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Threads 1651 to 1680

Plug for "The Zen Zone"
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Mar-2005 19:01:36 (#12333)

Please visit "The Zen Zone" on this site and enjoy the unabashed crazyness of the host as he posts the wild and wacky and invites you to do the same.

While you're there, be sure to consider the zen koan: "what is the payoff for one hand clapping?"

Rounded Zen
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 07-Mar-2005 21:41:49 (#12338)

ZG,

I know it's years late... but if you still need those numbers you sent me, I found 'em.

Moe

Please! griftzen@yahoo.com *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Mar-2005 21:56:56 (#12341)

I'm scanning them now *NM*
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 07-Mar-2005 22:58:25 (#12347)

Oh yes, these are George C's ... *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Mar-2005 21:07:46 (#12371)

... 'Extreme Rounded' ZEN consisting only of a limited# of -5,0,+5,& +10 indices, which is perfectly valid of course. zg

Well I hope it is something close to what you were looking for.
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 09-Mar-2005 00:05:55 (#12374)

It's been years since you asked and I couldn't put my hands on them at that time.

ZG?
Posted by SammyBoy on 09-Mar-2005 23:06:03 (#12398)

Are you really anti gun control? Wow, I can't believe it.

Can we please not have that discussion here? *NM*
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 09-Mar-2005 23:48:03 (#12399)

Thanks
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Mar-2005 08:52:25 (#12400)

Isn't there a page for this sort of thread somewhere on this site?

I'm not a 'gun-nut'...
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Mar-2005 14:26:32 (#12406)

... but I do believe that a lot of control already exists. I beleive in the old addage that "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." zg

Yeah...
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 10-Mar-2005 14:28:18 (#12407)

Whom exactly do we want "ontrolling" the guns anyway?

gun control
Posted by stainless steel rat on 10-Mar-2005 17:28:04 (#12413)

I believe in gun control.

I can control my little .17 HRM rifle well enough to consistently hit a dime at 100 yards using a 4-16X scope.

Now _that_ is gun control that works.....

Riveting glimpse of cheaters in Vegas
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Mar-2005 21:48:37 (#12339)

Did anyone catch the first episode? zg

-------------------

Posted on Tue, Mar. 01, 2005

TELEVISION REVIEW

Good bet: Riveting glimpse of cheaters in Vegas

BY GLENN GARVIN
ggarvin@herald.com

• Breaking Vegas, 9-11 tonight, History Channel

With television debuting a new show on the glories of Las Vegas casinos approximately every four hours these days, it might be wise to consider the words of Richard Marcus in tonight's premiere of the History Channel's Breaking Vegas: 'The only `sure thing' in gambling is cheating.''

Marcus, like the other featured players in Breaking Vegas, is a career cheater. This fascinating documentary series uses interviews, old news footage and recreated scenes to tell the stories of gamblers who use everything from cutting-edge silicon chips to old-fashioned nimble fingers to gain an edge on the casinos.

High- and low-tech cheaters both get their props in tonight's special two-hour debut. (Future episodes of Breaking Vegas will be only an hour.) But champions of traditional values will note with satisfaction that it's the old-school guys who got away with millions of bucks, while the computer whiz kids went to jail.

To call the cheating ring led by Richard Marcus low-tech is a whopping understatement. As Marcus himself admits, his technique was ''so simple it's idiotic'' -- he just slipped chips onto or off of the table when blackjack dealers and roulette tourneurs weren't looking.

At first, Marcus and his crew added high-value chips to winning bets. But as casino surveillance teams caught on to that one, Marcus reversed his ploy: He bet high every time but replaced big chips with small ones when his bets lost. Touchingly, he named the technique ''Savannah,'' after his favorite Vegas topless dancer.

Marcus, never arrested in 24 years of cheating, now lives in retirement on the French Riviera. Less lucky, and more morally ambiguous, was Ron Harris, a rogue computer-security specialist for the Nevada Gaming Commission, the agency that regulates casinos.

His job was to detect rigged software in slot machines, but Harris became such an expert that he began unleashing viruses into the machines the gaming commission inspected, programming them to pay off jackpots after a certain sequence of coins was bet.

His slot-machine chicanery was never detected. But then Harris turned his attention to the lottery game keno. Carefully studying the patterns of the computers that generate the lottery numbers, he discovered that they weren't really random but could be predicted with the aid of his own computer.

The first time Harris played keno, he won $100,000 -- but got into trouble when casino officials discovered he worked for the gaming commission, whose employees are legally barred from playing in casinos. He eventually went to prison for two years.

Tampering with slot machines is cheating in anybody's book. But what about outsmarting the casino's keno computer? ''Is that cheating?'' asks Harris. ''If you can use your wits to be as smart as the machine you're betting against?'' It's questions like that that make Breaking Vegas well worth watching.

xxx

The History Channel Presents BREAKING VEGAS
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Mar-2005 21:49:29 (#12340)

The History Channel Presents BREAKING VEGAS

NEW YORK, Feb. 2 /PRNewswire/ -- Everyday, Las Vegas casinos attract hundreds of thousands of gamblers from around the world -- and more than their fair share of cheaters. The new series BREAKING VEGAS on The History Channel(R) looks at some of Las Vegas's most notorious high-stakes cheaters and the various tactics they've used to fleece casinos in the gambling capital of the world. BREAKING VEGAS premieres on Tuesday, March 1 at 9:00 p.m. ET/PT with new episodes airing on Tuesdays at 9:00 p.m. ET/PT.

Cheating in Las Vegas casinos has taken a wide variety of forms over the years. There have been inside jobs, the use of digital equipment to spy, the creation of gadgets to predict outcomes in roulette and blackjack -- plus: various legal -- but shady -- card-counting schemes involving entire teams of people. BREAKING VEGAS episodes combine recent and historical footage, dramatizations, factual background, and interviews with those involved, including some of the schemers themselves. Viewers get a behind-the-scenes look at the methods used and the casinos' constant efforts to counterbalance them.

Episodes Include:

THE ULTIMATE CHEAT (airing Tuesday, March 1st at 9:00 p.m. ET/PT) Imagine the ultimate cheating move of all time -- so outrageous, so audacious, so brilliantly simple that it takes the best of the casino's investigators to even come close to catching the genius behind it. This is the story of a daring, devious kid from New Jersey -- Richard Marcus -- and how he took the craft of past-posting to amazing new heights, vowing to cheat casinos out of $5 million and never be caught. As riveting as the bouncing ball on a roulette wheel itself, The Ultimate Cheat is the roller-coaster adventure of one brilliant cheat who managed to evade security at every move and ultimately discovered the move that could never be caught on tape.

SLOT BUSTER (airing Tuesday, March 1st at 10:00 p.m. ET/PT) Casino worker Ron Harris was a technology whiz employed by the Nevada Gaming Control Board to stop technology-related casino scams. Then, disillusioned by his employers' lax approach to stopping cheaters, he became one himself, using inside knowledge to reprogram computer chips, predict numerical patterns, and collect millions in cash. But how long could his act last?

PROFESSOR BLACKJACK (airing Tuesday, March 8th at 9:00 p.m. ET/PT) In 1961, when Las Vegas was under heavy mafia influence, a young MIT math professor devised a revolutionary and completely legal card-counting scheme that had the potential to make him a fortune. A mob slickster approached the young professor and the two forged a partnership that would change the casino industry forever.

THE GADGET GAMBLER (airing Tuesday, March 15th at 9:00 p.m. ET/PT) Keith Taft, a straight-laced family man with an affinity for electronic gadgetry, happened upon a casino one day and developed an obsession with beating blackjack. He used LED eyeglasses, laser beams, satellite dishes, TV monitors, and even his children to execute a variety of scams that earned him the label "mad scientist" ... and eventually brought about his demise.

CARD COUNT KING (airing Tuesday, March 22nd at 9:00 p.m. ET/PT) Tommy Hyland turned card-counting into a team effort that he considered legal -- but the casinos disagreed. His phenomenal success led to the arrest of members of his team in a Canadian casino, and a titanic court battle that provoked furious debate over the legality and fairness of card-counting.

BREAKING VEGAS is produced by Atlas Media Corp. for The History Channel. Executive Producer for The History Channel is Carl H. Lindahl. Executive Producer for Atlas Media is Bruce David Klein.

Now reaching more than 87 million Nielsen subscribers, The History Channel(R), "Where the Past Comes Alive(R)," brings history to life in a powerful manner and provides an inviting place where people experience history personally and connect their own lives to the great lives and events of the past. In 2004, The History Channel earned five News and Documentary Emmy(R) Awards and previously received the prestigious Governor's Award from the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences for the network's "Save Our History(R)" campaign dedicated to historic preservation and history education. The History Channel web site is located at http://www.historychannel.com/.

CONTACT: Jenna Farkas, +1-212-210-9184, jenna.farkas@aetn.com

Web site: http://www.historychannel.com/

Disclaimer: Information contained on this page is provided by companies featured through PR Newswire. PR Newswire, WorldNow and this Station cannot confirm the accuracy of this information and make no warranties or representations in connection therewith.

Password:

Ron Harris
Posted by Sun Runner on 08-Mar-2005 09:49:10 (#12354)

The police will tell you that if criminals didn't make mistakes it would be hard to catch and prosecute anyone.

But Ron Harris .. man .. of all the guys that it looked like had a bird's nest on the ground. Geeez. His deal could have gone on forever.

If he and his buddy were as unprepared for the Keno end game as they appeared to be, I suppose it is no wonder they did get caught.

They probably could have taken a grand a week each out of the Nevada slots for the rest of their life.

There's more to winning
Posted by bfbagain on 08-Mar-2005 11:01:51 (#12356)

and extracting money from casinos than even cheating can gurantee.

For the sake of assumption, assume Harris was not a cheater, but him and his partner won, nonetheless. The casino would have still acted in the very same manner as they did, as they didn't know at the time that cheating was the reason behind the win.

There was still the issues with ID, casino comportment, hotel roommates.

Granted, if the win was luck, they would have been paid and that would have been that. But there is a valuable lesson here (besides the, you're not supposed to cheat one), and that's how prepared you are as an AP to handle big wins.

What story do you have? Are there friends that are counters staying with you in the same room? What if you hit a royal on dollar VP machine, and you checked in under a different name? How will handle the ID issue for tax purposes?

There is a lot more to winning than knowing how to count, bet and playing your cards. Most people attempt to prepare themselves for LOSING, e.g., do I resize my bets, do I have a replenishable bankroll, etc. What you also need is to prepare yourself for WINNING.

Think about it. These guys, Harris and his partner, but mostly Harris, flew to AC, one by way of the Caribbean, and checked in to the same room, knowing they were attempting a cheating move? That's like a burgler posing for a store's video camera during a robbery. Duh. They were destined to fail and be caught. Not to mention that the name "Ron Harris" might just set off bells and whistles? Ya think?

There are many good counters that are constantly being backed off. Why? Because they play such a strong game that every moron critter and $10 an hour surveillance worker will identify them in seconds becasue they're so damn good?

Nonsense. Learn how to act when WINNING, and you will be far more successful in your quest to extract money.

cheers
bfb

An excellent post. *NM*
Posted by Sun Runner on 08-Mar-2005 13:02:09 (#12359)

yeah...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 07-Mar-2005 22:51:05 (#12346)

They are airing one tomorrow night about Edward Thorpe. I'm hoping it doesn't once again brand us all as "cheaters". So far we saw the episode you mentioned, then the episode about the "king of slots cheaters" that worked for the NGB and re-programmed slots to pay off on his command, and then wrecked the Keno game in AC by breaking the RNG algorithm and predicting the next set of winning keno numbers... So two episodes about cheaters, and now we get "Beat the Dealer" Edward Thorpe next.

I think I'll hide my head in shame now...

Historical discrepency in Ed Thorpe episode
Posted by Garo on 10-Mar-2005 13:03:05 (#12405)

In the show he teaches his investor to count with Hi-Lo but according to "Beat the Dealer" at the time he was workign with his investor he was using 5s count, and "[Hi-Lo] was not presented in the first edition because the needed calulations had not been completed" p75 1966 edition

I saw this one episode
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Mar-2005 23:10:43 (#12348)

It was narrated by Scoblete and had a lot of cheats and thieves in it. It mentioned AP only briefly as a legitimate way to make money in a casino.

Several new gambling-related posts...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Mar-2005 21:58:02 (#12342)

...are now at ZenZone. zg

What's better?
Posted by Anthony on 08-Mar-2005 10:14:46 (#12355)

To everyone:

Playing a downtown Vegas single-deck game and a bankroll of $500. What count system would you use the Red Seven or Zen?

Thanks
Anthony

P.S. What about SF 21

Need more info.
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 08-Mar-2005 16:57:00 (#12361)

Oherwise, the answer is always "Zen".

I have noticed better DD games than SD in some areas of town.

SF21? Ask the Bear!

which are you best at?
Posted by KennilworthKid on 08-Mar-2005 17:09:04 (#12362)

Both will get the money...and all things equal Zen will win a little more...but is your Red 7 much better than your Zen...can you repeatedly count down a deck without error for one but not the other? Are you much faster at Red 7 than Zen.

If you are downtown I would suspect you are there to play the single and double deck games...Zen would probably be better as it's play eff. is higher than Red 7. However, I suspect you may not be very experienced at counting yet, and I would say that using Red 7 is a good count anytime with any game, and especially for someone just starting out. Indeed, if this is your first time out, just playing basic strategy is a learning experience.

With a bankroll of $5000 you could go to the strip and play the shoe games, and Red 7 would be better there, its easier to play for long periods of time.

Whichever you game select, I urge you to have a plan for how much would will bet on each count, buy in for only a small portion of your bankroll (say 2 or 3 maximum bets--you can always buy in for more if you need to--casinos like to see you doing that) and limit you play to 1 hour or less in that casino during one 8 hour period.

Good luck and have fun.

What's better?...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Mar-2005 21:01:05 (#12369)

... the one that you are best at.

Also, $500 is not really enough, over all.

Additionally, some of the downtown 2D games like LVClub and Plaza are as good as the Cortez and Western 1D games and can be played with a 1-4 spread if you wong out of the neg-counts. If I only had 100u of bank, I would play the 1-2D games similary: spreading from 1u to 2hands of 3u and exiting neg-counts. zg

Playing with black chips
Posted by BlackJackHack on 08-Mar-2005 18:01:50 (#12363)

Frankly, I�m not big on trip reports. I have benefited in the past from the advice of others on this and other forums, however, and thought others might find this interesting.

For some time, I had contemplated transitioning from $25 to $100 units. Intellectually, I could think of no reason not to do it. I have a very substantial bankroll, and my game is solid after three years (not full-time by any means, but much more than a casual hobby) of success at green-level play. I recently took the plunge.

I played a mix of 2D and 6D games, wonging out of the 6D games at all TCs below -1 (I use the Uston APC, but the TC is not a lot different than hi-lo).

I started play at 6pm on Day 1, and finished at 10pm on Day 4 � roughly a 72-hour period.

Even though I had experienced the usual fluctuations of green chip play, I was NOT emotionally prepared for this. Throughout my trip, I experienced +/- fluctuations of $3k-5k per hour.

Between 6pm on Day 1 and 4pm on day 2 (less than 24 hours), and in only about 6 hours of play, I lost $12k. As a green chipper, I had NEVER lost more than $5k in 24 hours, and now I had lost $12k in just 6 hours of play. While I knew that this was well within the normal range of statistical expectation, I was really depressed.

I had brought a cash bankroll of $15k. At 4pm on Day 2, I pulled another $2k from a brokerage account (that permits $2k daily ATM withdrawals). I would have to wait until the morning of Day 3 before I could further replenish my trip bankroll when the banks opened. There was a very high possibility of tapping out my $17k (of which only $5k remained) before I could get to the bank on Day 3!

I played a few green chip sessions on the evening of Day 2, both because of concern about my depleted cash bankroll, and to help myself relax. I had a couple of moderate (green chip-size) wins, and quickly returned to black play, and had some more wins, including a $3500 win. Overnight on Day 2-Day 3, I won back around $6k. I had cut my loss in half.

On the afternoon of Day 3, I had a small (a $1000 win is pretty small at black play) win. Then I had a session where I lost about $5000 in an hour --- back down to around -$10k for the trip.

Fortunately, the flux turned good on the evening of Day 3, and during the day on Day 4. I had a string of modest ($1000-2000) wins, and finished with a $3k win (in an hour) in the evening.

After logging in my results in Excel on the plane, I determined I finished ahead $350 for the trip. That would be a nice result for a red chipper. For a black chip player, clearly anything +/- $1000 for a 3 day trip should be looked at as �break even.� I would win or lose $1000 in the blink of an eye.

I get very emotional when I think about this trip. It was certainly gratifying to dig myself out of a $12k hole (even though I am well aware that there is no such thing as a �trip� or a �session,� it is virtually impossible for a human being not to think in such terms). On the other hand, I was really a wreck until well after I got home.

A very insightful post, and maybe Eliot will archive it.
Posted by bfbagain on 08-Mar-2005 19:38:36 (#12364)

I hope many, many people read your comments. There are so many people who think that just because they can, or have the bank, or believe they have the skills, that transitioning from green to black is a piece of cake.

Au Contraire.

The emotional control and experience needed in order to master and handle the swings takes much, much more than learning how to count or playing for small stakes.

Blackchip play is another level, another ballgame altogether. The requirements to handle the psychological, emotional and financial swings that you'll experience are steep. It is very hard to put into words. There are many who have the ability, and finances, and still won't do it, for those same reasons that you experienced.

Now that you have experienced it, and I am one who believes you're better off in having the negative flux first, you'll be much better prepared the next time you step into the arena.

However, you may very well decide that the roller coaster effects of winning and losing 5K in a heartbeat is too steep a price to pay for the opportunity of playing with a 1-1.5% advantage, while being on candid camera, and thinking that you might have to be James Bond like to be allowed to play again, and that's even if you lose. What if you win? :-)

Nice job in hanging in there though. My hat's off to you. All I can say, is been there, and doing that.

cheers
bfb

Great person to sit next to on the plane
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Mar-2005 20:08:12 (#12365)

Next time I'm on the plane and I see someone logging BJ results into Excel I'll be sure to say hello!

Just got done posting something about this on another forum, the emotions will kill you in this game, perhaps literally. Can you imagine what could have happened if you started steaming to recover your loss? You have to do what you have to do to control it, be it money management devices like leaving on a win or alcohol or whatever. Sure these things won't hurt or help you (except too much alcohol, which will always help) but if the alternative is steaming or other illogical play those things sure will hurt you. Maybe playing with black chips instead of green, as well as evoking a "black action" call, has an undesirable stressful effect on you. Thanks for the report.

15K
Posted by suicyco maniac on 08-Mar-2005 21:05:59 (#12370)

Seems kinda small for 4 days of black play. I have won or lost more then that on one shoe several times. Perhaps being shortstacked at the table (while still hopefully having bankroll at home) added signifigantly to your stress level. SM

$15k
Posted by BlackJackHack on 09-Mar-2005 08:33:05 (#12379)

I suspect that, when winning or losing $15k on a single shoe, you were playing with a bigger spread (perhaps 1-10 or 1-12) than I was. With the spread I was using (1-6 or 2x4), and playing mostly 2D, I felt that $5k (which was the lowest my trip bankroll got) was enough to sit down, albeit barely.

I do think I should have brought more than $15k cash. While I can replenish my bankroll fairly quickly during banking hours, that's only 8 hours per day. If I tap out in the evening, that would cost me several hours of play.

So... that's about $5/hour? *NM*
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 08-Mar-2005 21:25:13 (#12373)

Good Job!!!
Posted by Anthony on 09-Mar-2005 08:45:41 (#12380)

First I would like to say that you are a winner. Although you didn't really win a lot of money, especially since a 350 dollar win while playing with that kind of money doesn't seem like much. However, how would you feel on the plane if you lost 350? Anyway, you've put more time into the long run, and the next time you play it could just as easilly go all your way. You went home a winner from your trip, and probally would have made a lot more at your job if you work, but what the heck, you have to be in it to win it.

Good Job
Anthony

Meetings?
Posted by SonOfBeve on 08-Mar-2005 20:08:29 (#12366)

Any plans in the making for having some kind of get together for all of us counters? It would be nice to meet everyone in person.

A get-together with casino employees is not likely
Posted by LVBear584 on 09-Mar-2005 02:01:33 (#12376)

You previously posted that you are a casino employee and a part-time player. No disrespect intended, but why would anyone take the risk of meeting you?

why
Posted by stainless steel rat on 09-Mar-2005 10:46:56 (#12383)

Why would anyone jump out of a perfectly good airplane, to test a parachute?

Why would anyone drive a motorcycle at 170MPH plus on an interstate? (two were caught here in alabama doing that a month ago)

Why would anyone climb a 2000 foot vertical rock wall?

Why would anyone brave hypoxia, hypothermia, to climb to the top of a mountain?

We humans are actually a stupid lot... :)

For those playing a lot longer than I have, one more:

Why would anyone count cards in a casino, risking getting backroomed or hauled off into the middle of the desert? :)

I trust 'SOB'...
Posted by zengrifter on 09-Mar-2005 19:07:31 (#12393)

...but that's just me! zg

I trust SOB as well....
Posted by SonOfBeve on 09-Mar-2005 19:58:34 (#12394)

but thats just ME!

I neither trust nor distrust him...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 09-Mar-2005 20:55:47 (#12396)

I was just pointing out that humans do silly things and take silly risks, without considering all the potential problems. I played football in high school. 1964 illustrated the dangers when I had an ACL/MCL completely ripped apart along with cart. damage. I knew the risks, but always thought "never happen to me". It did... And the amazing thing is that I would probably play again could I go back in time. :)

Agree
Posted by Sun Runner on 10-Mar-2005 11:03:36 (#12402)

Something else we can agree on. I know they are few and far between but ain't it nice when they come up! :)

------------------------------------

Sorry 'SOB' but I agree with SSR. Don't take it personally, but the upside is small (probably) and the downside is huge. Why would I take the risk?

Props to your honsesty about your vocation though

Im hurt...
Posted by SonOfBeve on 10-Mar-2005 16:17:40 (#12410)

So your all telling me I just wasted my money on my new camera for nothing. NOW ILL NEVER GET PROMOTED!

You can take my pic!
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Mar-2005 18:34:54 (#12415)

Or just go here - http://profiles.yahoo.com/zengrifter

Hmmm....
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Mar-2005 09:03:39 (#12382)

Since you already know what I look like, I would be glad to meet. I sincerely doubt you will get many more takers.

I'll send you a note next time I'm coming to town.

--Mayor

To ZG- Morse's technique- is it unlawful?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Mar-2005 20:14:33 (#12367)

I see your post about the NJ casino blacklist, Morse is barred because of using the cut card to peek at the first card of the new shoe. Thank you NJ Gaming for giving me dirty ideas. I've done something similar but just to see a slug card and give me an extra card penetration but I think I can recreate what Morse was doing too. Do you think they will arrest me?

More than that...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Mar-2005 20:26:18 (#12368)

..the technique is to cut EXACTLY a known number of cards (say 26) and then peek - if its an Ace or Ten then you can be assured of betting appropriately upon the impending receipt of the Ace (50% adv.) or Ten (10% adv.)

Several pros nearly caught criminal cases with the move including Sam Case, whose photo adornes Haywood's 'Beat WebCasinos.com'

As far as simply peeking at the cut entry for count purposes, that's not a problem. zg

Online Blackjack . Profitable ?
Posted by John on 09-Mar-2005 04:06:18 (#12377)

Hi. I used to come here a lot and I'm glad that it is still running. I am currently playing online poker and enjoying it. Trying to build the ol' bankroll to give the Brick and Mortars another shot with the card counting again. Had some financial problems and had to give up my blackjack bankroll. Anyone know of beatable online games where they deal into the deck ? I know of one where you can use all 5 spots of the table to play but you have to wager all at the same time so the only edge you would get would be through playing indices and that edge I would guess would be quite small. Glad Automatic Monkey is still hitting the casinos hard. Later y'all

Bonus Play
Posted by MrPill on 09-Mar-2005 11:31:15 (#12384)

John,

Welcome back. I remember when you had to leave and I'm glad things are turning around for you.

I have not played online for quite a while and remember that there was not much of anything that was countable for an advantage. The advantage came into play by getting the bonuses and then cashing out. Since those days though, alot of the play required to qualify for those bonuses and gotten quite high.

Rob McGarvey, before he passed away was a good one for getting the most out of bonuses and was a good source of information.

Anyway, maybe someone else here has current information for you.

Good Luck,
Pill

Mayor is your book still available
Posted by Dali-lama on 09-Mar-2005 06:44:48 (#12378)

Singed?...I know you had some before, I would love to
add one to my collection. If any are available please give me the info. I'll be outta town for the next week , but if I can purchase one I'll do so as soon as I return.
thanks DL

Yes
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Mar-2005 08:55:29 (#12381)

Just send me a personal email when you order through this site, and I'll be sure to get a signed one to you.

Use this link to order:

https://www.west.net/~bpbooks/BJZoneOrderSecure.htm

--Mayor

New Barfarkel interview *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 09-Mar-2005 11:40:17 (#12385)

This was the one I did about a year ago for the American Radio Network. It's never been available for listening before, but thanks to Green Bud who converted my audiotape to cd, we were finally able to add it to the book's website. This was the one that had ZG raving about it when I played it for him in the car on the drive to Vegas in December. Go to: www.Youvegotheat.com and click the "Play" button.

Cheers,

Barfarkel

Clear message
Posted by zugszwang on 09-Mar-2005 21:58:54 (#12397)

Easy to understand and not too technical. I wish you had the time to explain you expect only 6/10 winning sessions and you have periods of months where you are not winning. The interviewer, as do all civilians, was starting to get the idea that you win nearly all the time. God I hate that! It makes people jealous or believe the casinos line of 'cheaters', but probably helps sell a few books!

I'm starting to get sick!!!
Posted by Anthony on 09-Mar-2005 17:00:48 (#12390)

To whom it may concern:

I've learned and practiced the High Opt 1 for appx 1.5 yrs which I can count, I know for sure a 2d, balanced count down with no problem. I can keep both a running and true count. This is what I know, and have put in some alright time into playig. Although I havn't put it to much use for awhile.

When I play, I do a pertty good job, but recently during the past month or so, I've become somewhat memorized by our sport. The problem is that I read so many posts and Blackbelt in Blackjack, and when I get off work, which is where I'm at now, I want to buy Blackjack Attack @ a bookstore out here. I want to become an expert in this game and become very successfull.

I just don't know where to go from here. It's like there's Red 7 and there's the Zen Count. I'm kinda spinning in circles, but need to go in one direction, but which way? I can count a deck no problem, I need the indicie chats, because I don't have the info to say example. hit a 4 adjanst a 6 if it's -4 or more the values may change, but that's easy if your halfway good with math. What do I do and make myself become better. I can't ask the pitt boss. What score would you give my play......lol

Basically, I'm asking for some true help in making me become an expert.

I know how to return a favor.

My recommendation...
Posted by zengrifter on 09-Mar-2005 20:44:19 (#12395)

... is that IF you are confident with TC adjustment, go with HiLoLite in BBIBJ. If not go with KO, read the book then learn 'GriftKO' for 1-2D available somewhere on this page. zg

Thanks
Posted by Anthony on 10-Mar-2005 09:53:39 (#12401)

Dear Zengrifter,

Thank you. I'm very confident on my true count conversion. I'm going to, today, start perfecting the Hi Lo lite count.

So far this this week going to the casinos with a bank-roll of 500, I've made 200. I have plans on playing tonight and leaving once I'm up 75 or more depending on the count once I'm at $75.

I'm going to take your advice and master the high lo lite, then I'll let you know when I'm done.

Thanks again
Anthony

Why would you stop at $75?
Posted by toddler on 10-Mar-2005 13:00:43 (#12403)

Hi Anthony,

If the conditions are good and you're not tired or overextending your stay, why would you leave just because you're up by a specific amount? Will you stop if you're down $75?

There are some who subscribe to the belief that you should quit while you're ahead. Others maintain their own personal comfort zone and that's fine for them. If you are relatively new and fall into this area, you may want to snag a copy of Eliot's book and review sections on BJ myths.

Now, if you just doubled your trip bank, take some time and celebrate because you definitely earned it!

toddler

The reason is and I could be wrong........
Posted by Anthony on 10-Mar-2005 16:02:22 (#12409)

The reason why I say $75 dollars is because I believe in setting a goal and woring towards that goal. I know that $75 is not a lot of money and it doesn't buy much.

I'm going to play today with a bankroll of $500, not much. You have to remember that with that much of a bankroll my max bet should be five dollars(1% according to Snyder), and that could be the minimum bet depending on where I play. So right off the bat I'm not playing with enough money to justify a big win (gambling). However, because of standard fluctuation and proper spreading I could realistically grind out this kind of money. Or I could just loose it all, but if the run we dream for comes along, who knows......

I'll should check out that book though, because I could be wrong going for short money eventhough I can do it a lot without getting noticed and pick their pockets for a long time.

Anthony

Use a win/lose session limit of ...
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Mar-2005 18:29:23 (#12414)

... 20u ($100). That should suffice. BUT know that such limits afford no protection of enhancement, other than protection from mgmt scrutiny. zg

What happended......
Posted by Anthony on 10-Mar-2005 20:02:25 (#12418)

I went to a strip casino with a $5 minimum table today with $500. I spent an hour and a half at the table and my biggest spread was 35 dollars.

I had a 20 dollar split bet (40 total) 8's versus a 4 with DAS, and a true count of plus 4, I smiled inside very big. Was delt a 4 to make 12, another plus .5, second hand 9= 17, dealers needs to bust, flips, 14, 3 to make 17. Darn, but it happens.

To make a long story short, I followed what I've learned (high opt 1) and made a little over a $100. I left because 3 tourist dran slapped down on the table that made it 6 players, plus the dealer. I figured that was a good return on my investment.

Take it Easy
Anthony

P.S. Zengrifter: What does enchantment mean?

Hey... OnePitCritter...
Posted by toddler on 10-Mar-2005 13:02:56 (#12404)

What's going on with your joint putting in 6:5 SD? Did you speak your mind on this issue? Just checking.

toddler

New Gambling Articles posted...
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Mar-2005 16:44:57 (#12411)

... in ZenZone. zg

Heaven and Hell: Blackjack in Moldavia
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Mar-2005 19:12:37 (#12416)

Heaven and Hell: Blackjack in Moldavia

By Gary Baldy in Moscow

Trip chronology

Day minus one. Introduction.

One well-known professional gambler asked me if I wanted information about a blackjack game with extremely good rules. Sure, answered I. (What professional gambler wouldn’t?) He proposed to give me information on some really good blackjack game with an off-the-top advantage close to 2%. He also proposed that I go there with his good friend and a joint 50/50 bankroll. After some thinking, I decided to agree, mostly because this guy’s friend was local and knew everything about the place and could solve possible problems.

I was told that the game was in Chisinau City, the capital of Moldavia. I gave him my phone number and he said that his friend would call me soon.

...continued here -
http://blackjackforumonline.com/content/blackjackmoldavia.htm

great read! *NM*
Posted by comrade0ne on 11-Mar-2005 19:04:05 (#12425)

Casino Operations Forum offers insight... *LINK*
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Mar-2005 20:02:13 (#12417)

... into the minds of operators and surveillance personel. Click link. zg

pretty wild stuff
Posted by stainless steel rat on 10-Mar-2005 21:11:22 (#12419)

also shows that eye folks can be just as antagonistic as advantage players. :)

Resisting the temptation...
Posted by Automatic Monkey's password isn't working on 11-Mar-2005 19:49:48 (#12426)

... to go over there and tell them where to stick their assertion that advantage play is cheating! I do a lot of suffering at the table and a lot of work at home in lieu of cheating and if I wanted to cheat that would make things a lot easier for me.

Some of them claim that we know what the odds are, and we choose to play anyway therefore we must accept the odds as they are. Funny, I don't remember seeing any signs on those 6:5 tables telling us the house edge is 8 times that of the real game. If it weren't for advantage players nobody would know what the edge is, nor know what basic strategy is in order to play the game to that edge. Next, they'll be saying BS players are cheaters too because the house can't survive on that kind of an edge and it gives them an advantage over unskilled players.

(What happened, passwords messed up? Also Hotmail is reporting cardcountermanagement@hotmail.com a dead address.)

table game area
Posted by Victoria on 12-Mar-2005 00:14:02 (#12430)

There is a table game area there. The moderator screens member posts but both Al Rogers and myself can be found there in the older posts. Some decent discussion in old posts concerning things like Mindplay, many are more even handed than expected. Of course these are pit and table game operations types who deal with customers and have a different outlook than those enclosed in the eye.
Victoria

Binion's *LINK*
Posted by MrPill on 11-Mar-2005 11:59:22 (#12420)

Will a better game return and 6:5 SD leave?

Pill

A letter-writing campaign...
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Mar-2005 19:02:33 (#12424)

... would be in order now. zg

Suggested Letter
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 11-Mar-2005 21:54:41 (#12428)

Dear MTR:

Thank you for rescuing the preeminent name in pure Las Vegas gambling entertainment. You have done a great service to the city and downtown.

As a regular visitor, We used to make Binion's a required part of every trip. We enjoyed the steakhouse, the hotel, and especially the fun blackjack areas where every seemed to be having a good time. Unfortunately, we have not had that feeling lately and don't stop by the place much anymore.

After reading that Harrah's handed the keys over to you, we are excited to see what you will do with the place. We look forward to several pits filled with the old-fashioned fun and excitiement of the blackjack that Benny Binion provided to us and genertions before.

Please put us on your mailing list so we can be the among the first to xperience fun like it used to be and like we hope it will be for a long time now that new life is breathed into a great old property by a comapany that knows gambling and fun.

See you soon!

Sincerely,

Mr. & Mrs. Cardcounter
678 Deeply Dealt Land
Anytown, USA 84225

typos
Posted by oldnewbie on 12-Mar-2005 06:59:12 (#12431)

OK, folks, let's be careful about typos when we write letters to corporations:

Dear MTR:

Thank you for rescuing the preeminent name in pure Las Vegas gambling entertainment. You have done a great service to the city and downtown.

As regular visitors, we used to make Binion's a required part of every trip. We enjoyed the steakhouse, the hotel, and especially the fun blackjack areas where everyone seemed to be having a good time. Unfortunately, we have not had that feeling lately and don't stop by the place much anymore.

Please put us on your mailing list so we can be the among the first to experience fun like it used to be and like we hope it will be for a long time now that new life is breathed into a great old property by a company that knows gambling and fun.

See you soon!

Sincerely,

Mr. & Mrs. Cardcounter
678 Deeply Dealt Land
Anytown, USA 84225

That takes care of my corrections. Anybody else have any?

-olnewbie

Also Recommend...
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 12-Mar-2005 13:32:23 (#12432)

That you insert your own name at the bottom and elimate reference to "Deeply Dealt Lane".

;-)

Much too vague and uncritical! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 13-Mar-2005 18:35:13 (#12443)

Binnion's new "Station"
Posted by Sonny on 14-Mar-2005 00:25:25 (#12445)

> The iconic, horseshoe-shaped sign and giant letter "H" also will be removed
> to make way for a neon letter "B."

Boooo!!!

> The Binion's Horseshoe signs will be donated to downtown's Neon Museum

Well, alright.

> Brian Eby�who has also served with�Station Casinos Inc., is the new general
> manager of Binion's.

Boooo!!!

> Binion's also will reintroduce a hamburger grill that had been located in the
> property's snack bar

Yaaaaay!!!

> The company also plans to upgrade software that tracks gambling activity

Hmmm, I'm a bit worried now.

Well, even if they don't improve the games we can at least duck in there for a quick burger. Will they still have the chili? That stuff gave me an excuse to Wong out of so many negative counts! Instead of looking like a grasshopper jumping from table to table they actually felt sorry for me. It was also the perfect excuse to order water instead of alcohol. I feel bad that I talked about it so often but never actually tried it. Maybe I'll get a second chance.

-Sonny-

Shuffle tracking
Posted by Garo on 11-Mar-2005 16:32:44 (#12421)

Gentlemen-
What book/software do you recommend to learn shuffle tracking? What kind of advantage can I expect to gain with it? Thanks for your help.

Garo

In "The Best Posts"
Posted by The Mayor on 11-Mar-2005 18:20:47 (#12422)

Have you read these:

http://www.cardcounter.com/best.pl?read=18

http://www.cardcounter.com/best.pl?read=17

Also, this one -
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Mar-2005 19:01:15 (#12423)

Cut Off Tracking -
http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?read=343

Also, some discussion of Cut Off Tracking is provided in the
Zengrifter Interview. zg

And here -
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Mar-2005 20:49:16 (#12427)

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=shuffle+tracking&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en

Not quite sure
Posted by Garo on 14-Mar-2005 13:06:00 (#12451)

First off, thank you for your help. However I may not be reading those posts closely enough, but I don't see where it explains where those cards are after the shuffle. I undertand the part about if the count is high, cut the used cards to the top of the deck and if the count is low cut the unused cards to the top of the deck, but how do I know where those cards are after the shuffle?

Well, yeah that's the question.
Posted by Rob V. on 14-Mar-2005 16:32:18 (#12452)

Well, there's the rub. You pay attention to where the cards go into the stack pre-shuffle. Then, using your trained eyes, assisted by your previous study of this and other shuffles, you follow those cards through the non-random shuffle.

Your money will be well spent purchasing Arnold Snyder's "Shuffle Tracking Cookbook", available online at the Gambler's Book Club. It's $50, but it's an enjoyable and informative read.

what is the real reason for a players card?
Posted by eyesfor21 on 12-Mar-2005 15:56:51 (#12433)

-if it is not to track wins?

answer
Posted by stainless steel rat on 12-Mar-2005 20:58:56 (#12434)

To track _you_ of course. :)

Why do you think grocery stores have those stupid "value" cards? To track what _you_ are buying. The more they know about you, the better. At least they think so...

The danger is that if you get backed off while using a player's card that has your real name on it, you are _really_ backed off.

yes of course but
Posted by eyesfor21 on 12-Mar-2005 22:03:14 (#12435)

there is a shop
without heat that we want lots of comps
would it be safe to show frequent wins
vs losses.?
would it matter much
playing with nickels..mostly

here is my worry.
Posted by stainless steel rat on 13-Mar-2005 12:55:59 (#12440)

two of my most recent backoffs happened right at the start of a session, I was playing for nickles, and used "my" player's card. Fortunately it did not have my correct name, so I don't have that problem yet, but when I bought in and gave the dealer my player's card, within 60 seconds someone was wanting to talk to me.

All I could guess is that my previous session had been noticed, that the eye had gone back over my play, and I had been too careless with my betting, letting them correlate betting with the count. They apparently then left a note on my player's card data for the next time I used it. So this is not a good plan, in general, for that reason. As I said, fortunately it didn't track back to my real name, and after a few months I'll play there again but _not_ with that player's card, which has been destroyed...

In vegas this was never a problem on the strip, as they would not even rate play unless your min bet was $25, so I had zero problems in that regard, but then of course there are generally zero comps at low-limit tables on the strip to go along with that lack of rating information...

It is a case of "do I do it and take a chance? Or do I not do it and play longer with fewer comps." Or there are alternative ways of dealing with player's cards where you can earn comps risk-free. Your imagination is your friend here... :)

Remember that you don't want the card to come back to _you_...

Depends on where I'm playing
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-Mar-2005 14:35:54 (#12441)

When I'm on the road, I never use a player's card no matter what the incentive. The reason is that I tend to spread my head off and play a place until banned if it's not likely I will ever be going back there in a year or so. What I'm talking about are remote injun places that aren't likely to be flyering me all over the country. And I'm not going to be able to use the comps so no point in getting the card.

Now in my local places, I'm in a state of detente with the house. At Foxwoods a PC once went up to the dealer at my table and openly told him not to let me spread to 4 hands, because I'm a counter. But 3 was OK. So because I use and enjoy the comps and they don't have a problem with my action I have cards in these two stores. Last night I was sitting 5 feet away from Rick Derringer and Spencer Davis on stage, after a plate full of jumbo shrimp and a few martinis, all courtesy of my player's card. Had a pretty good session at the table too.

tracking
Posted by EYEinTHEsky on 16-Mar-2005 22:40:37 (#12476)

well, yes, it is to track your play, your win loss ratio, which is nice come tax time, but, also, as stated here,if you get backed off using your name, it will be inputted into your profile. Also, if you are suspected of being an AP, you will get evaluated, and that will be posted on your profile. Other than that, its for comps, etc..etc... I love my free dinners, and free suites, that I never use...haha...Anybody need rooms in AC????? LOL

Attn: Zengrifter........
Posted by Anthony on 12-Mar-2005 22:44:47 (#12436)

Hello: Mr. Zengrifter

I've been having a good time playing the game of 21. Unfortunitly, I've come accross a string of what Snyder calls in his book titled BBIBJ called "standard deviatation", I've gotten a true education in the term of standard deviation.

However, I still believe in our wonderfull sport, and have truly enjoyed the game. I've had lots of fun playing: Ted the tourist/ the B.S. story's I've been telling, (it's easy and fun!!!) I had a bad session this weekend, and I played while I was in a bad mood: (Your attitude does reflect your playing). I'm embarrased to talk about my loss. My cousin was llike "what you going to tell the people on CC.com?"

I'm telling you that the sport we play is really a winning game. I'm a winner this year, eventhough I've had a bad session this weekend, and I'm only down $40 this week, I'll be a winner over time. (I had 18 hads in a row without a win). This is the game to play and I be a winner in the long run. (Bankroll) is so important.

Anyhow, just wanted to let Zengrifter know, I'm going to start on High Lo Lite this week. Have to work on the bankroll, and I'll be ready.

This game really is a winner. That's why the casinos rerally watch. Duhhh

take it Easy;
Anthony

Where do you mostly play?
Posted by zengrifter on 13-Mar-2005 18:34:13 (#12442)

Just curious, but that info will allow me to give more specific BR advice. Also, how old are you and what is your day-job occupation.? zg

What I do........
Posted by Anthony on 14-Mar-2005 09:06:28 (#12448)

Mr. Zengrifter

I'm in my late 20's and by trade I'm a car salesman. However, I've been working in the travel industry. I've been playing @ places like Main Street Station, Sam's Town, The Western, The Tuscany (nice rooms), and the Sahara. I don't make a lot of money, about 600 a week. Plus, I make some money on the side by buying and selling used cars when I come across the right opprotunity.

Thaks
Anthony

You are playing in several ...
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Mar-2005 06:04:04 (#12461)

...TIME WASTERS and need to learn to seek out quality games! zg

I'm listening Zengrifter
Posted by Anthony on 15-Mar-2005 08:49:02 (#12464)

Zengrifter,

Where should I go?

Anthony
Posted by SammyBoy on 15-Mar-2005 11:14:33 (#12466)

You should consider investing in CBJN on BJ21.com. It will give you game conditions all over the country. Good luck.

BTW, I personally would not give out too much info about myself on a message board. Send ZenGrifter an e-mail.

I don't think that you are quite ready yet...
Posted by zengrifter on 16-Mar-2005 23:26:51 (#12479)

... but for starters (downtown) -

Western, Plaza, LV Club, Binion's, El Cortez, Lady Luck are the places that typically offer the best combination of rules and penetration (the other places you mention generally have poor penetration, ESPECIALLY THE SAHARA).

And if you want really good penetration try the Suncoast in Summelin ;) zg

Mayor...
Posted by SonOfBeve on 14-Mar-2005 05:19:29 (#12447)

Is there any way for you to change the board so that when a new post is made in response to an older topic, that topic and all its responses gets moved to the top of the page? I am lazy and hate scrolling down to check for new posts. Perhaps change the format to ezboard.com type of board? I have a friend who wrote code for a message board on a website I used to run who would probably do it for you IF you decided it was a good idea.

Sorry... no change...
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Mar-2005 09:46:02 (#12450)

You might explore some of the ways you can customize your settings so that the display meets your needs.

Have you explored this:

http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?reconfigure

--Mayor

yes that made a differance
Posted by SonOfBeve on 14-Mar-2005 19:36:19 (#12454)

I didn't realize I had that option. haha. I changed my settings, thanks

Need help picking a card counting system?
Posted by Tripod on 14-Mar-2005 19:15:50 (#12453)

Relatively new player here. I am having difficulty picking a card counting system and sticking to it. Every new book I read seems to push the Hi-Low balanced count system. The first book I read on the subject of counting was Blackjack Bluebook II by Fred Renzey. He recommends an unbalanced approach and introduces a three stage Kiss count. (Stage 2 is very similar to the Hi Opt balanced count) I am looking for recommendations. A system you like and how you drilled yourself to learn it. Thank you in advance.

Are you the Tripod from "Brandywine's War"?
Posted by Titaniumman on 14-Mar-2005 21:04:31 (#12456)

The Korean conflict had "M*A*S*H". World War II had "Kelley's Heroes" and "Catch 22".

Irreverant comedies on war.

Vietnam had "Brandywine's War". One of the characters was a dog named Tripod. Tripod had his left rear leg blown off by a land mine. As if that wasn't unfortunate enough, poor old Tripod had always previously lifted his right rear leg to pee.

The result was that after having his left rear leg blown off, he now fell down every time he tried to pee. The final result was that he never peed anymore.

For your first counting system, I recommend KO if you are simply going to count as not much more than a hobby, but pick Hi-Lo if you have any ambitions toward team play or advanced methods like shuffle tracking.

-T-

KO, second the motion! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Mar-2005 06:10:54 (#12463)

Beating 6-5 BJ
Posted by SonOfBeve on 14-Mar-2005 20:55:12 (#12455)

Is there a specific count to use on games that pay 6-5, perhaps counting aces as a negative or neutral card and doubling down on blackjacks with high counts? I can't imagine that casinos suspect counters on a 6-5 game so I was trying to find a way to take the edge. Is there hope for me? - sob

No hope
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Mar-2005 23:02:19 (#12457)

>Is there a specific count to use on games that pay 6-5, perhaps counting aces as a negative or neutral card and doubling down on blackjacks with high counts?

High-Low works just fine. You will need a 30-1 spread and at least RO7.

>Is there hope for me?

I kind of remember a quote here... ah yes, Isaiah 57: "There is no hope"

What if I were to tell you...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Mar-2005 00:42:38 (#12458)

... that I have this game simmed to a DI of 6.5 (understood- this would not be considered a very good game in Nevada but it's not so bad compared to other games back East, especially in AC where the shoes come in around 5.5) with RO6, a 1:20 play-all spread (also doable in AC) and one other very critical playing condition?

If you were to tell me about 6/5 bj,
Posted by Tom on 15-Mar-2005 02:53:23 (#12459)

i'd say big FREAKING deal.

Doesn't sound bad at all with...
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Mar-2005 06:10:03 (#12462)

...sufficient BR to sustain a 1-20 spread! Give us more, bet ramping, etc. Sounds comparable to SF21, perhaps easier than sf21 because new stragies are not needed. zg

This is my formula
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 16-Mar-2005 11:16:27 (#12470)

The count I chose I call Unbalanced Zen Halves. System tags are {-1,1,2,2,3,2,1,0,-1,-2}.
An observation I made on the 6:5 game is that the EOR of the ace is almost exactly half that of a ten, as is that of the nine. So a Zen count is not a compromise, it�s perfect. Any Zen count will probably work well but I added the Halves tags for the five and nine because to beat 6:5 you�ll need all the help you can get.

This sim was done with the Atlantic City rules: H17, DOA, nDAS, RO6

Playing Indices:

12 vs. 2 : 2
12 vs. 3 : 1
12 vs. 4 : -1
12 vs. 5 : -3
12 vs. 6 : -5
13 vs. 2 : -3
13 vs. 3 : -3
15 vs. X : 1
16 vs. 9 : 3
16 vs. X : -2
16 vs. A : 1

DD 9 vs. 2 : -1
DD 9 vs. 7 : 3
DD 8 vs. 5 : 2
DD 8 vs. 6 : 1

DD A8 vs. 5 : 0
DD A8 vs. 6 : -3

Split XX vs. 5 : 4
Split XX vs. 6 : 3

Insurance at 0

Spread (in units):

Spread = 3(RC-1)

RC <= +1 : 1
RC= +2 : 3
RC= +3 : 6
RC= +4 : 9
RC= +5 : 12
RC= +6 : 15
RC= +7 : 18
RC>= +8 : 20

Results: very dependent on the number of hands in the game.

Playing One Hand ($10 BU):

Hands IBA Win Rate/100 SD/hand Desirability Index

1 0.997% $25.92 5.65 4.59
2 1.351% $36.79 5.87 6.27
3 1.232% $31.65 5.61 5.64
4 0.554% $11.53 4.69 2.46

Playing Two Hands

Hands IBA Win Rate/100 SD/hand Desirability Index

2 1.372% $37.61 4.96 7.58
3 1.135% $29.03 4.72 6.14

Of course, I would believe you! *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Mar-2005 09:40:53 (#12465)

HOPE? YES!... IF...
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Mar-2005 06:01:56 (#12460)

... you find a good 'flasher' the edge would still be over 8%! zg

Stop The Presses!
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Mar-2005 11:33:44 (#12467)

MTR Management has brought back 3/2 1D BJ to Binion's! Obviously they are sincere in their desire to court the old customers... except not us of course.

Currently the $5min tables are 6/5 and the $10min tables are 3/2... WITH 70% penetration, I might add.

This morning the only full 1D table was the $5 6/5 table out front, and every player was playing at least $10, while I got a heads-up game in the rear for 90min. zg

Sounds good but?
Posted by Victoria on 15-Mar-2005 11:44:07 (#12468)

I hope the reason the 6/5 table was full was only because the folks there had not figured out that 3/2 is back. Even though I am sure you enjoyed the heads up opportunity, if things continued with full 6/5 tables at some point management would say, why offer a good SD game when our bad SD game is loaded with players? So I think we really do need those fools who can not tell the difference to play the good game.
Also, by having these ploppys playing 3/2, the casino will make money of the game giving it longevity.
Victoria

I overheard some of them saying...
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Mar-2005 11:50:41 (#12469)

... "this table pays 6 and that one pays 3 and 6 is bigger than 3" bla bla bla zg

public education again
Posted by stainless steel rat on 16-Mar-2005 11:52:36 (#12471)

Seems that in addition to not teaching much that was taught when I went to school in the 60's, now we see kids that don't understand ratios at all either. I'll never forget the big lighted Marquee sign in Vegas this past summer "Single deck is back, and it pays a whopping 6:5 for blackjacks". "whopping" indeed...

Seems to be getting better
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 16-Mar-2005 13:29:34 (#12472)

At Circus Circus in Reno recently they had a big sign up announcing "Blackjack still pays 3:2". Looks like the casinos who offer the 3:2 are willing to do our educating for us to promote their own game over their competitors.

marketing...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 16-Mar-2005 14:37:49 (#12473)

I think the other half of the problem is "placement". Put a 6:5 at the front, put the 3:2 tables in the back. Then tell the casino management "the 6:5 tables are getting more action than the 3:2 tables, we ought to go 6:5 everywhere." Of course a grocery store manager knows that if he puts the store brand up front, the name brand back in the back, the store brand will sell more, even if it is an inferior product...

$5 3/2 games are now available as well...
Posted by zengrifter on 16-Mar-2005 23:19:06 (#12477)

... though the 6/5 games appear to be holding their own at the pits near the entrances. zg

They do the same thing with lab rats
Posted by Sonny on 17-Mar-2005 10:16:47 (#12481)

> ... though the 6/5 games appear to be holding their own at the pits near the
> entrances. zg

They set up one piece of cheese "on the square" and one with an electrical current attached to it. You would be surprised how many rats like the cheese so much that they don't mind the electrical shock.

If enough people play the 6:5 games, why bother offering 3:2 games? Well, it's a good way to filter out the smart customers. It doesn't take a genius, or even a floorman, to tell who the smart rats are.

-Sonny-

HEY!
Posted by stainless steel rat on 17-Mar-2005 13:16:05 (#12485)

watch the denigrating references to "rats"

SSR

Nothing Personal!
Posted by Sonny on 18-Mar-2005 09:58:20 (#12498)

I can�t use analogies with monkeys out of respect for Automatic Monkey. I guess rats are off limits now that you've got the new handle. After looking at the other profiles on this site I'll also steer clear of LV bears, jack rabbits, cougars, cougar fans, gorilla counters, panther counters, dog hands (or even anything Like a Dog), mega possums, praying manti, sharks, and possibly jaxels (once I figure out what they are).

I'll probably also avoid Greasy John if he's anything like the old stories describe, although that's exactly what he would want!

-Stainless Steel Sonny-

Sorry Sonny,6/5 is a loser.
Posted by Tom on 17-Mar-2005 17:20:52 (#12488)

Why do think think they're going back to 3/2,duh...it dont take a genious to figure that out,does it?

No, really?
Posted by Sonny on 18-Mar-2005 09:22:59 (#12497)

> Why do think think they're going back to 3/2,duh...it dont take a genious to
> figure that out,does it?

I think that was implied in my post.

-Sonny-

P.S.- Spellcheck
P.P.S.- Grammarcheck

You seem to be implying
Posted by Tom on 18-Mar-2005 11:51:12 (#12499)

that 6/5 is a good game for the casinos use and benefit from because it filters out smart players. A typical average BJ player knows a 6/5 blackjack is less pay than 3/2. You dont have to be smart to figure that out, it's only common sense.

Just because a player refuses to play 6/5 does not mean he's NOT a ploppy.

Among other things, yes.
Posted by Sonny on 18-Mar-2005 23:00:03 (#12510)

> You seem to be implying that 6/5 is a good game for the casinos use and
> benefit from because it filters out smart players.

To some degree, yes. The 6:5 games can benefit the house in numerous ways, only one of which is raking in more money.

> A typical average BJ player knows a 6/5 blackjack is less pay than 3/2.

Yes, but do they know how much that changes the game? Do they know that the house edge might be over six times worse? Do they know that the odds might be twice as bad as playing craps? These facts may not be common sense to typical players. Many uneducated players will play the 6:5 games because they don't think they are as bad as they really are.

> Just because a player refuses to play 6/5 does not mean he's NOT a ploppy.

True, but if a player DOES play a 6:5 game you can be assured that he IS a ploppy, or at least not an educated player.

-Sonny-

Disappointed
Posted by LVBear584 on 17-Mar-2005 11:41:08 (#12484)

I have made two visits there, on day shift and swing. Both times there were at least two players at the real single deck games. I observed some dealers dealing marginally-playable Rule of 6, with other dealers delivering only a horrible Rule of 5 game. The place may be playable if you can get there at the right time to finds heads-up play, but I think it is not likely to be often. The pen on the double decks was horrible, and a CSM has been added to the mix.

Go there on a slow mid-grave zone...
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Mar-2005 20:35:08 (#12490)

... and see if you don't get 70%/Ro7! zg

Question for Automatic Monkey
Posted by Tripod on 16-Mar-2005 16:30:59 (#12474)

I like your unbalanced Zen Count below. What level one system would you recommend to a novice good with numbers. Do you follow indices? Thank you.

KO...
Posted by zengrifter on 16-Mar-2005 23:21:22 (#12478)

... and after reading the book 'Knockout Bj' by Fuchs & Vancura you can learn the 'GriftKO 1-2D composite system (assuming you play 1-2D) which is posted elsewhere at this page. zg

KO or High-Low
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Mar-2005 15:07:48 (#12486)

Whatever works, both have their advantages, and if you ever do any shuffle tracking you will end up using High-Low. There aren't that many level 1 counts, probably none will work as well as these 2.

The new and improved Western Casino *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Sonny on 17-Mar-2005 10:35:26 (#12482)

Have you guys seen the plans for the new Barrick properties? If not I highly recomend checking out the website. Click on Development then Slideshow for a good eye-opener. I don't know who the artist was, but someone should show him that the streets will never be that shiny! And how long will it take to get that smell out of the air?

I'm all in favor of cleaning up the Downtown area, but this is getting ridiculous. They've already gotten rid of all the $1 and $2 games, now they're putting in carpet and everything!

-Sonny-

P.S.-It took me this long to ba able to fit in with the rabble there, now I'll need a whole new act!

So far so good
Posted by Theef on 17-Mar-2005 11:14:08 (#12483)

I find myself "rooting" for Barrick whenever I read about their plans. They've preserved decent BJ at their properties, and their ambitious development plans would be good for letting downtown prosper. Is it naive to consider Barrick "good guys?"

"Better Guys"
Posted by Sonny on 17-Mar-2005 17:16:26 (#12487)

> Is it naive to consider Barrick "good guys?"

I agree with you. They have maintained a playable game for red chippers and their staff continues to be pleasantly apathetic. Although they have introduced those great DD games to the Plaza and LV Club, I think that the Western�s listless pit is more a factor of the low level management and not the overall administration. The Plaza and LV Club both have fairly sharp staff as I recall.

On the gaming management scale, they are certainly the lesser of a bigger evil. They are certainly far above Harrah�s or Station Inc.

-Sonny-

It is sad the big W is being fixed up....
Posted by dali-lama on 19-Mar-2005 06:21:43 (#12515)

Its beauty is in its skid row facade, and it's
slightly insane clientle....it is the CBGB's of the casino world and
will be missed.

Ashes to ashes
Posted by Sonny on 19-Mar-2005 17:53:16 (#12520)

> Its beauty is in its skid row facade, and it's slightly insane clientle
> ....it is the CBGB's of the casino world and will be missed.

It will be a bittersweet departure. I will miss the $1-$30 spreads of the old days, but I will not miss the vagrants who constantly interrupted the game to get some action on their crumpled $1 bill. I will miss some of the regular characters that would make those smoke filled hours entertaining, but I will not miss the inebriated ploppies that would slow the game down to a crawl. I will miss hearing real stories from the lives of real, honest people, but I will not miss the incoherent ramblings of the wasted souls or the dealers who constantly have to say "You have seven, you want hit? Sir, you want card? No? Tuck cards, sir! Underneath chips, tuck cards!"

For the time being you can still find most of these amenities at the Gold Spike (if you can get a seat), although I don't know what plans Barrick has for that yet. If you ever find yourself reminiscing about the old days of the Western, you can probably find comparable accommodations almost anywhere in North Las Vegas. As long as there are gamblers there will be Westerns, if you know where to find them.

-Sonny-

True Sonny...but
Posted by dali-lama on 20-Mar-2005 05:46:25 (#12526)

as we all know any progress in BJ is a step backwards for
advantage play. The fancier a place is, the more it must produce,
and the more it must produce coincides with measures that interfer with advantage play (ie. CSM's, 6/5 bj,and the like). When all of vegas comes
up to par they'll all have carpets, wich will, inevitable turn into
mindplay machines....:-)

better to bulldoze Bellagio than the Western
Posted by John Lewis on 20-Mar-2005 03:27:03 (#12525)

The Western is (soon to be "was," evidently) my favorite place in the town.

Best SCORE of any game in town (or anywhere in Nevada, perhaps) consistently, per CBJN. Great SD games at low stakes for those of us who are the "common man." $3 40 oz draft beer (even malt liquor draft ["Western Ale"], for that portion of the clientelle on a severely restricted budget). Waitresses who really appreciate and smile at a $1 tip for a drink. Open facade, sunlight, breeze, fresh air. Street theater INSIDE. Guard with a big damn gun at the door 24h for that "special feeling" of security, which I personally needed there a couple of times.

Great times, great stories, great blackjack. Dealers that don't speak English so they leave you alone. Pretty and nice asian female dealers. Great to stare at when you're inebriated to the staring stage.

Like life itself, too good to last.

John Lewis

Years away
Posted by SonOfBeve on 20-Mar-2005 22:55:38 (#12531)

There is no use losing hope now, the Western will not be replaced for years. They are renevating the current casino, they just installed a new bingo section that is very nice and the old bingo section is going to be made into a lounge with a live band. 2 more blackjack tables, 1 roulette, and 1 or 2 craps tables will be installed fairly soon. (within a year). Barrack will probably keep decent blackjack rules as long as it is profitable. Even with a few advantage players winning from time to time, the profit is still there from the drunks that refuse to leave until they have no money left in their wallet or reach their ATM withdrawal limit, they never leave while they are ahead.

thank you for correcting my misconceptions
Posted by John Lewis on 21-Mar-2005 06:42:10 (#12538)

"There is no use losing hope now, the Western will not be replaced for years. They are renevating the current casino, they just installed a new bingo section that is very nice and the old bingo section is going to be made into a lounge with a live band. 2 more blackjack tables, 1 roulette, and 1 or 2 craps tables will be installed fairly soon. (within a year)."

They're IMPROVING the place. Live band, MORE blackjack tables. Fantastic. Thanks for the great news.

"Barrack will probably keep decent blackjack rules as long as it is profitable. Even with a few advantage players winning from time to time, the profit is still there from the drunks ..."

I'd say their blackjack games are very profitable. In spite of what you'd think by the neighborhood, I don't remember (caveat, poor memory) really seeing anyone drunk playing blackjack, other than myself. And I've spent quite a bit of time in there over the last couple of years. That doesn't count the people who come up to the table for one or two bets, lose and leave, of course.

Their typical player is not drunk, not a bum. Just poor. Think they know what they're doing but most certainly don't. Coming in with their big stash. Paycheck, or big night out, or whatever. They usually dump a couple of hundred dollars in 30 minutes or an hour and then leave crestfallen. If they don't bump their bets much they can last longer. You don't see them again the whole trip. Nor have I ever have seen another counter in there, with the possible exception of a couple of intelligent young kids I saw in there once (red chip).

I don't remember seeing anyone win and walk away with money in there either, now that I think about it, though I'm sure I don't remember all experieces. People there tend to play until they're tapped out. I have won some, of course, but considering what I've tipped, spent on beer, and lost on two occasions when too boozed up (most notably, the infamous "no look double down" night), I'm pretty much even, too.

So, yes, they're making money with their blackjack games. So perhaps, as you've suggested, things won't go to hell after all.

I love that place.

Western somewhat overrated...
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Mar-2005 23:12:56 (#12534)

... as to penetration, but entirely palyable nonetheless. zg

Binion's Update
Posted by zengrifter on 18-Mar-2005 12:45:22 (#12501)

I counted 2 CSMs and 1/3 of the 1Ds still pay 6/5. On the 3/2 1Ds most dealers are giving Ro7. No apparent improvement in the 2D games which are now the majority. zg

pill
Posted by MrPill on 18-Mar-2005 14:55:05 (#12503)

ZG,

I had heard that they had also changed the DD to DAS with the change in management?

Pill

Hmmm... I'll check it out! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 18-Mar-2005 15:02:39 (#12504)

Binions update.......
Posted by dali-lama on 19-Mar-2005 06:13:53 (#12514)

True Binions is paying 3/2 BJ sing deck. There is a 6/5 in front (I was impressed, it was the least busy table ).
Weekend Pen isn't good. Rule of 6 with a full table, and rule of 5 with fewer people. Will it improve? hope so but doubt it.

best DL

DD is DAS now *NM*
Posted by Goose on 19-Mar-2005 14:36:08 (#12519)

Defining a ploppy
Posted by Victoria on 18-Mar-2005 15:33:07 (#12505)

In reading posts here, I find many of us have a wide variation in just who we define as a "ploppy." For some, it is anyone who is not a proficient AP, for myself an amatuer, a tourist and a good basic strategy player may not necessarily be a ploppy and for others there are other requirements.

In my mind, to qualify for the esteemed position of ploppy, one must first of all of have a severe degree of "know it all" attitude combined with just enough knowledge and lack of understanding of the game, to sound like they know what they are talking about when they tell everyone what to do.
He is the, someone has to take a hit, you ruined a perfectly good 18 (works for both soft 18 and splitting 9's), the you took the dealers bust card and the you ruined the flow guy, besides tons of others.
He will let everyone know just how you messed up the table.

Somehow, he knew that that 10 was coming out before the 5 that made the dealers hand and it will cause the rest of the shoe to be bad for the *team.
*He is not only a team player but the self appointed leader of the team.
Though I played team sports in school, I never quite understood his team concept since no team member has shared my losses or asked to share my wins in the past.
Ploppys come it seems in all ages, sexes, races and financial groups. Female ploppys generally annoy me the most but male ones have one additional quality not found in female ploppys; that is by being born male they naturally know how to play blackjack better than any mere girl and will be there to consistantly tell me what I did wrong.

So, for me a ploppy is a know it all, non AP, who's greatest pleasure is telling everyone around him just how to play a game that he actually does not know how to play.

Victoria (who was once named by a ploppy as the "Queen of the anti-flow" Whatever the hell that is.

Nah
Posted by Rob V. on 18-Mar-2005 18:21:00 (#12506)

I think you're overdefining it. I think the word you're looking for is 'jerk'.

I've always thought 'ploppy' to be needlessly offensive-sounding, but I use it. Who am I to say how someone wants to spend their money? The reason I use it is because the alternative, 'civilian', is too cliche. Almost every bj book, especially from the 70s, equates card counting with some military conflict. I'll talk to my brother about some recent casino adventure, and he'll usually interrupt me and ask, "But Rob, was it like war?!" Hardy har, good times, good tim... well, I guess you have to be there.

So, using 'civilian' makes me feel silly. Anyway,'ploppy' to me just means a non-AP.

"Queen of the anti-flow" - that's actually pretty funny. Maybe I had to be there.

Ploppy Attitude
Posted by Big Cowboy on 18-Mar-2005 19:49:35 (#12507)

So Victoria, I'm just curious as to how you deal with your kind of "ploppys." I can easily relate to all the characteristics you described because I have been around ploppys everywhere I go. They show up and act like they gamble for "fun," and they are the smart ones. Believe me stupidly throwing money to the house is not my idea of fun. If I am winning, I can handle smoke being blown up my nose, listening to nonstop whining, being insulted regularly, etc. They only seem to annoy me when I'm losing, and then it seems as though everything they do just causes me to lose some more. I have no compassion for ploppys. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to learn basic strategy at the very least or to just go to the casino gift shop and buy a basic strategy guide card.

dealing with the boneheads any ideas?
Posted by eyesfor21 on 18-Mar-2005 22:20:08 (#12508)

last week and lady playing beside me
a know it type who gambles
daily and says to the dealer don't deal
another round thats the rules.
Boy o Boy, I explained that if we get another
round it could benefit us and if she
didn't want to play it to sit out.
The lady went a little mental and could
not understand this at all,and kept
preaching THATS THE RULES. What to do?
Also quite frequently is rookies telling us
good players how to play,"why you hitting, why you standing,
why you splitting,you screwed it up for us.

How do you all handle these boneheads?
Ignore only goes so far.

Embrace the ploppies
Posted by Sonny on 19-Mar-2005 18:19:14 (#12521)

> The lady went a little mental and could not understand this at all,and kept
> preaching THATS THE RULES. What to do?

That depends. If she was the only person at the table I would bother her until she left. Then I could be alone at the table with better penetration. Otherwise I would find another table. If you can't get a decent game with her around, leave.

> Also quite frequently is rookies telling us good players how to play,"why you
> hitting, why you standing, why you splitting,you screwed it up for us.

These are some of the best players to learn from. Watch them hit a pair of aces and listen to their excuse. Watch them stand on a soft 17 and listen to their reasoning. Use these excuses later as free camouflage. When you hit a 12 vs 4, say "I just felt lucky" or "I thought I had 11." When you double down on a soft eighteen vs 3 (they HATE that!) say "Darn, that was stupid!" or "No matter what I do I keep winning! I'm going to double everything" This will give you an excuse to double down on eight or split tens later.

Remember, the casino WANTS these people there, not you. The only way to survive in the casinos is to look like the idiots they love so much. One of my best lines was screaming "I am the greatest blackjack player in the world!" when I got a blackjack on a max bet. It brought plenty of attention from the pit, but they laughed it off and thought I was just another drunken sucker making a lucky bet with too much of his paycheck at stake. The worst players are always the ones that brag the most. When was the last time you saw a card counter bragging to a floorman?

-Sonny-

sony thks.
Posted by eyesfor21 on 19-Mar-2005 20:40:56 (#12522)

good ideas..
but certain dealers I know like to give
the extra rounds..and if boneheads keep telling
them to shuffle by saying that's the rules...this hurts.
the rookies must be dealt with. Thats what Iam dealing with.

Ploppies = life blood of counters
Posted by Virgin Counter on 19-Mar-2005 02:02:01 (#12513)

Counters only exist because of ploppies. That is true now and true back in the 60's and 70's. If everyone was playing perfect basic strategy or counting, the house would hard pressed to support the game.

Ploppies are the continous IV that allows the AVP to exist. Everytime you encounter a ploppy you should say to yourself "Thank you for coming to this casino and being such a dumb ass. You keep me in business. God bless you when you split tens against a dealer 10."

If I am wrong or out of line with this post I challenge any of you whiners to refute my position. Furthermore, I respectfully ask The Mayor to not allow anymore posts about ploppies on this forum. I think there are far more important issues to discuss. Just my take, sorry if I offended anyone. VC.

Projection?
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Mar-2005 10:57:25 (#12516)

>Furthermore, I respectfully ask The Mayor to not allow anymore posts about ploppies on this forum. I think there are far more important issues to discuss.

I think the subject of "ploppies" is important for blackjack. I don't know which posting guideline this discussion violates, but if you think it violates a guideline, you are welcome to argue that point.

>Just my take, sorry if I offended anyone. VC.

It is very difficult to go through life without offending people. If people get offended by something I do or say, my approach is to say: "what is it in you that is just like the thing you are offended by". This is called "projection" and is a classical principle of modern psychology.

--Mayor

One time
Posted by Victoria on 19-Mar-2005 12:35:37 (#12517)

Here is something that happened with a woman ploppy that I might have put on this board a while ago. Do not exactly remember the cards hit but do remember the result.

For Automatic Monkey, this is a case where a perfect Basic Strategy player is a pure ploppy in my opinion.

This lady only plays at third base, plays perfect basic strategy and yells, screams, relentlessly carries on when anyone deviates from B.S. We are playing near the end of a shoe which went negative and I am at first base. Get a nine vs a dealer 3, but the count being so low I decide to hit and not double. Immediately she starts talking about how bad of a play it is and I should really learn how to play before sitting on a green chip table and on and on. Meanwhile I think I hit a 2 and then a 9 or a 10 for a 20 or 21. She is pat with something around 18, the dealer lands up with 13 hits a 6 and beats her while I get a win. She is now loud, I took the bust card, etc, etc. The dealer has asked her to stop, the pit is walking over slowly and I calmly ask her to give me her chips. She responds with a "What?" I say, "if you want me to play your way I will but only with your money." Dealer puts his head down hiding his laugh, pit turns away facing me smiling and shaking his head and the guy next to me says something like he had wished he had said that.

This woman had earlier complained to the pit about several dealers, complained to the pit boss about someone in the pit, complained about every player who played with her.

Now I got away with this easily, and have done the same thing with an annoying guy once but I think if it were a guy on guy thing with loads of testosterone flying, the results might be quite different.

I am not sure, but I think that incident (smaller strip place) has given me at least temporary tolerance on that shift.

Generally, I either take it or use what I call my death stare. I have been tempted many times to let that ploppy jerk know that he is not dealing with some amatuer but that is self destructive.

There is a very special place in my heart for the ploppy dealer. The jerk who when you hit your 12 vs 2 and bust and the next card makes his hand, picks up your bust card and semi places it on his hand to show you that you screwed up, or he sides with his regular ploppys who jump on you.

Victoria

Reminds me of a dealer story...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Mar-2005 22:39:24 (#12509)

A female dealer giving me to much advice, telling me when and when not to split 9's etc.- I tell her "Look, I don't need any advice on gambling from a female." She was pissed but she left me alone afer that. That was a weird night- I remember dealing with this mean-old-man AP at that same table that night, disdainfully glaring at me and puffing his cigar every move I made.

To me a ploppy is a non-AP, non-Basic Strategy player. A BS player is doing OK with a decent comp program.

an opinion...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 19-Mar-2005 00:48:38 (#12511)

my definition:

ploppy. noun. obnoxious player that may or may not know about basic strategy, may or may not even know the complete rules of the game, and may or may not be superstitious and all the other things common to gamblers. But the most important point is obnoxious. As in rude. insulting. complaining about everything from someone making a sound BS play to a player walking away from the table before the shuffle...

non-AP players are perfectly OK in general. Most are polite, and often make the table "fun". But a rare few ascend (descend) to the level of "ploppy" and make the game about as enjoyable as a rectal exam...

a ploppy is a ploppy is a ploppy...
Posted by BlackJackHack on 19-Mar-2005 01:42:42 (#12512)

I respectfully disagree.

There are two principal types of blackjack players - (1) proficient APs, and (2) losers (I omit a third, statistically insignificant, category - cheaters).

"Ploppy" is the term generally used by APs to describe the losers who repeatedly "plop" their money on the table and watch it go down the hole. There are nice ploppies. There are mean ploppies. There are ploppies that stand on 15 v. 7 and double on A2 v. 2 and lose their money quickly. There are a select few ploppies (1 in 100?) that play correct basic strategy and gradually lose over time. All of them, however, are ploppies.

rat and I seem to agree
Posted by Victoria on 19-Mar-2005 12:41:36 (#12518)

I think stainless steel rat and I are on the same page. To me calling every non AP a ploppy dilutes the negativity of the word. A nice guy who just does not know how to play is a positive person for an AP and the house. We both need this guy and because I consider the word ploppy to be a bad thing, I only wish to include those who annoy me.

I guess I was right though, we do have several definitions of the term.

another word...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 19-Mar-2005 20:55:49 (#12523)

I like "Non-AP" == "civilian". Rude/obnoxious non-AP == ploppy.

Of course, nothing says that an AP could not be a ploppy, I just haven't met one yet. :)

Some of the rudest people in casinos are AP's *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 21-Mar-2005 22:38:01 (#12548)

you may be right
Posted by stainless steel rat on 22-Mar-2005 12:30:37 (#12556)

I don't run into very many that I am sure are "AP"s. Of course, I have seen a few "ploppies" that after watching and playing with them, I discover that they are really APs with a "ploppy act".

So I suppose you never know whether that jerk ploppy you played with was a ploppy or an AP. :)

A Ploppy's, a Ploppy's, a Ploppy.
Posted by trixie on 20-Mar-2005 12:01:52 (#12528)

Sure hope so. From my fanny pack to my plaid goodwill top, to my lucky necklace, to my bad hair, to the BS card taped to my phone and my loving spouse with a bucket of quarters buming a C. I get a lot of heat. Not from the pit but some of the other players. Chuckles, snickers, barbs, rocks, I get them all. Sometimes nice dealers have tried to cover for me. Those people in the pits seem to just wince and walk away. I think it's because I make all those stupid plays; split 4's or maybe double instead, double 11 vs. and ace, why sometimes I insure my BJ against an ace and I've been known to spit 10's. Not any ten's just naturals and then not all the time. Never know what I'm gonna do. I do seem to be ahead a few dollars and sometimes for evening dinner I can clean up real nice.

Wish I knew how to spit tens! :) *NM*
Posted by CanKen on 20-Mar-2005 12:42:35 (#12529)

Just DO IT! ...
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Mar-2005 19:01:59 (#12546)

... when the index calls for it. zg

"Spitting" tens
Posted by CanKen on 22-Mar-2005 09:58:01 (#12552)

Sorry; I was just trying to make a feeble joke based on the typo in the previous message. The idea of spitting a couple of tens onto the table whenever I wanted kind of amused me.

I can't spit 10's either, but I can expectorate 8's! ;-) *NM*
Posted by Dog Hand on 25-Mar-2005 00:24:28 (#12595)

"Blackjack Zone" question
Posted by John Lewis on 20-Mar-2005 03:06:23 (#12524)

If one purchases his/her copy of "The Blackjack Zone" on this site can it be provided with an autograph by Eliot?

Thank you.

Of course! *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Mar-2005 09:46:48 (#12527)

Thanks! I'm ordering one immediately. *NM*
Posted by John Lewis on 21-Mar-2005 05:38:24 (#12537)

BJ at Sea?????'s......
Posted by phantom007 on 20-Mar-2005 22:07:35 (#12530)

Most recent free "teaser" edition of BJ Insider that I receive on the e-mail service had lots of interesting info. Article there by the Mayor (Published AGAIN I see!), as well as more info., including a piece on CC paranoia at the same Strip store I was "exited" from last month...have to buy membership to read the rest of it...it is on my "to do" list.

Anyhow, there was an announcement in there about a "BJ Tourney Cruise" departing San Diego circa. 10/31/05, and lasting 8 calendar days. The cruise line is Carnival, the tourney sponsor is "Texas Tournaments", and there are chances to win "free trips" via satellite tourney(s) at "Global Casino".

Basics are something like:

---$619 per person, presuming double occupancy.
---Several "free" cocktail parties.
---Several stops at various "ports of call", such as Alcupulco (sp?).
---Complimentary 24 Hour Room service.
---Planned attendance of many BJ "NAMES"....some guy named Wong, Ken Smith (well known at least in MS Tourney circles), plus several unnamed MIT Team Players.
---$300. Buy-in with #2 $150 Re-buys, Elimination Format...top $ winner of each 6 players at a table advances.
---1st Prize $50k (presuming #300 participants), and less amounts in a graduated fashion for about the top 10.

QUESTIONS???

1. Hoping anyone having participated in same in past will share experience, EV, etc.???

2. Certainly, comp's for RFBA +/- "Sea-fare" is highly unlikely, but is the Tourney itself at least 100% return??? (Most Land-based Tourney's in which I have played have included RFB...i.e., Room, some Food, and Beverage, AND 100+% return of Prize $ as related to Buy-in AND Re-Buys).

3. Legit/Honest/Fair???

4. How many Tourneys, and therefore, most likely, how many Re-Buys during this 8-day stretch???

5. Do these Carnival Cruises have "regular Casino's", and if "yes", anything worth playing??? If "no", what in the hell does one do when not playing in the Tourney???

6. Will they let one fish off of the boat???

7. Do they have "Donkey Shows" in the various "Ports of call"???

8. Are the "Big Names" alluded to above comp'd, or paying like the rest of us???

9. What is the EV on the Global Casino Satellite.....are we talking a $20. Buy-in for a 1/25 chance for a "free" $619. trip.....or literally several hundred idiots betting hundreds each for same???

10. Should I win $50K, or whatever, do I have to "claim it" upon return to San Diego??? Will it be paid in CASH or CHECK??? Do they do "Cavity Searches" there???

GRIN!

Thank you in advance for your responses.

phantom007.

Tourney Cruise *LINK*
Posted by MrPill on 21-Mar-2005 11:50:24 (#12541)

Phantom,

I have not been on one of these cruises before and thought about going on this one but due to the fact that it is sailing out of San Diego it would add a lot of cost for me and my wife to get there.

"Texas Tournaments" is run by Rick Jensen and he seems to be a very up and up guy. My understanding is that he runs BJ tournaments at various locations throughout Texas and some in Vegas as "warmups" for some of the big tourneys like the LV Hilton million Dollar Tourney.

I would suggest going to the link below and ask questions to Rick directly, he can give you all the details. His handle there is TxTourplayer.

I have competed in several tourney's locally and they are a lot of fun and my biggest win to date has been 15K. It does take a diffecrent style of play to be successful and a good amount of luck.

Ken Smith who runs the board at the link below has some good tourney articles there. Also if you look around Ken's board you can find other threads that talk about this cruise, just do a list threads by TxTourplayer.

Good Luck,
Pill

Thanks! *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 22-Mar-2005 22:04:00 (#12566)

The problem with Princess Cruise casinos...
Posted by zengrifter on 23-Mar-2005 14:37:45 (#12579)

... is that it is very easy to be immediately escorted off the property while at sea. zg

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