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what to do
Posted by Ken count on 14-Mar-2004 07:39:59 (#7123)
My friend is a member of the lions club and they started a casino night he knows I play alot of black jack so he calls me and
invites me down. I played a little but(1 hour broke even)
did not play much because of the rule of dealer wins push exept 21
the rules are
6 deck
dealer wins push exept 21(21 against 21 is a push)
d s 17
resplit up to 4 times
resplit aces
double on any thing
here is the kicker
pen was about 90%(somtimes they would only cut off about half deck)
2 min 20 max
what can you do to get over the push thing exept not play
what turned me off so quick was a couple of time the count called for big bet I would get 20 but so wouyld the dealer I get 19
they would get 19
The travel is 10 minutes from house and they will be having this
2 times a month so I figured it might be worth trying to
figure out
Re: what to do
Posted by feep on 14-Mar-2004 11:17:11 (#7130)
Wong in when the count is > +4 and there are an extra two aces per deck.
Feep
Re: what to do
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Mar-2004 11:20:23 (#7131)
Is this legal?
I don't know, but I would be curious to find out.
I don't see how it could be...
Posted by SammyBoy on 14-Mar-2004 12:10:17 (#7133)
I agree with the others, this is unplayable. It would have to be double exposure for me to even think about playing and even then I'm not sure it would be worth it.
They usually call it 'Casino Night'
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 14-Mar-2004 20:45:45 (#7146)
It's legal if your playing for points that are redeemable for prizes at the end of the play session. Each person who stays to the end will have the opportunity to enter a bidding contest against the other people who have accumulated points also. The prizes are donated by businesses in the near vicinity, so they get some name exposure. The buy-in $ is usually given to certain announced charitable organizations.
The dealers at these fundraisers are not pros. They just donate their efforts for fun and the cause. You can clean house on their mistakes sometimes. Sometimes they give you extra unearned points if they like you. Many people leave early but still have a few points. Most of those people just throw them in the trash when exiting. I noticed this and got some extra points given to me while I was getting me some coffee during one of my wong-outs.
My brother and I once combined our points during the bidding contest. We walked out with about $650 worth of good prizes. The food was free too. My bro had $20 worth of buy-in. I had 40.
Hmmmm, my wheels are starting to turn. I just got myself an idea for a sideline legal business opportunity. ;-)
SB
p.s. You can spread your bets from min to max 'til the cows come home.
Also, I had better rules when I played; SD, DA2 H17 DAS 3 splits/4 hands & no RSA.
Re: They usually call it 'Casino Night'
Posted by Ken count on 14-Mar-2004 21:50:13 (#7147)
This casino night was for money cashed in for chips at the table and
cashed them in at the bar when I left.Another thing was the spread
$2 min $20 max I wish they would at least do 40 max you could sit out as many hands as you want and not lose your spot.Nobody watching table
you could do what you wante I split tens against a dealer 10 and nobody even blinked an eye. The dealer was making mistakes
the best one was splitting aces and getting more than one card on each
that lasted about 20 minutes till on of the players said wait you cant give him another card then another player tells him shhh it helps us
the drunk loud mouth says I wont to play by the rules When I left
about a hour later that guy was down over $300 and saying this is one of the
luckiest dealers I ever saw and asking moose mebers for a new dealer
all in all it was fun
Re: They usually call it 'Casino Night'
Posted by Cyrano on 15-Mar-2004 02:12:25 (#7152)
A frat at my college did this a few years back. They said it's "fund-raising". Supposedly, under that guise, many things become legal.
Re: They usually call it 'Casino Night'
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 16-Mar-2004 17:17:32 (#7185)
Here in Ohio, an organization is allowed to have two Casino Night events per year for "charity" purposes. The dealers are not allowed to be compensated, and I'm sure many other restrictions exist to do it legally.
There were a couple of organizers here who just got in big trouble. I have been to both of their events.
One person ran a website with a list of all the "Charities" that were holding events run by him. He even supplied the dealers, and I'm sure they were probably getting paid. He ran a special once where ties pushed for the first few hours of the event. (After 45 minute drive I got there to find $2 to $10 shoes, all tables too full to wong...Grrr!) Anyhow, he effectively ran a traveling casino in the Akron, OH area for quite some time before they finally busted him. He was keeping much of the profit.
The other one was having matchplay coupons printed on local ATM recipts. His dealers were obviously recruits, though. I checked this one out because of the coups. The dealer I had was pushing all ties(he wasn't supposed to). I had a couple of $10 matchplays and was betting $2 per hand. He was only discounting the matchplay when I lost(or maybe it was when I won, I can't remember now). But, I do remember making a few bucks off that one.
Awile back, before I learned to count, there was a couple of charity tables at a Fourth of July festival. The kid who was dealing felt bad for a some old ladies who were losing. So, shortly after I sat down, he started to give hints as to what the hole card was. I got some bucks out of this situation, too. I showed up the following two years after that. I found the same kid dealing both years, but he was hardly as generous.
So there can be opportunities at these things. It's just not standard stuff.
Hey, I got it. Try telling the dealer that, in Vegas, they will tell you the hole card if you ask!
-Felix
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7127)
not sure
Posted by Ken Count on 14-Mar-2004 12:04:35 (#7132)
As in being legal Im not sure but there are a couple of elks and moose loges in Md doing this so I guess its O K but this one was close so I thought I would see what it had to offer I read some where that the dealer wins push was unbeatable but with only about a half deck or less cut off and Ok rules
I thought there might be a slight advantage
New to AP
Posted by Marko on 15-Mar-2004 12:58:11 (#7160)
I have been playing BS for some time but now I have decided to move up to AP. I am using the KO system in a 2 deck game, DOA, DAS, S17. But what I am wanting is advice from more experenced AP's. What can I expect to gain by adding an Ace side count into the system?
Re: New to AP
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 15-Mar-2004 14:32:11 (#7163)
Not very much.
You would probably be better off by doing one or more of these things:
1) Learning to turn your KO into a true count system of TKO.
2) Building your bankroll to decrease your risk of ruin.
3) Working on your 'act' so you can get your bigger bankroll working into a bigger spread.
4) Adding more playing departures to your TKO system, like DD on 10 vs T DD s19 vs 6,5 DD 8 vs 5,6 etc, etc.
World Series of Blackjack
Posted by John on 15-Mar-2004 22:34:20 (#7169)
Did anyone watch? Anthony Curtis was the first to leave and the blind woman ended up winning at the table. She didn't win it all but is advancing. Her and +++++++, the guy who believes he can read what the dealer has by staring at her face, finished 1st and 2nd, respectively. The commentators were making fun of him. Grosjean finished 4th or 5th. All I have to say is, that girl is no Shana Hiatt.
Re: World Series of Blackjack
Posted by marathon slim on 16-Mar-2004 11:09:52 (#7177)
I watched it. Thought it would be interesting. Actually I became bored after a while. Really not as exciting as WSOP.
Reverse finishing order:
curtis
connie
grosjean
konik
blind lady.
May take another look next week but I doubt it.
Re: World Series of Blackjack
Posted by SNOWBANK on 17-Mar-2004 13:32:30 (#7216)
WHEN IS THIS ON???
Re: World Series of Blackjack
Posted by Hollywood on 18-Mar-2004 01:51:12 (#7227)
Monday nights @ 10 pm on GSN (Game Show network) repeating randomly throughout the week
Episode #2 is this Monday nite the 22nd
-hollywood dave.
World Series of Blackjack Schedule
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Mar-2004 09:05:29 (#7230)
Here are the schedules for each episode. Times are Eastern Time:
Episode 1: James Grosjean, Connie Desimone, Regina Guzior, Anthony Curtis, Michael Konik
3/15 at 10pm repeating at 11pm, 1am, and 2am
3/16 at 11pm repeating at 2am
3/17 at 5pm
3/18 at 9pm repeating at 12am
3/19 at 7pm
3/20 at 2pm
3/21 at 5pm
Episode 2: Joanna "Queen of Spades", Kenny Einiger, Dave Stann, Susan Pikor, MIT Mike
3/22 at 10pm repeating at 1am
3/23 at 11pm repeating at 2am
3/27 at 2pm
Episode 3:Bradley Peterson, Micky Rosa, Ashwin Patel, Bobby J, Cat Hulbert
3/29 at 10pm repeating at 1am
3/30 at 11pm repeating at 2am
4/3 at 2pm
Episode 4: Previn Mankodi, Ann Van Dyke, Stanford Wong, Nick Dillon, Jimmy Pine
4/5 at 10pm repeating at 1am
4/6 at 11pm repeating at 2am
4/10 at 2pm
Episode 5: Ken Smith, Skip Samad, Jane Gamble, Richard Munchkin, Frank DeRocco
4/12 at 10pm repeat at 1am
4/13 at 11pm repeat at 2am
4/17 2pm
The Wild Card episode will air at the following times:
4/19 at 10pm repeating at 1am
4/20 at 11pm repeating at 2am
4/24 at 2pm
Re: World Series of Blackjack Schedule
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 18-Mar-2004 09:23:12 (#7232)
What network please?
I don't understand how these people can play without being incognito and having their faces covered.
Re: World Series of Blackjack
Posted by Grift on 17-Mar-2004 11:23:41 (#7212)
episode #3 airs 3-29,3-30,and 4-3 and will have as one of the players micky rosa who was for some time the leader of the mit blackjack team that the book bringing down the house is about.
Re: World Series of Blackjack
Posted by Smallfry on 22-Mar-2004 18:55:33 (#7340)
If Micky Rosa is playing they are letting anyone play
It was my understanding he is on the first page of Griffin's List
I can only assume they let in known AP's play in this, watch who they talk to then kick them also
Smallfry
Re: World Series of Blackjack
Posted by Hollywood on 25-Mar-2004 01:12:03 (#7399)
I played in it also, and let me tell you -- we were all very aware that there was constant surveillance as we traveled around the casino -- not only to prevent us from playing any cash games (actually it was in the contract we signed that any potential winnings would be forfeit if we played cash games after being advised not to), but our pictures were being taken constantly for 'promotional purposes' -- yeah right. Griffin now has about a million photos and surveillance camera shots of all of us, enough to fill out our files in The Book nicely...
-hollywood dave.
How many index #'s?
Posted by Cyrano on 16-Mar-2004 21:31:28 (#7196)
Curious to know how many index numbers you all play with. I use 56.. all the ones between -3 and +9... for my system and my type of game.
25
Posted by Tom on 17-Mar-2004 01:33:53 (#7204)
but some will tell you learning anything more than the great illustrious 18 is a waste of time,I disgree.
Re: How many index #'s?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Mar-2004 11:31:55 (#7214)
I've done the math, and you have to calculate the value of your own indices based on the game you play and your spread. Even the penetration will make a difference because it will affect how often the very high counts come up.
Some of the split and DD indices increase your profit by only a few pennies, while increasing your risk vastly because they involve you putting out another big bet. I was able to increase my BJ attack desirability index by leaving out certain indices, rather than playing additional ones. If you tell me all the parameters of your game- count, rules, number of decks, penetration, and the spread you use, I can post an example of the index values.
Re: How many index #'s?
Posted by Cyrano on 17-Mar-2004 14:05:27 (#7218)
How do you calc it? I used CVindex to generate my indices and then simply used CVCX to widdle it down to something I felt comfortable with. Is there another function that lets you see the values of each index? BTW, for the spread I'm using, full indices' EV was $17.66 with a Score of 139.58; with my indices, the EV was $16.41 with a Score of 123.64, and with the Ill 18, it was $14.98 with a Score of 105.44.
My game is SD pitch with 1-6 spread, Downtown Vegas rules and about 60% pen. using KO.
Re: How many index #'s?
Posted by Ken count on 17-Mar-2004 15:28:26 (#7219)
Compare these and see if some of the numbers are the same
// KO 1 DECK RISK AVERSE INDEX CHART
// 65% Penetration
// Indices generated by SBA STRATEGY GENERATOR, Version 5.0.3
// When Two numbers given, first is for H17 game / second for S17
// When "A" Follows number, add one for S17 game
// NOTE: the indices are reversal for:
// splitting 8,8 vs. T, 8,8 vs. 9, 3,3 vs. 7, and late surrender 17 vs. A up
// Buy insurance if running count >= 3
// 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T A (Dealer's up cards)
// hard standing table (stand if >= number, hit if < number)
4A 4 2 1 0/2 H H H H 10A // hard 12
1A 1 0 -1 -2A H H H H 7/9 // hard 13
0 -1 -2 -2 -4A 10 12A 10 6 5/7 // hard 14
-2 -3 -4 -5 -6A 10 11 8 4 4/7 // hard 15
-4 -5 -6 -7 -7A 11 9 5 2 3/6 // hard 16
H H H H H S S S S -3 // hard 17
// soft standing table (stand if >= number, hit if < number)
S S S S S S S H H H/0 // soft 18
// hard doubling table (double if >= number)
14 11 9 8 9A H H H H H // hard 7
10 8 6 5 5 12 H H H H // hard 8
3 2 0 -1 -2 5 8 H H H // hard 9
-3 -4 -4 -5 -6 -2 -1 1 5 3 // hard 10
-5 -6 -6 -7 -7 -4 -3 -1 -1 0/1 // hard 11
// soft doubling table (double if >= number)
10 7 3A 0 -1 H H // A 2
11 8 1A -1 -3 H H // A,3
11 7 1 -2 -3 H H // A,4
10 6A 1 -2 -5 H H // A,5
5 0 -2 -5 -6 H H // A,6
4A 1A -2 -3 -5A 13 H // A,7
7 5 4 2 1A 11 H // A,8
7 7 6 5 5 10 H/13 // A,9
9 8 7 6 6 S/12 S // A,T
// splitting table for DAS (split if >= number, except reversals)
0 -1 -2 -3 -4 SP 10 H H H // 2,2
-3 -3 -4 -6 -5A 13 H H H H // 3,3
H 7A 4A 0 -1A H H H H H // 4,4
N E V E R S P L I T 5S - T R E A T A S 10 // 5,5
1 0 -1 -3 -3 -6A H H H H // 6,6
-2 -3 -4 -4 -4A Sp 1 H H H // 7,7
Sp Sp Sp Sp Sp Sp Sp 11/10 4 -1/Sp // 8,8
0 0 -1 -2 -2 6 -4 -4 H 2 // 9,9
8 7 6 5 5 9 12 S S S // T,T
-6 -6 -7 -7 -8 -5 -5 -5 -5 -5A // A,A
// splitting table for no DAS (split if >= number, except reversals)
8 2A 0 -2 -4A Sp H H H H // 2,2
9 H -4 Sp/-6 Sp 7 H H H H // 3,3
H H H H H H H H H H // 4,4
N E V E R S P L I T 5S - T R E A T A S 10 // 5,5
3 2 0 -1 -1 Sp H H H H // 6,6
-2 -2 -3 -4 -4A Sp H H H H // 7,7
Sp Sp Sp Sp Sp Sp Sp 7 3 -1/Sp // 8,8
1 1 0 -1 -1A 7 -4 -4 S 2A // 9,9
8 7 6 5 5 9 12 S S S // T,T
-6 -6A -7 -7 -8 -5 -5 -5 -5 -5A // A,A
// Late surrender table (surrender if >= number)
H H 9 9 H // surrender hard 12
H H 8 6 7 // surrender hard 13
9 8 5 3A 3A // surrender hard 14
9 7 4 2 0/2 // surrender hard 15
9 5 2 -1 -3/-1 // surrender hard 16
S 11 9 8 1/-2 // surrender hard 17
// Surrender 8,8 vs. dealer's T if running count >= 2
Re: How many index #'s?
Posted by Cyrano on 17-Mar-2004 20:20:34 (#7223)
Strange.. I got different numbers than you:
Dealer card:
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 X A
My
17 -10
16 5 6 2 -1 2
15 -10 7 9 5 1 3
I have more numbers, but this should show you that our stats not even in the same ballpark. Strange... I'll run mine again.
--------------
// hard standing table (stand if >= number, hit if < number)
4A 4 2 1 0/2 H H H H 10A // hard 12
1A 1 0 -1 -2A H H H H 7/9 // hard 13
0 -1 -2 -2 -4A 10 12A 10 6 5/7 // hard 14
-2 -3 -4 -5 -6A 10 11 8 4 4/7 // hard 15
-4 -5 -6 -7 -7A 11 9 5 2 3/6 // hard 16
H H H H H S S S S -3 // hard 17
Re: How many index #'s?
Posted by Cyrano on 22-Mar-2004 23:51:54 (#7344)
Yep, software glitch.. your numbers are awfully close to my second run. Thanks!
Re: How many index #'s?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Mar-2004 19:27:44 (#7222)
OK, thew first problem I see is that using indexes for the true counts from -3 to +9 is NOT enough for a SD or DD game. That's barely enough for a shoe game and a level 1 count. I would go at least to +/- 16. People leave out the really low counts because a shoe player Wongs out for those, but in the SD environment you can't just walk away from the table every time you see a TC=-4 count.
The way you calculate the index cash values using CVData is as follows:
Run a sim using full indices and one using Basic Strategy only; same spread, same playing conditions. Now in the Statistics/Hands/Win Rate screen, you'll see all the possible hands vs. dealer upcard and the money you've won/lost per hour on each. There will be a different table for both the full index player and the Basic Strategy player.
Now here comes the boring part: make an Excel file with a row for every index in the full indices, identify it with the the player's hand, the dealer's hand, the action in question, and the true count at which it is played. In the two columns next to it, enter the Win Rate for the BS player, and then the Win Rate for the full index player. Subtract those two columns, and you will have the cash value of each index. Sort them in descending order by this cash value.
Surprise. There will be 10-20 at the bottom of the pile that have a negative cash value, and 5-10 more that have zero cash value. No explanation needed why you don't want those in your arsenal. But you will find a bunch more that involve doubling your maximum bet, such as in a DD or a split, and your expected cash value for this is all of 10 cents per hour! That is totally unacceptable for anyone with a limited bankroll, which I presume is all of us.
So here is a good compromise for determining what indices to play: You can play all of the hit/stand ones that have a cash value greater than zero. Even the ones with very low value involve no extra risk and make your play appear inconsistent to the pit, a value in itself. Unlikely anyone in the pit is familiar with these obscure playing strategies. In a game with surrender you can also play all of the surrender ones.
Now the DD and split ones, I'd recommend playing only the ones that have a significant cash value, especially at the higher counts when you have a max bet out there. Sure, DD 9 vs. 2, and 9 vs. 7, (and 11 vs. A for shoe players), DD A8 vs 5 or 6, and split 10 indexes if you don't feel those are too much of a giveaway as a counter. But most of them aren't worth it. You will probably find yourself using no more than a dozen DD and split indices after you analyze them in this way, and even if you play all of the useful hit/stand ones, you're going to be playing no more than 30-40 total.
Excellent advice!
Posted by Cyrano on 17-Mar-2004 20:23:10 (#7224)
Thanks! This is exactly what I need to figure out how to get the most bang for my efforts! Management, would you consider putting this in the "best posts"?
How good is Don's Domain?
Posted by John on 16-Mar-2004 22:34:23 (#7199)
Hey, is anyone a member of Don's Domain over at that other website? I just wondered if it is as good as some people say it is. I just wonder what could possibly be said that could make you that much of a better player. I got problem with paying to be a member of a forum. I want an unbiased opinion.
Re: How good is Don's Domain?
Posted by The Mayor on 16-Mar-2004 23:30:57 (#7202)
You can click on the "preview" option on their site and get an idea about the frequence of posts and the subject matter.
I was a member for about 3 weeks before I dropped it.
--Mayor
Re: How good is Don's Domain?
Posted by Tom on 17-Mar-2004 01:27:11 (#7203)
Why a member for only 3 weeks? The membership last 3 months.
I tried it for 3 months,not much traffic there, but my questions were answered very clearly. That's more than what i can say about the free pages, where if I ask an intelligent question or make a good comment, it seems to be ignored. However, if anyone makes a dumb post,they get answers right up the #ss.
Tom
Here's the deal...
Posted by bfbagain on 17-Mar-2004 11:27:16 (#7213)
Free is good. Let's get that out of the way. There are good "free" sites, and this is one of them.
Paying is also good, when value is => cost. This can be subjective, but usually not. An illstration:Linux is excellent software, and in most cases, "free." Windows XP Pro is excellent (objective opinion here) software, and is clearly "NOT" free. Depending on what the use is for, and how productive you expect to be, will and should be your determining factor in which choice will be more beneficial to you. For example, the cost of re-training a workgroup to navigate linux, after this group is already proficient with windows must be taken into consideration, as well as the expected future enhanced productivity. A very hard task to accomplish and companies wrestle with this quandry quarterly, if not daily.
Contrast this to knowledge. Specifically BJ/math/expertise and the corresponding access to this knowledge. My guess is that if you're a counter, you became one first through the purchase of a book (cost) that required learning (cost in time) and then put into production (cost and expected return), which = ROI (return on investment).
Now to the original (and not forgotten) question.
I would venture that some of the real benefits to GC (bj21) lies in the "ACCESS" to the people that are willing to provide knowledge/expertise for "free" (cost savings).
Think about this for a second. Successful counters place large amounts of money on the line with extremely low advantages, so that every ounce of edge that can be squeezed is taken advantage of. Shouldn't that be your approach as well?
How many companies, as well as individuals, subscribe to trade publications? Now, if all the people at GC, or DD frequently visited and shared their expertise at free sites like this one, then no, there would be no need to pay as you're already getting all the benefits with no cost.
However, if you're serious about extracting every ounce of advantage to increase your edge and positive expectation, then it's a no brainer.
I visit this site (thanks Mayor) as often as the ones I pay for, for that very same reason. You never know where you'll learn something new or extra. It's the price I pay. Now, if cost is a larger issue, and it can be (all new counters are really unsure if this really works despite their protestations to the contrary) then learn all you can for free, but at some point, you'll have to start taking advance courses, and we all know that doesn't come for free.
cheers
bfb
I agree....
Posted by suicyco maniac on 17-Mar-2004 19:27:00 (#7221)
There is not a lot of traffic but my questions are usually very promply answered and there are many great posts in the archives as well as the archived chats. like most of the books I have read if I learn just one thing from it it is worth the price....SM
Nice Guys are Free
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Mar-2004 08:54:04 (#7228)
You might find that when you get on a free board and ask questions like which is the best count etc, you will not hear much from the true experts. You can make contact with some exceptional BJ players that are on every board out there, paid or not. Most of these guys are great guys and are just as likely to answer a private message from you as long as you are serious and don't expect them to become your email buddy. You don't ask Einstein how to add 2+2, so don't ask lame questions to the experts. Cut your teeth here or on any free board, gather some big name emails for your collection, and treat your mentors with respect and courtesy and you will be surprised how much amazing information is only an email away.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7200)
Re: How good is Don's Domain?
Posted by John on 16-Mar-2004 22:58:23 (#7201)
I have a hard time believing that there is that much newly discovered information related to blackjack. I would be interested in about two topics and that would be shuffle tracking and ace sequencing. I haven't heard that those topics are in blackjack attack so I'm not interested at this point. I'm not interested in psychologically winning over the pit bosses because here in Indiana, they really don't kick out card counters. I've never seen one kicked out. I 've never seen anyone backed off. I believe that a few know that I count and one actually encouraged me to play more when I was winning. Besides, I'm not sure you can really teach someone to be good at ace sequencing or shuffle tracking, you either have it or you don't. I haven't played enough to determine where I stand yet but I'm going back to wonging if that is any indicator.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7207)
GC
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Mar-2004 08:09:49 (#7208)
I've heard it said on many occasions that the archive is worth it. If you do join copy the archive for your later reference.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7225)
Re: How many index #'s?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Mar-2004 09:03:23 (#7229)
Some indices are set so you lose LESS, like 8,8 vs 10 up. So instead of losing .50 you could only be losing .42. A,A vs 6 is a + money play.
The answer to the question is found in how much you will be playing. If you are going to play full time DD, learn Hi Opt II (or Zen for the Ace shy guy) and all of the indices. If you are a weekend warrior, Hi Low with the Ill 18 is fine.
Re: How many index #'s?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Mar-2004 12:52:35 (#7237)
The reason why some indexes end up with a negative cash value is pobably due to the errors in deck estimation. If an index is weak, so weak that it earns you barely over zero, screw up just a little bit on your TC calculation and it will lose money for you. I used half deck rounding on my sims, and just that is probably enough to bring you into negative territory.
Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Mar-2004 11:47:52 (#7233)
Your opinion on this is sought,
As you know, I am interested in educating casino maganement at the highest levels about the real risks that card counters pose, and about ways they could improve their drop/hold, while offering better games for all. For years I have held as my guiding principle our rights as advantage players, and have taken many actions to support this cause.
I think the approach currently being used by the advantage community (complain loudly when something goes away or changes for the worse -- litigate sometimes) is not making much of a difference. This is too bad, but true. The casino lobby is powerful, and our voice is very quiet compared to the shouting that billions of dollars in revenues create.
I have the opportunity to work for a company that consults directly with casinos. My specialty would be table games. This would put me in touch with those people who are in the position to effect the changes we all desire, and my goal would be to educate them about the real dangers of advantage players (or lack of danger, which is my opinion), pointing to the bottom line equation.
My belief is that advantage players have a right to play, I have always held that. I am considering the possibility that I could have a real effect on this by taking the offered position. My goal would be to educate management on what is really costing them $$$ (for example, time spent shuffling because of poor penetration).
I view this as an opportunity to make a real difference where it counts.
What do you think?
Thanks for your feedback.
--Mayor
Re: Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by revereman on 18-Mar-2004 12:11:42 (#7235)
I think you're a smart guy who apparently still sees the world through rose-colored glasses. Telling the pit at Chumash that you were a cardcounter but couldn't hurt them didn't work. Although you were quite sketchy about the details of your new potential position, you will not be able to convince casino management that cardcounters won't hurt them or that their countermeasures cost too much. I certainly agree with you that cardcounters should be able to use their brains to beat the casinos at their own game. However, just as insurance companies are not in the business of providing insurance (they are in the business of making money), casinos are not in the gambling business (they are also in the business of making money). Casinos allow us to play until they think we are a real threat to their bottom line (threshholds certainly vary from casino to casino). I think most casinos and casino chains are highly profitable doing what they are doing. They really don't have much incentive to change. They can offer CSM's, Spanish 21, etc. and will continue to make money at these games unless people stop playing them. They continually test the waters to see how much they can get away with (taking people's money faster). Until people stop playing (like in the days after Beat the Dealer), the casinos will continue to push the envelope. Most casinos (but not all) are not afraid of red chippers winning $200, but they do not want those players graduating to black chip players and forming teams. Good luck Eliot Quixote.
Re: Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Mar-2004 12:50:05 (#7236)
I think the casinos know how little a threat we pose, but there is something else in the works.
It's pride. Very few of these casino employees can count cards like we do, and they see us making more money than they do at their crappy jobs and it bothers them. Hence the rough treatment, calling us "scumbags", etc. A counter walking away with $1000 seems to bother them more than a slot player winning $100,000. What bothers them is that we are smarter than they are.
On a different tangent, if you are going to go into the business of consulting with casinos on table games, why not invent a new game? They seem to jump at these garbage games being promoted these days. Let's design a good one. But here's the catch, one that can be advantage played, but by an elite few. Something that's considerably harder than BJ card counting. Now if they know that only 1% of the population will be able to beat the game, they'll have nothing to fear because the other 99% can't. But lots of people who can't will show up and try to prove they can, thus the casino will make money. They can even openly invite AP's to play, and show everybody "how easy it is to win", on the condition that we work alone and do not help anyone at the table.
It's a win/win/win. A win for the casinos with the extra revenue. A win for the public because they will be getting a fair game and a chance to exercise and devlop their mental agility, and a win for us because we will be winning.
New games
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Mar-2004 13:35:56 (#7238)
I have several ideas for such games ...
Unfortunately, that's a hugely competitive market, and to sell a game you need (at the very least) one of the $10k spots at the annual gaming show in Vegas, then you need to market it hard, compete with 1000 other people marketing their games, then provide all the on-site support for the game, and lastly, be ready for the lawsuits when your game doesn't do what you "promised" in the contract.
The best option is to hook up with an established company (e.g. ShuffleMaster) but then they just give you a low paying "research" job and they keep all the profits. ShuffleMaster now owns all the rights for "3 card poker," for example.
Another company that's worth a try if you have an idea is "Galaxy Gaming." They are the ones who put out the highly successful "Lucky Ladies" and they have a new game they are trying to promote. Watch and wait for that new game ... "Texas Shootout" -- let me know if it comes your way (http://www.galaxygaming.com/). I doubt it.
--Mayor
Re: New games
Posted by Strider on 18-Mar-2004 18:07:50 (#7242)
We've got Texas shootout in my local casinos. Does anybody know a site which has calculated the house advantage and the odds? Do you think it can be beat? I couldn't find any webpages about that game and the wizard of odds doesn't have the game on it's site either.
Texas Shootout...
Posted by suicyco maniac on 18-Mar-2004 23:03:18 (#7250)
Is already starting to die a slow and painfull death...
Re: Texas Shootout...
Posted by CougIt on 19-Mar-2004 03:10:51 (#7255)
I have a sighting of the game, Eliot. Why do you ask?
Re: Texas Shootout...
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Mar-2004 10:22:53 (#7267)
I was just making the point that a lot of dumb games are pushed on casinos, and very few make it. This one, by the makers of Lucky Ladies (copyright Galaxy Gaming), is typical. I know it is in a few places, but my guess is that it will be gone within a year. I don't know what Rob Saucier (CEO of Galaxy Gaming) was thinking. He will lose a lot of money on this one by the time its all over.
By the way, some have asked if Texas Shootout is beatable by any reasonable AP strategies. I have looked at it closely, and the answer is no.
Most of the major game makers are consolodating. For slots it's IGT. For table games it's Shufflemaster. How vicious is it? Recently Shufflemaster just sold its slot interests to IGT. You want innovation, you head to one of these two companies and pitch your idea.
--Mayor
Re: New games
Posted by Geoff Hall on 20-Mar-2004 08:39:43 (#7279)
"...Unfortunately, that's a hugely competitive market, and to sell a game you need (at the very least) one of the $10k spots at the annual gaming show in Vegas, then you need to market it hard, compete with 1000 other people marketing their games, then provide all the on-site support for the game, and lastly, be ready for the lawsuits when your game doesn't do what you "promised" in the contract.
The best option is to hook up with an established company (e.g. ShuffleMaster) but then they just give you a low paying "research" job and they keep all the profits. ShuffleMaster now owns all the rights for "3 card poker," for example..."
... ... ... ... ... ...
Hi Mayor
Creating a new game is a time-consuming and expensive project and very few games become successful (compared to the number that ere submitted). It's a little like trying to write a 'Best Seller'.
As far as approaching a company like 'ShuffleMaster' is concerned, then it depends on what stage your game is at as to what deal to have offered to you. For example, if you have an idea, which is untested in the marketplace, then you will likely just get a 'research' fee even if they are interested in the concept. However, if your game is installed in, say, 20 casinos in the USA, then you will get a 'buyout' fee, which can be quite large. You are then faced with a decision as to whether it will be more finacially beneficial for you to sell or to keep the ongoing license fees. You can also offer the rights for a company to sell on your behalf and still retain a % of the license fee.
The rewards, apart from the obvious financial compensation, is to see something that you have created being played (and hopefully enjoyed) in a large casino - it's truly an exhilarating feeling.
Finally, 'ShuffleMaster' do not own ALL rights to '3-card poker' as the inventor kept the UK rights.
Best regards
Geoff
proof of the pudding is at hand...
Posted by gehrig on 18-Mar-2004 13:46:25 (#7239)
examine the holds at the player friendly 21 games in lv to assess their value. does the s.d./das fiesta game generate more hold at the 21 games than before (w/o the das) ? did the s.d./das game at slots generate higher holds than the current, gelded game ? recall that zender was a proponent of low stakes, counter friendly games. yars before, it was the castaways.
perhaps the latest gsn 21 tournaments, drafting the holdem game tournaments, will produce a renaissance. no doubt that the holdem tournaments have bulged attendance at casino poker rooms. perhaps with legions of newbie 21 players sucked into the game by the gsn series, the joints will become genuinely competitive in attracting these players.
but not likely, since corporate driven businesses seem to lose hands on, personal operation. those players who have been around awhile, recall casino owners/"pitboss" staff walking among the players, handing out comps, tapping out dealers then declaring automatic dealer busts/automatic player pays, and the like. remember the 2:1 christmas week snappers at the horseshoe ? those events are long remembered by patrons.
today, the player is blown off or directed to the automatic comp issuing machine in the hallway next to the atm.
Re: Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by SammyBoy on 18-Mar-2004 16:07:41 (#7241)
I tend to agree with the other posters that say you will have no effect on casino management. But I think if it is a job that interests you and will improve you personal bottomline then you should go for it. Best of luck and please keep us posted.
Re: Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by hinoon on 18-Mar-2004 19:00:16 (#7243)
Here's my thinking on this subject:
You are a good and astute judge of character. So firstly, I would examine how comfortable YOU feel being associated with the company that has offered you the position. The fact that you've raised the issue in the public forum is pretty significant...
Second, I would be absolutely sure that by accepting this position you aren't accidentally curtailing your own freedoms...as a player and as a vocal member of this community. Clearly you are well versed in discretion...but at some point, by consulting with a casino, someone at said casino is going to throw out the topic of proprietary information. You don't want to be put into a position where your ability to discuss strategy with players conflicts with the fiscal interests of a company that could sue the roof off of your head.
I think that it would be beneficial towards your goals to act as a consultant...but I would do so in a very careful manner.
I personally think that the route towards changing casinos is via the general gambling population. The casinos KNOW that counters are not a significant threat to them...but as long as they promote the romantic stereotype that lumps AP players with cheaters...then Joe Public will go along with the measures they take against us. If ploppies feel cheated by the measures that casinos take in the name of "fair play" then they won't stand idle. It's a lot more work, I know...but casinos have yet to make decisions with integrity and fair-play as their guiding forces.
Surely you have been offered similar positions in the past...and have until now, refused them. If this offer is different enough to merit further consideration, then I don't doubt that you are giving it serious thought.
Other than those concerns...I don't see why not...you have a very public and clear opinion concerning fair-play and player's rights. Anyone asking you to work with them must know this. And hey...it can't HURT to have your logic and integrity tossed into the decision-making process of the "other-side".
I say protect yourself and proceed with caution, but by all means...proceed.
thoughts okay..
Posted by eyesfor21 on 18-Mar-2004 19:32:47 (#7244)
Casinos must realize that counters will benefit the game:
-attracting the working guy that skims through a book
once knows a thing or two but still gets wiped,,
-attracting more players to the game,thus more cash for the
casino
-they should also pay dealers for speed thus more
hands per hour and more cash for all
-dealers should have to be clocked with a timer-if your too slow
you FAIL.
- casinos should realize few counters have the discpline nor
the bankroll to pose any threat at all,and if they win and
day or two odds will be even for them they give it back.(remember
your poll only few made cash for the year)our edge is so small
many counters do not realize that it take a lot more
to win that a high count thus they fail.
Re: Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by Slowhand on 18-Mar-2004 20:37:25 (#7246)
I agree.....proceed cautiously, but proceed. But, be prepared to deal with accusations of turning to 'the dark side', even if they are absolutely baseless accusations. It is a very intriguing opportunity, indeed.
Re: Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Mar-2004 20:52:16 (#7247)
This thread is the most pointed towards my concerns.
The "dark side" is already our employer! The casinos are paying us a wage (through our skill at their games).
I suppose we are all already on the dark side. Maybe it is just the "darker" side.
Working for the bad guys
Posted by LVBear584 on 18-Mar-2004 23:04:30 (#7251)
I respect your decision to open this discussion in a public forum.
You face a difficult choice. Other prominent members of the advantage player community have occasionally worked for the bad guys. While there well may be opportunities there, the price is high. It is tough to overcome the natural inclination of many people to believe you have "sold out." Some did sell out, and never returned from the dark side - Olaf Vancura and Howard Grossman come to mind. Others have done small amounts of consulting that did not conflict with their work for the player side of the tables. Some have done so without damage to their reputations, others have not been so fortunate.
One thing is clear. You cannot have it both ways at the same time. Many believe once you "cross the line," you will never been trustworthy again. Knowing you to be a person of integrity, I know you would put your best efforts towards what you believe in. Be aware, though, that you will likely be working mostly for and with people of low moral character. Sure, there are honorable people in the casino business, but not many. It is a morally bankrupt industry. With your background of decency and honesty, you will find it hard not to give full effort towards your new masters. This may involve breaking confidences you have been entrusted with from the player side. For example, you may be asked to point out and plug holes in games where some skilled players now enjoy an advantage that is not known by most casino personnel. If you do the honorable thing for your employer, you will have to point them out. But to do the honorable thing for your new employer, you will have to do the dishonorable thing of violating previous confidences. You will be in an impossible situation. How will you handle that?
It will be inevitable that you will have to stop posting on your own website, if not shut it down entirely. You will no longer be able to speak out against injustices. You will have to terminate some of your friendships and your freedom to associate with whom you choose. Casino types are not big on free speech. They are not known for treating their own people decently. Look at the way lower-level personnel, such as dealers, are routinely mistreated.
I agree that the present methods of fighting back against the bullies have been somewhat ineffective. Some progress has been made, though. There have been several large settlements in lawsuits against casinos for abuse of patrons, and more cases are pending. Casino surveillance leaders, such as Jim Goding, are openly speaking about the liability problems created by casino personnel going over the line in their mistreatment of skilled players. Some of the cases resulting from attacks against high-profile players will be going to trial soon. I expect some of this to make the national media. In the not too distant future, some heads will roll among security supervisors and casino managers who tolerate, or encourage, crimes against skilled players by their employees. Maybe for no other reason than to protect themselves from large jury awards, eventually the bean counters will see patron harassment as negative EV for the casino industry.
It is likely that the games will continue to get worse. Game conditions have been in decline for a long time, as you well know. The quality of casino personnel has been diluted by the proliferation of casinos across the nation. I doubt if one out of a hundred floor people have the skills that an average counter or other advantage player has. While this is usually good for the skilled player, it is not always good. To compensate for the many weak, poorly trained, and clueless employees, management has to resort to other measures. Cheating devices, such as Mindplay, and passive game "protection," such as shallow penetration, 6 to 5 ripoff games, etc. can be utilized with very little investment in employee training.
Casinos are losing the personal touch with their customers, but they don't care. Look at the comp-issuing machines, where there once was a smiling human being with a pen and comp slip. Casinos see their customers as nothing but chumps lining up to give their money away. And, sad to say, mostly they're right. You are not going to be able to change this mindset.
While I know your intentions are honorable, I'm sorry to say that I don't think you can make even a small dent in the cancer that's spreading. What percentage of casinos does this company consult for? What percentage of influential casino people will you have any contact with at all? What guarantees are they willing to give you that you will be properly compensated for your knowledge and skills? If they don't like what they hear from you, are you out the door? You must realize that your belief systems are not shared by many in the casino industry. You will be a lone voice in the wilderness. You will be in a hostile environment, interacting with people whose views are radically different from what you are accustomed to. It will be a strange and lonely existence.
I wish you the best whatever you decide.
Wow
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Mar-2004 23:37:48 (#7252)
Great post, LVBear. You have given me much to consider. Thanks.
Re: Wow
Posted by revereman on 19-Mar-2004 08:29:40 (#7260)
I agree that LV Bear's post was great (as usual), but are those really issues that you haven't thought of yourself? I didn't bother discussing the whole "dark side" issue in my initial response for various reasons, one being that it's so obvious. We have trusted you with much of our personal information, and like Cellini, it would be unwise of us to associate with you, despite your integrity and good intentions, if you were to take this position. I'm a firm believer in "you gotta do what you gotta do" but your credibility as a player advocate would have to be put in doubt. They surely would not be hiring you to improve conditions for AP's.
Cellini
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Mar-2004 08:56:32 (#7263)
I would trust him with my life. Why do you feel you can't trust him?
Re: Cellini
Posted by revereman on 19-Mar-2004 09:59:45 (#7265)
I would trust Cellini with your life too, Rob.
You may be privy to the reasons Cellini left and came back to and then left again the other board, but I am not. The secrecy surrounding his movements to and fro left me with a very uneasy feeling. I had corresponded with him, and have no reason to believe that he has betrayed my confidences, but that whole episode left me with a very uneasy feeling.
Re: Cellini
Posted by toddler on 19-Mar-2004 10:22:07 (#7266)
Very few know the exact details of the demise of BJFO (even I don't), but I will say this... Cellini sticks with and supports his friends to the bitter end. That is a fact. That's why Rob trusts him with his life and that's why I trust him with mine. Those who are closer to this man know of what I speak. There a valid reasons for his departures; I will not offer specifics so don't ask.
Re: Cellini
Posted by revereman on 19-Mar-2004 11:09:12 (#7272)
I have no reason to doubt what you and Rob write but I hope my reservations are understandable given the mystery surrounding his actions.
Re: Cellini
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Mar-2004 14:33:08 (#7283)
You are reacting in a tyipcal fashion which is understandable.
"I would trust Cellini with your life too, Rob."
Thank you! ;>
Rob
Re: Cellini
Posted by Slowhand on 21-Mar-2004 07:06:34 (#7305)
I concur with Toddler completely. I have also had past dealings with Cellini and trust him completely. He knows who I am, and has proven himself of the utmost integrity. There are indeed very valid reasons for his departure, and we should all wish him well.
Slowhand
Re: Cellini
Posted by toddler on 21-Mar-2004 09:52:44 (#7310)
Slowhand,
Not to sidetrack the Mayor's thread, but Cellini has always spoken well of you. Can't wait for a spin on his Big Six Wheel. {:-) Good thoughts abound.
Warmest,
toddler
Re: Working for the bad guys
Posted by Inskipp on 19-Mar-2004 06:36:53 (#7257)
I agree with the Bear.
I also think it might be very hard for an independent-thinking person such as yourself to work for a large corporation. I don't know if you have ever done it, but be advised that "Dilbert" isn't far off. Before you take such a step, look carefully at who you would be working with, and what they are really like.
Amazing Post
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Mar-2004 08:52:30 (#7262)
POM material Bear. Give yourself an extra jar of honey.
"You face a difficult choice. Other prominent members of the advantage player community have occasionally worked for the bad guys. While there well may be opportunities there, the price is high. It is tough to overcome the natural inclination of many people to believe you have "sold out." Some did sell out, and never returned from the dark side - Olaf Vancura and Howard Grossman come"
another reason to boycott the KO count.
"One thing is clear. You cannot have it both ways at the same time. Many believe once you "cross the line," you will never been trustworthy again. Knowing you to be a person of integrity, I know you would put your best efforts towards what you believe in."
Trustworthy? hehehehehe Eliot likes things his way, so these concepts of trust, integrity, etc, are all in context one minute, and out of context the next. Like woman's rights and her freedom to get an abortion. I am glad you pointed out what battles his mind will face once he switches sides. That's why his post below yours is so short. I think you opened his eyes.
"This may involve breaking confidences you have been entrusted with from the player side. For example, you may be asked to point out and plug holes in games where some skilled players now enjoy an advantage that is not known by most casino personnel. If you do the honorable thing for your employer, you will have to point them out. But to do the honorable thing for your new employer, you will have to do the dishonorable thing of violating previous confidences. You will be in an impossible situation. How will you handle that?"
Point made........15 love
"It will be inevitable that you will have to stop posting on your own website, if not shut it down entirely. You will no longer be able to speak out against injustices. You will have to terminate some of your friendships and your freedom to associate with whom you choose."
This is where I would think the Eliot will have his biggest problem. I think this job could be a steady one, but could also be a flash in the pan. They will more than likely suck you dry and toss you back to the people you have turned your back on. They may actually be targeting him, and his integrity.
"While I know your intentions are honorable, I'm sorry to say that I don't think you can make even a small dent in the cancer that's spreading."
I agree. We have a right to play, but we personally have to protect ourselves by using cover, playing short stints, etc. We are loners, and that is one of our greatest assets.
"What guarantees are they willing to give you that you will be properly compensated for your knowledge and skills? If they don't like what they hear from you, are you out the door?"
None, unless they give him a contract with an early buy out package. I don't think they will offer him that.
"You must realize that your belief systems are not shared by many in the casino industry. You will be a lone voice in the wilderness. You will be in a hostile environment, interacting with people whose views are radically different from what you are accustomed to. It will be a strange and lonely existence."
Well, I think we are all used to that feeling to some degree. Being a player makes you look like a gambler, which is neck and neck with people who have gambling problems, etc. Eliot could put together a good arguement to try to capture a market share of bj players. We all know 99% counters are wannabe Uston's with no real bankroll, the fear of making big bets, and more often than not will leave after they get into a giant negative swing, which is $ in the casinos pockets. With the WSOBj going on I could put together a killer marketing ploy that would make the casino money and allow the 1% killers to get their freak on. It's all about making this a win win situation.
Casino personnel, if you are reading this, I'll sell you the marketing ploy for 50K US. Nothing for you, and a bit of extra cash for me. No contracts.
robmcgarvey@rogers.com
what's the diff ?
Posted by gehrig on 19-Mar-2004 10:25:03 (#7268)
these 21 sites reduce to financial methods to extract funds, ultimately from usual suspect casino guests. these sites are not religious creches.
i see zero ethical diff among posts or articles by zender, thompson (unlv), vancura, anthony curtis, patrick, "wong", even the bishop. all have predictable stances. most use their podia to flog their stuff, ultimately at the expense of the aformentioned casino guests (aka "ploppies").
would anyone refuse to read a post on wong's or nacht's board because they employ "lackey running dogs" to spin responses to their products ?
the situation reduces to a reader's ability to extract value from in this case, message board posts, regardless of the slant of the author. discarding any 21 info out of hand because of some prejudice indicates a limited intellect. even j. patrick material may contain value. all walks through a joint, whether or not i play, are of value to me.
instead of sermonizing on the future merits of the mayor's posts, i'd welcome his soon to be enhanced perspective.
More reasons to agree with LVBear
Posted by Seeker on 20-Mar-2004 10:04:29 (#7280)
As an employee, you would have a legal and ethical duty to act in your employer's interest. From that perspective, how would you handle these situations:
(1) My personal opinion is that the profit-maximizing approach for a casino is the Zender method at the old Aladdin -- deal very deep, get lots of hands per hour, train your personnel to spot the actual counters and weed them out. Suppose the company says to you, "Eliot, one of our customers wants to try that. They want you to spend some time there and tell their pit crews and surveillance people everything you know about counters, how to spot them, what kinds of acts they tend to use, what techniques work and don't work against them, etc." You're being asked to put to use the knowledge you've gained over the years from your own play, but also from reading thousands of posts on your site and from personal conversations with AP's. Are you comfortable using that knowledge to make conditions worse for counters?
(2) Suppose they say to you, "It seems like these CSM's are a win-win -- we screw the counters AND we get more hands per hour from the ploppies. If some players don't like it, the lesson from many other joints is that we can force the machines on the low-rollers, who have fewer options, thereby freeing our surveillance people to concentrate on the higher-limit hand-shuffled games. What do you think?" So, what do you tell them? My guess is that, over time, as the technology improves, CSM's will become cheaper and more reliable. We tend to reflexively deride the CSM's because we say that the money lost to counters would be less than the cost of the CSM's, but I'm not sure that's true, especially when you factor in the improved exploitation of the ploppies. Here again, for you to apply your knowledge honestly on behalf of your employer might well result in making conditions worse for counters.
(3) Elsewhere in this thread you commented, "What would help both sides is the knowledge that the methods casinos use to deter counters cost the casinos more than the counters could ever take." That's clearly not correct about all of the methods now used by casinos. For example, if I were running a casino, I think I'd find BJSV and a Griffin subscription to be worthwhile investments. I wouldn't try to get by with fewer people in surveillance by telling them to look only for cheating or mispays and to stop spending time on evaluation of suspected counters. What advice would you give your new bosses on these points? Beyond that, there may be instances in which casinos use tactics that have a short-term negative EV for them, but pay off in the long run by discouraging red-chip counters before they turn into capable black-chip counters. That would be harder to assess, but it's a valid consideration.
Assuming, though, that you could establish that some current anti-AP practices aren't worthwhile economically, I agree with other contributors who've commented about the psychological aspects of casino attitudes toward us. You might point out a change that would slightly increase their profits, but they wouldn't do it because they don't want to feel that we're getting away with anything. There's also the prevalence of the response But We've Always Done It This Way, and nobody wanting to be the first to make a significant change and possibly looking like a jerk if it backfires. For these reasons, I don't think there'd be many instances where you'd be able to effect a change that benefited both the casino and the AP community.
A final point: You and others sometimes talk about how much money counters now win. You have to think about what would happen in a hypothetical world in which casino countermeasures were decreased. Suppose a zealous state regulatory authority were to decree: "You can't ban counters, you can't flat-bet them, you must allow at least a 20-1 ratio to all players at all tables, you must deal at least 75%, and you must pay 3:2 on blackjacks." What would happen? The place would be hit by multiple teams with seven-figure bankrolls. That's an extreme example but it illustrates the point that your analysis for your new employer would have to go beyond the question of how much money counters are now winning.
Request for the other side ...
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Mar-2004 12:34:33 (#7281)
This is great. Thanks for your insights. Your points are 100% on target.
If there are any would-be casinos that are reading this board, do you mind responding? I'm dead serious!!! These are some pretty serious points, worthy of your response. Go ahead and tell us your thoughts.
--Mayor
Re: Request for the other side ...
Posted by John Wesley Powell on 20-Mar-2004 12:48:54 (#7282)
When you work for casinos you think you are sleeping with sheep but wake up with wolves. Like a moth that flies to close to the flame... They will use you up and burn you out. If they listen at all. Ask whats his name who worked for a time at PPE (not to long ago, remember?).
JWP
Should we be concerned about our anonymity?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 20-Mar-2004 17:41:03 (#7289)
Mayor:
What will you do if they offer you big $ to provide them with the info that typically keeps us remaining anonymous, such as address, personal email, personal name, etc. There are many AP's who have entrusted you with very personal information.
I would like to hear The Mayor's answer... *NM*
Posted by Radar on 20-Mar-2004 19:52:40 (#7293)
Re: I would like to hear The Mayor's answer...
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Mar-2004 20:28:56 (#7294)
Please send me your name, address, and a high quality .gif portrait. 8-)
In my one converstaion about this with the consulting group, I stated in no uncertain terms, that under no circumstances would I be involved in any activities that would identify advantage players.
I have still not decided on this position, but given the great posts here, I'll tell you I am leaning strongly against it.
--Mayor
The Mayor's answer is well appreciated
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 20-Mar-2004 20:38:38 (#7295)
I stated in no uncertain terms, that under no circumstances would I be involved in any activities that would identify advantage players.
Thank you.
Support The Mayor - Help Our Community
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 20-Mar-2004 21:14:36 (#7296)
I think the Mayor is becoming a little restless and wants to spread his wings and try some different opportunities. Giving away free info gets old for anyone eventually. Take a look at his resume.
We need to start thinking and suggesting ways for the Mayor to generate some extra $ through this site or otherwise. More money in his pocket wouldn't hurt and might keep him from going astray. However, if they keep chasing him with bigger and bigger offers, he will go. Money is power. People who have enough of it can buy anything.
Re: Support The Mayor - Help Our Community
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Mar-2004 21:34:49 (#7297)
Hmmm.... maybe I should run for elected office 8-)
Right now I have a job teaching Computer Science. It pays well, but I have been a teacher for 21 years now. I am growing very tired of the age bracket 18-22.
My window is about 2 more years, and then I'll need to do something else. I am restless. You got it. In searching for that next thing, I am opening myself up to the opportunities that come my way, hence this thread. But, this one doesn't look like the thing. The posters here have been VERY persuasive.
Oh well, back to the drawing board.
--Mayor
Re: Support The Mayor - Help Our Community
Posted by Inskipp on 20-Mar-2004 22:24:28 (#7298)
You already know how to teach. You already know how to AP. Why not earn some money teaching APs? I'd sign up yesterday!
Let's make some money!
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 20-Mar-2004 23:11:36 (#7299)
Get enough people through special marketing campaigns to join an organization at $20 per mo. through automatic withdrawal. They will each have a card. Give it a catchy name like; "Party Club", "Club Entertainment" or CLUB 'E' . As the membership base grows, more and more casinos and other vendors will come on line and cater to the club members. In the beginning, members will be provided with extra front of the line V.I.P. services, reduced rates on rooms, meals, entertainment, products, better comps. There will not be a need to carry 20 different player cards for 20 different casinos any more. The vendors will be elated. When they run their card, it will tell them a lot of info + spending habits.
Anyone who is a member can refer other people to the membership. A sponsorship. It's all done with member numbers and SSN's. As people are entered into the member/sponsorship computer, their respective numbers go into a forced matrix multi-level structure. Hmmmmm, ......... talk about making money through duplication. This beats all. When ever a member/sponsor has $50 credited to their #, the computer will generate a check for them. For every $20 that goes in, $10 is paid out to the matrix down-line.
So, who beside myself would like to be at the top of the multi-level matrix for the Club "E" membership base? How many of you would like to be earning just $.25 on tens of thousands of people automatically every month? Oh yes, it continues to keep compounding as more people jump on. Now there's some math for The Mayor.
Later, all members will be provided with access to the latest info on the best and worst casinos, which games NOT to play and why together with other educational info.
Stealth B.
Re: Let's make some money!
Posted by ZOD on 21-Mar-2004 10:00:40 (#7311)
Stealth,
Sweet! I've already got 15 friends ready to sign up. This could be big. I'm talkin' internet big. Maybe even sliced bread big. If I get in fast enough, do you think I could get a pink car to drive?
Best...
ZOD
Re: Let's make some money!
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 21-Mar-2004 10:44:49 (#7313)
ZOD, I'm not completely sure if you're just being facetious or if you're being serious.
I am dead serious about this. In fact, if we decide to do something about it, we shouldn't even talk about it on the board 'til all is up and running. Network marketing a non tangible membership is a very hot set-up for making money. It rocks big time once the ball starts to roll. Multi-level network marketing coupled with a much needed non tangible membership is the perfect combo.
Now, who's in and who's gonna watch before they also jump in later? I got dibs on sponsoring The Mayor. :-) See how crazy it can get?
The way to do it may be to start a corporation. A group of us business heads will join together, organize it, create the base and then start selling and sponsoring. For a small initial investment, no other business has the potential of network marketing.
Anybody have their wheels turning yet?
Re: Let's make some money!
Posted by ZOD on 21-Mar-2004 11:04:12 (#7314)
Stealth,
I was joking, but not intending to belittle your idea. Don't take offense. I agree about the potential of network marketing, and your idea sounds intriguing, but I'm not a "business head." I would have to leave the setup to you smart guys.
Best...
ZOD
Re: Let's make some money!
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Mar-2004 11:10:01 (#7315)
I am not interested in supporting this type of money making endeavor in any way.
But, best of luck to you.
--Mayor
You know, that is what I thought you ...
Posted by Radar on 22-Mar-2004 06:23:22 (#7325)
was going to say.
Wish you well in whatever decision you make.
if as an employee, you withheld pertinent...
Posted by gehrig on 24-Mar-2004 16:10:24 (#7390)
information, you would be less than honorable.
this is exactly analogous to competitive joints hiring one another's casino hosts. it's obvious that those hosts are expected to bring along their "book". that's applicable to any sales business...the new salesman is expected to divert former customers to the new employer's venue.
attendees/contributors to a website, "registered" (whatever that entails), in particular, might be concerned that their i.d.'s be merged with a casino licensee's database.
were i to join a new business, i'd feel obligated to furnish my experience and knowledge to the venture. certain businesses have a track record of hiring staff, wringing them out of their "book"/existing "customer" base, and discarding them. a friend and most successful competitor in an earlier business, used to hire 10 people when he needed only a few. they would soon sort themselves out, usually after at least selling all their family members and friends.
were i to be in a position to hire game protection, game development staff for the casino industry, obviously i'd first look at those "competitors". surely they'd be sources for competitors' inside information. recall that the first surveillance "agents", during the days of the catwalks/one way mirrors, were previous grifters.
same with retail theft. if you could find an experienced shoplifter/"booster" who was now honest...who better to watch the cameras for "moves" ?
i'd like to meet up with one of those early (1950's) casino surveillance "agents". perhaps the day will come. one question will be if they ever spotted one of their old cronies making a move on a game they were protecting.
Awesome Post!!! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 20-Mar-2004 23:25:43 (#7302)
Re: Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 19-Mar-2004 00:21:40 (#7253)
Don't go. Stay free with us. Let's unite and fight them. Let's be the William Wallaces of the gaming industry. Make them come to you and beg for mercy. When they come to you again in the future, show them their ignorance in thinking we are bad for the industry and that they need to stop their ridicules nonsense. They need to stop cutting off their nose in an attempt to spite their face.
Can they buy off your moral standards? How much is your freedom worth?
With every days passing, you're becoming more and more respected. If you go, don't sell yourself short.
Re: Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Mar-2004 08:12:03 (#7259)
He'll end up shouting FREEDOM with his guts all over the place before they draw and quarter him and post him all around the city.
I agree with Revereman
Posted by Big Cowboy on 19-Mar-2004 09:30:48 (#7264)
The casinos are in business for the sole purpose of making money. The reason why they keep making the games worse and worse is to continue to generate larger and larger profits off of the games. The reason why the usual methods to change casinos won't work is that they have not impacted the bottom line. Ploppies en masse still come to Vegas with the idea that it is a gambling mecca, and that they have a chance for riches. However, we in the AP world know the truth of how hard it is to make money playing BJ. Until the word gets out in a large scale of how poor the games are, people will keep coming to Vegas, ignorant of the poor conditions. People don't like to feel cheated. If the message gets out that the games really have little chance for a ploppy to make money, maybe then he/she will feel cheated and stop thinking about wasting money in a place like Vegas. Only then when volume goes down will casinos take notice. We have the internet. It should be put to use for educating people of how bad the math is in gambling. Then maybe change would result. You see this in every other business. I don't think Vegas would be any different
Re: I agree with Revereman
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Mar-2004 14:41:35 (#7285)
Your typical ploppy is overweight, likes the thought that he can martigale his ass to riches, thinks he still has the looks and moves to pick up chics, can out drink everyone, doesn't have to stop smoking because cancer doesn't run in his family, and thinks that if he takes it easy when he is drunk driving, everything will be right as rain. You'll NEVER be able to steal that dream from him. He LOVES the Matrix. If you unplug him, he'll scream to go back. You are not only fighting the Matrix, you are fighting with the programming of the ploppies mind, which has been conditioned for many years.
An observation from afar...
Posted by bfbagain on 19-Mar-2004 10:45:21 (#7269)
It has been said, "that perception is realty." What I am about to say bears no reflection on you, towards you, or about you. No judgments, just observations with the above concept as a guide.
An example: Assume for a second that you're a political consultant with strong views and beliefs towards one political party, which we'll call Party Good (consistent with your current belief system). You work diligently towards electing all representatives of your political belief system and further your political party's influence - to do good as you see it. You do this for years.
One day, for whatever reason, you change (assume, not your belief system, but who you labor for) your efforts to work on behalf of Party Bad (your former adversary). When asked, you give whatever reasons seem honest, sincere, plausible and genuine. You're still working for the greater good. You still associate with individuals, and identify with causes from Party Good.
Question. Would you still feel the same about the person? Would trust still be there? The questions can be asked in a multiple of ways.
For me personally, I have no stake in, or influence of, your deciding factors for entertaining this offer. I don't know you, so I have no opinion, as previously stated, about this and you, regarding your thought process.
I will say this, the fact that you have solicited comments regarding this means there is some conflict within you. Whatever you do, won't diminish what your contributions have been to the BJ community.
If there is a real life example that could fit into the mold referenced above, it would include a fellow by the name of Dick Morris.
Wishing you the best of luck with your decision process.
bfb
Re: An observation from afar...
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Mar-2004 10:55:19 (#7271)
>I will say this, the fact that you have solicited comments regarding this means there is some conflict within you.
You got that right.
I have to say, the collective wisdom that has come forth from this thread is astounding.
--Mayor
Re: Ponderings
Posted by toddler on 19-Mar-2004 11:20:09 (#7273)
Eliot,
Based on all these excellent posts, it certainly appears as though some deep soul searching is in order.
Here are few questions and thoughts you may want to ponder...
At the end of the day, will you be happy? What would make you happy? Or, will this possible engagement bring frustration into your home affecting your relationships with family (most important) and friends?
Would you take this position based primarily on access to casino management so as to advance your (and our) thoughts towards your goals stated here and in your podium? If access to casino management is your goal, are there possible alternatives that may not have been explored?
Do you honestly feel that casino management is going to listen to you? Do you really think you will be able to provide them information they don't already know? I suggest carefully re-reading Cellini's essay "Paranoia Chain of Command Casino Style".
Do you feel any obligation to the community you have established here at cardcounter.com? How would you feel if you had to abandon this site?
Personally, I will support any decision you make and look forward to communications with you well into the future. As you know, our mutual friend thinks you will make BJ history one day. My hope is that he is correct.
Warmest,
toddler
Re: Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by gambler on 19-Mar-2004 22:52:21 (#7277)
Hallo Mayor,
please help the casinos to increase their profits, let`s say for
200,000 Million a year. This can be done with excellent table conditions(surrender)and deep penetration in shoe games(1 deck or less). These conditions have to be made public. Because: The market will GROW.Because: People will think, these excellent conditions, now introduced, are making the game beatable, but millions of ploppies will more lose than before.
Re: Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Mar-2004 01:19:09 (#7278)
Right idea, wrong motivation.
The idea is not that more people will play the games if the rules are better. That surely is not the case. Witness 6/5.
What would help both sides is the knowledge that the methods casinos use to deter counters cost the casinos more than the counters could ever take.
--Mayor
Re: Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by John Wesley Powell on 21-Mar-2004 02:28:02 (#7304)
Mayor lets cut the crap. Either you'll do it or you won't. I've seen better men than you sell their souls. For fame (fleeting), prestige (ego?), money (how much is enough), to feel important (self worth, self esteem). Some do it or threaten to do it out of revenge, spite or to see how many people try to talk them out of it. It makes people feel good to be wanted.
So do it or don't. But make a decision take a stand, right or wrong. Just remember this do you want to be the next "Howard Grossman"? I hardly ever post here, this is the second time I think. There is some nice reading here, informative. Mayor you've publicly taken a stand to the point that every pit & surveillance room in the western hemisphere has your picture. If you can't play anymore your probably thinking why not some money off the deal. Just as you tried to help them at Chumash, in the end you'll lose the respect of both sides. Nice photo on the home page, is it from ***********e or T*******. I've seen it before. Nice "crop" job on the picture though.
JWP
Re: Your thoughts, please ...
Posted by Double21 on 23-Mar-2004 21:47:24 (#7363)
Mayor you are asking if there is a chance of convincing casinos to offer better games and tolerate counters more than many do today. For years I have argued that all the major casinos now (and many of the smaller ones) are managed by competent people who are trying to maximize profits for their companies--virtually all of which are publicly owned.
My answer to your question is a definite yes--you can influence them. But to do that you need a solid business plan which convincely shows your casino can make more money implementing the changes you propose than what they are doing today. This can't be "arm waving" or conclusions based on intuition or opinion. You need solid evidence. There are many variables involved in trying to make a case better games can be more profitably offered so this is a tough job. I certainly think this approach is better than just attacking casinos for the poor games offered now. Good luck---remember this is a business decision for casinos and nothing more.
Your thoughts are welcomed
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 24-Mar-2004 00:18:49 (#7367)
Maybe we need a new type of casino. Somebody needs to start a casino with low overhead. It makes a small profit on a large amount of people. Costco or Home Depot style. Designed just for players. Nothing is very fancy or plushy. Even the floor is concrete. Basic lighting. People would come to it if it was located properly and marketed correctly.
Don't mind me. I dream a lot. I'm an inventor type.
Re: Your thoughts are welcomed
Posted by deZerTomB on 24-Mar-2004 08:34:16 (#7376)
castaways may be available soon, if this groups financing falls through.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Mar-16-Tue-2004/business/23442746.html
Which side are you on?
Posted by lvlefty on 24-Mar-2004 18:23:20 (#7392)
You're kidding yourself. You have to pick a side, if you haven't already.
Lefty
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7240)
Re: I'm having a much bigger prob than fighting the game & PC's
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 18-Mar-2004 21:51:34 (#7249)
Thank you for your insights and suggestions.
I recently moved and my journal for 2002 & 03 is misplaced. It does look pretty good though. I will look again for it. Showing her the Mayor's Journal won't work right now. She didn't believe in what his wife said. Besides, she may think that I am not as good as I say I am. Whenever she brings something like that up, I usually as her, "Why do you think the local casino won't even let me set foot on their property?" She's still a little puzzled by that.
PLayers Club Cards
Posted by Dos Vistas on 18-Mar-2004 21:35:34 (#7248)
I play at a small town Casino. I go once a week. I have been a winner for 3 years now and so far this year I am up $ 3,000. Am I likely to get kicked out? I don't want this to happen! My friend goes a lot more than me he is up $15,000 this year. They know that we are associated with each other, and we have started using the players club cards and getting lots of free stuff. Are we being dumb? By using the players cards they know exactly what we win. Am I being paranoid? Any feedback will be appreciated.
Re: PLayers Club Cards
Posted by Victoria on 19-Mar-2004 11:24:23 (#7274)
Every place is different and some places are very lax. If it is a small place and you have been there about once a week for the past three years then they should already know who you are, card or no card.
The thing about the card is that it can bring your history right up to their eyes on a screen and the freebies are probably not worth the amount that you are taking from them.
It may take a change in personel or a meeting of management but if you continuously win it should just be a matter of time.
I use a card at certain places. Some things to do perhaps are give them your card only if you are down during a session and remind them how much you already bought in for (you might find that you can boost that amount)
If you play any VP, always use your card for that. Same goes for any game besides blackjack. At a local place where I play, the ratholing of green chips is easy while black and purple are watched. I actually saw my name on a computer screen while playing last week and it showed me up about $2700 while I know I am up over 3 times that amount in that place.
I am sure the more experienced here will have much more to add.
Victoria
Be a mullet
Posted by ZOD on 20-Mar-2004 14:34:58 (#7284)
Unless you're being extemely careful, your days are probably numbered. But it's possible to have your cake and eat it too. I've played in a couple of local casinos for nearly a decade now using a valid comp card. To do so, you just have to be the perfect gambling mullet. A few suggestions:
Always "filch" chips to skew the numbers southward. Stay consistent with the amount. And don't get too greedy. At only a chip every other shoe, you'd be surprised at how much losing that equates to in the casino's eyes over the long haul.
Nurture relationships with casino personel. I can't even tell you how many times a friendly pit boss has asked me for verification on my buy-in. If there have been several rebuys, I always inflate the numbers. I've even asked them to fudge on my account a little to help me make up for "all these damn dealer blackjacks." That request always gets a chuckle and sometimes results. I've also learned a great deal about casino operations, shifts, and people to watch out for.
Make sure that your counting is almost subconscious. Use numbers in your conversations with the pit boss. Talk about that dealer seven card 21 that drilled you or about the ages of your children or what you paid for that steak dinner at the other casino. (In cse you're wondering, I use one of those obscenely easy unbalanced counts. No matter what the distraction, if I can see the cards, I can keep the count.)
Vary the time of your playing sessions and shifts. Gamblers sit at the table for hours when they have time. Gamblers stand and play for ten minutes when they're "meeting some friends" or are "headed to the craps table" or are "waiting for that cocktail." Gamblers don't play particular shifts; they play when life allows them to get to the casino.
I know all this may seem a little over the top, but 75% of my play is at casinos where I'm known by my first name. The dealers and pit personel like me, I couldn't possibly be counting cards while I'm visiting with them, and casino records show me to be a loyal patron with substantial lifetime losses. Like, I said, the perfect gambling mullet.
Hope some of this helps. Best...
ZOD
You're no threat.
Posted by Tom on 20-Mar-2004 18:06:02 (#7291)
I think you're getting paranoid. An average win of only 20 bucks a week is peanuts.
I disagree.
Posted by SammyBoy on 20-Mar-2004 23:18:53 (#7301)
If you show up on their reports as a consistent winner your days are numbered. You've got to rat hole chips. Rat holing chips at the craps table is the easiest way to look like a gambling loser. Beat them at blackjack but make it look like you're giving it back to them at the craps table.
I disagree.
Posted by Tom on 21-Mar-2004 13:04:13 (#7317)
He's absolutely no threat. Only an ignorant casino that's on the verge of going bankrupt or so paranoid they sweat nickel action would waste time trying to chase every nickel a player has won. It would be total Kaos'.
I've been winning consistently at many of the same casinos for over 10 years. On that note even ploppies can have positive flux and be winning for a long time. Only the ignorant would kick out winning players who are no threat.
Re: I disagree.
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 22-Mar-2004 21:36:49 (#7342)
I got booted for 6 months worth of breaking evening as a red chipper in my early days. The day I was backed-off, I was in the hole about $150.
Envy, or maybe I hit on the wrong girl may have been a factor. Let's face it though, if they have determined that you're good enough not to loose $, you are of no use to them and they may send you packin'.
I'm of the mind that if they think you can beat them out of a dollar because of special intellectual abilities, it pisses them off.
Being paranoid can ruin your game.
Posted by Tom on 23-Mar-2004 01:13:47 (#7346)
Everyone has their own act and beliefs. Just because a sweaty casino barred you for betting nickels, does not mean casinos barr every nickel player who may be winning more than usual.
Most competent casinos do not barr anyone unless it's absolutley neccesary, or they are a threat. Barring is bad for the casinos business. A cop who hit's you over the head for calling him a jerk, does not mean all cops hit people who call them jerks,does it?
Being paranoid can ruin a card counters game and may cause much stress or headaches,...as a card counter,it's something I can certainly do without. I think nickel players(especially newbies) need to concentrate more on playing a winning game than getting all stessed out and paranoid over being barred.
What's Dos Vistas observe? He's the one that's been playing at this casino for years. Are you getting shuffled up on,..comps pulled,..have counter measures been taken,..are you getting hawked at..half-shoed,etc.?
What's your honest opinion Dos', do you feel they're getting ready to kick you out? You should probably know more about this than we do.
Tom
You make some very good points *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Mar-2004 15:25:00 (#7353)
On the other hand...
Posted by ZOD on 23-Mar-2004 20:33:02 (#7361)
"I think nickel players(especially newbies) need to concentrate more on playing a winning game than getting all stessed out and paranoid over being barred."
Point well taken. Only Dos can determine what constitutes paranoia at this particular casino. However, when playing choices are limited, it is probably wise to err on the side of caution.
Best...
ZOD
Re: Being paranoid can ruin your game.
Posted by DosVistas on 25-Mar-2004 23:01:51 (#7419)
I have not had any problems yet in the casino. But I have always avoided using players club cards. Since me not using the cards is drawing attension I am now using the card but am worried that they will now know exactly what I win, hence the reason for me posting the original message.
I went to the casino last week and rat-holed $500 and they marked me for a small lose. ( yet I won again) So I like that technique, I even bought in twice which made them happy. I am also thinking of raising my unit bets to blacks as basic unit, but again I think the the greens keep me for being noticed that much, so raising may be a bad plan???.
Thank you all for the feedback.
Sincerely
Dosvistas
Re: PLayers Club Cards
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 21-Mar-2004 08:56:18 (#7306)
Once you start using a players card you can't just quit especially at a place that knows you so well. PC's would wonder why you don't want to be tracked and to get all the free stuff. Just roll with it. Rat hole the chips some. Make yourself look like a ploppy. Cash in the chips during different shifts and especially upon entering the casino. Nobody knows your there yet. If your really worried, have somebody you trust cash the chips for you sometimes.
Side Count and CVDATA
Posted by John on 19-Mar-2004 01:42:43 (#7254)
Hi. Want to know if anyone can help me here? I'm trying to do a side count of 7' s and 8's with Hi-Lo and simulating it using CVDATA. There is a sample multi-paramter table in CVDATA where a 16 v 10 has a value of 1, 16 v 9 is 1, 16 v 8 is 1 and 17 v 8 is a 5. What do these values mean? Lets say I'm using Hi-Lo and its a 2 deck game , No DAS, double only 9, 10, or 11, no resplits at all, aces get one card, S17.
Re: Side Count and CVDATA
Posted by deZerTomB on 19-Mar-2004 07:50:20 (#7258)
hit or stand. if the count is above, then stand. below, then hit.
The Phantom got Phlattened...playing Progressive BJ!!!
Posted by phantom007 on 20-Mar-2004 16:17:57 (#7286)
Yes, I got flat bet during recent Tunica trip, playing PROGRESSIVE BJ. I had not planned it; my plan was to play SD and DD, count, play, bet, and insure appropriately.
The trip began as do most all of my monthly "trips down south". Check-in, go to room, inventory stuff to take (soap, shampoo, shower cap, TP), then go to work. It was a weekend night, and busy. All of the $10 SD and DD tables were Standing Room Only, and even though my B/R is now at 1200 Units (@$10/unit), I did not have a comfort level hitting the less crowded $25 tables...upcoming 10 day LV trip, you know, got to have ALL them Units!
However, several $5-10 6D tables to choose from, with zero to 2 other players at each. I rarely play 6D in Tunica, but a certain party (from the Boards) had asked me to obtain some info. for him, and what better way to obtain it than to play the game. I settled in to an open game...starting out with one hand of $10, then dropping down to one hand of $5 in Neg. Cts, and up to two hands of $30-40 as appropriate.
The Cts. went up, the Cts. went down, and my B/R just went down...about 2 hours into this, I was buying in for my 2nd $600. And about this time, Dealer (while shuffling) nodded with his head to the FP to come over. When he did, the Dealer nodded in my direction, and I think said "survelience".
Surely not...boy am I getting paranoid!
I played on for about another 2 hours, same system, no problem...kept losing! Had about $92.50 of my original $1200 buy-in left, and time for bed. The smart play (yes I realize that I have already violated numerous smart plays above) at this point was to pocket the remainder, and return to play another day.
So MY play? Of course, Barber Pole bet the $92.50 on one spot. The Ct. was Pos., and I drew a 6,5 against the Dealer's 6-up. Normally GREAT! But now I was digging into my billfold of "Non-BJ $" to make the DD (my "play $" were in the room safe, and I did not think they would want to wait for me to go get it).
WON! I drew a 10, AND the Dealer busted.
Oh what the Hell...let's play Progressive BJ, and try to get back to even. Stopped CC'ing, went to two hands of $50, and pressed $25 after each win. Both hands seemed to come to life...multiple consecutive wins on both. Within 1/2 hour, I had exceeded "even", and was now $2k ahead!
AND I WAS NOT COUNTING! Well, not really. I was making one adjustment...if I had seen a flurry of 10's and A's on the last hand (this was now a full table), I would drop my bet to $10, even though my Progressive bet at times exceeded $200. I would play the $10 a time or two, until the deck "neutralized", then replace my "big progressed" bet just like nothing had happened.
I did not get "THE TAP"...I got "THE HANDSHAKE": "Hi Mr. Phantom. My name is Mr. X. I am the casino manager. You are a very good BJ player. I am afraid that we must ask you to Flat Bet from this point on."
I decided not to play stupid (of course, most of my actions all night had been stupid), and simply asked "Well...Okay....Uhhh.....How much can I bet?"
"Any amount within the table limits," he responded, "you just can't raise and lower your bets anymore. Whatever amount you bet this very next hand, must be your bet from now on."
I chose a nice round # (above my B/R limits statistically), flat bet for another hour, and won another $1k!
Up $3k, without CC'ing!
And a little bottle of shampoo, a roll of TP, two bars of soap, a shower cap...
phantom007.
Way to stick it to them! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 20-Mar-2004 23:11:43 (#7300)
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7287)
Re: The Phantom got Phlattened...playing Progressive BJ!!!
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 20-Mar-2004 17:27:02 (#7288)
He got lucky with using a progression and BS. They made him flat bet thereafter. What's next?! Baztards anyway!
YES, I realize my mistakes.....
Posted by phantom007 on 20-Mar-2004 18:45:45 (#7292)
I was posting this self-ego-mutilating information FBO those students seeking how NOT to play the game, and for the entertainment of all.
And besides, don't forget the free soap!
GRIN.
phantom007.
Re: The Phantom got Phlattened...playing Progressive BJ!!!
Posted by Sonny on 21-Mar-2004 19:09:04 (#7320)
> If they ask you to flat bet... Just leave !
Better yet, just continue to flat bet ONLY IN PLUS COUNTS! Just sit there with a defiant smile waiting for the count to rise. Don't let anyone else play your spot while you are sitting there. When they complain about the casino being packed and you wasting a seat, tell them "I'll play when I'm damn ready!"
Sure, you'll piss of the pit, lose all cover, and give up any hope of returning again, but what the hell, you just won $3K!
-Sonny-
Why I should stop watching TV.
Posted by hinoon on 21-Mar-2004 02:09:13 (#7303)
HAHAHA...I'm actually trying hard to control myself right now...maybe it's the whiskey...maybe it's just the absurd infomercial I just watched.
Has anyone else seen the commercial advertising the "100% guaranteed" program by master-blackjack player Bobby Singer? It starts off by saying that card counting is incredibly hard, particularly as you increase the number of decks. Any normal person just can't grasp the complex math. Then they show Bobby making thousands of dollars in casinos (footage captured thanks to their hidden cameras....)
Then they introduce Bobby's foolproof system that's so simple, anyone can do it:
MASTERING THE FLOW
I almost shot whiskey out of my nose.
Worse, they have ED McMAHON pushing the product (a DVD, which as far as I can tell teaches some bastardized form of HI-LO)
They also have a blackjack dealer talk about how counting cards is impossible these days. The film a dealer in a casino, yet they insist on having "hidden" cameras while they gamble (which oddly, they talk directly to during game play...)
Man...
Clearly it's time to turn off the TV. Just thought I'd share.
Eliot...this is why we look to you to fight the good-fight and pursue integrity and promote anti-voodoo information as the first line of defense against unfair gaming. The casinos aren't the only people out there who are cashing in on ploppies...
Cheers
Re: Why I should stop watching TV.
Posted by ZOD on 21-Mar-2004 09:42:17 (#7309)
Seems to me that this is EXACTLY the reason we watch TV: entertainment. I'll be watching for this one.
Best...
ZOD
You should enjoy a good comedy
Posted by Victoria on 22-Mar-2004 11:11:26 (#7330)
We all need some comic relief and for us I feel this is also benificial.
People without math ability are not going to invest the time in learning BS, a counting system and then indices. Let alone everything else concerning an act to keep you playing. Everyone else is what we call a ploppy. If someone has a system they want to promote to the public. If there is a casino that thinks this will increase their profits, so they let them film (hidden camera and all) at their place, it all adds up to more profit for them and fewer people believing that you can really count cards. Result to me, a reduction on pressure upon us.
Let's face it, if the ploppies were able to win, we would be unable to ever play and rules would have to get worse than they are already.
Bring on the flow systems, the progression systems and any others.
For those interested I have a magic elixor when taken one hour before playing blackjack will result in your winning about 44% of the hands you play.
Victoria
Don't you mean "A Whopping 44%?" :-)
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Mar-2004 14:34:49 (#7351)
Kinda like those whopping 6:5 BJ payoffs.
Has anyone...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 22-Mar-2004 12:02:07 (#7332)
seen the old "instructional" blackjack video hosted by Telly Savalas? He tells people to always stand on hard 14. When he wins a hand or the dealer busts during his demonstration he'd say: "Now your playin' Telly's way!". A true comic masterpiece.
I wonder if...
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Mar-2004 22:46:16 (#7364)
This has anything to do with the BS play for single deck; stand on 7,7 VS 10?
Re: I wonder if...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Mar-2004 07:49:30 (#7375)
I am positive it had nothing to do with that.
I haven't seen this thing in many years. But I certainly remember it was inconsistent with BS, which I was just learning at the time. It was silly and inaccurate enough for a complete beginner to find funny.
It also professed a "Play with the casinos money" type progression. Double up if you win, then pull back all but your original bet... Or something like that.
Just for yuks I think I will try to find a copy of this to purchase. One should be available for cheap. I'm sure it's not in high demand.
-Felix
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7307)
Re: PLayers Club Cards
Posted by ZOD on 21-Mar-2004 09:40:03 (#7308)
ratholing--secretly removing chips from the table to give the appearance of less winnings or greater losses
Best...
ZOD
How's the Best Way to do it?
Posted by Radar on 21-Mar-2004 16:54:22 (#7318)
I am relatively new and have "rat-holed". I feel very uncomfortable doing it. I feel like a thief. Plus, I know the eye can see everything I'm doing, as well. Sometimes I just hand a few "greenies" to my wife and she puts them away without being too discreet about it.
Should you be non-discreet or just wait until the PC are not watching (and dealer) and just drop them in the shirt pocket? Also, I would think the dealer and pit may easily recall that you had greens or blacks paid out to you and it would be best to rat-hole reds...is this true? Rather than take a black or a couple of green off the table, I usually grab a handful of red and put them in my pocket.
When I do rat-hole, I never cash all the chips at the cage. I cash only what I left the table with at the end, is this a good procedure?
people win all the time relax-do not rat
Posted by eyesfor21 on 21-Mar-2004 17:40:29 (#7319)
The best way is not to rat hole,if they know then for sure
you will be tagged a counter-and then the paranoia will set
in for them.
There is nothing wrong with winning it happens to
bad players all the time, so relax. Casinos/eye in the sky are not
stupid,they constantly add up the rack and know totals and
how much each has as that is their job. Oh sure the odd casino
is not on the ball but most are.
Re: people win all the time relax-do not rat
Posted by Victoria on 22-Mar-2004 11:35:47 (#7331)
Eyes
What you are saying in my opinion is right on for most Vegas casinos but in a couple of Indian casinos that I know of, ratholing is easy and normal and the the eye would be throwing everyone on a positive streak out. What I see is that every ploppy who is in a positive flux throws chips in their pockets (they land up bringing them out later) Also, and very important, the dealers are lax at coloring up players. People leave tables with pockets full of chips all the time, generally just heading to the next table. The pit may come over and ask the dealer what someone left with but there is no way that the dealer can be accurate.
As long as I see others ratholing, I do so. Since I play 25-250 I generally only hide green because during a good run I might have loads of green with only a countable number of black or purple. If the eye in the sky is already alerted and evaluating you, I agree this could be another point against you, but in a crowded casino doing what a bunch of other ploppies are doing seems like fitting in to me.
Re: people win all the time relax-do not rat
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-Mar-2004 12:27:30 (#7334)
Sounds exactly like the way it is in CT. Do you play in CT Vic?
Never rathole black. Those are the ones they really keep track of. If you are playing a $25 game you can rathole enough in green to hide your winnings. Also, in CT the casinos are really friendly with the IRS and there are cases of players having to provide their SS numbers if they win too much. That is just as big a reason to rathole than avoiding detection as a counter. There are limits to what the pit can do to you; the same is not true for the IRS.
Re: people win all the time relax-do not rat
Posted by Victoria on 22-Mar-2004 13:00:04 (#7335)
Sorry, even though I am a Bronx girl, live in California.
It just is kind of logical. If everyone on the table is playing green the dealers will announce when converting to black, changing a stack of green to black or purple, or when a green chip better suddenly is playing some black. The result, the pit is alerted to black and purple movement and not green.
Re: people win all the time relax-do not rat
Posted by ZOD on 23-Mar-2004 20:09:26 (#7359)
Even if you get caught filching chips, there's no guarantee you'll be pegged as a counter. I've seen many a ploppy secret chips away so as not to lose EVERYTHING. If you get caught, just remark that the chips are just "insurance so that my husband/wife doesn't kill me" and you'll color them up when you're done. There are ploppyisms for most every situation.
Best...
ZOD
"ploppyisms" - Why didn't I think of that one? :-) *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 24-Mar-2004 00:07:05 (#7366)
Do not forget
Posted by Victoria on 24-Mar-2004 11:21:00 (#7380)
Also do not forget to practice speaking ploppyish at the table.
Speak of the flow, who cut the shoe, too many doubles and splits on a hand, etc etc. When doing the unploppy such as doubling A7, splitting 9's and such, if asked to explain then in your best ploppyish tell them you thought the flow needed changing. Right or wrong, at least you tried your best because as every ploppy knows from birth, blackjack is very much a team sport.
Re: How's the Best Way to do it?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 21-Mar-2004 20:30:14 (#7322)
When I do rat-hole...
When all PC's are preoccupied with other things. As for the E in the sky; do it also when they would most likely be preoccupied with something happening on the opposite side of the table. Or during the shuffle period.
If you play with your chips a lot with both hands, it makes it easier to make a couple of green disappear now and then. But be discreet. If they catch you and make some sort of joke about you hiding your green or black chips, joke back. Tell them some kind of stupid ploppy nonsense about some superstition you have or make something up about how your wife says you have to always put one green and one black in your pocket for good luck.
If you ever run out of chips on the table, don't go for the ones in your pocket. Pull out some paper and buy yourself some new chips. Let them see money going in their direction.
Blackbelt in Blackjack - new edition being printed
Posted by J1 on 21-Mar-2004 10:19:54 (#7312)
I also posted this on bj21.com and advantageplayer.com.
I was checking for Blackbelt in Blackjack on www.amazon.com on 03/20/04 and found a posting for a new edition of "Blackbelt in Blackjack: Playing Blackjack as a Martial Art". According to the posting, this edition, from Cardoza Publishing, will have a publishing date of November 1, 2004.
The amazon.com posting included the following data -
"List Price: $14.95
Availability: This item has not yet been released. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives.
Edition: Paperback
Paperback: 256 pages
Publisher: Cardoza; (November 1, 2004)
ISBN: 1580421431"
The printing on an enlarged view of the cover was fuzzy, but I was able to read the following, in addition to the title:
"Featuring
Shuffle Tracking
Team Play
[followed by 4 lines I could not decypher]
[followed by]
and so much more...
Arnold Snyder
Author of Blackjack Wisdom and The Blackjack Formula"
I am calling Cardoza Publishing Monday morning, 03/22/04, for more details and will update this thread when I have that information. Since amazon.com is taking pre-orders, I think Cardoza Publishing will use those figures to help set the number of copies in their first print run.
If you cannot wait until November for a $14.95 copy, there are four copies currently listed for sale on amazon.com -
1 - "like new" for $63.77 (easily, the best buy of the four)
1 - "acceptable" for $68.82
1 - "new never used" for $176.03
1 - "new still in shrink wrap" for $194.99
Re: Blackbelt in Blackjack - new edition being printed *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Sonny on 21-Mar-2004 19:14:32 (#7321)
Yeah, what's up with THIS?
-Sonny-
Re: Blackbelt in Blackjack - new edition being printed - UPDATE *LINK*
Posted by J1 on 22-Mar-2004 10:24:58 (#7328)
I talked with a representative of Cardoza Publishing in New York at 10:20 AM EST on Monday, 03/22/04. The representative confirmed Cardoza Publishing will be releasing a new edition of Blackbelt in Blackjack by Arnold Snyder with release of the edition scheduled for November 2004. The representative did not have details of changes included in the new edition.
The 1998 edition of Blackbelt in Blackjack is listed as 186 pages with the last, index-page numbered 185, but the Cardoza Publishing edition is listed at 256 pages. I do not think Cardoza Publishing would expand the 186 pages into 256 pages, so the text/tables constituting the additional 70 pages should be new to the work. Hopefully, Arnold Snyder or Cardoza will provide pre-release data on the expansions/revisions.
For those who wish to check on Cardoza Publishing, I included a link to their web-site below. The company has been around since the 1980's publishing mainly gaming-related books. Some of the poker writers they publish/republish for are Doyle Brunson and Mike Caro, so I do not think they are a fly-by-night operation.
Re: Blackbelt in Blackjack - new edition being printed - UPDATE *LINK*
Posted by J1 on 22-Mar-2004 15:27:32 (#7338)
I guess the old adage "No good deed goes unpunished" is true. As I previously posted, the new edition of Blackbelt in Blackjack (BiB) is not scheduled for release until November-2004, so please do Cardoza Publishing (CP) a favor - do not waste their time by trying to call and order a copy from them now. CP has been swamped with calls today by people trying to order the book today. If you want to pre-order, go to your favorite book-dealer and pre-order there - CP is not taking orders from individuals at this time.
I talked with two representatives of CP in New York on Monday, 03/22/04. While the representatives confirmed Cardoza Publishing will be releasing a new edition of Blackbelt in Blackjack by Arnold Snyder with release of the edition scheduled for November 2004, they did not have details of changes, if any, included in the new edition, but one did say the manuscript has not been received for editing by CP, yet.
The 1998 edition of BiB is listed as 186 pages with the last, index-page numbered 185, but the CP edition is listed at 256 pages. I do not think CP would expand the 186 pages into 256 pages, but ViKtor Nacht of www.advantageplayer.com stated CP usually uses large fonts and unique page-sizes in their books, so, right now it is speculation if new text/tables are being added to the original 1998 text/tables. Hopefully, CP or AS will provide a press-release clarifying these points (Hint, hint - AS/CP).
The text for the 1998 BiB could easily have been loaded to CP's editing DB, the page-sizes and fonts revised, multiple generations be created and edited, and an initial production run and distribution be executed before the end of April, in time for marketing for the summer gaming peak (the decision for CP to publish a new edition was not just made, since the new edition is already posted on www.amazon.com with a different cover design than the 1998-edition).
I theorized one of two reasons for the release being delayed until November-2004 -
1. To pass the end-date of a pre-existing, publishing-rights contract for the book
2. To allow generation and editing of additional text/tables for the new edition.
I hope my second theory is correct.
For those who wish to check on CP, I included a link to their web-site below. The company has been around since the 1980's publishing mainly gaming-related books. Some of the poker writers they publish/republish for are Doyle Brunson and Mike Caro, so I do not think they are a fly-by-night operation.
Re: Blackbelt in Blackjack - new edition being printed - UPDATE
Posted by Lars on 24-Mar-2004 20:16:07 (#7395)
LoL .. im surprised you and the others have never heard of Cardoza Publishing... i been buying some of their books for years (they send me there catalog once a year).. they are located here in brooklyn , N.Y. (im on long island) ... they been around for long long time and have a very good reputation... they either publish or resell books by many notable gambling authors... I would assume the Mayor would know Avery Cardoza (owner and publisher of the company).. anyways you should check out there other products (other books, software etc.)... there all good...
Re: Blackbelt in Blackjack - new edition being printed - UPDATE
Posted by Lars on 24-Mar-2004 20:19:21 (#7396)
oops forgot to mention.. those books you mentioned before being sold of Blackbelt in Blackjack on amazon.com that are currently at between $60-$190 arent the new edition.. there the old edition... amazon.com sells used out of print books by independent booksellers.. so if i were everyone i would just wait for the new edition but if you want the old edition i tend to see it once in awhile on ebay for alot less then the used ones are being sold on amazon.com .. prices usually end at around $25 to $30 on Ebay...
Second edition available cheap
Posted by Seeker on 01-Apr-2004 21:53:46 (#7525)
Cheap, as in free.
Instead of paying a bundle for a copy of Blackbelt, which is out of print, you can get most of it online. The introductory sections are at <A HREF="http://www.bjfonline.com/play.cfm">http://www.bjfonline.com/play.cfm </A> under the rubric of "How to Play Casino Blackjack." Much of the material on advantage play, including the Red 7 counting system, is at <A HREF="http://www.bjfonline.com/beat.cfm">http://www.bjfonline.com/beat.cfm </A> under the rubric of "How to Beat Casino Blackjack."
I recommend this online resource only to tide people over until November. Assuming that the third edition contains some new material, it should certainly be in any serious player's library.
Back in a week
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Mar-2004 11:11:00 (#7316)
On vacation until Sunday, 03/28.
--Mayor
What % Risk of Ruin should I play with?
Posted by John on 22-Mar-2004 08:02:25 (#7326)
I am resizing my bets and I need to know from the professionals what risk of ruin you play with. I found out that I can make $27/hour with a risk of ruin of 22 % and a bet spread of 1 to 12. Or I can spread to two hands and make $55/hour with a 33 % risk of ruin with the same spread. Or back count and make $35/hour with a risk of ruin of 12 % and possibly be kicked out a few places. $15000 bankroll is what I have. $15 dollar minimum bet. Playing with 5 other players.
Can I really do that well playing with 5 other players at the table, playing 6 deck blackjack? I usually don't play with that many people at the table.
Re: What % Risk of Ruin should I play with?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-Mar-2004 12:21:59 (#7333)
Here's my take on bankrolls and risk of ruin. I can't define exactly what my bankroll is. When I go out to play, I have $2-3K in my pocket and I play a $15 or $25 game.
Now according to the Kelly Criterion, that's crazy. But in reality, I'm employed, and if I lose my $3K I can always just get another $3K. And chances are I won't lose it. This is a positive EV game for us and my chances of losing $3K are considerably less than the chances of a ploppy winning $3K, and the odds are quite against the latter happening.
So my advice is- unless playing BJ is your occupation and you have no way of replenishing your bankroll should the unthinkable happen, forget the ROR calculations and play whatever stake that you feel comfortable with, one that would not permanently end your BJ playing days if you lost it. Especially if you backcount, because then the odds are in your favor every hand you play.
Re: What % Risk of Ruin should I play with?
Posted by John on 22-Mar-2004 14:03:09 (#7336)
Thanks automatic. ROR is very important to me, well it is now. I did some refiguring and found a 7 % ROR if I wongout each time the TC drops below -1 which happens 20 % of the time. How good is 7 % ? Also, the more money I add to my bankroll the better my ROR is if my bets stay the same. I do plan to do some backcounting. I plan to backcount as much as I can get away with. If I play $25 6 deck games, $3k is enough to take for a trip? Maybe I need to re-read a few of my books to answer that question.
I have a choice of
S17 6 deck, DAS, DOA, aces get 1 card
or
S17, 2 deck, No DAS, Double on 9,10,11, aces get 1 ,and No Resplits
I am going to choose the 6 deck game because I believe it is better.
Re: What % Risk of Ruin should I play with?
Posted by revereman on 22-Mar-2004 15:16:05 (#7337)
Is $3k enough to play at a $25 table?
Depends on how long the trip is, although you can easily lose $3k in one day playing at a $25 table. Let's say you have a $200 bet, and you split and have two doubles and lose them all. So you've just lost $800, or over $25% of your bankroll. To make it more realistic (and painful), you got two 20's on your doubles and the dealer got a 5 card 21. If losing that $3k in one day is going to very painful, stick to the lower limit tables, if possible. If not possible, be ready to lose your money and build your bankroll back up. The swings in BJ are justifiably compared to a rollercoaster ride. For one thing, they can both make you sick.
I Propose a Third Choice
Posted by Hal Jordan on 22-Mar-2004 18:54:47 (#7339)
"I have a choice of
S17 6 deck, DAS, DOA, aces get 1 card
or
S17, 2 deck, No DAS, Double on 9,10,11, aces get 1 ,and No Resplits"
Save money and frustration and wait until you are able to travel to a game that has a better edge than those two choices you have provided. If you compromise and play crowded games in conditions such as the aforementioned, you are bound to lose that BR.
HJ
Re: I Propose a Third Choice
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-Mar-2004 23:43:23 (#7343)
I disagree with that. You have to play the games you have access to. Sure, it would be nice if we all lived within 10 miles of a nice SD game with favorable rules and better than -0.10% EV, but that is just not in the cards (so to speak) for most of us and we have to play shoe and games with less-than optimum rules. Even if you do live near a very good game sooner or later you are going to be banned from it if you make enough money so you have to be prepared to play under a variety of conditions.
I'm not saying go out and play 6:5 BJ, but even AC rules are acceptable to someone who lives near AC. Just optimize your count, spread, and play for the games you have to work with and look around for penetration. A bad game with good penetration is a good game.
Re: I Propose a Third Choice *PIC*
Posted by Sonny on 23-Mar-2004 00:42:35 (#7345)
> Just optimize your count, spread, and play for the games you have to work
> with and look around for penetration.
I agree. I believe that whatever doesn't bankrupt us only makes us stronger. If you are stuck near a bad game, don't play - WATCH! Look for advantages. Wait for a good count, THEN play. See if the shuffle is vulnerable to tracking (check EVERY dealer, some may shuffle differently than others!). See if the dealers will vary the penetration, and when, and who. See if they flash the burn card, or bottom card, or hole card, or maybe the middle cards when they cut the deck. Find out when the shift change for the pit crew is (the dealers usually don't matter as much, unless you are waiting for a particular one). Find out when the casino is busy enough to get lost in but empty enough to find a seat at several tables. Find out what other games the offer and brag about playing them (next time you get two kings, forget the Royal Match crap and say "I could have used these cards at the 3-card poker table!").
Even if you still can't find a good game, you will be COMPLETELY prepaired for when you do find one. Even more important, you will know how to recognize a good game, and maybe even how to CREATE one. Great games don't usually just fall into your lap, do they?
> A bad game with good penetration is a good game.
Well said. This alone can sometimes be the key to winning.
-Sonny-
Re: I Propose a Third Choice
Posted by Hal Jordan on 23-Mar-2004 19:41:37 (#7357)
I agree with the statements in regards to making negative games positive ones, but I do not believe that the original post carried a tone of such productivity as you state. I may have misunderstood, but the feeling I was left with is that this player is new to the game. I think positive situations can always be found, if the skill of the player is adequate. One who can detect the advantages that you and Automatic Monkey stated would not be asking the question that was asked.
My suggestion for one who has not yet tested themselves fully is to take time learning the game under good conditions before journeying into a much more advanced sector such as you suggest. One can make the best of bad games, but can a new student of the game? Possibly a select few can, but my opinion is that the vast majority need practice at the good games first.
HJ
P.S. I don't live close to any good games.
Baby steps
Posted by Sonny on 23-Mar-2004 19:56:25 (#7358)
> My suggestion for one who has not yet tested themselves fully is to take time
> learning the game under good conditions before journeying into a much more
> advanced sector such as you suggest.
True, but isn't that what computer programs are for? You can practice all day long, under any conditions you want, and never lose a penny (other than the price of the software). I agree that a new player might want to visit a local casino in order to get used to the ambiance, but I would suggest they only watch from behind the table for a while. If they can't concentrate enough to count from behind the table, or if they are not fast enough to count all the cards and still look like they aren't, they will know that they are not ready for a seat yet. Especially when a new player is trying to nurse a small bankroll, I suggest they take "baby steps" towards the table. If they don't they may regret it later.
My impression from the first post was that the player was trying to minimize his RoR. I like to think that the best defense is a good offense! Bigger edge + smaller spread = smaller RoR. I guess I went a little overboard in my post though, huh?
-Sonny-
How good 7% is
Posted by Sonny on 22-Mar-2004 19:11:31 (#7341)
> How good is 7%?
A 7% RoR is about a 1 out of 14 chance of going broke. Compare this to your 22% (1 out of 4.5) and 33% (1 out of 3). Even a 5% RoR has a 1 in 20 chance of going broke.
How do those numbers look to you? Your RoR should depend on YOUR opinion on how much of a chance you want to take with your bankroll. Some people will play with a 33% RoR if they know that they can get more money if they lose. Some people, like me, want to make our bankroll last as long as possible. Your RoR should be completely up to you.
Another thing to consider is that by lowering you RoR by playing with a smaller betting unit, you will be making less money for your effort. You must find your own compromise between risk and reward.
-Sonny-
Re: How good 7% is
Posted by John on 23-Mar-2004 06:58:33 (#7348)
Thanks for answering my questions, everyone. There is so much to learn in this game. Now that you say 7 % means a 1 in 14 chance of going broke, I think I am going to try to go even lower. I will just put in more hours on the table.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7327)
Re: Your RoR is extremly high
Posted by John on 22-Mar-2004 10:28:58 (#7329)
So, you are playing with a 1% risk of ruin ? I think 20% might be too high, also. I am not very experienced so I need some guidance. I don't want to lose my bankroll. I plan on doing some backcounting as well and I understand that helps my risk of ruin. I am going to do some more analysis and see if I can find a lower risk of ruin.
How to Increase BR
Posted by ladykiller on 23-Mar-2004 12:41:46 (#7350)
Since we're on the topic of ROR, having a bigger bank roll obviously helps. I was wondering if anyone knows an easy way to get a loan for as little interest rate as possible. Keep in mind I'm asking for someone like a 21 year old college student with little credit. Already got school loans, heard of a place called cash call or something like that where you can borrow 10k. I would do this for a high interest rate if I'm about to go on a real long counting trip. Suggestions... (By the way, I know someone's gonna be sarcastic and say to just play more and your bankroll will eventually go up- so don't say that).
I know someone will.
Wrong way to go!
Posted by Sonny on 23-Mar-2004 20:22:55 (#7360)
A loan is the wrong way to. Let me give you an example:
You get a $10k loan from someone who is nice enough to charge you a 5% vig each month. This means that you need to earn $500 every month just to break even! With a 1% edge this translates into $50k in action every month in order to earn your $500 (your EV is 1% compared to the 5% vig, so you need 5 times as much "action" as the loan is getting).
If you can play in quality games for 8 hours a day (which you can't) for 30 days a month (which you can't), you would need a betting unit of over $208 in order to earn your $500 in 240 hours of play. That's a lot of playing just to break even! Include the wild fluctuations and you might even LOSE on your first month, then you owe 5% on a $10,500 loan next month! Of course, your RoR with a $10k bankroll and a $210 betting unit is somewhere around 99%. Even with a 5% advantage (playing even with your loan shark) you would still need a betting unit of about $42 over 240 hours just to break even.
Your best bet: Tell you parents that you need some money for a down payment on your new car. Then tell your grandparents that you need some money for a down payment on your new car. Then tell your brother/sister/cousin/uncle/aunt/...etc. The last thing you want to do is ruin your credit rating by gambling. Actually, the LAST thing you want to do is tell your parents/grandparents/brother/sister/cousin/uncle/aunt...etc that you ruined your credit rating by gambling.
-Sonny-
I don't mind saying it
Posted by ZOD on 23-Mar-2004 20:49:19 (#7362)
I don't mind saying it. Save a buck or two. Start at low limits. Add to your winnings when possible. Graduate to bigger tables. Invest your winnings. Retire rich. Doesn't that sound better than the bleak picture Sonny laid out?
By the way, nice post Sonny.
Best...
ZOD
cheap money...
Posted by Cyrano on 24-Mar-2004 00:38:06 (#7370)
I don't know about $10,000, but usually, schools offer emergency loans (for, of course, emergencies such as paying rent on time or something) for 0 interest. You just need to pay it back at the end of the semester. My university offers emergency loans up to $650. This is probably the cheapest money you'll get, short of mortgaging a house, which would be probably the second cheapest. Then comes SBA loans, but you'll need to have some kind of business for that. If you have the means to pay back the loan, why not just wait until you accumulate the funds?
Why not just ask a banker?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Mar-2004 05:24:02 (#7374)
Being card counting is such a good deal financially, why not just go to the bank, tell the loan officer you need a $10K stake to begin a serious card counting career, and get a loan that way? Bankers are smart guys and can understand the mathematics of counting.
I wonder how long he'll laugh. Now I am not 21, have good credit, own a home, and if I were to suggest I was going to take the money anywhere near a casino, they'd laugh at me too. Unless of course I was willing to put my house up as collateral. Why is that? Because bankers are smart guys and they understand the mathematics of counting.
Let's look at the things that could go wrong with such a deal. The simplest one is I could just have a string of bad luck and lose all the money at the table. It can and has happened. It can happen in one night. Then there's other matters. With all the stress, I could develop an addiction and lose my money that way. Or maybe I have a great winning night, and bring a whore up to my room to celebrate, and when I wake up she's gone and so is all my money. Or someone could see me cash out, follow me outside and rob me in the parking lot. Or someone could pick my pocket in the men's room. Then there are a dozen more things I can't think of right now. True, most counters are disciplined enough not to let these kinds of things happen, but we are also disciplined enough not to go into debt for a bankroll!
My advice is to get your experience in at the $5 table. You're only 21, that's barely old enough to even play in most casinos. Bring a $500 stake and go home empty pocketed a couple of times, then ask yourself if you want to repeat the experience with money you have to pay back to someone. Or maybe not. If you bring $500 to the casino, your chances of going home with $1000 are greater than your chances of coming home broke. And if you do lose it your chances of getting another $500 stake are much greater than getting a $10K one, especially if you have gone into debt. See what I'm getting at? For a guy like you, screw the bankroll criteria, worry only about the technical aspects of your game, and get out there and roll the bones with what you've got.
Re: Why not just ask a banker?
Posted by deZerTomB on 24-Mar-2004 19:07:41 (#7393)
I agree with auto monkey.
People misunderstand bankrolls. What you need is a TRIP bankroll which should only be a portion of your total bankroll. Then set loss limits for each session. Then set your spread and don't overbet the TRUE count. Stick to the indexes and make the correct play according to the count no matter what happened on the previous 25 hands. And while you're at it, practice your shuffle tracking, bottom steering, dealer tells, card bending and hole carding.
Also, any gambling bankroll should be money you can afford to lose. That's rule number 1. Never gamble with money you can't afford to lose. All you have to do is go to any sweat shop to see where that will get you. Also it won't stress you out so much if you happen to lose a little.
Interesting Dealer Comment
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Mar-2004 14:50:12 (#7352)
While playing at a pretty well known casino, I was talking with a dealer about someone that had been thrown out the night before for cheating. She told me that their surveillance crew sucked. The peolple working surveillance know the video equipment very well but have no clue about the games. She said the people that are caught cheating are always caught by the floor people and dealers and surveillance only catches cheaters after someone is suspected of cheating and they rewind the tape and investigate. I wonder how typical this is? This backs up a feeling that I've had for a while now. It doesn't matter how many cameras a casino has, they still need people observing those monitors. I know everything is recorded by the camera, but it takes a human being to catch the cheat (or card counter).
Dealer comment the other night
Posted by suicyco maniac on 23-Mar-2004 18:06:42 (#7355)
I had a dealer the other night say to me (after getting a call from the eye about his sloppy payment on my BJ) "they can always catch the stupid things that don't matter but they never catch me when I deal too deep into the deck"...I proceeded to throw him a fiver and said "really" needless to say I got great pen for the rest of his stay and managed to almost dig out of the 5,200 hole I was in......Thank you sir I apreciate it....SM
Re: Dealer comment the other night
Posted by deZerTomB on 23-Mar-2004 19:05:48 (#7356)
read eyesfor21 posts. or cellini. they know from experience.
Re: Dealer comment the other night
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Mar-2004 01:05:14 (#7371)
I would have thrown him a lot more than a five!
I don't think in most places (especially outside of NV) surveillance is looking for counters. They're just not going to get people who are sophisticated enough for what they pay surveillance. If one of those guys understood counting, he'd be out there doing it instead of working his dead end job up there. Cheating is a different story but we counters don't need to get involved with that. If casino surveillance is like surveillance in any other industry, their primary concern is going to be employee misconduct.
Why........
Posted by suicyco maniac on 24-Mar-2004 19:44:35 (#7394)
.throw more then five when five got the results I was looking for????? SM
Re: Why........
Posted by sliverdale on 26-Mar-2004 16:27:59 (#7424)
How about $10 and tell him/her to tell the next dealer in the rotation?
SM: Is that email address still good? I'm still interested in that proposition.
Counter Basic Strategy
Posted by Inskipp on 23-Mar-2004 17:50:26 (#7354)
I recently heard of counter basic strategy. I was thinking of getting CVDATA or SBA. Does anyone know if one or both of these can compute CBS for a given set of rules and conditions?
Re: Counter Basic Strategy *LINK*
Posted by Cyrano on 24-Mar-2004 00:29:02 (#7368)
Blackjack 6-7-8 can sim it for you. That's the only software i know that can do it. It's by Stickysoft, I believe.
Re: Counter Basic Strategy
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Mar-2004 01:06:49 (#7372)
CVData can do just about anything. Basic Strategies for different games are published all over the web, but I would recommend getting the software so you can plug in any special conditions associted with your game nd put your strategy to the test.
Re: Counter Basic Strategy
Posted by Someone on 24-Mar-2004 09:41:14 (#7378)
I don't know if the question was fully understood.
For those who may not know -- here are a couple of plays that might be in CBS:
Always stand on 16 vs. T
Always take insurance
Always double on 8 vs. 6
Always stand on 12 vs. 3
The point it that you will be making incorrect strategic plays when you have less money on the table.
I am not sure where you can find this.
Re: Counter Basic Strategy
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Mar-2004 13:00:48 (#7385)
"For those who may not know -- here are a couple of plays that might be in CBS:
Always stand on 16 vs. T
Always take insurance
Always double on 8 vs. 6
Always stand on 12 vs. 3
The point it that you will be making incorrect strategic plays when you have less money on the table."
No, I don't get it. You don't always do those things using any count. Maybe what you mean is the playing indexes for a counter, in other words, at what point do you stand 16 vs. X, etc.? That's not the same as Basic Strategy. Basic Strategy has nothing to do with the count. CVData will give you the numbers you need.
When is ZG Coming Back? *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Mar-2004 22:48:26 (#7365)
soon! *NM*
Posted by griftzen on 24-Mar-2004 11:26:34 (#7381)
14 Months
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Apr-2004 07:40:31 (#7586)
from the original incarceration or 14 months in Florida? He's gonna miss the free room and board! ;>
Re: When is ZG Coming Back?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Mar-2004 11:40:18 (#7382)
He was sentenced on 2002-11-27 and turned himself in about six weeks later to serve a 30 month sentence. This coresponds with his last post here on 1/17/03 11:07:44 p.m I'd say he went in on the 18th. He may get a shorter sentence since word has it that he has opted for the drug rehab program which switched him from Nellis to Florida.
Looking forward to a new improved non-Grifter when he comes out.
RM
It wouldn't surprise me if he serves half his time *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 24-Mar-2004 15:50:52 (#7389)
Summer Time
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Mar-2004 16:20:21 (#7391)
It would be nice to have him back by summer.
Re: Summer Time
Posted by John Wesley Powell on 25-Mar-2004 16:30:23 (#7418)
He is a confirmed and convicted con artist. No team he ever played on made money. Ask barfarkal? There are so many people waiting for him to get out that it would be safer for him to stay locked up. Anybody who smokes pot before they go play is out to lunch. He has fooled many people. He is not a player, he talks a good game but he lacks the integrity, honesty and basic personal hygiene (sic) that even the lowest forms of life adhere to. He is someone to be wary of and anyone who gets mixed up with him deserves what they get. I personally know friends of mine who will give a him very stern talking to when they meet, and they will meet, it is destiny. His handle is the grifter for a reason. Rehabilitated? Yeah right when pigs fly. He'll do any program that gets him out early. Remember you have been warned.
Re: Summer Time
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 28-Mar-2004 07:52:25 (#7438)
Yes, I had heard that Grifter was "taking the easy way out" (line from Day Tripper) and getting a reduced sentence by opting into drug re-hab, and that is why he was transferred to Florida. I have to admit that the psychopathology of a "grifter" or con(fidence) man is very similar to the psych of a serial murderer. There is a deep desire to get the better of people that you just can't shake. It is a thrill that normal people just do not share. Where some of us enjoy helping people out, there is that alternate universe or lifestyle. It would be rather easy to give up drugs in prison I would expect, so that one could get back to business as soon as possible. I'm sure he feels the thrill of grifting the jail system just as much as he enjoyed grifting his way to a lighter sentence by helping the feds catch all the people that he ran the boiler rooms with. Those 30 months could have been 30 years. I'd think he would be afraid of running into his boiler room buddies more so than the mathematically minded counters, but who knows?
You don't tug on superman's cap
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the ol lone ranger
And you don't mess around with SLIM
Personally, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and so I am looking for the better angels of his nature when they spring him. I will suggest that you take his advice on blackjack, no question, until you get to the point that he wants to "hook up" with you. I'm positive that with certain individuals he knows enough to play fair, and will always refer you to those people as a judge of character. I have been surprised and been upset by some of these people for either being duped, or being blind, or even worse: knowing the truth and standing idly by. I will never understand that for as long as I live.
There is also another reason I titled my post Summer Time. That is the song I remember the tragic life of Janice Joplin to. Under all that Zen and Grifter, I see a very unhappy guy looking for something he just can't get.
Robby Mac PhD
Drugs in prison
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 29-Mar-2004 05:25:43 (#7450)
Unfortunately no, prisons are full of drugs, as are many drug rehabs. Prison can be one of the worst places to try to get clean. The guards sell the stuff in there. What rotten bastards.
Tears in H . . . . .
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Mar-2004 09:44:03 (#7452)
Saturday they found the decomposed body of Cecilia Zhang. She was on America's Most Wanted back in October. Her 10th Birthday was tomorrow. She was taken from her home in October and a hiker found her along a river bank off a church parking lot. There is nothing quite as cruel and as inhumane as a human being. The burden of this kept me awake most of the night. I took today off to get some rest. I am a very sympathetic person, and for some reason, this got to me on a very deep level. Why? Why do my heart strings sing for this little girl? Why do they sing at all? Each time something like this happens, they sing louder, but they will never drown out the noise created by the demons that continue to manifest their greed, fear, and hatred. In this battle of the bands my 60w Roland Bolt 60 is no match for all those Hi Watt and Marshall cabinets stacked on top of each other screaming out for more souls to kill.
A prison is like the alternate universe to a church meeting.
Thoughts on the camera
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Mar-2004 01:15:13 (#7373)
Here's just a couple of thoughts I have on surveillance cameras. I work with electronic cameras as an engineer so I'm familiar with their limitations. I don't believe there are any affordable cameras that have the resolution to both read an individual player's cards and record all of the action at the table. Just not enough pixels.
Another limitation is their color sensitivity. All cams I've ever seen work through that black plastic. That stuff transmits only wavelengths longer than about 800 nm, so color as we know it does not exist out there. Can they tell the color of the chips? I don't know, a future project of mine is to bring some different color chips home and photograph them with a CCD camera through some 800 nm plastic and see what they see.
Any thoughts on this? Seems like deceiving the cameras is a potential opportunity to enhance AP.
cameras...
Posted by gehrig on 24-Mar-2004 15:31:55 (#7386)
128:1 optical/digital. nevada gaming requires that each 21 game must have 3 cameras to view the table layout, dealer, and all players. it's not difficult to simultaneously aim 4-6 cameras on a suspect. that includes a player's feet for those who need their feet to maintain some count. one of those cameras should be able to get at least a 3/4 facial image. the 128:1 easily displays coin dates, currency serial numbers, the hairs on the back of a player's hand, wristwatch model, jewelry, the player's eye movements.
watching moves in slo-mo is interesting. b&w cameras are superior for detection of certain wavelengths. nevada gaming also requires that checque color/value be easily distinguishable by surveillance.
Good information
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 29-Mar-2004 05:21:14 (#7449)
If they are using an adjustable camera with zoom that answers a lot of questions. Seems like they would have to zoom in on someone's say, feet, if that's what they were looking for, and they couldn't necessarily roll back the tape and get someone's history of feet use because the camera was on the table. They'd have to be tipped off. Also if they have 3 or 4 cameras zoomed in on third base for some suspicion it's unlikely they have more than one on first base. They only have so many cameras.
Something I've always thought about doing but know better: bring a small handheld IR laser to the casino and point it into a camera, see if they realize what it is.
that "ir" laser will get the attention...
Posted by gehrig on 29-Mar-2004 08:54:01 (#7451)
of an agent, particularly with a b&w camera.
the overall issue is that those who are *winning* will have their play evaluated. so if your third base player is winning, he'd deserve a look. same with your first base player. if the players were psychics but lost, who cares ? guys who count by stacking or arranging their checques are amusing, until they win. coolest move by surveillance cum pitstiff is to 86 an identified "advantage" player, when he's down. that's kinda like the joint that pulled the comps and credit line of a whale when he was half way through his line, thus prohibiting him from "getting right".
how long would it take any of the attendent "advantage" players to i.d. a fellow card counter ? cheaters, those employing shuffle tracking, ace locating/steering, or hole carders, will take longer to sort out.
bottom line for *most* "advantage" players and their acts, is to enjoy camouflage within the flock. operating below the radar is the issue without a phenom act. and to work within that flock is an art.
Re: blending in
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 29-Mar-2004 11:01:34 (#7454)
Now I'm not too afraid of being barred when I'm down. That principle defies the mathematics of the game, just like a counter leaving when he's ahead does. The win/loss column has no memory. Last night, I played green, won my first couple of hands and walked out 4 hours later $1800 richer. They'd have had a hell of a wait for me to be down.
But playing under the radar, that's the ticket. My problem is now: at my favorite stores, the size of my action stands out from the crowd on the weekdays. On weekends it's the right size, but the tables are too crowded for me to play two hands or to Wong around. And I'm not yet big enough to play in the high-limit area. My act is pretty solid (drunk) and my stores probably the most tolerant in the US, but as my bets increase I'm going to have to get to some more venues.
yes, your conclusion is correct.
Posted by gehrig on 30-Mar-2004 06:49:13 (#7455)
spread the gains over a larger "host" base. i've long had a polish toothache for those "advantage" players/authors who aggressively push the pitstiffs tolerance. that's fine for the weekend warrior or someone who needs to show off before his cronies. that's imbecilic for a counterazzo who wants to twist the greater long term buck from this game. the lout gets 86'd with maybe a backroom, lots of faxed photos/image records to boot. the mosquito gets fed, and fed, and fed.
Re: Thoughts on the camera
Posted by ND on 26-Mar-2004 15:22:44 (#7423)
Wrong........All chips have markings on the edge which are completely visible and whatever camera's you are working with must be very poor.
I WISH YOU WERE RIGHT!!!
Posted by phantom007 on 26-Mar-2004 21:23:26 (#7429)
A number of years ago, let us say 4-5, I was staying and playing at a certain LV strip address, and was there for about one week. This time was in my "Ploppy to semi-Ploppy" transition phase, wherein, I had both won and lost lots of $$$, playing Progressive BJ and Craps.
Anyhow, betting and usually losing heavy Green-Black action, as I "was learning to CC", I was popular at this store. Free Room...no problem. Free FRB...of course. Limo. ride to the airport...PROVIDED!
DON"T WANT NO MORE 17K LIMO. RIDES...I tipped the Limo. driver $20. Appropriate??? I usually tip the Cab Driver $5. What would Martha Stewart do?
BUT TO THE POINT...and as usual, I hereby sacrifice my own ego FBO students of the game...a guy sits down beside me, and complements me on my play this afternoon. EGO BONER! EGO BONER!
"Mr. Phantom, you played all afternoon with my father. I watched you, and you are an excellent BJ player".
I was already DRUNK by the afternoon, and had no real idea with whom I had played with by the EVENING, which was now, but again, appreciated someone (besides the Pit) recognizing my skills. And of course, by now, I was just Sh#t FACED!!
THE SCAM WENT LIKE THIS:
-----1. Compliment me.
-----2. My father (who played with you all afternoon), will be here shortly with more $$$$.
-----3. Could you loan me a little until Dad gets here?
-----4. DRUNK and Sh#T-Faced, who cares, here is #8 Black.
-----5. Scamer plays a few hands of Red, and BADLY, then states something to the effect of: "Maybe Dad is going to be late...I will go to the Cashier and get your money you loaned me"...grabs #7 Black, and disappears out the door.
-----6. I realized what was going on, about 30 sec. after he left the table, i.e., he left a "Black and Change" on the table, and walked off with MY $$$!
BUT TO THE POINT OF THIS POST...
-----1. PC's/FP's flocked to my assistance.
-----2. I never got my money back...but PC's/FP's bitched at me and educated me as regarding my STUPIDITY!!!
-----3. About 15 min. later, PC's/FP's showed me HIS PICTURES...from the Riviera, Stardust, Bellagio, Flamingo...all printed off their "picture fax", likely from Griffin. Obviously, I was not HIS first victim.
THEREFORE, THEIR CAMERA TECHNIQUES ARE PRETTY GOOD!
IMHO!
phantom007.
Re: Thoughts on the camera
Posted by Geoff Hall on 27-Mar-2004 08:06:45 (#7435)
I've seen surveillance cameras in operation and also videos from surveillance cameras (not in USA though) and the quality is enough to see both the cards and the chip denominations. Also, there is a camera available that can read the dealers cards and record the total of the hand.
Best regards
Geoff
Cost Factors for BJ Games (re: Stealth Bomber)
Posted by toddler on 24-Mar-2004 08:57:44 (#7377)
Regarding Stealth Bomber's lastest post in Eliot's "Your thoughts please" thread, SB floated the idea of a low overhead casino. Here's a snip...
Maybe we need a new type of casino. Somebody needs to start a casino with low overhead. It makes a small profit on a large amount of people. Costco or Home Depot style. Designed just for players. Nothing is very fancy or plushy. Even the floor is concrete. Basic lighting. People would come to it if it was located properly and marketed correctly.
As part of my never-ending education of non-BJ casino related material, I recently received a question from a good friend asking if I knew the cost factors involved in keeping a blackjack game opened and fully staffed. A very good question indeed and one that stirred the synapes. I have my list and am curious what *you* think are the cost factors? Once you think you have those factors, consider which ones could be cut to produce a low overhead casino.
Who cares?
Posted by Tom on 24-Mar-2004 15:40:20 (#7387)
I think you're at the wrong website. What I do know is casinos pay the dealers virtually nothing per hour and it's a dead end job. Talk about low cost,if casinos paid them any less they should be arrested for being a sweat shop, in essence many already qualify.
I think we all should care
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 27-Mar-2004 23:13:21 (#7437)
I don't think toddler or I are advocating cutting dealer wages. I personally think they should be paid the same or slightly more especially if they are fast, and have a good personality. I think the point is that a whole lot of money is going for unnecessary extravagance. Not all gamblers want or need to always be in LV Strip type casinos that put so much $ into comfort and appearance.
I don't understand why somebody can't just accept running a casino much the same way and with similar net financial returns as does a wholesale warehouse type grocery outlet. Hell, why not a whole chain of wholesale warehouse type casinos? Let the players have a little more $ going in their direction.
Re: Who cares?
Posted by toddler on 28-Mar-2004 19:32:11 (#7446)
The entire point of this post is this... the real world of AP is not written in all these books and posts we read. The public information is just an initial substrate on the long road to true AP-dom. The amount of information *not* discussed on these public forums dwarfs that of which is written. Knowing who your adversary is as well as their inner-most functions is crucial to a complete understanding of the microcosm we inhabit.
I'm not defending the casinos here whatsoever. All I'm doing is providing some information for you all to chew. Consider all these costs, the rising cost of everything and possibly some mismanagement here and there and you may be able to understand why it is becoming more difficult to find those $5 tables at some of the nicer stores. The issue of casino cost factors was posed to me because I wanted a bone to chew for a while, to get me to think outside the everyday container.
Perhaps some of you think this is all just a load of snake squeeze. Could be. Personally, I would rather walk into a casino with a more complete understanding to foster longevity than blindly ramping bets out only to get the quick tap.
This is all IMHO.
Caveat emptor.
toddler
P.S. - Welcome back Mayor.
Re: Who cares?
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Mar-2004 20:07:44 (#7447)
>The amount of information *not* discussed on these public forums dwarfs that of which is written.
Almost every day I want to write something about something on this site and I decide not to do it. All I can say is OPEN your eyes and mind ... positive EV is everywhere in casinos.
Thanks for the welcome back.
--Mayor
Re: Who cares?
Posted by Tom on 29-Mar-2004 00:49:58 (#7448)
In the real world most card counters could not care less about the nitpicking of discussing what it cost a casino to run a blackjack table. The expenses you speak of is the fundamental cost of running a casino(not only a a blackjack table). Yet,you make it appear as if blackjack is to blame for ALL casino expenses you listed.
One could ask me,"How much does it cost to keep a tire on a car rolling?"
Well,here's the list of expenses.
1) rotor
2) axle
3) transmission
4) frame
5) steering wheel
6) engine
7) distributer
9) battery
10) blah,blah,blah,etc.
As you can see I've blamed the car tire for the fundamentenl expenses it takes to build a car. The tail does not wag the dog.
Who cares? Oh,Stealth does,he's gonna open up a car lot;)
I Was Replaced by an Internet Dealer
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Mar-2004 09:56:51 (#7453)
All the glitz and glamour, staff wages, etc are history online. That is why they have so much money to give you when you walk thru the "front door." The Mayor is right, AP is all around you, but not just in a casino. You are only limited by your own expectations, and the math that goes with the game you play. Seen the price of gas lately? Goes from 65 cents a litre up to 80 in one day. I'm sure everyone that logs in here can figure out a way to retire in no time using this information and a pocket calculator.
Re: Cost Factors for BJ Games (re: Stealth Bomber)
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 24-Mar-2004 22:29:29 (#7398)
I don't know the cost factors. However, I'm sure there are people reading this board who could shed some light for us on the subject.
I started thinking of this a long time ago. But recently it surfaced again in my mind when I walked into the Peppermill in Reno. I'm wondering what their electric bill is. I don't know how they could ever allow anyone to leave with having won some $ from that place.
Is it possible to draw enough ploppies into a casino that's designed just for playing with better odds? I remember when the Price Club wholesale shopping warehouse first opened. It was the first of it's kind in my area. My point is; that it was packed with loads of shoppers. Even though, it was a crewed looking place with concrete floors and you could see the steel beams and trusses in the ceiling.
I'm thinking there is a market out there for this type of casino. There must be plenty of people out there who don't really care about paying for a fancy plushy environment while they are gambling.
Re: Cost Factors for BJ Games (re: Stealth Bomber)
Posted by revereman on 25-Mar-2004 07:58:29 (#7401)
Several years ago, I went to an Indian casino in CA (I think in the Palm Desert area) that had conditions like you guys are describing. It was player banked and I think each player paid 50 cents or a dollar each hand. I quickly figured out that was a heavy price to pay low limit (even high limit) BJ. The place was pretty crowded.
Like everything else, I'm sure there is a market for casinos with few, if any, amenities. It would probably attract compulsive gamblers (good for the house), APs (bad for the house), and some locals (probably good for the house). No matter how spartan, there are still costs involved with any business. I don't know what the licensing requirements and costs are in each state, but this sounds like a good entrepreneurial opportunity for an AP.
My current list
Posted by toddler on 25-Mar-2004 08:45:43 (#7402)
Here is a list of everything I could conjure as well as a couple items provided by my good friend. These are straight casino factors, nothing hotel related. Consider all these costs then attempt to 1) Cut costs and 2) Offer $5 games on a regular basis.
Prorated Costs:
Pit Supervisors - Salary and Hourly Labor
Accounting
Legal
Security
Beverages
Servers
Floor Space
Utilities (Electrical, HVAC)
Surveillance
Technical
Marketing Salaries and Assoc Cost.
Health Care Plans
Other Expensed Benefits
Cage personnel
Maintenance
Doubtful Casino Accounts Receivable (Marker Play)
Early Retirements of Debt
Interest Income (can exist)
Write Downs
Straight Costs:
Dealer Hourly Wage
Licensing and Rental (No-peek, SMs, CSMs)
Interest Lost on Idle Cash to Cover Chips in Float
Are chips really backed $1 for $1?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 25-Mar-2004 09:53:45 (#7405)
Interest Lost on Idle Cash to Cover Chips in Float
I have always thought that regardless of how many chips are out there floating around, they were not actually costing the house anything. Isn't it correct to assume that a house may have 10M worth of redeemable chips but only needs to have a portion of that ready to pay out to the people who actually make it to the cage?
Re: Casino Bankroll Requirements
Posted by toddler on 25-Mar-2004 10:27:11 (#7409)
I don't believe that they have to cover every chip dollar for dollar. Although, I still believe there is interest lost which would be prorated. Here is the bankroll requirements section from the Nevada Gaming Commission and State Gaming Control Board's Regulations...
6.150 Minimum bankroll requirements.
Each nonrestricted licensee and each person licensed as an operator of an inter-casino linked system shall maintain, in such manner as the chairman may approve or require, cash or cash equivalents in an amount sufficient to reasonably protect the licensee's or operator's patrons against defaults in gaming debts owed by the licensee or operator. The chairman shall distribute to licensees and operators and make availableto all interested persons a formula approved by the commission by which licensees determine the minimum bankroll requirements of this section. If at any time the licensee's or operator's available cash or cash equivalents should be less than the amount required by this section, the licensee or operator shall immediately notify the board of this deficiency. Failure to maintain the minimum bankroll required by this section, or a higher bankroll as required by the chairman pursuant to this section, or failure to notify the board of any deficiencies, is an unsuitable method of operation.
(Adopted: 10/87. Effective: 1/88. Amended: 11/90; 5/00.)
they already had a no frills casino in Vegas
Posted by eyesfor21 on 25-Mar-2004 12:24:56 (#7411)
it was called silver city
it had sd and db deck,with great rules
it was the only non smoking casino.
and always had loads of counters in it who all we give
each other the smirk hello
the pit would just let you do your thing..
it did fold and now sits empty across from the circus
before the silver city...
Posted by gehrig on 31-Mar-2004 19:29:02 (#7506)
it was the castaways. a couple of the dealers would count (aloud), along with you.
and, fwiw, the silver city was imploded about a week ago.
Re: Casino Bankroll Requirements
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Mar-2004 13:43:57 (#7420)
There's that word "reasonably" in there. All that means is that it has to be reasonable to a Nevada judge who's salary is ultimately paid by casinos.
This wouldn't be an issue at a table game like BJ because he wagers are limited and the payout per wager is at best 3:2. Nor is it a problem with progressive jackpots because these are funded by the players as you go. I could see it becoming a problem with certain games like Let It Ride, Roulette, or Carribean poker that have some very high ratio payout, variance could make a small house unable to honor a debt in cash.
Re: Casino Bankroll Requirements
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 26-Mar-2004 13:52:55 (#7421)
Crazy amount of misinformation in this entire thread.
To get real answers to many of these questions, go to some stock boards.
Look up actual Casino Companies Financial Statements.
Divide the balance sheet and income statements by the number of tables.
You will start getting a picture of costs per table and overheads.
To answer the specific question about bankroll requirements:
The Gaming Commission sets the amount of bankroll a casino has to have on hand at all times. They use a formula that takes into account the number of tables, table limits, number of slots, size of jackpots, etc., etc. Combines it with the Standard Deviations of all the above, and the chances of several big winners at the same time, etc., etc. They assure that a big jackpot winner, will get paid, and the casino has cash on hand to do so. It would look bad for the entire industry if that didn't happen, and news of a big winner not being able to get paid immediately became public.
That is the whole reason Binion's shut down a while ago, the IRS seizure of their cash made them fall short of their Gaming Commision cash on hand requirements. The Gaming Commission actually shut down Binion's, not the IRS.
Re: Casino Bankroll Requirements
Posted by toddler on 26-Mar-2004 14:59:38 (#7422)
Look up actual Casino Companies Financial Statements.
That is what I did. Because of that and some common sense, I found you cannot use the following formula: Divide the balance sheet and income statements by the number of tables.
You will start getting a picture of costs per table and overheads.
You would only get that cost if the corporation was only a casino (no other profit center data in the mix) and only offered blackjack games, no other table games.
My original post stated: the cost factors involved in keeping a blackjack game opened and fully staffed.
Re: Casino Bankroll Requirements
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 26-Mar-2004 16:44:38 (#7425)
Simple. Most financials have the income broken down by cost center (ie. table games). Find the percentage of table gross income vs overall gross income and you can start breaking down the overheads with that factor.
Concentrate on some of the purer casino compaines: PNK, AGY, ISLE, STN.
Re: Coming at it from both ends
Posted by toddler on 26-Mar-2004 20:49:57 (#7427)
AM - Understand your perspective which is working backwards from ending numbers. The result could possibly provide an approximate average per table, but only as a starting point. My belief is that if you really dug deep, there's much more to it.
I was looking at it from the perspective of if I was going to build a casino and how would I structure my accounting to determine a fine grain resolution of BJ related expenses. The luxury of already knowing my revenue and expenses would take all the fun out of it. :-)
Appreciate your input. Although, to what misinformation are your referring?
Re: Coming at it from both ends
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 26-Mar-2004 21:49:37 (#7431)
Yes, coming at it from the back end helps you with seeing expenses like building depreciation and maintenance, etc. Then you see what you are missing when trying to add it all up from the front end.
I guess most of the mis-information was in regards to bankroll requirements and license fees.
Some things you missed:
I assume the patrons will be wagering with chips. A set of chips aren't free, and occasionally need replaced, unless you want your greens to turn brown like the El Cortez.
Cards. How many decks of cards are you going to go thru every day?
Tables themselves. After a few drunks spill drinks on them, the layouts need replaced, until the tables are so beat up they need refurbished.
Besides dealers, pit crew, bartenders, cocktail waitress, janitor, etc.
Are you assuming some cross-roaders aren't going to come and cheat you blind? You probably need some Dustin Marks type undercover survelliance to catch the cheats. Security guards so your bankroll doesn't get robbed, or in case a drunk gets rowdy.
Play at the $5 table or the $15 ?
Posted by John on 24-Mar-2004 10:15:20 (#7379)
Lets assume I can get away with almost any kind of spread because maybe I can.
I can spread 1 to 40 at the $5 table with a ROR of 4 % but a std dev of 92.
The DI = 5.01 and the c-score = 25.14 winrate/hr = 4.641 dollars/hr= $23
or
I can spread 1 to 12 at the $15 table with ROR of 10 % and std Dev of 39
DI= 4.36 c-score = 18.97 winrate/hr = 1.7 dollars/hr = $25
Both situations, you wong-out when tc < -1 .
Which would a professional blackjack player choose to do?
Re: Play at the $5 table or the $15 ?
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 24-Mar-2004 12:36:58 (#7383)
A Professional Blackjack Player would walk away from both games, they usually look for a DI of at least 10 or more.
It is no fun (and hard to pay bills) making $200 bets in order to some where at some time, maybe, in the long run, if you don't go broke, earn $25 an hour.
However, if some one held a gun to my head, and FORCED me to choose:
It would be the $5 game. The $15 dollar game is only making me $2 more an hour, and I am increasing my risk 150%. Also, back to reality, the $5 game probably isn't watched as close.
Re: Play at the $5 table or the $15 ?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Mar-2004 12:57:58 (#7384)
If you can spread whatever you want and want to play all hands the $5 table is better because you will be playing $5 whenever EV is negative, and high as you dare when it is positive. If you can Wong in/out whenever you want it won't matter which table because you will never be playing a hand with negative EV. But no one can spread whatever they want so this is just theory.
Why is your DI so low? Sounds like you can work on your spread and play to get the DI up at least to 6 in a shoe game.
Re: Play at the $5 table or the $15 ?
Posted by John on 25-Mar-2004 07:54:17 (#7400)
The mayor said that a DI of 7 is what you should shoot for, but in simulations and on CVCX, I have never come close to this. I put in some worst-case scenarios like 66% penetration and that is what I use. I believe I have come close to it by simply backcounting everything, but I don't think that is realistic.
When I change the penetration to 75 % from 66% and only play counts above -1, the DI goes to 6.23 and ROR is 1 % on the $5 table with 1 to 40 spread.
I don't live in Vegas or Atlantic City but I do have about 20 Casinos within driving distance of me and that is why I use the worst-case scenario.
Re: Play at the $5 table or the $15 ?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-Mar-2004 10:19:00 (#7408)
No that doesn't sound right to me. Let me try simming it and see what I get. Please tell me: your exact spread (what count gets what bet) the game rules, and which count you are using.
Re: Play at the $5 table or the $15 ?
Posted by John on 25-Mar-2004 14:02:58 (#7413)
If you'd like, I can e-mail the file to you. It doesn't seem that I can attach the file in this post.
Here are the settings. I only simmed 6 deck and it took me about 2 minutes on a 2 ghz amd athlon computer.
Used CVCX
Settings
Basic Hi-Lo
6 deck
shuffle point 104 cards
90 hands per hour
table max 50
players 5
players come and go 0
your seat 5
DD on 2 cards
DD on any soft hand
DD on any hard hand
dealer peeks on 10
dealer peeks on ace
split to 4 hands
15000 bankroll
1 to 40 spread
backcount -1
minimum bet of $5
minimum chip size 5
optimize for bankroll growth
I get DI= 5.01 c-score= 25.14
$20.88 /hr
winrate= 4.177
ROR= 3.9 %
1.217 % W/L
forgot this too
Posted by John on 25-Mar-2004 14:50:39 (#7415)
Deck resolution: full deck
S17 DAS
split to 4 hands
No late or early surrender
Re: Play at the $5 table or the $15 ?
Posted by Cyrano on 25-Mar-2004 15:45:24 (#7417)
Try this:
Flat bet $100 and wong in at a higher TC (My RoR and win rate were maximized at a TC of +1). The DI and cSCORE might suffer due to more "downtime".
Re: Play at the $5 table or the $15 ?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 27-Mar-2004 00:20:03 (#7432)
OK the problems I see are: your spread is probably too abrupt. 1:40 is crazy, you might want to redo it with something you can actually play like 1:10 and 1:12. Where the breaks are in the spread is important. An excessive variance is probably the cause of your low DI. You are also playing at a game without LSR, and this can be really rough on your bankroll if you play with a big spread.
Other problem: which playing indexes are you playing? With High-Low you need 15-20. I play Hi-Opt II so I play 32 indexes.
Your EV is +4-5 betting units per hour. This is phenomenal, but the price you pay is a huge variance hence the low DI. If you have a $10K bankroll and you can get away with a 1:40 spread at a $5 game, everything you are doing is fine. Schlesinger's DI equations apply to the typical counter who is playing at or below the Kelly Criterion and you should be grateful that you are earning with a red chip what most players earn with a green chip.
Re: Play at the $5 table or the $15 ?
Posted by John on 27-Mar-2004 05:49:53 (#7434)
Unfortunately, there is only one Casino in my area that I know of that offers LSR. Is this a big problem? I believe that I am doing simulations with the Late Surrender rule unchecked and still coming away a winner. Not sure how well that will translate into the real world, though. How well does your data from Casino Verite match up with your actual playing in the real world, Automatic? When I have been playing at Casinos around my area, I do a lot of backcounting and no one seems to care. Also, I believe that I could spread outrageously and get away with it. The casino that I plan on doing this at doesn't kick out counters.
Also, Casino Verite says that I can beat an 8 deck game almost as easily as a 6 deck. The DI 's were different and it may take longer to get into the long run with an 8 deck game, though. I earned about $10 less per hour, too.
Bet the least possible. *NM*
Posted by Tom on 24-Mar-2004 15:42:28 (#7388)
Perspective on Comp/Accrual Points by the Unsinkable Molly Bloom
Posted by toddler on 25-Mar-2004 09:30:36 (#7403)
In a recent offline discussion concerning my frustration of the lack of comp/accrual points experienced recently by a large Strip property, I received this insightful historical explanation from the one and only Molly Bloom. In a rare event, indeed, she has given me her gracious permission to post her words here for your perusal and enjoyment. Have some Kleenex handy.
======================================================
When the Strip featured the El Rancho Vegas, The Frontier and The Flamingo--the first three Vegas Strip resorts in order of appearance--there was a conscious attempt to distance themselves as true carpeted palaces from their downtown sawdust joint brethren. Since that time in the 1940s the distance has only become more apparent and real. I could go on but time won't let me (anyway, I've always been an Outsider).
All to answer your question about Vegas--in the last few years formulas for figuring table game theoreticals have been radically altered by the bean counters who have enlisted their IT departments and corralled a few devious but knowledgeable casino people to do the dirty work. You get less for more in the ongoing campaign to turn tables into slots machines (a la Mindplay). The ripple effect has meant that most hosts have been relegated to a "Just say 'No' " policy. Shortly, the need for table hosts will be obliterated except at the uppermost levels. Gone the way of the coccyx. Gotta evolution, gotta evolution!
For a player at the red/green level, I'm sorry to say there is little hope for comp point accrual/ great hotel offers in Las Vegas. The situation elsewhere differs somewhat but LV has always been a bit different.
I'm just giving you the straight news. In the "good ole days" hosts existed to attempt to drive a red chip player into green-land and the greenies into the great black void and upwards. The powers that be don't care about your play any longer. They realize most players aren't going to progress into lifetime losers and will not waste millions marketing to the few who do.
In fact, when I went back to Vegas last week, several casinos had just initiated polices that limited comp point accrual to a brief 30-day window. That's right. You must use up your points within that time frame or lose them forever. There's little you can do if you are an infrequent flyer. Use 'em or lose 'em. And these two places market themselves as locals joints in certain respects.
I wasn't even supposed to know about this new policy--they don't announce these things with pride--but I specialize in having ears all over. I was warned about one place the day they had a meeting to nail it causing me to run right over to their gift shop and loot the place for gifts for all the kids. Mailed everything home. I left seven points in my account to make a point. Think they'll care? Nahhhh.
The larger Strip spas have gone to a dual comp policy. The player has a limited amount of available funds in her/his account. A larger percentage is withheld or "banked" by the casino. If a player wishes to access this larger portion, she/he must appeal/grovel to the proper authorities. In other words, if you wish to go to the coffee shop or buffet--no problem. But for fine dining or larger purchases, you need to ask mom or dad if you can have your allowance. Comps, good room rates, and all other goodies are handed out at the discretion of each property and owned by casinos, not the players. They have the right to change their policies, control the comps, or revoke them at any time. You have no "rights" to these. Of course, no marketing, credit monger, or host in her/his right mind (now there's an oxymoron) is going to proclaim this with pride. But it has always been true.
In the mad 90s, when casinos were sprouting like Spring blossoms in an unprecedented national surge, many current players got accustomed to gathering comps points and good room values like small furry animals, squirreling their points to use at will. They got used to easy policies. With the introduction of Harrah's national players club card, other large multi-properties succumbed as well, linking properties from the East Coast and Midwest to the West. The winds have shifted. Less for more.
Bottom line--they just don't care about you--or me. If you haven't gotten familiar with the concept, get used to it.
Comps were initiated as a way to fight competition and reward loyalty. Casinos of the new millennium view tables as a necessary evil and not much more. They aren't willing to spend any more than it takes to have you come and play. They want slot players and more slot players. We are a nuisance. Smart players have always been so. If my hosts all look at me sheepishly, embarrassed, and tell me there's not much they can do--and these people go way back with me, there's little hope for someone like you.
Most industry floor people and dealers are keeping their eyes focused on next year when Wynn's new hotel opens. Currently, there's a logjam. For the last few years (Nov. and Dec. 2001), since Palms and Green Valley Ranch opened, there hasn't been a new property of note that opened (The Cannery?). Many are hoping to get new jobs with Wynn which will free up their current positions. But I wouldn't look to Wynn LV as a savior for players. This is a high-end carpet joint, descended directly from the first three Strip properties with Bellagio as the most recent reference--not exactly red and green chip playgrounds for regular comps and room values. And other mid-Strip properties that will benefit from Wynn's opening--the Frontier, Stardust, newest Sands/Venetian creation, etc. are in the same position. They aren't going to welcome red and green chip players with open arms. They will tolerate limited mid-week action but will not spend much money or waste comp points to drive it.
Caveat emptor.
Best as always,
Molly Bloom
Re: Perspective on Comp/Accrual Points by the Unsinkable Molly Bloom
Posted by marathon slim on 25-Mar-2004 11:15:39 (#7410)
I don't know if I can believe much of that. From personal experience i find the exact opposite. (this through and including next week) I have seen great comps and promos for LESS than red and green players at strip properties. The Venetian has been extremely good about that. Maybe things are changing but I have not seen them yet.
Perplexed
Posted by toddler on 25-Mar-2004 13:05:27 (#7412)
Recently, I contacted a large Strip emporium's marketing department asking what action would be required for *one* nights lodging as complimentary. The answer: $85 a hand for 4 hours. When asked if someone played $25 per hand for 12 hours, the response was "$85 is what is required, but you could talk to a host." This particular store doesn't start ratings unless you are pushing consistent green.
Considering that the Venetian's room rates start approximately $200 more per evening than my residence of choice, I am somewhat perplexed as to how the Italians can offer room comps at the red/green level. Tough to swallow but not beyond the realm.
Re: Perplexed
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 25-Mar-2004 14:40:45 (#7414)
The Venetian is probably the exception to the rule.
It is one of the few strip properties that is not corporate owned.
If you shop around and look for specials, rooms at the Venetian can be obtained for $99 a night, far below the strip average for rooms of that caliber. I guess the bean counters at the Venetian don't realize they are supposed to be driving the rooms as a "profit center". Maybe some one thinks that people staying there, gambles there, and they make their money that way.
As it continues to turn a profit, the corporate bean counters at other properties will probably have to find other things to cut or charge for, in order to match their properties performance with the Venetian.
Re: The Venetian
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 27-Mar-2004 00:41:35 (#7433)
But I must say, the rooms sure are nice at the Venetian! My very first counting experience ever was there. I was betting High-Low and playing Basic Strategy, $25 shoe game. Accidentally used the word "Wong" at the table and nobody cared. Paid $300/night to stay there, didn't know anything about comps. But I left the place with more money than I came in with, after paying my hotel bill. I was playing there when Roy was attacked by the tiger.
I'll never forget those two nights! I've got a lot of counting ahead of me, but if I ever retire, I'm going to make my last game at the Venetian. And after my last shoe, I'm going to call the pit boss over, have him call security over, and I'm going to tell them what I've been doing, what it's all about, and how their place was the beginning and the end for me. I'll throw a green to the dealer, cash out, and ride like a cowboy into the dawn. Then who knows what I'll do as a profitable hobby.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7404)
All players affect the income side...
Posted by toddler on 25-Mar-2004 09:56:36 (#7406)
...not the expense side. The cost factors I outlined are to keep a table fully staffed regardless the amount of players. Considering most joints have table game hold percentages roughly floating between 15% and 25%, I wouldn't consider APs an expense item.
Re: I would add: Card counters ! Among the cost !
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 25-Mar-2004 10:12:15 (#7407)
I think it is not as significant as most people think. In the 5 - 6 years I've been playing, I've spotted only 3 counters.
I think for every $100 dollars won by any player, there is another 2 spectators sucked into the web of continues donation mode. I think a house needs winners. The problem is that the staff typically doesn't understand how to get from it the advertisment for which it can provide. If used correctly, winners can be powerful advertisement.
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