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A highly recommended read ...
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Oct-2003 18:02:03 (#5071)
Who are all those ploppies?
Here is your answer:
http://www.harrahs.com/about_us/survey/030948_Survey.pdf
Mayor, the link won't open.??? *NM*
Posted by Stealth on 28-Oct-2003 19:53:28 (#5073)
Re: Mayor, the link won't open.???
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Oct-2003 21:14:22 (#5074)
Works fine for me -- you have to have the latest update of the Adobe Acrobat reader installed ...
Re: A highly recommended read ...
Posted by Learning to count on 29-Oct-2003 09:30:08 (#5081)
The following excerpts are from the Harrahs survey on Gamblng per the Mayor.
""...There is fun for the taking at America's casinos. That's what our business is all about.""
""...We focus on the fun because that's what we sell,""
""... many of our core beliefs-that gaming
enthusiasts are active, financially stable and civic-minded members of the community.""
""...Giving millions of Americans an opportunity to enjoy themselves at our casinos on that long-anticipated and
well-earned vacation, or that special night out on the town, is what's most rewarding about our business."" (The reward is stealing the money by offering obviously bad/rigged games)
Gary Loveman
President and Chief Executive Officer
Harrah's Entertainment, Inc.
http://www.harrahs.com/about_us/survey/030948_Survey.pdf
Wow so I guess a ploppy is someone who plays blackjack for entertainment value. If he loses the mortgage payment it's all right just so he is "financially "stable".
The Casino is providing a lie here. The lie is that people get something ("fun") from gambling. But they must pay for it dearly. People gamble for one reason. Luck and greed:The belief that they will get lucky and win. The casinos know this and have games that are geared to take. No one if they knew the truth would gamble on a sure loser. This is why advantage players who "LEGALLY" win are challenged,harrassed,kick out,brutalized, falsely charged and arrested and human rights violated. The casino will not allow anyone to win! I am surprised that good games still exist. This is what seperates a degenerate gambler from an advantage player.
You mean casinos lie?
Posted by LVBear584 on 29-Oct-2003 12:52:09 (#5089)
The Casino is providing a lie here.
I'm shocked. I thought casino managers were nice people who just wanted to give me "a pleasant, fun experience" at their properties. LOL.
Re: You mean casinos lie?
Posted by BigCowboy on 29-Oct-2003 13:55:37 (#5090)
I'm still looking through this Harrah's survey, but what I've seen cracks me up and makes me shake my head at the same time. I liked the question on whether gamblers/non-gamblers eat a healthy diet. I thought in Vegas everyone eats at the non-healthy buffet. And from my last trip there, it sure looked like most people there did not eat a healthy diet, ie they were fat and smoked like chimneys.
I'm also waiting to see if this question comes up: would you be happy if you lost $300 in 15 minutes gambling. Or would you be pissed at Harrah's if you lost $300 there?
Re: You mean casinos lie?
Posted by Learning to count on 29-Oct-2003 14:39:48 (#5091)
Nah they believe thier own bullsh!t. When the mob first ran Vegas they knew what was going on they were taking the suckers money. Today the bean counters really believ what theyare doing is legit! They are providing a lie and the suckers are sucking at the lying tite.
I didn't read the survey, but....
Posted by Alexander Mundy on 30-Oct-2003 02:38:55 (#5095)
did they mention all the pawn shops that open up around casinos to help the financially stable people have fun. I was driving around Carson City the other day and noticed a 2nd pawn shop was opening up next to a little slots only joint.
Why this survey is garbage
Posted by Ed Tice on 30-Oct-2003 02:37:26 (#5094)
We all know that casinos sell deception. Its the only place in the world where you can go and the price isn't makred. IMHO the casino should be requiretd to post the houst advantaga and expected loss on each and every game. But we know that wont happen. I have seen brochures for video poker that say "there are as many strategies as there are people." They should never be able to publish that, as there is just one strategy for most VP games.
But this survey is trash for a much worse reason. If you look at their comparison of gamblers/non-gamblers, it is implied that somehow these difference between the two groups are because of some enlightened mentality of gamblers. But lets look more closely.
The only useful thing in the entire profile is that gamblers have enough money to gamble! What a shock! Poor people don't gamble, or at least not a lot of them.
So why do gamblers have less debt than non-gamblers? In general, if you have enough extra money to gamble it away, you probably have enough to pay off your credit card. (I would HOPE that you pay off your credit card first before doing the ploppy thing.) You can continue to go down the list and conclude that all of the differences between the two groups can be attributed to the expense of gambling and the financial requirements.
I could republish this survey replacing gamber and non-gambler with yacht-owner and non-yacht-owner and it would still be accurate. In fact you could replace gambling in this report with any expensive recreational activity that requirets a lot of disposable income.
So the net result of the survery is: people with more money tend to be financially better-off; some of them gamble.
Okay lets move along.
Re: A highly recommended read ...
Posted by Learning to count on 30-Oct-2003 07:13:01 (#5096)
What the survey really says is that the common man is a sucker and he is dumb enough to accept the sin of gambling as entertainment. Gambling is a sin as is any obsession that leads to personal destruction. The Casinos dont care about whether you pay the Mortgage or not; just so they have their shot at your bank roll first. This is GREED. Greed breeds corruption as we have seen in the recent false arrests and beatings of advantage players.
One way to fight back is to boycott the casinos.This will never happen because all the suckers don't care about winning. They just want to get mentally masturbated. The other way is to learn the skills that allow for LEGAL advantage play. Become deadly at this and take the casinos money. Im basically a conservative but when it comes to the evil corporation syndrome the casino industry fits the mold. Its funny how all the super liberal celebrities embrace the casino industry but complain about the evil corporations. So I guess I will learn my trade a little more every day.
Any casino people out there wanna comment??? I know your out there. Open debate is what made this country great.
Re: A highly recommended read ...
Posted by Ed Tice on 30-Oct-2003 09:08:16 (#5097)
I agree that the casinos are evil and take people's money by selling them false hopes. But how are they different than other big corporations?
How are they different than the "nutrition" companies who try to convince people that if they take some "dietary supplement" they'll have a body like Kelly Ripka? We all know thats not true.
Or how about the music companies that market Britney to teenagers while musicians with talent can't sell enough CDs to pay the rent?
Or how about professional sports teams who will take $50 for a ticket to watch guys who mak millions of dollars a year play... or another $100 for a $5 basketball jersey that says "Iverson" on it? People who can't afford to feed their families come out for the games and "tailgate parties" every week, and the news media romanticizes it!
In the end we have a society of people who are more than happy to turn over their hard-earned money to evil corporations in exchange for a little recreation and some false-hopes! In that sense, the casinos are more honest!
If you play the million dollar slot machine you really could become a millionaire. You can take diet supplements all day and you wont have an athlete's body. And it doesn't matter how many Nike sneakers you own, if you are 160cm you aren't going to be a pro basketball player.
I don't like the casinos, in general. But I don't think they are worse than any other company.
In fairness to the casinos, skilled table game play doesn't cost that much.
If you play $5 blackjack at a full table for one hour the EV is about -$2.20 per hour (assuming AC rules and 100 hands per hour). If you get two drinks during this time and then comped for the buffet, its really not such expensive entertainment. I do think that there are people who think this way and there is nothing wrong with it.
Of course there are also the people who believe the lies and these are probably the majority of the customers.
Again my biggest complaint with casinos is that the price isn't marked. If they had to list the house advantage of each bet x the minimum bet = cost/bet for each game and, for games where strategy comes into play, give each player a copy of the correct strategy, I don't know that I'd have any objections to casinos.
Ed
Re: A highly recommended read ...
Posted by Learning to count on 30-Oct-2003 13:45:20 (#5099)
Hey Ed I am not counting kellogs corn flakes. The casino's are violating human rights by the harassment of skilled players. Thats why! Your arguments about the evil international corporate world domination well thats up for debate. I'm talking about the illegal tactics used against skilled players. The casinos are offering a game and we can beat it. What gives them the right to stop us! Hey they are the ones gambling not us. Their behavior shows that no matter what, no one should be allowed to beat them. Thats not what the law says in Nevada. These are games of chance and if the player wins thats it. They have to pay up and shut up!
Re: A highly recommended read ...
Posted by FLA Player on 30-Oct-2003 14:12:11 (#5101)
Well said LTC.... I intend on taking A LOT of the evil empire's cash this weekend!
FLA Player
Re: A highly recommended read ...
Posted by Learning to count on 30-Oct-2003 14:43:29 (#5102)
I know you will. Just dont get married!!!!!
Re: A highly recommended read ...
Posted by FLA Player on 30-Oct-2003 14:55:19 (#5103)
If I end up married I'll take you, the Mayor, and Ploppy Jim to Charlie Palmer's at the Four seasons my next Vegas trip- do you want to give me odds?
FLA Player
Re: A highly recommended read ...
Posted by Learning to count on 30-Oct-2003 17:14:26 (#5104)
Hmmmm first let me see the babe if she is a hottie then yea I'll give you odds! Just dont get drunk and walk into the little white chaple its happened to a lot smarter card counters!
Re: A highly recommended read ...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 30-Oct-2003 22:01:59 (#5105)
LTC, I really liked what you said. I'd also like to know more about the law in Nevada. Please tell me where to look, if you know . I want a copy of it. To refresh your memory, you said:
-
"Thats not what the law says in Nevada. These are games of chance and if the player wins thats it. They have to pay up and shut up!"
-
Thanks,
Stealth
Re: A highly recommended read ...
Posted by Learning to count on 31-Oct-2003 13:22:05 (#5117)
Stealth it is rare when I am challenged over my knowledge about the law. I suggest you go to a legal library in Las vegas when you are there and look up the law. It is a matter of common sense that the casino must pay a legitimae win. There are laws that allow the casino to not pay if the win was under sometype of MECAHNICAL/computer failure of a slot machine. So please don't challenge me on exact statutes I dont have time. By the way you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about the game since most of your posts are thought provoking. See you at the tables.
Re: A highly recommended read ...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Oct-2003 21:10:36 (#5127)
Thanks LTC for the info. I have a current legal challenge. I thought your knowledge might be helpful. I'll do the research when I go the the Law Library. Wasn't really challenging you. Just trying to get some info on the issue.
-
Also, like to get your opinion on my post above. Look up top. Can't remember the original name of the post. Just look up top.
Questions on Vegas
Posted by NorCalBJ on 28-Oct-2003 19:04:16 (#5072)
Hey everyone. I am headed to Vegas for a Poker and BJ weekend with a buddy. It is the first time I am going in 4 years and the first time since I have become a counter. I am looking for advice or info on the best casinos for conditions.
I should say that I am a college student with a BJ roll of only about 400 for the weekend. So I will probably only be betting red chips at a 1-4 spread. So I don't imagine heat will be an issue. Just looking for the best games with the best rules. I have found some info on the net but am not sure how up to date it is. I'm sure with all of the knowledge the people on this board have I could get a few suggestions. Thanks.
Re: Questions on Vegas
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Oct-2003 21:17:15 (#5075)
With your BR you can't play any strip game. You can probably spread 5-20 at the single deck downtown (but dont play 6/5). You really don't have enough for a 5-30 spread at double deck (the minimum necessary). You could also wong a couple of $5 shoes at the Golden Nugget downtown, play till the count goes negative, then walk, and go to $20 or 2x$15 if the count gets juicy.
Altogether, you are totally underbankrolled for even the cheapest joints in town.
Sorry.
--Mayor
Re: Questions on Vegas
Posted by Ed Tice on 29-Oct-2003 09:13:18 (#5080)
Mayor,
Why do you think that $400 is too low for a session BR? Obviously it is too low for a total bankroll, but if he's willing to risk all of it on one session (and replenish it from a real job), then isn't it mathematically the same?
I usually play red chips and don't carry much more than $500 to the casino. If it goes below $200 I'll hit the ATM for another $400. If I hit $200 again I would consider it a terrible losing streak and quit for the day.
I do this just because at my level of play (red 1:6 - 1:10), getting mugged to the tune of a few thousand would wipe out my entire EV!
Am I missing something here? It seems to me that $400 is an acceptable session bankroll for a $5 1:6 player if it is treated as just a part of a larger bankroll (and that larger bankroll really exists)
Ed
Re: Questions on Vegas
Posted by Sonny on 29-Oct-2003 18:06:53 (#5092)
> Why do you think that $400 is too low for a session BR? Obviously it is too
> low for a total bankroll, but if he's willing to risk all of it on one
> session (and replenish it from a real job), then isn't it mathematically the
> same?
>
You are right. However, most players think in terms of Total Bankrolls instead of Session Bankrolls for Risk Of Riun purposes. I also play reds ($5-$40) or silver ($2-$40). My Session Bankroll is only about $100, although I will play through a $200 loss if conditoins are good.
> Am I missing something here? It seems to me that $400 is an acceptable
> session bankroll for a $5 1:6 player if it is treated as just a part of a
> larger bankroll (and that larger bankroll really exists).
People always like to give advice about ROR because it is such and important and misunderstood aspect of advantage play. In fact, $400 is a perfectly acceptable TOTAL bankroll for a player who doesn't mind a 90% ROR. As long as you have a replenishable BR you may not mind risking it all on one session if it means possibly hitting the big score!
The level of risk that a player chooses to accept is their own decision. Nobody can tell you what the "right" amount of money is. The Mayor is just making sure that people realize what they are getting themselves into. Far too many players run off to a casino with whatever money they have, thinking that they have the advantage and can only win money. Many of those players will lose it all, then come home and post all sorts of upset messages about how "counting doesn't work" or how they were "cheated" by the dealers.
The family here at CC.Com is just trying to protect it's members. In the end, the choices you make are your own, and you must live with the consequences. We just want to make sure that everybody is making well-informed decisions.
God, I sound like my father!
-Sonny-
Thanks
Posted by NorCalBJ on 31-Oct-2003 03:18:08 (#5110)
Thanks to Mayor and Sonny and everyone else. And just to put it out there, 400 is just my bankroll for the weekend FOR BJ. It is part of a larger total bankroll that I use at my home casino, and am leaving at home. But in Vegas, we will be playing poker as well, and maybe even leaking a little to craps(we can't get sloshed when counting cards or playing hold em, so that is for craps), and hitting up some clubs. So we won't be playing BJ for the whole weekend. It will be just part of the weekend. So I am comfortable with 400, knowing the reality of what could happen to it.
But I am really thankful for the advice. I really appreciate the comment about looking out for each other. Thanks for doing that.
24 hours until Vegas!!!
Thanks all.
Just a little more advise
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Oct-2003 10:17:43 (#5113)
Stick to BJ. 'Cause everything else is just a role of the dice, (gambling). Makes no sense. When you become perfect at bj, you'll know it's the only thing to do in a casino. Unless of course they give $ or some kind of playing comp to play the other games. Or instead of playing the other games, just go and see "Crazy Girls" if it's still at the Riviera. Good stuff if you're are man. ;-)
Stealth
Stay Home!
Posted by phantom007 on 31-Oct-2003 18:39:52 (#5123)
$400. is not an adequate B/R for much more than Nickel slots, especially if you are going to try to play other games besides $1-2 BJ, and ESPECIALLY Poker, with a very high Variance/Swing potential.
IMHO.
phantom0o7.
Re: Stay Home!
Posted by Learning to count on 31-Oct-2003 19:42:39 (#5126)
Doc you crackme up..."stay home!" Thats good! You all ways make me laugh! You are direct but honest. Nickleslots hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
Take Thee To The Western.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 29-Oct-2003 07:56:47 (#5077)
Western Hotel and Casino (go in the day time only, please).
Five $1 single deck, H17, NDAS tables.
You can spread $1 to $5. It is fun to play silver, and hear the plink-plink of the dollar tokens. Plus you might actually get told "No More Blackjack"! Something fun to tell your friends.
Vegas.
Posted by eyes for 21 on 29-Oct-2003 10:15:56 (#5087)
start off at the golden gate..with the odd 5-40
you want to make some dollars you have to go a little larger than
normal
then go around the downtown area/,its fun.
"Golden" casinos
Posted by Sonny on 29-Oct-2003 18:20:16 (#5093)
>start off at the golden gate..with the odd 5-40
You can still (sometimes) find a $3 game there, and also at the Gold Sp!ke. The Gold Coast also offers a decent $3 DD game (with the right dealer). Your best bet is definately downtown.
-Sonny-
Amazing User Profiles I
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Oct-2003 10:14:58 (#5085)
User Profile: alienated
Messages Posted ( CardCounter.Com Main Message Board ): 47
Most Recent Post: 7/20/03 11:21:18 p.m.
Handles: alienated, Ted Forrester.
Ages: alienated is 30ish, Ted is pushing 60.
Educations: alienated, an F student, was expelled from school at 15 and left home to join the Young Anarchists. However, they expelled him soon after when his growing interest in shuffles led him to argue, distasteful though it was for him, that determinism was an important concept for professional gamblers. Ted, a C student with good connections, eventually received his Masters degree, having been enrolled in one of the university's less reputable PhD programs. (Provisions were in place such that the authors of exceptionally poor doctoral theses could, rather than flunking, be awarded Masters, on the proviso that their rich parents refrained from pursuing protracted law suits against the university.)
Jobs: alienated remains proudly unemployed and fiercely unemployable. He uses his dole cheques as tiolet paper and chain smokes cheap, nasty cigarettes - especially during negative counts at the non-smoking tables. Ted, in his student days, was an apologist for the capitalist state and big business before selling out to classical Marxian political economy, there being an unexpected opening at the university. Eventually, having secured his full pension, he denounced the capitalist education system and turned to high stakes roulette and craps, using his pension as his first session bankroll. (It was only many years later that he was introduced to advantage play, and dissuaded of the benefits of 'money management'.)
Interests: alienated likes keying aces and pairs, especially against shuffle machines. Ted likes living the high life.
Re: Amazing User Profiles I
Posted by alienated on 30-Oct-2003 10:52:59 (#5098)
Guilt has finally overcome me and I feel obliged to confess that Ted did not appreciate me sharing his personal details with my friends at CC.com in the way that I did. As a Gentleman he felt violated and betrayed. Normally I wouldn't have done it to him - it's not in my nature - but annoyance at his pomposity finally got the better of me.
I was hard at work at the time analyzing Shuffle Master's latest Mega Master shuffle machine employed at the local casino monopoly, and Ted hadn't done a hand's turn all day. When finally I was ready to go out and make some money, he appeared in fancy dress from behind his personal craps table to announce his intention to attend yet another Old Boys' reunion rather than the special 6:5 blackjack promotion on the new 11 deck game at our local - 4/11 pen, H17, D12 (hard) only, split only once (per shoe), NDAS, ENHC, lose all ties, and 17s lose to dealer busts - for the modern game, in other words, quite appealing. However, Ted, as so often seemed to be the case, was too intent on gallavanting round town like the social butterfly he thinks he is to exploit this latest marvellous opportunity.
Aggrieved at having to shoulder the entire keying responsibilities, as well as best-third cutting duties, NRS calculations, Thorp Ultimate for betting, Griffin's almost complete strategy tables for playing decisions, plus the insurance count, and knowing full well that Ted would still expect one half of all profits, plus interest, I consoled myself with the knowledge that the special 6:5 blackjack payoff would make all the hard work worthwhile, especially with the abundance of aces and tens to be found in 11 decks, even shorted ones, which are the custom at our local.
It was only when my optimism over the promotional opportunity proved to be ill founded that my anger finally boiled over into rage, expressed in the first instance through an anarchic array of bodily contortions, agonized convulsions and spray of expletives - mostly directed at Shuffle Master and its malfunctioning Mega Master which had motivated a sorry series of impromptu and erratic human shuffles - and in the second instance, through my arrival at home hellbent on destruction and the typing of Ted's personal details into my user profile at CC.com.
I know now, of course, that this was wrong. That no matter how many Mega Master malfunctions I was forced to endure and regardless of Ted's many foibles, I should have refrained from releasing his sensitive information on the internet.
So now I seek to make amends. Ted would like it known that, apart from occasional private games at home, he never has and never will play craps; that playing Roulette is a Gentlemanly pastime of which he would still partake were it not for the technical glitches that afflicted his device; that his PhD thesis (revised down to Master's) was not of an appalling standard, but rather that of a Gentleman who puts in about the right amount of effort and refrains from vulgar excess; that he never once read, spoke or imagined a classical Marxian thought and that this was just scurrilous rumor-mongering on my part to suggest otherwise; and, lastly, and most crucially, Ted is adament that he has never at any time, or in any place, engaged in 'money management': he has an 'accountant' to do that.
Re: Amazing User Profiles I
Posted by Learning to count on 30-Oct-2003 13:47:36 (#5100)
Woooooo Rob don't mess with alienated!
Is ZG out??? *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 31-Oct-2003 18:33:50 (#5121)
Re: Is ZG out???
Posted by The Mayor on 31-Oct-2003 19:11:27 (#5124)
Haven't heard or seen ZG. He got 18 months in November of 2002, which he tried to reduce to 12 months by going through some drug rehab courses. If that's the case, the best he will do is November 2003.
THANKS....just seemed like....
Posted by phantom007 on 31-Oct-2003 19:20:44 (#5125)
....ZG's "Ramblings" when I read Mr. McGarvey's post.
phantom007.
Just fooling around
Posted by alienated on 31-Oct-2003 23:36:37 (#5131)
I'm afraid this is just a case of (my weak) humor not translating very well over the internet. Rob was just quoting my "user profile", which was another of my poor attempts at humor. In the finest traditions of blackjack anonymity my user profiles are intended to create as false an impression of myself as possible. Of course, I'm really a 45 year old businessman in a pin stripe suit. ;-) In my response to Rob I was just trying to stretch the joke a little further. But like most of my 'humorous' efforts, it seems to have fallen rather flat. ;-) Some of my earlier posts have fallen to a similar fate, but I never seem to learn. I once wrote a post entitled "A Marxian Theory of Capitalist Teaming", or some such, over at bjmath.com, which was received with polite silence. I put it down to the math being insufficiently technical to warrant comment.
I would have jumped in and cleared this matter up earlier, but I wasn't sure if the other posts in this thread were also intended as jokes, and didn't want to appear like the square businessman I really am by being seen to take a joke seriously!
Regards all,
alienated/Ted
Re: Just fooling around
Posted by Learning to count on 01-Nov-2003 06:48:19 (#5133)
I wondered about the post my self at first but then after reading some of your work/posts I figured you were being intellectually humorous. The profile is strange but does give an insite to your humor and intelligence. Keep up the excellent work/posts. See ya on Green Chip!
how could it possibly be ...
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Nov-2003 09:29:09 (#5136)
When I read your post, it was OTTCO (obvious to the casual observer) that your brain had once again split in two, and you were having a conversation with and against yourself. I quite enjoyed it, and encourage more such dialogs between your alter egos, which clearly respect each other about as much as Micheal Moore and George Bush.
Next topic, is it better to be left or right handed?
--Mayor
:-)
Posted by alienated on 01-Nov-2003 16:50:21 (#5144)
I deny it, but Ted thinks you have a point. :-)
Chumash RIP
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Oct-2003 23:09:06 (#5106)
I got a permanent tresspass from the Chumash Casino tonight. God Bless them.
Details in next months podium.
--Mayor
Re: Chumash RIP
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 31-Oct-2003 00:00:35 (#5107)
Your dynamic with the Chumash was an ongoing point of interest on this website. How horrible that you should be banned. On one of your podiums you encouraged (your students? [et al?]) not to approach the Chumach unless they learned a counting system.
How far of a drive from Vegas is this place, and how much do the nearby hotels cost?
-Felix
Re: Chumash RIP
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Oct-2003 00:15:43 (#5108)
It's a bummer when you're too good. I think the rest of us will have to dive-bomb 'em now. ;-)
Stealth
The story ...
Posted by The Mayor on 31-Oct-2003 10:06:29 (#5112)
http://www.cardcounter.com/podiums/podium_11_2003.htm
It was the Stud
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 31-Oct-2003 10:41:56 (#5114)
It was the Caribbean Stud.
Why in his right mind would a "blackjack professional" and evil cardcounter scum, ever sit down at a CS game?
When he has the advantage, stupid.
Visions of paying off that $100,000 royal flush jackpot "flashed" in management's pea brain, when they got the call that you wanted to play.
I don't see why you couldn't go back next week and play some more poker.
The Mission...
Posted by Sonny on 31-Oct-2003 11:21:22 (#5115)
> The Chumash Casino is worth beating big time if you have the chance and
> opportunity to do so. If you manage to take a bundle, then just maybe you can
> send them an anonymous postcard from a fourth corner of the planet, saying
> that "The Mayor" got you again.
That would be great! Think of all the "calling cards" they would get in the mail!
I would love to "visit" them, if I thought that I could get a spot at a table. I've been there before but they always seem to be packed. Maybe a bunch of us should go and take over a table for ourselves.
-Sonny-
why ask them if u can play
Posted by eyes for 21 on 31-Oct-2003 16:07:37 (#5118)
thats like asking a bank before you plan to rob it
"do you mind if I rob you"
Re: The Mission...
Posted by Victoria on 31-Oct-2003 16:28:47 (#5119)
Mayor
I guess you will be glad to know that in the past a friend of mine and myself have beaten the Chumash for a nice sum. Never got a near barring as far as I know, but my friend has noticed that a couple of the floor men will tell the dealers to cut deep when he sits down.
I find the place very unfriendly and service no existant but it is not just to CC's, it is to everyone.
Question: Have you ever seen them bring out new decks there and place them on the tables, like Vegas, where the players can actually see that all the cards are there??
Don't like the place but will occassionly go there and take some money away generally.
Re: The Mission...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 01-Nov-2003 00:55:12 (#5132)
Sonny, maybe what you said is what we should be doing:
-
-
Maybe a bunch of us should go and take over a table for ourselves. (Sonny)
-
-
If we could all develop a strong loyalty to each other, we could make the casinos think a whole lot more seriously about any decision they're contemplating to bar one of us. None-the-less, if they do zap one of us, the rest of us should dive-bomb the bastards. We hit 'em for as much money as possible. Then after a while, we send them letters letting them know how much money they really lost (whether it's true or not) as a result of messing with one of our teem buddies. + tell 'em, WE'LL BE BACK for more again sooner or later. This'll drive 'em nutts. ;-)))))))
Stealth
A Question to Ponder - who has an answer?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Oct-2003 00:18:54 (#5109)
Which of our favorite casinos can do any of the following and most likely not have to be accountable for their actions?
1 Rape their female employees.
2 Poison their patrons at the buffet.
3 Sexual harassment.
4 Pilfer through an old lady's purse.
5 Physically assault anyone they don't like.
6 Smash a patron's car.
7 Fire an employee because she won't put out.
8 Run a sideline prostitution business.
9 Force a patron to leave the premises because they don't like their race, religion or skin color.
10 Have surveillance cameras in their restrooms.
11 Allow patrons to free-fall to their death in an elevator accident resulting from poor maintenance.
12 + all the other usual stuff too.
This is not a joke. You may answer in the form of a question.
Stealth
I Sure Hope None of Them!
Posted by SammyBoy on 31-Oct-2003 08:37:45 (#5111)
This surely happened when the casinos were run by the mafia, but hopefully not today in the USA.
Don't give up yet - stay tuned 4 more *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Oct-2003 11:59:07 (#5116)
CAMERAS in the Restrooms????.......
Posted by phantom007 on 31-Oct-2003 18:28:11 (#5120)
Do YOU think they say me playing with my...........CHIPS?
phantom007.
Casino Drama
Posted by Down with Chumash on 31-Oct-2003 18:37:15 (#5122)
It seems like all casinos I know of have major drama going on. Married floorpeople sleeping with dealers... drug deals going on... unbelievable sexual harassment. Awhile back I heard a floor guy say to a dealer... "I was thinking of you today when trying to figure out what kind of dog to get my kids from the pound." Of course... he was just joking but I don't think that would fly in other professional environments. They should have a reality show based on a casino. There's certainly enough cameras around!
A Question to Ponder - Do I have an answer?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Oct-2003 22:05:57 (#5129)
I have concluded that nobody really has an answer to my original post at the top of this thread. Even though most you who read these messages are knowledgeable veterans as to the way casinos work in the real world, you're a little baffled and puzzled by what I said. Therefore, I can only assume that the general public is really in the dark about how there rights are subject to a total compromise. In my first post, I said the following:
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Which of our favorite casinos can do any of the following and most likely not have to be accountable for their actions?
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1 Rape their female employees.
2 Poison their patrons at the buffet.
3 Sexual harassment.
4 Pilfer through an old lady's purse.
5 Physically assault anyone they don't like.
6 Smash a patron's car.
7 Fire an employee because she won't put out.
8 Run a sideline prostitution business.
9 Force a patron to leave the premises because they don't like their race, religion or skin color.
10 Have surveillance cameras in their restrooms.
11 Allow patrons to free-fall to their death in an elevator accident resulting from poor maintenance.
12 + all the other usual stuff too.
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Now, could it just be that every Native American Casino has the ability to allow any of the above (1 - 12) to occur? Why not???? Responses and dialogue encouraged.
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Stealth
Re: A Question to Ponder - Do I have an answer?
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Nov-2003 08:51:42 (#5134)
The thought that I was in a foreign nation definitely crossed my mind when I was being escorted off premisis. That my officer identified himself as a memeber of that nation made it more unsettling. However, these nations do not have unlimted rights to break federal/state laws and escape prosecution, particularly criminal law. As for civil matters, I agree that there are some real difficulties to pursuing cases -- I contacted the State's Attorney General about my rights in this case, and they are essentially non-existent outside of the tribe's own courts.
--Mayor
Re: A Question to Ponder - Do I have an answer?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 01-Nov-2003 12:34:51 (#5140)
So for instance, let's say our wife gets rapped by the casino mngr! ???? .......................................... My point is: WHO YA GONNA CALL, Ghost Busters???? .................... Think about it, "Sovereign Immunity" ??????? The next closest thing to a license to kill. Amazing isn't it?
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Calling LTC,......... HELP! :-o
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Stealth
Re: A Question to Ponder - Do I have an answer?
Posted by Learning to count on 01-Nov-2003 14:34:35 (#5143)
Your are an intelligent AP Stealth. Your posts are interesting but your getting on my nerves. I dont play on the reservations for one reason. They have a limited Sovereign Immunity. It is not total immunity the government can still go in if there are problems. This means they can make up the rules as they go along. Plain and simple it is possible to cheat the public there. So I dont play. Clear and simple. So save up your bottles and go to Vegas.
Sovereign Indian Territory
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 02-Nov-2003 23:35:27 (#5150)
Thanks LTC for your input. I don't mean to buzz your nerves. I know I often see things in a different perspective than most people. I'm not such a great writer either. I do ask that you hang in there with me though, 'cause we all want and need to learn. I have also noticed that you are quite "in the know" with law. I'm sure some of my posts will be challenging for you along with most other legal scholars.
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With regard to the issues in this thread, I do however think that our beloved U. S. Dept. of Interior should require all tribes with a casino to post a sign at the entrance, which would disclose essentially the rules and laws that the public are subject to upon entering, because they don't even have a clue. They should at least have a right to know, THEY AIN'T IN KANSAS ANYMORE!
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Stealth
Re: Sovereign Indian Territory
Posted by Learning to count on 03-Nov-2003 10:23:21 (#5153)
"Sovereign Indian Territory"
Advantage Player: A person who gambles at a recognized or known advantage. Card Counting is a skill a AP can use at the game of Black Jack to recognize advantageous times during the game to make lucrative bets.
So why would you play at indian casinos when you know they have a practically free hand to do what they want. They have no governing gambling commission to keep them on the high road. As an Card Counter or Advantage Player this is dangerous territory. With all the problems at state comissioned casinos around the country. Why would you enter a casino that could have a negative EV on your life! I know there have been advantages at several indian casinos and many AP's have made a lot of money there. Just be careful when you go there. I won't play there its like the old green felt jungle days in Vegas. JMHO!
Re: Casino Drama
Posted by Victoria on 01-Nov-2003 14:25:23 (#5141)
To Down with Chumash
Since I think the folks at the Chumash really need another casino nearby for competition so that they might treat their customers halfway decently, I was wondering why you picked your name?
All are abused in that place, the only difference is that a CC can beat their game often enough.
A Question about Fiesta Rancho
Posted by the countess on 31-Oct-2003 21:34:01 (#5128)
Has anybody played their single deck there? If so, how are the conditions?
On being back roomed
Posted by Greasy John on 31-Oct-2003 23:06:47 (#5130)
From what I've read on this and other post sites lately, I'm wondering: If it's illegal to handcuff a patron when he objects to being escorted to the back room, and if it's illegal to take someone's picture without their consent and detained without just cause, then why aren't lawsuits against casinos more successful? I can only guess that the casinos might say, for instance in a hand-held game, that a patron's handling of the cards looked like "work" was being put into them. This could be used to "justify" being back roomed. As regards the casino's taking your picture, I can see how this is an intimidation tactic, but aside from this, is the picture-taking of any real value to the casino? The eye could certainly get a good frontal zoom on a patron during the game or in the casino.
Suppose the casino wants to back room you and you say, "I don't have to show you and ID. If you're going to arrest me call Gaming and Metro, otherwise I'm going to leave now." There's a real Catch 22 here, for you might be successful in "walking" but you've been surely had as a serious card counter.
If, for example, someone plays under their real name and they go voluntarily to the back room and allow their picture to be taken, wouldn't they be less likely to show up in Griffin? (Of course this patron would deny everything.) We all dislike the tactics which some casions use, and I know there's a desire to stand up to illegal and intimidating tactics, but what we do about it is a real dilemma.
Greasy John
Re: On being back roomed
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Nov-2003 09:26:01 (#5135)
> I'm wondering: If it's illegal to handcuff a patron when he objects to being escorted to the back room, and if it's illegal to take someone's picture without their consent and detained without just cause, then why aren't lawsuits against casinos more successful?
The lawsuits are successful. Bob Nersesian, a lawyer in Las Vegas, is pursuing a number of cases on behalf of advantage players, right now in Las Vegas. Based on his history, there seems to be little doubt about the conclusion to these cases. The only matter in doubt is how much the casino will pay in damages, and that does not always seem to be satisfactory.
>I can only guess that the casinos might say, for instance in a hand-held game, that a patron's handling of the cards looked like "work" was being put into them. This could be used to "justify" being back roomed.
If you suspect the action, you have to have proof that you can later present that establish your suspicions. Maybe LTC will comment more on this.
> is the picture-taking of any real value to the casino?
Yes, they can post the photo in various ways, public and private, to make your life a bit tougher the next time you enter a casino.
> Suppose the casino wants to back room you and you say, "I don't have to show you and ID. If you're going to arrest me call Gaming and Metro, otherwise I'm going to leave now." There's a real Catch 22 here, for you might be successful in "walking" but you've been surely had as a serious card counter.
You were already made as a counter, or else you wouldn't be in the back room to begin with. That's already a done deal. The only thing that matters here is that your civil rights are being violated. And, if you fight these guys, you are not going to make things any easier. Cooperate while it is happening, fight the good fight later.
> If, for example, someone plays under their real name and they go voluntarily to the back room and allow their picture to be taken, wouldn't they be less likely to show up in Griffin? (
Do you live on Jupiter? I don't know what could possibly make you think that casinos will be nice to you if you are nice to them.
Thanks for opening up the topic,
-Mayor
Re: On being back roomed "REVISED"
Posted by Learning to count on 01-Nov-2003 11:15:23 (#5137)
""I can only guess that the casinos might say, for instance in a hand-held game, that a patron's handling of the cards looked like "work" was being put into them. This could be used to "justify" being back roomed.""
First of all the casino has a basic right to hold and detain a suspected criminal. This right extends to them the right to use enough force to detain the suspect to wit: Handcuffs. This is an extension of police powers which is similar to the right for a store security person to catch and hold a shoplifter then they have to call for a police officer to make a official report and arrest.
The Problem in vegas is that the security people are possibly never taught that with this police power you have to have "PROBABLE CAUSE". Probable Cause is defined as the "BELIEF" that a crime has occurred, is occuring, or is about to occurr. This "BELIEF" intails a legal, provable investigation and or survelliance. By doing an investigation you are gathering evidence showing the proof that a state gaming law has been violated. Beating the casino/winning is not a crime.
To do an investigation is obviously a difficult thing for Casino security to do. It is obvious that either the casino's are misusing these laws and or they are stupid. Since greed is involved I think that corruption has a lot to do with it. Thus the misuse of these laws is what is occurring here.
In conclusion the proper use of this power is for stopping criminal acts not for harrassing skilled advantage players who have not violated any state statutes. The harrassment/detainment of a legal winner, lucky or skilled, is "WRONG"! It is also illegal.
As far as being taken into custody by security people. Dont fight, dont show any physical aggression. Would you trust a eight dollar an hour gorilla who carries a 357 magnum and a whole host of painful weapons (chemical and electric) not to kill you if you resisted?!!!!! Hey look what those redneck cops did to Rodney K. and he was under arrest for a legitimate crime.
Do ask for the police or gaming law enforcement. Refuse to show non law enforcement your ID. Only show law enforcement your ID if you are under arrest. Law Enforcement can ask any one to ID them selves for any reason; but short of an arrest a citizen does not have to do so. I ID my self to law enforcement only. This in the spirit of cooperation; they being professional POLICE/LAW ENFORCEMENT. The casinos can go F>ck themselves!
Oh and don't answer any questions that the casino gorrilas may ask you. Advise them they have violated your civil rights and they are violating state and federal laws. Even better clam-up dont say a thing. Silence is golden. Even if you do get arrested. You have the right to consult with an attorney before and during any questioning by law enforcement. You have the right to have attorney present during questioning. If you are arrested give your ID info to the police only!
Advise the security casino gorrilas that you are leaving and walk away. If they corral you dont fight dont touch them. Dont make any hand movements so they can say you attacked them. Stay in obvious public areas in full view of cameras. If you get out side leave quickly/run! Cash your chips later. Send some one to pickup your car later. Stay away from that casino for 3 to 6 months or don't play there at all. If you are blocked and can't leave stay calm and don't move. If you want to challenge them sit on the floor and cover your head and say "please don't beat; me please don't hurt me. I know my rights. I have done nothing wrong". If they grab you and floor you . Let them. Don't resist. If they hand cuff you thats good then. If they have no case they have just violated the law. Illegal detainment. You can choose to then get up and walk into the back room or better let em carry you. In the sixties many were beaten illegally by the police and national guard when using this non violent tactic. Hey Ghandi took his country back from the British through peaceful resistance.
Witnesses,have witnesses. They can call the police for you and a Lawyer! I am carrying a small digital recorder which I announce to the security gorillas that I am taping the incident. They will watch what they say. If they take it that is theft.
LIsten this is my advice. Many other AP's are aggressive and choose other ways to handle the situation. This my humble suggestion/oppinion. If you don't aggree then take what action you are comfortable with and good luck. The money is there you just gotta have big balls to take it!
Re: On being back roomed
Posted by Learning to count on 01-Nov-2003 11:26:30 (#5138)
""I can only guess that the casinos might say, for instance in a hand-held game, that a patron's handling of the cards looked like "work" was being put into them. This could be used to "justify" being back roomed.""
Sorry I did not fully answer your question. In a hand held game. I follow the rules. Hold the cards with one hand and only hold them for a brief moment. I show my hands palms up frequently fingers spread so the eye can see them clearly. This way they cant review the film and say I was hiding my palms or I was holding something between fingers. Why give them a reason. The funniest thing I ever saw was some old ding bats holding the cards as if they were playing poker! Ploppies !
This one belongs in the "Best Posts"
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Nov-2003 11:51:44 (#5139)
Great post LTC! Thanks for sharing your expertise with us.
-Mayor
Re: This one belongs in the "Best Posts"
Posted by FLA Player on 03-Nov-2003 14:11:46 (#5158)
Very informative....great post as always LTC- one thing that wasn't brought up (I haven't been backroomed yet in my short AP career, knock on wood)- the best advice is to NOT get pegged as a counter in the first place, in short work on your COVER!!!! You need to have an act, don't get noticed (due to bet spread, wonging in, etc) and don't overstay your welcome.
And don't get me wrong, if I get handcuffed I'm calling Bob Nersesian as soon as I hit the street (his number is programmed in my cell phone)
FLA Player
Re: On being back roomed
Posted by Ed Tice on 03-Nov-2003 14:53:56 (#5162)
Just my $0.02. Although we all hate to have our civil rights violated, one sure way to avoid it is to avoid being pegged as an AP. Remember that a casino is a business. The decision makers arent always competent, but its their job to look at the bottom line.
If we start winning lawsuits then the casinos will change their tactics. But if thez decide that the cost of AP is too high, they will take other steps against us, even if it costs them ploppy business. (Its somebodys job to work out these types of things for the casino). This hurts us in the long run.
We are doing ourselves a favor if we stay off the radar screen as much as possible. Its probably very hard to measure the exact costs of AP, so somebody has to estimate it. If that person is always hearing about barrings, backroomings, and law suits, they might make a risk averse (possibly not smart) decision thats not good for everybodz.
The casino has quite a few weapons at its disposal, none of which we want to see brandished. (including more cheating shuffling machines... yes we all know how bad they are for everybody, but somebody not getting a balanced picture may draw bad conclusions).
I just think that escalation is not helping anybody. I realize that the casinos are doing the escalating, but perhaps there is something (no I dont have any ideas in mind) that we can do to diffuse the heightening tensions instead of turning them uglier?
Like dont get made as a counter!
Ed
Re: On being back roomed
Posted by Learning to count on 03-Nov-2003 16:49:24 (#5167)
"A Good Act"
What is a good act. Its playing the best you can and being aggressive. Cover bet play is hard on the EV. What are you going to do lose a string of minimum bets and think that the eye is going to say your a chump. All the while stashng the eight or nine grand you have won down your pants. Dont worry guys believe it or not they watch where the black chips go. Cover play for red and even green is worthless and will hurt the small edge win you have. AT those levels your EV gets hit hard when you purposely throw the hand and lose the bet. The casino is looking for winners buddy and not losers. Stashing chips is an art and should be avoided when playing a short time. I agree with LV BEAR sometimes you have to damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead. The ploppies, who cares, they are a$$-wholes any way. The best cover is to wong in and out and keep aware of the suits and the PITBOSS vulture who is hovering over head. I dont have all the answers but I do try and make my money and then RUN! Thats Blackjack. A lot of that cover sh!t is bull and macho bragging after a lucky run. Every one wants to feel like they fooled the big bad evil casino and be James Bond. The Pros are better at finding the advantage and striking fast befor the evil monster in the sky swoops down on them. Hey Just my Ignorant and humble oppinion. LTC
Bryce Carlson responds - re: AOII issues
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 01-Nov-2003 14:31:18 (#5142)
Thought I should bring this over from BJ21: (Stealth)
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Bryce Carlson! - Al said this ? is for U
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Sir Bryce:
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I've had your book for about 2 years. The AOII works very well. I use it primarily on 6 deckers though. First upon entering the good ol' First Interstate Casinos of the World, I usually chomp a bite out of a SD or DD until the ploppy crowd fills the tables. Then I head over to the old slow grinder (6D). I feel as though it puts me into my comfort zone. Makes $ too but takes a lot of endurance, dedication, persistance and patience.
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I notice that your advanced play indices tables are for SD or DD. Do you have any advanced play strategy table indices other than for Basic S i.e. + 6 TC and higher, especially mathematically formulated for Multi-D play?
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Additionally, I don't fully understand the betting ramps, i.e. units bet during TC + side valuations, (tables 5.6 & 7.10). I've been increasing 1.5 units for every +1 TC to a max spread of approx 15 to 1. It's working but I know it's not exact. Are there no simple bet ramp numbers to memorize? Please advise.
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Yours Truly:
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Stealth Bomber
In Response To: Bryce Carlson! - Al said this ? is for U (Stealth Bomber)
Hi Stealth,
Thanks for your questions. And thanks for the lofty title, even though I don't think the Crown is Knighting blackjack pros for slaying casinos just yet. Not yet ;-).
Anyway, as to your questions, the playing indices in BJFB for the Advanced Omega II System are designed to be used in 1-, 2- and multiple-deck games. They represent a weighted average of the exact deck-specific indices, with a bias in favor of the 2-deck game. Nevertheless, if you read the footnotes, you will see that there are several instances where specific changes are recommended based on the number of decks in play. However, with the exception of these footnoted plays, the potential gain from optimizing the playing indices for the number of decks in play is nominal. For example, the win rates of the playing indices published in BJFB have been compared by simulation to those generated by Karel Janecek's SBA for 1-, 2- and 6-deck games, and the results show little to no difference. For all practical purposes they are equal. So, with the exception of the plays footnoted in BJFB, I wouldn't worry about learning separate playing indices for different numbers of decks in play.
Now, as to the betting ramps suggested in BJFB, they are, indeed, somewhat conservative from a purely mathematical standpoint, but they are designed to give you the maximum bet spread possible without much risk of being detected as a counter. They work. They'll definitely get the money. And, overall, I use them in my own play. Of course, there are (rare) occasions when camouflage is not much of a consideration and I bet significantly more aggressively. Within the constraints of sound Kelly-style betting, personal philosophy plays a role in betting style. I prefer to maximize longevity, so I forgo some potential short-term profits in order to be able to stay in business for the long haul. But that's me. Some pros prefer to go for the jugular every time and worry about tomorrow when it comes. I personally do not think that is the way to maximize lifetime winnings.
Hope this helps.
Good luck!
Bryce Carlson
Re: Bryce Carlson responds - re: AOII issues
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-Nov-2003 09:28:26 (#5151)
Thanks for sharing that info! Bryce is one of the few player/writers that doesn't do much posting. This tid bit is bittersweet.
Thanks again
Rob
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#5145)
Re: Maths, stats, computers... the root of all evil ! (the cubic root of course)
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Nov-2003 19:19:50 (#5146)
> First, I would like to know from informaticians, what computer langage should I know to become a better gambler... (I currently made a program in C++ and a sheet in Excel to calculate risk of ruins and other things like that.)
I use C, C++, Java, and Excel. Who knows... I think C++ and Excel are good enough for everything.
> Secondly, I would like to know the branches of maths and stats that I should study in order to have a better understanding of all aspects of gambling.
Probability, Statistics, Combinatorics, more Statistics.
> Thirdly, I would like to know, if the maths and the stats in the domain of gambling are similary to those of actuary... If they are, I will consider studying too for actuary exams.
Yes, studying for actuarial sciences is more than adequate.
--Mayor
Re: Maths, stats, computers...
Posted by Sonny on 01-Nov-2003 21:34:21 (#5148)
The course that I would recommend is as follows (in this order):
The Mathematics of Games and Gambling, by Edward Packell - A great introduction.
Theory of Blackjack, by Peter Griffin - The masterwork. You'll find yourself constantly going back to it.
Theory of Gambling and Statistical Logic, by Richard Epstien - The most in-depth coverage of EVERY game you could imagine.
As far as programming, I use Turbo Pascal myself but I will rewrite certain routines in assembler for speed. In reality, any compiled language that gets the job done will work fine. C++ is probably best since it is the most popular language among programmers.
-Sonny-
Ploopy's a woman's prespective
Posted by Victoria on 03-Nov-2003 12:04:19 (#5154)
A girlfriend and I went to our local Indian Casino the other day. At this place I generally come out at $50 at the beginning of a shoe, go down to $25 if I am playing a negative and up my bet to as high as $250 if things are going well.
One thing that may never happen to the male members here is whenever I deviate from basic strategy because of the count, I get helpful suggestions from a ploppy or two. Helpful guys who want to teach this young lady the ins and outs of the game. These guys might actually be creating pretty good cover because the pit types hear a few comments when I deviate but perhaps if they ran a counter program on me it would be different. This time it was the guy to my right as I was at third base. I am up a bunch, he is loosing, the count is high and on my $200 bet I get a 16, the dealer a K. Since there is no surrender, I stick and he tells me that if I am going to bet that much I should read a book. I say I am scared of busting and the dealer turns a four, then a two (I know he wanted to say something about my getting 18 but there was no time) and then she pulled a seven. He shakes his head and I tell him about female intuition especially since the dealer would have hit 21 had I hit.
Later in bad shoe, TC-4, I have 9 against dealer 4 and just hit instead of doubling. He shakes his head as I get a 2 and then a 7, so I explain to him about Zen Blackjack and that you must become one with the shoe. It is never the flow, always the shoe.
Of course not every non BS move I made worked so he had his moments but after staying on another 16 and a 15 (lost one of them) he finally left the table and had the nerve to tell me that I was ruining the "flow of the cards" for everyone else. I know he lost and felt bad about that but I was up about 4,000 and just had to tell him that I was not playing for everyone else. In the real world I am an engineer so I believe in the math not the flow, but I like the image of being at one with the shoe.
Bravo, Bravo, A dangerous woman for sure!
Posted by Learning to count on 03-Nov-2003 13:22:08 (#5156)
This is an excellent ploppy story. Good work Vicky!!!!!!!
Re: Ploopy's a woman's prespective
Posted by FLA Player on 03-Nov-2003 14:00:04 (#5157)
Great story Victoria.... keep it up and keep contributing to the site- just curious, how many indicies have you learned (+6 to -6?) and what count do you use? Any wonging in and out?
FLA Player
Re: Ploopy's a woman's prespective
Posted by Victoria on 03-Nov-2003 16:00:16 (#5164)
I use the HiLo, though I learned OmegaII, I have a very simple but important problem with it. For whatever reason I can use high low, count correctly and still maintain the talkitive girl type image. That is the biggest part of my cover in my opinion but using something else and I feel like they will see how hard I am working. Sacrificing a little to feel comfortable, be natural and actually enjoy yourself is something worth it to me. I also so get along well with most dealers, pit types and even some of those helpful ploppys.
I wong out often, go speak to a friend at a machine or another table, hit the ladies room or sometimes just take a break. Wong in only occassionly.
Anyway, the story is great because I had a real good session but like everyone else I have had a ton of sessions where I lost big and the ploppys just knew they were right.
To the Mayor
Posted by Victoria on 03-Nov-2003 16:35:23 (#5166)
I am new to the board but read one of your earlier posts and forgot to mention in this thread something you might enjoy. It all happened at that place I do not like. The Chumash.
Re: To the Mayor
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Nov-2003 17:42:44 (#5168)
Cool ... drop them a postcard from somewhere on your travels and mention that you beat them big, care of "The Mayor" 8-)
Thanks for your story, I appreciate the strength of who you are.
--Mayor
Super story V-
Posted by eyes for 21 on 03-Nov-2003 17:51:24 (#5169)
These crazy lousy players are a joke for sure.
I had some dope yelling because he said I was cutting
the cards near the top, and said I should always cut
near the bottom, never the top. He continued to lose and blame
me for his loses.
Re: Ploopy's a woman's prespective
Posted by Ed Tice on 03-Nov-2003 14:40:02 (#5161)
Nice going!
This makes me curious what you other guys and gals do in this situation? If a ploppy corrects me on some things (stand 16 v. 10), I usually claim to be chicken or something and say sorry.
But Ive had dealers ignore my gesture and ask if I am sure about a particular play. If its a double I might say to them, oh well I already put the money give it to me now. But it its something like hitting 13 vs. 3 in a negative count, I usually thank them for the info and decline the hit, because I just dont want the attention. But I know I am losing significant EV in this.
I think I am overly concerned about taking heat, since I like to be welcome in the casino, so I play very conservatively. But if I were professional, maybe Id be more aggressive.
Ed
Worthless dealer advice
Posted by LVBear584 on 03-Nov-2003 15:42:17 (#5163)
But it its something like hitting 13 vs. 3 in a negative count, I usually thank them for the info and decline the hit, because I just dont want the attention.
Ignore dealer advice. It is frequently wrong. Forgot about what the dealer thinks of you. He/she probably hates you anyway.
Ignoring dealer advice won't get any extra attention.
The more you play, the more callous you will become about the reactions and feelings of others in the casino. That's a good thing, because then you won't waste time or energy worrying about anyone but yourself, which is the way it should be in the casino.
Great Advice!
Posted by SammyBoy on 03-Nov-2003 16:24:43 (#5165)
Most of the places I play Ploppies get mad even if you do play basic strategy. I no longer worry about them because the truth is they will get mad when they are losing no matter what you do. Make the right play.
Re: Worthless dealer advice
Posted by Ed Tice on 04-Nov-2003 02:48:11 (#5175)
I already dont care what others at the table think about me.
I play for low stakes so maybe thats why I think differently than all of the high-rollers here. Comps are a big part of my EV so if I get negative attention from the pit, it seems that it is costing me real EV.
I do want to be welcome in the casinos because it is much more fun to play that way. If I was a pro, I guess I wouldn't care.
It always seems to be that the dealer/pit boss are considered the enemies by the counters. And I guess at high stakes they are.
I once was playing conservatively in a shoe game with a 1:8 spread ($10 to $80). Not drawing any attention. Had a $50 bet on the table (barber pole stack of reds nonetheless). Won a hand and the count went up. I said "I'm doing well, I ought to just press that up." The dealer who had been very frietndly to me said "You dont want to do that, because I'd have ot make a checks play call." I decided to press only half of it for $75 and tossed him a $5 tip.
I really dont know what he was thinking so I tend to assume the best in people and judged that he knew exactly what I was doing and was just helping me out.
So I guess when I hear a dealer (who knows correct BS, amazing the number who dont) say "are you sure you want to do that" as he ignores me gesture for a BS deviation I tend to think that maybe he knows exactly what I'm doing and doesn't want me to make the deviation because he might be required to draw attention to it. Or perhaps he knows I am counting and doesn't understand that counters deviate from BS and is trying to help me. Or perhaps he knows nothing and is just trying to help me. But when I find somebody who I think might know what I'm doing and doesn't care, I sure dont want to rock the boat.
Maybe I'm wrong here, though. Or maybe it just doesn't happen when you are using other than reds.
Ed
Good Point
Posted by Frozen thanks to Jacob the Jeweler on 04-Nov-2003 05:03:13 (#5177)
In my younger days, I think I speant half the time fuming over misinformation being passed around the tables. Now, I am too busy worrying about the important stuff like how stupid I can look.
Re: Ploopy's a woman's prespective
Posted by Radar on 03-Nov-2003 19:53:33 (#5173)
Remind me to keep my mouth shut when I sit next to you...<g>
Re: Ploopy's a woman's prespective
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Nov-2003 07:24:40 (#5179)
Maybe if you learned the game your self you would keep quiet!
Opppss
Posted by Radar on 05-Nov-2003 20:38:04 (#5241)
Please look at my response to Victoria...my post came out, not quite like I intended...
(I can only hope that I learn to handle myself HALF as well as she does)
Re: Ploopy's a woman's prespective
Posted by Victoria on 04-Nov-2003 15:29:54 (#5188)
Radar, No I like to talk at the table. I just get tired sometimes of you helpful guys (that do not know what you are talking about) and really do not like another playing verbally pointing out that I am deviating from BS. So we can talk about the game, casinos, how the session is going (I lie) but please do not cross the line. Hey, talking plenty and counting at the same time I think is my cover.
Re: Ploopy's a woman's prespective
Posted by Radar on 05-Nov-2003 20:35:22 (#5240)
OOOppps, you know how when you write things in emails it comes across not quite exactly as you intended? Well, that's what happened here. I was trying to be a little faciteous and should have put <g> next to my post...
I applaud you...and, yes, remind me NOT to sit next to you <g>....
Re: Ploopy's a woman's prespective *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Nov-2003 09:39:31 (#5257)
"Hey, talking plenty and counting at the same time I think is my cover."
Smart. I like to get involved with the other players to make it look like I am just out for some action.
"Oh no! You got murdered guy! The dealer wants you off this table. Seriously. Let's see if we can change things around here and get rid of him first kay?"
"Face, face, face, face" YES!!
grin
Rob, followed your link
Posted by Victoria on 06-Nov-2003 10:56:40 (#5261)
and I think the section about women is true, they just should not print it. t I think that there are very few of us out there, but the world being how it is today there should be an increasing amount unless the CSM's take over.
Anyway, I have my moments but no expert here, just do not have the time to get in enough blackjack. Think I only can play between 150-175 hours this year.
Re: Rob, followed your link
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Nov-2003 11:07:21 (#5262)
I was hoping that you would see and comment on that article. Thanks. I understand about time spent playing blackjack. With only 24 hours in a day, we have to spend that time in the most efficient way possible, and right now BJ isn't getting the time it deserves.
Re: Rob, followed your link
Posted by Count Luckula on 06-Nov-2003 11:12:32 (#5263)
I'd like to get together a team of Asian women. Oh the damage we could do...
Re: Asian women
Posted by Victoria on 06-Nov-2003 11:51:00 (#5265)
On a couple of occassions where I have gone to the Chumash casino there were a couple of, perhaps Vietnamesse, women who did not sit at the table but would watch the game and then place bets on different players hands. I do not think they were counting, just hoping to come in with a lucky player. In relation to your post, since they are known for doing this, if they learned to count, it appears to me that they could wong into shoes for a prolonged period of time before anyone might even think about their play.
If this is common in other locals, then perhaps you should start recruiting.
Re: Asian women
Posted by Count Luckula on 06-Nov-2003 13:06:48 (#5267)
I may have already :)
Spanish 21 & Super 7 Bonus
Posted by V-man on 03-Nov-2003 13:04:23 (#5155)
Friend of mine was playing at a local casino, she played Spanish 21 and at one time she had 2 bets each $25 on the table and miracle happen: one of her hand got 3 suited 7 (diamond) and dealer shows a 7 spade! This is one of the very rare event in Spanish 21. Since she bet $25, she got the super 7 bonus $5000 and everyone at the table got each $50. How nice!
How rare is this event? I asked many dealers and all of them never seen this before!
Re: Spanish 21 & Super 7 Bonus
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Nov-2003 14:33:39 (#5159)
In a shoe game (at blackjack):
first 7 (any): 24/312
second 7 (same suit): 5/311
third 7 (same suit): 4/310
dealer 7 (any): 21/309
The probability of this event is: (24*5*4*21)/(312*311*310*309) = .00000108449
Thus, this event is 922,091 to 1.
--Mayor
Re: Spanish 21 & Super 7 Bonus
Posted by V-man on 03-Nov-2003 18:53:36 (#5171)
Actually the probability of this happening is alittle more due to the fact that Spanish 21 is dealt out of a deck without 10s.
Following your numbers:
first 7 (any): 24/288
second 7 (same suit): 5/287
third 7 (same suit): 4/286
dealer 7 (any): 21/285
one hand out of: (288*287*286*285)/(24*5*4*21) = 668382
For 8 decks, I got: (384*383*382*381)/(32*7*6*29) = 549188
Actually, the number is a little better than I thought. My local casino has 2 Spanish tables 8 decks, if dealing about 50 hands per hour (slow because table always crowded and many ploppies betting 'match the dealer' and dealer busy
handling this side bet). Assuming 2 tables, each 50 hands per hour, all 7 spots occupied, 20 hours a day (compensating for slow hours, table not full), 2*50*7*20 = 14000 hands per day. For the 8 decks, they should see this event every 549188/14000 = 39 days. This is happening more often than I thought (actually a lot more than I thought, but why no dealers ever seen this?)
Any other reason why?
Re: Spanish 21 & Super 7 Bonus
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Nov-2003 19:37:06 (#5172)
I know I gave the numbers for BJ and not Spanish, because I thought more would be interested in the BJ numbers.
By the way, there is a count to beat the 7's bet on the BJ table -- but you need to be able to put down $25 on it (not $1 -- as in most places this is the limit).
It has been years since I ran this sim, but I think this is it...
In a shoe:
Count each non-7 as +1
Count each 7 as -12.
Make the $25 bet when the TC > 6
(roughly 32 non-7's dealt out off the top makes it an even bet).
--Mayor
Re: Spanish 21 & Super 7 Bonus
Posted by Ed Tice on 03-Nov-2003 14:33:49 (#5160)
Here is a quick calculation (somebodz will correct me if I get it wrong, Im sure).
Assuming six deck shoe, first deal (of course the chance changes as you deal into the deck)
1/13 chance of getting a 7 on the first card. After that chance is 5/311 of getting a second suited seven. After that a chance of 4/310 of getting the third suited seven.
So I dont have a calculator here, but estimating we hae 1/10 x 1/60 x 1/75 = 1/45000.
If I made an arithmetic mistake someobdy will point it out to me.
1/45000 is not so rare when you consider that 5 hands are dealt on average at once equals one out of every 9000 deals. So if you are getting 100 deals per hour, it would be everz 90 hours. So a dealer ought to see it once every two weeks!
That actually seems too often to me, so check my numbers. I may have shifted a decimal somewhere.
Ed
Re: You're right, just keep going!
Posted by Sonny on 03-Nov-2003 17:52:42 (#5170)
> That actually seems too often to me, so check my numbers. I may have
> shifted a decimal somewhere.
Your numbers are right (thus far), but as you can see from the Mayor's post you simply forgot to include the probability of the dealer getting a 7 as well. In either case, your numbers for calculating the player's hand are still accurate.
-Sonny-
Re: You're right, just keep going!
Posted by Ed Tice on 04-Nov-2003 02:49:58 (#5176)
You are correct so multiplying by the 21/309 ~ 1/15 a dealer should still see this at his/her table once every 30 weeks! Assuming that (s)he would be aware of it if it happened at an adjacent table that makes once every 10 weeks. Hardly something the delaer never saw unless (s)he was a newbie. Sounds like the dealer is told to say "I never saw that before" and think "...this month".
Ed
Halloween Trip Report
Posted by hinoon on 04-Nov-2003 00:11:35 (#5174)
So, I went to Vegas with a pack of ploppies.
I know, I know...
But sometimes, when you have friends with birthdays on Halloween who have never been to Vegas...and friends who just got married, and a brother that just got a big raise... you have to roll with the punches, catch a show, enjoy the buffet and do your best to blend into the costume-wearing throngs as you silently, single-handedly do your best to take-on the casinos and do the Mayor proud...
So, liquor fueled antics aside...I managed to get in a BIT of respectable table-time. Experienced the thrill of variance, and the magic of statistics. I had two big losses and three really big wins. I ended up +120 units, saw a remarkable dealer error and learned one new bit of info...
The dealer error was pure gold. It's 2am and I'm talking to my friend while back-counting a 6 deck shoe. The TC goes through the roof, so I step in and put down a reasonably large wager for my BR (but merited by the count). Cards are dealt and...of course...I land a sweet hard 15. Crap. Everyone else hits hard 20's and the guy at 3rd base pulls a BJ, naturally. The dealer pulls an A. Crap.
"Insurance? Even money?"
The 3rd base has had a LOT of whiskey and doesn't know what "even money" is about, so the dealer explains it and convinces the ploppy to take the cash. Then, after paying out the even money, the dealer checks his card, and flips over his 21. Crap.
The dealer wipes the CARDS off the table and in that very instant...the pit boss strolls by with Mr. 3rd base's Club Card and verifies his buy-in with the dealer, distracting him for just a moment. The dealer turns back to the table...and deals out fresh cards....without clearing the losing chips.
Genius.
My friend was standing right there as I proceeded to win the next hand and get the hell out of Dodge. Under my breath, I whispered..."Did you see that???" , but of course...he hadn't, and I didn't risk explaining it to him until we were out the doors, before the heavy hand of inevitability tried to catch up with me.
On the flip side...I noticed a sad change at a downtown casino. It may not be news since it's been a while since my last visit...but I was surprised to see that the Las Vegas Club doesn't allow wonging anymore. In the very least, they didn't this weekend. Even on their low-roller tables, they had signs up that said "No Mid-Deck Entry". I checked the tables three different times of the day and none were open to the casual passing wager. Maybe it was a fluke...I hope it's not a growing trend.
Other than that, I saw a guy with the cohones to go out in public wearing an inflatable-penis costume win $5,000 over a girl wearing paint and paint-alone for a costume.
Ahhh Las Vegas.
Cheers,
HiNoon
Re: Halloween Trip Report
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Nov-2003 05:37:40 (#5178)
Great report Hi-Noon. 120 units ahead that is great. You know you should have insured that 15 against the dealers ace at +3 tc for six deck or +1 at single deck. Your were lucky. leaving shortly after was good too! Most places have no Mid Shoe entry for single deck.
Re: Halloween Trip Report
Posted by hinoon on 04-Nov-2003 10:40:38 (#5181)
LTC,
You're right, I was lucky on that one. I'm still learning the indices, and wasn't sure about the insurance play. I wonder if the dealer would have goofed if I'd had an insurance bet on the line? Regardles, once it'd happened, it was definitely time to head out.
Still learnin'...
Re: Halloween Trip Report
Posted by Mr Pill on 04-Nov-2003 11:05:30 (#5182)
hinoon
Learn that one quick. I believe it is about the biggest one to know. Other initial ones to know are standing on 16v10, 12v3, 12v2 & 15v10. I believe these will give you the biggest gains after the insurance one.
Pill
Appropriate Countermeasures
Posted by Ed Tice on 04-Nov-2003 09:21:49 (#5180)
Lets take a *hypothetical* case.
Lets say that somebody was living in a place where all of the casinos were really bad. (6D, D9, DAS, RSA, ENHC, Cheating Shuffling Machine), admission charge, no free drinks, and no comps. Obviously nobody who wasn't stupid would want to play in this casino! But there would certainly be opportunity to organize 'private' blackjack games. (Again we are being completely hypothetical here).
Lets say that these 'private' games wanted to offer a really good experience to the customer so they set up the rules very liberally. (2D, Double any hard hand, DAS, RSA, ENHC) and give players at minimum, somthing to drink.
The organizers will also be upfront abou the house advantage (0.25%) and even print the correct basic strategy on the Baize!
They want to be fairly liberal about advantage play and don't want to bar card counters or rough them up. However, the casino does want to limit lossed due to advantage play to be somwhere around 15% of table drop.
As the LV losses due to AP are estimated at around 8% of table drop, it would seem that the organizers aren't taking a huge risk. However, given the private nature of the games, it is anticipated that the quality of play from the non-counters will be much higher than in a real casino, so even though the game is happier to give back a higher %, the total $ given back would have to be lower or the game will run at a heavy loss.
(Assuming that with 0.25% BS that the game only takes an average of 0.5% per player, a single AP playing at 2% advantage could wipe out the take from an entire table. The casinos here get about 8% on average due to the amount of poor play, so really shouldn't worry about anybody with a 2% advantage)
Some thoughts are
(1) Lousy pen. This might make the game not worth the CCs time, but that hasn't stopped aspiring counters from turning the Western and El C. into their training grounds.
(2) HIgher minimums and lower spreads ont the table. Limiting to minimum 25 max 100 again reduces the AP advantage and probably wouldn't make a difference in table drop.
(3) Preferntial shuffles. Although if this were employed there would have to be some compensation to the non-counters. One thought was to preferentially shuffle after a counter places a big bet, but then award something at random to a non-counter at the table (Pushing his losing bet or something) to keep the game fair.
(4) Mid-Shoe entry prohibition/limits. Maybe even if you leave a shoe early you have to sit out the whole next one!.
(5) Limiting wonging in. If your at the game, your at the table. If you're at the table, your playing.
(6) Refusing to deal to counters if they are the only one at the table.
(7) Charing an admission fee and (liberally) selectively waiving it.
(8) Refusing to serve the APs drinks!
Any other ideas?
Things that would not be considered: barrings, physical abuse, cheating shuffling machines, preferrential shuffles without compensation to the non-counters.
Re: Appropriate Countermeasures
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Nov-2003 12:42:08 (#5183)
I know I am dumb but what is the purpose of your discussion???? Are you setting up an illegal casino or starting a discussion on casino tactics to harass Advantage Players?????????????????????????????????/
ED,mr casino boss leave... *NM*
Posted by eyes for 21 on 04-Nov-2003 14:35:36 (#5185)
You need professional HELP!
Posted by AlexD30 on 04-Nov-2003 12:59:24 (#5184)
What is your point? - Are you some kind a NUT?
No card counter ever gets 2% edge over the house in the long run. What are you talking here makes no sense whatsoever. Better mind your own business and don't get involved in giving advice around because you have no clue.
AlexD30
Re: You need professional HELP!
Posted by Ed Tice on 04-Nov-2003 15:17:20 (#5186)
Well, Im certainly willing to keep my mouth shut anywhere that my comments arent wanted. But the Mayor did let my post past moderation. If he ever censors me or asks me to leave, I will do so gracefully. If nobody answers my post, I wont press the issue.
Perhaps somebody can help me with the numbers then. Assuming that the casino takes no counter-measures and seems to have a desire to spit out money like a well-stocked ATM gone defunct, what percentage could you hope to obtain?
I know only the basics of counting and betting and a fair amount of the mathematics and have a reasonable math background. I have heard numbers higher than 2% for teams that can combine advantage play techniques.
Lets say you had a team of good counters, the casino would let you take notes on the dealt cards, do calculations on paper, shuffle track, key card (and signal verbally), and the game was dealt down to the very last card, how much of a percentage do the math experts here think the team could get?
Of course this doesnt exist in any casino. But if you set up a game and made it a free-for-all for advantage players, I imagine you would go broke.
Ed
Re: You need professional HELP!
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Nov-2003 17:09:04 (#5193)
Ed you need to read Professional Black jack, Stanford Wong, and the read BJ Attack, Don Schlesinger. These two bboks are the foundation of modern card counting. The latter is brainy but can be deciphered. Read them and then you will understand how it works. I welcome your questions. Try to be clear and try not to be so sneaky about finding out the "SECRETS" of card counting. Maybe if you learn how to do it you will come over to the good side and leave the dark side of the force. Oh and don't bull $h1t us. Ask an honest question and you will get an honest answer.
Re: Appropriate Countermeasures
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 04-Nov-2003 15:28:57 (#5187)
"Some thoughts are:
(1) Lousy pen. This might make the game not worth the CCs time, but that hasn't stopped aspiring counters from turning the Western and El C. into their training grounds. "
Buzzz.... Your first thought is totally wrong.
I agree with the above posters.
HOWEVER, who says that APs cost LV 8% of the BJ drop? Where did that figure come from? Do you have any concept of what 8% of the BJ drop in Las Vegas is? I bet the people who are using this 8% figure are the same people trying to sell some service to the casinos to supposedly stop it.
Re: Appropriate Countermeasures
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Nov-2003 15:39:01 (#5189)
I think we may hace a casino mole here. A real devious animal trying kiss our A$$E$ to get to our secret $h!T. So be careful!
measures
Posted by eyes for 21 on 04-Nov-2003 19:59:01 (#5199)
a few top places actually let you jump as high as
you want -
like going from 25 to 500
it doesn't matter which does not really give us more
of an edge,
we know with the count that we can still lose huge
and win huge, as the game has huge swings
In a top bjack book by Ian Anderson,one of the worlds best
he mentions that he was on a two week trip to Vegas and it was
going great until the very last session on the way to
airport when he gave it all back and more. The game uhhh!
I remember the fitz after winning 4 days straight with good pen on
dbl deck and the next day the pit boss comes up to me
and says lets see how much you can win,let it fly///
and I did but it was not really any larger win rate
just bigger swings.
Re: Appropriate Countermeasures
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Nov-2003 17:42:08 (#5195)
>(1) Lousy pen. This might make the game not worth the CCs time, but that hasn't stopped aspiring counters from turning the Western and El C. into their training grounds.
The Western and the El C. still have outstanding pen, but it is highly dealer dependent, plus you will get kicked out moments after your first blackjack if you show much real skill
>(2) HIgher minimums and lower spreads ont the table. Limiting to minimum 25 max 100 again reduces the AP advantage and probably wouldn't make a difference in table drop.
Not a bad idea. But then the simple progressionists (losers) will whine -- and finding a table for your exact bet may be problematic.
>(3) Preferntial shuffles.
This is cheating on the part of the casino, IMHO.
>(4) Mid-Shoe entry prohibition/limits. Maybe even if you leave a shoe early you have to sit out the whole next one!.
I have never heard of the "sit out he whole next one" idea -- pity the fool who goes to the bathroom.
>(5) Limiting wonging in. If your at the game, your at the table. If you're at the table, your playing.
Too restrictive on the roaming losers. Many people play a strategy whereby if they lose a few hands at a table, they find another table (I think John Patrick advocates this).
>(6) Refusing to deal to counters if they are the only one at the table.
Hmmm...
>(7) Charing an admission fee and (liberally) selectively waiving it.
These are called comps.
>(8) Refusing to serve the APs drinks!
That already happens -- it is the least of the "heat" we endure.
>Any other ideas?
Yes, how about dealing the same game to us as to others, and let us use our wits to not get caught. That's what it's all about.
I don't think one can fine tune the game/comps/heat to the skill of the player, the people on the floor and management are just not that smart. Games tend to be what they are, and it is up to each advantage player to develop the skills to deal with the circumstances of the given casino
--Mayor
Re: Appropriate Countermeasures
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 04-Nov-2003 19:14:59 (#5198)
Ed, you said:
>(4) Mid-Shoe entry prohibition/limits. Maybe even if you leave a shoe early you have to sit out the whole next one!.
Great, now the rest of us won't get to wash our hands either when taking a restroom break for fear we won't get back before the flop of the new shoe.
Ed, don't forget that 99.??% of the players in the world are what makes the casino money. Do you really want them to stand there and wait 10 mins for a new shoe before they can start donating $, just because maybe 1 in every 1000 players is an A P?
Stealth
Re: Appropriate Countermeasures
Posted by Ed Tice on 05-Nov-2003 02:58:03 (#5202)
Okay so I wont pursue this topic any further since all it has gotten is for me to be attacked. I am not a casino boss at all.
I live somewhere where everything is controlled by legal cartels to keep supply low and prices high. There is a limit of one casino per city so they are all crap.
So to answer LTC, yes I was considering opening an illegal casino. Now I imagine that a lot of people here wouldn't approve of that, even though I would welcome all of you guys to my casino if I were to do that. The local game is so bad that those who know anything about the game are continuously looking for a decent one. Lots of trips to other parts of the world are generated in order to play at decent places. But all of the ten-splitters dont know any better. And since I wouldn't exactly be able to advertise in the newspaper, I imagine that I would attract only two groups -- "good" ploppies who can play correct BS and counters/other APs. Without the really bad players to pad the profits, especially starting small, it is entirely possible that a few hits by teams could really put the game in trouble.
If I were to open the casino (and if I ever get beyond the "thinking about it" phase, I wont be posting about it anywhere and certainly not with my real name!), I would want to be decent to the APs and let them play. But if the game bankrupts that doesn't help anybody.
Yes I am trying to learn to count (which is why I am here). But given how bad the casinos are here, I have mulled the possibility that there is more money to make opening my own than there is in counting. But I could never open a legal casino and I wont be getting the clueless tourists at my tables. So the table drop would be much lower.
LTC will comment, but I don't think that floating the idea of opening a casino is illegal and didn't think this discussion would be harmful. I wont say any more on the topic.
Re: Appropriate Countermeasures
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Nov-2003 07:12:00 (#5205)
Okay okay I was hard on you. Well all I can say is "tough"! Your posts were weird and you were playing games. Now you are being honest. No one here will harrange you for being honest. They will go after you for playing games. I welcome your up front style!
The casino business is tough. The heat from the government will come when they find out. There two reasons I can see why they will come after you; 1:It is illegal. 2:They want thier tax share of profits. Now when the thieves and organize crime guys find out about your illegal establishment they will want a piece. Then there are the cheats and sore losers they could be bad for your business if not your health. Casinos exist and have existed because they have the financiel power and muscle to protect themselves.
God luck in this endeavor. I occasionally have a poker game over at the house on sunday nights. Ten dollar buy in, nickle dime, quarter game. Lots of fun. We play Texas Holdem. The pot never goes over ten dollars. Winner takes all. The houes does not make a profit. This fits in with state laws as well. I dont play black jack because of the built in edge for the house. EVen with perfect rules we dont play because it is boring at home. Hey I hope you continue to participate and learn here. Just cut out the bull.
Ed, if you want to open an illegal casino
Posted by eyes for 21 on 05-Nov-2003 09:23:26 (#5216)
Many people have done this.
Hey its even done in the movies watch: boiler room.
I know a few dealers that ask there badplayers to come over
for
the private bjack parties.
I Feel Like I'm Always the Last to Know What's Going On
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Nov-2003 17:46:47 (#5196)
Who is Ed Tice? Is he a casino employee? It doesn't matter to me one way or the other, but I am curious.
Re: I Feel Like I'm Always the Last to Know What's Going On
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Nov-2003 17:56:18 (#5197)
Ed showed up a few weeks ago on a variety of gaming boards -- I am with you, it would be nice if he filled out a profile, and was just a bit more candid about himself. We are a small family, and although we welcome new blood, it is always with caution.
--Mayor
Re: I Feel Like I'm Always the Last to Know What's Going On
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Nov-2003 20:26:58 (#5200)
Ed Tice is knowledgeable about Card counting. He uses dumb questions to obtain more knowledge or promote an excess of information flow through worthless bantering. A typical intelligence technique used to gather secret information. If Ed wishes to communicate he should be honest and to the point. His tact so far has generated much distrust amongst us. So how about it Ed jsutask what you want to know and we will see.
Re: I Feel Like I'm Always the Last to Know What's Going On
Posted by Ed Tice on 05-Nov-2003 03:01:02 (#5203)
I am no casino employee. I am just a beginner trying to learn and I've put a lot of effort into doing so (have spent many lonely weekends sitting in my apartment by myself with decks of cards practicing). I really dont want to make all of my personal information public, but if it makes everybody feel better I'll send the mayor an email with all of my personal information! Just tell me what is wanted!
One thing I do have to say, though, is that I hear lots of criticism here of the casinos being "paranoid"! I'm just a nobody and everybody is worried about me!
Ed
Re: I Feel Like I'm Always the Last to Know What's Going On
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Nov-2003 06:58:21 (#5204)
Ed thanks for changing your post style. Now you are communicating. Your posts have been strange. I welcome you! Yes we are a little paranoid but I will tell you now even the casino spies get thier questions answered here if they are honest and up front. No one is going to tell you who they are, nor are they going to tell you where the candy store is. They will help you even teach you how the game should be played. I hope you can accept this and understand that we are a close knit group but are willing to spread the word. I welcome your up front honesty and clear communication.
Welcome Ed!
Posted by SammyBoy on 05-Nov-2003 09:15:07 (#5214)
I didn't mean anything offensive by this post. I saw it mentioned in another post that you may be a casino person, which is ok by me, but I just wanted to know up front and also felt like maybe others knew who you were and did not share the information.
ED IS LEGIT
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Nov-2003 10:34:22 (#5220)
I have personal experience with Ed, so please go easy on the guy and get your troll alert system fixed. If anything, you guys are training trolls to be better trolls.
http://profiles.yahoo.com/edtice
Re: ED IS LEGIT
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Nov-2003 15:07:22 (#5230)
My apologies Ed. If Rob says your okay then your okay. Welcome to the site.
A. P. Rating System
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 04-Nov-2003 22:59:10 (#5201)
I have often wondered how I personally rate on some form of rating system in terms of all around ability in the business of pro bj.
Does anyone else ever try to rate their overall abilities as an A P and where they are on a scale from 1 - 10 or such as novice, intermediate, expert and world class?
Also, how does a player know where he/she actually is on this would-be scale? I think this is important to know so we don't end up with either a false sense of security or otherwise just the opposite. I think sometimes many of us need some reassurance of where we really stand. How do we gauge it? Sometimes I think I'm a novice and sometimes an expert. I've only met one other cc in all my playing days. I'm not sure how good he really is. It's just hard to be certain when you're out there all by you're little lonesome self. It would be nice to just really know how close or far we really are from being great.
Comments encouraged please.
Stealth
Re: A. P. Rating System
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Nov-2003 07:27:11 (#5207)
LTC's rating system:
A$$hole tourist: Drunk, ignorant and bets five dollars to impress the hooker he just picked up. (No Ploppy jimmy I did not mean you!)
Ploppy: "I've been gambling for twenty years and no one ever splits tens! $h!T you won!" or "Who told you to ever hit 16 against 17 after the dealer has won seven times in a row" or "after you lose a bet double your next bet and cross your toes and hope for the positive flow".
Basic Strategy player/ploppy: "Hell yesterday I won six times in a row and I used the same progression. So why did I lose today?"
Beginning counter: "plus one,plus two,plus three, okay 3 divided into six decks or is it six decks divided by 3, aw forget it...what do you do at plus three true count when the dealers shows an ace....ugh?????????
Average counter: "Sir would you like a players card or how about a buffet comp to our five star buffet????"
Pro Counter: Sir you can play any other game in the casino but not Black Jack.
Advantage Player: Sir you have the right to remain silent, anything you say...........................................
Re: A. P. Rating System
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Nov-2003 08:51:46 (#5213)
Nice break down LTC. BJ is the first level of Heaven, which can take you to around a 2% pos EV. There are two more levels so I have heard. ;> Tracking and Ace traking, HOLE CARD READING (for the recently deaf LVHCM), can take you into the 6% 10% levels. And beyond the quasars? I'm just Hubbling around! ;>
Who says what?
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Nov-2003 09:45:45 (#5218)
There are many opportunities that arise that are > 10%. The simplest one to mention is coupons. But there are many, many more.
I think that the card-counting community is a bit myopic in this sense, but that is a good thing too. If all the card counters suddenly realized how easy and obvious these other opportunities are, they would surely be compromised. My recent podiums and polls have been an attempt to get people to think in these terms, but clearly I can't say more that this, and there are many who have asked me to not say even as much as I do.
--Mayor
We said He
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Nov-2003 10:17:43 (#5219)
Coupies, yes. Greed can make people try to protect an advantage. I doubt anyone has a gun to your head mayor, and you just want to sit on the golden eggs yourself ;>
Keep records of your play like: hours, hands, min/max bet or average bet
Posted by AlexD30 on 05-Nov-2003 08:26:38 (#5211)
I would say this:
Keep records of your play like: hours, hands, min/max bet or average bet and results. Create a spreadsheet file with all this data and analyze it for at least 600 hours of play. That would be about 60,000 hands. After so many hands you should be able to overcome the house edge and show a profit if you are a accomplished player.
Why is that? .., because after so many hands if you play with a 1.25% edge your expectation is 60,000*1.25% = 750 average bets. Now, one standard deviation for 60,000 hands is 1.1*sqrt(60,000) = 245 and two standard deviations for the same number of hands is double of that or 2*245 = 490 average bets and the ultimate three standard deviations is 3*245 = 725. So, you can see that your expectation surpasses a two standard deviation that covers about 97% of your playing time and even surpasses a three standard deviations that is about 99.7% of all your playing time.
If your financial results are into the positive territory after 600 hours of quality blackjack then you can be certain that you are a world class player. If you cannot accomplish that then you need to take a serious look in what you are doing. If you play part time BJ and if you have access to Vegas games for weekends then you can have 600 hours in about a year.
I, for myself, can play in Vegas on every weekend starting from Friday night till Sunday evening for about 20 hours.
Four hours on Friday night from 8:00PM till 12:00AM. Another 8 hours on Saturday from 10:AM - 2:00PM and 6:00PM-10:00PM and the same for Sunday. So, I can play about 20 hours for weekend. I also fly over from LA into Vegas on Tuesday evening and play 5 hours, go to sleep there and fly back into LA on Wednesday early in the morning. This way I can put 100 hours a month and get into the long run in about 6 months or so, but I live 3 hours of driving from Vegas.
The bottom line is that you should be able to get into the long run in 600 hours and have a substantial profit from BJ.
AlexD30
Alex, Thanks for the Advice
Posted by SammyBoy on 05-Nov-2003 11:21:14 (#5221)
I do keep a log as you mentioned. The one thing I regret not tracking when I started is dealer tokes. I have played 262.5 hours over the last year and am behind by $521.50. I have tipped dealers entirely too much, probably close to the amount I am behind by if not double that. About 6 months ago it became aparent that I was giving away my edge to the dealer and I have really cut the tokes down to almost nil. Also exactly 130 of those hours are at one particular casino where I have lost $2073. I'm not sure why I am such a big loser there, the rules are great and I play mostly SD (bj pays 3:2) with a 1 to 5 spread. Beginning with my next trip I will attempt to track dealer tokes.
Stop giving your money away to dealers
Posted by LVBear584 on 05-Nov-2003 12:15:36 (#5225)
Beginning with my next trip I will attempt to track dealer tokes.
Better yet, STOP TOKING. Completely Entirely. Immediately. <u>Not one more cent.</u>
Unless it's an irreplaceable part of your act, the likelihood is you're throwing that money in the trash. Better to set aside any money that you're thinking of giving to dealers and donate it to charity instead.
Great Point! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 05-Nov-2003 12:24:47 (#5226)
Re: Stop giving your money away to dealers
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Nov-2003 13:40:51 (#5227)
Toking a dealer is like toking the devil every time you sin. You just shorten the time of your demise.
a minor disagreement
Posted by Victoria on 05-Nov-2003 14:05:39 (#5228)
Toking a little is something I do. I feel it is part cover for me and I like to get smiles from the dealers. I know it has nothing to do with the cards we get but I do think the profile says we do not toke. At $2 per hour by your calculations, you are far from a huge toker. I watch guys with one black in the circle and a green for the dealer all the time and wonder if they ever tried to add up those pure losses.
I might have 2 blacks out and two silver for the dealer sometimes, no big deal to me. I am not a pro, I like to win but I am also having fun.
Just my 2 silvers worth.
Re: a minor disagreement
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Nov-2003 14:59:42 (#5229)
Ahhhh a lady! Vicky you do what ever you think is right. You are breath of fresh air to this site! We never toke due to the loss of earnings it can cost us. I guess we are greedy. The other reason is that dealers are not doing a service for us but rather for the Casinos. They may smile but believe me they will cut your throat if they had the chance. I dont personally buy into the gambling is entertainment and the dealer is the entertainer thing. Gambling is about taking a chance to win money. Card counting is about being able to win consistantly. When gamblers lose they fall back on "hey it was fun thats the cost of entertainment". You know what your doing Vicky and you understand the consequences. SO who am I to argue with a Lady! LTC JMHO
Re: a minor disagreement
Posted by Count Luckula on 05-Nov-2003 15:31:24 (#5234)
I have mixed feelings about tipping and do it differently under different situations. What do you all think?
If I'm in hit-and-run mode, I usually won't tip much, if at all. Maybe a little at the very end when I get up to leave, if I think the dealer is friendly and did a good job. One caveat though, is if I win a reasonably large amount, I will not tip over giving some marginal amount. How cheap and unploppy-like does it look if you are betting decent money, color up a nice profit, and then tip some silver or red?
However, if I'm at a place that I like and tend to spend more time in, I will be more liberal, especially if the dealer is friendly and/or recognizes me. I will generally try to tip small amounts regularly in winning sessions.
Note: This really only applies to medium green play and up. If we're talking red, you should not sacrifice any EV and should fly under the radar at all times. You need to build up the bankroll so you can move on to the fun stuff.
I generally disagree with viewing the casino personnel as the "enemy" and I think there is a lot to be gained by being at least being friendly. Now if they do not reciprocate (Chumash Mayor?), I agree that you should take them for everything that they're worth. On the otherhand, I've found that a dealer who likes you may tend to deal deeper in a hand-held game, or might even give you a hint when they peek under that ace, or make payout mistakes. All sorts of things can happen. True the eye can track your play, but in many casinos, this is usually done at the request of the floor. If you're looking for comps, the floor also does the rating. The bottom-line is you're friendly, they're friendly, and everybody has a good time. On the otherhand, you should never let down your guard and always assume that somebody upstairs is watching you!
I guess my viewpoint is different than a lot of people's here. I think making money is important, but so are longevity and having fun. Let me add that if you haven't read Burning the Tables, it's worth the time and the cost. Granted it is geared towards those w/ huge bankrolls (which I definitely don't have yet), it might give you a fresh perspective on AP.
Just my very long-winded 2 cents.
Re: a minor disagreement
Posted by Victoria on 05-Nov-2003 15:53:04 (#5236)
Just thought of something. I will toke silver or maybe one red and my bets are generally black. So if I were betting red and used the same kind of percentage, I would be putting out a little dime or worse, so playing red and toking just can not work unless perhaps you put a silver out there at $50 on a rare occassion. Just working the percentages through my mind here. A small toke and a big better does not give too much up, but the same toke to the smaller player is a mistake. Anyway, it is a personal thing if you understand what you are doing.
....a major disagreement
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Nov-2003 16:22:40 (#5237)
This is interesting. When I was a beggining player I used to have the same sentiments. After playing with others who's talents are far above most players abilities. I had the realization about what we are facing out there. Card counting is tough. You have to play at a level that is mind boggling at times. When you hit the zen level of your talents then you will see why certain things are the way they are for this level of play. If you play as deadly as I have experienced and have seen from those who are in the know you will understand why they continually say DONT TIP. My only thought at this time is that those who still debate why you should tip are not playing at a this level. I have been there and its incredible. I have watched play unlike what you are experiencing. I have seen the "Beyond Couunting" in advantage play. Counters like Las Vegas Bear are far above 90% of the people who are on this site and he is probably in the ten percent of world advantage players out there who are wizards. I have been there and many of you have not. The Mayor and LVBear are experts. Thier abilities are incredible. This banter about tipping is just that; Useless ploppy nonsense. If you want to tip have at at it. If you want to excell and be a CARD COUNTER then listen to these men they are at the top of their game and believe me I have been there to see the Casino's demise.
Re: ....a major disagreement
Posted by Count Luckula on 05-Nov-2003 21:48:47 (#5245)
You know LTC, going back and reading my post, it doesn't sound the way I intended...I don't mean to suggest anyone ever SHOULD tip. At least don't ever expect to get anything out of it. I know it's a bad play to make in terms of EV and everything else. I didn't mean to imply that a tip would ever buy you anything, but rather that a friendly attitude might.
There seems to be a lot of animosity among AP's towards casinos, their employees, ploppies, etc. Maybe I'm naive and after playing for 20 more years, all I'll want is to take money from casinos, and hate everything else about them, but if the kid dealing me cards makes the effort to do a good job, and makes my time more enjoyable, I have no problem throwing a few bucks his/her way. Most of them wouldn't be able to spot an AP if you wrote it on your forehead. I'm advocating tipping for exceptional service, and for no other reason.
I can understand wanting to retain all your earnings if this is your profession, but how is tipping a dealer so different from tipping a valet or a bartender?
Agree, in SMALL amounts, sparingly
Posted by Radar on 05-Nov-2003 20:54:34 (#5243)
I agree that it doesn't hurt in small amounts, infrequently. It is good for cover and good at having the house look upon you in a more favorable way...again, very sparingly, though.
Re: a minor disagreement
Posted by Radar on 05-Nov-2003 20:49:49 (#5242)
Have to agree, Victoria...a small toke ONCE IN AWHILE is good cover and may swing a small advantage your way from the dealer...putting out a greenie for the dealer with your black makes no sense; however...
Keep them small and far and few between.
Re: a minor disagreement
Posted by Victoria on 06-Nov-2003 10:42:49 (#5259)
Seems to me that as in any other field, we have contributors who have varied levels of expertise and ability. I understand those masters of this craft who maximize their edge and do not plan to give any of it back willingly by toking. I toke very sparingly, for cover and atmosphere. For instance, if the whole table is hot and happy and every other player is tipping generously, being perhaps the one player on the table who in a few hands went from $50 to $250 bets, winning, and did not put a single silver out for the dealer, just might make you stand out a little more than the ploppy who is doing a parlay luckily at the right time.
I am far from an expert. I have never been barred and perhaps when that day comes, I will also declare total war against the casinos and their employees. At the same time I still have fun playing, though I am sure I could win more than I currently do, there would be a price paid for that.
Anyway, the great thing about these kinds of message boards is that we can get all sorts of discussion going.
Re: a minor disagreement
Posted by Learning to count on 06-Nov-2003 13:45:20 (#5271)
Vicky whatever you do is alright in my book. My vision of you is that you must be a hottie and a dangerous women at the BJ table. I cant argue with that.! You go girl!
Tokes = ZERO - Do not toke!
Posted by AlexD30 on 05-Nov-2003 15:14:38 (#5232)
Do not toke at all!
You do not have to toke any dealer whatsoever. Why are you wasting your EV on tokes? - I stop giving tips 20 years ago because I figure that is a waste and a drain to my income.
AlexD30
Tipping Your Edge Away *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Nov-2003 09:34:33 (#5255)
http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/novadollar.htm
As I gave a $1US tip to a waitress in Veradero I thought about the concept of tipping. My entire trip was covered by the US money I had made by playing onLine casinos. I thought of each tip like I was tipping some gorgeously hot Latina dealer for a win on a split/double down bet. I can dream can't I? Caliente!
I enjoyed relaxing and playing in the sea and pool with wife and two children, and felt that we had just touched a bit of paradise. A $1US tip means a lot to these people. Before they started using the Convertible Peso, you could get black market Pesos at the rate of 30 to 40 to one USD. At the hotels, they proudly treated their worthless Peso as they did the USD, so you could bring them back to the hotel and use them just like you could use the USD. The Convertible Peso looks like a real coin but is more like a metal casino chip that equals the same amount in USD. It didn't take long for the Cuban Government to stuff a sock into that opportunity.
OnLand the average counter has an advantage of around 1-2%. If you play undisturbed for an hour and can get 100 hands in with an average bet of $50, your total action is 5K and your long run expectation around $50-$100. You could be up or down by $500 from this expectation due to variance (what ploppies call "luck"), but the math speaks the truth. OnLine I can put in 400 hands an hour and make 5 cents with each dollar played with less variance than a T bill has, but that is another story.
When I tip the dealer I do so when I am winning, and when the count calls for a larger bet. This means that if I am playing every hand (which I seldom due in 8deckville Ontario) half the time I am not winning, and there will be no tips. Sorry. Bad day. When I do tip, I normally place a $1 chip on the edge of the betting circle and play it for the dealer. The dealer has a chance of getting a $2 win, and it keeps my tip in action longer so the pit and eye can catch it. Counters don't tip right? Yeah, sure.
We don't owe anyone a living, but we do have the responsibility that goes with being a winner. We are expected to tip 10% to 15% for a nice dinner on the town. We can't tip like that at a blackjack table or we will give our edge away. A single dollar can go a long way for you and the person you give it to. In fact, the next time someone begs you for your spare change, look them in the eye and tell them you don't have any spare change and hand them a dollar bill. Your smile will be as wide as Texas, and their amazement will be worth every Lincoln cent of it!
Re: Tipping Your Edge Away
Posted by Count Luckula on 06-Nov-2003 10:47:42 (#5260)
Rob,
I agree whole-heartedly. I don't think you should tip because you're trying to get something out of the person, I think you should do it to show your appreciation. As Rob points out, this applies inside the casino as well as outside of it.
"Counters don't tip right? Yeah, sure."
Never underestimate acting like one of the ploppies. It's so much easier to make play deviations when you're one of them. When the dealer suggests that you hit that 12 or 13 v. a bust card, or stay on that 15 or 16 v. a face, you're just following her advice, right?? It can be dangerous to make a lot of play variations. You're either really good, or really bad. I'd rather they think I'm the latter, and am just getting lucky.
I had an experience recently where my two silvers went a hell of a long way. Instead of placing it at the edge of the circle, she put it on my stack because "she likes being on top." She kept taking some and letting some ride, as we proceeded to win every hand up to the shuffle in a 2D game in decent counts. Was it worth it? You betcha. It was a small, out of the way place, where they don't get a whole lot of action, and I probably made her day. Would it have been the same at a mega-casino on the strip? Not a chance.
I Feel Your Pain Bro!
Posted by SammyBoy on 05-Nov-2003 09:27:49 (#5217)
I often wonder the same thing. I have not met a single counter and am petty much attacking this on my own. I have realized that I am not as good as I thought I was since learning AOII. I have been using Sage software and it will keep a running count as you play. I've noticed that I am making mistakes in addition or subtraction that I had no idea I was making. Now granted I am using a tougher count now than when I used Hi-Lo, but I'm sure I made some mistakes back then too. I have been practicing everyday for about 2 hours or more for nearly 2 weeks and I can really see the progress. The card values are now second nature to me and I'm able to do canceling of cards which really helps. I am always tough on myself when doing a self-evaluation, but right now I would have to rate myself a 6 on a scale of 1 to 10. I don't know if I have the mental ability to ever become a 10 (in my mind a ten would be someone that can memorize indices of 10 to -10 and carry on conversations and his act while keeping perfect count) but I can definitely make it to 8.5 or 9.
I really hope to play with you guys some day, that would be awesome!
Bigger spreads doesn't increase your win rate
Posted by AlexD30 on 05-Nov-2003 07:24:36 (#5206)
Bigger spreads doesn't increase your win rate. What it does, is increases the variance/standard deviation into your bank. If you want to make money using variance and if you have a very large bank that can absorb huge swings then what you can do sometime is to spread big while you have the edge but go back to your normal bet spread as soon as you get a large swing in your favor. But on the other hand you can have a big negative swing playing like that and in the long run they all balance out.
The most efficient way to play into this game is to bet optimally related to your bankroll. You have to be happy if you get 1.25% or 1.50% edge over the house in the long run. This edge can be accomplished by a moderate spread. You don't have to go nuts and bet the farm with 1:100 spread. It is not necessary to do that. A spread of 1:6 in double deck with S17 will get the money. Betting more then that is useless because you will only exchange chips back and forth between you and the dealer and in the end you will have almost the same results but with huge and unnecessary swings along the way.
I can't see the point of going thru large bankroll swings while having only a little effect on the win rate. A 1.25% edge is more then enough to make serious money in this game. You can even limit your spread to only increase the bet after a winning hand on the positive counts and still make plenty of money. If you only parlay a bet when you have the edge or repeat the last bet if you lost but still got the edge, or drop to one unit if the count is negative and you lost the last bet, it will get you a healthy income no matter what.
AlexD30
wow the other guy thought you were just rude
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Nov-2003 08:00:30 (#5210)
I guess your rude and a card counter who knows what he is talking about! Great post!
Re: wow the other guy thought you were just rude
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Nov-2003 08:30:57 (#5212)
Often the table limit will get in the way of placing the proper bet to bank ratio. That, the pit boss, or your nerves will........smile
Re: Bigger spreads doesn't increase your win rate
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Nov-2003 09:20:08 (#5215)
The optimal win rate also comes with a very high risk of ruin, over 13% -- full kelley. This has you continually increasing your bet in proportion to your advantage, with no regard for table limits.
The way to approach betting is to begin by figuring out your max bet, and the true count you want to place that bet at. Then try and get the largest spread possible with that as your fixed max bet.
For example, if my max bet is $100, then, playing for example 6 decks, I am much better off spreading 20-1 at a $5 table then 4-1 at a $25 table.
--Mayor
Re: Bigger spreads doesn't increase your win rate
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Nov-2003 11:33:34 (#5223)
"The optimal win rate also comes with a very high risk of ruin, over 13% -- full kelley."
13%? That is great compared to the divorce rate! ;>
"This has you continually increasing your bet in proportion to your advantage, with no regard for table limits."
You have to regard table limits. If your Kelly calls for a 5K bet and the table max is 2.5K you are stuck with it. Your RoR goes down, as does your variance. If you have two spots you can bet two squares and drop your RoR that way, and your variance when you should be betting more than 5K with two hands out, again, underbetting your edge.
Say WHAT?!
Posted by Sonny on 05-Nov-2003 11:33:14 (#5222)
> Bigger spreads doesn't increase your win rate. What it does, is increases the
> variance/standard deviation into your bank.
That's strange, all the books I've read say that having a large bet spread is one of the BEST ways to increase your win rate (other than playing faster). Most authors seem to be under the impression that betting bigger in positive counts will win more, while betting less in negative counts will lose less. Strange.
> You don't have to go nuts and bet the farm with 1:100 spread. It is not
> necessary to do that. A spread of 1:6 in double deck with S17 will get the
> money. Betting more then that is useless because you will only exchange chips
> back and forth between you and the dealer and in the end you will have almost
> the same results but with huge and unnecessary swings along the way.
It sounds like you may have this confused. If you FLAT bet you will be exchanging chips with the dealer without any real win rate. If you use a non-count based progression, you will be increasing your variance but not your win rate. However, a proper count based betting spread is the easiest way to beat the game. Back when Thorp was counting aces and fives he would beat the game with a big bet spread alone. His system was weak and he didn't have any playing deviations, but it worked becuase he knew when to throw out the big money.
I agree that a 1:100 bet spread is not necessary, but it is BETTER that a 1:6 spread (assuming you can afford it). A higher top bet WILL win more money. A lower bottom bet WILL lose less money.
> I can't see the point of going thru large bankroll swings while having only a
> little effect on the win rate. A 1.25% edge is more then enough to make
> serious money in this game.
Well, that is your opinion. If I am willing to accept (and can afford) a 30% risk-of-ruin, why should I not try for a huge spread? I could win MUCH more money and I will could be winning MUCH faster, as long as I don't go broke. Maybe a 1.25% edge is enough for you, but if I could get a higher win rate just by increasing my spread and still maintain an acceptable ROR, why not? Isn't that what Uston's teams did?
It's like Don says in BJA2, there is not one win rate applicable to all blackjack games. Different rules, different conditions, different systems and different spreads will all impact your edge over the house.
-Sonny-
Re: Say WHAT?!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Nov-2003 11:39:01 (#5224)
and different people willing to except different RoR. It is great to understand the math. When you are betting with money that you can afford to lose, I like to tell myself:
SELF?
Feel the fear, and do it anyways!
Do ya feel lucky?? Well do ya??
All on the right side of a posi EV,
Rob McGar V
0.60% edge over the house played with $500 unit
Posted by AlexD30 on 05-Nov-2003 15:08:12 (#5231)
A small edge of 0.60% edge over the house while playing with average $500 is going to give you more money as income then a 2.75% edge played with green chips or even black chips (i.e. $25 or $100).
If you play red chips of $5 each you need the biggest edge that you can get to be able to make any decent money. On the other hand I only need a small edge of 0.50% to 0.60% to make serious money in this game. A modest spread on big denomination chips will generate a greater income if you can handle big action and IF you are good enough to accomplish that small edge over the house.
What you need is this:
1. Big bankroll, probably 1,000 units or more
2. Hi-Lo or any valid card counting system
3. Play the hands by the index, probably I18 or more will suffice
4. 2 Deck game with S17, DAS and LS
5. Bet spread of 1:3 or 1:4 (enough for 0.60% edge)
6. Be cool under pressure
7. Get in the long run ASAP
All of the above will generate a $300/hour INCOME as your EV in the long run.
AlexD30
Re: 0.60% edge is for beginners
Posted by Sonny on 05-Nov-2003 22:48:14 (#5246)
> If you play red chips of $5 each you need the biggest edge that you can get
> to be able to make any decent money. On the other hand I only need a small
> edge of 0.50% to 0.60% to make serious money in this game. A modest spread on
> big denomination chips will generate a greater income if you can handle big
> action and IF you are good enough to accomplish that small edge over the
> house.
So instead of using my huge bet spread at low stakes I should use a tiny spread with high stakes to reduce my variance? That doesn't quite float with me.
If I am using a large spread that gives me a 1.5% advantage with a $25 average bet, my hourly EV should be around $37.50. Now if I play with a modest spread that gives me a 0.6% edge with a $63 average bet, I will still be making $37.80 an hour, but my variance has skyrocketed! One standard deviation with my low stakes play is around $275 (using the 1.1*SQRT(100 hands) formula, which is a bit lower than the true SD but will work for comparison purposes). One SD with the lower spread and higher bet has now reached around $693! And that's only ONE SD, only about 63% of the time!
That sucks. Not only am I not earning as much as I could be, but I am risking much more money to earn it. Obviously this is a very simplified example, but I think the comparison is valid.
> What you need is this:
> 1. Big bankroll, probably 1,000 units or more
Since when is 1,000 units a big bankroll? A lot of players I know like to have at least 150 top bets behind them. If your top bet is 8 units, that's 1200 units right there. I think a nickel player with a $5000 bankroll may still be under-funded in many cases.
> 4. 2 Deck game with S17, DAS and LS
I think I only saw this game offered in a casino once, but I woke up before I could play :)
> 5. Bet spread of 1:3 or 1:4 (enough for 0.60% edge)
Unless you're bumping up against house limits, you might as well press a little higher in a 2-deck game. If dropping your bottom bet draws too much heat, take a few bathroom/phone call breaks. There is no reason an experienced and intelligent card counter like you should be settling for a 0.6% win rate.
> 6. Be cool under pressure
Like a cucumber, baby!
> 7. Get in the long run ASAP
I've been trying to for the past three years :) I guess I'm more of a sprinter than a distance runner; I keep getting winded!
-Sonny-
0.60% edge is for beginners ? --- OK, no problem!
Posted by AlexD30 on 06-Nov-2003 05:35:24 (#5247)
Read Ian Anderson's "Burning the tables in Las Vegas" and see for yourself what edge he is looking for. Or, run John Auston's BJRM software and look for an edge of 0.60% played on a bank that has $500 average bet and see how much is the income per hour.
After you do those two things I suspect that you will reconsider that thing " ... for beginners"
AlexD30
Re: 0.60% edge is for beginners ? --- OK, no problem!
Posted by Learning to count on 06-Nov-2003 07:21:22 (#5249)
A $500 unit is a heck of a bet. AT .60 you will make some dinero... a lot of dinero! Whew mind boggling! The bank roll would have to be close 3/4 of a million and that's not round checks either. Can I just play with your bankroll or could I swim in it it for five minutes...please please. If I was your dealer would you tip me a blue chip every so often for smiling at you and acting like I want to discuss your personal problems? WHew this is out of my league. Thanks for contributing to the site. I have already learned a great deal form your posts!!!!!! : )
Re: 0.60% edge is for beginners ? --- OK, no problem!
Posted by Count Luckula on 06-Nov-2003 09:37:30 (#5256)
LTC, did you really mean three-quarters of a million? My guess is that Alex is working w/ much more than that. And what's that, are you advocating tipping? For shame...
Sonny, there's a huge difference between what Alex is talking about and what most other people on this site are talking about. For the red chip player, even small green chip player, you need all the advantage you can get. I wouldn't even bother w/ cover plays. It's not worth it. There are better ways to avoid notice. For the purple chip player, you can afford to sacrifice a lot of your advantage for the sake of cover. It becomes necessary, because from the moment you place that first bet, tons of eyes are watching you. The one caveat is that you'll need a massive, and I mean massive, bankroll. The smaller spread on a 2D game with favorable rules will help to reduce the increased variance of a large bet size. Ponder this - there are BJ games out there that can be beaten without changing your bet size. There are a lot of different ways to approach playing and betting, but one things remains the same. You need a sufficient bankroll.
Back to the point here
Posted by Sonny on 06-Nov-2003 11:24:06 (#5264)
> Sonny, there's a huge difference between what Alex is talking about and what
> most other people on this site are talking about...For the purple chip
> player, you can afford to sacrifice a lot of your advantage for the sake of
> cover...The one caveat is that you'll need a massive, and I mean massive,
> bankroll. The smaller spread on a 2D game with favorable rules will help to
> reduce the increased variance of a large bet size.
I don't think that anyone is arguing about cover here, or the lower variance of smaller spreads. The original post was about how larger bet spreads don't increase win rates, which I don't accept. The idea that "Betting more then that [1:6 in DD s17] is useless because you will only exchange chips back and forth between you and the dealer and in the end you will have almost the same results but with huge and unnecessary swings along the way" does not fly with me. Although a larger spread may not increase you win rate by much it will compound over time, and by lowering your small bets instead of raising your big bets you are actually REDUCING variance.
The original post seems to advocate smaller spreads at higher stakes. I don't think that this is the way to reduce variance. Although it may be necessary for cover purposes, a larger spread at lower stakes can get the same win rate with less variance. I never said that a smaller spread wouldn't get the money, just that a larger spread is better.
Although the post mentions a sensible 1:6 spread for DD S17, anything lower than this that doesn't include some form of Wonging will raise your risk-of-ruin to a dangerous level for such a small rate of earnings.
Of course, if I was pulling in the loot like Dr. AlexD30, this wouldn't bother me either! Wow, a guy who's rolling in money and has a boatload of experience playing at high stakes with the masters. Maybe we've found a replacement for good ol' ZenGrifter!
-Sonny-
Re: Back to the point here
Posted by Count Luckula on 06-Nov-2003 13:05:07 (#5266)
Sonny,
you're definitely right. The larger the spread, the higher your expectation. That's the whole point of wonging - by spreading to zero when the remaining cards are not favorable. If you're playing all, the best way to maximize your EV is to base your max bets on your bankroll and desired ROR, and then spread down to as small of a bet as you can get away with. Assuming the same bet spreads in favorable counts, you will decrease your variance by spreading to smaller bets when the counts become unfavorable.
I haven't seen it, but I've heard of somebody spreading from $20k to 0, i.e. flat betting only in positive counts. Talk about variance.
Imagine swimming in all that dough!
Posted by Learning to count on 06-Nov-2003 13:33:57 (#5268)
At a minimum 3/4 of mil would be needed! AND AS FAR AS THE TIP HEY I'M GREEDY. I can see where anyone will would want big tips. As far as tipping Fug em!
Re: totally agree sonny! *NM*
Posted by Mister M on 06-Nov-2003 09:31:06 (#5254)
Huh?
Posted by walkingdood on 05-Nov-2003 21:05:54 (#5244)
The following from BJRM:
Game: 4.5 of 6D, S17, das, LS, hilo, play all
Bank: $25,000
ROR: 1.8% (half Kelly)
Spread 1-6
Unit-$17.91
Win rate per 100 hands-$23.28
standard deviation per 100 hands $543
SCORE- 18.49
Spread 1-12
Unit-$15.78
Win rate per 100 hands-$41.19
standard deviation per 100 hands $718
SCORE- 32.83
Spread 1-25
Unit: $11.07
W/100: $55.46
SD/100: $834
Score: $44.09
Spread 1-50
Unit: $7.15
W/100: $63.99
SD/100: $896
Score: $50.98
Spread: 1-100
Unit: $4.31
W/100: $69.18
SD/100: $932
Score: $55.06
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#5208)
....and your point?????????????????? *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Nov-2003 07:57:00 (#5209)
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#5233)
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#5235)
Re: Sorry
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Nov-2003 09:25:27 (#5253)
One of my Dad's favorite says is "I may not always be right, but I am never wrong." smile
RoR is a mathematical concept. If you continue to bet $500 with a .6% edge after your roll shrinks, yes, you may go broke. As long as you resize your bets to the fluctuation of the bankroll, your RoR is .000000000000000000000000001. If you have 1,000,000 units, you don't care about this, but you should be dug into better things than playing BJ.
When you have $4 and the table min is $5, you are done. There will be a point where it will not be worth your while to play if your BR tanks. You'd be better off working at McDicks. Many players will never have a BR to effectively play BJ with. Some only have a trip stake at best. That's life. You may have wanted to be a doctor as much as you do a pro BJ player, but unless you can "pack the gear to play in my beloved corp" yur just whistlin dixie.
Take a look below at the SD for a 1-6 vs a 1-100......it only doubles.
Thank god for bjrm!
Posted by Learning to count on 06-Nov-2003 13:36:37 (#5269)
Thats the only thing I regret about my education not learning advanced math and stats. Thats why I use BJRM!
Questions from a Vegas Virgin
Posted by CowboyKO on 05-Nov-2003 18:56:11 (#5239)
I have an upcoming trip to Las Vegas soon and have a few questions:
I am a red chip player traveling with a trip bankroll of approx. $1200 for Fri, Sat, and Sun. I am staying downtown to play the SD and DD and maybe some 6D at the Golden Nugget. I am currently using the KO system and have been for about a year now. One thing I have found is that wonging into shoe games takes far too much time i.e. with IRC of -20 one has to wait until count gets to -4 before joining a table to have any sort of advantage. Has anyone found a better way to approach wonging using this system? I have read the Mayor's comments that Hi-Lo is superior to KO when it comes to 6D, but in Vancura and Fuch's book they state that the KO system outperforms Hi-Lo no matter the number of decks. Any comments on this Mayor?
Also, what does the community think about playing where you stay? Should you sit down and play aggressively at a downtown casino where they already have your personal information from your room reservation? This is also my first trip to LV and only my fifth time counting in a real casino environment. My other experiences were with six deckers at an Indian casino. What would you all consider to be a respectable spread for red chip play on downtown games? I was thinking a bet of 1 at RC < 1, 2 @ RC of 1, 3 at RC of 2, 4 units at RC of 3, 5 units at RC of +4, and spreading to two hands of 5 units for any counts higher than this. Do you think that this type of spread is too aggressive for red chip play if I limit jumping my bet up and down when the count shifts quickly?
I have a subscription to trackjack and have an idea or where I want to play. I have never received significant heat during any of my counting sessions and was wondering if the Mayor or anyone else would recommend playing at El Cortez or any of the other high heat venues to gain some experience with dealing with attention from the floor?
I have also read all of the communities' comments on casino harassment and their right to ask someone for ID if they believe he or she is counting. I understand that they cannot legally do this unless they suspect you of doing something illegal. The catch for me is that I do not look like I am 21 and am still carded consistently at liquor stores meaning that floor personnel could ask for my ID using the pretense that I look underage if they suspect me of counting. What should I do in such a situation or am I just being paranoid about this?
Thank you all for any advice.
CowboyKO
Re: Questions from a Vegas Virgin
Posted by Learning to count on 06-Nov-2003 08:38:13 (#5251)
Hey just off the top of my head. Go find a deeply penetrated game less than a deck of a 6 deck shoe and wong wong wong. Make $10 flats bets and see where it goes. Walk the strip and hit every casino. Your young the excercise wont kill you. If you want play every 2/3 single deck downtown and spread 1-5 you wont get hurt doing this. Make sure you get 5 rounds or better dealt to you and the dealer will continue to do so if you play two hands. AT this rate you could have a blast. Play every session with a hundred dollar session limit and of course limit your time at single deck to no more than an hour if your winning. Just keep moving. Its fun. I think your playing at a 13% ROR though with such a small BR. I will check on BJRM to see. Have fun!
Hello, and a few questions right out of the gate.
Posted by DoctorJames on 06-Nov-2003 08:03:46 (#5250)
I have been furtively studying basic strategy, and the Hi-Lo count now for about 3 months. I had basic strategy charts for about 2 years now but only now are they starting to make sense, and only now am I confident in their truth. I play basic strategy 98% accurate for 2 hours playing 150 hph on www.blackinfo.com 's training software (I am wondering what is a realistic accuracy with basic strategy, what should I expect out of myself as a young player?). Anyway... lets get to brass tax =)
I have looked in many casino directories and indeed have found very complete lists of casinos in my area. However I am finding it difficult to find the rules for the games offered before I go ( I am probably asking too much ). Going to the Casino's web-site is pointless. I am curious if I have overlooked some publication or web-site that has these places scoped out. I have already accepted the fact I will be dealing with a -0.6 or so expectation.I like to play about 8-10 hours a week and over 2 years (for some reason I have kept a running total of money in and out) I am about even. Also I am interested in playing tournaments, I believed that Bjinsider.com had tournament listings but they are the big ones. I was wondering where I could find local Bj tournament listings if they exist.
Thank you very much for the information on this web-site and board, I am finding it very usefull. Next time I will write up a profile, but since I am at work my time is limited, but yes... I am technically getting paid to learn to play blackjack. God Bless the Internet !
Re: Hello, and a few questions right out of the gate.
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Nov-2003 13:59:15 (#5272)
>I have been furtively studying basic strategy, and the Hi-Lo count now for about 3 months. I had basic strategy charts for about 2 years now but only now are they starting to make sense, and only now am I confident in their truth. I >play basic strategy 98% accurate for 2 hours playing 150 hph on www.blackinfo.com 's training software (I am wondering what is a realistic accuracy with basic strategy, what should I expect out of myself as a young player?).
If you are less than 100% accurate on SOME basic strategy (choose the game, then learn that strategy), then you are not near good enough. You should make no mistakes, ever, at basic strategy. My guess is that you miss a few splits, a few of the soft-double downs, A-7 in general, and maybe 12 vs. 2 and 3.
>I have looked in many casino directories and indeed have found very complete lists of casinos in my area. However I am finding it difficult to find the rules for the games offered before I go ( I am probably asking too much ).
I call up the casinos -- ask to speak to the blackjack pit. I do this all the time.
>Going to the Casino's web-site is pointless. I am curious if I have overlooked some publication or web-site that has these places scoped out. I have already accepted the fact I will be dealing with a -0.6 or so expectation.
Go to bj21.com and download a copy of cbjn (casino blackjack news). It costs less than $15, and it will tell you the rules just about everywhere in the U.S. and many places abroad.
> I like to play about 8-10 hours a week and over 2 years (for some reason I have kept a running total of money in and out) I am about even.
This means you have lost 8-)
Glad to have you on board, best wishes for your success!
--Mayor
Re: Hello, and a few questions right out of the gate.
Posted by DoctorJames on 07-Nov-2003 02:59:21 (#5287)
Thanks for the response Mayor !
I do have trouble remembering which soft totals to double on, and which are just hits... against dealer cards 3-6 and so on. Sometimes I don't miss but now and again thats what gets me.
And yes for 2 years I have been playing a loosing game, and have finally made up my mind to learn to win. Thanks to web-sites like yours and www.bj21.com I feel I actually have a chance to take a loosing game (basic strategy) into a winning game ! =)
My current routine is to go through my flash cards for about 30 minutes each day, and then during lulls in my work day I go through them. I also have my roomate deal hands at the kitchen table and double check my decisions, and I do the same for him. In addition to that I use the strategy trainer on www.blackjackinfor.com for about an hour or two a day depending on free time. I recognize that most people struggle with soft totals and splits, and i just have to keep at it to nail it, however, I was curious if anyone has a cool trick that they use to remember the tuff ones or should I just petition God for a photographic memory ? =)
Thanks Again !
Re: Hello, and a few questions right out of the gate.
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Nov-2003 10:14:39 (#5294)
If you practice your indices in a game setting, then you don't see the difficult hands enough to make a difference in your learning.
Use flash cards. Go through them about 3 times very fast. Any you miss, put in a separate pile. Then, take that pile in a group of 3 cards and do that till you have no problem. Every day add 3 cards to the pile that you know, and learn those. Do NOT add more than 3 cards a day to your pile. After you have mastered all the indices you did not know, put everything back in the big pile, go through them 3 times very fast pulling out the ones you don't know. Repeat...
I use the above scheme all the time when learning indices.
--Mayor
Less precise estimates win more money (long)
Posted by Alex on 06-Nov-2003 14:10:20 (#5273)
This is the reason why: I already know for long time that there is practically no difference if you deliberately use the wrong index, off by one point or so. In live games I use half a deck estimates in 2D, not for any greater accuracy, but it is usually easy because of the few cards in the discard tray compared to the shoe game. I usually divide the RC by 2 until a clear half deck is in the discard tray, then by 1.5, and after that point I just use the RC when there is about a full deck dealt. Usually the penetration is not good enough to place excessive worry on getting more accurate than that. If you do have good penetration then it may be worth going to quarter decks into second half while playing a 2D game.
Using less precise deck estimation and being conservative on the numbers of decks dealt is like using RA (risk averse) index without having to learn them. All of the hit/stand, double down, and split indexes automatically will be pushed up a little. We did a study and come up with the conclusion that less precise estimates win more $$.
Another point that I would like to make is that you guys have got to pay attention to this concept: If you cannot get enough "edge" over the house to make a decent income then don't worry and go crazy with bigger spreads to accomplish that. Just use the POWER of your bankroll to do just that. Play with a smaller edge but with bigger denomination chips. Mathematically it has been proven that this professional technique is working great and is harder to be detected too. For example: If you need to make $100 per hour or $100,000 per year as a full time income then you have to play with a 1.0% edge and have an average bet of $100 per hand. Now, to do that, you figure in your sims that the game in question has got to be attacked with a 1:6 spread in order to generate that a 1.0% edge. Wow, a 1:6 spread is a huge spread, and if you have a problem applying that spread in real games then you start playing and thinking like a pro does. Reduce the spread until the sims tells you that you have 0.50% edge and then bet into that game with $200 average bets. If, for the 0.50% your sims tells you that you still have to spread to 1:3 and if you find that to be a problem then you got to run the sims again and find out what spread gives you 0.25% edge over the house. Let's say that 1:2 gives you a 0.25% edge. So, How much should your average be? --- $400 per hand! Play with that average and you will make the same amount of money in the long run like the player that is struggling with 1:6 spread while betting $100 average. You see, the pro way is to use the power of your bank unit to make the same income with a much smaller edge and obviously with a much smaller spread too. This gives you longevity in business, while your income is the same. Now, if you don't have the bank then you have to be happy with less income per hour applying the same principle. Don't get upset by the edge. Adjust the average bet to make up for!
Hope that my point about using the deck estimation for TC conversion and the concept of chip denomination related to the edge will open up some new ways for you guys to attack this game.
AlexD30
PS: Now, our great host "The Mayor" is a PhD in mathematics, he is a accomplished computer programmer and most important for all of us is that is a pro BJ player. He can give some light into this issue if he so desire. We all will benefit from it. I guess.
Re: Less precise estimates win more money (long)
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Nov-2003 14:50:05 (#5275)
Great post -- thanks for your nice comments about me, but they won't lure me into contributing much to your excellent post. I just want to point out an essay I wrote a while back, which has a similar theme -- that we worry too much about precision:
http://www.cardcounter.com/Essays/Mistakes.htm
I am not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that less accurate play results in a higher win rate EV). Fewer errors? But, I know many pros that do what you are advocating, e.g. on double deck they either use the original numbers or double those numbers at the 1-deck point. Similarly on single deck at the 1/2 deck point. Although the win rate is not higher, your point that the by using this method, the indices are pushed up towards their RA values, does reduce variance, which increases the DI of the game. That is, though EV is reduced a bit by using this scheme, SD is reduced even more, making the ratio EV/SD higher.
Now, on your thesis that we should raise our minimum bet to accomplish our income goals, with a fixed bankroll, your comments completely avoid the issue of increased variance and ROR, and are EV related only. With sufficient bankroll, such issues are not relevant, but the 100k bankroll you gave is insufficient for a $400 min bet on a weak game with a weak spread.
There is a program called BJRM (Blackjack Risk Manager) that very precisely tells you bet size for income goals, given specific game advantages and risk tolerance. Great little program.
--Mayor
Re: Less precise estimates win more money (long)
Posted by Alex on 06-Nov-2003 15:58:19 (#5276)
I agree with you totally about the bankroll. The bank has got to have the right number of average bets to get you even less then 1% ROR. Over 1,000 average bets will do a great job. For a bank of 100K I would say that a steady income of $60/hour is easy achievable even in a 0.60% edge if your average bet is $100. Now, if you play a 1:2.5 spread that probably will give you a 0.60% edge and make $60/hour as a full time player but that will be depending how many hours you can play per year. I suspect you can earn a little less then 100K/year as income. Now, of course, you can spread more and get a bigger edge but how about if you get barred from playing and run out of places? I think you are better off to build your bank and play with less spread and smaller edge but with bigger chips and make same money in the long run.
AlexD30
PS: Now, Mayor, How I post under the name of AlexD30? I created a profile and now if I use the AlexD30 it says that the password is not correct. What is my password? I don't know what password I have. Can you give me a password?
Calling 911 For Ed! ???
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 06-Nov-2003 19:38:24 (#5283)
Talk to us ol' buddy. Are you still kickin'? We sorry!
I think we may need Vitoria's soft spoken words this time. Little help here Vicky.???
Stealth
Re: Calling 911 For Ed! ???
Posted by Victoria on 07-Nov-2003 14:19:34 (#5300)
Hey!! My grandmother calls me Vicki, think she is the only one.
Whoops not quite that soft touch, sorry.
I guess it is understandable perhaps. Disagreement on posts is natural for a board like this, statements about being a casino spy and I might also say screw it and leave. Ed if you are out there, there are those who want you back.
Ground Control to Major ED
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 07-Nov-2003 14:55:48 (#5305)
Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do
Regarding AlexD30
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Nov-2003 22:52:47 (#5285)
I just finished reading many of the posts by AlexD30 on the Green Chip boards at bj21.com. Because of those posts, I have asked management to not allow him to continue posting here. I will leave it to management to decide.
If you are wondering what the posts contain, you should join Green Chip to find out!
--Mayor
WOW! That bad huh???? *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 06-Nov-2003 23:07:27 (#5286)
Re: Regarding AlexD30
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 07-Nov-2003 07:55:06 (#5291)
Isn't this the old AC79/Puiu/Sonia in a better english (and male) posting mode?
Re: Regarding AlexD30
Posted by Learning to count on 07-Nov-2003 10:35:15 (#5295)
This is why I subscribe to BJ21. After the notice by the Mayor and management I checked out the archives and past posts at BJ21. I guess this piui/sonia person was a real problem. Wow and I thought we had link to the past in card counting history. Good call Mayor.
What a Shame!
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Nov-2003 11:53:47 (#5297)
I also thought we had true blue oldtimer on board. Just goes to show you things are not always what they seem on the internet.
Re: Regarding AlexD30
Posted by Sonny on 07-Nov-2003 12:20:33 (#5299)
> Of course, if I was pulling in the loot like Dr. AlexD30, this wouldn't
> bother me either! Wow, a guy who's rolling in money and has a boatload of
> experience playing at high stakes with the masters. Maybe we've found a
> replacement for good ol' ZenGrifter!
>
> -Sonny-
Wow, I guess I was right in more ways than I thought!
-Sonny-
Re: Regarding AlexD30
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 07-Nov-2003 14:31:48 (#5302)
Hahahahahaha!! too funny.
Walks like a counter, talks like a counter.........
Re: Regarding AlexD30
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 07-Nov-2003 14:53:47 (#5304)
In your opinion, what is Alex's agenda? There must be purpose to such intensity.
Rob
Regarding our policy
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Management on 07-Nov-2003 06:06:25 (#5288)
Our Policy is to maintain the security of the intellectual input to this site. As our policy maintains this site is devoted the search for knowledge of scientific card counting and not any belief in luck. We are devoted to educate anyone who wants to learn the science of card counting. We do not allow any discussions of progressions, flow of the cards, the feeling you are going to win etc.. The Mayor is the sites consultant, expert and Guru if you may. We have confirmed certain attempts to cause a disturbance here at the site and we have confirmed the Mayors evidence on this issue. We retain the right to bar anyone who will not adhere to these rules.
Anti-Progressionists Unite!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 07-Nov-2003 14:50:54 (#5303)
There is no way for a progresssssssssssssion to beat a game with a negative EV. When a game goes posi EV, we can make bets that are below, equal to, or greater than the + EV. It has been proven mathematically that you should bet equal to your EV for your bankroll to grow the quickest. If you so chose to change your bets while in the posi EV, do not mention same to your brothers in blackjack unless you can convince them it makes for good cover.
Any other doctrine is not permitted.
As it is spoken, so shall it be done.
Mayor
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-Nov-2003 13:54:21 (#5367)
I assume you have read SW's book re Tourney playing, using "p" of 1/7 of BR or 1/3 of BR or the all in bust-out bets. Do you agree that there is a time and a place for "p" outside of normal terrestrial blackjack playing?
Re: Mayor
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Nov-2003 10:23:46 (#5390)
Ahh but in this case a progression in this case is to extend plaing ife in a game which is not measured in the long run for EV. A progression will normally destroy you in a normal grind. At tourney play the objective is to win first place and the prize. In card counting you are playing for EV in an extended if not a life time situation. SO progressions are for tournaments not true card counting. Thus progressions are still useless to thIs site and to true CARD COUNTERS.
Agree
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 13-Nov-2003 10:55:20 (#5391)
LTC. I just want to instill into peoples minds that when they hear the big "p" word that it has its place in advantage play. Not all advantage play is BJ, nor BJ advantage play.
I guess the Mayor is still trying to get his rubber gloves on to answer the question. Thanks LTC for getting the dirt under your nails! ;>
I agree but progressions are....
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Nov-2003 11:13:11 (#5392)
Basically ignorant approaches to ignorant degenerate gambling. I dont tournament play because the objective can be very difficult with a large entry list. Ther are far more interesting ADVANTAGE PLAY situations out there any way!
Re: I agree but progressions are....
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 13-Nov-2003 14:11:25 (#5397)
I think that everyone should make their own mind up about tournies. A year or so ago I got into some online ones for free and made some nice money. I'm always looking for more shrimp on my plate LTC. List your fave advantage playing games if you don't mind.
Re: I agree but progressions are....
Posted by Learning to count on 14-Nov-2003 05:59:00 (#5405)
I play (deleted), and I made a lot of money at (deleted) and sometimes find an advantage playing (deleted) only if the dealer is a (deleted). ;) Loose lips sink ships!
Ghost Ships
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-Nov-2003 10:39:18 (#5413)
Oh come on. You can tell us what your advantage play is (if any) without sinking it. Be creative.
NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 14-Nov-2003 12:46:03 (#5419)
Once Upon a Time
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-Nov-2003 14:09:43 (#5420)
you were learning to count. You've come a long way baybay!!
Re: Once Upon a Time
Posted by Learning to count on 15-Nov-2003 07:05:50 (#5430)
I'm still learning. knowledge is never ending.
Re: Regarding our policy
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-Nov-2003 14:22:56 (#5369)
Right now the Card Counters Cafe is set so that all new posters posts are moderated. This was due to a whack of scoundrel posts to crazy index.htm's, but has also recently caught Keith Smith, who is a worker bee of E. Clifton Davis from good old "Camp Clumper." Month after month I argued with them at their headquaters site trying to tell them that if a game is not random a counter will know it, and bet it properly with proper deviations based on the count, and that there is no other way to take the game down. They did not want to hear that because it didn't go along with the 2K price tag for the next version of ECD's latest progression to go with their version of BS, which in some cases was rather close to plays for minus shoes and plus shoes ala Ken Uston's Simple Plus Minus count. By telling people the info is already available, they got pissed at me.
Under certain circumstances, ie a tourney or online, we are working with a FINITE series of events, not the long run play that is required for terrestrial BJ. That is the only time the big "P" word should not be considered blasphemy. All other progressionists should not pass go, not get $200, and go straight to hell in a hand basket.
Playing Blackjack online and related expectation questions.
Posted by DoctorJames on 07-Nov-2003 07:15:30 (#5290)
I have never played at an online based casino. I have been looking at the games offered though and I have a few questions. Most of them have terrible penetration. Like shuffling after each round etc... I know this kills the counter's advantage, at least as far as I understand. I am assuming that it does not effect expectation with Basic Strategy though.
Next question is, how much do rules such as the number of times you can resplit, and whether you can re-split aces affect expectation ? www.blackjackinfo.com 's strategy engine does not have those options for changing, so I am assuming it is a minimal change. But I have a distaste for assumptions, expectation is a different story... =)
Re: Playing Blackjack online and related expectation questions.
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Nov-2003 10:11:18 (#5293)
Many of the games you are describing sound like the Microgaming software rules. A complete and accurate basic strategy for these games is described at www.wizardofodds.com .
I do not suggest you play these games unless you are bonus hustling.
--Mayor
Where's Rob E MacGravey?
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Nov-2003 11:59:29 (#5298)
I'm surprised he is not all over this one. :-)
IBM
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 07-Nov-2003 14:28:11 (#5301)
Hi DJ. Your edge comes from playing the bonus. Imagine going to a casino, putting $100 on the table and they gave you $200 in chips! All you have to do is sit and play the minimum bet all day and you can walk away with your buy in and their bonus. Well, that is what happens when you play online. Stack 2000 of these casinos end to end and you'll be very busy making money. In fact, you will not have enough time to play all of these bonuses because there is an unlimited supply of them. We can pick choose and refuse these offers there are so many. Not all are worthy, but many of them are.
I have an online team, the IBM, Internet Blackjack Mafia, and we take $$ from both sides of these casinos. They want your business so bad they will pay for it. They pay me to bring them new players, and I pay you for using my links.
Sorry Sammy, didn't drop by til now. Thanks for thinking of me!
DJ, email this addy if you want to join the team:
internetblackjackmafia@rogers.com
Re: IBM
Posted by DoctorJames on 08-Nov-2003 08:27:21 (#5308)
Thanks again for the responses. Rob I will get back to you in about 6 months re: joining your team, Unless you give me a good reason why not to wait. From what I have seen I would need to wager between 1,500 - 2,500 to cash out these bonuses. At this point I am not ready to do that in addition to my land based (expenses), but as I said, I would happy to take some money from the net casinos in the future! =)
--paging dr. james, dr. james hamilton to the front desk please...
2K
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-Nov-2003 09:01:22 (#5359)
For how long would you have to bet your present BR for an expected return of 2K? That is the answer to your question. Part of it.
For how long would you have to bet your present BR for an expected return of 2K AFTER the variance is taken account for so you have 100% certainty of being ahead by 2K?
How about 20K? 50K? 100K?
Math questions for the imaginative person traped inside the confines of your own intelligence. ;>
Rob
Re: 2K
Posted by DoctorJames on 13-Nov-2003 01:47:35 (#5386)
Lay it out for me Rob ! I follow what your saying. I am not as quick with numbers as I would like to be but I have read enough to know that if I played with an average bet of 12$ with an average advantage of 1.25%, 50 hands an hour, 5-60$ bet spread, with a 3k bankroll I would make like 20 an hour, and if I could play 200 hands an hour for 40 hours a week at that same set of circumstances then I might be somewhere around 57.6k a year... So tell me what I need to do this, how often I need to play, and how to get around the fact that the Washington State G@mbling C0mission states that online betting is against Federal and State Law... ;-) Maybe a you need to e-mail me ?
Dont mind my excitment.
Posted by DoctorJames on 07-Nov-2003 07:59:08 (#5292)
Forgive my bombardment of questions here, I am a bit pumped to have found this community of Players.
Was wondering... The game is 6 deck, H17, Double Any, NoDaS, No Surrender. Penetration varies, from 65%-80% or so.
Using the Hi-Lo count, a bet spread from $5-$60, how much more of an advantage is it to play a 2 dollar table and adjust the beat spread so that at TC of -1 and Even the bet was 2 dollars vs. playing the 5-60 dollar betting schedule at the 5 dollar table ?
The True Blue Newb.
Re: Dont mind my excitment.
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Nov-2003 11:01:27 (#5296)
The difference between a min bet of $2 and a min bet of $5 is negligible compared to effects of the quality of the game. 6 decks, NDAS, H17, mediocre penetration. This is a horrible game.
Rather than dropping to a min bet of $2, in negative counts you should leave the table and watch another freshly dealt shoe. In this game, your only effective strategy is table hopping to find those shoes with decent penetration, and then to only play them in positive counts.
--Mayor
Re: Dont mind my excitment.
Posted by DoctorJames on 08-Nov-2003 08:32:54 (#5309)
Sadly Mayor this game is the most common in my area. Actually I have not yet seen another. There might have been like a 4 deck game at the EQC but it had a $25 min. which is beyound my game/bankroll at this point. Ah well, Next week I am going to d/l that CBJN and find out where I will need to travel to in order to find decent action.
jokers
Posted by Bill on 07-Nov-2003 16:35:51 (#5307)
One of the casinos started in central asia promotion on blackjack.
They placed 2 jokers which makes only players card 21 no effect on dealeres card,and surrender on every card(2,3,4,5 card total).Whats going to be the house advanteage if I play only flat and basic strategy?THE RULES are 6d-SO17-DOA-60% PEN-Waiting for your recomendations thanks.
Are Dealers on Average this dumb?
Posted by DoctorJames on 08-Nov-2003 08:42:07 (#5310)
Going on the topic of Progessionisms, and other lines of falicy (not phalicy). I had a dealer tonight at my local card room suggest that I use a progression system, and actually *boggle* took time to try and explain and convince me to do it. I have found that very few dealers around here know basic stratedgy, especially when I am hitting a soft 18, and they skip me... and I know that even fewer of them know how to count. I hear them talk about flow, and taking the bust card, and if I owned the casino I would like that. ;-} For the most part I find it funny, but is this the norm in your parts of town, or in Vegas ?
I would think someone in that enviroment 8 or more hours a day would know better, especially if they are trained to "spot" counters ????
Most dealers are ignorant
Posted by LVBear584 on 08-Nov-2003 14:59:04 (#5311)
I would think someone in that enviroment 8 or more hours a day would know better, especially if they are trained to "spot" counters ????
Dealers are not trained to spot counters. They are trained only on the mechanics of dealing the game.
For example, the Mohave Community College in Bullhead City, AZ has a dealer training course that provides virtually all the new dealers for the Laughlin casinos. The class is six weeks in length, and the class workbook is about 75 pages. There is nothing in the book or in the class presentation about simple basic strategy, let alone any forms of advantage play, other than outright cheating, such as capping bets.
The Mohave Community College program is considered one of the best, so I imagine that the quickie, for-profit grind-them-out type schools in Las Vegas are even less thorough. Some students have not even played casino games in their lives, so have no preconceived ideas. If they have played, it was as a ploppy, with all the same superstitious voodoo nonsense that most ploppies believe in.
Casino personnel are taught things on a "need to know" basis. The dealer needs to know how to keep the game moving, how to yell "Checks play" at times set by casino policy, and how to yell "Floor" if there is any problem. Anything else is unnecessary.
Though some will pick up things on their own, if interested and motivated, most are merely there to put in their eight hours, and get a paycheck. To most, it is merely a dull, boring, repetitive factory job. The ones to watch out for are the ones who want to move up into supervision or casino management. They are the ones motivated enough to learn extra things, usually on their own. Once they have that casino mindset, they mirror the casino management's view of wanting every patron to lose every penny they have. If they know correct advice, they certainly won't tell a player. And they cartainly won't be above outright lying to a player. Lying to customers is simply a part of casino employment.
Remember that for most, it's "just a job" -- they don't care to know more.
Re: Are Dealers on Average this dumb?
Posted by CougIt on 09-Nov-2003 03:31:19 (#5312)
This is a post of mine from an earlier thread that I felt was appropriate:
<<Two months ago I had the following occur. Playing two hands and end up w/ 20 and 18 against the dealer's 18. Dealer pays both bets, scoops the cards into the discard tray and comments, "I should have pushed you on that 18, instead of paying you."
I acted surprised and said, "Won't the cameras catch it?" His response was, "I don't care if they do." To which I said, "Well I sure don't want to get you in any trouble." His reply, "They can't get me into trouble, I've been working here too long.">>
Re: Are Dealers on Average this dumb?
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 10-Nov-2003 10:19:57 (#5320)
After I first started playing I used to test dealers on BS all the time. Just ask the dealer: "what does the book say?" the next time you are "thinking" about splitting 9's against a 9, or doubling an A,3 against a 4 in a shoe game. Many will tell you not to split the 9's and to double the A,3. Most will just admit they don't know.
Ignorance is the norm.
I did come across a dealer who was counting at the H-shoe once.
Re: Are Dealers on Average this dumb?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 10-Nov-2003 15:57:34 (#5324)
How did you know the dealer was counting? What happened? More! More! ???
Stealth
Re: Are Dealers on Average this dumb?
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 11-Nov-2003 07:53:05 (#5333)
There was another lady at the table. She doubled on an 11 and drew a low card. The dealer said, Wow, into a plus five count, too. His count was correct, it was, in fact at plus five.
Re: Are Dealers on Average this dumb?
Posted by DoctorJames on 13-Nov-2003 01:40:37 (#5385)
Amazing... Maybe you could send that dealer my way... ? =P Except I think I would have to say, "Plus five ?? what does that mean ?"
Re: Are Dealers on Average this dumb?
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 13-Nov-2003 12:09:12 (#5394)
Well... I'm sure this is exactly what you don't want. I left after that hand. I'm sure he would have started noticing things!
I kind of got the impression he was a relatively new dealer who went the extra mile to learn more about his job. He was young.
It just seemed like a pretty useless thing for him to do. I got the impression he was a bit proud and was flaunting his new abilities.
Re: Are Dealers on Average this dumb?
Posted by Cyrano on 13-Nov-2003 13:55:48 (#5395)
Unlikely, I think he is at least a part-time advantage player. Actually, I think it's ingenuis, if he is in fact an advantage player.. he gets to 1) make money 2 different ways from casinos (talk about REALLY making casinos pay for his winnings), 2) he can watch the casinos closely 3) he gets to watch others' covers.
I don't think any sane dealer would spend months learning proper BS, indices, and practicing to count, without more motivation.
Article in Santa Barbara News Press
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Nov-2003 12:09:47 (#5313)
It didn't scan in that well ... I'll try again soon ... hopefully you can read this:
<HR size = 8>
<HR size = 8>
<HR size = 8>
<HR size = 8>
Great Article!! *NM*
Posted by HiNoon on 09-Nov-2003 14:28:14 (#5314)
A Who's Who of Vegas?
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Nov-2003 15:02:54 (#5315)
The Horseshoe, El Cortez, Western, Four Queens, Las Vegas Club, Circus Circus, Flamingo?
Why didn't they most of the dumps in Vegas? LOL.
You think some one should point out that since the State of California gives these tribes a license to steal (I know, soverign country and all that) but still the State has to cooperate, who are they to not allow law abiding citizens not to play?
Here is the real question??????
Posted by Victoria on 09-Nov-2003 16:56:41 (#5316)
Mayor
Did they think you had figured out how to beat Carribean Stud??
If so, please share your amazing secret when you are ready.
Victoria
Re: Here is the real question??????
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Nov-2003 20:12:20 (#5319)
I know they stated (on many occassions) that I couldn't come within 6 feet of a BJ table, but I don't recall such a rule for the other table games.
As for my having a way to be C.S. ... that's a good one for you to think about.
--Mayor
Re: Here is the real question??????
Posted by Victoria on 10-Nov-2003 11:28:34 (#5321)
Since you are given knowledge of one of the dealer's cards, I would think that the only way to get at least close to an advantage in that game would be with team play and that probably would get you into trouble. If for instance you knew the cards of two other players, you now know 16 cards instead of 6. Perhaps you would even need more than two partners. To me it is a game that I play sometimes just to give my brain a rest after a long BJ session.
I know in their old set up at Chumash, an end of the stud table was probably less than 6 feet from the closest BJ table. Don't remember in the new casino but perhaps they got you on a technicality.
Re: Awesome article
Posted by FLA Player on 10-Nov-2003 13:41:21 (#5323)
Great article and great comments Mayor... look forward to taking some money from the evil empire with you and LTC in Vegas sometime
FLA Player
Re: Here is the real question??????
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-Nov-2003 08:54:59 (#5357)
You are on the right track. Team play with a progresive jackpot that has made the game posi EV.
Reply
Posted by Forward on 09-Nov-2003 19:22:04 (#5317)
======================================================================
The following was sent to me via private email as a response to
the article -- I contacted the sender and got permission to post
his comments anonymously here.
A word about this person. He is a knowledgeable about this particular
subject matter as anyone I know, and what he has to say should be
taken in and considered carefully.
-Mayor
======================================================================
All publicity for the proficient community is good and most needed
..and this article is what is needed more of...
But ........
The State Officer, Keith Copher Nevada Gaming Control Board ,
Chief Enforcement Officer ( nice officious title) has to be rebutted...the
casinos do not have a " right" to do anything to the people of a state that
granted them the right to exist and peddle their wares - which is
gambling...not just a fixed and rigged game for unknowing people who chose
to play it...
for all of the people of the state..should they choose..have the
constitutional right to become proficient players
Just because the casinos possibly post a sign saying they have a right does
not give them that right - the state - the people - grant rights to this
industry
Mr. Cipher is undoubtedly some official with a law enforcement background
of some type -possibly politically appointed to his position - rather than
by knowledge and merit - who certainly is no "rocket scientist " stating -
peoples rights and would probably have a most difficult time stating what
the first ten amendments to the US constitution were and if he read them
not - knowing what they were - might consider same a subversive document -
"The Bill of Rights"
Mr. Copher is a state authority bellowing the casino line...that the casino
industry has the right to do anything they want...
which they do not
It would be akin to Firestone Tire Company stating they had the right to
sell defective tires and General Motors and the auto industry - the right
to sell defective cars...
Who in the state gave this right that the casinos claim historically?
starting in Nevada the first STATE legalized gambling entity
Nelson Rose comments and - I believe he is wrong -
that each state has laws relative to " card counters" -a word I
despise...because the casino public relations has done well in making the
words synominize with " hookers" " cheats" or " "derelicts"... criminals...
etc.
Each state - as gambling proliferates -
might have unwritten policy and possibly even written - but I doubt it
I would appreciate Nelson showing me the laws specifically against a citizen
using his brain...
but possibly they exist...I doubt it
Nelson is right when he says that the state can say they ( the casinos ) do
not have the right in compact to kick people off their lands...
but the point has never been politically lobbied nor legally carried forth
by the barristers...
When you garnered this kind of newspaper space Eliot...
It is great...use it wisely, Professor
The point must be proselytized - that a proficient player is not a threat
to casino making money...that their are only a small amount of proficient
players..and most of them are not that proficient..and even if they were -
would not choose to spend forty to sixty hours in a casino just playing
Blackjack for a living
"To get involved in the gaming business is a privilege - not a right" and
"Your going to be regulated strongly by the state..."
said Frank Fahrenkoph..a very sharp and intelligent guy..very knowledgeable
...very good at what he does
When you state in an article that they ( the casinos) have a right to keep
you out of there - that you are a danger every time you walk through the
door....
You are assisting the casino industry in the myth that proficient players
are in fact a danger...which they are not - to a multi billion dollar
industry that is fast burgeoning across the country...
If casinos want to offer a game to the people of a state - for the people
are the state - they do not have " the right" to pick and choose who they
will offer that game to
...based upon individuals proficiency or lack thereof..
If the casinos want to offer the gambling product ...the casinos then must
offer to all... of the people...of the state...that gave the industry the
privilege to offer the gambling - and gambling is not a game - or gaming - a
word the casinos public relations developed - to begin with
the casinos should not be allowed to alter the way Blackjack is played...
to give the casinos a " rigged " advantage in a gamble between parties
Re: CA or AC?
Posted by Sonny on 10-Nov-2003 12:06:33 (#5322)
> Nelson is right when he says that the state can say they ( the casinos ) do
> not have the right in compact to kick people off their lands...
> but the point has never been politically lobbied nor legally carried forth
> by the barristers...
It sounds like CA might turn into AC!
-Sonny-
Re: The Chumasch
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 10-Nov-2003 17:22:57 (#5326)
Mayor, they should now pay you to come back to sign autographs. If they didn't have such "pea brains", they would have you come back and play sometimes. Maybe even with a few restrictions. Hey, if I was runnin' the show, I'd figure a way to use your celleb status to draw in more business. Such stupid people. They can't see the forest, 'cause the trees are in the way.
Put a feather in your cap ol' Buddy.
Wow! I think I've been watching too much Dr. Phil. :-(
Stealth
Re: The Chumasch
Posted by Victoria on 10-Nov-2003 18:48:57 (#5327)
Last time I was there I had a good session. It was the first time I had been there since their new casino opened. Played about 6 hours of BJ, watched hosts, or whatever they call them, offer most of the other players at the $25 table their club card. I probably would have refused, but with an average bet over $100, I never was approached. Had to make me think, why! Perhaps because most of the others were loosing and I was doing well? Did they suspect me of being a counter? If it had been Vegas I know some floorman would have asked.
Still a strange place to me and I still want to see them break out some new decks just once. Perhaps they should hire The Mayor as a consultant.
Victoria
Re: Article in Santa Barbara News Press
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Nov-2003 19:01:24 (#5328)
My only concern with this article is that his honor the Mayor could become the sacrificial lamb for Card Counters rights. We may may never be protected and the Mayor will never be allowed to play. I could not sustain so much notariety I want to keep taking the Casino's profits for my greedy self. Even so it was a kick A$$ article and it reveals the truth about the EVIL Casino Empire! Dont worry Mayor I will watch your back!
Re: Article in Santa Barbara News Press
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 10-Nov-2003 19:46:46 (#5331)
Becoming the "sacrificial lamb" may have its advantages for The Mayor. The bright side is that he now has an even better opportunity to start a comprehensive BJ training center with different courses for all levels of play. There are a lot of people that would like to know what The Mayor knows.
Beam me up Mayor! I'll be the first to sign up. I'll take some training in ........ "Advanced Pro Level BJ 101" ....... Wow! How coooool. Droves of people showing up for class, incognito. No cameras allowed! :-)
Stealth
Re: Article i would have added
Posted by eyes for 21 on 11-Nov-2003 13:13:19 (#5335)
Mayor I would have mentioned that the casinos
get very worried when players bet the minimum and then
move up their bets at least a 10 fold;then more players
will try this and it will act as a cover play for us
players. If more players move up and down their bets
then this will be the normal thus the pit will be more confused.
Other's comments
Posted by The Mayor on 11-Nov-2003 13:29:54 (#5337)
...
I think several posters are missing the point that I did not write the article, nor did I have editorial control over its content, nor did I view it before it was published, nor did I have any idea what slant the author would take before it was published.
I agreed to be interviewed, that's all. The interview was almost 2 hours long, I said a lot of things -- the author chose a couple of quotes from that, and a couple of quotes from other places, to give the article the slant she wanted. No amount of "please say this in the article" had any effect.
I think the author did a great job saying what she wanted to say.
--Mayor
Re: Article i would have added
Posted by Learning to count on 11-Nov-2003 15:25:09 (#5342)
The casinos don't care what your bets are. They are more worried if you win or not! If you get heat for a five to fifty dollar bet then dont play at that time at that casino. They are morons if they sweat any action under $100! Play at another shift or even at another casino.
wrongo learning
Posted by eyes for 21 on 11-Nov-2003 19:58:30 (#5350)
they donot care so much if you arewinning I have personally
got the boot from many casinos and I was lossing at the time.
Its not the so called bet size,every casino,pit boss has different
paranoia levels. Same with the bet range different with all the
casinos.
Re: wrongo learning
Posted by Learning to count on 11-Nov-2003 21:01:05 (#5351)
Like I said don't play at that shift or even at that casino. Sounds like your playing at $h!t holes low limit joints. F#ck em they are not worth your talents!
Eye For An Eye, Tooth For A Tooth
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 11-Nov-2003 21:42:38 (#5352)
I don't think any casino should have a right to take picture of a patron without their knowledge/consent and then make it available to the public or news media unless they have proof that an illegal act was committed. We don't get to take pictures of them and all the unethical crap they pull, let alone get it put into the news. ???
Stealth
Re: Eye For An Eye, Tooth For A Tooth
Posted by Sonny on 12-Nov-2003 10:53:37 (#5360)
> I don't think any casino should have a right to take picture of a patron
> without their knowledge/consent and then make it available to the public or
> news media...
Here in Los Angeles you need to get a formal release form signed by the person AND the photographer/company just to be in the BACKGROUND of a movie. I think that casinos should follow the same procedure. "Excuse me, sir. Would you sign this photograph release form so that we can include you photo in the Griffin Book? Smile!"
> We don't get to take pictures of them and all the unethical crap they pull,
> let alone get it put into the news. ???
Hell, I can't even take a picture of MYSELF in their casinos! Nobody is allowed to photograph ANYTHING...except them. They can photograph whatever they want whenever they want. There must be some kind of law they're breaking!
-Sonny-
Re: Eye For An Eye, Tooth For A Tooth
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 12-Nov-2003 11:35:20 (#5362)
I consider the article re The Mayor/Chumash to result in an indirect form of "defamation of character". However, given it originates from a tribal gaming group, I remind everyone about the issue of "Sovereign Immunity". Until the tribal casinos can be actually challenged in a fair court of law rather than their own kangaroo court, might as well just call Ghost Busters.
LTC, we need you in on this one.
Stealth
Re: Eye For An Eye, Tooth For A Tooth
Posted by Learning to count on 12-Nov-2003 16:01:43 (#5375)
""I consider the article re The Mayor/Chumash to result in an indirect form of "defamation of character".""
How did the article defame his character????? All it did is tell the truth about the evil casino! If anything it critisizes the casino's paranoia.
"" However, given it originates from a tribal gaming group, I remind everyone about the issue of "Sovereign Immunity". Until the tribal casinos can be actually challenged in a fair court of law rather than their own kangaroo court, might as well just call Ghost Busters.""
Its the law and after what the american indian has been through well I feel they deserve thier Sovereignity! They can do what they want even as far as cheating. That as I have said before that is why I don,t play there! They will offer enough of the gambling experience to draw in the suckers and thats all!
""LTC, we need you in on this one.""
""Stealth""
Well you have my oppinion! Its not a witty one but its my honest oppinion. LTC
Do they cheat?
Posted by Victoria on 12-Nov-2003 17:39:33 (#5377)
LTC
Want to know. Win or loose I have always felt strange at the Chumash. Do they cheat? And how?
Re: Do they cheat?
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Nov-2003 08:37:28 (#5389)
Since there are no laws to regulate indian casinos. They have a free hand to do what they want. They offer competetive type games that are equal to gaming conditions in Las Vegasin order to attract the gabler. If a person wants to play there that is their right to do so. Since there are no gaming regulations and laws then the possibility to CHEAT is there. If the Nevada establishments are able to get away with what they do:selective barrings, illegal searches, illegal detainments, passing financiel and personal identification info around, illegal arrests, lying on arrests afidavits, picking and choosing the rules to a game, preferential shuffling, stopping a game in progress and kicking you out, etc etc.....the list goeson. Whats to stop these casino's! Now as far as cheating; using a card mechanic, loading the deck etc...who knows? I have no proof but I have had my suspicion's! All I am saying is the possibility to change the game in the houses favor is readily available at these Casinos. As far as pointing out distinct examples sorry no can do. The barring of the Mayor was legal and logical. The casino is paranoid and see's him as a threat to their greed/profits. I would bar him too. Such a skilled player could cause some damage with the right bankroll. Card counting is similar to espionage/war. Its dangerous at high stakes. You dont have a problem Vicky. the dealers are too busy trying to get your phone number to worry about your grinding away at their chip tray. LTC
Gut feeling
Posted by Victoria on 13-Nov-2003 11:31:25 (#5393)
LTC
I know or understand everything you wrote. I agree that heat there for me has been non existant. I have had great and horrid sessions there, but that is the nature of what we do. Call it intuition, gut instinct or the fact that it is the only Indian casino I ever played in, I just get this feeling and it causes me to just not want to go back often. Perhaps even with all that is wrong with the houses in Vegas, I have a this feeling of honesty (perhaps the wrong word) in their game because of controls and competition next door. One thing for certain, there are enough people out there who will play bad games when no good games are nearby.
Since work and family limit my vegas trips to about three a year, I will resign myself to the position of being a modest advantage player.
Victoria
Re: Gut feeling
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Nov-2003 14:48:46 (#5398)
No problemo Victoria. I understand. I get to Vegas 4 times a year. I practice on my off time and haunt the websites. I just will not play at those establishments. I have played on many of the cruise ships and have seen suspicious play there as well. Just keep in mind that you have to play brilliantly to do this thing we do. See your in the pits! : )
Re: Eye For An Eye, Tooth For A Tooth
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 12-Nov-2003 20:14:33 (#5381)
Thanks LTC, but I think we have some differences on Indian Gaming issues. Maybe I'll try and convert you: ;-)
>How did the article defame his character????? All it did is tell the truth about the evil casino! If anything it criticizes the casino's paranoia.
Ya, I realize that. Maybe "defamation of character" is not the right choice of words. I did say "indirectly" though. It still just doesn't seem right to me that we do not have the right to take pictures of them in their compromising moment and post it in a location where many people will see it. They even did it sort of "Post Office Style", meaning that the Mayor is made to look like as if he did something criminal. They also know it affects his right to play at other casinos. Dirty pool!? Why didn't they just tell him to leave without all the grandeur?
>Its the law and after what the american indian has been through well I feel they deserve thier Sovereignity! They can do what they want even as far as cheating. That as I have said before that is why I don,t play there! They will offer enough of the gambling experience to draw in the suckers and thats all!
Well, I personally think the law is f'ed up. Maybe our U S Government needs to be accountable. As for what the historical NATIVE Indians went through; that was then and now is now. Everyone that was involved in what happened in the past is gone. When I came into this world, all that stuff was long since passed. I have never done anything to deserve any indebtedness to them. Therefore, I feel I came in owing them nothing. I will go out that way. As for cheating and unethical actions, I will always be an advocate for accountability and fair gaming within the human race. The Indians are still human since I last checked. I do respect that other people feel differently than I in this regard. However, I have a question for all to ponder: How long shall people, other than myself, feel that they owe a "free for all" world to the tribal gaming Indians? 10 more years? ... 50? .... 427?.......for ever?
Responses welcomed.
Stealth
Philosophically your right but...
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Nov-2003 07:25:20 (#5387)
they have the law on their side. So realistically your dead wrong Stealthy! Like I said they are evil a$$holes who only care about making money. They are evil because they lie about what they are offering. I guess it's like cigarette companies who lied about what cigarettes did to you; all those hundreds of thousands of lung cancer deaths ago. Offering a game that has one purpose: to addict the suckers and gambling degenerates and hold them until they lose it all. No one wins by gambling. The biggest stomach churner is when the degenerate loses a bundle and then cover's up their vice by saying it was entertainment. This is part of the lie! Like "smoking a cigarette will make you feel better or sexy". ....and finally "dont play at a casino where it is possible to cheat you and their are no gambling laws to stop this"!
Turn the Other Cheek
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-Nov-2003 13:15:43 (#5365)
If there is a law, it would take a lawyer or team of them to pick it up. Then there would have to be an advantage for them to push it, take it to the limit. There really isn't one. If you think your individual freedoms are in question, you don't have to look farther than your own front yard, your drinking water, or your childrens school, let alone walking onto another mans property (that means casino too) and think he can't take your picture while you play cards.
Don't turn the other cheek you guys!
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 12-Nov-2003 20:30:05 (#5383)
At least the water agencies, utilities, school boards, etc. have to be accountable and are subject to claims from lawsuits. Therefore, for the most part, we can count on them to try there best to do things right.
Mayor I'm tryin', I'm tryin' hard here. Ugh Ugh
Stealth
Re: Don't turn the other cheek you guys!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-Nov-2003 20:36:47 (#5384)
Have another glass of water and call me in the morning.....
if you wake up! smile
Mayor, Maybe You Should Get on the List for Face Transplants *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 12-Nov-2003 14:23:27 (#5370)
Re: Mayor, Maybe You Should Get on the List for Face Transplants
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-Nov-2003 20:13:46 (#5380)
Did you see Nov Pop Mechanics mag? Had a great article on that.
No, Heard about it on the radio *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 13-Nov-2003 08:25:04 (#5388)
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