Blackjack Message Archive from CardCounter.com

At one time, the website CardCounter.com held an active message forum with many contributors. When the previous site owner planned to shut down the site, he allowed us to archive the messages here at BlackjackInfo. They are formatted as they originally appeared, but no further comments on threads are permitted. Also be aware that we have a much larger archive of messages over at the BlackjackInfo Forums.


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CardCounter.com Messages: Page 21

Threads 601 to 630

Brief LV Report
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 12-Jun-2003 12:21:52 (#4278)

Just back from LV. Major learning experience this time. First off, I was not used to single and double-deckers. They don't have them in my area. I did some drilling with the single deck before I left, and became comfortable with it within my first hour at the tables. The double decker was a bit less smooth for me. I had frequent brain farts while calculating TC's. A couple days of drills would have prevented this, I just hadn't realized how prevalent it was. Next time I'll be on top of it, for sure.

Synopsis:
17 hours at the tables.
Mostly Downtown single-deck, some double-deck, a couple times 6 deck.
Hi-lo I18.
Final Score... minus 53 units(Grrrrrr!).

Also, played about $45(face value) in matchplays and lost about $15 (Grrrrrr!). I didn't really log the coups. Some were for roulette and craps. However, I really found some good examples of the value of couponomy. I will exploit this as a suppliment to my play the next time I am in Vegas. I'll need to do a little research first to do it up right. Any advice here would be appreciated.

I was playing red chips for two and a half days. Absolutely nothing I could discern as heat. However, I did have one dealer who was counting. A woman doubled on an eleven and recieved a deuce. The dealer said "Whoa, into a plus five too". His count was correct.

The single drunkest person I have ever seen was playing next to me at one table. There was a drool stain down the front of his shirt (Very literally!). He was betting $125 in green on about every hand. He had trouble picking up his cards and was holding up the game in a big way. The guy next to him was adding up his hands for him. He was doubling on about anything and often won. After about 15 minutes I heard the PB say to the dealer: "We'll take care of him in a minute". Obviously wanting this guy's chips in the tray before they gave him the boot. It really sucks they let this guy play at all.

Bad things:
The Golden Nugget has 6 to 5 single deckers(Grrrrrr!). That ain't supposed to happen Downtown... is it?

The Golden Gate is putting much less corned beef in their sandwiches. This about broke my heart. But, the Sea-Monkey parfait is still as yummy as ever.

I lost money.

Good things:
This happened- Top bet out... dealer pulls Ace. The guy playing first and second spots doesn't put double bets out, as was required for playing two spots. We are dealt one card to each of our spots, I get a seven. The dealer catches the other players mistake and called the pitboss over who asked me if I wanted to play out my hand. I said "No". Dead hand was called. Count doesn't change and I pull a natural on the next hand. This was at the table with the counting dealer.

Hung out with old college friend.

Welp, See yall

Felix


Re: Brief LV Report
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-Jun-2003 07:59:44 (#4289)

Nice report. Yes it is very sad to see them work over a drunk dude. I have also seen a "drunk dude" work them over. This guys play must have told he he was no AP. They usually chip you up and hold it as the wheel you up to your "free" room to sleep it off.


Re: Brief LV Report
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 16-Jun-2003 07:06:35 (#4291)

Nope, If he were an AP he would have been brilliant. Just flat bet the green stacks.


Dateline NBC 'Betting On Mary'
Posted by V-man on 16-Jun-2003 20:21:38 (#4293)

Did anyone watch Dateline NBC 'Betting On Mary'? How can someone loose a million dollar playing at a $25 BJ table? Especially, Mary was a BJ dealer before and obviously she must be a better player than the average ploppy. Either she must have been betting at the high black or gone through quite a loosing streak!


Re: Dateline NBC 'Betting On Mary'
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Jun-2003 09:23:09 (#4297)

She was using John Patrick's BS!! grin


Cellini Is Back
Posted by SammyBoy on 17-Jun-2003 08:58:17 (#4295)

Does anyone know what happened? I read a few of his posts on another site, but must admit I have trouble understanding his "code talk". He must be Navajo or something. ;-)


Guess Who's Back
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Jun-2003 09:21:38 (#4296)

Back again

I'm Cellshady
The real Cellshady
All you other Cellshadies
Are just imitating so
Please stand up
Please stand up
Please stand up.....

Why ask here??


Why Not?
Posted by SammyBoy on 17-Jun-2003 14:08:11 (#4299)

There are some pretty connected folks on this board, besides, like I said, they speak in code on that other site. Now that I think about it, so do you, McGravey. ;-)


Re: Why Not?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Jun-2003 07:57:55 (#4301)

Who me??

one zero zero
one zero zero
one S O S
(RUSH)

grin You made me go over there and see what everyone was fussing over you big gossip you! I think he sold everyone's name to Griffin for a small fee. Spread that round like butter on warm toast.

"Paranoia the destroia"
(Kinks)

More like a big publicity stunt dontcha think? I agree, sometimes its best to post on a different board were people can't delete things that are not in their best interest, but no one filled in the blanks here, so that is why I asked my you asked here.

"The answer my friend......"
(Bobby Dilly)

. . . - - - . . .


Re: Why Not?
Posted by SammyBoy on 19-Jun-2003 11:02:54 (#4302)

More like a big publicity stunt dontcha think?

Yes, I agree.


Cellini's post here...
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2003 10:08:59 (#4316)

Cellini is an odd-ball to say the least. He seems to be interested in pulling large-scale publicity stunts, but their purpose or truth is yet to be determined. This dissappearing act is another in a long line, that I am sure will be added to as time goes on.

On the other hand, I genuinely like him, and admire him, and invite him to post here whenever and in whatever context he chooses.

He stated in no uncertain terms that he had terminal cancer on this site about 2 weeks ago. That was the content of what was posted here and then deleted. He said that he expected to be dead in a couple of weeks and was making good with his friends and enemies.

Now that this appears to be a hoax, I have no qualms about letting the cat out of the bag.

--Mayor


Re: Cellini's post here...
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Jun-2003 11:30:32 (#4319)

You're right Mayor, it was/is very weird. I don't wish terminal cancer on anyone and hope it is a hoax. But I can't imagine someone making up a story like that. I will just assume there is more to the story than I will ever know. Thanks.


TC
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 26-Jun-2003 18:41:00 (#4360)

I had terminal cancer once.........but I survived it.......smile


DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME!!
Posted by Card Counter on 20-Jun-2003 00:47:39 (#4303)

I just returned from Las Vegas and I have come to the conclusion that blackjack is no longer a beatable game there. It was possible say 30 years ago, but today, no. The games in LV are just too crappy and a complete waste of time. I headed to the downtown area where they still have single deck, H17 and DOA. The player is at about -.19%. In two days I got barred from 3 casinos (El Cortez, Las Vegas Club, Four Queens) and ended up losing about $200 overall. With most of the casinos, the number of decks and rules make the game unplayable. The ones that have an OK number of decks and rules (such as downtown), the cut card is placed too far up from the end to be a beatable game. In summary, DON'T PLAY BLACKJACK! DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME! If this post keeps just one person out there from playing blackjack I will have considered it a success. God bless everyone! Take revenge on the casinos! DON'T PLAY!


Re: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME!!
Posted by Henry Tamburin on 20-Jun-2003 19:37:39 (#4305)

Sorry, but I disagree. There are still 'beatable" games in Las Vegas only you have to spend more time finding them. Don't go the single deck game route - nowadays, your best bet is the shoe game.

Henry Tamburin


Re: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME!! ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Management on 20-Jun-2003 20:42:02 (#4306)

Henry Tamburin is the editor and chief of The Black Jack News Letter at Casino.Com. His Las Vegas insights and monthly reports are on the money! Every one here at CC.Com should subscribe to his service. He is a 24/7 pro player in the Las Vegas area and he is highly respected in the A.P. world. Thanks for your insite Henry even if it is Directed to a troll acting up here at CC.Com. Thank You for partcipating at our humble web site! Henry could you place your profile here at CC.Com. It would be an honor to have you as a member!


Royal Match house advantage is wrong.
Posted by Card Counter on 21-Jun-2003 18:09:18 (#4307)

But what if in the first hand, every K and Q in the deck was dealt out, leaving a deck with 44 cards devoid of royalty? In this case you will win $1320 for every $1892 bet, for a house edge of 30.2%.

WRONG!

The Royal Match returns (11C2/44C2)*4*4 = 93.02%
For a house advantage of 6.98%!

Some of us are "trolls", but others of us are incapable of doing math.


Re: Royal Match house advantage is wrong.
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Jun-2003 02:11:42 (#4309)

Why would you bet Royal Match in the first place? Second why do you consistantly post here about your ficticious voodoo trips to Las Vegas. I am here now and I beat El Cortez and a few of the other Downtown single deck games you complain about. It may not be a fortune but I won. You always brag about your knowledge of the mathamatics of the game yet you always lose! Trolls will be trolls. Please dont respond to this message in fact just stay away!


Re: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME!!
Posted by Tito on 22-Jun-2003 02:52:27 (#4310)

Firstly Mr.Jacobson may I congratulate you on a new and refreshing board.I really believe the above poster not to be a troll but has some insight from a visitor on just a short trip. You may remember the rantings of Doug Grant some years ago in much the same vein, so many of his views have now come to be reality and many have now to eat their own words.Henry Tambourin whilst being a gentleman published a book recommending stop losses, take the money and run, if only it was that easy! Unlike Mr.LV Pro at least HT has made a career from advantage play.The input of the latter is to be encouraged.All the best. Tito.


Re: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME!!
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2003 22:11:26 (#4340)

Thanks for your honest assessment.

I am a fan of HT and always welcome his posts here.

I am happy to have those post here who state opinions based on their experience in counting. However, generalizations from limited experience that lead one to make statements that are simply false often come off as arrogant and ill mannered.

--Mayor


Waste of time?
Posted by ZOD on 22-Jun-2003 09:21:07 (#4311)

Blackjack a waste of time? Well then, I guess you'd better change your name...
ZOD


We Need Some Action Here!
Posted by phantom007 on 22-Jun-2003 15:34:04 (#4312)

Mr. Card Counter proposes that we ALL abandon our beloved game because HE cannot beat it. SD, DD, 6D...I have beat them all...and have been beaten by them all as well.

But, excluding statistical variations, I usually BEAT MYSELF! I count, I grind, I make a few hundred $, then "GET DRUNK AND STUPID", and even betting big in positive counts, does not always cover the variance.

Mr. Card Counter...give me Downtown LV rules, 2:1 Spread, SD, and 2 Rounds to One Player (ME)...I WILL PLAY TO AN ADVANTAGE! It might be a small advantage, but it will be POSITIVE.

But the point of this POST is to regenerate some action on this site.

I will post a true story...requesting same in kind!

phantom007.


Re: We Need Some Action Here!
Posted by Sonny on 22-Jun-2003 23:29:10 (#4315)

>I count, I grind, I make a few hundred $, then "GET DRUNK AND STUPID"
>...give me Downtown LV rules, 2:1 Spread, SD, and 2 Rounds to One Player
>(ME)...I WILL PLAY TO AN ADVANTAGE!

WOW! A 2:1 spread with 20% penetration? Well, I can't vouch for the DRUNK part but...unless you're reading hole cards or something, I'm going to have to go with the latter! (just kidding)

Although I am roused by your unbridled enthusiasm, I think that Card Counter was talking about EASILY beatable games. He wants to find dealers giving 80% pen with no heat from the pit. Let's face it, if a game like this exists, it won't last for long. But doesn't that just force us to become better players? When the casinos tighten up by reducing penetration and offering more shoe games, don't we all learn more indices or Wong like crazy? In a way, the casinos are forcing us to become better players. They are requiring us to learn new skills and to master more aspects of the game in order to preserve our superiority. Are we not evolving into better, stronger players than ever before? If Thorp could have had a glimpse at our skill levels back when he was counting Tens vs. "others" and counting backwards from 52 to determine penetration, wouldn't he marvel at our progress? Our newer systems are much simpler and more powerful than ever. We have methods of tracking cards throughout the shuffle. We have training software and simulation software that sharpen our reflexes and help us find the optimal systems for playing and betting.

The fact that we can beat almost ANY game of blackjack (Phantom007's example is extreme, but not unrealistic) is truly amazing. It is to players like him that I tip my hat. Without dedication and enthusiasm like that, we would NEVER have come this far.

So everyone GET BACK TO THE CASINOS and LEARN to beat them!!!!!!

-Sonny-

P.S.-When you all get back from learning how to beat them, teach me. I'll be sitting right here.


NO SIR...I WILL NOT TEACH YOU....
Posted by phantom007 on 23-Jun-2003 20:31:08 (#4330)

BECAUSE YOU, obviously, already know how!

For the NEWBIES, in a good SD game, such as most Downtown LV ones, one starts out with an approx. -0.35 DISADVANTAGE. Therefore, even at +1, one has a slight advantage, or at least an EVEN game, depending on site.

Mr. Card Counter wants us all to abandon BJ for the slots. I disagree. You can beat SD on a 2:1 spread....HELL, one can likely beat SD on a 46:45 spread, but would look OBVIOUS.

Unfortunately, the ultimate challenge is not BS (Basic Strategy) nor CC (Card Counting), nor, for that matter BSpr (BetSpread)....the ULTIMATE challenge is GETTING AWAY WITH IT!

Mr. Card Counter's profile states that he has 27 years experience!

BULL...SH...IT!

phantom007


Re: NO SIR...I WILL NOT TEACH YOU....
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2003 20:44:57 (#4334)

FYI, I spread $5 to $80 at the Horseshoe with no heat a few days back. How?

I sat down and said in a loud voice: "I'm a card counter!" I followed this up by asking the dealer if she wanted to buy some heroin.

--Mayor


Re: NO SIR...I WILL NOT TEACH YOU....
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 23-Jun-2003 22:28:31 (#4341)

Ahh yes... correct information conveyed by a non-credible source. A tried and true misinformation technique. You really did this successfully? If you say your not joking I will certainly have a good laugh (now, isn't that ironic?).


Re: NO SIR...I WILL NOT TEACH YOU....
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Jun-2003 00:41:07 (#4342)

I am not joking. I was with a young friend who sat nearby (but incognito that he knew me) and I told him that I had been backed-off there many times. He had never seen a back-off so I went in with the full intention of getting my ass kicked out, AND COULDN'T DO IT!

--Mayor


That is incredibly funny! *NM*
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Jun-2003 07:16:04 (#4343)


While Putting on the Shoe?
Posted by phantom007 on 29-Jun-2003 04:54:02 (#4379)

Did you notice the pictures posted at the PC's work area(desk)?

When there several months ago, I sat at a BJ table where I was in view of the "koisk" where the PC's take/make calls, write comps, stand around, etc.
There were about 4-5 black and white pictures of individuals, most SITTING BEHIND JAIL BARS!, posted at this desk.

I presume that these photos were of those who had done BAD things at the Shoe, such as cheat, steal, count, and/or NOT TIP! I also presume that they must have an "in-house" holding cell where these pictures were taken.

Idea! Ever go to LV on a whim, only to find all the rooms are booked. No Problem! "DO THE SHOE!" Steal something. Get a Comp'd Holding Cell!

Did not see your photo, Mayor. Though I think I recognized ZG (grin).

phantom007.


Is single deck beatable with 2:1?
Posted by Joe Schmoe on 23-Jun-2003 15:02:04 (#4322)

It's funny that you mentioned beating a single deck game with a 2:1 betting ratio. That's what I'm trying to figure out. I have a computer program running that is betting 2 units when the count is 0 or + and 1 unit when the count is - (using Hi-Lo). For half a deck, the player has an advantage of about 0.5% with best play, so I decided to bet 2 units if the count is 0. After about 49,000 hands, the player has an advantage of about 1%. I think the player is just getting unusally lucky though. Anybody know if single deck is beatable with such a strategy?


Re: Is single deck beatable with 2:1?
Posted by phantom007 on 29-Jun-2003 04:43:02 (#4378)

2:1 SD spread is what Carlson usually uses, in his book BJ for Blood...and 4:1 for DD, and at least 6:1 for MD. I suspect he uses more when "possible", but by his tone of writing, I got the drift that he was working for both Longevity and Profit, and not just Profit.

For SD, much less spread is needed, even less that 2:1, since more advantage comes from Ins. and Play, than from Betting changes. Periodically, in LV at least, there have been SD games that were beatable by changes in play only, such as several years ago at the Silverton.

phantom007.


My story, and I'm sticking to it!
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2003 16:42:23 (#4323)

See my "journal" and you will know that the game can be beaten (a lot!). "Card Counter" is a low-level inexperienced player who is extrapolating from limited experience in burn joints to a large scale statement about the game. I invite him to play a lot more.

Here's the link:

http://www.cardcounter.com/images/journal.jpg

--Mayor


Per Profile, ON THIS SITE, CardCounter has 27 years experience.
Posted by phantom007 on 23-Jun-2003 20:36:56 (#4331)

So, What gives?

phantom007


Re: Per Profile, ON THIS SITE, CardCounter has 27 years experience.
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2003 20:43:11 (#4333)

That's cardKountr -- different guy completely -- one with whom I have been in contact for years. The troll's name is "card counter"

--Mayor


TALES FROM THE PIT..........TRUE BJ STORIES!
Posted by phantom007 on 22-Jun-2003 16:15:20 (#4313)

99% of those who file Bankruptcy do it WRONG! Most file too early, when they could still salvage property and/or reputation. Most of the rest do it too late...when you have nothing, why bother?

I planned to be in the top 1%!

I ended up in the top 2%.

I borrowed lots of $, to place lots of Towel-heads in medial practie. When they got "their Green Card", they left, and left me holding the debt!

But they also left me holding their "Accounts Receibables". Most of same is now held by GS in Tunica, and SD in LV.

They left me with debt that I could not pay, but with the said $, for a few months, I WAS A HIGH ROLLER!

ANYHOW, with lots of CASH $ which were mine, but not mine, of course:

---I bought in for $2k, and lost it within 2 hours.

---I re-bought in for $2k, and parlayed it up to about $30K.

WHEN I was about $30K ahead, I vaguely remember making 2 bets of $5,000./each, and getting BJ on each! But by now, I was about 20 hours into this session, and SH++T-FACED!

A FRIENDLY PC came up and told me that "I was one of their best players, and it was time for me to go to bed (at 6am)"...he knew that I was "throwing it away". Thanks to him, I finished 2002 on a POSITIVE BJ Note, despite other negative conotations as noted above.

I showed you mine...

phantom007.


Re: TALES FROM THE PIT..........TRUE BJ STORIES!
Posted by SammyBoy on 22-Jun-2003 18:56:50 (#4314)

A couple weeks ago I was playing in a Mississippi casino. Single deck good rules fair penetration. I was getting hammered pretty good, but I did not allow the losing to affect my emotional state. I stayed positive and just kept telling myself it will turn around. I also continued to remind myself that I have lots of bankroll in reserve, these losses do not affect my well being. I continued to make my big bets when appropriate, and continued to catch stiff hands, aces on my doubled eleven and other bad cards on doubled hands. This was becoming a marathon session going on six hours in the same joint. This is a place I have played often and am an overall loser there as a counter as well as a ploppy (before learning to count). I've made a good run at them in the last couple of months and would be ahead very soon, if I were not relocating. With this in mind, I started to wonder why I had never experienced any heat or have never been backed off. I play with no cover when the PC's are not watching and some when they sit there and watch the table. The cover I use when I do use it is not to make stupid plays, but to not drastically increase my bets when the count calls for it. I do it more gradually (ploppy like). After taking a short break I decided that I would attempt a "Hail Mary" comeback when the opportunity presented itself.

The spread I use is about the maximum I've heard people talk about using safely in single deck. I decided it was time to push the envelope, so I doubled the spread I normally use. It was getting very late and the place was emptying out. After a while I was playing heads up with what I would call great penetration, at times 35+ cards being dealt. I was still losing and was down to my last few chips on the table which represented 2 big bets with my normal spread. After losing 3 consecutive bets in positive counts, the count was as high as I had seen it all night. I said "screw it" like a ploppy would and put it all in the betting circle, the dealer calls "checks play", but the pit could care less. Wouldn't you know it I get a snapper. For the next 15 minutes I win 80% of the hands and have pulled myself out of the hole. Now that I am actually ahead and have a mountain of chips in front of me I notice that the pit is scrambling around like there is a national emergency. The next thing I know there are at least 4 suits watching me like I'm a known shoplifter in a department store. This is not paranoia, they are watching ME, not the table, and from all different angles. I look up and their eyes are always on me. They're on the phone, huddling up in conferences, but at all times one of them has their eye on me. I played for 2 more hours, basically backing myself off by going back to my normal spread while they were watching and not jumping my bets up too quickly. I also flat bet a few rounds and did not count the cards.

After this session I'm left with lots of questions. Why did they not confront me? Will they confront me in the future? I may go back one more time before I move just to see. Are they totally incompetent? Were they only watching me because I won so much money in a short period of time? Do they know I'm a counter but think I can't hurt them yet because of my red chip play? Will they review my play on tape later and stop me next time I go in?

I know it was probably not a good move to use the Hail Mary play, but I figured so what, I will probably never go back there again for a long time. I'm not a pro, so if I do get barred so what. The ironic thing is that many of the ploppies there consider me a bad player and actually leave the table when I show up. I'm the guy that always takes the dealers bust card or splits too much. :-)

I would love to hear any and all comments about my post.


Re: TALES FROM THE PIT..........TRUE BJ STORIES!
Posted by phantom007 on 23-Jun-2003 20:51:49 (#4335)

Comment:

"YOU DID GOOD!"

"DAMN GOOD!"

Mega-HEAT, without Barring!

YOU DID CC's GOOD!

phantom007


Went Back
Posted by SammyBoy on 25-Jun-2003 18:04:29 (#4355)

Was not 86'd or backed off. Spread big early with a different crew. Later the crew from a few weeks ago was back. They didn't watch me until I started winning. It's apparent they are clueless. I will try to hit them for the BIG Score this weekend.


3 Balls Golf

ANS: You around?
Posted by alienated on 23-Jun-2003 11:20:13 (#4318)

Hope everything's okay. Been missing your posts.


Trip report: 06/15/2003 -- the trip.
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2003 14:22:49 (#4320)

This is the trip report where the trip is the report.

06/15/2003
On my way up I got on the road around 8 PM. 5 min into the drive I hit the traffic jam from hell, and turned around and came back. Went home, left again at 10PM, same thing. I decided to stick it out. 1 hour later I went 3 miles, so I got off and took backroads around the ROAD CONSTRUCTION. Spent the night at my fathers house in LA.

06/16/2003
Up at 3:30 AM. Drive is great till I hit Primm. Traffic jam from hell. Fatal accident at 5:10 AM, it's 8AM now and the coroner has not yet arrived. I cross the median and go back to Primm and play BJ for 2 hours. Get back on the road again, same thing. This time I decide to stick it out. 1 hour later nothing. Back to Primm, this time turning around and driving the wrong way on the freeway for 2 miles (of course nothing has moved). Hours later I finally escape from Primm - but damage my car as I run over something around the site of the accident. 1/2 hour later my "check engine" light comes on.

06/17/03.
Take car to get oil changed and check light. They say it is nothing, and reset the "check engine" light.

06/18/03
Check engine light comes back on.

06/20/03
7:30 PM
I attempt to drive home -- I have a music gig on 06/21 I am supposed to play in. My car breaks down 30 miles north of Baker. A belt comes off, massive oil leak. I get a tow, arriving at Danny's garage around 10PM. He says it needs a new belt, and he will get one in the morning. Sleep in Hotel.

06/21/03
9AM
Call Danny, no belt yet, says to call back later.

11AM
Call Danny, no belt yet, says another hour.

Noon
I show up and wait. An hour later the belt arrives. He looks at the now obvious oil leak and says "oh, I didn't see that before -- this is big, I won't be able to look at it till tomorrow.

2PM
I hitchhike back to Las Vegas, my friends are still at the Palace St and they let me stay in their room.

06/22/03
10AM
Call Danny, he still hasn't looked at it.
11AM
Call wife in distress -- she says to rent a U-Haul and bring the car back on my own.
2:00PM
Rent U-Haul and leave Vegas second time. Get stuck at gas station after I wrap the trailer around one of the cement posts. Takes me 20 minutes to get it untangled. Enter huge traffic jam leaving Vegas south.
4:00PM
Arrive at Danny's. He charges me $72 as his "minimal service fee". Has not yet looked at the car. I see this distressed threesome, two hispanic females and a man. Joking, I say I am going to LA if they need a ride. It turns out they live in Ventura, which is 20 miles south of here, and would love a ride. The females are now my passengers.
4:30PM
Leave HELL (oops, I mean Danny's garage).
7:30PM
Stop at Victorville for gas ... yep 3 hours. Sunday evening f***ing traffic.
10:05PM
Get home.

My negative EV from transportation on this trip: -$480 and counting...

--Mayor


Re: Trip report: 06/15/2003 -- the trip.
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Jun-2003 18:10:20 (#4324)

WOW! That must have sucked. Maybe you should fly next time?


epilogue
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2003 18:13:45 (#4326)

My mechanic in Santa Barbara fixed it in an hour. Cost $233. I have the car back now. It runs fine. The generator belt wrapped around the drive shaft and broke a seal. New belt, new seal, fixed.

--Mayor


Re: Trip report: 06/15/2003 -- the trip.
Posted by Running Count on 23-Jun-2003 18:16:26 (#4327)

Mayor,

I know the feeling. On last trip to Northern Nevada on Hwy 80, got caught in a mammoth snowstorm. Cars sliding everywhere. Only 2 miles from Truckee and relative smooth sailing (and after 3 hours of slow going in the snow), the idiot in the RWD minivan in front of me spins out (after hitting brakes in the snow) and turns 270 degrees. I can't get my fiance's pretty new car stopped in time, and slide into the aforementioned idiot.

In sum: in BJ up 30 units. In car repairs and insurance premiums down 300 units and counting.

I would like very much to forget that trip.

Running Count

p.s. Thanks for the info you shared via email, even if it turned out to be a publicity stunt. I appreciate your candor.


Maybe Missouri is not THAT bad:
Posted by phantom007 on 23-Jun-2003 20:59:49 (#4336)

$500./2hr Loss Limit.

Only the AMISH can get in the way of your Casino Trip!

CC's cannot be barred, just shuffled.

phantom007.


Trip report: 06/15/2003 -- the blackjack.
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2003 14:40:24 (#4321)

Played mainly LL side bet and Poker on this trip. I really got the feeling for the bet, it is tough to make 15 of them in a row (at $25 each) with a 10%+ edge over the house and not see a single 20. But I hit quite a few 4-1 and 9-1 payoffs, and one 25-1 payoff. At one point I was at a TC of 9 for my system, needing a TC of 10 to make the bet, and the QH-QH pair fell on my hand. Oooohhh Piss!!! My final results: made the LL bet 74 times, won the bet 9 times out of the 74 for 25+9+9+9+9+4+4+4+4 = 77x$25 bet. Lost 65 times for -65x$25. Net result: +12x$25 = +$300 on LL. But, when you only hit the bet 1/8 (or less, in the long run) times you play it, it is really a struggle to put down the bet. I actually was playing with a friend and when the count justified it we put down 4 LL bets between us all over the board. He got hammered -- I am sure he went through a 0/20 streak on the bet. Then again, he hit the QH-QH pair two trips ago. Another thing that kept coming up was that it felt very awkward to flat bet $5 on a square for an hour, then suddenly drop $100 on the board in 4 spots for the LL. I got some weird looks, but in the end was accepted for this play without heat.

Also I was with a newbie who will no doubt be a big player once his bankroll catches up to his intelligence. He is gifted and excited, and it was a pleasure mentoring him on the trip. He just needs to sell a book or movie, and score a 10k bankroll so that he can play more than a max bet of 2x$10. Then you better watch out!

For the trip I won 141 units.

--Mayor


LL Side Bet
Posted by Coug It on 23-Jun-2003 18:47:44 (#4329)

Was playing a shoe game three weeks ago, two hands per round. Didn't touch the LL side bet (couldn't recall the Mayor's indices for making the play, +7TC?) until I got up a bunch. Was carrying on and acting goofy w/ my BP for cover and decided "what the hell"....

so i played the side bet on both hands and was dealt two 20's (one suited). Never played the LL side bet prior to that (or since then). Lucky ladies, indeed!


Re: LL Side Bet
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2003 21:31:43 (#4339)

Using a normal count like hi-lo is VERY weak for the LL bet, and even weaker on a shoe game. Your earnings are about $3 per hour in this situation.

I have a specialized count I developed (not published, and no, you can't have it).

The game I played had an EV of about $50 per hour using LL.

--Mayor


Re: LL Side Bet
Posted by Coug It on 25-Jun-2003 13:42:31 (#4350)

<<I have a specialized count I developed (not published, and no, you can't have it). >>

Why would I want your "specialized count" when my method works 100% of the time?!


Re: LL Side Bet
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Jun-2003 14:12:23 (#4351)

You're right, forgive me for being so presumptous!

--Mayor


Re: LL Side Bet
Posted by Coug It on 25-Jun-2003 14:28:07 (#4352)

OH BOY! How I LOVE to be right. Now, where are those lotto tickets I left lying around. I need to see if my new system will work for tonight's drawing!


Re: Trip report: 06/15/2003 -- the blackjack.
Posted by Learning to count on 24-Jun-2003 23:10:27 (#4346)

Wow your freind got hammered huh? Too bad. If I was him I would save up all the those bottle returns, have a couple of yard sales, and stop betting over his bankroll. He was probably betting a 14% ror. You have to watch betting aggressively at those high counts even at a 30% edge! If I was him I would plan to come back in the fall and keep on counting.


Re: Trip report: 06/15/2003 -- the blackjack.
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Jun-2003 08:29:10 (#4347)

Yeah, who knows, someday he may even win a LL bet or two. I think it's the mojo -- he doesn't understand the flow.

--Mayor


Re: Trip report: 06/15/2003 -- the blackjack.
Posted by hinoon on 25-Jun-2003 13:02:47 (#4348)

Sounds like what you should have done is let the rookie play a few rounds heads-up in the negative and low-positive counts to absorb all the non-faces. Nothing wrong with letting the new guy pay his dues. Particularly if he's getting the good fortune to learn first-hand from serious AP players. :)


That's it!
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Jun-2003 13:36:55 (#4349)

It's all part of the mojo.

Honestly, it is incredibly rude to stick a fellow AP at the table with the crappy cards. If there are 3 of you at the table and you are all friends, and one wants to wong out, propriety dictates you only leave for that bathroom break at a HIGH count!

But, if he's a rookie -- make him pay!

--Mayor


Re: Trip report: 06/15/2003 -- the blackjack.
Posted by Learning to count on 25-Jun-2003 17:37:28 (#4354)

Whats even worse is doing all the hard work of counting down the decks and signaling the advantage and watching the rooky get all the BJ's while you get a stiff after stiff! Now that is frustration! HiNoon is that a western like the Good The Bad and the Ugly? WHo was the ugly guy?????


Re: Trip report: 06/15/2003 -- the blackjack.
Posted by hinoon on 25-Jun-2003 19:29:18 (#4356)

Yeah LTC, that WOULD suck. Providence is a harsh mistress, they say. But if history is any indicator of future patterns, the Gods of Variance will always be out there, looking for smug rookies wearing their chips on their shoulders.

As far as The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly goes...if memory serves me rightly, "The Ugly", aka Tuco Ramirez - the Mexican bandit/hero, was played by the inimitable Eli Wallach; easily the best role in the movie. :)

- Hinoon


The Western has an official "we cheat" policy
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2003 18:12:32 (#4325)

Playing at the Western - a bunch of small cards came out the first two rounds, the dealer shuffled. Why are you shuffling, I ask the Asian dealer. "Our policy to shuffle when small cards come out, please ask boss." It's your policy! You mean, when the player has the edge, whether advantage player or ploppy, it is your intention to cease dealing? "Please ask boss, I don't know why, policy."

Next deck a bunch of high cards come out. Why aren't you shuffling? "Our policy, deal many hands if high cards come out, please ask boss." You mean, if the house has a large edge, then you keep dealing? That's out and out cheating! You don't want to deal when the player has a chance, and you keep dealing when the game is in your favor. I can't believe that cheating is an official policy here. "Please ask boss, I don't know, I just do it."

--Mayor


Sounds like a legitimate complaint with the Gaming Commission *NM*
Posted by Running Count on 23-Jun-2003 18:18:21 (#4328)


Re: The Western has an official "we cheat" policy
Posted by Syph on 23-Jun-2003 20:38:43 (#4332)

LOL!

But on the good note, if it's the Western I know and love...it's still a positive EV game.

;)

Cheers!
Syph

(PS Eliot, how are things? I'm still in the game (life can be odd) but all is well. Once I breakthrough, I hope to do a bit of a goodwill tour. I look forward to seeing you again.)


Re: The Western has an official "we cheat" policy
Posted by phantom007 on 23-Jun-2003 21:18:33 (#4337)

MAYOR, please don't shoot the messenger. Try a few "loaded" tips, and see how the shuffle shuffles. Should only decrease EV by 25-50% or so.

Besides, at the Western, what are we talking, a $4:$2 spread? I suspect that you, Mayor, were playing RED, a DEAD give-away to a CC!

And, I hope, before your presence there, you got your Tetanus shot, your AIDS shot, your Hepatitis ABC shots, Smallpox, Monkeypox, etc.

And, finally, please tell me which toilet seat you sat upon, i.e., first to the left, second to the left, etc., so that I may know where it is safe to SH++it when I go there in the fall.

I must presume that the little pustule that just "popped up" in your groin is more than just a "zit".

YOU LOOKED, did you not?

phantom007


Re: The Western has an official "we cheat" policy
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2003 21:29:40 (#4338)

>Besides, at the Western, what are we talking, a $4:$2 spread? I suspect that you, Mayor, were playing RED, a DEAD give-away to a CC!

I was not playing... I was watching a friend play. I was commenting while he played. He only played two decks worth before we left, I don't think he spread at all.

>And, I hope, before your presence there, you got your Tetanus shot, your AIDS shot, your Hepatitis ABC shots, Smallpox, Monkeypox, etc.

We were offered drugs 3 times on the walk over (9 am) and we saw three separate busts -- you know, guys with no shirts being pounded face first with handcuffs on to the top of a police car. I asked. The officer said "oh he stabbed the other guy, but he won't press charges -- says he doesn't know the guy."

>And, finally, please tell me which toilet seat you sat upon, i.e., first to the left, second to the left, etc., so that I may know where it is safe to SH++it when I go there in the fall.

I actually heard an advertisement on the radio for the W on the radio coming home. Maybe that's what doomed my car!

--Mayor


Re: Meanie Dealers
Posted by Sonny on 24-Jun-2003 11:51:22 (#4345)

>MAYOR, please don't shoot the messenger. Try a few "loaded" tips, and see how
>the shuffle shuffles.

Unless you mean "loaded" as in dynamite, I wouldn't even bother. If a dealer is going to be that uptight, just look for another table. Why waste any money on a weak game with a "shifty" dealer? Just walk a few tables down and check out the other dealers before you sit down. You're not going to get great pen at the Western, but sometimes playing multiple hands can increase it enough.

Since the Mayor was coaching a friend, it would look very awkward to tell them to get up and circle the pit for a while. Luckily he had the good sense to just leave.

"You gotta know when to walk away, and know when to run."

>Besides, at the Western, what are we talking, a $4:$2 spread?

Just because your minimum bet is $2 doesn't mean your max bet can't be $30-$40. The low minimums are a GREAT place for young counters to get experience or red-chippers to increase their spread by dropping their minimum bets. With $1 minimums, who needs to Wong?

-Sonny-


Western Max bet?
Posted by CougFan on 01-Jul-2003 10:37:28 (#4398)

You mention that your max bet could be $30 or more? Either you have a really good act, or I have a really bad one for that place, but I would doubt that you could bet $30 with any kind of a spread and get away with it. I've only played there twice, but red chips seem to get the pit running over to your table. A $30 bet there gets the same amount of attention that a $500 bet gets at the Horseshoe.

I am surprised that they have their dealers watching for small cards. The dealers there are all break-ins who are real nervous about making any mistakes. Seems to me that if they are distracted by trying to watch for high or low cards, then they may be susceptible to more mistakes, especially if a player rushes them a bit, and bets odd amounts, etc.


Re: Western Max bet?
Posted by Sonny on 01-Jul-2003 16:00:30 (#4399)

>You mention that your max bet could be $30 or more? Either you have a really
>good act, or I have a really bad one for that place, but I would doubt that
>you could bet $30 with any kind of a spread and get away with it.

No cover plays at all! I don't have an "act" per se, but I think that my naturally sloppy appearance and demeanor have a way or reducing heat. About the only thing I do for my "act" is to ask a LOT of stupid questions when I play. Things like asking "Why do you burn a card after the shuffle?" or "What's that?" when they ask if you want insurance can go a LONG way. Coupled with some of the wierd BS deviations you get to make in SD games I come out looking pretty clean. Also, several things were working in my favor that particular day.

Like I said in my trip report, I had a great dealer. For some reason, she would always scream out "Green Action!" or "Checks!" when I played a green chip by itself, but she would save her breath if I added a red chip on top of it. I guess she figured that she wouldn't call it out if she didn't have to. This is how I got away with my $30 bets, although I later switched to 2x$20.

Another helpful factor was that this was on Christmas day. The regular day shift PB (a keen-eyed asian woman) must have had the day off because there were two kids that looked about 14 years old supervising. They glanced at me a few times from the other end of the pit, but they had no idea what I was doing, only that I was making big bets.

Then when I went to cash in my many green chips, the cage worker was already on the phone with his wife so he didn't call my winnings into the pit as is the house policy. I made a clean escape. It was the best Christmas present ever!

-Sonny-


Re: Another time...
Posted by Sonny on 01-Jul-2003 20:39:12 (#4403)

...on that same trip I went in there to check out their early morning action. I was circling the pit checking all of the dealers' penetration levels when I stopped dead in my tracks as a $2 table. There was a guy, all by himself, betting 3x$25 on almost every round! He would switch to 2x$50 or 1x$100 occasionally (I think he was trying the "Grifter's Gambit"). The PB was standing right behind the dealer watching his every move, but nobody ever said anything to him. This gave me another chance to play without any heat. Unfortunately I didn't leave with as many chips that time.

As an AP, sometimes you have to just be in the right place at the right time, and be ready to jump on any opportunity you can find. If you play like I do, then sometimes you need all the free camo you can get!

-Sonny-


Monopoly -- Strange but true
Posted by feepness on 24-Jun-2003 10:38:44 (#4344)

This talk of the Lady Luck Side Bet got me remembering that silly monopoly game they've got and a funny story that happened to me.

I was playing a few months ago and happened to be sitting at the "monopoly" table. This is a silly side bet where if you get a blackjack you play this little electronic game for anything from 2-1 to 125-1. You can also take 15-1 straight without playing the electronic game. A little train chugs around a monopoly board until you hit the button (the button is just for show) and then slowly stops on a random square with the result. Baltic Ave is 2-1, Boardwalk is 125-1, etc...

So I'm playing at the table, not taking this terribly negative EV game, but the dealers are pushing it HARD. Everyone else is taking it, including this poor sweet looking girl at first base who's taking it EVERY SINGLE ROUND. Then she'd play the electronic game and get 6-1 or 10-1 on her money. I'm pretending like I want to, but change my mind at the last minute (and of course I pull BJ those times). Then I figure, what the hell, I'll buy a little cover. Instead of tipping for the dealer, I slide my bet into the monopoly square to shut them up.

Blackjack. I play the game of course and pull 20-1.

Wow, awesome. I play a couple more times after that (after all, it's great, and now free, cover). New dealer comes in. Another monopoly pusher. I play it straight and TC drops to about -4.5 with half a shoe left. I stand up to wong out and the dealer says "come on, one more, before you go".

You know the rest. Blackjack. Play the game. Boardwalk. 125-1.

I felt bad for the girl at first base. I looked sheepishly at her and she's smiling back. I have now set her up to throw how much more money at this? Not hurting for the ploppies is one of the most difficult things about this whole deal. Tipped the dealer half a unit and went to a different table.

It's nice to end up with a plus in your tokes column though. And no I didn't take that win in my counting totals. I made 165-5 or 33-1.

Feep


Re: Monopoly -- Strange but true
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Jun-2003 10:41:24 (#4357)

Do you think the wheel was random? If so, this is probably beatable.

I'm glad you got lucky. It serves the ploppies right.

--Mayor


Re: Monopoly -- Strange but true *LINK*
Posted by Feepness on 26-Jun-2003 13:13:24 (#4358)

The link to the game is below. I'll describe it in more detail. It occurred to me that it might be beatable, but it would take a bit of work.

If you take the side bet and get a blackjack you get a choice: 15-1 immediately or "play monopoly". The dealer hands you a wireless button shaped like a monopoly derby token about 10 inches high. The dealer then presses a button to their right and a train starts moving around a monopoly board on a screen above and to the dealer's left. The train speeds around the track until you press the button. Then it slows down and keeps going for awhile, slows down again and keeps going for a shorter while, and then stops. I think it's about 0.5 to 1.5 circuits after a press, though more observation would be required for a more accurate understanding. The board did have a "previous 20 results" display as well. When I was there the railroads (20-1) were hit about 6 times in a row!

There are 40 stops on the board as on a regular monopoly board. "Go-to-jail" paid zero I believe. I would have to think that the average payoff of the "play monopoly" was lower than 15-1 since it took signifacntly longer (at least two minutes) for the game to run therefore costing the casnio extra time. The dealers seemed unfamiliar with the game and had difficulty operating the device often requiring a couple tries to get the game to start.

What is the hi-lo index to make 15-1 a good wager? Unfortunately I use an ace neutral count and haven't add a side count yet, though that is what I am practicing now.


Not random
Posted by Running Count on 27-Jun-2003 11:43:02 (#4364)

Long discussion of this side bet on ap.com a month or so ago. Someone actually went and looked at the patent application. Appears its not random, and not obviously beatable.

RC


Re: Not random
Posted by Ivy Kid on 27-Jun-2003 16:43:30 (#4369)

Well, this patent claims the side bet is indeed "subject to chance due to random selection." Read up.

INVENTOR: Vancura, Olaf - Las Vegas, Nevada

APPL-NO: 690777 (09)

FILED-DATE: October 17, 2000

GRANTED-DATE: February 11, 2003

ASSIGNEE-AT-ISSUE: Mikohn Gaming Corporation, Las Vegas, Nevada, 02

ASSIGNEE-AFTER-ISSUE: October 15, 2001 - ASSIGNMENT OF ASSIGNORS INTEREST (SEE DOCUMENT FOR DETAILS)., MIKOHN GAMING CORPORATION 920 PILOT ROAD LAS VEGAS NEVADA 89119, Reel and Frame Number: 012272/0209
April 25, 2002 - SECURITY INTEREST (SEE DOCUMENT FOR DETAILS)., FOOTHILL CAPITAL CORPORATION 2450 COLORADO AVENUE, SUITE 3000W SANTA MONICA C ALIFORNIA 90404, Reel and Frame Number: 013011/0233

LEGAL-REP: Dorr, Carson, Sloan & Birney, P.C. - ##0

PUB-TYPE: February 11, 2003 - Utility Patent having no previously published pre-grant publication (B1)

PUB-COUNTRY: United States (US)

US-MAIN-CL: 273#274

US-ADDL-CL: 273#292, 273#309

CL: 273

SEARCH-FLD: 273#274, 273#292, 273#309, 463#12, 463#13

IPC-MAIN-CL: 7A 63F001#0

PRIM-EXMR: Pierce, William M.

REF-CITED:
4861041, August, 1989, Jones et al., United States (US)
5098107, March, 1992, Boylan et al., United States (US)
5390934, February, 1995, Grassa, United States (US)
5494296, February, 1996, Grassa, United States (US)
5615888, April, 1997, Lofink et al., United States (US)
5653444, August, 1997, Dahl, United States (US)
5673917, October, 1997, Vancura, United States (US)
5707285, January, 1998, Place et al., United States (US)
5806846, September, 1998, Lofink et al., United States (US)
5842698, December, 1998, Brown, United States (US)
5863041, January, 1999, Boylan et al., United States (US)
5868392, February, 1999, Kraft, United States (US)
5911418, June, 1999, Adams, United States (US)

ENGLISH-ABST:

A method and equipment for playing a base and bonus games with side betting. A video board is used for bonus play if a predetermined arrangement of cards results in the base game. Side wagers allow bettors to win of the bonus with random selection. If a player gets the predetermined arrangement then chooses a sure win or playing an additional game. By chance that player can win a multiple of the side wager or may win nothing while other players win instead. Blackjack played with money, gaming chips, and/or credits pit players against a dealer at a table whereat cards are dealt and awards to one or more players are given for resolution of the bonus. Methods include each player placing a main eager to play, and a side wager optionally to play the bonus game.

NO-OF-CLAIMS: 4

EXMPL-CLAIM: 1

NO-OF-FIGURES: 3

NO-DRWNG-PP: 3
SUMMARY:

FIELD OF THE INVENTION

The invention relates to casino games with the objective to inspire more players to make a side wager or continue to play a casino game. The inspiration comes from the possible occurrence of a random event during the play of the game so the event pays off not only the individual player and possibly the other bystander players.
BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

There is a continuing need to add excitement to casino offerings. One manner in which this has been done is through the use of optional side wagers to an underlying game. In particular, side wagers to Blackjack have become plentiful in recent years.

A desired quality of any Blackjack side bet is that it be optional. In this way, players who do not want to make the side bet are not required to do so. Players not making the side wager instead play a normal Blackjack game. From a casino point of view, making the side bet optional is also desirable, for there is then very little risk in introducing it. If the side bet is unsuccessful (no one wants to wager on it), the Blackjack table reverts back to its classic play by default.

Optional Blackjack side wagers include Over/Under 13, Super 7s, Top of the Deck, Royal Match (Boylan et al., U.S. Pat. No. 5,098,107) and Bust- Out wagers. Too, a separate jackpot wager achieved through a predetermined arrangement of cards has been proposed (Jones et al., U.S. Pat. No. 4,861,041).

The Top of the Deck wager includes a side bet on if the player and/or dealer will receive a natural (a two-card total of 21). It has no "play" value, per se, in that the outcome of the wager is decided merely on the basis of the first two cards dealt to the player and/or dealer. Top of the Deck suffers with restrictive rules as to when players can make the bet (only immediately after a shuffle). Thus, players can make the wager typically only once every few hands.

The Over/Under 13 wager is a side bet on whether the player's first two cards will total over or total below 13. It is made at the start of a new hand. There is no decision for the player once the bet has been made.

The Royal Match wager is a side bet on whether the player's first two cards will be of the same suit. It is made at the start of a new hand but is also another completely passive bet.

The Super 7s wager has a bet on if the player will receive one or more Sevens in his/her hand. It too is made at the start of a new hand and it is almost completely passive as the player has a decision to make roughly once in every 170 hands. But in all other cases (the vast majority), there is nothing to do. Indeed, any jackpots paid on a predetermined arrangement of rare cards (cf. U.S. Pat. No. 4,861,041 mentioned above) succumb to this problem.

Vancura (U.S. Pat. No. 5,673,917) describes a side wager that allows players to wager on the number of hits that they and/or the dealer will ultimately take. The resolution of the main Blackjack wager can proceed as usual. Unlike the aforementioned Blackjack side wagers, players are actively in control of their fortunes and can play hands as they wish.

Boylan et al. (U.S. Pat. No. 5,863,041) describe a side wager to Pai Gow poker in which an "envy bet" is taught. The "envy bet" is a side wager of a minimum amount and allows the player to also be paid, should another player receive a hand of predetermined rank.

The game of Spanish 21 (Lofink, U.S. Pat. Nos. 5,615,888 and 5,806,846) modifies Blackjack and includes a bonus on the main wager. There is an opportunity of several players winning if someone gets special predetermined cards. In Spanish 21, the player receiving the predetermined cards wins in addition to all other players.

Rainbow Blackjack, (Grassa, U.S. Pat. Nos. 5,390,934 and 5,494,296) wherein the rules of play are the same but each player is assigned a color and players are allowed to wager on each other's colors, is another try that is reminiscent of back-lining, where others can wager with a particular player.

While the above casino games are each unique, none of them have the desirable feature of allowing a bystander player (one who wagers on the base game but not necessarily on any side bet) to receive an award based on the outcome of a side wager. Furthermore, none of these games afford one player an award based upon another player losing a wager.

There is therefore the need for side wagers that are exciting, easy-to- play, encourages play, and allows players to formulate their own strategy. There is the need to add excitement to wagering players not currently "in the game" to minimize boredom. There is the need for a casino game that allows a bystander player to receive an award based on the outcome of another player's side wager. There is the need for a casino game in which one player may win based upon another player losing.
BRIEF SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

Described herein is a casino game that allows a bystander player to receive an award based on the outcome of another player's side wager. In a preferred embodiment, one player may win based upon another player losing.

A preferred method uses a side wager associated with the conventional game of casino Blackjack. The preferred game is played on the standard Blackjack table with an extra area for making each player to side wager adjacent to the area delineated for making the main wager. There is a video screen for play of the bonus game, in a preferred embodiment including the MONOPOLY[R] game. In principle, wagers may be made with money, gaming chips, credits, or their video or mechanical equivalent and preferably the bonus game is played in a bonus round by a player that has achieved entry thereto during play of a base game of cards. More particularly, the entry into the bonus game requires that the players make a side bet on the occurrence of a predetermined outcome of the base game and the outcome indeed happen.

The game has a method of paying off according to Blackjack rules modified to include a bonus round with incentives for all Blackjack players. The rest of the rules for the base game of Blackjack are normal remaining exactly as before. Indeed, the resolution of the main wager may proceed in exactly the same fashion as in ordinary play. In this way, the invention conforms to the subtle yet common variations in rules and/or conditions that exist between casinos. In the preferred embodiment, the introduction of side betting of bystanders does not cause the overall "optimal" Blackjack strategy to change whatsoever.

Unlike the existing Blackjack side bets where the player has little, if anything, to do, this invention affords the player considerable interest in the outcome of the bonus game. Playing Blackjack with the classical "basic strategy" (a set of rules meant to optimize the player's expectation taking into account only information from the present player and dealer hands) does not guarantee winning on the side bet. The outcome of the side bet is exciting but subject to chance due to random selection.

In another embodiment, players may make the side wager on the dealer's hand, in addition to their own.
DRWDESC:

BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE DRAWINGS

FIG. 1 is a top view illustration shown in perspective of a layout for the preferred embodiment of the equipment.

FIG. 2 is a flow chart showing some steps in the method of play of the preferred game.

FIG. 3 is a schematic diagram of the electronic equipment of the MONOPOLY[R] Blackjack version of the current invention.
DETDESC:

DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE INVENTION

A detailed specification of the preferred game 10 of MONOPOLY[R] Blackjack includes a place 11 for side wagers for each of the players. When used herein, the trademarks, MONOPOLY[R] and Mr. MONOPOLY[R] are those belonging to Hasbro, Inc. The MONOPOLY[R] BLACKJACK card game includes a side wager in Blackjack to participate in the bonus game. Upon a player achieving a qualifying hand, the icon, Mr. MONOPOLY[R], offers the qualifying player the choice of a fixed prize or the chance to play "the MONOPOLY[R] game" by "going to the board." In this manner, the qualifying player with the qualifying hand has an active choice in how the bonus game proceeds. If the player with the qualifying hand chooses to play the MONOPOLY[R] game, play begins on a MONOPOLY[R] board 12 (preferably a video screen) with movement thereabout by a token 14. The award is based on the square 13 randomly selected. For traditional squares 13, the qualifying player receives odds on his/her wager. But if the qualifying player lands in the square 13 designated, "Jail", he/she wins nothing but instead a "Good Samaritan" or "bystanders' bonus" is granted to all other Blackjack side bettors. The terms, "Good Samaritan" or "bystanders" are used throughout this disclosure to cover the other players that are not the qualifying player that is playing directly for the bonus.

In a preferred embodiment this betting bystanders' bonus is awarded to all Blackjack players, whether or not they have made the side wager for the bonus game. Alternatively, the bystanders' bonus could be paid only when the qualifying player gets a randomly selected bonus move that does not pay him/her. In another alternate embodiment, the "bystanders' bonus" is awarded only to those players who have made a side wager.

Game Specifics

Rules of Play for Blackjack Style Game

To begin play, each player makes a wager on one of two optional side wagers on the qualifying hand: either "Red Blackjack" or "Black Blackjack. " In FIG. 1 place 11 is shown as a rectangle but any indication of whereat to bet is within this disclosure including two areas for making each side bet wagers or two coin acceptors. Each wager pays 10 to 1 for a Blackjack that is not the correct color. For example, a player betting on "Red Blackjack" receives 10 to 1 for a mixed color Blackjack consisting of, for example, a red ace and black king, etc. A player betting on "Red Blackjack" also receives 10 to 1 for a Black Blackjack consisting of, for example, a black ace and a black ten, etc.

When the side wagering player is dealt a Blackjack or a two card total of 21 that is, a qualifying hand, e.g. the monochromatically correct color-combination, he/she is said to have qualified to play the bonus game. There is about a 1 in 84 chance of qualifying for each color side wager, hence roughly a 1 in 42 chance for a bettor that wagers on both "Red Blackjack" and "Black Blackjack".

The MONOPOLY[R] BLACKJACK bonus game begins and the player is offered the choice of one of the following: (a) a sure award of fixed odds, or (b) the option to play "the MONOPOLY[R] game."

Taking fixed odds ends the bonus game. The player is paid according to the fixed odds. This may be referred to as a "sure thing" since there is no risk involved in making this decision.

Instead, if the player is so inclined, the player may elect to play the MONOPOLY[R] game, which is then invoked on board 12 shown in FIGS. 1 and 3. During the game, a single square 13 is selected randomly (by a method to be explained later) to determine the outcome of the bonus game. Standard squares 13 pay the player associated odds on his/her wager. Special squares 13, for example ("Go To Jail", "Jail") pay the player nothing, but all other (non qualifying hand) players are paid a "Good Samaritan" or "bystanders' bonus" of fixed odds. Thus, an incentive to play at this table (as opposed to a standard Blackjack table) is afforded to all the other players (whether making the side wager or not in the preferred embodiment) side-betting bystanders who did not qualify and thus are not actively playing in the bonus round.

Algorithmic Flow (Only Side Wager is Portrayed)

1) Player wagers on MONOPOLY[R] BLACKJACK base game 10 and has a side bet at place 11.

2) If player does not receive a Blackjack, side wager is taken, return to step #1.

3) If player receives a Blackjack but not the correct color type, he/she is paid 10 to 1 for each such side wager. If player does not have a Blackjack of the correct type, return to step #1.

4) If player receives a Blackjack of the correct type, dealer initiates bonus sequence via control panel. On the video screen showing board 12 a 3-dimensional Mr. MONOPOLY[R] icon welcomes the winning player to "MONOPOLY[R] Blackjack" as the bonus round. That icon explains that the winning player has a choice by saying, "Welcome! Choose either sure 20 to 1 odds or play the MONOPOLY[R] game."

5) If player selects fixed pay, he/she is paid accordingly. The dealer enters the player's choice via a control panel 14. Return to step #1.

6) If player selects to play the MONOPOLY[R] game, the dealer enters that choice via the control panel 14. The screen then changes to show a MONOPOLY[R] game board having a path of squares 13 for play. An animation of a locomotive begins circling the path of squares 13 at high speed starting from the lower-right "Go" square 13. A plunger 15shown in FIG. 1 connects to a switch 16 in FIG. 3 is automatically armed by the dealer's entry of the player's choice. Upon the locomotive crossing each square 13, that square 13 is highlighted.

7) Upon the bonus round player pressing the plunger, an accompanying sound effect, e.g. train brakes applied, is presented to signal the plunger 15 application. The train concurrently begins to decelerate, and the "odds" values associated with each square 13 (corresponding to current highlighted square 13 beneath the train location) immediately is shown in the center of the game board 18 and designated as, "Title Deeds". After at least one-half but not more than one and one-half revolutions, the locomotive randomly comes to rest on, the MONOPOLY[R] game; a specific property in a particular square 13 and that position of rest is purely a chance event. This property of that square 13 is announced and that determines the outcome of the bonus round of the MONOPOLY[R] game.

8) Should the locomotive have come to rest on a standard (non-Go To Jail, non-Jail) property, the Mr. MONOPOLY[R] icon announces the property. The player is paid appropriate odds associated with the square 13 for the property landed upon. Return to step #1.

9) If the locomotive came to rest on the squares 13 labeled "Chance" or "Community Chest", the Mr. MONOPOLY[R] icon announces the square 13. Additional animation then depicts appropriate cards shuffling and top-card is revealed (e.g., "2 (nd )Prize in Beauty Contest") and the Mr. MONOPOLY[R] icon then announces the event. Player is paid appropriate odds according to that randomly selected event. Return to step #1.

10) Should the locomotive have come to rest on the square 13 marked, "Go To Jail" or "Jail", animation is depicted of a jail cell closing on the Mr. MONOPOLY[R] icon, while stating, "Good Samaritan bonus! Pay all other MONOPOLY[R] Blackjack players 7 to 1 odds!" Return to step #1.

Associated odds for squares 13, shown schematically in FIG. 3, have in a preferred embodiment the values attainable during play of board 12 for pay off to the player:

Table contents not available. Please see the table in the original document. The original document or individual tables may be available via links from this document.

The list of chance events determined randomly appear in the middle 18 of the board 12 by simulated draw of a card from a deck:

Table contents not available. Please see the table in the original document. The original document or individual tables may be available via links from this document.

List of community chest events and is shown in the middle 18 of the board 12 by simulation:

Table contents not available. Please see the table in the original document. The original document or individual tables may be available via links from this document.

With the rules and conditions as given previously, the house advantage is a function of how many other side wagers are made concurrently. This is due to the "Good Samaritan" or "bystanders' bonus" feature, which all players receive when someone lands in jail. For a table 10 in which all positions wager on the base game, each individual side wager has a house advantage of 7.38%. For a table 10 with only a player wagering on the base game and side wager, the house advantage is 12.78%. All other cases fall in between these bounds. It is an advantage of this invention that as the number of players increases, the house advantage per player decreases. The invention thus has a stabilizing effect on overall revenue.

Hardware Description

In FIGS. 1 and 3 a 17" or 18" LCD flat-screen full-color panel is shown for board 12 mounted on the card table 10 and is visible to all players and dealer. Remote radio frequency switch 16 is accessible to the player in the shape of the small plunger 15 with a thematic "top hat" shell, see FIG. 1. Dealer control pad 14 is used to control the play of the bonus game after arming the remote radio frequency switch 16.

Associated computer hardware 19 in FIG. 3 connected to the remote radio frequency switch 16 and the control pad 14 for game functionality is shown schematically and can be positioned remotely.

While the preferred embodiment includes a MONOPOLY[R] bonus game 10, those skilled artisans will appreciate that the side betting bystander's bonus can be included in any form of random selection bonus game. Blackjack as a base game is shown and described as the preferred embodiment. That is not to say that other table card games such as Caribbean Stud[R] poker, Let It Ride card game, Pai Gow poker, etc. could not be adapted to this invention by one skilled in the art. Also non-side- betting bystanders are afforded a chance to win in the preferred embodiment but that is not essential. An alternate game might require a side bet to participate in the bonus. The bonuses are fixed amounts in the example but one or more could be linked to a progressive jackpot.

Note also that while the foregoing has been presented in terms of an optional side wager, the invention can also be utilized as a primary wager. In this case, all other players wagering simultaneously may be considered the "side wagering bystander players." In particular, the novel feature of paying others when the qualifying hand player loses can still be used in the embodiment wherein the invention is a primary wager. In the claims that follow the term, "payment" is credits or money as this is a casino game and may results from a win of fixed odds or a jackpot including a progressive.

ENGLISH-CLAIMS:
Return to Top of Patent

What is claimed is:

1. A method of playing a Blackjack casino game with money, gaming chips, and/or credits by one or more players playing against a dealer at a table whereat cards are dealt, the method includes awarding some of the one or more players based on the resolution of a bonus game outcome comprising the steps of: providing each player with a main wagering area and at least one side wagering area; each player placing a main wager on their main wagering area to participate in the Blackjack game, and permitting each player to side wager optionally on at least one side wagering area to participate in the bonus game; if after the cards are dealt and if a predetermined arrangement of cards were dealt to at least one wagering player, then allowing the player with the predetermined arrangement of cards to play the bonus game, and paying each of the other players not playing the bonus game but having placed a main wager on the Blackjack game according to the outcome of the bonus game.

2. The method of playing Blackjack according to claim 1 further comprising the step of having a monochromatic two card total of 21 as the predetermined arrangement of cards for allowing play of the bonus game.

3. The method of playing Blackjack according to claim 1 further comprising the step of paying at least one other player not playing the bonus game if the playing player ends with a nonpaying bonus.

4. A method of playing a game of chance comprising the steps of: a particular player making a particular wager on a resolution of the game of chance; one or more other players at the game of chance each respectively making one or more other wagers different from the particular wager, and awarding the one or more other players based upon a resolution of an outcome of the particular wager of the particular player.


Correction: Random, but not evenly distributed
Posted by Running Count on 30-Jun-2003 10:16:57 (#4390)

I should have been more precise. The distribution of the outcomes is "random," but random as in the wheel of fortune side-bet, not as in roulette. In other words, the 1 to 125 payoff does not occur with the regularity that it would on-its-face indicate. At least that's what I get from the patent application (though the specific odds tables are missing).

RC


revere's apc
Posted by ian on 25-Jun-2003 15:17:19 (#4353)

I am looking for anyone who uses Revere's apc and is interested in swapping stories and advice. Send me your email if interested.

Thanks


Blackjack Apprenticeship

A First Time for Everything...
Posted by hinoon on 26-Jun-2003 18:20:39 (#4359)

Here's my trip report for my first experience as a (semi) AP player:

____

So, after months of study, I bit the bullet. I packed up my bags and headed out to Vegas to put these new skills to the test. Here's my account of my first time, and I'm sticking to it:

My bankroll is far from sufficient. Enough to allow me to spread to a max bet of 2 hands of 2 units. But it's enough to put me into the game, if only for a few days.

The first night I'm there, I watch in amazement, back-counting and testing myself to just see that I can do it. I'm staying at an upscale resort, thanks to the generosity of a friend, and am prohibited from laying down bets, merely by the table minimums.

My friend, proficient in AP, plays through and to my surprise, I do pretty well at following the RC, and understanding when he spreads his bets. Later in the evening, I watch as the count shoots up into double digits...and am frustrated when my friend's bets don't change...until I notice the burly fellow behind the dealer, dressed in a slate gray Italian suit. I realize that as much attention is needed to environment as is needed to the cards if I want to really stay in this game.

Keeping the TC is another issue. I can estimate it, but not fast enough. A mental note to add a new element to my training when I get home. This problem is partially solved by sticking to double-deck. The face-up action in the shoe games is easy to follow, but I find that the face-down action of double deck is even easier. Without the face-up cards, I don't have the urge to check and recheck my count. I have one shot and I'd better get it right.

The next day, it's time to put up or shut up. I try my hand at wonging into some positive counts. There are now three mentors watching my play, and my nerves are on edge. Coffee? Eff that. I have adrenaline on my side. After a few initial stumbles...I'm actually playing with reasonable proficiency.

Over the course of the day, I learn a LOT. And one thing I learn is humility. I'm up by a handful of units, but this has more to do with providence than my abilities. Sure, I'm playing smarter than a ploppy, but I'm not as good as I should be. My BS is weak. In all of my efforts to increase my counting speed, I slacked off on my Basic Strategy, and it shows. I balk at A7's.

By the end of the night, I've been to five casinos, and am awash with new sensations. I am up a considerable amount by this stage. My friends ask deliberate questions to keep me on track...am I trying to make as much money as possible? Or am I trying to play correctly? How does the win affect my attitude? Am I going to quit, now that I am ahead?

The next morning, I can't get my eyes open fully. Even a steak and egg breakfast can't quite bring me up to steam...but I forge ahead.

The night before, I'd watched the casino behave in a terrible manner. A drunk ploppy was betting 10K at a time, spread 2x $5K. He lost 60K in 2 minutes. He didn't know or care. Then, his luck turned, and in 20 minutes, he'd cleared the casino's rack. Twice. He wasn't counting, or, if he was, he wasn't using any count I'd ever seen. He was hitting hard 18's. Any responsible casino should have seen his play as unacceptable, and comped him a room and some coffee.

The fact that he won isn't relevant...He was barely able to stand. I'm all for fair play...if the guy has cash to blow, then more power to the Casinos for providing a hospitable atmosphere for him to blow it in. But I'm also all for the Casinos stepping to the plate and behaving responsibly. A bar that won't let a drunk patron drive home is acknowledging that the service they provide can end up hurting the consumer. A Casino should have the same standards. Just my personal rant.

So, two days in and I'm up fairly big. My BR has gained by a third. I haven't had a bad streak yet, and I know this is the worst possible thing for a new player. How can you NOT feel invincible? My friends aren't faring so well, and I feel guilty for the luck that is handing me blackjacks in counts so negative that by all rights, the only hands that should be coming out should be pairs of 2's followed by more pairs of 2's.

Day three hits and my body is numb from the rush of adrenaline. I'm pretty sure my brain is tapped out. My eyes are glazed over. I'm drinking Red Bulls now, ignoring their vitamin-laced flavor.

My friend hits the best damn BJ I've ever seen. The dealer pays him full odds...for two A's, no ten in sight. I think that everyone in Vegas needs a nap.

I watch a team in a downtown casino. They're good. They have great cover....they're wasted. They could blend in perfectly at an Appalachian family reunion, neck tattoos and all. The fellow that catches my attention isn't masking his spread at all. He's not getting much heat, even though he's spreading $5 to 2x$50 at the drop of a hat. He has 10K in front of him. When I come back from breakfast, his teammates are gone, and his BR is down to its last leg. He orders a final Crown and Coke, and bleeds himself dry. Even good players have bad days.

And then I start to lose. Part of this is my fault directly. My friends can barely contain themselves as I absent-mindedly split 4's against a 2. Fatigue has taken its toll, and my weak BS foundation has started to crumble. My companions are losing too though, and it has little to do with their ability. They're playing right, and the dealers keep pulling 6 card 21's. Welcome to Variance, Nevada...population 4.

I call it quits for the day. I know I'm too tired to play well. This is a good lesson to learn the hard way.

The next day, I wake up and catch my flight home, glad to have a weekend to recover before I stagger into my normal office life...

I've had an incredible experience. I've had the good fortune to learn and study under three people whose character and skills exceed my abilities to express admiration. I've experienced a slight taste of variance. I've seen Vegas through new eyes.

And now I have a goal. I have a new appreciation for how much I need to study the foundations. I have a great respect for those of you who have been doing this for an extended period of time. I'm going to practice, study, and learn...and I will return.

End result = +10 units and a WHOLE lot of data to process.

-- HiNoon


Re: A First Time for Everything...
Posted by Tito on 27-Jun-2003 01:59:30 (#4362)

Hi Hi Hi noon, thanks for that brings back memories every one remembers their fist time when you say to yourself it really works and it works for me!Hope your next trips will be successfull.Good luck to you enjoy.Tito.


Re: A First Time for Everything...
Posted by FLA Player on 27-Jun-2003 08:10:10 (#4363)

Great trip report- a couple of questions: Where you playing mostly 2 deck? Any 6 deck? What count where you using? What was your trip BR?

I also had a great 1st time as an AP (up 4K), your observations as far as the mental highs and lows are the same as what I experienced.... sounds like the other APs with you were able to keep that in check.

FLA Player


Re: A First Time for Everything...
Posted by hinoon on 27-Jun-2003 13:12:07 (#4365)

Hi,

I played mostly 2 deck, but I did wong into 6 deck shoes with some success.

I was using Hi/Low. I've been told by a few people to stick with Hi/Low for my first 200 hours of table time. I think that makes sense. I've read about and considered other counts, but I'm so new to this, Hi/Low is the best foundation I can have.

My bankroll, like I said, was pretty insufficient for serious play. I walked in with a staggering 120 units at my disposal. But I was also willing to accept the greater risk of ruin in return for the experience. I have a replenishable BR...I do freelance work that is dedicated to bolstering my BR. So while it would have sucked had I lost it all...it would have merely been a lesson, not the end of my "career".

This trip was a "testing the waters" kind of trip. What I've found is that the appropriate sized BR is indeed neccessary if this is to be a long term thing. As is properly adjusting your bet limits in accordance to your BR. I've also found that NOTHING can replace a solid, flawless knowledge of Basic Strategy.

back to the books.

--Hinoon


Re: A First Time for Everything...
Posted by Feepness on 27-Jun-2003 14:25:14 (#4367)

Ironically, advice from a newer counter may be better than an old-hand. I've got 125 logged hours under my belt which is a goodly amount, but nothing to the BJ gods of course. I'm up 130 units though so I can't complain. My win rate is improving steadily as well.

I started getting into counting about 9 months ago and taking trips six months ago.

I wouldn't worry about your basic strategy. Now, that doesn't mean I wouldn't CARE about your BS. Just don't worry about it. Pretty soon the tables start to get embedded. I can picture them right now. And that A7 row is one of the most annoying, in fact probably the worst. I didn't have my BS down either when I started. But believe me, when you can't remember what to do on a hand it sticks in your mind. Consult your books before/after and they will sink in and sink hard. Pretty soon each row starts to get it's own personality in your mind and you can recreate them at will. One by one each row will start to get "easy" and then the whole thing will be down pat. Next you'll start to be able to see the strategy changes as well because they get embedded as the few "differences" to what you know.

The harder thing is dealing with the variance. I have been -80 units and +210 units. My problem is placing the large bets. Getting easier though, last time I played I lost two 10 unit bets and was still up 25 units at session end. I also have difficulty acting normal while counting though I haven't gotten any backoffs (been half-shoed though -- ran like a bunny).

Feep


Good for you!
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Jun-2003 14:04:26 (#4366)

Welcome to the club! You sound like you have the makings of the real thing!

--Mayor


A Question
Posted by suicyco maniac on 27-Jun-2003 14:32:41 (#4368)

If it is true you saw a team of counters downtown is it really a good idea to give specific details about how they looked? However if they were really slamming down the booze then they do not have the self control to play and win at this game so it might be a moot point.


Re: A Question
Posted by hinoon on 30-Jun-2003 13:23:03 (#4393)

This is a question that was very present in my mind while writing the report. The details I chose to include added color to the description, but really don't serve to identify anyone specifically (since neck tattoos are as common in downtown LV as flip-flops on the beach, I figured that wasn't a particularly revealing detail.).

Their style of play was certainly far more dangerous to their longevity than anything I posted, but I wouldn't want to inadvertently cause a fellow AP player undue heat.

I do appreciate the concern and the reasoning behind your question. Please rest assured that the details I included were carefully thought-out rather than simply plucked from memory and reported directly.


Re: A First Time for Everything...
Posted by Henry Tamburin on 27-Jun-2003 21:45:48 (#4371)

Congratulations on getting your feet in the wonderful world of AP. You might want to consider using a readily avaiable blackjack software program to hone your card counting skills. Several that I can recommend are Blackjack Counter and Blackjack Mentor (free downloads on www.handheldblackjack.com), Blackjack 678 version 2003(www.stickysoft.com), and the new Casino Vertie Blackjack Lite (www.qfit.com). They are all priced under $50 and well worth it to help develop your card counting skills. No matter what you do, pay attention to ROR because this has been the downfall of most wanna-be card counters.

Regards,
Henry Tamburin
www.bjinsider.com


Your Favorite Betting Scheme?
Posted by Jesse on 28-Jun-2003 00:36:09 (#4372)

Before I go on my first big casino trip ide like to know what are some of your all's betting methods?
The one i'm prob. going to use is the one from "Take the Money and Run" which is bet 1 unit win go to 2 units and so on till you reach 5 units, if you lose stay at one unless your running count is +3 or better then bet 2 units even if you lost the last hand and go from 1,2,3,5 units.
Ive seen others where you bet $25-$100 if true count is 0 or less then bet $25 if its +1 bet $50 +2 bet $75 then if its +3 or more bet $100.
I am a $5-$25 player right now because of the size of my bankroll so ide appreciate it if I could get some responses on diff. betting strategies thats worked for you all at the range of $5-$25 thank you.


Re: Your Favorite Betting Scheme?
Posted by Learning to count on 28-Jun-2003 10:41:21 (#4373)

"Before I go on my first big casino trip I would like to know what are some of your all's betting methods?"

My strategy is not to use a progession as you are expounding in this post. Learn basic strategy and bet flat. You will stay within the casino vig. Next learn a good counting system like HI-LO or KO Black Jack. As far as betting goes this is a complicated issue. You must undestand several mathmatical concepts that include Rate of Ruin ROR, Espected Value EV, and bet per the True Count. You must Avoid overbetting your bank roll. These concepts are included in those books that discuss card counting. Then you must understand the relevance of a bank roll and its coresponding bet size per the count which equal the amount of win rate. Then there is standard deviation. This is the amount you could lose or win at any period in your expected life time of play. This is the killer I know I am presently getting a bad taste of negative deviation. When you have this all in mind go for it. Just dont lose the mortgage payment.

"The one i'm prob. going to use is the one from "Take the Money and Run" which is bet 1 unit win go to 2 units and so on till you reach 5 units, if you lose stay at one unless your running count is +3 or better then bet 2 units even if you lost the last hand and go from 1,2,3,5 units."

Sounds like a progession with counting. This could unbalance your standard deviation which would put you at a disadvatage and below the negative deviation point. You could get lucky and go through a win streak but then that would be voodoo.

"Ive seen others where you bet $25-$100 if true count is 0 or less then bet"

Whew...are you trolling? Buy the book!

" $25 if its +1 bet $50 +2 bet $75 then if its +3 or more bet $100."

In all due respect this is a worthless "bet strategy". You have a high ROR.

"I am a $5-$25 player right now because of the size of my bankroll so I would appreciate it if I could get some responses on diff. betting strategies thats worked for you all at the range of $5-$25 thank you."

So in other words you have a $5000 bank roll. Read a better book. There is a fine list of proven books listed on this web site go to the green side of the board and scroll down and click on the reading list. If you want advice great welcome; if your here trolling fish in another ocean. I dont mean to be rude but we get a lot of small people here who like to cause disturbances.


Please.
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Jun-2003 11:38:57 (#4374)

Jesse,

A word of advice, read my essays on progression systems.

http://www.cardcounter.com/Mythology/Myth_Progression_systems_1.htm

http://www.cardcounter.com/Mythology/Myth_Progression_systems_2.htm

http://www.cardcounter.com/Mythology/Myth_Progression_systems_3.htm

All betting systems that are not correlated directly with your advantage, by using a method such as counting, are equally worthless. Moreover, it is the policy of this site to not permit discussion of this matter.

Any book that promotes progression systems as winning, without reference to a counting system or other advantage play, is worthless. Note that the book you mention, by Henry Tamburin, associates a count with the bets -- other betting systems that are not count correlated should be thrown in the dumpster.

--Mayor


Re: Your Favorite Betting Scheme?
Posted by Jesse on 30-Jun-2003 21:30:01 (#4397)

No I am not trolling I came here looking for advice but from your response I did not get the response I was looking for. As in how your betting stratgey is?
You told me your a $5-$25 player like me but did not specify how you bet your hands?
Yes i have read good books started out with "Take the Money and Run" then went on on to "Proffesional Blackjack" and "Blackjack for Blood".
I know the high low count the basic strategy and the strategy number charts for mutiple decks S17 doubling after splitting and no doubling after splitting.
I'm using a bankroll 100 times my max. bet.
My problem is knowing what the best way to bet my hands depending on the count?


Re: Your Favorite Betting Scheme?
Posted by Henry Tamburin on 29-Jun-2003 15:08:39 (#4381)

The running count betting system in my book is for beginners that want to play even or with a tiny edge (depending on the rules). You should try to learn the complete Hi Lo counting system to gain an even greater edge. As others have metioned it's important to also understand Risk of Ruin and bankroll requirements. Even with the edge you can still lose a lot of money in the short run at blackjack.

Regards,

Henry Tamburin
www.bjinsider.com


Re: Your Favorite Betting Scheme?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 30-Jun-2003 08:47:54 (#4388)

There is a book I must add to my collection! smile As the Mayor states, no progression that is not based on a count (or on your positive edge vs onLine casinos) is fantasy land. I have an article by Frank Scoblete that describes using a progression within your usual bet. Say you are a $100 bettor when you got to Vegas. By betting 5 10 20 40 then 80 you are actually betting LESS into a negative EV game, which is sound thinking. If you are playing a positive EV game you can do the same thing within the COUNT. If your +2TC calls for a bet of $100, and +3TC $200 (called TC-1 in black) you can underbet your advantage by using a "rising bet method." I too hate to see the word progression. Progo and huckster often go hand in hand, and the Mayor with his logical approach is well to warn you off going down that road.

Know what you are trying to accomplish and use the right tools to do it.

Blackjack Professional
http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/index.html


Re: Your Favorite Betting Scheme?
Posted by Jesse on 30-Jun-2003 21:17:28 (#4396)

Thanks for your response Tamburin, learn the stratgey of the hi-low counting system as in what to do on the hand depending on the count? If that is what you mean I already have studied the charts for that and know it well, but how should I bet? Being a $5-$25 bettor.
Thank you again and I would really appreciate a response on what you thiink is a good betting strategy for that.


Betting on Neutral Counts
Posted by NorCalBJ on 28-Jun-2003 19:54:04 (#4375)

I've heard from so many people that you bet two units on an even count, one on a negative count, and then more on positive counts. My question is this: why bet more on an even count than on a negative count? Yes, even is better than negative, but the house has the advantage on even counts. It is small, less than one half percent if you play perfect BS, but it is still a small disadvantage.
It seems like you would always bet less on even and negative counts, and only raise the bet on positive counts.
I am fairly new to card counting. I live near an Indian Casino (good rules, single deck) in Northern California and play there when I can. I am a college student with limited funds so I play with 5 dollar units. I have had 28 sessions since the first of the year. I have won 15 and lost 13 times. My wonder is, would I have even better success if I lower my even count bets?
Any advice would be great.


Re: Betting on Neutral Counts
Posted by Learning to count on 28-Jun-2003 21:15:33 (#4376)

"I've heard from so many people that you bet two units on an even count, one on a negative count, and then more on positive counts. My question is this: why bet more on an even count than on a negative count? Yes, even is better than negative, but the house has the advantage on even counts. It is small, less than one half percent if you play perfect BS, but it is still a small disadvantage."

First of all there are two basic ways of playing. One is "PLAY ALL which means you will enter at the beggining of the shoe and play to the end. When you PLAY ALL the basic strategy is to bet one unit at negative and nuetral counts. You raise your bet at a true count of +1. The bet is raised at higher true counts. Your are correct that the casino still has the advantage at 0. Who ever told you raise your bet at nuetral counts is living on the negative edge. Play all requires a good size bankroll even for red chip.

The second way is to WONG". This means you will enter at a plus one and play as long as you have the advantage. Once the TC dips below plus one you leave. Other variations are to leave when the tc is -1 or to start at the beginning of the shoe and leaving (WONG OUT) at a negative one or when the advantage dips below plus one. Your bet amount when wonging should be gauged by your bankroll and what rate of ruin you want to play at. There are several books listed in the reading list on the left of your screen. These books explain the balance of your bets to the count, bankroll, ROR,and expected value or win rate.

"It seems like you would always bet less on even and negative counts, and only raise the bet on positive counts. I am fairly new to card counting. I live near an Indian Casino (good rules, single deck) in Northern California and play there when I can. I am a college student with limited funds so I play with 5 dollar units. I have had 28 sessions since the first of the year. I have won 15 and lost 13 times. My wonder is, would I have even better success if I lower my even count bets?
Any advice would be great."

All I can say is read read read, meorize memorize memorize, practice practice practice, ask questions ask questions ask questions. In multiple deck games dont play at a TC of less than +1. For single deck bet 1 unit at negative counts and nuetral. Even better if the deck is negative at the first round go to the bathroom. This is my humble and novice oppinion. LTC


Optimal betting
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Jun-2003 21:20:35 (#4377)

Optimal betting does not have one betting 2 units at a neutral count. However, bet spread and getting away with it is more important.

I spread 16-1 just recently at a single deck game in Downtown Vegas. This is not possible normally, but I got away with it just fine. How?

2 hands of 2 units off the top.

Count goes negative, 1 hand of 1 unit.

Count goes very positive, 2 hands of 8 units.

It looks like a simple 4-1 spread...

There is a lot to be gained by not betting min at neutral bets.

--Mayor


Re: Optimal betting
Posted by Henry Tamburin on 29-Jun-2003 15:19:23 (#4382)

I agree with the Mayor. In the old days I never use to bet more than 1 unit on neutral counts. But in the single and even two deck Vegas games nowadays I do like the Mayor suggested - bet two hands or 2 units after the shuffle then bet up or down depending upon where the count goes (allows me to get a bigger bet spread). It costs you a little in EV but it is worth it for longetivity at the tables.

Regards,
Henry Tamburin
www.bjinsider.com

Regards,


Nor Cal single deck
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Jun-2003 10:35:53 (#4380)

You said you think this is good single deck -- I am not aware of ANY good single deck offered in California --

what are the rules?
what is the penetration (how many rounds/cards are dealt between shuffles)?

I have a feeling you are either playing Super Fun 21 or else a game with lousy penetration, in either case, not worth it.

--Mayor


Re: Nor Cal single deck
Posted by NorCalBJ on 29-Jun-2003 23:39:29 (#4384)

It is not super fun. It is single deck, double on any 2, bj pays 3-2, split anything, no double after split. Seems to be no heat. Most pit bosses are young people. It is full of ploppies most of the time. They bus people in from the bay area to lose their welfare check. Middle of the night until about 10 am on weekdays is slow. The last three times I have gone early in the morning I have gotten heads up play. Penetration is usually around 60%. When I go early in the mornings and play heads up I get very good penetration.
Tables are $5-200. There is usally a $25-200 table open. It is ideal for someone with a nice roll because everybody there packs the $5 table and leaves the $25-200 open for heads up or two on one play.


Re: Nor Cal single deck
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Jun-2003 10:12:30 (#4389)

OK, tear it up.

A 4-1 spread is more than adequate. $5 when TC <=1, then up the ladder ... BET = $5xTC ... note that this is still not an optimal spread. If you start getting some heat, use some cover bets (bet large off the top, small when the count shoots up) until they go away.

--Mayor


Re: Nor Cal single deck
Posted by NorCalBJ on 30-Jun-2003 17:13:24 (#4395)

Thanks for the advice, Mayor.
I read "Golden Gate" last night and enjoyed it. I am actually writing a novel right now. When I finish it and sell it, if I ever do, my next one is going to be about a male/female counting team.


Re: Man+Woman=Team!
Posted by Sonny on 01-Jul-2003 20:20:43 (#4402)

>...my next one is going to be about a male/female counting team.

Sounds great! There's PLENTY of great material there. My wife and I have played as a team quite a few times. It's a great way to increase your EV, and it is MUCH more fun that counting alone. Plus it keeps her away from the stores while I'm at the tables!

-Sonny-


Re: Nor Cal single deck
Posted by Running Count on 30-Jun-2003 10:25:29 (#4391)

You won't be more specific about where this is? I live in the Bay Area, and I've NEVER heard of single deck with those rules closer than Reno in any discussion on any blackjack site, until now.

Not that you're wrong -- I'm just skeptical until I hear confirmation from another source.


Re: Nor Cal single deck
Posted by NorCalBJ on 30-Jun-2003 17:10:38 (#4394)

Running Count:

My email is pete_95973@yahoo.com
I'll be glad to tell you the details over email.


Proper Logic?
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 29-Jun-2003 23:49:52 (#4385)

Single deck...

The deck composition-based basic strategy play of standing on a pair of sevens against a ten exists because there is half the chance of pulling a third seven for 21, since two of them have already been dealt.

Therefore, If it is known that at least 2 sevens are out of the deck, one should stand against any hard total of fourteen against a dealer ten in a single-deck game.

I am a single-deck nubie to be sure, but I made an impromptu play to this effect recently:

One other player at the table
He pulled a pair of sevens and scratched the felt
He pulled a ten and busted
I stood on my ten + four

was this proper logic?

I'm sorry, I can't remember the count. Let's just say it was even.

Thanks
-Felix


Re: Proper Logic?
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Jun-2003 01:07:30 (#4386)

I don't know if your play is correct, with the T coming out and the T-4 in your hand, you should almost certainly hit.

The 7-7 Vs. dealer T play is off the top composition dependent basic strategy. Once other cards have been played, things change.

Once I had a T-4, against the dealer T. Guy to my right hits his 7-7, pulls a 7 making his 21. I pass, using your logic (even stronger-- since I saw a third 7). The dealer flips over a 4, then draws the last 7.

Life happens.

--Mayor


Re: Proper Logic? *LINK*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 30-Jun-2003 08:14:15 (#4387)

"I'm sorry, I can't remember the count. Let's just say it was even."

We would require the count to determine the proper logic/play for this hand. You can also see the logic behind a side seven count.


Re: Proper Logic?
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 30-Jun-2003 12:31:24 (#4392)

Yea, I pretty much figured this would fall into the realm of the 7 sidecount for a proper answer. I'll look into the circumstances when this is a correct play for the sake of curiosity, but I don't think I want to take on a sidecount right now.

I imagine you more seasoned players have accumulated bunches of plays that are correct, yet not directly tied to the system you use.

Thanks for the responses guys.


Favorite Place in Vegas
Posted by Big Cowboy on 01-Jul-2003 16:09:16 (#4400)

So I love reading how you guys like to go downtown even though it seems to be a pit based on your descriptions. Very colorful indeed. I'm just curious though if there is a favorite place and why where people like to go play BJ. I'm heading out to Vegas in the fall and am curious. Personally, I like to play at Mandalay Bay because they have a lot of tables. It is comfortable, not too smoky, and clean. And I've never had heat there. I play even though it is with six deck shoes with pretty good rules and 75% penetration but sometimes on the weekends their minimums are a little out of my league.


Re: Favorite Place in Vegas
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Jul-2003 19:45:27 (#4401)

Goals change -- places change -- and because of this constant change it is impossible to say anything today that I would stick to tomorrow.

On the last trip my favorite place was a dumpy little casino not actually in Las Vegas (but close).

--Mayor


Re: Favorite Place in Vegas *LINK*
Posted by Sonny on 01-Jul-2003 21:02:57 (#4404)

Downtown is great because it is like a big shopping mall of casinos. This means that they have to stay competitive (to a degree) since people can walk 10 yards down and be at the door of another casino. It also means that you can marvel at the spectacular "wall-to-wall lights and sights."

Like the Mayor said, conditions change from day-to-day and shift-to-shift. Your best bet is to just walk up and down Fremont St. and walk through EVERY casino there. Stick your head in and see what games they offer and what kind of penetration you can get. Since it is your first time there, you will want to see all of the sights anyway!

It's also a good idea to have a "bible" with you on your trip. Before every trip I always go to Trackjack and print a copy of the conditions (rules, table limits, average pen) at all the casinos there. Then I will go through and mark the ones I want to visit and why (maybe because they have good rules, good pen, low limits, lots of tables, or whatever reason). This way you can have a good idea of where to check first, and you can also know the house edges when you walk into any other casinos.

If you don't want to pay for Trackjack, check out http://www.skister.com/bj/ for a free (but rather outdated) list. It will at least give you an idea of what to expect.

Give us a full report when you get back!

-Sonny-


Re: Favorite Place in Vegas
Posted by FLA Player on 02-Jul-2003 08:06:18 (#4405)

I tend to stick to the strip (MGM, Palms, Mirage, Bellagio, etc) based on Trackjack and BJF reports on conditions (I play 6 deck).

I did go downtown on my last trip based on comments from LTC and The Mayor, it is well worth it- but I wouldn't go to the Western or the El Cortez too late at night, at least without a semi-automatic weapon.

I think the best combo of conditions and atmosphere is The Palms, probably my favorite place.... and when you throw in the hotties hanging out, it is pretty hard to beat

FLA Player


Re: Favorite Place in Vegas
Posted by Learning to count on 02-Jul-2003 08:43:41 (#4406)

I gotta agree with FLA-Player the palms is the place for chicks. My buddy PJ scored two nights in a row there! One night with two swedish twins and one night with a starlet. PJ is a chick magnate >: ). All in all the Palms is a fun place to party and play. They have mainly six decks with up to a one or less deck cut off. Great place to Wong but keep your time playing to less than two hours if you are showing a definite win.

If you are looking to play seriously then follow the Mayors advice and be on the track for good games. Sonny does have a point you need intelligence; track jack or cbjn are excellent sources for intell. The Western is very sweaty right now and will shuffle up on you if you raise a bet on a climbing count. The El Cortez is the prime place to learn about heat and sweat. Go there and test the waters. The average back off level for the el cortez is to be 30-35 dollars. Then the mama sans will be on you.

I like the LVC in the early morning. They have 3 and 5 dollar single deck and you can play heads up for an hour or so. The average pen is RO5 which sux but you can get RO6 plus from time to time. This is if you play heads up. The restuarant at LVC has a great breakfast for a reasonable downtown price and the pit critters are easy with the food comps.


Re: Favorite Place in Vegas
Posted by MLB scout on 02-Jul-2003 13:18:40 (#4407)

:: Palms :: "mainly six decks with up to a one or less deck cut off".

Learning to count, are you sure about this? "or less"?? I have never seen less than a deck cut off there. Mostly 1.4 - 1.6. Regardless of the rules, this possibly could be the best game in Vegas, if not the world.

mlb


Re: Favorite Place in Vegas
Posted by Learning to count on 02-Jul-2003 15:33:22 (#4411)

Its not the standard for sure but it is there if you look. In the mornings from 2 am till 900am you will see it. Also just try asking the dealer. I had them cut one deck off many a time just by asking. Some will say all I can do is 1.5 per the boss but others will extend the courtesy. A couple of times they have ciut real thin for the guys and I. We saw 75% cut off on some two deckers but that will remain a secret as to where. As I said is is not the norm. Watch out for heat if you take advantage. When the tables are full in the eveningthen you will get 1-1.4 cut off depending on the dealers who's working. A lot of AP"s have been complaining about the palms and heat. If your a nickle player and spread 1-20 you should not get heat. I was spreading two hands of 45 -65 with no heat. I took an arse kicking but no heat. I like the Palms but it is a tough game.


Olympic Gardens :-) *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 02-Jul-2003 14:12:13 (#4408)


Re: Olympic Gardens :-)
Posted by PJ on 02-Jul-2003 15:34:35 (#4412)

Hey for the money you blow there ya mind as well get a hooker.


Re: Olympic Gardens :-)
Posted by suicyco maniac on 03-Jul-2003 13:07:47 (#4418)

Some times life is a lot like blackjack. It is often more about the challenge then the money....... :)


Trackjack or BJF?
Posted by Running Count on 02-Jul-2003 14:50:05 (#4409)

So now there is competition in the world of online blackjack conditions. Exciting. I am going to pay for one or the other of Trackjack or BJFonline's new service.

I know a little about both. TJ is affiliated with Parker and the folks at Advantageplayer.com. BJFonline is the online version of the print listings, published by Arnold Snyder et. al. Trackjack costs $30 for 3 months or so, while BJF's service comes only with a subscription (for now) at the going rate of $59 a year.

So the question is... Which one do you all suggest?

RC


Did you forget about CBJN? *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 02-Jul-2003 15:13:46 (#4410)


Re: Did you forget about CBJN?
Posted by Learning to count on 02-Jul-2003 15:48:57 (#4413)

Oye OSO de Las Vegas Gracias por el libro de SW Y La firma!!!!

CBJN, TRACKJACK, BJ FORUM ooooooooo my head hurts. I had them all. I subscribed to BJF for two years, I subscribed to TJ for a year for less than the now price, I have had CBJN for two years. TJ's strength is its ability to have day to day info put on by players. Yet few do so. It is a great service. Its info is close to that of CBJN. BJF is sent out evry three months and was great when it was the only service out there. Now they are going on line with day to day reports. Knowing Mr. Snyder it should be a valuable service. Now CBJN is what I have now and I ma very happy with it. It is definitely equal the others. It is simple to use and the reports are good. I like the monthly news attachment and the new week to week e-mail that LVBEAR sends. WHo knows with the avenue that the bear is going with the newsletter and his editorials "the Bear Growls" he may have to run for city council.


I guess I did! Sorry! Tell me why its better... *NM*
Posted by Running Count on 02-Jul-2003 17:29:43 (#4414)


No Brainer
Posted by Bob Turner on 04-Jul-2003 10:12:12 (#4427)

For various reasons, BJF online is hands down the only way to go.


3 Balls Golf

14 AGAINTS 10
Posted by ssho on 03-Jul-2003 12:09:57 (#4416)

DEAR SIR
SHOULD I HIT OR SURRENDER HARD TOTAL 14 [ (7,7) , (8,6) , (9,5) & (10,4) ] AGAINTS DEALER UPCARD 10 ?
THE RULES ARE :
1) 4 DECKS DEALT FROM CONTINUOUS SHUFFLE MACHINE
2) EUROPEAN NO HOLE CARD
3) LATE SURRENDER
CHEERS
SSHO


Re: 14 AGAINTS 10
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Jul-2003 13:37:33 (#4420)

Hit.


Re: 14 AGAINTS 10
Posted by Mr. Ed on 03-Jul-2003 15:47:26 (#4422)

You meant to say,

HIT

Cheers!


CORRECT answer!
Posted by Sonny on 03-Jul-2003 16:25:10 (#4423)

The CORRECT answer is to get up and walk away from the continuous shuffler machine! But since you simply asked about the correct Basic Strategy play, yes you should hit.

-Sonny-

P.S.- Every little step towards boycotting those hideous machines helps!


I stand corrected *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Jul-2003 17:27:30 (#4424)


Re: CORRECT answer!
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 03-Jul-2003 19:58:52 (#4425)

I played a continuous shuffle machine last time in Vegas.

On the North strip with a 7 for 5 matchplay. I played only the one hand, (on 4 occasions). If you must play a CSM do it this way. Oh yea... and Hit the 14 on the 10.

-Felix


Single Deck: Stand if you have 7,7 Against 10 *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Jul-2003 16:04:54 (#4431)


New Single 21 game basic strategy
Posted by Shadow on 03-Jul-2003 12:23:22 (#4417)

Has anyone developed a basice strategy yet for the new Single 21 game?

I discovered this game late on a recent trip to Tunica Mississippi and I was winning back some of my previous days losses and it was time to come back home.

I found the rules at this site http://www.customstrategycards.com/bj_rules_sgl21.htm

It seems to me that this game could be beat. I don't see how not being paid 3 to 2 for some blackjacks would offset all the other rules they have that are an advantage to the player. I was surrendering like crazy and never betting much and still winning pretty good.


BJ 3:2 is a HUGE Advantage for the Player!
Posted by SammyBoy on 03-Jul-2003 13:09:34 (#4419)

This sounds like SF21. Unless you know how to beat this game (a few do) you should not play it.


Re: New Single 21 game basic strategy
Posted by CougFan on 03-Jul-2003 15:30:36 (#4421)

Its hard to even conceive of potential rule changes that could offset the even money payoff for blackjack, short of extremely unlikely ones like players winning all ties or getting 3/4 or your bet back when surrendering. Any of the "normal" rules variations like enhanced surrender / double down, etc will not even come close.


Probably can play it like SF21...
Posted by phantom007 on 04-Jul-2003 01:39:52 (#4426)

...While I admit I did not do a "Line-by-Line" comparison of the rules, both games look very similar, except for the 3:2 Suited BJ in Single, whereas it is limited to Diamonds in SF21. I would suspect that Single21 is a slightly better game, i.e., LESS WORSE!

Both should require a "larger" spread, and when possible, a "smaller" bladder.

The "cards touching" rule is interesting...if I understand it right, you have a "4" and a "2", and draw another "2" that TOUCHES your first 2, then you can split off the 2nd "2"...if the TC was +8 and the Dealer Upcard a "6"....HMMMM?!

The suited BJ "Bonus" gives me thoughts of a FULL TABLE TEAM...one for Betting, one for Play, one for Ins., and another for Spades, Diamonds, etc.

I have only seen Single21 at one Tunica site, i.e., Sheraton, though I recently saw a post on another site that it had been removed...if this was where you played, you probably broke their bank! However, I think I have read that one or two other Tunica properties may have the game available...for some reason, I want to say "Bally's" and maybe "Grand", or maybe I should just say "other PPE" sites.

So, in NOT answering your question, I close by suggesting that Single21 be approached with a SF21 strategy until more data becomes available...I just checked the "Wizard-of-odds" site...to date, Single21 is "UNLISTED".

phantom007.


Re: New Single 21 game basic strategy
Posted by Shadow on 04-Jul-2003 12:36:38 (#4428)

In the link I posted I noticed that one rule was left out.

Player blackjack always beats dealer blackjack.

I'm going to practice up on this game before I go back to Tunica. I played at Bally's but I think they had it at Grand too but not sure. I thought they were just regular single deck bj tables at first. It looks like they would give it a more distictive name.


Re: New Single 21 game basic strategy
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Jul-2003 16:51:06 (#4432)

This is super fun 21. There is an essay here about it:

http://www.cardcounter.com/SuperFun21.htm

Don't play it.

--Mayor


Re: New Single 21 game basic strategy
Posted by shadow on 04-Jul-2003 17:08:52 (#4433)

It is similar to super fun but with a few differences.

Super Fun: A player hand of 21 points, consisting of 5 cards or more, except after doubling, pays 2 to 1 instantly.

Single 21: Automatic winnner if players receive six cards without busting.

------------------------------

Super Fun: A player blackjack in diamonds pays 2 to 1, all other blackjacks pay even money.

Single 21: Suited blackjacks pay 3 to 2. Unsuited blackjacks pay even money.

-----------------------------

Super Fun: Split after hitting. Whenever two same-vlaue cards are touching, you can split the second one off and start a new hand. You can even split after doubling down. You cannot split to prevent busting.


Re: New Single 21 game basic strategy
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Jul-2003 18:39:33 (#4435)

I'll analyze the bj payoffs as an improvement from BJ pays 1-1.

Recall that 3-2 BJ gives 2.38% to the player (you get an extra 1/2 unit every 21 hands, approximately). Thus, even money on BJ gives 2.38% to the house right away.

Super Fun: A player blackjack in diamonds pays 2 to 1, all other blackjacks pay even money.

p = 2*(1/52)*(4/51) = .00314

EV = 1*.00314 = .00314.

Thus this pays back 0.31% out of the 2.38% they took away.

Single 21: Suited blackjacks pay 3 to 2. Unsuited blackjacks pay even money.

p = 2*(4/52)*(4/51) = .0121.

EV = (.5)*.0121 = .0061.

Thus this pays back 0.61% out of the 2.38% they took away. This is clearly a better rule for the player than the SF-21 rule, but the game is still unplayable.

You bastards!

--Mayor


Re: New Single 21 game basic strategy
Posted by phantom007 on 05-Jul-2003 19:20:58 (#4442)

But Mayor, please realize that:

(1) In Positive Counts, the BJ Suited P/O is worth approximately: 1/52 x 1/51 less TC, divided by RC, x 0.0152%, plus an adjusted Count of unplayed 8's, and again, divided by the square root of the TC less RC.

(2) In Neutral and/or Negative Counts, Suited BJ is still worth approx. 0.083% to the player, per negative -1 TC against a Neutral Deck...all of above presumes that we start off with a Neutral Deck.

(3) Plus, the "touching cards" rule in Single21 is worth an additional 0.235% advangage in SD, in + Counts, and as calculated in #1 above.

(4) And finally, please realize that #'s 1-3 above are PURE BULLSHxT! I do hope that you read #4, BEFORE you pulled out your calculator (or slide-rule)...grin!

But Mayor, your advice to "not play" SF21/Single 21????? Your own July Podium teaches us to seek out "non-BJ" games wherein one can get an advantage! Besides VP and "wide-spread" SF21, and of course poker, where do you suggest we find Advantage Play?

phantom007.


Re: New Single 21 game basic strategy
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Jul-2003 19:54:49 (#4444)

>But Mayor, your advice to "not play" SF21/Single 21????? Your own July Podium teaches us to seek out "non-BJ" games wherein one can get an advantage! Besides VP and "wide-spread" SF21, and of course poker, where do you suggest we find Advantage Play?

Maybe I missated my position on Single 21/SF21. The point is that no one should play this game who has not done ALL the research -- figured out the perfect strategy, index numbers, and spread needed to beat the game -- then scout out the best games and only play those heads up when they are deeply dealt. If you do all this, then yes, go ahead and play them. They are actually beatable -- though just barely.

As far as where else to find Advantage Play -- use your imagination, that was the exercise. E.g., what could you do if you knew the hole card at (name game)?

-Mayor


What's the player's EV in this game?
Posted by Joe Schmoe on 04-Jul-2003 15:37:11 (#4429)

2 decks, H17, NDAS, No surrender. Dealt 50% or 1 deck down into the shoe.
Player bets 1 unit when the running count is +1 or less.
Player bets 4 units when the running count is +2 or greater.
Player plays BS for 2 decks with no deviation based on the count.
Using Hi-Lo for counting.


Re: What's the player's EV in this game?
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Jul-2003 17:33:53 (#4434)

I'm not going to run this one, sorry. Maybe someone else will.

I hope there is something else that makes this worthwhile, but as purely a game you will be counting -- forget it.

--Mayor


Another possible answer
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Jul-2003 18:53:54 (#4436)

This might be an online casino game, and you want to program a bot to play against it for a year straight.

Been done.

I refer you to the green chip archives at bj21.com

--Mayor


Re: What's the player's EV in this game?
Posted by Casual Counter on 06-Jul-2003 02:58:47 (#4449)

I did a ROUGH sim on it just for kicks.

EV = .0757%

I doubt a more accurate sim would change the result much.


Lucky Lady article
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Jul-2003 19:03:31 (#4437)

I wrote an article on my recent exploits playing LL. It is "mostly" factual -- that's all I can say 8-)

http://bjinsider.com/newsletter_42_ladies.shtml

--Mayor


Re: Lucky Lady article
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Jul-2003 23:11:06 (#4438)

Mayor could you post a similar report as the one below for a six deck game with the tc indexes for HI-LOW. Sounds like you had geat time in the green felt jungle. Can I be part of your team some day?:)Thanks LTC

Lucky Ladies Report**
====================================================================================

Number of decks: 2
number of hands: 1000000000
Penetration: 66 cards
Lucky Lady earnings per 100 rounds (per hour): $26.9086
Wager is made 8.11159 times per 100 rounds (per hour)
Earnings per Lucky Lady $25 bet actually placed: $3.31731
Key True count (make bet at this count or higher): 10
Standard deviation per hand is: $52.2784
Desirability index for this system: 63.4546

TC %EV
<=0 -26.56
1 -21.93
2 -19.25
3 -17.35
4 -14.42
5 -10.99
6 -8.76
7 -6.36
8 -3.39
9 -1.14
10 2.05
11 4.67
12 7.06
13 10.88
14 13.22
15 16.47
16 21.33
17 24.27
18 27.16
19 30.72
>=20 35.18

====================================================================================

** This from an article by Eliot Jacobson aka Da Mayor in the july issue of the LV Insider E magazine. Henry Tamburine Editor


Here it is ... Hi Lo
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Jul-2003 00:24:22 (#4447)


Just so you know, this is the only sim I am going to run of another system. All standard counting systems are weak for the LL bet, and just not worthwhile to sim. See the article http://www.cardcounter.com/Lucky_Ladies.htm for more about these systems.

I will sim using Hi-Lo for the 2 deck and 6 deck games, with decent penetration, playing through all counts. I should also sim Hi-Lo for wonging the 6 deck games and for the 6 deck payouts for the 2 deck games (e.g. at the Station properties), but it is more than I want to do, given the low returns offered.

Here ya go.

 


*******************
Lucky Ladies Report
*******************
Number of decks: 2
number of hands: 100000000
Penetration: 70 cards.
Payoff schedule:
Any 20: 4-to-1
Suited 20: 10-to-1
Matched 20: 25-to-1
QH pair: 200-to-1
QH pair + BJ: 1000-to-1
Count system:
A: -1
2: 1
3: 1
4: 1
5: 1
6: 1
7: 0
8: 0
9: 0
T: -1
QofH: -1


Lucky Lady earnings per 100 rounds (per hour): $9.81635
Wager is made 3.52951 times per 100 rounds (per hour)
Earnings per Lucky Lady $25 bet actually placed: $2.78122
Leave the table when true count falls below -99.
Key True count (make bet at this count or higher): 7
Standard deviation per hand is: $29.7033
Desirability index for this system: 93.6334


TC %EV FREQ
<=0 -31.79 65372260
1 -20.1 11305311
2 -16.37 7499561
3 -12.53 4804497
4 -8.82 3446225
5 -5.15 2585009
6 -0.82 1457617
7 2.75 1287878
8 7.89 744171
9 10.45 469962
10 17.63 426616
11 21.67 265455
12 23.37 223274
13 29.00 146977
14 33.42 79577
15 38.46 42556


*******************
Lucky Ladies Report
*******************
Number of decks: 6
number of hands: 100000000
Penetration: 260 cards.
Payoff schedule:
Any 20: 4-to-1
Suited 20: 9-to-1
Matched 20: 20-to-1
QH pair: 150-to-1
QH pair + BJ: 1000-to-1
Count system:
A: -1
2: 1
3: 1
4: 1
5: 1
6: 1
7: 0
8: 0
9: 0
T: -1
QofH: -1


Lucky Lady earnings per 100 rounds (per hour): $5.49835
Wager is made 2.62204 times per 100 rounds (per hour)
Earnings per Lucky Lady $25 bet actually placed: $2.09697
Leave the table when true count falls below -99.
Key True count (make bet at this count or higher): 6
Standard deviation per hand is: $28.3887
Desirability index for this system: 73.8666


TC %EV FREQ
<=0 -28.12 71027494
1 -18.39 11550896
2 -14.48 6724839
3 -10.89 4036639
4 -6.73 2499272
5 -2.82 1538817
6 1.17 1012007
7 5.16 603159
8 10.19 391110
9 15.02 238749
10 18.15 147129
11 23.93 88518
12 28.72 51329
13 31.24 50542
14 38.08 16661
15 44.97 10197




Galaxy Gaming odds are correct!
Posted by Joe Schmoe on 05-Jul-2003 14:07:15 (#4439)

When getting a QH pair, you have to make sure the dealer doesn't get a blackjack. Since you have 2QH there are 30 tens and 8 aces left in the two decks. So the probability of a dealer blackjack is (240/102C2) and the probability of the dealer not getting a blackjack is (4911/102C2) or (4911/5151). There is only one combination for the QH pair, so the probability is (1/104C2) or (1/5356).
So the overall probability is (1/5356)*(4911/5151) = 0.000178
The odds are 1 in 5617.7
Galaxy Gaming is correct!


Re: Galaxy Gaming odds are correct!
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Jul-2003 19:02:43 (#4441)

OK, too bad for me 8-)

But, my calc is correct too, it just says something else -- namely the unrestricted odds of getting the QH pair.

--Mayor


Re: Lucky Lady article
Posted by Black Jack Hack on 27-Jul-2003 02:16:33 (#4638)

Great article! Last year, I did some statistical analysis of the Lucky Ladies bet, and I, too, found it had a positive EV at a certain threshold TC in the count that I use.

Three thoughts on your article:

(1) I don't think the difference between FPLL and the 6/8 deck payoffs is that significant. By my calculation, 85.5% of your positive EV will come from the 4:1 and 9:1 payoffs, which are the same for 4,6 and 8 decks. The higher payoffs for the rarer hands won't increase your EV that much.

(2) For a green chip player like myself, the $26/hr win rate does not make it very attractive by itself. It is, however, an attractive side play. It could justify a lower spread, and, thus, enhance longevity and reduce bankroll volatility. In other words, it would make spreading 1:4 worthwhile at DD -- instead of spreading up to 8 or 10 units, just spread 1:4 and add the LL bet at very high counts. (Without heat, of course, you would want to spread 1:12 AND make the LL bet! I am guessing that your "candy store" wouldn't tolerate that for long, though.)

(3) Although you seem to have most interest in the DD application, I believe this sidebet could particularly effective for wonging into shoe games. At a sufficiently high TC, you might get a chance to place as many a 4-5 consecutive bets with a +20% EV! In a DD game, you might see that opportunity occur only once an hour.


Barry White RIP
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Jul-2003 15:25:38 (#4440)

Today July 5, 2003

R&B Legend Barry White Dies at 58
Seductive R&B Singer Barry White, Who Had Been Undergoing Dialysis Since a Stroke, Dies at 58

Thanks for the Romance Barry.....LTC


Seeking Invitations!
Posted by phantom007 on 05-Jul-2003 19:52:49 (#4443)

A month or two back, I rec'd a personal e-mail from ***re: LV in June! Had I have been able to attend, I could have met/played with him (I do not reallly mean "played with him"), but rather play BJ with him. Likewise, I could have met and "played with" the ***, again BJ only. Surprisingly, I had planned to be in LV during THAT time-frame...I cancelled due to using too many days of "paid vacation", which I needed to "save up" for future trip(s).

Anyhow, Mr. *** and/or ***, I sincerely appreciate said invitation! Living in Missouri, "social" and/or "professional" intercourse regarding BJ is hard to come by (no pun intended)!

But to the POINT of THIS POST:

(1) I have been a member of bj.21 for over a year...what do I have to do and/or who do I have to meet, so as to get invited to their regional parties?

(2) I have been a subscriber of rge.21 for over a year...now same has a "VIP Room" that requires one to be recommended and/or "vouched for". What do I have to do to accomplish same?

AND, (3) In about February of THIS year, I posted stuff regarding my PROPOSED LV TRIP...several Individuals posted responses, to which I gave in return, very personal data, and THEY DID NOT LOOK ME UP......or did they?

phantom007.


Re: Seeking Invitations!
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Jul-2003 22:46:29 (#4445)

"""(1) I have been a member of bj.21 for over a year...what do I have to do and/or who do I have to meet, so as to get invited to their regional parties?"""

Phantom First of all I understand your frustration. I have been a member of Green chip for two years and I have been a serious AP for the last three. I paid my dues and weaved my way through the BJ community for at least a year. I posted. I communicated. I slowly but surely made friends with certain Pros who after some time of presenting myself and taking the chance of revealing who I was accepted me. It was not easy. The A.P. community inner circle is like the french underground. They are serious and aggressively protective of thier group. Even today I am trusted by a few well respected members in the A.P. community and they cannot convince other pros to meet me. It is that closed. The get togethers that you speak of are very difficult to get into. I had to have three very well recognized and highly respected P-R-O-F-F-E-S-S-I-O-N-A-L-'S vouch for me. Just getting to meet them and become friends was hard enough. If your serious about the game then you will have patience. The one thing I found that is worth wile is to play the game seriously, stay involved in the sites, and not worry about being invited. Your worth as a player will show and in time you will be accepted.

"""(2) I have been a subscriber of rge.21 for over a year...now same has a "VIP Room" that requires one to be recommended and/or "vouched for". What do I have to do to accomplish same?"""

See above....

"""AND, (3) In about February of THIS year, I posted stuff regarding my PROPOSED LV TRIP...several Individuals posted responses, to which I gave in return, very personal data, and THEY DID NOT LOOK ME UP......or did they?"""
"""phantom007."""

You cannot post so freely. That is what e-mail is for. Getting invited is a gift in this community. Careful the casino's do read this site.


Re: Seeking Invitations!
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Jul-2003 23:48:54 (#4446)

It takes more than trust to get through the door.

I wanted to go to the GC party last October. I asked. Don Schlesinger was the Guest of HOnor. Adhoc was the organizer. I wrote to Adhoc and asked if there was any problem with my attending, he said that given my feelings towards Don Schlesinger, I wouldn't be going. Later I asked Stanford Wong if the fact that two people don't like each other is grounds to preclude one of them from the GC party. He said emphatically not, the only ground was trust.

I am permanently banned from posting on RGE (because I didn't want Don to correct my grammar and said so -- I also encouraged would-be software buyers to seek independent reviews -- that was all it took). A party with them? You gotta be crazy!

As for Arnold Snyder -- I have more respect for that man than for my dog, and for those who own dogs you know what I mean. I trust him to keep out intruders, fight the bad people, and protect my interests more than any single force in the community. But a party? Hardly. Either you're on a first name basis with someone who goes to the parties, or else forget it.

The politics of these little groups are fierce. A great first step is simply stopping by bj21.com next time you are in Vegas and meeting the staff. You might even meet the man himself. They are very nice folks, and run a class-act.

--Mayor


Re: Seeking Invitations!
Posted by Learning to count on 06-Jul-2003 00:28:27 (#4448)

That sucks!!!!!!!! Hey Mayor when I have a party your going to be the guest of honor...you just have to bring the beer! I agree with his honor BJ21 is a class act. I asked for a autographed copy of PROBJ wammo I got it signed by the Black Jack god himself Stanford Wong!!! They sent it to me express mail! I suscribed to cbjn just hours before the price hike and I was charged the new fee. When I contacted BJ21 to ask about the price difference Mr Wong did not even flinch. He gave the old price without asking. Every thing they do there is followed by ancient business philosophies like the customer is always right! My experience with Mr Snyder and his site has been just as good. AP.com is different and does have a nerve that they follow. I have had good experiences with them but then I am a neophyte in this game so I have had no issues with anyone. This site well this is my home! The only issue I have with this site is that we need to have more get togethers with the trusted inner circle which I am working hard to be part of! Hey say a prayer for Barry White. The world changed when Sinatra died and bottomed out now that the seductive songster has passed on. His songs can still make a women swoon! ASk my buddy Ploppy Jimmy he scored last trip to Vegas on three chicks and he owes it to a stiff diet of Barry White.


Re: Seeking Invitations!
Posted by FLA Player on 07-Jul-2003 09:46:38 (#4455)

Barry White, huh? I'll have to keep that in mind! And was it Barry White once the twins were back in the room or before?


Re: Seeking Invitations!
Posted by Learning to count on 07-Jul-2003 13:39:49 (#4458)

Definitly before and after. During, well Ole PJ refused to share so who knows what went on in the room. Only PJ knows for sure!


Bayview Strategies

1 question about Revere PC
Posted by George.M on 06-Jul-2003 10:22:51 (#4450)

How strong it's can be the Revere point count if you use
A's side count ?


You must read this!
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Jul-2003 12:12:47 (#4451)

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jul-06-Sun-2003/news/21616613.html


Great catch!! *NM*
Posted by MLB scout on 06-Jul-2003 13:14:11 (#4452)


Re: You must read this!
Posted by Learning to count on 06-Jul-2003 20:29:33 (#4453)

Two thoughts:
1. I hope those casinos/public offcials who act in illegal ways get thier just due.
Illegal acts include violation of a persons civil/human rights,illegal detainment, Battery, Improper/illegal use of the Nevada Trespass statute, theft, violation of financiel privacy, false allegations, false arrest, etc.etc.
2. I am anxious to see how the BJ game is changed after the legal heat comes down. Remember what happened in Atlantic City after the Uston legal battle.

What gets me is how paranoid the casinos are about there bottom line. SOmeone has to win sometime. Even the carnival games allow that vis a vis the recent mega bucks slot win or is that an illusion? Time will tell. Great read! How about you casino people out there who visit this site give us your view. LTC


El Cortez has CRAPPY cameras! *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 07-Jul-2003 00:31:57 (#4454)


My letter to the LVRJ in response...
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Jul-2003 15:37:05 (#4459)

[send your letter to: letters@reviewjournal.com]

July 7, 2003

Dear Editor,

In response to your story, "CIVIL LIBERTIES: Disadvantaged" which appeared in the July 6 issue, by Ron Smith. The author is to be congratulated for his excellent and thorough account of casino abuse of advantage players.

All casinos should be forced to post a clearly visible sign at their entrance. It should state the unspoken policies they enforce:

Dear prospective casino patron, we reserve the right to:
1) Prohibit all those from playing who have demonstrated they are able to win consistently.
2) Share your personal and private financial information and your digital image with other casinos and investigative agencies.
3) Detain you against your will, without reading you your rights, allowing you to make a phone call, or allowing you to have a lawyer present.
4) Confiscate your legitimate and legally obtained winnings.
5) Humiliate and intimidate you in a public place, when you have broken no laws.
6) Use physical force when necessary to carry out any of the above.
7) Ensure other casinos will do the same to you when you enter.

I am an advantage player, winning consistently at blackjack for years. I am also a respected scholar, a professor of Computer Science at a major university, a family man, and an honest man. I have been subjected to many of the abuses listed above, multiple times. I have repeatedly written to Gaming Control Board Chairman Dennis Neilander to complain about these abuses. Like Mr. Smith, I received no response.

It is time for the elected officials of the state of Nevada to take charge, and start doing something about this rampant abuse of our civil rights.

Sincerely,

Eliot Jacobson


Way to go, Al!
Posted by The Mayor on 08-Jul-2003 09:42:24 (#4467)

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jul-08-Tue-2003/opinion/21680628.html


Thanks, Mr. Mayor *NM*
Posted by Al Rogers on 08-Jul-2003 17:14:08 (#4470)


GREAT July podium!
Posted by Sonny on 07-Jul-2003 10:41:05 (#4456)

It was truly inspiring. It's true that once you get the hang of counting, you end up with a lot of extra time at the table. Why not use that time to get an edge?

Thanks for the great suggestions and the new homework assignment. You've really got my creative juices flowing now!

-Sonny-


Re: GREAT July podium!
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Jul-2003 19:02:35 (#4462)

Thanks for your nice words. Honestly, a 1% edge is just not enough.

Do I sound greedy? Hey, I'm just a human casino, and the casinos get to play against me!!!

-Mayor


Hand Win/Loss %
Posted by Sonny on 07-Jul-2003 10:49:30 (#4457)

I'm looking for the Win/Loss% for a players hand vs. dealer's upcard in a 2-deck game. I found the "Expectation of Standing - Expectation of Drawing" for single deck from Epstein's "Theory of Gambling...", but I was hoping to find the W/L% for various numbers of decks (including splitting and doubling). Does anyone know if this is in a book (Braun maybe?), or what software I could use to figure this out? I'm afraid Epstein used a few too many "funny symbols" for me to recreate his calculations.

Thanks in advance.

-Sonny-


Re: Hand Win/Loss % *LINK*
Posted by Casual Counter on 07-Jul-2003 18:56:07 (#4460)

Sonny,

Blackjack Audit from www.deepnettech.com does everything you're looking for. Every sim you run with it outputs the hand statistics for whatever table conditions, count and betting systems you program in.

You must already have their Blackjack Counter software to use it, however, or buy both, of course.

Along with simulation summary statistics it gives you the following stats on individual hands: frequency, W/L Rate, expectation, # of hands, % of index plays, % Won, %Lost, %Pushed.

It's also quite fast, even on my older machine (P3 933, 256Mb RAM).

HTH. Link below.


Re: Hand Win/Loss %
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Jul-2003 18:59:47 (#4461)

Check out www.bjstats.com (I am not sure if what you want is there)

Worlds Greatest Blackjack Book has a little bit.

--Mayor


Answer to my question *LINK*
Posted by Sonny on 07-Jul-2003 20:33:20 (#4463)

Thanks for the good answers everybody. Luckily I was able to find Cacarulo's charts of the EV for every hand in various conditions. They're exactly what I was looking for, and they're FREE!

Also, had I been near my computer at home, I could have used BeeJack to calculate each hand, but I knew that so many other people have done this before me that it must be out there somewhere!

-Sonny-


Is my sim working?
Posted by Joe Schmoe on 08-Jul-2003 17:48:26 (#4471)

Hello everyone,
I wrote a sim blackjack program and I'm just wondering if it's working correctly. The game is 2 decks, NDAS, DOA, no surrender, pen. of 50%. Player plays BS for 2 decks with no change in bet size or playing strategy. The player expectation I get from my program is -0.62% after about 80,000,000 hands. I also ran it for the game I posted earlier and also got an EV of about +0.07%. Does it seem like it's working?


Top 21 Most Prolific Posters
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Jul-2003 13:30:02 (#4498)

They are rounding the turn and the Mayor is neck and neck with ZenGee! The Mayor is about to win the Card Counter Derby by a nose! Rob McGarvey is sucking the hind tit as they approach the finish line!

Total Messages: 4,112 | Total Posters: 270

zengrifter 509 12.38% 1/17/03 11:07:44 p.m.
The Mayor 509 12.38% 7/9/03 11:17:23 a.m.
Rob McGarvey 467 11.36% 7/9/03 11:16:42 a.m.

Zero Posts at the CCC (in keeping with the tradition) ;>


Re: Top 21 Most Prolific Posters
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Jul-2003 14:38:19 (#4502)

With this post, I am now number #1 again. That said, maybe ZG will soon return 8-)


prolific posters *PIC*
Posted by BradRod on 09-Jul-2003 21:05:43 (#4530)

I'm surprised to see my name still anywhere on the list. I have been very busy playing. Over 700 hours so far this year.

I attempted to attach a graph of my log results to this posting. See if this works.


Your journal -- here it is
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Jul-2003 09:55:30 (#4537)



Re: Your journal -- here it is
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Jul-2003 09:58:19 (#4538)

So the scale across the bottom is hours?

Congrats on your recent wins. It looks like you went nowhere for a long time. Any ideas/comments?

--Mayor


Re: Your journal -- here it is
Posted by hinoon on 10-Jul-2003 11:34:24 (#4540)

I was just about to ask about the sharp change in results...My thinking was that perhaps there was a change in bankroll, or a new set of idices learned, or something added to the mix.

Great graph though!


Ideas and Comments *PIC*
Posted by BradRod on 10-Jul-2003 12:20:34 (#4542)

Thanks Mayor and yes,the scale across the bottom is in hours.

This graph is programmed to smooth out smaller peaks and drops by averaging across 10 hour periods. So, my actual performance is a little rockier than it looks but this is basically pretty accurate.

IDEAS AND COMMENTS

Going no where as I have been for most of the year is more of the learning process, as is losing generally. I think that you cannot know how to win without knowing what losing is.

I was encouraged by the fact of the relatively narrow range that I was losing within, frustrated by the apparent ceiling on my winnings.

I figured that I must have been playing at about half my ability but, not sure how to apply it.

The turnaround date was June 1. The upward spike represents approximately 85 hours of play and took me from my low of the year to the high. A nearly uninterrupted climb of about 1000 units. Most recent play July 8. What a RIDE !!

The game is mostly 6 deck but, I was doing as well with 8 (about 20% of the play). All games with relatively good to very good penetration. DOA, DAS, S17, NS(mostly).

The system I use is UBZ II. I would characterize myself as more of an intuitive player than a mathmetical one but, will try to share my improved strategy as well as I can

The changes that I made in playing that seem to have had the greatest impact on my expectation and coincide with the improved perfromance:

a. spreading to 2 or more hands where appropriate and circumstances allow.

b. I have always only wonged out in extreme bad counts with 2 to 3 shoes played and seldom wonged in. My new strategy involved starting each new shoe with double or triple the minimum bet. Maintain that level as long as the count is rising. . Increase the bet in small steps as the count rises particularly if the count goes high early in the shoe. (This is loosely based on the color KO system ). If the count goes into doldrums or drops I start pulling my bet back toward the table minimum, pull back to one hand. Eventually just quit the shoe if the count drops too low with no apparent room for recovery.

If the shoe goes very rich (pivot point and beyond) I spread my bet based on my opening bet (of 2-3 times min) so that I am soon spread 10 to 15 times the table min and no one suspects anything becasue i have been betting high all along.

c. Insurance is my best friend at high counts. Also have done well with standing on 15/ 16 v T.

d. An improved bankroll allows me to ride out bad flucuations and hang around until the next winning shoe. I always try to walk away a winner. Also it affords me the strngth to play more aggressively with higher bets at higher counts.


Re: Ideas and Comments
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Jul-2003 10:21:49 (#4576)

Hi BradRod, you said in private email that it was ok to post this to the board,

>
> Since initially sending you my graph for posting I have played 15.42 hours
> winning about 450 units in that time. I have been on a winning streak for
> 95 hours now. Winning over 22k in that period of play. This has occured in
> the last 40 days +/-.

And I know professionals that have lost over periods of 3 months at rates higher than you won. The swings of this game are incredible, and I hope you are enjoying this rush! I know one solo counter, who plays at a very high level (but not too often) that is in his third consecutive year as a net loser.

>I feel I have achieved a real mastery over this game. Not sure where to go from here.

Not until you have gone through a swing of the same size in the other direction will you be able to talk about mastery. The mastery of counting and table composure is one thing -- the mastery of yourself when money seems to be flying out of your hands for days on end, that's another thing. I once went 17 sessions without a win over $100. I went through 4 days where I lost almost 50% of my BR. Take it from me, until you have seen the ghosts of BJ hell, you have no idea. Or maybe you do. You went forever without winning. Is that when you were learning? Betting smaller? I don't entirely get your graph.

>Acouple of things I would like to explore
> are a trip to LV in th near future.. also am interested in playing some
> European or world games at some point. Would like to find out more about
> these.

How can I help you? I know a lot about Vegas, nothing about the "World" .

>Your comments in reaction would
> be appreciated either by return e-mail or if you feel they are of general
> interest as a posting.

Keep playing!

--Mayor


Re: Ideas and Comments
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Jul-2003 10:31:30 (#4578)

>IDEAS AND COMMENTS

>Going no where as I have been for most of the year is more of the learning process, as is losing generally. I think that you cannot know how to win without knowing what losing is.

None of your losses look particularly large.

>I was encouraged by the fact of the relatively narrow range that I was losing within, frustrated by the apparent ceiling on my winnings.

Lack of variance is a sign that you are not putting out the big bets when the count says to.

>The turnaround date was June 1. The upward spike represents approximately 85 hours of play and took me from my low of the year to the high. A nearly uninterrupted climb of about 1000 units. Most recent play July 8. What a RIDE !!

>The game is mostly 6 deck but, I was doing as well with 8 (about 20% of the play). All games with relatively good to very good penetration. DOA, DAS, S17, NS(mostly).

This is not a particularly good game, unless you are getting penetration in excess of 5:6 -- the lack of surrender is a huge defect in the game.

>The system I use is UBZ II.

OK, but not great for shoe games. Better for double deck.

>I would characterize myself as more of an intuitive player than a mathmetical one but.

This scares me. There is something wrong with this statement, and I hope you never vary your plays or bet sizes based on your intuition. If intuition had ANY value whatsoever, Las Vegas would not exist.

>, will try to share my improved strategy as well as I can

>a. spreading to 2 or more hands where appropriate and circumstances allow.

This is not intuitive, this is a strong play.

>b. I have always only wonged out in extreme bad counts with 2 to 3 shoes played and seldom wonged in. My new strategy involved starting each new shoe with double or triple the minimum bet. Maintain that level as long as the count is rising. . Increase the bet in small steps as the count rises particularly if the count goes high early in the shoe. (This is loosely based on the color KO system ). If the count goes into doldrums or drops I start pulling my bet back toward the table minimum, pull back to one hand.

This sounds solid, again non-intuitive, and a way of getting a larger spread without being obvious.

> Eventually just quit the shoe if the count drops too low with no apparent room for recovery.

Of course! Bathroom breaks and cell phones are great for this move.

>If the shoe goes very rich (pivot point and beyond) I spread my bet based on
my opening bet (of 2-3 times min) so that I am soon spread 10 to 15 times the table min and no one suspects anything becasue i have been betting high all along.

Yep. Good strategy.

>c. Insurance is my best friend at high counts. Also have done well with standing on 15/ 16 v T.

It is all our friend at high counts -- but UBZ has a very poor insurance correlation. Again, the counting system you are using is far from optimal for the shoe game, where betting efficiency is the key.

>d. An improved bankroll allows me to ride out bad flucuations and hang around until the next winning shoe.

You haven't had to wait long then. The wait can go on for days.

>I always try to walk away a winner.

This is a really really bad idea. Go away a loser just as often as you can. Let them know you suck. This will prolong your life at the tables. Going away a winner has nothing to do with playing a winning game.

>Also it affords me the strngth to play more aggressively with higher bets at higher counts.

You should be betting based on count, not on your desire to walk away a winner.

My sense is that you have been lucky, and I am very happy for your rush. You also seem to have a couple of mythological deamons: intuition, walking away a winner (and maybe others?). You are using a relatively weak system for the decent game you are playing (if the pen is good enough).

Congrats on your win, I hope it continues that way for you for a long time!

--Mayor


Losing is GREAT cover
Posted by suicyco maniac on 14-Jul-2003 13:46:04 (#4583)

I all to often see or hear players who refuse to leave when they are down. A good friend of mine was way down and fought all the way back and ended up taking most of the black out of the rack...this got him barred I am sure there were other factors but this was part of it. I also see other players steaming mad when they are down worried about day to day wins or losses. I have learned that this is a big part of the game I posted on AP that it takes a different breed of man to get kicked in the nuts day in and day out and go back for more but this is what it takes. I have developed a huge pain tollerence and like the Mayor I too watched 72% of my bank dissapear in less then a week I climbed back out and am now less then 2 max bets away from an all time high of course this is no gauarantee I will hit the all time high again and in fact like Orange County KO said in BJF you should think in EV not all time high. Every time you place a positve bet you are at a new all time EV high. I feel that my huge losses have helped my image a lot. I have no problem leaving when I am way down and if I happen to get back to almost even I will leave before I get ahead telling everyone how happy I am to only be down a bit instead of where I was. Also I try to keep my big losses bigger then my biggest wins but this is not always possible. So keep chunking those bets out and remember like the ploppies always seem to say.......its only chips :) SM


Re: Top 21 Most Prolific Posters
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Jul-2003 11:04:51 (#4539)

Yes! Hope he is healthy and happy. He will be a lot of fun when he gets out of jail. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.......smile Any word? Heard he was going to do the drug therapy scam to shorten his sentence as per a recent LVPro article. He'll fly past us like he has wings on his heels.


Re: Top 21 Most Prolific Posters
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Jul-2003 23:17:47 (#4634)

If there is a prize involved, I could make this a very long thread... LOL.


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