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A quick trip report
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Mar-2004 11:14:36 (#7439)
I was in LV for a few days ... a couple of high points ...
* Played a new max bet, higher than I had played before. It felt good and comfortable, I was amazed how easy it was, and look forward to more of the same.
* I purposely did not meet anyone on the trip. It was all business. Four days of non-stop playing. Finished the trip up 50 units. Out of the four days, I only played 3 hours of blackjack.
* Most importantly, the trip reaffirmed my committment to advantage play. There is nothing more satisfying in all of Las Vegas than taking money from casinos.
--Mayor
Re: A quick trip report
Posted by hinoon on 28-Mar-2004 11:21:43 (#7440)
Congrats Mayor!
Hope we hear a few more details after you've had a chance to let the echo of the slot bells fade a little.
Re: A quick trip report
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 28-Mar-2004 12:17:30 (#7441)
Welcome back.
Re: A quick trip report
Posted by ladykiller on 28-Mar-2004 13:10:19 (#7442)
So how big was your max bet where you didn't get any heat and was it one of the major casinos?
Re: A quick trip report
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Mar-2004 13:36:31 (#7443)
Max bet of $200 (up from $150), at a major strip property, wonging shoes.
Re: A quick trip report
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 28-Mar-2004 16:30:58 (#7444)
You were very luccky to win 50 $5 units in three hours. I guess not. That is only 2.5 max bets.
Re: A quick trip report
Posted by Learning to count on 30-Mar-2004 06:50:56 (#7456)
At least you can play Mayor. I'm done for right now. This year has been a flop. Personal family tragedy. Keep up the cause Mayor!
Re: A quick trip report
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 30-Mar-2004 07:29:27 (#7457)
Best to you and yours in your time of trials LTC.
Sincerely,
Re: A quick trip report
Posted by learning to count on 30-Mar-2004 08:27:47 (#7459)
Thanks...
Re: A quick trip report
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Mar-2004 09:25:05 (#7460)
I was wondering where you had gone.
I hope you will continue to post, LTC, and be part of this community, and get support if we can give it as you go through this time.
Best wishes to you during this time, you have my full support,
--Mayor
Re: A quick trip report
Posted by Learing to cope on 30-Mar-2004 09:55:51 (#7461)
Thanks Eliot. We will talk.
Follow up ...
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Mar-2004 11:03:00 (#7462)
One thing to be aware of in the advantage community is that the good games are known to the pros. If you are an amateur, playing these good games once in a while, there is a good chance you will be seen by a pro.
Such an incident happened to me. I was playing a game (I am the amateur), and quickly recognized that a woman at the table was a very solid advantage player with excellent cover (a pro). I said a couple of things to her in a quiet whisper about the situation. She also said several things to me about this game. It was clear that no one else could hear us, I thought we were discrete. I was getting some coaching on cover play even as the situation transpired.
Today I got a post from LVHCM (that I clearly cannot repost here, since it gives away too much information) that was not very friendly. This post detailed this situation and the problem of speaking about any AP information out loud. What the LVHCM had to say was extremely valuable to me.
I just wanted to report on this incident, since I can neither post LVHCM's words here, nor write back to him.
--Mayor
Re: Follow up ...
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 30-Mar-2004 12:06:57 (#7463)
I wonder why the LVHCM doesn't post on the Card Counter's Cafe, or on their own yahoo site. I would guess they just want to post to you Mayor and use your board like your private mail box in this respect. They obviously do not have much to say to the public since the soap box is always waiting for them elseware.
Why don't you Put together a team to exploit this advantage? *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 30-Mar-2004 14:37:44 (#7464)
Re: Why don't you Put together a team to exploit this advantage?
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Mar-2004 15:02:22 (#7466)
How could I possibly comment on this in public?
--Mayor
I Know, I just couldn't resist asking
Posted by SammyBoy on 30-Mar-2004 15:30:42 (#7467)
The problem you have is that you are too well known. I don't think that you can pull this off without some help. Can you find enough people that you trust to form a team? You need to make a big and quick score. I bet Chumash is crapping all over themselves. :-)
The secret of being a bore....................
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Apr-2004 13:24:44 (#7519)
is to tell everything.
-- Voltaire
Re: The secret of being a bore....................
Posted by revereman on 01-Apr-2004 14:10:12 (#7520)
I guess that says it all. (just kidding, Rob)
Re: The secret of being a bore....................
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Apr-2004 18:28:34 (#7521)
kid away cuz your kidding the Mayor ;> In this case any way...
Re: Follow up ...
Posted by Inskipp on 30-Mar-2004 19:34:40 (#7470)
Since there was good advice on cover, could you paraphrase and post it, for the education of us all?
And when are you going to start teaching? I'd take your class in a New York minute!
Re: Follow up ...
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Mar-2004 19:50:54 (#7471)
As you know, I advocate advantage play of all sorts, not just blackjack. If I discussed the cover for this particular game, it would compromise it, as most advantage players have no idea it can be beat. Sorry.
What the woman said to me was 100% correct, and I knew about the cover play already before she said it. I just wasn't doing it. It was a good reminder.
I am most humbled that the LVHCM took the time to remind me about correct table protocols for APs as well.
You see, what has got me into trouble from the start with the AP community is that I think I have the right to play good games any way I want. That's what "player's rights" is all about: the right to play, and the right to good games. But the pro APs know better. There are no rights for APs -- there is just skill and deceit.
--Mayor
Pit Critters are Reading This and Thinking...
Posted by SammyBoy on 31-Mar-2004 09:46:58 (#7479)
(1) The Mayor is full of shit, he's just screwing with us
or
(2) Oh Shit! The Mayor is screwing us!
Missouri Conditions
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 30-Mar-2004 14:51:14 (#7465)
First time post. I love this site. Have been using the Hi-Lo a little over a year. Have only been to local Indian casino about 6 times, and making a little money, having alot of fun.
I have a 3 day business trip that I am getting sent on to St. Louis. Any advice on where to play (best conditions)would be helpful. Oh.. and my bank roll for the trip is only $500 so I will be looking for nickle tables or less.
Re: Missouri Conditions
Posted by John on 30-Mar-2004 16:38:33 (#7468)
Harrah's near Ameristar (or what used to be St. Charles)
Ameristar, too.
both are about 10 minutes away from each other.
Re: Missouri Conditions
Posted by brandon harrington on 31-Mar-2004 04:16:31 (#7475)
I dont like playing harrahs or ameristar on weekends, the tables are ALWAYS crowded, and often times they raise the table minimums to 10 rather than 5. I prefer either the president or casino queen, the president is good, because the tables are less packed and is open 24/7., one problem is that there are a lot of continuous shuffle tables, but if you get a shoe table, you can do good. The queen is good too, but they arent 24/7.
Re: Missouri Conditions
Posted by SammyBoy on 31-Mar-2004 10:02:46 (#7485)
Don't you have to pay a fee to enter the Presidents? I was in St. Louis about 2 years ago and was not impressed with the BJ. Good luck to you!
Re: Missouri Conditions
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 31-Mar-2004 15:07:02 (#7490)
I think it's $2 to get in, but I'm not sure. Thanks for the responses folks!
Stay Away From Casino Queen
Posted by Big Cowboy on 31-Mar-2004 15:43:31 (#7494)
The Casino Queen is a terrible place to play. 50% penetration is never justified. Stay away.
Re: Stay Away From Casino Queen
Posted by John on 31-Mar-2004 18:04:15 (#7505)
I was at The President a month ago. I can definitely tell you not to waste your time there. One blackjack table that is dealt from the shoe and the rest are CSM's. That one bj table was $25 minimum,too. I stayed 10 minutes there.
Misery Conditions? *NM*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Apr-2004 07:53:43 (#7514)
Getting a Team Together- or joining one
Posted by ladykiller on 30-Mar-2004 18:14:57 (#7469)
After reading the comments on Mayor regarding team play, how does one get into a team? I myself am pretty much on my own except for a couple friends I've taught (spotters, that aren't always able to go). Do I or anyone else just try to get our BJ resume out to different forums asking to join a team? I myself have a 40k BR right now and want to join a bigger team where I can put my money in. What do we do?
Re: Getting a Team Together- or joining one
Posted by Sonny on 30-Mar-2004 21:09:35 (#7472)
> Do I or anyone else just try to get our BJ resume out to different forums
> asking to join a team?
A resume will not cut it in this line of work. The only way you will get onto someone's team is if everyone on the team completely trusts you with their money. Unless you are their immediate family (and often times not even then!) you will not get hired. Simply put, nobody is going to trust you enough.
Your best bet is to start a team on your own using friends or relatives that you trust.
Or...you could join MY team! Just mail me your 40K and I will gladly tell you where our next team meeting is...
See what I mean about the trust issue! I don't trust you and you shouldn't trust me, or anybody you have never met. It's not that I don't think I can trust you, it's just that I don't KNOW that I can. This is a huge difference when it comes to gamblers, and they will always protect their bankrolls first.
-Sonny-
Re: Getting a Team Together- or joining one
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 30-Mar-2004 21:53:04 (#7473)
Couldn't have said it better myself. There's this about team play:
1. Team play will provide extra profit.
2. Team play will provide extra risk.
How can you make extra profit? There are a couple of paradigms for team play.
One is the spotter method, with small players around the casino signlaing good counts. Another one is multiple players at the table with different jobs. One can be doing the Tens count for perfect insurance information. No matter what though, you have to be making enough to pay everybody and it is questionable if you can make enough extra to pay your team properly.
Now here's the risk. There is the matter of trust that Sonny mentioned. All you need is one incident with one player to destroy your EV. And you will have no recourse, except for the recourse that criminal type gamblers use which is violence. Do you really want to get involved with that?
Then there is the other kind of risk which is something happening to a team member. Unexpected things happen in the casino environment. The more people involved, the greater the chance of something happening to one of you and the rest will have to help him out. Even something like a car getting stuck on the highway, it's going to take away from play time. What's more, with the added money you have in play you are going to attract attention to yourselves exponentially. From pit, surveillance, and any troublemakers hanging around the casino. The troubles always come from the situations you didn't think of. This is why I prefer to stick with solitary play. It works and I'm already familiar with most of the contingencies that can arise.
Re: Getting a Team Together- or joining one
Posted by ladykiller on 31-Mar-2004 01:59:49 (#7474)
Both your points are very well taken and I have considered many of them before. Schlesinger in Blackjack Attack even required his team members to be polygraphed. I guess I'm part greedy in wanting to increase my wins quicker and part want to become more of a master at the game- and not the simple counting part; but the different acts, getting a shuffle tracking team together and taking over tables, mastering cover plays as Mayor was talking about and other intricacies that could preserve my play. People like Snyder and Schlesinger seriously need to offer training sessions for wannabe pro's. I guess there's something like that out there. I guess I'll just have to keep pushing my friends. But I'll always keep my out for a good counter at the tables.
Re: Getting a Team Together- or joining one
Posted by SammyBoy on 31-Mar-2004 09:58:45 (#7482)
I'm a solitary player as well. I don't know that I have a desire to join a team, but it would be nice to get together with other counters that I could learn from and associate with. Everything I've learned has been from books, the internet, and real casino play. I can only imagine where I'd be with a good mentor.
I've only run into one other player that I can say for sure was a counter. There have been 2 others that were possibilities. This is after 340 hours of play.
Re: Getting a Team Together- or joining one
Posted by Feep on 01-Apr-2004 10:31:47 (#7516)
Cashier's check in the mail! Oh this is so exciting.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7476)
I have no idea what you are asking/saying *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 31-Mar-2004 09:49:46 (#7480)
The best camouflage is stay away.
Posted by Tom on 31-Mar-2004 15:59:04 (#7497)
Alot of wacky crap happens out there in space,dont it?
Re: The best camouflage is stay away.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Apr-2004 07:48:21 (#7512)
You got it. With no gravity, the money just finds its way into your wallet! ;>
Analyzing a 'no hole card' game
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Mar-2004 08:55:59 (#7477)
Is the following statement correct:
In actual play at a full table, a possible 1/3rd of a deck may be dealt to the 1st 6 spots on the table including 3rd base having 2 cards and the D with 1. When the player at 3rd base finally has to make a play decision, the count should play a part in the decision process. The 3B player may be pondering a decision as the count changes during the round as play goes through the other players.
Also, is the dealers hole card considered in the decision process if the C increased or decreased considerably prior to the D actually receiving the hole card at the end?
Re: Analyzing a 'no hole card' game
Posted by Tom on 31-Mar-2004 15:55:03 (#7496)
It makes no difference what the game is because all decisions of card counting can only be based on dealers upcards,not the hole cards. The only way one could possibly benefit from the dealers whole card and make decision changes, is if they know exactly what the whole card is. It dont matter when a hole card is dealt.
The no hole card game(rules)is actually worse for a card counter,not better.
Re: Analyzing a 'no hole card' game
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Mar-2004 16:55:46 (#7504)
The no hole card game(rules)is actually worse for a card counter,not better.
What if the "rules" are the same?
It makes no difference. *NM*
Posted by Tom on 01-Apr-2004 09:20:23 (#7515)
Re: Analyzing a 'no hole card' game
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 31-Mar-2004 16:31:43 (#7500)
Think about this for a while:
Using your same logic, instead of a hole card, imagine it is the dealer's card that he is going to get when he hits. Your theory would make the Ploppies cry of "You stole the dealer's bust card!" and "Somebody has to take a hit for the table" theories hold some water. Think about it.
The reason third base has an advantage, is not because of when or where he gets his cards, but because he is effectively getting better consistent PENETRATION.
Both 1st and 3rd make their bets with the knowledge of X cards exposed. First base then plays his hand with (X + dealt) cards exposed. 3rd base gets to play his hand with (X + dealt + hit) cards exposed. 3rd base is always playing his hand with the # of hit cards deeper penetration.
Remember the deeper the PEN the more effective playing decisions become.
Re: Analyzing a 'no hole card' game
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Mar-2004 16:51:46 (#7503)
The reason third base has an advantage, is not because of when or where he gets his cards, but because he is effectively getting better consistent PENETRATION
True, 3B gets better pen before having to make play decisions on any bj game.
RE: 'No Hole Card' game
Is there any issue for a counter on 3B (C or otherwise) to consider, given that the D gets the hole card after all players are done and the fact that the C may have changed considerably? Also, what if the D shows 10 or A; how is this handled?
BJ21
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Apr-2004 07:40:26 (#7511)
same question on BJ21. I did enjoy Alienated's reply. Very similar to the one I almost posted yesterday but thought better of it.
Re: Analyzing a 'no hole card' game
Posted by Feep on 01-Apr-2004 10:48:20 (#7517)
No. I understand why you say this, but the hold card is just a card you haven't seen until after you make your decision.
Imagine it this way:
An arbitary number of cards will be dealt during the hand prior to all players completing their decision (including 3B). Let's call this number X.
After the first round in a no-hole-card game a little imp takes the card which would have been the hole card and places it at position X+1. This little imp is omniscient and knows exactly how many cards the players will use, so he always knows what X is. Why an omniscient imp wastes his time doing this we will never know. Little bastard.
This imp's first name is Random. His last name is Shuffle. His middle name is Godamned but that's only when you're on a losing streak.
It wouldn't matter if the dealer took the hole card off the bottom (barring cheating), randomly selected it from the middle, pulled it from a separate stack of hole cards he dealt in a little pile before the 1st round, or even took it sometime between 1B and 3B playing.
Feep
Re: Analyzing a 'no hole card' game
Posted by Inskipp on 04-Apr-2004 13:33:28 (#7536)
A different way to think of it, if this is helpful. There is a certain count when you make your betting decision. Then you see some cards, and the count changes.
Regardless of when the dealer takes the hole card, the count may be different than it was when you were betting. But the count is as likely to be better as it is to be worse at the hole card moment, whenever that moment is. So in the long run, how could it matter?
Re: Analyzing a 'no hole card' game
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 06-Apr-2004 20:35:29 (#7568)
My brain still fry's on this.
OK, let's say you are the AP at 3B and there are say 4 other players on the table; one round of cards has already gone by which happened to eat up 25% of the deck; now the TC is at zero; you place your bet, the cards come face down to all and you get a 3/5, D shows 4; the players play their hands and when it's your turn to make your play decision, the TC is now 6. Doesn't this make you feel more comfy to know that your card and the D's hole card will be dealt from an at least +5 pack (assuming Hi/Lo C)? Therefore, the mathematically correct play is to double.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7478)
Huh???
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Mar-2004 15:13:21 (#7491)
Am I clear, do you understand my explaination ?
No I don't understand. If you have something for me to learn, please teach it in another way.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7481)
Re: I have no idea what you are asking/saying
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 31-Mar-2004 09:59:29 (#7483)
1. Leave your money in the casino for a period that will not bring attention to yourself.
2. Give them more action than they ask for.
3. Use "smart" progessions to make you look like a gambler.
4. Play some of the other games that they do not prohibit you from playing for bonus cash.
5. robmcgarvey@rogers.com
Re: I have no idea what you are asking/saying
Posted by The Mayor on 31-Mar-2004 10:31:54 (#7488)
Rob, since the thread was begun, go ahead and say everything you want to say in this thread 8-)
--Mayor
Oh, ok. Maybe Rob E MacGravey can help you with that one. *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 31-Mar-2004 09:59:56 (#7484)
The MacGravey Train
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Apr-2004 07:51:38 (#7513)
MacGravey? hahahaha!! Just saw that now. "Join the online Gravy Train" You want royalties too? laugh
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7486)
5. *NM*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 31-Mar-2004 10:26:57 (#7487)
Re: I have no idea what you are asking/saying
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 31-Mar-2004 16:40:21 (#7502)
1. How long is that period ? Two weeks ?
One month.
2. More action... How much more ? 20 % more ?
No, not even that much. Just don't stop the minute you clear the bonus.
3. Smart progression... no problem... it doesn't change my Ev. but do they look at each of our bets ? I think only increasing my bets will increase the variance and make me look more like a gambler, won't it ?
Oscar Grind Progression comes to mind. Keeps things reasonable, but varies the bets. You just don't want to look like a flat bet grinder.
4. Other games... mmm... maybe... craps ? baccarat ? They are Ev taker !
Bounce around. Play the slots. Play a dollar or two on every game!
Video Poker comes to mind --- you might even find a near break even game.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7492)
J.S. my brain is starting to fry on this one
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Mar-2004 15:30:59 (#7493)
Let's see if we can get some clarification from the others on this.
I posted the following statement on another board. I would appreciate any comments:
I would think that a 'no hole card' game should be slightly better for a counter especially if the table is full and the counter is on 3B. The count for the deal of the dealers hole card will often be different than the count the bet was placed at. Therefore, it can and should affect the play decisions of the counter.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#7495)
I'm not offended J.S.
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Mar-2004 16:11:41 (#7498)
This is an interesting topic. I'm sure someone with more experience than I will chime in and sheed some light.
Where is everybody? :-)
Re: I'm not offended J.S.
Posted by revereman on 31-Mar-2004 16:15:31 (#7499)
I'm here SB but I have to go to a drugstore to get some aspirin to get rid of the headache caused by this thread. I have no idea what either one of you is talking about.
Too funny! LOL :-) I don't think I do either *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-Mar-2004 16:38:00 (#7501)
Question on Soft DD indexes and basic strategy
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 31-Mar-2004 19:58:49 (#7507)
There's a question about soft DD strategy that has been puzzling me.
Using Basic Strategy, DD A4 vs. 4 but not A3 vs 4.
Now, when you have A3, 1 of 13 cards will give you 21, 1 of 13 cards will give you 20, 1 of 13 cards will give you 19, 1 of 13 cards will give you 18, 1 of 13 cards will give you 17, and 8 of 13 cards will leave you with a stiff.
And when you have A4, 1 of 13 cards will give you 21, 1 of 13 cards will give you 20, 1 of 13 cards will give you 19, 1 of 13 cards will give you 18, 1 of 13 cards will give you 17, and 8 of 13 cards will leave you with a stiff.
Now I can see how certain counts can create a difference in these two plays because some low cards are counted and not others. And in a SD game it can make a subtle difference due to removal effects but BS being what it is I can't see why there should be a difference to a BS player in a shoe game at all. Unless I'm overlooking something.
Re: Question on Soft DD indexes and basic strategy
Posted by The Mayor on 31-Mar-2004 21:48:42 (#7510)
The answer is simple.
Recall that doubling means you can't draw another card.
With A-4 vs. 4, you really want to hit again if you draw an A, or 2, but you would be content to stand with any other card.
With A-3 vs. 4, you really want to hit again if you draw an A, 2, or 3, and you are content to stand with any other card.
Thus with an A-3 double, there are 50% more hands you wish you could draw again on (compared to an A-4), making the double that much weaker. Hence the count needs to be higher to justify doubling A-3, and you only double it against cards that are worse for the dealer.
The same general theme explains all the soft doubles A-2 through A-7.
Hope this helps.
--Mayor
Thanks
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Apr-2004 20:24:03 (#7522)
for the explanation. That isn't quite intuitive.
Be sure the read the Zengrifter Interview
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Apr-2004 12:41:53 (#7518)
http://www.cardcounter.com/Interview_Zen_Grifter.htm
Re: Be sure the read the Zengrifter Interview
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Apr-2004 21:55:08 (#7526)
Read it. Interesting, but please forgive me if I limit the advice I take from persons in prison! Suffice it to say that I would run like hell if I saw him at the table. I've also got to question the accuracy of his statement that it is desirable to play 100+ indexes, even with Hi-Opt II. Well, maybe in SD there are that many comp-dependent that are worth playing. I use 33 in shoe games and that gets me to 90% of the EV of full index play with lower variance. All in all a great interview though, I love the cover tricks! Flipping a coin, and such.
where can I find LV Bears matchplay coupon treatise? *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 01-Apr-2004 23:34:10 (#7527)
Re: Be sure the read the Zengrifter Interview
Posted by zengrifter on 13-Apr-2004 22:42:11 (#7616)
-- response -
please forgive me if I limit the advice I take from persons in prison!
-- i'm out, so you can feeel better about my advice.
Suffice it to say that I would run like hell if I saw him at the table.
-- thanks, you'd be doing both of us a favor.
I've also got to question the accuracy of his statement that it is desirable to play 100+ indexes, even with Hi-Opt II.
-- i said "60+"... and HO2 is an obsolete system
Well, maybe in SD there are that many comp-dependent that are worth playing.
-- HO2 doesn't identify "comp-dependent" situations, nor does
All in all a great interview though, I love the cover tricks! Flipping a coin, and such.
-- thank you, but if I see you using any of them I'LL RUN LIKE HELL! zg
Re: Be sure the read the Zengrifter Interview
Posted by John Lewis on 17-Apr-2004 04:15:20 (#7672)
The interview was a fantastic read, thank you.
Please post often.
JL
Re: Be sure the read the Zengrifter Interview
Posted by John Wesley Powell on 02-Apr-2004 02:12:19 (#7528)
Remember the quote from Darwin Ortiz "you can never cheat an honest man". With that said if anyone puts store by any of the drivel in that article then they are in need of serious help. Eveyone in prison is innocent. There was a conspiracy against Marcus from the beginning. In eveything he ever did its always some one elses fault. This guy wouuld attempt to sell Lucifer charcoal. He has no talent save for taking your money and making it his. Why Barfy would continue to hang with and promote this guy is beyond me. Birds of a feather? Remember in Barfs own words (in other posts on other pages on several different occasions)he stated he had made no money with that team. Only when barf went out on his own did he build his bankroll. As for being his mentor... Well I could learn to roll in mud from a pig I just choose not to. ZG (Marcus) is BAD news. For you your money and anyone he ever played with. Read the article again... He is whats wrong with advantage play. There is not one redeeming quality about this guy. I base this on first hand knowledge of many of the participants he has done business with. I thank the good sense that god gave me that I never was caught up in his BS. If he would have ever cost me any money he would not be the one in prison. I would be. Remember the huckster from the movie "The Outlaw Josey Wales" thats ZG (Marcus). JWP
the guy says 48 cards out of the dbl is good.
Posted by eyesfor21 on 05-Apr-2004 16:24:50 (#7550)
give me a break.
he will land back in the slam again.
Given the right conditions...
Posted by suicyco maniac on 06-Apr-2004 17:57:59 (#7566)
Even one round and a shuffle can be good.....SM
So true. *NM*
Posted by Syph on 07-Apr-2004 00:51:01 (#7571)
Nice
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Apr-2004 12:40:39 (#7588)
to see you around Syph.
Best,
Thx...
Posted by Syph on 08-Apr-2004 19:57:16 (#7592)
I`m still floating around.
Heh.
Its difficult to engage in discussions on public boards now, as my interests have moved beyond counting. That said, its still nice to see some regulars about.
Asia is nice, Nevada will be mine.
Best,
Syph
Re: Thx...
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Apr-2004 10:51:44 (#7594)
So very true. I think I hang around with my Jacob's Ladder hanging out of the clouds hoping to pull people up into the higher advantages with me. It's a great feeling to know you've helped someone out, and worked well together taking casino money. THAT - is addictive. Great working with you Syph (and you, and you, and you too...)
Stay Strong,
Email me *NM*
Posted by T. Hopper on 19-Apr-2004 19:15:20 (#7700)
Re: Thx...
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Apr-2004 12:53:21 (#7739)
WASSUP? COM PAI! griftzen@yahoo.com zg
i said...
Posted by zengrifter on 13-Apr-2004 22:46:50 (#7619)
..."26 cards" for 2-deck. zg
who in the hell is...
Posted by zengrifter on 13-Apr-2004 22:44:11 (#7618)
"John Wesley Powell" ? zg
Re: who in the hell is...
Posted by John Wesley Powell on 14-Apr-2004 02:21:46 (#7622)
can't wait to meet up with you, glad your out, you reap what you sow...
Re: Zengrifter Interview
Posted by John Lewis on 17-Apr-2004 04:28:15 (#7673)
Eliot
Thank you very much for bringing us this superb interview. It's one of the most interesting blackjack pieces I've read.
This guy is a wild man. They're out there.
His attitude towards blackjack was a very healthy one. It's a game! It's only worth the trouble if you enjoy it. The fun of the game is greatly enhanced because there's money involved. But this is no way to try to make serious money.
This guy can make infinitely more money with other endeavors, and he has. But he enjoys the great game that blackjack is, and he loves to play. It's a game on many intellectual levels, and he strives to cover every level there is, and create some new ones, too.
-- JL
BJ conditions in the card rooms in LA
Posted by theshuffleking on 01-Apr-2004 20:46:01 (#7523)
Has anyone ever been into one of those so called private clubs where one can be dealer? What are the conditions like?
Re: BJ conditions in the card rooms in LA
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Apr-2004 21:45:59 (#7524)
Don't. It's not blackjack they are playing. It's another game where the house takes a vig. Never played it and I don't know if it is beatable but I doubt it. If you are in LA take the drive down to Barona where they have real BJ with some very advantageous rules. Their hi-lim SD game has a 0.08 house advantage.
LTC
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 02-Apr-2004 13:58:43 (#7529)
Hope your hanging in there. You are on my mind bro....
Fureal...
Re: LTC
Posted by Learning to cope on 02-Apr-2004 18:59:18 (#7530)
Thanks Rob. I'm doing better. I'm still around. I miss playing but I cant get into it right now. It takes time.
Hi-Lim or regular?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-Apr-2004 02:23:12 (#7531)
I'm getting ready to play a $50 shoe game, and was wondering whether I'd be better off in the hi-lim pit or just a the $25 tables.
Here's a rundown of the situation:
Hi-Lim advantages:
Not crowded
The size of the action will not draw attention
Shoe/cut is 6/1.25 instead of 8/1.25
Hi-Lim disadvantages:
No mid-shoe entry
May have more surveillance
Regular advantages:
Can come and go as I please
Can drop down to $25 if I want
May have less surveillance
Regular disadvantages:
Tables usually too crowded to Wong around or play two spots
Large action may draw attention
Shoe/cut is 8/1.25 instead of 6/1.25
So what does everyone think, given these parameters is it worth it to go into the hi-limit area? And is a $50 counter more likely to get busted in there?
Re: Hi-Lim or regular?
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Apr-2004 00:56:27 (#7534)
The few times I played in high limit rooms the tables were hawked over by the pit stiffs big time.
Re: Hi-Lim or regular?
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 04-Apr-2004 01:06:16 (#7535)
Monkey,
With all due respect. If you are staked to play at this level. You could spend a week in Las Vegas for the cost of one of your top bets. This shouldn't be an issue, you should never need to contemplate playing another 8-decker again.
Wait a minute... you didn't buy one of those timeshares in Detroit from that guy with the red skin and horns, did you?
-Felix
Re: Hi-Lim or regular?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 04-Apr-2004 15:24:02 (#7537)
Your 8 deck game has deeper penetration bro. If you are spreading from $50 to $600 you're set, but if you are only betting $50 and droping to $25 you are wasting your time IMO. I don't think you gave enough info in your post. Please clarify.
Re: Hi-Lim or regular?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-Apr-2004 05:15:35 (#7539)
Well let's see, I know the percent penetration is better with 8/1.25 than 6/1.25, but you're not going to get as many good counts, if I am figuring this correctly.
Let's say a shoe had 100 decks and was dealt down to 1. Sure you get 99% penetration, but you are not going to get any desirable counts until most of the shoe is gone and on average you are going to spend the first 80 or 90 decks playing at negative EV. That's why if I have to choose between the two I'd rather play the 6/1.25 because in the 8 deck the first two decks are usually wasted anyway. Plus the incremental BS advantage you get with a smaller number of decks, tiny but worth something. On the other hand, there is more playing and less shuffling with the 8 deck and the added hands per hour are probably worth more than the 0.02% added EV.
If I play a $50 game, I'm probably going to spread $50-$500 with a Wong out at TC=-5 (HO2). If I'm at a $25 table I can drop down to $25 somewhere between TC=-2 and -4. So that is more like a 1:20 spread. Wonging out is really necessary in these kinds of shoe games where a bad count can stick around for a long time.
Re: Hi-Lim or regular?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Apr-2004 11:15:13 (#7542)
"Well let's see, I know the percent penetration is better with 8/1.25 than 6/1.25, but you're not going to get as many good counts, if I am figuring this correctly."
84% vs 79% is not much difference. The greatest advantage 8 has over 6 is the lack of a proper shuffle.
"Let's say a shoe had 100 decks and was dealt down to 1. Sure you get 99% penetration...."
An extreme example to make your point.
"Plus the incremental BS advantage you get with a smaller number of decks, tiny but worth something."
The 5% more penetration is far more important than the dif in EV.
"On the other hand, there is more playing and less shuffling with the 8 deck and the added hands per hour are probably worth more than the 0.02% added EV."
It is said you need 7 shuffles to make a single deck random (sic). 7x6=42 7x8=56 times. 2 is never enough.
"If I play a $50 game, I'm probably going to spread $50-$500 with a Wong out at TC=-5 (HO2). If I'm at a $25 table I can drop down to $25 somewhere between TC=-2 and -4. So that is more like a 1:20 spread. Wonging out is really necessary in these kinds of shoe games where a bad count can stick around for a long time."
IMO your spread is equal to the diff between your bet at +1TC and your max bet at +5TC. You can bet $5 at 0 and your spread is not 1:100. You are still playing a winning game with Hi Opt II, so that is what really matters. I suggest to wong in at +2 with $50, bet $25 below that to -2 then split, and go into your spread from there. What %BR per TC are you betting?
Re: Hi-Lim or regular?
Posted by alienated on 05-Apr-2004 12:02:33 (#7546)
Actually, Automatic Monkey has been very insightful here. DD' answered a similar question recently on Green Chip, pointing out that a 5/6 game is better than a 7/8 game, because there is less waiting for the good counts. DD' also mentioned that this fact surprises many people, which is not surprising, perhaps. ;-) I think Automatic Monkey shows great instincts to recognise this. DD''s answer was assuming a straight count game and play all. As you mention, Rob, shuffling issues might introduce other factors, but for a straight count game (and holding all other factors equal - eg, degree of scrutiny, feasible bet spread, wongability, etc), the 6 decker is better. However, the scrutiny question may be the most important in the present context. It's difficult to say before Automatic Monkey actually visits the casino, unless he can get in email contact with someone who has knowledge of the casino in question.
The Master
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Apr-2004 12:08:10 (#7547)
has spoken! ;> Great to see you Ali. Did you get my math question that I sent to you? I think it is in your yahoo mailbox.
Cut it out ;-)
Posted by alienated on 05-Apr-2004 12:52:34 (#7548)
Rob, I haven't received your message regarding the math question. I don't think I have a yahoo box. (?) Would you mind emailing the question to me? (Mind you, if it's too mathematical, it may require a mathematician to answer it. ;-) )
Regards,
Re: Cut it out ;-)
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Apr-2004 13:06:42 (#7549)
You have a TF@yahoo.com.. Can you send me your REAL emial? It's pretty simple, you'll run rings around like Saturn. Me, I'm just a Uranus with math...laugh That's why I continually overbet my bankroll and get away with it. Soon it will be so big we'll all get sucked into it and live happily ever after. That's what E=MC 2 means right? ;>
robmcgarvey@rogers.com
Spreading and Wonging for shoes
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-Apr-2004 21:17:26 (#7551)
Good points. I bring about $5K with me to the casino to play quarters but I can get much more if necessary. I'll probably scale it directly and bring $10K if I'm going to play a $50 BU.
My spread maxes out at +7 (HO2) which is like +4 in High-Low. I know you are a DD player mostly and most of the BJ theory out there was written by and for Vegas players who never have to deal with a 6D or 8D shoe, but that is all that exists on the East Coast so we have to live with it. We can't help the EV very much but we can control the variance to a degree and that's why I'm a little more conservative with the big bet. You can play 6D all night and not get a big bet out at all, or maybe just once or twice, and that plays hell with your variance.
One thing I am going to do though is Wong out more aggressively. Wonging in is just not an option around here for a solo player. Sometimes my Wong-out point will happen with only 1-2 hands left in the shoe, and I'm reluctant to leave before the shuffle. This is especially true when I've found a fast dealer with good pen. If I switch tables, chances are I will end up with a slower dealer with worse pen and that will cost me more than playing those last 1-2 hands. Maybe I will Wong out at -3 (HO2) instead. This will be nice because I don't know any playing indexes under -2 and I will get more opportunities to Wong out advantageously.
Re: Spreading and Wonging for shoes
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Apr-2004 21:32:30 (#7552)
That is the big advantage of Hi Opt II and other 2 level counts, gets you into and out of a game quickly. I experimented with 3 level counts and found that if I just adjusted the check out to -2 and tweeked my bets up a notch the Hi Opt II killed all of the 3 level counts using +3 for the 5 and the -1 in other places between the 9 and the Ace for Zen III Zen III Maximum (Z3M) and Hi Opt III. All on paper at 10m hands a shot....a million life times in a matter of hours...smile
I am slowly realizing who all of you guys out there REALLY are, and we aren't in Kansas anymore Dorothy. smile Goodtaknowya, goodtaknowya, goodtaknowya!
forget the 8dk you will lose
Posted by eyesfor21 on 05-Apr-2004 21:58:06 (#7553)
Fly somewhere decent and play real blackjack,cheap flights
are allover the place now.
Re: forget the 8dk you will lose
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Apr-2004 09:00:24 (#7555)
"My people" got in touch with me and it costs far too much to fly from Toronto to LV to play BJ. I can beat 8 deck if I find a trackable game, use a few dirty tricks (little white lies), but once again, I don't need to leave home to make money playing BJ. For me, most of this is totally academic now. I do enjoy talking about the way I used to beat felt BJ. It's like when you get an award, most people thank the same "person" first, BJ is that person in this sense.
Forget 8 deck? How about just forget it period?
To quote Arnold Snyder "You can't win."
Rob, what about Montreal-no? *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 06-Apr-2004 11:14:30 (#7557)
Re: Rob, what about Montreal-no?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Apr-2004 07:29:48 (#7584)
NO to someone that asked me if they should drive from NY to play the game. Told them to play Turningstone ot Akwasasne instead. If you live in Mount Royal, sure, that is if you can't afford a computer and a phone line. ;> If you have the bankroll to play 8 deck you have enough to get a smart setup for playing online.
Re: Hi-Lim or regular?
Posted by Feep on 05-Apr-2004 06:09:14 (#7540)
Get a team together and wong the hell out of the eight deck game.
Feep
6 DECK UK BLACKJACK
Posted by guest on 04-Apr-2004 19:11:14 (#7538)
Hi, im in the UK and was wondering what is the best way to beat the game here?
Re: 6 DECK UK BLACKJACK
Posted by guest on 05-Apr-2004 07:34:02 (#7541)
I see that the thread has had views but no replies. I would be grateful from ay response from profitable blackjack players in the UK. I'm familiar with Hi Opt I and Omega II, but most of the books I've read seem to indicate that it is not worth trying to beat the 6 deck game.
Well, if you could get away with a large spread bet, what is the best count to use for 6 deck blackjack? And how big should the bet be according to the true count?
A strategy I have come across is to count the number of As and 10s in 2 decks dealt of the top, and the sit in and play to the end of the shoe if this is less than 36. Has anybody used this in practice?
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Re: 6 DECK UK BLACKJACK
Posted by MrPill on 05-Apr-2004 11:49:40 (#7544)
This would give you 4 extra Tens in the remaining 4 decks. This would effectively be a "wonging" in and you could possibly have an advantage. Not knowing the rules or initial house advantage it is hard to say if this would actually have gained you an advantage.
Of course to maintain this advantage you would have to "wong out" when your ten (&ace) count goes back to even (20 per deck) or increases above this.
Wonging can be one of the more effective ways of beating a 6 deck game. The whole premise would be to only bet when you can get an edge and exit when you don't. This does result in a lot of backcounting the tables and minimal playing time.
Pill
Re: 6 DECK UK BLACKJACK
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Apr-2004 02:07:16 (#7554)
Don't listen to them, you can beat any BJ game with a strong enough spread. Not all games are going to be as profitable as downtown LV SD games, you have to work with the games you have available.
I'd recommend Hi-Opt II with the Ace sidecount as the best system to beat any BJ game. If you don't want to use a level 2 count and a sidecount, use plain old High-Low and tailor your playing indexes to be risk averse, i.e., don't put at risk an extra 100 pound bet for an expected 10 penny additional profit. The High-Low is almost as good as Hi-Opt II for shoe games but a few times a year I have a SD or DD game to play and I wanted to learn one system that will be very powerful in any situation.
Mind you that when reading American BJ books you guys have that no-hole-card rule over there, so you will never be doubling or splitting against aces and I don't believe you ever do against a 10 either.
The advice you got about Wonging is good, Wong in if you can, and definitely Wong out on bad counts. Also look around for dealers giving good penetration (no not that you pervert) because it can vary from dealer to dealer and a 6D game with 1D or better pen is very playable. Do you have any surrender options in the UK?
LV/Reno - Trip Report
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 06-Apr-2004 10:25:33 (#7556)
Started playing 2D on 4/1 at the Horseshoe in LV. It's alive and well! Didn't realize it opened only a few hours prior. However, nobody else in town will take their chips. After an hour, I was up 16 units. Then over to GN to add another about 20 units but then dumped all in about 15 min and went back to the hotel on the strip, again looking bad to the little woman.
Didn't get but about 5 hours to play while in LV. It was mainly a "for fun" trip with my lady and friends. I decided to keep my cover while with the friends. They just know I like to play.
4/2 - Played early morn 6D at south strip. Dumped again another 18 units. Looking very 'compulsive' at this point.
4/4 - Left LV and went to Reno. Hard finding a playable game. Lot of bad pen and tight rules on Reno strip. SL has decent 2D. Finally got back to the up side while at SL, which bought me a little more playing time with my lady. Couldn't wear out my welcome so I found some other stores off strip and finally caught a nice string of good variance. Ended up at 148 units positive after a total of 14 hours including LV. After the win, I walked the little woman over to some quality shops and bought her some new pants, a leather purse and shoes with part of the winnings.
BJ and the personal life are finally doing a lot better. ;-)
Re: LV/Reno - Trip Report
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Apr-2004 12:19:32 (#7559)
That's the way! Nothing like (a) good BJ to enhance marital bliss! Be aware that very few women understand this kind of game. Even something as reputable as active stock investing attracts very few female players. And the FOREX markets have a male/female ratio same as card counting.
SL is good. Very tolerant pit. If you play shoe at all, try their game, double on any 3 cards. It might change playing strategy a little though.
Other good Reno games: the $25 DD tables at Harrah's, the Cal-Neva SD game, and the SD game at Boomtown out on the highway.
Re: LV/Reno - Trip Report
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 06-Apr-2004 20:03:06 (#7567)
That's the way! Nothing like (a) good BJ to enhance marital bliss! Be aware that very few women understand this kind of game.
I couldn't have said it aaaaaany better. ;-) LOL
If you play shoe at all, try their game, double on any 3 cards. It might change playing strategy a little though.
I really do like shoe games. I tried this one with a wong-in for the last 50% of a shoe, but the pen was only about 66 - 70%, $25 min, DOA, 1 table. I didn't think to ask if they allowed DAS on that game. I guess I just assumed they did given it's a shoe. Do they? I think the play strategy should be different. I'm thinking the change might be to NOT double A-2 or A-3 against 5 or 6. Also maybe split 2's against 8. Maybe even no double on 9 against 3. Does anyone have a strategy chart for this game?
Other good Reno games: the $25 DD tables at Harrah's, the Cal-Neva SD game, and the SD game at Boomtown out on the highway.
Thanks, but no DOA at Harrah's. Tight for a $25 table. Even tight for a Reno $5 table. There are better games in Sparks too.
A.M., have you ever tried the truck stop place at the far east end of sparks? I forget the name of it. It starts with an "A".
Re: LV/Reno - Trip Report
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Apr-2004 22:08:45 (#7569)
No, I've never been east of Sparks at all. Never been to the Tahoe casinos either. I only get to Reno for 1-2 days max.
The SL shoe game, I believe you give up either DOA or DAS, but with the DO3 you more than make up for it and it's probably the best shoe game in the country as far as rules go, -0.31% EV with BS. Yes the soft doubles and even a few of the hards (like DD on 8 vs. 6) are going to be different. Maybe next time I go out there I'll do the numbers for that game.
Way to Go SB!!! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 06-Apr-2004 13:56:44 (#7562)
Stanford Wong finished last at his table
Posted by John on 06-Apr-2004 11:26:04 (#7558)
I'm one of the fortunate ones to get the World Series of Blackjack for free. I saw the one with Stanford last night. It was the best episode of the WSOB that I have seen thus far. Stanford was encouraging the player next to him to split 10s and when the guy hit and got a 21, he told him that he should have doubled it. I guess he was trying to put him on tilt. It was the most lively group that I have seen at a blackjack table. If Stanford had a big bet out, and the rest didn't, they were totally screaming at the dealer to get 20s and 21s. The guy at first base got 4 bjs. He got 3 bjs in a row. Jimmy ended up winning after the guy at first base, Previn, bet too much money on the last hand. Jimmy bet 100 dollars on the last hand. Stanford and the female finished last. The Casino guy, Nick, was next to finish. Then Previn, and Jimmy won. The whole table was talking trash to each other. It was very much like a poker game.
Re: Stanford Wong finished last at his table
Posted by MrPill on 06-Apr-2004 12:48:47 (#7560)
"Jimmy ended up winning after the guy at first base, Previn, bet too much money on the last hand. Jimmy bet 100 dollars on the last hand. "
Jimmy got luckey!
I believe that for the final hand Previn had around 9700 and Jimmy had 12400. Previn was to bet first. I do agree that Previn bet too much by going in for 5000 (I believe he should have covered Jimmy's lead), but Jimmy bet too little by only betting 100.
Previn would have won 1st if Previn won and Jimmy won.
Previn would have won 1st if Previn won and Jimmy lost.
Jimmy would have won 1st if Previn lost and Jimmy won.
Jimmy would have won 1st if Previn lost and Jimmy lost.
If Jimmy would have bet enough to cover Previn's gain from winning his hand if he also won, then he would have covered three of the four above situations.
If the above was the actual standings (I don't remember the exact numbers) then if Previn bet 5000, Jimmy should have bet 2400 and win 1st if both won!
I think I got the senerio right but I'll have to re-watch it.
Pill
What Channel is this on? *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 06-Apr-2004 13:53:50 (#7561)
Re: What Channel is this on? *LINK*
Posted by MrPill on 06-Apr-2004 15:36:01 (#7564)
Game Show Network. This is something that we get with the basic DirecTV service.
See link for schedule or go to www.gsn.com
Pill
Re: What Channel is this on? *LINK*
Posted by MrPill on 06-Apr-2004 15:39:29 (#7565)
Rob had also posted the schedule here a will back, see link.
Pill
Thanks *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Apr-2004 10:46:07 (#7578)
Re: Stanford Wong finished last at his table
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Apr-2004 15:36:00 (#7563)
My prediction is on BJ21. No name brand will win it, not a big name.
Re: Stanford Wong finished last at his table
Posted by JOHN HUSTLER on 15-Apr-2004 11:40:23 (#7656)
Anything thing can happen in that series? Wong is still one of the greats. I could split 6's against and ace all day and win that thing. Its a short term event remember, it means nothing.
Exactly My Point
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 16-Apr-2004 08:29:23 (#7664)
With only 30 hands to play, the greats really can't shine. The winner is not always a champion, a true great, s/he is just a winner. Winner of some decent money mind you. It really proves nothing but does sell TV commercials. It turns our artform into a sport. Knowing this, the odds are with me simply because there are more less than great players than there are really great players.
Counting Spanish 21
Posted by Strider on 06-Apr-2004 22:45:35 (#7570)
Is it possible to count cards at spanish 21 and get an advantage? I understand that there are just face cards and no 10s in the deck. However for instance couldn't one modify the high-low count by making 9's a -1 instead of 0. Certainly this wouldn't be as great since there is less busting and less naturals, but would the difference still make the game "unbeatable" by counting standards?
Re: Counting Spanish 21
Posted by phantom007 on 07-Apr-2004 08:47:57 (#7574)
Sp21 can be counted. Schoblete, in his book "Armada Strategies" uses the Hi-Lo that you suggest. However, you correctly note that there are no 10's in the decks...there still are J's, Q's, and K's. Schoblete records an overall advantage of 0.52%. However, this game is likely best used, as the above author suggests, for cover and comps.
There is excellent info. on Sp21 over on BJ21...if I get time later today, I will try to find the post, and do an addendum.
phantom007.
Addendum: GC Archives-Counting, Feb. 19, 2000...posted by Wild Bill. *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 07-Apr-2004 14:08:09 (#7581)
BEST online blackjack
Posted by thomas on 07-Apr-2004 05:09:35 (#7572)
Where is the BEST place to play online blackjack?
You need to talk to Rob McGarvey
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Apr-2004 10:45:32 (#7577)
Send him an e-mail.
Re: You need to talk to Rob McGarvey *LINK*
Posted by MrPill on 07-Apr-2004 11:07:48 (#7579)
And also check out his site.
I've dealt with Rob on and off for quite a few years and he will steer you right!
Pill
Thanks Guys
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Apr-2004 07:34:30 (#7585)
for the word of mouth recommendations. Contact me at robmcgarvey@rogers.com . I can send you to the right places and give you your "bankroll booster shots" too. ;>
Rob
Question about BE and PE
Posted by thomas on 07-Apr-2004 05:10:47 (#7573)
Hi all.
ASSUMPTION: We are going to assume we are all genious and we could count card using any counting system without any problem!!
According to http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm, the best way to count for PE would be to use the Uston APC. The best way to count for BE would be UstonSS, reverse Point, or Wong Halves.
However, PE is particularly important in hand-held games (1-2 decks.), while BE is best for 6-8 decks. Well that's what they say.
QUESTION 1: I don't understand very well PE and BE. Could you explain what do they mean? The small definitions from http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm are too short.
QUESTION 2: How does BE and PE affects my betting? Please don't tell me that "the higher it is the more you should bet". I am more looking for actual numbers than anything else and which one should you use?
QUESTION 3: So we know that PE is for 1-2 decks, and BE is for 6-8 deck. How about 3-5 decks?
QUESTION 4: What is the best way to calculate the true count? Should you use the BE or PE to get the true count, since they are based from some counting systems or another system? If you pick another system, which one is the BEST?
Re: Question about BE and PE
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Apr-2004 10:34:13 (#7575)
I think you may be confused. I'm not an expert but I will tell you what I know. PE is playing efficiency and BE is betting efficiency. Without a computer, it is practically impossible for a count to have a perfect BE and PE because it is just too difficult for someone to count using the exact numbers for the cards as they are removed from play (effect of removal of each card). So each count rounds the actual numbers to something that can be added and subtracted in a persons head. Because of this some count systems are closer to the actual advantage or disadvantage you may have when placing a bet, but are not as accurate when determining if you should double that 11 against a dealer 10 (or any other playing decision).
In single deck games there are fewer cards so counts that have a higher PE are better. In multi-deck games there are so many cards that the PE is less important because as an example the dealer can pull a 2-2-2-2-2-A for a 21, this can't happen in a SD game.
I hope this helps until some of the true experts can chime in.
Re: Question about BE and PE
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Apr-2004 18:07:44 (#7582)
PE is more important in SD games than it is in shoe mostly because you cannot spread in SD like you do in shoe. A 1:12 spread in a big casino shoe game is pretty standard; try that in a SD game downtown and see what happens. And related, being you have a lot more money out on high counts with shoe, the betting correlation becomes more important. There is also insurance correlation which again, is more important in shoe because of the size of the bets you have out when insurance is called for. If all you are going to ever play is shoe, High-Low is as good a count as any to use at least as a start. When you have mastered that, you can switch to Wong Halves which is very powerful and uses mostly the same playing indexes as High-Low so you won't have that much more to learn. Then if you are really ambitious, you can add an Ace. Ace-Nine, or a Tens sidecount to it to increase your insurance correlation. Then you will have a blackjack system the equal of the best in the world. The most important thing is, whatever you use, make sure you understand it and use it well.
The high PE of a count like Hi-Opt II can get a SD game into positive EV with a flat bet. In SD the removal effects of individual cards are magnified but... in most pitch games the cards are dealt face down so you cannot update your count for playing decisions as easily as you can in shoe. Even though I play mostly shoe, I use Hi-Opt II with Ace sidecount because it will serve me equally well when I get a chance to play SD or DD.
Thanks AM! I knew I was missing something. *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 08-Apr-2004 13:53:31 (#7590)
Re: Question about BE and PE
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Apr-2004 10:44:34 (#7576)
Actually it is BC for Betting Correlation and not Betting Efficiency. Sorry about that.
PE and BC have nothing to do with calculating the true count. Think of BC as a rating for how well a count systems performs in determining your actual advantage before the cards are dealt. Think of PE as a rating for how well a count system performs when it is time for you to make a playing decision such as should I split these 8's against the dealers 10.
Here's something else to think about. Each card as it is removed from the deck has an actual value. Check out the link below for a good explanation.
http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/Stats/correl.htm
Re: Question about BE and PE *LINK*
Posted by MrPill on 07-Apr-2004 11:21:50 (#7580)
Thomas,
Here is a good site for definitions of BE & PE.
I'm sure you can also find answers to alot of your questions if you go through these lessons.
Good Luck,
Pill
Re: Simple Answer: BE and PE
Posted by V-man on 07-Apr-2004 20:34:22 (#7583)
For any card counting system be it HiLo, KO, Uston APC or Wong Halves, there is 2 numbers associated with it, namely BE and PE, which refers to, for that particular counting system, how efficient you are betting (your money) and how efficient you are playing your hands (you hit/stand/split/double down not based on Basic Strategy but the count).
BE is the most important number (regardless the number of decks) because most of your money you make is based on this 'Betting Efficiency', ie you bet 1 unit when TC is below or 1, 2 units when TC is between 2 and 3, 4 units when TC between 3 and 4, etc ... You can rely on BE alone and ignore PE (using strictly BS alone to play your hands regardless of the counts) and still make money. However, most AP on this board and also elsewhere, would not stop at 'Betting' alone, all AP learn some index numbers, the most well known set called the Illustrous 18, or I18, named after Don Schlesinger book Black Jack Attack. For a given counting system, the less number of decks used the more important PE becomes. But even for single deck, and using the most complicated counting system, PE alone don't make you money.
top ten reasons to visit ha-ha-ha/binion's....
Posted by gehrig on 08-Apr-2004 10:19:14 (#7587)
1] that third deep fried twinkie went through your boiler like a torpedo and you need a w.c., pronto
2] you're tired and need to sit down and all seats at all joints within 10 blocks are fully "ploppied"
3] you are an "advantage player" and you want to try your luck at the only joint in town where the percentage hold at keno is lower than bj
4] to view the quintessential "pitstiff"... the only joint in town where the 'stiffs have longer bamboo poles up their bums than caesar's
5] to try to pass leftover lunch counter comp tickets (if it works, avoid the latest chili "soup")
6] to ridicule the chumps/brain transplant wait-listees, who are playing 6:5 bj
7] to play 20 year old slot machines
8] to scan the multi-colored rug for dropped checques
9] to get one last look at the big chandelier over the main bar
10] none
11
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Apr-2004 12:45:23 (#7589)
To cry in the rooftop pool about days gone by and your third degree sunburn you got while swimming around up there. The steak house, still going strong??
food venues...
Posted by gehrig on 08-Apr-2004 16:21:42 (#7591)
my "dining" experiences at the 'shoe were limited...
never ate at the gee joon or the steak house. ate at the barfet upstairs a few times...they had the same chili as the lunch counters. you could like, get thirds, for one price. then there was that coffee shop, $2 steak dinner after 10:00pm. mostly that line forming @ 9:30 or so had mebbe 11 cab drivers and one card counter. once tried to buy two steak deals but the crass waitress said i had to get back in line. by that time, the line was up the stairs, 'long side the first 21 table.
since the lunch counter menu has been gelded, i'll venture into the venerable basement coffee shop. last time there, "b-b" (before becky), i had a steak deal at the counter in back. the guy next to me was in town playing in some satellite poker tournament. he was boasting about how he had a handle on the game. when he was mostly done with the meal, he asked directions to the head (in the downstairs area just on the free side of the cashier). the waitress and cashier, are still waiting for him. i dunno, maybe he was sucked in by the undertow.
anyhow, since the nugget closed zachariah's eating house (monte cristo sandwich and a dr. brown's cream soda), i don't eat at downtown coffee shops. well, that ain't 'zactly true neither since i'm a semi-regular at the western and gold spike. usta be a reglar at the cortez but jackie jacked up the prices on a lot of the stuff at the 'cortez coffee shop to get some of the bums out. some left. last time there, the guy on the counter a seat or so down, ralphed into his plate. i think he musta been an advantage player/card counter polishing his act. his shtick was a bum with a 2nd degree puss full. and just like "freddy the fainter" (dirty harry), in this case, security tossed him out. best is that they didn't even slow down past the cashier. i'll have to work on that "barf on demand" move. might work every once in a while, like if you had a split with dd's and the pitcher built a 21. any respectable pitstiff oughta call the hand dead, dontcha think ?
Gross behavior
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Apr-2004 22:54:48 (#7593)
Good idea! It might be handy to be able to vomit on a shoe that has gone bad. Wonging out with a twist. The only problem is they will never serve you with alcohol again in that place if you get sick. Well not the only problem; they could assume that you were creating a distraction as part of a cheat team and hawk you for the rest of your life. Last week I was at a table and a woman started rubbing her nipples with the cut card and eventually lifted her shirt. I got out of there, let surveillance pay attention to her table and I'll play at another one. (Maybe directly across from hers so I can watch.)
Off-duty dealers have told me stories of people who would urinate on the floor rather than leave the table. (I guess that's one way to preserve the "flow".)They say this was a problem in the early days of AC when a lot of CG's would show up in one small place. Still today I've heard tales of people whizzing in coin buckets rather than leave a slot because they are convinced it is ready to pay.
Re: food venues...
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Apr-2004 11:00:57 (#7595)
Well, hate to say this, but I can puke at will. I can thank two solid years of chemotherapy for that little trick. I just have to recreate the events in my mind, and toss my cookies. Even after 30 years. I too like to scam free meals more for the fun of it, but I do like to spend large when I feel the dam is ready to burst.
Rob
Hey Stealth Bomber
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Apr-2004 23:34:00 (#7596)
Hey man I just had a trip like you had recently. Took my girlfriend to my favorite thick carpet joint, had dinner and a room all on my comps. Then she watched me win 78 units in about 3 hours! Just to emphasize the point, I gave her the $1K I ratholed to cash in so I wouldn't have to cash more than I colored out for. She went to the spa and got a manicure, all on my comps, and the next morning she was amazed to see that I still had a crateload of comps left.
Met a really funny counter at the table too. His face lit up when he saw me not split A's vs. A on an even count. He was up about 100 units in the same timeframe. Can't figure out what he was using though, might have been an unbalanced count.
Re: Hey Stealth Bomber
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 11-Apr-2004 10:38:42 (#7598)
Way to go A.M.! Ahhh, you have found guys like us are'nt playing just for $. I found that a nice win and giving her some B. Franklins for cloths shopping, buys me loads of freedom to play and more really good sex. ;-)
I just need to figure a way to jump on the comp train like you and some of the others. My barrings came in my past only when using a tracking card. Therefore, I've done everything I can to NOT use a card in most of the places I play. However, recently during my negative variance swing I opted for a couple of cards. I should eventually get some free rooms I guess. I have found it's possible to get a card after or during a losing session. Also, I never use one at the start of play. I wait 'till I'm down some and having to buy in for more before I 'remember' to use it.
Re: earning and using comps, barrings
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Apr-2004 22:57:09 (#7602)
Well that's about the size of it. Southwest= good games + heat and barrings. Northeast= lousy games + minimal heat if any. Take your pick, it probably works out the same in the long run but you need to attack the game in different ways.
Now for me comps work out to about 20-25% of my EV so there is no reason for me to sacrifice them. They pay for all my cost of doing business: car expenses, meals, cover play. There is one Indian store where comp points can be used at all the reservation side businesses, including the gas station, and that makes them as good as cash. Plus, I've been told that not having a player's card brings more suspicion on you than any record on the card could. So I get cards where I play and use the comps as quickly as I can in case I get barred and lose them.
I'm not a fan of doing or having anything illegal when out playing but I'm considering getting some fake ID for getting and using comps. They ask for a DL when getting a comp card and when redeeming comps, but not when playing. So I can bring the fake DL and the card with me when I am planning on spending comps but just the card when I am just playing. That way if I get barred or Griffinized I can just discard it and start anew. Now the problem you would have is explaining to your wife why you have to check into the hotel under an assumed name.
It also helps to have a lot of action on the player's card other than BJ. There are some full pay 9/6 VP machines where I play that are perfect for cover. A little craps, a bet or two at the sports book, and I look like an all-around gambler unless they are paying attention to the amount of action I actually give each game. Every casino has a certain amount of apparent advantage play they will tolerate before they get involved, and I'm now experimenting with finding out what everybody's limits are so I can tune my game to stay within their limits and still make a profit.
Double-Down A,10???
Posted by phantom007 on 11-Apr-2004 10:13:25 (#7597)
Probably a stupid question, but I will ask it anyhow.
In side-show games, such as SF21, Single21, or God-forbid, 6:5 BJ, wherein most BJ's pay-off at even (or nearly even) money, are there times, i.e., counts, when it is advantageous to DD your BJ rather than take the payoff?
Even at a neutral count, your even-$ BJ has about a 92% chance of winning, 8% of tying, and 0% of losing. However, in my simple mind, it would seem that in strongly Pos. counts, a BJ vs. Dealer Stiff upcard (4,5,6), DD would be the more advantageous play.
Thanks in advance.
phantom007.
Re: Double-Down A,10???
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 11-Apr-2004 10:47:02 (#7599)
Heat is a big issue to consider.
With a wild and crazy act at the table and a D sort of 'double daring me', I've doubled two soft 21's after split tens and caught tens on each. Left soon after.
joint procedures...
Posted by gehrig on 11-Apr-2004 12:15:02 (#7600)
each joint has specific dealer procedures relative to "announcing" certain actions. some require announcement of predetermined level buy-ins, checque changes, color-ups, significant raises in wagers ("checques play"). some shoe games still require announcement of shuffle-ups ("rolling"). checque changes of even $5 require announcement/permission at the western. black checque changes at mirage +, do not. some announcements require a pitstiff response ("permission"), some do not, but are merely advisory.
to this point, *most* require announcement of player: hard 12 double downs or soft 20 (or 21) double downs. if the dealer didn't announce the natural dd, could be that the dealer was lax, could be that the house's procedures didn't require it, or could be that the game was being hawked by surveillance already.
don't know if *any* play at a sf21 table would earn even a raised eyebrow by the 'stiffs since most seem to think that the game is unattackable, short of cheating.
at a "normal" 21 game, only a superior act, or a quick exit seems in order.
Re: joint procedures...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Apr-2004 20:37:14 (#7601)
In a regular 21 game, those kinds of plays should never be done by a counter anyway. Even in a shop that lets you DD on a natural, I can't see how that would benefit the EV.
Now in a place that has the DAN or DA3 rule, DD on a drawn soft 21 against dealer 5 or 6? That's a different story, probably enough ploppies do that where it wouldn't draw inordinate attention, but the count would have to be huge.
Playing conditions in Detroit
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Apr-2004 14:13:45 (#7604)
I count 3 casinos in the Detroit area. Anybody ever play there- what games and rules do they offer? Worth a 2 hour flight?
Re: Playing conditions in Detroit
Posted by SammyBoy on 12-Apr-2004 15:16:41 (#7605)
AM,
I've never been there, but I have not heard any favorable reports.
Re: Playing conditions in Detroit
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 12-Apr-2004 15:25:18 (#7606)
There are 4 casinos in that market if you count Casino Windsor. Motor City, has 6 deckers and allows RSA. If you have the patience of Christ, you can attempt to play there. I think they have a really crappy DD game, too.
Main floor tables at the other 3 are 8 deckers (No RSA, No Surrender DAS) and CSM's. The best pen for the 8 deckers is at Greektown last time I checked. This is consistent with CBJN, too.
All places in this market close tables the second the crowd thins, so wonging in doesn't really fly. However, I've wonged out and in just sitting there all evening saying: "I'm just sitting this one out" with no better excuse than that, at the 10-120 level, and I've never had a problem.
Also table minimums jump to $25 bucks on peak times with all the tables full. I think the MGM keeps some 15 ones open all the time. Don't go to any of these places on a weekend night, you'll be wasting your time.
High limit room at MGM has 6 decks with about 1.75 behind the plastic. I have no info on the high limit areas of the other two stateside places.
The High limit room at Windsor is probably the best game. Six decks with about 1.5 cut out. If you are staked for a $20 min. bet or higher, go in the wee hours and find a $25(Can.$) table. If you find an empty $50 table they'll often drop it to 25 for you. Beware the currency conversion. %4 goes away if you convert U.S. to Can. then back again. You might need to play for a few hours before your EV earns the exchange rate.
-Felix
Re: Playing conditions in Detroit
Posted by MrPill on 14-Apr-2004 12:13:14 (#7634)
"Worth a 2 hour flight?"
Is it a free flight?
Most of what Felix says below is correct. I play there because it is the closest game that I have. I have not seen them close down tables before so you are able to do some wonging in the AM during the week.
The double deck (bad rules) was removed from Motor City about 8 months ago and it is all 6 deck now. The other two Detroit casinos have all 8 deck on the main floors. MGM has the worst penetration.
I find the only time to play is early morning (before 11AM) and after that it gets iffy due to the crowds even during the week. Table minimum go up throughout the day and the crowds keep on playing. You can hardly play for less than $25 on the weekend evenings.
They have a lot of bad players that get irrate at times for some of the count driven plays I make.
If I was flying, I would fly somewhere else. None of the Detroit Casinos have a hotel attached. Greektown has one in the same building complex.
Avoid the area during a hockey game or home ball game (football or baseball).
Pill
Casino Strike in Windsor!!!!
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 17-Apr-2004 17:51:14 (#7676)
Casino Windsor is dark because of a dealers strike. So, don't go there unless you call first!!
-Felix
ACE/10 FRONT COUNT
Posted by JOHN HUSTLER on 13-Apr-2004 09:01:51 (#7608)
Im looking for the easy way out. I just read Fred Renzey's book about the ace/10 front count. Having a .25% advantage over the house by tracking a few cards with a 1-6 spread appeals to me. I was wondering if this method can be simmed so we could somehow increase our e/v. Thanks.
Re: ACE/10 FRONT COUNT
Posted by zengrifter on 13-Apr-2004 22:20:54 (#7614)
Don't waste your time with it, go with KO-Rookie instead. zg
Welcome back!!! *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Apr-2004 00:14:17 (#7621)
Re: ACE/10 FRONT COUNT
Posted by Learning to count on 14-Apr-2004 09:22:02 (#7625)
Ahhhhh the infamous ZG! Heeeeeeeeeee''''sssss Back. Welcome back.
Re: ACE/10 FRONT COUNT
Posted by JOHN HUSTLER on 15-Apr-2004 11:35:17 (#7655)
What is the KO-ROOKIE? Where can I learn it? Thanks.
Re: ACE/10 FRONT COUNT
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Apr-2004 22:28:04 (#7723)
In 'Knockout BJ' by Olaf Vancura. zg
One card after split aces
Posted by Newbie on 13-Apr-2004 10:35:30 (#7609)
The only game around where I live is 6D and only allows one card after splitting aces and has fairly low penetration (3/4 maybe). You can still DAS and split up to a total of 4 hands. Is one card after splitting aces a common restriction? I imagine it isn't a huge deal since it is a rarity, but you lose the ability to hit and double down so I'm sure that gives the casino an extra few fractions of a percentage. Sorry for any ignorance I might display in this post, but I'm just getting into BJ and want to play more than the basic strategy. I've been using a basic hi-lo system at this game, but there are usually 7 players since it's so busy and with all the restrictions and 6-decks it has not been profitable.
Re: One card after split aces
Posted by zengrifter on 13-Apr-2004 22:33:27 (#7615)
-- my responses are imbedded -
The only game around where I live is 6D and only allows one card after splitting aces and has fairly low penetration (3/4 maybe).
-- 3/4 is playable, avoid playing neg-counts as much as possible.
You can still DAS and split up to a total of 4 hands. Is one card after splitting aces a common restriction?
-- its the standard rule.
I'm just getting into BJ and want to play more than the basic strategy. I've been using a basic hi-lo system at this game, but there are usually 7 players since it's so busy and with all the restrictions and 6-decks it has not been profitable.
-- avoid betting on neg-counts. zg
Re: One card after split aces
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-Apr-2004 22:48:19 (#7620)
Yeah it's a crappy rule, but you'll find it in most games. Sounds like a pretty standard Northeast game you are describing. You can make money at it, and believe me, I do, but it's a lot of work. Slow and steady, Wong around, don't get frustrated. There are better systems than High-Low but you can make money with High-Low just fine.
Must read --
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Apr-2004 13:45:24 (#7610)
http://biz.yahoo.com/fool/040412/1081797540_1.html
Re: Must read --
Posted by Big Cowboy on 13-Apr-2004 15:34:00 (#7611)
Mr. Mayor, that's all information most of us on this site know very well already. The issue is to get this information out to the masses, so they know that they are essentially playing a sucker game. Personally, I feel no sympathy for anyone who is stupid enough to play a game with these rules. It's amazing to me that people would throw their hard-earned money and have sucker branded on their foreheads by playing 6:5 (21). I can't even call it blackjack since it isn't. Why don't people do a little research before going to Vegas? It must be a whole lot of "fun" to lose money.
Re: Must read --
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Apr-2004 16:33:57 (#7612)
The point of my posting the link was not to inform the very informed readers of this site about the menace of 6:5, it was to point out that the fight against it is gaining increasing support in the media.
I ask all the readers to contribute to the fight against the decline of blackjack, in whatever way works for them.
--Mayor
educating the masses is a daunting task indeed...
Posted by gehrig on 13-Apr-2004 21:51:36 (#7613)
try lurking on some of the "ploppy" boards. thereon, lately, are recurring threads about the 6:5 21 game. these threads are sometimes initiated by "advantage" or at least, basic strategy players. the responses by many message board "regulars" are astounding. often the response is that the extra edge is small and they go to lv to lose anyway. others state that the casinos have to make money to be able to offer all the other attractions. though the joints' holds hover around 16-20% on 21 games, these punters apparently think that's not enough. oddly, these same punters will whine about some bank of 9:6 vp games being 86'd in favor of 8:6 pay tables.
good news is that with an apparent, bottomless pit of such visitors, lv joints will continue to prosper. my taxes will stay reasonable. bad news is that as long as the joe sixpack punters fill those 6:5 game seats, the joints have to maintain, possibly expand, the number. worst case scenario is that those games will predominate, making room for the next "advancement"...the even money snapper game.
so far, not seen in these latest threads is a reference to the "hold" percentages of nevada casinos for the 3:2 21 games. perhaps if these same, usually vp players in the main, were aware of the huge hold already on those 3:2 games, they'd get fired up when the joints are apparently trying to cross 25% hold with the 6:5 payouts.
Re: educating the masses is a daunting task indeed...
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-Apr-2004 09:00:26 (#7624)
This is SO true, even within the AP community. We all search for a game we can beat, pick BJ poker, sports of Tbred horses, or some combo of the same. Then you see an amazing opportunity, test it, see that it works and think, HEY! I've got to tell people about this! We all have had these feelings. I'm sure we have all tried to explain to a family member or spouse about our BJ edge. Oh how exicted we were, and oh how boringly they took our excitment. Fear of the unknown, getting the standard programmed replies, it is disheartening. How do you break through to the people? To smart minded AP's too?
For each person it can be a different stimuli. Some people just need to see the money. "Show me the money!" ;> Some need to know someone else that they trust has tried it and succeeded. Some just need a run through the math of it all. Or it could be a combination of these and other factors. Some players just like to play the game they already know. A BJ counter has more brains than a slot fiend but can be just as stuborn, if not worse, when you try to present them with the plain and simple facts. It is the herd mentality. It is on BJ21 (where this message was originally posted) and other boards, and alive in 6:5 Las Vegas casinos. Fortunately there is, let me call it a silent minority, mixed in with all the cud chewers, that can be reached, or have already gone for the upgrade.
I'm sure if you were in a casino and you found a BS player looking for a table you could convince them to go for the 3:2 table instead of the 6:5 one. You have to be present and available. If you could help one person a week I'm sure you would feel happy with yourself. (I know that I do) Maybe the next time you are out playing you will take the time to teach one player about the evils of 6:5 BJ.
Unfortunatley no one really cares about our 6:5 problem. You will have to be like Greenpeace and go pirate on them before you will get any attention. There is also a problem with what motivates you and what you have to gain from it. I think we want to save 3:2 for our own good, not for the sake of the masses. There is a big compassion level difference to be found between saving 3:2, and a species of whale, or dolphins from tuna hunters. I also think that other players are jealous of our ability to beat the game, and would rather we couldn't win and join the herd of cud chewers. It is easier for them to see us as cheaters rather than skilled players and join the fight for better games. I think all you have going for you is competition in LV. There will always be a 3:2 game to play........
that, i've done...
Posted by gehrig on 14-Apr-2004 10:10:50 (#7628)
every day or so, when i visit a joint for somesuch reason, i'll casually comment on the legitimacy of a 6:5 game. and, i always look for a green table/player to express the comment. perhaps if at least the green + tables/players are chased away or come out of their coma, the joints *may* 86 the short pay tables, or at least offer them only on the low min tables. that's the most likely scenario... offer the sh*tty rule games on the cheapie tables. that'd make sense, same as the low min tables are the first to be converted to the 6 or 8d shoes. hey, add a celeb impersonator dealer, or focus the game in a "party pit", and the unannointed players will fill the stools. remember that the low end tables, those which historically hold $5-600/day, are the first to be "tightened up" or 86'd in favor of the slot department's use.
long run result should be that the "big" games will be maintained @ 3:2, but will earn dedicated surveillance.
that's the way i'd lay out the 21 games.
Re: educating the masses is a daunting task indeed...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Apr-2004 00:31:06 (#7647)
And it helps them more than it helps us, come to think about it. Sure a 6:5 game sucks for us but a counter can still beat it in SD. The question is: why would you want to. But even a Basic Strategy player (I don't consider that a ploppy) has 4 times the disdvantage, and can no longer turn any profit with his comps.
Re: Must read --
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-Apr-2004 22:44:06 (#7617)
Read it. It might help put the nails in the coffin of 6:5. Remember BJ rules used to be much worse than that and people did stop playing and the games did get better. And these days, casinos have much higher overhead and can afford to lose players even less. It'll get better.
Re: Must read --
Posted by SammyBoy on 14-Apr-2004 09:49:46 (#7626)
I agree with you AM. When these ploppies realize that $100 lasts them 1 hour instead of 3, it won't take long for the game to die. I was in Mississippi a few months ago and saw that most of the tables were pretty full. I saw an empty single deck table and my mouth was watering. When I got a little closer I saw the 6:5 sign. I asked the dealer "Why should I play this game when Bj only pays 6:5?" He just shrugged. I continued to watch the table while I found a better place to play. The ploppies would come and go, but no one would stay for more than a few minutes. Time will tell, but I believe that 6:5 BJ will not last.
To Rob and Mr. Mayor
Posted by Big Cowboy on 14-Apr-2004 15:48:22 (#7639)
No one said that educating the ploppies would be easy. But if there is no change in the economics (in other words the masses playing bad table rules), then there will be no change for the better. I don't think that people on this board are vouching for keeping the good rules only for themselves. It should be obvious that advantage players are a small minority of gamblers. We are mere gadflies. But we could become more if we, yes, educate even only one person a week. One thing to look out for on the message boards, are possible casino employees who play up 6:5, just to try to make bad rules the norm of thinking amongst the ignorant.
Re: To Rob and Mr. Mayor
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Apr-2004 16:00:17 (#7640)
Good points, thanks!
"No even money."
Posted by Freddie Kruger on 14-Apr-2004 21:25:31 (#7645)
What will really drive away the ploppies is when they find out they can no longer get "even money" when they have a blackjack and the dealer has an Ace showing. :> HA! HA!
Re: To Rob and Mr. Mayor
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 15-Apr-2004 08:25:26 (#7652)
All you can hope for is that they keep making stupid mistakes that cost the casino money. We can tell them that will happen, but the bean counters have to see the results, THEN sell the 6:5 table sign on eBay to recoup their losses...smile
Cough... Cough.... Gag... Expert Opinion? Long
Posted by John Wesley Powell on 14-Apr-2004 02:25:29 (#7623)
http://www.casinoenterprisemanagement.com/viewCem/viewArticle.php?id=178
Skilled Blackjack Players - Part I
By Jim Goding
A good deal of controversy attends the subject
of how a casino should handle skilled players at blackjack. The debate is partially based on lack of knowledge or, worse, misconceptions on the part
of surveillance, security, and pit management.
A considerable amount of potential liability attends the issue as well, depending upon casino policy and its handling by personnel.
The handling of very skilled players should be a matter of policy in the casino, decided at the highest levels of casino management. Policy on this matter should be, at the very least, checked out by casino legal counsel. Depending upon the policy chosen, specific procedures should be devised for handling players who have attained a level of skill which makes them less than desirable as customers.
So, let's start off with what we are talking about:
* What is a skilled player?
* How does he affect the casino?
* What are the potential liabilities involved?
First off, we are not speaking about card counters alone. Skilled play involves the ability to count cards, change play tactics and betting patterns according to the value of the cards remaining in the deck, and maintain a level of discipline while doing so that negates the idea of recreational play. In today's casino, those who used to be called card counters seldom operate effectively as single players. Single players, by their level of skill and discipline alone, betray themselves. A skilled player stands out because his betting pattern and tactics (decisions on how to play specific hands) follow a pattern that cannot vary from a very predictable behavior, without the player losing the small advantage he gains over the house. Optimum betting, according to deck value, combined with the necessary decision variations and other tells, makes such a player stand out from the normal crowd of recreational and mostly unskilled players.
Thus, the successful players most often operate as teams, and it is only teamwork that can detect them, verify their action, document it, and effectively handle it.
Advantage play also includes playing according to errors made by staff, such as dealers who do not correctly hide their whole card. It can also involve skills such as key card location and shuffle tracking.
Not Cheating
One more thing needs to be said at this point. Skilled play at blackjack - while it can, at the highest levels, give the player a slight advantage over the house - is not considered to be cheating in any American jurisdiction.
Cheating as it is defined in Nevada, America's oldest gaming jurisdiction:
1) "Cheat" means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection, or criteria which determine:
a) the result of a game,
b) the amount or frequency of payment in a game,
c) the value of a wagering instrument, or
d) the value of a wagering credit. Nevada Revised Statutes
465.015
In addition, Nevada defines "fraudulent acts" for this purpose as:
2) To place, increase, or decrease a bet, or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge not available to all players of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing, or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome. Nevada Revised Statutes 465.070
The keys here are that the skilled player does not alter any of the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria, and that he or she does not acquire or use any knowledge of the elements of the game that is not available to all players.
It should be noted that these are the laws in Nevada and that the laws regarding cheating vary considerably from state to state. Federal laws as they apply to Indian gaming jurisdictions also vary. It is a very good idea for all surveillance, pit, security, and management personnel to become very familiar with the laws in their own jurisdiction.
There are exceptions to this:
1) when a player uses a device, such as a computer, to actually do the card counting, bet computation, and make strategy recommendations
2) when a player uses a video camera or similar device in order to film the standard shuffle for analysis
3) when a player actually marks the cards in order to either track them or determine information not available to other players
These are actual cheating moves, involving use of a device, and can be prosecuted under law if proven.
It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:
1) in projecting the outcome of the game,
2) in keeping track of the cards played,
3) in analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game, or
4) in analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game, except as permitted by the commission. NRS 465.075
But a skilled player who operates from his own knowledge of the game and how the value of the remaining cards in the deck should affect the game decisions is not cheating. He is merely a skilled player.
However, a few other things need to be said regarding the desirability of such players. Some of them, especially those who operate within teams, consider themselves to be professional players. They attempt to make a living by their skill, which gives them a small but definite advantage over the house. It is common for some of these players to be ejected permanently from many casinos, to which they cannot return without being subject to arrest on minor charges.
As a result, many of these players operate under other names, and this puts the casino in a bad position. A player who is betting at the level of hundreds or thousands of dollars will soon run into the requirement of producing identification or be barred from further play. Nevada State Gaming Regulations, Chapter 6A.
So, the skilled player who is using a false name is, in fact, practicing fraud if he is doing so in order to avoid arrest, avoid reporting financial transactions, or to gain some advantage that he could not have under his own name. For example, many of the skilled players register for player's club accounts in order to be eligible for complimentary rooms and meals at the casinos. If a player is asked for identification in order for the casino to make its required financial transaction reports and produces false identification, another fraud results. It is unlawful for a person to possess, sell, or transfer any document or personal identifying information for the purpose of establishing a false status, occupation, membership, license, or identity for himself or any other person. NRS 205.465
Also, "crime related to racketeering" means the commission of, attempt to commit, or conspiracy to commit any of the following crimes: ... 23) Any violation of Subsection 2 or 3 of NRS 463.360 or Chapter 465 of NRS. NRS 207.360
This very specifically includes the regulations regarding reporting of financial transactions by casinos. Though the quotes are taken from Nevada Revised Statutes, similar laws and regulations exist in all gaming jurisdictions, including federal laws regarding financial transaction reporting.
Bottom Line
Skilled players at blackjack - though a minor danger to the bottom line of the blackjack pit in most casinos - can become a greater liability if they are practicing fraud through use of false names. Another possible liability is that many cheats mask their actions by adopting the betting and playing patterns of card counters.
Single card counters are relatively easily detected, and as such, their impact on income from the pit is relatively minor. However, skilled team players, because they actually risk very little money and only place large money at risk when the deck is very favorable to players, can impact the pit income very heavily if allowed to operate unimpeded, especially in a casino with high betting limits.
The greatest liability that skilled players pose, however, is that the casino itself, through having no specific policy on their handling, or through unskilled handling by staff, can mishandle such players, causing poor public relations with other players or creating the potential for lawsuits by treating such players as criminals. Thus, it is vital that informed management set policy and that such policy be implemented through procedures designed to minimize both public relations problems and potential legal risks.
Jim Goding has spent 15 years in the casino industry as a Games Dealer and Supervisor, and Surveillance Investigator, Supervisor, and Consultant. He works as a training consultant for casino surveillance, security, and gaming personnel, as well as maintaining full-time contact in the industry by working as a surveillance investigator in Las Vegas. Jim maintains a widely-respected newsletter and Web site, www.casinosurveillancenews.com, and his material as published on the Web site is now being used as a text in the Surveillance curriculum at University of Nevada Las Vegas, as well as a basis of surveillance training in casinos across the United States.
Comments?
Re: Cough... Cough.... Gag... Expert Opinion? Long
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Apr-2004 09:49:48 (#7627)
Looks like a pretty good article. He's right in pointing out to the casinos the differences between us and cheaters and that we shouldn't be considered as such or treated as such. I disagree that a single counter is easier to detect than a team, but I don't think a team of 8 counters will cost the casino much more than 8 individual counters. I've heard that on most shoe games surveillance concentrates on finding teams and doesn't sweat individual counters too much. That's fine by me!
"most casino surveillance concentrates on"...
Posted by gehrig on 14-Apr-2004 10:46:12 (#7630)
internal theft.
the initial post in this thread begs another subject. casino game protection staff, on up to senior management, are merely employees with assigned responsibilities. i was amused when yars back, a noted author would constantly "curse" pitstiffs for 86-ing suspected, skilled players. otoh, that same author adulated certain upper management because they were such "nice guys". i'm lucky to view the biz from both sides of the fence. these upper managers are the fellows who devise the 86 policies, duh. to curse the feldwebels while applauding the generals is foolish.
though the casino people vary in skill and exuberance at their positions, none that i've met beat their kids or would intentionally run over the puppy in the driveway. bottom line is each employee should perform his/her assigned task with all the skills at their hand. casting some vitriol is short sighted indeed, and absolutely inconsistent with a pragmatic attack of this game.
that stated, the issue reduces to understanding not if or why the dog bites, but which end has the teeth. the skilled player must learn to pet that dog while retaining one's hand. kvetching about the dog's teeth don't fly. "playing" the game adequately includes playing the game protection staff, seen and unseen.
I agree
Posted by Sonny on 14-Apr-2004 11:45:01 (#7633)
> Looks like a pretty good article. He's right in pointing out to the casinos
> the differences between us and cheaters and that we shouldn't be considered
> as such or treated as such.
I agree. His only real concern seems to be players "fraudulently" using fake names in order to play. Everything else seems on the level to me. He even goes into great detail to point out that advantage players are not cheaters.
-Sonny-
Re: I agree
Posted by ND on 14-Apr-2004 14:48:15 (#7638)
What everyone fails to realize that it is irrelevant what percentage advantage play affects the bottom line. When working in Surveillance the last question you want to have to answer is "how did you miss this person, or team that just beat us for $10,000, $20,000 or more?". They don't care how much they lost in a session, but only what they won. So your main objective is to protect yourself, not necessarily the property. Even the smallest grinder at smaller houses might need justification to a $2,000 win and you don't want to have to say that they were an advantage player.
ploppies win too.
Posted by Bomb on 15-Apr-2004 17:49:57 (#7659)
"Even the smallest grinder at smaller houses might need justification to a $2,000 win and you don't want to have to say that they were an advantage player."
Yeah, especially if it's a real ploppy. Amazing how the sweaty casinos think anyone who wins is a card counter,you know. The funny article talks about "skilled" players. He uses it losely...anybody who wins is skilled,it's quite a funny read.
Is This The Real ZenGrifter?
Posted by SammyBoy on 14-Apr-2004 10:29:34 (#7629)
If so Welcome Back!!! Looking forward to reading your posts.
Re: Is This The Real ZenGrifter?
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Apr-2004 11:25:59 (#7631)
yes - they cut me loose early... just to get rid of me! zg
Re: Is This The Real ZenGrifter?
Posted by Sonny on 14-Apr-2004 11:34:13 (#7632)
> yes - they cut me loose early... just to get rid of me! zg
A guy like you could probably get into more trouble in there than out here!
-Sonny-
Re: Is This The Real ZenGrifter?
Posted by MrPill on 14-Apr-2004 12:23:27 (#7635)
Welcome back ZG.
I've learned alot over the years from your post on the Red7 count.
Thanks,
Pill
Re: Is This The Real ZenGrifter?
Posted by Inskipp on 14-Apr-2004 13:42:11 (#7637)
Is there a link to this? I would really like to read what ZG said about Red 7.
Re: Is This The Real ZenGrifter? *LINK*
Posted by MrPill on 16-Apr-2004 06:47:18 (#7663)
InSkipp,
Back in the early days of the Yahoo group CardCounterCafe, ZG gave a lot of his time in answering questions posted by new players. I used to monitor this board daily but have not been there since they started all the popup ads.
Below is a link to the start of a thread that I still had the message number to which was from September 2000. At that point I had been using the Red 7 count for about 6 months (?) and was planning my first trip to Vegas with it. This particular thread has just a little bit of the knowledge that ZG offered over the years on the Red 7 count to us "Newbee's".
As I recall, the search capabilities are very limited on this Yahoo group and there are quite a lot of messages there, but there are a lot of good posts on the Red 7 and blackjack in general. So if you have sometime, it would would be well worth leafing through it if you have not already done that.
If I come across any other message numbers that I printed out I will post them here.
Good Luck with the count.
Pill
Re: Is This The Real ZenGrifter?
Posted by SammyBoy on 14-Apr-2004 13:16:08 (#7636)
Have you had a chance to see the movie Matchstick Men? I couldn't help but think of you when I saw it. Do you have any plans you can talk about? Hopefully the Feds didn't take all of your bankroll. Welcome back, you've been missed.
zg welcome back. i missed you . *NM*
Posted by BradRod on 14-Apr-2004 21:14:41 (#7644)
Welcome home ZG. *NM*
Posted by Shaggy18vw on 15-Apr-2004 02:51:07 (#7649)
Welcome Back!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 15-Apr-2004 08:31:38 (#7653)
Best wishes with your new start.
Sincerely,
Welcome back ZG!
Posted by HiNoon on 16-Apr-2004 01:24:11 (#7662)
Rest assured that your reputation remained intact for the duration of your...*ahem* vacation.
I think a few people may have tried to give your post-record a run for the money, so I'm sure that we're all looking forward to the return of your always thought-provoking comments.
Welcome back! :)
ZG.....Are you still a Tight End?
Posted by phantom007 on 14-Apr-2004 18:01:53 (#7642)
or are you now a "Wide Receiver"?
Welcome Back! Nice to know that there will be no more "orphaned posts", i.e., those to which no on will respond. Likewise, the "non-BJ message board" has missed you.
Hope you do well....AGAIN!
phantom007.
Re: ZG.....Are you still ...CAMP SNOOPY
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Apr-2004 12:48:05 (#7738)
Actually, I got "cheated" out of the full prison experience - I watched 3 seasons of HBO's 'OZ', taking careful notes so I'd know how to handle myself... and then I wind up at the BOP-version of "Camp Snoopy"! zg
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