At one time, the website CardCounter.com held an active message forum with many contributors. When the previous site owner planned to shut down the site, he allowed us to archive the messages here at BlackjackInfo. They are formatted as they originally appeared, but no further comments on threads are permitted. If you want to discuss any of these topics, please do so at the BlackjackInfo Forums.
Casey Blackjack Computer
Posted by Robert Yong on 07-Aug-2003 16:45:06 (#4671)
Anyone got any views on the Casey Blackjack Computer?
Just buy a gun
Posted by CougFan on 08-Aug-2003 13:53:28 (#4674)
Its easier to just commit armed robbery. Both are illegal, but the armed robbery is alot easier.
Re: Armed robbery analogy
Posted by Sonny on 08-Aug-2003 22:19:06 (#4679)
> Its easier to just commit armed robbery. Both are illegal, but the armed
> robbery is alot easier.
Playing blackjack with a Casey computer is like trying to rob a bank with a bicycle.
Honestly, I would prefer a gun to a Casey computer. After all, a gun can be operated with one finger! With the Casey, you'll be tapping your feet more than a diarrheic Ben Vereen on speed! Besides, do you have any idea how hard it is to run away with a pack of batteries bandaged to your thigh?
-Sonny-
Re: Casey Blackjack Computer
Posted by Sonny on 08-Aug-2003 16:55:00 (#4676)
That depends on what you mean by "opinions". In my opinion, Casey is a groundbreaking machine from an engineering and mathematical standpoint. From an Advantage Player standpoint, it is a useless device which will only earn you some jail time.
See the post from 5/23/03 titled "Casey. Does it work? Am I being scammed?" for an in-depth discussion of this topic.
-Sonny-
Re: Casey Blackjack Computer
Posted by Robert Yong on 08-Aug-2003 21:00:30 (#4678)
Thanks Sonny, I read the 5/23/03 discussion and feel a bit stupid asking the same question as "minnie the moocher". I was just curious on whether anybody had actually used this thing. Apologies for the dumb question. Rob
Re: Not dumb at all
Posted by Sonny on 09-Aug-2003 14:19:17 (#4680)
>Thanks Sonny, I read the 5/23/03 discussion and feel a bit stupid asking the
>same question as "minnie the moocher". I was just curious on whether anybody
>had actually used this thing. Apologies for the dumb question. Rob
Does anyone have software for Casey?
Posted by james Liu on 28-Jun-2004 04:18:50 (#9016)
I was wondering if anyone had software for this blackjack computer for the pc. It would be interesting to see how the computer works without actually doing it in a casino and getting arrested. Thanks for any info. Email me if you see this...
Casey software
Posted by Pro21 on 28-Jun-2004 16:18:41 (#9027)
Casey just uses Thorp's ultimate count. You can see how well that count works by running simulations. David (the original computer) was designed by Keith Taft. Casey was a ripoff version stolen from Taft by a guy named Steve Goldberg. There is still a guy out selling Caseys. These computers were great for playing single deck, but worthless for other games. If you find a single deck game in a country where copmputers are legal then have at it.
As for robbing a bank... there was just a case of a dealer up in Lake Tahoe who stole $675,000 over a period of years. Yes, she was caught. And horror of horrors... she had to return the money!!! Hmm, not quite as stiff a sentance as bank robbery.
I though it was stolen by "Rats Cohen". An alias perhaps? *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 01-Jul-2004 19:14:38 (#9054)
Are you sure it's just a simple count?
Posted by james Liu on 02-Jul-2004 23:56:17 (#9085)
I know card counting isn't easy and all. But are you sure that casey's computer is just based on a count? It can't be because it can do so many crazy things. Like Ken Uston described his computer George...George would tell people to do some things that regular people would never dream of such as hitting on hard 17, splitting a pair of 6 against an Ace, doubling on hard 12. Does thorp's ultimate count do that? I doubt it. That would be a pretty powerful count. i'm just curious of these computer's algorithms. It would be interesting just to see how this software can work on a pc or mac and play out the hand yourself.
It is not a simple count
Posted by NealS on 29-Sep-2004 21:47:11 (#10319)
I used David, a version of this computer, in 1980-1981. I was on a team that was managed by Steven Goldberg and financed by Tommy Hyland and his group. Tommy brought me in to the group. We were friends from college, I knew how to play blackjack and count, I am a computer programmer, and he trusted me. I met Steven in Las Angeles to see David first. It seemed to work as advertised.
After actaully joining the group, I had the opportunity to work with a support person that downloaded the program so that he and I could actually look at it. It is in machine language and so not many people would have any idea what to do with it, and it would not work on a regular PC. However, the program actually has registers that keep track of how many of each value card are left in the deck. When you take out all the cards that you have seen so far from the shoe, then enter your cards and the dealer up card and tell the computer to "play", it runs through every possible combination of cards left in the deck and determines the best play based on the rules set that has been selected. So there are clearly times that it would do things that no count system would tell you to do.
At the time that I used the computer, it was legal in Nevada. None of the people in my team was ever arrested, and only one person was ever questioned. However, some of us took computers to Reno and played as a second small team. A woman that was an operator was back-roomed but they never actually searched her, so they did not find the computer.
I think the question
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Sep-2004 11:46:02 (#10321)
Most people know that the early computers were computing the optimal play based on the exact remaining deck composition. What most of us (including me) don't know, is just how much better that is, in practical terms, than using a great counting system (like HI-OPT II, with side counts). You still have the problem of spreading your bets and finding great penetration.
Did you run any long term simulations on the algorithms (or do you know of any) that would give some idea how it compares to modern counting systems? Such comparisions appear in Schlesinger's BJA, it would be lovely to throw in your computer's algorithm into the mix, just so we know.
Thanks
--Mayor
casey computer
Posted by xx on 23-May-2005 18:53:41 (#13088)
I bought the casey computer a months ago and it was working well. However, the guy that I bought the computer from has passed away and I need to replace the input swtiches, can anyone tell me where I can contact the person who actually makes the computer ?
Thanks, please email me at puccinia@yahoo.com
Use Vaseline
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-May-2005 03:15:58 (#13096)
If you use the Casey computer in a US casino, you can use Vaseline to lubricate the switches. And always carry a large jar of Vaseline with you. You may need it. Do you know why?
HAHAHAHA GOOD ONE AUTO APE! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 24-May-2005 21:22:07 (#13126)
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#4677)
Re: Indices and decks
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Aug-2003 09:48:16 (#4681)
7,7 vs 7 in single deck stand? Do you not mean 7,7 vs 10 up??
IF you only want to learn one set of indices, go with the 6 deck ones as they are normally safely on the high side.
i.e. 1D +1.4 insure vs 6D +3 to insure. You can use +2 here since you know this now, and it is rather easy to adjust some of the more important indices and use the 6D ones.
Closest Casinos to Williamsport, PA
Posted by Coug It on 11-Aug-2003 23:04:33 (#4684)
May be going there for the Little League World Series. Any quality games nearby?
Re: Closest Casinos to Williamsport, PA
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 12-Aug-2003 08:28:04 (#4685)
Well... it depends what you mean by "nearby". There are no casinos at all in PA. But you are 200 to 250 miles from Atlantic City, The Niagra region, Turning Stone and Foxwoods.
Of these, Foxwoods is almost certainly the best.
_Felix
Thanks FRdG (nt) *NM*
Posted by Coug It on 12-Aug-2003 13:08:44 (#4686)
Knockout
Posted by CR on 12-Aug-2003 19:56:58 (#4687)
Opinions on knockout? -- unbalanced count system. Seems to be ok for the more casual player. Thanks.
Re: Knockout
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Aug-2003 01:33:07 (#4688)
A great beginner system, powerful enough for real results, and easy to master. I highly recommend it as a first system for the casual/recreational player.
--Mayor
How do I get petter pen?
Posted by Sonny on 14-Aug-2003 15:48:11 (#4689)
I'm always on the lookout for good penetration, but it's been slim-pickings lately. I'm sure that a well placed tip will encourage a stingy dealer, but my experience has not been good. It seems like the dealer either thanks me and continues to deal as normal, or he knows that I'm up to something and shuffles. I hardly ever get an extra round despite my tips, cheerful behavior, and sometimes "subtle" remarks ("I've got a GOOOOOD feeling about this next hand. Maybe we BOTH could make some money!").
Are there any other techniques, or better tipping strategies, that you folks have found to be effective?
-Sonny-
P.S.- Maybe next time a dealer ignores my tips I'll just say "Look, I'm TRYING to count cards here! Can you AT LEAST give me rule-of-seven penetration?"
Re: How do I get petter pen?
Posted by learning to count on 16-Aug-2003 09:28:59 (#4690)
1. You have to walk a lot. If you see poor pen at most tables it means the casino standard is to have bad pen.
2. Go to areas that have casino competition. Casinos will improve conditions at times to attract players.
3. Learn how to talk and befriend the dealer to get good pen. Avoid tipping to get the cut card moved up. A tip/bribe should be avoided. If the dealer starts dealing you a game that is excellent then think about a tip at the end of your session or when he is being traded out for the relief dealer.
4. Check out the usual info services like CBJN, Track Jack, BJForum On Line.
5. Dont play unless you are satisfied with the playing conditions.
6. Its better to save up all your bottle returns and buy a airplane ticket for fertile playing fields.
Try Progressive BJ
Posted by phantom007 on 16-Aug-2003 21:05:53 (#4692)
No, I do not mean the usual way, but rather "PROGRESSIVE TIPPING".
While useless in 6D, I have had decent success with SOME dealers in both Toonika and Lost Wages, in both SD and DD games, using the following:
"After 2(or 3) consecutive WINS, I will place a $X bet for you as well, provided you deal another round from THIS deck."
Obviously, I neither tell them this, nor hand the dealer a preprinted card, I just do it by ACTION...if I have won 2-in-a-row, I place a "Dealer Bet" as well. If he/she shuffles the cards, I shuffle the chips, and the Dealer Bet does not reappear post-shuffle.
DISADVANTAGE: Obviously you are "tipping" into Negative Decks almost as often as Positive ones. Appropriate play changes can minimize the damage.
ADVANTAGE: Good Dealers will catch-on to the system quickly..."Do you want one more round from this deck?" is a question I always love to hear. Likewise, my failure to win a few in a row will negate tipping, and thus, cause a premature shuffle....Yeah, yeah, I know one often loses lots of consecutive bets in Positive counts (GOD, DO I KNOW!). When that happens, then just go ANTI-MARTINGALE...Raise your bet, AND MAKE THE TIP APPEAR ANYHOW!
SUCCESS RATE: About 2%, IMHO, NOT to EV, but about 2% of the time you are in situations that it will work.
Hope this was helpful.
phantom007.
That's too much tipping
Posted by The Mayor on 17-Aug-2003 14:39:41 (#4694)
Remember, tip only if the long term EV of the tip justifies it. Tipping a single time you play at a joint is usually not to be advised. If you tip today so as to guarantee a decent game tomorrow (and other days) for yourself, then it is much closer to a worthwhile sacrafice of EV.
Good advice.
Posted by Sonny on 17-Aug-2003 00:52:02 (#4693)
> 1. You have to walk a lot. If you see poor pen at most tables it means the
> casino standard is to have bad pen.
Too true. I guess I'm always hoping that there will be one special dealer who will deal deeply, but I'm sure they mostly follow the house rules. Time so search for greener pastures!
> 2. Go to areas that have casino competition. Casinos will improve conditions
> at times to attract players.
Yeah, I only get to Vegas 2-3 times a year so I'm always trying to maximize my time at the tables. I just have to accept the fact that most of the time is spent LOOKING for good games.
> 3. Learn how to talk and befriend the dealer to get good pen. Avoid tipping
> to get the cut card moved up. A tip/bribe should be avoided. If the dealer
> starts dealing you a game that is excellent then think about a tip at the end
> of your session or when he is being traded out for the relief dealer.
Very good point! Instead of tipping to try and encourage better penetration, I should be tipping to REWARD it.
> 4. Check out the usual info services like CBJN, Track Jack, BJForum On Line.
I have a subscription to Trackjack, but since penetration levels change so frequently it is really only accurate in finding games with good rules.
> 5. Dont play unless you are satisfied with the playing conditions.
Ah yes, probably the most important factor. I try to, but I'm always trying to find a way to magically turn poor games into good games. You know, the whole "spinning straw into gold" thing. I should spend less time dreaming and more time hitting the pavement.
Thanks for the good advice.
-Sonny-
Books by Richard Harvey?
Posted by Steve on 16-Aug-2003 18:30:31 (#4691)
Are books by Richard Harvey(Cutting edge blackjack and Blackjack the smartway)
legitimate sources of information?
Thanks in advance.
NO!
Posted by phantom007 on 17-Aug-2003 20:26:55 (#4695)
As an Emergency Room Physician, I purchase ALL of the prominent texts on the subject...my current library has about 20 texts, of which 3 have been read, 15 "filed" in the library, and 2 still in their wrappers.
As a "semi-PRO" BJ player, i.e., "semi'PROFICIENT", I purchase MOST ALL of the recent publications on the subject...my current library has about 30 texts, of which 29 have been read, and with several, cover-to-cover, AND SEVERAL TIMES AT THAT! I currently only lack Celleni's recent publication...until otherwise educated as to the value of same, JUST NOT GOING TO PAY $99.95 for this advice!
ANYHOW, Mr. Harvey's "Cutting Edge BJ", which I have personally read up to page 68 (of 300), starts out making sense! Further, his recommendations FIT ENTIRELY IN LINE WITH MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE!
For example, the PURIST'S try to play heads-up with the Dealer whenever possible, so as to maximize the # of hands played in POS. Counts. Makes good sense, except that in 6D, one must either:
---Wong alot (not good for long-term), or
---Go Pee alot (hard to cover unless one is drinking heavily,
again, not good for long-term).
Mr. Harvey would suggest, BASED ON PRELIMINARY COMPUTER STUDIES, that one is better off playing at FULL tables...seeing more cards before making your decision. I agree, WHEN YOU CAN SEE THE CARDS...sometimes you can, and sometimes you cannot!
BUT, WHY I HAVE READ NO FURTHER, is that Mr. Harvey kept suggesting in HIS FIRST 68 PAGES..."BASED ON PRELIMINARY COMPUTER STUDIES!"
IMHO, to print a book whose basis is on "Computer Studies", should be DEFINATIVE, and NOT PRELIMINARY!
Hope this was helpful! If you or anyone reads the book(s) to the end, and IF I AM WRONG, please let me know!
Thanks,
Phantom007.
They're trash
Posted by LVBear584 on 18-Aug-2003 12:39:48 (#4698)
Harvey's books are a worthless waste of paper. His books are as useless as John Patrick's books.
Throw the books into the trash.
Re: They're trash
Posted by Learning to count on 18-Aug-2003 13:39:26 (#4699)
When the Bear Growls ya better listen or you will get malled. It ain't pretty either.
I guess
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Aug-2003 17:33:43 (#4702)
From your post, I am inferring that you don't like Harvey's books very much, at least that seems to be what you are saying 8-) If you could just clarify your position a bit. Do you think Harvey's books are more or less useless than toilet paper?
--Mayor
about blackjack tournments
Posted by Strider on 17-Aug-2003 22:08:13 (#4696)
What do you guys think of blackjack tournments? I'm an amateur card counter who is proficient with the high-low count. Do you think blacjack tournments are worth checking out? Any advice about how tournments differ would be nice as well. Thanks.
Re: about blackjack tournments
Posted by FLA Player on 18-Aug-2003 09:34:23 (#4697)
Blackjack tournaments have nothing to do with counting, they are solely based on betting and finishing with more chips then the other players at your table- read "Casino tournament strategy" by Wong, his strategy is followed by most seasoned players- proportional betting, betting with the flow, 1/3 of your bankroll betting, 1/7 of your BR, etc.
I played in the Hilton Million dollar tourny. qualifier, fun but a lot of luck involved.
FLA Player
Re: about blackjack tournments
Posted by NorCalBJ on 19-Aug-2003 12:51:01 (#4704)
I just finished in second place at a BJ tourney in Lake Tahoe.
Counting did help me a little bit. I was betting 50-75 a hand and then bet 200 on a very favorable count. I got BJ. In this tourney you got paid 2-1 on BJ.
The other guy is right though. There is a considerable amount of luck. But I found it to be very fun. I was actually the chip leader going in to the last hand but lost because the person in 2nd got to place their bet after me. I lost by one chip. But I won 100 dollars, got free drinks, a fun pack and lots of fun.
Anyone Depth-Charge?
Posted by Sonny on 19-Aug-2003 10:50:48 (#4703)
I was re-reading Blackbelt in BJ lastnight. I was wonderring if anyone had any experience with Arnie's mothod of Depth-Charging with an "outfielder" (a player who counts all of the other player's cards and signals their count to a third-base player). Although this wouldn't change your betting strategy, your playing strategy would be altered after knowing all of the cards on the table.
He estimates advantages of between 1.4%-1.9% in a LV Strip SD game with 2 rounds dealt to a full table, but of course he doesn't say that you will find them enywhere on the LV Strip.
Anyone ever tried anything like this? Any comments?
-Sonny-
Re: Anyone Depth-Charge?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Aug-2003 14:46:11 (#4705)
I actually use this principle in sports betting. In SOME finite series where the two teams are equally matched I will depth charge into the underdog until she bites. Made a lot of money doing that last year, and a lot of enemies by being so bold about my confidence in my bets.
Not the same
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Aug-2003 20:43:07 (#4710)
You are just playing a progression system, Rob, and not a smart one at that. I believe your scheme for betting goes something like "The underdog will eventually win, so I'll just bet more each time until that happens, then make my my money back and then some." I hope you realize the flaw in this. Unless you are playing a system based around +EV bets, independent of other bets, you are playing a losing system.
As for depth-charging, I've never done it, but it seems much stronger than I would have thought intuitively.
-Mayor
Re: Not the same
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Aug-2003 10:58:11 (#4712)
The egde is in the handicapping. Two teams go head to head in the play-offs. If you watched Detroit get taken out by the 8th seed you would understand the intensity. You put two teams together that are an even match and give 20-50 cents on the dollar for one of them that bet has an advantage. It is like doubling up after a loss when the count is giving you a 10-20% edge. Oh, that never happens in blackjack does it? smile With an edge like that and proper use of bankroll you have to be able to see how depth charging into a finite series is using Arnie's principle to its maximum benefit. Does it always work in BJ? Doubt it. Does it always work in sports? Doubt it, but I do get to pick chose and refuse by doing my own match ups and increasing the odds of winning more, more often than not, against depth charging a single deck game. You are depth charging into a possible 1% edge.
I Love Playing at a Table Where No One is Tipping.
Posted by SammyBoy on 19-Aug-2003 16:45:04 (#4706)
And I am so sick of these tip hustling dealers. While on vacation I watched a guy betting from $50 to $200 a hand and tipping practically every hand. He even tipped the dealer $100 on a single hand when he put a green chip out for the dealer and another for the double down which he won. At first he was winning 2k to 3k and had probably tipped at least $500. An hour later he is cashing in a crisp new C note fresh from the ATM. This guy was now a red chipper. I did not feel one bit sorry for him. It's guys like him, IMO, that cause these greedy dealers. If tips were fewer and far between, those greedy bastards would appreciate that dollar tip much more.
Re: I Love Playing at a Table Where No One is Tipping.
Posted by Learning to count on 19-Aug-2003 19:53:53 (#4708)
I can out do that. How a bout watching an idiot lose ten grand and still tip the dealer a black chip. Then listening to the dealer mutter under his breath how some people are cheap! What an arse hole!
Tipping
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Aug-2003 10:44:24 (#4711)
I understand why they tell you not to tip unless it is giving you better conditions, ie dealer going deeper into the deck for you. It can eat your advantage away because our advantage is so frigin small to start with.
On the internet, there is no tipping, and the edge is much bigger.
Insurance/Scheme Question
Posted by SammyBoy on 19-Aug-2003 16:58:38 (#4707)
Lets say I have an acquaintance that bets big, lets say average bet is $500 and he never takes insurance. Lets say I flat bet $5 every hand but insure his hand for the average $250 when the count calls for it (using 10's count). would I be playing a + EV game? What should I expect to average per hour over 1,000 hours? Lets say it is a 6 deck game with 1.5 decks cut off and lets say -.4 expectation to the BS player. Thanks.
Re: Insurance/Scheme Question
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Aug-2003 20:35:05 (#4709)
>Lets say I have an acquaintance that bets big, lets say average bet is $500 and he never takes insurance. Lets say I flat bet $5 every hand but insure his hand for the average $250 when the count calls for it (using 10's count). would I be playing a + EV game?
Good question. The real question is if you have the bankroll for a $250 max bet at the borderline count.
For example, using the Tens Count, when the count is +4 (single deck), the game is even. Don't take the bet. When it is +5 then (e.g.) there are 16 tens in the deck and 31 non-tens. Thus you are getting 2-1 for a bet that is 31-16. Out of every 47 bets, you will lose 31 of them (-31x1 unit) and win 16 (win 16x2 units = 32) for a win of 1 unit. Thus for every 47 times you make this bet, you win 48 units, for a edge of 2.18% over the house. This roughly corresponds to the edge for a max bet. So if your NORMAL max bet is $250, then sure, take insurance for $250. On the other hand, when the Tens Count is +6, you have (e.g.) are getting 2-1 for a bet that is 30-16, for an edge of about 4.34% over the house. That is equivalent to a Hi-Lo true count edge when the TC is about 10 or so. Almost anyone with a 10K bankroll or hgher could afford the $250 in the longrun with this kind of edge.
>What should I expect to average per hour over 1,000 hours?
Wong gives (see page 54) a win rate of about $15 per hour if you play a 10's count in addition to everything else (I think I am reading this box correctly). That is with a $100 max bet. With a $250 max bet, I suppose you are looking at a win rate of about $35-$40 per hour on the insurance, and a loss rate of about $2 per hour on the $5 hands you are playing. This is VERY APPROXIMATE.
>Lets say it is a 6 deck game with 1.5 decks cut off and lets say -.4 expectation to the BS player. Thanks.
Naahh, I just feel like roughing it for the single deck game 8-)
--Mayor
Thank You Mayor!
Posted by SammyBoy on 20-Aug-2003 16:27:40 (#4713)
I would imagine the casino would get very suspicious about a player flat betting $5 on every hand, but having no problem insuring someone elses hand for $250.
Betting strategy for High low ?
Posted by Steve on 23-Aug-2003 15:23:56 (#4714)
Is there a betting strategy for the high low count?
Re: Betting strategy for High low ?
Posted by hinoon on 24-Aug-2003 17:18:04 (#4715)
Sure. As the count increases, increase your bet.
That's what you mean, right?
Maybe a bit more specifics would allow people to reply with greater detail.
But in a nutshell, there you go.
Your minimum bet is zero, your maximum bet is X-units.
Your count determines what percentage of X-units you are putting down on the table.
The "higher" your count, the closer to X-units you can confidently risk.
Most books out there go into detail as to how to adjust your bet with the count. Wong's Pro-BJ has more details than my limited brain capacity can handle.
But be careful throwing out terms like "system", as there are nasty negative "martingale" connotations that many of the folks here will take issue against.
Cheers
Re: Betting strategy for High low ?
Posted by FLA Player on 25-Aug-2003 09:49:48 (#4716)
Hi - Lo spread from Blackjack Attack:
TC 0 / +1 or negative count- table minimum or one unit
TC +2 or larger- 2 units
TC +3 or larger- 3 units
TC +4/+5- 4 units
TC +5 /+6- 5 units
TC +6 or more- two spots of 6 units (this is a 1-12 spread for a 6 deck shoe, less of a spread is required for single deck or double deck)
(I personally try to not play under any negative counts and wong in at TC +2)
The thing to do is to buy BJRM and enter all of the necessary info for the game you are playing
Fla Player
Thanks for the info n/t. *NM*
Posted by Steve on 25-Aug-2003 17:15:24 (#4718)
There are lots of them.
Posted by Negative Martingale on 25-Aug-2003 14:43:32 (#4717)
"Blackjack Attack" spreads are basically there for comparison purposes between games, and are not good spreads. However, if you look at the tables in Chapter 10 (or 12?) there is a column called "Optimal Bet", which gives the mathematically ideal amount that should be bet at each count for each game and rule variation. Your bet amounts should be as close to these amounts as practical.
"Blackjack Attack" by Don Schlesinger is the definitive answer to the question "How much do I bet?" The bet spread advice in "Professional Blackjack" by Stanford Wong is poor and just there to generate comparitive win rates. The betting advice and money management advice in "Professional Blackjack" is very good however. Both books highly recommended if you are using HiLo.
Below are some general "standard" bet spreads.
Typical spread for 6 decks.
0 1
1 2
2 4
3 7
4 8
5 10 or (2 of 7)
6 12 or (2 of 8).
Typical spread for double deck.
0 1
1 2
2 3
4 5
5 7
6 8
To avoid variance (and also in 8 deck games) some people don't increase bets until +2. Single deck you try to spread as much as you can without raising eyebrows in high counts.
In theory, each point increase in the HiLo count represents a certain % increase in advantage (your exact advantage can be found in tables in "Professional Blackjack"). You should be betting X% of your bankroll based on each % of advantage you have, and bet zero when you don't have an advantage.
In reality, you will not be able to mechanically rachet your bets up and down with the count for long, or spread a really wide amount, without the casino noticing. Therefore, there is a whole world of cover bets, cover plays, camouflage of your spread, hitting and running, non-optimal spreads, reverse or opposition betting, etc, etc, ....
hi-opt table
Posted by Brad on 25-Aug-2003 19:24:29 (#4719)
I have been using the Hi-Opt system from Stanford Wong,s Professional Blackjack book. I typically play 2 deck no surrender, but have been using the tables for 4 deck. Is there a book with the numbers for 2 deck? Is there a significant difference?
Re: hi-opt table
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 28-Aug-2003 09:33:03 (#4720)
Hi Opt I is in the book "The World's Greatest Blackjack Book" by aka Lance Humble. Is it in a Wong book to? Maybe you mean High Low?
Re: hi-opt table
Posted by Brad on 28-Aug-2003 09:45:07 (#4721)
Sorry, I meant Hi-Lo
brad
Splitting tens with etc with KO count.
Posted by Steve on 28-Aug-2003 16:59:03 (#4722)
I've recently read Knock-Out blackjack and want to incorporate the counting scheme.
Unless I missed it the book doesn't state when to split tens, double on A8 etc.
Does anyone know what count I should use when doing the above when starting at an IRC of -20(6 desks,DAS,H17)?
Re: Splitting tens with etc with KO count.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Aug-2003 09:04:32 (#4723)
If the system does not suggest you do it, don't do it. If it does, they # will be so high it is not likley you will see it happen when playing 6 decks very often. My advice to you is to pull these plays when you want the table to yourself, or want to piss off those ploppies that like to play your hands for you.
Re: Splitting tens with etc with KO count.
Posted by Negative Martingale on 29-Aug-2003 09:16:12 (#4724)
Double on A,8 vs 5,6 at the same point that your system tells you to stand on 16 vs T. (and this is also when you would double 11 vs A, and 9 vs 2). Double A,8 vs 4 at the point your system says take insurance (you should also be standing on 12 vs 2, and double of 9 vs 7 at this point).
Even if the count is high enough, please don't split your Tens.
Re: Splitting tens with etc with KO count.
Posted by Learning to count on 29-Aug-2003 13:18:56 (#4725)
Whoa there NEG. Splitting tens is a plus when and if you can get away with it. Just remember that if you do split em be ready for heat from the ploppies and security. SO if you feel the need do it with cajones bet big! Then if you win leave! I love splitting tens and winning of course it pisses off the ploppies!
Trip Report
Posted by JR on 01-Sep-2003 04:31:11 (#4726)
Summer trip with approx 200 hrs of play and a 200 unit win for each of us. Best game found was in Mesquite with DAS for single deck and friendly dealers and pit. Backed off at the Suncoast while losing--no discussion, just picked up remaining chips and left the table. Good games in Reno for single deck. Favorite place in Laughlin is the Riverside but only has DD on 10 & 11 but friendly place with virtually no heat. Playing partner advised in Binion's by the dealer that she was not allowed to spread to 5 X her min bet--she didn't argue--just left the table--this was very surprising to me for this venue. I got a really 'evil eye' from the female pit boss in the Golden Gate on one occasion, so avoided her from then on. We each won a Great Moments Restaurant scratch ticket from the LV Club's summer promo and so we scooped a $150 dinner including cocktails, appies, filet mignon & lobster tail entree, their world famous salad (yes, it was absolutely delicious) and dessert which all ended up costing us the tip of $20--all this for the dealer getting a suited BJ on a $10 hand. Found some 2D games at Chinook Winds Casino in Lincoln City, OR. Another place was a 'new' casino just south of Carson City called Fandango with friendly pit staff and 2D games. Witnessed the backoff of a gentleman playing green chips at Boomtown in Reno. All in all--a good time and more learning experiences...happy trails and cards to all!!!!!!
Re: Trip Report
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Sep-2003 11:47:55 (#4727)
Nice report, but do tell, you put in 200 hours on a single trip? That must have been one LONG trip. Then again, it's a long strange trip we're on.
--Mayor
Re: Trip Report
Posted by JR on 01-Sep-2003 19:04:48 (#4729)
We left home July 8th and returned on August 16th. Cheers!!!
Re: Trip Report
Posted by wong out on 01-Sep-2003 16:39:57 (#4728)
Nice report. Congrats on getting the hours in; sounds like you travelled abit from Vegas to Reno to Oregon. In my early days I used to take 2-3 week trips and just burn out an area (all shifts) playing 8-9 hrs/day at hand helds.
Now I just show up for the weekend; blend in with the action and bang away.
Good luck and thanks for the report!
Wong out
Bang On
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 02-Sep-2003 12:53:22 (#4730)
One chip per hour 100 hands per hour = 1% edge. Nice work! Glad you didn't get into any Missouri boats rides! grin
Re: Bang On
Posted by JR on 02-Sep-2003 16:56:22 (#4731)
Hi Rob...I'd like to think that we didn't quite average 100 hands/hour which would then up the % to say 1.5 but I have no way of really knowing for sure. Anyways, her win was mostly lucky cards while mine was all skill--can't let her see this post though...grin. As far as Missouri goes, I've never been there, but I'll take your word for it.
True Count and rounding
Posted by Frank on 03-Sep-2003 05:40:38 (#4732)
In Professional Blackjack, it says that you should truncate the true count when before you use the strategy indices. For example, 3.2 becomes 3. My question is: does this apply to negative indices too?
The situation that comes up often is whether to hit 16 vs. a 10 when the true count is in between -1 and 0. If you truncate the true count, you end up standing. If you round down to -1, you hit. Is there a definite answer about this?
Re: True Count and rounding
Posted by Negative Martingale on 03-Sep-2003 08:30:30 (#4733)
Don't round, FLOOR. If the TC is -.25 (or -.0001 even), Floor it, and play it like -1. Likewise, a TC of +2.995 is +2, not +3.
Re: True Count and rounding
Posted by Sonny on 03-Sep-2003 11:26:47 (#4734)
> The situation that comes up often is whether to hit 16 vs. a 10 when the true
> count is in between -1 and 0. If you truncate the true count, you end up
> standing. If you round down to -1, you hit. Is there a definite answer about
> this?
For this particular situation, you could simply hit with any negative RC, and stand with any positive RC. If the count is exactly zero, flip a coin.
In general, though, truncating your RCs for betting decisions is fine. When it comes to strategy decisions, it doesn't make much difference if you are off by less than 1 point. Indecies are more meant to give you the general area where changes to basic strategy are worthwhile than to indicate a precise pivot in EV. If you change your strategy at a TC of 0.8 instead of exactly 1.0 it will not make much of a difference. Most indecies have been rounded from their exact values to make them easier to use anyway. Maybe the precise index is 0.8 instead of 1.0 after all!
-Sonny-
Re: True Count and rounding
Posted by V-man on 04-Sep-2003 13:53:10 (#4740)
Even though this case 16 vs 10 happens quite often, mistake made around TC ~0 is like Don said 'wouldn't buy you a hot dog on the Board walk!'
If the true count is around 0, I usually flip the coin or play like the ploppies around me, ie follow their advice :)
Re: True Count and rounding
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Sep-2003 10:12:34 (#4752)
Right on. Great way to make friends and influence people. ;>
quick quest poker
Posted by chicagoslim on 03-Sep-2003 16:34:35 (#4735)
Hey Gents,
A while back a poker strategy was thrown around after going through the double latte C++ infiniti hand simulation. I couldn't remember what was the game ? Does anyone remember? Just wondering? Not that I ever move from the bj table but for curiosity.
May your counts be High
Thanks
More information, please
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Sep-2003 16:56:00 (#4736)
Please share a bit more, and I'll do what I can.
--Mayor
Re: quick quest poker
Posted by Learning to count on 03-Sep-2003 21:18:39 (#4737)
Hey Slim hows my favorite cuz doing in pizza land. Panther counter is practicing and hoping to alleviate the damage he recieved last trip out. We will see we will see. The mayor decried PC's playing style as "dangerous". A good book for playing Texas Hold'em Low Limit is Called "winning low limit hold em"; by Lee Jones. Take this info in high regards cuz, the Mayor turned me on to it.
A BJ advantage player needs a backup at times and poker is the only other skilled game out there. When are you coming to visit anyway????
Re: quick quest poker
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 04-Sep-2003 09:20:28 (#4739)
A fine second is poker. Another option is sports betting. Both take some time to get your skill levels to high and above. At least with sports you know you are playing against sharks. With poker, you never know if your swimming with tuna or with JAWS! grin
StarKist
KO indices for H17 games?
Posted by pinkmartindale on 04-Sep-2003 03:06:00 (#4738)
I was wondering if anyone had simulations or knew how to find simulations for multiple deck 2-8 deck, h17 games. I need to know the exact indices for these games using the KO count.
Generally, I think it's better to be slightly more aggressive with stiff hands and double more often in a h17 game as opposed to a s17 game. I.E., always double an 11 against an A (according to b.s.). I'm guessing this is because the dealer busts more often in h17 games, but I'm no mathematician. I've tried SBA and Casino Verite, but I hit snags in both programs trying to make the aforesaid indices.
Does anyone know how to make these indices or have access to them? Thanks in advance.
(I bought "The World's Greatest Blackjack Simulation - KO edition by John Auston but I'm not sure how to plug the numbers in.)
Since No Experts have Replied to Your Post...
Posted by phantom007 on 08-Sep-2003 20:28:04 (#4748)
I WILL!
The answers you seek, at least up to 6D, are probably in O.V.'s book...I say "probably" just because I have read that one of the advantages of using KO is NOT having to worry about TC and multiple indicies...BUT I must admit, I have not read O.V.'s book regarding KO, as I use AOII for SD and DD, and Revere Systematic for 6D.
But you also said "The Dealer busts more often in h17 games"......though by logic, in DS17, he/she would NEVER bust, I guess it is true...BUT...the Dealer will WIN more often in DH17 games! Exactly why one should play DS17 when possible.
Anyhow, if you use KO, buy Olaf's book!
Hope this has been helpful!
phantom007.
Re: Since No Experts have Replied to Your Post...
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Sep-2003 10:10:58 (#4751)
Most X perts do not use KO.
1 and 2-deck games
Posted by Stupud Moron on 08-Sep-2003 13:47:40 (#4741)
Could anyone tell me which casinos offer 1 or 2 deck games now?
Re: 1 and 2-deck games
Posted by Learning to count on 08-Sep-2003 16:40:32 (#4744)
Downtown Vegas has some fair to good games but they are well protected. Tunica Mississippi also has fair to excellent one and two deck games. The best way is to go and hit the pavement. Oh and north Nevada Reno etc has fair to great games! Rememeber you need a five rounds dealt to you by your self for a fair game. Have fun!
Try CBJN...
Posted by phantom007 on 08-Sep-2003 20:08:37 (#4746)
...or similar services. The cost is nominal (in the big picture), and while the "SERVICES" will usually post a Disclaimer: "BJ conditions can change from day-to-day" (or even dealer-to-dealer), they usually do not, at least over the short term.
In other words, if CBJN states that Casino X in City Y offers a decent DD game in December, then odds ARE, it will still be decent in February.
If it ain't in CBJN, "call ahead"...I recently thought that I had "scooped" CBJN. I planned to stay in a Casino/Hotel in Minnesota that they had not listed! The 2003 American Casino Guide said they had BJ!
I could see the acclades (sp?) on bj.21..."Phantom007; 1st to report on BJ conditions in MN!"
They had NO BJ...tables shut down due to "lack of profit" per employees' report, or due to pulling Aces out of a 6D shoe (per some blind man I talked to in the men's room)...I believe the blind man!
Anyhow, if you are into the game seriously, or even "semi", I suggest that you pay the fees and get your B's (a local college joke for Drury in Springfield, Mo.)...armed with CBJN advice, you will be in an "Above Ave." position...All A's can only be obtained from your own shoe leather.
phantom007.
Re: Try CBJN...
Posted by gambler on 08-Sep-2003 20:12:58 (#4747)
Has anybody in the past 24 month discovered, that the conditions in a casino
changed to a better pen or other rules?
YES!
Posted by phantom007 on 08-Sep-2003 20:45:09 (#4749)
LV---SD Casino---Strip---circa 2-3/03.
Dealers have NO cut card, i.e., they shuffle whenever they want.
After about 2 decks, when I realized what was going on, me being me, simply asked, "When do you decide to shuffle?"
Answer: "About half-way through sir."
So I started TIPPING, about half-way through, on POSITIVE decks only.
WORKED GREAT!
More than once, I was afraid that the poor girl (I mean guy) was going to run out of cards.
Won enough to offset my FPR's (Full Ploppy Remissions), and after 10 days in LV, come home with almost exactly, to the $, the amount that I had left with.
phantom007.
Re: YES!
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Sep-2003 10:24:04 (#4753)
"So I started TIPPING, about half-way through, on POSITIVE decks only."
If you tip on every positive deck, midway through, you are easily tipping away more than your EV, and will be a long term loser. There is simply no way to beat a dealer who demands tips for penetration.
For example, if you are betting $100 a hand in positive counts, a tip less than $5 looks cheap to the dealer and may get you WORSE penetration. So you tip $5. Your EV on that $100 bet if you have a TC of 5 is only about $2.
--Mayor
Re: YES!
Posted by learning to count on 09-Sep-2003 11:18:40 (#4754)
Never tip! Tipping is for people who serve you and make your dinning experience or other service profitable to you monetarily or emotionally. Evryone has this dumb mind set that the casino dealers are entertaining you.
They are there to take your money!
If you tip it cuts drastically into your winnings if not your bank roll. If you feel you have to tip then read "Beyond Counting" by J. Grosjean. There is a great chapter there on tactical tipping that will not hurt you in the long run.
The dealers do work for tips yes but off of the suckers.
We are advantage players because we have studied the game and play with skill. Most successful counters understand the mathamatics of the game and play perfectly. This means that they are playing like a computer. This is the AP Nirvana we as serious players strive for.
I have seen idiots tip huge even after they lose 50K! They played like morons so they do moronic things; like tip. They say things like thanks for a great game to the dealer. I have heard the dealer apologize to losing players by saying "it's not me, it's the cards, they came out that way; I just deal them." Why would you tip someone who is, in all actuality just pushing a card under your nose when they even admit that its out of thier control. A waitress could have a drink under your nose and your food under your chin in record time. She diserves a tip!
My "tourist" solution
Posted by Sonny on 09-Sep-2003 12:22:03 (#4755)
> Never tip!
> If you tip it cuts drastically into your winnings if not your bank roll.
Better yet, DON'T TIP OUT OF YOUR BANKROLL! Obviously it doesn't make sense to work so hard to get the casino's money just to give it back, but that doesn't mean you can't tip. Whenever I plan a gambling trip, I always keep a playing bankroll and an entertainment bankroll. I use the entertainment bankroll for tipping waitresses, dealers, and vallets. Of course, I'm still losing money, but it's not coming out of my winnings. Usually just one hour of working overtime at my job will pay for an entire week's worth of tipping.
But if playing blackjack is your job, then I agree you should never tip since EVERYTHING comes out of your playing bankroll.
> Why would you tip someone who is, in all actuality just pushing a card under
> your nose when they even admit that its out of thier control.
The only good reasons to tip a dealer are to create a good game, and to preserve a good game. Although the "tipping to get better pen" is mostly a waste of time if you don't know how to do it, it can sometimes help. Also, if you tip a dealer who is giving you good pen, they will remember you the next day. Sometimes a small tip on Tuesday will insure a good game on Wednesday withough tipping a second time!
-Sonny-
Re: My "tourist" solution
Posted by Learning to count on 09-Sep-2003 15:59:25 (#4757)
"The only good reasons to tip a dealer are to create a good game, and to preserve a good game. Although the "tipping to get better pen" is mostly a waste of time if you don't know how to do it, it can sometimes help. Also, if you tip a dealer who is giving you good pen, they will remember you the next day. Sometimes a small tip on Tuesday will insure a good game on Wednesday withough tipping a second time!
-Sonny-"
Good point. Like I said the best current read on strategic tipping is "Beyond Counting" By Grosjean. Just a note if the dealer is giving you agood game and your winning. It will get hot. Most dealers if not all know something of the effects of penetration and card counting. So be careful.
IMHO, You are all F#&K-ing WRONG!
Posted by phantom007 on 15-Sep-2003 03:30:41 (#4775)
Respectfully, LTC, et.al.:
On average, I get about 20 hours/mo. in Toonika (i.e., ave. 20 hours every month), and 18 hours/day in Lost Wages (i.e., 1-2 7-day trips/yr.), wherein I usually play 18 hours/day.
Anyhow, to date, my record is as follows, as regarding my BJ career:
---Barrings-----------------------0.
---"Run for the Door"-------------1.
---Heat---------------------------OFTEN.
---"Caught Counting"--------------1-3 by PC's.
---"Caught Counting"--------------235 by Dealers.
The point is that, "when I am caught", it is usually by the Dealers...NOT the PC's, the EYE, etc. They often say, "Why did you hit that 14 vs. my 2-up"...I cannot say "because the TC was -7", so I say, "on a hunch". He/she winks, I tip, and I keep on playing.
I have never experienced serious "heat" in 6D...but I often do in SD and DD. If I feel that I am getting too much attention, I simply jack-up my bets in ultra-negative decks (just like I do in ultra-positive decks), and try to make PLAY changes accordingly. Certainly, I am exchanging lots of EV for longevity, but, I DO LOVE THIS GAME!
Anyhow, I figure that I usually play at a 1% overall advantage, and tip back half of that as a "Business Expense".
IMHO,
phantom007.
Re: IMHO, You are all F#&K-ing WRONG!
Posted by Learning to count on 18-Sep-2003 09:28:25 (#4786)
""""Anyhow, I figure that I usually play at a 1% overall advantage, and tip back half of that as a "Business Expense".
IMHO,
phantom007.""""
I would never doubt your time in the trenches double O seven but your belief in the tip as a weapon is dangerous. You might as well over bet your bankroll. I have seen the math and had it explained to me in english and spanish. You are playing a losing game tipping half your advantage. I do know this when the Mayor, LV BEar, JohnJ, Stanford Wong, Don schlesinger, and the Reverond snyder tells me "No Tipping"! I listen!
You are wild man though. The Phantom 007 strikes again!!!! You should print up a bunch of playing cards or business cards saying something like "you have been taken by the Phantom007, advantage player extraordinair!" Leave at the casino when you leave! DO it so they cant know who you were! That will make them even more paranoid!
But Sir...
Posted by phantom007 on 15-Sep-2003 02:25:22 (#4774)
...that is not exactly "how" I did it.
phantom007.
Grosjean Case
Posted by Cyrano on 08-Sep-2003 15:53:19 (#4742)
Does anybody know what happened with the Grosjean Case? It was supposed to start on Aug 12th, but I haven't heard anything about it. Thx for any info!!
Re: Grosjean Case
Posted by Negative Martingale on 08-Sep-2003 16:06:10 (#4743)
Strangely quiet.
Out of court settlement and non-disclosure agreement of terms?
Or just dropped due to lack of interest and lack of legal funds?
Or unable to penetrate the crooked system that is Las Vegas Justice?
I am curious also.
Re: Grosjean Case
Posted by The Mayor on 08-Sep-2003 18:42:17 (#4745)
I will kindly request that LVBear(or other kind soul) venture to the courthouse and send me updated documents to post on this site for all to see.
--Mayor
Re: Grosjean Case
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Sep-2003 10:08:47 (#4750)
Moly moly moly moly moly moly moly!! smile
Austin McPowers
Trial now set for 1/14/2004. *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 09-Sep-2003 15:57:30 (#4756)
confused about counting and neg progression
Posted by drew on 10-Sep-2003 12:12:48 (#4758)
first let me say that i have found this site to be very helpful in getting me started. i started counting about 2 months ago using basic hi-low strategy. i switched to K-O because i wasnt winning. i have started winning consistently with K-O and am now learning Revere APC. I play a 6 deck das 75% pen, double any 2 cards, dealt face up at a nearby riverboat. they also have a handheld game with 2 decks that i have played, but i have trouble keeping track of the cards. My winnings have been consistent but insignificant, i earn much more hourly working.
recently i became disenchanted and got curious about the dark arts of progressive betting (i know, they dont work). anyway i have started experimenting with a negative system similar to the dreaded martingale. the difference is you only raise your bet by a single dollar, rather than an entire unit. i.e. 5 dollar unit, loss, 6dollar, loss 7 dollars... sometimes when u go on long losing streaks or after a double u must continue to raise your bets after u win a bet. if u lost a five dollar and a six dollar, winning a seven still wouldnt recoup your losses, so u bet 8, 9, 10 until u are up again.
i understand why this should not work. however, i have never wagered over 90 dollars using this system without being up again. i was wagering more than that in my 1-15 spread using K-O. the long and short of it, im averaging about 100 an hour now using this stupid betting progression. and when i do why is it working? and can u give some advice on how to do better with K-O on the type of game i mentioned. i have considered working with a partner and having him keep a side count... will that help? or should i just give up and resign myself to a life of practicing law.
Progressions are voodoo nonsense *LINK*
Posted by LVBear584 on 10-Sep-2003 19:36:02 (#4760)
Your short term results are meaningless.
Please see link below. Click on Progresson Systems Don't Work. It may help.
If you are smart enough to have a law degree, you surely are smart enough to not believe in progression nonsense.
Re: Progressions are voodoo nonsense
Posted by drew on 11-Sep-2003 09:52:22 (#4761)
thanks for the response. i have seen similar pages. like i said, i know its not going to work- im just beginning to lose faith in counting. how can i make my time counting more worthwhile on the type of game i described?
Re: Progressions are voodoo nonsense
Posted by Sonny on 11-Sep-2003 18:22:28 (#4764)
> I play a 6 deck das 75% pen, double any 2 cards, dealt face up at a nearby
> riverboat. they also have a handheld game with 2 decks that i have played,
> but i have trouble keeping track of the cards.
You didn't mention if the game offers late-surrender, or if the dealer hits his soft 17s. This game doesn't sound too good, and I'm guessing that if it's on a riverboat it probably isn't.
The best advice anyone will give you is to Wong in and out. This way you can use a smaller spread and have smaller fluctuations. This will also give you the chance to watch the game for a while to see if you can keep up with counting the cards. If you can't, you shouldn't be playing for money.
Actually, the BEST advice I can give you is to stay out of the casinos right now. Get some blackjack software and PRACTICE, PARACTICE, PRACTICE! You will be able to see how well you can play for free. Most programs will also let you run simulations to see how your system will work after several million (billion if you ask Norm W.) hands.
Your first job should be to read everything you can about counting (and ask questions). The next step is to practice until you can do it in your sleep. THEN think about the best way to beat the games that you are playing. You will find that different games will require different techniques, and even different basic strategies, to beat them. You will also find that many games offered (especially on riverboats and cruises) are not worthwhile.
You've got a long road ahead of you, but you're starting in the right place! Hopefully we'll hear from you quite a bit in the future.
-Sonny-
Straight Up Anti-Voodoo
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Sep-2003 14:52:00 (#4762)
If you want to play blackjack and make money doing so all you really need is basic strategy and a computer. The bonus creates a solid advantage, no ups and downs, and it is much simpler than counting.
If you like breathing second hand smoke, playing with dirty chips, dirty money, and like driving all over tarnation to do it, then playing online is not for you.
There is a precice bet for each instance of your advantage, and that is the one to make. Underbetting and overbetting it will change the results in short term returns. This is supposed to balance itself out, so get ready for a big correction. If you can't keep a count then I wouldn't bother playing right now. Don't take the easy way out and fiddle with progressions.
Re: confused about counting and neg progression
Posted by Learning to count on 11-Sep-2003 16:10:59 (#4763)
"first let me say that i have found this site to be very helpful in getting me started. i started counting about 2 months ago using basic hi-low strategy. i switched to K-O because i wasnt winning. i have started winning consistently with K-O and am now learning Revere APC. I play a 6 deck das 75% pen, double any 2 cards, dealt face up at a nearby riverboat. they also have a handheld game with 2 decks that i have played, but i have trouble keeping track of the cards. My winnings have been consistent but insignificant, i earn much more hourly working."
First of all Drew Today it is very difficult to make a living at Card counting or to much less make a fortune at it. Few are still doing it but the time you need to put into it alone is rediculous. The swings will drive you nuts. I took a few months off after a mild negative run. To clear my head. Ko is a good start. I use hi-lo. If your having trouble keeping track of single deck then I think you needwork on your ability to see cards fast enough. If you are straining to see the count then you can't play perfect strategy. You need to strengthen your skills. I would stay with KO or HI-LO. RAPC is very difficult.
"recently i became disenchanted and got curious about the dark arts of progressive betting (i know, they dont work). anyway i have started experimenting with a negative system similar to the dreaded martingale. the difference is you only raise your bet by a single dollar, rather than an entire unit. i.e. 5 dollar unit, loss, 6dollar, loss 7 dollars... sometimes when u go on long losing streaks or after a double u must continue to raise your bets after u win a bet. if u lost a five dollar and a six dollar, winning a seven still wouldnt recoup your losses, so u bet 8, 9, 10 until u are up again."
If you are using progressions then you have a gambling problem. You are sweating your losses and reverting to anything to help you get them back. It is long term steaming. Quit playing! If you want to continue then you need to train more and read more.
"i understand why this should not work. however, i have never wagered over 90 dollars using this system without being up again. i was wagering more than that in my 1-15 spread using K-O. the long and short of it, im averaging about 100 an hour now using this stupid betting progression. and when i do why is it working? and can u give some advice on how to do better with K-O on the type of game i mentioned. i have considered working with a partner and having him keep a side count... will that help? or should i just give up and resign myself to a life of practicing law."
Hey about practicing law in Nevada and representing poor advantage players who get attacked by the as#holes in casino security!
Profitable game?
Posted by De La Billierre on 12-Sep-2003 07:33:12 (#4765)
I play BJ in a country far away from your own. It is 6 deck, with an estimated house advantage of 0.54%. The upside of this is that the minimums are US$3 and the max is US$700. I can spread to the maximums with impunity.
My question is this: Is this game profitable using the max spreads or do I need to Wong frquently?
Many thanks in advance
Re: Profitable game?
Posted by CougFan on 12-Sep-2003 18:51:47 (#4766)
The difference between a $3 - $700 spread and wonging out of all negatives is not very significant. This is either a profitable game regardless, or it is not. In order to determine whether or not the game is profitable, you need to supply the rules and penetration. Initial House Edge is useful, but not sufficient since many rules have a different effect on counters than they do on Basic Strategy players. Surrender is one example.
Also, I am assuming that you do not care about ROR and are only asking about potential positive EV?
Re: Profitable game?
Posted by De La Billiere on 22-Sep-2003 10:35:43 (#4803)
The house rules are as follows: DAS, S17, Double on 9-10-11, resplit up to four hands, resplit only once with aces.
Oh yeah, it's european NHC, and the house takes all the money when it wins, including doubles and splits. The house edge stated by the casino seems about right - what are your thoughts?
Hope this is enough info. Thanks
Re: Profitable game?
Posted by gambler on 12-Sep-2003 19:43:54 (#4767)
Do you know, what the meaning of wonging is? There are two meanings:a) to safe money when the count is negative. b)to cover your skills, because you play only the hands you like to, with a certain amount of money. So if it is to expensive for you, to play ALL the hands, because of the 3 dollars you mentioned, play from outside.
is anyone making money counting?
Posted by tony on 13-Sep-2003 02:08:06 (#4768)
i heard that all those blackjack books are nothing but scams that don't work in the casinos.
Re: is anyone making money counting?
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Sep-2003 05:41:22 (#4769)
They are huge scams. Most of them are just for making money. The only author I would suggest that you and only you should read is John Patrick "So ya wanna be a gambler series". Good luck and keep trolling!
John Patrick?
Posted by phantom007 on 15-Sep-2003 02:19:45 (#4773)
Isn't he the guy who replaced Moulder on the X-Files? And, wasn't he the cop in Terminator II? And speaking of the X-Files, am I the only one "out there" that would just love to ride Gillian Anderson like a mechanical bull???
Why is that guy writing BJ books?
Why am I only asking questions?
Why did I go to Toonika about 3 weeks ago and win $1500. on SD?
Why did I go back about a week later and win $3,000. on DD?
AND THEN, why in the HELL, did I get Sh#t-faced, and give it all back in 30 minutes at the Craps Table?
Why?
phantom007?
Re: is anyone making money counting?
Posted by BJT on 14-Sep-2003 07:12:34 (#4770)
I did. You bet small, you count, then you bet big, win on average. Why it can't be done? I made $millions.
Re: is anyone making money counting?
Posted by Black Jack Hack on 14-Sep-2003 23:33:52 (#4772)
I've only played actively the past 2 years. Made a lot last year. Down slightly this year.
Re: is anyone making money counting?
Posted by Cadillac on 16-Sep-2003 13:30:38 (#4779)
i've found it to be a fun, interesting hobby. its not really all that much about the amounts of money. if so, i'd starve to death right after i pulled my hair out...........
John Patrick? A joke.
Posted by Max Headroom on 16-Sep-2003 20:53:16 (#4780)
Yes, it is possible to make money counting cards. The hardest part is finding games that are good enough to play, some games are just so bad they should be avoided altogether. Somebody recommended books by John Patrick, I certainly hope that was a joke. That guy is an idiot and a moron. Not only does he have his own basic strategy which isn't based upon computer analysis, but upon his own "gut" instincts, he also recommends taking insurance when you have a blackjack. His books are basically trash.
Re: John Patrick? A joke.
Posted by Learning to count on 17-Sep-2003 06:16:19 (#4781)
Ugh I think its called sarcasm.
Re: John Patrick? A joke.
Posted by V-man on 17-Sep-2003 13:30:28 (#4782)
I agree that John's book is trash. But there are reasons behind why he wrote such a book. Many card counter knows BJ is a tough game. With conditions these days, 6-8 decks with less than 75% pen, some had to put on act or camouflage, the advantage is barely about 0.5% if any. For this kind of games, the long run is really ... long. Putting in about 150 hours, at local casino over week-ends and full table, you'll have to play something like 10 years to reach some kind of long run. You have been counting and playing for about 5 years and makes some money? that's still short run. you ain't see nothing yet.
I heard John Patrick was a proper counter before he wrote that book. He has probably gone thru this and realize that most people don't have that kind of 'Patience' to carry on. His book kind of suggest people playing with 'feeling' instead. He mentioned nothing about long run, which is key to all good BJ books. And of course, no one has come up with a theory that will work in short run.
Re: John Patrick? A joke.
Posted by Learning to count on 17-Sep-2003 15:15:26 (#4783)
""I agree that John's book is trash.""
Okay point taken and I agree 100%
""But there are reasons behind why he wrote such a book.""
Because he is a casino shill and a degenerate gambler and finally figured out how to make money by selling the bullshite that he used to believe was true to the other suckers.
""Many card counter knows BJ is a tough game. With conditions these days, 6-8 decks with less than 75% pen, some had to put on act or camouflage, the advantage is barely about 0.5% if any. For this kind of games, the long run is really ... long. Putting in about 150 hours, at local casino over week-ends and full table, you'll have to play something like 10 years to reach some kind of long run. You have been counting and playing for about 5 years and makes some money? that's still short run. you ain't see nothing yet.""
Okay and your point???
""I heard John Patrick was a proper counter before he wrote that book.""
More sucker's mythology...but go on...
""He has probably gone thru this and realized that most people don't have that kind of 'Patience' to carry on. His book kind of suggest people playing with 'feeling' instead. He mentioned nothing about long run, which is key to all good BJ books. And of course, no one has come up with a theory that will work in short run.""
AAAAHHHH now your drifting off into voodoo/mythology land. With all do respect V-man but your totally wrong! Keep reading. There is a great list of Advantage play theory and how to books listed at this site. Check them out. John Patrick is full of shite!
with due respect
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Sep-2003 08:29:37 (#4784)
Quoting from the previous post:
>AAAAHHHH now your drifting off into voodoo/mythology land.
I think V-man is right on. Let's look at the comments he wrote, sentence by sentence, that you think are "shite".
>>""He has probably gone thru this and realized that most people don't have that kind of 'Patience' to carry on.
OK, maybe Patrick never had a realization in his life more meaningful than it feeling good when he sticks his thumb up his as*, but he does know marketing, and quick/easy fixes are what people want.
>>His book kind of suggest people playing with 'feeling' instead.
This comment by V-man is 100% accurate.
>>He mentioned nothing about long run, which is key to all good BJ books.
This comment by V-man is 100% accurate. The thesis is that it's us "Math Boyz" who preach the unreachable long run, so essentially we are all in it for the short-run, hence that's the game we have to beat. This is total BS, of course. It's trying to climb Everest by looking for all the parts of the path that are downhill, and only climbing those.
>>And of course, no one has come up with a theory that will work in short run.""
I really don't know about this. What does it mean for a theory to work in the short run? Many people have short run wins. Or are you asking if there is a way to guarantee a win over an evenings' play? I know several ways of doing this (mostly not legal).
It is our conception of "long run", which is makes us think that 100 million hands is enough to be in the long run. Maybe the "short run" really is all any of us (humans/computers/universe) have, and essentially we want to know the odds we will get ahead after our little adventure into our particular "short run". After all, 100 million is no closer to infinity than 5.
--Mayor
Re: with due respect
Posted by Learning to count on 18-Sep-2003 09:20:22 (#4785)
""" >>""He has probably gone thru this and realized that most people don't have that kind of 'Patience' to carry on.
OK, maybe Patrick never had a realization in his life more meaningful than it feeling good when he sticks his thumb up his as*, but he does know marketing, and quick/easy fixes are what people want. """
Most people view gambling as a form of entertainment;to wit: they are fools.
Most degenerate gamblers are sick and have no patience to explore and learn.
We are talking about advantage play not gambling. leave for the JP web site.
"""">>His book kind of suggest people playing with 'feeling' instead.
This comment by V-man is 100% accurate. """"
I aggree 1000%. This is VOODOO!
""""">>He mentioned nothing about long run, which is key to all good BJ books.
This comment by V-man is 100% accurate. The thesis is that it's us "Math Boyz" who preach the unreachable long run, so essentially we are all in it for the short-run, hence that's the game we have to beat. This is total BS, of course. It's trying to climb Everest by looking for all the parts of the path that are downhill, and only climbing those.
>>And of course, no one has come up with a theory that will work in short run.""
I really don't know about this. What does it mean for a theory to work in the short run? Many people have short run wins. Or are you asking if there is a way to guarantee a win over an evenings' play? I know several ways of doing this (mostly not legal).
It is our conception of "long run", which is makes us think that 100 million hands is enough to be in the long run. Maybe the "short run" really is all any of us (humans/computers/universe) have, and essentially we want to know the odds we will get ahead after our little adventure into our particular "short run". After all, 100 million is no closer to infinity than 5.
--Mayor"""""
The long run and infinity. Indices were calculated as to give the best playing decision. The difference between the decision being correct or incorrect is microscopic but can lead to great losses. Mind boggling even for a math illiterate person as my self. Great thread V-man and you too Mayor. AP philosophy 101! LTC Hey Mayor lets go to Vegas and try and take the casino's money away!
You got it
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Sep-2003 09:28:32 (#4787)
>Hey Mayor lets go to Vegas and try and take the casino's money away!
I might be able to manage a weekend frolic.
--Mayor
Re: You got it
Posted by Sonny on 18-Sep-2003 11:25:09 (#4789)
>I might be able to manage a weekend frolic.
>
>--Mayor
Sounds great! I just finished some sims on my new "fool proof" method to win in the short run. I ran ten sims of twenty hands each and I ALWAYS WON! YOU TOO can also BE A WINNER EVERY TIME if you follow my SIMPLE FOOL-PROOF system. I will sell it to you for $40. ACT NOW and get a SPECIAL BONUS DISCOUNT! Just send me $20 for the system, then send me the other $20 out of your WINNINGS. This system is SO SIMPLE, you don't even have to know how to read to make it work! EVEN ILLITERATE PEOPLE can WIN BIG WHENEVER THEY WANT! Turn casinos into your own private ATM machines!
I have used this strategy "numerous" times in the casinos. Although I lost all of my money every time I used it, I will easily make all the money back by selling this system. I didn't say that it was fool-proof for the PLAYER, only fool-proof for the SELLER!
-Sonny Patrick-
Re: Long run starts with short run!
Posted by Sonny on 18-Sep-2003 11:12:27 (#4788)
> His book kind of suggest people playing with 'feeling' instead. He mentioned
> nothing about long run, which is key to all good BJ books. And of course, no
> one has come up with a theory that will work in short run.
Let's get this over with already!
Basic strategy is not someone's opinion of how to play, it is the optimal way to play. All of the probabilities have been calculated and all of the payouts have been analyzed. If you are not playing accurate basic strategy, you are playing WRONG!
You may win a few hands by following your "feelings" instead of the strategy, but there is no way to be assuread that you will win. In fact, it is more likely that you will lose if you are not playing accurately. It's like playing darts with a blindfold. You may get incredibly lucky, but don't expect to get lucky very often.
Sure, we've all seen players doubling on hard twelve or splitting fives who keep winning hand after hand. They were lucky to hit the dartboard, but this is unlikely. Sure, betting against the odds will sometimes win, but if you are looking for a system that is more LIKELY to come out a winner why would you not play accurately?
A good system for the short run is the same system as for the long run.
-Sonny-
Re: Long run starts with short run!
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Sep-2003 11:33:37 (#4790)
You said:
>A good system for the short run is the same system as for the long run.
All I can say is that you are not thinking "advantage play" in its full glory when you say something like this. There are plenty of ways of taking money out of a casino that CAN NOT be repeated for the long run. The objective is to take the money while it is there to be taken, and burn out the game. This is not always counting, it can be a 2-1 BJ promo, couponomy, or something else worth burning.
The burn-and-run strategy is entirely short-run, with each situation demanding an entirely new strategy.
--Mayor
Ah, touche!
Posted by Sonny on 18-Sep-2003 14:33:52 (#4791)
> The burn-and-run strategy is entirely short-run, with each situation
> demanding an entirely new strategy.
Excellent point. You were thinking a little beyond the scope of what I was trying to get across. I was focusing strictly on playing strategy alone.
What good is a 2-1 coupon or promotion if your playing strategy is so bad that you STILL don't have an edge? My point was that you have to have a solid base if you want to win. You can't rely on unlikely events to carry you through the short term. Vegas was built on people who just wanted to hit the big jackpot, no matter what the odds were. That is the reason we play blackjack and not slots.
There is a reason for certain bets being the "underdog". They are less likely to come true. Jonh Patrick's strategies are based on these "underdog hands" that many gamblers don't understand. He has removed the skill aspect of the game and left only the luck aspect. I would rather have both on my side. Even then, I would prefer skill over luck, since luck comes and goes. In the short run you may NEVER see ANY good luck. At least a solid strategy will reduce your losses.
Re: John Patrick? A joke.
Posted by John Lewis on 09-Oct-2003 00:44:15 (#4879)
John Patrick is the Boris Karloff (sp?) of blackjack authors.
But he's not any scarier than his true fans.
Suspicious Shoes
Posted by Miss Diva on 14-Sep-2003 20:33:03 (#4771)
I've just returned from an "unprofitable" trip to (uck!)
Grand Casino Coushatta
in Kinder, "Looseanna". Don't EVEN ask why I went there...
Besides feeling like I was CHEATED playing Blackjack,
I got a speeding ticket leaving !!!!!!!!!!!!
Now tell me something guys (
why no women here?),
what kind of a policeman will
ticket two chicks in Jaquar...and not even hit on us ???
He's gay, you think?
Going 64 in a 40!! Excuse me,...What's wrong with that???...times wastin' !!
I have to get back to Houston, "ossifer", so bug OFF would ya pleeeze !!!
Anyhoooooo...I was wondering about something. There seemed to be way too many 5's in the shoes....and I know that's bad for the player.
Everytime I tried to count the 5's (6 decks / shoe), I got more than
expected. Has anyone played there before and noticed that.
I'm no great BJ player...but I play a near perfect basic strategy...my dad
was a great player (he taught me) and I'm learning how to count,
but I can't do it yet...the game's still too fast for me.
Thanks,
Miss Diva
Re: Suspicious Shoes
Posted by FLA Player on 15-Sep-2003 12:33:21 (#4776)
I think that I speak for The Mayor and LTC in saying we need more hot chick counters- and especially girls from Houston...in a Jaguar! And I believe the hotter you are the less "heat" you will get once you start counting. Sorry I couldn't help the pun.
Casinos that are governed by a state gaming commission are doubtful as far as short shoeing- are you sure on the amount of "5's"? It could have been simple standard deviation- since you're not yet a counter what was your spread? If playing perfect basic strategy you should have been flat betting. The other thing is to play no longer then 45-60 minute sessions and maybe have a stop / loss limit. How big was your trip bankroll? There is a lot of math involved to play a winning game, not just sitting down at a table. Picking the correct casino, with the best rules / penetration, having enough money to withstand the negative swings, and not to overbet your bankroll are all crucial- and then you have to work on what cover is effective so you're not "made" as a counter....but if you're hot, don't worry- the pit isn't looking for Carmen Electra counting cards.
I would recommend CVBJ software to practice your game and counting...this board is excellent as far as advice. "Playing blackjack as a business" is a good book to start with even if it is outdated- Good cards
FLA Player
Re: Hot chicks
Posted by Learning to count on 15-Sep-2003 13:50:19 (#4777)
I have to agree with Fla Player! He is a man who knows his chicks and advantage play at that! So what up diva you need a card countng coach. I know about a dozen pf pro's here who are willing to help out. Ask away we will respond!
First step of Advantage Play: Avoid Traps.
Posted by Negative Martingale on 15-Sep-2003 15:13:59 (#4778)
The LA police make a living giving people from TX tickets. Given the number of TX people that go to LA casinos, the route from the casino back to TX is natural hunting grounds for them. By speeding (even 1 mile over the limit, if they are hungry) who fell right into their trap. Kind of like the same trap you fell into trying to play BJ in a casino and not knowing how to count.
As far as the cop not hitting on you, I don't think he was gay. If you were missing a few teeth and driving an old rusted out pickup truck, he probably would have been all over you. He simply didn't recognize you as prey, even after being attracted by the TX license plates.
By the way, how many 5s do you "expect" to find in a shoe?
Journal Revisited
Posted by CanKen on 19-Sep-2003 16:32:46 (#4792)
Back on July 23 Mayor posted contents of an e-mail I sent him describing 3+ years of play, and a graph of the data. I had been quite successful over the preceding eight months and was probably somewhat over impressed with my results.
V-man posted a reply on August 18, pointing out, quite rightly, that it was mainly luck that put me that far to the right on the normal curve.
The next four weeks after my post brought me back to BJ earth. Fifteen (15!) consecutive losing sessions, some big, some small, cost me two thirds of the eight month's gain. I knew that V-man's comments were valid, that I was way above my theoretical expectation,and that there would be setbacks. But I didn't expect to get hit so hard and for so long.
I can almost understand why some players begin to think they are being cheated, or that card counting doesn't work, or that computer derived playing strategy is wrong. But I'm sure I'm not being cheated; I believe in the math; and I'll stick with it.
The sometimes extreme variance inherent in the game cannot be avoided no matter what J. Patterson, J. Patrick, and those who call us "math-weenies", say or try to sell. The only way to deal with the variance is with knowledge, skill, patience, and the hard part, which is acceptance of the inevitable losing streaks.
My BR is now recovering slowly. I'm still ahead, much closer to a reasonable
expectation, and enjoying the game.
Thanks to V-man and Mayor for their interest.
P.S. I'm curious - has any reader had a losing streak longer than 15 in a row?
CanKen
Re: Journal Revisited
Posted by wong out on 20-Sep-2003 10:31:54 (#4794)
I dont know about 15 in a row; I never checked. Session win/losses dont mean anything. The only relevant thing is your ev/variance and hours played. I have had losing streaks that have lasted well into the hundreds of hours range but over time I have hit ev the best i can tell. Many experienced players that I have met over time focus too much on short term results. A guy a few weeks ago crowed about a $500/hr win rate since the beginning of the year; I say nice but dont worry we are all headed for ev land in the long run; of course some of us have more fun in getting there! Dont focus on the wins/losses; just bet within your br, play good games, be aggressive and you'll get yours.
good luck!
wong out
Re: Journal Revisited
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Sep-2003 10:58:17 (#4795)
>P.S. I'm curious - has any reader had a losing streak longer than 15 in a row?
I assume you mean 15 days in a row, rather than 15 hands in a row.
I once lost 17 hands in a row. Fortunately they were all min bets.
I once went through a period of 19 days in a row without a winning day above $100 (and mostly losing days, I think 15 out of 19 were losing).
Yes, it can get ugly. Thanks for sharing, your comments are a good reality check.
--Mayor
Re: Journal Revisited
Posted by CanKen on 20-Sep-2003 18:46:10 (#4798)
To clarify, I had fifteen consecutive losing sessions, on different days, over a period of about four weeks. You begin to think that you will never win again.
CK
Re: Journal Revisited
Posted by gambler on 21-Sep-2003 10:13:37 (#4799)
Several weeks ago, I wanted to post on this board(but didn`t): Need help, I AM WINNING! Doubling my BR within /70 hours, 14 consecutive winning sessions.
Incredible experiance not to loose anymore. There is nothing more boring, than leaving every day the casino with winnings.
Re: Journal Revisited
Posted by V-man on 21-Sep-2003 18:18:51 (#4801)
Welcome to the wonderful and yet mysterious game of BJ!
Card counting isn't easy. As someone had mentioned before, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it, and the casinos would've killed the game long time ago.
One of my friend never believe in card counting. He told me that with an average of about .5% advantage, how can you make a difference? mind you though, he play perfect Basic Strategy (at least there is some good thing he believes in) for any session he would vary his bets based on his 'feeling' rather than Bet By The Count. At one time he hit a lucky streak that last about a few months (playing every week, twice a week), and up a few Grand. At that time, I predicted that he was going to loose back all his winnings plus some of his own BR! And yes he eventually did give back.
I know another fellow, who played his own BS (stand A7 against ten, do not hit 12 against 13, etc ...) probably about 1% house edge. He told me last year, he made up more that 10k, playing the same casino, hitting about 3-4 times a week, for about 3-4 hour sessions. But eventually he lost back all the winnings plus quite a few from his own pocket! Now he only go to the casino maybe once a month.
My point is that the long run in this game is really long. For the fellow ploppy above, even playing at 1% house edge he was still able to win for a whole year (he put in maybe 700-1000 hours!). Now let's view the scenario as a counter's point of view, ie as a counter, let's assume we have an overall advantage of about 1% edge (tough to find these days!), we turn the table around, we are now the casino, and the casino becomes the ploppy playing against us. Playing for 500 hours, we could still be loosing to the ploppy.
Last year, when I started learning how to count at the BJ table, I hit a winning streak that took me way above my EV. At the time I told my wife that I will be giving back some of my winnings, there is no way I could be winning that much. And eventually, I did give back, all of my winnings, plus some of my pocket hard earned dollars! I started to question about my ability in counting, my wife started to question my brain power, she said to me: "Honey, are you sure you were not counting in reverse! counting the negative cards as positive and vice versa. And bet large when it's really negative?". I'm not smart but I don't think I was that dumb! Mistakes do happen, especially with a session long into the night, but it is rather like, instead of a running count of +10, I would be mistaken for +12. There is a difference in mistakes but it can't be so dramatic that I lost my shirt! I started to loose interest in BJ sites like this, cardcounter.com, bj21.com, rge21.com, etc ... What's the sense in reading someone else postings bragging about their winnings while I'm still loosing my shirt! After a while reflecting about what I have gone through, my play, my BJ conditions, the number of hours I put in, etc ... I then realize that with the BJ conditions I'm playing, I'm still in the short run of the game. For now, I just have to say this to myself: "Eventually, I'll get my money back and plus some more of the casinos. Eventually, I'll hit a winning streak again, and this time I will hit the casinos hard, I promise."
This game ain't easy, with all the mathematics proven, with all the computer simulations formulated, but yet we are still human, we play the game as a human being, not as a robot or a computer, and as a human being, we have our own emotion. It's tough to get by this emotion. I once enjoyed a winning streak, and during a shoe with very negative counts, I'm supposed to put out my minimum bet, but I kept winning hands after hand, finally, I talked to myself: "F... the book, I'm going to bet larger regardless of the negative counts!" I put out 4 units and lucky me, I won quite a bit at the end of the shoe.
Regarding the continuous loosing sessions, I don't look at the relationship between the sessions directly but rather as a 'trend'. I noticed that since the beginning of the last december, I started the downward trend. I did not loose continuosly 15 sessions but I would loose maybe 8 continuous sessions and then win a couple of small wins and then start the downward trend again. The mysterious thing is that I seemed to loose most of my large bets and win many of my small bets! Go figure!
Re: Journal Revisited
Posted by CanKen on 22-Sep-2003 09:34:41 (#4802)
V-man:
I got a big laugh out of your wife's comments. I'm sure my wife is thinking the same things, only she hasn't said them out loud - yet.
CK
El Cortez heat
Posted by CR on 19-Sep-2003 23:11:37 (#4793)
I have noticed that the level of heat at the EC varies among the bosses. Any input on this? I have had some great sessions with a couple of their asian female bosses who seem to be more tolerant of everything.
Re: El Cortez heat
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Sep-2003 11:03:31 (#4796)
I can get kicked out of EC in a heartbeat, and have many times. During the swing shift, they usually have this guy (LVBear, you know his name, as I recall) who is about 60 years old, about 5'8", overweight, grey, and a bit bald. He is the hit man, but the lady does not noticing (she is asian, about 50). In my experience, she tells him to watch a player, he does so, and counts down the deck, and then does the axing. She's the brains, he's the braun. Last time there I managed 10 minutes before the nod. Time before that about 5.
--Mayor
Re: El Cortez heat
Posted by Learning to count on 20-Sep-2003 12:38:31 (#4797)
They watch the bet spread and the amount. They are used to milking the idiots there. $3 and $5 dollar bets. If you play stay red. Any bet over 30-35 dollars will get the watch. And any big bets spread will get the boot. A good place to perfect your single deck game and practice your act. I have always won there but you can play all day to make fifty to a hundred bucks. The chinese lady is a real witch. The old guy is a real hoot. He is on players quick and he tries to act menacing! Other than the small time action here the coffee shop is cheap. No comps here!
Re: El Cortez heat
Posted by gambler on 21-Sep-2003 17:02:10 (#4800)
Has it any SIGNIFICANT effect on CC`s carrer, if being barred at the EL Cortez?
El Cortez barring is meaningless
Posted by LVBear584 on 24-Sep-2003 14:21:17 (#4809)
They back off so many people, they can't possibly remember them all. They wil even back off a ploppy on a lucky streak. You can go back time and time again, if you really want to.
It's such a low-roller dump that it's really just a training ground for new counters and other advantage players. They call out "brown action" with a single brown (green, anywhere else) chip. "Checks play" can be as little as $50.00 at times.
The loss of it is no big loss.
Re: El Cortez heat
Posted by CougFan on 25-Sep-2003 12:40:59 (#4814)
I'll second this comment:
"And any big bets spread will get the boot."
I would only add that ANY bet jump which happens to correlate to the count will get you booted. A single jump will get you booted immediately. They don't make any attempt to verify that you are an AP. They seem happy milking the $3 betters and are content to piss off any ploppies who bet more than red. I guess they figure that the only people who would play there are AP's and homeless people.
Bet Spread
Posted by SB on 23-Sep-2003 11:26:58 (#4804)
I am playing at the Borgata in Atlantic City, 6 deck game 75% Penetration,Double on Any,Double after Split,No Surrender.
I have a 6,000 Bankroll and am counting using High/Low. I am Wonging into 5.00 and 10.00 games and not sitting till true of Plus 2,and sitting out ALL Negative Counts.I am varying Basic strategy based on True Count,(or running count when decesion # is 0)I take Insurance at True of Plus 3.
I play 5 days a week 8 Hours a day.
Question?? What is the Optimal Bet Spread for 5.00 Tables? And 10.00 Tables given the above stated conditions.
I have been considering the following spreads:
True Count:
0 1 Unit
+1 2 Units
+2 4 Units
+3 7 Units
+4 8 Units
+5 10 or (2 of 7) Units
+6 12 or (2 of 8) Units
OR:
TC 0 / +1 table minimum or one unit
TC +2 or larger- 2 units
TC +3 or larger- 3 units
TC +4/+5- 4 units
TC +5 /+6- 5 units
TC +6 or more- two spots of 6 units
Which Table is better First or Second one?? Or does anuyone have a better "Bet Spread" suggestion??
My goal is to win an average of 125.00 Per day.
Re: Bet Spread
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Sep-2003 09:28:26 (#4805)
If you figure each +1TC = .5% then at +2 you have a .5% edge. One half percent of BR = $30. At +3 you have 1% approx, = $60. At +4, 1.5% = $90. So, a simple rule would be TC-1 in green. I wouldn't bet more than $75 with that BR. Normally I just flat bet when I back count and track, but this is my final answer....grin
Rob
Re: Bet Spread
Posted by Learning to count on 24-Sep-2003 12:07:07 (#4807)
Your bankroll is good enough for comp collecting and with a little luck you could win a little bit to take home to the misses. I agree with Rob M. on your spread. If you have no problem with a higher ROR then you could up your bet. I would stay within a 1-10 spread and then if you wanna risk more then go to 1 to 25. Somewhere in between will lower your ROR. Get a copy of bjrm and you can take the guess work out of bet spreads. It took time for me to realize that you need a minimum of ten grand for red in order to get over the vig and neg deviation so you can profit at the game. The game you described sucks but you can win if you put in the time wonging in and out. If you wanna play long at least wong out below -1.
Re: Bet Spread
Posted by SB on 24-Sep-2003 15:35:56 (#4810)
Thanks LTC, Yes Game Sucks,but is best around here in Jersey,all other casinos use 8 decks and cut off two unless 100.00 Minimum were they use 6 and cut off 1 1/2. I realize bankroll is small,partly cause I was amassing it while dealing at Trump Plaza and got tapped out in the middle of my shift three weeks ago and was let go due to "Staff Reduction"!!!Based solely on "Senority(They let 300 people go from Trump plaza,Taj and Marina) and not on "Job Performance" (THEY SUCKKKKK!!!!)So Im forced to make a living playing rather than Dealing!!!
Welcome to the Dark Side
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 25-Sep-2003 11:46:58 (#4812)
May the Force be With You!
Darth McGarvey
Re: Welcome to the Dark Side
Posted by SB on 25-Sep-2003 22:02:33 (#4816)
Thanks!!! Oh By the way,the Games here SUCKKK Even more than you think, half the Pits have "No MID Shoe Entry",Once the first hand is dealt you can't "Wong" in, and if you are in and sit out one hand you are OUT till after the next shuffle!! Also they take the "Plug"(Cards left in the Shoe after the Cut card comes out) and cut it into Three parts and randomley Insert It into the cards in the Discard rack BEFORE Shuffling to make "Shuffle Tracking" next to Impossible!!!
Re: Welcome to the Dark Side
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 26-Sep-2003 13:06:11 (#4819)
The plug really does nothing unless you think the juice is in the plug. I've followed some decent A rich juice thru three shuffles before it got taken apart, and they plugged the 2 deck cut off into the other 6 in batches of three. It is tuff, you are right. I hate the battle and just play online for the most part now, where the money flows like milk and honey....smile
Re: Welcome to the Dark Side
Posted by gambler on 26-Sep-2003 18:35:18 (#4820)
Hallo SB,
I would like to know, if they teach every dealer about the existance of cardcounting , and if they tell you, how to detect a cc.?
Thanks
Re: Welcome to the Dark Side
Posted by wong out on 27-Sep-2003 10:00:27 (#4821)
SB:
Go back to work man. FWIW - I have been playing seriously for a while (over tne years) and have made some very nice hooch at the game and have a nice roll to boot. You dont have to listen to me but I am qualified to give unsolicited advice on this topic....
I wouldnt even consider the game that you are describing. I checked out John Auston's sim table and wonging into this game with a 1-10 red spread (wonging in at +1 and higher) gives you a ror of less than 2% (a little high but workable). The ev/100 hands is about $7.50/hr which I am sure is much less than what you made dealing. + playing offers no benefits, 401K, days off or anything else. If you increase your unit size to $10 then your ev basically doubles but your ror is going to go up to the 5-10% range. I havent worked out any exact numbers but I believe these to be in the ballpark.
If you want to play full time (its very tough) but need a much bigger roll and need a better game selection than AC junk. Just my 2 cents. BTW - I play part time; play the very best games and am quite aggressive, but then again I have a very nice day job that I can fall back on after getting backed off (again and again).
good luck
wong out
Re: Welcome to the Dark Side
Posted by SB on 28-Sep-2003 01:02:03 (#4822)
Thats just it. I would Rather DEAL than play...but I got laid off in the middle of my shift 3 weeks ago!!! The Borgata has just slowed business down in all the other houses soooooo much that there were wholesale layoffs in AC This September!! NO ONE is hiring so Im out of luck till Spring!!!!My option is to park Cars for 8.00 an hour, or PLAY Blackjack!! Cant move my family so Vegas and Conecticut are out for jobs as well as playing...Im afraid AC is the only game available to me!!
Re: Welcome to the Dark Side
Posted by SB on 28-Sep-2003 01:07:36 (#4823)
Nowadays they DONT teach any dealers Jack about Counting, or even Game Protection!!! I learned to deal in 1979 and did it for 6 years before moving on, now Im back into it and I am amazed at how BADDDDD these dealers are!!! Their Game Protection is NON existent, and they couldnt spot a counter if he sat at the table using his fingers and toes to keep count!! The same goes for the Floor people!! Half the floor people are "Dual Rate"(Dealers/floor people) and switch back and forth between dealing and flooring often. They are soooo clueless its ridiculous!!!
Re: Welcome to the Dark Side
Posted by wong out on 28-Sep-2003 09:08:06 (#4824)
SB:
Understand the situation. I wasnt trying to be negative; just realistic. BJ is a very tough grind; even more so with a small roll. That being said some very successful players started of with small rolls over bet; got luck and now play black with nice rolls. Of course countless others tap out in the process.
good luck
wong out
Re: Welcome to the Dark Side
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Sep-2003 13:23:32 (#4825)
You are a star dealer then and should get picked up by another casino in no time, unless you got fired for a good reason.
tunica trip
Posted by gross on 24-Sep-2003 10:57:24 (#4806)
I'm planning another trip to Tunica the first week in October. When I was last there a few months ago Sams Town had gone to an 8 deck shoe. Is this the trend in Tunica? I prefer a 2 deck game but will play 6 deck since thats all I ever see on Indiana boats. I played mostly at the Horseshoe and Gold Strike last time although I visited them all.
Re: tunica trip
Posted by Learning to count on 24-Sep-2003 12:11:44 (#4808)
I use cbjn for this type if intell. Expect anything at the casinos. If they feel that they are getting hurt by a good game they will change it to up the vig. SO who knows. The Phantom knows!!!!! SO how about it Phantom007 whats anew in Tunica town!
Re: tunica trip
Posted by phantom007 on 26-Sep-2003 08:26:11 (#4817)
Tunica Conditions as of late Aug., 03:
Experience only GS and HS...both had $10 SD and DD, and $5 6D. Pen. to about 70% in SD and DD...did not pay any attention to 6D. No heat this trip.
Apparently Tunica is being hit by the ecomony...$3 Craps now available in slow hours.
GS Poker Room now non-smoking (sucks). Also, GS having $100K BJ tourney Nov. 7-9.
Saw an ad where Henry Tamburin (sp?) was giving a CC seminar in Tunica...does anyone besides me think it is wierd for Casino's to be sponsoring same?
phantom007
counting, voodoo, and other stuff
Posted by drew on 25-Sep-2003 10:56:16 (#4811)
I wrote a while back about counting and a face down game. The problem isnt being able to count the cards, its that the dealer doesnt turn over her hole card if everyone busts... and since its a higher limit table its usually heads up or maybe two players and it happens occasionally.
counting is not very hard for me, it just hasnt paid for the hours i spent practising. and in response to whether i have a gambling problem. i dont think so. im up a pretty goodly amount, so i dont see how that is a problem. also, i have the money to lose and have set very strict loss limits which i adhere to... plus, i like playing. the only games are riverboat games and i like ot play, i also would like to win, and yes i am looking for any possible edge. if i were to play knowing i was going to lose would i not a have problem?
ok. new questions.
Re: counting, voodoo, and other stuff
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Sep-2003 12:32:21 (#4813)
>ok. new questions. does anyone have an opinion on the book "get the edge at blackjack?"
John May. The Buzz is that he has no experience with what he is preaching, many think he is a poser. Personally, I like the book, I like John May, and think the book gives a great (though limited) glimpse into many possible legal ways to increase one's edge.
>it discusses card steering, card sequencing, shadow play, glims? can anyone explain these terms and how/if they work? all info is greatly appreciated.
The key is to find ways to increase your edge. Try the following on your own. Look at the cards on either side of an ace that is played, single deck, then do the following shuffle: riffle strip riffle. Then examine the three cards (the two on either side of the ace, and the ace). Notice anything? Do it a few times, through in some sloppyness, and see if you can predict within a couple of cards when the Ace is going to come out. See if you can predict the ace better than 1 in 13 times. If so, you have the edge.
This is the basis for some huge advantage schemes, none of which will I discuss further here.
--Mayor
Re: counting, voodoo, and other stuff
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 26-Sep-2003 13:01:16 (#4818)
Nicely put Mayor. Simple and to the point.
OK Mayor-A question
Posted by FloydX on 01-Oct-2003 23:08:07 (#4839)
OK...I've got a question.
In a hypothetical single deck game, if you know that 1 extra ace would be dealt to the player or the dealer in a given round (I'm guessing most techniques can't determine the exact location a card will be dealt), how much would that increase your edge by? I'm assuming you'd have to take into account that the dealer could be the recipient of the ace as well as the player and in that case the player would be a big disadvantage.
Re: OK Mayor-A question
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 02-Oct-2003 08:38:55 (#4842)
Go for it Mayor. This will be fun to answer.
Re: counting, voodoo, and other stuff
Posted by drew on 25-Sep-2003 14:08:26 (#4815)
thanks. i think i understand. i will try that.
Las Vegas Trip -
Posted by NewToTheGame on 29-Sep-2003 19:41:07 (#4826)
What a weekend I had...went out to Vegas for my brother's 21st bday (im only a year older, so its all good...), and just had a phenomenal time. Played 12 hours of blackjack in 2 days, plus took full advantage of Sin City's nightlife....
The Hard Rock gave both my friend and I a tremendous memory. Hard Rock is an 8-decker, H17, DAS, etc., and we were playing $15 hands. I have never seen a shoe take off so fast - i hit a running count of +27 using hi-lo with 3.5-4 decks left. Seeing this occur, we spread out to 4 hands, 2 of them playing $50 and 2 of them playing $60. We really were playing $5 units, but wanted to play the $15 table, so the count warranted the spread. Suffice to say, we ended up with 6 hands on the table, thanks to a few splits, and doubled on a bunch of those hands. We had approx. $700 on the table, with 4 hands of 20 and 2 hands of 19, with the dealer showing a 6. Now of course, my friend was pretty twisted and I was sippin on alcohol, but I kept a perfect count....I was so excited inside that I stood up and started screaming as we were doubling...we drew a crowd...it was tremendous...and then...the dealer pulled the card we REALLY needed, a f*ckin 5. You know what came next, a beautiful face card, removing all the chips from our sight into Hard Rock's chip collection...
What a nice hit that was - a moment of pure shock. Suddenly, I felt so stupid, but after winning about half of it back by the end of the shoe, I know I played that right. It just shows that as much as you think you can really beat the game, it can smack you back...and you have to be in it for the long run.
And all those CSM's, man, I gave those dealers such a look...i made it known that I wouldn't play at tables with those shufflers...
Best luck to everyone in the advantage play community - and may the cards fall well!
Re: Las Vegas Trip - and Fall
Posted by Sonny on 30-Sep-2003 10:53:34 (#4828)
It sounds like you had a great time even with the big loss! That's exactly the reason you should not overbet your bankroll. How many $700 swings do you think you could take? If your top bet is two hands of $60, you'd better expect quite a few! If you really wanted to play the $15 table, WONG IN! Better yet, stay away from the 8-deckers.
Okay, okay, enough of my nagging.
You managed to spend plenty of time at the tables. Where else did you play? Did you have any luck?
-Sonny-
Re: Las Vegas Trip - and Fall
Posted by NewToTheGame on 30-Sep-2003 18:37:59 (#4834)
[snipped by management]... I spread from $5 to 2 hands of $50 towards the end. Mandalay Bay was pretty nice, we were getting good penetration, around 1.25 decks, and the dealer was really rippin out the cards. For some reason, NY NY hasn't been generous to us, and through a +3 TC, I was getting hammered with 13's and 14's...which really blew, but what can you do, it's part of the game...Another great thing that happened at Hard Rock the day after that loss - I was playing with some of my friends, and telling them what to do. i was spreading pretty big, and I had my friends spread from 1 $5 hand to 2 hands of $50-75. Now, I made him make stupid moves at pts not to raise suspicions, but with max bets out, he was really making some $$...anyways, I look up, and I noticed another pit boss standing with a huge security guard staring at me. I knew they were on to something, and I immediately left the table and headed over to the roulette tables, where another one of my friends was playing. I called my friends at the BJ tables, and told them what I did, and they said afterwards that after 10 mins, the security guard left. Like I always hear you guys say, just walk away so I can come back another day...
The whole key is we look like typical college kids, and my friend is the perfect person b/c he can throw down 5 drinks and completely keep his composure...a little nudge under the table tells him to watch my bet and get money out when needed. We both are finance majors, and have traded equity and index options, so we have an idea of risk management. Currently I work on a convertible arb. trading desk, and he is in investment banking.
I am beginning to take this game to the next level. I have a few friends who are getting comfortable with counting, and I really want to get involved with an existing team. If anyone has suggestions, please let me know. Otherwise, I'll be in Atlantic City every 2-3 weeks, and vegas probably 4 times a year. We are going to make a bankroll of about $10-15k, and play $10 hands.
Please offer suggestions, and let me know what I should be doing. I am extremely passionate about this game, and I want to further myself as an AP. Good luck everyone!
Re: Las Vegas Trip - and Fall
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Oct-2003 16:46:22 (#4838)
Please do not post any information about casinos that have dealers that flash hole cards.
Thanks!
Re: Las Vegas Trip - and Fall
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 02-Oct-2003 08:36:37 (#4841)
"Please do not post any information about casinos that have dealers that flash hole cards."
Send info like this directly to the Mayor ONLY! smile LVHCM will probably take the board down again too. Be good!
You are your boys should do well with your plan as long as you can keep it real, back it up, and spread it out like ice.
AC
LV
Two thousand
And three
Re: Las Vegas Trip -
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Sep-2003 14:18:54 (#4833)
Thanks for the story of your bad beat.
I had a similar bad beat on my first real trip. Splitting 8's, a couple of double downs, huge count, dealer has a 6 and pulls a multi-card 21. Now, I couldn't even begin to count how many times this has happened to me.
If making a single bet of a certain size makes a difference to your bottom line, then you are betting too much. I guess you figured that out.
--Mayor
The net edge
Posted by Guy777 on 30-Sep-2003 08:01:14 (#4827)
I've read from Rob McGarvey that it is possible to gain an edge playing on-line blackjack..... Does anyone know where/how ?
Guy
Re: The net edge
Posted by Mr Pill on 30-Sep-2003 11:25:31 (#4829)
I'm sure that he will jump in here, but in a nutshell it all has to do with playing for the bonus.
Pill
Re: The net edge
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 30-Sep-2003 11:41:08 (#4830)
I'll let the other guys fill you in on this, but here is a simple version of how it works.
You depo 100. They give you 100. The house edge is around .5% against you. For each 100 you bet you expect to lose 50 cents.
Total required action is depo+bonus x10. Take 50 cents of 20 times from the 200. You can expect to walk with $190. ROI = 90%. Advantage is 100/2000 - house edge, or around 4.5%. Add a kick back from me for $50 for joining under one of my banners and you are laughing.
4.5% Edge
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 30-Sep-2003 11:44:08 (#4831)
is like getting to split A,A vs 2-7, split 9,9 vs 6, split 8,8 vs 6, and double 11 vs 2-7 and 10 3-7 all day long ;>
And sometimes we have a bigger edge.
Re: The net edge
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Sep-2003 13:06:20 (#4832)
There is a fabulous article about beating online casinos in the most recent issue of Blackjack Forum available from Arnold Snyder at www.bjfonline.com -- it will tell you everything you need to know, and a lot more!
As for our friend Rob McGarvey, he certainly knows a lot about it, but he has a vested interest (since he runs a business based on having others join online casinos through his links). I suggest you first read the entirely non-biased article in Blackjack Forum, and after you understand all that, you might choose to get the extra bonuses Rob offers (or you might not...).
--Mayor
The Scoop
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Oct-2003 10:05:45 (#4835)
"There is a fabulous article about beating online casinos in the most recent issue of Blackjack Forum available from Arnold Snyder at www.bjfonline.com -- it will tell you everything you need to know, and a lot more!"
I have ordered my copy. This will be my first copy of BJF, so I am looking forward to it. Is the finished product any better than when RGE used to print them Mayor? IYO?
The article was written by Barry Meadow, author of Blackjack Autumn. I was thinking his new book would be called Blackjack Summer, Spring or Winter, but it is about Cyber BJ.
"As for our friend Rob McGarvey, he certainly knows a lot about it, but he has a vested interest (since he runs a business based on having others join online casinos through his links). I suggest you first read the entirely non-biased article in Blackjack Forum, and after you understand all that, you might choose to get the extra bonuses Rob offers (or you might not...)"
Yes, the choice is yours. I am no genius but I do think on my feet, and where there is m
The Scoop con't
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Oct-2003 10:10:42 (#4837)
Yes, the choice is yours. I am no genius but I do think on my feet, and where there is money to be made, don't be surprised if I am about 10 people ahead of you in line! smile I will offer you my spot though, that is the difference.
I starting playing BJ at charity casinos making $6 an hour. Then I moved into the Indian casinos and started making around $30 an hour. Began to use the Hi Opt II, learned to shuffle track, then latter started tracking Aces. On the side I wrote about my experiences, opened a free info blackjack site, which I think every one of you has been to at one time or another. I read Bill Haywood's book and began playing online. When I discovered how much money could be made playing online, I couldn't keep my mouth shut, and spread the word in my newsletter. Then I thought why not put up some links to see if I can make a even more money? Most of these links offer a % of the players losses, so I didn't get into it too far since at the end of the month the casino owed me -$3422! Then I found some casinos that will give me a per head payment for each player. I already had a group of close friends that I played with online and thought I would offer them half of what the casino gives me. I think that is an honest thing to do. Some of them took me up on it and when they got their $$ they began telling their friends about it, and the other more skeptical people jumped on the band wagon. It is easier to NOT trust someone that in is to trust someone, and once again, the choice is yours. My team grows every month, and that is a good thing.
Online casinos are full of money. I go in through the front door and enjoy their sign up bonuses, try them out, and look over their affiliate program. If the aff program is do-able, I go in through the back door with my team and we load up the truck. I try to encourage my team to do something good with all of the money they are making, but that again is their choice.
Now, I haven't got my copy of BJF yet, so can't comment on it. Barry has told me that he has mentioned my site in his new book, and I thank him for that. Barry has always been great to deal with, and I will be reviewing his book as soon as it comes out. Advantage players helping each other out. What a concept!
Re: The Scoop con't
Posted by Guy777 on 08-Oct-2003 07:46:13 (#4869)
Thanks all for comments on this....
I will cirtainly visit your site Rob; what's the address please ?
Guy
Re: The net edge
Posted by Guy777 on 08-Oct-2003 07:47:01 (#4870)
Thanks Mayor, I will read the article.
Guy
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