-2004 09:29:56 (#7020)

Thank you. I was sure about the ace but not the 10. Only other thing is to somehow present the right act so as to not appear as though I saw the card. Laying 2 grand quickly on the table for a 'paper play' can bring on a lot of suspicion on the part of the pit crew. I can assume that if they think I saw the card, they could choose to burn 3 cards instead of 1.

What about 9,8,...
Posted by V-man on 12-Mar-2004 15:04:04 (#7099)

Like SB, I knew we had an advantage on 10, but didn't know how much exactly.
What about 9 or even 8? I don't think there is any advantage on 8?

About low-limit poker (hold'em)
Posted by Sheldon on 08-Mar-2004 15:43:51 (#7023)

I'm sorry for this post, if it against the rule of this forum. Cauz this is about poker. My local casino has a low-limit pocker room. I was wondering if I should switch to that game, because the casino is phasing in continuesly shuffling machine. Sooner or later, there will be nothing attract me in BJ tables.
Somebody said: statistically, you'll be a loser for lower-limit hold'em, giving a situation that your opponents are average players. Is that true ?
Any comments

Re: About low-limit poker (hold'em)
Posted by The Mayor on 08-Mar-2004 19:23:07 (#7024)

>My local casino has a low-limit pocker room. I was wondering if I should switch to that game, because the casino is phasing in continuesly shuffling machine. Sooner or later, there will be nothing attract me in BJ tables.

Bad idea.

>Somebody said: statistically, you'll be a loser for lower-limit hold'em, giving a situation that your opponents are average players. Is that true ?

Yes, this is true. The rake at low limit is about 10%-12% at most local casinos ($3 per hand + toke + jackpot rake). This will kill you if you are excellent and they are average. At best in a $4-$8 game you will make a very tiny long term profit, but most likely you will lose.

Poker only pays if you are a very good player playing at a game that has a small rake (e.g. Vegas games), or if you bonus hussle online poker.

Visit www.twoplustwo.com for more (and much better) information.

Mayor....Possibly Disagree.....
Posted by phantom007 on 08-Mar-2004 19:45:46 (#7025)

The Poster said that his local casino was going to CSM's. If so, then would not his BEST BET (besides not playing at all...not a good option IMHO...hehehe), be either a decent VP game and/or Regular Poker???

Certainly, at least in theory, CSM's can be beaten AT FULL TABLES, based on the "Those cards cannot come out again, can they(?) theory". Looks good on my computer screen....may or may not play out in practice.

I did think it was wierd how this Poster could not spell SH#T initially, but then became very eloquent (sp?) in the final paragraph.

Damn...am I paranoid???

phantom007.

Re: About low-limit poker (hold'em)
Posted by John on 08-Mar-2004 22:49:40 (#7028)

If you can handle the 10/20 table, go for that. Those 4/8 tables are bad. Too much rivering. You lose two pairs to people going for those flushes on the river. You also have people who play nearly every hand so you see a lot of crazy things happen like guys getting 3 full houses and 2 flushes inside of one hour.

Re: About low-limit poker (hold'em)
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Mar-2004 01:18:01 (#7029)

Bad Advice.

Learn how to properly play low limit hold em. The rake is probably 5% and capped at $5. You don't HAVE to tip the dealer.

"If you can handle the 10/20 table, go for that."
Learn to play first. GOOD players are at the 10/20.

"Those 4/8 tables are bad. Too much rivering."
Learn that the game is played with 7 cards, not 6.

"You lose two pairs to people going for those flushes on the river."
GREAT! If I have 2 pair, I hope they go for the flush on the river. They will make it 1 out of 4 times -- I win the other 3 times.

"You also have people who play nearly every hand"
DARN! You mean people will be donating a few chips into EVERY pot, no matter what they have? How Terrible!

"so you see a lot of crazy things happen like guys getting 3 full houses and 2 flushes inside of one hour."
And in that hour, a good player will have played 5 hands or so, hopefully one of those full houses or flushes are his.

Re: About low-limit poker (hold'em)
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Mar-2004 01:21:49 (#7030)

I'm making about $10 an hour in $3/$6 games (with a horribly high rake).
Just like finding good conditions in blackjack -- find poor players in poker, or don't play. But first, you have to learn how to play and how to beat bad players.

More on Hold Em Poker
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Mar-2004 16:43:26 (#7041)

Does any one remember the Howard Stern Show at the Hard Rock for the SuperBowl a year or two back? How a guy was going to play 1 BJ hand for a million dollars or something like that? Then for weeks before on the show they discussed BAD blackjack strategy ...

Well, recently Howard had some guys on the show promoting some Texas Hold Em Poker stuff.

Howard Stern and his Gang were giving the opinion that any 2 suited was a good starting hand, even specifically mentioning 5 2 suited.

Some other advice was to stay in with any pocket pair, even deuces, no matter how much betting there was preflop, ***cause you never know***, a deuce could come on the flop.

I think he even complained about a hand from his Friday game where he folded 92 preflop (OMG!), only to see two 2's on the flop.

How would you like to have these guys sitting at your poker table? If not Howard, then one of his thousands of listeners, ready to call your pre-flop raise with 9 2 because "you never know".

With the amount of idiots jumping on the Texas Hold Em band wagon, poker is now a definitive advantage play.

How To Do It:

1) Find the fish at the tables, much like you find the blackjack dealer giving the good pen. Watch out for the Sharks, just like you avoid the fake double deck games.

2) Know the correct basic starting hands down cold, then maybe even tighten it up a tweak or two.

3) Play "Basic Strategy", ABC Poker. If you got it, BET. If you don't, FOLD. Raise when you got the NUTS.

The fish will call along and pay you off, time and time again. No need for fancy semi-bluffs, or mind games, or any of that other 'expert' stuff. 1-2-3 above will get the job done WITH THE RIGHT PLAYERS.

Re: More on Hold Em Poker
Posted by Count Luckula on 09-Mar-2004 18:28:12 (#7046)

>Does any one remember the Howard Stern Show at the Hard Rock for the SuperBowl >a year or two back? How a guy was going to play 1 BJ hand for a million >dollars or something like that? Then for weeks before on the show they >discussed BAD blackjack strategy ...
>
>Well, recently Howard had some guys on the show promoting some Texas Hold Em >Poker stuff.
>
>Howard Stern and his Gang were giving the opinion that any 2 suited was a good >starting hand, even specifically mentioning 5 2 suited.
>
>Some other advice was to stay in with any pocket pair, even deuces, no matter >how much betting there was preflop, ***cause you never know***, a deuce could >come on the flop.
>
>I think he even complained about a hand from his Friday game where he folded >92 preflop (OMG!), only to see two 2's on the flop.
>
>How would you like to have these guys sitting at your poker table? If not >Howard, then one of his thousands of listeners, ready to call your pre-flop >raise with 9 2 because "you never know".
>
>With the amount of idiots jumping on the Texas Hold Em band wagon, poker is >now a definitive advantage play.

He had Robert Varkonyi on the phone this morning, if that tells you anything. Maybe Moneymaker will grace us with some wisdom next.

Poker has gotten huge recently and there are definitely many fish in the sea, but I can't see the point of trying to earn money at low-stakes poker at a B&M casino. The rakes are high and the dealers are slow. The rake will eat into your earnings, and having to play super tight against clowns who will play any cards frankly bores me out of my mind. Online, you will find lower rakes, and with a little practice, you should be able to play at least 10 times as many hands per hour. If you're just learning, you will also find lower minimums, and how can you beat the convenience of playing from your own home?

If high-stakes or big-bet poker is your game, it's a different story.

Re: More on Hold Em Poker
Posted by CougIt on 11-Mar-2004 01:40:43 (#7074)

Besides the obvious, any advice for the 6 person online tables?

Re: More on Hold Em Poker
Posted by Count Luckula on 11-Mar-2004 10:59:10 (#7079)

>Besides the obvious, any advice for the 6 person online tables?

Not sure what's considered obvious, but in short-handed games you are able to play more starting hands, and when you see potential draws on the board, you can expect people to hit less often. Depending on the other players, more aggressive play is usually in order, and in a limit game, it is a little less likely that the pot will get so large so quickly it will be right for people to call long-shot draws. You're more likely to be able to make sure that they aren't getting proper odds.

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7031)

Re: About low-limit poker (hold'em)
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Mar-2004 09:12:32 (#7034)

A good book would be "Winning Low Limit Hold Em" by Lee Jones.
It goes thru all the situations before and after the flop.
Top pair with no kicker, Top pair good kicker, middle pair. flop trips or full house?
Two cards higher than any other on the board? 4 to a flush?

But are you really playing correctly? Let's take an example hand like King/Ten.
Most players would call this a good hand. They would throw in a bet to see a flop with it.

How I play KT: If I am 1 or 2 spots away from posting the big blind (early position) KT gets mucked before the flop just like it was 72o. If there are about as many people betting before me as after me (mid-position), I will play KT if it is suited. If they aren't the same suit, it gets mucked just like it was an Eight and a Three. If I am on the button, or 1 or 2 off (late position), I will play KT UNLESS a good player in early position has bet or it has come raised to me.

So there is a good hand that most players play all the time, any position. I probably fold it 80% of the time without a bet.

If you check your game for little 'leaks' like this (ante up before the flop on hands that really should be folded, making that one more bet after the flop instead of the folding to see the turn card) You will find yourself in a more profitable situation more often.

Then you can start working on knowing when and how to raise pre-flop, raising or check/raising the turn, when to raise and re-raise the river, etc. to really start extracting those extra bets and make a profit.

Repost from www.bj21.com
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Mar-2004 13:26:20 (#7036)

The following was posted by Al Rogers on www.bj21.com on their "Green Pages". I am reposting it with permission:

-----------------------------------------------------------

Better Blackjack Bureau -- educating the public -- Al Rogers -- 19 February 04, 3:13 p.m

-----------------------------------------------------------

DO NOT PLAY BLACKJACK THAT PAYS ONLY 6 TO 5

Most visitors to casinos play blackjack or other games for entertainment, and do not thoroughly study the games. While there is always a chance of winning in the short run, it has been said that the built-in casino advantage is the �price of the entertainment� for the recreational player. But with the 6/5 short payoffs on blackjacks, the price is too high.

Let�s assume you go to a movie once a month, and pay $8.00 for a ticket. Suddenly, the theatre increases its ticket price to $64.00. Would you still go to that theatre, when other similar theatres would charge you only $8.00? Or would you take your business to one of the $8.00 theatres? By playing single deck blackjack that pays only 6 to 5 on blackjacks, you are doing the same thing as patronizing the $64.00 theatre.

The casinos are taking unfair advantage of the myth among casual blackjack players that �single deck games always offer better odds for the players.� This is simply NOT true with the 6 to 5 game. Normal blackjacks pay 7 � to 5, or more commonly referred to as 3 to 2. The house advantage on a normal single deck game is 0.18%. The 6 to 5 game has a house advantage of 1.45%, more than eight times the advantage the casino has on a normal single deck game

The house edge in a normal six-deck shoe is about 0.63%, much worse for the player than a normal single deck, but not nearly as bad as the single deck 6 to 5 ripoff game.

This isn't merely a matter of shuffling incomprehensible numbers around. Stanford Wong, author of Professional Blackjack, explains: "The math is easy. If the player gets paid 3/2 on a blackjack on a $10 bet, the player gets paid $15. If the player gets paid 6/5 on a $10 bet, he gets paid only $12 for a blackjack. That is a difference of $3, which might not seem like much. During a normal-speed blackjack game, the player averages five blackjacks per hour, meaning the player is shorted 1.5 bets per hour. In the case of a $10 bettor, he is being shorted $15 per hour!" (Las Vegas Weekly, 10/23/03)

UNLV professor Bill Thompson, who studies gaming issues, said, " This is incredibly stupid. Everybody knows blackjacks pay 3-2. Unless they're giving out free bottles of whiskey to everyone who sits down at the table, I don't know why anybody would play this game." (Las Vegas Sun, 11/13/03)

---------------------------------------------------------------
(page two, or back side of handout)

OTHER BLACKJACK GAMES TO AVOID

Continuous shuffling machines

These nasty devices require the dealer to insert the used cards from each round back into the machine, instead of using a discard tray as is normally done. The effect is that of playing against a virtually infinite deck. Every round is played �off the top of the deck,� when there is a 100% chance that the unskilled player is at a severe disadvantage. Also, because there is never a break for shuffling, the machine increases the speed of the game by about 20%, so the typical player will lose 20% more money in the same amount of playing time, or lose all of his or her money 20% faster.

Fake double deck or fake single deck games

The dealer will hold one or two decks in his or her hand, but it is really a five to eight-deck game being shuffled every deck or less. There usually is a sign on the table that reads �Hand-Held Multi-Deck Game,� though the casino will frequently try to hide the sign behind ashtrays or other objects on the table.

Superfun 21

This is the only game among the four discussed herein that can be beaten by a skilled advantage player. However, it takes an entirely different set of strategy numbers and plays than does normal blackjack. The house advantage is .94%, if using Superfun 21 basic strategy. If played like normal blackjack, it is much worse.

Frequently dealers and pit personnel will lie, telling an unsuspecting tourist that this game can be played �like regular blackjack,� but it cannot. If this game is played like regular blackjack, expect to lose and lose very quickly.

JUST SAY NO TO ANY AND ALL OF THESE RIPOFF GAMES. DO NOT PLAY.

This information presented as a public service by www.BJ21.com, the leading source of blackjack information.

Re: Repost from www.bj21.com
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 09-Mar-2004 14:15:22 (#7037)

Maybe I should be posting this on Green Chip, but while I'm here...

This flyer contains Al Rogers name and a link to BJ21. Flyers can be annoying and I'm sure even illegal.

When Al Rogers posted this on GC there were a few reasonable responses concerning it's length, and then some people started arguing and I lost interest in the thread. Was it ever established if or how this thing should be distributed? Maybe this deserves some clarification.

Thanks,
-Felix

Re: Repost from www.bj21.com
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Mar-2004 14:29:40 (#7038)

Have you ever been to the Strip? You have people pushing Porn Flyers in your face every 10 feet. A blackjack flyer illegal?

OH wait a minute... We are talking about Las Vegas, and Ashcroft is still Atty. General, and the Patriot Act is ...

Nevermind. Forget I said anything.

Re: Repost from www.bj21.com
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 09-Mar-2004 15:09:03 (#7039)

Is all the litter created by those people flyering hookers legal?, or just tolerated? I don't think it would be a good idea to illegaly distribute something with "Al Rogers" and "BJ21" printed on it. Even if it's tolerated.

I know for sure I'm not going to be SEEN distributing them. But I would help in some inconspicuous, legal and tasteful way. I am just uncertain how to do this.

-Felix

Re: Repost from www.bj21.com
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Mar-2004 15:57:04 (#7040)

No, it isn't "tolerated". I am sure all those large Corporations that own casinos would love to get rid of the porn hustlers, especially when they were on the "family-friendly place to bring the kids" Vegas kick. I think they have tried in the past, and got hit with freedom of speech type lawsuits.

The under the dome downtown is lacking the porn because they managed to jump thru some legal hoops and technically it is quasi-private property belonging to the Freemont Street Experience organization.

Although this has been fought, I think some religious groups would like to set up camp right in the middle of Fremont Street and tell you about how gambling is a sin or some such.

Like I said, public property in America, there are still some feeble remains of some things like Freedom of the Press, Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Assembly.
Give the politicians time, another Patriot Act should remove these last roadblocks to total Corporate control.

Re: Repost from www.bj21.com
Posted by deZerTomB on 09-Mar-2004 17:54:16 (#7042)

there was some bible thumpers with signs at fremont last week or so, I didn't think much of it.

A billboard ought to do it, "I won $2000 legally at where ever & was told to never come back.

Re: Repost from www.bj21.com
Posted by deZerTomB on 09-Mar-2004 18:00:32 (#7043)

They offer 6:5 single deck because people will play it. Maybe a billboard that says the house edge is 8 times greater in 6:5 single deck, educate the poor ploppies.

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/8062357.htm

Billboards are expensive *LINK*
Posted by Al Rogers on 09-Mar-2004 18:01:20 (#7044)

$90,000.00 to buy one, $1,000.00 per month to lease it, in a location well away from the Strip.

Flyers at FSE
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 10-Mar-2004 06:37:27 (#7052)

I read somewhere that the porn slappers, et al have won the right to flyer the public under the FSE canopy now. It's a nuisance, yes, but I'm not a big fan of trashing peoples civil rights over some paper advertisements. It's also my right to ignore these folks, or (as i have done to the neo-nazi bible thumpers) argue with them in public to express my opinions and assert my rights to free speech.

Re: Flyers at FSE
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Mar-2004 11:28:39 (#7054)

Well yes, leafletting in itself is protected under the First Amendment. Political and religious, and informational flyers about blackjack are permitted in all circumstances. Treating compulsive gamblers with winning BJ advice might seem like a good idea, but I've talked to some CG's about this and they claim that the game has the same destructive effect on them whether they win or lose. I doubt that this is totally true, but I'm not a CG so I'll have to take their word for it.

The porn out on the street in LV is very questionable because there are minors out there and no one has the right to present a kid with sex talk or materials. If somebody said the things printed on those flyers to a kid he'd be arrested as a pedophile because that is not part of the First Amendment. Even though I like porn and prostitution for myself, I wouldn't want to be out walking in LV with my kid and have him ask me "Daddy, what's a 'hot Asian pu55y'?"

Re: Flyers at FSE
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 10-Mar-2004 14:34:15 (#7056)

I agree that it is mostly inappropriate for minors, and I wish it were not there as much as the casinos, town officials and most of the patronage of LV wish it were not there. The point is that they (the porn peddlers) were banned, took their case to court, and won based on their rights under the Constitution. Perhaps the legislators should be concentrating on the graphic aspects of the situation and force the porn slappers to distribute the paraphenalia in sealed packets, rather than the boldfaced T&A that is displayed. Of course if Janet Jackson can show her nips "Live" to the entire world how can one expect to pass legislation to cover up soft core stuff in LV.

Don't get me wrong I agree with you, but as we pass more laws that restrict our civil rights it has a snowball effect on the way we casually disregard those rights or legislate them away in the future.

Re: Flyers at FSE
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 10-Mar-2004 22:54:58 (#7073)

I think pictures of boobs are A-O.K. I like boobs. If I had kids, I'd have no problem explaining to them what boobs were, why they are here and how they should be responsibly handled.

It's all that litter that truly offends me.

Also, since this has become a civil rights discussion, and no longer has anything to to with blackjack, I think it should continue on the other message board.

And mostly, I really wish someone would answer my original question. Because, at the risk of exposing my presence, I will be on Freemont Street in a very short period of time. And, if I can, I would love to leave a few flyers laying around.

-Thanks,

-Felix

Re: Repost from www.bj21.com
Posted by deZerTomB on 09-Mar-2004 19:02:56 (#7047)

ok, I know stealth & sun runner were talking about this on bj21.com about how to raise money & what to do with it to save the game of blackjack. here's a couple ideas.

1. Use the green chip party. Either raise dues, add voluntary donation, or take a part of the profits. Stanford Wong would need to be on board.

2. Start another web page, org and make it a non profit and treat problem gamblers. Hold a class once a week like gamblers anonymous, host a 1-800 number for problem gamblers, then the money would come from the casinos themselves in the form of taxes paid into these programs through the govt. haha.

Sounds like a lot of work. Let me know I'll be playing blackjack, if I can find a decent game,hehe.

Don't worry, competition is the key. Casinos in Miss. are using monopolistic tactics. short term profit over long term goodwill. In a few years even the players in Miss. will burn out on 6:5 after they learn the hard way. hehe.

Just my 3 cents. What were we talking about anyway?

As long as people like you & I are willing to go out of our way to find a good game of blackjack, then someone will offer it somewhere.

I'm just now discovering the outlying casinos in LV & have my sights set on mesquite & reno.

Re: Repost from www.bj21.com
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 09-Mar-2004 21:21:03 (#7048)

Thanks for reading my posts on the issue. It is however, certainly not without opposition and fear.

It�s quite a simple idea though: We reward the casinos that are good and we penalize the casinos that are bad. I think it must go both ways. It�s based on their gaming rules, comps, service and treatment of the patrons. It�s all done very professionally through different forms of media, i.e. billboards, Internet sites/newsletters, magazines, flyers, and maybe even picketing. It will take some wizardry, $ and effort for its success. Though I don't believe this can be just about us card counters trying to force the casinos into having to do what ever we desire.

How to find ROR?
Posted by ladykiller on 09-Mar-2004 18:11:57 (#7045)

I'm trying to find my percent chance of ROR given a certain number of betting units, using hi-lo full indices, six deck vegas rules, spreading from 2-3 hands,etc. I looked at qfit.com and i needed info i don't have (ie. from Schlesinger's Blackjack Attack to find expected number of winning hands/hour). Anyone know where i can compute ROR for given factors above?

Re: How to find ROR?
Posted by John on 09-Mar-2004 23:50:23 (#7050)

Have you been here?

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/refer/RevGROR.htm

It's reduces everything to the basics, I know, but its something.

I get my ROR numbers from CVCX/CVBJ.

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7049)

Re: Repost from www.bj21.com
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Mar-2004 04:23:08 (#7051)

The CSM is no disadvantage to a non-counter, but it might be good to spread the rumor that it is. Whenever I play, I mention to people that I believe those machines cheat. Already I notice that the CSM table have fewer players than the rest and the casino can't possibly like this.

The 6:5 is a problem but it isn't everywhere. On my last trip to Reno I saw it at about half of the SD games around and nowhere else. When we start seeing it in shoe we're in trouble, because then it will more to the Strip and to AC and it will become the industry standard.

But it's a good idea to let as many people as possible know that 6:5 is a ripoff. If they want to be ripped off, they should go play Spanish 21. Both games can be beaten by a counter, the 6:5 more so than the Spanish, but there is no reason to even try if there is any other game around.

Re: Repost from www.bj21.com
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 10-Mar-2004 09:40:17 (#7053)

Only under the right circumstances can a counter beat 6:5. If the table is full of people and the counter only gets two hands per shuffle, then his spread would have to be too large. Only 1 in every 4.? hands will the bet be made while the count is above zero.. If a counters EV is only $5 or less per hour while betting green, I wouldn�t consider that as �beating the game�.

A CSM is beatable too under the right circumstances. I've beat them by back-counting for hours. Playing only one hand out of about every 10. I wong in at +1.5 TC, play a hand then wong out. Then go to another table in another area and do the same.

We should just tell the average player that these games are not generally beatable under the usual circumstances.

I think the flyer is too long and should be designed only to inform Mr. & Mrs. Ploppy. Maybe, during a campaign to inform the public, we shouldn't even say anything about counters and whether or not they can beat any certain games. The ploppies of the world want to believe only that they have a good chance of beating certain games without having to be a counter. Just by mentioning �counters� in the flyer, it rains on their dream of winning even good condition games unless they are professionals.

I don�t think we should have the objective to inform the public of the need to become counters. Let�s face it, there has to be losers and ploppies are important to the industry. If everyone was a counter, there would not be a BJ game to play.

CSM hurts ploppies, too
Posted by LVBear584 on 10-Mar-2004 11:51:59 (#7055)

The CSM is no disadvantage to a non-counter, but it might be good to spread the rumor that it is.

It is a disadvantage, because it speeds the game up. The more hands per hour, the faster (or more) they lose.

Re: CSM hurts ploppies, too
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 10-Mar-2004 14:44:27 (#7057)

I have been telling CSM players that BJ has an inherent house advantage "off the top"(they all agree that this is true). Each round dealt from a CSM is "off the top", therefore you never get into an advantage situation. I generally follow that up with the "When was the last time you got a 'Hot Shoe' from a CSM?" It leaves them thinking.

Any discussion beyond that tends to become too technical for civilians, and generates an argument or leads to the inevitable "do you count?" question which I prefer to avoid.

Re: CSM hurts ploppies, too
Posted by Sohrab on 10-Mar-2004 15:25:42 (#7059)

But CSM slightly lowers house basic strategy edge, yes?

Re: CSM hurts ploppies, too
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Mar-2004 20:54:37 (#7068)

That's true it does speed up the game. It's the dealers it really hurts, physically. Shuffling is less work for them than dealing and they miss the break and chance to chat they get from the shuffle.

On the other hand, having a counter who Wongs in or out hurts the non-counters at the table probably more than the CSM hurts them, and the CSM keeps us away so the net effect might be to their benefit.

If a group of 6 BS players wanted to get together and play for comps, they could take over a table and play slow, real slow, and I'd bet that at something like the Reno -0.31% shoe games or even Strip games they could get themselves into positive EV. You get something like 25% of a BU per hour comped at a decent joint. So let's say you are playing $100, you are being paid $25 an hour in comps and paying 31 cents per hand to play. Slowing it down to 30 hands per hour which should be extremely easy for 6 players, you are losing $9.30/hr for a net profit of $15.70 per player per hour. Not bad for a bunch of BS players.

CSM's may not hurt plop's worse than a shoe.
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 10-Mar-2004 21:57:38 (#7072)

Agreed. We're there playing and taking up two hands worth of good cards otherwise we wong out and let them have the bad ones.

Ever notice how on 6D when you wong out at -6TC or worse, when you come back everyone is blaming you because you ruined the �flow� and the D just took all their $? :-)

Dealer Ignorance Of The Game
Posted by grift on 10-Mar-2004 15:23:39 (#7058)

Last night i'm sitting there looking at my hand,A-7 vs the dealers' 10 upcard.I take the hit and as she goes to deal a card to the next player she gives me a snide look and says"THAT WAS AN 18 YOU HAD"! I remained silent like i didn't have a clue. I was in the casino a total of 40 minutes and left after increasing my bankroll by 50%. It's just amazing to me how many dealers are ignorant regarding the game!

I take it you didn't catch a duce *NM*
Posted by Greasy John on 10-Mar-2004 17:11:00 (#7061)

Re: I take it you didn't catch a duce
Posted by grift on 10-Mar-2004 18:27:13 (#7065)

Greasy John-
no, i got a 9-dealer had a 10 in the hole-what a surprise!

Re: I take it you didn't catch a duce
Posted by deZerTomB on 10-Mar-2004 19:29:44 (#7067)

Insurance really screws em up.

I had about $45 out on a +6 count or so & dealer gets ace up, so I take insurance but I didn't have any singles so I put $25 in red out. Dealer turns over BJ then pushes my bet & then puts my insurance in his tray. So I say wait a minute you were supposed pay that back to me. So he calls the Pit Boss over & tells what happened & he says ok pay him. So dealer pays me my $25 in red then pays me 2 green for the insurance bet & PB goes that's right while my original bet is still out there. And no I had 19 or something,no blackjack. So I made an extra $50. Then the PB tells the dealer to shuffle up, even though there were a couple hands left. Then the dealer says he never even saw an insurance bet before, much less a winning one. hehe Normally works another game.

Re: Dealer Ignorance Of The Game
Posted by Big Cowboy on 10-Mar-2004 17:27:52 (#7062)

Another way to look at it is that if a dealer is so stupid that he/she is giving the wrong advice, then there's a good likelihood that that person won't know how a counter plays. You can play like you're an idiot to the dealer (which would be as an advantage player) and get away with all sorts of cool plays.

You guys.....
Posted by suicyco maniac on 10-Mar-2004 17:47:22 (#7064)

don't get out to play very much do you?????? I must have heard the soft 18 comment 800,000 times in my play!!!! O.K. its a bit of an over statement but still....

Re: You guys.....
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Mar-2004 21:07:06 (#7070)

Don't hit soft 18. Don't split 9's (my favorite). Don't split 10's. (This one is tougher to cover but if you are splitting 10's chances are you're having a good night.) Why'd you draw on 12 against a 4? What did you surrender for? You can't win if you don't play. Why do you insure a 14?

Fortunately the most valuable index which is stand 16 vs. X is commonly played by ploppies.

Re: You guys.....
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 11-Mar-2004 08:28:27 (#7075)

My favorite A,7 v 10 story happened in the "Trashy Castle". I signal for a hit, Dealer says "but you have 18!" I signal again D says "why you want to ruin a good hand?" Now I have flames shooting from my eyes, and I poked the table so hard I almost broke my index finger. He flips me the 3 and was so astonished he fell backwards and almost knocked over the PC rostrum behind him.
The other 2 players looked on with dropped jaws. as he flipped his hole 10 and had to pay only me. I promptly left at the shuffle as the incident attracted the attention of the entire pit.

Cover play
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 11-Mar-2004 15:27:39 (#7083)

RE: soft 18 v. 10

I promptly left at the shuffle as the incident attracted the attention of the entire pit.

I think we should just stand with soft 18 v. 9, 10 & A. The small amount of EV that we get is not worth the cover we lose. ???

Re: Cover play
Posted by revereman on 11-Mar-2004 16:18:03 (#7084)

If we are making the "wrong" play by hitting A-7 vs. 10, then that should be our cover. I don't know what the EV is either, but if you do that, why not don't split 4,4 vs. 5,6, don't split 9,9 when appropriate, always hit or don't hit 16 vs. 10, never take insurance? I doubt any AP is going to get caught because they hit A-7 vs. 10. Most AP's get caught because they hang around too long or win too much.
Reminds me fondly of the time I split 4,4 vs. 6 and the dealer gave me a real hard time (Showboat, AC). The count was fairly high so I was betting over a hundred on each hand. Made sure I bet one black, at least one green, one red, one pink, and one white on every hand. She had to break down every hand and BJ's were particularly fun. I was being a jerk and I certainly don't recommend that strategy to anyone, but it was fun at the time.

Re: Cover play
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 11-Mar-2004 18:43:22 (#7086)

I agree that if hitting S18 is considered "wrong", that is cover in itself. I find that playing the "wrong way" using I18 indices is plenty of cover at most places.
I'm not a big fan of giving up EV on intentinal misplays, I'd rather mix the bets around in neutral to slightly positive counts and give up some short EV for some cover that way. I'll take the occasional "even money" if the pit is close enough to notice.

never use cover unless indices are called for
Posted by eyesfor21 on 11-Mar-2004 23:27:20 (#7092)

Most counters cover way too much and then end up without wins,
many say but we will have longivity-NOT always the case.
The stay 17 is stupid,many players hit it,anyways
-the only cover is indices with a touch more
like hitting 13,with 5-6 showing.

Re: never use cover unless indices are called for
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 12-Mar-2004 09:18:33 (#7094)

On LV strip just north of Bally's, I hit a hard 13 v. 6 with a min green bet, C was way south so I caught a 6. D made about a 4 or 5 card 17 so I won the hand. While the D is shuffling the 2D, PC walks up and says; "Sir, we've decided not to allow you to play anymore BJ. But your welcomed to play any of our other games bla bla bla....." The other player on the table couldn't believe what he was seeing and hearing. He said, "So what did he do wrong, beat you guys out of some money"? D and PC say nothing. The guy pushes out his checks and says, "Guess I'm done too. Color me up".

I was up about $400. Maybe I played too long, about 1hr.

I like the other players reaction
Posted by Victoria on 12-Mar-2004 10:28:39 (#7095)

I have done the same thing but with perhaps more reason. (they stop one AP at the table, good chance I am next) Give that pit the insulted and shocked look of "you are throwing this player out because he won?, I think I will take my action to a real casino!" Of course they probably watched your play carefully for the past 30 minutes or so but most other players have never seen someone told no more BJ and are very surprised. Of course, if I was the one being backed off I would say little or nothing, (do not want the situation to escalate) but ploppy shock is nice.

I really do not think we pick up that much cover by playing as if we have no knowledge of basic strategy. Most of us will appear to be at least BS knowledgeable to the pit. The things mentioned like A7 hits and doubles, 99, and 44 vs 5 or 6, are BS. I think it is more important to carefully pick the times you deviate from BS. Hitting for instance a 12vs6 in a neg count might be the right move but it is at a time when you have a minimum bet out there or should have wonged out. So if I want to give up some EV for cover I tend to do it when it will cost me the least.

Re: Cover play
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 11-Mar-2004 19:34:58 (#7087)

Most AP's get caught because they hang around too long or win too much.

This is certainly true. Your points are well taken. I should have elaborated more.

I still think it is good to make the right cover plays when the right people are watching even if we give back a very slight amount of EV. The question I have is: Which plays will give us the biggest bang for the buck and allow us to appear as if we are just 'high quality' ploppies while only giving away the slightest amount of EV?

One thing is certain; if a cover play is used and the right people don't notice, we only lose $ and get nothing in return. Therefore, we only do it if we can somehow benefit and gain playing time.

I try to look like ...
Posted by Radar on 14-Mar-2004 17:11:29 (#7142)

a ploppy by pulling out my little BS card I keep in my pocket.

I tell them to hold on, act as though I am looking at it for an answer, play the hand. If I win, I say...hey, the book is right. If I lose, I say...I won't be using this thing again, or something to that effect.

You then don't have to catch heat from anyone, OR leave the table...I love my little card...grin'n

You're *supposed* to hit A-7 vs 10??!!
Posted by Feep on 10-Mar-2004 18:31:12 (#7066)

Geez, that just doesn't sound right!

(kidding)

Re: You're *supposed* to hit A-7 vs 10??!!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Mar-2004 08:41:32 (#7077)

Glad you're kidding! smile

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7060)

Re: Dealer Ignorance Of The Game
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 10-Mar-2004 17:41:01 (#7063)

While on 6D recently, I was constantly being ripped on by an idiot dealer regarding my plays such as; spliting 4/4 againt 5 or 6, doubling or hitting A/7, splitting 9/9. She kept telling me and informing the others that I was ruining the flow of the cards with my crazy plays. After a while of the verbal abuse, I decided to say something like the following:

"Do you know that the mere fact that we are even having this conversation regarding the 'flow of the cards', will forever in the future of your dealings, change what would have been the originally naturally scheduled 'flow of the cards'?" D says, "What?" I went on to say, "I'm serious, eveything you do in your life or that you encounter, affects what would have been, had you not been affected by those typical things that happen in the course of your life and at this table. So, it's not only me that is changing the flow here. Regardless of whatever happens in the shuffle or the way in which the players play, the outcome is still just random."

If the egnorance continues, I usally just shut-up and play or leave.

Re: The Flow of Life
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Mar-2004 21:02:38 (#7069)

You are right, every thing you do, including how many times you shake your tool after you take a leak upon entering the casino affects when you get into a shoe and thus affects your entire night. But it's random. Could help, could hurt.

Or maybe not. I have a 1.5 hour drive over some treacherous roads to get to my store, and I'm the kind of guy who stops to help people on the road. Helping with tires, picking up hitchhikers, directing traffic at accidents, I do it all. But I've noticed every time I've stopped to help someone on the way to the casino, I've had a losing night. Go figure.

Maybe it's Satan at work, putting these stumbling blocks in my way to make me have a losing night and thus increase the net suffering of humanity.

Or maybe it's God putting me to the test to see whether I care about my fellow man or blackjack more, and every lost hand is a victory in Heaven.

Or maybe I'm just illustrating the way a ploppy sees things! Limited trials, colored by emotion.

Re: The Flow of Life
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Mar-2004 08:36:36 (#7076)

Helping a person out is never a bad thing under most conditions. You can use your gut instinct (listen to the spirit, ID, Chi, Life Force, whatever you want to call it) or just your brain. All are tools that we need to learn to use, but more so, when to use them. That tire you changed could have saved your life, or lost it for you. Either way, you lived or died doing the right thing. I always tell people that I have helped to pass it on. Trust the math, and trust your spirit man. That is unless it's your neighbours dog speaking in tongues telling to to kill children or something. ;> Just know that if you trust the wrong things time will show you that you picked the wrong road.

Martha Stewart

logic vs religion
Posted by Victoria on 11-Mar-2004 11:25:57 (#7080)

When I refer to the FLOW is caps, it is because it is the religion of the ploppy and when you try to change their beliefs with something as ridiculous as logic or even sarcasim, the best answer you will probably get from them is something like, Duh! Let's face it, most dealers, probably the vast majority are of the ploppy mindset of voodoo. Take into consideration that with all the new casinos throughout the country, many are just new. Their job is to deal the cards, take the ploppy's money for the house and also, at the same time, bond with the ploppys for toks. They learn that by picking up the same superstitions they can be at one with the players. That said, the dealer who will verbally or visually single out a player for playing poorly or even the cardinal sin of "FLOW destruction", is a fool who would never get a cent in toks from me. Even the pit (most of them are believers also) should discipline such a dealer. I recently saw a very bad player get lectured by a dealer so harshly that she was brought to tears. This woman was flat betting $50 per hand and toking $5 after every single win, a dealers dream player and the guy drove her off the table because other players complained about her play. The pit saw and heard most of this and I would guess that the idiot dealer had a price to pay for running off a good (looser) customer.

One other thing: You can catch heat for the things mentioned or not. I have played at tables where it seemed that everyone was a near BS player. No heat on A7, or 12vs3, 99, or hit 16, but when the count determined things like stay 16, take insurance, 12vs4, or double A8, the temperature rose quickly. I generally know in a short period of time what to expect from the other players, but dealers should deal. As one critter said to a dealer who was trying to convince a guy that he had to hit 4,2 , "let the players play their hands."

Finally, always remember that more often than not, most of the players at your table will be loosing. This means that because you are a generous team player, you have chosen this time to attempt to change the FLOW for the benifit of all. I have been known to announce my attempt to better the FLOW. If I fail, well I tried.

Victoria

We must usually agree with the ignorance
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 11-Mar-2004 15:19:51 (#7082)

Well said. Thanks for the reminder. It's a little bit fun to argue a point when you know your right. Sometimes it gets really hard not to do it when the crap your getting is excessive and coming from the D.

Re: We must usually agree with the ignorance
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Mar-2004 21:37:21 (#7090)

Just tell him/her that you don't trust anyone, and since they work for the casino, chances are they are telling you crap so you'll lose so they can stand there and look like they have nobody that wants to play with them.....like the dork running the big six wheel. Then start to talk about how the B6 is the biggest rip off in the casino.

Re: logic vs religion
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Mar-2004 21:34:31 (#7089)

A wise man will always learn more from a fool than a fool will from a wise man.

Love it...
Posted by Radar on 14-Mar-2004 17:00:21 (#7141)

I bet they thought you were an associate of Art Bell?

Excellent Point! *NM*
Posted by Radar on 14-Mar-2004 16:58:09 (#7140)

A rare ESR opportunity
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Mar-2004 21:11:18 (#7071)

Last night I played at a table where the BJ checking system was not working, so the dealer was checking for BJ after the hand and pushing DD or split money.

This casino has LSR and for a while he was paying surrenders before checking! This is the same as ESR which is a very favorable rule. Too bad I don't know the rules for ESR but I might learn them now in case this opportunity arises again. After a shoe or two a PC came over and corrected him, unfortunately.

Re: A rare ESR opportunity
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Mar-2004 09:07:35 (#7078)

You can find early surrender rules in Million Dollar Blackjack.

a rare one too,
Posted by eyesfor21 on 11-Mar-2004 13:12:04 (#7081)

had a nice pop at an Cdn casino that just opened and payed
2 to 1 on outside roulette bets,we cleaned up,
until corrected..

Re: a rare one too,
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Mar-2004 21:33:10 (#7088)

Good for you! Most of my advantages are not so hot or so far between. I lik'em one a day plus iron. ;>

Emerald Queen Casino
Posted by Grift on 11-Mar-2004 16:53:19 (#7085)

Anyone familiar with the Emerald Queen Casino in Tacoma Washington?
Is it a fun place? Lots of tables? Thanks.

Re: Emerald Queen Casino
Posted by uwhusky on 13-Mar-2004 03:00:02 (#7106)

I am pretty familiar with the Queen. All 6D tables with $5,10,15 and 25 min and $500 max. I actually prefer the Muckleshoot Casino over the Queen for atmoshpere, but even they don't offer DD, just Super Fun 21 and 6D.

Re: Emerald Queen Casino
Posted by Zeno on 13-Mar-2004 20:27:59 (#7117)

Yes! I live not to far from EQC. They have the following blackjack game:
8 decks, DOA, NDAS, H17. Basically their game is a piece of crap in my opinion. I never play there.

Situations that can blow your cover
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 12-Mar-2004 08:57:41 (#7093)

Situation #1: 1 or 2 deck game - 2 players on the table

The count calls for a max bet. The cards come, D shows 10, player on right tucks quickly, I have two face cards so I tuck. D turns the hole card, it's a face, everybody pushes with a 20. Six faces just went bye bye. There is another hand to be pitched before the shuffle. PC is watching.

What are we to do with our max bet still sitting there in the circle?

Situation #2: 1 or 2 deck game

The D has already dealt the pack very deep and the C is now a monster. But your assuming the D will most likely shuffle so you don't put out your max bet yet. Suddenly the D appears to be ready to pitch you another hand so you quickly put out your max bet which then wakes the D from a day-dream. D notices there aren't very many cards left and decides to shuffle. PC is watching.

What are we to do with our max bet still sitting there?

depends on your bet spread.
Posted by gehrig on 12-Mar-2004 10:39:54 (#7096)

if you were to have opened a deck/shoe with a mid-sized wager, then deviations from that appear to be less significant. opening with that mid-sized wager enables the player to mask changes, up or down depending on the count or other available information, so as to resemble some progression. table talk/jive can enforce those bet changes as well. enough free stuff.

Re: Situations that can blow your cover
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Mar-2004 12:49:10 (#7097)

Situation 1- This is tougher. Probably a good time to say "God damn it, I can't even win with a 20 in this place." and switch tables.

Situation 2- leave the bet, especially in SD. It's going to cost you about 15 cents per hundred dollars to buy yourself some cover.

Re: Situations that can blow your cover
Posted by ladykiller on 12-Mar-2004 17:02:06 (#7101)

You also need to really know the PC. Does he know what he's doing or is he just a regular dumbass? Cellini's info on determining this is real good. But usually, you should leave it out there because surveillance could be watching and it's real simple to keep track on 1,2D.

Let the pit do your work
Posted by toddler on 13-Mar-2004 17:12:24 (#7114)

Stealth,

In either situation, if you want your bet retracted, you could have the the pit do your dirty work. Just walk away from the table with your bet in the circle. If you want, say something to the effect of "I'll be right back" as though you just saw someone you know or some other excuse that would cause you to immediately leave the table. I have seen this happen and performed by a guy sitting next to me. He shoved out three purple and a couple black, waved at a friend and walked away before one card was dealt. Dealer was confused, called the GS and the GS came over and pushed the bet out of the circle.

It's amazing what drunk gamblers can teach us.

Re: Let the pit do your work
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 13-Mar-2004 20:55:33 (#7118)

I've come up with quick reasons while in one of these situations to leave the table, but when I have done this, I have always pulled my own $ out of the circle making it only half believable.

I like your suggestion. It will work. In fact, it can work very well by giving us an option.

How about a cell phone?
Posted by Radar on 14-Mar-2004 16:56:23 (#7139)

Would that work? You could pull your phone from your pocket, step away from the table and the dealer will push it away. I actually saw this at a game. The dealer waited for about 20 seconds and then decided the game must go on and pushed him out.

Of course, you have to be pretty convincing that you're talking to someone...maybe step out of earshot?

Love the thought...makes sense to me.

Re: How 'bout a busty blonde !?
Posted by toddler on 14-Mar-2004 19:21:46 (#7143)

The key is to make it look natural, but as Grace Slick sang on Fast Buck Freddie..."Think fast, he thinks he's running you". If your using a good drunk act, it's simple... very simple.

It's hard to get serious when the joker is laughing!!!

toddler

Re: How about a cell phone?
Posted by suicyco maniac on 14-Mar-2004 23:03:58 (#7148)

Ya unless you decide to do this every 2 or 3 shoes at 4:30 AM...I mean come on who gets calls every 15 minutes at that time of night?????? Think I'm kidding....believe me it happens a lot more then you think!! I have spotted a lot of counters with this very tell...It amazes me how many counters play exactly the same...SM

I was thinking about one time
Posted by Radar on 15-Mar-2004 06:12:30 (#7153)

Since a previous post talked about walking away and letting the pit move out his chips, my thought was the same except don't walk away, just move away from the table.

Of course, it could only be done once, but usually that is all you need it for...at least for me, as my session play is short.

mebbe 10 years back, i saw this move...
Posted by gehrig on 15-Mar-2004 01:40:29 (#7150)

twas at the texas. the counter had an eastern european "d.p." shtick...top coat, buttoned up white shirt, no tie, and so forth. on a dd game, each time the count went south, the punter coincidentally received an incoming cell phone call which required him to step back from the table. of course, the call terminated at shuffle-up. he added a w.c. break, between calls. similarly, he returned to the table when the shuffle was completed. the dealer and pit didn't notice.

I don't think the guy I saw was counting...
Posted by Radar on 15-Mar-2004 22:23:10 (#7167)

He kept on talking away for the next two decks! hehe

KO System - Effective or Not?
Posted by Lars on 12-Mar-2004 14:36:32 (#7098)

Ive pretty much been studying the KO system but havent tried it out in a casino yet. It seems to be logical and make sense.. just wanted to see what people's thoughts on it are... also would like to hear from KO users who are successful with it and don't use any other system.. If anyone is interested in the system but hasnt heard of it the website for it is www.koblackjack.com ...

Re: KO System - Effective or Not?
Posted by Roy on 13-Mar-2004 21:18:01 (#7119)

I just used KO for the first time in combat conditions -- after months of practicing. For me it seems to be a good system and is effective. I was a straight basic strategy player for many years and now use KO as my count preference. This board generally has a good opinion of KO, including The Mayor. The one critcism that I have heard about KO is that there are other count systems that are more powerful and accurate. KO is good for the casual player seems to be the general consensus. For me it works fine and I have no complaints. Good luck.

Re: KO System - Effective or Not?
Posted by Lars on 14-Mar-2004 11:02:11 (#7128)

Well about other systems being more accurate i don't know about that.. because if you read in some chapters of the KO book.. it says that other more difficult systems can fatigue you with the difficult counts you need to keep so can lead you to make more mistakes in your count therefore your count can be inaccurate... or even simple systems like the Hi/Lo can be inaccurate because when you convert the running count to the true count.. your "estimating" how many decks are left in the shoe (i'm on the east coast so only 6 and 8 deck games here) ... since your estimating (guessing pretty much no matter how good of a guess it is.. still a guess) you don't have a absolute totally accurate count... as for the KO system.. your only keeping one count.. running count of course.. no conversion to true count .. and if your a good counter and dont' miss any cards in your count i cant see how they can say the KO system can be innaccurate <shrugs> ... anyways want to hear other thoughts... if you check out the KO website (www.koblackjack.com) ... im thinking about getting there simulation software to practice.. do any of you have it and how is the software in your opinion? ..

Re: KO System - Effective or Not?
Posted by CanKen on 14-Mar-2004 09:44:54 (#7125)

I fit your criteria pretty well. Been using KO about three years, have not tried any other system, though I have read a lot about the characteristics and pros and cons of most of the popular systems. I have gradually customized, learned 25 indices, and exit strategy. All these things are in the book. You don't have to learn them all at once. My experience has been positive and I would recommend KO for anyone, at least up to the serious recreational level.
The newer books often mention KO and give it positive ratings, comparing well with other level one systems and with the advantage of simplicity.
Hope this helps.
(P.S. See also my post above in response to "How many hours" )

I use it...and love it!
Posted by Radar on 14-Mar-2004 16:49:24 (#7138)

I, too, was a ploppy using BS for a number of years. Last August I decided to take my game to the next level.

I got and read all the books, got involved on the websites, and was, generally a sponge for information on counting.

Knockout is NOT a sissy in the blackjack counting world. It holds its' own with the best of them. Don Schlesinger has since come around to espouse its' virtues.

You have to remember, KO was not around when Anthony Curtis, Wong, Schlesinger, Andersen and some of the more renowned Pros started. Because they don't use it, doesn't make it an inferior system. Many of them, probably would have, if it was around then. Check Blackjack Attack for comparisons...

Anyway, back to my story. I practiced and practiced and started in the casinos playing KO from the 1st of January, this year. I have played 60 hours using the system and my results are +17 units. Results don't mean anything here, just wanted to show how I have done, since I am relatively new.

Here's something to consider in addition to the other things that have been posted here. Yes, KO is an unbalanced system...and yes, there is less fatigue due to TC conversions, etc...but the best part, I believe is this...COVER.

Most surveillance crews know only Hi-Lo so if you use any system other than that, it will throw them off. Most people don't consider this, but once you get to green/black action, anything for cover helps...

The biggest downside with KO is wonging in. At a 6 deck game you start at -20 and -24 for the 8 deckers...it takes forever, sometimes, to get to a positive count.

I play only DD games, so it is not as bad.

Hope this helps...my 2-cents!

Re: I use it...and love it!
Posted by MrPill on 15-Mar-2004 12:03:22 (#7158)

Radar,

Above you said: "Most surveillance crews know only Hi-Lo so if you use any system other than that, it will throw them off. Most people don't consider this, but once you get to green/black action, anything for cover helps..."

I would have to say that this is not really true. It does not matter if you are using High/Lo, KO or Red7 (like me) the biggest give away is the bet variation. And as we all know the basis of any count is to tell us when we have a deck (or shoe) rich in 10's and changing the bet accordingly. So it does not matter what your count is, although some counts may tell us this better than others, this is what is looked for to detect a counter.

As I mentioned above I use the Red7 count which is also an unbalanced count devised by Arnold Snyder and presented in Blackbelt in Blackjack. It is also documented to perform very well and has severed my needs as a recreational counter extremely well.

Good luck,
Pill

Re: I use it...and love it!
Posted by Lars on 15-Mar-2004 14:16:28 (#7162)

I heard that a drawback to the Red 7 system is that you have to keep a separate count for 7 cards that are red (diamond and heart) ... in a multiple deck game.. could be a drawback.. but i heard the KO authors got inspiration for their system from the Red 7 system <shrugs> ... anyways how many months/hours did you practice before attempting the KO system in a casino environment... if i havent mentioned it yet i plan to get the KO software that complements the book for training/practice...

Re: I use it...and love it! *LINK*
Posted by MrPill on 16-Mar-2004 11:49:39 (#7181)

"I heard that a drawback to the Red 7 system is that you have to keep a separate count for 7 cards that are red (diamond and heart)"

Actually you do not keep a seperate count for the red 7's it is just that they are added as +1 and the black 7s are ignored. It is still just one running count. This becomes second nature after you practice it, just like knowing that a 3 adds 1 to the running count.

Tags are:
A -1
10 -1
9 0
8 0
B7 0
R7 1
6 1
5 1
4 1
3 1
2 1

Now here is the beauty of the RED7 over KO.

The initial starting count (IRC) is -2 per deck. If you were playing a six deck shoe your IRC is -12 (i.e. 6 x -2). Double deck game the IRC = -4. The KO system has you remember various numbers depending on the number of decks you play.

By using this to determine your IRC and the card tags given above your pivot point (when you start to get the advantage) is always zero now matter how many decks are in play! In KO they call this key count and again have you remember different numbers depending on the number of decks in play.

I also initially started out looking at using KO, actually still have the book, but then on the Cardcounter Cafe many years ago Zengrifter suggested that I look into this count. I'm glad that I did and have had good success with it over the 4 or 5 years that I have used it.

Good Luck,
Pill

From a newbie to others regarding count systems
Posted by hinoon on 16-Mar-2004 16:57:07 (#7184)

Just a little note here:

It has often been repeated to me that to really get good at this endeavor...before you start considering other counts, you should play with Hi-Lo for 200 hours at the table.

Why do that? Because it's the standard by which all other counts are measured. If you drill it into your brain, you have built a foundation of knowledge...

Then you'll be ready to consider the Red Sevens or KO or Zen or any of the other counts out there.

If you're like me...you're always thinking faster, higher, harder....what will give you that extra edge?

In the long run...the biggest edge comes from unshakable knowledge gained by experience. In order to get that, you have to slow down a bit and pay your dues by learning the fundamentals.

Have I looked at KO and other unbalanced counts? Yep. Will I learn to use them? Yep.....after a few more hours of Hi-Lo. Should I throw caution to the wind and just learn KO before I've put in my hours on Hi-Lo? Well, if I listen to and trust the opinion of the pros...absolutely not.

Re: From a newbie to others regarding count systems
Posted by MrPill on 16-Mar-2004 18:14:26 (#7187)

HighNoon,

If you learn and get proficient at the HiLo count then I would say you would not want to take a step back and learn Red7 or KO unless you are looking for an easier count.

HiLo needs a TC conversion and is a little more difficult than using a unbalanced count at the tables. But yes, it is the "industry standard".

Pill

Re: From a newbie to others regarding count systems
Posted by Lars on 16-Mar-2004 19:46:03 (#7189)

I really dont see the reason for learning the Hi/Lo so u can master KO, Red or other counts... like Pill said Hi/Lo uses 2 counts... a running count that then converts to a True count... KO and Red7 are strictly unbalanced counting systems that only utilizes a running count.. no conversion.. so if you can add or subtract 1 thats all there is to it.. no dividing by estimating how many decks are left in play <shrugs> .. if your playing/practicing 200 hours of Hi/Lo and have mastered it.. then there is no sense in mastering KO or Red7... unless like Pill said you want to go backwards and use a unbalanced simplier system ... without 2 counts... the running count in Hi/Lo is pretty much same as KO/Red7 .. 10 - A = -1 ... 2,3,4,5,6,7 = +1 ... 8,9 = 0 in KO ... and Pill already described Red7 which if i remember right.. its 10-A = -1 ... 2,3,4,5,6,7R = +1 ... 7B,8,9 = -1 ... so if you only learn the running count with a small variation (7R is +1 and 7B is 0) depending on the system you dont need to master the Hi/Lo to master the unbalanced 1 level systems... you either prefer one or the other.. <shrugs> ....

Re: From a newbie to others regarding count systems
Posted by MrPill on 17-Mar-2004 11:54:20 (#7215)

"and Pill already described Red7 which if i remember right.. its 10-A = -1 ... 2,3,4,5,6,7R = +1 ... 7B,8,9 = -1"

Should be 7B,8,9 = 0

Pill

Re: From a newbie to others regarding count systems
Posted by Lars on 24-Mar-2004 20:26:34 (#7397)

yeah i made typo Pill ... its suppose to read 7B,8,9 = 0 ....

Re: From a newbie to others regarding count systems
Posted by hinoon on 18-Mar-2004 19:33:10 (#7245)

I'll be learning KO after I perfect Hi-Lo purely for the sake of knowledge and flexibility. The fact is...it might be helpful to me at some point to change counts...

I don't think that there's any harm in learning the hardest skill first, then building up less taxing skills as feathers in my proverbial cap.

I know people who can keep two or three counts running simultaneously. I know people who change their count mid-play to accomodate their needs.

How you choose to do it is up to you...and clearly everyone learns differently. I was just passing on the advice *I'd* been given by those far more proficient than myself.

It was my opinion...
Posted by Radar on 15-Mar-2004 22:19:12 (#7166)

Like I said, I am NEW...but, most people upstairs do use Hi-Lo and you're right, bet variation plays a big part, but it sure can't hurt to be playing any other system BESIDES Hi-Lo...

Now how much it helps (or doesn't help), I leave that for you pros...

KO system
Posted by sjholmes on 12-Mar-2004 15:19:54 (#7100)

Does anyone have, or know somewhere that I can get the full strategy matrix for t

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