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Better System
Posted by branmuffin on 24-Oct-2002 22:12:37 (#184)
Mayor and ZG:
You have dissuaded me from pursuing HOII and AOII as possible systems to improve on Hi-Lo.
If I plan to play mixed games in Biloxi..SD DD and 6D shoes should I just use HiLo w/full set of indicies.
Zen UBZ2 look decent,
Ideally I would like to learn a system that has no ace side-count.I would rather not have to do a TC conversion if possible but dont want to lose too much EV.I dont mind using a 2 level count but dont want to sidecount aces.
Balanced or unbalanced.
Any suggestions...should I just stick with Hi-Lo and learn fab18/full indicies??
I dont want to drop down to KO and lose more EV but 20%+EV gain on most advanced system(versus KO, hilo) is not reasonable for my lack of experience
All the gambling stories on here are great .
When I was a freshman at ArizonaState in 1983 i used to play in vegas alot..I meet I guy there who tried to recruit me to play on a holecard team.He got his ass kicked and that was the end of that.
Re: Better System
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Oct-2002 23:14:01 (#185)
I would say Hi-Lo with I-18 and Fab-4, but, if you are playing a game with insurance, add a few more insurance indices, in partcular 14 vs. 9,T,A, and 13 V. T. Also if you have time, add 8 vs. 5/6 to your I-18. Those extra indices will give your game a real power boost.
Start with that, play it for a while, and then you will see if you want something more, but that is plenty powerful. And remember, decent/good penetration is worth a lot more than any system. Search out the good games, and walk away from the poor ones. Find good penetration (first), then on shoes look for games with surrender (second). Everything else follows.
Thanks for your nice words about this site. I wish I had some artistic skills, everything here is just my hacking it out, experimenting, and wishing for the grace of color combinations that don't hurt my eyes.
-Mayor
Re: Better System
Posted by branmuffin on 24-Oct-2002 23:56:53 (#188)
Cool.I think I'll do as you initially advised ..stay with HiLo and work on proficient use of indicies.
The book I first used to learn HiLo was Reveres Blackjack As a Business.
If I want to attempt to be a weebit ambitious and learn 50-100 indicies should I use Revere's indicies or something newer? Wong CV Simulations etc.
It seems Reveres books have gotten mixed reviews and i know they are dated ..
regards Lee
Hey Mayor...ever head up to Jalama? ..thats gotta be the most amazing drive from highway 1 to Jalama state Beach..absolutely beautiful.Lucky you ..great area to live in.
Re: Better System
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Oct-2002 00:53:32 (#190)
For good Hi-Lo indices, you can't do better than Wong's PBJ. I've posted a few on this site as well.
I have never been to Jalama? Where is that? Of course, I get to drive up HW 1 all the time. My favorite stop along the way is the giant Sea Lion refuge, right by Hearst's Castle.
Keep us up to date on your adventures.
--Mayor
Re: Better System
Posted by branmuffin on 25-Oct-2002 01:40:16 (#191)
Mayor:
JalamaBeach is a state park/beach popular with windsurfers and surfers just north of point conception..the demarcation of central/southern coastal california..The Park isnt much but the long ride out to the beach from 101 is spectacular ..rolling golden hills..amazing.It may not be your cup of tea but I have a real wanderlust in me and was amazed by it.
Paste this url for directions only 62 miles:
http://maps.yahoo.com/py/ddResults.py?Pyt=Tmap&tarname=&tardesc=&osd=&newname=&newdesc=&dsd=&newHash=&newTHash=&newErr=&newTErr=&newFL=Use+Address+Below&newaddr=&newcsz=Santa+Barbara%2CCA&newcountry=us&newTFL=Use+Address+Below&newtaddr=&newtcsz=Jalama%2CCA&newtcountry=us&Submit=Get+Directions
Lee
Re: Better System
Posted by CanKen on 25-Oct-2002 19:01:00 (#214)
Hi Mayor:
The answer to this may be obvious, but I am a little confused by your reply to "branmuffin". You suggest adding more insurance indices. Is this what you meant, or was it meant to read surrender indices?
You are right
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Oct-2002 00:52:50 (#222)
No you are right, I mean "surrender" indices, apologies for the typo.
Re: Better System -UBZ and R7
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Oct-2002 02:18:47 (#192)
>>Ideally I would like to learn a system that has no ace side-count.I would rather not have to do a TC conversion if possible but dont want to lose too much EV.I dont mind using a 2 level count but dont want to sidecount aces.<<
-----------
I see the UBZ2 as being one of the finest choices available, and it fits the description of your preferrence - IMO pursuant to the poor Ace-sidecount methodology utilized by most practioners of AO2 and HO2 and the like, as previously recognized, UBZ will perform on par with the harder to employ Aceneutral variety level2, and with the added ease of no TCadjustment! You can also eventually add a TCadjustment "TUBZ2" and achieve a slight imporvement over even TC'd ZEN.
Another easier approach might be for you to switch to Red7 - eventually you can count all 7s +.5 and use an adjusted IRC/starting-deck - then finally add a TCadjustment and 50 or so i#, the end product being a hybred level2 TC'd UB'd system that will perform on par with ZEN and (for most) HO2. In other words, RED7 is the one system tag-set where you can advance from the simplest RC level1 to the hybred level2 "Halve7s" as I call it, without changing counts.
For what its worth, returning to the UBZ, GeoC the developer of that system actually plays his own light version of ZEN wherein 40 or so i# are radically rounded to gradients of 0-5-10 (like the Mayor's Halves, though still TC'd zg
Assorted BJ Questions
Posted by branmuffin on 25-Oct-2002 06:25:51 (#195)
thnx zg
I think I am going to go with HiLo full indicies ..at least 50-100
HiLo is second nature and I dont have a problem with TC conversion but it isnt easy ..the half decks slow me down .Is it possible to round off TC conversions w/HiLo full in 4D and 6D to full decks rather than half decks????
I looked at full indicies of HiLo ..there has gotta be 200 at least.I think i will try to filter out those that are only between TC= -10 and +10 .
One thing that strikes me when I study BJ further is the amazingly high variance.The bankroll requirements seem huge..It seems to me you need a minimum BR of at least 500 avg.bets to avoid ROR.(assuming 90-95% ofROR).
To make a decent hourly rate you gotta risk alot of cheese..This is unlike poker.There seems to be much higher risk in playing BJ professionally.
Hypothetically If I decide to play in games where on average I have a .50%-1.00% edge..good SD DD(rare to find good ones ..penetration is crap) and 6D games and moderate cover(1-4 bet spread in SD 1-6 DD and 1-12 in 6D) and I want to test a small BR of 5K-10K I guess this type of BR will yield very little in hourly earn.Is that right??Like a measly 5 bucks an hour
I am very conservative and know gambling for a living is possible despite what all the naysayers say.I did it for 4 years playin poker and I still play poker.
Bankroll is everything.. Units are everything ..and foremost EV is everything.You gotta have the best of it.But most important of all is grinding out an edge at limits where you are comfortable ..in other words ..being a pussy.That worked for me .No heroics .
Zg When you play bigbet BJ are you playing with the BR or are you hailmarrying it.
I assume not with your statistical bent.
All feedback is helpful.
I think i will attempt a test BR of 10K 1 unit equaling $10.00 average bet around $25.00 ...is that reasonable?
Re: Assorted BJ Questions
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Oct-2002 10:13:07 (#196)
>Is it possible to round off TC conversions w/HiLo full in 4D and 6D to full decks rather than half decks????
Sure, you don't have to do 1/2 decks at all to play a strong game, but towards the end of the shoe you might do a bit of it.
>I looked at full indicies of HiLo ..there has gotta be 200 at least.I think i will try to filter out those that are only between TC= -10 and +10 .
Remember, the negative indices are only used with a min bet out, so are not worth very much. It is MUCH better to learn the positive indices than the negative ones. A range like -3 to 20 will be much stronger for you.
>One thing that strikes me when I study BJ further is the amazingly high variance.The bankroll requirements seem huge..It seems to me you need a minimum BR of at least 500 avg.bets to avoid ROR.(assuming 90-95% ofROR).
To make a decent hourly rate you gotta risk alot of cheese..This is unlike poker.There seems to be much higher risk in playing BJ professionally.
Two words: variance sucks.
>Hypothetically If I decide to play in games where on average I have a .50%-1.00% edge..good SD DD(rare to find good ones ..penetration is crap) and 6D games and moderate cover(1-4 bet spread in SD 1-6 DD and 1-12 in 6D) and I want to test a small BR of 5K-10K I guess this type of BR will yield very little in hourly earn.Is that right??Like a measly 5 bucks an hour
With a 10K BR, and a reasonable Risk-of-ruin of about 5% you can easily earn $30 per hour. With a 5K BR and a low ROR of 1%, you are making minimum wage.
>I think i will attempt a test BR of 10K 1 unit equaling $10.00 average bet around $25.00 ...is that reasonable?
A 10K BR and a 2% ROR, roughly, your bets should go from $10 to 2x$75. Spreading to 2 hands is critically important. But, your bet range depends on the QUALITY of the games you find, the better the game, the larger your max bet.
--Mayor
Re: Assorted BJ Questions
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Oct-2002 14:37:50 (#202)
>> A 10K BR and a 2% ROR, roughly, your bets should go from $10 to 2x$75. Spreading to 2 hands is critically important. <<
--------------------
I agree with the spread BUT NOT with the "critical importance" of spreading to 2hands - the #hands played during +counts is a function of how many others are at the table, as well as other factors - the correct topBet could be 1X$100, 2X$75, or 3X$60, dependent on the other factors.
exampleA- heads-up/2D, the ideal topBet is 1X$100 except for the last round, which then could be the 2-3hand variety.
exampleB- wong shoe 3 other spots in play, the ideal topBet is 3x$60
etc. zg
Re: Assorted BJ Questions
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Oct-2002 14:53:56 (#205)
Spreading to two hands increases EV much more than it increases SD, and thus significantly increases your SCORE (see Schlesinger's Blackjack Attack, 2nd ED). In shoes, your score may go up by as much as 20% by spreading to 2 hands. In this case it is of fundamental importance to your long term EV to play 2 hands.
Spreading to multiple hands in pitch games is much more a function of the number of rounds, and penetration, wanting to encourage the dealer to get as deep into the deck as possible. Card eating also comes into play, increasing your HPR (hands per hour). The question of "to spread or not" is much more subtle in this case.
--Mayor
Re: Assorted BJ Questions
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Oct-2002 15:22:05 (#206)
Did BJA-2 negate the "#hands to play" chart/advice contained in BJA-1? zg
Re: Assorted BJ Questions
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Oct-2002 16:45:20 (#207)
I do not recall seeing this chart in BJA-2nd.
This comment (about mutliple hands in shoe games and the score) was based on work of MathProf at bj21.com in a series of articles called "Scoring the Shoe" which are now in the Green Chip archives at bj21.
Here is a very small tidbit from that post, where you are playing a full bet on 1 spot versus 70% on two spots, giving the SCORE when you Wong in.
Wong: Play 1 spot only 63
Wong: Play 2 spots only 88
He goes on to extensively analyze a number of other scenarios, all of which show the power of 2 hands in Shoes. I am sorry, but I cannot quote this further without the author's permission.
--Mayor
#hands to play?
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Oct-2002 17:14:28 (#208)
I think that the MP SCORING SHOE series, which may also be found at the CCCafe w/o the price of admission, assumed 2-3 other spots in play - the chart in BJA1 shows that, heads-up, for example, the EV is higher for 1-hand play, with 2 other spots in play the EV is higher for 3-hand play, etc.
Part of my camo is the oscillation between playing multi-hands in -counts w/ 1hand in +counts, and then 1hand in -counts and multi-hands in +counts - mixing it up as its called - BUT there is always an optimum #hands to play per round tied to the # of other spots occupied, %pene, and proximity to last-round.
complexity
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Oct-2002 17:24:51 (#209)
Yes, it is a complicated subject, and without going in to all the details here, I would like to ask you to donate the URL to those MathProf articles on CCC, so I can link directly to them from this site.
Thanks for your continuing contributions at a very high level.
--Mayor
why there is a disagreement
Posted by kansas on 25-Oct-2002 17:34:07 (#210)
The BJA optimal number of hands to play question is with other players at the table. How to optimize EV and improve your chances of getting the good cards when others are at the table.
I think the mayor's advice was more of a spread to multiple hands to reduce variance type approach, considering the original posters bankroll and wanting to play to a very low ROR.
Sometimes it might be wise to spread to multiple hands, and sacrifice some EV, to obtain lower variance (or eat cards in negative counts, or get deeper into a deck before a shuffle, etc.)
The BJA study was just considering number of rounds/EV/other players.
Re: why there is a disagreement
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Oct-2002 17:48:54 (#212)
YES, you've clarified the original intent of this thread... and I do use 2hand bets for variance reduction, similar to using pontoons to stabilize a boat. zg
Re: complexity MP's SHOE SCORING
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Oct-2002 17:56:54 (#213)
The subject post is found here -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackjackcardcounterscafe/message/12278
Re: complexity MP's SHOE SCORING
Posted by branmuffin on 25-Oct-2002 22:06:03 (#217)
the art of muti-deck betsizing ..thnx guys for all the food for thought.
MP 'Scoring The Shoes'
Posted by V-man on 03-Nov-2002 17:36:54 (#477)
MP's Scoring The Shoes article is also available at bjmath.com under "What's new/year 2000"
Re: #hands to play?
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Oct-2002 19:59:40 (#215)
BJA2 Page 29 (how many top-bets)-
Alone, one hand
1-2 others, two hands
3-4 others, three hands
Re: Assorted BJ Questions
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Oct-2002 14:28:09 (#200)
**My responses are embedded -
I think I am going to go with HiLo full indicies ..at least 50-100
HiLo is second nature and I dont have a problem with TC conversion but it isnt easy ..the half decks slow me down .Is it possible to round off TC conversions w/HiLo full in 4D and 6D to full decks rather than half decks????
**Are you using a 1/2D or 1D TC calibration? Nevertheless, if TC isn't easy than discard it altogether and use R7 or UBZ.
I looked at full indicies of HiLo ..there has gotta be 200 at least.I think i will try to filter out those that are only between TC= -10 and +10 .
** -4 to +10 is more reasonable.
One thing that strikes me when I study BJ further is the amazingly high variance.The bankroll requirements seem huge..It seems to me you need a minimum BR of at least 500 avg.bets to avoid ROR.(assuming 90-95% ofROR).
** 500-1000 min-bets (units or 'u') is reasonably comfortable, depending on the game conditions and betting technique. Further, you don't need to have it "all at once" - it can be an "installment plan" if you will.
To make a decent hourly rate you gotta risk alot of cheese..This is unlike poker.There seems to be much higher risk in playing BJ professionally.
**On the contrary, the little bit that I know about poker suggests that BJ entails LESS RISK and LESS BR.
Hypothetically If I decide to play in games where on average I have a .50%-1.00% edge..good SD DD(rare to find good ones ..penetration is crap) and 6D games and moderate cover(1-4 bet spread in SD 1-6 DD and 1-12 in 6D) and I want to test a small BR of 5K-10K I guess this type of BR will yield very little in hourly earn.Is that right??Like a measly 5 bucks an hour
**More like $15-75/hr (100hands), but more analysis of the exact nature of each game is required to suggest an optimum approach for each.
When you play bigbet BJ are you playing with the BR or are you hailmarrying it.
**When I am in the higher stakes mode, its usually a reflection of a an interim "joint-bank"(JB) arrangement - typical JB arrangements involve 2-5 counters each holding $5-10k
I think i will attempt a test BR of 10K 1 unit equaling $10.00 average bet around $25.00 ...is that reasonable?
**Yes, with a top bet of $100 or 2x$75 or 3x$60 - your min bets would be -
1D $25 (good)
1D $15 (mediocre)
2D $10
6D $05 (play-all)
6D $10 (wong)
Well Mayor
Posted by Biff on 25-Oct-2002 14:05:01 (#199)
I am again ready to hit the cassino after my extended string of losses. (see old messages) I have put togather my game plan which will require 15 hrs of play per week and will take me 33 weeks to acomplish. Goal is to build a bankroll of $ 30,000 which breaks down to playing 495 hours with an average hourly of approx. $ 60 per hour.
Wish me lock and will keep you updated.
Re: Well Mayor
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Oct-2002 14:35:12 (#201)
Please keep us posted from the trail, I am very interested in your experiences.
If you haven't read "Blackjack Autumn" you would enjoy it in preparation for what you are about to do.
Good luck!
-_Mayor
IF you plan to play LV...
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Oct-2002 14:39:39 (#203)
...you can immediately BOOST your EV 500%, ask me. zg
Re: IF you plan to play LV...
Posted by Biff on 26-Oct-2002 12:12:50 (#228)
At this time Vegas is not in my game plan. There are so many better games around if one is willing to take the time to investigate. Not that I am not interested in your info.
Have you played Mesquite in the last few months. CBJN gives some fairly good numbers for their SD game but am wondering if it is error?
Biff
Re: Well Mayor
Posted by branmuffin on 25-Oct-2002 22:23:30 (#218)
Hey Biff:
Just out of curiosity can you tell me more about your plan of attack?
Bankroll ,games to play,counting system used, bet speads and locale.
It sounds like you need a big BR to make 60 bucks an hour.Are you trying to double up on your current BR?
Good luck and keep everyone informed .The less experinced players on here...lol which only seem to be me want to here the gory details bad and good..
Heat ..huge sessions drawdowns , your mental framework etc.
I am right behind you with a smaller investigative BR of my own.I am going to hit Biloxi/Tunica in a month or so for 500 hours.
regards Lee
Re: Well Mayor
Posted by Biff on 26-Oct-2002 11:09:04 (#227)
Don't want to give out too much info at this point as will be playing in smaller casino areas.
As stated in past posts I play mainly SD games and plan to start out with red units, spreading 1 -5 and increase my unit size as bankroll increases. As unit size increases I will have to lower my spread as to eliminate heat etc. and also spread my action around. ( I use alot of cover from Ian Andersen's "Burning the Tables In Las Vegas", in my play)
A bit of background. I have been a counter since the early 80's and have used Canfield's Master System. This is a balanced count, two level and use side count of aces for betting.
I know that I will receive a lot of flack from math people as to my plan but is based on my past experience and results. My session or trip BR will be 40 plus max bets and this will be my quide to when I can increase my unit size. The final strategy will be playing black, 1-3 or 4 spread and reducing playing time to 10 hours per week.
Enough rambling for now and again I will keep you updated.
Maybe flawed gameplan...
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 12:48:35 (#230)
...because you will be too over-played and burned in the 1D games - 1D games are overrated anyway - and the games you propose will be too congested in any event, so here are some suggestions -
1. Don't start with 5u per'se - gage your min-bet according to the game you are playing (min-bet recomendations provided elsewhere) - you you can afford a trip-stake of $2000 then your minUnit can be $10 in any event.
2. Plan to play a range of games as you find them - 1D (no more than 1 other player/spot) - 2D (wong-out a lot, no more than 2 other players/spots) - 6&8D (wong-in only, no more than 3 others)
3. Plan to do a lot of wong-in/wong-out on the 2-8D games.
Thats for starters.
About Mesquite, it sucks, but a couplae of PRIMO 1-2D games may be found in Paraump, as well as Laughlin, LV, Reno, and the best 1Ds for green-chip+ play is Wendover NV, 100 miles from Salt Lake City.
zg
Re: Maybe flawed gameplan...
Posted by Biff on 27-Oct-2002 07:01:06 (#260)
Thanks for the advise. My plans to start this week end got thumped as had a case of the flu.
I said I was starting with a red 1-5 spread. Meant would be 10 - 50.
Re: Well Mayor NO COVER
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 14:03:44 (#232)
>> ( I use alot of cover from Ian Andersen's
"Burning the Tables In Las Vegas", in my play) <<
--------------------
$60/hr safely on $2k BR? YES!...
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 13:55:55 (#231)
... but only in Vegas IF you know the secret. For ordinary counting I would hold at least $12k to make $60/hr if I wanted to sustain a RoR less than 5% (with no downsizing if the BR tanks). zg
Re: $60/hr safely on $2k BR? YES!...
Posted by branmuffin on 26-Oct-2002 17:44:23 (#238)
I am confused zg...are you saying $60 per hour is only possible in LV with "the secret" or $60 per hour is possible on a 12K BR w/Biffs gameplan or the amended gameplan you have suggested to Biff??
And what the hey is "the secret" ??? shuffle tracking????
This is the second time in 24 hours I have seen you reference LV as secretively much more profitable than other games ..Where does this huge gain in EV come from ??
$60+/hr w/$2k, low risk?
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 18:22:20 (#244)
The $60/hr w/$12k mod'd plan is viable.
The $60+/hr w/$2k mod'd plan is viable, with the "LV secret" and the secret is "couponomy" as suggested in Clarke Cant's marvelous treatise BJTherapy found here -
http://www.bjrnet.com/archive/BlackjackTherapy.htm
Specifically, though Cant doesn't identify the top available coupons that will make a punyBR perform like a "nitrous charged" hot-rod. Those coupons may be found here -
http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com
http://www.casinoperks.com
I wouldn't think of playing LV on $5k or less w/o AT LEAST one of each of the above per day - EV for 6hrs play w/coups and $2k BR = $500, RoR = 5%, maybe?
zg
Re: $60+/hr w/$2k, low risk?
Posted by branmuffin on 26-Oct-2002 18:36:35 (#245)
Ahso ..Yes I understand now..Thanks for the clarification and links.
Could this "couponomy" be used on a more than occasional basis if I had them..like weekly or daily? w/cover at various shifts on rotating schedule of participating casinos?
Sshhhhh!
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 19:02:44 (#247)
>> Could this "couponomy" be used on a more than occasional basis if I had them..like weekly or daily? w/cover at various shifts on rotating schedule of participating casinos? <<
----------------------------
Re: Sshhhhh!
Posted by branmuffin on 26-Oct-2002 19:07:49 (#248)
rofl you too funny
Re: $60/hr safely on $2k BR? YES!...
Posted by Biff on 27-Oct-2002 07:08:05 (#261)
The $60 per hour win rate is projected over the period of 495 hours and would be average. Will be times it will be less, smaller units at the start, and times it will be greater, larger units as bankroll grows.
biff
surrender/any strategies
Posted by lucky on 25-Oct-2002 20:55:01 (#216)
or simply go by the norm of
9,7,10,6vs 9,10,a:9,6,10,5 vs 10.
Re: surrender/any strategies POSTED?
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Oct-2002 23:49:59 (#219)
Aren't the LS#s posted at this site for HiLo and Halves? zg
Re: surrender/any strategies POSTED? NO
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Oct-2002 01:12:48 (#293)
Need the LS#s here, Mr. Mayor zg
Historically, the world's first weable computer...
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 00:23:47 (#221)
... was invented by Thorp and Shannon, for beating roulette. I worked with Harry Fechter Ph.D. of the UNLV Physics Dept, breifly in '78, who already had beta'd a similar unit the size of a city-phonebook - it worked but to my knowledge was never successfully put into play. zg
---------------------------------------------------
From MIT Media Lab "Brief History of Wearables" -
1966 (C) Ed Thorp and Claude Shannon reveal their invention of the first wearable computer, used to predict roulette wheels [MIT] -
The system was a cigarette-pack sized analog computer with 4 push buttons. A data-taker would use the buttons to indicate the speed of the roulette wheel, and the computer would then send tones via radio to a bettor's hearing aid. Though the system was invented in 1961, it was first mentioned in E. Thorp, Beat the Dealer, revised ed. in 1966. The details of the system were later published in Review of the International Statistical Institute, V. 37:3, 1969. Thorp also disclosed a similar system for beating the Wheel of Fortune gambling game in LIFE Magazine, March 27, 1964, pp. 80-91.
Re: Historically, the world's first wearable compu
Posted by computerilliterate on 26-Oct-2002 08:49:34 (#224)
One of those casey computers would be nice if I had an extra 15 thousand dollars lying around, but I think its a felony to use one of those in a casino. right? Of course, if they never know....
On using electronic equipment
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Oct-2002 10:58:16 (#226)
The Casey Computer is old technology, expensive, and very difficult to learn to use.
My advice, don't even think of using such a device in states in which it is illegal (suprisingly, it is still legal in CA, but not for long). If you are going to use one, think low voltage, since many casinos electro-magentic wave detection abilities.
The modern way to use these "devices" is via a cell phone, to an outside partner. I wont say any more about this.
-Mayor
Re: Historically, the world's first wearable compu
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 12:30:53 (#229)
The Caseys and other BJ computers aren't very strong beyong cerebral counting, as Thorp even intimates in his roulette journal. zg
Honesty in BJ
Posted by ZOD on 26-Oct-2002 15:58:01 (#234)
I had a discussion the other evening with a counter friend and the subject turned to dealer mistakes in the player's favor. His contention was that the casinos try to screw us at every opportunity and if they make a mistake, we should take full advantage of it. I'm sure that is a popular sentiment, and I'll admit to keeping a few chips paid to me in error over the years, but a scene I witnessed a couple of years ago has stuck with me and I thought I might share it.
I was playing 6D heads up at TI when a pretty Asian girl sat down and began flat betting $5 hands. She continued for a couple of shoes, never raising her bet, until her red was gone. Then she pulled out a black chip and bet it. The dealer had a 10 up and she was dealt a 6 card 22 which the dealer miscounted as a 21. After turning over another 10 for a 20, he paid her $100 and scooped up the cards. She turned to me and said "Didn't I bust?" Not knowing how to respond, I said that I hadn't been paying that much attention. She then insisted that the dealer (over his objection) pull the discards and recheck her hand. With the floor looking on, a recount confirmed that she had busted and the dealer retrieved the casino's black chip as well as her own. The floor, dealer, and I must have had that "are you an idiot?" look on our faces and when she saw it, she shrugged her shoulders, simply said "karma" and walked away.
Now, I can't say whether this young lady actually believed in some form of karmic retribution or whether she was just plain honest. I can say that it has made me stop and think about greed vs. honesty and the direction of my own moral compass. As advantage players, we brag about how we use our brains and our mental discipline to tilt the odds in our favor. We condemn the casinos for calling us "cheaters." My question is: If we keep ill-gotten gains, aren't we actually cheating? Shouldn't we increase our bankrolls by our wits, and not by petty theft? Or should we cater to the greed and "take the money and run"? My friend and I would be interested in your comments.
Re: Honesty in BJ
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 16:21:39 (#236)
I saw a similar situation at FitzG's awhile back - two tourist gals sat down to my right and one ponies up a $100 bill whereupon the dealer proceeds to breakout $100 in reds for each of them - whereupon the firt gal looks at her friend and then the dealer and whines, "she didn't put up any money, why did she get chips!" I chuckled and said to the attendent PC "Do NOT rob a bank with this girl!" and then the whiner said to me sternly "we are only here to get lucky!" zg
Mixed sentiments
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Oct-2002 16:49:52 (#237)
If you read my essays, you will find that I advocate fair play. But, this has two contingencies:
1) You are not playing to win (you are a basic strategy player).
2) You will be returning to the same casino, so you want to establish a long term relationship for good comps.
On the other hand, when I play "for real" I do everything in my power to encourage dealer errors.
Here are examples of things I have actually done:
1) The 5+ card busts me at 22 and I pound the table and say "all right, 21!!!"
2) The dealer makes a difficult 5+ card 20/21 and I pound that table and say "yeah! bust!!"
3) The dealer and I have multi-card totals, and the dealer has beaten me, I cry out "push!" ant pull my money back. Of course, I expect to have the dealer correct me, but he doesn't always clearly recall my bet size.
4) I ask to surrender before the dealer checks for the ace.
5) I insure for more.
6) I double for more.
7 Any number of things when the dealer has a blackjack.
So you see, I am not that good of a Christian at the tables. As long as it is legal, though, I don't see a good reason not to do it to the casinos.
On the other hand, I would NEVER take an action that would harm another player.
Re: Mixed sentiments
Posted by branmuffin on 26-Oct-2002 17:55:03 (#239)
Mayor:
Wow those are all great moves ..and they are legal and most be profitable ocasionally and add to EV.
But do you make these plays in every applicable situation ??
If you did I think you would possibly attract heat from the pit which would nullify these plays..
Mixed "sporadically" = aggregate EV increase (NM)
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 18:11:33 (#242)
Re: Mixed sentiments
Posted by Pit Boss on 30-Oct-2002 15:29:03 (#353)
3) The dealer and I have multi-card totals, and the dealer has beaten me, I cry out "push!" ant pull my money back. Of course, I expect to have the dealer correct me, but he doesn't always clearly recall my bet size.
I am not so sure the is legal...
Re: Mixed ... HOW ABOUT...
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Oct-2002 15:47:58 (#356)
...THIS ONE? zg
HERE'S ONE (a 1-time per club/yr) = I'm at 3rd base, face-down pitch, I spread to 2hands but I'm only dealt 1hand by dealer-error - I push the cards apart WITHOUT FIRST LOOKING, 1card to a bet (I do this quickly while the dealer is occupied at 1st base, remember I haven't looked at them and I did have both bets out properly) In most clubs the PC will instruct the dealer to deal another card each and then give me the option to play or FREE SURRENDAR (ie, dead hand) each. This is a move that I learned from the several times that a dealer DID deal 1card per spot. zg
Re: Mixed sentiments
Posted by sighguy on 26-Oct-2002 20:38:10 (#249)
The dealer and I have multi-card totals, and the dealer has beaten me, I cry out "push!" ant pull my money back. Of course, I expect to have the dealer correct me, but he doesn't always clearly recall my bet size.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be knowingly pinching your bet - which is a crime. You'd probably get away with it once, but would be warned. If you did it again after being warned it was illegal, you could be snatched up for an appointment with a gaming agent. I know you've made a big deal about how counting isn't cheating ( and I don't think it is), but actions such as you've outlined is the reason "advantage" players are thought of as....well, name calling never accomplishes anything, does it? I will tell you now, I work in a casino (big surprise huh?) and over the years I have seen many instances wherein the CASINO failed to properly pay a patron. Each time I've seen it, I have made sure that the money was paid to the patron. It works both ways, I truly believe that. My karma is sailing along just fine..how 'bout yours?
Here's a better way -
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 21:27:42 (#250)
- You've got a maxBet out and catch a crappy pair (77v10, etc.) - call the PC over and ask "may I split?" - when he indicates the house's approval THEN grab the money and head out the door.
True story, Maxim April 1 1987, those fabulous 2D games, I catch a very odd-looking 5card 22 and proclaim "bingo!" and tuck the cards, the dealer whisks up my cards and pays me, and then a PC from three-tables down halts the play and spreads my cards revealing the correct total - with a sheepish smile I say "April Fools!" zg
Re: Mixed sentiments HERE'S ONE=
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 21:41:13 (#252)
Mayor didn't say that he would pinch the total... these are moves that can each be played at a different casino very infrequently - often times its enough to simply pat-motion a push even though your 4card 18 doesn't push the dealer's 2card 19.
HERE'S ONE (a 1-time per club/yr) = I'm at 3rd base, face-down pitch, I spread to 2hands but I'm only dealt 1hand by dealer-error - I push the cards apart WITHOUT FIRST LOOKING, 1card to a bet (I do this quickly while the dealer is occupied at 1st base, remember I haven't looked at them and I did have both bets out properly) In most clubs the PC will instruct the dealer to deal another card each and then give me the option to play or FREE SURRENDAR (ie, dead hand) each. This is a move that I learned from the several times that a dealer DID deal 1card per spot. zg
So nice
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Oct-2002 23:31:00 (#256)
It is so very nice to hear from an insider on these boards.
I encourage you to contribute as often and in any situation you like.
I pull my moves whenever the "feeling" is right. But, I am strictly legal, I would never violate the law, in any case whatsoever. I pull every legal move in the book, as often as possible, to take as much money from you as I possibly can. But, it is all legal, you bet!
However, I have seen dealer systematically short change me, several times in a session, more times than I can count. These dealers are working for someone, either themselves, a cheating ring, or the house.
Do these dealers keep the extra chips for themselves? Why do they do it?
--Mayor
Re: Mixed sentiments
Posted by lifesabet on 27-Oct-2002 08:10:30 (#262)
Im just too disgusted to say what I really think about these types of tactics.
...but I sent the mayor my nasty little message via email. no hard feelings.
Lets see, BlackJack can be beat. Therefore, I want
o A regulatory agency to protect my rights, same as all other players
o The casinos to pay me when I win
o The casinos to pay for all my drinks and comps
o The casinos to be courteous to me even though I wong in and out at
every opportunity and demand the full betting range of the table,
(did I mention that I want that cut card as deep as possible?)
o No heat from the pit when I play with my brain, afterall the casino
is going to win in the end so why cant I have my fair shot too?
o And to top it off, I want to work against the casino, actively doing what
I can to increase the number of errors that the dealer makes in my favor,
and coincidentally in favor of the other squares at my table.
The casino is there because of square money. They would all love to play
fair and not have the head-aches of dealing with dihonest folks. They would
probably not care too much about card counters (however working in teams is
a whole different story and my opinion is that casinos should have the power
to discourage this if they are sharp enough to identify it). But then there are
the few dishonest folks which screw it up for all others. If you are an advantaged player and think you are winning the casinos money, well try asking yourself where the money came from. If you are working for yourself, thats fair, thats what you are supposed to be doing. If you are working with the casino because you want to be able to be paid, thats a great idea. If you are working for 'the players', then shouldnt you be standing outside with a picket sign saying 'dont go in there, you will lose all your money!'
If every single bj player visited this site, and knew what you knew, whether or not they cheat (ie: use the tactics you mentioned) then there would be no bj tables to play at. Luckily, not every player will go to the trouble to learn as much as you have. That means you will always have tables to play at, and most likely, average folks will still believe that bj is beatable and will continue to play. Life is not fair, and I guess everyone should try to get whatever edge they can get, so now you probably understand why heat is so very necessary. I guess cards really are war in disguise of a game.
-lifesabet
Dealer error THINKFAST!
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 18:09:32 (#241)
Dealer error THINKFAST!
My last trip provided a rash of dealer errors that were exploitable only by thinking fast - like the dealer hard 20 that was then hit with 2 Aces while I
stood on 99 with a maxBet - as the dealer called the PC over I yanked my 9s up and started scratching - had the PC seen my cards tucked he likely would NOT have called it a dead hand.
Same dealer/table w/ 2 maxBets out I was dealt 1 card to each, whereupon I found an 8 on one and a 10 on the other, dealer showing 10 - careful to keep them seperate the dealer called a floorgal who did not respond - dealer then attempted to push them together to make 1 hand whereupon I pushed them appart again (in a playful manner) and requested a PC, who upon arriving said "deal him 2 more cards." I now held 8-4 on the 1st hand and PC asks if I want to play it - "no" - 2nd hand is 10-10 - "yes" --keeping the cards
seperate was key.
At the Hshoe recently 2 ploppies invaded my heads-up game and somehow I was dealt 3 cards which I quickly glanced at 8-3-5 - I kicked back the 5 in front of my bet and when the dealer got to me he asked "whats this?" "I dunno." He quickly burned it stating that if he calls the suits over it will be a dead
round.
I had more of these incidents in 14 days of play then I can recall in any previous 200 days of play.
Be alert for dealer errors and THINKFAST! (like when the dealer fails to burn a card after shuffle, common at Barona, if you don't like your hand...) zg
Re: Dealer error THINKFAST!
Posted by phantom007 on 27-Oct-2002 01:12:49 (#257)
I have personally found that correcting dealer overpayments is appreciated by both the dealer and the Floor Personnel, and I have experience warm situations that suddently turned quite cool...i.e., watchful eyes turn into smiles, comps, and NO HEAT.
Re: Dealer error THINKFAST!
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Oct-2002 06:20:10 (#259)
Correcting dealer errors to the house's benefit IS a valid form of cover... as is NOT correcting dealr errors to your favor... the situation/enviroment will usually suggest the best tactic. zg
Re: Dealer error THINKFAST!
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Oct-2002 09:13:36 (#270)
Yes, that's true. But have you also noticed the opposite when you catch the dealer in a mistake? "Hey, that guy is watching too closely, we better keep an eye on him..."
I advocate correcting all dealer errors you see, as long as you are NOT playing at an advantage, and you are playing at a casino in which you are a regular.
I'll go a step further. If you live in an area of the country where there are a few local casinos that you hit all the time, then you want to be on the good side, they will learn your face soon enough. Cover is everything, and it will cost a bit. In this case, correcting SMALL dealer errors in your favor is the right way to go. Longevity is everything.
--Mayor
Re: Honesty in BJ
Posted by ZOD on 27-Oct-2002 10:21:44 (#278)
I figured that there would be differing opinions on this topic. But, I am a little suprised by the cavalier interpretations of cheating, especially after years of hearing counters complain about being regarded as cheaters by the casinos. I know the world isn't black and white and I know that human beings are wizards at rationalizing their own actions. I just wonder if the guy who knowingly accepts an incorrect dealer payout is the same guy who wouldn't return a lost wallet. Do we change our basic nature at the tables, or is it an indicator of who we really are?
In the casino world, I have a vested interest in being honest at the tables. I mostly play at local casinos where several dealers and floors know me by name. I agree with Phantom that casino goodwill gained by an honest approach far outweighs the extra money I could make by cheating. As the Mayor correctly pointed out, longevity is everything, especially in a case like mine. I can win without using "questionable methods". I try to play smart and take my wins a few chips at a time. For me, this approach works fine.
I know that everyone has their own agendas and circumstances and I am truly not trying to preach. I just wanted to toss out a little food for thought. Thanks for the responses. Best...
Re: Honesty in BJ
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 27-Oct-2002 23:35:30 (#289)
The following incident happened to me quite a while ago.
The appropriate hand signal for surrender in one of the non-LV casinos I had visited is to hold your hand palm up, and draw your four fingers toward you a couple of times, in sort of a "come here"-type gesture. This was the case the first time I've ever encountered a surrender rule.
I visited Las Vegas for the first time shortly after this, and was playing in a game that offered surrender. I made my surrender gesture and said something like:
"Pretty crumby hand...surrender that".
The dealer hit the hand and I busted.
"Wait a minute, I just surrendered that hand!"
"This means hit". (giving my surrrender signal)
"But I said outloud I wanted to surrender"
"We have to go by hand signals so the camera can see"
I asked for the pitboss. When he came over I told him how I had learned a different signal, and how I said outloud I wanted to surrender... No good.
"Look, I just made a mistake", I said to the dealer. "I'm sure you heard me say... ".
At this point the pitboss started the authoritarian act.
"You hit the hand and that's the end of it".
And that was the end of it.
Was it my fault I didn't know the proper hand signal and inadvertently busted that hand? Yes it was. I screwed up. But, there is not one bit of doubt in my mind the dealer knew I made a mistake. He heard me ask for the surrender. I'm absolutely positive he knew.
The point being: There is no way a casino will give a player the benefit when he screws up. It's never going to happen. Therefore, it is important not to correct mistakes that occur in ones favor as a player. This isn't a question of anyone "screwing anyone at any opportunity". This, for me, has simply become a rule of fair play.
Re: Honesty in BJ
Posted by sighguy on 28-Oct-2002 00:19:50 (#290)
The point being: There is no way a casino will give a player the benefit when he screws up. It's never going to happen
Um, baloney Felix. You have one "bad" experience and it's now "no way a casino will.." situation? The fact of the matter is the PB had no concept of customer service - that being, give the player the benefit of the doubt, you'll have a customer for life.
But - you also have to be aware (please read Mayors tactics) that this is also a common, cheap shot. Push a little if you feel you're right - ask to speak to the PB's boss. That will (depending on the place) probably lead to a request for video review. Believe this - if there's a competent eye-guy (or gal, gotta be PC) they will check back a few hands to see if you made a different signal for a "hit" - if so, chances are (depending on the place) - you'll be given the benefit of the doubt and allowed to surrender.
Of course, this is totally based on my personal experience in the world of Casino Gaming.
Re: Honesty in BJ
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Oct-2002 09:46:49 (#296)
I have to agree with sighguy. It is my experience that the "keep the customer happy" rule is common at most casinos. Only a few, like the El Cortez, will go out of their way to screw you if they have the chance.
The following happened to me. I was counting a double deck game, the count was huge, I had a monster bet out and split and doubled. The table was full, and the dealer turns over a stiff. The count was so huge, I knew all the cards remaining were T. She ran out of cards and now she might actually make a hand when she shuffled the remainder (given all the T's on the table!).
The pit boss not only let me take my bet back, he comped me a dinner in the nicest restaurant in the house for their mistake.
--Mayor
Re: Honesty in BJ
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 28-Oct-2002 12:39:04 (#300)
OK, SighGuy. I may have been a bit overly-emphatic when I said it would never happen. But, the example I gave was just one of a few situations I had encountered. My rule to not correct dealer mistakes is based on my time at the tables too, so I'll have to stand by my position.
Mayor, I believe you're misunderstanding me. When a dealer deals past the end of the pack it is the mistake of the house, not the player. Yes, I've found the house (just about) always corrects themselves when a dealer goofs in favor of the casino.
Look at it this way:
1. I error in casinos favor --so-- I accept when casino errors in my favor
2. Casino errors in casinos favor --so-- casino usually makes good
3. I error in my favor -- This is as not likely to happen as the other scenarios. If I misplay a hand, chances are I'll lose because it's an incorrect play. Plus, I have encountered those relatively rare situations where the house did not compensate for it's own mistake. So, there is a bit of a balance here too.
Re: Honesty in BJ
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Oct-2002 18:31:05 (#314)
Point made. I did not read what you were saying correctly.
At the El Cortez, if you make an honest mistake, they will eat you up. Likewise at the Golden Spike, the Western, the Barbary Coast, the Frontier, and a few other shops.
At just about every other place, especially the nicer strip joints, I always get the benefit of the doubt from the floor. They have too much at stake to mistreat me, or so they think 8-).
Their must be a formula that equates the last time the carpet was shampooed with the quality of the customer service in gaming disputes.
--Mayor
Effect on other players.
Posted by Coug Fan on 01-Nov-2002 17:45:16 (#448)
Here is a recent situation. 3 players at a $1 minimum player. I had 2 hands of $10, Player B has 1 hand of $1, and Player C has two hands of $25. Player B and I both are dealt stiffs and stand. Player C splits and doubles like crazy on both hands until he has $150 on the table (and has to go into his pocket). Dealer turns over a low card to go with her low up card, then hits to a 6 card 21. Dealer thinks she has 16 with 5 cards (really has 15). When she flips the final 6, she announces "One too many" and starts paying all the hands. Player B ($1 better) speaks up and says "Wait, you have a 21". This really happened.
Given the significantly different amounts of money at stake, I believe that it was up to Player C to decide whether he should call out the error, and that Player B was effectively butting in where he did not belong.
I couldn't resist splitting tens the next time Plaer B had his "big" bet out ($5). When he complained, I told him that he could complain after I did it 60 more times and cost him the same $300 that he had cost Player C. For some reason, he left after that hand.
Another board is open here for non-BJ
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Oct-2002 15:58:28 (#235)
I have opened another board on which all these interesting discussions about our favorite movies, conspiracy theories, etc., can take place.
I encourage you, if you want to discuss non-blackjack topics, to use the link
to post your thoughts. Let's keep this page on the topic of advantage blackjack.
Thanks for your continuing contributions,
--Mayor
Blackjack Espionage
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 17:56:56 (#240)
From: "zengrifter" <zengrifter@y...>
Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 11:26 am
Subject: Blackjack Espionage
Blackjack Espionage
"I am not what I am" - Iago, Othello
Left alone, professional card-counters can grind out significant
profits in the long-term. Unfortunately, the casinos fear and take
measures to prevent card-counting. If, anywhere in the world, you are
suspected of card-counting, your play will be analyzed by invisible
surveillance operatives (the eye-in-the-sky). If their suspicions are
confirmed, you will be:
- Politely welcomed to play any game except blackjack.
- Given a verbal warning.
- Given a written warning and formally barred, being given notice
that a return to the casino will result in your arrest for trespass.
- Subjected to any of an array of countermeasures, such as
increasing the number of cards cut out of play or restricting your
bet size.
How much of a problem this is depends greatly on the individual. For
the full-time player who is always travelling, there is always the
next casino. A barring from one is not of great significance, though
he must be careful not to get himself on a blacklist.
For the casual player, who may be tied down to a full-time job and
patronizes only a few local casinos, the problem is more serious.
Most modern blackjack literature overemphasizes the problem of
barring. Great importance is based on the establishment of an "act."
This requires the card-counter to assume a persona that would not
normally be associated with the obsessive and intelligent
characteristics of the card-counter. This, of course, will not fool
anybody who is familiar with card-counting and is analyzing the
counter's play. The act is designed to prevent this from ever
happening. In general, this will only happen if the pit boss becomes
suspicious of an individual's play, and requests confirmation that
this is the case. A pit boss is naturally going to pay more attention
to a middle-aged professorial type than a loudmouthed tourist, or a
rich playboy, for example. Acts are fun. They allow you to play
different characters and revel in your own deception, and they can be
successful in throwing the pit off your trail.
If you adopt an "act," you must not be half-hearted about it. You
must be 100% committed to the character you have created. Often high-
stakes players become enamoured with the possibilities inherent in
disguises; some even employ special effects whizzes to kit them out!
In truth, most of a successful act can be accomplished by adopting
subtleties of movement, mannerism and speech. You must become the
character you are playing. It is not enough to put on an accent. That
is not convincing. Good actors, both in the casinos and on the stage,
do not act from the neck upwards. Create your own character's
history, friends, occupation etc. You should never be asked a
question you do not have an answer for. Moreover, if you are not
wrapped up in the lifestyle of your character, your body language
will give you away in many small, unconscious signals. Other people
pick up on these signals without realizing it and they will become
suspicious without knowing why. Pay attention to details such as the
way you walk; these little details can give you away.
Another method of avoiding detection involves making cover plays,
i.e., a play not in accordance with the recommended actions of a card-
counting system. This may mean making incorrect
drawing/standing/splitting/doubling decisions, not raising your bet
when the count goes up and not lowering when it goes down, or betting
high off the top of the shoe. Be careful with deviations from your
system.
The reasons for being careful with your deviations is simple: your
edge is small, do not jeopardize it further. You will make incorrect
plays from time to time in any case. You cannot make playing errors
when you have large bets out, because the cost is too high--your
profit depends on these large bets. This is precisely when the pit
will be watching you closely.
My opinion concerning the necessity of cover is simple: while the
card-counter plays blackjack against the dealer, he plays poker
against the pit--that is, his play is geared towards the intelligence
of the pit. Against incompetent or disinterested casino personnel,
the counter plays tight, i.e., in accordance with the precise
recommendations of his system. Against personnel skilled in the art
of game protection he plays tight and loose, i.e., he mixes up his
play between correct and seemingly random play. He is always keeping
the pit guessing but plays close enough to the dictates of the system
to win consistently.
Note that the poker analogy extends to the importance of body
language. Game protection personnel are instructed to look for
giveaway mannerisms which mark out the professional card-counter,
much as expert poker players can deduce the strength of their
opponent's hand from subtleties of movement and behavior. Counters,
even ones who put on a fairly good "act," have certain unconscious
habits: they handle chips in a precise and skilled manner, they are
often over-friendly, they stare at the pit boss. The lessons are
clear: handle your chips in a clumsy and awkward manner. Do not
interact with casino staff unless you can do it in a natural manner.
By all means monitor the pit bosses behavior, but do it with your
peripheral vision.
In general, once the pit has identified you as a potential threat,
they will look through the surveillance tapes for any record of your
play they can find. These tapes are kept for a finite period; they
may be erased after a week. Your play will be thoroughly analyzed to
determine if you are counting. According to the former card-counter
catcher Max Rubin, who worked at the Mirage casino in Las Vegas, it
typically required a hundred hands to determine if a player was or
was not counting. Obviously, this would be higher or lower depending
on the correlation between the counter's play and perfect
mathematical application of the card-counting system. It is evident
that a player who travels from club to club, plays only forty minutes
at a time in each, and does not return for a week to the same shift
has a very good chance of falling through the system. Bryce Carlson,
author of Blackjack for Blood and one of the great Lawrence Revere's
most successful pupils, advises not returning to the same casino for
a period of three months!
Play All Multi-Deck Games
Posted by branmuffin on 26-Oct-2002 18:20:36 (#243)
Assuming usual 2D,4D,6D games(not 8D) is Play All fundamentaly flawed for investigative pre-professional Bankroll?
I understand exited strongly negative TC's in 6D shoes ?
But are you suggesting Wong only on 2D-6D games.
This seems undoable realistically..you'd be attracting to much heat and never getting any hours in play and worst of all you'd burn yourself out mentally with this cat and mouse routine.
Is it possible to play a solid 20-40 hours(more like 40 hours) a week as a pro?
If you only played hour and a half sessions at each casino for cover 5-6 times a day 5 days a week.. thats 25-30 sessions a week ...You need to play in a town with a dozen casino w/ playable games....The only place you could do it realistically is Las Vegas or you'd have to be a roadplayer constantly moving?/???
My methodology at gambling for a living has always been grinding away at it..is this doable ?
Re: Play All Multi-Deck Games ??
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 18:57:26 (#246)
**My responses are embedded -
Assuming usual 2D,4D,6D games(not 8D) is Play All fundamentaly flawed for investigative pre-professional Bankroll?
**Play all at 6-8Ds requires a 1-50 apread, whereas wonging same requires only 1-6 to acheive equivalent EV with less 'pit exposure' and less RoR.
I understand exited strongly negative TC's in 6D shoes ?
**NO, NOT "strongly negative" exit at -1 to -2 TC and go to a fresh shoe.
But are you suggesting Wong only on 2D-6D games.
This seems undoable realistically..you'd be attracting to much heat and never getting any hours in play and worst of all you'd burn yourself out mentally with this cat and mouse routine.
**On the 2D games, most of which are marginal at best, use reverse wonging frequently, ALSO sit out occaisional -counts - for example, if you are playing 1-6 spread BUT you bypass just 1 out of every 3 of the -counts/hands your effective spread is now 1-9.
Is it possible to play a solid 20-40 hours(more like 40 hours) a week as a pro?
**Absolutely, mobility and planning being key.
If you only played hour and a half sessions at each casino for cover 5-6 times a day 5 days a week.. thats 25-30 sessions a week ...You need to play in a town with a dozen casino w/ playable games....The only place you could do it realistically is Las Vegas or you'd have to be a roadplayer constantly moving?/???
**Yes and yes.
My methodology at gambling for a living has always been grinding away at it..is this doable ?
**Use a higher RoR and less or NO cover at the smallerBR level (barring is less likely and replacement of a ruinedBR is easier)- get to a $25u BR as fast ASAP ($10k+), where the games are less congested and the comps more meaningful - then use more cover and lower RoR. zg
my take on your questions
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Oct-2002 12:46:26 (#281)
>Assuming usual 2D,4D,6D games(not 8D) is Play All fundamentaly flawed for investigative pre-professional Bankroll?
Play-all is the norm for 2D games. Don't even consider wonging them for other than your entertainment. For 6D-8D games, avoid play all if possible.
>I understand exited strongly negative TC's in 6D shoes ?
Exit even marginally negative shoes. There is great material about correct exit strategies in Blackjack Attack 2nd edition.
>This seems undoable realistically..you'd be attracting to much heat and never getting any hours in play and worst of all you'd burn yourself out mentally with this cat and mouse routine.
False, it is easy, and you are hardly noticed. I can wong for hours without getting a glance. Why? Small bet spread is the key! A couple of tips. It is ok to start a shoe and leave when the count tanks, as opposed to only playing shoes that you enter mid-way when the count exceeds a target value. Second, only wong at busy casinos during peak hours. You need lots of games, and you need to be able to blend into the crowd. Wonging at a casino with only 2 shoe games at 4AM will get you in big trouble (I speak from first hand experience).
>Is it possible to play a solid 20-40 hours(more like 40 hours) a week as a pro?
What do you count as time? If you factor in transportation time, then if I work from the moment I get up to the moment I go to sleep, MAYBE I can get 8 hours of play in for the day. If you want to "work" 40 hours a week, you may find that you are only playing/wonging 20 of those, and the other 20 are spent scouting/travelling/cashing out, etc.
>If you only played hour and a half sessions at each casino for cover 5-6 times a day 5 days a week.. thats 25-30 sessions a week ...You need to play in a town with a dozen casino w/ playable games....The only place you could do it realistically is Las Vegas or you'd have to be a roadplayer constantly moving?/???
Exactly.
>My methodology at gambling for a living has always been grinding away at it..is this doable ?
You will start out as a counter, but quickly you will find that there are many more ways of bringing in $$$ from casinos, and you will be doing a little of each of them. You will evolve into an advantage player, with many skills, one of which is counting. Get/read "Beyond Counting" by James Grosjean.
--Mayor
What I think
Posted by kansas on 28-Oct-2002 11:06:35 (#298)
>Assuming usual 2D,4D,6D games(not 8D) is Play All fundamentaly flawed for investigative pre-professional Bankroll?
6D-8D games, wonging is a must.
2D games, wong out on that last round or two before shuffle if count is negative.
>I understand exited strongly negative TC's in 6D shoes ?
Exit even marginally negative shoes. There is great material about correct exit strategies in Blackjack Attack 2nd edition.
(Listen to the Mayor!)
>This seems undoable realistically..you'd be attracting to much heat and never getting any hours in play and worst of all you'd burn yourself out mentally with this cat and mouse routine.
Sitting at a table for hours and hours, varying your bets with the count, attracts heat.
"never getting any hours in play"? Why do you want to play negative counts? Are you here to play or are you here to make money? Jumping in and out, from table to table, draws less heat, if you have the right act to look like some kind of hyper gambling idiot. Look at slot machine players. Some sit at the same machine for hours and hours, some jump around, up and down aisles, coin here, few coins there.
Table players are the same.
>Is it possible to play a solid 20-40 hours(more like 40 hours) a week as a pro?
Yes, time spent observing play is counted just like time spent actually playing.
>If you only played hour and a half sessions at each casino for cover 5-6 times a day 5 days a week.. thats 25-30 sessions a week ...You need to play in a town with a dozen casino w/ playable games....The only place you could do it realistically is Las Vegas or you'd have to be a roadplayer constantly
moving?/???
True. You were expecting to make a living sitting at the local casino down the road? How long until the casino notices you are not on the official payroll?
>My methodology at gambling for a living has always been grinding away at it..is this doable ?
Maybe, but after grinding away at it long enough, you will figure out easier methods.
SCORE minimums
Posted by branmuffin on 26-Oct-2002 21:29:37 (#251)
Is there a minimum SCORE for all game conditions where you advise wonging to cut the mustard?
Poor/fair penetration normal rules in (SD) DD and 6D's.
I seem to come up w/SCORES of 13-20 in games we/ve discussed using CasinoVerite EV Calculator.
If you have an EV of +0.60%/0.80% in poor/fair penetration in 2D(1-6 spread) and 6D(1-12)..I am guessing at an average betsize of $20.00x 75 hands per hour equaling $1500 in action per hour thus >>$9-12 per hour.In 500 hours I should be able to make 5K doubling BR.
I guess I could try a 10k/15K BR w/$25 units but I dont want to risk more than a 5K BR for investigative purposes ..I am willing to grind out 5K BR at minimum wage then hopefully move up to 10k/15k BR.
This is being realistic with realistic crap game conditions
Why do you need to Wong??
Are these EV assumptions off the top ..spread around BJ literature unrealistic?
I understand your advice may be for the short BR on short hours..to limit SD and up EV .But if I play at 95%ROR 5K BR and stay with my units ($10)..very disciplined and play 500 hours..why would wonging be necessary??
Re: SCORE **Responses -
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2002 22:12:12 (#254)
**Responses -
Is there a minimum SCORE for all game conditions where you advise wonging to cut the mustard? Poor/fair penetration normal rules in (SD) DD and 6D's.
I seem to come up w/SCORES of 13-20 in games we/ve discussed using CasinoVerite EV Calculator.
**The main reason for your LOW SCORES is your INSUFICIENT SPREADS
If you have an EV of +0.60%/0.80% in poor/fair penetration in 2D(1-6 spread)...
**Then you need to INCREASE SPREAD to 1-9 (or 2x6)
and 6D(1-12)...
**Increase spread to 1-2x12 (min) -OR- decrease spread to 1-8 AND WONG. Remember, the next best thing to wonging in is wonging OUT... and the ultimate is to wong in and out while staying at the same table.
I am guessing at an average betsize of $20.00x 75 hands per hour equaling $1500 in action per hour thus >>$9-12 per hour.In 500 hours I should be able to make 5K doubling BR.
**Multiple choice ques- You can increase that $/hr by - a)increasing your spread, b)decreasing your BR's contact w/-counts, c)increasing your playing speed and #hands per hour, d)increasing your i#
I guess I could try a 10k/15K BR w/$25 units but I dont want to risk more than a 5K BR for investigative purposes ..I am willing to grind out 5K BR at minimum wage then hopefully move up to 10k/15k BR.
**If you drill hard first and you KNOW that your game is solid, AND THE MONETARY IS IMPORTANT TO YOU (maybe its not), move to quarters whether solo or as a joint venture.
This is being realistic with realistic crap game conditions
**The only difference between crap games and choice, is that crap games require a bigger spread and a bigger BR to offset a bigger variance, the EV should still be the same acceptable minimum of say 60?
Are these EV assumptions off the top ..spread around BJ literature unrealistic?
**No, assuming accurate play.
I understand your advice may be for the short BR on short hours..to limit SD and up EV .But if I play at 95%ROR 5K BR and stay with my units ($10)..very disciplined and play 500 hours..why would wonging be necessary??
**$10u w/$5k sounds right, still wong-out as often as possible and necessary, and use a bigger spread at 2D, for starters.
Obviously I understand wonging lowers SD increases EV but I am interested in playing hours and PLAYALL(except for your recommended exit on TC=-2 or worse).
**For std hiLo count the optimum shoe exit is more like -1.4 TC (approx)
My goal is to take a 5K BR($10 units) to a 10K/15k BR($25units)??
Thnx for the help
**Be aggressive and cunning, take no prisoners, and don't think that you can just sit down and play because they don't want to play with you! You are, as a counter, more like the pool-hustler who no one would play for money with if they knew.
My guess is you have been blacklisted ..how do you manage to still play?
**I don't take the barrings too seriously or personally, and its a much bigger sea now then 20yrs ago. zg
Re: SCORE **Responses -
Posted by branmuffin on 26-Oct-2002 22:30:53 (#255)
this thread and prior dozen are great stuff > I am printing all this info.in case a pacific tsunami hits santabarbara tommorrow and wipes out the server..
My guess is this experience you are kind enought to share is hard-earned.thanx for invaluable assistance..back to printing.
cheers Lee
Why Wong?
Posted by kansas on 28-Oct-2002 10:50:38 (#297)
EV maximation and lowering SD.
Yes, your EV figures are correct for play-all, but consider this:
How are you going to feel if you are 'unlucky' and wind up on the negative SD side of the curve? What if after your $5000 and 500 hours of play (500 hours of play is going to take you how many months?), you wind up a whole $1.92 ahead?
500 hrs for $1.92 is how much profit per hour?
Remember your EV numbers are 'in the long run', your mileage will vary.
By wonging, you reduce variance and increase EV, you are more likely to achieve a better profit number quicker.
Re: Why Wong?
Posted by branmuffin on 28-Oct-2002 17:03:30 (#306)
I plan to play 500 hours in 3 months..I may have to hit the road to spread my action round.
You are definetly right i understand what you are saying.
Not only are you right but I went back to bjstats bankroll calculator and did some double-checking:
To double a 5K BR to a 10K BR over 50,000(500 hours)hands ...to get to that 10K BR your initial 5K BR has ROR of 66%...1/3 of the time you bust out or you make a measly $10 per hour...this is assuming the sd and winrate per 100 hands are correct assumptions.
To have a ROR of 90% I need $7305 to get to that $10K...still a 1/10 chance of biting the big one.This would yield a whopping $5.39 per hour.
ROR of 95% requires a starting BK of $8140 to get to that $10K..a 1/20 chance which is more in my grinder/murphy's law mentality again a whopping $3.72 per hour.
These are worsecase scenarios but still puts things in the persrpective you refer to.
No wander bj experts say save a bigger a BR and then give it a shot..
I am going to do it this way because i have time to burn,plenty of real money in the bank and I need the experince most of all.
For a 50% ROR I only need a BR of$ 3855..more realistic and $12.29 per hour.PS if I really push myself i could play 60 hours a week with good cover...rest and exercice...thats only 2 months.
Damn those are crappy hourly averages.I need to build up BR legitimately thru play of the game and get up to 10k-15K/25K BR..to make decent horly rate.
Re: Why Wong?
Posted by Biff on 28-Oct-2002 18:07:12 (#311)
Looks like we are off to the same adventure, increasing our bankroll. Please keep me updated on your progress.
Good Luck
Low EV/Scores playable??
Posted by branmuffin on 26-Oct-2002 22:02:54 (#253)
Are low EV/SCORE scenarios off the top games worth playing with large BR/s?
Low EV I mean +0.10%/+0.40%
SCORES of 3-13
Re: Low EV/Scores playable??
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Oct-2002 12:38:27 (#280)
Do not play these games to win money. Play them to hone skills and practice new systems, or for comps.
They are reasonable games for some purposes, just not for the purpose of making money.
--Mayor
Reader of the pack
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Oct-2002 05:23:17 (#258)
Reader of the pack
Wednesday April 17, 2002
Guardian Unlimited
http://www.observer.co.uk/osm/story/0,6903,678182,00.html
How easy is it to win at blackjack? Dead easy, if you know how.
Sandra Newman was a key member of a team of grifters that flew round
the world, their suitcases stuffed with dollars, beating casinos at
their own game. This is her story
'Professional gambler's assistants wanted, preferably. female.
£120/week plus 5 per cent of net, international travel.'
It all started with an ad in Loot. I came across it during the lunch
hour at my dead-end temping job, and without a second thought, I'd
rung the number. A few minutes later I had been invited to an
interview in the bar of a Kensington hotel. The husky voice at the
end of the line told me I'd recognise him by his full-length, black
leather trenchcoat. Putting down the phone, I already felt myself
escaping from my mundane existence into the world of international
crime where I belonged.
Right and Wrong
Posted by lifesabet on 27-Oct-2002 08:32:00 (#263)
Hello all,
I just wanted to explain the differences between right and wrong.
When the dealer counts cards and uses preferential shuffling, THIS IS WRONG.
When the player counts cards and wongs in and out, THIS IS RIGHT.
When the dealer makes an error against the player, THIS IS WRONG.
When the dealer makes an error for the player, especially when the player
actively does something to provoke the error, THIS IS RIGHT.
When the dealer decides to limit betting variations, THIS IS WRONG.
When the player decides to use full range of bets, THIS IS RIGHT.
When the casinos share information about sharp players, THIS IS WRONG.
When sharp players get together and play in teams to increase their
advantages and deceive the casino, THIS IS RIGHT.
When the casino gives heat for a player who deserves special treatment, WRONG.
When the player deserving of special treatment demands that he/she is treated
just like each and every other 'square' in the joint, THIS IS RIGHT.
I think I understand the differences now.
Sarcastically yours,
-lifesabet
Re: Right and Wrong
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Oct-2002 08:53:34 (#265)
I love your post! Sarcasm and all 8-)
--Mayor
A few more...
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Oct-2002 09:36:44 (#272)
Casinos give out free alcohol to weaken the will of the players: THIS IS RIGHT
Counters refuse alcohol so they can keep focused on their objective: THIS IS WRONG
Casinos do not have a rest area away from gambling, every chair has a machine/table associated with it: THIS IS RIGHT
Counters are rested when they play and not compulsive: THIS IS WRONG
Casinos decorate the ceiling and floor so that the natural eyemovement is towads the games: THIS IS RIGHT
Counters decorate their bodies so that they will not be recognized: THIS IS WRONG
This is FUN
--Mayor
Re: A few more...
Posted by lifesabet on 27-Oct-2002 10:13:55 (#276)
Its 110 degrees outside in the shade, but inside the pit its so cold you
better get some alcohol in you if you dont want your teeth to chatter.
"Would you like me to make that a DOUBLE?"
The waitresses serving drinks are in thongs because they are comfortable and
because we know your wives and girlfriends like to see other pretty ladies serving and distracting you.
You cannot use credit to gamble, but the casino will be happy to process a
cash-advance on your credit card, and then of course, since you are holding
greenbacks, you are free to play, "Whats your game?"
You dont have to leave the action behind when you get hungry, the keno gals will be around soon, or "Can I get you a sandwich from the kitchen while you
continue playing?"
You can bang on the tables, be a loud mouth, and disrespect the dealers while your chips are in front of you. Best of all, when you have blown out, we will comp you a couple body guards to see you make it safely out the door.
Thanks for your patronage, please come back soon!
-lifesabet
Booklist for wannabe punk bjpro
Posted by branmuffin on 27-Oct-2002 08:44:06 (#264)
Here's a list of 11 BJbooks I just orderd from amazon ..all paperbacks.totaling 150 bucks...a modest investment.And those of you that stress out over investing $100-400 in your game ..piss off.
Any other advice on good books.
I already read Revere's and Thorp's book.
I also plan on purchasing Casino Verite.
1 "Blackjack Attack, 2e"
Don Schlesinger; Paperback; @ $19.95 each
2 "Blackjack Autumn: A True Tale of Life, Death, and Splitting Tens in Winnemucca"
Barry Meadow; Paperback; @ $10.47 each
3 "The World's Greatest Blackjack Book"
Lance Humble, Carl Cooper; Paperback; @ $10.36 each
4 "Basic Blackjack"
Stanford Wong; Paperback; @ $10.47 each
5 "Las Vegas Blackjack Diary"
Stuart Perry; Paperback; @ $19.95 each
6 "Turning the Tables on Las Vegas"
Ian Andersen, Ian Anderson; Paperback; @ $2.95 each
7 "Theory of Blackjack, 6th Edition"
Peter A. Griffin; Paperback; @ $9.42 each
8 "Burning The Tables in Las Vegas--Keys to Success in Blackjack and in Life"
Ian Andersen; Hardcover; @ $18.75 each
9 "Blackjack Secrets"
Stanford Wong (Preface); Paperback; @ $7.50 each
10 "Professional Blackjack"
Stanford Wong (Preface); Paperback; @ $12.00 each
11 "Blackjack For Blood: The Card-Counters' Bible, and Complete Winning Guide"
Bryce Carlson; Paperback; @ $13.92 each
Re: Booklist for wannabe punk bjpro
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Oct-2002 10:06:10 (#274)
A few comments on your choices:
>1 "Blackjack Attack, 2e"
Don Schlesinger; Paperback; @ $19.95 each
Great book, must have.
>2 "Blackjack Autumn: A True Tale of Life, Death, and Splitting Tens in Winnemucca"
Barry Meadow; Paperback; @ $10.47 each
A fun read, will do nothing to improve your game.
>3 "The World's Greatest Blackjack Book"
Lance Humble, Carl Cooper; Paperback; @ $10.36 each
Another must have/must read.
>5 "Las Vegas Blackjack Diary"
Stuart Perry; Paperback; @ $19.95 each
Worthless.
>7 "Theory of Blackjack, 6th Edition"
Peter A. Griffin; Paperback; @ $9.42 each
Unless you have a strong mathematics background, you will not be reading much of this book.
>8 "Burning The Tables in Las Vegas--Keys to Success in Blackjack and in Life"
Ian Andersen; Hardcover; @ $18.75 each
Incredible book.
>10 "Professional Blackjack"
Stanford Wong (Preface); Paperback; @ $12.00 each
Must have/must read.
You have done well, read the books in this order: 3 then 10 then 8. Throw in book 2 when you need a fun read. Finally, read book 1 twice.
--Mayor
Re: Booklist for wannabe punk bjpro
Posted by branmuffin on 27-Oct-2002 10:19:24 (#277)
Mayor:thnx for the feedback ... willdo.
Ahem and by the way what the heck is this ace-tracking all about?
The quick and dirty on sequencing
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Oct-2002 10:35:21 (#279)
I have a shuffle applet on this site, set it to 6 decks, a watch where the aces go.
The theory is that if there is a sequence of cards, e.g. TJQKA that come out in one shoe, the the shuffle will put them in a sequence the next time they are dealt out. A bit of study and you can see a few standard sequences:
TxxJxxQxxKxxAxx
TxJxxQxxxKxxxxA
And so on.
You have to find a shuffle that is trackable, but once you have found one, watch out! The key is to have your guys all around the table, so they are all cooperating in steering the ace to the big player.
-Mayor
Re: Booklist for wannabe punk bjpro
Posted by V-man on 01-Nov-2002 10:59:53 (#436)
>5 "Las Vegas Blackjack Diary"
Stuart Perry; Paperback; @ $19.95 each
Worthless
I mildly disagree with the above quote. Stuart Perry is a very honest reflection of a BJ player. He doesn't have a lot to teach us but his honest report on his BJ sessions in LV teaches a lot. When I first started to count cards, gone through my first loosing streak, I read and re-read all my books, Stuart Perry book actually teaches me a lot at that time. Don's book is great. When you win a little, read BJA2. When you win a little more, read BJA2. When you start loosing a little, read BJA2 again, but when you start loosing a lot, read Stuart Perry.
Re: Booklist for wannabe punk bjpro
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Oct-2002 14:36:44 (#285)
BJA, Blackbelt in BJ, Uston on BJ.
Also, regarding CV, the drills are where its at - not playing BJ video game, HARD DRILLING, which is why I personally recommend NeUltraMC or SmartCards or even 678 (which also sims). SmartCards and BJRM combined are a good combo. If you have a PDA you can also consider the Deepnet products. zg
**rating(1-4)
1 "Blackjack Attack, 2e" (4)
Don Schlesinger; Paperback; @ $19.95 each
2 "Blackjack Autumn: A True Tale of Life, Death, and Splitting Tens in Winnemucca" (1)
Barry Meadow; Paperback; @ $10.47 each
3 "The World's Greatest Blackjack Book" (2)
Lance Humble, Carl Cooper; Paperback; @ $10.36 each
4 "Basic Blackjack" (2)
Stanford Wong; Paperback; @ $10.47 each
5 "Las Vegas Blackjack Diary" (1)
Stuart Perry; Paperback; @ $19.95 each
6 "Turning the Tables on Las Vegas" (3)
Ian Andersen, Ian Anderson; Paperback; @ $2.95 each
7 "Theory of Blackjack, 6th Edition" (2)
Peter A. Griffin; Paperback; @ $9.42 each
8 "Burning The Tables in Las Vegas--Keys to Success in Blackjack and in Life" (3)
Ian Andersen; Hardcover; @ $18.75 each
9 "Blackjack Secrets" (2)
Stanford Wong (Preface); Paperback; @ $7.50 each
10 "Professional Blackjack" (2)
Stanford Wong (Preface); Paperback; @ $12.00 each
11 "Blackjack For Blood: The Card-Counters' Bible, and Complete Winning Guide" (2)
Bryce Carlson; Paperback; @ $13.92 each
Re: Booklist for wannabe punk bjpro
Posted by kansas on 28-Oct-2002 13:33:59 (#301)
Read #9
Memorize #1 & #10.
Article about anti-cheating measures in casinos
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Oct-2002 09:04:31 (#268)
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2002/Oct-27-Sun-2002/business/19845202.html
Re: Article about anti-cheating measures in casino
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Oct-2002 17:11:11 (#287)
The FRS and the newer "nonobvious relationships assessment" (algorithm software) are what higher-stakes counters have to avoid, among other things. zg
Re: Article about anti-cheating -PS
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Oct-2002 00:12:03 (#318)
-PS, BOTH are easy. Is the non-obvious-relationships analysis covered in Mr. Cellini's new book? zg
LVHC*, any comments?
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Oct-2002 09:59:15 (#273)
With the interesting threads on morality, cheating, and the variety of tactics the advantage community takes, I would love to hear from the LVHC* group.
We have someone from the casino industry potsing here on behalf of casinos (lifesabet), and at least two others that I know of lurking. I can't/won't breach your trust, but there are some juicy things to say here that I hope you will say.
--Mayor
Re: LVHC*, any comments?
Posted by lifesabet on 27-Oct-2002 12:54:43 (#282)
Let me qualify that.
Actually, Im posting on behalf of my own opinions and nobody elses. If it
seems that Im biased toward the house, that is a correct assumption. My
opinions are based from my own experiences in the online gaming arena. My
blackjack knowledge is so limited that I am not be qualified to speak out,
and will avoid technical bj discussions as others can give much better
insight. I have never ever worked in a land based casino and I certainly am
not speaking on their behalf.
Please take my posts for what they are. They are an opinion of a single poster
who would have a professional agenda to protect the house. That being said,
I do think a little before I post. I try to give thoughts straight from my
heart, and I try to consider both sides of an argument.
...and sometimes Im even open enough to change my mind. (keyword: sometimes)
-lifesabet
Re: LVHC*, any comments?
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Oct-2002 13:30:42 (#283)
I assume that yourID is confidential, but can you tell us your position, or your experience, or whether you play at all yourself? Do you agree or disagree with the casinos' over-paranoia and profit-reducing excess shuffle? Anything? zg
Re: LVHC*, any comments?
Posted by lifesabet on 27-Oct-2002 16:28:20 (#286)
zg,
My work in the past has focused on systems programming. Always online, mostly sports, horses, and a taste of lottery. I tackled blackjack this year as a learning experience and to test a new platform. I thought blackjack was good because it is a skills game, and because the other products Ive seen were very poorly done, Im not even convinced they are blackjack.
If gambling is to wager at unfair odds, I think it is a poor long term financial decision, and an excellent career choice for those on the other side of the table. I gamble for entertainment. I dont chase because when I walk in my bills are paid, my savings is secure, my stomach is full, and Im just looking to have a good time and a bit of excitement, thats all.
My respect for sharps comes from my experience in sports where the book can make much more money if the sharps come in and correct the lines early. In a
casino if counters are a liability only, then I can understand the paranoia. On the other hand, if blackjack were not beatable it would not be as popular as it is today. As for the auto-shufflers, it must be a great asset to the casino in the short term. Take a busy floor, and eliminate the edge for card counters and you will get more profit. For the long haul (since I dont believe that shuffling every single hand is really blackjack, its no longer a beatable game) I would expect this to hurt casinos in the form of people not playing. In fact, I would expect no one who believes blackjack can be beaten to even consider playing at a table like that.
Its a tough line to walk. If the casinos are making more money throwing you out and they are swallowing their lumps from the bad publicity they get when you tell your friends, then it's probably not going to change. Id hope that offering a beatable game would attract more business.
The paranoid casinos certainly know more than I do when it comes to blackjack.
If this is their way of doing business and you still want a piece of them, then
under cover and out of the cross-hairs would be the way to operate.
Online is a different story. I think that a beatable game could be offered, and how beatable it is could be limited. A land based casino does not have the same options because players in general cannot be trusted to hold to a policy of limited action. The bottom line is, if the casinos arent making money at a certain game, then they are not going to offer it. If you are just getting a small piece of the pie, then Id imagine they would let it go for good PR until it got too big to ignore.
Blame the guys that wrote the books you read.
-lifesabet
Re: LVHC*, any comments?
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Oct-2002 17:15:03 (#288)
We want to put your e-casino sportsbook knowledge to our advantage understanding to beat e-casino sportsbooks, ok? zg
Re: LVHC*, any comments?
Posted by lifesabet on 28-Oct-2002 00:25:38 (#291)
ok. Ill do my best to answer any questions. Maybe a separate forum would be a better place for it. mayor?
-lifesabet
Re: LVHC*, any comments?
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Oct-2002 09:40:57 (#295)
Feel free to post here or in the Non-BJ on this thread.
--Mayor
Counting For GOD
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Oct-2002 01:17:49 (#294)
This was from earlier in the year, but I thought some of the members would enjoy it nonetheless. zg
-----------------
OBITUARIES 1-24-02
Rev. Joseph R. Fahey, 65; Donated
Blackjack Winnings to Jesuit Order
BOSTON -- The Rev. Joseph R. Fahey, a master fund-raiser who donated tens of thousands of dollars to his Jesuit order with the help of his card-counting skills, died Wednesday in a Boston hospital of an apparent heart attack. He
was 65.
Garbed in his single blue suit, Fahey played blackjack tables from Atlantic City to Las Vegas, in his words "all for the greater glory of God," until the casinos blacklisted him.
He was considered a mathematical genius and donated his winnings from gambling to the Society of Jesus to uphold his vow of poverty. "Many Jesuit missions owe a great debt to him and his abilities at the blackjack tables," said John Dunn, who worked for Fahey at Boston College High School.
As president of Boston College High from 1988 to
1998, Fahey boosted the school's endowment by 500%, financing an athletic center, library and computer laboratory.
Fahey received a doctorate in economics at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1967 and was ordained a priest in 1968. He taught economics at Holy Cross College in Worcester from 1968 to 1970, becoming dean of academics from 1971 to 1981.
He also taught economics at Boston College. On the last day of each semester, he treated students to a lesson on card counting and an explanation of how he beat the odds in blackjack.
The class was always well-attended.
e n d
Consolidation Betting Revealed
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Oct-2002 12:31:43 (#299)
Consolidation Betting Revealed
Circa'99 - This one is little known and stems from the theories of Mason Mamulth, 'BJEssays,'85 who is best known for poker and David Skalansky's partner.
It was first sim'd for me by GeoC who, in his own words said "at first I thought Grifter's idea was dumb." The sim-stats speak for themselves and GeoC named the scheme 'The Grifter's Gambit'
The Grifter's Gambit @ 2D
Typical Mirage 2-deck with 65 cards dealt, one player.
ZEN w/80 indices including split 10s.
Betting -
0/minus- 3 hand of 1 unit
TC 1,2 - 1 hand of 3 units
TC 3,4 - 1 hand of 5 units
TC 5+ - 1 hand of 7 units
Per 100 rounds, the sim showed -
a gain of 4.0u with a StDv of 49u.
DI 8.12 Score 62
RoRuin w/$50 units
25% $23K, 20% $27K, 10% $38K, 5% $50K, 1%
$77K.
For a typical 20 hour trip there is a 17% chance of
losing $12K
These numbers can be computed by using either JA's BJRM or Dunbar's Risk Manager. The sim was run on SBA 5.0.
I have applied the technique on and off in juicy DD games including Bellagio, Mirage, TxSta, IP and elsewhere with no heat. Irrespective of my great act, I think that the technique is pretty much off the counter-alert radar screen. I even allude to "my new system" while dealers and PCs alike grimace in disdain as I "chronically wreck the flow of cards after a favorable streak."
Recently I utilized it for hours on-end and repeatedly for several days at Bellagio, while listening to PC and dealer accounts of an on-going counter-purge, spreading
(alternating) oddly from 3x$50 to 1x$350.
I hesitate to include an estimate of just how many neg-decks I might abandon in an hour (the sim assumes NO exiting). I often appear to be closing a "big deal" and must run to the house phone or step back from the table frequently after an imaginary page or a pager/cell phone chirp (Icomplain excessively about the attorneys and associates needing me to hold their hand thru every detail!).
The Grifter's Gambit @ 1D
For a GOOD 1D there can be a virtual flat-bet-amount: -counts bet 3x1u and +counts bet 1x3u - this will yield a similar EV to a traditional 1-4 spread BUT w/higher variance.
Because the min-bet is 3x1u, the comps are much better, btw. zg
Re: Consolidation Betting Revealed
Posted by Lapper on 04-Dec-2002 17:45:23 (#1209)
The problem with this strategy is that most casinos put a restriction on betting more than one hand. For example, two hands you must double the minimum and three hands some places make you play 5 times the minimum. If you are a red chipper and your unit is $10 or $15, then your strategy is impossible to employ at these casinos.
Re: Consolidation Betting Revealed (An aside)
Posted by Poet on 28-Oct-2002 16:51:08 (#305)
You my friend are an incredible fountain of light (to mix metaphors). You have helped me reflect on Zen, karma, ethics, populism, and more - and that was just so far today.
Mayor, You are to be congratulated on cultivating such a vibrant Web site!
Re: Consolidation Betting Revealed (An aside)
Posted by branmuffin on 28-Oct-2002 17:09:38 (#307)
Have you checked out the Illuminati Conspiracy webpage zg referenced somewhere here.I spent 4 hours reading everything on there and that forced me to use encyclopedia.com where i was researching every damn cult, secret society and mystic organzition on the globe..from kaballah to shriners..
Hehe zg ..bro where do you get the time..you must be a voracious reader..
Re: Consolidation Betting Revealed (An aside)
Posted by Poet on 28-Oct-2002 17:19:04 (#308)
Yes, that's part of what I'm alluding to. And I've been reading ZG and the M's past posts and the discussions triggered - sparks!
Now to the matter at hand, this strategy is brilliant I think. I hope it does not become a player tell too soon.
Re: Consolidation Betting Revealed (An aside)
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Oct-2002 17:33:35 (#310)
>> this strategy is brilliant I think. I hope it does not become a player tell too soon. <<
------------------
Choosing a counting system for Single deck
Posted by aoko on 28-Oct-2002 14:12:36 (#302)
Couple of months back I started doing lot of research on net and read lot of books to pick a counting system for single deck. Since Playing strategy for single deck is important I chose to go with AO11 and bought "Balckjack for Blood" by Bryce carlson. Practised AO11 for a month with just Ill 18 indices before hitting casinos in Reno.
I am a red chipper with spreads of 1-3 or 1-4. I didn't do any Ace side counts
and I experienced I was bit slow in TC conversion for playing strategy.I was up 60 units after playing for 12 hours last weekend.
Recently I came across www.bjstats.com. Using their Blackjack Counting Results Calculator for EV and SCORE I stumbled upon this.
GAme conditions: Single deck, H17 DOA, Penetration 35/52,Spread 1-3
1)Hi-Low with Ill 18 -- EV:1.03% SCORE:60.30(for 10K bankroll I beleive)
2)KO preffered: EV:1.03% SCORE:61.58
3)AO11 with Ill 18 -- EV:1.02% SCORE:62.92
4)AO11 with full indices
with Ace side count -- EV:1.40% SCORE:112.92
Finally assume that I play for about 100 hours with a trip to Reno every month.
There is a good chance I can do (2) without any errors , (3) with some errors
and with (4) I don't think I can remember all the 180 odd indices and use them effectively in present casino conditions.
Since I am a red chipper extra gains in using (4) over (2) will be in cents.
My confusion led to the fact that every where I read KO is not good for single deck and either A011 or H011 are good for single/double decks. But It's damn difficult to chat with PC and dealer while playing with AO11 and I am pretty
confident I can do that with KO.
To the experts out there which one should I choose?
A011 which has better gains or KO which is easy to implement in casinos?
Re: Choosing a counting system for Single deck
Posted by kansas on 28-Oct-2002 15:54:15 (#303)
A011 which has better gains or KO which is easy to implement in casinos?
Well, since you admit you don't think you can memorize the 180+ indexes in order to get the better gains of AOII, then why not choose a counting system you can use.
You could get even greater gains, in theory, by memorizing every card played and making decisions based on the exact remaining composition of the deck, but you can't do that either, so why worry about it?
As you already know, using the AOII with I18 gains a few cents. So is it worth a couple of bucks to use a multi-level, true counted, side count required system as compared to a single-level, no true count, no side count system?
Consider also that making a wrong mistake at the wrong time with the more complicated system could negate the few cents in profit you supposedly gain.
Re: Choosing a counting system for Single deck
Posted by aoko on 28-Oct-2002 16:21:03 (#304)
Thanks for your response.
Lets us say I add AO11 indices over a period ot time. Is it still worth to go for it?
Re: Choosing a counting system for Single deck
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Oct-2002 17:26:15 (#309)
**My responses are embedded -
I chose to go with AO11 and bought "Balckjack for Blood" by Bryce carlson. Practised AO11 for a month with just Ill 18 indices before hitting casinos in Reno. I am a red chipper with spreads of 1-3 or 1-4. I didn't do any Ace side counts and I experienced I was bit slow in TC conversion for playing strategy.I was up 60 units after playing for 12 hours last weekend.
**That, as I'm fond of telling people at the table, is just to give you false confidence!
**You are doing fine BUT you really don't need that 'ferrari' for putting around town. Also, the Blood betting schemes for 1-8D are WHOLEY INSUFFICIENT.
GAme conditions: Single deck, H17 DOA, Penetration 35/52,Spread 1-3
1)Hi-Low with Ill 18 -- EV:1.03% SCORE:60.30(for 10K bankroll I beleive)
2)KO preffered: EV:1.03% SCORE:61.58
3)AO11 with Ill 18 -- EV:1.02% SCORE:62.92
**Illustrates my point.
4)AO11 with full indices
with Ace side count -- EV:1.40% SCORE:112.92
**You CANNOT achieve this without an ace-secondary-count, Blood doesn't cover this!
Finally assume that I play for about 100 hours with a trip to Reno every month.
There is a good chance I can do (2) without any errors , (3) with some errors
and with (4) I don't think I can remember all the 180 odd indices and use them effectively in present casino conditions.
**KO full-preferred maybe your ticket... BUT, IF you are already comfortable w/AO2, you can SWAP the ace and 9 tag-values as shown below and be playing ZEN w/higher PE and BC than #3, you can even keep your current AO2 indices and add more.
tags shown 2-A
AO2: 1122210-1-20
ZEN: 11222100-2-1
To the experts out there which one should I choose?
A011 which has better gains or KO which is easy to implement in casinos?
Re: Choosing a counting system for Single deck
Posted by aoko on 28-Oct-2002 18:54:40 (#315)
Thanks for your response zg.
>> My responses are embedded.
I chose to go with AO11 and bought "Balckjack for Blood" by Bryce carlson. Practised AO11 for a month with just Ill 18 indices before hitting casinos in Reno. I am a red chipper with spreads of 1-3 or 1-4. I didn't do any Ace side counts and I experienced I was bit slow in TC conversion for playing strategy.I was up 60 units after playing for 12 hours last weekend.
**That, as I'm fond of telling people at the table, is just to give you false confidence!
>>I know its just positive varience I had experienced. Its got nothing to do
with what count I am using.
**You are doing fine BUT you really don't need that 'ferrari' for putting around town. Also, the Blood betting schemes for 1-8D are WHOLEY INSUFFICIENT.
>>I am using betting spreads wrt to TC's rather than the one given in BJFB.
GAme conditions: Single deck, H17 DOA, Penetration 35/52,Spread 1-3
1)Hi-Low with Ill 18 -- EV:1.03% SCORE:60.30(for 10K bankroll I beleive)
2)KO preffered: EV:1.03% SCORE:61.58
3)AO11 with Ill 18 -- EV:1.02% SCORE:62.92
**Illustrates my point.
4)AO11 with full indices
with Ace side count -- EV:1.40% SCORE:112.92
**You CANNOT achieve this without an ace-secondary-count, Blood doesn't cover this!
>> I can add ACE side count later If I decide to stick with AO11???
Finally assume that I play for about 100 hours with a trip to Reno every month.
There is a good chance I can do (2) without any errors , (3) with some errors
and with (4) I don't think I can remember all the 180 odd indices and use them effectively in present casino conditions.
**KO full-preferred maybe your ticket... BUT, IF you are already comfortable w/AO2, you can SWAP the ace and 9 tag-values as shown below and be playing ZEN w/higher PE and BC than #3, you can even keep your current AO2 indices and add more.
tags shown 2-A
AO2: 1122210-1-20
ZEN: 11222100-2-1
>> I am comfortable with just counting AO11 but not with TC conversion and correlating it to indices. Diff between ZEN and AO11 is with Ace side count only other than that both are similar. If I have to choose between ZEN and AO11
I will stick with AO11 since I spent a month practising it.
To the experts out there which one should I choose?
A011 which has better gains or KO which is easy to implement in casinos?
**KO-full, or the ZEN conversion... and start using a bigger spread. zg
>> Since my bankroll is 2k I can't go beyond 1-3 or 1-4. What's up with
this KO bashing on some websites which is a bit of concern for me to choose KO.
It took about 1 month for me to count(Ao11) down single to get some reasonable speed but with KO it took about 30 mins. Finally how much time do I need at tables to get reasonable confidence and speed with AO11.
Thanks,
AOKO
Re: Choosing a counting system for Single deck
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Oct-2002 21:47:28 (#316)
Where are you playing?
Re: Choosing a counting system for Single deck
Posted by aoko on 29-Oct-2002 10:23:26 (#323)
Where are you playing?
Zg, I play in Reno. Atlantis,peppermill,Boom town and some other casinos in nearby Sparks.
I am slowly leaning towardS AO11. What the heck? If I have to go to KO for some reasons its peice of cake.
I need your advice regarding which indices are important.
Apart from Ill 18 I would like to rememeber all the positive indices
in the following order.
Hard standing
Hard doubling
Soft doubling
Pair splitting.
Any suggestions please let me know.
THanks,
Re: Choosing a counting system for Single deck
Posted by lucky on 29-Oct-2002 10:42:03 (#324)
s.d NOT the same these days especially with the added negative rules.
Most pros avoiding sd for other quality games with stay 17,doa,
and double on two,and surrender.You will lack these all
these positive rules,and get serious heat.
Re: Choosing a counting system for Single deck
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Oct-2002 12:26:01 (#325)
Luck is correct, your myopism on high PE, and limited spreads is NOT entirely valid with today's conditions, including Reno's 1Ds. zg
Re: Choosing a counting system for Single deck
Posted by aoko on 29-Oct-2002 12:45:06 (#326)
zg, In Reno I don't think there are any great double deck or shoe games
that luck has mentioned. For me best bet for now is single deck, H17 DOA
Re: Choosing a counting (longer)
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Oct-2002 13:08:14 (#327)
In Reno there are several good 1Ds, the ones you mentioned, BUT also the Sundowner w/D9 and push21, select D10 tables like HarrahsHL(*) - D10 1Ds require deeper pene and/or bigger spread but beatable. The SilverLegacy DOA 2Ds were great last time I looked, and I'd even play the D9 and D10 2Ds there and elswhere with the right spread and/or pene. In other words, even in Reno 1D DOA is NOT a panacea.
Btw, does that Alamo truckstop still offer that great 1D DAS,LS game?
THE MOST IMPORTANT INFO I GAVE YOU WAS THAT WITHOUT A ACE-SECONDARY COUNT YOU CANNOT DERIVE THE POWER YOU SEEK FROM AO2. Further AO2 is slightly skewed because of its incorporation of 9s in the primary. Therefore, swap the Ace and 9 tag values NOW or switch to KO full-preferred and don't look back. zg
(*) In fall of 2000 I had the unexpected pleasure of catching the mythic Ian Anderson in usual-extreme form at Reno HarrahsHL D10 - he was playing 3hands consistent and getting 4rounds consistent 3x$300 to 3x$900 (ie, 80% pene, no heat, 1-3) his 'act was that of an aged British rock-mgr type, Ozzie Osbourne accent and dutch-boy haircut w/an Austin Powers-type ruffles shirt/suit.
Re: Choosing a counting
Posted by aoko on 29-Oct-2002 13:20:26 (#328)
>>THE MOST IMPORTANT INFO I GAVE YOU WAS THAT WITHOUT A ACE-SECONDARY COUNT YOU CANNOT DERIVE THE POWER YOU SEEK FROM AO2. Further AO2 is slightly skewed because of its incorporation of 9s in the primary. Therefore, swap the Ace and 9 tag values NOW or switch to KO full-preferred and don't look back. zg
ZG, If I swap Ace and 9 tag values can I still use AO11 indices?
Thanks,
Re: Choosing a counting
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Oct-2002 13:31:51 (#329)
>> If I swap Ace and 9 tag values can I still use AO11 indices? <<
-----------------------
YES! zg
Re: Choosing a counting(question to zg)
Posted by aoko on 30-Oct-2002 15:24:19 (#351)
>> If I swap Ace and 9 tag values can I still use AO11 indices? <<
-----------------------
YES! zg
In that case the true count has to be at half deck level rather than an full deck. I think ZEn true count conversion is at half deck level and AO11 is at full deck. What do you think zg assuming that I use ZEN with AO11 indices.
If it's possible can you mail me ZEN indices for single(H17) and double decks?
Thanks,
Re: Choosing a TC-CALIBRATION
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Oct-2002 15:45:50 (#355)
>>In that case the true count has to be at half deck level rather than an full deck. I think ZEn true count conversion is at half deck level and AO11 is at full deck. What do you think zg assuming that I use ZEN with AO11 indices.<<
----------------
Actually, the originalZEN was a 1DTC, whereas the revisedZEN is a 1/4DTC. I personally use a 1DTC w/myZEN - if your AO2 i# are calibrated for 1DTC then use a 1DTC. In the final analysis the calibration of a given system's i# to a particular deck-levelTC is a personal matter, notwithstanding the authoring party's predelection.
--> if your AO2 i# are calibrated for 1DTC then use a 1DTC <-- zg
zg, how accurate are AO #'s for ZEN? (NM)
Posted by aoko on 30-Oct-2002 17:11:55 (#362)
Accurate ENOUGH...
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Oct-2002 18:02:29 (#363)
...at least to start OR forever - and the system will be STRONGER than AO2 w/o Ace-sidecount. zg
What about betting strategy? (NM)
Posted by aoko on 30-Oct-2002 20:20:56 (#367)
Re: What about betting strategy?
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Oct-2002 22:05:25 (#369)
start a new thread. zg
Thank you Eliot
Posted by DV Cellini on 28-Oct-2002 18:10:34 (#312)
This is by far the best BJ site (with the most honorable host) I've ever had the pleasure to post on!
Thank you for your kindness Eliot! I was starting to lose faith!
I now need to settle some scores on those 'other sites' loaded with those immature gun slinger type posters.
Welcome!
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Oct-2002 18:26:56 (#313)
Welcome to this board.
I would ask that you introduce yourself to those who may not know you.
We look forward to your very unique perspective on the issues.
--Mayor
A small plug
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Oct-2002 22:38:24 (#317)
Mr. Cellini's book:
http://www.greatstuff4gamblers.com/productdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=1294
Re: A small plug
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Oct-2002 00:13:58 (#319)
I assume that FRS is covered, how about the "non-obvious-relationship" analysis? zg
Re: A small plug and a healthy price!
Posted by Learning to count on 29-Oct-2002 13:51:45 (#331)
Is there a paper back! Does someone want to donate a copy to the card counters relief fund. Sounds like an interesting book but whew big bucks. Any way we here at card counter.com can get a discount too! Ltc
web site is slow and weird today Mayor? (NM)
Posted by learning to count on 29-Oct-2002 13:54:45 (#332)
Re: web site is slow and weird today Mayor?
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Oct-2002 13:59:36 (#333)
I have not noticed the slowness locally here.
I am sorry for your problems. The server is located in a small town in SouthEast Ohio, and when it rains there the cables (which run through a ditch) get wet, and then who knows what... but it is a free service for me to use (I helped start that ISP and am a partial owner to this day).
--Mayor
Re: web site is slow and weird today Mayor?
Posted by Poet on 29-Oct-2002 14:43:11 (#334)
At the moment it is running fine for me in Northern Calif. Last night I noticed some delays, but they were intermittent. 'probably caused by ZG's subject (anti-)matter.
Re: web site is slow and weird today Mayor?
Posted by branmuffin on 29-Oct-2002 19:41:50 (#341)
I can attest to wet weather effecting connectivity.
I have a frame relay-line between me and my broker in austin,tx that they pay for 800 bucks a month.The line runs through manhole below a road that borders the Indian River/Intercoastal...when it rains constant 3-4 days..I get timouts and increased latency problems ..new repeaters or not.
Rules & conditions in France (Nice/Monaco)
Posted by ukcounter on 29-Oct-2002 05:09:30 (#320)
Hi. I am going to Nice/Monaco this week for the first time.
Can any one advise of BJ rule differences compared with the UK ?
Info on casinos, membership, attire, etiquette, decks, penetration etc. would be appreciated.
many thanks,
Off to see the wizard
Posted by Biff on 29-Oct-2002 09:18:47 (#321)
Well today is the start of my 33 week attack. I must admit that I am a bit nervous as have not played seriously for about 8 months and as stated on past posts my last 10 - 12 sessions where not alot of fun.
Starting with SD game in casino I consider friendly, good penetration, rules etc. so really expect to have winning session but like I said I am a bit nervous. (can't get old neg SD out of my mind) Am starting out playing red 10 - 50 which is down from my normal green action but again this is where my game plan says to start to reach goal of $ 30,000 bankroll.
Hope the BJ God is smiling on me.
Bon Voyage!
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Oct-2002 09:20:06 (#322)
Good cards to you! I wish you well on your journey, keep us posted!
--Mayor
Re: Off to see the wizard
Posted by ZOD on 29-Oct-2002 19:19:26 (#340)
Best of luck. Keep us informed of your progress.
ZOD
Re: Off to see the wizard
Posted by branmuffin on 29-Oct-2002 19:53:34 (#342)
Good luck Bro.Be honest with your updates.Focus on your game when you're playing but do something healty for 2/3 hours a day to counter the monotony and stress and where you can completely take your focus OFF your game .When I lived in AC and playing poker for a living I would run 4 miles on the Boardwalk everynight at 10-11pm and then go in and play till 6/7 am. And I would also see alot of movies. If you're traveling you can jog or use treadmills or eliptical trainers found in any casino's exercise room.If your in Tunica ..jog along the levees .If you are in Vegas every decent gym is open 24 hrz.
Mix it up and you will not burn out so quickly and your game focus will be the better for it.
Who Regulates Offshore??
Posted by nocountfool on 29-Oct-2002 16:07:01 (#335)
I play alot offshore. Two boats nearby. One I win consistently, the other I lose consistently. Over a span of nearly 100 trips, the "losing boat" beats me over 78%, the "winning boat" I've won almost 73% of trips. This is bugging me. I'm the same player- play the same game, same bankroll. The only difference in rules, is the losing boat has no surrender. I don't use it anyway so its not a factor.
They don't let the players see the cards "spread" before the 8 deck shoe is filled (No one is allowed in the casino table area before or after the games. I suspect a little monkeying with the decks. Any advice? (Other than don't play there...) One player long ago asked to see the end of the shoe, even after playing time was over. He was asked to never return. If they ARE cheating the players, something must be done.
Re: Who Regulates Offshore??
Posted by kansas on 29-Oct-2002 16:12:18 (#336)
Want to buy a bridge?
Why don't you use "Surrender"?
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Oct-2002 16:47:19 (#337)
Why don't you use "Surrender"? It is the BEST single tool in the player's arsenal after penetration.
As for regulating, I would contact the state gaming board, and file a complaint, if you really suspect there is something fishy on that boats.
--Mayor
Re: Why don't you use "Surrender"?
Posted by nocountfool on 29-Oct-2002 22:00:23 (#344)
That's the problem. There is no state Gaming commission in federal waters. (There are no casinos in my state. Its a "loophole cruise"
RE: Surrender - I should have said I "seldom" use it. I do on occasion with a very low count, or a high bet.
How much do you want for the bridge? Do you take chips?
Short deck?...
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Oct-2002 16:55:52 (#338)
Short deck?... is there a statistical method for quickly detirmining that a given #decks is missing cards? zg
Re: Short deck?...
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Oct-2002 17:13:13 (#339)
Not an easy way, but one can certainly do exact counts, how many cards played, how many were face cards. The ratio should coverge to 4/13, of course, with a normal distribution on either side. I am sure that one evenings worth of measurements could determine the probability the deck was short.
If it is an 8 deck game, try and get as deep as you can consistently and still keep the counts. If you consistently can get the numbers for 6 out of 8 decks, (312 cards played, expect 96 face cards) then send them to me. I would only need about 10-15 such measurements.
If you want to just count out the first deck of each shoe, I would need about 100 of those. Of the first 52 cards played, how many are face cards?
If you take down this data and send it my way, I will give you my "statistical" opinion.
--Mayor
Re: Short deck?...
Posted by lifesabet on 30-Oct-2002 15:27:43 (#352)
Short deck you say? Not short at all. 52 cards per deck guaranteed, though we may have replaced a couple aces with fives!
Quite scarry to contemplate mucking with the deck, but Im against regulation. Its a false sense of security. It didnt much help enron holders. It destroyed sports action in nevada. Regulation by definition is a conflict of interests.
Being offshore for the past few years there is usually a small casino nearby. Though Im not a big player, I always enjoy the casinos for the decent food, good service, environment, and seeing how the house deals with their players.
On a few occasions, I saw some big players sit down, demand a flip of the entire shoe, riffle through, and even request brand new shrink wrapped decks. Ive never seen the casino personnel have a problem with this. They knew they were unregulated, they knew the player had his doubts, and they certainly had no problem easing his suspicions and getting back to action. It usually caught the attention of everyone in the pit, and Im sure it made everyone feel much better. If a table is not busy, I cannot imagine why a casino would not want to do this for their players. The edge is in their favor if they play fair and they always reserve the right to change their rule-cards.
If I had asked to check the deck, and subsequently been asked to depart, Id make sure I was outside the dock with a picket sign the next day. If anything funny had been going on, it would certainly be stopped, and Id do my best to tell any patrons to ask to see the cards.
Thats a joke. Im surprised to hear that story.
Re: Short deck?...
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Oct-2002 18:26:31 (#364)
Again, statistical sampling would easily spot this using the method above.
I used to do crowd estimation using a similar theme. This is a standard statistical test, and is quite reliable.
--Mayor
Easy Shuffle-Tracking - CT 101
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Oct-2002 21:45:17 (#343)
The easiest (original) form of shuffle-tracking (circa '81) is known by various names - Malmuth in BJEssays calls it 'Card Domination' and provides an excellent treatment - its quite easy, though the shuffles that are susceptiple by it are few and far between - notwithstanding, I know of some SoCal and NV casinos that are real beauts for this - here is the easy to perform methodlogy. zg
--------------------------
CT 101 -
(cutoffs tracking)
(Assumes 6Ds, shufflecard @ 1.5Ds, A BALANCED COUNT, and that cutoffs are placed intact on top of the discards and remain in relative cohesion)
Example A
At shuffle card the RC is +15, the 1.5D cutoff is 'diluted' (mixed) with 1.5Ds (+15 -5 = +10), cut the 3D 'cutoff dilute' to the TOP and play 'as though' you have a 3D game with 95%% penetration and +10 initial RC. At the end of 3Ds subtract -10 from your RC and proceed to shuffle card.
Example B
At shuffle card the RC is -15, the 1.5D cutoff is 'diluted' (mixed) with 1.5Ds (-15 +5 = -10), cut the 3D 'cutoff dilute' to the BOTTOM and play 'as though' you have a 3D game with 95% penetration and +10 initial RC. At the end of 3Ds subtract -10 from your RC and proceed to shuffle card.
Example C
At shuffle card the RC is 0, the 1.5D cutoff is 'diluted' (mixed) with 1.5Ds (0 + 0 = 0), cut the 3D 'cutoff dilute' to the BOTTOM and play 'as though' you have a 3D game with 95%% penetration and an initial RC of 0.
The 3 principal source texts for CT and more complex forms of shuffle tracking are Malmuth's BJEssays, Snyder's Blackbelt in BJ, and GeoC's Shuffle Tracking for Beginners. All three recommend 'mapping' the shuffle using cards with the cutoffs' edges blackened and performing the house shuffle. There is now a
Birth of a Couponero
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Oct-2002 22:36:49 (#345)
CCCafe Message: 10507 of 17032
From: zengrifter
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 1:42 am
Subject: Grifter Couponomy
The 4 day joint bank had ended 3 days previously,
and the Israelie teammate left the nite before - the
results were positive, but lackluster, so I decided to
play on solo, smaller stakes for an undetirmined
length.
Playing $10units causes me more barrings and exposure
than winning with $100units, because I jump my bets
agressively without cover and exit the neg-counts ruthlessly
to partially make up for the lower winrate.
On this graveshift of question I am toast at most of
the downtown joints - but still appreciated at the
Golden Gate where my 0-125 spread overcomes an otherwise
mediocre 2D h17 60% game (I am finding that many grave
shifts deal deeper than swing and such is true at the
GGate).
I know I'm still appreciated when I jump
to $125, catch a BJ, and the not-unattractive
shift-boss-mama shouts "yeah Jonny!" I tell her with a
wink, not to encourage my compulsive reckless
tendencies.
A farmer from South Dakota sits down to play and
pulls out a coupon book, whereupon I ask him if thats
the Anthony Curtis LVAdvisor book with the 2-1 BJs
for an hour coupon - he indicates affirmatively, and
in the next breath he is rudely informed by the PC that the 1
hour 2-1 BJ coupon ($25 max bet) is only good between
12noon and midnight, and he leaves for the airport at 11:30am
- so I offer to buy it and he points out that the
coupon must remain in the book untill used - so he sells
me the whole book - the Famous LVA POV (Pocketbook
Of Values) for his subscription price of
$40.
Making a mental note NOT to use the powerful GGate
coupon when the shift mgmt that saw me buy it is on duty
(my blatant acquisition illicited
frowns).
Perusing the POV over a GGate comp breakfast I see why its
the undisputed king of LV coupon books - 8 or 9
quality BJ coupons ($25 bets) and more if you count
$5-$10 matchplays and free Aces.
First stop The Plaza for my $5 and $25 match plays - I try to
play both, the $5 coupon on the Royal Match side bet, but
NO, I'm told one at a time - I win both and the $25
plaY turned into a doubledown.
Next stop Lady Luck for a $25 free Ace. I remember Curtis
advising me at one of our 'Barfarkel RatPak' dinners that
if I ever get a free Ace, use it in conjunction
with a 'Wheel of Madness' side bet - but NO I'm told
that its no longer allowed. My $25 free Ace catches a
9 and I tie the dealer's hard 20... BUT LOOK, the
dealer mistakenly leaves my Ace coupon in play and I
effectively get ANOTHER free Ace, this time for BJ!
Hahahahahahha
I'm anxious to use the 2-1 GGate supercoup, but it
isn't time yet so I play at FitzG's for a few hours -
playing through the shift change I am aware of the funny
looks from the pitcritters, but cannot tell if its my
blatant ruthless jumpspread exiting, or my ridiculous not
so act-act. I inquire a couple of times to the asst.
shift boss from Manila "have you guys had enough yet?"
to which she indicates not yet - she says that I was
up now down and I should be winning - I tell her
that I am doing the 'Ferdinand Shuffle', "whats dat"
she bites, "one step forward and two kick backs!"
Up a few hundred my grandstand play of the session
is a jump to two max bets (I will not embarrass
myself by re-stating how much such max bets are)
doubling the first I make 21, the second hand is A9 and
the count more than ample to venture a double against
dealer's 4 - "whaaaa rrr you crazy" was the dealer's
comment as she proceded to slap her 14 with a 2 then a 5
(I caught an 8) push one lose one - "Maybel, you
just made me look like the village idiot!" I extolled
her - "you don't need me for that, hon!" she snapped
back with a smile. Huuhhh no respect at all, I did my
best Rodney and slammed two more max bets out, lost
them both and asked the pitcritter sheepishly - "sure
you guys haven't had enough?"
Checking the time, it was time to play the GGate
soupercoup.
Re: Birth of a Couponero (CONT)
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Oct-2002 22:47:45 (#346)
I ARRIVE at GGate shortly after the swing shift change -
no familiar pitcritters - I asked the pitmgr if I should
remove the coup, she time-stamped it and wrote my hour
deadline on top - before she returned I had my first BJ betting
2hands of $25 (the max allowed for the 2-1 pay) - the BJ
was on my second hand and after I was paid the PC
remembered that if the coup player plays 2hands the bonus is
only on BJ from the 1st hand - I altered my betting
tactics, playing $25-50 on hand #1 and $15-30 on hand #2 -
the 2nd BJ came on hand#1 and I promptly recieved the
full 2-1 paY ON $50!! (a mis-pay hahahahahahah)
i HAD MADE A CALCULATED ERROR BY sitting at the 1D table,
now full, with incredibly slow and illiterate players, when
I tried to speed them up by proclaiming my "couponic souvergnty"
I was told F**K YOUR COUPON! "Huuuuhh no respect at all" I 'Rodneyed'!
At this point an interesting female sat next to first base -
she also had a time-stamped LVA coup - I smiled and waved my coup
and she replied with the thumbs up - minutes later she was at my
side and complaining that the werewolvish player at 2nd base ("F**K
your coup") was practically sitting on her lap.
Painfully aware of the time, I still asked her if she knew
Anthony Curtis - she was an administrator with the San Bernadino
Supertendent of Schools and PROUD to be one of Curtis' first
40 members - wow!
She had been betting only $5-10 per hand - I moved us to the
adjacent 2D table where we would be alone and emphasized that we play
FAST (I had ascertained that she was close to basic
strategy) - I was up $300 and shoved a small pile of chips
close to her - "bet $25 every hand, we'll work it out
afterwards," I instructed in hushed tones.
We were a riot, playing at breakneck speed - she was
shouting like it was the craps table YES! YES! YES! (or a bed
perhaps) - I was playing 2 hands of $25 - we were
definetly in the StDv right-of-way.
She caught her last BJ with only seconds left and then we
went to the snackbar for a POV free shrimp cocktail and to
divide our spoils - we were up $800 and I handed her $125 and she
refused to take more than $100 - "pleasure doing business
with you, maam."
By now I am really begining to feel like a full fledged COUPONERO!
ATTACK OF THE COUPONERO! HAHAHAHAH
The next day I took a callfrom retired businessman - Mike - he
had played HO1 since the good old days of Atlantic City's early
surrender rule. We agreed to meet for breakfast at
AzCharly's - Mike had developed a fondness for SuperFun21,
but he had no sense of the inherrently larger
housEdge at that game - I was able to give him some
pointers and a promise to send him the Wo'Odds SFBS (see
previous CCCafe discussion of SF21. After breakfast Mike
agreed to take me on a 'coupon run to hit all of the
remaining ($25) BJ coups in my book - we would be stopping at ALL of
the dreaded Coast casinos and select Stations - ALL
of the remaining coups were of the same ilk: 3-1 pay
on 1st BJ. What follows is a summary of those plays
First stop, SunCoast, the PC immediately knew of the
coupon and I commenced playing two hands of $50 (the 3-1
applies only to the first $25 per hand) - hitting the BJ
I am up $250 at the table, whereupon I drop to a
$10- 2x$75 scheme for a few minutes of courtesy play,
lost $100, netted $150.
At BarbaryCoast I'm up $550 after 15 min of patiently awaiting
my first natural - when I flipped it over proclaiming "there it is!",
the boss sneered, "guess you got what you came for" - I
replied, "Yes! another happy customer, see you next year
when the next coupon-book comes out" and did an exit, stage left.
At GoldCoast I'm disappointed to see my BJ on my first hand,
and then proceed to lose $200 hmmm.... Thanks to Mike's playfull
reminders I resolve NOT to stay and fight despite decent
(for a Coast club) playing conditions.
The last Coast stop is the Orleans where I regain my $200 deposit at
GCoast plus $150, gone in 15 min!
On to our final stops in Henderson - At SunsetSta I have two coups
(did I mention that the teacher lady from the GGate gave
me her Sunset coup? "just pretend to tear it out
like this" she demonstrated an advanced LVA subscriber
tactic) - I mock tear out my first coup, the PC confirms
to the dealer "3-1 on his first BJ" - starting with
2hands of $50 at a semi-full table I drop to 1hand of
$50 when the count tanks, then it shoots upward again
and I go to 1hand of $75 and catch the natural, the
Asian lady playing to my right asks softly, "what will
they pay you?" and I whisper "I don't know yet" and
then the dealer proceeds to pay 3-1 ON THE WHOLE $75!
Hahahahahahahahah - Attack of the Coupenero!
I notice a valuable oddity - the Sunset coup, unlike the others,
only specifies the $25 max restriction in small print.
Previously I had had another pleasant coup experience at
Sunset thanks to 'OrangeCountyKO', who had devised a way
to collect 100s of 2-1 BJ coupons that the Sunset
sent out to locals as junk mail - OCKO had simply gone
to several large apartment complexes and showed a
maintence man what he was looking for that most people
would throw out right at the mail bin, and a small cash
offer. The coups said (in small print) "one to a
customer, $25 max bet" but I managed to play 10 of them on
one shift in the course of barely 2hrs, some
multiples at a single table and on two I was paid the full
bonus on more than $25 Hahahahahahaha!
Despite the $75 full bonus pay, I am down $150 after playing the
Sunset coup.
Last stop is the Fiesta (formerly The Reserve) -
I was partial to the Reserve and for my money Stations
wrecked the joint, odd thing is that when it was an African themed
club it had a good mexican restaurant, but no more, not now that it is a
mexican themed club - up $450 in barely 15 min, I catch my first BJ
and my other hand reveals ANOTHER BJ and I instantly proclaim
"if you get 2 BJs at the same time the 3-1 bonus is paid on both!"
I tried to keep a straight face while dealer and PC both carefully
read and reread the smaller print to verify what I had proclaimed
while my simultaneous naturals rested like bagged
trophy game, twice I interjected off-topic questions
like "where's the mexican restauraunt, two for the
mexican restaurant, please." I finally let them off the
hook with a shrug "OK, I must have misread it, so what
is the bonus for simultaneous BJs?" to which the
floorman deadpanned a quizical Idunno look - "OK, I get it" I
announced to the several players "the odds of getting 2 BJs
at the same time is over 600-1 and the bastards just
paid me 3-2!" (except for my coupon, of course!)
Hahahahaaha!!
For the first, but not last time I let out the hearty couponero
laugh at the table as I colored, but the count was high so I
proceeded to bet a black chip, then another, total take at this
table over $800 - I join Mike at the SF21 table, AND THE LIGHT GOES ON!
- next time I play a 3-1 coup try to play it at SF21, the edge
has got to be over 9%! (the 3-1s at regular BJ are worth nearly 7%)
PLAY THE 3-1 COUP AT SF21 AND GIVE'EM A DOSE OF THEIR OWN MEDICINE,
YAA BABY YAA! Playing non-coup SF21 with Mike I drop $200 - net at
Fiesta is $600.
Total win for CAD2 (CouponeroAttack day 2) $1200, total
win off my first POV is nearly $2000, a couponero is born,
HAHAHAHAHAHAH !
e n d
the only thing I can say is...
Posted by learning to count on 30-Oct-2002 13:09:37 (#348)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Great story. See you in Vegas next week!
Re: Birth of a Couponero (CONT)
Posted by Reddevil on 30-Oct-2002 19:09:43 (#365)
Those posts were great. I just got the POV and cant wait to go on a Couponero tear through Vegas
-Red
Variance happens
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Oct-2002 19:31:19 (#366)
Beware!
My last POV I did not win a single match coupon, and lost $400 at GG.
Variance happens.
--Mayor
Re: Variance happens
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Oct-2002 21:50:46 (#368)
Two different users of the Ggate 1hr 2-1 played similary at different tables, one rec'd 1BJ and the other rec'd 17BJs - you guessed it, the 1BJguy won $450 and the 17BJguy lost $1000. As Lawerence Revere used to say "If gambling didn't run extreme, there would be no gambling!" zg
Re: Variance happens
Posted by Reddevil on 31-Oct-2002 00:38:25 (#373)
Thanks for the warnings, I'll let you all know how it turns out for me
-Red
Re: Variance NOTES-Ggate
Posted by zengrifter on 31-Oct-2002 00:56:03 (#374)
NOTES VIA WIRELESS MESSAGING -
zg, side note: just finished up at gg. made 500. you're right, the coupons are like little nitro boosters. I blew through an hour flat betting 25 by 2, with the occaisional parlay. Then went back to conventional counting, wow... what a diff! syph
Introduction to Memory Techniques
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Oct-2002 01:40:10 (#347)
From memorizing indices to advanced Ace-sequencing, this site offers the full gamut of "mnemonic devices" a virtual how-to of advanced and simple memory techniques that can prove useful in BJ and all areas. zg
---------------------------------
Introduction to Memory Techniques
by James Manktelow
http://www.demon.co.uk/mindtool/memory.html
Mnemonics are methods for remembering information that is otherwise
quite difficult to recall. A very simple example of a mnemonic is
the '30 days hath September' rhyme. The basic principle of mnemonics,
is to use as many of the best functions of the human brain as
possible to code information.
The human brain evolved to code and interpret complex stimuli -
images, colour, structure, sounds, smells, tastes, touch, spatial
awareness, emotion, and language - using them to make sophisticated
interpretations of the environment. Human memory is made up of all
these features.
Typically, however, information presented to be remembered is from
one source - normally words on a page. While language, words on a
page, reflects one of the most important aspects of human evolution,
it is only one of the many skills and resources available to the
human mind.
Using Your Whole Mind To Remember
Mnemonics seek to use all of these resources. By coding language and
numbers in sophisticated, striking images which flow into other
strong images, we can accurately and reliably code both information
and the structure of information to be easily recalled later.
This section of Mind Tools seeks to show you the techniques that
enable you to use all of your mind to remember information.
Layout of the Memory Techniques Section
The initial articles explain the fundamentals of use of mnemonics,
and how to use them most effectively. These are complemented by
general articles giving the essential background to the use of memory
techniques.
The next section discusses many of the most effective memory
techniques currently available. Many are quite simple and easy to
understand and use. Others are more sophisticated, and require a
significant investment of time before their huge potentials can be
realised. Mind Tools will score these, indicating their relative
power and difficulty. It is for you to use these indicators to select
the most appropriate strategies for your use. The best approach to
this area may be to visit it several times, learning a different
memory technique on each visit, and applying and experimenting with
it before returning on the next visit to learn a different technique.
The final section takes a functional approach to memory techniques,
suggesting strategies to apply in various fields. Some techniques,
particularly those relating to language acquisition, exam/subject
study, and remembering names are truly remarkable and important.
Others, such as the ability to remember the order of a pack of cards,
are merely amusing sidelines (unless you are a keen card-player!).
Enjoy using Mind Tools memory techniques section: your use of your
memory may well amaze you!
http://www.demon.co.uk/mindtool/memory.html
"Red chippers can't afford to play"
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Oct-2002 14:13:45 (#349)
A Different Perspective
Posted By: MathProf
bj21
Often I have seen it said that "red chippers cannot afford to tip". I don't agree with that approach.
Let's face it, red chippers can't afford to play. If you look at all the expenses that are needed to play BJ, including travel expenses, books, software, etc, there is simply no way that a red chipper can make money on the game.
The fact is that red-chippers are playing for a hobby, and these other expenses are considered hobby expenses. Why not treat dealer tips the same way.
I don't see why someone would be willing to spend $100 to drive to a session worth $30 of EV, and accept $70 of net expenses, but then be unwilling to spend $5 tipping the dealers.
I do agree that you shouldn't over-tip. But throwing the dealers a red chip after sessions where you win $100 is not going to break you. Or betting a buck every now and then for the dealer, during a winning session.
I agree that you will make more money by not tipping. But you would also make more money working in McDonalds.
Re: "Red chippers can't afford to play"
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Oct-2002 14:41:07 (#350)
I agree, and have posted these thoughts in my essays.
Tip if you aren't playing for profit! Absolutely!
--Mayor
Re: "Red chippers can't afford ...IS WHY
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Oct-2002 15:37:33 (#354)
This is why I recommend that smallBRs should be played as high RoR relenishible funds - its important to get to the $25u level ASAP. zg
Re: "Red Chipper" disagrees
Posted by Sonny on 30-Oct-2002 16:59:10 (#360)
I agree with the Grifter in that any player wanting to "go pro" should definately try to get to the green chip level ASAP, but it's a different story for most of us Red Chippers.
I am a "recreational player", which means that I have a seperate BR that I use ONLY for blackjack. I don't use it for hotels, tipping, meals, or any other expenses. I save my "vacation funds" for that. This way my bankroll is free to grow as I win without being drained by expenses. If I hit a losing streak, I just refill my BR with a little overtime money from my job. This lets me play with a slightly higher ROR that most professionals would feel comfortable with, so getting the big bets out on such a small scale is no problem.
Most importatnly, my BR is NOT a savings account. If I lose it all, I am not financially ruined. It is simply "fun money" that I use to get free drinks and comps with. I don't play blackjack in order to earn money, I do it strictly to have fun while on vacation. I count cards in order to maximize my earning potential, which in turn maximizes the longevity of my play. Think of it as a "blackjack retirement account" if you will.
For these reasons, I believe that red chippers can easily stay in the game despite the relatively small earnings and tremendious fluctuations. In my case, Grifter was right in that I am a "hobby" player, but I believe that red chippers can still afford to play as long as they play appropriately.
-Sonny-
Re: "Red Chipper" disagrees
Posted by phantom007 on 31-Oct-2002 02:01:03 (#376)
If you are in BJ as a Business, then tipping should be treated like Taxes, none paid when possible, and the Minimum when you must...no business will survive long-term with expenses exceeding income (unless you are a major corporation, in which case you just print and sell more shares).
However, agree that "giving back" a % of profits can be done with minimal chance of ruin, especially if one includes comps and entertainment in the Win Column. Further, insurance is needed when you are in business...life, health, liability, work-comp, theft, errors & ommissions...etc., etc., etc.
Advantage Players need "Counter Insurance". When I have been caught counting, it is usually by the Dealer. In a recent trip, a Beginner asked the Dealer when she should take the Insurance Bet. Pointing to me, the Dealer said "Only when he does." But since my premium was paid-up, i.e., reasonable tipping, the game went on.
Getting caught by a dealer
Posted by Coug Fan on 01-Nov-2002 18:30:52 (#450)
I know what you mean. Recently, a dealer made me as a counter. I insured a 20 and a stiff with my max bet out, and the dealer checked... green light. Then she looked at me and said, "no, I must have it". Sure enough, she slid it in again and the red light went on. Count tanked two hands later, I did not insure my (now one hand) of 20. I felt obliged to make the required "you can't have it two times in a row" comment, but she just smiled and said, "the odds don't look too good this time, do they."
The kicker came after the shuffle. I had pushed my chips out to color-up and had announced that I was leaving. She said "are you sure you want to do that. Look at this" and she proceeded to place the cut card at 90%+ pen (7.5/8). I did not feel comfortable "coming out of the closet" so I pretended to not know what she was talking about as I colored up and left.
Royal Caribbean Cruise BJ
Posted by darksun on 30-Oct-2002 16:13:17 (#357)
Hi all,
First time posting =) Been reading for a few months now
I have been learning advantage play for about 4 months now. My initial plan was to be sharp by my 21st bday in June of '03.
Lucky for me, I'm taking a short 3 day royal caribbean cruise on the 8th. Fortunately I am old enough to play bj in their casino. Even though I am not as sharp as I want to be, I have been practicing for almost 2 hours a day since I built my bj table and I want to have a trial run on the cruise. I estimate that the conditions will be poor due the lack of competition, but I am looking for some actual conditions. So if anyone can tell me what the bj is like at sea, I would really appreciate it.
thanks,
Re: Royal Caribbean Cruise BJ
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Oct-2002 16:28:03 (#358)
I don't have exact rules-conditions, but its likely to be poor shoe games, so plan to 'wong-in' at +counts and exit on -counts. How much$ will you bring to play/risk with? zg
Re: Royal Caribbean Cruise BJ
Posted by darksun on 30-Oct-2002 16:45:39 (#359)
about 200 dollars I'd say...I realize that's not enough for a red chip minimum, so part of the ideal conditions that i want is a game that is a 2 or 3 dollar min. If I wong in I might be able to survive at a 5 dollar table with only 200.
Re: Royal Caribbean Cruise BJ
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Oct-2002 17:02:11 (#361)
>>If I wong in I might be able to survive at a 5 dollar table with only 200<<
---------------
Re: Royal Caribbean Cruise BJ
Posted by phantom007 on 31-Oct-2002 01:39:35 (#375)
What happens if you get 86'd? Do you get read the Tresspass Act? Walk the plank? Bring a lifejacket and a Global Positioning Tracker just in case.
The things we do, Cover Ploy #94
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Oct-2002 22:39:57 (#370)
Subject: The things we do to get a good game!
There is a well known casino in LV that has no
tolerance for counters - The El Cortez is a real dive of a
joint, but features very good penetration SD action at times.
It is commonly believed by the hordes of red chip
counters that get the boot there that the EC is near
impossible for successful counting.
The El 'Commode' can and does tolerate bigger play with
max bets up to $200+ with a decent act and some esoteric-camo
- my own tipsy/snide inebriated act and combo of betting gambits
has worked there many times, on all 3 shifts tolerating
wins/losses of $1000+.
One of my proteges, with a youngish nerdy/counter appearance,
went all out one day to dress like a street bum - a
drugged-out speed-freak street bum, at my direction! his BR
consisted of individually crumbled 100s and 50s stuck into
different pockets - he practiced wild eye movements in the
mirror the night before and rehearsed bizzare/low-toned
self talk like "damn damn I knew they would do this to
me!" (eyes rolling upward) when losing a big bet, "ya
ya this is it - payback time" (eyes wide with
demonic smile) when winning a small bet.
He spread wildly from $10 - $150 with no heat on day shift
and won $700 in 2.5hrs proclaiming the 'Commode' to be a "candy
store" he said that the PCs (pit-critters aka bosses)
wouldn't go near him - I warned him not to get rolled on
the street when he left - his big problem upon
leaving was that no cabs wanted to stop for his dangerous
looking character.
He says that he is going to add another character to his repertoire -
a sluttishly flirtatious transvestite, winking at the PCs and
cooing "come talk to me baby!"
Which reminds me...
The last time I played the 'Commode,' I wandered
accross the street to the Western, a joint that makes the
EC look like a class act.
The break-in dealer was so slow that I was getting maybe 40 hands/hr
heads up! I had two PCs on me, one to watch me and one
to watch the dealer. I had $50 bet and caught 11, so
I happily threw out a $100 bill and told the dealer
"double for more" to which she turned to the pit and
shouted "double for more!" The asian PC ran over shaking
his finger at me, admonishing me in broken english
"sir no joke wi deela, no joke wi deela!" I looked up
earnestly and said "I wasn't joking."
Hobo-looking players with dollar bills coming and going were a
constant nuisance, and angered by my consistent advice to
each of them that they not play and go buy a meal
instead. "Dont you tell me, Ive been gambling for 30
years!" one retorted.
Finally I asked the asian PC if we could make my table a $10 limit -
he disdainfully admonished me again, "sir dis not Ceeza Palace,
you go Ceeza Palace!" I looked around in mock suprise
and asked "where the hell am I?"
I left that miserable place a $1000 loser! ZG
Re: The things we do, Cover Ploy #94
Posted by none on 30-Oct-2002 23:13:37 (#371)
Damn funny ZG! lmao! I just returned from my first trip to Las Vegas, and the way you tell things makes me feel as if I'm still there.
That is funny!!! (NM)
Posted by SammyBoy on 01-Nov-2002 15:53:15 (#446)
Re: That is funny!!! (NM)
Posted by John Nubro on 13-Nov-2002 16:57:49 (#617)
I stopped at the El Cortez s--thole a couple weeks ago for the first and
probably the last time. Every time I raised my bet from as little as
$10 to $20, the dealer shouted, and I mean shouted, "Check" for the
pit people to hear. What a seedy, unfriendly and often rude place!
Playing Blackjack On A Team
Posted by photanamo on 31-Oct-2002 00:31:33 (#372)
Playing Blackjack On A Team
by Henry Tamburin, published on Tuesday,
November 20 2001 BJ Insider
If you've been following the exploits of LV Pro in our Blackjack
Insider Newsletters, you are well aware that LV Pro (psuedonym for a
skilled card counter) sometimes plays blackjack with a team of
players. There are pros and some cons for doing this and I'll try to
explain them in this article.
What are Blackjack Teams?
Blackjack teams consist of a group of skilled card counters. These
are players who use a system to keep track of the cards that are
played so they know when the odds shift from player to dealer and
vice versa. When the odds favor the dealer, the counter bets small.
When the odds shift in his favor, he makes larger bets. By always
betting this way a card counter has a slight 1% mathematically
advantage over the casino which means in the long run, he will win
more money then lose. The trick however, is that counters must
disguise their betting skills from the ever present observation of
floor supervisors who get in the nasty habit of barring these skilled
players from playing in their casino.
When a group of card counters form a team, they pool their individual
bankrolls into one large bankroll (known as a joint bank). So what's
the big deal about combining bankrolls, you ask? Essentially every
player on the team can now use this one combined, large bankroll as
if it were his or her individual bankroll. This in turn allows the
team players to bet larger amounts of money with the same risk
compared to playing solo. And the greater amount of money that a card
counter can get on the table, the more money he or she stands to win.
This is what makes blackjack teams so attractive.
Example of Profit Potential of Teams
Player A plays solo with a $5,000 bankroll and wagers up to a $100
per hand when the advantage shifts in his favor. His earning
potential as a card counter is $25 per hour.
Player B joins Player A to form a team. Their combined bank is
$10,000 allowing each player to increase their maximum bet from $100
to $200. The team of two players profit potential is now $100 per
hour so each player averages $50 per hour profit, twice the earnings
compared to playing solo.
As a general rule the profit potential of a team of skilled players
is equal to the profit potential of each individual if playing solo
times the number of players on the team squared. So if a card counter
has the potential to earn $25 per hour playing blackjack, this is
what he could earn playing on a team.
Solo Earnings vs Individual Earnings on Team
$25/hr 2 $50/hr
$25/hr 3 $75/hr
$25/hr 4 $100/hr
$25/hr 5 $125/hr
The more members on the team the more money a card counter stands to
earn.
Earnings are Not Guaranteed
Even though a card counter has the advantage if he plays accurately
in games with good rules, this does not guarantee that he will win
every time he plays. The advantage that a card counter has is a long
term advantage which means over the course of one day, two days, a
week or even a few months a card counter can lose money. This is why
card counters keep a fairly large gap between the maximum bet they
will make on one hand and the amount of their bankroll. They need
this cushion in case they run into a negative swing where even though
they are playing accurately, the cards don't come their way and they
still lose. In fact the single reason why most "wanna-be" card
counters usually fail in their first year is because they are
undercapitalized and get wiped out.
Playing on a team sort of smoothes out the bumps in the road and
makes the negative swings more manageable and tolerable. Teams also
play more hands per hour compared to a solo player so they will get
into the "long run" a lot quicker. This means that the probability is
higher that a team of players will be ahead after playing x hours
compared to a solo player playing the same x hours.
Other Advantages of Team Play
The life of a card counter can be lonely especially when they are
losing. But when they are playing on a team and have a disastrous
losing day, members often provide support and sympathize with their
plight. There is also the possibility that even though one member of
a team lost, other team members have won. Secondly, having a group of
individuals trying to achieve the same goal (winning x amount of
money) often provided an uplifting psychology advantage. Thirdly,
team players are more apt to share intelligence about games with
better rules and penetration which makes winning easier for all team
members
Negatives of Blackjack Teams
Many teams run into personnel problems when a team member is
consistently losing and others believe he is cheating (in fact most
teams use random polygraphs to ensure honesty). Teams also need a
strong manager to establish the rules, the team conduct, do all the
accounting, and to ultimately make decisions that are in the best
interest of the entire team. And despite the best efforts of its
members there is always the chance that a teams bank can go broke
(even blackjack teams carry some risk). Or just as worse (like it
happened to LV Pro) you could be a winner but end up an overall loser
if you have to cover the losses of your teammates.
If you'd like to learn more about team play, I strongly encourage you
to read the 55 page manual by Rick Blaine, Blackjack Blueprint - How
to Operate a Blackjack Team.
Re: Playing Blackjack On A Team
Posted by The Mayor on 31-Oct-2002 05:41:40 (#388)
In general, if you post blackjack content from another site, please verify that you have the author's or web-site's administrator's permission for the repost.
Thanks!
--Mayor
Aye, Cap'n (NM)
Posted by photonamo on 02-Nov-2002 04:41:35 (#460)
How do you calculate your % advantage?
Posted by Computerilliterate on 31-Oct-2002 02:59:45 (#377)
Hey. I'm new to card counting. I hear talk about EV (expected value) and % advantage but I'd like to know how you calculate such things. Lets say I am betting 1 dollar and that is my unit. In 10000 hands, I make 100 units so I made 1 unit per 100 hands. Does this mean that I have a 1 % advantage over the casino if I consistently over a period of years make 1 unit per 100 hands? Or is it done by some formula dealing with wins and losses like you win 43 hands and lose 57 hands to the casino?
Perhaps The Mayor can address this Q? (NM)
Posted by zengrifter on 02-Nov-2002 06:19:31 (#461)
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