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Threads 1891 to 1920

Halloween Blackjack Ball Update: Sponsorship, Location and More Hype.
Posted by Viktor Nacht on 26-Aug-2005 18:10:29 (#13895)

Dear CardCounters,

Here it is - at long last, as foretold by the fortune tellers and prognosticators of old, a quick but exciting update to the Halloween Blackjack Ball.

First and foremost, I'm very pleased to announce that the Halloween Ball will be sponsored by the Worldwide Blackjack Tour, which will itself be kicking off in October from Boofabulous Las Vegas. You can read more about the WBT here.

WBT will also be providing the complete media coverage of the event, which will be edited into the broadcast of the first WBT events.

So, if you're interested in competing on TV at the party, competing on TV all around the world in the WBT, or just want to see and be seen, this is another great reason to come.

We've also secured a location, the brand-new Southwest Events Center at the corner of Industrial and Trop, directly off the I-15.

We'll be setting ticket prices, announcing VIP guests, and starting RSVPs early next week.

If you haven't already, make sure you book your travel arrangements, because this is going to be an interesting evening. Good, bad or a pit of pure, fiery evil, it's going to be a night to remember.

Much thanks to Eliot for letting me post my spam here. There's also a special note for authors on the AP.com Blackjack Main page. If you interested in displaying, selling, signing, promoting, etc your book, please read it. All are welcome.

Good Bites,

Invitation to visit Zen ZONE
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Aug-2005 22:03:01 (#13899)

If you haven't visited the Zen Zone recently, I encourage you to do so. It is an interesting and provocative journey, hosted by our own Zen Grifter.

That's ZenZONE, a/k/a "ZG's Cesspool of Hatred"! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Aug-2005 21:07:31 (#13903)

DD with good pen?
Posted by Jay Lee on 29-Aug-2005 15:24:57 (#13900)

I am planning to go on a trip in a couple weeks to play a better bj game than I am used to in the NY area. Can anybody recommend a place that has good dd games with good rules, good pen and no heat. I am planning on speading 25-100 or 10-50, 60. A place with a couple casinos nearby with a similar game/rules would be good too because if there is heat I can play a couple rounds and go back later. Thanks.

You need a better spread to beat DD
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Aug-2005 16:47:47 (#13901)

>I am planning on speading 25-100 or 10-50, 60.

Try spreading $10 to $100. You need *at least* a 6-1 spread to have a worthwhile edge against most DD games.

dd game with good pen
Posted by Jay Lee on 30-Aug-2005 15:02:46 (#13906)

OK, if I were to spread from 10-100 then can anybody reccomend a good place?

Red chip DD
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 30-Aug-2005 15:23:35 (#13907)

Well, due to current events Biloxi/Gulfport is probably out of the question for at least a little while.

The Upper Peninsula of Michigan has a few DD games with decent to excellent pen and late surrender. There is also some very good 6D there if you wish. I've been there and played to the table max with little heat. It is difficult to get there and you have to do a lot of driving between stores. Non-Caucasians stand out and will be noticed in these casinos.

Tunica MS- lots of good DD and SD and your betting level shouldn't get you in much trouble.

Vicksburg MS- there are slightly better games than Tunica (S17). But it's harder to get to and rumor has it there is more heat.

Reno NV, but if you are in northern NV you might want to try some SD. It requires a lot more finesse to get your bets down, and crowds are much more of an issue.

Thanks
Posted by Jay Lee on 30-Aug-2005 15:38:59 (#13908)

I read a post from another member here and he said the pen was 60 for dd in Biloxi and I also read somewhere that you should only play dd if the pen is 65 or better. Is this true? Is Tunica better than Biloxi?

Double Exposure simulator?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 30-Aug-2005 11:54:27 (#13904)

Does anyone know of any software that can handle this game? It seems worth investigating, at least.

Thoroughly analyzed in Wong...
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Aug-2005 14:50:44 (#13905)

... its entirely beatable, subject to the same conditions-considerations as regBJ... but the games are too few and far between. A better use of time might be BJSwitch which is growing. zg

BJS
Posted by Gorgon on 31-Aug-2005 13:06:51 (#13913)

I haven't noticed BJSwitch in my area yet. What are the rules and perhaps I can persuade the local stores to deal it. Thanks ZG.

BLACKJACK SWITCH -rules,edge,strategy *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 31-Aug-2005 19:06:28 (#13915)

BLACKJACK SWITCH

By Michael Shackleford

Michael Shackleford is known to the gambling world as the "Wizard of Odds." His book, Gambling 102, is scheduled to be published this summer. In the meantime you can visit his popular web site at www.wizardofodds.com.

One way to win at blackjack is to play two hands and try to change two bad hands into two good ones by surreptitiously switching the cards. That's not allowed; it's cheating. Unless, that is, you're playing a new game at the Four Queens called Blackjack Switch, in which case you can switch cards right out in the open. In this game, the player must play two hands and may switch only the second cards dealt to each hand. Of course, nothing ever comes for free. In exchange for being allowed to switch cards, blackjacks pay even money and if the dealer gets a total of 22, all non-busted player hands push (a player bust always loses). Following optimal strategy, the house edge is a low 0.2%.

The complete switching strategy is very lengthy, but fortunately, most of the important switches are obvious (see www.wizardofodds.com for the complete switching strategy). Less obvious is the amended basic strategy that you should play, which requires many changes from conventional basic strategy—primarily more hitting and less doubling and splitting.

Presently Blackjack Switch is offered at the Four Queens in Las Vegas (although additional casinos in Las Vegas are considering installing Blackjack Switch) and at Internet casinos powered by Playtech software

Playtech Rules

The following rules apply to the Playtech version.
All rules are based on conventional blackjack unless otherwise noted.
The player must make two bets of equal size.
Cards will be dealt face up.
The player may switch the 2nd card dealt to each hand. For example if one hand has 5,10 and the other has 10,6 the player may switch the 10 and 6 to have two hands of 11 and 20.
Six decks are used.
Dealer hits a soft 17.
Player may double on any 2 cards.
Player may double after a split.
Player may not resplit.
Winning player blackjacks pay even money.
Full European no-peek rule. Player loses total amount bet against a dealer blackjack. A benefit of this rule is that the player can switch to a blackjack, even if the dealer has a blackjack.

A dealer total of 22 will push against any player total of 21 or less. A player blackjack will still beat a dealer 22.

Four Queens Rules

The Four Queens offers the same rules as Playtech with these changes:
Dealer peeks for blackjack and will turn over a blackjack immediately. Unlike conventional blackjack peeking for blackjack favors the casino by 0.11% because the player does not have the chance to switch to a blackjack if the dealer has one.

Eight decks instead of six.
Player can resplit to four hands instead of two.

The following table shows the basic strategy under Playtech rules after the switch decision has been made. The reason for the differences compared to conventional blackjack strategy is the push on 22 rule. This table is based on the 6-deck Playtech rules and was developed by Bill Kirkpatrick. The Four Queens strategy is the same except the player should split aces against an ace.

S = stand

H = Hit

D=Double if allowed, otherwise hit (except stand on soft 18)

P=Split

Ignoring the above changes and playing regular basic strategy increases the house edge by about 0.22%.

At Internet casinos powered by Playtech software, the dealer does not peek for blackjack, which works in the player's favor, because you can switch to a blackjack all the time. At the Four Queens, if the dealer has a blackjack, the player is stuck with what he was dealt.

Following optimal strategy, the house edge at Playtech casinos is just 0.05%, and Playtech offers 0.1% cashback and bonuses for new players.

Do you buy that basic strategy for BJS?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Sep-2005 03:38:45 (#13918)

I see it is different from standard BJ BS, drawing on 14 vs. 2, etc., and I understand that the reasoning is to compensate for the push-on-dealer-22 rule. But I don't see how that would work- if the dealer is going to get a 22 you push and there is nothing you can do about it, and it won't help to bust more stiffs. Mayor, any opinion on this?

14 vs 2
Posted by Geoff Hall on 01-Sep-2005 07:32:25 (#13919)

AM,

The reason for standing on 14 verses a dealer 2, in regular BJ, is that you are better off going for a dealer 'Bust' rather than taking the chance of improving your hand.

With BJ Switch you do not get the full payback as you do not get paid on a dealer 22. This slight change means that you are actually better off trying to improve with a 14 rather than standing and hoping for a 'Bust'.

Incidentally, 14 vs 2 is a very marginal decision (bit like 16 vs 10 in regular).

Best regards

Geoff

My opinion on BJSwitch's vulnerability
Posted by Mayor on 01-Sep-2005 11:27:16 (#13920)

>Mayor, any opinion on this?

A bit of math first. You are playing two hands. Each hand must be considered an "ordered" pair, since you can only switch the top cards. Therefore there are 10x10 = 100 possible first hands. To have a potential for a switch, the top cards cannot match, so a switch will be considered if the second hand has any differnt first card from the other pair (9 choices) and a different top card (9 choices). That gives 9x9 = 81 second hands, for a total of 100x81 = 8,100 switchable situations. By symmetry, (reverse left and right hands), there are only 4,050 actual different starting positions. Any of these faces one of ten dealer up cards. This makes 4,050 x 10 = 40,500 starting configurations. My math may not be quite right, it is early in the day, but you get the idea.

Yes, this game is vulnerable, but the basic strategy for which cards to switch in each of the possible 40,500 initial situations is enormous (and getting count based indices for switching is even more daunting). Mostly it is played from an 8 deck shoe, so finding a game with decent penetration may also be problematic. A computer (or someone who was willing to devote A LOT of time) could easily beat this game. For the rest of us, there are so many more lucartive opportunities, I think Geoff has, by the sheer complexity of the games BS, made the game off limits to the AP community.

Of course if you learn a simplified basic strategy and basic switching strategy, and spread heavily, and the game is deeply dealt, I am certain you have the edge. I'll leave it to Geoff to tell us how much of an edge and which strategy!

Good work Geoff!

--Mayor

BJ Switch - Vulnerable ?
Posted by Geoff Hall on 01-Sep-2005 18:38:14 (#13927)

Thank's for your reply Mayor - nice to know that BJ Switch is a very challenging game even for the experts :-)

I think that there are 10,350 'switching' decisions and roughly 80% of these are either obvious or are able to be performed by reasonably competent players. The other 2,000 are tricky and quite a few of them contain 'switches' involving an Ace. However, the really nasty decisions generally have a low penalty ev for making the incorrect decision.

Remembering back I think that 8,8 & 2,6 verses a dealer 6 is one of the very tricky decisions which players will play either way.

I have also seen that Arnold Snyder's new book has a chapter devoted on 'Blackjack Switch' and I will be interested to read that as he has performed the analysis using his own methods.

As far as the Basic Strategy for 'switching' goes then you can apply some 'rule of thumb' generalisations. I also produced a 'cheat sheet' which seemed to cover a lot of the possible 'switches'. I don't want to produce it here as it wouldn't give the experts anything to do :-)

I have run a few counting simulations and haven't found a count system, as yet, that works particularly well with BJ Switch. It goes without saying that the game can be beaten with card counting as it is 95% regular Blackjack.

So what about 'switching' errors ?

I have run simulations using different standards of 'switching' ability - Computer (perfect), expert, good, average & mediocre.

On the plus side I found that mediocre players would not get too burnt by incorrect 'switches'. A relatively poor player would expect to lose about 0.7% in ev from 'switches' which is a lot less than they will lose by applying incorrect Basic Strategy, even in the regular game.

On the other hand, an 'expert' will expect to lose 0.1% - 0.3% (depending on how good). At a starting edge of 0.2% this means that an expert will start at around 0.3%-0.5%, which I think is acceptable in today's multi-deck game. If a player uses regular Basic Strategy then this will hurt him by 0.23%.

The problem with the edge is that a lot of casino managers are scared off by the relatively low edge and don't realise that 'switch' errors add considerably to the house edge. I even had one manager who told me, after watching the game for 3 months, that this was the only game that had a player edge. This came from someone with 30 years in the casino industry (and the game was holding slightly higher than their regular game at the time). When the game is running well for the players it is difficult to see how the 'push 22' can compensate for the 'switch'.

Casino Royale now have 6 Blackjack Switch tables and you cannot play regular multi-deck Blackjac there anymore. Casinos do not install games like this unless the bottom line is achieving acceptable targets. However, one thing I have noticed, is that the hold% has dropped since it's initial appearance last year and that managers have told me that players are returning to the game and seem to be wiser to the 'switch' decisions. (I blame these helpful Blackjack forums :-) ).

The game was removed from Harrahs because they did not win at the game despite taking more than expected on the game. I still don't know why they didn't hold as well as they should have although I suspect dealer error formed a large part of the negative deviation. As a result 'Strip' properties are more reluctant to house the game due to the apparently unattractive house edge and the failure to be profit-making at Harrahs. The removal from Harrahs cost me a lot of installation in Las Vegas.

However, there is a new version approved in Nevada and this version is likely to be installed into the major 'Strip' properties. I've had to bow to pressure and although I want as fair a game as possible I also want to see Blackjack Switch in as many locations as I can get. The newer version will have 'switched Blackjacks' = 21 (not 'Blackjack') - this means that they will push against a dealer 21 & 22. I'll leave it to you to see what effect this has on the house edge. Needless to say it adds a substantial amount to the starting ev (although is acceptable for 'Hit S17' versions).

As far as expansion of the game.

I have 2 large casinos, towards the East coast, that wish to install the game and numerous casino in Washington that want the game (problem there is getting the approval due to their 7-box rule).

Without saying too much I would expect the game to expand very quickly before the end of the year. I'll post something as soon as anything concrete has been formed.

If you get this far in the message then 'thankyou' for spending the time reading this post and I hope that you get the chance to try out the game sometime.

Best regards

Geoff

Error on acceptable rule change ...
Posted by Geoff Hall on 01-Sep-2005 18:42:29 (#13928)

I said that 'Switched Blackjacks =21' is acceptable for 'Hit S17' versions. I meant to say 'Stand S17' versions.

Thanks for the update!
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Sep-2005 11:50:28 (#13933)

You said:
>If you get this far in the message then 'thankyou' for spending the time reading this post and I hope that you get the chance to try out the game sometime.

It is very rare for a game developer to be this candid, about the game, its vulnerabilities, its successes (Casino Royale) and failures (Harrahs). It is not at all unexpected about the BJ -> 21 variation -- that sort of thing is happening all over, but it does take a big chunk of the thrill out of the game. There are much easier fixes to add house edge that don't hurt the game's excitement (e.g. restrict doubling to hard hands, or nDAS).

As for the number of starting configurations being (approx) 10,000, I would be interested in how you arrived at that, if it's not too much trouble. We are talking about the two player's hands vs. the dealer's up card -- that's 5 cards in play (not just the 4 player's cards).

Thanks,

--Mayor

Geoff has enjoyed the interactive quality ...
Posted by zengrifter on 02-Sep-2005 16:34:50 (#13938)

... with APs since he first formulated this game. zg

Interaction
Posted by Geoff Hall on 03-Sep-2005 00:25:01 (#13945)

"Geoff has enjoyed interaction with APs since he first formulated this game." zg

Hi Zen,

Yes, you are correct that I enjoy and admire players who use their intellectual ability to take advantage of a situation.

Probably the main reason though is that I used to be an AP too and travelled the UK earning good money, particularly when the 'over/under' was predominant here.

The game has probably suffered (installation wise) because I was insistent on providing a game that was fair to the players. I would think that the stubborness to fairness attitude comes from my days of being a player.

Best regards

Geoff

Number of Switches
Posted by Geoff Hall on 03-Sep-2005 00:18:01 (#13944)

Mayor : "As for the number of starting configurations being (approx) 10,000, I would be interested in how you arrived at that, if it's not too much trouble."

I am having difficulty coming up with the 10,350 figure, I keep getting 10,250 which I suppose is near to it although I am overlooking something. Karel Janecek did the original calculations and I have emailed him but have not received a reply as yet.

I think that it's too early in the morning for me now :-) (6am) Getting ready for my flight to Las Vegas tomorrow - I hate that 9 hours on the 'plane.

My calculations are based on a player receiving 2 hands a/b & c/d ('a' and 'c' being the top, or second, cards) which are 'switchable' provided 'a' does not match 'c' or 'b' does not match 'd'.

So, number of ways the 4 cards can be dealt out is :-

No. of ways 'a' = 10 X no. of ways 'b' = 10 X no. of ways 'c' = 9 X no. of ways 'd' = 9 = 8,100.

However, there are various combinations of a/b & c/d which give identical 'switches :-

a/b & c/d = b/a & d/c = c/d & a/b = d/c & b/a = a/d & c/b = d/a & b/c
= b/c & d/a = c/b & a/d

So, there are 8 combinations.

8,100/8 = 1,012.5 (this is where I am overlooking something)

There are 10 possible dealer upcards so :-

1,012.5 X 10 = 10,125 individual 'switches'.

Hope this helps and doesn't confuse the issue further. If anything it may help you to calculate the figure and spot my (deliberate :-) ) error.

Best regards

Geoff

Thanks!
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Sep-2005 11:17:59 (#13946)

I only accounted for one symmetry (a/b & c/d = c/d & a/b), that pretty much answers my question.

>a/b & c/d = b/a & d/c = c/d & a/b = d/c & b/a = a/d & c/b = d/a & b/c
= b/c & d/a = c/b & a/d

Note that if both of the hands is paired (e.g. 8,8 vs. T,T) then you don't get all 8 symmetries, you only get 4 symmetries.

8,8 vs. T,T
T,T vs. 8,8
T,8 vs. 8,T
8,T vs. T,8

There are 10 choices for the first pair, and 9 choices for the second pair. THis gives 90 possible pair/pair hands with 4 symmetries.

Thus, out of the 8,100 you have:

(8010/8) + (90/4) = 1012.5 + 22.5 = 1035 possibilities. Against 10 dealer up cards, this gives 10,350 possible switches.

But, I'm glad it created a question for you! 8-)

--Mayor

The BJSw tables I've seen, so far...
Posted by zengrifter on 02-Sep-2005 16:32:50 (#13937)

... don't have sufficient penetration to motivate me to learn the game. However, If I was promoting the game, I would encourage the operators/licensees to deal deep to increase their profits from that game. zg

MOE DALITZ - SHARK IN THE DESERT... *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Aug-2005 21:19:11 (#13910)

... now posted in ZenZONE. zg

Katrina relief
Posted by The Mayor on 31-Aug-2005 11:00:33 (#13911)

Have you made a donation yet? We need to get Biloxi back on its feet as soon as possible!

Gov. Barbour reports all Gulf casinos destroyed *NM* *LINK*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Sep-2005 01:33:02 (#13917)

I guess tunica will have to take up the slack.
Posted by Learning to count on 01-Sep-2005 15:35:06 (#13921)

Its to bad all those people out of work. The state was already poor. This is a sure to be a death to the areas economy as well as to the rest of the country.

Tunica is destroyed too, isn't? *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 01-Sep-2005 16:47:50 (#13922)

No way, Tunica is hundreds of miles north
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Sep-2005 17:13:12 (#13923)

Even Vicksburg is just fine and they are in the middle.

I just can't imagine what that must have been like, looking out your window and seeing one of those casino barges crashing towards you on a 30 foot wave.

You really should get out more often.
Posted by Anon on 08-Sep-2005 06:48:45 (#13989)

Out of Nevada that is. Tunica County, and the municipality of Robinsonville, is thirty-five miles south of Memphis.

Memphis was destroyed too, right? *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Sep-2005 21:18:22 (#13996)

Blackjack scam targets male tourists...
Posted by zengrifter on 01-Sep-2005 17:43:40 (#13925)

... now posted at ZenZONE (a/k/a "ZG's Cesspool of Hatred")

Casino Owners Found Guilty of Fraud...
Posted by zengrifter on 02-Sep-2005 16:36:53 (#13939)

... now posted at ZG's Cesspool of Hatred. zg

Zengrifter, et. al.
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 02-Sep-2005 22:30:25 (#13942)

Please stop making fun of BradRod... if anything, as a personal favor to me.

He is a good man. I have met him and he is a wonderful and interesting person. Also, he is a very competent A.P. from what I can tell.

I am not a religious person. I don't entirely understand his protest. But let's back off and think for awile. OK????

-Felix

Concur *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Sep-2005 23:39:06 (#13943)

I just happen to think that...
Posted by zengrifter on 03-Sep-2005 13:57:14 (#13948)

"ZG's Cesspool of Hatred" is a catchy alternative name for the ZenZONE! zg

Disagree
Posted by Mayor on 03-Sep-2005 14:15:22 (#13950)

>"ZG's Cesspool of Hatred" is a catchy alternative name for the ZenZONE! zg

I think "ZenZone" is powerful, and if you advertised it a little, you could get a huge following. I think "Cesspool of Hatred" will drive people away. Very few intelligent people would want anything to do with such a board. I say this as a non-objective non-third-party observer.

If you want to do something big with your board, you certainly have the name and reputation to do so. What you don't want are negative power words pulling you down.

--Mayor

When people come to me and say Pet's-Pet what's what? I refer them to the ZenZone *NM*
Posted by Pet's-Pet on 05-Sep-2005 00:06:10 (#13961)

Respectfully ..
Posted by Sun Runner on 05-Sep-2005 12:50:20 (#13962)

> When people come to me and say Pet's-Pet what's what? I refer them to the ZenZone.

If people only read the Zen Zone to find out 'what's what', they'd be holed up in their house with a large gun waiting for either the bad aliens, the radical Christian's, the government, or those that shot JFK to be coming for them to take them away.

I can't wait for the when the post hits that either the President or the Republican party actually hastened (participated in) Rhenquist's death last week so as to insure the chance of getting the Supreme Court sewn up a little tighter.

Things like that just don't happen.

(Except of course when the Clinton's had Vince Foster offed. Did that story ever make the Zen Zone?)

Felix, both myself and Mayor asked BradRod ...
Posted by zengrifter on 03-Sep-2005 14:01:42 (#13949)

...to identify specific posts that would warrant the "cessspool of hatred" moniker... SO NOW YOU ASK HIM. Request his return to the court of public debate. zg

Done... *NM*
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 03-Sep-2005 15:07:49 (#13951)

Maybe you should find someone else to pick on
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-Sep-2005 16:31:56 (#13952)

Someone other than Israel. Anon claimed that he speaks out against injustice wherever he sees it. If the worst injustice in the world he or you can see is in Israel, you are either blind or anti-Semite. The world is infested with horrible places and events. Real stuff, nothing has to be sensationalized. Maybe you can put the problems of the world in order of severity and address them in that order. Sometime by the 23rd Century, you might work your way down to Israel.

We deleted JayLee's post because ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Management on 04-Sep-2005 07:37:30 (#13954)

we are here to discuss Advantage play and Black Jack. We rarely censor but in this case the diragatory cultural and racial discriptions have to go. All who use thier intellects for higher objectives are welcomed here. We are here to mathematicaly and legally beat the casinos at thier own games of so called chance.

Jack-booted post busters strike again! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 04-Sep-2005 13:47:15 (#13956)

not jack-booting at all
Posted by timbertom on 04-Sep-2005 15:37:18 (#13957)

I agree with the deleting of the post. I am far from being a "politically correct" person; I do however object to his language. We're here to learn and help each other beat the house or to enjoy the game more. His comments about the ethic origin of the dealer and pit boss add nothing to the story and only reflect poorly on Mr. Lee. I'm all for personal freedom, but there is something about a theatre and calling fire that also makes sense.
As an observation Zig, even though I've "lurked' these pages for a few years, I only recently started reading The Zen Zone and I really enjoy it. I'm glad the mayor doesn't have a jack-boot policy or there wouldn't be a link button to your zone.

Is this a threat? *NM*
Posted by Anon on 04-Sep-2005 17:57:54 (#13958)

..Itching in Vegas?
Posted by Stuart Wild on 06-Sep-2005 02:04:31 (#13965)

It is Friday evening, the end of August is near and I would love to welcome the first day of the new month like usual. It is the point of zero where I start the count of my winnings all over again. Now my room mate is "willing" to learn how to count cards. Maybe that choice itself is the most easiest one. Becoming or being a professional cardcounter is a job like all other jobs, except every raise you got is accompanied by a hit from the pitboss watching you. The only job where raises are not given but need to be earned by yourself, and they ain't gonna make it easy for you.

This beautiful evening we decided to go to Boulder Station where their welcome at the tables is nothing else than a sleezy goodluck. Really, next time an almost naked cocktail waitress is coming near me chanting here coaktail song out of her to tight up strapped blouse, I am gonna tell here that the redlight district in Amsterdam has more opportunities for here.

Sitting at one of their tables we got the Bitch. Talking all the time to get me out of my proposition she smashed the cards at front of me showing a total disrespect for her own being. Losing my part, I helped my all excited in heaven looking room mate upon the rehabilitation of our chipstack. Blackjack isn't about now alone you see. It is about now with a future remark towards the word now...

Being emotional stable while all the plus bets are losing ones, is one of the most difficult things to do while under the pressure of making decisions not based upon emotions. One of those hands I got even pissed. Two tens making 20 versus the dealer's 4 is a good hand with a 1 percent advantage, but.... like I stated earlier it is not about winning that hand now, it is about making the best decisions for the sake of future percentages. My room mate did not understand yet that
splitting tens sometimes is a reasonable decision.

I was not sure what he was doing that time he saw the tens. Looking somewhat confused he stared from his cards to his 25 dollar bet, me trying to convince him fast enough that we need to split this hand. The bitch fat and ugly and looking for revenge based upon personal issues could not wait and told that we would be greedy and argued that we are playing with the entire table.

After hearing this remark I could not remember to laugh or to grab here over waited belly over the table to tell her that playing like the rest must be a social event than, if I look around this entertaining garden called Trashy Vegas. In a moment of impatience not sure about the outcomen and seeing my room mate still staring I grabbed the cards and commanded; split the tens dammit, I am not wasting my time at social events.

The bitch reacted furious telling me not to touch the cards and to shut up. I immediately called the pitboss who ofcourse does not give a shit either and told him that by being born again you should not tell somebody to shut up. Meanwhile the dealer busted and sometimes it pays of to do the right thing...

Of course Euro trash are all looking like homo sexuals therefore she could not resist telling my room mate where his boyfriend went after I left the table for a healthy preview with my room mate about why and what to do when you are team mates. Vegas more and more I see what a trash this town is, and how stupid all those people coming here thinking it is acceptable to lose day after day, simply because that is easier than walking your own not approved path by the audiance.

My favorite "cocktail song"
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 06-Sep-2005 10:33:02 (#13967)

Your post and the mention of "chanting her cocktail song" reminds me of my favorite "cocktail song." There are many that stand out in my mind. Typically not because of what the cocktail waitress says, but how she says it. It is typically the "COCKTAIL" from the 40 something woman with the cigarette rasp. The reader must understand that I play in some of the more dingy venues. However it is possible to add some spice the the statement. My favorite is (in that same raspy voice) "Can the El Cortez buy you a drink". Ha Ha. The first time I heard that I nearly fell out of my chair.

-Shaggy

love that one *NM*
Posted by Stuart Wild on 06-Sep-2005 17:30:28 (#13978)

Mine too..
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 06-Sep-2005 19:01:24 (#13985)

I knew what you were going to say before I even opened the link!

You guys and your emotions
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Sep-2005 11:10:37 (#13968)

"...Being emotional stable while all the plus bets are losing ones, is one of the most difficult things to do while under the pressure of making decisions not based upon emotions. One of those hands I got even pissed. Two tens making 20 versus the dealer's 4 is a good hand with a 1 percent advantage, but.... like I stated earlier it is not about winning that hand now, it is about making the best decisions for the sake of future percentages. My room mate did not understand yet that splitting tens sometimes is a reasonable decision..."

Good God, how high was the count where it is a good idea to split 10's vs. 4? That is a legitimate index play, but one of minimal value. I believe you were playing shoe (because you said that the dealer was upset that you touched the cards) so counts that high are very rare indeed. And you said there was a $25 bet down, so the count could not have been that high. Therefore from what you have said I deduce that splitting 10's was the wrong decision in this instance. Splitting 10's vs. 4 is worth pennies per hour even to a black chip player. It's not worth fretting about, on any level, and there are experienced counters who don't split 10's at all because it's too much of a giveaway for a counter, and they don't miss the money.

"...I was not sure what he was doing that time he saw the tens. Looking somewhat confused he stared from his cards to his 25 dollar bet, me trying to convince him fast enough that we need to split this hand. The bitch fat and ugly and looking for revenge based upon personal issues could not wait and told that we would be greedy and argued that we are playing with the entire table..."

Now you are starting to sound like someone else who posted here recently! Looks like your anger over losing sessions might be affecting you at the table. Understandable. I'm always playing short-stacked and it gets to me, knowing emotionally that if I don't turn this session around I won't be playing again for a while, and then knowing mathematically that *I* cannot turn anything around, that's variance's job, and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it other than just keep playing according to plan.

You might want to reconsider trying to train other counters at the table, because if you can get so mad at a dealer and about bad variance that you are going on tilt, having a bad student can only be much worse.

My philosophy on count-based 10-splits ...
Posted by zengrifter on 06-Sep-2005 13:15:46 (#13971)

... is that while it may be of little value in the long-run, it is nonetheless high gain in the moment that it occurs.

BTW, I can assure you that Stuart Wild knows when to split 10s v 4. He was playing small stakes.

I had dealer 4 with a HiLo equivalent of +13 last night. First hand is 10s, split, one becomes 12 and the other 14. Second hand 10s again, split, one becomes 15, the other lands an Ace and the count is high enough for me to consider doubling on it, but alas no DAS. Everyone at the table is in high-alert "what is he doing!?" Dealer flipped hole 10 and busted with another 10.

I looked at the others who all held stiffs, their eyes wide with relief and told them, "Do not attempt this at home without adult supervision!" zg

Assumptions
Posted by Sun Runner on 06-Sep-2005 13:43:19 (#13973)

<font size=3>Good God, how high was the count where it is a good idea to split 10's vs. 4? That is a legitimate index play, but one of minimal value. I believe you were playing shoe .. so counts that high are very rare indeed. And you said there was a $25 bet down, so the count could not have been that high. </font>

It could have been; that is a poor assumption. More counters than not shy away from making the proper big bets.

Therefore from what you have said I deduce that splitting 10's was the wrong decision in this instance.

Or you might have deduced that this bet, the one in the friend/student's bet square, was a flat bet not intended to correlate with the count at all.

I love splitting tens. I'm no pro, I'm usually not sweating the heat, and it is a blast. It's positive EV, it gives some at the table great fun and others it just pisses off. The best of all worlds.

Generally, I understand why the pros would not do it, but I still manage to enjoy my time at the table.

Think about it. If you are in a rich slug of cards, maybe not playing alone, might as well split and soak up all you can of this little run. With a few others at the table the money cards will probably be all gone next time around, and so might I be.

splitting tens
Posted by Stuart Wild on 06-Sep-2005 17:29:18 (#13977)

Well, in response to your response I was playing double deck. I just touched my neigbours cards because it went all a bit slow. I am not agree with the fact that you give yourself away as a counter doing so. If you have a good bet covering plan you should sometimes just split tens for the fun of it ofcourse when cheap bets are out, so they get used to you bieng an idiot. I love to play that role. It suites me very well.. Do well.

Stuart

eyeinthesky...
Posted by jblaze on 06-Sep-2005 09:33:17 (#13966)

do they really have sd at the resorts and claridge? or is it 6-5?

It's 6:5
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Sep-2005 13:39:18 (#13972)

Still, if you play it right and there are 1-2 hands in the game it has a higher SCORE than the shoe game. That should tell you how bad the shoe game is.

re: aut. mon.
Posted by jblaze on 06-Sep-2005 16:44:03 (#13976)

who would ever play the shoe game straight up? ive noticed youre a ct player, interesting... is it worth it driving 3.5hrs to ct instead of 2hrs to ac... becomes an issue of time, gas prices, and recognition. am i missing any unforseen advantageous situations?

I'm in CT...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Sep-2005 17:56:44 (#13979)

... so it's an issue of 1.5 hrs to the CT stores or 3 hrs to AC! So there is no reason at all for me to go to AC unless something special is planned. CT has LS, AC pen can be slightly better on the average than CT, but not a half deck better, and the LS rule is roughly equivalent in value to a half deck pen in a shoe game. Still, more games in AC means more opportunities for advanced techniques.

6 decks good pen?
Posted by Jay Lee on 06-Sep-2005 18:40:42 (#13982)

Where did u find decent pen at Mohegan? Is it the $25 no-mid shoe or at the Earth casino?

You have to shop for it
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Sep-2005 00:32:21 (#13986)

Watch the dealers, find one who is cutting less than 1.5 decks, and have a seat.

Shoe games
Posted by Jay Lee on 09-Sep-2005 14:43:53 (#13992)

How come some shoes have a curtain and some don't? Is there anyway they can cheat you with the curtain?

Game protection
Posted by Sonny on 09-Sep-2005 15:00:11 (#13993)

> How come some shoes have a curtain and some don't? Is there anyway they can
> cheat you with the curtain?

The curtain on the front of the shoe is there to cover the backs of the cards. This help to protect the casino against marked cards since the players will not be able to see the cards before they are dealt. What good is a marked card if you can't see the mark?

The dealers are trained to use their left hand to cover the front of the shoe, but there are times when they must use both hands during play. The curtain covers the shoe even when the dealers can't.

-Sonny-

Bush Family Fortunes...
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Sep-2005 21:16:29 (#13995)

... the story of how George Bush's grandfather aided Hitler's rise to power and established that family's fortune, is now posted part 1 at the ZenZONE. zg

Invitation to Los Angeles counters.
Posted by Sonny on 11-Sep-2005 17:27:24 (#13997)

I'll extend my invitation from another board:

--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, Sonny <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> My previous post got me to thinking: I live in Los Angeles, have a BJ
> table, and throw casino parties for my friends about once a month. Why
> not open up my casino to card counters? It would be a great way to get
> some free practice (not for real money of course. You guys would
> bankrupt me!) and to discuss Advantage Play techniques with other
> players. If anybody is interested you can email me at moretrinity@hotmail.com

Poker craze sparks book publishing explosion
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Sep-2005 22:24:46 (#13998)

Poker craze sparks book publishing explosion
BY DAVID MCKEE
BUSINESS PRESS

Poker's upsurge in popularity has been a jackpot for the publishing industry. New York City-based Cardoza Publishing is reporting a tenfold increase in sales for its poker-related titles and USA Today estimates that 60 poker books will make print this year.

Locally, one publisher has found itself ahead of the curve, another is trying to catch up and a third is sitting out the poker craze altogether.

According to Huntington Press Publisher Anthony Curtis, the national leader in poker publishing is not Cardoza but Henderson-based Two Plus Two Publishing, run by Mason Malmuth and David Sklansky.

Between them, the pair have written 26 of Two Plus Two's 43 poker titles. "They're pretty much it if you're going for the top poker books," Curtis said of Sklansky and Malmuth's operation.

...continued here - http://www.lvbusinesspress.com/articles/2005/09/09/news/news01.txt

Grosjean busted Griffin!
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Sep-2005 15:16:35 (#14000)

Griffin Investigations, Inc. files for bankruptcy
Posted By: Al Rogers

Chapter 11 bankruptcy filed September 7, 2005, District of Nevada case number 05-19178. The largest creditor listed is Griffin's attorneys in the Grosjean/Russo case, listed as being owed $106,868.15. Mr. Grosjean and Mr. Russo are listed as being owed $105,000.00. Nine other unsecured creditors are listed, with the smallest one being Office Depot for $131.72.

Pinch me. *NM*
Posted by Anon on 12-Sep-2005 15:51:09 (#14001)

Are they liquidating their assets?
Posted by Sonny on 12-Sep-2005 16:34:02 (#14002)

Imagine the hoard of card counters that would show up for that auction! How much would you pay to see your page and the photos they took? How about their computers? How much would you pay to sit in Andy Anderson's chair in your office?

Thank God almighty we're free at last!

-Sonny-

Chapter 11 vs. Chapter 7
Posted by BlackJackHack on 12-Sep-2005 17:07:22 (#14004)

Not so fast.

This is a Chapter 11 filing, not a Chapter 7 filing.

In a Chapter 7 proceeding of a business entity, the property of a corporate debtor is essentially liquidated by a trustee, with distributions made to the various creditors, all subject to Court approval.

In a Chapter 11 proceeding, a corporate debtor attempts to "reorganize." During the course of the proceeding, the Chapter 11 debtor typically operates as a "debtor in possession," which operates its business with strict monthly reporting requirements, and requiring court approval for anything but the most routine expenditures/business decisions. There are some circumstances, however, in which a trustee may be appointed.

The objective in a Chapter 11 proceeding is approval of a Plan of Reorganization, pursuant to which the debtor is permitted to emerge from bankruptcy while paying its creditors some percentage of the debtors' obligations. Sometimes, a plan is agreed upon by the creditor group - in other circumstances, the matter is hotly contested.

Do you think they'll be allowed to do this?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Sep-2005 20:44:05 (#14007)

Continue to libel advantage players as cheaters and expose them to danger and rough treatment by casino security personnel?

I would think that the very first thing the creditors would want them to do is immediately cease the behavior that caused them to incur about half of their debt.

In my estimation, if a company like Griffin, which has no inventory and minimal overhead has all that debt OTHER than what was caused by the Grosjean/Russo case, something is wrong. Very wrong. Think "loans to the Griffins". In other words, they will probably soon be visiting a different courthouse.

suspicious
Posted by Victoria on 13-Sep-2005 00:18:06 (#14009)

First off: I can name two creditors who would not want them to continue to slander honest people.

The whole thing stinks. They operate out of a shack on Beverly's property, they have what, 5 employees, a few vehicles and computers and 150 casinos pay them. No idea of what kind of salary the two owners give themselves but to me their whole deal sounds like a cash cow and not a sinking ship in debt.

It will be interesting at least as information gets known.

Victoria

chapter 11 is not chapter 7
Posted by Victoria on 12-Sep-2005 19:08:13 (#14005)

Not sure of all the differences but I believe they will be allowed to restructure debt or something and stay in business.

I also believe that a judgement gives some sort of priority to Grosjean and Russo and perhaps gives them the ability to take part in future management of the agency. Now that would be real interesting.

Having contracts with 150 casinos and operating out of a shack makes me wonder what kind of secured creditors they have and how much they are hiding! Probably worth investigating.

Victoria

Griffin walks on water
Posted by Winnie Wong on 13-Sep-2005 03:00:29 (#14010)

Could this all be a ploy on Griffin's part.
Maybe they want to lure all the AP's out of the
woods and capture them all at once in a huge net.

Reason: they had contracts with 150 casinos each paying
at least $2,000?? How much is that per/yr?
I think they will open the coffin and walk on water in
a year under another name. Beware, it could be a trap!
regards
Winnie Wong

Griffin Bankruptcy
Posted by BlackJackHack on 12-Sep-2005 17:00:10 (#14003)

I took a look at the petition.

I have downloaded the petition (in .pdf format). If the Mayor would like to put it on the site, I can email it to him.

If anybody is interested, the two 50% shareholders of Griffin are:

Beverly S. Griffin
10336 Luxembourg Ave.
LV, NV 89145

Robert R. Griffin
1607 Sombrero
LV, NV 89109

With respect to the 20 largest creditors, as you noted, there is the $106k Grosjean et al judgment, a $105k debt to defense counsel, $124k in alleged loans from the Griffins, and a $21k debt to Bank of America. The rest of the debts listed are quite nominal (<$5k).

While I'm not a bankruptcy specialist, it seems like a highly questionable bankruptcy filing, inasmuch as the petitioner listed its assets as between $100k-$500k, and its debts appear to be around $350k, which includes $124k in alleged loans from the two shareholders. I assume Mr. Nersesian will be actively involved in the proceeding on behalf of his clients.

We'll learn more when the full schedules are filed - they are due on 9/22/05. They will have to list all assets, creditors, contracts, and various other information.

If anybody wants to meet the Griffins, go to the Foley Bldg, Rm 1500 on 10/12/2005 at 01:00 PM for the meeting of creditors.

We met Bev at the trial and we found her
Posted by Learning to count on 12-Sep-2005 19:48:14 (#14006)

to be quite the dish! She was greedy, vane, and had the ability to be evil and cruel! We caught the last couple days of the trial and were able to witness cardcounting history. We salute the victors! Carpe Diem!

What goes around comes around!
Posted by MJ on 14-Sep-2005 19:49:10 (#14014)

Wonderful post Grifter!

Griffin ruined the dream life for so many professional teams such as the Hyland teams, MIT teams, Czech teams, and Uston teams...not to mention numerous other professional players. Griffin deliberately instills fear into the casinos just so they will subscribe to their online database of suspected cheats and card counters.

I reckon even if Griffin never came along the net total of what these professional teams won/could of won playing BJ would pale in comparison to what the casino would earn from the avg ploppy. Well we all knew Griffin would go down sooner or later in a lawsuit...it was only a question of time. It just goes to show you, WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND!!! The only question is whether or not some other detective agency will try and replace them. Keep your fingers crossed fellows...

-MJ

Casinos in the Catskills
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-Sep-2005 10:46:05 (#14011)

They are talking about opening five casinos in the Catskills (NY State) soon. The racetrack at Monticello already is filled with slots but no table games. (9/6 full pay VP, for anyone who is into that.) Has anyone heard anything about these stores yet? I think it's a Trump project.

Yeah I live close by
Posted by Jay Lee on 13-Sep-2005 15:42:56 (#14012)

If the games are good they AC and CT should get hurt. I don't know when they will have bj though.

NY casinos
Posted by Jay Lee on 13-Sep-2005 15:44:48 (#14013)

I went to Turning Stone and played the dd there $100 minimum and dropped like 3k before I started counting. The next time I play in a NY casino I will make sure all the tens are in the shoe.

Griffin in the news
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Sep-2005 15:06:47 (#14017)

September 14, 2005

Las Vegas company that tracks casino cheats files for Chapter 11

By CHRISTINA ALMEIDA
ASSOCIATED PRESS

LAS VEGAS (AP) - Griffin Investigations, Inc., a company known in the casino world for tracking cheats, has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy after losing a court battle to two gamblers who say they were unfairly marked.

The Las Vegas-based company filed for bankruptcy protection last week, citing assets and debts of between $100,001 and $500,000. The company owes more than $109,000 in legal fees stemming from a July judgment in favor of gamblers Michael Russo and James Grosjean.

The two, who filed a defamation lawsuit against Griffin, were awarded $105,000 in damages and attorney's fees, according to Griffin's Sept. 7 bankruptcy filing. Russo and Grosjean claimed Griffin had false information about them that led to their April 2000 arrest in Las Vegas. Charges were later dropped.

Griffin publishes volumes containing thousands of names and photos that can be accessed online. It uses a sophisticated facial recognition program and sends out alerts notifying casino security when a suspected swindler or card counter is gambling.

A message left for lawyer Stephen Harris, who is representing Griffin in the bankruptcy, was not immediately returned.

Griffin Investigations was incorporated in 1967. Stockholders are listed as Beverly S. Griffin and Robert R. Griffin, who each own 50 percent of the company. Both are also listed as creditors, with the company owing each $74,000 and $50,000 respectively.

Little is known about Griffin Investigations, which guards its operations as closely as its database. Other than clients, only state gambling regulators are allowed to see it.

Court records show the company has six employees and more than 100 clients. The company is not without its critics, who claim the secretive agency is error-prone and labels people without proof.

People are listed in the Griffin for a variety of activities and crimes, such as impersonating casino employees, card bending and stealing chips, coins and purses from other gamblers.

Griffin has helped break up some lucrative card-counting rings, including a team of Massachusetts Institute of Technology students who won millions of dollars at blackjack by keeping track of aces and face cards played.

While technically operating within the law, card counters are not welcome at casinos because they calculate the probability of cards yet to be played to increase their odds of winning.

Geeez ..
Posted by Sun Runner on 15-Sep-2005 15:51:58 (#14018)

> Griffin has helped break up some lucrative card-counting RINGS ..

> While TECHNICALLY operating within the law, card counters ..

What are ya gonna do?

No kidding!
Posted by Sonny on 15-Sep-2005 17:47:06 (#14020)

> It uses a sophisticated facial recognition program and sends out alerts
> notifying casino security when a suspected swindler or card counter is
> gambling.

Those pesky swindlers. Damn them!...I mean, US!

>...including a team of Massachusetts Institute of Technology students who won
> millions of dollars at blackjack by keeping track of aces and face cards
> played.

Oh, is that how they did it? I thought they were counting cards and shuffle tracking. I guess I'm just an idiot.

-Sonny-

So yas catch a coupla snap cheats, gives'em whatfer & get sued?
Posted by Anon on 15-Sep-2005 22:10:37 (#14025)

Next time, just whack'em!

Bastards!
Posted by Big Cowboy on 17-Sep-2005 07:19:52 (#14030)

Chicken Dumbasses! They couldn't walk the walk. When they had to show how good they were, they couldn't. And then they declare bankruptcy to flee like a bunch of drunk dickheads on one night stands.

* Complimentary Invitation to the Halloween Blackjack Ball *
Posted by Viktor Nacht on 15-Sep-2005 16:14:30 (#14019)

</a>Dear Friends,

Viktor Nacht and Max Rubin ghoulishly invite you to join them on Saturday, October 29th from 8PM-Midnight in Las Vegas for the first annual Halloween Blackjack Ball. Thanks to the generosity of this year's sponsor, the new Worldwide Blackjack Tour, admission is complimentary for blackjack players and their significant others.

In attendance will be a mix of blackjack VIPs, celebrities, authors, as well as many professional and serious recreational players. There will be music, drinks, activities, socializing, and several humorous surprises.

The center of festivities will be Ringmaster Max Rubin's Greatest Games on Earth, where various players and teams will compete in a variety of blackjack challenges, ranging from skill tests and mini tournaments to community "grudge matches" between sites and rivals.

Producers from the WBT will be on-hand filming the challenges and overall event, as well as scouting for new players for the tour. Appearance on camera will be completely optional and easy to avoid.

The event is open to the entire blackjack playing community, but space is limited and will go quickly, so please RSVP ASAP by visiting <A HREF="http://www.HalloweenBlackjackBall.com" TARGET="_blank">www.HalloweenBlackjackBall.com </a></a> for more information and then click on "Tickets" to reserve your space.

Come without a costume or disguise at your own risk!

Good Screams,

P.S. Special thanks to Eliot for letting me post my announcements and invitation here, much appreciated. After we get the guest list in order I'll be back solicit competitors to "represent" CC.com.

You should raid a casino
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 16-Sep-2005 13:11:56 (#14026)

Wouldn't that be funny, if a bunch of counters from the party completely filled up a BJ pit or two somewhere, and everyone lets the dogs out at once. What are they going to do, shut down the casino?

Damn Straight!
Posted by Viktor Nacht on 16-Sep-2005 15:32:28 (#14027)

I have no doubt their will be roving bands of costumed counters making hits up and down the street with absolutely no regard for moderation of camouflage.

I do have to have give props that this has been done during the annual BARGE for I don't know how many years.

Good Cards,

What percentage of counters are any good?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Sep-2005 03:53:20 (#14028)

Wow did I meet a bad one this week. Trying to beat an 8D game with a 1:4 spread and not using any advanced plays. I even saw him blow a BS play and fail to get an insurance bet down on a count equivalent to a High-Low +10 !

That's right, +10. The dealer had the BJ too. The other counter and I were both shaking our heads in amazement at how high the count went. Oh man I was spreading like a drunk church girl at Bible camp. Didn't have much luck on that shoe, but I got the cut card off him and was able to cut a few cards back into play, count went up to an equivalent +7 for the next shoe and I scored big. This guy lost all his money, I'm whispering the plays to him but he wouldn't listen. I finished the night up 40 units.

So what percentage of the counters have you seen are playing a viable game? From what I've seen, it can't be more than half. The problem is usually not getting down the big bets when called for.

Are you sure?
Posted by Big Cowboy on 17-Sep-2005 07:16:39 (#14029)

How can you be sure he was a counter if he was blowing plays left and right and BS plays too? Sounds like a drunk ploppy to me.

Come again.
Posted by Sun Runner on 17-Sep-2005 08:40:36 (#14031)

You're playing with 'another counter' at the table? Did you guys look like the June Taylor dancers?

And you were whispering the plays to this moron?

Geeez.

learning to count
Posted by Victoria on 17-Sep-2005 11:07:39 (#14032)

Learning to count is kind of like making your high school varsity team.
Did you have the proper preperation (basic strategy and counting basics) to advance as a starter?
Will you spread enough, learn enough indices to advance to play in college?
Will you refine everything to near perfection including an act that can play at high bet levels and advance enough to be able to turn pro?

I think you just a bench warmer on the high school team. There are alot more high school players than college and even fewer at pro, kind of a negative progression.

Victoria

I'm sorry.
Posted by Sun Runner on 18-Sep-2005 10:41:03 (#14037)

What?

typing too fast
Posted by Victoria on 18-Sep-2005 11:52:23 (#14038)

Sunrunner

In typing my message I left out three key words that may have well changed the meaning.

I did not mean that you or automatic monkey were the so called "bench warmer"
I had meant to say that you (AM) had just run into a bench warmer. But by leaving out those few words I screwed it all up.

Sorry

Victoria

Re: I'm sorry
Posted by Sun Runner on 18-Sep-2005 12:13:34 (#14039)

No apology needed ..

I did quit warming the bench some time ago, but I'm a long way from playing on Sundays! Although, I am going to try and knock off a little positive EV later today.

wannabes
Posted by stainless steel rat on 18-Sep-2005 20:54:47 (#14041)

The world is full of 'em. I know "computer professionals" trained at some fly-by-night training center that think they are now "programmers" or "systems analysts". In reality they are not capable of getting thru the first CS programming course at major universities.

I have seen this in other fields as well. "Learn electronics in only 60 days and set up your own highly profitable TV repair center." Etc.

Card counting is no different. You become a real counter when you finally realize that (a) you don't win more hands/sessions than you lose; (b) you will have horrible losing streaks; (c) you will get your clock cleaned on +10 true counts; (d) you will get three snappers in a row in negative counts and it is not something to moan about; (e) you will see multiple consecutive shuffles where the TC tanks and stays tanked until the next shuffle. When I see a counter claiming to win 9 of every 10 sessions, I suspect "he has won 9 of the only 10 sessions he has played, and he is way out on the right side of the mean... (f) new counters think they are invincible, experienced counters know their advantage is very fragile.

You really become a good counter when you start to question whether such a thing as a good counter exists, and suddenly you notice "hey, bad stuff is happening, but I am still winning overall."

Safe place
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Sep-2005 11:47:55 (#14033)

This was a place where you couldn't get busted for AP if you tried, not at my betting level, so I wasn't too worried. Besides, I don't walk away from a good count no matter who or what is at the table. Being I Wong out I'm never at a table for more that a couple of shoes anyway. And no one at the table including the dealer understood any English at all so we could speak openly, as long as we didn't speak in Vietnamese. Welcome to the East Coast!

re: aut. mon.
Posted by jblaze on 18-Sep-2005 17:01:20 (#14040)

wasnt it you who told me i couldnt flat bet black wonging in and out for more than 20 mins at fwoods?

Wasn't me
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Sep-2005 12:39:28 (#14047)

You can do pretty much whatever you want at Foxwoods. Although, I'm no expert on playing black, maybe they do turn on some heat at that level. Probably the best way to play black on those games is to bet behind someone else. Splits on backline bets are optional. Example: I've got my $15 down, you come up and bet $300 behind me on a good count. We get 8,8, dealer has 9. I split, put down another $15, you can either put down another $300 (which of course you won't) or pick one of the 8's to put your existing $300 behind.

Do you (or anybody) know by how much those backbetting privileges would affect the HE for the BS player? *NM*
Posted by Pet's-Pet on 19-Sep-2005 16:23:11 (#14051)

re
Posted by jblaze on 19-Sep-2005 20:26:23 (#14058)

you want to play the hand correctly. letting an idiot decide your playing strategy isnt compensated by the fact that you can chose not to split if he does. if the counts up and he hits an 8 against a 10 getting an 8 and he's playing BS then he is costing you EV when he hits again. why on earth would I play behind someone when seats are available? and why would I play black behind someone betting $25, looks a little strange. and if i were betting $300 with 88 vs 9 I would most likely be surrendering since that bet is above the play index.

You really want to do this behind another counter
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Sep-2005 22:36:19 (#14062)

If you can find a perfect BS player it's not so bad, but the split plays don't come up often enough to be able to tell if a player knows them all by watching. I think there are also a few splits in there that are not part of BS that are desirable if the backline better doesn't have to split. And you have to make it look like you're disagreeing with the seated player. So you really want someone who knows what is up to do this with.

Here's a way you can make it work with a 3 player team. One player can be completely unskilled, a pretty girl would work best. Make her up a Basic Strategy card, but instead of the normal plays give her one with the rider-spilt-optional plays at or above the count at which the BP is coming to the table. She's flat betting and so is the caller who is also at the table. When the BP gets called in, he wants to impress this ostentatiously sexy chick so he drops a pumpkin behind her like it was loose change. "Do you feel lucky sweetie? Here, let me feel you to make sure, heh, heh, heh..." Wear enough gold and this will play on a Saturday night at the 'Woods.

Interesting idea, Thanks. *NM*
Posted by Pet's-Pet on 20-Sep-2005 15:48:43 (#14064)

this would
Posted by stainless steel rat on 22-Sep-2005 10:36:10 (#14081)

scare me.

I played at a midwest casino a year or two ago. Shoe game, crowded, probably should have just bailed out. Was in town for a quick business trip, will probably not go back there for years. As a result, I was spreading pretty wildly, with no one really noticing. Then someone reaches over my shoulder (in a fairly decent + count where I had $100 out (this was a five buck table, I was spreading 1-20) and he plunks down 10 blacks. I had not seen this before. I looked quizically at the dealer, he shrugged and said "he can do that if you do not object." I said "OK" and we won on a double-down 11 vs 10. Couple of hands later it happens again. Couple of hands later a third time. Couple of hands later I got "the tap" and as I was escourted out, I was told "we don't appreciate team play here, we saw your big player betting from behind you and we won't tolerate that."

Problem was, I had never seen this guy before in my life. :)

So there is a bit of danger in someone "back-betting" with you, because if you think about it, it is the ideal team play when things are crowded.

The problem there was...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-Sep-2005 14:43:21 (#14087)

...he wasn't "your" BP. You weren't getting a share of his profits but he was ruining your good time, because they were willing to tolerate your action but not his.

Now if you really were a team, you'd be playing crazy at low stakes so you'd be ID'ed as a ploppy, then when the BP comes in you just happen to make the right high-count plays. A girl in that position would work best because the BP would have a reason why it appears he's betting behind her other than that he wants to get a piece of her really nice... count!

Try to find someone with fat shoes who seems to move his toes a lot. *NM*
Posted by Anon on 20-Sep-2005 12:29:16 (#14063)

I recall...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Sep-2005 20:39:53 (#14060)

... that it decreases the house edge by 0.20-0.25% in a DAS game. It also reduces the standard deviation because the BP is putting less money on the table. So it's a pretty powerful thing. But it's not fair to call it Basic Strategy, because you need additional plays that differentiate between an offensive and defensive split.

backbetting privileges
Posted by Andy Noone on 19-Sep-2005 22:20:03 (#14061)

When the dealer's up card is 2, the trick would work for 2's, 3's, 6's, and 7's. Here are the other dealer up cards and pairs for which the backbettor would put the bet on one card: 3 (2,3,6,7); 4 (6); 7 (2,3,6,7); 8 (2,3,6,7,8); 9 (2,3,6,7,8,9); 10 (2,3,6,7,8,9); and Ace (2,3,6,7,8,9). If the regular player made all these splits, I estimate the backbettor's house edge would drop by .00196 (that is, from about 0.5% to about 0.3%.) But, when the regular player only makes those splits which are basic strategy, I get a drop in backbettor's HE of .00086.

Brief AC trip report
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Sep-2005 04:07:01 (#14042)

Retrocalcaneal bursitis. It's a painful inflammation at the back of the heel, brought on by my weightlifting routine. Not a good time to go off on a game research trip, but what better way to spend a weekend than limping around in agony on a filthy boardwalk.

As soon as I came into the city blocks I knew something was wrong with this place. A young male street person made eye contact with me from a streetcorner. He was wearing a key on a string around he waist. He turned around, held the key against his backside, made a turning motion with it as he smiled at me over his shoulder. Ah yes, he's offering me the 'key to the city'! Disgusted as I was by this proposition, the most disgusting sights were yet to come.

As non-encouraging as my trip report was from last Christmas time, playing conditions have gotten even worse in Atlantic City. No apparent opportunities on the 6:5 SD games, they all use autoshufflers. If you wanted to attempt to play them straight up you can't because they are always filled with ignorant gamblers. Most of the Double Exposure games have been pulled out and replaced with "Double Attack" BJ, which is just like Spanish 21 but with a sidebet. The crowds are oppressive as ever, 24 hours a day. Worst of all, the single-pass shuffle which existed in the city is now gone.

I didn't spend too much time playing, wanted to look everywhere for something good first. There is a VP machine in town with a 100.7% return so I spent a few hours abusing it, enough to get myself some food comps. I hit a SF on it and that covered my trip expenses.

The best game I found to play for counting was still at the Hilton. The Hilton is way at the edge of the casino area, it kind of gets overlooked by the crowds. 6D, decent pen, reasonable table limits and friendly staff. Still, hardly worth a trip to play. I finished the day up 3 units in 4 hours (plus my VP win) and counted my blessings, could hardly walk by that point.

I can't overemphasize what a terrible destination this place is for a counter looking for a road trip. There are no longer any redeeming features, and unless you live right in town, no reason to play there.

Most shocking was the condition of the city. It was worse than I've ever seen it before, and I've seen bad. Something is going on down there. On the sidestreets drug sales and prosty were going on openly in broad daylight, I swear to you, 200 feet from a marked police cruiser. Street people walking around with neurological symptoms, either zombified or with the animated hand motions associated with brain damage from drugs. I wouldn't be willing to walk anywhere in that city other than the Boardwalk anymore, and even that is ugly late at night. Donald Trump should be ashamed to have his name on three casinos in this city.

What about Borgata?
Posted by MJ on 19-Sep-2005 11:29:28 (#14046)

I hear Borgata has 6 decks with the typical AC rules and 75% penetration. Why didnt you play over there? That seems like a decent(but not great) game.

-MJ

Not as good
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Sep-2005 15:40:43 (#14048)

All AC casinos have more or less the same rules (some differ on the number of splits allowed) and none of them have LS or RSA like the good Strip rules. Borgata is OK, but it is very popular and extremely crowded with high table mins. You can get 6D with 1.25-1.5D pen at the Hilton with less crowding.

One advantage to the Borgata is that they use all autoshufflers, which gets you more hands per hour, but it also prevents you from doing other things.

borgata
Posted by jblaze on 19-Sep-2005 15:46:50 (#14049)

about half the bj tables in main pit are nMDSE... go on a thurs-sat evening and expect to see $100-$6000 tables on the MAIN floor with people in line waiting to throw their money away. they protest when you insure others hands. penetration highly dealer dependent, and its not like you have much of a choice with no open seats. and you feel badly for the waitresses prostituting themselves to earn the extra buck from the drunken old scumbags.

some weren't even ploppies
Posted by Jay Lee on 19-Sep-2005 18:27:28 (#14055)

One guy asked me if he should hit a 5 or six against a ten with a thousand dollar bet up pulled 21 and gave me a couple hundred and left. This other guy that was there to play poker had a few thousand and was betting $200 a hand, asking me for advice like why hit 15 vs. a 7. He won a few thosand and gave me a couple hundred like the other guy except this time I kept it, the previuos time I gave him a hundred back.

Revised saying: "If you visit a website like this one and can't figure out who the PLOPPY is...
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Sep-2005 19:08:07 (#14068)

... its YOU! zg

At least
Posted by Jay Lee on 22-Sep-2005 16:47:14 (#14090)

I didn't go to jail on purpose and dress up as a woman like you!

??? *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 24-Sep-2005 14:19:39 (#14115)

Not true
Posted by Jay Lee on 19-Sep-2005 18:10:20 (#14053)

There is a pit witrh hand shuffle but they start at $25 minimum. Unless you can track it you need like 25 thousand as a br.

Rita's a comming and she is nasty
Posted by Learning to count on 19-Sep-2005 09:56:17 (#14044)

Now I know I am not going Vegas this fall with this pain in my arse storm coming in my back yard! Anyone wanna buy a wet Black jack table?????

Not so bad
Posted by Sonny on 19-Sep-2005 10:56:47 (#14045)

> Now I know I am not going Vegas this fall with this pain in my arse storm
> coming in my back yard! Anyone wanna buy a wet Black jack table?????

I'd still rather play at your place than at Harrah's!

-Sonny-

So how was Rita?
Posted by Mayor on 21-Sep-2005 22:22:07 (#14073)

I looked at www.weather.com and they clocked you with a max 41 MPH wind gust. At least, that's where you used to live...

Table games at G2E -- Sept 12-15, 2005 in Las Vegas
Posted by Mayor on 19-Sep-2005 15:49:08 (#14050)

Here are the *new* table games that I looked at while I visited G2E last week.

Twenty-Won (blackjack side bet – Tech Art, inc.)
The customers are limited to a $1 wager on the side. The payouts are based on the player having a 20 and the dealer showing a certain card as his up-card. It is similar to Royals, but has a very high payout table (when the player's cards have the same suit and rank, and the dealer's up card is that same suit/rank). Very volatile. A good promotional bet.

As Easy As 1-2-3 (table game – Gaming Concepts)
From the description: "What game offers better odds than Blackjack, is easy to learn, has great social interaction and the possibility of playing Blackjack and never busting, or that other players' decisions never affect your hand?"

Seven (table game – Gaming Concepts)
I did not look at this game. "… Players compete against each other, and not the house, in a race for a share of the pot. Each player tries to win Seven more hands than they lose to become the winner."

Flat Line Holdem (table game – Gaming Concepts)
I did not look at this game. A holdem-poker table game. "Players use their two hole cards and the five community cards on the "Flat," and their two hole cards and the five community cards on the "Line," to make the best poker hand they can both ways; one on the Flat and one on the Line. The best hand on the Flat and the best hand on the Line each win half the game pot."

Fast Cash Jack (table game – Gaming Concepts)
I did not look at this game. "A fast paced poker game using Blackjack rules. Players ante, each are dealt a Blackjack hand, plays out the house hand, player who win move to the next round. Last man standing wins the pot. 5% house rake.

No Push Pai Gow (table game – Gaming Concepts)
I did not look at this game. "Traditional Pai Gow Rules with No Commissions and No Pushes – after the initial deal of the cards, one card from the remaining four is dealt to a box marked "Players" and another card is dealt to a box marked "Banker". The Dealer then turns over the two tie-breaker cards. If the Player's card is a higher rank than the Banker's card, the Player will win the Pai Gow pushes. Otherwise, the Banker wins the Pai Gow pushes.

Panama Poker (table game – Gemaco)
A combination of the Pairs Plus bet at 3cp (slightly different pay scale) with traditional Pai Gow. One thing it has going for it is the nicest layout (on expensive woods, multi-level) of any game.

Champion Poker (table game – Gaming Entertainment, Inc)
Yet another no-limit Hold'em clone game, kind of like Baccarat. "Place equal wagers on both the 5 card bonus and the Texas Hold'em squares. Players may choose to bet on their own hand or the dealer hand, as in Baccarat." There is much more to it – a chance to fold or play (you have to match your bet). Etc. The mandatory side bet creates the house edge.

2 Way Monte (table game – Gaming Entertainment, Inc).
"It's up to you to create your two best 3-card poker hands out of six cards to beat the Dealer's one 3 card hand where the dealer does not need to qualify." So here is the problem. You get 6 cards, the dealer gets 4 cards. The dealer makes his best 3cp hand out of the four cards. You make your best 2 hands from the 6 cards. There is the usual ante and play bet. Both of your hands have to beat the dealer hand in order to win, otherwise you lose the wager.

Ultimate Texas Hold'em (table game – ShuffleMaster, Inc)
Yet another no-limit Hold'em clone game. Make equal bets in the Ante and Blind circles. You will then receive two cards. (There is also a Trips bonus bet – usual 8% house edge). When you get your two hole cards, you can either check or bet 3x or 4x your ante. The dealer then reveals the three-card flop. If you haven't already made a Play bet, you have a choice. Check or bet 2x your Ante. The dealer then reveals the final two community cards. If you haven't already made a Play bet, you have a final choice: fold or bet 1x your Ante.

Double Attack Blackjack (table game with a side bet, Nu Games)
A blackjack clone game. Pays even money on BJ and remove all 10s from the deck. In return, insurance pays 5-2, it has all the fun of SF-21 (you can do just about anything, anytime), and allows you to double after the dealer deals himself his first card (and before you receive any cards). A nice idea, and seems to be competitive with SF-21 and 6:5 and BJ Switch and Xtreme 21 and everything else already out there. However it is already at Taj Mahal, Trump Plaza, Showboat, Caesars AC, Trump Indiana, Resorts AC & Rio LV.

Quick Seven (table game, Innovative Gaming, Inc.)
A baccarat style game where you try and hit until you get 7 without going over 7 (face and aces count 1, all other cards count their value). The dealer must hit until he has 5, 6, or 7.

Five Card Flash Poker (table game, Progressive Gaming, Inc.)
Yet another Hold'em clone. From their flyer, with the case-sensitivity they chose. "Two five card poker hands; FIVE CARDS to the "BANKER" AREA and FIVE CARDS to the "PLAYER" AREA. The BEST POKER HAND WINS! Casino customers can wager on either PLAYER or BANKER; both carries a 2.88% "house advantage." (The house gets its edge because a hand that is not at least K high loses to the house). There is a dumb side bet called a "Prosper Bet." You have to make your bet before the cards are dealt, like Baccarat.

Progressive Texas Hold'Em (table game, Progressive Gaming, Inc.)
Yet another Hold'em clone. From their flyer. "Two Cards to the each Player (sic). Two Cards to the Dealer. Five Community Cards (used by both Players and Dealer). The best five-card poker hand wins. Each player's wagers (ante, flop, turn and river) are made before each round of cards are dealt. The dealer does not view their cards until each player's hand is completed. Player's winning hands are paid even money on the Flop, Turn and River wagers. Ante is paid (even money) only when Player wins with a "flush" or better (house edge)." There is a side bet, a progressive jackpot.

Blackjack Dice (table game, Casino Dice Gaming, inc).
A blackjack like game played with dice. The idea was nice. Roll dice (two) repeatedly to get close to 21 without going over. Dealer then roles a single dice with the numbers 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, bust on it. Has potential, with craps and blackjack like ideas in combination. Had a number of side bets (craps like) that would be very rare. For example, you could wager that the roller would make 21 by rolling 7-7-7, or that he would bust in two rolls (which must be 12-12, 12-11, 12-10, 11-12, 11-11, or 10-12). These bets had huge odds.

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#14052)

No heat
Posted by Jay Lee on 19-Sep-2005 18:11:24 (#14054)

I was wonging out at the table and waiting for a neural to good count at the table sitting there and nothing happened.

Feedback
Posted by Mayor on 19-Sep-2005 18:28:10 (#14056)

>Someone else hit a 12 against 14 and cost me a couple hundred dollars

Wrong. What other people do at the table, for whatever reason, has no long term effect on your winning or losing. How about the time you had 12, the player hit, and you won? I guess you forgot about all of those.

Mr. Lee, you need to read my book before you post again about blackjack (or you play again). Your posts do not show your best side.

--Mayor

okay
Posted by Jay Lee on 19-Sep-2005 18:59:19 (#14057)

link me.

Shameless book promotion -
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Sep-2005 17:50:19 (#14065)

Mayor: "Mr. Lee, you need to read my book before you post again about blackjack."

Well...
Posted by Mayor on 21-Sep-2005 18:04:12 (#14066)

... not exactly shameless. Shameless would be plugging my book in such a manner on a site that I do not own and manage 8-)

That said, I just checked out my sales figures, and I have made my money back on the publication of my book, something I never really thought would happen.

It's time to offer my book for 1 penny less than you can buy it on Amazon. I'll be doing that soon.

--Mayor

what is the name of your book?
Posted by Jay Lee on 22-Sep-2005 16:46:03 (#14089)

Blackjack Zone?

Yes
Posted by suicyco maniac on 22-Sep-2005 18:15:05 (#14091)

The Mayors book is titled "The Blackjack Zone" and if you look to the left of your screen you should be able to see it.

Beyond Counting for sale *LINK*
Posted by jblaze on 19-Sep-2005 20:27:32 (#14059)

up for grabs, reserve free

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6563363737

Limited time sale on "The Blackjack Zone"
Posted by Mayor on 21-Sep-2005 18:34:41 (#14067)

The Blackjack Zone is on sale at a price that's a whopping 2 cents cheaper than Amazon.com, through October 5, 2005. All copies purchased through this sale will be signed by the author (unlike the Amazon.com copies).

If you've been putting off buying "The Blackjack Zone", now is a great time to take advantage of this one-time special price.

--Mayor

Fortune's Formula: BJ, Thorp, Wall St., & Milken *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Sep-2005 20:13:23 (#14070)

Playing blackjack in Manhattan

Washington Examiner| September 19 '05

-------------
"Fortune's Formula: The Untold Story of the Scientific Betting System that Beat the Casinos and Wall Street," by William Poundstone \ Hill and Wang, $27
-----------------

By Robert Ferrigno

William Poundstone is a prodigious researcher of the odd but interesting. His previous books include "Big Secrets" and "Bigger Secrets," in which Poundstone delves into Colonel Sanders' super-secret herbs and spices (mostly pepper and MSG) that make KFC an international brand and whether Walt Disney's cryogenically preserved body is really in a hidden room of Snow White's castle. (Alas, it's not.)

"Fortune's Formula," however, is a much more ambitious undertaking, a sweeping historical account of underpaid Massachusetts Institute of Technology whiz kids turning probability and information theory into a cash machine. It's populated by mean-street gangsters, Wall Street hustlers, Rudolph Giuliani, Michael Milken and two ego-mad Nobel Prize-winning economists whose hubris precipitated the biggest hedge-fund bailout in history.

The story starts in the early 1960s, when two MIT professors, Ed Thorp and Claude Shannon, decided to test their mathematical insights. What better laboratory than Las Vegas, a multibillion-dollar city built on a 3 percent house advantage? Being true scientists, Thorp and Shannon took their wives, their computations and a street-smart gambler named Manny Kimbell to Sin City for field research. Counting cards in blackjack was relatively easy for Thorp, who had a photographic memory and he and Shannon used the risk-management betting theory proposed by a Bell Labs colleague, John Kelly, to maximize their profits at roulette. (They had actually practiced on a roulette wheel set up in Shannon's basement.)

This is great, gritty stuff, with vivid characterizations, danger of discovery and the beautiful discontinuity of these two brilliant naifs being led through Vegas by Kimbell, a well-connected fellow who first met the professors when he drove up to Thorpe's modest home in a powder-blue Cadillac. Kimbell, of course, arrived with two young and beautiful blondes. The blondes, of course, wore mink.

After burning through Las Vegas, and causing the inevitable casino backlash that made card counting ever more difficult, the professors segued into the biggest casino of them all: Wall Street. Here, they apply John Kelly's risk-management formula, which Poundstone describes as "Fortune's Formula" (G-max = R, where G-max is the gamblers' maximum rate of return and R is the rate of transmission of inside information, whether legal or illegal). Honest money managers used the formula to assess risk. Boesky and Milken used inside information for much of their stock gains and went to prison for it and those two Nobel Prize winners who ran the Long Term Capital Management hedge fund ignored the formula, over-leveraged their financial bets and almost brought down the U.S. economy. Kelly, Thorp and Shannon became wealthy, with Shannon's personal stock portfolio averaging a 28 percent annual return over 30 years, better than Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway fund.

With its tales of big money, colorful characters, RICO act prosecutions, Russian mafia and chapters titled "Welcome to the World of Sleaze," "Why Money Managers Are No Good" and "The Random Walk Cosa Nostra," "Fortune's Formula" should have been a compelling read. But too often Poundstone tacks away from the most interesting part of the story - the people - and spends page after numbing page on charts and graphs showing the intricacies of bond trading and the philosophical feuds of economists. An excerpt: "Bernoulli's function' refers to a logarithmic utility function. As reported by Latane, Savage said that the geometric mean criterion is best for people who have a logarithmic valuation of money and it's 'approximately valid' for everyone else."

Got that? If so, please write and tell me what it means.

The publisher of "Fortune's Formula" must have noticed this, because the jacket mimics a Vegas craps/blackjack layout with chips stacked artfully. In a you-may-already-be-a-winner economy, the book is evidently being touted as a get-rich manual with a secret formula. This approach may sell books, but it will leave many readers disappointed.

Robert Ferrigno's ninth novel, "Prayers for the Assassin," will be published in February.

Card Counters Get Heave-Ho
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Sep-2005 20:46:21 (#14071)

CONNECTICUT NEWS
---------------------
Odds Are Card Counters Get Heave-Ho
Casinos Ever Vigilant To Toss Crafty Bettors
---------------------
September 16, 2005
By RICK GREEN, Courant Staff Writer

LAS VEGAS -- There was the time Johnny Chang showed up at a casino here dressed as a woman, trying to slide up to the blackjack tables without being noticed.

Chang, part of the famous team of blackjack players from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology that ravaged casinos for a time during the 1990s, is among the best of the "card counters," gamblers who know how to beat the house because they watch every card.

They are organized, methodical and, as this well-known Chang story illustrates, willing to do whatever it takes to get a seat at a blackjack table. These days, casinos keep a close watch on card counters, monitoring them with video cameras and compiling computer dossiers on them.

"They might play in Connecticut one weekend, and then they are in Atlantic City the next, and then they are overseas," said Dave Rapp, a former private investigator who now is vice president of security for Biometrica, a company that provides security and intelligence services to casinos.

Card counters aren't cheaters. It's not illegal to do what they do, keeping track of the high-value and low-value cards played so they know when to place a large bet. But casinos like to do everything they can to drive them out, including asking them to leave or excluding them outright.

The cheaters who use high-tech, illegal gadgets to foil slot machines or small cameras and other devices to count cards obviously aren't welcome on the gambling floor.

But it's a little-known side of the gambling world that the casinos also don't want players who are too good.

Consultants at this week's Global Gaming Expo meeting in Las Vegas said the explosion of casino gambling across the country has created fresh opportunities for organized card-counting groups.

With dozens of members, the groups are actively working U.S. casinos, said Charlie Guenther, a security and intelligence consultant.

"They are in paradise," Guenther said. "In the U.S., we probably have six premiere card-counting groups. It is a business."

"They have homes and condos in different parts of the country. They have an incredible understanding of math and how it equates to playing the game of blackjack," he said. "They can track every single card and tell when it is a favorable time to place bets."

Douglas L. Florence, a card counter who now teaches seminars on how to recognize a pro, said casinos have no choice but to watch out for these players because they take too much of the house's money.

With sophisticated cameras that track every game and every player, it's possible to target a blackjack game where it looks like a card counter is in action, Florence said. Usually, it's a game where the house is losing big time.

"We go after the guys out there mining the properties. [Casinos] have the right to refuse service," said Florence. "As a business, we just can't afford to have that type of player."

paranoia and greed
Posted by Victoria on 21-Sep-2005 22:53:46 (#14074)

I have said it before. Want to be rich, forget cardcounting. Just come up with something that appeals to the fear, paranoia and greed of casinos and the money comes rolling in. At G2E, that is exactly what they are selling. There is a counter hiding behind every slot machine just waiting to pounce on your game.
Victoria

different perspective
Posted by stainless steel rat on 21-Sep-2005 23:00:37 (#14075)

Notice who is spreading the rumors that we are "hitting the casinos in droves, taking their money, raiding their vaults, beating their tables, raping their women (well, maybe not raping their women)." It is the security a**holes themselves. They are building up a huge threat, that only _they_ can protect the casinos from.

Sound familiar?

Can you spell Griffin?

Now Biometric?

These moronic casino operators are letting the foxes guard the henhouse, and they are paying these foxes a fortune to keep one mangy old rat out.

Oops, did I say that? :)

These security people know what they are doing. Scare hell out of the casino execs, the shareholders, the pit critters, and convince 'em only the security companies can protect them from this insidious/ingenious plague of counting scumbags...

I agree but do not forget the rest
Posted by Victoria on 22-Sep-2005 01:49:36 (#14078)

Besides those selling their services there is also those selling their so called table systems, the shufflemasters and bally gaming types.

When you break it down, Griffin, Shufflemaster, whoever, they are all selling the same thing. Fear to the paranoid.

It is an easy sale.

of course
Posted by stainless steel rat on 22-Sep-2005 10:30:03 (#14080)

The casinos are putting up with the shufflemasters and the new and improved shoes, and new and improved dealer training to improve game protection. Everybody is selling "new and improved" things to them (of course, mindplay, RFID, better video resolution for the eye, better recording technology, etc as well). All based on the single premise that "those damned card counters are coming into your casino in masses, using team-concepts, and taking millions out every week. Wouldn't you really prefer to spend just a few million with us, and save those weekly millions that are being stolen by the bastard counters???

And the casino management just eats it up and says "hell yes, in fact, sell me two of everything, I'll stop those bastards and run them to other stores where they can wreck their havoc on them, and not on me."

One of the best "marketing plans" I have ever seen. Based on lots of superstition, and stupidity.

Of course, the casinos still lose to the counters. And now they are losing to the "new and improved" system sellers as well. Serves 'em right. :)

Can't stop the bleeding
Posted by Mayor on 22-Sep-2005 10:58:53 (#14082)

Although card counters don't do much damage, there are other forms of AP that do. That damage bleeds over to the counters, since counters are the easiest to catch. It's more important for lower management to catch people than it is for them to stop the bleeding. This sounds strange, but that's the motivation. If you visit the LVC OR Plaza you will see shoes for their double deck. Do you think those were put there to stop counters?

hmm
Posted by stainless steel rat on 22-Sep-2005 12:59:55 (#14084)

When I played at the plaza in early July, I didn't see any shoes for the DD games I played there. Is this new? The games I played were just normal "pitched" games.. adding a shoe would stop what, hole-carding???

But you are right of course. So long as they "catch somebody, anybody" they justify their miserable jobs... :)

Shoes on their DD!!!
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 22-Sep-2005 14:09:49 (#14085)

Mayor,
When did they start this? It's been a month since my last Vegas run and this wasn't implemented then. Are they dealing face up as well?

-Shaggy

Can't say exactly when
Posted by Mayor on 22-Sep-2005 18:19:05 (#14092)

I was there in early August, no shoes. I was there in mid-September, there were shoes.

Yes, it is face up, S17, DD.

DD shoe face up
Posted by jblaze on 22-Sep-2005 20:59:37 (#14094)

no playing the turn?

3 weeks ago a holecard play cost Plaza $100k...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Sep-2005 02:10:22 (#14110)

... for a few days they started bringing the DDshoe in as a prophylactic measue with big players/winners... then just switched over entirely. zg

At least shoes discourage pref shuffle
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-Sep-2005 14:34:40 (#14086)

When there's a shoe and a cut card the ploppies expect to see that cut card come out and they'll balk if it doesn't happen, so that's an advantage for a counter. Paris/Bally's has been dealing their lousy-pen DD from a shoe, face-up for a while, mid-shoe entry allowed. Can't complain too much.

Griffin says AP's are an "organized crime movement" *LINK*
Posted by LVBear584 on 22-Sep-2005 19:45:49 (#14093)

The gaming industry is under siege from opportunistic scam artists worldwide. Converging on the Internet, these gaming cheaters represent the organized crime movement of the new millennium.

LOL!

I'm thinking pot/kettle/black here... *NM*
Posted by Mayor on 22-Sep-2005 21:40:39 (#14095)

No they don't
Posted by SecurityRisk on 23-Sep-2005 08:58:20 (#14097)

They say cheaters and scam artists. The page you link makes no mention of counters or advantage players.

Is that you, Bev?
Posted by Mayor on 23-Sep-2005 11:40:59 (#14098)

The page says that these groups are "Converging on the Internet." I don't know of any cheating/scam artists that have boards up discussing methods of cheating or scamming casinos. However, there are many sites up discussing counting and advantage play.

Bev honestly believes that APs are cheaters and scam artists. If she doesn't directly say "card counters" then it's even worse by implication.

--Mayor

The article could refer to bonus scammers...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-Sep-2005 12:42:33 (#14100)

...(NOT legit bonus hustlers), or online poker cheats. Honestly that was the first thing I thought of when I read that wording. "Converging on the internet" implies that their target is the internet, i.e., internet gaming sites, not that they are meeting online like we do here.

disagree here...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 23-Sep-2005 13:36:44 (#14102)

Can't imagine this applying to online players. Griffin publishes photos, bios, etc, of players that cheat, or that count cards, or that use other forms of AP. Not sure how Griffin could be used in an online world. So easy to set up phony accounts, phony IDs, etc...

No
Posted by SecurityRisk on 23-Sep-2005 12:53:20 (#14101)

No, this is not Bev. I was just pointing out that the page linked says nothing about AP's. I'm not defending Griffin. I'm a card counter myself. I was just pointing out that the page linked did not say that AP's are an organized crime movement.

"Grifin speak" has alwas lumped cheaters with counters. *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Sep-2005 01:33:00 (#14108)

On the witness stand, Robert Griffin made an idiotic statement that demonstrated his stupidity and dishonesty
Posted by LVBear584 on 23-Sep-2005 11:58:14 (#14099)

"They are cheaters," he said while pointing at the plaintiffs. There is no evidence that these two highly-skilled players have ever cheated, or would need to cheat in order to win. It was an incredibly stupid statement. I think Mr. Griffin's arrogance and pomposity outraged the jury. He is truly a miserable, dishonest, despicable individual.

He is also corrupt...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Sep-2005 01:34:53 (#14109)

... as I have it on good info that he used to extort cheats and counters, allowing them more time/oppty to ply their trade. zg

one more click
Posted by stainless steel rat on 23-Sep-2005 16:01:12 (#14106)

<services>. Counters are _specifically_ mentioned there as in "cheaters and counters"... Which would tend to imply that the first page was talking about the "group" as scam artists...

So this explains it!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Sep-2005 23:27:13 (#14076)

I got flat bet at a CT store this week, before I even bought in. Dirty lousy SOB probably read this article. Now I need a new ID.

?
Posted by Jay Lee on 22-Sep-2005 16:34:58 (#14088)

They threw you out?

Poker question
Posted by Poket Roket on 21-Sep-2005 21:30:57 (#14072)

I know everyone here is a pro at this and I'm just a beginner (and I could post to 2plus2.com, but I am posting here, sorry for the non-blackjack content).

Would you rather have a great hand or be on the button? Here is a hypothetical. For example what hand will win more in the long run, AA under the gun or JT suited on the button?

Just wondering (and this is probably poker 101).

Empirical answer derived from 116,000,000 observed hands
Posted by Anon on 22-Sep-2005 00:28:16 (#14077)

For example what hand will win more in the long run, AA under the gun or JT suited on the button?

At a full, ten-handed, limit Texas Hold'em game:

AA UTG is worth 2.49 big bets

JTs on the Button is worth 0.15 big bets

These are overall expectations, with no regard for number of callers, betting action or any other consideration except position. Ignoring position:

AA is worth 2.32 big bets

JTs is worth 0.15 big bets

Interestingly, JT suited has positive expectation in every position and JT unsuited has negative expect in every position except one ( +0.01 ), the seat before the cut-off, and this is likely sampling error.

Thanks and I must have asked the wrong question
Posted by Poket Roket on 22-Sep-2005 09:50:55 (#14079)

Thanks for running a simulation and giving numbers as results. I guess my question is for the expected value of each seat. I have heard that in a game with a rake only the button has the edge.

Thanks.

That wasn't a simulation.
Posted by Anon on 22-Sep-2005 10:59:46 (#14083)

Those were results from money games (as opposed to tournament) played on a poker site. It is always advantageous to act last.

Legal News: Verdict Against "New" Frontier; no bankruptcy schedules from Griffin *LINK*
Posted by BlackJackHack on 23-Sep-2005 13:41:47 (#14103)

Another win for the good guys - $110k verdict against the New Frontier (I guess "New Frontier" sounds better than the more accurate "Old Dingy Smoky Stinky Frontier") arising from a 2001 detention of a card counter.

I was backed off there in 2002 -- and they did have two security goons, rather dramatically, come up behind me and tell me to step back from the table and put my hands to my side. They didn't backroom me, though. According to the article, they stopped doing that after the 2001 incident.

In an unrelated note, Griffin Investigations asked for an additional 7 days to file its bankruptcy schedules.

At least they learned their lesson!
Posted by Mayor on 24-Sep-2005 11:21:45 (#14111)

>According to the article, they stopped doing that after the 2001 incident.

Unfortunately, there have been ma

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