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Threads 1801 to 1830

cardcounter software
Posted by Mike on 11-Jun-2005 21:41:50 (#13287)

Hi,

I've found a demo version of a nice little program called carcounter the demo can be found here: http://www.bju21.com/cardcounter.exe i've try to order the software for 59$ but the online order form wont work and the webmaster is not responding to my requests.

The program simce quite old year 2000 but it's exactly what i was looking for. Can anyone point me to the full version or a registration number or if you know any other software that would coverthe same functions.

thanks in advance for your help
mike

Please do not confuse the linked website with BJ21.com; there is no affiliation whatsoever *NM*
Posted by Al Rogers on 11-Jun-2005 23:03:02 (#13288)

Excerpt from Barfy TR
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Jun-2005 15:00:36 (#13297)

POSTED BY PERMISSION OF HENRY TAMBURIN,
PUBLISHER OF THE BLACKJACK INSIDER NEWSLETTER
http://www.bjinsider.com/newsletter.shtml

April May Trip Excerpt -

... We had arranged to meet Stanford Wong, and Al and Chris from Pi Yee Press at a craps table, where we would all pass the dice back around to Stanford as often as we could. SW would use the dice control methods he’s been honing for the past year, and we would all bet on his dice rolls, hopefully making some money in the process. My old buddy Turtle stopped by to check out the action, but didn’t play. Despite all the time Turtle’s hung around casinos in his life, he’s never learned the game of craps, so he stood next to me and just watched the proceedings. As it turned out, he was the wise one. I was betting $5 or $10 on the pass line, and taking $50 odds. I’d also place bet the six and eight for $30 or $60 each. Come bets take too much time and clutter up the area of the table that Wong needs to be kept clear as his landing zone. The Grifter and Chris anchored the landing zone at the end of the table, keeping that area clear of chips. Stanford started out well, and he held the dice for a decent amount of time on each of his early turns, but his last two rolls turned ugly and he sevened out at critical times, just after we were all set up with lots of chips upon the layout. I wound up losing $260 at this would-be display of skilled dice shooting.

Chris and I supplied the comps for the five of us as we had dinner in the Carson Street Caf�. Al told us Stanford usually makes money for them at the dice table and this was SW’s first craps loss in the last month or two. Just my luck, huh? Chris brought us up to date on the doings of the BJ21.com website and told us which books were selling well – mine included. Pi Yee Press sells a lot of books and You’ve Got Heat was their best selling title in November, December and January. It finally got supplanted by Steve Forte’s new book. Al told us of his campaign to get the Nevada legislature to drop a proposed bill that would have allowed casino managers and security goons to have access to DMV records. As it turned out, the bill was eventually voted down to our vast relief. Stanford gave us tips on how to practice at home to hone your controlled dice shooting skills. The Grifter regaled us with tales of the poker and blackjack tournaments held in Federal Prison Camp, and how he got an edge over his fellow inmates. Wong just loves The Grifter’s stories and always regards him as a fascinating character. We also discussed the math behind some of the blackjack side-bets we had been exploiting, with insightful help from SW. I had the filet mignon again while most of us ordered various steak dinners as well. There’s nothing as fine as a relaxed dinner with knowledgeable friends, especially if one of them is Stanford Wong, and you also have The Grifter and Al telling their entertaining stories.

Now inspired by my dinner companions, I returned to the hi-limit room and bought in for $300 at the $25 double-deck table. In a very short time, I won back $410 of the $560 I had lost here this day in both craps and blackjack.

Then I hooked up with The Grifter again, this time at Fitzgerald’s, where we got surprisingly decent penetration at a double-deck table with DAS. It’s unusual to find Double-After-Splitting at the downtown double-deckers. At my lowest point during this four-hour session, I was in for $600 and down to my last few chips before staging a rally to dig out.

During this session, The Grifter whispered to me, "two of spades," when he saw the dealer scoop two aces in front of that 'key' card. About three rounds into the next shuffle, I saw the two of spades come out on the next-to-last card dealt on that round, and nudged Grif, who had seen it too, and nodded. Before the next round, and despite a true count of minus three, The Grifter, strategically positioned at first base, spread to two spots, with max bets on each. I spread to two spots of only $50 each, kind of hedging my bets. The essence of key-card ace prediction is that those two aces should soon follow that two of spades key card. In this case, Grif was following what he calls a "super-key-card," a key card followed by two aces. We would hope to catch one or both as the first cards of our hands, and then hopefully catch a ten on that.

Unbelievable! Two max bets on a minus three count, and The Grifter caught both aces with matching tens! Grif flipped over the two blackjacks and announced to the other players and the pit, in mock dismay that, "The odds of getting two blackjacks at the same time are 500-1 and these bastards are only paying me 3-2!"

-- end excerpt

Current Issue of Blackjack Insider: June issue #65
http://www.bjinsider.com/newsletter.shtml

contents -

IT'S ONLY A MILLION DOLLARS, ANYWAY … by Dave "Hollywood" Stann
PLAYING FOR A MILLION DOLLARS, NO SWEAT (YEAH RIGHT) by LV Tournament Pro
LAS VEGAS TRIP REPORT-April-May, 2005 by Barfarkel (aka LV Pro)
INTRODUCTION TO RISK by Eliot Jacobsen
WHY SWITCH FROM BLACKJACK TO VIDEO POKER? By Jean Scott
HAND LENGTH IN CRAPS: HOW IMPRESSIVE ARE THOSE MONSTER ROLLS? By Dan Pronovost
ATLANTIC CITY BLACKJACK REPORT by Alene Paone and Frank Scoblete
THREE TOURNAMENT PLAYING MISTAKES ON THE SAME HAND by Kenneth Smith
ALL ABOUT POKER- POCKET PAIRS by Bill Burton
BLACKJACK TOURNAMENT SCHEDULE

Re:
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 14-Jun-2005 15:47:09 (#13298)

Grif, I always get a kick out of reading about your colorful exploits. Tack this one on to the list.

-Shaggy

dealer breakratio is 1 out of 3.5 ok I know that ... but
Posted by Stuart Wild on 14-Jun-2005 18:25:26 (#13300)

Between which minus truecount and plus truecount the dealer breaks more often.
Is there any computer simulation done. I know that the dealer breaks more often at higher counts, but there must be a math window between a TC -1 and TC plus 1 or something.. Anybody? Just a thought?!

this was discussed
Posted by stainless steel rat on 14-Jun-2005 22:15:13 (#13302)

somewhere in the past. Perhaps at bjmath or something similar. Surprisingly the dealer breaks more often at small counts, not high counts...

Small meaning...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Jun-2005 23:39:56 (#13303)

...low to medium positive counts, right? At super high counts the rate of dealer no-draw hands starts to go up. But I'll still take them every time!

The real question is...
Posted by Learning to count on 15-Jun-2005 09:41:29 (#13304)

is this information relevent to playing the game as far as strategy goes. Just because past play sets a standard of information we cannot use this as a playing device to predict how we will play the game. I may be wrong but such talk may lead to VOODOO!

bubble, bubble, toil and trouble...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 15-Jun-2005 11:00:46 (#13307)

Yep, it can lead to voodoo. The point is to play by the count. Whether the dealer breaks or not more frequently does not matter, the only thing that matters is that on + counts we have an edge and have to take advantage of it. What that advantage really is does not matter (does the dealer break more often, do we get more snappers, etc.)

I believe
Posted by stainless steel rat on 15-Jun-2005 10:58:53 (#13306)

that the answer was "small counts" = negative counts as well.

The discussion pointed out that on a bigger count, yes a dealer 6 up will break more frequently than on low counts. But the dealer won't get that 6 up as often in high counts...

I didn't pay careful attention since it seemed irrelevant to me, we all know when to bet big and how to do BS departures, and hopefully come out on top more often than not. But I have recently played two nights on the MS coast where I can't remember the dealer breaking during big counts. Kept getting 10's up almost every time, and only occasionally might have a 5 or 6 in the hole and break there... Of course I got plenty of stiffs with a DD TC of +10, and there's no obvious reason to stand on 12 vs dealer 10 up. :)

I don't think he'll break more often in negative counts
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Jun-2005 11:48:43 (#13308)

If all the cards left are 5 or lower the dealer can never break. Oddly the dealer will always break if there are only 8's left, but this applies to no other card.

if you had that kind of counting system
Posted by stainless steel rat on 15-Jun-2005 22:43:46 (#13314)

you would probably be right. But hi-lo tosses in the 6's, and ignores the 7-9 cards completely, which means in a - count, there are fewer A-10's, but there could well be plenty of 6-9's available.

As I said, this wasn't my computation, I was just relaying something that had come up previously. I believe someone had done a Sim (might have been Norm, I am not sure) that simply tallied dealer breaks against every TC value encountered, and the result surprised me initially as I thought (like most) that higher counts would produce more breaks. The actual answer might have been "near zero breaks more" for all I remember about it. It was one of those "factoids" that is interesting but useless, IMHO. :)

Break-ratio question... *LINK*
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Jun-2005 20:52:45 (#13312)

...is somewhere between irrelevent and dumb. zg

Any word on...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 14-Jun-2005 19:53:35 (#13301)

The Blackjack ball. Someone asked this question last month and the thread fizzled. I will be due for a trip to LV around then and would consider attending. I sent my email addr for the updates and recieved nothing. Doesn't seem to be much on the RGE site either.

-Felix

Not too much
Posted by Sonny on 15-Jun-2005 09:43:26 (#13305)

The last thing I heard on 5/19 is that they were trying to find out what kind of sponsors they could get. The location will depend entirely on the funding from sponsors and the production company covering the event so much of the party is still up in the air.

I have not heard anything new since then.

-Sonny-

Monthly Podiums?
Posted by Cyrano on 15-Jun-2005 17:51:23 (#13309)

Mayor,

What happened to the June Podium?

See this link...
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Jun-2005 18:47:29 (#13310)

http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?read=13094

That's too bad.. :-(
Posted by Cyrano on 15-Jun-2005 20:51:26 (#13311)

I greatly enjoyed those monthly nuggets of wisdom.

We encourage GUEST PODIUMS!...
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Jun-2005 20:54:44 (#13313)

... give it a shot. zg

Why don't you write a couple, ZG?! *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 16-Jun-2005 23:00:37 (#13315)

Good suggestion *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 17-Jun-2005 01:32:54 (#13316)

I for one would like to read a Zengrifter podium or three.

Cheers,

Barfarkel

Ok, here's one... *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Jun-2005 13:27:12 (#13317)

Medical Marijuana - Just Say Know!

by Marcus K. Dalton

Angel McClary Raich is seriously ill. Diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor and several complicating conditions, Raich found traditional medical treatments to be of little use. Having exhausted every legal alternative, her doctor recommended that she try marijuana and it worked. Raich found that marijuana alleviated her symptoms substantially.

And, under California law, Raich can possess and use marijuana pursuant to a doctor’s prescription or recommendation.

Yet according to the federal government, even such minimal marijuana possession approved by a doctor remains illegal.

Fearing potential prosecution, Raich went to federal court seeking a declaratory judgment that, among other things, the federal government lacks the constitutional authority to prohibit simple marijuana possession for personal medical use. Represented by noted libertarian Randy Barnett, Raich argued that, at least as applied to her situation, the federal Controlled Substances Act (CSA) is unconstitutional.

On behalf of Raich, Professor Barnett argued that the cultivation and possession of marijuana “solely for the personal medical use of seriously ill individuals, as recommended by their physician and authorized by State law” is simply beyond the reach of federal power. Under our constitutional structure, states retain “broad powers to define criminal law, regulate medical practice, and protect the lives of their citizens.”

Federal power, on the other hand, is limited to the specific grant of enumerated powers in the Constitution, and does not reach mundane questions of criminal law. No matter how worthy the purpose of a given federal statute, it remains invalid if it exceeds the constitutionally proscribed bounds.

Last week, the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in her case, Ashcroft v. Raich.

It's good to know that the federal government is being vigilant when it comes to the really dangerous people: those unrepentant chronic-pain patients who viciously insist on using marijuana to relieve their suffering. In last week's 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court ruled that federal drug laws supersede the laws several states have passed in recent years legalizing the production and use of marijuana for medicinal purposes.

Apparently, the actions of a sick woman in California growing pot in her basement for her medical needs affect ''interstate commerce," which means that the Constitution says it's all right to bring in the feds.

Sick people pose no threat, so why make them suffer?

I've got that all-over tingly feeling not felt since Martha Stewart was put away and America's mean streets made safe again.

Thank G-D we've got that particular homeland security problem under control. In the age of terror, one can never be too careful with dying people who have nothing left to lose.

The high court's decision, in fact, had little to do with whether suffering people deserve relief, but whether the federal government has authority over states that have authorized medical marijuana use. To date, 11 states have such laws: Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Vermont and Washington.

While lawyers hash out the legal intricacies, normal people are left wondering whether the Supreme Court has been partaking of the evil weed. Exceptions would be dissenters Chief Justice William Rehnquist and Justices Sandra Day O'Connor and Clarence Thomas. After all, who gets hurt when dying or sick people smoke pot?

It seems remote to ridiculous that federal agents now will start arresting sick people for getting high, although stranger things can and do happen.

Ironically, the Supreme Court ruling follows a study by Harvard professor Jeffrey Miron recommending that the United States legalize and tax marijuana. Endorsed by some 500 economists, including Milton Friedman, the report noted the high cost of marijuana prohibition - about $7.7 billion annually - and the boon to the economy that an estimated $6.2 billion per year in taxes would provide.

Justice John Paul Stevens, who wrote the court's decision, offered a glimmer of hope when he noted that Congress could change the law to allow for medicinal uses of marijuana. By any measure, such a legal shift is long overdue and likely would be hugely popular.

MSNBC's Web site conducted an unscientific poll on Monday, posting this question: "Should the federal government prosecute medical marijuana users, now that it has been given the OK by the Supreme Court?" By midday, 88 percent of the 63,000 people who had chosen to respond said "no." Ten percent said "yes," and 2 percent weren't sure. Don't worry, two-percenters. It wears off in about three hours, and then you can make up your mind.

More than 60 U.S. and international health organizations, including the American Public Health Association and the American Nurses Association, support allowing sick people to use marijuana under a doctor's care, according to the marijuana advocacy group NORML. Others, including the American Cancer Society and the American Medical Association, favor more research into the medical uses of marijuana, according to NORML.

As absurd as the ruling on Monday seems, advocates for medical marijuana are not optimistic that Congress will have the courage to pass more reasonable marijuana laws. Which raises the question: Whatever happened to compassionate conservatism?

What's more conservative, after all, than getting the federal government out of private, victimless, state-sanctioned decisions? And what's more compassionate than letting a woman with brain cancer feel a little less tortured during her final days?

Congress has an opportunity to demonstrate how compassionate conservatism works by passing a recently reintroduced bipartisan measure: the States' Rights to Medical Marijuana Act (House Resolution 2087). Defeated previously, the act would change marijuana's classification so that doctors could prescribe it under certain circumstances without altering current laws related to recreational use.

Thanks to the triumph of common sense over Prohibition, I can at least drink to that.

-------------------------------
Marcus K. Dalton is the Managing Editor of the Las Vegas Tribune.

err, uhh...
Posted by The Mayor on 17-Jun-2005 13:57:38 (#13319)

While I think your writing is excellent (do you need to be told that?), I think the purpose of the podium is to discuss a matter related to advantage gaming. Legalizing pot doesn't seem to be quite in that jurisdiction.

If you want to write something for a podium, please just send me the text via email and I will post it in the "podium" section of this site.

Thanks,

--Mayor

Not quite what we had in mind *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 18-Jun-2005 01:17:57 (#13321)

I know you don't want to give away any good games you're currently exploiting, but how about something on either general low stakes tips for downtown LV games, or a "how to get started" piece on ace tracking?

Actually, any subject from you related to advantage gambling would be appreciated.

Your choice.

Cheers,

Barfarkel

Yes that would be good
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Jun-2005 09:25:40 (#13322)

I'd love to hear more about this pitch game ace tracking. All of the pitch shuffles I've seen do not seem to lend themselves to this technique, due to the strips.

except. . .
Posted by Myooligan on 20-Jun-2005 11:30:54 (#13336)

except since nobody who knows how to track aces wants to say much about it, how about an article on how to locate proficient trackers and shmooze the secrets out of them :)

Myoo

While lawyers hash out
Posted by Green Bud on 19-Jun-2005 12:41:45 (#13326)

Great article and picture! Just what I was looking for. I am gonna forward this to my peeps. Keep it up. I'm gonna skin one up in yer honor.

Green Bud
Posted by SammyBoy on 28-Jun-2005 18:16:52 (#13401)

You should post your Vegas trip report (from Green Chip) here. ZG and Phantom007 would especially get a kick out of it.

Tommy Hyland chooses "The Blackjack Zone" for new players
Posted by The Mayor on 17-Jun-2005 13:55:24 (#13318)

A few days ago I quite unexpectedly got a call from Tommy Hyland. He told me that people come up to him all the time asking how to become a card counter. When this happens, he likes to give them a book. He told me that Wong's book (Professional Blackjack) is too advanced (btw, I recommend Wong's book in chapter 42), and that he used to give out another book. But, after reading my book, he decided that it would be his book of choice for new players.

Here is what Tommy Hyland said:

�While there are some great blackjack books out there on the market, I think that The Blackjack Zone is the best book out there for the beginning player who wants to learn how to beat the game.�

"The Blackjack Zone" is available for sale on this site:

http://www.theblackjackzone.com/

Somewhat DISAGREE......
Posted by phantom007 on 18-Jun-2005 00:15:36 (#13320)

The BJZ "is the best book out there" for beginners and semi-pro's" to learn how NOT TO BEAT THEMSELVES", and to "Not be sucked into the Ploppy Table Mania(s)" that often abound(s).

Since "BJZ" was never intended to be a "BEGINNER" book, then certainly it should NOT be the 1st book that a New Student should read. IMHO, more like the 3rd or 4th, or possibly even the 5th or 6th, though still a MANDATORY READ before playing BJ for serious $$$.

Whatever, just my thoughts.

phantom007.

BJZ a good second book
Posted by Garo on 19-Jun-2005 02:18:49 (#13324)

As an inexpirenced occasional player I think the first book needs to put you in the right mindset for the game. Card counting is ALL about the numbers and Wong's book is ALL about the numbers. His book should be the first one read, even if a beginner doesn't get everything in it, it will put them in the right mindset.

I disagree
Posted by Learning to count on 19-Jun-2005 18:06:18 (#13329)

IMHO BJ zone is there to explain what we do and then to clarify it for the begginer. Wongs books are essential but Eliot has simplified the mystery of what we do. BJ Zone is intelligent but available for the curious begginer.

Do you need a book of numbers if you have software?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Jun-2005 22:24:06 (#13330)

Personally I feel a lot better about using the CVData package to generate numbers for the exact game I'm planning on playing and simming it in the manner I'm planning to play. Then I can modify it to suit my needs and watch it run to get a good feel for what is going to happen to me out there. I don't know, were they even dealing 8D games when most of these books were written? I'd rather read a book about experiences; ploppy behavior, casino behavior, psychology and self-contol, cover, stuff you can't simulate on a computer.

Agree with Automatic Monkey...
Posted by Kieran on 20-Jun-2005 05:44:57 (#13333)

I just finished The Blackjack Zone and thought it was an excellent book because of the emphasis on the psychology of the game. I also liked the fact that Jacobson frames the game in a larger, life context.

I would definitely recommend it as a first book, but would also recommend Blackwood's new book "Play Blackjack Like the Pros" I thought it was a great book as well. Having read quite a few books, now, I wish I could have read these two first and then got into all of the others.

Auto ape does hammer the nail home
Posted by Learning to count on 20-Jun-2005 09:02:56 (#13334)

in this day and age it is essential to teach real life experience. Just learning to count is a third of the battle. Heat is at its worst today. A new trained AP will get clobbered out there. I have to count the cards, watch my bets, calculate the TC, flirt with the waitress, carry a conversation with the pit boss, watch the other pit monkeys listen for the phone and finally be aware of suit activity behind me!!!!!!! whew!!!!!

don't forget to add
Posted by Victoria on 20-Jun-2005 12:56:35 (#13338)

Everything Learning to Count said, plus for the new counter, a few things we always do, but loosing traps they often fall into.
Only play good games.
Not following or developing ploppy habits.

The Mayor's book is of great help here.

Victoria

love the myth part-so true
Posted by eyesfor21 on 20-Jun-2005 14:52:29 (#13340)

and we here everyday..plus
your taking the dealers bust card
don't double that a.7
don't sit out we all will lose
your breaking the flow
your cutting the cards wrong

Question about the book "Professional Blackjack"
Posted by Anthony on 19-Jun-2005 10:31:28 (#13325)

Hello all,

Is the book designed for an intermediate player? I've read Blackbelt in Blackjack, and have read it a couple times. After seeing Proffessional Blackjack advertised on a web-site, I've been thinking about buying the book, and then I see it being mentioned in The Mayors post. What do you guys/girls think about the book? Honestly.

Thanks
Anthony

To be honest...
Posted by Learning to count on 19-Jun-2005 17:59:06 (#13328)

if you are using hi-lo or want to learn about halves you must have it. It is the ultimate source for hi-lo. I have been using hi-lo for ten years. there are easier methods but I enjoy hi-lo. Hi-lo is adaptable to every game and all the work has been done for you in this book. I have three copies. One is my work book with tons of notes and entries, one is my lend out book and the last is personally signed by Wong himself. Oh yeah if you are a srious player then you should also be reading black jack attack by Don Schlesinger. If your a begginer then I have to hype the mayors book BJ Zone! It is excellent for a look into the world of a card counter and for the begginer. I can personally say that I witnessed a lot of the experiences that went into BJ Zone!

Also for you AP's out there READ "Wong on Dice!" I just finished it and it is tasty. I am building my practice box as I speak!!!!

Tommy Hyland
Posted by Jay Lee on 09-Aug-2005 18:06:33 (#13737)

Does anybody know how I can join the organization?

Beyond Counting for sale *NM* *LINK*
Posted by Little Bird on 20-Jun-2005 10:32:06 (#13335)

That book has a nice look,I haven't heard much about it tough. *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 20-Jun-2005 14:50:02 (#13339)

Anyone else seen this site? *NM* *LINK*
Posted by Mike on 20-Jun-2005 12:26:34 (#13337)

If you owned the casino what things differently would you do?
Posted by eyesfor21 on 20-Jun-2005 15:05:21 (#13341)

personally I would-
=pay the dealers that deal the fastest the most
=no smoking(still no casinos offering this)
=have signs posting card counting is legal( since most lose money anyways)
=make pitbosses go out and play once a month
so they realize how hard it is-and thus avoid all heat.
=have buy in bonuses
=have lose pay backs
etc..anything else...
just a quick daily ponder..

Topless waitresses
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 20-Jun-2005 15:48:06 (#13342)

<channeling Phantom007> The female dealers will also be topless. That way when she peeks for BJ and her high beams go on you'll know she has a good hand and not to double that 11. </channeling Phantom007>

Also, electric shock on the VP machines that shock you when you make a bad strategy play. Relief tubes on all gaming devices so you don't have to walk away just to urinate. A real smoke-free area. A real gym that any player can use, along with showers.

How would I handle BJ and AP's? Easy, tighten up the table limits. One table is $10-$100, another is $25-$200, another $100-$500. One hand per player only, and a big sign up that says "Card counters welcome". AP's will make a little and I'll make even more because of the ploppies who try to imitate them.

Ace Tracking - my new trick....
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Jun-2005 21:10:53 (#13343)

... is to not always split As when its otherwise appropriate - like with a small bet out and neutral or minus count - I instead hit and keep them in cohesian entering the next shuffle to create a 'super-keycard'. Any comments? zg

I can see how that might help, but loses a bit of efficiency
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Jun-2005 00:12:39 (#13344)

I don't know, if the dealer is dropping so many cards that I can expect those two aces to stick together through the shuffle, I'd probably not be tracking at that table. I'm into dealers with obsessively perfect riffles for this activity. But that's for the shoe game, where single-key gives you only a small advantage at 6D and not playable at 8D, you really need double-key for that. The pitch shuffles I'm familiar with, there are too many strips, and every time the dealer breaks the deck as in a strip or a cut, they break sequences, and if they break the deck after a riffle the probability of breaking a sequence is doubled, after 2 riffles it is quadrupled, etc.

But this is all basic tracking, where you rely on perfection and repeatability. They say there are advanced guys who can exploit sloppy shuffles for a much greater advantage but I'm not up to that yet. I'm guessing you are, though!

You should figure out
Posted by Myooligan on 21-Jun-2005 00:55:46 (#13345)

the proper index for doubling a soft 22 before trying a stunt like that.

How about this alternative?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Jun-2005 09:26:19 (#13346)

When one of the cards in your hand is an ace, and your neighbor's last card is an ace, arrange the cards in your hand so that when picked up your ace and your neighbor's will be together. You should get twice as many connected aces this way without sacrificing the powerful play of splitting aces. This is all assuming the dealer picks up the cards in a predictable manner.

"re-arrange cards in hand"...
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Jun-2005 13:03:33 (#13348)

... yes, I already do that. zg

Just wondering ..
Posted by Sun Runner on 21-Jun-2005 10:13:28 (#13347)

.. no sims here, just rambling.

I'd ask .. 'are you ST'ing and do you do it well?'

If no, I'd split them, no question. To many things can go wrong between here and there. You might spread to two hands (I think Snyder finally came down on NOT spreading to catch the Ace, but that's another matter) and then miss them altogether, the dealer could catch one of them, the count may not be any better than it is now.

ST'ing? Maybe I'd send them on in a negative count.

: the count would have to be really negative. Don't know what 'really negative' means but maybe say, TC -4 or more.

: are you comfortable with the dealer, the shuffle, and your ability in this instance?

: sense the count is now negative (the slug these Aces are in could be very positive) and you are able to isolate and work that slug and it's partner; do you know what partner is gonna look like? You probably should before giving up the two Aces in hand I'd think.

Someone suggested positioning your 'played' Ace such that it matches the guy next to you. I don't get to touch many cards in the games I play and then only SD. If you can ST SD, you have my respect. I assume we are talking about a shoe game here.

It's a good question. Not splitting Aces would be hard to do. Hopefully someone knows the answer. If you get it privately, would you be kind enough to email it to me?

Good luck.

My 2D Ace 'Logic' is...
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Jun-2005 13:17:44 (#13349)

... that there is a 50% likelyhood that I'm seeing the correct key-card, thus STing is unnecessary - I just look for the key-card. zg

Re: My logic
Posted by Sun Runner on 21-Jun-2005 13:31:34 (#13350)

So you have two Aces in your hand now and the count is a little minus; granted they are split Aces.

You send them to the next hand on a 50% chance of catching them on two different boxes with a count that may be ever bit as negative as it is now.

Seems to me a poor risk; but I could be wrong. :)

My only reference to ST'ing was looking for a known opportunity to employ them in the next shuffle when you know the count s/b positive.

By the way, I'm sure there is an index for hitting Ace/Ace; do you know it?

No it's a good risk if you can do it
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Jun-2005 15:52:50 (#13352)

If you know one of your cards is going to be an ace your advantage for that hand is 40-50% depending on rules (D9 makes it worth less, RSA makes it worth more.) So with a 50% probability of accurately predicting the ace, your advantage is 20-25% for that hand. A hell of a lot more valuable than splitting aces with a low bet; even if the count is low it's still more valuable. You can use the same technique to steer an ace away from the dealer or lower your bet if he's going to get one anyway.

Problem is, with most pitch shuffles there are so many strips and cuts the chances of a sequence getting stepped on is so high that your prediction accuracy is less than 50%. One thing that can help is to also keep track of the pair of cards that went into the discards on top of the ace and it's keycard; if that sequence got stepped on by a strip or cut chances are the ace one didn't.

There is an index for splitting aces against dealer ace, I believe it's -5 in Hi-Opt II, S17 game.

My observation of the past few months...
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Jun-2005 16:12:52 (#13353)

... is that the strips and cuts do NOT break the sequence as often as you would think. zg

----------------
"Problem is, with most pitch shuffles there are so many strips and cuts the chances of a sequence getting stepped on is so high that your prediction accuracy is less than 50%. "

off base
Posted by eyesfor21 on 21-Jun-2005 16:45:31 (#13356)

its mostly used on 6 deck and involves a lot of memory
thats all Iam saying..

Comments
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Jun-2005 18:08:02 (#13357)

>Problem is, with most pitch shuffles there are so many strips and cuts the chances of a sequence getting stepped on is so high that your prediction accuracy is less than 50%.

I wrote a sim about this a while back. It showed that the typical riffle-riffle-strip-riffle-cut single-deck shuffle is highly ace-trackable. I won't say any more about the details, but as I recall I sent the info to ZG who has been having a good time. ZG uses *every* legal trick he knows to beat the game. He is a sight to see in action.

Simple Math
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Jun-2005 18:39:06 (#13358)

Simple Math - IF the edge for next hand with 100% Ace-prediction is 50%, then what-if we only have 20% (1 in 5) accuracy (20% x 50% = 10% edge) and we are spread to two hands (20%x50%/2 = 5%)

Therefore my bet-sizing never exceeds my standard max bet and may be smaller in a deep negative zone.

As for the broken sequences, they are not that frequent. The hardest part is remembering the key-card without losing the count. Anyone can observe this to be so in a 2D game. zg

And about 1D Ace(ing)..
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Jun-2005 18:45:08 (#13359)

I usually use AP w/2D games that allow my mid-deck jump to two hands.

I have used it effectively in 1D games as well where I can jump mid-deck to two hands - ElCortez and Western (heads-up only). zg

Ah OK, SD. Now I see
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Jun-2005 20:08:44 (#13361)

For some reason I was assuming DD. But SD eliminates a whole category of problems. and should be a lot better, assuming the same shuffle.

Is that the standard shuffle Downtown? Most of my SD experience has been in Reno and I recall the shuffles being a bit more complicated than that. Two sets of strips?

I mostly do 2D AP *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Jun-2005 20:18:24 (#13362)

Ace Tracking Question
Posted by MJ on 21-Jun-2005 21:26:53 (#13364)

If the 2 aces are dealt to third base, is it possible to track the aces? I think there wouldn't be any key cards available right?

-MJ

If the Ace(s) are the last into the discard tray...
Posted by zengrifter on 22-Jun-2005 13:46:12 (#13368)

...for a particular round, then simply take note of the first card into the discards on the next round. zg

Advantage of an Ace in a 6:5 SD game?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-Jun-2005 00:42:40 (#13375)

I'm getting that in a 6:5 game the percent advantage of having at least one card an ace is about 10 percentage points lower than in the standard 3:2 game. Is anyone else reaching the same conclusion?

sounds right. *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 23-Jun-2005 14:58:52 (#13379)

? for zg
Posted by Myooligan on 25-Jun-2005 14:11:56 (#13387)

I'm looking to start tracking aces on SD games, pretty much along the lines you describe: Looking for an ev increase of 1-5% rather than 51%. What I'm wondering is, do you use CVShuffle? If so, would you say it can pretty much show you all you need to know, as far as prediction probabilities for various shuffles, levels of shuffle sloppiness, etc.?

Don't over-complicate it...
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Jun-2005 15:07:26 (#13399)

... its quite simple - note the 'key-card' then watch for the key-card in the subsequent shuffle, the Ace is coming soon. zg

Thanks zg *NM*
Posted by Myooligan on 29-Jun-2005 18:14:41 (#13410)

Link to LVRJ article on the Grosjean/Russo case
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Jun-2005 15:00:46 (#13351)

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Jun-18-Sat-2005/business/2184716.html

I expected the punitive to be higher *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Jun-2005 16:21:13 (#13354)

strongly agree
Posted by victoria on 21-Jun-2005 16:36:45 (#13355)

In today's world of lawsuites, Griffin got off with less than a slap on the wrist. Sure they have probably a ton of legal fees but they deserved a damaging or lethal blow.
My hope would be that this case will lead to others and then perhaps when assesing damages a jury will realize that this is a pattern of behavior and give Griffin what they deserve.
Victoria

Your thoughts...
Posted by VC on 26-Jun-2005 03:00:28 (#13388)

I value your opinion has you have replied to me before...

Basically this decision says you can't Back Room people anymore for advantage play, etc...

My issue is the front room is wide open. At the hint of AV play you are going to get tossed, right?

Seems like the paranoia will be even greater, right?

Not sure you ever could
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Jun-2005 11:00:12 (#13389)

I don't believe casino security ever could backroom people just for advantage play. It's for suspicion of cheating, and only for the purpose of detaining you for police. So if they try to backroom you, and you sit in your chair and say "If you think I've done something illegal, call the police, I'll wait right here for them" there's no reason for them to touch you. It appears any backrooming of AP's they've done has been something they've gotten away with, which is slightly different than something that is allowed.

Mad ness sure madness
Posted by Learning to count on 21-Jun-2005 19:32:55 (#13360)

During the trial Beverly cried poor mouth. In fact she clammed up during trial about her net wealth. Ther real punitive damage was in the deal between Caesars and Russo/Grossjean. The only shame in this whole trial was the fact that the laws and beliefs that are the foundation to these incidents are still intact. It was a shame that the corruption that exists between the triangle of conspiracy between Griffin, the casinos and the dumb/corrupt NGC is still going to conduct business as usual. At least the public is able to recognize truth from lies.

Caesars Settlement
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Jun-2005 20:24:45 (#13363)

Radar_O'Reilly comments -
James and Mike have agreed to a settlement with Caesars. The jury's verdict that Caesars was guilty of false imprisonment and defamation of character with malice will stand. The jury awarded punitive damages against Caesars and a settlement of these damages satisfactory to all parties has been reached. The amount of the settlement cannot be publicly disclosed. Part of the settlement is that neither Caesars nor James and Mike will appeal the verdict or settlement amounts.

Bankroll Theory Question
Posted by MJ on 21-Jun-2005 21:50:53 (#13365)

If one's goal is to grow their bankroll at a moderate pace(.5 kelley), is it better to split the bankroll into SEVERAL SMALLER bankrolls and play each one aggressively(meaning full kelley and it either doubles or goes bust, in which case he simply moves on to the next one) or is it better to just base your unit size on the ONE ENTIRE bankroll?

As an example, let us assume one has a bankroll equal to $50K. The individual can lose every last penny and it would not effect his lifestyle in the least bit. Even though he can afford to lose, the counter obviously wants to win some $$$.
Rather then play off one bank of $50K, is there ANY advantage for him to divide his BR into 5 bankrolls of $10K and play full kelley on each individual one?

Thanks for any insight,

-MJ

one answer
Posted by stainless steel rat on 22-Jun-2005 10:25:29 (#13366)

"kelly" is defined based on a risk of ruin for a bankroll. If you divide your BR into "chunks" and then kelly bet each chunk, the first effect is that your bet size will shrink by 1/N where N is the number of chunks. This means your win rate will also shrink by 1/N, and your risk of ruin will go to something very low as well.

If you want to bet 1/2 kelly, that's a safe approach. I've heard pros mention 1/4 kelly even, but that is with a huge BR where full kelly might blow the table max in most places.

Personally, if I were worried about 1/2 kelly ROR, rather than dividing my BR into chunks and 1/2 Kelly betting a single chunk, I would just drop to 1/4 Kelly on the whole BR.

Others might disagree of course...

Whether you sub-divide or keep it in one big BR, your ROR will _never_ reach 0.00 anyway, you can always hit one of those ugly streaks...

Kelly
Posted by kbp on 22-Jun-2005 13:57:43 (#13369)

Perhaps I misunderstand the concept, but I believe Kelly proportional betting is based on maximizing the growth of a bankroll by betting a portion of your bankroll in proportion to your advantage. Betting in this manner, without resizing, HAS a risk of ruin, but I don�t think Kelly is DEFINED based on a ROR. After all, a strict Kelly wager isn�t based on what your starting bank was, only what your current bank (and advantage) is.

Kelly
Posted by stainless steel rat on 22-Jun-2005 15:07:34 (#13370)

Has to include ROR. For example, a full Kelly bet is (if I recall correctly, my BJ books are 25 miles from where I am right now) based on a 13.5% ROR. And yes, technically you bet advantage * .76 * bankroll, where advantage is expressed as a decimal percentage (.015 for 1.5% advantage). And yes, you technically resize your bet each hand. But in reality, that's undoable, as is exact Kelly betting, because you are not going to bet $27.52 on a hand. :) I believe most "kelly bettors" compute the kelley bet per TC, then round to multiples of $5 or whatever chip size they are betting, and stick with that through thick or thin until the bankroll increases or decreases significantly enough to justify re-calculating and re-memorizing the new betting ramp.

I will add that I don't do this, because I don't have a bankroll in those terms. I just go play for a particular stakes level depending on where and when and don't give much thought to going bust as I can just return again next week... I'm just a simple $5-$40 or $25-$100 DD player myself...

Kelly and ROR
Posted by phinitum on 22-Jun-2005 21:43:25 (#13374)

The 13.5% ROR with full Kelly is based on the assumption of no resizing, in other words of starting with bets sized based on Kelly then ignoring everything that happens and just betting a fixed schedule.

One of the conveniences of fractional Kelly is that it isn't such a pressing need to do frequent resizing.

Another nice feature is that fractional Kelly with resizing shows a reduction in bankroll growth much less than the reduction in risk. 50% Kelly grows the bankroll at about 76% the rate that 100% Kelly does (assuming constant resizing).

Not Kelly
Posted by kbp on 23-Jun-2005 10:55:37 (#13376)

�Kelly....Has to include ROR. For example, a full Kelly bet is (if I recall correctly, my BJ books are 25 miles from where I am right now) based on a 13.5% ROR.�

No, the opposite is true. Kelly has a theoretical ROR of zero and is BASED ON maximizing bankroll growth.

What you�re talking about is setting a betting ramp using the Kelly Criterion for a particular bank and NEVER resizing. This IS NOT Kelly betting. It�s fixed betting and carries a theoretical ROR (13.5%?) if you NEVER EVER resize. Throw in the occasional resizing you mention, when a bankroll increases or decreases significantly, and 13.5% is no longer the ROR.

Of course, resizing after every hand isn�t practical, but it does it have to be overly complicated? Can�t a solo player on his own bank recognize he�s lost say 50 percent of his original bank and just divide his original betting ramp by two? Or say with a 20 percent loss doesn�t a 50 dollar unit just resize to a 40 dollar unit.

won't argue
Posted by stainless steel rat on 23-Jun-2005 13:45:03 (#13378)

since as I said, I'm not a "Kelly expert".

But re-sizing can be a problem. If you play (as I do frequently) a DD game spreading 5-40, re-sizing is not going to happen. I can't actually bet less than $5 easily, without drawing a _lot_ of attention. And by the time you re-size down to $.50, you are stuck, haven't seen a casino that accepted pennies at a BJ table yet. :)

I always compute my bet ramp using CVCX. I tell it "unit = $5", "spread=1-8" and see what it says the optimal betting ramp is. If it seems "queer" (and it often does as it will come up with some odd bet ramps for some games) then I adjust it to something I can deal with. My favorite S17 DD game goes $5, 10, 20, 40 for TC=0, 1, 2, >= 3. I can mentally do that easy enough. :)

Could be right
Posted by MJ on 22-Jun-2005 17:10:52 (#13372)

Hey SSR thanks for responding. I've seen your posts(on various boards) over the last few months and find them to be helpful.

"Personally, if I were worried about 1/2 kelly ROR, rather than dividing my BR into chunks and 1/2 Kelly betting a single chunk, I would just drop to 1/4 Kelly on the whole BR".

Well the idea is to FULL kelly bet with a single chunk of the BR at a time to maximize the EV. So you would start with 10K, full kelly bet with it and see what happens. If you lost it then you would take the next segment and full kelly bet with that...and so on and so forth.

I'm not sure if the idea would be any better then just being extra conservative and playing off the full BR.

-MJ

maybe
Posted by stainless steel rat on 22-Jun-2005 18:32:46 (#13373)

I worded that too poorly.

Say you have $50K and you decide to bet full-kelly, which will put your ROR in the 13% range. And will have you betting nearly $400 at a 1% advantage (.01 * .76 * 50000 if my math is close).

Now divide that bank into 5 chunks. You now will be betting about 75 bucks at a 1% advantage. With a 13% ROR on the 10K bank. But note that your overall ROR is now roughly .13 ^ 5 which is a very small number. And notice that if your counting system and game typically has a (say) 2 big bet win per hour, then with the former system, you are winning $800 per hour, with the latter, you are winning $150 per hour. Huge difference. And a very non-aggressive betting plan...

I'm not a pro, but I'd suspect that a pro is not willing to play to a 13.5% ROR, which means he is going to be doing some sort of fractional Kelly betting. I've seen teams mention 1/4 and 1/8 Kelly betting for example, but as I mentioned that is on a really huge bankroll. But the ROR is way down there as well, which is their aim as if a pro goes bust, he _really_ goes bust and has become broke.

Also, whether you play 1/4 kelly on your full bankroll, or full kelly on four separate bankrolls seems to make little difference in anything. Only when you start varying your bet less does things take a turn for the worse. I'm hardly a Kelly expert (Mayor is certainly better here) but the idea of 1/4 kelly is simply to compute a full kelly bet, then use 1/4 of it as the bet amount, which drives the ROR down into the mud, but which also reduces your hourly win rate by 1/4 as well.

The real question...
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Jun-2005 10:30:43 (#13367)

The real question is -- what ROR do you feel comfortable with for your 50k bankroll? After you know that number, you can proceed.

Here is a number (I'm just going to approximate on this one). If you split your 50k into 5 10k bankrolls, and play full kelly on a 10k BR, then your ROR (for the full 50k) is approximately .004% (1 in 25,000 chance of losing the 50k). You could probabaly be a bit more agressive and feel comfortable.

Thanks Professor
Posted by MJ on 22-Jun-2005 16:59:22 (#13371)

I understand what you did. You took .135 ^ 5 = .00004484 = .004%. You computed the probability that each fraction of the bankroll would be lost betting at full
kelley.

So, assuming I wanted to maintain the level of risk above, I can just size my unit based upon .2 Kelley for the size of my ENTIRE bankroll and your saying it would be the same thing as playing each chunk of my BR at .2 kelley?

I guess I feel comfortable with no more then 1/2 kelley.

By the way, once a player has determined kelley how would they figure out how many
units they should play with?

-MJ

BJRM should give you all the info you need. *NM*
Posted by toddler on 23-Jun-2005 12:03:42 (#13377)

Re: Kelly
Posted by jblaze on 23-Jun-2005 19:01:07 (#13380)

raise your ror to the 3/2 power, ie (ROR)^1.5 to get your ROR if you resize your bets once when half your bankroll is completed. therefore, a 10% ROR with no resizing becomes ~3% ROR if you resize at .5*BR.

New bill would allow NV casinos to charge admission...
Posted by zengrifter on 23-Jun-2005 19:24:29 (#13381)

... now posted at ZenZone. zg

In Singapore
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2005 23:55:11 (#13382)

Latest news on Singapore's (new) casinos -- $100 admission.

Not NEW News in Missouri......
Posted by phantom007 on 24-Jun-2005 22:08:34 (#13384)

Mo. stores have been allowed to charge "Boarding Fee" m/l since their inception. Some waive it (Harrah's KC), or more likely pay it themselves.

Others (Aztar) have collected it!

To make matters worse, THERE IS NO FREE BOOZE! You pay to board, pay to drink, and then, due to State Law, they RIP IT FROM YOUR COLD DEAD HAND at 1:30am SHARP! Then no more ETOH until the following AM!

Phantom007.

And a caning if you are caught AP-ing (lol) *NM*
Posted by Felix Rue_de_Guerre on 27-Jun-2005 15:13:04 (#13393)

Gaming Wire comments on Griffin's loss to Grosjean
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Jun-2005 17:53:45 (#13394)

Gaming Wire's Rod Smith:

"The recent defamation trial of Griffin Investigations was a shocker for industry insiders who thought the outside detective agency kept casinos clean. The Griffin Gold Book of cheats is a five-volume list of names and mug shots that can be accessed online. Griffin also sells a facial recognition program and alerts casinos when doubtful characters are on the move. But catch this: The firm only has four employees and grosses $600,000 a year. The trial left some wondering if Griffin was just a paper tiger."

Gaming Wire Editor Rod Smith can be reached by e-mail at rodneysmith1@cox.net

Defamed!!!! F%ck griffin
Posted by Learning to count on 27-Jun-2005 19:03:03 (#13396)

Four weasel investigators who are just wanna be dick traceys. From what I saw at the trial they have to lie in order to further the Mythology of the card counter who took vegas. They could not get any business without the lies. They have been jumping on the hype that Uston started and the MIT brats are bragging about.

Talk about greed. I overheard Recently divorced Bev Griffin telling two nurds that she was in the Market for a real man! A guy with splash, pizzaz, class, and cold hard cash to keep her in Diamonds and Caviar. She is a real dish. Hey ZG maybe you should hook up with the old hag! Nah I wouldnt do that to any one.

a real sweet deal
Posted by Victoria on 28-Jun-2005 07:19:05 (#13398)

My understanding is that the main, non thrust of Griffin's work is simply taking the information supplied to them by those who pay them (the casinos), then putting it all together and giving it back to the casinos. Geeze, 600K for something one person probably can do in a few hours a day.
I guess the investigators are needed only to prove to their clients that they have investigators. Go out to a casino and tag along with survielance or security, look at their book and say something brilliant like "yup, that's the guy." Another purpose of investigators would be to backing up a casino lie, by a non casino person, to the gaming or law enforcement folks.

well I know
Posted by Learning to count on 28-Jun-2005 19:32:38 (#13403)

a dozen of full time AP's who know what the griffin nerds can do. Griffin claims the demise of the MIT group as their own work. they did a lot of spying on the boys plus use of bullying to send the message home! F#ck griffin!

Rod Smith is our friend
Posted by Al Rogers on 28-Jun-2005 15:28:44 (#13400)

Gaming Wire Editor Rod Smith can be reached by e-mail at rodneysmith1@cox.net

Rod Smith usually writes well-balanced, fair articles. He has often written about casino abuse of skilled players. He knows the difference between an honest, legal advantage player and a cheat. I suspect that this unfortunate paragraph was the result of editing that was beyond Mr. Smith's control.

If you choose to email him, please be polite and be sure to thank him for his many fine articles in the past. It is entirely possible that he submitted this article and never saw the finished product before it was too late.

What was wrong with it... a typo? *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Jun-2005 18:36:57 (#13402)

"Cheats"
Posted by Al Rogers on 29-Jun-2005 11:21:03 (#13405)

The Griffin Gold Book of cheats is a five-volume list of names and mug shots that can be accessed online.

I thought the failure to make a distinction between cheats and legal skilled players may be offensive to some, and that you were calling for emails to Mr Smith protesting this obvious oversight.

Al is right he is a honest journalist! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 29-Jun-2005 12:32:56 (#13406)

We are cheats
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 29-Jun-2005 13:53:38 (#13407)

But we don't cheat at blackjack. We cheat the system which exists to take as much money as possible from casino patrons through deception and exploitation.

However cheating in a casino is a serious crime in Nevada and that word should never be used to identify individual advantage players. False accusation of a felony is always a tort.

No, actually I didn't ...
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Jun-2005 14:42:02 (#13408)

...pick up on that... just his poke at Griffin/paper-tiger. zg

Anyone catch the LVA Question-of-the-Day? *LINK*
Posted by Sonny on 28-Jun-2005 19:42:51 (#13404)

One of last week's QODs:

"I read about a church in Las Vegas that sells its own chips in the gift shop. The chips are adorned with portraits of Jesus (no, not Chris Ferguson), Moses, etc. Is there anything to this, and if so where is the church so I can get them? I figure it can't hurt to have some divine intervention going for you at the poker table."

Anyone have any info? That sounds like a collectors item right there!

-Sonny-

The domain name "www.cardcounter.com" is for sale
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Jun-2005 15:26:39 (#13409)

Greetings,

In discussion with the management of this site, we decided to offer the site's domain name for sale. We decided to ask a premium price, and to see if there is any interest.

So, if you've every thought of opening a blackjack web site, and missed out on all those great domain names, here is your chance:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5785909579&ssPageName=ADME:B:LC:US:1

--Mayor

It doesn't seem right, EJ!
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Jun-2005 18:31:34 (#13411)

Open bid to the gen-pub?

So some assh*le company can promote online gaming and/or sucker books?

And you just go straight to eBay "after discussion with mgmt?

Didn't this site start out as a labor-of-love?

So what if its not making enough money, couldn't "mgmt" promote it a little better?

I'm disappointed. zg

Reply
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Jun-2005 19:28:16 (#13412)

>I'm disappointed. zg

I serious doubt it will be purchased for the price requested. But...

After management reminded me I could switch over all the services of this site to the other domain I run (www.theblackjackzone.com) it seemed like we might as well ask for what we wanted and see if there were any takers.

Oh, I get it.... *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Jun-2005 20:33:44 (#13415)

...I was momentarily struck by the same childhood abandonment issues that I worked thru when I did John Bradshaw's 'Inner Child' workshops. zg

Inner Gambler
Posted by Alexander Mundy on 30-Jun-2005 13:13:30 (#13417)

Many years ago, at the Reno Hilton, I saw Bradshaw walking away from a betting window at the racebook and said, "I didn't know the inner child liked to bet on horses." He smiled and said "The inner child loves to bet on horses." He was a very nice and friendly gentleman, but the "inner child" is the kind of nonsense that belongs in the Zen Zone. BTW zg, when I was in LV a month or so ago, me and T-H stopped by your crib to see if you wanted to come out to play. I wanted to see the legend in action. Maybe next time.

I moved about 6 weeks ago...
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Jun-2005 14:12:52 (#13418)

... but it was about that same time that I left a post at BJRN for TH to email me... but he didn't. Next time for sure! griftzen@yahoo.com zg

They're the cowboys.
Posted by anon on 02-Jul-2005 08:10:21 (#13426)

We're only the cows.

Yep the name is up for sale! ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by management on 29-Jun-2005 19:59:02 (#13413)

We here at card counter feel we would like to see if we could get the asking price. Everyone tells us the site is worth a million so we wanna see if the "name" is worth 1% of a million. The content is not for sale well maybe for a million it would be. Dont worry ZG we still value our members and we enjoy your mischief as well! As the Mayor said we dont see any one taking it seriously.

Card Counter.Com is worth it.
Posted by Learning to count on 29-Jun-2005 20:03:52 (#13414)

If I win a million I would buy it! Oh well back to the tables!

Sell your soul but keep the site. *NM*
Posted by North Wind on 01-Jul-2005 10:14:53 (#13419)

If there was a way for this site to bring in a lot of revenue, would you keep it?
Posted by Anthony on 02-Jul-2005 12:54:53 (#13427)

CC Managment,

Would you keep the site if there was a way to increase it's revenue?

Maybe you misunderstand...
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Jul-2005 13:45:34 (#13429)

The site will remain, but the name *may* change. If "www.cardcounter.com" sells, then this site will be reborn as "www.theblackjackzone.com".

On the other hand, we always like money. So, what's your idea?

--mayor

theblackjackzone.com is better
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-Jul-2005 00:29:46 (#13432)

Mostly because it will attract more novices who are familiar with blackjack but not with the term "card counter". (Assuming it won't drive you crazy, more novices will mean more people talking about progressions and gambling superstitions.) However this will likely lead to more revenue. Secondarily, theblackjackzone is more accurate because other forms of AP are handled here.

share your idea!! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 02-Jul-2005 13:46:08 (#13430)

Troll alert!!!!! Something smells here???? *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 02-Jul-2005 20:54:23 (#13431)

Incredible! Get a new instant BJ BR NOW!
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Jun-2005 21:58:49 (#13416)

posted at the Zen Zone! zg

I evolve!
Posted by Theef on 01-Jul-2005 14:01:25 (#13421)

Getting backed off for the first time three years ago felt like a proud accomplishment for me. But I recently made an even bigger breakthrough - I noticed a consistently exposed hole card for the very first time on a Vegas trip. Finally, a taste of this advanced AP you guys are always hinting at! I started flat-betting two, then three, then four of my usual units, and did my best to guesstimate a hole card strategy. 9 vs. 16? Easy double (I think). 12 vs. 12? Not so easy to figure out in three seconds. Doesn't Wong's PBJ have this info? Too bad I didn't bring that book on this trip. I knew better than to start hitting 18s and such, although it really rubbed me the wrong way to stand when I knew perfectly well I was losing 100% of my bet 100% of the time by doing so. That's not the kind of decision any gambler is accustomed to making. Anyway, I punished this dealer for a hefty sum before he or she was relieved. Then I returned a few times throughout my trip, earning the lion's share of my trip profits from this one opportunity.

There's an extremely short list of people whom I kinda know enough to share this dealer's identity with, but I'd be happy to do so. bj.theef@gmail.com

Please don't share!
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Jul-2005 14:40:55 (#13423)

Thanks for your statement that you would share with a select list, but my experience is that this dealer will last *only* until someone with big money comes in, and then the game will be burnt out.

Save it for yourself and do everything in your power to get back to the game asap and keep playing it. Share it only with someone who wants to co-bank with you.

--Mayor

Mayor the party-pooper! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 01-Jul-2005 14:50:48 (#13424)

Awww. Then let me modify this thread
Posted by Theef on 03-Jul-2005 19:11:01 (#13433)

I've read those countless posts saying "you won't find such information on a public forum." Now it appears I might not find such information privately either. Oh well. Now that I've gotten a taste, I want more. Maybe *these* questions are okay to be answered?

Are flashers more common at break-in and low-limit joints? How much more common?
Is it worthwhile to devote large segments of my trip to patrolling for flashers; i.e. could that be more profitable than counting a 2D game?
Is hole card play feasible at shoe games? How about carnival games with those automatic slug-spewers? (You don't have to say which games.) My impression is that weak dealers of those games would be too rare to be worth scouting for; is this right or wrong?
What is my advantage roughly, and thus what fraction of my bankroll should I bet, if I can see the hole card 80% of the time in a pitch game?

Are hole card players really so solitary? I had a fantasy about earning rudimentary credit with some kind of tip-trading ring. Or at least getting some "I'm pretty sure this Theef guy isn't a casino spy" points with the right kind of folks.

Probably saying more than I should...
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Jul-2005 21:10:18 (#13435)

> Maybe *these* questions are okay to be answered?

Maybe...

>Are flashers more common at break-in and low-limit joints?

Flashers are ubiquitous. You just have to open your eyes.

>Is it worthwhile to devote large segments of my trip to patrolling for flashers; i.e. could that be more profitable than counting a 2D game?

Yes. Searching for great games should be the major thing you do. Playing blackjack using card counting is what you do when you are too tired to scout.

>Is hole card play feasible at shoe games?

I've have not heard of it being done recently (legally, that is).

>What is my advantage roughly, and thus what fraction of my bankroll should I bet, if I can see the hole card 80% of the time in a pitch game?

If you get perfect information 80% of the time, and you are willing to play perfect hole card strategy, you will get about a 10% advantage in this situation. Your entire bankroll should back you if you find such a game. Borrow money from friends too.

>Are hole card players really so solitary?

Not in my experience. Team play is very common.

>I had a fantasy about earning rudimentary credit with some kind of tip-trading ring.

Such groups exist already. The best way to get into one is to do your own homework and start such a group yourself.

>Or at least getting some "I'm pretty sure this Theef guy isn't a casino spy" points with the right kind of folks.

Your questions show a very careful and considered view of casinos. Whether you are a spy or not doesn't matter. Your eyes are clearly open.

--Mayor

You may scout for years
Posted by Tom on 04-Jul-2005 00:45:34 (#13438)

and see a couple of flashers,in the meantime I'll be busy card counting everyday and deal with the flashes as they come. I still dream of the day I only have to scout for a few hours to find holecards. The fact is, it's a very,very,very,rare occurence, as you should probably already know. If you dont believe me, dedicate your trips scouting and dont be surprised if you never play.

Holecarding shoes
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 04-Jul-2005 06:16:38 (#13439)

My experience with shoes is that they are most vulnerable to holecarding when checking for blackjack, and this is dependent on the method they use to check. There are electronic scanners, a variety of optical devices and just bending up the corner of the card to look at it (This method is rare, but look up Clarke Cant's reference to "bangers" to go along with this subject.) You'll only get this opportunity when the dealer has an ace or 10 so that makes it less valuable, but if you are holecarding at a shoe game with late surrender a peek at the hole card is much more valuable because you can surrender a lot of stiffs that way and you'll just look like a ploppy who misuses surrender.

I agree with Tom in that you can't go out to play expecting to find a flasher. When I visit a new store I look at shuffles, procedures, variations in pen that can be exploited and if I see a flasher that's great, but it is indeed rare. But some people are a lot better at picking it up than others.

notes
Posted by victoria on 04-Jul-2005 12:07:59 (#13440)

As said before, spending your time searching for just flashers will often mean just spending all your time searching and not playing. Over the last few years I have found several and I also have the advantage of sharing information with one other person who has played longer than I. Keep notes of the names, casino and description of the flasher. Remember their shift but shifts change and dealers move often from casino to casino and also just leave the area. Eventually you will have a small list and at least starting places for a trip to a place like Vegas.
I keep my notes in code just in case it falls into the wrong hands. When it was smaller I committed it to memory before a trip.
Finally, if a dealer you were looking for is not present, I do not think asking about him/her to another dealer is a problem. You might learn they are now on another shift or casino.
Victoria

Website info
Posted by Litigator on 13-Jul-2005 10:40:31 (#13509)

I disagree with virtually everything that has been said regarding holecarding here. These people who are giving you advice are not holecarding specialists. Take everything you read on the Internet with a grain of salt and be prepared to learn on your own as you go, and from any specialists you might meet.

What do you disagree with and what
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Jul-2005 11:24:06 (#13510)

can you add or enlighten us with?

The Demise of Barrick
Posted by Learning to count on 02-Jul-2005 13:20:48 (#13428)

News is that Barrick gaming is fading fast. Too bad they had a great idea. Old fashioned gaming but with a little sweat. I enjoyed taking thier money. : (
The new company sounds like a change for the worst. I like downtown and the old sleezy hotels. The Plaza rooms were scairy but the LVC was basic and comfortable. Empty tables in the AM and sometimes in the afternoon. The food was edible. How about that 9lb Burger at the LVC Quarterdeck. Mainstreet has a great buffet. The nugget has edible food too. Stay away from those giant cheap hotdogs down there...yech! Oh yeah how about that Oxtail soup at the CAL! I went to see the Wynn...boring...just like the Bellagio, TI, Mirage. I love Vegas!

Amazon has a great deal on The Blackjack Zone
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Jul-2005 21:02:21 (#13434)

The Blackjack Zone is only $13.57 at www.amazon.com (with free shipping on orders over $25) -- if you've been waiting, the deal is pretty good right now.

--Mayor

Mayor, The Blackjack Zone...
Posted by Greasy John on 06-Jul-2005 16:56:54 (#13448)

was on the shelf last month when I visited the Gambler's Book Store in L.V. And I met Howard. It was great to stop into this hallowed establishment. I noticed the cover of your book stated "...autographed...". Gee, I loooked at two books and the signatures WERE different. I went into the book store mainly to see if the charts in Blackjack Diaries were taken fom Hi-Opt 1, as I had thought. They were. It is always nice to break up the CC with a little side trip. Been to Red Rock Canyon. Been to the Mormon Fort. Seen the Moulin Rogue. Why haven't they developed the site of the original El Rancho, I wonder?

Hmmm....
Posted by Mayor on 06-Jul-2005 18:02:01 (#13451)

> I noticed the cover of your book stated "...autographed...". Gee, I loooked at two books and the signatures WERE different.

I stopped by there and autographed every book they bought. I am sure my signature changed gradually as I plowed through 40 books. I got lazier with time. But thanks for thinking of me (not sure what you thought, though).

Re: Hummm...
Posted by Greasy John on 07-Jul-2005 12:25:47 (#13469)

All I meant was, that when I noticed your book cover mentioned that they were autographed copies, it prompted me to look and see; and after seeing your signature my curiosity compelled me to look at another copy to see if the signature was different, or just a facsimile. And of course, each signature was an original. I believe John Scarne signed his "Complete Book of Gambling." But I'd bet that was a facsmile signature.

Greasy John

www.blackjackzone.com....
Posted by zengrifter on 04-Jul-2005 10:50:19 (#13441)

EJ, make sure you obtain that domain as well before someone else does. BJZ is not as good a domain as CC.com, IMHO. zg

Try this toolbar...
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Jul-2005 10:36:50 (#13442)

http://www.qfit.com/blackjack-toolbar.htm

"Beyond Counting" for sale on ebay
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Jul-2005 10:52:27 (#13443)

This book should never have been written. Once written, all copies should have been destroyed. Once the copies got out, I should have bought them all. OK, none of that came to pass. But what has come to pass is that a single copy is for sale on ebay. I suggest you buy it. There is not a book that is even a close second as far as the greatest advantage play books of all time.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6966478845&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

BC is of little use by most who possess it. *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 06-Jul-2005 12:58:10 (#13444)

A bit more accurate, perhaps.
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Jul-2005 13:29:08 (#13446)

I imagine if you put your comment in the first person it is more accurate: you do not use it much, you know people who own it who don't use it much. That is not the world I live in. I use it all the time. Many people I know use it all the time.

reprint soon
Posted by creatureman on 06-Jul-2005 14:34:52 (#13447)

Is there a reprint on the horizon???? Is that the bidding isn't $400+. Sounds like he wants to push his copy before the reprint IMOH

I said most people....
Posted by zengrifter on 06-Jul-2005 20:03:46 (#13455)

... like say if the 250 or so people who lurk this site all had a copy, most would derive little use from BC. zg

I guess your reasoning being that...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jul-2005 02:13:31 (#13459)

...the people here fall into one of two categories, either already proficient in those or equivalent AP techniques, or not yet advanced enough to effectively apply them?

$500 bucks is absurd for this book.
Posted by Tom on 06-Jul-2005 20:21:57 (#13456)

Great book,yada,yada...$500?..nada,nada. I would suggest for anyone who has a desire to own BC is wait untill the new book is published,besides many conditions in the old book have little value for todays conditions. No wonder the current bid is only $10. I agree with Zen.

$500 is absurd for any book
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 07-Jul-2005 06:38:25 (#13461)

and this is my auction:) The book has gone for $550 in past eBay auctions. It won't this time because I put a limit on the price. As I posted on AP.com, It's a good book. But, IMHO, if a book goes for over $500 it had better have Gutenberg's fingerprints on it.

too practical
Posted by Victoria on 07-Jul-2005 14:05:43 (#13473)

$500 may be too much to pay for a book if your intention is just to use the information in it. Today, many a rare book is available in a downloadable format for a small charge.

Practicality and collecting do not always go together. I would image a $550 buyer (someone else had to bid $500 or more probably for the winner to pay $550) is also a collector. A woman (coin dealer) I know, recently paid 1.3 million for a nickel. Five made of which 3 are in places like the Smithsonian. But a non dealer or collector might say, "it is just a nickel". It is worth whatever the high buyer wants to pay for it.

Books: In the past 6 months, I sold a parody of H.G. Wells, War of the Worlds, a soft cover book from 1898, written by Graves and Lucas, called War of the Wenuses, for $1,175. Purchased from a used book store in California while I was in college for $50

I also sold a bound, near complete volume of Harpers Weekly from 1873 for $850. This was purchased at a non book auction for $20 two years ago.

It is in my way of thinking, just another form of advantage play in life.

Victoria

UNLV Copy
Posted by Hal Jordan on 07-Jul-2005 13:36:27 (#13472)

A while back I felt a need to see this sacred tome with my own eyes. UNLV has a copy in their "special collection" and you can read and photocopy all that you need. It was great because I got my fix and it only cost a couple of bucks.

$500 is absurd
Posted by Johnny Miller on 18-Jul-2005 00:30:23 (#13545)

$500 is a bargain if you utilize the info in this book.Yes some of the plays don`t exist any more,but some of them are as plentiful as ever.

I'll sell my copy for $200, and PS-...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Jul-2005 16:56:51 (#13476)

... This is a GREAT book! It covers advantage play at Baccarrat, Wheel of Fortune, BJ Holecarding, Carribean Stud, you name, you can beat it! Who wants it? zg

I'm Interested
Posted by Praying Mantis on 15-Jul-2005 01:58:13 (#13529)

Grif,

Email me at prayinmantis@earthlink.net so we can work out arrangements.

Assuming you still have it and want to part with it.

Thanks,

Is being thrown out the same as being trespassed?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Jul-2005 17:16:18 (#13449)

Recently I was ejected bodily from a casino, for no reason (i.e., for card counting, not any illegal act) but they never told me I was unwelcome to come back or read the trespass act, just that I had to leave. So does that mean I can go back?

It was kind of a funny ejection- I was winning at a table full of high-rolling Asians and being my max bet was smaller than any of their bets it apparently gave me immunity. The table was full, and a new table opened up behind me so when the count went bad I got up to move, and as soon as I stood up and turned around security and the PC swarmed me and ejected me from the building. What a bunch of jerks, they could have just tapped me out of the game, no reason to do all that.

Did they touch you?
Posted by Mayor on 06-Jul-2005 17:31:58 (#13450)

If they put there hands on you, I would recommend you file a police report for "Battery" immediately. There needs to be a record of this for the time someone really needs it.

And no, this is not a trespassing. You can go back any time.

No it wasn't violent
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jul-2005 02:10:35 (#13458)

Upon looking it up I guess "bodily" was not quite accurate in the sense in which the word is commonly used, they didn't grab me, just surrounded me, made me walk to the cashiers cage to cash out then out the door.(Note to bfbagain, this was in MS not an Indian place.) Still, disturbing, as the punishment did not fit the crime. As I was being walked I told them I wasn't planning to fight or resist so there was no need for any of this but they continued. If they roughed me up, my plan would be to take a dive and request an ambulance, and let the lawyers agree on a dollar amount.

Glad to know I wasn't trespassed. That's silly, they'd be better off just backing me off and trespassing me, rather than risking a violent incident with the way they handled it and still allowing me to legally come back in the future. Must have been the work of some inexperienced game protection people.

As you know, words are important
Posted by bfbagain on 07-Jul-2005 09:32:17 (#13463)

Although, if you hadn't used the word "bodily", I might not have responded. :-)

The threat and intimidation factor is just as disconcerting, and IMO, is almost as bad as physical contact, in that it is public, and gives the impression that you were doing something wrong, e.g., a casino discovered a cheater and was throwing them out. And, for those reading, is precisely what they are trying to convey, as well as tossing an "undesirable."

I'm glad to hear it wasn't your home turf, as they have become much more frisky.

As to trespassing, it is a bit odd, seeing how they "dealt" with you, that they didn't tell you that you couldn't play BJ, but could play other games (a normal backoff), yet, did everything in how a normal trespassing is done, minus reading the trespass act.

I don't recall what the MS law is in this regard, as I have only received a normal backoff in MS. Maybe someone who plays often there can clarify this.

I would be cautious in playing at other "linked" properties for the time being. I can assure you, sadly, that if it was at a property that is also in LV, it will hurt in LV as well. CZE (now Harrahs) immediately comes to mind, but hey, I'm a forgetful type person. :-)

Was this at a DD game?

cheers
bfb

Yes, DD
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jul-2005 12:22:48 (#13468)

There was no question as to the message they were trying to convey! It's just odd that they didn't actually say it, no trespass act.

My home turf, CT, I haven't noticed any heat. Pen has gotten worse at one of the stores but that has always been very cyclical, ranging from 1 to 2 decks. But something very good has happened at the other one.

policy?
Posted by Victoria on 07-Jul-2005 13:24:13 (#13471)

In my experience and those of relatives and others who count.

Caesar's properties tended to back you off of blackjack with a classy approach
Harrah's properties tended to use the instant, classless 86 approach.

As they meld together under the Harrah's banner, I would think the classless approach will take over.

Victoria

Sounds like they had enough
Posted by bfbagain on 06-Jul-2005 18:10:49 (#13452)

If it was where I think it may have been, you have been aware for some time that they have been very proactive in this regard.

Sorry to hear about this. Surveillance is mostly behind their action, as they have been throwing counters out left and right.

I'd wait at least 6 months, change your appearance, get a new teepee card, and try it again.

cheers
bfb

How do you know it's a Teepee card? *NM*
Posted by Anthony on 06-Jul-2005 18:18:23 (#13453)

whoops...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 10-Jul-2005 16:48:38 (#13498)

I play DD on the MS coast regularly. Any "hint" as to where this might be? One game I play is at what might be considered the "classiest" casino on the coast, the other good DD/SD stuff is over in Gulfport. I've not been tossed nor bugged, but advance warning would be nice. :)

Check your Hotmail SS Rat *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Jul-2005 21:09:10 (#13506)

you were NOT trespassed. *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 06-Jul-2005 20:01:28 (#13454)

IJ's in Palm Springs Area
Posted by VC on 07-Jul-2005 00:03:54 (#13457)

I recently was in the Palm Springs area for a few days and made it to three of the local IJ's (Injin Joints) in the area. Based on what I experienced and saw, I strongly advise to avoid the following IJ's:

Fantasy Springs: Had one $10 min DD game. Penetration was horrible 50%. 6 deckers were at most 4 deck penetration.

Agua Caliente: Mostly auto shufflers, a few 6 deck shoe games for $10 min but again were lucky to get 4 decks out of the shoe.

Casino Morongo: You are a Moron if you Go there. The worst of the worst. No table less than $15 min. Auto shufflers everywhere. 6 deck shoe games only dealt 3 decks then shuffle. I refused to play at this IJ.

The counter paranoia at these IJ's, especially Moron-Go is amazing. I guess the ploppies that populate these places make up for all the shuffling that goes on.

Are there any decent IJ's in the Southern California for blackjack or should I just give up and stick with Vegas, etc.? Thanks.

Crowded?
Posted by The Big Cowboy on 07-Jul-2005 10:12:55 (#13464)

Let me guess, these places were still packed with ploopies.

ye missed the best old laddy
Posted by eyesfor21 on 07-Jul-2005 11:06:19 (#13465)

Trump got a decent place there with okay rules.

off the beaten path
Posted by Victoria on 07-Jul-2005 13:17:15 (#13470)

In Riverside County, not that far from Palm Springs you can find this casino by driving half hour past the middle of nowhere and then getting lost and you should pull right into the parking lot. Three ugly bubble buildings and a real locals type place. No hotel, no spa, bad food and real nice people.
DD game is worthless.
Shoe game is hand shuffled, 6 deck, s-17, LSR, DA, DAS, but no resplit on aces.
Penetration varies a ton and it is key for this place.
Max bet is $500.
With the right dealer, it is probably the best shoe game in California.
Soboba

Victoria

Spa Casino
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Jul-2005 11:12:39 (#13467)

I found the shoe game at the Spa Casino, in downtown Palm Springs, playable. I was there about 5 months back.

Spa and Agua both...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Jul-2005 16:51:28 (#13475)

... use the same shuffle and it is PERFECT for CUT-OFF TRACKING. zg

Palm Springs
Posted by KennilworthKid on 07-Jul-2005 18:09:06 (#13477)

I was there over the Memorial Day weekend, and I do not agree with all of your facts...

One needs to mention that the Fantasy Springs is mostly a Mindplay shop, indeed over 2/3's of the tables use that system...On the other hand, the mindplay tables are for low stakes, and there was always a $2 minimum, 6 deck game going...and generally all shoes had from 1.75 to 1.5 decks cut off, with S17 and DAS. I never saw any table minimum of more than $25...and the $25 minimum games were usually the 2 deck games with pen in the 55 to 60% range, with S17 and DAS, and no mindplay. All tables there were handshuffled...

i visited three other casinos in Palm Springs, and Fantasy was the only one with Mindplay.

I did not see any CSM at the Agua, and I played a 6 deck game there for a short time, with S17, DAS...$10 minimums though seem to be the rule now, up from $5 minimums in 2004...my dealer handshuffled and plugged the cut-offs in three places...also the dealer shuffled each pair of grabs several times thus making ace-tracking very difficult in my opinion. And the pen from my dealer was way better than 2 decks...This was the second time i've visited this casino, and based on what I've seen the pen varies by dealer, so i think i was lucky this time.

The SPA is a very nice casino, and the limits were higher there, with $25 & $50 minimums the norm on a weekday morning. I saw a double deck game, S17 with D10 & D11 only, but the shuffle card set less than 1/2 from the bottom. I just was walking through, did not play, but I don't recall seeing any CSM's

The Spotlight29, which is closeby Fantasy Springs, had redchip games...none that would be considered great, but S17 games...I recall the pen on the double deck game was around 55-60 cards, handshuffled or autoshuffled i don't recall, but certainly not CSM, and not FAK2...I did see a 6/5 single deck game.

I did not see the two other casinos there, but the Sobota is one that I understand has some good rules and perhaps is worth looking at.

Mindplay
Posted by VC on 07-Jul-2005 22:05:25 (#13479)

Thanks for the info. How does the Mindplay system work? Can it actually determine a running count for a table? This was the first time I saw it in action at Fantasy Springs.

the count is child's play
Posted by Victoria on 08-Jul-2005 00:05:53 (#13481)

Mindplay: How about knowing the order of the cards yet to be dealt. Imagine what you could do with that information.
Check out some of the old posts.

It can read your mind and
Posted by Tom on 09-Jul-2005 01:35:57 (#13489)

cards.

my observation/correction *LINK*
Posted by rainman on 07-Jul-2005 22:16:22 (#13480)

Just wanted to make some corrections and express my observations. I agree that Morongo games suck since they cut off 3 decks....but I remember them using 8 decks and not 6....still unplayable unless you like to back count for 3 hours and then place 2 bets.

Spotlight 29 burns 6 cards instead of 1 whenever they start a new shoe and I remember them sweating me like crazy...anyone else had the same experience there or did I just happen to be there a day after they had some card counting seminar? Also-watch the dealers there: I've noticed quite a few payoff mistakes in the house's favor.

small correction to post re: SPA dd--card set less than 1/2 DECK from end *NM*
Posted by KennilworthKid on 10-Jul-2005 13:57:32 (#13494)

Moron-a-go,go
Posted by Tom on 09-Jul-2005 01:25:30 (#13488)

"The counter paranoia at these IJ's, especially Moron-Go is amazing. I guess the ploppies that populate these places make up for all the shuffling that goes on."

The only morons I see are the casinos that shuffle up on all those ploppies....hee,hee,those dumb*sses are losing money,oh well now let us move on to better logic.

My Casino allows card counting
Posted by Geoffrey on 07-Jul-2005 02:32:10 (#13460)

I'm just not so sure if it's worth it, so here are the rules:
* only 8-deck games
* 6-7 decks played
* no surrender
* min $10 bet
* no resplitting aces, and we may only hit split aces once.
* yes for double after splitting
* dealer stands on all 17s

Can anyone tell me if I should bother?

yes
Posted by bigplayer on 07-Jul-2005 09:29:20 (#13462)

if they allow mid-shoe entry & don't mind a lot of table hopping or you have the bankroll for spreading from 1x$10 to 2x$300

Yes, decent game...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Jul-2005 16:49:26 (#13474)

... will require the following -

- $10 min. 2x $50 max
- $6000
- Avoid neg-counts as much as possible
- Bet equal to true-count (x$10) when count is plus (+6 = 2x $30)
- Someone else here may be able to refine the preceding and tell you your RoR.

-------------------------------------
My Casino allows card counting

Posted By: Geoffrey
Date: 7/7/05 12:32:10 a.m.

I'm just not so sure if it's worth it, so here are the rules:

* only 8-deck games

* 6-7 decks played

* no surrender

* min $10 bet

* no resplitting aces, and we may only hit split aces once.

* yes for double after splitting

* dealer stands on all 17s

Can anyone tell me if I should bother?

He'll want a steeper ramp than that
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jul-2005 18:27:48 (#13478)

All depending on what count too. With a level 2 count and 1:20 spread you're going to be getting 20 units out around +8, and with level 1 around +4. This is just like an AC game, playable but a long hard grind.

penetration
Posted by BJforBooze on 08-Jul-2005 07:19:05 (#13483)

It will depend on the penetration. You say 6-7 played. 6/8 is bad. 7/8 is good.

What happens if you overdraw in a pitch game?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Jul-2005 20:41:55 (#13484)

The count is bad, you're near the cut card in a DD game and you'd rather not have another round dealt. You have 16 vs. dealer 10. You draw a 6. But you scratch for another card, 3, then 2, then 2, then another 3, then the cut card, then a 9, the dealer says "Hey come on" and with a giggle you toss in your 16. Mission accomplished, but are they going to: laugh with me, warn me, toss me out of the game, claim cheat, etc.? It sounds like a cheap and somewhat useful trick.

I have done it many times.
Posted by The Mayor on 08-Jul-2005 21:18:26 (#13485)

Oops! Sorry. I guess I wasn't paying attention.

Just once per sitting, though, please. You really can't get away with this too often.

its fun and pisses off the pit!
Posted by Learning to count on 08-Jul-2005 22:15:38 (#13486)

I had been dealt an ace and a 2. I hit and got another ace. I hit again and took another ace. So now I have a total of 5 or 15. SO I hit and get 3. Now I have a 8/18. I hit it again and get a two. I know I should have stopped but I was coming from a deep negative count. so I hit boom 3. I have a hard 13. I hit and get a four. Hard seventeen. I hit. I get a 4 for 21. The dealer and two pit monkeys are staring at me in disbelief. Hey it gave me the look of a ploppy. F*ck em!

Good way to get rid of ploppies too
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-Jul-2005 15:41:10 (#13491)

Wow yeah there's a good chance you'll help the dealer doing that and the ploppies will howl. If you can stand the heat, this might be a good way to depopulate a table when necessary.

I've done it
Posted by suicyco maniac on 09-Jul-2005 17:21:28 (#13492)

In fact I have even tucked a BJ a few times hoping the dealers hit cards would eat up another round and the cut card would surface. I agree that you shouldn't do it too often or it will start to annoy the staff. SM

Cost me $600 recently...
Posted by Dog Hand on 08-Jul-2005 22:47:31 (#13487)

Automatic Monkey,

I had two $150 stiff hands versus the dealer's 5. The ploppy on my left playing one hand drew an 8 and then a face. When he scratched for yet another hit, the dealer got suspicious and asked to see his cards. His original hand was a hard 16. I guess he was going for a world's record!

Everyone else stood, the dealer flipped his hole card, a 9, and then instead of taking the face that the ploppy overdrew, he pulled a 7 to make a 21, which swept the table.

Ouch!

As Mom used to say, "It's only fun until someone gets hurt!" ;-)

Dog Hand

Wow bad beat!
Posted by Learning to count on 09-Jul-2005 11:40:43 (#13490)

I had a red chip out. Low neg count. Thats why they call it gambling I guess.

Another Sim
Posted by psychology1976 on 09-Jul-2005 20:16:31 (#13493)

I appreciate anyone willing to run a couple of simulations for me:
1-8 spread, or higher. I'm not sure what my spread would be, I play mostly 6-deck shoe games.

Game 1: 5 or $10 min

2 deck, 70% pen, h17, double after splitting, re-splitting of aces, only
double on 8 or higher (no soft doubling if total doesn't equal 8 or higher).

Game 2: Same Min

2-deck, 60% pen, S17, dsa, rsa, Double 10 or higher.

Bankroll $10000.

Thanks for your assistance.

Let me know if you need anymore information.

Question about House Rules
Posted by Dog Hand on 10-Jul-2005 14:28:57 (#13495)

psychology1976,

For Game 1 you wrote:

2 deck, 70% pen, h17, double after splitting, re-splitting of aces, only double on 8 or higher (no soft doubling if total doesn't equal 8 or higher).

If you double A-7 vs. 5, and draw a 3, does that count as 21, or just 11? Some casinos insist that when you double a soft hand, the ace MUST count as 1, as pointed out by Carlson in his Blackjack for Blood.

This would have a small effect on the results.

Furthermore, are you looking for the optimum bet schedule for an 8:1 spread, or simply the optimum spread overall?

Dog Hand

RE:
Posted by psychology1976 on 10-Jul-2005 14:35:54 (#13496)

The rules say, double anything higher than 8. Having never played this game yet, I am unsure.

Run your own 'sims'...
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Jul-2005 21:50:54 (#13502)

...right here - http://www.cardcounter.com/CCC_start.htm

where?
Posted by stainless steel rat on 10-Jul-2005 16:39:27 (#13497)

Never had that happen at any place I have played. Where'd you see it?

On the other hand, I could tell you about splitting 10's to 6 (yes six) hands in Vegas last week. :) Never seen that before either...

Automatic Monkey's photo in Griffin Book... *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Jul-2005 16:19:42 (#13503)

...here ! zg

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Posted by Learning to count on 12-Jul-2005 16:26:52 (#13504)

oh shite now that is hilarious hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha........

Not really me
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Jul-2005 20:38:45 (#13505)

I drink not smoke!

A bit too much
Posted by Mayor on 14-Jul-2005 11:05:22 (#13515)

This is just a *tad* far away from the point of this board.

Bottoms up!
Posted by Sun Runner on 14-Jul-2005 11:37:35 (#13517)

Glad I got to copy those links before you took them down.

Having a night-cap is one thing; rubbing it on my face is another!!

yes, its quite remarkable. *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Jul-2005 12:21:22 (#13519)

A bit of animalistic porn I must say.
Posted by Learning to count on 14-Jul-2005 15:33:29 (#13520)

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