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Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#6236)
Re: Bankroll
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 16-Jan-2004 23:38:05 (#6241)
Unless you can find a VP progressive big enough to give the game a positive expectation, or the game rules make the game pos EV, I suggest you take your money and deposit it into a tax shelter, possibly a mix of liquid cash and no load mutual funds (that way you have pros trading for you at no cost to you) and take the tax savings and pay off your mortgage with it. Buy yourself Hoyle Casino and fulfil your desire to play with that.
Re: Bankroll
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Jan-2004 02:08:19 (#6243)
Advice- don't. Unless you can find a "real" 9/6 VP game or a malfunctioning slot machine, they're all negative EV games. Given enough time you will lose all your money. It's not a gamble because the outcome is certain- bankruptcy. Your BJ rules aren't the best, but as long as your game has not become parasitized with autoshufflers you can count it for a positive EV and given enough time you will make as much money as you want.
lv trip report
Posted by deZerTomB on 16-Jan-2004 21:56:29 (#6238)
OK here goes nothing, hehe.
First off, I'm a newbie, only been seriously counting for 3 months. This is my 3rd trip to vegas and on the first one I spent 4 days learning to count on SD. Now I mostly play DD.
Second, I'm the first to admit I dont know all the indexes. Shame. shame, but I practice every day on my puter and now have the 15v10 and 16v9,10 automatic. I have to think about 12v2,3,4,5,6 and guess on 13 hehe. This is all part of the learning process.
Third, counting is automatic, discipline is not. I even count when I come in mid-deck and after the shuffle card comes out and my hand is played, I can't not count now. Discipline comes with experience(I guess!) and I'm getting more of each every time sit at a table.
Bankroll for trip $1200 cash. Access to more if I need it.
Wed.
Cal DD $5 min. -$200
GN DD $10 min. +$400 raised to $25 after I sat down. 2 new decks.
Cal DD $5 min. +$200
4Q DD $5 min. +$150 raised to $10 after I sat down.
Thurs.
Cal DD $5 -$500 lack of discipline evident here, plenty of ploppies though!
GN DD $25 min. +$300 $25 min for first time, woo hoo!!!
LVC SD $5 min. -$300 I think I'll stick to DD.
GN DD $25 min. +$175 I like it there.
Riv DD $25 min. +$175 first time counting on the strip.
Star DD $10 min. +$25 PC insisted I get a club card. Counter measure? hehe. Paranoia will destroya.
Fri.
4Q DD $5 min. +$125 no crowd before 10am. Penetration varies by dealer.
GN $25 min. +$75 in all of 2 minutes.
Time to get outta dodge, on the road to the low desert by 10:30 am.
Still a long way to go, But I'm getting there.
deZerTomB
Re: lv trip report
Posted by hinoon on 17-Jan-2004 16:25:04 (#6248)
Well documented trip report. Taking detailed notes is something that has oft been emphasized to me as a key habit to develop. Your records will tell you a lot, but only if you actually take the time to keep them consistently.
One note: You say that your bankroll was $1200 with "access to more" if needed.
This is dangerous territory. Either your bankroll is $1200 and you are willing to dip into non-bankroll money, a path that will lead to serious emotional ruin...OR you have a larger bankroll and are uncomfortable with it and thus are underbetting and reducing your returns.
Know what your bankroll really is...that way you can adjust your max-bet accordingly and wager with the most efficiency and the least risk of ruin.
Great job on the report!
-hinoon
Re: lv trip report
Posted by deZerTomB on 18-Jan-2004 20:44:02 (#6253)
Thanks hinoon.
Yea I am a little uncomfortable at this point until I learn all the indexes better and gain experience. Next trip I'll take $1500. I'm more comfortable gambling with their money than mine. 8+)
deZerTomB
Re: lv trip report
Posted by revereman on 19-Jan-2004 09:23:44 (#6258)
I realize it's probably just a throw-away line but don't fall in to the trap that you are playing with house money because you won it. It is YOUR money. Don't bet higher stakes because it's FREE money. Stick with your game plan, which should really be not to play yet. It's certainly not terrible that you're playing now since it seems you know enough to win (or maybe just enough to be dangerous--to yourself). The swings are wild in BJ and be prepared for a rollercoaster ride. Not trying to be critical, but hopefully helpful.
Re: lv trip report
Posted by hinoon on 19-Jan-2004 11:19:14 (#6261)
I agree revereman.
If "their money" is in your hands...it's "your money"...you could cash out and buy a boat, pay for student loans, buy a Big Mac, whatever...but it's a mental illusion to start assigning ownership to cash. In that respect, a lot of heavy hitters will tell you that NONE of those chips are "your money" until you've managed to cash them out...a task which is sometimes easier said than done.
dezertomb, I know where you're coming from in terms of comfort levels with a bankroll. For me, it's a matter of making sure that my bankroll is completely independent from my lifestyle. My rent, my bills, my food...it's all paid for from my day job. I do freelance work on the side which builds my bankroll. Right now, that bankroll has a cap because my skills don't merit an open-ended bank. So, as the Mayor, as LTC, as most of these guys will tell you...practice practice practice!
Good report
Posted by Sonny on 19-Jan-2004 14:50:54 (#6263)
> I'm the first to admit I dont know all the indexes. Shame. shame,
> but I practice every day on my puter and now have the 15v10 and
> 16v9,10 automatic. I have to think about 12v2,3,4,5,6...
Don't be ashamed! If you're practicing every day you will learn them in no time. You should be proud! Just don't forget about insurance!
> Third, counting is automatic, discipline is not. I even count when
> I come in mid-deck and after the shuffle card comes out and my hand
> is played, I can't not count now.
GOOD! You obviously have good discipline and are putting in the time and effort necessary to learn. However, your next step (along with getting a few indecies under your belt) should be scouting good games. It sounds like you played mostly no-DAS games downtown. As long as you were getting good penetration this is fine, but maybe look into finding some DAS games if you're going to play DD. All of your card-counting skills will be much more worthwhile if you use them in good games.
It sounds like you're definately on the right track. Good luck, and keep in touch!
-Sonny-
Re: Good report
Posted by deZerTomB on 20-Jan-2004 09:10:59 (#6267)
Thanks everybody for the support and advice!!!
I'm still practicing. Everyday, Super Blackjack.
Yep, it's my money now, as soon as the chips get on my side of the table, I think of them as mine. But I would rather build up my BR with bj winnings than from another economic means. My plan right now is to re-invest part of my winnings in BR and spend the rest on normal daily living expenses.
Insurance was the first one I learned, 16v10,9 and 15v10 next. I have to think about some of the 12 plays, hopefully in a couple weeks those will be automatic. Then I see from the mayor's index, there's more. BTW thanks mayor for the indexes since the only book I could find had 4 deck indexes in it.
I'm definitely going to spend more time on the strip on my next trip. I just got my feet wet on the quarter tables last time and it seems that the conditions are much better than the nickel tables.
Yeah I know it's a high wire act, but that's what makes it interesting. It's basically a challenge to myself to take their money. I have the time, opportunity, hopefully the abilty(time will tell) and the bankroll to develop this hobby of mine into more than just a hobby.
Update next weekend.
BJ Books for Sale
Posted by revereman on 17-Jan-2004 15:39:54 (#6247)
Okie gets first crack but the following BJ books are for sale, approximately 50% off retail price (plus shipping). All books are soft cover, unless otherwise noted. All books in excellent condition.
Blackbelt in BJ, Snyder
Turning the Tables on LV, Andersen
World's Greatest BJ Book, Humble
Beat the Dealer, Thorp
Burning the Tables in LV, Andersen (hard cover)
Blackjack Secrets, Wong
Blackjack Attack, Schlesinger (Volumes I & II)
Professional BJ, Wong
Million Dollar BJ, Uston
Las Vegas BJ Diary, Perry
The Counter, Blackwood
Multiple book orders preferred but will consider single sales too.
If interested, let me know your email and we'll correspond privately.
Re: BJ Books for Sale
Posted by interested on 18-Jan-2004 15:23:30 (#6252)
I'm interested in several of them. Email me if you are still selling them and hopefully we can figure something out! Thx. BigJax510@hotmail.com
Re: BJ Books for Sale
Posted by revereman on 21-Jan-2004 08:31:23 (#6280)
You never responded to my email. Are you still interested?
Re: BJ Books for Sale
Posted by feep on 19-Jan-2004 12:16:29 (#6262)
Interested in:
Blackbelt in BJ, Snyder
Turning the Tables on LV, Andersen
The Counter, Blackwood
Thanks!
Feep
January Poll: Your 2003 winnings
Posted by blackcloud on 19-Jan-2004 15:46:13 (#6265)
I realize that a unit is a unit, but it would be interesting to know if the 33% that lost were playing $5 or $25 units or higher. Also what the big unit winners were using as a unit. Does 33% who lost money seem high? If 33% is not high what do casinos have to worry about counters for?
blackcloud
Re: January Poll: Your 2003 winnings
Posted by revereman on 20-Jan-2004 13:42:15 (#6271)
Right on all accounts and good questions.
BTW, and I'm not questioning the Mayor's math credentials here, but you need mutually exclusively categories. For example, if you won 10 units, are you in the 1-10 category or the 10-50 category?
system indices
Posted by Tom on 20-Jan-2004 11:35:37 (#6269)
I was checking out indice numbers here for the 2 level count(RPC). Are these index numbers for 1/2 deck TC or full deck?
Thanks,
Tom
Unless otherwise noted......
Posted by phantom007 on 20-Jan-2004 13:25:04 (#6270)
Indicies are usually reported based on TC. Now, KO, "otherwise noted" is based on the RC.
phantom007.
For level 2 count balanced systems...
Posted by Tom on 21-Jan-2004 01:55:59 (#6279)
some divide by "1/2 deck" or "whole deck". My question was, which division is used for the level two count indices that are posted here? This makes a huge difference. The RPC divides by "1/2 deck".
Tom
Re: system indices
Posted by Cyrano on 20-Jan-2004 23:29:01 (#6273)
TC, by nature, means it doesn't matter if you do it by 1/2 deck or by 1 deck.. you should get the same number.. of course, the finer you are (assuming you are very accurate in estimating the decks left)in your TC calculations, the more effective your TC will be, though I recall that the gain was somewhat minimal. Some authors recommend that you TC by full decks down to the last 2 decks, then half-deck it down after that. I think I've read one author that advocates TC'ing by 1/4 deck at the 2-deck level. It's what you feel comfortable with.
Re: system indices
Posted by Tom on 21-Jan-2004 16:52:19 (#6285)
"TC, by nature, means it doesn't matter if you do it by 1/2 deck or by 1 deck.. you should get the same number."
I dont know who you gather your information from,but 4 divided by 1 deck = 4TC.
4 divided by .5(half deck) = 8TC.
Re: system indices
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Jan-2004 17:52:11 (#6287)
I believe you know what you are asking, but how you are asking is not making sense to me, or apparently others.
Again, the numbers are based on
TC = RC/(# of decks).
Use the counting system given to arrive at a RC. Divide by the number of decks remaining. If you may have 3.5 decks remaining, .5 decks remaining, or 5 decks (in a shoe), I don't care, just divide by THAT number. That gives the true count. This is the universal way of computing true count, with a couple of very simple exceptions (e.g. Wong Halves). The numbers I provided are not these exceptions.
If you have further questions, I refer you to private email, as I do not want to clutter this board with misunderstandings.
--Mayor
Re: system indices
Posted by Cyrano on 21-Jan-2004 17:59:54 (#6288)
I guess I misunderstood you. I've never seen a system TC by anything other than whole decks, so I assumed you mean 1/2 decks to be like this...
at 4.5 decks left, you would divide RC by 4.5 decks (on the other hand, if you TC by 1 deck, it would be the RC divided by 5 decks or 4 decks). Try it sometimes, dividing by 5 or 4.5 or 4 would give you almost the same number. The difference was proven by Fuchs and Vancura to be minimal on the EV. However, as you get closer to the end of the shoe, and especially within the last 2 decks, that RC difference increases arithmetically, hence it becomes much more important for you to estimate by 1/2 and 1/4 decks.
Re: system indices
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Jan-2004 10:38:11 (#6283)
True count = (Running count) / (number of DECKS remaining)
This is the formula used for all indices posted on this site.
Some counts divide by half decks, but then they use half the values for the indices as well, e.g. Halves (as appears in Wong's PBJ).
--Mayor
Re: system indices
Posted by Tom on 21-Jan-2004 17:04:37 (#6286)
Mayor, after being a card counter for 15 years and living in Vegas,I certainly know what TC means.
I thought my question would be easy to understand. I'm simply asking if the count system divided by "half deck" or "whole deck". In simplier terms ,are these whole deck or half deck index numbers?
Re: system indices
Posted by Sonny on 23-Jan-2004 11:03:36 (#6336)
> Mayor, after being a card counter for 15 years and
> living in Vegas,I certainly know what TC means.
Fifteen years and you haven't learned your indeces yet? Tisk, tisk!
> I'm simply asking if the count system divided by
> "half deck" or "whole deck".
All of the indeces listed here are "whole deck" numbers. I remember that Uston would always divide by half decks, even in shoe games. For some people it makes the division easier, but I prefer whole deck numbers even though I end up dividing by 3.5 or 1.25 occasionally. Sometimes it's just easier to memorize the numbers if you are playing with fewer decks.
-Sonny-
Halves count
Posted by John Lewis on 01-Feb-2004 01:55:33 (#6475)
"Some counts divide by half decks, but then they use half the values for the indices as well, e.g. Halves (as appears in Wong's PBJ)."
So THAT'S why they do Halves the way they do! It's designed to make conversion to TC using 1/2 deck increments easy, thus making it easy to improve your TC accuracy by counting 1/2 decks vs 1. It's thus designed specifically for multiple deck play.
Is this correct?
world series of BJ gf/
Posted by Lil Casino on 20-Jan-2004 16:34:40 (#6272)
Does any one know how much it cost to enter or maybe some way to find out any info.
Re: world series of BJ gf/
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 21-Jan-2004 00:41:28 (#6278)
Yup,
I did call them about this.
It will be an invitational tourney that takes place this Saturday at Mohegan Sun in Connecticut. Stanford Wong and other big names will be involved. The Game Show Network will be covering it. It is invitation only so you can't participate.
-Felix
Re: world series of BJ gf/
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Jan-2004 09:44:42 (#6281)
A made for TV movie. Prize is 100K. How much are they selling commercial space for now? 1M a minute? grin Who's zoomin who?
Sure...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 21-Jan-2004 10:14:17 (#6282)
They're obviously trying to capitalize on the poker craze.
More Books...
Posted by Jim2 on 21-Jan-2004 18:27:59 (#6289)
I am always looking for more books to read about Gambling, decision making and gaming. I was reading "Why flip a Coin" by H.W.Lewis, found some obvious references to the mayor in there. The faculty at UC Santa Barbara can't be that big.
I am to the point now, that if I can find it in a book, it's probably not that useful in advantage play. Still looking for a larger edge than 1-3 percent.
Anyone have any ideas for further reading other than "Beyond Counting"...?
Suggested Reading and Action to GET >3% BJ Advantage......
Posted by phantom007 on 22-Jan-2004 02:33:26 (#6293)
....following are phantom007's suggested readings and/or actions:
#1---"How to Own and Operate a Casino" by Betty Binion...soon to be published by the IRS Tax Court(s).....IMHO, she made so many $ that she had to trash the Shoe for the Deduction.
#2---"Shuffle Tracking for Beginners" by George C.
#3---"The BJ Shuffle Trackers Cookbook" by Arnold Snyder.
#4---Practice on the Software "CVShuffle2.0".
#5---Mega-WONG...only enter at TC's >+7-8. Exit at +6 or less. Expect to be arrested for "vagrancy", in that you will be standing around alot! A trench-coat and a cheap bottle of wine, in a brown paper bag, of course, will help your cover.
#6---LET the IRS increase your EV, if possible...I work in a field wherein I have to take "so many" hours of Continuing Education each year.....wierd how it seems that the only classes I can fit into my schedule are in LV. RFBA are all legitimate deductions, even IF RFB are pretty much FREE, and my employer takes care of "A". I can still take the "per diem" deduction for RFB!
#7---Work where you Gamble---My field/profession allows me to work in the Tunica area 1-2x/month as an independent contractor. Again, allowing the IRS to increase EV.....mileage, per diem, etc.!
BUT SERIOUSLY, may I humbly suggest that you strive for BJ LONGEVITY, such as indicated in Carlson, Renzy, and/or Tamburin?
phantom007.
Re: More Books...
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Jan-2004 09:58:18 (#6301)
Rather than reading, may I suggest hanging out in a casino for a while and opening your eyes. Honestly, opportunities for greater than 3% edges are more common than good blackjack games. It helps to consider EVERY game, know their procedures, and how small lapses in procedure might benefit you.
The key is that casinos make mistakes that you can take advantage of.
--Mayor
Re: More Books...
Posted by eyesfor21 on 22-Jan-2004 13:04:44 (#6306)
well said..
shhhh!!!
You've got to be kidding.
Posted by Tom on 22-Jan-2004 15:42:08 (#6308)
Games with more than a 3 percent player edge are now more common that a good BJ game! Is this in some far away country?
Are you talking "honest" opportunities, or "dishonest" ones?
Re: You've got to be kidding.
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Jan-2004 17:15:46 (#6310)
Sometimes I think I know how the LVHCM feels -- if only they were nicer people.
--Mayor
Re: You've got to be kidding.
Posted by Tom on 22-Jan-2004 18:11:04 (#6313)
Yeah,I know what you mean, he's the biggest troll on the internet. It seems to hate any and all card counters.
Could you at least give me a clue if these games are found in the northern or southern hemisphere?
Re: You've got to be kidding.
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Jan-2004 18:25:09 (#6314)
These games are available in every major location gambling is offered on the planet, and are absolutely legal to play. You evidently have not read my podiums dating back over the last year or so. You might want to look at them to get an idea about this stuff. That's all I can say.
--Mayor
Thanks,Mayor.
Posted by Tom on 23-Jan-2004 01:38:18 (#6325)
I kind of think I know what your talking about. The greater than 3% edge seems very difficult to achieve unless conditons happen to be perfect. It's like being at the right place, at the right time.
Ancient Secrets
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Jan-2004 07:47:55 (#6330)
To spill the beans, or not spill the beans; that is the question. Whether playing onland or online you will find them. Do you keep them to yourself, or share them? If you share them, who do you share them with? Everyone? People that log onto your site only? A group of hand picked stars that you know you can trust? Everyone has their own answers to these questions. No matter who you share the info with, someone will get pissed at you. It looks like the Mayor is doing the Eddie Murphy skit "I've got some ice cream and you can't have none" but he is trying to get you to see things on your own without getting anyone pissed. Even that doesn't work. People will think you are blowing hot smoke out your puthooter and that you can't prove anything for or against the secret unless you know what it is. Take a look at his Big 6 Wheel post. I've read similar stories in a few books, or a BJI newsletter, so this is not new info by any means, so you can't hold the Mayor responsible for spilling any beans, just re-frying them muchacho.
Re: Ancient Secrets
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jan-2004 09:11:52 (#6331)
Well said Rob. Not pissing off AP's is a big part of what my careful way of talking around this stuff is all about.
Re: Ancient Secrets
Posted by Tom on 23-Jan-2004 10:59:47 (#6335)
That's a funny post,I liked the re-fried beans. I did not ask the Mayor for specific details,only if these games are found in other counties or dishonest approaches(if you know what I mean)have to be used to achieve this advantage. There are many great BJ conditions in far away worlds if you look for them,no dishonest approach or tactic is needed. For instance everyone knows the Big Wheel you speak of can be easily beat,it's no big secret,however there stands good chance of a collusion between the player and dealer. This is definitly a dishonest tactic that I dont even want to mess with or be accused of. For now I'll stick to the traditional and legal methods of card counting...off-line,that is.
New Casino Chips
Posted by Jim2 on 21-Jan-2004 21:58:03 (#6291)
There is an article in the Jan 10th issue of New Scientist about new casino chips that have RFID(radio frequency identification device) chips imbedded in them.(page 21)
The RFID chips are tiny silicone chips that broadcast a unique identification code when prompted by a radio device. The tags do not need batteries since they simply modify the radio signal fired at them by the reader. The readers work over distances ranging from a few centimeters, to a few dozen meters, depending on the type of tag. Embeded tags would make the chips harder to conterfeit, also the casinos could use the readers to scan employees to cut down on theft.
Aside from security, the tags could also be used to track how people play in a casino, it would allow the casino to keep tabs on the bets of every gambler on their premises. They would have a real time track of all winning and losing players, this would also help the casino monitor play for comps, which is an inexact science, now.
The chips are made by Hitachi, there was a joint study of putting them in the euro notes, but the ECB will not comment on the security features of the euro currency.
The chips are due to be launched later this year in europe. The chips are 0.4 millimeters square and 0.1 millimeter thick.
chips
Posted by gehrig on 22-Jan-2004 09:13:50 (#6298)
these have been around for a few years. i first saw them intro'd as an adjunct to mikohn's "safejack" system.
initially the chips (inside the checques) were expensive such that they were used in $25 and up denominations. table top readers could read the values of "checque changes", buy-ins, players' wagers/payouts. and, since employee theft is the focus, sensors were placed at the dealer entrance to the pit, displayed *only* in the surveillance room.
the use of the table top readers in conjunction with the machine readable playing cards at the shoe, would i.d. "advantage" players using a card counting method. that since the count was displayed for each table. this display was at the pitstiff podium. color changes indicated when the deck at a particular table was "out of line".
another feature was a player card reader slot in front of each player.... "to make sure that the player received all that he had coming to them". comps ? this is a further effort to merge table game and slot play records. table game comps lack the accuracy of slot play. already we see that discretionary comps are disappearing at a couple of corporate group joints. like if you ask for a coffe shop or barfet comp..."give me your card number and i'll see what we can do for you".
no doubt the embedded checque costs will go down such that even the nickels could be tagged.
ah, progress.
Re: New Casino Chips
Posted by feep on 22-Jan-2004 09:59:51 (#6302)
This made me extremely uncomfortable until I thought of several ways to mess with it. Essentially no one can expect these to be 100% reliable. Radio simply isn't. Therefore...
:)
The day is coming when gambling is the swipe of a credit card and having the casino ask you how much you'd like to donate. It's not now, and I don't think it's particularly soon.
Re: New Casino Chips
Posted by Tom on 22-Jan-2004 10:15:14 (#6303)
This RFID stuff has been around for a while.I think it was Bally's in Vegas that first tryed something of that effect back in 97'. It never did catch on with casinos in the USA,so it's really nothing to worry about.
When you say this stuff is "Due to launch" do you mean it's going to be used by most casinos in Europe? I find this hard to believe.
Re: New Casino Chips
Posted by Jim2 on 22-Jan-2004 10:56:31 (#6304)
The magazine article said it was due to launch later this year. No idea where or by which casinos. There will probably be technical problems as with any new device, time will tell. We might be in "the good old days" now.
I hope there is some glitch, seems like I have little enough privacy as it is now.
Re: New Casino Chips
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-Jan-2004 00:12:06 (#6322)
Bet they are using these devices to see who is walking out of the casino with chips. Casinos hate that because they can't easily track winnings, also walking in and out can help you get around the $10000 cashin limit w/o sharing with Uncle Sam.
when the first system was being sold...
Posted by gehrig on 24-Jan-2004 22:52:42 (#6372)
i immediately advised a couple of 21 luminaries. one of these soon after appeared on a symposium/panel consisting of white side/dark side industry "authorities". he twice pointedly asked the mikohn rep if the system was being used to detect skilled players. of course the mikohn rep repeated the party line...that the system was to detect employee theft, to assure accurate player color ups/buy ins, and to verify player comps.
in reality, when the system was demo'd to potential (casino) customers, the issue of 21 game protection from card counters was stressed.
BJ Switch....
Posted by phantom007 on 22-Jan-2004 03:02:47 (#6294)
Will be in LV for about 10 days in mid-April. First 3 days just pleasure, i.e., staying Downtown, a.k.a BJ Business! The rest of the trip on the Strip, but for "regular" business purposes. Had planned to hit appropriate SD/DD action DOWNTOWN, then DD and SF21 action on the Strip, for the rest of the Trip.
BUT NOW I FIND that 4Q's has BJ-Switch.
BONER!
Any ideas on AP for BJ-Switch would be appreciated.
Thanks,
phantom007.
Re: BJ Switch....
Posted by Tom on 22-Jan-2004 04:07:07 (#6295)
I cant say much about BJ switch, but why in the heck would a card counter go to Vegas and waste time playing carnival games?
Re: BJ Switch....
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Jan-2004 06:01:37 (#6297)
Because "Advantage Players" look for the weakness in these games. They may have an advantage. This the comming trend as per Grosjean. Phantom is an extremely Talented and aggressive AP. He is looking to see if there is an advantage.
carnival games
Posted by Tom on 22-Jan-2004 09:23:59 (#6299)
If you're a card counter it's not a good idea to support these new funny carnival games that Vegas keeps coming up. There's too many good traditional blackjack games offered to keep busy.
By the way did you know if you spread 50 to 1 at 6/5 single deck BJ you can win?
BIG deal.
tremendous heat now in the: carnival games
Posted by eyesfor21 on 22-Jan-2004 13:01:11 (#6305)
there was none 8 months ago,,but they the pit have
gone nuts again..with heat on the )(*&(* games of super fun21 and 6/5
no heat on spanish 21 the worst on all
I seen a pit critter sweat 6/5 before-(hee, hee.) *NM*
Posted by Tom on 22-Jan-2004 15:34:22 (#6307)
Re: I seen a pit critter sweat 6/5 before-(hee, hee.)
Posted by John on 22-Jan-2004 17:27:55 (#6311)
I just got back from a trip and there was this guy who was betting the lucky 7s side bet and hitting them. He walked away with over 1000 dollars I believe and when the dealer said "coloring in 1000" the bosses started glaring over their shoulder at the guy and whispering. They went over and picked up the buy-in tally sheet (or whatever that is called) and looked back at him. I asked the guy what "they" were flipping out about and he said "I don't know." The guy had stacks and stacks of greens. I'm sorry. I'm new to all this and it just surprised me. He looked to be about 25 years old. Of course, I 'm not sure what he started with either, but he was on the 5 dollar minimum table!!!! Always good to be red chipping it next to a guy who is coloring in 1000, you know.
Some pit critters never smile at winners.
Posted by Tom on 23-Jan-2004 01:21:17 (#6323)
It's ashame, but they appear to get real anal.
Re: carnival games
Posted by phantom007 on 23-Jan-2004 18:48:54 (#6343)
Correction...10:1 on 6/5 BJ, if you know what you are doing!
phantom007.
Re: carnival games *LINK*
Posted by Geoff Hall on 14-Feb-2004 12:18:10 (#6649)
It is an unfair comparison to advocate an avoidance to play these type of 'carnival' games i.e. 'Blackjack Switch' and use 'BJ pays 6/5' as a comparison.
BJ Switch was invented as a serious proposition for players who want to play a fair game as well as for those players who were looking for a fun alternatve to regular Blackjack.
It is difficult to get acceptance, by casinos, for a game which has a low house edge. Their main arguement being 'Why should we pay for a game that will not make us more money ?'. Obviously, 'BJ Switch' will not compete with the play at an established game i.e. regular Blackjack until it has established itself fully as a regular alternative available in numerous casinos.
This is now the case in Moscow where the game has grown from being in just 1 casino, 10 months ago, to now being available in over 20 casinos in that area. I hope that the same expansion will happen in the USA but I also realise that the clientele are different.
Personally I would rather that Advantage Players avoided the game, in it's early stages, as this may have an effect on the casino's view as to whether to keep the game in as a viable alternative. Once the game has been established then it will be more secure and will be able to withstand a 'hit' by Advantage Players (and this was the case in Moscow when very player-friendly rules were used).
Most Advantage Players will avoid the game for 2 reasons :-
1) They do not know the strategy of the game.
2) They are not aware of the house edge but will presume that it is high (as with most other carnival games).
Some strategies have been posted on the Internet mainly due to it's presence on the Playtech Internet sites. However, the land-based version is slightly different and will therefore involve slight changes in strategy. As far as I am aware, I am the only person (along with Karel Janecek) who has the critical indices for the game, and, for resons stated earlier, I do not wish to release them at this time.
The game at The 4 Queens is a FAIR PROPOSITION - it's not another 'Super Fun 21' or 'BJ Pays a whopping 6/5' style of game. However, the casino must make a reasonable edge on the game to avoid either changing the rules or (worse of all) removing the game completely. If it was hammered in it's early stages by counters reacting to the fact that it may not make it to other casinos, then this will have a very adverse effect on it's expansion. It's a bit of a 'catch 22' - early stages are the best time to catch a new game when casinos are naive towards the strategy but it's also the worse time to catch the game as it will effect it's installation potential into other casinos across America.
Also, eventually there will be a casino that wishes to attract more customers on the game and will possibly employ even more favourable rules as a result.
So, the house edge of the game at The 4 Queens ???
For perfect play it is 0.22% and although this would require perfect 'Switching' (which is unlikely to be done) it is pretty good for a multi-deck game. In fact players would be around 1% better off playing BJ Switch than the other 2 carnival games that I mentioned previously.
The reason that the house edge can be so low is that the 'Switch' gives another 'weapon' to the average player for him to shoot himself in the foot with. 'Switching' errors, along with playing errors, will allow the casino to enjoy at least their usual hold on BJ Switch as they do with regular Blackjack, despite the fact that a knowledgeable Advantage Player may be better off.
So it's a fine balance, especially at this early stage. Too many clever players will deteriorate the expected edge that the average players will give back. Let the game develop and then take your pick from the casinos that have the game in - it will be best for both worlds in the end.
Best regards
Geoff
Re: carnival games
Posted by Sonny on 15-Feb-2004 15:29:33 (#6658)
> Obviously, 'BJ Switch' will not compete with the play at an established
> game i.e. regular Blackjack until it has established itself fully as a
> regular alternative available in numerous casinos.
...or until someone writes a book about how it can be beaten! If there were books with acurate basic strategies (or the casinos started printing and giving away those cute little strategy cards in the gift shop) I think the game would SOAR! Who will be the next to wear Ed Thorp's shoes? This is also a HUGE opportunity for all the John Patricks out there as well!
> Most Advantage Players will avoid the game for 2 reasons :-
> 1) They do not know the strategy of the game.
> 2) They are not aware of the house edge but will presume that it is high
> (as with most other carnival games).
You are absolutely right. These are also the main reasons that ploppies avoid these games. People tend to fear the unfamiliar, especially when their money is at stake. Until people understand the game they will not want to play it. That's where the advantage players come in. It's up to US to make people want to play this game. On the other hand, it is up to US to make sure that other worthless carnival games don't ever become popular. We have more power to promote these games than the casinos do! Sure, we will always be taking money from the good games, but we will be filling the other 5 seats at the table with losers. Without advantage players, the casino games would all fall into obscurity.
-Sonny-
Re: BJ Switch....
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 22-Jan-2004 22:48:24 (#6319)
The Wizardofodds stated the BSE is %0.05. from the game designer herself.
No A.P. OP?
At this point, I would love to hear a reason this game cannot be beaten!
-Felix
I mean...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 22-Jan-2004 23:20:55 (#6320)
-(negative) 0.05
C'mon. What would it take?
-Felix
Rules have changed.
Posted by Tom on 23-Jan-2004 01:28:31 (#6324)
Besides, it's not like you see these games in every casino. I believe in the USA, there's only one table in existence. Trust me, if you're a card counter, a good traditional BJ game is more practical and easier to find.
Re: Rules have changed.
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 23-Jan-2004 18:26:27 (#6340)
>>Rules have changed.
>>Besides, it's not like you see these games in every casino. I believe in the USA, >>there's only one table in existence.
Points taken.
>>if you're a card counter, a good traditional BJ game is more practical and easier to >>find.
For me, Personally, counting cards is not a terribly practical thing to do. Considering my chip level and my salary, "more practical" would mean spending my weekends working. card counting can be profitable, but an aesthetic comes with it too. I couldn't criticize anyone for adding another A.P. Op to their arsenal if they wanted to. Even if they never used it.
-Felix
Re: Rules have changed.
Posted by Tom on 24-Jan-2004 18:04:53 (#6366)
"For me, Personally, counting cards is not a terribly practical thing to do."
Well, maybe not for you,are you even a card counter may I ask? Just because someone has a job does not mean card counting is not practical,of course it is. If all casinos got rid of blackjack I would never visit them or waste my time looking for some golden goose that lays eggs by some fluke of chance or mishap. Dig them broken slots?
Tom
Because "It is There".....
Posted by phantom007 on 23-Jan-2004 18:39:45 (#6342)
BJ Switch, with Perfect BS, offers the Player a -0.05 Disadvantage. Seems to my simple mind that a good CC should be able to "exploit" this game...simply asking if there is any data/ideas as to accomplish same.
Certainly, I would agree, "that a good CC should not waste his/her time on Carnival games", BUT, I must suggest that:
A. Good CC's need "Cover".
B. Cover at a -0.05% game might be better than Craps with 20X odds.
C. I like/want the challenge!
That is my input/explaination.
phantom007.
Re: Because "It is There".....
Posted by Tom on 24-Jan-2004 11:43:35 (#6358)
I'd check to see if the rules are the same before you get started though. It's my understanding there was some tweaking going on with this and that. Do you already know the proper count strategy and index numbers to use?
Good luck,
Tom
I'm worried about being banned
Posted by John on 22-Jan-2004 17:01:19 (#6309)
There is this state that has made it a law that every person has to have a players card. Basically, I had to give them my I.D. and address. Now they have a face with a name. I don't live in that state but I want to go back after a little time has passed. The reasons they give for the law is to keep people from losing 500 dollars or more in two hours but I think the real reason is to make it easy to ban people. I mean they swipe your card when you enter the casino for god's sake.
They asked if I wanted to be "rated". I don't know what that means but I told them no. I think it meant: We lost track of your earnings and now we want to know how much your up.
I went into the casino at about 8:30 a.m. and maybe that was a little suspicious since they open at 8 a.m. I stayed until about 12:30 p.m. and left up almost 80 units.
Is it time to leave when they ask you if you want to be "rated"?
MO is a little bit strange anyway.
Posted by WinBot on 22-Jan-2004 19:01:29 (#6316)
Missouri passed that law to "protect problem gamblers" from themselves. What they really did is make their BJ games almost counter proof. I say almost because if you can't buy more than $500 in chips in an hour you're playing fairly low stakes. I asked a player the last time I was there how thye get around the "buyin limits" and he told me they don't generally cash out at the end of a session, just leave with the cheques for the next time they play and buy in then too. That way they have a substantial bankroll without having to adhere to the foolish limits.
I'm pretty sure that the player card thing is so the casinos can be compliant with the state law and "ratings" are conducted seperately by the casino. I wouldn't worry too much, you'll know when they don't want your action anymore.
You shoulda seen the ruckus I caused when I threy my Harrah's card that I got in AC on the table in St. Louis. It wouldn't read in their terminal AND it wasn't signed by me! WHOA baby....suits and pens all over the place. Hilarious.
Re: I'm worried about being banned
Posted by revereman on 22-Jan-2004 20:29:47 (#6318)
Among the various reasons that they ask you to be rated is for you to earn comps. True, they also like to keep track of your wins and losses. Once you reach the green chip ($25) level, it's more suspicious when you refuse to be rated than the risks you take to be rated. Depending on the casino and your play level, comps can easily exceed $500 for a weekend.
Re: I'm worried about being banned
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Jan-2004 07:29:49 (#6328)
95% of what a person worries about never happens. If it does, worrying about it before it does does you no good. Use your cover. Just because you have a card doesn't mean you have to use it. Sit down and when they ask you for your card tell them you left it in your room. Make them print you a new one. Every time you go past a bank of slots stuff your card in one and leave it there. Someone will end up playing it and smearing slot points onto it, and you'll look like a star.
And if you get barred, don't worry about that either. It's like getting to work late.
"Don't worry, be happy"
I agree. Don't worry -- Be happy.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 23-Jan-2004 09:22:06 (#6332)
You can count on the fingers on one hand the number of people that have been barred in that State for counting in all the years they have had casinos.
They won't bar you (they have gotten huge fines from the gaming commission for this in the past) they will merely move the cut card and make the game unplayable.
As mentioned, there are ways around the $500 per 2 hour limit. Go buy in for $500, leave, eat at a resturant, come back buy in for $500 more, leave. etc.
Also don't cash in winnings and build a bank of chips, etc.
Give them your name, get rated, you will probably get offers for free rooms and meals the next time you do come back. Relax, these joints have 100,000+ visitors per year, the ID thing is the State's doing, the casinos would love to get rid of it.
Re: I agree. Don't worry -- Be happy.
Posted by John on 23-Jan-2004 23:42:56 (#6349)
You guys are great. Thanks for the advice. I feel like even though I was up 80 units there (my biggest ever), I could have made another 80 given a few more hours. I was in "the zone" or something. Hmmm..maybe I could have gotten a hotel room. That place was great, too. It was probably the best casino I have ever been too. I found a great dealer. I actually tipped him, too and if you get a tip from me then you are lucky. Blackjack...tip, blackjack....tip. He didn't mind me hitting my 13 vs. 2 's or my 12 vs. 6's . I'm a red chipper now but I hope to be in green really soon. I played at a green table in my last trip but it was one of those play the first 5 hands....win 5 in a row....lose the 6th hand, and leave and act like your mad type of deal.
There was this one casino that was absolutely horrible. The worse I've ever been to. I walked in and the security guard, acting confrontational, said "Can I help you?" I said, "yeah, I'm trying to find the casino." Duh!! Why he was acting that way was beyond me but I think it has to do with me looking like I'm 17 years old. Okay, I look 17 but I'm 27. Man, those security guards look at me like I'm trying to steal chips but I'm there to use my mind. There was one playable bj game there. Only one!! The rest were CSM's . 10 tables: 9 were csm's and one actually dealt from the shoe (25 dollar table) . That is the worst I've seen. I made about 32 units (as a red chipper) in 5 minutes. I left, and I don't know if I'll go back there.
Rob, I think that in Missouri, you can't play unless you have your card or an I.D. So the woops, I left it in a slot machine deal won't work I don't think.
All in all, the pit bosses treated me fairly well and I don't think I was even around that much for them to talk to me. I'm usually the one betting the smallest on the table. Do you guys drink beer while you play? I'm not much of a drinker but it sure would loosen me up. My family gets tired of me talking about blackjack so y'all will have to deal with me now.
Re: I agree. Don't worry -- Be happy.
Posted by Stealth on 24-Jan-2004 20:32:31 (#6369)
Hey John:
Your sounding kinda wild-eyed and bushy-tailed, which is great. But I hope your not getting a false sense of security out there.
I just want to say, keep your head on straight and keep gaining knowledge. Welcome to the board.
Interesting point you made
Posted by Stealth on 24-Jan-2004 03:23:36 (#6350)
Abraham de Moivre, you said:
They won't bar you (they have gotten huge fines from the gaming commission for this in the past)
So what's up with the Missouri Gaming Commish? Nev certainly doesn't take the same position. Do you know of any case history on the subject? Please elaborate more on this. Tell us what you know.
how many fingers do you have on your hands
Posted by jpb. on 24-Jan-2004 11:19:38 (#6356)
you can count the number of card counters that have been barred from playing blackjack on both hands if you had all ten fingers (counting the thumb as a finger) cut off.
And they cannot tell you you are allowed to only bet $50.00. If they do that, go find the gaming commission on board (the person may or may not have a clue as to what is allowed) and then fil a WRITTEN COMPLAINT on a form found on hte MGC website.
They can and cut pen and maybe lower entire table limit. They are also allowed pref shuffle, but as far as I know only Ameristar is doing this. If they are not using these countermeasures you are still below the radar.
Re: how many fingers do you have on your hands
Posted by eyesfor21 on 24-Jan-2004 18:14:16 (#6367)
The casino's do want they want and the gaming commision does what
it wants too.they al make there own rules and even have there own
special police to enfore what they want on there side..
Regarding flat betting they tell many players that..often
Regading pref shuffle-that is more rare..
Trip Report
Posted by John on 22-Jan-2004 18:29:10 (#6315)
Wow, what a trip I had. I really surprised myself and I had probably the most profitable 2 days in my life. To summarize, in a 2 day trip to a neighboring state, I'm up 200 units. I never lost, either. I don't know why I didn't but I just didn't. I visited 4 casinos and made an average of 40 units in each one. I hit 4 9s in video poker after putting in 10 dollars for a 230 dollar win. I hit the 4 9s on a 4 dollar bet. This is the second 4 of a kind I've had in one week. I'm just starting out and am really starting to get serious as in going to the casinos every week (different ones of course). So far, I've turned a starting bankroll of 50 units (which isn't much but all I needed) into 370 units in 20 days. I didn't work all 20 days. This is from Jan. 2nd to Jan. 22 . I'm really happy and I hope you guys can be happy for me since I've been reading the messages on this board since it was created. I mean since The Mayor had re-created it about a year ago I think.
I'm happy because I made in 2 days as much as I made in an entire month before at my old job. That blows my mind. I just hope I don't get banned. I think I need to chill out a little on the wonging in. The wonging out is okay but the wonging in probably looks suspicious. I try to watch TV and glance at how big the discard tray is and time it just right with the start of the shuffle so I don't spend too long watching.
Re: Trip Report
Posted by revereman on 22-Jan-2004 20:26:16 (#6317)
Congratulations. And now back to reality--anyone who has played BJ as an AP will tell you that it is a rollercoaster ride. The highs are higher but the lows are lower. For every double and split you won on this trip you could lose 5 of them the next trip. Certain VP games are good and others not so good, so be careful there. I'm really not trying to rain on your parade but just trying to provide a reality check. Continued good fortune.
Re: Trip Report
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-Jan-2004 00:06:06 (#6321)
Great trip! But don't get too happy and don't quit your day job. For the opposite will happen on other trips. Some days, anything that can go wrong will.
Don't take this wrong, because I don't mean it as a putdown or anything, but the fact that you are putting $10 into a VP machine may indicate that you are relying on your luck more than your math. It feels great, but you know what your EV is. EV is noncumulative, meaning that next time you go out don't be planning on losing almost as much as you won because the game has no memory and your EV for that next session has not changed. Just hang on for the crash and the awful results, because it is not a matter of if, but when. But in the long term, if you are playing your game right, you'll be ahead.
Re: Trip Report
Posted by John on 23-Jan-2004 23:18:55 (#6348)
Yeah, that damn reality. I am enjoying it now but I know you are right. The thing is, I'm reaching every goal that I am setting for myself and it seems unreal. Also, video poker is kind of what I do while I'm waiting for opportune blackjack games so that is why I put in 10 dollars. Thanks for your input. I'll keep you up-to-date (if you care) as to how I'm doing. BTW, I am going to the casinos next week as well. I'll let you know what happens even if I get hit hard. I was so "high" after that trip that I didn't sleep for ummm....about 48 hours. Well, it was a little medicine, the caffeine, and the winning, and I was on a good high for a while. Not a narcotic high just walking on air. Its hard to come down for me. I'm usually okay but the win was the biggest I've ever had. I was doing so well that I actually started to loosen up at the tables and joke with the ploppies. Also, I don't worry about my ups and downs because I have no kids or wife.
Re: Trip Report
Posted by Tom on 24-Jan-2004 11:37:54 (#6357)
Good going John. What's your bet spread and how many hours of actual BJ did you play,units won?
I've started the year off on a good roll,myself. 22 hours of action and up 92 units. I'm not going to get cocky,you can bet on that.
Tom
Re: Trip Report
Posted by John on 24-Jan-2004 13:22:54 (#6359)
Well, I don't set any real limits as to how long I play. I usually have a goal in mind but if things don't go well then I forgive myself for not achieving it and change the game plan.
1 to 10 unit bet spread.
Wong in at around +2 as much as possible but sometimes I just sit down.
Wong out at -1 or -2 unless I'm winning then I stay.
Also, if it is hand shuffled, many times if you just had a good shoe, the next one will not be too bad either so I stay many times and get as much as I can.
As far as time goes, the trip went like this:
Casino one: 10 minutes + 32 red units or 6 green and change
Casino two: 3 1/2 hours + 36 units
Casino three: 4 1/2 hours + 74 units
Casino four: 2 hours + 20 units and video poker +230 dollars
Then went home.
Re: Trip Report
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Jan-2004 15:28:11 (#6362)
>1 to 10 unit bet spread.
Not necessary if you are wonging ... A 1-4 spread is almost as good.
>Wong in at around +2 as much as possible but sometimes I just sit down.
Good.
>Wong out at -1 or -2 unless I'm winning then I stay.
If you are playing with a negative count, then you are losing. Period.
>Also, if it is hand shuffled, many times if you just had a good shoe, the next one will not be too bad either
This is absolute crap -- sorry 8-)
Re: Trip Report
Posted by John on 24-Jan-2004 22:25:36 (#6371)
>Also, if it is hand shuffled, many times if you just had a good shoe, the next one will not be too bad either
This is absolute crap -- sorry 8-)
Mayor, I was just refering to the MIT students and how the dealers don't have enough time to shuffle the cards as well as they should. Is it bull?
MIT = Shuffle-tracking
Posted by Cyrano on 25-Jan-2004 21:38:15 (#6378)
What they do in the book is a form of shuffle-tracking.
Re: Trip Report
Posted by Hal Jordan on 24-Jan-2004 15:52:30 (#6363)
"Also, if it is hand shuffled, many times if you just had a good shoe, the next one will not be too bad either so I stay many times and get as much as I can."
Be careful following advice like the above. If you continue to play with a mindset like this you will be down those three hundred and some odd units in no time. Trust the math, forget the voodoo.
HJ
An overreaction
Posted by revereman on 24-Jan-2004 17:07:22 (#6364)
by you and the Mayor. All he's saying is that if he has a good shoe, he will stay at the same table. He didn't say anything about playing through a negative count in the next shoe just because he had a good shoe previously. If you really want to get analytical, it's probably good to stay at the table after a good shoe since many counters will just take the money and run.
Re: An overreaction
Posted by Hal Jordan on 25-Jan-2004 09:34:37 (#6373)
I agree that he should do all that he can not to look like a counter, what I am unsure about is where he states: "many times if you just had a good shoe, the next one will not be too bad either."
Everyone has their own style, but I think thoughts like this running through the head are the reason many players stay to play bad games.
HJ
Re: An overreaction
Posted by revereman on 25-Jan-2004 10:54:46 (#6374)
The answer lies in how he plays the next shoe. There is nothing inherently wrong in playing the next shoe after a good one. Only he knows the answer to that one.
Agreed (NM) *NM*
Posted by Hal Jordan on 25-Jan-2004 18:19:34 (#6377)
Re: Trip Report
Posted by Tom on 24-Jan-2004 17:40:04 (#6365)
Even though you have been extremely(?) lucky, I think you're doing a mighty find job. I like your strategy,it's almost the same as mine, except I come in on any RC over 6 and make a 2 unit bet. My spread is a little different,I often go to two hands of 6 units any chance I get,otherwise I'll bet up to 10 units on one spot and leave if the count (TC) drops to -2. I started this ruthless strategy years ago and stuck with it. My results have been most rewarding,winning at twice the rate as when I use to play-all.
Good luck,
Tom
Re: Trip Report
Posted by wong out on 24-Jan-2004 08:23:06 (#6353)
Congrats on a nice win! You got lots of good advice here. Dont make the mistake of confusing variance with the thought that somehow you found the mother lode or are "supergambler". On a typical trip my swings (which are expected) would allow me to buy or lose a luxury car; at the end of the trip I am happy if I have enough left over to pay for the 1SB upgrade package on my GM. You have to expect big swings but dont get excited about (certainly dont spend them)the wins and dont get depressed about the losses (expect them) - get the hours in and hope that you make your ev.
21 is a tough grind; its even tougher if you feel any emotion in response to the wins/losses.
wong out
Positive EV with flat bet
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-Jan-2004 01:55:21 (#6326)
Playing around with sims, I calculated that if you are playing a liberal ruled SD game (-0.14% EV for BS) and use Hi-Opt II with full indexes and a flat bet, you will raise the EV to about +0.10%. Certainly not the kind of EV you want, but I can think of some uses for the technique... decoy, card-eating, comps, etc. Did I do my sim right?
Re: Positive EV with flat bet
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Jan-2004 07:21:15 (#6327)
Probably. It is a helluva good count.
Re: Positive EV with flat bet
Posted by Feep on 23-Jan-2004 11:03:51 (#6337)
I'm used to spreading wildly at shoes. What kind of spread can one get away with at single deck? Seems like even a 1-3 spread would increase your EV significantly and get barely a nod from the pit. It also seems like people generally use 1-8 at double deck. Is this correct? I'm considering expanding my horizons.
Feep
Re: Positive EV with flat bet
Posted by wong out on 24-Jan-2004 08:32:01 (#6354)
What kind of spread you can get away with? Depends on many factors such as your bet level; amount of high play in casino, casino crowds; their tolerance etc. I mostly play shoe games but when I visit a locale where I wont be back for a while I have no prob spreading hand helds pretty aggresively. If the place is somewhere that you want to milk over time then kind of feel them out to see what they will accept. Sorry I cant be more specific but there are too many factors to know what kind of spread you can get away with. There are some cover advantages possible to using a wide spread at hand helds if you can make it look natural....
wong out
In search of the perfect C system
Posted by Stealth on 23-Jan-2004 07:46:35 (#6329)
My brother wants to learn to count. He wants me to decide which system is best suited for him. Right now he is a near perfect BS player. I'm convinced he doesn't have the patience and perseverance to learn and properly use a level 2 count. However, he wants the option to add in a side C of aces later.
I'm personally using AOII. Given such, it goes against my grain to count aces in the main and on the side. I want to offer my brother a system that is powerful, easy to learn and use and if needed he can later add in a side C of aces.
How about I teach him the following balanced system:
2, 8 & A = 0 each
3,4,5,6,7 = +1 each
9,10,J,Q,K = -1 each
Does this system have a name? How accurate and perfect would it rate with or without a side of aces? Can I get the play and betting indexes for it?
Comments and suggestions please.
Stealth
Re: In search of the perfect C system
Posted by Sonny on 23-Jan-2004 11:08:09 (#6338)
> I'm personally using AOII. Given such, it goes against
> my grain to count aces in the main and on the side.
> I want to offer my brother a system that is powerful,
> easy to learn and use and if needed he can later add
> in a side C of aces.
Why not use Hi-Opt I? It's an easy level 1 count similar to Hi-Low with the ace count on the side. It's a very weak system without the aces, but maybe you could teach him the Hi-Low and add an ace side count later.
-Sonny-
Stick with AOII.............
Posted by phantom007 on 23-Jan-2004 19:07:01 (#6344)
for SD and DD....Keeping "Ace Side-Counts" will certainly help increase long-term EV. For 6D and 8D, I recommend "Revere Systematic Count", aka, "Silver Fox". DO NOT use AOII for anything past DD, unless you are so "anal retentive" that you want to track A's to the 1/4-Deck!
IMHO.
phantom007.
Re: In search of the perfect C system
Posted by deZerTomB on 23-Jan-2004 19:33:02 (#6345)
I started out with A,10 (-1) and 2,3,4,5,6 (+1) then went to 10 (-1) and 3,4,5,6 (+1) with ace side count using letters starting with A for ace hehe. But that's not really the hard part. It's honing your strategy for remebering which cards have been counted and not and remebering the count between deals when there is a delay. I like to group up the low and high cards on the table, cancelling each other out, rather than each card individually and that takes several hours of real time practice. Then adjust running count to true count. Don't forget the ace count in the adjustment. Next how to ramp up your bet without drawing attention. Next look for dealer flashing cards. Next shuffle tracking and cutting cards. Cutting the cards is your most powerful tool for controlling the count. Throw the Ill 18 in there and variations in penetration and counting is the easy part.
Or the very very first step could be raisng your bet when you see a bunch of low cards and few or no tens on the table. Which is what I first started doing with very limited success. 8+)
Re: In search of the perfect C system
Posted by Stealth on 24-Jan-2004 20:36:46 (#6370)
What if we were to compare the Canfield Expert with a side of A's to Hi-Lo or K-O, how would it stack up? My bro will use it primarily for 6D.
Re: In search of the perfect C system
Posted by Stealth on 23-Jan-2004 20:31:38 (#6347)
Hi-Opt I is okay but my idea was to add in the 7 and the 9. Maybe that would give it a little more umph until my bro adds in a side C of aces. Here's what Hi-Opt I without the side of aces looks like on paper:
A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 BC PE IC
0 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 -1 .88 .61 .85
The problem I have with Hi-Low is that the aces are in the main count. Seems wrong to count them twice if adding them also into a side C. Also, I think maybe the 7 should be counted instead of the 2 which is not a big problem.
Question: Would Hi-Opt I with a side of aces be more accurate and powerful than Hi-Low with a side of aces? What if I added in the 7 & 9 into Hi-Opt I?
Stealth
Top Poster List for 2003
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Card Counter Management on 23-Jan-2004 09:45:05 (#6333)
Below is a list of our posters. We left out the names of several because they had registered there handle but never posted.
As you can see Rob Mcgarvey is number one. Our congrats go to Rob. He is a brilliant Advantage player and has added much discussion to this site.
Number two is our illustrious Mayor who was the architect and geniuse behind Card Counter.com. Card Counter Management took over this site approximately a year ago and has seen the Mayor and the site skyrocket. Our thanks go to the Mayor for his endless giving of his experience and his knowledge. He is a Teacher first and a Advantage Player second.
We also would like to thank several noted world class pros and several celebrities who have graced us with thier knowledge: LasVegasBear, alienated, Wong Out, Titaniumman, Norm Wattenberger, Kevin Blackwood, DVCellini, Adam N Subtractum, and Henry Tamburin.
We also would like to add en memorium the passing of El Burro who was a highly skilled AP and who lived a fast but tragic life.
Finally a special mention to our home site pros: Phantom007, Sammyboy, Abraham de Moivre, T-Hopper, Sonny, 101, Felix Rue-de-Guerre, Stealth Bomber, Victoria, HiNoon, revereman, FLA Player;thanks to all of you. The list could go on. To all the rest we hope you perfect your skills and take the Casinos!
Poster; # of Posts; % of Total; Most Recent Post
ZG got 3rd place????
Posted by phantom007 on 23-Jan-2004 18:16:49 (#6339)
And he ain't posted since 1/03??? Certainly miss ZG...offered excellent advice on many important, and often, Unimportant AP issues. Every time my Hemorrhoids act up, I think of ZG!
And I, phantom007, do thank CCM for recognition as a "Site Pro", but just curious, what does it take to become a "World Class Pro"???
Next time the BIG MUSCLED SECURITY GUARDS at the New Frontier try to take me to the "back-room", I will state: "You cannot do this...I am a "site Pro" at CC.com"....then I will get a Cavity search, and again...
I will think of ZG!
phantom007.
Your hemorroids....hahahahahahahahahahah
Posted by Learning to count on 23-Jan-2004 18:29:40 (#6341)
thats too much...hahahahahaha...i'm sure ole ZG is thinking about you too....
Re: ZG got 3rd place????
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jan-2004 20:10:11 (#6346)
I think these numbers are not just for this year, but since the board opened. ZG was one of the most prolific posters before his, eh, vacation.
WoW!
Posted by wong out on 24-Jan-2004 08:38:28 (#6355)
I had no idea that there were so many posters on here! Congrats to all for helping to make this an informative and fun place to visit. Congrats to Rob for being the top poster; its great that you can give so much time and your posts are generally very good. Also many thanks to CC mgmt for the nice words although I think that they were overstated. All right time to get back to play....
wong out
A Little Recognition
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 26-Jan-2004 07:40:00 (#6382)
goes a long way. Thanks for all the kind words. I enjoy helping out where I can, it is a part of my nature. For months ZG was miles ahead of everyone. It kinda reminds me of the race between the Rabbit and the Turtle. While ZG is "sleeping" The Mayor and I passed him, but you can bet your bottom dollar when he wakes up again, he'll pass us all in a heart beat. Picture a well rested rabbit with his ass-tear-roids on fire, and you'll get the picture. I just hope he is in a good mood when he gets out.
Bottom line is; there is no race. Make today the best day of your life. Carry on!!
Rob
Rob is right.
Posted by Titaniumman on 26-Jan-2004 19:50:05 (#6389)
Nothing like being appreciated.
I noticed that I've only made 10 posts. I'll try to be more active in the future, and contribute something of value.
Thanks, guys. It's a good site.
-T-
Re: Rob is right.
Posted by revereman on 26-Jan-2004 19:56:43 (#6390)
I think you got the recognition for the best abbreviated name, titman. :)
Nah, this is the best abbreviation. (Look closely.)
Posted by Titaniumman on 26-Jan-2004 20:54:04 (#6393)
(oYo)
Nice rack, Tt-man! *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 03-Feb-2004 06:40:45 (#6499)
friend gets tossed out and shackled by casino thugs
Posted by eyesfor21 on 25-Jan-2004 23:17:06 (#6380)
A well known casino threw out my friend who was winning at
the time and drinking. He is a very heavy drinker.He later stumbled
bank to the casino-
4 hours later black and blue from the casino thugs. They apparently
dragged
him out of town and that is where the chaos happened.
Yes they have there own rules and the gaming commission does nothing
but protect there own.
Its a sad day...
Re: friend gets tossed out and shackled by casino thugs
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 26-Jan-2004 07:18:03 (#6381)
You need to see Open Range bro. Your friend needs to go play and get drunk today, only this time? You'll know what to do.
Re: friend gets tossed out and shackled by casino thugs
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 28-Jan-2004 02:56:05 (#6417)
Where the Christ did this happen?
The Thugs worked for the On-Line Casinos...
Posted by phantom007 on 03-Feb-2004 06:44:44 (#6500)
...they were beating up Bonus Hustler's. Were last seen in Detroit, and heading towards Toronto (grin).
phantom007.
21 + 3 sidebet
Posted by gross on 26-Jan-2004 15:49:43 (#6388)
I had a wild experience at one of the Indiana riverboats this past Friday. The bj tables were crowded, so I played straight bj at a 21 + 3 sidebet table (6d, s17, das, etc.) Because I was having a good session and had been watching the other ploppies loosing at bj but making money on the side bet - I played the side bet for the first time (the tc was +8 and I thought I might catch some faces with only two other players). (yes, I know the house has a 5%+ advantage on this bet). Here is what happened -
first side bet -10$ - J,K dealer Q win $90 dealer bust
next hand side bet - 45$ - 10,10 and dealer 10 win $405 dealer push
next hand side bet - 45$ - 8,9 and dealer 10 win $405 dealer 19
and then believing this could never happen 4 times in a row, I was dealt an A,K
snapper with the dealer showing a queen. Unfortunately I didn't play the side
bet, not even for the rest of the night. My question?
What are the approximate odds of getting a winning side bet on 4 consecutive hands from a 6 deck shoe? Approximately .1 x .1 x.1 x.1 = 1 in 10,000?
Re: 21 + 3 sidebet
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Jan-2004 20:09:00 (#6391)
Nice run!
Of course, asking what the odds are has only one answer, the odds are a perfect 100% -- because the event has already occured it is therefore certain to have occured.
This reminds me of the way people rave about coincidences... and then try and tell me about the fantastic odds against this or that coincidence having occured. My question back is simple: what are all the possible coincidences that could have happend today? Out of that rather large set of possibilities, don't you think it rather likely that one or more of them would happen?
--Mayor
Re: 21 + 3 sidebet
Posted by Feep on 27-Jan-2004 20:15:27 (#6409)
Which is what both terrifies and elates me sometimes about being an advantage player.
For the set of all possible players most will end up in the middle. Some will hit their EV, some won't.
But there is one player out there who will never lose. He just never will. Not because he is lucky, or good. Just because he happened to never lose.
And there is one player out there who will never win. He just never will. Not because he is unlucky, or bad. Just because he happened to never win.
Which am I? I could become either one in a moment, in the blink of an eye, and never know it.
Has it already happened?
What is my 1% advantage in the face of God?
Feep
Got backed off...now fear Griffin.
Posted by R. Smith on 27-Jan-2004 01:35:24 (#6394)
I played for three straight days an upscale (Strip quality), large, casino off the Strip in Las Vegas. I varied my bets from $5-$25. In the last hours of my third day, I was told I was "too good" to play blackjack, but I was free to play any other game. Unfortunately, I was being rated at this casino during my stay and I used my real name. (I stayed at this casino as a guest, too.)
This was my first time ever being backed off. I couldn't believe it! I thought for sure that no one would even bother watching me because of the relatively low amounts I was betting. Also, I had lost about $400 over my three days and I only won back about $100 before getting backed off.
Like I said, this was an upscale casino. Tons of cameras. Plus, I had played there for probably 20 hours or so over the three days. Plenty of time for photographs. Now I'm concerned about being in this Griffin facial recognition database. I really enjoy playing blackjack. I feel bad knowing that I may only last 10-15 minutes anywhere I go now.
Am I being paranoid or has it gotten this bad...?
Re: Got backed off...now fear Griffin.
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Jan-2004 09:48:03 (#6401)
You are definitely getting paranoid. You will not get griffined for a $25 max bet. One backoff does not equate to getting in Griffin. You have to pose a serious threat.
But, the lessons should be well learned ...
No matter which casino you were playing, the $5-$25 spread couldn't beat their games (double/six decks) so I don't know what they were worried about. You are not betting enough or spreading enough to make these games worth while, it must have been your persistence that finally got you the backoff. I bet they knew after the first hour, but didn't care.
--Mayor
This is nuts.
Posted by Tom on 27-Jan-2004 10:13:26 (#6402)
Are you trying to say you were barred from playing blackjack at a high class Vegas Casino and your top bet was only 25 bucks!!? Usually they dont even waste the time of day with nickel bettors. Are you sure there was not any disputes or disturbances going on? The only possible way I could get barred at these high rolling Vegas joints betting only 5 or 25 bucks is if I tried on purpose,maybe spit in the dealers face,cheat,puke,raging fist,etc.
"Like I said, this was an upscale casino. Tons of cameras. Plus, I had played there for probably 20 hours or so over the three days. Plenty of time for photographs. Now I'm concerned about being in this Griffin facial recognition database. I really enjoy playing blackjack. I feel bad knowing that I may only last 10-15 minutes anywhere I go now. Am I being paranoid or has it gotten this bad...?"
Well I guess if you got barred, it's not only gotton bad,but downright pathetic. You are being paranoid though,it's not like you're a big threat now and will be barred all over the world.
I know some comp hustlers and card counters will tell you it's essential to always use your card,this is far from true. Player cards to me is useless most the time because I move around too much. When a shoe goes bad I'm gone,besides what's an hour or so of action going to get me these days,a bowl of soup? Big Deal.
Tom
if "guest" means "comped"...
Posted by gehrig on 27-Jan-2004 10:57:02 (#6404)
then without question, the quality of your play was reviewed by the assigned host. "comped" would include a "casino rate" attained through *any* host, table game or slot department.
improvements in player tracking and evaluation systems are outpacing the advances in surveillance attributes for cheating/"advantage" play. for several years the trend is to equate the efficiency of table game play to that of the slot programs. think about it... slot comp systems are "exact"*, while table game comps are still discretionary in an ever diminishing number of joints. overcomping as accomplished using a few published table game player techniques, will soon disappear. already some rug joints request a player's card number before the issuance of a comp...the 'stiff brings up the player's cumulative and current session records before writing the comp. "let's seee what we can do for you". "we" being the player's record, not the whim of the pitstiff. even at decent, mid-level rug joints the majority of pit game supervisors no longer have "the power of the pen".
a corollary to that "overcomping" was exposed when a "frugal-gambling-person" was effectively 86'd from slot club benefits at the orleans. that, though the player had steered likely thousands of players to the joint via travel channel segments. of course, one could expect no less from the family renowned for the instant/baby-bath water 86's for winning 21 players.
thus the "advantage" 21 player might be enmeshed in the net cast to i.d. comp hustlers.
* there are methods to work that slot comp system but since i currently use them, no sense in discarding them.
gehrig is correct.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 27-Jan-2004 17:04:53 (#6407)
Several of the top end Strip joints have very sophisticated computer tracking programs to make sure guests are not getting too much in comps.
Perhaps you were caught in one of these, and they wanted to keep your current loss as profit, figuring they weren't likely to be able to win more, and the longer you stayed the more it could cost in comps.
MIT Counting System
Posted by Sniper on 27-Jan-2004 01:58:47 (#6395)
Does anybody know what the strategy and card counting systems the MIT students used to rake in millions. Please reply back if you know the answer.
Re: MIT Counting System
Posted by Big Cowboy on 27-Jan-2004 08:27:42 (#6397)
They used HiLo and worked in teams--using back counters, flat betters, language signals, big bettor, etc.
Re: MIT Counting System
Posted by SammyBoy on 27-Jan-2004 12:56:54 (#6405)
Cowboy is correct. I emailed Andy Bloch a few weeks ago and he told me that they used Hi/Lo with FULL indices.
FULL indices
Posted by Tom on 30-Jan-2004 04:29:55 (#6446)
How many index numbers is considered to be Full indices?
Re: FULL indices
Posted by SammyBoy on 30-Jan-2004 16:42:08 (#6452)
I would guess all indices between +10 and -10, not really sure though. I will check PBJ this weekend and let you know.
Wong gives -20 to +20 for 1 and 4 decks (PBJ) *NM*
Posted by John Lewis on 01-Feb-2004 01:04:42 (#6474)
Re: FULL indices
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Feb-2004 00:38:09 (#6472)
Don't waste your time learning the full indexes, as no more than a couple of dozen are worth more than pennies per hour even at the black chip level. The value of an index is related to your spread at a particular TC and how often you see that TC. It takes a bit of simulation and calculation tailored for your particular spread and count to see what indexes are worth learning.
Re: FULL indices
Posted by Tom on 01-Feb-2004 13:49:14 (#6482)
I'm content using only 22 indices. I understand using too many index numbers is a waste of time,just wondering why the MIT team did not think so. By definition I'm wondering what Bring Down the House's(or MIT) version of FULL indices are.
Hey, but I also wonder about many other actions and obscurities in the book. Thank you all for the info.
Tom
Re: FULL indices
Posted by CanKen on 01-Feb-2004 10:10:10 (#6478)
Depends on the game you are playing. But I would say that for 6 or 8 deck games, you shouldn't be playing below -1, and the count rarely, in my experience, gets above +6. That leaves about 25 useful indices in the -1 to +6 range.
BlackJack Pro
Posted by Latimer on 11-Jun-2004 10:41:22 (#8739)
Has anyone read or used the card counting computer module, Blackjack Pro. I am wondering how effective the module can be and if it is worth the time to even mess with.
Notice to members and posters
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by card counter management on 27-Jan-2004 08:12:17 (#6396)
If any CC.CO Member has a profile and does not have emmediate posting ability vis a vis a pass word please let us know by posting below. If you have a profile listed and you forgot your password I will resend you a new password.
To any new posters if you make a profile you will be given a pass word. When you recieve your password. Please post that you now have a profile. We will give you emmediate access to posting.
Please: to all members and new members please abide by the rules and remember we do not tolerate any VOODOO theories of any type here. Freedom of speech is a political social contract between every citizen and the government. This is a private service opened to the public which is allowed to have strict posting rules and editing rights. Per our previous practice we allow open discussion about casino comportment, card counting, and mathmatically sound advantage play.
In order to allow for other interesting and open debate we have the non-BJ page where many views about other types of gambling and other social issues are allowed. We do keep an eye on this page and seldom have any probelms here. We do not allow any overt verbal violence or threats there.
Once again we congratulate all our posters for making this an excellent alternative to the status quo Advantage Play sites. May your play empty the tray. CC.COM
need bypass *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 27-Jan-2004 09:22:27 (#6398)
You got it. *NM*
Posted by CC.Com Management on 27-Jan-2004 09:43:46 (#6400)
Me too, please *NM*
Posted by Stealth on 27-Jan-2004 10:20:59 (#6403)
Re: Me too, please
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by CC.COM Management on 27-Jan-2004 13:20:08 (#6406)
Stealth you have two listings. One poster name of stealth and one for Stealth Bomber. You should have a password for stealth bomber. Let me know.
Re: Me too, please
Posted by Stealth on 27-Jan-2004 20:25:01 (#6411)
I thought I had a password and it is in the memory of the system. Until resently my posts appeared instantly but now it goes through you first. I just assumed you guys thought maybe I was working for the casinos or something and wanted to keep a close eye on me. ;-) lol
Yes, I revised my name to Stealth Bomber a while back but the old name still exists in the profiles. Your welcomed to delete the old profile.
Thank you:
Stealth
Re: Me too, please
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Card Counter Management on 28-Jan-2004 07:40:08 (#6418)
You have to post as Stealth Bomber. I have sent you a new "PASSWORD". Please print out the e-mail and file it. If you dod not recieve the password let me us know.
Re: Notice to members and posters
Posted by WinBot on 27-Jan-2004 18:51:11 (#6408)
My Counter-Intelligence handle didn't receive or deleted password verification am currently posting as WinBot
Re: Notice to members and posters
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Card Counter Management on 28-Jan-2004 07:42:01 (#6419)
You have to post as Counter-Intelligence. I have sent you a new password. Please put the password in a safe place. Let us know if you recieved it or not.
Re: Notice to members and posters
Posted by Counter -Intelligence on 28-Jan-2004 19:01:33 (#6430)
I didn't get it. I've been deleting mail due to the virus. pls send it to <A HREF="mailto:
Thanks and sorry for the confusion
We sent you a new password! *NM*
Posted by Card Counter Management on 28-Jan-2004 20:05:50 (#6432)
Re: Notice to members and posters
Posted by Feep on 27-Jan-2004 20:18:57 (#6410)
Lots my password for feepness. I've been using Feep but that's not my name. I'm feepness damnit.
Feep
PS: feepness@hotmail.com
Re: Notice to members and posters
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Card Counter Management on 28-Jan-2004 07:43:53 (#6420)
You must post as Feepness. I have sent you a new password. Please store your password in a safe place. Let us know if you have recieved the new password.
Same Here (NM) *NM*
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 28-Jan-2004 13:56:25 (#6425)
Re: Same Here
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 28-Jan-2004 17:03:34 (#6426)
Bypass moderation that is.
Thanks
-Shag
Re: Same Here
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Card Counter Management on 28-Jan-2004 17:07:03 (#6427)
You now can post with your password.
Just a test *NM*
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 29-Jan-2004 19:00:08 (#6444)
Need Bypass Please *NM*
Posted by Hal Jordan on 28-Jan-2004 18:57:55 (#6429)
Do you know your password? Try it! *NM*
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Card Counter Management on 28-Jan-2004 20:06:55 (#6433)
You need to make a profile! *NM*
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Card Counter Management on 28-Jan-2004 20:09:12 (#6434)
Re: Notice to members and posters
Posted by Radar on 28-Jan-2004 19:58:20 (#6431)
Got a password, but when I left a post, it didn't work...help!
Try it again! *NM*
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Card Counter Management on 28-Jan-2004 20:11:35 (#6435)
Can I get a bypass? *NM*
Posted by John on 31-Jan-2004 12:41:49 (#6462)
Re: Can I get a bypass?
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Card Counter Management on 31-Jan-2004 19:47:49 (#6467)
Try it out. It should work.
Re: Could I get a bypass please? *NM*
Posted by Bjackstudent on 01-Feb-2004 14:14:54 (#6483)
Re: Notice to members and posters
Posted by Mr Pill on 05-Feb-2004 11:16:24 (#6544)
Need bypass too.
Thanks,
Excellent article on Card counting law!
Posted by Learning to count on 27-Jan-2004 09:42:00 (#6399)
Blackjack Insider Newsletter, Jan. 2004, #48
IS CARD COUNTING LEGAL?
By Henry Tamburin
Henry Tamburin is the editor of the Blackjack Insider Newsletter and author of the best-selling book Blackjack: Take The Money & Run.
This article gives a brief overview of the complicated issue of the legality of card counting. Historically most of the known cases have come from Nevada and Atlantic City.
"Is blackjack card counting illegal"?
As long as a card counter is only using his brains to decide how to play his hand, then the act of card counting is not illegal.
"How do casinos get away with excluding card counters from playing blackjack"? "Isn't this discrimination"?
The Nevada courts have allowed casinos to exclude card counters because technically they are private property, and under the ancient common law right a property owner could kick-off his property anyone for any reason, or even without a reason. Many players and lawyers believe that barring skillful players from playing blackjack is an unconstitutional form of discrimination. However, the Supreme Court prohibits discrimination only against persons who are members of "suspect classifications" based on race, creed, sex, national origin, age, or physical disability (i.e. card counters are not listed in the "suspect classifications"). Therefore, until a law is passed or blackjack players bring a challenge, casinos will continue the practice of barring card counters........
To read the full article go to: ""www.bjinsider.com""
Re: Excellent article on Card counting law!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Jan-2004 12:00:23 (#6441)
Love Henry's stuff. Check out my article in issue #43 if you have the time. Hope to be writing for Henry again soon. I will be writing for a bunch of new websites this coming February. Doesn't pay much, but pays me for putting finger to key and gets me "out there" like Kramer....OUTHERE! smile
My Opinion
Posted by SammyBoy on 30-Jan-2004 16:38:47 (#6451)
I would much prefer for casinos to kick out counters than to make the games unbeatable. I hate the casino practices as much as any other counter, and I believe casinos that backroom/mistreat counters should be punished by law. But the game would be over if they had to allow everyone to play and could not bar us. CSM's and 8 deck shoes cut in half are no fun.
Re: Excellent article on Card counting law!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Feb-2004 00:32:40 (#6471)
I don't know, barring counters reeks of a fraudulent practice to me. They advertise the game as one that you can win with skill, but if you have enough skill to win they won't let you play. Just think of an all-you-can-eat buffet that throws you out if you eat too much- better not call it all-you-can-eat then.
What's next? If BJ and basic strategy become too well-known, they will start throwing out good BS players. When a BS player is playing a decent and crowded game, he breaks even or maybe is slightly ahead with the comps, plus he keeps a bad player out of that seat.
Check out "Cellini's Corner"
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Jan-2004 22:07:38 (#6412)
Check out Cellini's Corner under the "New Items" -- you'll be glad you did.
Re: Check out "Cellini's Corner"
Posted by Ginger on 28-Jan-2004 00:10:01 (#6413)
Hot, hot, hot subject. Can we have a Q and A sesion with this man or todler? I 'll do the pay per veiew if needed. Please keep me informed,
Ginger
Re: Check out "Cellini's Corner"
Posted by Surveillance Enemy on 28-Jan-2004 00:15:08 (#6414)
Is this going to be a regular editition????? Count me in if so.
I'm so happy.......
Re: Check out "Cellini's Corner"
Posted by Sellinimychips on 28-Jan-2004 00:23:23 (#6415)
It's back! My favorite host. Now listen people, want the truth, in a sarcastic way but alwyas on the up and up? Here it is!
Thank you Mayor, you are a geniuss.
Re: Check out "Cellini's Corner"
Posted by Ginger on 28-Jan-2004 00:30:25 (#6416)
Is this for real? Is Cellini going to be here from now on? Count me in in!!
I have a request;
I would like to ask questions. Isd that possible? Just 5 questions pertaining to camo and playing conditions. Please.....
Re: Ginger
Posted by toddler on 29-Jan-2004 09:12:39 (#6437)
<FONT FACE="Tahoma">
Ginger,
If you have questions, then ask away. The BJ community is here to help one another. Not one persona may have all the answers. If you have questions for Cellini, post them here. He may respond.
Best,<FONT COLOR=#666699>
toddler
Excellent
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 28-Jan-2004 10:48:19 (#6421)
A great addition. Tod's was wise to store those docs. We lost a LOT of info when that Titanic went down. That's what happens when you get no warning. Look forward to working with Cellini again.
Rob
Re: Check out "Cellini's Corner"
Posted by Tom Doubting on 28-Jan-2004 11:08:00 (#6422)
Cellini gave a lot if info in his book but at a c-note a copy it was over priced and over hyped. His info page at Snyders site was interresting but weird at times. Like all thing take him with a grain of salt and always keep an eye on the pit boss. A lot of pro's have mixed feelings over his info and self hype.
Doubt what?
Posted by Tom on 28-Jan-2004 12:17:42 (#6423)
You could have thought of a better handle than me doubting. I guess if I changed my name to Darrin it wont be long before I see a Darrin Doubting,eh? You probably should use your own handle.
I dont what to cop an attitude around here by doubting Cellini,however I did read the first post about disguise, it was an interesting and funny story. Very ironic how Cellini suggest at the end of his rules to rathole chips though.
Maybe I'm doubting after all:)
Tom
Re: Doubt what?
Posted by Tom doubting on 28-Jan-2004 12:53:53 (#6424)
Since this is my first post here and I dont know who you are SO WHAT!
Doubting Thomas
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Jan-2004 11:54:59 (#6440)
Welome, even on the sour note. No one knows who you are either, but you do seem to know a lot about Celi, and the old BJF board. Everyone is allowed an opinion, and yours is well noted. I'll let you know what I think of the book shortly. Have you checked out the price of University books recently? Crazy ain't it? Or double lobstertails with fillet minon, buttered carrots, mashed tato's with a shrimp salad starter! Must be lunch time.
PS Know anything about all the other new "aliases with attitudes" showing up on a daily basis?
Re: Doubting Thomas
Posted by Tom Doubting on 29-Jan-2004 12:12:01 (#6442)
You are a very astute if not clever person. We are just testing the waters here to see if there is any life or sense to make about this site. So far there seems to be some intelligence here. Still $99 is stiff to pay for information that is literally all over every site dedicated to card counting. We will see how much knowledge will be shared with the residents of this community and how much tolerance will be shown when the mischief starts. On to better and profitable games of chance.
Re: Doubting Thomas
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Jan-2004 12:35:45 (#6443)
Nice to meet you, and best of posi EV and variance to you.
Rob
Re: Check out "Cellini's Corner"
Posted by Radar on 28-Jan-2004 18:42:18 (#6428)
Overpriced? Depends on your perspective...
I can see why a lot of pros would think differently, though...they KNOW what to look for from experience.
Cellini gave us Newbies some valuable info that saved us YEARS on experience...
I for one don't think it was overpriced...but money WELL-SPENT!
Re: Check out "Cellini's Corner"
Posted by Slowhand on 29-Jan-2004 09:21:04 (#6438)
I agree completely. Cellini's book provides a wealth of priceless information for those of us not privy to the world of the pro.
Thanks again DV!
Slowhand
Kudos to the Toddler for pressing for this.
Posted by Titaniumman on 28-Jan-2004 21:19:52 (#6436)
Nice Job! You, DV, Eliot, and this site have done a service for the community.
Wildcard, my associate, you, and I should get together for dinner in the near future. Same place as before sounds good to me.
Looks like Atlanta Police Chief Pendleton is going to use his experience with Bourbon Street to make Underground Atlanta an asset for entertainment in Hotlanta. Good for the city, but bad for pulling blackjack into our town.
-T-
Re: (OYO)-Man
Posted by toddler on 29-Jan-2004 09:24:11 (#6439)
<FONT FACE="Tahoma">
Tman - The same place sounds great, although Stoney River has much better steaks. It will be a haul for WC. Mid-Feb sounds good right now as I'm trying visit cotton fields and play between now and then. See you offline for details. Sorry about your recent (and continuing) burglary. As Royal Marshall says, "Just Damn!".
</font>
great addition to the site
Posted by John Lewis on 01-Feb-2004 11:19:20 (#6480)
Cellini's board is a great addition to the site. His comments are invariably interesting and entertaining, and, of course, very informative from his unique vantage point.
Thanks.
Barring Question
Posted by CanKen on 29-Jan-2004 19:17:06 (#6445)
I understand that casinos in LV can bar anyone because the casinos are considered private property.
Does anyone know the status of the Ontario charity casinos? Are they considered private property? Can they bar you, or back you off?
Since the BJ tables are all 8-deck with $100 max bet, do they even care if you count cards?
My BR allows me to spread 1-15 at low limit tables, but I'm hesitant to do it where I play regularly and the pit people know me by sight if not by name.
Thanks for any info.
CK
Re: Barring Question
Posted by Tom on 30-Jan-2004 05:20:29 (#6447)
I would think charity casinos are private property and can barr anyone,including ploppies. How's the conditions there? Do you see players getting hawked at constantly, or is there a loose atmosphere? Since a call for a max bet against and 8 deck shoe is an infrequent occurrance(according to my strategy) I often find myself making far too many minimum waiting bets of only 1-3 units with not even a look. The TC's slowly rise or drop,then finally after an hour or so I may have an opportunity to put out my max bet. It's an infrequent occurence that I must take advantage of. It's unlikely the pit's going to hassle with hawking, running back tapes,tracking,etc. and all this just because you're making infrequent $75 bets. Many times during busy hours, they may not even noticed(or care?)you just made a 15 unit bet.
If you really want to gaff em, move around!#@$%
Tom
Re: Barring Question
Posted by CanKen on 02-Feb-2004 15:50:06 (#6491)
Tom:
As you may know, Ontario has five small charity casinos, three large commercial casinos and Great Blue Heron casino which is also small and classed as a charity casino but is a hybrid in terms of ownership and operation. You can find out more at "www.olgc.ca".
My local casino is probably typical of the charity casinos, and conditions aren't great, but it's only five minutes away so I play 3 times a week for an hour or so for practice and entertainment. Over the last couple of years I've averaged about my BJRM expectation,which is a little better than minimum wage.
I doubt anyone can make much $$ playing 8 decks with a max bet of $100. Penetration depends a lot on the dealer, from 65-80%, but averaging about 75%, and the rules are the usual S17, DOA2, DAS to 4 hands.
The pit seems fairly loose, mostly friendly dealers and supervisors, although sometimes I feel I am being watched when I flat bet the min for a couple of shoes then half way through a shoe work up to 12 or 15 units or 2x10 units.
You're right; it takes patience to play 8 decks. Max bet counts aren't common, maybe 10% of hands played, and if you don't take full advantage of them you are wasting your time.
It's hard to move around in a small casino with busy tables. I just try to find one with low min so I can get a spread, good pen, fast dealer and auto-shuffler. Then I take a washroom or telephone lammer if the count goes below -1.
I still don't know what the policy is regarding suspected AP's in these places, or even if they have one, and if they do, what the legalities are. I'll keep trying to find out.
Hope this answers your questions.
CK
Re: Barring Question
Posted by Tom on 03-Feb-2004 20:45:33 (#6511)
I think you're worrying too much about legalities and policies,it's not like you're going to beat up and thrown in jail(unless you throw first punch!). If they dont like your action they'll probably just simply tell the dealer to start cutting back on pen or half-shoe you. Dont believe all the stories you here on the internet about card counters getting dragged and beat up all the way to the backroom with chains wraped around their neck. Most these guys are probably casino trolls,drunks,real cheaters,etc. Since this casino is usually busy you can mix in with the crowd more. A typical dealer or pit boss probably thinks of me as some kind of stupid ploppy that bets with the flow. If you ever truly feel you're being hawked simply cit back on bet spread a little and only raise your bet when you win and lower it a little when you lose. Typical ploppy fashion,..hee,hee.
Good luck
Tom
Re: Barring Question
Posted by CanKen on 03-Feb-2004 21:41:02 (#6513)
Yeh, you're right. I'll just try to look like a nice, conservative, old guy who gets bored and plunges once in a while towards the end of a shoe.
Re: Barring Question
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 30-Jan-2004 09:15:44 (#6448)
They are Gov't property run by the Ontario Lottery Gaming Commission. I have spread from $5 to $100 at Brantford and Scugog and they give you serious heat, but never been barred. Had the shoe cut in half, stuff like that, which makes me laugh because often times the cards I want to play into are not cut out of the game, which pisses them even more. I know of someone that got kicked out of Rama recently. These is a case in Montreal that was won by the player, but do not know of any cases in Ontario.
You play Niagara, Rama, Scugog or Brantford? Hope to catch up with you sometime and get those chips flying.
Rob
Re: Barring Question
Posted by Montreal guy on 30-Jan-2004 11:42:45 (#6449)
Montreal suck ! Really ! Quebec is a bad place to play BJ! 8D h17 DAS and with a bad penetration !
Re: Barring Question
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 31-Jan-2004 12:49:11 (#6463)
It is worse there than 8deckville Ontario is, we stand on all 17, DOA, DAS. You either learn new "tricks," fogetaboutit, or find your advantage elseware.
Re: Barring Question
Posted by CanKen on 06-Feb-2004 19:16:42 (#6563)
Hi Rob:
I'm a bit slow responding; hope you find this. I looked up some info at "olgc.com". Seems that all the casinos are owned by OLGC, but the three big ones are privately operated, whatever that means. Also, I understand that at Great Blue Heron, OLGC operates the slots part but the local First Nations people run the table games. Maybe that's why their BJ is a little different from the other charity casinos. I've only been there once, but my wife and I both liked it.
We get to Brantford and Niagara a couple times a year but won't for a while now because of some medical problems.
I'd like to meet you some time, but afraid I'm not in your class when it comes to skill, knowledge, experience etc.
Thanks for the response.
CK
Re: Barring Question
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 07-Feb-2004 08:58:21 (#6569)
Yes it would be a pleasure to meet you too. I don't let things get to my head about skill etc, so please don't feel that way. I'm just another card player to the guys on this side of the table. What I am to the other side of the table is another matter. ;> I live in Brampton now. You close??
Re: Barring Question
Posted by CanKen on 07-Feb-2004 13:22:36 (#6574)
Not close - Sarnia. As I mentioned above, we won't be travelling much for a while, maybe later in the year.
CK
Re: Barring Question
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 07-Feb-2004 20:53:40 (#6575)
With the price of gas and road conditions, I don't blame ya! I'd rather play on my PC. I do have my eye on a 2000 Cougar, black on black leather, loaded, coming off a lease. Those white letters across the back of it should stand out nicely. And the painting on the hood? My two favorite cards......and I don't mean Arnold S and DV Cellini. ;>
Re: Barring Question
Posted by 7 x 3 on 02-Feb-2004 19:53:22 (#6493)
Having been barred from Rama (we believe you are a skilled player), I say, be careful. I played the VIP Room for a long time. The night it happened I was only spreading black 1 to 4. Up a few thousand. Next trip tp Windsor - barred (management decision). Same thing at Niagra, so they do share info.
I complained to the Ontario Gov't. Response was "Casino's are entrusted to protect the assets of the Province..."
Windsor is the most paranoid.
'Charity' places don't seem to care. With all the horrible players playing the $100 max every hand, why would they?
charity in Kenora, Ontario was decent/./ *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 02-Feb-2004 21:33:28 (#6496)
Re: Barring Question
Posted by CanKen on 03-Feb-2004 21:35:03 (#6512)
Thanks for the info. I think you are right about the difference in attitude between the three big commercial casinos, which are privately operated, and the small charity casinos. At one of them a few weeks ago I saw a guy,(apparently he had requested a $50 min sign so he could play alone), flat betting the $100 max on all seven spots every round. With players like that, why would they worry about me?
Variation on SuperFun21 w/ question
Posted by BJQueen on 30-Jan-2004 14:35:00 (#6450)
Called "Single 21" @ Augustine Casino in Cochella, CA (in the desert).
>
>Rules:
>Double on any # of cards
>Surrender anytime (unless dealer has BJ)
>Split up to 4 hands
>Player BJ always wins
>Suited BJ pays 3 to 2
>Other BJ's pay even money
>Six card Charlie wins except vs BJ
>"Split after hitting. Whenever two same-value cards are touching, you can split the second one off and start a new hand. You can even split after doubling. You cannot spit to prevent busting."
>
>This is offered with a $10-$100 betting range.>
>An example of the last rule - you get an 8 and then a 3 and double. If the next card is a 3 you can split the 3's and take another hit on the double.
>
>
>
>I read your article on Super Fun 21 and was curious to know:
>I use a single level count with a side count of Aces. Converting to the 1/2 deck true count at regular BJ is equal to my advantage/disadvantage. How is this different at Super Fun 21 and the game above?
>I suspect basic strategy for that last rule would dictate using it unless your double down gives you 19 or better (or an 18 vs a dealer stiff). Is my guess right?
>
>
>Keep up the good work!!
>
>
>Thank you, BlackJackQueen
Re: Variation on SuperFun21 w/ question
Posted by phantom007 on 03-Feb-2004 03:17:51 (#6498)
"Single21" is also present in Tunica. Have seen it at Sheraton, and I have seen a post wherein it either is (or got moved to Bally's), also a PPE property.
I checked over at "wizardofodds.com"...so far, he has not computed a strategy for this game.
Until then, I agree, play it like SF21.
phantom007.
I Was Watching The Vegas Channel
Posted by SammyBoy on 30-Jan-2004 17:08:57 (#6453)
err, I mean Travel Channel the other night. I can't remember the name of the program, but they were interviewing an investigator from Griffin. The commentator just finished talking about the Griffin Agency and how their job is to keep track of casino cheats and criminals and assist casinos that pay for their services. I blurted out to my wife "Bullshit, they're after card counters." They then show one of these investigators in his car getting a live video feed from a casino. Sure enough the first words out of the investigators mouth while on the phone was "What kind of bet spread is he using?" It really pisses me off that they would imply that being a card counter makes you a criminal or cheat. They never came out and said the suspect was a card counter, and the average joe watching had no clue either, but still, it pissed me off.
Question about video poker
Posted by John on 31-Jan-2004 02:31:15 (#6454)
Hi. I know its a blackjack forum but I know everyone here gives it to me straight. My question is simple. Should I be playing it? I just got back from my trip. I made 50 units for the trip but I would have made 90 units if I didn't drop 200 in the video poker machines.
Some people say you can beat it and that is why I play.
The definitive answer ...
Posted by The Mayor on 31-Jan-2004 09:13:52 (#6458)
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#6455)
Re: Question about video poker
Posted by John on 31-Jan-2004 06:57:50 (#6456)
John, can I e-mail you? There is this video poker game that I want to e-mail you about. Also, if you are currently a video poker player, I would like to write to you about it. Or you can e-mail me at jjj93421@yahoo.com
An interesting blackjack game
Posted by John on 31-Jan-2004 07:04:12 (#6457)
Got back from my trip yesterday, and was in the positive again. Anyway, I saw a game that offered a side bet. Yeah most sidebets are bull but listen to this one.
a side bet that pays 5 to 1 for a blackjack.
Re: An interesting blackjack game
Posted by deZerTomB on 31-Jan-2004 21:43:06 (#6469)
here's the side bet I played;
First 2 cards equals 20; 4to1.
suited; 10to1.
matched; 25to1.
both queens of hearts; 200to1.
both queens of hearts with a dealer blackjack; 1000to1.
Double deck & you can make the bet anytime. Also 6 deck shoe.
Pen varies by dealer 50-75% on DD.
$5 table minimum. $1 minimum side bet.
I was making the side bet for $5 when the TC was over +5.
So any body know what the math is and what the correct play is here?
deZerTomB.
Re: An interesting blackjack game
Posted by deZerTomB on 04-Feb-2004 22:16:15 (#6535)
I found the answer at bjinsider.com.
Sweet game it turns out with nice player advantage. I couldn't believe it when they told me you could make that side bet anytime.
Re: An interesting blackjack game
Posted by John on 05-Feb-2004 03:57:34 (#6536)
Which game? The 5 to 1 bj or the one you were speaking of. I would like to know since most of the games around here suck.
Re: An interesting blackjack game
Posted by deZerTomB on 05-Feb-2004 18:39:40 (#6551)
I was referring to the "lucky ladies". Side bet for first 2 cards equals 20. DD and shoe for $5 min. at 4Q downtown LV. Get there early to beat the crowds. Make the side bet when the TC is over +4.5. Side count the queen of hearts. I was only betting $5, but they say $10 is the correct play. For more details see bjinsider.com.
deZerTomB
lv trip report
Posted by deZerTomB on 31-Jan-2004 11:50:03 (#6461)
here we go again;
cash=$1500
I only play DD.
day1
GN +$100 $10/minimum
4Q +$200 $25/min
day2
GN +$150 $10/min
Ven -$300 $25/min
Har -$600 $25/min (+) count, losing hands. back to red.
GN +$200 $10/min
4Q +$300 $5/min won 25to1 side bet for $5, 4to1 side bet for $5.
GN +$300 $10/min
4Q +$275 $5/min won 25to1 side bet again! say cheese!
day3
GN +$400 $10/min 2 new decks and I get to cut.
4Q -$200 $5/min what happened to pen? rose colored glasses now, hehe.
Back to the house.
I made a lot of great plays on my 12's, so the practice is paying off.
One guy even made a comment and said he wouldn't sit down because of the way I played a 12 hand, I pointed to my chips & said it looks like I know a little bit about what I'm doing.
Re: lv trip report
Posted by J1 on 31-Jan-2004 13:03:27 (#6464)
Pride cometh before a fall. Do not preach how smart you are because it can draw dealer and pit scrutiny. Just make a stupid comment like 'I play based on my Zodiac charts for the month, so you may have a different path in the stars'. Try to make it something the 'knowledge people' (dealers and pits?) can get a chuckle over and you disarm the situation, know you are thumbing your nose at the person who made the comment, and still deter them from cluttering-up 'your' table.
Most confrontational situations with other players and their entourages can be anticipated. Make a list of those situations you have seen, experienced, or heard about. Devise a non-confrontational response to each of them. Then, practice your responses to the situations and you will score an AP in situational resolutions when confronted with a situation.
Remember, casinos do not like trouble or trouble-makers, so let the other person play the role of the fool.
Re: lv trip report
Posted by deZerTomB on 31-Jan-2004 21:30:02 (#6468)
12's, depends on the dealers up card and the count of course. I am fairly new and don't know all the indexes like I should yet. But I am practicing everyday.
I made the comment, only loud enough for the dealer, the pc was doing paperwork and there absolutely no heat. The player at the opposite side was hiding a BS chart in his lap & the dealer finally told him to just put it on the table. The dealer was cool & kept letting me cut the cards. I put one bet out for the dealer in front of my $60 bet & got a blackjack, so he was happy. I asked the dealer if I made the right play on a hand I split & he said if I won then it was the right play. The other player was staring at thecards for long periods of time as the dealer was turning the cards over and making/taking payouts. Through all this the PC had his head buried in paperwork. I didn't get any heat anywhere in vegas. Just one evil eye, but then he lost interest pretty quick.
Besides I'm only a red player, when I try green I get my a$$ kicked.
I just wanted to share my good fortune with all. Hopefully it's not just all luck.
peace & positive counts
deZerTomB
"Letting me cut the cards"?
Posted by LVBear584 on 31-Jan-2004 22:37:54 (#6470)
The dealer was cool & kept letting me cut the cards
You mentioned that you're a new player and just learning your skills. So why do you care who cuts the cards?
Re: "Letting me cut the cards"?
Posted by deZerTomB on 01-Feb-2004 08:29:00 (#6476)
(You mentioned that you're a new player and just learning your skills. So why do you care who cuts the cards?)
I only play DD.
I've developed a system or method of cutting through trial & error. There is obviously a lot of variables, so it's not foolproof. It seems to work best with a dealer who does not radically alter his shuffle when he figures out or cares what I'm doing. Also needs to be the standard X shuffle in 1/2 decks that all the dealers seem to use. I suppose they teach this method in the dealer schools. Another thing is when the dealer plugs the remaining cards at the end into the discards, this should be consistently in the middle.
Thats without any flashing. I'm trying to get better at peeking. Those two go hand in hand. I'm particularly interested in the last main shuffle right before the dealer hands the cards over for the cut where said dealer uses a full deck in each hand and combines the two for the cards to be dealt. I like to sit at either end but particularly at the last hole where you also have the opportunity for the dealer's hole card. From either end, though you can usually pretty easy catch about 1/2 a deck flying by on that last shuffle.
I think it helps that DD is the most hated by all the dealers and that is because you almost need big hands to deal it correctly. So dealers with small hands have problems covering the cards. Peeking and flashing are really my next goal, still working on those. But I won't gain an advantage unless I try.
Also I was trying to predict the upcoming counts based on the cuts of the other players either being a good cut or bad cut bringing a positive or negative count and it's amazing that bad players make bad cuts. hehe, Anyway so I was peeking at every player's cut and making a mental note. I may start using this to wong out.
So my question to you is if you can influence the outcome, why don't you? And how else are you going to influence the outcome except by the cut? How you play your cards isn't going to do much good when all the good cards are buried beneath the shuffle card.
Re: lv trip report
Posted by DannyD on 31-Jan-2004 19:26:50 (#6465)
So, what do you do with your 12's?
Re: lv trip report
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Feb-2004 00:58:02 (#6473)
The 12 draws against 4 (TC<0), 5 (TC<-2) 6 (TC<-2 or -1) really freak out the table and I've gotten more heat for those plays than all others combined. Another one that upsets them is splitting 9's, which is surprising because it is basic strategy. But I still haven't figured out a good cover speech for the 12 draws.
Re: lv trip report
Posted by deZerTomB on 01-Feb-2004 08:36:49 (#6477)
when I hit on 12's against dealer stiffs, I try to hide my cards from the other players and the dealer in order to not catch any heat. On all other hands I show my cards to the dealer first in a quick motion, then if you do happen to bust, you can say, what was I thinking?
It's the worst when the dealer gives you heat, then lectures you, hehe.
deZerTomB
Re: lv trip report
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Feb-2004 16:48:38 (#6529)
The best thing to do is act like you are a new player. Smile alot and act like you are having fun. The Ploppies will talk bad about you, just don't worry about it.
Re: lv trip report
Posted by deZerTomB on 04-Feb-2004 22:01:53 (#6534)
I AM new player, at least compared to you all. With still a lot to learn.
If I'm winning, then I'm smiling & having fun. 8+)
I'm working on my BS ploppy act. Thanks for the input and push in the right direction.
deZerTomB
California playing conditions needed
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Feb-2004 13:15:08 (#6481)
In about a month, I'm going to be in California and driving from the Bay Area to San Diego along I-5. I'll have about 10 free hours in addition to the drive time, and I'd like to hit some casinos. I'd like to know which ones have the most playable games, and what the rules are. Thanks for the help.
Re: California playing conditions needed *LINK*
Posted by hinoon on 01-Feb-2004 16:24:43 (#6484)
California games seem to range from the happily playable to outright scams. I know that the Los Angeles area games are almost entirely to be avoided. There seems ot be a law of somesort that restricts casinos from standard rules.
Here's what I "know" about Los Angeles area casinos. It's by no means a complete perspective:
Some casinos aren't allowed to actually take a winning from the table games. Instead, they charge a flat fee per hand and the dealer rotates amongst the players. This means that you're winning other player's money...and there have been instances of team-play by hustlers (though more typically on majong) so, watch yourself. The casinos watch the play for cheaters, but since their take isn't effected by the teams...well, it's probably wise to avoid the games.
Many casinos advertise BLACKJACK!!!! on huge billboards with busty girls that distract you while you sit in traffic. (The Hustler Casino and The Bicycle, for instance). See the catch? of course not. But if you look very carfully, in TEENY letters above the B on BLACKJACK are the words "No Bust", meaning they play a game called "22" which is not Blackjack at all.
I've heard tell of good playing opportunities Both North and Souh of Los Angeles, but can't comment on them as I haven't played them. But be aware that not all CA casinos are operating under the same standards/regulations.
Cheers,
phantom link, subversive Fox advertisement?
Posted by hinoon on 01-Feb-2004 16:27:20 (#6485)
or maybe I need to clear my browser cache. Anyway, I don't know why that article is there. It's interesting, but not relevant to my reply.
Re: California playing conditions needed
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Feb-2004 19:59:18 (#6486)
Yeah, I stopped in at Bay 101 which is a big poker room that advertises blackjack, but it turned out to be the "no bust" variety. Suckers were lined up to play it too. How is Barona down in the San Diego area?
Re: California playing conditions needed
Posted by Sonny on 02-Feb-2004 00:25:43 (#6487)
Here's the scoop on the LA/Palm Springsarea: The Chumash Casino has a fairly playable game (H17 DAS NS), but better games exist at Fantasy Springs and Soboba. The Spa casino used to have a trackable shuffle, but that was quite a while ago. Many of the casinos that offer "standard" blackjack games (like Morongo) also charge a "commision" on each hand which makes them unplayable. Still other casinos (like Harah's) just don't offer anything remotely playable (8D H17 NS).
As far as the San Diego area, I don't know of any playable games. I made a run there about a year ago and could only find "no bust" blackjack everywhere.
I hope this helps.
-Sonny-
Re: California playing conditions needed
Posted by deZerTomB on 02-Feb-2004 06:06:40 (#6488)
Aqua Caliente in Rancho Mirage in Palm Springs area has a decent double deck game on ONE table for $25 minimum. When I scouted it, the pen looked fairly decent. Many, many shoe games. Pretty good buffet, hehe.
Trump29 in Coachella, Palm Springs area also has double deck for $10 minimum, but the pen is generally poor. Dealer places cut card, so it varies slightly. They closed the party pit. Also a few shoe games. You might find a $5 DD game there during off hours. In the off-season they always had a $5 and $10 double deck table. Dealers are generally new or bad since the good ones go to Aqua(from what they tell me). Table limits are $5-100 and $10-300. Dealer stands on soft 17, DAS, No surrender of course. Rules are pretty good. When you cash out for more than $500, cashier has to get ok, though(at least for me). They also try to hide the cards from you, some dealers won't even turn the cards over if some idiot busts and throws his hole cards in face down. FWIW.
deZerTomB.
Re: California playing conditions needed
Posted by Victoria on 02-Feb-2004 15:25:37 (#6490)
The Soboba Casino in San Jacinto is the only one I know of with S17, DAS, DA,LS, split to four, on their 6D game. Penetration is all over the place so pick your dealer. I have seen 50% (time to leave) to 80% in my only visit there. They have a DD game, S17 but double on 10, 11 only and no double after split. Penetration goes from 50-70% but they will switch dealers in the middle of a two decker and re shuffle. Do not remember if they had surrender on the DD. Very few tables and crowded, friendly staff but in the middle of nowhere.
My mistake...
Posted by Sonny on 03-Feb-2004 19:14:23 (#6510)
> Many of the casinos that offer "standard" blackjack games (like Morongo)
> also charge a "commision" on each hand which makes them unplayable.
I just saw a TV commercial lastnight that announces that Casino Morongo no longer takes collections at their table games. They also claim to offer special payouts for "bonus hands", but they don't say exactly what that means.
-Sonny-
2 types of casinos in CA
Posted by Cyrano on 02-Feb-2004 16:33:53 (#6492)
CA has a law that prevents its "card-rooms" from wagering directly against the players. This means that the establishments under CA's jurisdiction can't receive revenues from winning bets. Instead, they collect a fee for you to play. Usually, this is $1 for every $100 wagered. I don't know why, but to make things more interesting, they also decided to introduce a bastardized form of blackjack called "California No-bust 21" or "21st Century Blackjack"--perhaps to make the bankers feel a little more secure that the game is "uncheatable" and the effects of counting is minimized. Stay away from these, unless you have a huge bankroll (you can call CA's department of gaming to receive reports on all their table games and figure out a way to beat them, but they've hidden the reports well under massive layers of beaurocracy).
Indian casinos, being that each reservation is considered its own sovereign nation, are not under CA's jurisdiction, hence they usually offer the kind us counters are used to. If you want to play, these are your best chance for good games. As a side note, seeing that you are in fact in another nation, you can also be killed in the casino and the indians won't need to "extradite" the killer.
Re: 2 types of casinos in CA
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Feb-2004 21:22:07 (#6495)
"Indian casinos, being that each reservation is considered its own sovereign nation, are not under CA's jurisdiction, hence they usually offer the kind us counters are used to. If you want to play, these are your best chance for good games. As a side note, seeing that you are in fact in another nation, you can also be killed in the casino and the indians won't need to "extradite" the killer."
Thanks for the information about the Indian games. Think I'm headed for Barona from what I see so far. I played there a long time ago before I learned to count and all I remember is the Vegas quality buffet!
But I do want to correct the statement about laws on a reservation- the Indians sign away nearly all of their special privileges as Indians in order to get a casino, that's why they have to obey liquor laws. There are situations where Indians are not tried in United States courts but that only applies in certain circumstances when an Indian commits a crime against another Indian. A non-Indian who visits the Indian casino is perfectly safe, and I've seen the CT state police patrolling the parking lots in the Indian casinos in CT.
Re: 2 types of casinos in CA
Posted by Cyrano on 04-Feb-2004 05:50:22 (#6519)
Thanks for clarifying... learn something new everyday! ;-)
Re: 2 types of casinos in CA
Posted by J1 on 04-Feb-2004 10:14:13 (#6521)
For liability purposes, on casino and hotel properties at Foxwoods (CT), the management wants all arrests made by the State Police details they pay for, although the casino properties are patrolled by both the Tribal Police Department and the State Police (uniformed and plain-clothes). There are fewer problems with the local and state courts and fewer 'rights violations' claims, if State Police officers make the arrests.
Unlike NV police, however, the casino is not always right and the patron wrong with the CT State Police. The CT troopers only make arrests warrented by violations of the laws, not by violations of a policy that a casino always wins or always has the correct point-of-view.
The internal security team at Foxwoods (the 'green-jackets')are all 'miked', call-in situations, try to use non-physically threatening tactics to detain individuals to redress situations. If those tactics do not work, the 'green-jackets' call-in the situation and bird-dog the suspects until State Police or Tribal Police officers arrive to resolve the impass.
All-in-all, an intelligent way for the casino to provide security for itself and its patrons.
On double deck (and some 6 deck)
Posted by Tom McLean on 02-Feb-2004 11:17:45 (#6489)
Hi, this is my first post. I have been reading on this site for some time and have never seen this subject come up (I know most readers disdain side bets and I mostly do, too). It is about a side bet (no, not lucky ladies). I think it is exploitable, especially on dd. I use the hi-lo system.
'Match the Dealer' is used on both dd and 6 deck, but the payoffs are better on the dd. 4:1 for an unsuited match of either of your cards to the dealer up card. 9:1 for 2 unsuiteds. 19:1 for a suited match (13:1 on 6 deck) and 23:1 (18:1 on 6 deck) for an unsuited/suited match.
Rules, split up to 4 hands (including aces), doa, das, hit s17, no surrender, penetration varies on dd from 50-70% and on 6 deck is 75-80%. These are the typical rules where I can play.
Although, I hadn't played bj for 20 yrs, I began again 3 yrs ago in mini-card rooms where I live. I figured out on my own that if there is a high plus count (or low minus count which I know I shouldn't play) it should increase the likelihood of a match as there would be either more high or low cards left in the decks. This is when I consider playing it.
On a side note, does anyone know when the new version of 'Blackjack Attack' will be out? Thanks, in advance for any replies.
Match-the-Dealer Sidebet...
Posted by phantom007 on 04-Feb-2004 04:05:10 (#6518)
...I did a google search for this, and did find info. by Mike Shackleford, the Wizard of Odds. However, his odds were for rules somewhat different than what you posted. He showed:
DECKS UNSUITED SUITED HOUSE ADVANTAGE
..6D.............4:1...............9:1................3.06%
..8D.............3:1...............8:1................2.99%
I agree with your theory that this might actually be an Advantage play at strongly Pos. and Neg. Counts. My guess would be above +7-8 and below -9. Hopefully, some of the "math-folk" can give you better #'s. It looks like that one could even get serious with this, and keep some type of side count for the "neutral zone" (7,8,9) cards, i.e., to discover times when the decks remaining are deficient in BOTH big and little cards.
BJA#3 is due out in early March '04. rge21 is accepting "pre-orders" now if you are interested.
phantom007.
Re: Match-the-Dealer Sidebet...
Posted by Tom McLean on 09-Feb-2004 11:26:14 (#6606)
Thank you phantom007 for your trouble. I had seen those odds before from The Wizard, however they are for Spanish 21, I believe. Perhaps, it would be nearly the same for regular BJ or maybe better for positive counts due to more tens in the pack. Thanks again...
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