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Threads 1171 to 1200

dual id's
Posted by ed vantage on 07-Jun-2004 15:06:31 (#8622)

I posted this question on the fake ID thread about 10 days ago but got no response. I think it got overlooked.

Do the pit critters ever notice you give them a differant ID? ("Tom Smith? I thought you were Andy Jones." etc.)
ed

I have NEVER...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Jun-2004 10:49:54 (#8651)

... had the PCs notice. zg

Best way to train counting?
Posted by Royam on 07-Jun-2004 20:00:10 (#8634)

I downloaded the demo of CVBJ and the basic strategy drill was great.

Now I want to train counting but the drill does not seem to work (count is always 0; maybe because it is a demo version). Before buying anything, I would like your advice on the best way to train:
- deal cards to myself?
- or use a software (I like this idea because it tells me if I am wrong)?
- if yes, which one?

Your advice will be much appreciated, thank you,

Royam.

you got the best
Posted by John on 07-Jun-2004 20:48:50 (#8636)

I think CVBJ is the best there is for drills/practice/ index generation. It is expensive. If you are going to play green or black, I would definitely purchase CVBJ. If you red chip, you might want to consider other options. The only thing I have is CVBJ so I can't give my opinion on anything else. Yeah, you can definitely just count threw a deck of cards or even 2 decks of cards to get practice. Do 1 deck in 30 seconds or less. Even though I've been counting off and on for a year and a half, I still get slow sometimes.

Help needed to compare counting software
Posted by Royam on 07-Jun-2004 21:08:22 (#8638)

Ok, thank you for your review of CVBJ ($81), John.

Ne Plus Ultra ($38) and SmartCards ($54.95) were also mentioned in an older thread. Can anybody help comparing these products?

Thanks for your help,

Royam

Practice! Practice! Practice! *LINK*
Posted by Waldo on 09-Jun-2004 19:53:00 (#8683)

On this site under "The Mayor's Essays", in the essay titled "Practice Practice Practice", he has some good tips on how to "practice" BS and counting. I recommend reading all of the essays, they're quite good. The best part is it's free. You can go to hitorstand.net and practice BS on-line. I like the difficult game, it makes you think fast. You will also find some free programs at freshmeat.net, OpenBlackjack is not a bad program that tracks the count and offers suggestions for BS. I've just started creating some flash cards for BS, Generic Eight Deck, S17, DOA, DAS, NS. I only have the soft totals completed right now. You print out the first 8 pages then flip them over and print the last 8 pages on the back using 80lb paper or higher. I made them the size of standard playing cards so I could put them in my automatic shuffler. The link to the PDF file is below.

Thanks for the flashcards
Posted by Royam on 10-Jun-2004 12:48:45 (#8716)

I ordered a software that was elected best for practice and was rather cheap ($38) and also train counting with a real deck. I'll tell you how good the software is when I get it.

Royam

Being abe to count 2 decks in 50 seconds was Revere's recommendation
Posted by wc21 on 10-Jun-2004 22:50:13 (#8732)

before playing in a casino.

I recommend getting to the point where you can do this 10-20 times in a row with no more than 15-20 seconds breaks. There is a fatgue that sets in and practice helps the endurance.

Then start all over learning to count two cards at a time....Then try doing these while watching TV and talking with someone...Practice makes a big difference.

wc21

That is more or less what I was doing
Posted by Royam on 11-Jun-2004 12:48:51 (#8744)

Going through a deck, turning cards two at a time (which is somehow easier as high cards sometimes cancel low cards), and trying to keep both the count and a reasonable pace.

At this stage, it takes me about 50 sec to go through a SINGLE deck, so I got a lot of improvement ahead of me! Also, I usually don't get the count right but about 0.5 or 1 too much/little (using halves count), which means that I'm probably a little too quick. I'll try to slow down, get to the point where I make no mistake, then increase the speed. I'll also get used to doing not one but two decks.

Thanks for the guidance.

Royam

Very interesting web video
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Jun-2004 20:51:36 (#8637)

Enjoy this video ...

http://easylink.playstream.com/katu/team2/040527casino_security.wvx

--Mayor

Eliot
Posted by suicyco maniac on 07-Jun-2004 21:37:01 (#8640)

Good to see ya back in one piece...I have a few interesting stories I will E-mail you tomorrow.

What struck me...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jun-2004 23:02:38 (#8642)

... was on the Biometrica screen they have indicators for the type of cheating a cheat uses- Dauber, Bender, and Hole Card? Someone needs to explain to these people that the dealer showing you his hole card doesn't make you a cheat.

They also didn't show the column of check boxes to the right of the Dauber, Bender, etc. Gee, I wonder what those could have been for.

Brutal
Posted by Ohio_Jones on 08-Jun-2004 00:17:52 (#8644)

yeah i was waiting for them to show the other boxes. the first box starts with a "D" second looks like a "P", third and fourth look like "S". I'm sure there are other columns as well. and did anyone else find it scary how old Jack almost had an orgasm by saying "People just don't realize how covered they are with cameras." I think we all know why he's in that business. i just don't think anyone with such a weak mind should be in any type of security business. and finally the next best line is from the casino mgr. that says, "... to protect these assets and to make sure the games are .... uh have integrity." Yeah.. don't even think about saying fair jacka**

Facial recognition software
Posted by Royam on 08-Jun-2004 06:49:41 (#8645)

I agree with all the above.

What also struck me is how well the facial recognition software seemed to work. It matched a frontal view with a 3/4 side view, which I would not have expected.

Hard to say if this was arranged for propaganda thgouh (can you imagine the guys saying: "Geee, we have a software, but it doesn't match anything if the cobay is not wearing the exact same Hawaiian shirt! ;)").

They did not say anything about thermography or gait, how a person walks, or even ear recognition... any idea whether this is science fiction or already the real world?

I wonder up to when fake IDs will be of any use...

Royam

We could sue...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Jun-2004 10:27:46 (#8649)

... as Occidentals, for racial discrimination when the facial recognition system is deployed, being we don't all look alike.

All kidding aside, it is generally illegal to refuse to serve someone because of their face. And if it could be proven that the Biometrica system has a disparate impact on people of different races who are engaged in a legal activity like card counting the civil rights people would help in 86'ing it, and there would be plenty of case law on their side.

Does it work THAT Well?
Posted by Radar on 09-Jun-2004 16:08:10 (#8680)

Didn't the reporter get a connect to 7 other Asian women with black hair? That doesn't sound "perfect" to me. I think it shows that unless they get a good frontal picture of you, the system contains errors.

Not according to the Federal Government
Posted by J1 on 09-Jun-2004 22:53:56 (#8699)

In the rush for security in airports, etc. after 9/11, the Federal Government and Homeland Security tested the facial-recognition systems trying to find a full, or at-least partial, panacea to identify, in crowds, individuals stored in the system's "wanted" file(s).

The results were so dismally inaccurate the systems were dropped from consideration and the Federal "money-faucet" was not even turned-on in an attempt to "buy" or fund development of a system that would work.

Looking outside
Posted by Big Cowboy on 08-Jun-2004 08:23:47 (#8648)

Did you all notice how much they were looking outside the casino too?

the assigned task of surveillance is...
Posted by gehrig on 08-Jun-2004 11:08:43 (#8652)

"to protect the assets of the corporation". beyond internal theft and player moves, that includes fraudulent worker comp claims and guest injuries. thus cameras are placed in employee corridors/stairways/back room work areas. and, cameras cover the furthest perimeters of the public areas. that means that you lads who may be suspected of cheating, perhaps even only "advantage" play, can have your license plate viewed at the furthest parking spot in the self-park structure. of benefit to investigators of off-property criminal acts, many properties' cameras scan public areas, as sidewalks. likely a casino licensee would be sued for any injury incurred, even on a public walkway, even due to some theft or mugging. an attorney/acquaintance filed a suit on behalf of a lady who was assaulted and whose purse was snatched in a public parking structure at a significant strip shopping mall. surveillance camera tape was an issue.

unknown to most dealers is that *some* of the employee break rooms have audio, accessible only by surveillance. like your mother used to tell you, pretend that someone is watching you...in clark county (and london), perhaps you are.

That doesn't bother me
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Jun-2004 16:58:46 (#8659)

I rather like the security people watching the parking lot. It protects my car and me on the way to my car. And as long as we know about it, it won't hurt us at all. We look just like anyone else when we walk into a casino. It could be used to identify a team, but any good team knows better than to travel to the casino in the same car anyway.

casino watching will hurt
Posted by eyesfor21 on 08-Jun-2004 19:37:53 (#8666)

Because they can zoom in on yur car and see your plate,
and then know your real name-WAKE UP.

i recall scanning the last surveillance log entries...
Posted by gehrig on 09-Jun-2004 00:06:03 (#8674)

at the then closed, el rancho. of course, i was looking for outsourced databases, which were apparently removed when the joint closed. the bulk of the surveillance log entries related to minor damages to guest cars in the self park structure. nothing in the final several days regarding cheating, nay "advantaged" play.

Facial recognition has been usef for a few years.
Posted by Witling on 08-Jun-2004 17:36:13 (#8661)

It was used in Tampa at the Super Bowl in 2001.

http://www.nesbary.com/class/621w02/articles/looking_for_faces_in_the_super_b.htm

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,56878,00.html

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/facial-recognition.htm

web video
Posted by deZerTomB on 08-Jun-2004 20:03:17 (#8667)

no one pointed out 800 cameras and 2 people watching them, that's a lot of channels. Always when I see pictures of the surveillance room,I always look first to see how many people are actually watching the monitors. the second lady didn't look like a phd in abnormal psychology to me. maybe it's break time.

The fbi cannot even match fingerprints with any accuracy and they're gonna use facial recognition on me. In the words of dubya, bring em on. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not doing anything illegal, false arrest= payday. They don't want my action, I'll go somewhere else.

I always blow smoke at the security camera when I play.

I read an article lately about a guy who stole several thousand from a locked tray at a closed bj table and by the time some one noticed, probably when they went to open the table, where's the chips? They found the guy playing bj at another table. Surveillance was right on top of that, yeah right!!!

Or when they robbed the keno room late at night with guns and masks, then walked right out the casino, security guards probably held the doors open for them on the way out. Ya'll come back now, ya hear?

Or the article about the 2 dudes got fired for taking pics of dealer's tits. That tells you the clientelle must have been butt ugly.

My Thoughts Exactly
Posted by SammyBoy on 10-Jun-2004 17:30:26 (#8726)

You've got to have humans watching the screens. The cameras are great as long as they are recording everything and then someone notices a problem and looks at the tape. But the cameras cannot do a damn thing without human intervention.

Facial Recognition
Posted by rocky on 24-Jun-2004 18:47:35 (#8944)

Guys..facial recognition is still far from perfect but it is making great strides since the field test at Palace Station/Rivera/Nevada Palace back in l998. The feds passed on this because the system takes too long to analyze using human input...would be much better if computer assisted or directed. Software now being written for such programs. Great point about surveillance only being as good as the human element...you gotta realize that Nevada had NO minimum standards under Gaming Control Act until 1996 and each hotel could staff to their own desire. Now most casino's fall into class A/B designations depending on gross revenue and have to staff to state requirements. Gehrig mentioned the El Rancho...that place closed down back in the late 80"s, for gawd's sake!!!! What surveillance they had then consisted for guys on the catwalk. The owner, the late Ed Torres, was the most miserable cheap SOB the town ever saw...he probably would not spend any money on the place...look at the state of the frigging carpet just before it closed...gross!!! Idiots are found all over, not just surveillance. Guy I know works Hard Rock...you wouldn't believe the "blooper" tape he compiled of stuff going on at the bar, at the pool at night, at the cabanas, on the floor of the JOYNT...Girls Gone Wild ain't sh-t, in comparison!However, he wasn't zoomed in on this stuff...just stuff that came up in review of normal coverage. Boring? you bet your ass it's boring...like watching TV with no sound for 8 long frigging hours. The upside? When things get exciting...THEY GET EXCITING! Best case I worked on was providing/directing CAT(Criminal Apprehension Team...Bad Boys, Bad Boys)and FBI take down a murder suspect from an INTERPOL warrant. Got some kudo's from various sources on that. Gotta be a different type to work this environment.

Double Exposure- beatable?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Jun-2004 07:15:21 (#8646)

It looks like it should be, with an ace-neutral count and a good spread. Now what I'm wondering is- should that spread be non-monotonic, where I decrease my bet beyond a certain TC. The reason is that dealer wins pushes in that game and pushes increase with TC.

Covered by Wong...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Jun-2004 10:46:29 (#8650)

...beatable, and the count volatility is higher - the playerEV increases more rapidly that regBJ. But there are so few games it doesn't seem worthwhile to learn the strategy. zg

Surveillance Watching More Than Casino Assets
Posted by SammyBoy on 08-Jun-2004 15:23:18 (#8657)

http://casinocitytimes.com/news/article.cfm?contentID=143293

I'd do the same thing
Posted by suicyco maniac on 08-Jun-2004 18:25:50 (#8662)

It has to be boring as hell to sit in a surveilence room all day long. SM

Agree!
Posted by SammyBoy on 10-Jun-2004 17:07:07 (#8724)

My guess is that it is a pretty common thing to do in surveillance. The wrong people must have learned what was happening and exacted some revenge. Years ago I had one of those big C band satellite dishes. When watching games during commercials many time I would still get a sat feed of the game. The camera guys would always zoom in on the hottest chicks.

Does the name "Merlin Jones" sound made up to anyone else? *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 08-Jun-2004 18:38:40 (#8664)

Counting system: less ambitious, more realistic
Posted by Royam on 08-Jun-2004 21:43:21 (#8669)

At the end of � Professional Blackjack�, there is an interesting reader�s letter asking: �Tell me what is the best counting system and I�ll learn it, no matter how much practice it takes�. Wong�s answer: �Unless you are a great counter, stick to a simple system that you perfectly master. Otherwise you will make errors that will offset the slight advantage derived from more elaborate system.� Wong also recommends learning only strategy numbers between -1 and 6.

Keeping track of the as is too much for me (at least now). I was thinking of practicing halve count, with numbers from -1 to 6. Any suggestion about another �simple�, but better system?

Royam

Adding fuel to the fight
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 09-Jun-2004 08:26:02 (#8676)

Does anyone know what happens if arrested for trespass on sovereign Indian casino land? Do they handcuff? Where do they take the perp.? Myself and others are considering doing something with an aggressive twist. Can't say what or why yet. Sorry.

Would especially like to hear from anyone who got arrested after having been told prior, NOT to enter the property ever again.

It depends
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-Jun-2004 09:43:17 (#8677)

The Indian tribes that have casinos have to sign away the bulk of their sovereignty in order to pull it off. That's why they have to obey state liquor laws and (for the most part) collect state sales tax.

Also, Indians are forbidden from applying tribal laws or justice to anyone but their own tribal members. They have no right to handcuff or detain visitors, any more than a department store security guard does. There are situations where security guards can handcuff (in some states) to prevent a person suspected of a crime from fleeing or attacking.

I wouldn't recommend any kind of aggressive action in a casino because the trumped-up charges and criminal record that could result will follow you around for the rest of your life, not worth it to prove a point. However if you do anything and casino personnel touch, handcuff, or physically aggress you, be sure to take note of and report to your doctor and attorney any pain in your back or neck that results.

Many legal unknowns
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 09-Jun-2004 17:40:52 (#8681)

I was once escorted out the door and told to get in my car and never come back. I addition, I was handed a paper that said various things to the effect that I am not ever allowed on the property anytime in the future.

It's been about 3.5 years and now I'm thinking about going back to start playing some again. However, I'm concerned about what might happen to me legally. I certainly don't want anything stuck on my record.

Also, Indians are forbidden from applying tribal laws or justice to anyone but their own tribal members.

So what can they legally do with a person who trespasses? What�s the worst-case scenario? Who has jurisdiction? Can they haul me down to the County Jail off of the Indian land?

...if you do anything and casino personnel touch, handcuff, or physically aggress you, be sure to take note of and report to your doctor and attorney any pain in your back or neck that results.

Okay, so what if they beat the crap out of me? What recourse do I really have? Remember, these people have sovereign immunity.

It's a misdemeanor, right?
Posted by John on 10-Jun-2004 05:11:37 (#8701)

I think trespassing is a misdemeanor. That is a fine and a little probation. They would give you probably 6 months of non-reporting probation and maybe fine you the amount that they think you won at the casino. That sounds like something a jerk of a judge would do.

I doubt that they would beat you up unless you have first-hand experience of something like that happening. I can't see it happening in North America.

Trespass act, etc.
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Jun-2004 16:16:22 (#8722)

If it was 3.5 years ago, probably few or any of the people involved will still be there and it's unlikely there is any record of you being barred, other than maybe something on a player's card record. What you might want to do is: go and get a player's card, play some slots for a while, and go home. When they send you some junk mail inviting you to come back to the casino for this or that, save it, then go back and start doing your thing. That mailer with your name on it will serve as pretty solid proof that you were personally invited into the casino by management and thus had a right to be there, should anything happen.

Indian sovereignty is a pretty tricky thing. Most of the tribes with casinos are bullsh!t tribes that were formed just for the purpose of building a casino. And to get this deal they had to sign away all kinds of things including the right to not pay taxes and the right to not submit to state authority. In the stores where I usually play (in CT) the only sign of CT law not applying is they still allow smoking in the restaurants. State troopers are in the parking lot all the time. It's still possible they might though, and in a recent Michigan trip a local told me that these things happen in ther casinos sometime. The best answer you can get will be from a local personal injury lawyer, call one up and tell him you slipped in the men's room and hit your head at the Indian casino and you're wondering if you have a case. He will know for sure.

Just wait a little longer
Posted by John on 10-Jun-2004 17:21:00 (#8725)

Hey, you've waited 3.5 years. I believe the statute of limitations will run out after 6 years. Just wait 2.5 more. Then there will be absolutely nothing they can do to you.

I'm by no way an expert but...
Posted by Royam on 10-Jun-2004 17:47:13 (#8727)

In my eyes, casinos are private property, but open to the public for commercial purposes and customers are welcome (as "invitees", thus not trespassing). Once you have been communicated that you are not welcome anymore, all subsequent entries on the premises would be deemed trespassing.

You can find the Mississipi trespass act on the Mayor�s legal references list and it reads as follows:

�Section 97-17-97, Mississippi Code of 1972:
97-17-97. (1) If any person or persons shall without authority of law go into or upon or remain in or upon any building, premises or land of another, including the premises of any public housing authority after having been banned from returning to the premises of the housing authority, whether an individual, a corporation, partnership, or association, or any part, portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing including any sign hereinafter mentioned, by any owner, or lessee, or custodian, or other authorized person, or by the administrators of a public housing authority regardless of whether or not having been invited onto the premises of the housing authority by a tenant, or after having been forbidden to do so by such sign or signs posted on, or in such building, premises or land, or part, or portion, or area thereof, at a place or places where such sign or signs may be reasonably seen, such person or persons shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00) or by confinement in the county jail not exceeding six (6) months, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
(2) The provisions of this section are supplementary to the provisions of any other statute of this state �

I think that the statute of limitation bars prosecution of crimes after a certain amount of time has elapsed, which means that if you haven't been caught for trespassing after a few years, you cannot be prosecuted for this purpose any more. I do NOT think that this changes what I said before about your having lost the invitee status when you were read the trespasser act.

Upon entering the casino, the staff could thus retain you until they hand you over to the police that might arrest you for trespassing. The maximum penalty is impressive (up to 6 months jail), but I have no idea what a judge would really impose. It all depends on local practice.

All I can tell you is that it would probably not be safe on the legal side.

Now, I have also read that players play peacefully in casino where they have been read the trespass act before, and they would need to tell you more about this. I have no experience.

Royam
the trespasser act.

We may not be in Kansas anymore
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 11-Jun-2004 00:32:06 (#8735)

My friends, you all speak with sensible intelligence. Much of which would be quite helpful anywhere accept in a land where the laws are hidden and when tested, are very one-sided.

It's quite amazing that our federal gov has allowed things to become this way for its own citizens whenever they enter Indian lands.

The first change that should be required of the Indian casino operators, is to post their one-sided laws in a bold easy to read conspicuous location at the entrance of the property and at the entrance of the casino. Otherwise, I think all there is left for the patrons and employees who enter, is to hope and pray that they are not violated during their stay.

Indian territory is a very different world
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 11-Jun-2004 00:11:31 (#8734)

The best answer you can get will be from a local personal injury lawyer, call one up and tell him you slipped in the men's room and hit your head at the Indian casino and you're wondering if you have a case. He will know for sure.

I have mentioned to attorneys a number of possible hypothetical situations that result in injury, loss or damage. They all just say either they don't know if there is any recourse, or making a claim or filing a suit is about a powerful as a popcorn fart in the wind against an Indian casino.

My first counting experience
Posted by Sticks7784 on 09-Jun-2004 15:44:03 (#8679)

I got back from my first counting experience yesterday on a Carnival Cruise ship. The game was 8D, DOA, DAS, no RSA and I was using hi-low. At first it was difficult for me to keep the count, especially when the table was full, but by the end of the trip I could go through the entire shoe with a certain level of confidence that I had the right count. I probably averaged about 4 hours a day in the casino for 7 days and I ended up probably 20 units. I spread 1:6 but only ever got up to a 6 units bet once that I can remember. I played a lot of negative shoes because it was difficult to wong in and out. The experience was invaluable to me though and I can't wait to get back out there. What good games are there in the northeast that's not 21 years old to enter?

It's also incredible how stupid people are and will play games with terrible odds against them. It makes me want to open my own casino.

Are you near Niagara Falls?
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 09-Jun-2004 22:27:35 (#8697)

I personally have never noticed any casinos in the Northeast U.S. that allow under 21 year olds. But you can play in Canada(Niagara Falls[2 casinos]) at 19. Both places are right on the border.

The problem is, the games are bad in Canada. All 8 deckers, usually with crumby penetration. Not unbeatable, but almost... not very profitable at all. And there are caveats with the exchange rate and all. I'll can elaborate if you want.

Are you at least a road-trip from there and over 19?

-Felix

Turning Stone
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Jun-2004 09:48:11 (#8707)

The Turning Stone casino, outside Syracuse NY, 18+ to play. Game is much like the one you were playing except last time I went, penetration was excellent.

Your results are very close to expectation value for the spread you were using. You might want to try increasing your spread in a shoe game: 1:10, 1:12, 1:16 and 1:20 are commonly used for 8D shoe and if you go to Turning Stone where the tables are not usually crowded, you should learn to Wong out on bad counts.

Turning Stone
Posted by Sticks7784 on 11-Jun-2004 19:09:46 (#8751)

Thanks, that's the only one that I know of that's near me. My friends go there a lot so I'm sure I'll make a few trips up there this summer. How are the games at Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun? I'll be 21 in about 6 months so I can go there when I'm at school.

At what count do you recommend a max bet when using a larger spread? Would the bet at a TC of +1 still be 2 units or would it also increase?

Typical Spread for 8D
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Jun-2004 22:33:31 (#8759)

-2 wong out
-1 to +1 1u
+2 2u
+3 4u
+4 8u
+5 16u

Need help to caclulate house advantage plz
Posted by Royam on 09-Jun-2004 19:22:26 (#8682)

I'm trying to figure out the house advantage for a given set of rules, not sure I do it right though:

Six decks in play (-60)

Ties are pushes (0)

BJ pays 3 to 2 (67)

DB on 9, 10, 11 made of 2 cards only (-27); DB after split allowed (8)

Resplit allowed (4), including for aces (3)

Can hit only once after splitting aces and getting 21 this was is no BJ (?)

Insurance (not clear, probably only when hole card is ace) pays 2 to 1 (?)

Total: - 5

Is is how I am supposed to do? If so, this means that the game is not great, right? Is it still worth playing?

Royam

House Edge
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Jun-2004 21:18:17 (#8687)

Are you getting these numbers from Professional Blackjack?
The numbers you have are to be added/subtracted from the base rules game edge.

A better way to do it is to go to www.bjmath.com/bjmath/conseq/rules.htm

The first line of the chart shows the base edge given the set of rules.
Find your rule variations, and add/subtract the numbers to give the house edge.

Ok, thank you.
Posted by Royam on 09-Jun-2004 21:35:51 (#8690)

Yes, I took the numbers from � Professional Blackjack �, at least as much as I could (not easy to find exact equivalents).

Using the site you suggest, I get:

Base Rules, 6 decks: - 0.52
S 17: 0
D9: - 0.091
RSA (SPA3): 0.069
DAS/SPL3: 0.142
NS: 0
BJ2:1: 2.266

Total: 1.866

Don't really know how good/bad it is though... Btw, is it normal that insurance has such a heavy weight in the balance??? I was not aware it was that important...

Royam

Almost correct.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Jun-2004 21:53:01 (#8692)

Insurance has no weight (0.0) when calculating the house edge, since according to basic strategy you should never take insurance.

You have the figure for blackjack paying 2:1 instead of 3:2 which adds over a 2% advantage.

Your ending number for that set of rules (blackjacks paying 2:1) is positive, meaning you have an off the top advantage simply by playing basic strategy.

Typical house edge for 6 decks is usually around the -.4% neighborhood.
If the number was positive the house would lose money to basic strategy players.

I'm tired...
Posted by Royam on 09-Jun-2004 22:11:25 (#8694)

Ok, I must be very tired, because I first did not notice i had I copy-pasted the 2:1 ratio (without even checking) instead of the usual 3:2. This explains the 2.266 that I found very high.

Then, when I wanted to express my surprise about this, I used the word "insurance" instead of BJ. Sorry for the confusion!

Anyway, if I remove this 2.266 that I added by mistake, the house edge is 0.4, exactly as you said. So this means it is a decent game, not fantastic but still beatable with basic strategy and counting cards, right?

Now, to get back to your comment on insurance, you meant for a 0 count, right? Then you're supposed to take insurance in a 6 decks game when the count reaches 3.0 (hi-low) or 3.3 (havles)?

Thanks for your assistance,

Royam

You are correct taking insurance
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Jun-2004 22:25:06 (#8696)

You take insurance when the count says to take it. What you calculated was the basic strategy house edge, basic strategy never takes insurance, so insurance has no effect.

If you count well, bet the proper amounts, and use the I18 + a couple more indexes to vary your play, you can probably get a 1% to 1 1/2% edge (subtract the house edge of .4%) and you have about a 1% advantage on your total amount bet.

The problem, and the factor you haven't mentioned, is "how deep do they deal into the shoe?" If they are cutting off more than 1 1/2 decks, then the game isn't beatable. Much better would be a cut off of about 1 deck or less.

The deeper they consistently deal into the shoe, the more advantage you will obtain. If they shuffle after only dealing out 4 decks, then the game isn't beatable.

Need help to caclulate house advantage plz
Posted by deZerTomB on 10-Jun-2004 08:31:55 (#8704)

double on 9,10,11 bad
rsa good
das good
I don't know anywhere you can get insurance with a dealer anything other than an ace up. They'd probably take your money if you insisted.

But you missed the most important point,penetration. At least for me, but I only play pitch DD.

But if they won't let me double on anything, I wouldn't play there too often. That's a lot to give up. And a sure sign of bad overall odds through the rest of the joint.

Need help to caclulate house advantage plz
Posted by deZerTomB on 10-Jun-2004 08:57:04 (#8705)

better yet, go to bj21 and get the sample current bj news or go ahead and subscribe to get the current one.

house edge is listed for every casino, along with location, #decks, pen, min, max, rules. Saves a lot of leg work.

That won't help
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 10-Jun-2004 09:21:33 (#8706)

If I'm not mistaken, he is not playing in the US, probably playing in South America. The shoes with restricted doubling sound familar.

You are right... *PIC*
Posted by Royam on 10-Jun-2004 12:37:16 (#8713)

Thank you for all your answers.

I am currently in the US but will move to Europe in a couple of months, so I am prospecting...

From what I could find on the casinos' websites, it does not look all too good:
- db on 9, 10, 11 only,
- 6 deks only,
- and as it is in Europe, I fear it will be a no hole card where you lose all db and split bets on a dealer blackjack,
- they also sometimes charge you to access the bj pit,
- you sometimes got to show passport and they'll take your name before playing,
- etc...

As you both rightfully pointed out, I also forgot the importance of pentration. If it's not good, I don't know if I should even bother playing, with all the above mentioned disadvantages...

Royam

Very Nice
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 10-Jun-2004 13:47:33 (#8718)

but your DD on hard 8 row is wrong. The 5 3 1 should be shifted over 1 column.

In case you are wondering, DD 8 vs 3 is +8.

Thanks for corrections
Posted by Royam on 10-Jun-2004 15:38:58 (#8719)

I amended my table. I did not include the strategy number for 8 v. 3 because it is outside the range I have decided to learn for a start (-1 ... + 6).

I made the table because I find it much easier to learn from a colorful table than from the tiny columns in my books. Also too many strategy numbers confuse me. And I did not like the way Wong writes only "6" in a cell, it's not clear at first sight what to do below or above 6. I trust my mind to remember what to do better if I can visualize "s 6 h" (meaning stand below and hit when 6 or above).

Royam

Anyway, what do you think of the mentioned rules?
Posted by Royam on 10-Jun-2004 16:22:09 (#8723)

The picture was posted by mistake (I thought it would appear in my profile only), and it made a diversion from my real question: what do you think of the rules I mentioned?

Royam

depends on the...
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Jun-2004 18:01:41 (#8728)

... PENETRATION! zg

Good, that gives me hope!
Posted by Royam on 10-Jun-2004 18:15:27 (#8729)

I'll go and check out what the penetration looks like when I am there.

Thank you.

Royam

Also need help for the 8-8 split vs 10 plz
Posted by Royam on 09-Jun-2004 20:46:30 (#8685)

Wong says to split 8-8 vs 10, if the count is 8 or lower. He does not say what to do if the count is higher. As the line above (9-9) is a split or STAND line and the line below (7-7) is a split or HIT line, I don't know from these explanations if I must stand or hit 8-8 vs 10 with a count higher than 9.

Humble/Cooper give more details and advise against splitting 8-8 vs 10 when the count exceeds 8, in order to avoid "turning a probable busting hand into two probable losing hands". I deduce from this that, when the count exceeds 8, Ishould hit 8-8 vs 10.

Is this correct?

Thanks for your advice,

Royam

STAND
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Jun-2004 21:20:56 (#8689)

On any pair split hand, if the count is such to not split, then you play the hand like a hard total.

At +8 or more, you don't split 8,8 vs T.
So what do you do with 16 vs T at +8 count?

You stand on 16 vs T if the count is +0 or more, so you would certainly stand at +8, and hope the dealer busts.

Thanks Abraham
Posted by Royam on 09-Jun-2004 21:47:31 (#8691)

I understand your reasoning and it makes sense, but...

The quote in my original post speaks of the 16 v T as a "probable busting hand", which means the author assume that he would hit.

I can somehow understand why hitting would be more profitable: with a 8+ count, the shoe is full of high cards: any of these (7,8,9,T, or A) will make you lose (against 17, 18, 19, 20, or 21).
- So if you stand, you are very likely to be beaten,
- While if you hit, you are likely to get one of these high cards, among which the A will nicely bring you to 17 total (others would not be great, I must admit); plus you still have a chance to get a small card that will not make you bust.

All in all, I can understand how hitting would be more profitable. I lack skill to back up this intuitive reasoning with maths though.

Royam

It doesn't matter what you have.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Jun-2004 22:05:47 (#8693)

The reasoning behind standing on 16 vs T in high counts:

It doesn't matter what you have, it is what the dealer has that counts!
If the dealer has a T showing, and the count is high, what is the most likely card he has in the hole? Probably another T, giving him 20.

So even if you do hit your 16 and get the Ace for 17, you still lose.
In fact, it is very likely hitting a 16 in a high count - you are going to bust - and then it doesn't matter what the dealer has. The only card that really helps you is the 5 - and how likely is a 5 in a high count?

So you are probably beat, don't bust and prove it. If the dealer doesn't have a ten in the hole, then he might have to hit and bust with the Ten. Your 16 wins if the dealers busts, if you haven't busted first.

Stand on 16 vs T in positive counts. Hit 16 vs T in negative counts, it is less likely the dealer has T in the hole, less likely you will bust and might improve your hand, and less likely the dealer busts if he has to hit.

OK
Posted by Royam on 09-Jun-2004 22:13:16 (#8695)

Got it, thank you. I'm taking note of this.

Royam

Cover+
Posted by Ohio_Jones on 09-Jun-2004 22:31:23 (#8698)

you could always stand on any hard total of 16 for cover play. it is stated at a flat bet of $100 playing 100 hands/hr will result in a $2.65 loss/hr
~IA-BTTILV

of course at that high of a count you're sure to have your top spread bet out so standing on hard 16 including 8-8 is a profitable play.

like abraham posted earlier at that high of a count the dealer has a high probability of having a 20. what makes this work is when the dealer has a 2-6 in the hole and draws a bust card (hopefully not an ace if a 6 is in the hole).

IA-BTTILV

more than that
Posted by John on 10-Jun-2004 04:59:28 (#8700)

Flat betting $100 dollars playing basic strategy ? If I understand you correctly, you would most certainly lose more than $2.65 an hour in a 6 deck game on average.

You'd lose about $45 an hour.

What he meant was...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Jun-2004 16:02:37 (#8721)

That making the decision of always standing on hard 16 results in an additional loss of $2.65/hr over the Basic Strategy play.

I would modify this cover play by drawing hard 16 vs. A or 7, because these cards imply both a low chance of him busting and a decent chance of you winning if you catch a hand.

Risk Aversion
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Jun-2004 10:44:47 (#8710)

BS is proper play of each hand with no extra knowledge of which cards are left. If it is -4TC you will have your min bet out and the possibility of the dealer being stiff are better, split and hit. If it is +4TC 10's are thicker, so your chances of two hands of 18 vs the dealers 20 are better, and you have some serious cash out. The indice is +8 from what you have been told, and the closer to this number you get the less you will lose by playing this risk aversive play. Over a million hand sim it is clear which way to play this hand, no question.

Consult ZenGrifer's loosy goosy indice number treatise.

It doesn't matter what you have.
Posted by deZerTomB on 10-Jun-2004 08:07:57 (#8703)

play a few hundred thousand hands on your puter and you'll see.

practice, practice, practice.

learn all the indexes & try different spreads. I like to practice with the same table minimums and conditions(penetration)as what I play. I even tried 50% penetration like the indian casinos around here and proved to myself it's a COMPLETE waste of time and money. And it didn't take long. hehe.

That's
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Jun-2004 10:19:56 (#8709)

what they want all counters to think. Can you track? You may be able to get a good edge that way. Otherwise, stay home and become a Bonus Bandit!!

Eye eye yeye yeyeeeeee.....
I am a Bonus Bandito!!

surrender?
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 10-Jun-2004 10:01:17 (#8708)

Would surrender be a better option if they offer it? With the count that high?

Yes *NM*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Jun-2004 10:45:57 (#8711)

It sure would
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Jun-2004 15:56:27 (#8720)

Yes HO2 players surrender 88 vs. X at +2. In fact I just did it this morning. Turned a $1300 losing session into merely losing $1200.

There are so many valuable surrender indexes for a HO2 player that I'm now very hesitant to play a shoe game that doesn't offer LSR, just like I never play a H17 shoe game without a really good reason.

Royam, Calc HousEdge HERE *LINK*
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Jun-2004 11:47:01 (#8712)

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/conseq/rules.htm

Ps, ALWAYS factor in PENETRATION before detirming whether a game is playable. For example a bad-rules game with great penetration is much better that a great rules game with bad penetration... for counters that is. zg

Thanks all for answers and links on 8-8 v. T *NM*
Posted by Royam on 10-Jun-2004 12:43:14 (#8715)

Finally got my green chip Kelly bankroll
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Jun-2004 22:50:03 (#8731)

It's called a home equity line of credit. In other words, I mortgaged my house to play blackjack.

2nd Mortgage?
Posted by MrPill on 10-Jun-2004 23:07:35 (#8733)

AM,

One of the basic guidlines of card counting:

"DO NOT BET MORE THAN YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOOSE!"

I would have to classify a 2nd mortgage on your home as money that falls into this class.

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!

Pill

I agree
Posted by revereman on 11-Jun-2004 09:12:55 (#8736)

I hope you were kidding, Automatic. Even at relatively low interest rates, it is not wise to "bet the house." At the green chip level, it's pretty easy to lose $5k or $10k (or more) fairly quickly, if you are spreading correctly. And if you can't play at that level without spreading correctly, you shouldn't be playing at that level. Red flags all over the place.

I hear you
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Jun-2004 10:21:39 (#8737)

Well, I got a checkbook, where I can write checks and pay back the money at any time, so interest isn't much of an issue. Now according to my sims I have less than a 0.01% risk of ruin which would be considered AAA rated paper by any rating agency. Either I believe in the math of counting, or I don't.

Anyway, I'm playing my game and I'm well into the black, with enough cash on hand that there is a less than a 5% chance of me ever having to touch the part of my bankroll that is my house. So if that time ever comes, I will reconsider and reflect on the advice offered here. At that point I might be too disgusted to continue playing! But I do now feel a lot less stress when playing, knowing I am betting at Kelly.

Caution
Posted by ZOD on 11-Jun-2004 19:31:11 (#8753)

I believe in the math, too. But speaking as someone who is IN a long losing streak, I can happily say that my bad variance won't result in me sleeping under a bridge. Please tread carefully.

Best,

ZOD

I disagree
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Jun-2004 10:39:45 (#8738)

A home equity loan is an excellent adjunct to a skilled counter's BR, as is casino 'credit' zg

Agree with your disagree
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 11-Jun-2004 11:32:50 (#8740)

A home equity line of credit (H.E.L.O.C) is a really hot set-up. Everyone should have one up to max line on their home for many reasons. They cost very little to set up and cost nothing except only when they are being used. They are also called a 'revolving line of credit'. Meaning it is flexable and can be paid down to 0 at any time then ran back up again. You can even have a plastic credit card attached to it, resulting in tax deductable interest.

Wrong
Posted by revereman on 11-Jun-2004 11:44:15 (#8742)

The interest on a HELOC, by definition (in most cases)is tax deductible. It has nothing to with a credit card. In fact, cerdit card interest is longer tax deductible.
And, as in my answer to ZG below, it's not wise to play BJ with money that you can't afford to lose.

I don't advocate...
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Jun-2004 11:59:08 (#8743)

...playing with money that a counter can't afford to lose. I do advocate any method that increases BR liquidity. zg

Smart money
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 12-Jun-2004 09:35:16 (#8761)

I keep hearing this:

Don't play with money that we can't afford to lose.

This is a very good rule to abide by. However, borrowed money is NOT necessarily money we cannot afford. How do we define money that we cannot lose? Think of it this way; Does it make better sense to have our BJ money in a special bank account earning .75% or does it make better sense to have it stored in our mortgage saving us 3.5% to 8% with a tax benie?

I've seen times where I borrowed $ at 18% to buy real estate. Now that real estate is worth many times more than was paid.

If the math works, why not borrow for anything that makes more money?

P.S. We can get a plastic card that is attached to some HELOCs that can be used to buy anything a credit card can buy and the interest is tax deductible because the HELOC is attached to our home.

And what would happen
Posted by revereman on 15-Jun-2004 09:22:15 (#8806)

if the real estate you purchased with borrowed money at 18% went down in value? What happened to people who borrowed money to buy stocks during the stock market boom and then got margin calls when the market tanked? Every person's circumstances are different but, generally speaking, it's not a good idea to fund BJ activity with borrowed money. There are no guarantees in life, and especially in BJ, no matter how good of a player you are.

I Disagree with your Disagree
Posted by revereman on 11-Jun-2004 11:40:57 (#8741)

Not to disparage Automatic Monkey in any way, I don't think he has the track record to qualify as the quality of player you are talking about. I've heard of very good players who have had long losing streaks. That money still has to be paid back (with interest)and I would think some people would then overbet trying to get back their initial losses and then get in a deeper hole. No one answer is right for everyone, but I think a good general rule is not to play with money that you can't afford to lose.

Margin as the playing bankroll
Posted by wc21 on 11-Jun-2004 21:00:26 (#8756)

Don't bet with money you cannot afford to lose; don't invest in stocks if you cannot stomach a 50% loss...

I use home equity loans to buy cars (used that are then kept for 10 years) to take the tax writeoff for the interest; I use stock margin as the total playing bankroll. Over time, equities historically prvide a 15% annual ROI. With after tax margin interest rates of 2-3%, it makes sense to stay invested all the time. Sizing max bets to 1/1000 of portfolio keeps margin below 20% (200 max bets) and prevents margin calls even with major equity price decreases.

wc21

HELOC
Posted by Feep on 11-Jun-2004 15:48:46 (#8746)

Home Equity Lines of Credit are great. I have a completely untapped one for $75K. I don't use it to play Kelly, however, I would not say it was unwise to do so under the right circumstances. For a professional or high-level player, it is free liquidity without having to have money sitting around in the bank (or house).

As I consider myself an amatuer I won't tap it. Maybe in ten years or so, but I'd rather have the up front cash, which I can build up anyways.

Feep

the real solution is to sell your home
Posted by eyesfor21 on 11-Jun-2004 22:21:48 (#8758)

Real estate prices are at all time highes in the west and east coasts.
If one is in Canada or the midwest then stay put because of
ultra slow gains in those places.
Cash out my friend. We have never seen these high gains
in real estate before and now is the time to sell.
The foreclosures rates are going to start creeping up.
The interest rates are going to start moving up in 3 weeks
too.

Then go on your 21 trips.
As far as a loan don't do it, do it with a low interest
credit card instead. As loans have heavy closing fees and credit
cards do not.

Many of my friends have done this and it worked out
quite well.But besides being great
players their discipline is the key,which would could go into
in depth.

You can get zero cost closing...
Posted by Feep on 12-Jun-2004 13:37:25 (#8762)

My HELOC is below 5% and had NO closing fees. I agree about the home prices, but the cost of moving and my low fixed rate also count for a lot. Here's hoping I don't regret that decision!

Feep

2nd Mortgage?
Posted by deZerTomB on 15-Jun-2004 08:46:29 (#8804)

so cal real estate has just gone nuts last 3 months. nothing for sale. DON'T SELL. re-fi, whatever, but hang on to your property right now. I don't know about vegas, but riverside, orange, LA counties 25%-35% gain per year. higher in spots. Make $50k/yr just paying the mortgage.

So it just depends I guess on your retirement situation.

Unless you burn through it pretty quick and you live in the sticks, there will be more where that came from. IMHO.

Your Confidence
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 15-Jun-2004 08:19:24 (#8803)

is showing! ;> I picked up a new home a year ago and the same home is selling for 50K more right now. It takes 15K for another downpayment for a new house which will take a year to build. When it is complete it will be worth around $25K more than the depo I put on it. Your money, others doing all the work for you. Best deal. People like to buy a new house and move into it, not wait a year to do so. That is a good return on investment. There is a magic # for a BJ BR related to % return expected and your ability to get the money on the felt, somewhere in the 30K 50K ballpark.

Worse case senario is you will lose everything. If you have $15US you are one of the top 8% richest people in the world. Then you'll have to coupon your ass back into the top 5%. ;>

PS Not all Canadian real estate prices are laging. Location location location is key, and the area I live in is one of those locations.

rob
Posted by eyesfor21 on 15-Jun-2004 13:25:20 (#8808)

Rob,
my friend bought a preconstruction in Vegas at the lake,and now
its almost build, the increase 25o,ooo, unreal, and if you keep it
two or more years the gain will be tax free.This gain would never
happen to this extent in Canada and the taxes would be 50%.wowza.
Canada has been appreciated at 4 %,vs CA. FL, NY,NV around 40%.

Nice
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 16-Jun-2004 07:46:04 (#8817)

Anything that happens in Canada I have to multiply by 10 to figure out what is happening in America. ;> I think that is because we were forced to go metric for the good of humanity back in the 70's or something. We have lots more lake front properties, so they are not as scarse as hen's teeth are in the desert, so once again, location is key. We both have areas where the prop values are going down, etc. I'm sure there are spots in NY that have droped -40% too. 250K could be only a 5% increase in value. Better what out who moves in next door y'all. That can do more damage than a hurry cane.

www.mitblackjack.com has opened *NM*
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 11-Jun-2004 14:20:00 (#8745)

Four advantage players seen together!
Posted by Sonny on 11-Jun-2004 16:31:52 (#8747)

HA! I like the new picture on the homepage under New Items. Is that directly from the Griffin book?

-Sonny-

How should a counter behave?
Posted by Royam on 11-Jun-2004 16:38:30 (#8748)

This picture with half the guys wearing classy shoes and the other half wearing sport shoes reminds me of one thing I was wondering about: how should a counter behave not to be found out?

Some say to make yourself known, get friendly with dealer/pit-bosses, claim comps, etc... Others say to play a low profile and try to remain unnoticed...

I can see advantages in both ways, but would like opinions of experienced players.

Thanks for sharing your views.

Royam

Depends on your style of play
Posted by Sonny on 11-Jun-2004 17:15:20 (#8749)

If you are going to be jumping in and out of games looking for high counts, you are better off tyring to be invisible. The hit and run approach works well for Wonging.

If you are going to be playing through the pitch games at high stakes, you will need to be friendly with the pit. They will be watching you. You will need to throw them off the trail, or at least distract them enough so that they don't notice your play.

-Sonny-

One thing I don't understand is...
Posted by Royam on 11-Jun-2004 18:29:26 (#8750)

Some people say they are well known in a casino, they have established relationship with dealers or even pit bosses...

I see how you can try to play the high roller with much money and play big once or twice and win without it raising suspicion, but then when staff gets to know you and you regularly win, friendly or not, they should begin to wonder if you're not counting...

On the other hand, if you wong and table-hop, unless you hit a few tables then change casino, they should begin to realize that Mr. X is strangely sitting on a table only when it is favorable...

Puzzled Royam O_o

Unpuzzled
Posted by ZOD on 11-Jun-2004 19:12:54 (#8752)

I spend most of my blackjack time playing at casinos where I am known by name. Generally, I selectively wong out when the count goes bad, you know, cell phone calls, bathroom breaks, flirting with the waitresses, and such. When other players ask about playing decisions, they are frequently advised by dealers and the pit to "ask Mr. ZOD" because he "plays all the time." In the long run, being liked at the table is a whole lot better than being thought of as a jerk.

Of course, they'd still kick me out if they knew what I was doing. So I constantly remind them of a few weeks ago when they kicked the crap out of me. I downplay my wins. And I always, always, filch away chips. Their computer says I'm a loser and the comps keep coming.

By the way, this is just one perspective. What works for me may nail someone else. I just want to play a few hours a week and pick up a dollar or two. I imagine that pros might have a different take on the matter.

Best,

ZOD

Hmm... interesting view.
Posted by Royam on 11-Jun-2004 20:09:35 (#8754)

Now I see at least one good way to handle it.

Just one other thing if I may ask: what do you mean by "filch chips away"? is it that you remove chips from the table (another poster noted how he got caught doing it)or do you put chips in your pockets when moving from table to table?

Then another stupid question (tell me when my weekly quota of stupid questions is reached!) how does the computer keep track of your being a looser/winner? Example: if you first buy chips for $1000, play a few hours, win $1000 and stick $1600 in your pockets, then cash out $400, will they know it and put you down as a $600 looser? Then just send a friend to cash out the rest?

Thanks for sharing your experience,

Less-puzzled Royam

To filch
Posted by ZOD on 11-Jun-2004 20:49:09 (#8755)

filch--to steal, especially something of small value; to pilfer

As far as the computer keeping track, it's pretty much as you described, except at lower denominations. In my case, I filch green chips. It's surprising how one or two each shoe (whether winning or losing) can add up over time.

Best,

ZOD

Hmm... very interesting.
Posted by Royam on 11-Jun-2004 21:11:25 (#8757)

Your tips are very valuable to me because I don't see me as a pro any time soon, but I'd like to be able to play (and win) without being barred in an area where there are few casinos, all of them very small.

It would thus not be possible to stay anonymous very long (especially because some of them require you to show your passport to gamble!), so your technique seems to be a good solution for me.

The chips filching is the palm thing that was mentioned in another thread? I remember doing it with coins when I was doing magic tricks as a kid...

Royam

Magic
Posted by ZOD on 12-Jun-2004 08:48:56 (#8760)

"The chips filching is the palm thing that was mentioned in another thread? I remember doing it with coins when I was doing magic tricks as a kid... "

Yeah, so did I. Funny how little skills like that can come in handy now.

Best,

ZOD

swallowing checques off a game...
Posted by gehrig on 13-Jun-2004 12:27:36 (#8767)

works if your wagers are average for that game. if one or two other players are wagering at the same level... green or black, then a few such checques are hard to trace. mucking green checques off a table when you are the only green player is obvious. pitstiffs frequently stare at players' piles, after scanning/tallying the dealer rack (checque !). freebie: do not neatly stack/arrange your pile. obviously the 'stiff knows the table's opening number (and the mid-shift table counts). if their player evaluation notes are accurate (win/loss/color-ups/buy-ins), it's an easy calculation. if there is a shortage, there are only a couple of scenarios... the dealer didn't announce a color up or drop, the player walked without coloring up (without a color-up, the dealer is always asked after that player leaves as to how much he walked with), the player or dealer took the checques off the table, or the pitstiff missed recording a buy-in ("drop"). for small shortages, the dealer may be leaned on for not protecting the game. if the table is significantly light, the pitstiff might be the fall guy. of course, surveillance could be called to review the play. moves to muck off the game are usually obvious in slo-mo. i prefer to use the act rather than sleight of hand, to bury checques.

Burp
Posted by ZOD on 14-Jun-2004 19:00:32 (#8787)

Good points all. Filching is an important part of my play, but still has to be done with care. If I may ask, what exactly did you mean by "i prefer to use the act rather than sleight of hand, to bury checques."? The "act"?

Best,

ZOD

Thx Gehrig
Posted by Royam on 14-Jun-2004 19:05:31 (#8788)

Now that you mention it, I must admit that filching chips at the tables must be hazardous. Even if you fool the dealer and the pit boos, you can't fool the eye. I guess that the best solution would be to "forget" some of your chips in your pockets when coming back from the men's room or even while changing table.

But do I understand correctly that dealers report with how much you left their table? if so, it would mean that if you cannot manage to filch chips from the table, then there would be no point in puting some in your pockets later as the casino would know your hiding them somewhere?

Royam

missing checques...
Posted by gehrig on 14-Jun-2004 21:39:54 (#8793)

the dealer is usually asked the total of the *seen*/pile when a player refuses to color-up, or just abruptly leaves, ostensibly to play at another table. since the play of the game becomes rote with beaucoup table time, it permits the player to watch the watchers. i like to innocently observe the pitstiffs' activities. that includes their staring at players' checque piles. you've all heard the 'stiff ask a dealer what some dude walked with, after a quick exit. often the amount might be incorrect as i had "cyphered" (j. bodine).

as to using one's act to do anything while on stage/in casino...that's to be learned on the job. the most serious scrutiny may be from afar, the cameras or a 'stiff across the pit. and some of us have enjoyed the fellow who sneaks up behind the player, observing from the aisle.

i recall playing at the old maxim (now, casuarina). i joined a single deck table with one other seated player. i noticed out of the corner of the eye, that a suit was standing in the aisle behind the fellow in center field. the suit was orchestrating the shuffle ups. i stuck around, flat bet playing awhile to enjoy the "floor show". this table was the only one open in the pit. after a few rounds, i carefully inquired as to what was up. the player said..."oh, they think i'm counting cards". i stifled the obvious..."what's that ?".

similarly, in the first hour of the venetian opening morning (20 minutes to 1:00am), i saw a suit hawk a game from the aisle. he stood in back of an obvious counter, who soon got the 86. i've told that story a couple of times before on these 21 sites. coolest thing was that the obvious counter possibly has the record of the first, fastest 86 from a joint's grand opening. as i recollect, he was bounced within 30 minutes of the joint opening the doors.

Selling cheques to players
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Jun-2004 23:30:13 (#8797)

Sometimes when a player sits down to buy in during a hand I will offer him cheques and take his cash. This speeds up the game (always advantageous) and gives me a way to take cheques off the table. Of course they see this but it's one more thing for them to keep track of.

I also rathole in the bathroom. If they're watching they will catch you, but if they don't have a reason to be specifically looking for ratholing they will never notice. Then there's the jive with keeping your cheques in a coin bucket, but at my regular stores they know I know better than to do that so that will wear thin quickly.

Don't rathole black.

selling chips
Posted by suicyco maniac on 15-Jun-2004 20:20:04 (#8811)

I too like to use this ploy but at times have been yelled at by dealers and pit saying its "illegal" YA RIGHT!! SM

it is illegal.
Posted by gehrig on 15-Jun-2004 21:09:09 (#8812)

the issue is that the casinos are given limited latitude when issuing checques or tokens. usta be that checques could be used all over town...restaurants, cabs, bars. no longer. that the checques might be used other than between the casino and the guest would constitute counterfeiting.

Interesting *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 15-Jun-2004 22:10:56 (#8813)

If you could only see us in action you would
Posted by Learning to count on 14-Jun-2004 19:06:29 (#8789)

see an academy award act.

That is what scares me...
Posted by Royam on 14-Jun-2004 19:22:28 (#8792)

I have no doubt in my ability to learn the technical aspects of counting. I have however, never been a born actor. I might have to find a set-up where I hide my winnings in a smart way, because more acting might be too much for me.

Well, it all depends on what you mean by acting... is it the type of acting depicted in "Bringing Down the House"?

Royam

Cut Card Effect
Posted by Invictus on 13-Jun-2004 03:51:51 (#8763)

Still surviving out here in Iraq and in between the mess getting my blackjack skills imporved. While reading K-O Blackjack for the third or fourth time I came across the cut card effect again on page 56. Wondering what you all think in general about this "subtle nuance." Any opinions would be of interest to me. From somewhere in Iraq, Invictus.

Not worth the effort
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Jun-2004 15:13:32 (#8770)

Though the cut-card effect is real and meaningful, it is not worth worrying about. But when you have a deeply dealt game, having a cut card can also help you out quite a bit. Namely, a cut card does not allow the dealer to "preferntially shuffle" on you, which probabably has just as much positive value (or more) than the cut-card effect is negative.

Upshot -- if you find a good game, play it, cut card or not!

--Mayor

Greetings Invictus!
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Jun-2004 17:46:47 (#8783)

Good to hear from you. zg

Update
Posted by Invictus on 15-Jun-2004 05:06:08 (#8799)

So far studying is going well zengrifter. Keeping my head down and the count positive here in Iraq.

I Work
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Jun-2004 21:51:39 (#8869)

with one of your countrymen bud. My heart goes out to the innocent people in your country, and I hope that some time soon you will have stability and peace soon. He is trying to help out by bringing people over here (Canada) with a church and community centre that I have worked on with him.

Wishing you and your family a better life,
Rob McGarvey

Max Rubin -- Who is this guy ?
Posted by John on 13-Jun-2004 11:04:27 (#8764)

I can't believe it. That commentator on World Series of Blackjack. I just saw him on some show called "player's world" on the Mens channel. I never watch that channel but was channel surfing. He said that 6:5 blackjack is a "great game for the inexperienced player because the professionals tend to stay away from that game". Huh? Why would I, as a ploppy, care if a professional is playing at my table?

He was saying that 6:5 is a great game but stay away from deuces wild video poker. I feel like breaking something. Ok ....get a grip.

two alternative conclusions...
Posted by gehrig on 13-Jun-2004 12:04:49 (#8765)

1] he's a sap. that conclusion is supported by his statements regarding 21 play... like "taking insurance is a sucker bet". last week, i insured a hard 5, earning raised eyebrows from the couple other seated players. that sucker bet saved me $40.

2] he's no more than a shill for the gaming industry. this is likely since his literary prowess seems to relate to playing for comps. only playing for comps is dead from the get-go. using a joint's comp system for miniscule freebies and more importantly, added cover, is an aspect of advantaged play. of course, making "authoritative" statements which one knows not to be true, is dishonest.

bottom line is that he's either an imbecile or dishonest. no matter whichever, is sufficient to reduce his commentary to ground noise. does anyone notice a similarity of his "authoritative" comments to those of john patrick ?

Rubin knows better
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 14-Jun-2004 12:32:45 (#8777)

It is an absolute disgrace along with being very unethical and dishonest when a professional authoritative person in the industry broadcasts to his listeners a lie that will on average cost players extra $ as a result of his advise.

Max Rubin, shame on you! I believe you're not so ignorant as to give players such bad advise accidentally.

then he's no more than a stooge for the gaming industry.
Posted by gehrig on 14-Jun-2004 12:41:20 (#8778)

therein verifies the similarity of stooge-rubin and john patrick. each uses casino provided settings to espouse patently defective strategies, at the expense of the casino guest.

perhaps his shilling for the joints is the essence of his "comp city". the more rubes he steers into the joints armed with ineffective weapons, the more comps *he* gets.

Idiots throw wrenches in the gears every time
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 13-Jun-2004 12:21:24 (#8766)

What a stupid ignorant man. I feel like breaking something too.

Max Rubin is not an idiot.
Posted by Titaniumman on 13-Jun-2004 14:03:23 (#8769)

He is a very savvy entity in the casino gambling world.

Max is the author of Comp City. This is a book you should have in your blackjack library. It teaches you all about the comp systems, and how to maximize your comps. The book has a good bit of focus on earning comps playing blackjack, even for the advantage player.

Max also hosts the infamous "Blackjack Ball" which is an exclusive event for celebrities in the gaming world.

Max also writes for Casino Player, which is a polished monthly magazine for the avid casino gambler who is not necessarily an advantage player. Due to its lucrative casino advertising, CP accordingly does not wish to offend the interests of the casinos.

Arnold Snyder had a column in the magazine called Ask the Bishop, which was discontinued because Arnold's answers to questions were, shall we say, not in the best interests of the casinos. Arnold has begun to have articles in CP again due to readership demand.

If this is true about Max hawking 6:5, then I am disappointed in him. I would not be too surprised that he is influenced by the casino industry, but this is going too far. One thing I have learned, no matter how good the blackjack book or product someone creates, that person's character is an independent matter.

If anybody else has information about this, please post it. I would also be very interested if anybody knew when this episode would be broadcast again so that I could record it.

I think Al Rogers should also be advised of this.

This Tuesday 9pm - 9:30 pm
Posted by John on 14-Jun-2004 04:09:37 (#8773)

Players world is on this Tuesday on the Men's Channel. I think it is the same episode. Max Rubin is on at the very end of it. He only talks for maybe 5 minutes. He answers questions that this blonde asks him. I knew from the beginning that it was paid for by casinos but I couldn't figure out why they were giving basic strategy advice until I found out about the plug for 6:5 blackjack.

The basic strategy advice isn't that good. They advise doubling an 11 on anything 9 or lower. I guess you shouldn't double an 11 vs 10 . Also, I got a quick glance at one of the basic strategy cards and I swear it advised doubling a 9 against anything between a 4 and 6. Three isn't important.

There's more but I won't ruin it for you. It is going to make you angry when you get done watching it. I was cussing at the end. No one was home at the time.

BTW, I got the dish network and I'm not sure what other networks it is on.

9pm Central Time zone *NM*
Posted by John on 14-Jun-2004 04:10:31 (#8774)

A Wonger hurts the ploppies
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Jun-2004 10:26:35 (#8776)

It's true that a Wonger does hurt the ploppies. But I do give Basic Strategy advice to ploppies at the table so that more than makes up for my leaving them with extra hands to play during lousy counts. It certainly isn't worth it to play 6:5 to keep the Wongers away, this guy is nuts.

Selling the American Dream
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 15-Jun-2004 07:24:30 (#8802)

to the ploppies is not the same as recomending to a polished gambler the game of 6:5 Jerkjack. Max has his place, nows his shit, but also knows its easier to make money from a casino by being on their payroll that working their tables. LV is full of sharks that will sell you their sister for a steak, champagne, and a free limo ride. Hell, even in your home town you can find people like that. Easiest way to spot them is by their quick tongue and convincing attitude. Smile, say thanks, and tell them you have your own sister. ;>

Sunday morning wisdom
Posted by Royam on 13-Jun-2004 12:53:27 (#8768)

Q: how long does it take before you got to flip your pancakes to have them cooked properly?

A: the time it takes for a beginner to count through a single deck.

Royam, looking forward to the day he'll be eating raw pancakes on Sunday mornings ;)

P.S. I'd be interested to know who's using which counting system, because I had chosen halves count and am now reading "The world's greatest BJ book" and the author keeps saying Hi-Opt I is the best (it's an old book though, maybe outdated?). One thing he says and that seems valid is that aces should be counted as 0 for playing strategy and as 1 for betting strategy. Therefore the best would be to use Hi-Opt I and later add a separate ace count for betting purposes... Any comment?

not a fan of side counts
Posted by John on 13-Jun-2004 22:30:20 (#8771)

I'm not a fan of side counts. Some people use them but I think it is too much to keep track of. I happen to have a normal IQ. Peter Griffin, in his Theory of Blackjack, states that using a side count of 6s,7s, or 8s would greatly increase a player's playing efficiency. Keeping a side count of Aces with the Hi-opt I would increase your betting efficiency. How long can you keep something like that up is the question you need to ask? I'm usually only on the table when I have the advantage so a side count really doesn't help me much.

Hi-opt I with a side count of say the 2 and A would make it the Hi-Lo count of course with the playing efficiency of the Hi-Opt I. If you have the brain to do this, I would go one step further and learn the Hi-Opt II with an Ace side count. I believe Automatic can help you with that, maybe. You would really want to have a side count if you are planning on playing all, and if you are planning on playing double deck or single deck. Playing efficiency won't help you all that much on 6 deck and 8 deck games. Also, if you are planning on playing high stakes, I would definitely not use the Hi-Opt I because I don't feel it is powerful enough.

I used to look at what count had a better score but now it is just a matter of personal preference of what feels comfortable.

Also, don't believe anything that Max Rubin says. Avoid him. That should be my signature.

I agree
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Jun-2004 10:22:56 (#8775)

If you are playing shoe, I would not recommend either Hi-Opt without the ace sidecount because in shoe you need a very large spread, and the larger the spread, the more important your betting correlation is. Halves is a difficult count without the sidecount but if you can handle it you've got yourself a very powerful system for shoe. After it's easy for you you can add an ace sidecount to increase your insurance correlation.

Sunday evening wisdom
Posted by Sonny on 13-Jun-2004 22:32:19 (#8772)

> P.S. I'd be interested to know who's using which counting system...

I use the Hi-Opt II. It uses the ace side count, so the playing efficiency is higher than an ace-reckoned system. Using the side count brings the betting efficiency from .91 to around .97 so you don't lose anything by not counting the aces in the main count. The side count is a little tricky for shoe games, but I think it is definately worth the effort.

Check out this website for a more in-depth comparison:

http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

>...because I had chosen halves count and am now reading "The world's greatest
> BJ book" and the author keeps saying Hi-Opt I is the best (it's an old book
> though, maybe outdated?).

The book is outdated. Many of the win rates are not applicable in today's games, the sections on cheating are overblown and some of the advice is a bit silly (like avoiding "mean looking" dealers). Still, the systems are good.

> One thing he says and that seems valid is that aces should be counted as 0
> for playing strategy and as 1 for betting strategy. Therefore the best would
> be to use Hi-Opt I and later add a separate ace count for betting purposes...
> Any comment?

The HI-Opt I is a good system, but without the side count it is very inefficient and hardly worth the effort. You might be better off using HI-Low. It is much more effective and you can always add a side count later.

-Sonny-

Interpretation of laws on devices
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Jun-2004 17:41:18 (#8779)

We all know it's illegal to use a device at the table for counting or shuffle tracking. But what I'd like to know is how far removed we need to be from the game in order to legally use it.

For me to use a shuffle tracking computer while at the table is an illegal use of a device. For me to take shuffle info and use it with my computer at home to analyze the shuffle is a legal use of a device. OK there are our endpoints. Now suppose I take some card count data into the bathroom and enter it into a Palm computer, get back to the table before it's my turn to cut and use the result from the Palm to determine where to put the cut card. Is that illegal? My guess is 'no', because there is no law against using a computer in the bathroom. Even more importantly there is no way to prove exactly what I was doing in the stall. Now what if I go over to the slots between shoes and use my computer? That's a bit trickier.

Device Law in Nevada...
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Jun-2004 17:44:00 (#8781)

... is constitutionally flawed and has yet to be sufficiently tested. The way its written, if a neophyte player uses me at the table to indicate bet-size and plays, I could be the device! zg

Casinos sell such devices
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Jun-2004 23:08:10 (#8794)

Casino shops have in the past ( I don't know if they still do) sell Basic Strategy cards. That's a device.

If I were to do something like this, first I would have to be convinced it was at least theoretically legal. Then I would make an analog nomograph instead of actually using a Palm or something. Partially because I like nomographs and they are quick to use, but also because if caught I'd love to see the rejects in the security department puzzling and trying to figure out just what the heck this thing is and does.

Also a business opportunity, I could analyze shuffles and set them to little cardboard nomographs that I could sell, a different one for each casino.

The law is particular to mechanical devices
Posted by Learning to count on 14-Jun-2004 23:20:39 (#8795)

and or devices that can give the player information that is not available until the time of decision of who is the winner. In other words only after the wager has been made and the game played then thatinfo will/can be shown. A players card only gives you information of how to play what is in front of you at the table. What do they teach dealers anyway???? It seems that the lack of the correct information is what is hurting the casino industry. They train the front line not to think only react. Sad state of affairs for an industry that has set records this year in profits. The other side of this is that the common gambler is truely a fool and believes/trained that losing money is entertainment. The industry has not only trained monkeys but has also trained the hand that feeds it.

you're half right...
Posted by gehrig on 14-Jun-2004 23:35:48 (#8798)

devise a card with basic strategy for maybe a 6 deck game, a chart with the casino holds on roulette, video poker percentages versus pay glass numbers, even a dice wager vig chart. meld them with some of the outcall escort/massage service flyers. sounds like a win-win. if you distribute them just north of the venetian, on the east side of the strip, that'd be wynn-wynn. even a husband when accompanied by his bride would take one...for the "strategy value". and one of those folded in half lengthwise, with some lass' keyster showing, stuffed in the "advantage" player's shirt pocket be da kine mo betta camouflage than the usual suspect parlay card or deceased keno ticket. aina' ?

Nomograph?
Posted by CanKen on 15-Jun-2004 18:02:11 (#8809)

What is an "analog nomograph". I can't find "nomograph" in my dictionaries, and I hate not knowing what a word means.

Nomograph
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Jun-2004 20:13:44 (#8810)

It's a two-dimensional representation of a mathematical equation and it's solution. Basically, a chart. A slide rule is a form of nomograph and because it can have several slides and scales it is a very powerful one. Line up the parameters and get your answer.

If I were to make a shuffle tracking nomograph, I would analyze a shuffle, let's say for a 6 deck shoe. I'd then have 6 pieces of cardboard or paper on which I would align the true counts at the end of each deck, and there would be an indicator on each piece that would then point to the estimated true count for each deck after the shuffle. Let's say I printed it all on $20 bills. To the eye I would just look like a guy playing with his money at the table. If someone were to inspect the bills and see they're marked, they'd see some cryptic markings and unless they knew exactly how to use the nomograph they'd have no clue how it works and couldn't prove a thing. About 15 years ago in a physics class I had a slide rule and I was the only student in there who knew what to do with it, and these guys are all of top notch intelligence. I don't think I would have much to worry about from casino security guys!

On the other hand, with enough practice I could probably memorize the matrix operations used to solve for the true counts of the shuffled shoe, and that practice might take less time than constructing the nomograph. Just a fun idea.

Also called "nomogram"... maybe that's in your dictionary. *NM*
Posted by Dog Hand on 02-Jul-2004 00:26:55 (#9058)

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#8780)

Based on that chart...
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Jun-2004 17:45:33 (#8782)

... and other data, UBZen looks like the best balance between power and ease. zg

Thanks zg
Posted by Royam on 14-Jun-2004 17:55:04 (#8784)

As you say, Unb. Zen 11 seems to be a good balance between efficiency and simplicity. Based on this chart, Zent count might even be a bit better, but also significantly more complicated, for a reason not apparent when reading this chart (maybe a side-count?).

I'll try to read more about the different systems before I keep training because this is not very efficient to learn a new system every week!

I will receive a bunch of books to read next weekend.

Royam

What I don't like about unbalanced counts
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Jun-2004 23:20:53 (#8796)

I've experimented with them, and although they have some advantages (like higher average BC due to not having the need to fudge the numbers for "balance") they have a few disadvantages too. Like accuracy of index numbers for one- unless you want to learn all new numbers for 4, 6, and 8 deck shoes there are going to be inaccuracies porting your indexes from one type of game to another. You're also going to have difficulties in determining a Wong-out point if you Wong, and powerful add-ons like shuffle tracking are going to have to be heavily worked to make them usable with an unbalanced count. So I'd rather just do the division (which I find to be easy) and not have to worry about any of that other stuff. My HO2 system can be used with any multideck S17 DAS game with no modifications at all.

a few questions
Posted by Royam on 15-Jun-2004 06:59:56 (#8800)

What does it mean unbalanced ? is it that the Unb. Zen 11 has a total of + 4 when you count through a deck, as opposed to Zen Count for instance who would be balanced (0 total)?

The problems you�re talking about (lower index correlation, wonging issue, etc.) refer to the fact that you�re using numbers that were initially made for other systems? If yes, are there not equivalent numbers for all systems? If so, a beginner would just have to learn the right set of indexes that fits with his system, no?

Then, what is the �division� you�re talking about?

And finally, how does the Hi-Opt II work? It has an ace side-count, right?

Many questions, sorry, but still try to have the big picture and see what system to learn.

First I read about Hi-Low with an ace side count. I found it rather tricky to keep track of the aces.

Then I read about the Halves Count. I trained for at least 2-3 hours (like 4 or more sessions of 30 min) and still do not always get the right count when I count the cards 2 at a time, although I am not quick yet (takes me like 45 sec to go through a deck). Not saying I�m getting discouraged, just that maybe this is not the right system for me as I am learning pretty slowly. I prefer to try to find the right system and not learn too many and mix up everything!

Royam

Balanced vs. unbalanced
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Jun-2004 09:20:47 (#8805)

Yes, in an unbalanced count the sum of all the weights of the cards in a deck is not zero. So you start with an initial offset which is particular to the number of decks in the game, and when you've gotten to the bottom of the shoe the running count is zero. The card or cards which create the unbalance act as a sort of clock throughout the shoe.

The problem with the indexes is that the initial running count is going to be different for shoes with different numbers of decks. Let's use the most important index as an example, 16 vs 10.

In Hi-Opt II, in this situation you stand when the count is above 1 and draw when it's below 1. Let's say I'm playing a 4 deck shoe, that would correspond to two 5's being removed from the deck. On an 8 deck shoe it would correspond to four 5's being removed.

We'll use KO as an example, 4 deck shoe, the initial running count will be -16 (I think), removing two 5's gives you a RC of -14. If you are playing an 8 deck shoe, the IRC is -32, and removing four 5's gives you a count of -28. But both situations are supposed to be played the same way when you have a 16 vs. 10. So you have to do a division or learn different sets of numbers for different shoe sizes. Wonging out will be a nightmare, you not only have to do a division but estimate what point you are at in the shoe and if you've been playing an unbalanced count all the time you're not going to be good at doing that. Just my opinion, but I'd rather do the division and deck estimation up front, get used to it, then I'll be just fine from DD to 8D.

Hi-Opt II can be played without a sidecount but it's BC isn't very strong that way. A lot of players use letters to keep track of the aces.

KO not too hard
Posted by creatureman on 16-Jun-2004 12:00:23 (#8821)

On 6d KO has an exit srategy ex leave if count drops to -22 after 1 deck dealt. and -17 after 2 . Also the important indices are bye the key count and pivot

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#8786)

IMHO:
Posted by Learning to count on 14-Jun-2004 19:18:29 (#8790)

""It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:

1. In projecting the outcome of the game;

2. In keeping track of the cards played;

3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or

4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game, except as permitted by the commission.""

To use means any device that allows the person to gain an advantage to wit: win at the game. Intent means that the device is rigged to attain an advantage or a way to beat the game. In summation if the device allows you to beat the game then it is illegal. ZG is right the law is vague and open to interpetation. Past case law does identify certain devices such as a mirror and even a computer. This law is open to allow for more discovery/definitions of new devices. Its a devious way to write a law. Especially in Nevada where historically the courts have sided for the casinos. Also if you cross the thresh hold of a casino with such a deice then your in violation of the law.

It Pays to DISCOVER......
Posted by phantom007 on 16-Jun-2004 02:05:40 (#8815)

A while back I received an offer from Discover Card to add 1-3 people to my "Real Name" Discover Card Account. "THEY" could use the Card, but said use would be billed to ME.

Hmmm!

Did NOT require an address, SSN, etc., JUST A NAME!

I REALLY thought about a nice name such as "Eliot Jacobson", but I figured that there are probably several hundred of us already using same.

When we get caught CC'ing, and PC demands to know your name, just say "Eliot Jacobson"! If WE CC's would ALL become E.J. when caught, then the MAYOR could again sink into the depths of obscurity....and make more $$$.

ANYHOW, I made up a name such as "E. JACK ULATION", and sent it in, then pretty much forgot about the whole issue.

TODAY, in MY mail, Mr. E. JACK ULATION received his own Discover Card!

The cover letter said something to the effect of:

"Dear Mr. Ulation:

phantom007 has entrusted you with the use of his account. Enclosed, please find your card. Proper use of your credit....blah, blah, blah."

GRIN!

phantom007.

My dumb question of the day:
Posted by Royam on 16-Jun-2004 06:56:35 (#8816)

What is a discovery card?

Some type of credit card? If so, how could you get one in the first hand under a pseudo like Phantom007?

Royam

What is a discovery card?
Posted by deZerTomB on 16-Jun-2004 08:49:29 (#8818)

yes it's a credit card. get the first one in your real name, then get the second in a fake name. I don't have discover, but get pre-approved apps.

My favorite name is Adolph Oliver Busch.

Sir, You are obviously either New to this Board, or a Troll.....
Posted by phantom007 on 17-Jun-2004 18:48:57 (#8842)

Quite simply, many of us CC's are trying to find ways to play BJ in a name that is not our own. Having a Fake I.D. is good, and reportedly, easy ( I have not accomplished that feat yet). Having a FAKE CREDIT CARD, i.e., a VALID ONE!, is more difficult!

I simply got mine, i.e., the FAKE CC....just trying to share.

No, the "Discovery" card was not issued to "phantom007"...it was issued to "E. Jacobson".

GRIN....again!

phantom007.

This works with most credit cards
Posted by Sonny on 16-Jun-2004 10:43:57 (#8820)

I have a few VISA cards like this. I got the first one in my real name (Eliot Jacobson of course!), then a few months later I asked for another card in my "brother-in-law's" name that would be billed to my account. The bank was more than happy to give me twice the chance of going into debt.

The nice thing about this particular card is that it has my picture in the corner so a casino doesn't ask to see ID along with it.

-Sonny-

question
Posted by John on 17-Jun-2004 18:10:47 (#8840)

And they accept that as ID ? You can get a players card with that????

answer
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Jun-2004 18:15:59 (#8841)

No. They want to see a government-issued ID card.

AGREE!......
Posted by phantom007 on 17-Jun-2004 18:55:47 (#8843)

Over the last year, I have noted that most LV and Tunica shops now require "photo I.D." when checking in and/or cashing coupons and/or using comps.

A valid photo I.D. is needed. Now, if it is a valid "imitation", and backed by a valid but fake "DISCOVERY CARD", then so be it.

Desparate times call for Desparate Actions!

Eliot Jacobson, B.S, B.A., phantom007.D.

MGM Mandalay Bay merger
Posted by deZerTomB on 16-Jun-2004 09:02:44 (#8819)

MGM Mandalay Bay merger. This can't be good for cc'ers and competition on the strip. Will all the properties involved have basically all the same games, rules, penetration, 6-5, csm, etc.?

Any thoughts, opinions, propaganda or just plain old BS on what this merger will do to bj on the strip?

Merger
Posted by Big Cowboy on 16-Jun-2004 17:47:22 (#8823)

http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/16/news/fortune500/mgm_mandalay.reut/index.htm

This can't be good for the advantage player.

Even more beatable now!
Posted by Sonny on 16-Jun-2004 18:04:22 (#8824)

"The deal comes less than two weeks after Mandalay stunned Wall Street with quarterly results that showed tourists were still flocking to Las Vegas after more than a year of strong improvement."

If you can't beat 'em, buy stock in 'em. That's where the real advantage play is. I've never been barred by a board of trustees before.

-Sonny-

bj techiques
Posted by Tracey Waterman on 16-Jun-2004 16:43:08 (#8822)

is there techiques that will burn card by playing to two hand on shoe or double deck to get a positive count.

I Don't Understand What You are Asking *NM*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Jun-2004 06:51:33 (#8825)

wong out
Posted by deZerTomB on 17-Jun-2004 08:08:19 (#8826)

in other words,he's asking: is there a way to burn cards in a negative count to get to a positive count by playing two hands. I wouldn't think so because you double your negative ev playing 2 hands in a neg count. Best thing is to wong out till next shuffle if the count gets too bad. Bathroom, silent cell phone call or just put your hands up, "no mas".

wong-out may be best, but...
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Jun-2004 10:54:50 (#8827)

... there are other approaches, such as spreading to 3 or more hands in neg-counts, that have been proven effective. zg

I don't understand this
Posted by Royam on 17-Jun-2004 13:17:34 (#8829)

Let's say they are 100 cards left and both the dealer and each player use 2.5 cards per hand.

Let's assume the count will remain negative during the next 50 cards and see what happens with both strategies:

1. If I play 1 hand, I will bet 10 rounds at a disadvantage (my 10 hands will use 25 cards and the dealer will use the remaining 25 cards).

2. If I play 2 hands, I will bet 6-7 rounds at a disadvantage on both hands, which is like betting 12-14 rounds at a disadvantage (my 7 hands will use about 30-35 cards and the dealer will use the remaining cards).

From this simple comparison, I would tend to say:
- when the count is negative, I'll play only one hand,
- when the count is positive, I might want to play 2.

There must be something I'm missing, but what?

Royam

How about this way...
Posted by Sonny on 17-Jun-2004 16:16:13 (#8833)

> Let's say they are 100 cards left and both the dealer and each player use 2.5
> cards per hand.

Good so far. Let's also say that the cut card is after the 50th card in the pack.

> Let's assume the count will remain negative during the next 50 cards and see
> what happens with both strategies:
>
> 1. If I play 1 hand, I will bet 10 rounds at a disadvantage (my 10 hands will
> use 25 cards and the dealer will use the remaining 25 cards).

This way, if your minimum bet is $50, you are putting $500 on the table in negative situations.

> 2. If I play 2 hands, I will bet 6-7 rounds at a disadvantage on both hands,
> which is like betting 12-14 rounds at a disadvantage (my 7 hands will use
> about 30-35 cards and the dealer will use the remaining cards).

But what if you spread to 2 hands of 1/2 of a unit. For example, if you regular minimum bet is $50, you could spread to 2 hands of $25. This way you are only playing 7 rounds of $50, or $350 before the cut card comes out. You have eaten away an extra 3 rounds and spent $150 less money. Also, because of the slight covariance between the hands you are actually better off than playing 7 hands of $50 and Wonging out the rest of the pack.

> From this simple comparison, I would tend to say:
> - when the count is negative, I'll play only one hand,
> - when the count is positive, I might want to play 2.

Ah, but playing multiple hands in a positive situation will also eat cards, so you may get less hands dealt when you have the advantage. You will be eating away the few good hands you get while playing through the same number of negative hands. This is not good. Even with the proper bet sizing on your multiple hands (78% for 2 hands, 53% for 3 hands...I think) you could still be getting less money on the table in good situations. This means less profit.

This is why you must be very careful about your consolidation betting or card eating strategy. As I said below, improperly eating cards can easily overcome your advantage. Don Schlesinger's "Blackjack Attack" covers this in great detail.

-Sonny-

see "inverse hand spreading" *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Jun-2004 16:31:51 (#8835)

Card eating
Posted by Sonny on 17-Jun-2004 11:28:26 (#8828)

It sounds like Tracey is asking about card eating. Although this can give a slight increase in pitch games, it will be almost useless in shoe games. ZenGrifter is right about the consolidation betting strategy, but it is meant for deeply dealt pitch games and will be too weak for an average shoe game. Eating cards by taking an extra hit or an extra split will not be enough to turn the entire shoe in your favor. Since 75% of the time the counts will be negative, your misplays could easily overcome the slight advantage you are fighting so hard for.

So yes, there are ways to eat extra cards in negative counts but if it is not done properly it could easily deteriorate your advantage. In most cases the juice just isn't worth the squeeze.

-Sonny-

Good penetration
Posted by DSCH on 17-Jun-2004 14:45:02 (#8830)

What would be considered good penetration in an 8-deck game? (I know that 8-deck games are considered very bad, but as this is my only option, please give me your opinion anyway). Would good/decent penetration be 6 or 7 decks in? 7.5 decks?

Thanks.

Church casino nights
Posted by DSCH on 17-Jun-2004 14:47:18 (#8831)

I'm curious what you all think about the morality of card counting at a casino night at a church, or another organization or event. When I was first learning to count cards, my friend and I went to a church casino night to practice, but I felt very guilty counting cards

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