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February Podium
Posted by ZOD on 02-Feb-2004 20:59:18 (#6494)
Mayor,
Nice thoughts, those. In this era of marketing and hype, wouldn't it be nice if counters turned out to be just the draw that casinos need to revitalize their table games?
Imagine...a small, notoriously sweaty Vegas shop decides to try a new strategy to lure in some business. They add some double deck with decent penetration and good rules, start advertising the "best game in town" complete with testimonials by the Travel Channel "experts", and suddenly their tables are full with amateurs who think they can beat the game. This doesn't go unoticed by a large slot house (oops, I mean casino) and they, too, free up a little space for some decent blackjack and proclaim in their marquee that "the Mayor plays here!" Other casinos rapidly follow suit, signing on advantage players by the dozen. The fun and excitment of table games is super-hyped by the marketeers, interest in the machines wane and suddenly, a full-blown gambling renaissance has begun....
Yes. Nice thoughts, those. Unfortunately, every day I see the mystique of gambling being swallowed up by the ringing, whistling and clanking of more slots. I see casinos catering to stockholders rather than gamblers. I see this game getting tougher all the time.
But I'm not quite willing to let go of the nice thoughts, either. I mean, poker is being rejuvenated by the media. Why not blackjack? Where there's a will there's a way. Keep the nice thoughts Mayor. I'm right there with you.
Best...
ZOD
Re: February Podium
Posted by Tom on 03-Feb-2004 00:43:10 (#6497)
There's already good BJ games all over the country. These casinos would love to have travel channel advertise for them. Blackjack is the most popular table game in the world and growing by the minute and all over the USA for that matter. It is said that 54 million people( mostly ploppies you suppose?)played BJ in 2003. Casinos raked in billions by offering blackjack. Sure there's bad games,funny games, but there's also good ones. I remember the days when Americans use to have to travel THOUSANDS of miles to find a blackjack table. This is no longer true. Blackjack is everywhere.
These are the good old days my friend. I cant imagine seeing the day any casino would be stupid enough to get rid of table games. The reason why, is because they know they'll go broke while their neighboring casinos get rich,mmm I mean richer.
Tom
Re: February Podium
Posted by deZerTomB on 03-Feb-2004 08:39:02 (#6501)
poker is being rejuvenated by the media. Why not blackjack? Where there's a will there's a way.
Has anyone heard anything on the reality show to be filmed at GN downtown LV? At least that's what the suits told me they were setting up there. Maybe a blackjack tournament would play best, people could go all in, like poker for the dramatic moments.
Three card monty has to have a winner for losers to play, usually a shill. Therefore a place that tolerates a low stakes card counters is using him as shill for the house, to draw in losers. That's why they put all the decent odds games in the back or surrounded by a million slot machines. Competition is the key, places that do not have to compete for customers will offer an inferior product. Why? Because they can. The ads for single deck 21 are symbolic of the lure of a game that can be beat. Although it is simply a bait and switch in the end with 6-5 payout on blackjack should not diminish the fact. Savvy players turn around and leave, ploppies play on. Casinos need winners in order to have losers, if no one won, no one would play. That's why you see billboards with peoples faces and how much money they won(on a slot machine usually). So as more casinos face increased competition from the indian reservations and card rooms and racetracks, some will loosen their odds to increase revenue to maintain profits. They do this by offering a few beatable games and adjusting the slots& VP payouts hehe. It's called a loss leader. People come into the store to buy the one sale item and end up buying other stuff while they are there.
Re: February Podium
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-Feb-2004 13:35:29 (#6507)
We are the "bad boys" of casino gambling. The far too few that have a mind for getting an edge on "The Man." Once "The Man" hires you, you are getting what you were after in the first place: money. You can then hang your face in front of the camera and allow them to worship you, pay you, and slowly, you forget about your bad boy past. Your struggle up to the point where they HAD to notice you. Like a hacker that gets a job from the company he hacked as his sentence in life. He goes from eating Doritos by the bag to lobsters by the tail. A million analogies of pond life come to mind, a Darwinian look at the life of an advantage player. When did the fish's fins become legs? I too have struggled with my evolution, and have been called a shill, and worse. Without "advertising" myself, I think I have bridged the gap of working for "The Man," and keeping the dirt under my fingernails. It's not a 60/40 deal to me, it's 100x100. We all do it to the best of our ability, and get judged for it somehow. Life is tough. Being an AP is even tougher.
Bad boy bad boy, whatcha gonna do?
Tonight on Court TV "Taking Vegas"
Posted by John on 03-Feb-2004 10:01:15 (#6502)
Tonight at 10 pm on court tv is a show about the MIT students. It looked pretty good. It's called "Taking Vegas".
Re: Tonight on Court TV "Taking Vegas"
Posted by John on 03-Feb-2004 10:04:23 (#6503)
correction: It's on "The System" but its still about the MIT students.
Re: Tonight on Court TV "Taking Vegas"
Posted by revereman on 04-Feb-2004 08:37:34 (#6520)
Thanks for the heads up. I thought it was a great show. I felt like I was there. However, I can't imagine that they couldn't find better ways to carry/send all that money. Also, it seemed like they never lost (maybe they didn't). It's the best BJ show I've seen.
the best show I've ever seen on counting..WOW
Posted by eyesfor21 on 04-Feb-2004 10:16:54 (#6522)
HOLY cow *&(*&^&*^,wow they were lighting fast...
Dealer pays me and then wants it back
Posted by John on 03-Feb-2004 12:22:47 (#6504)
I had an incident recently where the dealer thought she busted and payed me and then rest of the table. Then when she reexamined her cards, she realized she had busted. I had already taken the win and stacked it with the rest of my chips. When she wanted it back, I asked her how she could just rewind time and know what my bet was. She said because "she remembered" what the bet was so I decided to finally give it back. If I was already paid, can the casino rightfully ask for it back?
Re: Dealer pays me and then wants it back
Posted by revereman on 03-Feb-2004 12:36:56 (#6505)
Yes, they can ask for(and get) it back. How did the other players (if any) react to her request? If necessary, they could have played the tape back to see what your bet was. Not that you will be identified as an AP (assuming you are one) by this one action, but remember that you want to blend in with the crowd, not stand out.
Re: Dealer pays me and then wants it back
Posted by wong out on 03-Feb-2004 21:43:16 (#6514)
They can ask for it back. I agree that if its a large mistake; boogey! This past weekend I had a hard 18 with 8 black ih the square vs a dealer's 5 up. The dealer flipped his 10 in the hole and spiked a 3 to push but paid me anyway. Sweet! I booked and cashed the chips later.
I have had at least 2 dealer mistakes that the dealer caught but wouldnt say anything. In each case the dealer figured it was better to risk a call rather than alert the pit critter and get reprimanded.
wong out
Re: Dealer pays me and then wants it back
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Feb-2004 13:08:35 (#6506)
Yes, they have a right to ask for the money back, and they can get it any time. You should gladly give them the money back if they ask (mild protest is ok) -- you don't want to be noticed and putting up a fuss will definitely get you noticed.
Always take advantage of dealer errors -- but if they catch their own error, then you must play fair and give it back.
--Mayor
If it is a big mistake, leave immediately
Posted by Coug Fan on 03-Feb-2004 17:21:17 (#6508)
Not really the case in your example, but a number of times, I have seen mistakes corrected much later. A friend of mine was playing at a new carney game that was prone to dealer mistakes and the floor asked for him to give back money 3 times in an hour. Each time was based on surveillance calls and was 5-10 minutes (and several hands) after the fact.
The worst case was when a player hit a side bet jackpot at the table next to mine. The relief PC paid him his $10,000 winnings (500:1 payoff on a $20 bet). The player continued to play and 45 minutes later the chief PC came on duty. Relief PC told chief PC about the win. Trouble was that the table had a sign saying that the max payout was limited to $5K. They threatened to call the cops if the guy didn't give back the extra $5K. My advice if you have a big error go your way is to get the h#%$ out of Dodge as soon as possible.
Re: If it is a big mistake, leave immediately
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Feb-2004 16:23:16 (#6527)
The real shitty thing about this is that most ploppies after a win like that will really start betting big money that they would not normally bet. After 45 minutes they could have lost half of that big win and now the casino is asking for the other half!
He should have at least gotten his tip back
Posted by Coug Fan on 04-Feb-2004 19:20:38 (#6532)
I think he tipped the dealer a couple hundred based on the erroneous $10K payout. If it was me, I would have demanded that the dealer return my tip since it was based on an incorrect win. Of course, I would have probably stiffed the dealer in the first place, which would be another reason for leaving immediately.
You are right that he started betting multiple black each hand, and had already given back a large portion of the $10K when they grabbed the extra $5K. Come to think of it, the casino could do this on purpose. "Erroneously" payout 4-5X the correct amount to induce the player to bet/tip big. Then "catch" the mistake once the player has lost/tipped the entire correct payout or starts to leave. I wouldn't put it past them.
Re: He should have at least gotten his tip back
Posted by SammyBoy on 05-Feb-2004 16:04:43 (#6547)
"I would have probably stiffed the dealer in the first place, which would be another reason for leaving immediately. "
I like the way you think! LOL!
Re: Dealer pays me and then wants it back
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-Feb-2004 22:43:43 (#6516)
I've had this happen a few times. Mayor is right, that protesting will draw attention, but still, if it were a lot of money I'd stuff the chips down my shorts and dare them to come get them.
A while back this happened to me: the dealer paid my push, picked up the cards, and started dealing the next round before she realized the error. I drew the line there; once you start the next round the last one is history. There was a nasty standoff and staredown between me and the PC for about 10 minutes, which I won, and I left. But this happened long before I was a counter.
Super Fun 21 Uston APC
Posted by xarush on 03-Feb-2004 18:28:58 (#6509)
I am returning to BJ after a long absence abroad. I play more for fun than to make a killing. I have been playing Superfun 21 with the wizardofodds basic strategy. I am used to playing the Uston APC.
Rather than learn a new one from scratch I have been trying to get back up to a usable speed on it.
Can anyone comment for me how useful it would be in Super Fun 21. Its ace neutral. What about play variations?
thanks
xarush
See the Guest Essays......
Posted by phantom007 on 04-Feb-2004 02:32:58 (#6517)
.....there is an Excellent one on SF21. It includes the play deviations you requested. Does not address UstonAPC directly, though I would suspect indicies listed for UBII likely similar.
phantom007.
DV Cellini
Posted by NWO2023 on 03-Feb-2004 22:16:35 (#6515)
Question does DV Cellini Post on this message board? I have read all of his work he is unbelievable, what a find.
NWO
Re: DV Cellini
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Feb-2004 11:50:31 (#6523)
I have many more posts to put up in "Cellini's Corner" -- I've been a bit too swamped to do so.
As far as Cellini posting here, I wouldn't count on it any time soon though he knows he has an open invitation here to post any time.
I have tremendous respect and admiration for Cellini, and hope he finds a way to have his voice heard. He is one of a kind.
--Mayor
February Poll
Posted by revereman on 04-Feb-2004 13:58:19 (#6524)
The numbers just don't make sense. If 219 votes have been cast, it doesn't seem reasonable that most categories have 30's-50's responses. Also, the percentages are off. For example if 47 out of 50 respondents are male, the % male should be 94%, not 47 out of 219. I realize some people will not answer all questions (for what reason I don't know) but all the numbers seem really low for 219 respondents.
Re: February Poll
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Feb-2004 15:41:24 (#6525)
Please consider your question again and look at the poll again, and try to figure out the answer on your own 8-) If you can't figure it out, I'll tell you, but then you might think you are not fully lit.
Re: February Poll
Posted by revereman on 04-Feb-2004 16:25:16 (#6528)
I'll admit to not being fully lit (even without knowing what that means), so go ahead and tell me.
Re: February Poll
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Feb-2004 17:13:59 (#6530)
Here are the results as I write.
1. Age 18-30 25 11%
2. Age 31-45 20 9%
3. Age 46+ 15 7%
4. Male 49 22%
5. Female 3 1%
6. Bankroll < 20K 38 17%
7. Bankroll > 20K 11 5%
8. Democrat 19 8%
9. Republican 16 7%
10. Good looking 31 14%
Au Contraire
Posted by revereman on 04-Feb-2004 19:13:03 (#6531)
Your explanation is obvious and I easily understand it. However, your results are totally erroneous. As you are an expert in computer science and math, those results, it seems to me you should have been able to program your computer to get meaningful results. Also as a math expert, you should have realizzed that the need for mutually exclusive subsets in the previous poll (yes, that was me). This sounds anatagonistic BUT I PROMISE IT IS NOT. I MEAN NO HARM AT ALL. However, I am stickler for detail (I believe the word anal--but not its relatives--well, sort of, sometimes) and accuracy. You can delete this thread if you want but I think my request does make sense.
Re: Au Contraire
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Feb-2004 09:58:09 (#6540)
>Your explanation is obvious and I easily understand it. However, your results are totally erroneous. As you are an expert in computer science and math, those results, it seems to me you should have been able to program your computer to get meaningful results.
I didn't write this software, I just use someone elses automatic polling tools freely available to any web host: www.bravenet.com
--Mayor
Re: Au Contraire
Posted by revereman on 05-Feb-2004 10:08:46 (#6541)
To pay you back for hosting this fine site, I will do a meaningful analysis for you at the end of the month. I do agree with your analysis of the "good looking" section of the poll.
The Numbers
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Feb-2004 10:37:23 (#6542)
don't lie. They also do not tell the truth. I love how my bosses converge on us and tell us what all our numbers mean. The interpretation of the numbers is what makes or breaks the concept of using them properly. I will never forget the day I told one boss I can make all the numbers disappear. The look was..........priceless. In the end it cost him two salaries instead of one, and cost the company many man hours of training by people who didn't know what they were doing to begin with. Three salaries if you count the one he WAS getting.
Re: February Poll
Posted by Feep on 05-Feb-2004 16:28:38 (#6548)
If 31 of the people lied, then how do we know that all respondents even selected an age? I know this is _LIKELY_ but cannot be assumed. Your poll is flawed. AAHHH!! Whatever shall we do?
Another OCD counter...
Feep
Re: February Poll
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Feb-2004 18:10:08 (#6550)
Thank you for seeing the humor in all of this.
Re: February Poll
Posted by revereman on 05-Feb-2004 20:32:00 (#6554)
I see the humor in all this too. However, since your other measurement (number of posts, not quality of posts) is an important yardstick, I'm looking to increase my number of posts. Oops, I did it again.
Re: February Poll
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Feb-2004 16:18:34 (#6526)
I didn't realize we had so many DemonCraps over here. :-)
Re: February Poll
Posted by proxl on 11-Feb-2004 13:20:14 (#6632)
Jeesh, an even number with the Cree-publicans. Imagine that.
I took a beating on the tables tonight.
Posted by John on 05-Feb-2004 04:19:35 (#6537)
man, my worst loss yet. I think I'm going to try to add some more indices to memory. I didn't even play any extremely negative counts. I was gone by the time it reached a -1 tc everytime and I was still losing. I started to think that they had added a few 5's to the shoe or something. I'm going to try to become a better player. Right now, I know about 15 indices so I have much room to improve. Also, I don't practice everyday on software of anything. I don't have casino verite so I may purchase that. Anyone else have casino verite? Also, any recommendations for a blackjack system analyzer for generating indices? I have heard that there are some discrepancies in indices from one analyzer to the next.
Re: I took a beating on the tables tonight.
Posted by Lone Stranger on 05-Feb-2004 07:58:44 (#6538)
Me too. Stadard dev is all it was though.
Casino Verite is excellent, I use it al the time.
Adding more indices has a deminishing return, Ill 18 should do it.
What count system are you using by the way ?
Re: I took a beating on the tables tonight.
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 05-Feb-2004 13:04:04 (#6545)
Get a blackjack simulator. It is the best investment into your game. I do recommend CVData by Qfit. A simulator will tell you if you are playing a winning game or not. Once you know that, you have the reassurance that any losses are simply due to standard deviation. You should learn the I18 indicies and a few others if you play SD or DD.
Re: I took a beating on the tables tonight.
Posted by John on 05-Feb-2004 15:08:40 (#6546)
I try to wong in as much as I can but that casino is very paranoid. (As I was walking out, I saw a guy that was kicked out for cussing!!) I was wonging out instead. I know the ILL 18. I'm going to take a break because I was developing a bad attitude. I am still up. Actually, I haven't done the math but I believe I am still way above where I should be. That is just the biggest loss I've ever had. After that loss, that casino should welcome me back with open arms.
I use Hi-Lo. The thing is, I just moved up to quarters and was playing the 25 dollar minimums.
I think I'm going to buy casino verite and add a very more indices, especially more of the soft double downs.
Okay, I'm standing there and backcounting, and I wonder what is going through the dealers mind because some of them will look at you and ask you if you want to play. I say "no thanks". If I wanted to play, I'd be playing. When I do finally enter, I put 5 greens on the circle, and he says "black action". Later in the night, I see a guy betting like 900 dollars on one hand and no black action was called. The pit boss sure was eyeing him and the table, though.
I am proud of myself because I can carry conversations and count at the same time and not even sweat it anymore. I sat down at the table and immediately the pit boss asks me if I want a card and blah blah blah and I say, "no, I'm hardly ever in the area." and at the same time the dealer is throwing the cards out as fast as she could but I still kept the count.
Re: I took a beating on the tables tonight.
Posted by Jim2 on 05-Feb-2004 16:30:40 (#6549)
I use CVBJ to practice all the time. I don't see how you can correct your playing errors and be assured that you are making the right plays without the drills.
I like the flashcard drills in CVBJ, they are a must in practicing the indices and are a truer test of your ability. Thinking you know it, and really knowing it are not the same thing...
Re: I took a beating on the tables tonight.
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-Feb-2004 20:18:36 (#6553)
OK, sounds to me like you are playing a good game, and playing the exact same kind of game that I do. And I took a beating last night also!
If you know 15 indices, you know more than enough, providing they are the right ones. Now here's a secret about the Ill18 and other series of indices: the most profitable indices for you are very dependent on your spread!
If/when you get the CVData software, here's what to do. Play two players against the house, one of them using Basic Strategy play and your spread, and the other using the High-Low indices and your spread. When you are done you will find the High-Low player is about 20-40% more profitable than the BS. That was the easy part. Now there is a screen in there someplace that gives the Win Rate for each type of hand, 12 against dealer 4, 16 against dealer 8, etc., and for every hand where there is an index, compare the Win Rate of the High-Low player against that of the BS player. Enter it all into an Excel file. This will take a couple of hours. You will find that there are no more than 10-15 indices that really make a difference, some of them have zero value and some of them even have negative value due to statistical quirks. But I cannot overemphasize that the indices you play have to be custom tailored for your spread and for the rules under which you are playing. If you have LSR the Surrender indices will be the most valuable.
Trip Report (or So this is how it is suppose to work!)
Posted by Mr Pill on 05-Feb-2004 11:15:20 (#6543)
To All,
Just finished a 7 day trip to L.V. and wanted to give a short trip report to post a positive return.
Played almost exclusivly single and double deck games in the downtown area. I made a few trips to the strip (before wife went home)to play some more double deck and also some of the best 6 deck shoe conditions I have ever played.(ls S17 das 5/6 pen.) The only other time that I have had a better 6 deck game was in upper MI were I could also double after split A's.
Total Playing time was 63hrs for a win rate of 2.75 units/hr. Ended trip with a win of about 174 units. Would have been better, but took a 40 unit beating the last 3 hours of play before I left. No single win was greater than 30 units.
I've got the best wife a BJ player could ask for. She really enjoys playing and is always looking forward to the next trip too (she hates slots). We flew out together for the weekend (along with 4 other guys). She then headed home late Sunday (kids in school) and I stayed for 5 additional days.
At my level of play I really did not get any serious scrutiny other that the Mayor's favorite place of play, LL (lol!). I believe you have been asked not to play there several times?
I use the Red 7 count, which I realize is not real strong against single deck play but I have always done pretty well with it. I think adding the additional 12 single deck indices in A. Snyders book has helped too.
I look forward to getting to the point when our kids are out of high school (couple years) and getting my wife more involved in counting too. We should be able to do very well as we spend more time at the tables and dedicate a larger bankroll to play.
Good Cards to All,
Pill
Re: Trip Report (or So this is how it is suppose to work!)
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Feb-2004 07:29:49 (#6556)
Hey Pill, nice report. You wife is a gift from above dude, and she's a LL too (wink)
BEST
LL?
Posted by phantom007 on 07-Feb-2004 01:26:42 (#6565)
Are you all talking about LL Downtown, the one next to G. Spike, the one that gets the best Monthly SCORE ratings, the LL that I will be staying at in 2 months??? If yes, is this a HOT place to play???
phantom007.
Re: LL?
Posted by Qdini on 07-Feb-2004 08:10:36 (#6568)
Hey...
I wanna know what LL is too..im going to vegas in like 3 weeks....i'm definitely stopping by whatever LL is..
P.S - what is G...
LL-Lady Luck, G-Gold *NM*
Posted by Hal Jordan on 07-Feb-2004 10:25:40 (#6572)
Re: LL?
Posted by MrPill on 07-Feb-2004 09:28:25 (#6570)
"Are you all talking about LL Downtown, the one next to G. Spike, the one that gets the best Monthly SCORE ratings, the LL that I will be staying at in 2 months??? If yes, is this a HOT place to play???"
Yes this is the one. When I played they were offering only one SD, one DD and a shoe.
The SD game is what I played and it was being dealt pretty good to the two of us at the table. I only played for about 1 hour with the last 40 minutes being closly watched by the Pit Lady. Being only a Red chip player slowly spreading from 1-4 I thought this was strange, but maybe she was bored for it was a slow week there.
Anyway, after the hour I left up 20 units and with so many other games available I avoided it for the last two days I had left to play.
Good luck on your trip. If you get a good dealer giving good penetration the DD at the Fitz. was pretty good for me. I was getting about 70% with one dealer each night I played there. If you use a balanced count and do a TC conversion also need to pay attention to the initial cut they put into the discard tray after the shuffle. (I use the unbalanced Red7 so this was not a factor to me other than determining penetration level.)
Pill
When?
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 08-Feb-2004 21:29:32 (#6597)
When is this game typically offered and when is the best time to play? My last time out I walked through the place quite a few times and only saw the single decker going once. The only table was full.
-Felix
Re: When?
Posted by Hal Jordan on 09-Feb-2004 09:23:09 (#6602)
This has been the same problem I have had on nearly every visit over the last year.
HJ
Re: When? *LINK*
Posted by Mr.Pill on 09-Feb-2004 11:21:41 (#6605)
I found the SD game at LL at 11AM. They had only one table and when I first saw it there was 4 players. In a couple of minutes it went down to two. This was my only trip through the LL that week.
Pill
Re: When?
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 09-Feb-2004 16:32:47 (#6608)
Yea,
I think it was late morning on a Sunday when I saw it. I suppose the sensible thing to do would be to call and ask.
thanks,
-Felix
New Cellini Essays!
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Feb-2004 18:42:55 (#6552)
I posted 9 additional essays by Cellini, bringing the total to 18.
Enjoy!
--Mayor
Re: New Cellini Essays!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Feb-2004 07:24:02 (#6555)
Are these essays from his book?
Re: New Cellini Essays!
Posted by No, but..... on 06-Feb-2004 08:50:52 (#6557)
I would strongly recommend that you read every essay AND buy the book. My average bet range is $50 - $1000, depending on conditions, and for me the cost of Cellini's book was one of the best BJ investments I ever made. Read it with a critical eye, but buy it and read it. I have no vested interest here, just a genuine respect for the work.
Good Luck,
Slowhand
Re: New Cellini Essays!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Feb-2004 09:54:15 (#6558)
I am reviewing the book right now. The info is worth the price. I have SO much more to say about this work. Once again, are the essays in the book? I have not read the essays yet. Sauntering on over to the essays.......
The essays are not in the book.......
Posted by Slowhand on 06-Feb-2004 10:00:58 (#6559)
I believe the essays were written and posted on BJF after the book was released. They were part of an ongoing dialogue in Cellini's Weekly Heat Report on that site.
Re: The essays are not in the book.......
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Feb-2004 10:05:32 (#6560)
Yes I remember seeing them over there. I enjoyed Celi's Rapture, but he got things a little mixed up. We had already left before the 7th seal and 6:5 came along. We're up here in cyberspace watching you right now....smile
"The eye in the sky keeps on turnin' "
Re: The essays are not in the book.......
Posted by Slowhand on 06-Feb-2004 10:10:16 (#6562)
Ah yes, the good ol' days.....
Vegas Trip soon...
Posted by Qdini on 07-Feb-2004 08:08:27 (#6567)
Hi,
I'll be going to vegas with a bunch of friends near end of February 04 (this month) to celebrate a birthday. Wondering whats the best place for single/double deck blackjack. Thanks in advance for the recommendations!
~ Qdini
SD-Downtown, DD-What is your BR? (NM) *NM*
Posted by Hal Jordan on 07-Feb-2004 10:22:50 (#6571)
Re: SD-Downtown, DD-What is your BR? (NM)
Posted by Qdini on 08-Feb-2004 19:07:43 (#6594)
Hey, I don't know all these codes....whats SD downtown...what's DD...what's BR...and last but not least whats NM...Thanks for clarification in advance!
Re: SD-Downtown, DD-What is your BR? (NM)
Posted by Hal Jordan on 09-Feb-2004 09:21:32 (#6601)
SD-Single Deck
DD-Double Deck
BR-Bank Roll
NM-No Message
Re: Vegas Trip soon...
Posted by Roy on 14-Feb-2004 12:34:07 (#6651)
Just returned from DTLV. Here's my thoughts:
LVC single deck is decent.
4Q's single deck if you can get it, DD is ok on the chop.
EC single deck is good, but wear a gas mask in there.
GG single deck is ok if you get two deals. Stay away from the one deal single deck.
The Western has single deck, but pack heat if you walk there.
GN has double deck with a chop.
Re: Vegas Trip soon...
Posted by Qdini on 15-Feb-2004 05:49:18 (#6654)
You guys gotta stop posting ur responses in code cuz i dont understnad them...whats LVC roy? 4Q I'm guessing is 4 queens....what do you mean by a "chop"
Regards,
Need to Study
Posted by Hal Jordan on 15-Feb-2004 09:50:57 (#6655)
I suggest you spend more time studying before you play Blackjack. This game takes months, if not years, of study before one should even consider playing. You need to read and practice. Read everything you can get your hands on. If you have the discipline to read, practice, and save money, then you should start to think about playing.
HJ
Re: Need to Study
Posted by Qdini on 17-Feb-2004 06:57:55 (#6683)
Thanks for your concern Hal...yes I have been studying it for quite a bit and I'm ready....I tillneed to know what "chop" is and what the other code means..
I'm leaving for vegas in 1 week...
TRANSLATION
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 17-Feb-2004 14:36:50 (#6688)
"Just returned from DTLV. Here's my thoughts:"
Down Town Las Vegas, as opposed to the "Strip".
"LVC single deck is decent."
Las Vegas Club. decent = fair, not bad game.
"4Q's single deck if you can get it, DD is ok on the chop."
Four Queens. chop = where the dealer places the cut card, the cut or chop.
"EC single deck is good, but wear a gas mask in there."
El Cortez. wear a gas mask = lots of smokers and the place has low ceilings.
"GG single deck is ok if you get two deals. Stay away from the one deal single deck."
Golden Gate. two deals = 2 rounds dealt before a shuffle (and I wouldn't call that okay, I'd stay away from both).
"The Western has single deck, but pack heat if you walk there."
Western Hotel and Casino, with the deepest dealt single deck in Las Vegas. pack heat = carry a gun, an exageration, the customers look worse than they actually are for the most part.
"GN has double deck with a chop."
Golden Nugget. No DAS game, you can do better elsewhere.
my first vegas blackjack trip
Posted by ted turner on 08-Feb-2004 08:51:26 (#6576)
Thought all you blackjack-heads might be interested in my first vegas blackjack trip. Be it known that previously I have been something of a slot machine junkey, or 'grind' as they are called. I have finally learned my lessonn on slots, so here's the trip.
My buddy has been trying to get me to play blackjack and give up slots. He and his wife go to Vegas at least once per year. He's a crap-head, but that's another story (he always wins, but ends up losing. First day we were there he was up $5,000 but lost it all, AND MORE, by the time we left Vegas 9 days later).
I never played blackjack, but knowing I was going with them this year (end of January-early Feb 2004), for six weeks I studied basic strategy and played thousands and thousands of hands with myself while watching television.
We stayed downtown for 6 days, the stayed at Palace Station for 3 days. We drove from Wisconsin, and spent a couple nights at casinos on the way to/from Vegas. First day in Vegas: stupid me. Living near Indian casinos that don't have to report statistics to the gaming board, I was excited to play slot machines with a better chance of winning (average 94% return downtown). Didn't make a difference. First day I lost $700 in slots at multiple casinos downtown and didn't get anything worth mentioning. Even in an Indian casino I probably would have got at least a $300 jackpot with that amount 'invested'. Then I played blackjack all night and into the next morning, using basic strategy, and won $700 total. I was amazed.
I didn't think I could win at blackjack, as it seems you win a hand, lost a hand, etc, and it evens out. Not exactly, as I found out. I got decent cards, and that's what it's all about. Second day: Still stupid, I played about $400 into slots in various downtown casinos and got nothing. I played blackjack all night again, and won $650, so by now I was a bit ahead for the trip. Again, I had got good cards, with many 20's as my two hole cards.
The next couple days I still played some slots, but didn't put nearly as much into them, but still got nothing. Blackjack seemed to even out a bit, with some exceptions. I would win $100 at a table or two, and lose a hundred. I learned better money management for my next trip. If I start out with a hundred, I'll only lost $50 before I leave a table.
I learned that luck is a strange mistress and really exists. If a table is bad, it seems to stay bad, so why should I stay? That's why I like downtown Vegas: there's so many casinos and so many tables I can move around until (hopefully) I find a 'good' table. It happens.
Ok, here is where I bend over and all of you blackjack-heads can give me a good kick. Believe me, I've done it to myself every day since it happened. About the fourth day, I played single deck, just me and the dealer, and I had the most fantastic cards I'll probably ever have. Some decks (shuffles?) I wouldn't lose a single hand. Over the course of at least 6 decks, I only lost a few hands. My hole cards were almost always 17-21. That is, I wasn't always in the situation of drawing cards. The dealer was busting when she was supposed to, and when I doubled, I got a good card. At one point I was up $400 on the table, but the cards went cold for me, and by the time I realized this and quit the table, I was only up $260. Here's why I kick myself: my biggest bet was $20.
Even without card counting, and even without progression betting (which I don't do) even a dummy like me should have recognized that I was on a good streak and at least bet $50. I should have walked away from that table with $1500 or more. That game was the beginning of the end of my luck for the trip. I had one more decent session the next day, but lost, and here's how. I plunked down my hundred, and got up a hundred. By the time I realized the cards had gone bad, I lost the hundred I won and lost my original hundred.
It was then I hatched my money management scheme, but it was too late. Now, when I get ahead a hundred, I set aside my original hundred and half my winnings and DO NOT go into those winnings, ensuring that I always leave a winner (if I won at the table). There's plenty of tables. No reason to stay at a cold table. The rest of the trip was absolutely miserable. I couldn't win a game of blackjack if my life depended on it, and it didn't matter which casino or which table I tried, even on the trip back from Vegas. I was always getting 12-16 hands and rotten double-down cards.
I realize that luck is very strange, and regardless of your 'system' or strategy, you have to get good cards, and you have to recognize when you are getting good cards, and bet accordingly and get off a table when you are ahead and start seeing it go downhill. My buddy has played a LOT of blackjack, and he's a progression better. He always increases his bet after a win, and goes down to minimum after a loss. The good thing about that is you never miss your lucky streaks as I did. I always bet too conservatively. However, with his system, he loses money a lot faster.
I don't think progression betting works. What I think really does work (besides counting) is to watch the 'leading indicators' and bet more when they are in your favor, and bet less (or leave a table) when not in your favor. Even as a beginner, here's what I think those indicators are:
1) if your hole cards are mostly 17-21, consistently, bet bigger as you are on a streak
2) if your hole cards are consistently 12-16, as they were on the last 5 days of my trip no matter where I played, you simply cannot win. Advice: don't play 3) If the dealer consistently draws multiple cards and beats you, particularly drawing 21, this is an indication that you are on a bad streak. Quit the table.
I was on one table during that terrible streak where the dealer drew 21 FOUR out of 6 tries. I left the table
4) If you consistently get a good card on a double-down, you are on a good streak and bet accordingly. If you consistently get small cards on your doubles, you can't win. Leave the table.
It's amazing how consistently during that last five days of the trip, the indicators listed above were against me. Anyhow, thought you'd be interested...One final thought. On days when you can't seem to win anywhere, just quit for the day, watch a movie, but don't play slots. Sometimes there seems to be a bad 'karma' around and when you are losing, you will continue to lose, so don't throw good money after bad. Quit for the day. I learned never to touch a slot as they are poison. If I hadn't played slots, even with my bad blackjack days, I would have come out ahead on my first blackjack trip.
There's something about luck.
Re: my first vegas blackjack trip
Posted by The Mayor on 08-Feb-2004 10:43:46 (#6579)
>I learned that luck is a strange mistress and really exists.
I have bad news. You are seriously misguided about blackjack and gambling in general. You will lose a lot of money in your lifetime if you continue to believe falsehoods.
>What I think really does work (besides counting) is to watch the 'leading indicators' and bet more when they are in your favor, and bet less (or leave a table) when not in your favor.
This is so wrong, I don't even want to begin to explain why.
You are not at a website that caters to vodoo or pseudo-science. This board is about beating the game by methods that work, and are proven to work (proven mathematically, in computer simulations, and in actual casino play). It is about advantage play.
If you want support for your ideas, go visit www.johnpatrick.com. If you care about making some money at these games, it's time to hit the books and read what this site has to offer. I suggest you start by reading the mythological moments (Blackjack Mythology) available on the left hand panel.
You will not get support for your wrong ideas here. Sorry. This may sound harsh. I am very glad you posted, so you got this feedback.
But, one thing in your favor -- at least you are playing blackjack and not so much the slots.
--Mayor
Re: my first vegas blackjack trip
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Feb-2004 12:14:16 (#6583)
Ted:>I learned that luck is a strange mistress and really exists.
Mayor:I have bad news. You are seriously misguided about blackjack and gambling in general. You will lose a lot of money in your lifetime if you continue to believe falsehoods.
You're both right. Luck is real, a manifestation of the number of trials being less than infinity. When I run my card counting simulations, I might play a billion hands. Occasionally there will be a batch of a million that is a big loser. If I actually played those million hands at the table, I would be bankrupted and live my entire life in poverty, and I'd never get a chance to play another million because I would be dead by then, no time. And the computer is playing the counting game perfectly, no mistakes. This is the harsh reality of card counting; the long term is very, very long and we can only hope that the million hands we get are the good ones and not the bad ones. That's the only place where luck comes in. Nonetheless, the odds are always in our favor.
On the other hand Ted you need to learn to count if you want to have consistent winning sessions at the casino. There are only two ways to beat blackjack, cheating and counting, I wouldn't recommend the first but the second will greatly increase your appreciation and profit at the game, and maybe life in general. Once you learn to count you will have lose all interest in slot machines and other sucker bets. The bj21.com site is as good as an online tutorial you will find and contains everything you need to begin a winning game and a winning career at blackjack if you so desire. Check it out, and you can begin manufacturing your own luck.
Re: my first vegas blackjack trip
Posted by ted turner on 08-Feb-2004 15:01:10 (#6588)
Thankyou for the cogent response. Luck truly exists, whether voodoo or not. The first few days of the first vegas trip, I definately had better cards than the last 5 days, which were abominable cards. However, I agree with everything else said by the responders, and I don't bet on hunches. Yes, I plan on learning counting, but I'm still going to keep a wary eye on the luck of the cards, and if it's too bad on a given day, I'll do something else, but NOT slots! Thank you
Start Reading
Posted by Hal Jordan on 08-Feb-2004 16:26:38 (#6590)
First off, I would suggest that you find a different hobby if you believe that luck is going to play a factor. The table, nor the decks, has any memory.
If you choose to pursue the endevour of playing blackjack, then it is time to start reading. Here are a few books that I would suggest to you:
Professional Blackjack
Blackjack Wisdom
Blackjack For Blood
Million Dollar Blackjack
Burning the Tables in Las Vegas
Blackjack Attack
HJ
luck=varience
Posted by Victoria on 08-Feb-2004 16:40:08 (#6591)
As someone explained before you could have a million hand segment of losses even being a proficient counter playing a good game. We have all witnessed players who had no clue at the tables but just kept winning hand after hand. This is all varience! As a slot player you should know that in the long run you will loose playing slots even if today every machine you put a coin into hits. As a basic strategy blackjack player it is the same, though the house takes a smaller percentage.
Counting and understanding your bet spread based upon the count combined with proper indices for the current count will over the long run result in your being a winner only because the math says so. Varience will still happen and you can call it anything you want, even luck but in reality the only real question is, are you playing a winning game or not?
Finally, you have absolutely no way of knowing when the hot table will turn or the same for the so called cold table. The cards have no clue as to whose hand they will land up in.
Victoria
Learn to cull out the Voodoo.
Posted by Titaniumman on 08-Feb-2004 11:59:10 (#6581)
Jane Fonda aside, you seem to be an intelligent chap. You write well, too.
As Eliot pointed out, you have some serious mis-conceptions, but they are the common ones to a novice to the game. It also appears that you have the ability and desire to put some effort into learning how to win.
In addition to Eliot's advice (Stay away from the John Patrick site, but you'll figure that out.), check out the free blackjack school on bj21.com. Get yourself some books, which are also available on that site. You cannot go wrong with books by authors Arnold Snyder, Stanford Wong, Peter Griffin, and Don Schlesinger.
You appear to have potential.
Re: Learn to cull out the Voodoo.
Posted by The Mayor on 08-Feb-2004 12:02:42 (#6582)
For some reason I did not know how to make my words come out supportive, but I meant them to be. I echo everything you said, including (especially) your supportive tone.
--Mayor
Re: Learn to cull out the Voodoo.
Posted by ted turner on 08-Feb-2004 13:15:37 (#6585)
Tone was disregarded; being a computer professional, I deal with somewhat harsh tones quite often from the business people. I separate wheat from chaff, and know the intention was positive and meant to be helpful. Will study...I'm trainable...
Re: Learn to cull out the Voodoo.
Posted by ted turner on 08-Feb-2004 13:11:59 (#6584)
Criticisms seem valid and I will certainly consider them, as you folks have a lot more experience than I. I will study...Thank you.
Re: Learn to cull out the Voodoo.
Posted by revereman on 08-Feb-2004 19:21:34 (#6595)
Since you partially reneged on your $1 billion philanthropic gesture, you should have a pretty good bankroll, which is another part of being a successful BJ player.
Re: Learn to cull out the Voodoo.
Posted by ted turner on 10-Feb-2004 20:27:38 (#6620)
I'm the REAL ted turner; the one without money.
Voodoo Chil
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Feb-2004 22:25:01 (#6598)
A receptive student is far better than an average teacher Ted. I think we make our own luck, first by picking the right game, then by studying it until we know we could get an honours mark if there was a test, and then by applying what we have learned in practice. In this way we make what is potential actual. The world is not a fair place, and sometimes that can work in your favor, or against you, but know this: you must get out of bed, keep the faith, and press on. That is what a blackjack player does, thru thick and thin. Goes to the table, keeps the faith in the math, and presses on towards the prize. Only then can you look death and luck in the face..........and laugh.
"I stand right next to a mountain
And chop it down with the edge of my hand.....
Re: my first vegas blackjack trip *LINK*
Posted by Mr.Pill on 09-Feb-2004 11:57:39 (#6607)
Ted,
Glad to see you made it back home safely and overall ahead. I'm the guy that you met at the table the one night and we had conversation over the Cokes at McD's.
It looks like alot of what I told you has been repeated above and that hopefully you will "see the light" about progressions and other "indicators" that point out a good game. It is all hogwash and you only realize a "run of good cards" after they happen and there is not much you can do to change this.
I gave you the basis of what cardcounting is all about and why it is suppose to work in the "long run". You will still loose more hands than you win but hopefully you will be betting more during those winning hands.
The book I told you about by Arnold Snyder (which is out of print) is at the link below (most of it) and it does contain the Red 7 count and also the strategy tables I gave you. This is in my opinion, an excellent starting count for someone so inclined. For someone that has a lot of 6 deck shoes in thier area, which I believe you do, this would be an ideal first count. The Mayor also has a lot of excellent books listed on his site also.
I'm planning another trip in a few months and who knows maybe we will play together again.
Take care and start reading,
Pill
Blackjack Computer Simulators
Posted by ted turner on 08-Feb-2004 09:04:25 (#6577)
What are the best blackjack computer simulators and where do I get them?
Re: Blackjack Computer Simulators
Posted by The Mayor on 08-Feb-2004 11:33:17 (#6580)
For a beginner, there is only one piece of software to recommend: Casino Verite by QFIT -- www.qfit.com -- you want CVBJ.
There are places you can get a deal for this software, you might check out www.advantageplayer.com to see if they have any specials going on right now. You can also write a question to the author of this software directly from that site.
--Mayor
SBA is really good! *NM*
Posted by blackjack student on 08-Feb-2004 16:22:53 (#6589)
Re: SBA is really good!
Posted by ted turner on 10-Feb-2004 20:31:13 (#6621)
You are a person of few words. What is SBA and where can I get it?
Re: SBA is really good!
Posted by Count Luckula on 11-Feb-2004 08:39:26 (#6626)
Statistical BlackJack Analyzer by Karel Janecek. It's good for running sims on different game conditions, bet spreads etc. It's also useful for calculating indices. Check sba21.com.
Re: Blackjack Computer Simulators
Posted by Sonny on 09-Feb-2004 11:00:19 (#6603)
I bought Blackjack 678, but the version I got always crashes when I simulate with an ace side count. Needless to say it has not been much use so far. I am told that a fix is in progress.
-Sonny-
cheating dealers
Posted by ted turner on 08-Feb-2004 13:21:28 (#6586)
I read a long, interesting, entertaining story somewhere on this site (2 counters on a vegas trip, downtown; you probably know the story). The story mentioned that there's a lot of dealers who cheat. Is this true? Are there a lot of dealers who cheat? If this is true, how can you guard against this?
Re: cheating dealers
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-Feb-2004 11:00:24 (#6604)
There are not a lot of dealers who cheat, but they do exist. There is a scam where they overpay their friends/partners in crime, and in return cheat other players to make their numbers look good. You'll only see it in handheld games. If you see it, run like hell, because management may be involved and being someone may be headed for serious legal trouble, something unfortunate could happen to someone who complains. But this is very rare, and you will probably never see a cheating dealer.
Re: cheating dealers
Posted by Sonny on 09-Feb-2004 21:57:52 (#6610)
> I read a long, interesting, entertaining story somewhere on this site (2
> counters on a vegas trip, downtown; you probably know the story). The story
> mentioned that there's a lot of dealers who cheat. Is this true?
Probably all of them CAN, but they WON'T. Even if they were trying to get fired they wouldn't risk their future careers. As long as you stick to reputable casinos you will be safe. If you come to my house, that's another story ;)
> Are there a lot of dealers who cheat? If this is true, how can you guard
> against this?
You can study the moves and teach yourself to do them. This will give you an idea of what the moves look like and how to spot them. Unfortunately, the fact is that you will not be able to catch a dealer cheating you. If they are any good at all you will not see the move being done. However, if you know what to look for you will know when to be suspicious. Educated suspicion is your only defense against a cheating dealer. By the time you spot the move being done (if you ever do!) you will have missed it hundreds of times already. You will never be sure, but you should play it safe at the first sight of suspicion.
I feel safe anywhere in Vegas and Henderson, but if you play elsewhere in Nevada or in "home games" you should keep you guard up. I've also heard of crooked charity games (second hand accounts).
-Sonny-
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#6592)
Re: Some thoughts on variance
Posted by The Mayor on 08-Feb-2004 17:58:01 (#6593)
It is a very weak professional gambler who plays his life at such a small edge and with such a high variance.
--Mayor
dealer errors
Posted by wong out on 08-Feb-2004 20:07:44 (#6596)
I was hitting my fav venue this weekend and had a couple of nice dealer errors in my favor:
I bet $130 and pulled a snapper (hate it when snappers come out on the low bets); anyhow the dealer got confused and paid me 200 instead of 195;
The second was a surrender of a 150 bet and the dealer returned 87.50 instead of 75.
Anyhow the two together added an additional 17.50 to the br. Not much but hey its free!
wong out
Re: dealer errors
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 08-Feb-2004 22:47:11 (#6599)
Teriffic!
The other week I had 3 mispays at the same table.
1 paid push
1 pushed loss
1 paid loss- this was a 16 on a dealer 18. I think he saw my 6 as a 9
All different kinds of mistakes, interesting.
I was at a table with some incredibly difficult people[understatement]. One of them lost the remainder of his stack and started yelling at the dealer because he was "dealing too fast".
After the player left, the dealer asked me if I thought he was dealing too fast. I reassured him and said he was doing fine and that some people just don't like to loose. He seemed like a pretty insecure guy, and everyone else was bitching at him whether they won or lost. The next hand was the paid push.
After a while he told me he thought he was about to be fired. Hmmmmmmmmmmm!!??
-Felix
Sloppy Dealers
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 09-Feb-2004 20:00:47 (#6609)
Had a dealer blow right by my 13 the other day and flip his hole card up to show a 20. I immdiately screamed "Hey, I wanted a hit". He turned the hole card back down and hit my hand with a 5. He looked shocked when I asked for another card and pulled the 3 for a cozy 21 and the win.. Sweet!!
Re: dealer errors
Posted by SammyBoy on 10-Feb-2004 11:36:37 (#6616)
I had a dealer pay a losing hand this weekend. I immediately pulled it down. After she payed the 2 other players she realized her mistake and took their money as they had left it in the circle. She said under her breath that she shouldn't have paid me. I acted like I didn't hear her and she continued to deal the next hand. I left a few hands after that. It was a $20 bet so it was a $40 swing to the good. I felt a little guilty about it, but only for a few seconds. :-)
correcting dealer errors...
Posted by gehrig on 10-Feb-2004 12:47:33 (#6617)
it be a double (or triple) edged weapon. if the dealer corrects their error in the same round, when the hands are not as yet picked up, no harm/no foul. if the misspay requires, based on that house's mic's, the intervention of the pitstiff, the dealer may be subsequently penalized in some fashion. if surveillance notices the error, they may "write up" the "incident".
i do whatever seems to generate the least attention to the table. a surveillance agent might initially suspect a dealer/agent scam and would automatically hawk that game (and, my play).
occasionally a misspay is noted by other players, some of whom seek eye contact with other seated players. this is a sign of weak play. at worst, i feign ignorance of an incorrect settlement. obviously if i'm on the short end, i'll simply, casually point to the yet exposed hand.
unless the house's game/that table, has redeeming/offsetting value, i'll avoid dealers who err more than the "expected" standard, one per hour. offsetting values would include sloppy shuffles, erratic penetration, poor down card bury, et cetera.
Re: correcting dealer errors...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Feb-2004 22:09:28 (#6622)
Yes I walked away from a sloppy dealer last trip. We all like fast dealers, but this one was trying so hard to be fast she was throwing cards all over the table. Even put one on the floor. Sometimes sloppiness gives us an opportunity to take advantage of a dealer error but ultimately it can slow down the game and bring PC attention to the table so I keep away from it.
Re: dealer errors
Posted by Jim2 on 29-Feb-2004 15:38:10 (#6905)
I had 4 dealer errors in my last session, this was way above expectation. The dealer hit a 5 card 21 and paid off the table as if he busted. The table was very cool and no one said anything. I was amazed that no one commented.
He later commented that he didn't know why everyone was laughing. I said we were just happy to be winning.
I was paid on a 4 card 14 when the dealer hit his 12 to make a 19.($50 BET)
and the most inexplicable was a pay off on a stiff 17(2 card) againgst a dealer 20(2 card). Whoa! What was he thinking. The four errors netted me $105 in 45 min.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#6600)
Re: Some thoughts on variance
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Feb-2004 20:12:51 (#6635)
or when you are dealing with money. It is if you are dealing with life and death.
Henry Tamburin
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Feb-2004 07:32:16 (#6611)
Please tell me about your new $700 Speed Count System........
http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/gtb_disc.asp
Risk averse strategies.
Posted by Brick on 10-Feb-2004 07:36:16 (#6612)
Hello gang, looks like a good BJ website for card counters. Let me introduce myself. I've been working the casinos(as a card counter:)since 1992 and have become successful at beating them. It actually took me 3 years(1992-95)of exculsive card counting at casinos to build up the confidence and assurance I needed before being convinced that I can indeed beat the casinos at their own game. My overall lifetime edge is very small,slightly less than 1%, but I still prevail to this day.
I've recently taken an interest in possibly using risk averse strategies. There seems to be little and conflicting information as well as differences in opinions from the past and present that makes one wonder if RA has anything significant to offer or worth using. I'm getting the vibe that RA does not seem to be a very popular or common strategy.
I have a few questions:
Does anyone here use risk averse and have you noticed better results?
How many RA indices do you use and what are the index numbers?
Is the ev of risk averse more significant when a lower bet spread with higher valued units are being used?
If no one here uses RA but still has an understanding of it's theory and applications,can you explain why you choose not to use RA?
I'll be hanging around for a while feel free to ask me any questions and I'll try to be helpful.
Thanks,
Brick
Risk Aversion is Reward Aversion
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Feb-2004 10:57:20 (#6615)
Hey Brick
Risk aversion is also reward aversion when you are playing onland BJ.
"I have a few questions:
"Does anyone here use risk averse and have you noticed better results?
Yes, I do use them when I am playing online.
"How many RA indices do you use and what are the index numbers?
See below......
"Is the ev of risk averse more significant when a lower bet spread with higher valued units are being used?
Don't follow you here....
"If no one here uses RA but still has an understanding of it's theory and applications,can you explain why you choose not to use RA?
I would say again because it effects your overall reward. Here is a little something I wrote in a recent newsletter of mine. I hope you enjoy it. This is how I see RA......roll'em!
Semi Risk Aversive Basic Strategy
Aversion is defined as "the avoidance of a thing, situation, or behaviour because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus." Risk aversion is simply the avoidance of risk. Why would a blackjack player who is constantly risking money be interested in avoiding risk? That would be similar to a person who is afraid of heights becoming a skydiver. Risk aversion in this case is the avoidance of adding extra risk to a hand that will not produce a substantial gain in reward for doing so. Would a skydiver pay an extra 100% to drop from 4050' instead of from 4000'? I don't think so. Increasing your bet by 100% for a small extra edge will pay off over the next 1,000,000 hands, but over the course of a few hundred hands will have little to no effect. Since the majority of our advantage comes from the deposit bonus, not from the perfect play of each and every hand, we can avoid risk at certain times and still come out way ahead.
Which hands add risk to the game of blackjack? We have to place our bet to get our two cards. We always hope that we will get a blackjack, or a pair of ten value cards, or possibly a hand of 18 or 19, and the dealer will show a 5 or 6 as an up card. The extra risk that Basic Strategy will call for is found in the doubling and splitting of hands. Double 11 vs 2-10. Double 10 vs 2-9. Double 9 vs 3-6. Always split 8,8 and A,A. Split 9,9 vs 2-9 but not against a 7. All of these hands call for you to double your bet to get an extra edge. Risk Aversive Basic Strategy asks the question "is the risk worth the extra reward?" And the answer is? Maybe. Let's look at a few examples.
At casino A we buy in for $20 and get a $20 bonus. At casino B we bought in for $20 and were given a $50 bonus. We play each casino and end up losing $20 at both sites. We now have $20 at casino A and $50 at casino B. We are more likely to avoid risk with the $20 left at casino A than we would be at casino B. Quite often when we don't double a hand we will get another chance to pull a card and will often win that hand, although only winning the beginning bet, not the doubled one. The individual casino bankroll can have an effect on your risk aversion.
We are working over a casino that gave us a generous 200% bonus. We have $100 of our own money invested, a $200 bonus, we have won another $100, and carry a casino bankroll of $400. We have been using a progression and we have a whopping $40 bet on the line. 10% of our bankroll. We end up getting 6,4 vs a dealer 9 up. Basic Strategy says we have a 1.6% edge if we double. If we hit we have a 1.14% edge. The difference of adding $40 to your hand for an extra .46% is the difference between Basic Strategy and Risk Aversive Basic Strategy. Are you willing to risk $40, 20% of your casino bankroll, for an extra 20 cents? You are already working with a 5% edge over the casino due to the bonus and play requirements. It's your call.
There are two main forms of Risk Aversive Basic Strategy.
Full Risk Aversive Basic Strategy
FRA-BS is very easy to define. No doubling or splitting of any hand. Ever.
Semi Risk Aversive Basic Strategy
SRA-BS is a little bit more complex. Doubling and splitting of hands is determined by the amount of edge that particular play will add to your advantage. SRA6-BS gives you the plays that come in at over 6% player advantage. I will include the SRA-BS plays all the way down to the 2% advantage level.
SRA6-BS
A,A 5-6
11 5-6
SRA5-BS
A,A 3-6
11 5-6
10 5-6
SRA4-BS
A,A 2-7
9,9 6
8,8 6
11 2-7
10 3-7
SRA3-BS
A,A 2-8
9,9 4-6
8,8 5-7
11 2-8
10 2-7
9 6
A,7 5-6
SRA2-BS
A,A 2-9
9,9 3-8x7
8,8 4-7
7,7 6
3,3 6
11 2-9
10 2-8
9 5-6
A,7 4-6
A,6 6
Re: Risk Aversion is Reward Aversion
Posted by Brick on 11-Feb-2004 11:58:35 (#6630)
Good post Rob. I play blackjack exclusively at brick casinos and under totally different conditions as you do. Of course it would be nice if everytime I walked in a casino and bought in for $1000, they gave me an additional $2000 in chips, but this is not the case. If it was I'd be a millionaire:)If I had an edge as huge as you do, using RA would seem to be insignificant and not necessary. However since you're in the risky world of internet gambling,you made a wise choice using risk averse.
Good luck,
Brick
Re: Risk averse strategies.
Posted by CanKen on 10-Feb-2004 15:32:39 (#6619)
I'm not sure whether the term "risk-averse strategy" includes more than the use of risk-averse indices, but as far as I know, the best explanation and evaluation of R-A indices can be found in Schlesinger's BJA2ed., Ch. 12, PartII.
He concludes that R-A indices will increase SCORE values by reducing risk more than enough to offset the reduction in EV. The improvement isn't a lot, but it's an easy change to make, and it can't hurt.
He lists the seven most useful R-A indices on P.317. Personally, I use those except that, in effect, I never double 10 vs 10 because the R-A index is so high. And, for various reasons, including the high indices, I never split tens anyway.
There's a new BJA3ed. due out in March; maybe it will have more on this topic .
CK
Re: Risk averse strategies.
Posted by CanKen on 11-Feb-2004 10:21:49 (#6628)
There is also good information to be found at "sba21.com".
It says in there somewhere too that BJA3 will have more on RA indices.
CK
Re: Risk averse strategies.
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Feb-2004 00:21:07 (#6625)
I also don't fully understand "risk averse" strategies. The non-risk averse indices are simply the ones that will produce the maximum profit over time, regardless of bankroll. The risk averse ones, as I am reckoning, 1) eliminate throwing extra money in the pot with doubles and splits when your stake is high due to your spread and the increased profit is minimal and 2) place a little more value on pushes when the dealer has a decent card showing (from the dealer's perspective). I can understand why someone with a limited bankroll would find this appealing. But in the end, one play provides the maximum profit, and all the rest do not.
It's a tough call. Losing EV is losing EV, no matter how you slice it. But on the other hand, losing bankroll means lowering your stake, and lowering your stake means lowering your absolute EV. So this is my compromise: if you play for a living and losing bankroll is the equivalent of losing your job, reduce your risk. But if you are a guy like me who is only one real-world paycheck away from getting a new bankroll, play for maximum EV.
Re: Risk averse strategies.
Posted by Brick on 11-Feb-2004 11:44:58 (#6629)
Risk averse is actually suppose to increase EV not reduce it. The theory behind this is that by not risking additional bets on doubling or splitting where the gain is very small,it allows you to bet more at other opportunities and the risk of ruin still remains the same.
I'm interested in EV gain,but not sure of calculating how much more money I can put into action when using RA. This is what I'm concerned about,the correct betting strategies while maintaining the same risk of ruin.
Thanks to everyone for the information.
Brick
U R
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Feb-2004 20:02:08 (#6634)
most welcome. RA is a field that needs more study. And you are right, with my edge, I can fan my nose and still come out ahead. ;> My RA is coupled with my progression McGarvey's Grind, (I know, no progression crap here, tho it does have merit under the circumstances in which I use it, for cover, and against a finite series of events for the mathematically inclined, with a limited bankroll and unlimited possiblity of gain) so it's like putting a rubber on a smart bomb and firing it at point blank range at my favorite online palace of chance.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#6613)
"simpler systems"...
Posted by gehrig on 10-Feb-2004 09:48:39 (#6614)
at least, alternatives/additions to card counting exist today. from what i've seen, they are not in print and likely won't be. as to cost, "$700" would be trivial since publication discards the methods.... viz. warps and tells.
improvement of the skilled player's tools must overcome those continuing casino game tweaks. kinda like you gotta paddle faster than the current.
BJ21
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-Feb-2004 13:40:10 (#6641)
You should see the responses to this at BJ21. I'm surprised the Eliot hasn't had anything to say about it here.
First time counting
Posted by Roy on 10-Feb-2004 23:03:35 (#6623)
After months of practicing both on the computer and dealing cards at home I made my first foray to LV to experience actual combat conditions. I used Knockout and played single deck and some double deck -- mostly at the LVC and 4Q. My bet spread was low: 5 to 25. My greediest play was moving from 5 to 50 when I had a +7 and the dealer turned up a 6. The dealer wheeled a 5 card 21 on me and I lost the hand. Brutal.
The actual process of counting was intially difficult as I lost track of the count on several occasions. As time went on I began to keep an accurate count and was able to deflect the usual distractions -- stupid players, waitresses with big racks, toke hustling dealers, etc. I was also able to relax after awhile and enjoy the whole process. In addition to increasing my bets on plus counts I made several successful insurance plays and stands on 15's and 16's against dealer 10's when the count was appropriate.
By the end of the trip (third day) I felt very confident and was able to keep track of the count accurately but also to maintain some sense of comfort at the table. I was able to process the table distractions while maintaining an accurate count.
I did however end up with a negative cash flow when it was all said and done. My biggest hits were on meaty counts where double downs failed to hit a solid card, dealer 20's and 21's, and most brutal the 4-5-6 card 20's and 21's that seemed to happen fairly often this trip. To hear "Sorry boys, house lucky again" from several dealers was enough to make me sick on more than one occasion.
Anyway, this post is for all you prospective counters out there who think it cannot be done. Counting takes practice and it does take concentration but it is attainable for anyone.
Re: First time counting
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Feb-2004 23:23:19 (#6624)
Welcome to card counting! My first experience was at the Venetian back in October. Now I'm preparing to write a book. This is something you can catch on to very, very quickly. Sorry you didn't have a good first time out. I did, but I've always been very lucky. Losing on the big counts is tough, but at least you were getting good counts. Here on the East Coast all we have is 6D and 8D shoe, and you can play all night waiting for a count and just bleed to death.
Anyway, I think your attitude is great and belies an understanding of what it takes for success. You'll learn to get over the distractions; just think of yourself as a Special Forces soldier who has to do his job with explosions and ugly scenes all around him.
Re: First time counting
Posted by The Mayor on 11-Feb-2004 09:53:57 (#6627)
I'm sorry your first trip out wasn't more successful, but it sounds like you got the swing of it pretty fast. The one thing you wrote that concerned me is:
>My greediest play was moving from 5 to 50 when I had a +7
In other words, you played with a max bet of $25, but once in a while, when you got the itch and couldn't resist you put out more, sometimes twice your max bet. This is as sure a course to ruin as one can steer. You have to decide what your bankroll can tolerate and stay within it. Then make that max bet at EVERY +5 TC.
--Mayor
Re: First time counting
Posted by Roy on 14-Feb-2004 12:27:22 (#6650)
Thank you for the advice on that play. In retrospect I realize that such a play was quite foolish, especially if it had turned into a double down or split situation and I lost. Part of the problem was that I was influenced by some greedy friends who demanded "I put some more out there" when the count was favorable.
On a side note, here's how one of my friends got himself permanently banned from the LVC in DTLV.
1. Enter the game playing $25.
2. On a meaty count move from $25 to $180 and win the hand.
3. Several hands later on the second deal when it was a negative count lower your bet to from $25 to $10.
The result was an immediate tossing. This character cannot even use the restroom in the LVC anymore.
Since Changing Counts
Posted by SammyBoy on 11-Feb-2004 13:07:49 (#6631)
As many of you know I changed from Hi/Lo to the Advanced Omega II count back in November. After 65.5 hours of play I am ahead by $1228 or $18.75 per hour. I've been practicing almost everyday, but I have to say there is nothing like real live casino play to hone your skills. In my latest outing a few weeks ago I made a few bad judgement calls such as playing while much too tired and I also played a few times where there were 1 or 2 players more than what I consider acceptable. After a big losing session, I vowed to not play under those conditions again. I was able to salvage a very nice trip win at then end.
I am very determined to get better at this game. I doubt that I will ever become a full time player, but I would like to play more. I've been thinking about increasing my bankroll sufficiently to become a black chip player. I play mostly single and double deck. With a 1 to 3 spread I can afford to play green currently in SD games, however for DD I have to play red and use a 1 to 6 spread. I have a few concerns about moving to the next level, I hope you guys can help with. The number one concern is the emotional rollercoaster this game can be. Give me some advice as to how I can handle the losses better. What do you do? My next concern is cover. I know the pit scrutiny becomes intense for black chip players. I can play light green spreading 1 to 3 all day long with no heat right now. I do use some camo but really not that much. I also still use a players card when I play. I read alot of conflicting advice about the cards. Some say you get more heat if you don't have a card.
Any and all advice, words of wisdom are much appreciated.
Re: Since Changing Counts
Posted by Tito on 12-Feb-2004 03:52:41 (#6637)
Hi Sammy,if you seriously intend to play black, if you hav'nt already you should really invest in Ian Andersons book Burning the tables in Las Vegas.Not only is the book so helpful but a good read as well.Regards Tito.
Re: Since Changing Counts
Posted by SammyBoy on 13-Feb-2004 15:11:18 (#6645)
Thanks Tito, I think I have Turning but not Burning. I guess I'll look for it this weekend at half priced books.
Anyone know about that Casey Computer?
Posted by John on 11-Feb-2004 18:20:20 (#6633)
I might receive some backlash for this but I have to know about that casey computer. I have actually been considering buying one. Does anyone know someone who has used one? Might biggest concern wouldn't be if I was caught but would I be able to use it with a really fast dealer. On the site it claims to give players a 3% advantage! That is quite a bit. I think it would be possible to achieve if everything they said was true.
Think about this, though. I'm already a criminal. To me, it might be worth the risk. I've been through the system, and I can tell you that from where I'm from, its not on the up and up. In my state, it is extremely corrupt and you might as well run if you are ever charged with something you feel you didn't do.
Re: Anyone know about that Casey Computer?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Feb-2004 20:33:32 (#6636)
No, you do not want one, for several reasons. The first is that it is useless and it cannot count the game any better than an experienced card counter. The second is that it is too cumbersome to use in a real world situation.
The third is that it is illegal, and although you say you are a criminal, you can change that right now if you want to simply by ceasing all criminal behavior. It's much easier to free oneself of the vice of criminality than of many other things such as drugs and alcohol, and if you don't have the discipline to not do something utterly foolish and counterproductive like use a cheating device at a blackjack table, you don't yet have the discipline to be a successful counter no matter what you use.
Re: Anyone know about that Casey Computer?
Posted by SammyBoy on 12-Feb-2004 09:25:07 (#6639)
"In my state, it is extremely corrupt and you might as well run if you are ever charged with something you feel you didn't do."
You must be from Louisiana.
New CC Tell......PHONE JUMPING
Posted by phantom007 on 12-Feb-2004 08:45:13 (#6638)
As we study our game, we read of "tells", i.e., subtle things that we do, often subconsciously, that may I.D. us for what we are, CC's. Common examples include moving one's lips while counting, counting on our fingers, using innocent looking but blatently obvious chip stacks to keep side counts, etc. I have read on more than one occasion that we should practice our skills in front of a mirror, or on video tape, so as to overcome some of these shortcomings.
Anyhow, it seems that every casino that I have ever been in has the same phone system. These phones ring with a musical, undulating, 3-second sound that I cannot put into writing, so I will term the sound "Brrrrrng".
Was playing at the casino bar, Quarter 8/5 VP. Got 4 to a Royal, AND a pair of kings. Tossed the non-suited king, and drew a 2 of hearts...looked pretty with my 4 big spades. One might ask "Phantom, why are you playing 8/5 machines when there are 9/6 across the casino?" ANSWER: There is no bar over there.
Brrrrng!
I jumped...literally! I caught myself jumping/flinching when the phone rang.
To make matters worse, I heard the bartender say into the receiver "Yeah, the big guy at the end of the bar....I'll watch him".
I was sitting at the end of the bar. I am a big guy...same height and weight as an average NFL linebacker...just slightly different Body Mass Index.
Crap! I am under VP survelliance! By the Bartender no less! Wonder what tipped them off??? Possibly the expert play above. Possibly the fact that I was playing the worst VP machine in the house made them think that I knew something that they did not....in reality, just knew where the bar was.
Thought about dropping back to one coin (for cover)...oh hell, just keep playing 5 coins. And a few minutes later....
Brrrrrng!
I jumped again! Damn! Bartender said "OK" and hung up. I looked back over my shoulder and saw a security guard heading straight towards.........THE BIG GUY at the OTHER END of the bar. The guard said something to the patron, and then they both left together.
I can only guess that the patron was there for "Quarter Beer Night"...play one quarter, get a free beer, repeat.
Anyhow, I had known for a long time that I "tense up" when the Pit phone goes "brrrrrng"...did not realize that I physically responded.
Every time I think that "I am getting good", I have to go back and learn/re-learn something basic.
Things to do:
-----#1: Buy phone that goes "brrrrrng".
-----#2: Respond to multiple internet ads for aluminum siding, term life ins., etc., and include my phone #.
-----#3: Sit in front of mirror with my phone that goes "brrrrrng".
-----#4: Practice, Practice, Practice!
phantom007.
with enou' table time...
Posted by gehrig on 12-Feb-2004 09:45:17 (#6640)
one may beyond counting, study pitstiff moves. while of less value than the dealer tells of yore, observing the pitstiff minuet is amusing.
they're stuck in a corral and have limited turf. maybe they have 4 or 5 tables to hawk. their mic duties require certain actions as approving color ups/buy-ins, attending to rack fills, opening/closing and hourly checque counts, settling disputes. as well they are rating players, approving/acknowledging shoe shuffles, writing markers, greeting worthy buy-in players, hitting on cocktail servers, assigning tables, listening to dealer whining, eyeballing for player or dealer procedural errors, and otherwise appearing to be attentive under the eyes of the shift/pit bosses.
screen out those gymnastics, kinda like twisting the squelch knob, and what's left is of interest to the skilled player.
an obvious 'stiff move is the call to/from the eye with back turned to the suspect player. or, the give-him-some-rope, avoidance of the table entirely. howsabout the back up to the table cum whispered instructions to the dealer ? i recall that "secret code"/foreign language instruction by the 'stiff at the pioneer..."uno mano". duh.
mebbe the coolest 'stiff move is the 'stiff "reunion"/huddle at a distance while discussing a suspect player. one comes to mind at the 'shoe. at my elbow, two 'stiffs were hiding behind my side of a column, one peeking around each side like a couple kids trying to hide behind a tree. they were eyeballing another table, commenting on a suspected counter's strategy plays. their comments revealed the level of their skill.
best mebbe was at the santa fe. the 'stiff board meeting/huddle, after some ten minutes of pulaver, sent in their best man. the dude places his elbow on the layout next to me carefully scanning the play. like i think i saw his lips moving. of course, i downshifted to an apparent 1-2/up-down/parlay-"pull back"/hunch, wager orchestration. that lasted for about 5 minutes when the annointed 'stiff spun around and gloatingly returned to the huddle, loudly proclaiming "he's a progression player" midway back to the flock.
i miss that s.d./das santa fe game.
Re: New CC Tell......PHONE JUMPING
Posted by AnonThisTime on 13-Feb-2004 02:43:52 (#6642)
when i hear that certain ring.... i usually try to act impassive about it, but often times I'll yell out to the PC, "If that's for me, I'm not here!"
Re: New CC Tell......PHONE JUMPING
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-Feb-2004 11:52:25 (#6643)
Great essay! Honestly I never hear the phone ring when I'm playing, and if I did I wouldn't associate it with any kind of trouble. Being visibly nervous or afraid of anything is never good. But I've had dealers tell me what the profile is of a counter in their store. I just love it when dealers give you these lectures on counting and counters, how they have them all figured out, meanwhile you are spreading like crazy while feigning interest in their words of wisdom.
The Wheelchair as act
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-Feb-2004 11:58:27 (#6644)
Not to be disrespectful of handicapped people or anything, but I've noticed that casinos have reserved seating for wheelchair users, at a table that is usually low min and uncrowded.
An advantage player is always looking for opportunities, and this is one. Not only does it get you into some decent playing conditions, but due to the legal climate I think many places would be afraid of harassing or being perceived as harassing a handicapped person.
I'm not saying I'm going to do this, because I don't want to mock anyone with a disability and also if they realize I'm not handicapped I am a dead duck. Cellini had an essay in there about a guy pretending to be blind. Just as a thought experiment, I wonder what effect being in a wheelchair would have on your ability to count and get away with it.
Re: The Wheelchair as act
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 13-Feb-2004 16:51:26 (#6646)
It doesn't seem to me like the effort+risk to benefit ratio would warrant this.
You would need to use the chair all the time at a given place, or you'd have to use a facial disguise too.
>> "Not only does it get you into some decent playing conditions"
I don't think so.
You couldn't wong in to normal tables because they are too high up, and wonging out to hit another table couldn't happen because there are usually only one or two low ones. So, this pretty much eliminates shoe games. How many handicap-accessable single deck tables are there in any given area?
>>"I've noticed that casinos have reserved seating for wheelchair users "
If there is reserved seating, where one has to give up their seat if a handicapped person wants in, I'm sure there could be legal ramifications for posing as a handicapped person.
This just seems like an awful lot of work and risk to take advantage of anyones fear of harassing you.
Just my thoughts
-Felix
Re: The Wheelchair as act
Posted by Big Cowboy on 13-Feb-2004 17:03:51 (#6647)
I agree with Felix. The disadvantages and limitations in movement would definitely overwhelm the advantages of lower minimums and usually having one less person playing (empty reserved handicapped spot) than at a regular full table. By the way, Larry Flynt plays away from the crowds anyway and not with the red chippers.
This is fairly old and well known
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Feb-2004 12:01:21 (#6648)
This ruse may have worked 10 years ago, but today anyone in a wheelchair is immediately a suspect for cheating if they pull up to a table (not so at the machines).
--Mayor
Re: This is fairly old and well known
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Feb-2004 13:31:35 (#6687)
Great for reading hole cards if you can find the right dealer playing HC tables. Drop a roll or two of quarters into the slots between table sessions with your players cards and you might pull it off. And hope you never really need a chair. You might voodoo your own ass into needing one 24/7/365. This is one of the great cons the Grifter used to pull before he went to the crowbar hotel. What ever you decide to do, remember, it reflects on who you are. What appears to be voodoo is cause and effect working with you in the middle. Step on a spider and it will rain. The spider was coming in to hide from the approaching rain when the barometer in his body told him to, only to find your cruel soul on his back. There goes 1000 spider webs around the back patio this summer, and you wonder why there are so many West Nile virus mosquitos buzzing around your head.
Re: This is fairly old and well known
Posted by don on 23-Feb-2004 17:28:24 (#6794)
How about a good stuttering act? Most people look down on them and never expect them to be expert. Also a good way to clear out the table as it makes the other players uncomfortable putting with the excessive delays.
European Games
Posted by BradRod on 14-Feb-2004 22:17:38 (#6653)
Greetings all, Hope everyone is playing rich games.
I am travelling to Europe this week. Will mainly be in Budapest, Hungary and Vienna, Austria.
Does anyone know what the games are like there? Is there a typical "European" game or does it vary by country ? What rule variations might they have ?
I heard that they do not peak to see if the dealer has BJ or not.
Is counting against the law in any country outsode the US and Canada ?
I have identified a couple of casinos there that I will visit. Will post a report of what I find when I return . Any information or resources will be greatly appreciated.
Went to Europe Last August.
Posted by Titaniumman on 15-Feb-2004 12:48:29 (#6656)
I am travelling to Europe this week. Will mainly be in Budapest, Hungary and Vienna, Austria.
I didn't go to those countries, but I went to Italy, Switzerland, France, and Monaco.
Does anyone know what the games are like there? Is there a typical "European" game or does it vary by country ? What rule variations might they have? I heard that they do not peak to see if the dealer has BJ or not.
ENHC - European No Hole Card - The dealer does not receive a second card until all the players have played their hand. The problem is that if a player has doubled down or split, <u>all money</u> on the table is taken if the dealer wins. All of the games I saw were six deck CSM.
Is counting against the law in any country outsode the US and Canada ?
Not so much as illegal, but Eastern European countries like the ones you are visiting have a reputation for taking even stronger measures against counters than the U.S.
I have identified a couple of casinos there that I will visit. Will post a report of what I find when I return . Any information or resources will be greatly appreciated.
Good luck. Looking forward to your report.
Re: Went to Europe Last August.
Posted by BradRod on 15-Feb-2004 14:52:02 (#6657)
Titaniumman - Thanks for your reply.
you did not say how much you played at these places ? How did you do ?
>>>I didn't go to those countries, but I went to Italy, Switzerland, France, and Monaco.
I visited switzerland a few years ago before my counting days. I stopped at a small casino near Davos but did not go in. They were requiring ID be shown at the door -- not just possible minors, antone of age also They were taking down the info. I did not have my ID with me but my friends did go in. There were mainly slot machines with very few if any table games. This was a very small place though. My friends were complaining that they had some strange rules about cashing in winnings designed to keep all the money from ever leaving the place.
>>>>>ENHC - European No Hole Card - The dealer does not receive a second card until all the players have played their hand. The problem is that if a player has doubled down or split, all money on the table is taken if the dealer wins.
There is no insurance offered I assume. With a ten up , he might still get that Ace at the back end. A side count of Aces is almost a must to play at this game. Also 3rd base would be the spot to play so that you can continue to count as hands are played and adjust your play accordingly by the time it comes around to you.
If it is worth playing at all ?? Is there any strategy published for this sort of game ?
>>>>>All of the games I saw were six deck CSM.
Continuous Shuffle Machines ? - No point in counting at all, means no point in playing either .
>>>>>>Not so much as illegal, but Eastern European countries like the ones you are visiting have a reputation for taking even stronger measures against counters than the U.S.
Such as ??
Embarrassingly
Posted by Titaniumman on 15-Feb-2004 15:36:34 (#6659)
I played only a few hands.
Actually, it's not that embarrassing. I don't play CSMs, and should not be ashamed to admit it. Moreover, ENHC is a severe negative factor as well.
On top of that, the casinos expect the players to dress very well. That was not my problem, but the severe record breaking heat in Europe made looking one's best very difficult just walking from the parked car to the casino in tie and jacket.
Most of the casinos I visited were under French management. It was only about four months since the media had been showing the world Americans pouring French wines into gutters (Funny, I'm drinking a glass of white Bordeaux as I write this.) in protest of France's lack of support in Iraq. I, and my less than fluent command of Italian were not held in high regard by the French.
I ended up pulling blackjack out of my vacation. I swam at the topless beach in Monte Carlo, snorkled in the Mediterranean in Livorno, Italy, climbed the Leaning Tower, saw Ibex on top of mountains in Switzerland, drove all over Tuscany, spent a night in Venice, and ate fantastic cuisine. I also flew business class both ways thanks to free pass from Wildcard's wife who is a flight attendant.
I possess another such pass, and am considering Sao Paulo.
Carnival ?
Posted by BradRod on 15-Feb-2004 15:47:20 (#6661)
Thanks again. you've help me keep blackjack expectations in check for this trip. I'll let you know what I find in Austria and Hungary. I've been to Venice also . great trip .
Perceptive
Posted by Titaniumman on 15-Feb-2004 16:08:47 (#6663)
The plan would be to drive from Sao Paulo in two different directions. One is to a casino between the Iguazu Falls in Argentina.
The other is, of course to Rio de Janiero. Unfortunately, work does not permit me to take time off soon, so I can't catch Carnivale'.
Re: Went to Europe Last August.
Posted by Shark on 15-Feb-2004 15:41:10 (#6660)
Budapest- at the time of my visit had three casinos. Varkert- 6DK ENHC S17 DOA DAS ES10 with dealer dependant penetration averageing 4.5/6. The other two are Las Vegas casino and Tropicana. They offer same rules without surrender. The last two casinos have many tables in both local currency and US dollars and wonging is possible. Wonging is tolerated in Varkert if not too agressive. In my opinion back offs are more civil than in the U.S. they don't even have back room.
Austria- CSM only. The best place to play when in Austria is in Czech casinos located 1Km. from Austria border. You can find ES10 on some of those Czech casinos. I hope that helps. Shark
Re: Went to Europe Last August.
Posted by BradRod on 15-Feb-2004 16:49:30 (#6665)
yes shark, thanks. a couple of questions though
ES10 ?
and approximately where would i find that czech casino ?
how did you deal w/ ENHC, startegy -wise ?
Re: Went to Europe Last August.
Posted by Shark on 15-Feb-2004 17:21:28 (#6666)
ES10- early surrender Vs.10 (actually early surrender against all upcards other than Ace)
ENHC strategy- you don't double or split Vs. picture or ace with the exception that you still split AA Vs. 10.
I didn't play in Czech casinos across Austria border. I played in Czech casinos across Germany border in Folmava (4 casinos to choose from) and Zelena-Ruda. I saw on the map that they have a few by the Austrian border as well.
Check with a map and www.casinocity.com which towns are near Austria
Shark
Good info.
Posted by BradRod on 15-Feb-2004 23:35:28 (#6668)
thanks Shark. In checking the website you cited I found that the 2 closest Czech cities with casinos to Vienna are in Znojmo and Brno. These casinos only have one or 2 blackjack tables each. I think I will stick to Budapest for blackjack. Varkert looks like the best candidate. I'll stick to sightseeing in Vienna. Let you know how it went when I get back.
Brad
Wanted: Blackjack Cartoonist
Posted by Titaniumman on 15-Feb-2004 16:01:49 (#6662)
Are you, or someone you know, an aspiring cartoonist who would like to have an established comic strip on your resume'?
As you may or may not know, bj21.com now has a Social & Humor page.
I have created the concept of a comic strip about blackjack. There are ten initial characters including ploppies, pit personnel, and advantage players complete with names and physical descriptions. Several episodes are written, primarily with characters at a blackjack table.
The name of the fictitious casino has been made, and a hilarious title for the comic strip has been selected.
The plan is to post a weekly episode on Social & Humor. Posters will be encouraged to submit scripts for episodes in which they will get the byline.
Cameo appearances of members of the blackjack community will be made matching the image of their handles. For instance, if an episode called for Eliot to appear, with his approval, a caricature of a typical mayor would be used.
Once the comic strip is running on its own, I would like to step away leaving ownership of it to the artist.
Chris Kelly, over at bj21.com will assist in showing how to get the artwork onto the site. I can digitize artwork on a scanner at work if needed.
Re: Wanted: Blackjack Cartoonist
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Feb-2004 16:28:36 (#6664)
What a great idea -- I hope someone steps forward.
Hinoon?
Re: Wanted: Blackjack Cartoonist
Posted by HiNoon on 17-Feb-2004 13:27:23 (#6686)
Titaniumman,
I might be able to help you out. Sounds like a fun project.
What's the best way to contact you?
Re: Wanted: Blackjack Cartoonist
Posted by Titaniumman on 17-Feb-2004 17:19:42 (#6692)
Hello Hinoon,
I've read your posts before, but I didn't know you drew. I always keep an email address available (maybe not the best idea, but I do).
It's pobiddy@bellsouth.net. Email me, and I will send you what I have drafted up for your perusal. Even though I am not an employee of bj21 and am not making anything off of this, I will personally pay for one year's subscription to Greenchip for the artist. The artist will have sole ownership of the cartoon strip.
-T-
Re: Wanted: Blackjack Cartoonist
Posted by The Mayor on 17-Feb-2004 17:56:14 (#6694)
Excellent! I have a great big smile across my face in anticipation. I look forward to the good times to come.
--Mayor
Hinoon will be a good addition to Green Chip
Posted by LVBear584 on 17-Feb-2004 18:50:44 (#6695)
I'm looking forward to the cartoons as well.
Re: Hinoon will be a good addition to Green Chip
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Feb-2004 07:31:09 (#6698)
I can vouch for Hi Noon. A real team player thru and thru. Have fun!
Re: Hinoon will be a good addition to Green Chip
Posted by HiNoon on 18-Feb-2004 16:55:04 (#6702)
Thanks for all the kind support guys!
Apparently the pressure is on!
Nothing like a little heat to tip the adrenaline eh?
Well, hopefully I make the grade, and if not me personally, I think I can probably help this project along. We shall see.
Now, back to your BS tables! Those indices won't learn themselves!
--HiNoon
Pressure (Attention Al Rogers)
Posted by Titaniumman on 18-Feb-2004 22:31:16 (#6707)
This post serves as authorization to BJ21 to charge my credit card for a year's subscription to Greenchip for Hinoon.
If nobody from the administration responds, I will directly email bj21 by this Saturday.
Will be done tomorrow, thanks. *NM*
Posted by Al Rogers on 19-Feb-2004 00:32:47 (#6710)
Re: Hinoon will be a good addition to Green Chip
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Feb-2004 07:21:18 (#6718)
Just sleep with them under your pillow and they will soak into your head! Hey, it looks like you've been commissioned. I might do the same thing at my leisure here for the guys here since I'm sure no one but a Green Chipper will get to see your works of art....unless you put that into the contract....
Re: Wanted: Blackjack Cartoonist *LINK*
Posted by Kevin Blackwood on 16-Feb-2004 12:40:28 (#6679)
I have worked with a very skilled cartoonist on a few projects in the past. He might be a good person to get involved, but would there be any pay in this venture for him?
Nope
Posted by Titaniumman on 16-Feb-2004 19:16:17 (#6680)
I'm not paying anyone. Then again, I'm not looking to make a red cent.
My intentions are to provide a neat source of entertainment to the community. Blackjack Forum used to have a single frame comic called The Adventures of Mr. B which I did not think to be too funny. I think I can start something much much better.
I feel that a comic strip appearing once a week on Social & Humor would be looked forward to each week by the community. I also think that the way this strip is devised, many a member would have ideas for episodes from personal experience or imagination that would delight the audience. (C'mon, all of you players, can't everyone of you conjur up a favorite anecdote that include some of the following: dealers, savvy players, a pit boss, some ploppies, and a cute cocktail waitress?) You can always have Stanford Wong stolling by as a wise old Chinese sage, or The Bishop in his clerical collar, beard, and derby hat like in his sermons. Each episode would give credit to the artist and to each episode's writer.
Once the strip was running on its own, I would be happy to let it be the sole property of the artist.
I'm not doing this for any other reason but for fun.
I think that it could be a great opportunity for an aspiring cartoonist for their portfolio. An established artist may or may not be able to realize a material advantage for doing this. That's up to them.
Then again, they might want to do it for fun, too.
I Don't Mind
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Feb-2004 13:12:38 (#6685)
drawing something like BJF type covers with felt markers, pastel, or even oils for fun, but not an entire strip. It would have to be a labor of love, and if you are not paying, the artist already owns the work, you don't have to hand everything over to him or her. A wonderful idea, like wishing your wife will always do the dishes for free...smile Here's your first instalment of the free cartoon below........
You get what you pay for! smile
RM
Idea for Cartoon
Posted by SammyBoy on 17-Feb-2004 17:11:26 (#6691)
Here's the scene: Table full of BJ players, a well endowed blond with curves in all the right places with boobs practically busting out walks by. The game basically stops and everyone is checking her out except for the dude wearing the wig and sunglasses because he is scanning the table to coun the cards.
Re: Idea for Cartoon
Posted by Titaniumman on 17-Feb-2004 17:26:25 (#6693)
Here's the scene: Table full of BJ players, a well endowed blond with curves in all the right places with boobs practically busting out walks by. The game basically stops and everyone is checking her out except for the dude wearing the wig and sunglasses because he is scanning the table to coun the cards.
See? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Ideas submitted by the readers.
Your idea would fit right in. There is a regular cast of characters including a gorgeous cocktail waitress who could be the girl walking by. One of our "hero" counters could be the one in camoflage, and we have regular ploppies and pit personnel in the cast who could be the admirers. (I'm giving away more than I intended to about the strip ahead of time.)
Re: Idea for Cartoon
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Feb-2004 19:52:39 (#6696)
you want zombie eyes on the guys? I can even put zombie eyes on the counter who can't take his eyes off the felt. Reminds me of a Caribana T shirt I have called Bumpattie Ridah!
Zombie Eyes?
Posted by Titaniumman on 17-Feb-2004 22:26:52 (#6697)
In a comic strip, it sounds like Orphan Annie.
:-)
Re: Zombie Eyes?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Feb-2004 07:36:41 (#6699)
There is a technique you can use to make the comic look exactly like the old ones did, the dot dot dot look that you old timers grew up reading. Now kids watch ReBoot and all the new PS2 games. A screen capture of MegaByte as surveillance, those little robots as ploppies, and those gorgeous overly developed babes as dealers, and Stan Wong 007 as the hero could be in order.
cartoonist
Posted by Phillip Erickson on 24-Aug-2004 18:59:38 (#9829)
My name is Phil. Hi. I am a cartoonist that has alot of great idea's for cartoon strips that at this time I would like to share some of them with other's like you.
also I have alot of fun working with other people ideas too.. If you have a idea, or want to see my work then just e-mail me and ask for what you would like to see...
I have been working on a cartoon about a used car sale's man. alot of bar cartoons. and alway looking for more idea's..
thank you for reading this.
phil
what's your email? *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Aug-2004 19:33:49 (#9858)
Boneheaded ploppy
Posted by BradRod on 15-Feb-2004 18:05:04 (#6667)
I was having a very nice run this past weekend. Wound up + 132 units in 3.5 hours of play.
I was getting kind of antsy to leave as I had a bit of a long ride home and in the last session of play I had to fight to win back the drop of 36 units at thwe beginning of the session. Once I recovered that plus a little extra. I was raring to leave. on the last hand i was playing one spot with a $ 150 bet - BLACKJACK !. while the dealer was paying the other BJ hand on the table, i started scooping up the chips I had on the table. Ploppy screams "hey , where are those chips disappearing to ." It was also the last hand of the shoe. the dealer was gonna have to go around and work the other's players hands, play his hand, payout . etc. I had no need to wait for any of that or waiting for him to get pit's attention for coloring up. When I got my payoff. I grabbed it and bolted. I could hear that moron .. screaming " hey come back here and color up "
Sometimes i feel like the casinos dont need heat as long as they have moron's like that doing their work for them.
Re: Boneheaded ploppy
Posted by SammyBoy on 16-Feb-2004 09:12:27 (#6669)
What a jackass. It seems the casinos are a magnet for people like that.
Re: Boneheaded ploppy
Posted by The Mayor on 16-Feb-2004 09:59:00 (#6671)
It is very possible that the bonehead was an under cover agent for the casino. There are more of them than you might imagine. He saw how well you were doing and wanted to make sure the casino was able to follow correct procedure in your case.
Re: Boneheaded ploppy
Posted by BradRod on 16-Feb-2004 10:16:22 (#6672)
that's a sobering thought . thanks for the caution.
Re: Boneheaded ploppy
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 16-Feb-2004 10:44:14 (#6673)
Long, long ago, when I was a basic strategy player, I had an interesting experience. I was winning at an uncanny rate over a 3 day period. At the end of the 3rd day, not having any concept of bankroll at the time, went into the high stakes salon and started throwing out black chips. And, I started winning even more.
I was at a table by myself. After 20 minutes a woman sits down next to me with about $150 in chips(she didn't buy in), and started talking a mile a minute. She kept asking questions and she wouldn't shut up. She lost her chips almost immediately at the $50 minimum table. But she stayed and talked my ear off until I left 30ish minutes later. There is a big sign "Players Only" outside the area. The pit didn't ask her to leave because she wasn't playing. I don't think they usually tolerate this.
I've always thought this person was a shill. I believe they thought I was counting. I took a lot of money from them that weekend even though it was dumb luck, and I was there a lot.
This happened in one of the places in a market that you play in.
-Felix
Beware of the Captain ...LOL *NM*
Posted by BradRod on 16-Feb-2004 11:39:36 (#6677)
Eye,Eye.....!!! *NM*
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 16-Feb-2004 11:44:57 (#6678)
Re: Boneheaded ploppy
Posted by Victoria on 16-Feb-2004 10:49:54 (#6674)
Perhaps he worked for the casino but more likely he was just one of those people who wanted to show off his knowledge of casino procedure without even knowing the real reason for the procedure.
I have run into the same sort many times while wonging out. I generally say I am moving to a close by table but the damage has been done. Funny though, if I am telling the truth, I always land at the new table with less chips than when I left the old one.
There are just a lot of people who want to show off their supposive knowledge of things for their egos. Either way, they should just mind their own business. Not quite as bad as the idiot who points out a dealer error in your favor, got to hate those guys.
Re: Boneheaded ploppy
Posted by BradRod on 16-Feb-2004 11:04:19 (#6676)
>>>>> wanted to show off his knowledge of casino procedure without even knowing the real reason for the procedure.
That was my impression of him at the time as well. The Mother Hen of the table who gets all bent out of shape if things arent done precisely according to their expectations and no one can do anything at the table without them commenting about it one way or the other.
I think the lesson of the episode for me is not to play overly--- -tired, anxious, depressed, angry, exhuberant ....... All those emotional nasty's that manage to trip you up one way or the other. I was not even aware of this guy , until it was too late to beat him back or grace him over. Whether the shill or Mother Hen a little more awareness would have put me in a better situation to prevent what happened.
There did not seem to have been any damage in this case because I was already half out the door but I think I will have to use caution when going back there again.
Funny You Mention That
Posted by SammyBoy on 16-Feb-2004 11:00:08 (#6675)
I have been very suspicious of certain players on a few occasions that have joined my table and displayed an interest in me. I can remember thinking that they could possibly be casino employees and I treated them as such. Afterwards I felt like I was possibly being paranoid. It's good to know that those things really do happen.
Re: Funny You Mention That
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Feb-2004 01:23:44 (#6682)
In Nevada I know a shill working at a poker table must by law identify himself. But if it is a security operation at a BJ table it's probably different.
Anyway, I doubt this guy was a casino employee. Just a wise guy. You're under no obligation to color up. But if I am going to leave under suspicious circumstances, I just tell them I am going to the bathroom, pocket my chips, and ask for a lammer. Then I go on the lam.
What is California Blackjack?
Posted by SammyBoy on 16-Feb-2004 09:32:43 (#6670)
I see that the Bike near LA offers this game. I'm sure it is not worth playing, but I'm curious as to what it is?
Re: What is California Blackjack?
Posted by deZerTomB on 16-Feb-2004 19:48:47 (#6681)
I've never played there, but years ago I played 7 card stud at Commerce. I think California Blackjack is what the Indian Casinos used to offer before the compact. Basically it is regular blackjack with an ante. Then another player is the bank. That way the house faces no risk and it's not a banked game. Your best bet is to take your whole bankroll and try to be the bank, if they'll let you. Somebody gets to do it, might as well be you.
Unless prop 57(? i think that's it) passes allowing the horse tracks and card clubs to offer slots and table games, everything in California that's not on an Indian Reservation has to have an ante to be legal right now. At least that's my understanding.
Probably "No-Bust" Blackjack *LINK*
Posted by Sonny on 17-Feb-2004 15:07:41 (#6689)
The Bicycle Casino (and many others) offer California "No-Bust" Blackjack. Even with the proper basic strategy it is still unplayable, unless you are banking it. Check the link below.
My advice is not to waste your time. You can still find playable games elsewhere is SoCal, but you'll have to drive for a while.
-Sonny-
Memorizing Cards.
Posted by Jorks on 18-Feb-2004 14:55:55 (#6700)
Hello,
I am kind of new to Black Jack, or at least to the card counting aspects of it, I have read enough to understand the basic logics but I still have a question or two.
Counting Cards v.s. Memorizing Cards.
What practical / statistical advantages would I be able to use if I was able to memorize all the card that has been dealt of each value? (1-6 Decks).
The reason why I am asking this is because I am planning to learn some more serious black jack strategies and I don't think I will have any problems memorizing the cards. I just need to know if, and in that case, how much better this would be than "simple" card counting strategies (based on +/-) and maybe if someone would like to give me some general advices on what practical uses this could have I would really appriciate it.
Also, if someone have some books/videos/webpages to recommend on this subject It would be great.
I am sorry if these are stupid newbie-questions but I have tried to find information about this subject on the internet and I haven't really found anything useful.
Thanks!
/Jorks
Re: Memorizing Cards.
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Feb-2004 16:28:00 (#6701)
Well, the problem you will have after memorizing all the cards is what do you do with this information after you have it? The count for us does two things; it determines how much we are going to bet and it influences some playing decisions. We have a slew of matrices and tables we memorize in order to do this. I suppose if you knew exactly which cards were left in the shoe you could recalculate the most advantageous play based on this information and closed-form probability calculations but I believe you would need a computer for this. Maybe you can do this without a computer, God bless you if you can, but you'd likely be better off learning a standard counting technique.
Re: Memorizing Cards.
Posted by Jorks on 18-Feb-2004 19:42:33 (#6705)
Thanks for your answer.
"Well, the problem you will have after memorizing all the cards is what do you do with this information after you have it? "
This is what I was thinking about also, I just don't want to stand at the table and have my head ful of useless information. I was thinking about combining memorizing the cards with already tested card counting strategies in some creative way. And take advantage of more rare "situations", ex, close to the end of the decks or in the middle when there are variations that the +/- system don't pick up (at least not the basic versions that I have read).
I figured that experinced card counters should know what kind of situations happen frequently were it would be valuble to know more about the specific cards that are left/have been dealt.
Ex. Dealer 7, player 16. Would it be valuable to know the exact amount of A-2-3-4-5 that's left, or is it enough information to know the +/- rate and stuff like that in order to always make the best decision? I mean in even in the heat of a BJ game it's not that hard to make some additions and divide it with the estimated numbers of cards left in the deck. (or the number of 5-6-7-8-9's that's left, or a combination).
The procedure would be somthing like, "when dealer has 7 and player 16" - > keep +/- in mind, IF there is many A-5 left -> hit, IF there is many 5-9's left -> check. Of course the specifics would have to be calculated before playing, but the maths shouldn't have to be that hard when it comes to unique sitiuations like this.
I know that my theories may seem a bit strange and probably I sound very much like a typical newbie, but it would be nice to hear from active players were they themselves feel that they could use some more information about the remaining deck in order to make a decision that's different from the original mathematical system.
/Jorks
Re: Memorizing Cards.
Posted by eyesfor21 on 19-Feb-2004 10:08:19 (#6720)
That would give you an edge even if your not too accurate
over the average player.Just like when I go to the gym be it only
once a week,its still better than most.
Re: Memorizing Cards.
Posted by feep on 19-Feb-2004 11:34:48 (#6721)
You seem to think the +/- count is simple so something should be added to it.
For this "simple" +/- count there are, theoretically, about a thousand indices to learn.
If you are going to examine your two cards and the dealers and then the remaining composition of the deck, there are probably ten-thousand situations at least. Keep in mind that because of penetration you'll have to be calculating percentages at all times in your head in realtime instead of absolute numbers.
Oh yeah, now throw in the effects of different #s of decks and different rules (because you don't think you'll be doing this all at one casino, right?) So that's say a couple hundred thousand situations.
Good luck.
By the way, once you do learn these ten-thousand situations, you will be barred, if not beaten, within seconds of walking into any casino for hitting that hard 17 and doubling the 8 vs 3 (and winning).
If you CAN do the math, please contact me, because I will bank you and work with you to generate cover. Just make sure your health insurance is up-to-date.
Also keep in mind that more than half the difficulty of counting is getting away with it.
So, simply put, the "+/-" will get you the money. Many pros use simple level-one counts. Just try not to get caught.
If you want to make it harder you can side-count aces and/or tens.
If you want to make it even harder you can count single-deck at the El Cortez.
Feep
Re: Memorizing Cards.
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 19-Feb-2004 11:52:10 (#6722)
I don't believe the blackjack game these days will allow the expert "memorizor" much more of an advantage than the expert card counter. Reason being, most games are not dealt deep enough. In the old days single deck games were dealt to the bottom. If you could memorize all the played cards, you would know the make-up of the last hand of cards. This would be very advantageous. My recommendation for you, since you are looking to put a lot of effort into this, is to investigate a higher level count than the hi-low. Check out the Advanced Omega 2 or the Hi-Opt 2. You can also utilize what are called multi-paramenter tables. Multi-parameters are essentially keeping a side count of the cards that are typically valued zero in the main count. Depending on the density of these side cards, you playing decisions will vary.
Truthfully though, I wouldn't expect to see much of a gain from all this extra work. Only if you are playing with an enormous betting unit and planning on playing into the millions of hands, would the gain from these tactics be visible.
Re: Memorizing Cards.
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Feb-2004 16:57:07 (#6703)
>What practical / statistical advantages would I be able to use if I was able to memorize all the card that has been dealt of each value? (1-6 Decks).
If you could memorize the entire deck and know the order of all the cards before they were played in a 6 deck shoe, then you could play God's strategy -- spread to the right number of hands to guarantee a win on each hand (with a few exceptions). I believe the edge is 52% in this case. This has been done using computers -- back in the early 80's.
Re: Memorizing Cards.
Posted by Jorks on 18-Feb-2004 18:41:41 (#6704)
Hehe I am sorry, english is not my first language. I didn't mean that I could know the order before they were played, but I agree that it would be great. Still, that would be to believe a bit too much in myself, maybe. :)
What I meant was the counting of the already played cards (and the ones in play), instead of using the +/- system that I find all over the internet (I am a card counting newbie), in what ways could there be advantages knowing the exact cards that have been played?
I was thinking that with the all the played cards memorized and a quick head, a player should be able to use that knowledge to his advantage. It seems logical to me, and I was just wondering what kind of knowledge there already is about this kind of card counting.
Re: Memorizing Cards.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Feb-2004 07:15:03 (#6717)
"If you could memorize the entire deck and know the order of all the cards before they were played in a 6 deck shoe, then you could play God's strategy"
When you are as rich as he is there is no need to play blackjack anymore ;>
Re: Memorizing Cards.
Posted by Sa-8-10 on 21-Feb-2004 09:56:43 (#6758)
in fact if god is so rich does he continuee to pass the collection plate ?
Re: Memorizing Cards.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Feb-2004 17:21:09 (#6762)
No, it's Malcom the painter at my POW. ;>
BJ Trips and Published Books
Posted by wongout on 18-Feb-2004 20:18:25 (#6706)
I have been skimming through a BJ book by a well known gaming author (actually havent found much value in there) and found it striking how different our two views and experiences are of advantage play. For example, in his "report" he starts off a trip by getting into vegas early to relax followed by a good nights sleep; waking in his luxurious comped room; enjoying a leisurely breakfast followed by scouting, hanging out at the pool, perhaps a little BJ and then a gourmet comped dinner. Dinner is followed by a little more BJ and then enjoying a show and turning in early to relax and enjoy...
My trips on the other hand are grinds and all business. I typically play the weekends when conditions are best for my style of play. Thats means I cram my day job into 4 days (usually work the weekend before) to support taking Friday off. I rush out of work on Thurs a bit early and (a bit guilty) to make my evening flight (dinner is anything quick and gross that I can find in the airport). On the flight out I try to sleep to be able to get down to business upon my arrival. If I can get two full hours in I feel like I am off to a good start. Upon arrival it takes me about 2 hours to get from the airport to my room before I am ready to play. My rest consists of a 10 minute nap to rest my eyes for the night ahead. I play when I arrive for two reasons: maximize play time (max ev and to give me the best chance to end up ahead at the end of the year) and I like to play out swing shift which means I have to overcome jet lag at some point and when you have a weekend you dont have time to slowly adjust. BTW - no comped rooms for me; I have been tossed out of too many joints to stay where I play. Its either the cheapest dive I can book (a dollar saved is a dollar earned) or I use my hotel points from business travel to stay at an off-strip business class hotel.
Anyhow if I land at 11pm; I'll play till 4 or 5 am while moving around alot since the casinos are pretty quiet on weekdays at this time. I crash just before dawn hoping to catch 6-8 good hours but the damn time difference means that my body allows me about 3 hours before waking me up. I'll usually toss and turn for whatever period of time where I think I have a chance of getting some sleep after which I finally give up; shower; practice; and then grab a coffee and scarf down some tasteless pastry for breakfast while moving to my first job.
Starting out I bang away and continue to move since the weekend crowds havent arrived. Lunch is whatever is put out any the of high roller buffets that you find in most casinos (I have a few favorites that i'll keep to myself). Usually I get 2-3 calls from the office and always call back promptly (as soon as the count tanks of course) during the day. Once I got onto an emergent conference call from a pay phone and got to enjoy the spectacle of a hooker getting busted right next to me. It was kinda of nerve-wracking trying to cover the mouthpiece so that her screams would not be overheard.
Anyhow - dinner is usually comped (but quick - again lost time is something I cant afford) and even with the comp I cant afford the buzz of enjoying a glass of wine at this point since my prime playing time is just beginning. Its kinda funny trying to talk a host out of a gourmet comp; no I just want the snack bar! After dinner - a quick nap, shower and then off to the tables for swing shift (I play the entire shift ending play around 4 am).
Second nights are better sleeps since I am more in tune with the time zone and can usually last 4-5 hours instead of the 3-4 average on the first night. The second day is a repeat of the first; usually no office calls on Sat; and I can play abit longer in each joint. Again my play ends at 4 am.
Sunday is the same except I have to pack and check out of the room in the am and I usually enjoy the dinner a bit more since my playing is over for the trip. The crowds have departed and I have to fill up and return the rental car and get back to the aiport for my red-eye home. I land the next am (Monday) and hustle home to shower, change and then into work where I agree to work late to make up for coming in late of course. A bottomless cup of coffee ensures that I can perform despite the combined affects of minimal sleep and jet lag (I am now finally on Vegas time).
I am not complaining; BJ has been very good to me but (in my experience) its alot of work and much more of a grind than most folks seem to realize. As I said above you have to get the hours in to make any decent money and to offer long term protection from the variance; limit your expenses and most of all dont fool around if it means you will lose significant play time. I have seen about 5 shows in about 15 yrs of going to Vegas and once made the mistake of sleeping through a Don Rickles show with front row seats (big mistake but I wanted to be fresh to play after the show). Don made it clear that he was not pleased. As for lounging at the pool; I have gone whole years without unpacking my bathing suit although I always bring it just in case. Anyhow I wonder how many folks woudl be interested in advantage play if my account graced the books instead of much what I read.
thanks for listening!
wong out
thanks, Ian, for finally coming clean
Posted by John Lewis on 18-Feb-2004 23:32:47 (#6708)
I'm sure this post has been cathartic for you.
Hey, still love your books. Looking forward to "Turning the Tables Weekdays in Topeka."
And Go, Jayhawks.
Tolly Ho.
Re: thanks, Ian, for finally coming clean
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Feb-2004 04:50:52 (#6712)
I don't think so ...
Ian posts under his name at bj21.com, and I am sure if he posted here, he would use his name as well.
--Mayor
You're probably right.
Posted by John Lewis on 19-Feb-2004 07:59:37 (#6719)
Mayor,
You're probably right.
Actually, I'm a fan of Ian's, enjoy his writings. He occasionally posts on Don's Domain, by the way, as well as BJ21. But after a couple of glasses of wine last night the thought that he was in truth a career man enduring grueling schedules to get play in seemed pretty funny.
And I have to hand it to wongout, he's dedicated. His post was an interesting one.
-- JL
Mayor, Have you met Mr. Andersen? *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 19-Feb-2004 15:48:24 (#6725)
Re: Mayor, Have you met Mr. Andersen?
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Feb-2004 20:28:43 (#6731)
Nope ...
Then again, as I have discovered many times over the years, he may have met me 8-) Top advantage players have this way of telling me that they saw me at such-and-such a place, but I didn't see them.
It is a small community. It has some oddballs, but for the most part the people are intelligent, articulate, interesting, and many are even nice.
--Mayor
Re: Mayor, Have you met Mr. Andersen?
Posted by wongout on 19-Feb-2004 21:54:53 (#6733)
Nope - not Anderson and not (I think) an oddball either.
The point I was trying to make was that to make any real money at this game you need to focus on getting the hours in and to take a disciplined and businesslike approach to the game. If you want to play with an edge, have fun, and goof around thats ok but be careful that it doesnt distract you from your main goal (what-ever that is).
My game is complicated by my desire to maintain a high ev/expense ratio and to play during the best times for my situation. As a result it makes for many hectic trips but that is my choice and part of a plan designed to maximize the yearly profits. Obviously to each his own.
wong out
Not Good
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Feb-2004 17:27:36 (#6763)
You should be able to spot them before they spot you. But Ian does wear disguises if I am not mistaken. And Cellini says wearing shades in a casino is a sure tip off. Lose the shades Eliot, and show of those baby blues...smile
played beside Wong
Posted by eyesfor21 on 22-Feb-2004 11:14:44 (#6768)
it was a while back,
but I knew who he was right away but did not give it away.
He was calm cool and collective and did not really go for
it at all,maybe he was testing the waters. Many say he does not play much at all,but it was him
he suddenly left when my friend split tens and then again,with a
six showing he ended up with 20,20,21,20,nice pop, but
I guess potential heat scared the wong master.
Re: thanks, Ian, for finally coming clean
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 19-Feb-2004 12:00:08 (#6723)
Very funny John, lol.
Re: BJ Trips and Published Books
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Feb-2004 05:55:27 (#6714)
Yours is one very valid philosophy of advantage play. But advantage play to me is just like any other kind of work in that it doesn't matter how much money you make if you don't get to enjoy it. So when I go to play, I eat when I'm hungry, sleep when I'm tired, and if I feel like doing something else more than playing blackjack, I do it. Otherwise it will present an added and avoidable distraction. Blackjack tables are there 24 hours a day, 365 days a year and they will still be there when I am ready.
Also you may want to rethink your practice of playing without proper sleep. I've learned my lesson as an engineer about working without sleep and how counterproductive it can be. You make mistakes and the worst part is you never know it, you just reap the results.
Great Points! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 19-Feb-2004 15:45:25 (#6724)
Re: BJ Trips and Published Books
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Feb-2004 07:03:55 (#6715)
Nice report. I know you see the game differently than the other player does, but he could be playing a different game and at much higher levels at places that comp you for betting more than $10 a hand.
One thing I find about mose trip reports is that it gets too much into how the players feelings with little mention of the actual rules of the game, ie 6/5 S17 DOA DAS24hands, table min, max, heat. Not too much info like the time you where at the location so that surveillance can't figure out who you are. Cuz they are everywhere according to Cellini. Never underestimate your opponents, and respect them, because their profession is as important as we think ours is.
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