Blackjack Message Archive from CardCounter.com

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Casino trying to cut their losses! *LINK*
Posted by Sonny on 14-Apr-2004 17:56:09 (#7641)

Check out this listing on eBay. It looks like the 6:5 idea failed and someone is trying to get their money back!

-Sonny-

Re: Casino trying to cut their losses!
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Apr-2004 18:47:04 (#7643)

Wow, that's great, maybe we are winning 8-)

I placed a bid... now don't go bidding against me.

--Mayor

Re: Casino trying to cut their losses!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Apr-2004 22:37:59 (#7646)

Oh wow that is funny! Can anyone identify what store they are from?

They're not cutting their losses!
Posted by CougIt on 15-Apr-2004 01:51:55 (#7648)

Rather they are re-ordering new placards w/ the "BJ pays 6 to 5" in even smaller font.

My Guess...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 15-Apr-2004 07:12:32 (#7651)

The G. Nugget. It was good to see their absence last time out. This is the only Vegas place that repented as far as I know.

Caesars also got rid of the scam 6/5 game *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 15-Apr-2004 12:09:05 (#7657)

Re: Casino trying to cut their losses!
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Apr-2004 10:35:08 (#7654)

I wrote to the seller -- he claims that they are from Treasure Island, because TI wanted to invest in better looking signs.

--Mayor

Wow,great info!Thanks Mayor!
Posted by Bomb on 15-Apr-2004 17:39:06 (#7658)

Last time I was at Treasure, I noticed they actually cut back on 6/5 single deck.

Re: Wow,great info!Thanks Mayor!
Posted by the_heater on 15-Apr-2004 18:51:53 (#7660)

I was in TI last week. They had 10 6/5 single deck tables, more than when I was there last fall.

What are conditions at TI like these days?
Posted by Count Luckula on 16-Apr-2004 18:07:01 (#7667)

They used to have an ok double deck game, right outside the high-limits area. Then they replaced them w/ CSM's. Last time I was there a couple of months ago, the double deckers had returned, but I had a feeling that they weren't going to stay around for long. Any chance they're still there?

I won the bid
Posted by The Mayor on 16-Apr-2004 18:27:03 (#7668)

Items cost me $4.99 -- plus $6 shipping 8-)

--Mayor

Re: I won the bid
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Apr-2004 02:59:39 (#7671)

Hey you can bring them into the casino and sneak one onto the table when you are playing. That will keep the Wongers away.

Are You Planning To Setup another Casino in your Garage? ;-) *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 17-Apr-2004 12:17:04 (#7674)

this stuff is around town.
Posted by gehrig on 17-Apr-2004 19:41:08 (#7679)

often casino stuff turns up at local flea markets, even at garage sales. a good source is at the occasional casino/gaming collectible shows. one guy (vendor) at jake's flea market said he went into the lv club and simply asked them if they had any used decks. some "suit" pointed at two pallets (!) of used cards and told him to get them gone (free). he had to go borrow a truck.

best show is an antique/bottle/advertising show. i've always found some cool, "internal" stuff. best item was a casino game supervision training manual...complete with tests. that from a "major" lv casino group. an interesting gaming device i saw (but didn't buy), was a wooden jig/paper cutter for producing "belly strippers". at a flea market, bought a few, 21 table "felts" (mali cloth) last month. they're technically improper to sell unless the vendor is licensed by nevada gaming. they make interesting table cloths, even cooler, fender covers if you gotta tinker with the ride. used layouts are common.

"booby buckets"/slot coin cups make okay, desktop, pencil/pen holders. better desktop organizers are the sportsbook, parlay card holders.

bigger stuff, like 21 tables (or larger games), gotta be negotiated. sometimes when a joint sells out/is acquired, the outgoing staff is offered first divs on tables. bought an excellent 21 table, originally from the santa fe, for a tad over $200. last month, a fellow at a local dealing school was selling 21 chairs (out of the barbary coast), for $20 each. smaller game accessories can be scored when/if a joint hires a company to liquidate the fixtures. made quite a few trips when the el rancho was closed. woulda' taken the large/main keno board but it wouldn't fit in my truck.

Re: What are conditions at TI like these days?
Posted by the_heater on 16-Apr-2004 20:38:01 (#7669)

They put a DD game on those tables on certain days, usually at high mins now. Most days those tables are CSM. A few years ago I played the DD tables a fair amount. I do not play BJ at TI any more.

I was there 4 days ago.
Posted by Jay on 16-Apr-2004 21:00:27 (#7670)

They only had two 6/5 tables open,one was vacant for the most part with a few occasional bets from passers. The other one was half empty.

as probably noted elsewhere in these threads...
Posted by gehrig on 15-Apr-2004 19:28:30 (#7661)

the current issue of "casinosurveillancenews" (.com) has a generalized article regarding skilled players and casino procedures. the site is technically aimed at industry employees, though i believe registration to the email issues is not restricted.

Read This
Posted by Big Cowboy on 16-Apr-2004 13:08:12 (#7665)

http://www.casinosurveillancenews.com/newsletter.htm

Re: Read This
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 16-Apr-2004 13:38:48 (#7666)

I enjoyed the article "Google and Yahoo, two of the most widely used Web search engines, have decided to stop running advertisements for online casinos, a shift that could dampen the growth of Internet gambling."

Better than seeing 6:5 blackjack signs for sale. ;>

comp policies
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 17-Apr-2004 17:49:02 (#7675)

Here's what happened:

In January I had an incredible session at a certain casino. I put out Plenty of top bets, and pulled in a lot of money. After a few hours of play I asked a floor person for a meal comp. He looked at the computer for a minute and pointed me to the desk of a casino host.

The casino host pulled me up on the computer and said: "Hmmm. you won a lot of money downstairs. There's nothing on your card." I explained to him that I had plenty of hundred-dollar bets out and had put through so many thousands in action. He said that maybe it just wasn't registered in the computer yet. I went back out and won even more money that day, too.

So I went back this morning and checked my comp balance. $15 !!! They keep a balance for 6 months, so there was no chance of my comps having been rolled off because of time. I asked the woman why my balance was so low after playing for so long at that level. She hit a few buttons on her computer and said this:

"Ohhhh, you WON when you were here, that's why!. They don't give comps because that would be like giving you something twice. If you played slots then the comps go on right away, but not the table games".

I was under the impression that comps were awarded at this place,or anywhere, based on total action.

Also, what is obviously happening is this place is keeping track of cuumulative wins. The word in the street is that a casino a couple hours away was doing this too, and was using the info to make counters.

Is this a trend in how comps are awarded?
Are many placed doing this? In Vegas, too?
Is it time to stop using the players card here? I Think so!

-Felix

Re: comp policies
Posted by Greasy John on 17-Apr-2004 18:30:34 (#7677)

This has happened to me. Be polite and just move on. Arguing will gain you nothing. If they don't like you action they might no even validate our parking ticket.

comp policies... they be a changing.
Posted by gehrig on 17-Apr-2004 19:06:09 (#7678)

since the comp hustle book, i haven't seen much specific info posted on the trends in (at least lv) comp programs. it's a worthy subject.

given that skilled 21 players shouldn't be playing for comps, "playing" the system has some value. the player's card is double edged. the downside is that it i'd's the player. that file can be annotated as to player skill. good news is that it can divert heat. that same player profile can be pumped up with "house game" and slot play. i'll leave it to the reader to understand how to bulk up his/her player file without personally playing those games.

as to the initial post in the thread, asking for comps with some measure of play is appropriate. it's what a ploppy would do. and, being disappointed with any response is also appropriate. [puppy dogs/21 players]

Re: comp policies... they be a changing.
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Apr-2004 00:54:29 (#7680)

Part of the problem is that the casinos are rarely clear about the formula used to award comps. My favorite store states outright: we pay 25% of your average bet per hour, on blackjack.

Now this is significant. It correlates to 10-20% of my EV and not subject to variance. Certainly not something that you want to leave behind at the casino. What's more, PC's will boost your rating depnding on how much they like you. Several times I have heard a PC ask a dealer if a guy was tipping and say that he will rate him really good if he was. Being most of the PC's here also deal on different shifts, you can see that as a collusion between players and dealers to transfer money from casino management, to players, to the dealers. So I consider this just another variety of AP, and I play it.

Re: comp policies... they be a changing.
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 18-Apr-2004 01:29:58 (#7683)

>>My favorite store states outright: we pay 25% of your average bet per hour, on blackjack.

This, of course, changes everyting as far as my philosophy about calculating comps into E.V.(I don't).
If it's true, I agree this is very significant and whould be an exception for me.

Oh yea A.M., to elaborate about Detroit/Windsor casinos. I left a message in that earlier thread that Windsor is closed because of a union thing. And to answer you question about it being worth a 2 hour flight... I don't think so. Especally now that Windsor is closed. I get the impression from your profile that you play mainly in A.C.? You would just be in for more of the same in Detroit.

-Felix

Re: where I play
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Apr-2004 01:34:46 (#7685)

No I play mostly in Connecticut, never been to AC. CT has very decent shoe games with LSR and near zero heat, only drawbacks are the crowded conditions and relatively high stakes. Forget about less than $25 on the weekends or even on many weekdays.

Still...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 18-Apr-2004 01:51:37 (#7687)

Figure the value of LSR as opposed to your ability to spread more becaue of the minimums. More of the same. 8 decks just sucks across the board.

"favorite...detroit, windsor"....
Posted by gehrig on 18-Apr-2004 09:51:53 (#7688)

time out sluggo. isn't that the joint that 86's *slot* players for "abusing the comp program" ? class act !

methinks that move is akin to "backrooming" and "trespassing" an old couple because they only bought groceries on "double coupon day".

Yes...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 18-Apr-2004 14:33:58 (#7692)

, the casino I was playing at is the one that barred the elderly VP players for playing unbeatable VP machines.

Re: comp policies... they be a changing.
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 18-Apr-2004 01:13:17 (#7681)

>>"the comp hustle book"

What is this?

>>"[A] skilled 21 players shouldn't be playing for comps"

This is my position too. A players journal should reflect his skill level as a player only, not his combined BJ/comp hustling prowess, or his ability to find a cheap flight to Vegas. Travel expenses should be seperate as well as comps, if you ask me.

>>i'll leave it to the reader to understand how to bulk up his/her player file without personally playing those games.

Ok, when I get a replacement card, It's usually because I left mine at home. I now have a whole stack of them. So maybe I could take them all with me next time out and stick them in a bunch of slot machines. Has this scam been busted yet?, I can't imagine anything like this as having not been profiled. If I'm caught, is it really worth the few bucks for a lousy lobster tail? Even if I leave only one card in a machine, will they void all the action if they find it and pull it? Even my ligitamate action? I can see this happening.

If you have better methods, please email me:
felix_rue_de_guerre@hotmail.com

I think it's time to come up with excuses why I'm not playing with a card at this place. There are now some very good ones.

-Felix

Re: comp policies... they be a changing.
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Apr-2004 01:31:35 (#7684)

Not worth it to leave cards in machines, in my opinion. There are some $5 full pay 9/6 VP machines where I play. These have very close to 0 EV when played properly, and well into the positive when you include the comps, so I play them for cover, and also because I happen to enjoy VP. One of these nights I'm going to sacrifice and sit and play these machines all night, no BJ. What counter in the world would do that?

Now leaving cards in machines especially higher stakes ones I'm sure has been tried and is probably a good way to be 86'ed. What I could do is leave one card in one machine every time I play, that will be overlooked because people legitimately forget one card in one machine all the time. But realistically, the chances that anyone else who is playing $5 9/6 VP is also an AP or very experienced gambler is very high, and the chances they will neglect to use their own card and leave mine in are nil. Walk down the row of machines like that and see how many people don't have a card inserted, and see how many unoccupied machines do have a card inserted, and you have enough data to figure out the likelihood of this working.

Re: comp policies... they be a changing.
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 18-Apr-2004 01:47:11 (#7686)

Thanks,

I have abolutely no knowledge/experience with V.P. or machine games or how AP's approach them. Your advice is logical. I'm goin' to have to start screwin' around with V.P. someday so I can become a bit more well rounded with this stuff. But I honestly have no immediate intrinsic motivation to sit in a chair and push levers for food all day.

answers...
Posted by gehrig on 18-Apr-2004 11:35:55 (#7689)

"comp city" (1 and 2) by max rubin. he's the "color commentator" on the current game show network, bj "tournament". as a side note, rubin and even the roving wahini window dressing/"reporter", have to know better how to play the game than the scripted jive they're given. could be that i'm wrong though.

inserting/leaving extra cards in machines has diminishing returns. that so because i believe that most software applications require the card to be reinserted after a certain time, idle. other, more inventive methods are still in use and shouldn't be discarded through publication.

as i noted yars ago, player evaluation assets are the new frontier for casino profitability. as to importance to the net hold, no doubt accurate player evaluation exceeds the import of "advantage" player detection. witness the newest (not the first) generation of table game mechanisms to evaluate play at 21 (or any table game). these systems are in fact designed for player evaluation. they're installed to approach the accuracy of slot machine databases. want a comp sir ? usta be that most any pitstiff had the power of the pen. then the power was restricted to the (entire) pit supervisor, then on to even a shift boss. now, the 'stiff directs you to the "self-comp" gizmo in the hallway next to the atm.

the collateral damage/benefit (21 player vs. the house), as specifically pointed out in sales presentations, is that those systems coupled with card reading shoes, can detect and display "out of line" (read, high count), shoes. the remote displays, at the pit stand, and if requested at the surveillance console, are colorful.

and what's so colorful..purple?
Posted by Tom on 19-Apr-2004 18:24:52 (#7699)

about this mindplay or mindgame,what ever this cheating scanner is called?

the first such system...
Posted by gehrig on 20-Apr-2004 11:22:15 (#7712)

had red and green for remaining deck composition.

Re: comp policies
Posted by ZOD on 18-Apr-2004 13:17:31 (#7691)

After having a disastrous November and December at a particular casino and getting zillions of comp credits, I was denied a lousy buffet in January. When I complained at customer service, they explained that the point tally begins again at the first of the year and that points based on my previous losses didn't roll over. I asked for a complete description of how comps are accrued and every person I spoke with gave me a different formula. The only constant information was that, at my level of action, I could get virtually anything I wanted if I were to play slots instead of table games!

Oh well, gotta go. I hear those Sizzlin' 7s calling my name...

ZOD

Re: comp policies
Posted by BlackJackHack on 19-Apr-2004 14:05:16 (#7696)

Interesting. In my experience, EVERY PC and host will tell you that your comps have nothing to do with whether you win or lose, but depend only on your action. Not that I actually believe that is the 100% truth, but I'm very surprised that a PC or host would actually TELL YOU that you weren't getting comped because you won.

In stores where the PC's and hosts have broad discretion in awarding comps, I believe that, for obvious reasons, they are going to be more generous when you are losing. Even in stores where your comp balance is (at least in theory) determined by a computer (which, unfortunately, is becoming the norm, which I think makes it harder to milk the system), there is going to be some amount of PC discretion in terms of the input into the system.

I just don't think it's a smart practice to be whoring for comps when you just had a $2k win. Even if this does not necessarily suggest you are an AP, it does suggest that you are not the most desirable player. On the other hand, after a $2k loss, you may get yourself a nice room, or at least a meal. When I am doing my Las Vegas "paper route" where I play 1 hour pitch game sessions at a string of casinos, I always eat where I am losing!

Re: comp policies
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 19-Apr-2004 22:01:18 (#7703)

>>"Interesting. In my experience, EVERY PC and host will tell you that your comps have nothing to do with whether you win or lose"

This wasn't a PC or host. As I originally stated, the PC and host started tapdancing when I asked for the comp in January. It was the woman in the players card booth this weekend who brought up the record of my action and made the statement about the nature of my balance.

Maybe she was making assumptions or had gotten some bad info herself. I don't know. But what other excuse could there have been for so much action yielding so little in comps?

I might add, this is certainly a change in the way comps have been awarded at this place from past years. I'm very sure about that! I've gotten my share of lobster out them.

-Felix

unbelievable
Posted by Tom on 19-Apr-2004 18:19:50 (#7698)

We all know casinos hate winners,but they would never admit to this in a million years, UNLESS they're seeking to get fired.

It was an interesting story, kind of makes me wonder.

Re: sounds illegal to me
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 20-Apr-2004 06:43:41 (#7704)

It reeks of illegality and false advertising. When they get you to sign up for the card and play in their casino they tell you your rewards are based on your play. If the purpose of the card is to rebate your losses, that is an entirely different mattter, and the legality of that is still questionable. If you happen to be playing poker with the card, they would not be able to give you comps at all because it is patently illegal for the house to rebate a poker player's losses unless everybody at the table is informed that he is playing with the house's money.

Customer service
Posted by ZOD on 20-Apr-2004 07:19:16 (#7705)

I don't have a problem with casinos giving greater comps to losing players. I only have a problem with not being able to get accurate information about comp policies. Just answer my questions honestly. It's more of a customer service issue and, damn it, I'm the customer!

I sometimes wish the casinos would pause and remember that they should be as nice to the gamblers as they are to their stockholders.

Best...

ZOD

Re: comp policies
Posted by toddler on 25-Apr-2004 19:46:05 (#7784)

Felix,

Did you read this?... http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?read=7403

Balance between shopping for good pen and Wonging around
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Apr-2004 01:14:10 (#7682)

OK, so you are playing shoe, in a store where pen ranges from 6/1 to 6/2, averaging around 6/1.5. The place is crowded, very crowded, and you find a dealer who is consistently cutting 6/1. Payday, you say, and have a seat.

Now let's say your strategy also calls for Wonging out. Your Wong-out point hits halfway through the shoe, but you know that if you leave this table it is very unlikely you will get back in because of the crowd, and also unlikely you will find another table with penetration so good.

So here's the dilemma- do you bite the bullet and play the next deck or two with a minimum bet? Or do you Wong out and take your chances you'll be playing crap for the rest of the night?

OK, OK, I can hear the scolds- "You shouldn't be playing shoe." "You shouldn't be playing in a crowded casino anyway." I shouldn't drink and I shouldn't strain so hard in the bathroom- point is this game represents the cards I've been dealt (so to speak) and I'm trying to figure out the best way to handle these situations.

The different options I've thought of are: 1) Decrease the Wong out point. 2) Use the running count as the Wong out indicator. That way if I have Wongable true count at the end of a shoe, no need to sweat it because I only have to live with it for a couple of hands. 3) Change my betting unit relative to the table min. If I am spreading $100-1000 at a $10 table, instead of Wonging out I can just drop down to $10. The two disadvantages to that are I am not bankrolled to play a game much over the available table mins, and also that this may look like a 1:100 spread to the pit and will not be tolerated.

Does anybody have any commentary to add to these approaches? Thanks.

Re: Balance between shopping for good pen and Wonging around
Posted by Learning to count on 18-Apr-2004 13:12:48 (#7690)

Go to the bath room. Pass on a couple of hands becuse of a cell phone call, to order a drink. Or retake your beting strategy. Play positive decks at higher spread then have a lower spread range at low and neg counts. Keep the bets changing; thier spread range should keep them guessing. In a crowded arena the pit and eye will tend to lose sight due to the choas.

Re: Balance between shopping for good pen and Wonging around
Posted by John on 18-Apr-2004 23:44:17 (#7693)

I think what is left out here is the fact that you can leave your chips on the table and pretend you have to go to the bathroom. Scan around to see if you like where you are. Not sure where you live, but in my area, people ask the dealers to hold their betting circle until they get back. They put a clear circle on the betting circle to indicate that you can't play that one. It is really annoying to me especially when the count is huge, and I can't play because someone is off somewhere, and they have it reserved.

Someone said that maybe one out of 4 shoes is a decent one, on one of the bad ones, you have to go to the bathroom , then on another you have to phone the wife.

Re: Balance between shopping for good pen and Wonging around
Posted by wong out on 20-Apr-2004 20:26:15 (#7719)

wong out; ask the dealer to hjold your spot. Then backcount and wong into a shoe in a different pit; come back at the shuffle if you dont find anything. Playing a large neg count with a small bet doesnt cost much ev but it kills your productivity. Think of it this way; you only make money when you pump the money out there with an edge. Do whatever is necessary to maximize the good hands and sitting around for the shoe to end is down time on the production line ...period. Don S wrote a good article in BJF a few years back about the optimal wong out points. I use his advice to the extent possible; bottom line is your wong out point should move up as the decks depelete. For example - I almost never wong out on the first deck but in the last third of the deck I want positive terrority or I'm gone.

wong out

Stay Put
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Apr-2004 07:53:33 (#7695)

You've seen the first three decks. What is your Wong out point? If it is TC-2 then those first three decks are TC+2. Not much to follow to the next deal, but something. You will see two more decks before the shuffle. Bet the min, use your - indices, eat some cards by not doubling your soft hands, and see how the rest of the deck turns out. You have to use everything against multideck. If the table min is $5 toss an extra $5 on top of your bets when it is TC+2 for those hands bet into a TC-2 deck. Unorthodox? Damn straight it is. Get used to understanding that the discard tray of a -TC deck is now your best friend. You'll be wishing for a TC-3 (means deck 1 is +15! - think backwards) after one deck in no time ;>

Get Yur NO 6:5 T Shirts HERE!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Apr-2004 07:32:03 (#7694)

The war on 6:5 continues.........

http://www.hoffonline.net/vegas/

Re: Get Yur NO 6:5 T Shirts HERE!
Posted by wong out on 20-Apr-2004 20:19:19 (#7718)

Interesting web site; I didnt see the price of the t-shirts (not that I would rec. wearing in a casino). I have to admit a kinda laisse faire attititude towards that whole 6:5 ripoff. I mean the game sucks but I would consider it a success if I could wean my cousin's girlfriend off of video keno to play 6:5 BJ. Its all relative...

wong out

Re: Get Yur NO 6:5 T Shirts HERE!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Apr-2004 21:25:27 (#7721)

Sorta. Like turning a wine-o into a beer drinker ;>

DD soft 21?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Apr-2004 15:28:39 (#7697)

The situation came up recently on a split 10's hand (thank you Ace side count!). It could also come up in a Reno DAN game I guess. But I don't know if that is even allowed. My simulator doesn't handle this situation- does anybody have any index numbers? Thanks.

Re: DD soft 21?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Apr-2004 07:56:54 (#7706)

As I am sure you are aware of, the indice will change depending on the dealers up card. This play is usually reserved for the desparate tourney player's last hand or two. I once DD with 9,A vs can't remember with no indice for same and got my A (yes, I too give "special consideration" to the Ace). It was simply wonderful until I felt the heat from the pit and the table. It was rather uncomfortable! ;> I think this play really goes beyond counting and Ace richness. Keep your eyes peeled for the new book

"Blackjack Ace Prediction:
The Art of Advanced Location Strategies for the Casino Game of Twenty-One" It is rather evident why Thorp didn't want to publish on it and why my chapter Card Sequencing: Smart-Bomb Accuracy" is so short! ;> Some things should be reserved for your memoirs....

Eliot
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Apr-2004 08:04:37 (#7707)

Where is the post for "He had the upper hand, now all bets are off...I could predict the aces with great accuracy. I once doubled-down on a hard 20 to prove my point, and got the Ace" ? One of your podiums?

Re: Eliot
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Apr-2004 10:59:53 (#7711)

http://www.cardcounter.com/images/News_Press_Eliot_Chumash.pdf

I know why you want to know 8-) I was asked to do the same thing ...

--Mayor

also hitting hard 17 etc
Posted by eyesfor21 on 20-Apr-2004 12:46:17 (#7713)

dbl 12, & 13
hitting hard 17
dbl a,a

dbl a,9

just extra profit out there when you are good and right
as there is a lot more than indices to the game.

Re: Eliot
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Apr-2004 14:28:16 (#7714)

Hey, thanks a lot, nice article. We are in rather good company I see! ;>

Re: Eliot
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Apr-2004 11:18:50 (#7734)

I notice that from the side you look a little Native Indian. Are you by chance??

Advantage Shopper.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 20-Apr-2004 09:09:58 (#7708)

link to the complete article:
http://biz.yahoo.com/law/040414/b7b60813c739461170b82e5c2f3b0791_1.html
Shopper sues for J C Penney for malicious prosecution and false arrest, gets $500,000 settlement.

a bit of the story:
"For example, Pianelli knew that J.C. Penney had a policy that by buying a store catalog for $5, she could receive $10 off her purchase using a code on the back of the catalog. If she wanted to buy $300 in merchandise, Pianelli would buy 15 catalogs. Then she'd split her $300 order into 15 separate orders so she could get the $10 discount on each one. That way, she saved $150 (minus the $5 she paid for each catalog) using coupons in 15 different orders rather than $10 on just one."

Just goes to show, you can find an advantage almost anywhere!

Re: Advantage Shopper.
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 20-Apr-2004 10:31:26 (#7709)

When I was in college JCP was giving away $5 gift certificates for filling out credit applications. And they weren't checking I.D's. And, on top of that you would get cash back as change for anything under $5. My friends and I would drive around to different stores, get the certificates and buy a single pair of sox.

One of my friends eventually figured out that he could return the sox without a recipt. JCP didn't require one unless a piece of merchandise had been on sale recently and you wanted a full refund.

Not exactly a way to get rich. But it was fun and got us a bit of beer money.

-Felix

Re: Advantage Shopper.
Posted by SammyBoy on 20-Apr-2004 10:41:12 (#7710)

These opportunities exist everywhere, I wish I was better at identifying them. These are the kinds of things the Mayor is trying to open our eyes to. I wish I was better at thinking "outside the box."

Re: Advantage Shopper.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Apr-2004 14:33:21 (#7715)

This is simply couponomy, the same thing that makes online what it is. Once in a while you will find graet food coupies. Enough to go buying extra papers for. Wife is an excellent shopper who never pays full price. Right now I am wearing around $250 of clothing that cost her about $60.

only problem with that discount suit coat is...
Posted by gehrig on 20-Apr-2004 15:22:47 (#7716)

when you take it off, the arms cross.

these days, the sharp casino player turns all the knobs to twist whatever from the joints. those authorities who would scoff at chasing all opportunities are short sighted.

100% Virgin Lamb Wool Sweater
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Apr-2004 21:19:25 (#7720)

pants and shoes...I don't wear a suit to work. Unless I am in an interview for a promotion.

Re: 100% Virgin Lamb Wool Sweater
Posted by SammyBoy on 21-Apr-2004 10:15:37 (#7731)

Work? I thought you were a Pro Gambler?

Re: 100% Virgin Lamb Wool Sweater
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Apr-2004 10:55:28 (#7732)

A man can be both. What would you call that? Part time professional? Semi pro? I also cook, clean and do home improvements. ;> Right now I am pushing paper while my bot is playing games at home and I have 5 sports bets out there waiting for game time. On my lunch and break I do all the required math. When I get home I do the team paperwork too. I believe in multiple streams of income, some steady with benefits and taxes, some that have a fluctuating income with no taxes. I like to think I am gaining ground on all fronts.

What I would like to do is to run a gov't funded community centre with seniors residence and a day care facility in it. The kids would liven up the old folks lives and we might be able to get the old folks to pass something down to the kids that seemed to miss gen I and gen II in between. Like turn the lights off when you leave the room. We would have open houses where the kids and "superkids" (kids over 65) could give concerts and skits to entertain the local residents and build a solid community spirit. All of that will come after I've made my first gazillion dollars. I can hardly wait to see the look in the Land Planners eyes when they take my appilcations in. ;> I guess it will be an Institutional zone with a site specific bylaw for a hybrid use. That could launch another career.

I also want to launch a new food franchise called the Jerky Terky, a cross of Jamaican and Chinese. I also have NaviLimo on the back burner, something I am trying to get Lincoln to help me out with. We would end up doing each other a favor. I'm also trying to get LayZboy to give their outdated floor model recliners to the Hospital for Sick Children's chemo ward.

Anyone want a job?? ;>

You're An Honorable Guy
Posted by SammyBoy on 21-Apr-2004 14:03:14 (#7741)

Sounds like great plans. I'd love to work for you but I have no desire to move to the People's Socialist Republic of Canada.

Re: You're An Honorable Guy
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Apr-2004 14:26:58 (#7742)

Hahahaha! I can't blame you for that. We are a strange mix of capitalism and collectivism. The original American ideology is as close to perfect as humanly possible, but the way it now manifests itself is often disheartening. This months Esquire has an article on how we can solve all of the worlds problems. I look forward to reading it, no matter how ficticious it might be. All I can do today is save two clients worlds from falling apart before 5 o'clock....

And thanks for the recognition.

BEST
Rob

Re: 100% Virgin Lamb Wool Sweater
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Apr-2004 17:13:50 (#7745)

"What I would like to do is to run a gov't funded community centre with seniors residence and a day care facility in it. The kids would liven up the old folks lives and we might be able to get the old folks to pass something down to the kids that seemed to miss gen I and gen II in between. Like turn the lights off when you leave the room. We would have open houses where the kids and "superkids" (kids over 65) could give concerts and skits to entertain the local residents and build a solid community spirit. All of that will come after I've made my first gazillion dollars. I can hardly wait to see the look in the Land Planners eyes when they take my appilcations in. ;> I guess it will be an Institutional zone with a site specific bylaw for a hybrid use. That could launch another career. "

Amazing! I had this same idea a long time ago, for exactly the same reasons. Kids and old people seem to genuinely enjoy each other's company and most people have many pleasant memories involving their grandparents. People who do a certain kind of bad thing to kids are usually well under 65, and kids are also not good at keeping their mouths shut, for example, about someone having fallen, or someone acting irregularly. Sounds like a win-win situation. It might play better in Canada than in superlatively litigious USA.

ps - THANKS!
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Apr-2004 19:56:05 (#7717)

A special thanks to all of my friends and readers who wished me well while I was on vacation. I'm glad to see that this lone non-commercial board has somehow managed to survive without falling the way of other once-promising non-commercial BJboards! zg

Re: ps - THANKS!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Apr-2004 10:07:14 (#7728)

Hey Grif

Glad you are out n about again. I often wondered what you would think if you saw this or that while you were away. What do you think of the Be The Dealer ad on the front page of this site? You may have missed that when you posted this message. I figured you would roll over in your.....cot if you saw that, but I could be wrong. You may have had access to the web, but possibly not. I was kinda wishing that you did and we could get live reports or something. I could have even set you up to make you some good money while you were doing your pit stop so you had a BR when you got out. You missed Blackjack Forum Online, and its final no warning overnight closing. That is a bugger because they took down all of the postings. Arnold was posting there. They even had a ruff n tumble "Fight Club" where we riped the skin off of each other when our testosterone levels got too high. You missed Cellini, International Man of Mystery. Hope you enjoy catching up.

Yahoo is getting out of stuffing casino ads in front of you everytime you read a message, which is fine with us "little guys." They are still stuffing ads in your face tho, which remains a total pain. Wong's is covered with casino ads now too. Anthony Curtis turned Arnie's beloved BJF into LVAGO in one day which is covered with casino ads and devoted to online playing. I guess he was listening very carefully to me at BJF, which had an online casino forum. I've been called an online casino shill for recommending certain casinos to my team members, which I find absurd. That is like calling Ken Uston/Tom Hyland/MIT a shill for all the casinos their team has hit. The easiest way to see how commercial a site is is to post a link (with or without affilate code) to an online casino and see how fast it gets taken down. ;> The fewer minutes, the more commercial the site is.

"A special thanks to all of my friends and readers who wished me well while I was on vacation. I'm glad to see that this lone non-commercial board has somehow managed to survive without falling the way of other once-promising non-commercial BJboards! zg"

No problem. Hey, how are you accessing the net now, by cybercafe? How strict is the half way house you're in? Can you get out to play cards at all? It might be worse than the last spot you landed on in this big monopoly game called life.

Take care til next time,
Rob

Re: ps - **responses to "Vintage McGravey"
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Apr-2004 13:17:08 (#7740)

**my responses -

**any homepage ad is better than a big garish picture of the cover of Faces And Aces!

I figured you would roll over in your.....cot if you saw that, but I could be wrong. You may have had access to the web, but possibly not. I was kinda wishing that you did and we could get live reports or something. I could have even set you up to make you some good money while you were doing your pit stop so you had a BR when you got out. You missed Blackjack Forum Online, and its final no warning overnight closing. That is a bugger because they took down all of the postings. Arnold was posting there. They even had a ruff n tumble "Fight Club" where we riped the skin off of each other when our testosterone levels got too high. You missed Cellini, International Man of Mystery. Hope you enjoy catching up.

**bla bla bla

**((yawn))

""A special thanks to all of my friends and readers who wished me well while I was on vacation. I'm glad to see that this lone non-commercial board has somehow managed to survive without falling the way of other once-promising non-commercial BJboards! zg""

No problem.

**who was talkin to you?

Hey, how are you accessing the net now, by cybercafe? How strict is the half way house you're in? Can you get out to play cards at all? It might be worse than the last spot you landed on in this big monopoly game called life.

**are you wearing a wire?

Take care til next time,

**ciao! zg

ZenGrumpy
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 22-Apr-2004 08:43:05 (#7752)

**I'm glad to see that this lone non-commercial board has somehow managed to survive without falling the way of other once-promising non-commercial BJboards! zg""

What do you think of the Be The Dealer ad on the front page of this site?

**any homepage ad is better than a big garish picture of the cover of Faces And Aces!

@@ You were speaking about BJ boards, now you are talking about my personal site. I wish you well with the publishing of your new autobiography book Grif.

Hope you enjoy catching up.

**bla bla bla **((yawn))

I won't bore you any more with my well wishes Grif.

""A special thanks to all of my friends and readers who wished me well while I was on vacation.

No problem.

**who was talkin to you?

@@ I guess Barfy never gave you my messages then.

@@ Still paranoid delusions of prosecution? Understandable.

Take care til next time,

**ciao! zg

@@ I'll leave you alone. It's better for everyone.

Re: ZenGrumpy
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Apr-2004 09:07:51 (#7753)

Ha Ha HA Ha Ha Ha Ha and HAAAAAAA. You guys are funny! It's great to see you guys do battle again. Just keep it light and humorous! Ya gotta admit the aces and faces comment was classic ZG Funny Rob! TAKE A CHILL AND KEEP ON COUNTING! This is a great site. They gotta pay the bills so why is Be the dealer so bad. No one is forcing ay one to play. It's an ad. You of all people Rob have made these sites very lucrative for your self and others. PEACE!

Re: ZenGrumpy
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 22-Apr-2004 09:18:57 (#7755)

Seeing you laughing again is totally worth it all dude.

Keep that smile on your face, and your chips in the bet square,

Rob

Re: ZenGrumpy FAIRNESS TO RM
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Apr-2004 18:55:46 (#7807)

Yes - i DID GET YOUR WELL WISHES AND MY 'EX' WAS THANKFUL THAT YOU HELPED HER WITH THAT CONFIDENTIAL MATTER. gratzi! zg

Which
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 28-Apr-2004 06:16:04 (#7815)

is confidential and shall remain that way. Nice to see you posting again.

PS prego gumba

Wong's Reply
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Apr-2004 22:26:09 (#7722)

From: BARFARKEL
Subject: ZG INTERVIEW
To: Stanford Wong

Attached below you'll find the long version of the Interview With The Grifter that I have been working on. Marcus asked me to send this to you after his conversation with you in the Gambler's Book Shop recently.

It's long, but I think you'll find it well worth your time ro read it.
-------------------

WONG'S REPLY:

Mark -

I think that material could be expanded into a book and do well. You might try to sell it to a major publisher. You would need somebody big -- not someone who publishes just gambling stuff. Sell the book idea before devoting any more time to developing the material.

Stanford Wong

Re: Wong's Reply
Posted by Cyrano on 21-Apr-2004 04:52:10 (#7725)

Hey ZG,

Welcome back (sorry for the tardiness).

Wong's gone the way of the money. His catalog is starting to clutter with some garbage (Scoblete's "precision craps" stuff). That once-classy site, at least in my book, has become a little too shady for me now. On the other hand, he does have one heck of a publicity machine. I'm sure if you write that book he can do one heck of a job promoting it.

--Cy

Re: Wong's Reply
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Apr-2004 12:39:14 (#7737)

hi/thanks - the 'dice-control' seminar boys were in the gamblersGeneral store the other day... its a nice theory... 'goldentouchcraps.com'... maybe i'll start practicing! ;)

barfy fancies that he might write the book - sort of a "Henry Hill/Wise Guy triggers airwave-landrush" story-concept. zg

Re: Wong's Reply
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Apr-2004 09:09:57 (#7754)

Sounds like your adventures could be a better read than the fantasy hype of the MIT boys.

I Imagine
Posted by SammyBoy on 22-Apr-2004 10:54:11 (#7756)

The Grifters book being similar to Frank Abignale's "Catch Me If You Can."

Re: I Imagine
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Apr-2004 09:22:55 (#7763)

Wong was wise to pass on the "opportunity" IMO. I think the article is fine right where it is now.

Re: I Imagine WONG DIDN'T "PASS"
Posted by ZENGRIFTER on 27-Apr-2004 18:53:05 (#7806)

Wong didn't "pass" on an opportunity, Barfy didn't present him with an opportunity, just the opportunity to read it. zg

nevada homeland security bill...
Posted by gehrig on 21-Apr-2004 00:46:15 (#7724)

according to an article concerning identity theft issues at the dmv, "the bill makes it a felony to have fraudulent identification documents".

i wonder if that nevada law might be applied to "alternative" i.d's used in casinos.

Re: nevada homeland security bill...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Apr-2004 09:30:33 (#7727)

It all depends on how they choose to define "fraudulent". It's always been illegal to have fake ID for use in committing fraud. But if the purpose of the ID is to obtain a player's card under some name that is not banned for card counting, which is a non-fraudulent activity, the ID is not fraudulent just false. But we all know how a Nevada judge is going to interpret this.

the word used in the articles was ...
Posted by gehrig on 21-Apr-2004 12:26:43 (#7736)

possession, not use or intent to use. at least it would seem that use to rent a hotel room, use to obtain credit [access "comps"?], or use in a hotel/casino to obtain access, might be become a felony.

that might include juveniles using a "bad" i.d. to gain entry into a tavern.

Re: the word used in the articles was ...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Apr-2004 16:54:15 (#7743)

Interesting, being that merely possessing something cannot be fraudulent, and none of the activities you mention represent a fraudulent use. E.g., renting a hotel room under an assumed name, so what, if you have paid for the services rendered you haven't defrauded anyone. Redeeming comps might be a stronger argument because the purpose of the comps is to reward some people and not others. Using fake ID to buy alcohol when underaged is even tougher, being that although underaged drinking is illegal, it isn't fraudulent as long as you pay for your booze. It looks like this is going to have to undergo some legal review and clarification of the words they use. This is a danger that always exists when they right laws to feel good instead of to do good.

the greater issue is one of fake i.d.
Posted by gehrig on 21-Apr-2004 18:05:07 (#7747)

it seems that we are at war, leastwise there are multiple groups who have invaded our country so as to perform terrorist acts. hence, the ability of any peace officer to properly identify a suspect is welcomed by those who have nothing to conceal. producing false i.d. would justify further inquiry. same as a fellow who had multiple driver's licenses in multiple states, because of multiple violations. since a licensed (liquor) establishment is required to verify the age of all guests, the guest must either furnish satisfactory i.d. or immediately leave.

same with nevada gaming. not commonly known is that even the beverage servers, beyond the dealers, pitstiffs, security and surveillance agents, are licensed by the nevada gaming commission. they are required to inquire of any guest of questionable age, that they produce i.d.. failure to do that, and the joint is fined, and the individual who didn't ask for the i.d., may lose their ability to work in nevada gaming.

as a sidelight to that, while in college, i worked as a bartender at an 18 year old beer bar. the "record" for the oldest guy "i.d.'d" was 34. not my record.

consider if i had a stolen credit card in my possession. even if i wasn't apprehended in attempting to use it, if found on my person, why wouldn't i expect to be arrested ?

the issue is that one may legally change his/her name. perhaps if some of the posters had traveled in (mostly socialist) europe, you might understand that they've been requiring police registration of all guests, since at least the 60's. the hotel keeper, even pensione keepers, customarily made available to the police, usually each evening, the travel documents of registered guests. typically the guest would surrender his passport at check in. same on an international passenger carrying ship (even "cargo ships"), to be held by the purser, saved for inspection by officials of any visited port.

i stopped carrying fake i.d.'s when i reached majority.

Re: the greater issue is one of fake i.d.
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-Apr-2004 02:11:12 (#7751)

Very true, being in possession of any falsified or inaccurate document automatically makes one a suspect. But it doesn't make one guilty of anything. Celebrities used to do it all the time, have credit cards and fake ID under different names to protect their privacy when making hotel reservations and such. Done to protect one's privacy it is just fine, if you do it to skip out on a bill that's a different story.

Doing it to get away with being a card counter is somewhere in between; what we do is not illegal but entering the premises after we've been read the trespass act is. What isn't illegal is to use it to dilute the effect of being Griffinized. If you are playing under a fake name and you get busted, that fake name is going to be entered into their computer and it won't follow you down the street where you'll be using a different fake name. Your picture will of course but that's a lot harder for a computer to recognize.

Incidentally, when I was underage I drank like a Freemason, but being I looked about 5 years older than I was I never was asked for ID.

Soft 18 basic strategy
Posted by Dschddny on 21-Apr-2004 08:28:44 (#7726)

One move that I often get dealers and ploppies looking at me like I'm nuts (and I sometimes start to question myself) is when I hit or double on a soft 18.

What is the correct basic strategy move for this (or even true count variation)? My understanding is that it is Double vs 3-6, Stand vs 2,7, or 8, and Hit vs 9 or 10. Is that correct?

I am playing 8-deck in Atlantic City (yes I know that 8-deck is terrible, but this is my only option to play).

Thanks!

Follow this link
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Apr-2004 10:13:06 (#7729)

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/basic/basic.htm

Re: Soft 18 basic strategy
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Apr-2004 10:13:38 (#7730)

Correct

http://members.rogers.com/blackjackprofessional/flash.htm

http://members.rogers.com/blackjackprofessional/hitstand.htm

Re: Soft 18 basic strategy
Posted by MrPill on 21-Apr-2004 11:06:18 (#7733)

Correct and I would also hit A7 against an Ace too.

Pill

Re: Soft 18 basic strategy
Posted by Victoria on 21-Apr-2004 12:16:11 (#7735)

The links supplied to you earlier will give you all the tech backup your mind should need.
Hitting or doubling soft 18 or splitting 9,9 is just about always going to bring ploppy heat and heat from dealers who do not know how to play the game. The basic idea of the ploppy is that 18 is a good hand but we know, on the average it is not and especially not against 9,10 or A. Doubling that soft 18 gets you more money on the table while you have the advantage. These players are in some way benifical to us. Without their poor play more casinos would introduce more bad rules if they had to live with their BS advantage of say .5%in a shoe game. These plays and others probably bring their real profit to perhaps much closer or above 2% and gives us the chance to play with an advantage. So you just have to take the dirty looks or comments when things go bad or sometimes you are left with no choice but to say something.

I made a post the other day on a different board discussing my splitting 9,9 against a dealer 6 and the nutso woman at third base with a soft 18. I split and it works well. I get an A on the first 9 and then a 2, double and a 10. The woman stays on her soft 18, dealer turns 16 and hits a 3, loosing to me but beating her. She goes nuts about what a horrible play splitting a perfectly good 18 is and of course, taking the dealers bust card. When she actually got out of her chair and came next to me to yell, I just was not going to sit there silent. Stood up (I am a head taller than her) and told her if she had doubled she would have hit 21 and would be very happy and quiet now, saw the pit boss coming and sat back down. He sorts out what happens and tells her, "maam, players can play their hands any way they want, blackjack is not a team game." A line I have used myself.
As a bonus, she storms over to the next table leaving me heads up with a count over +3.
These kind of things do not happen that often and I realize that when it happens between two guys there is a better chance that it could escalate to more than words but in order to make money in blackjack you really can not give away these basic plays in order to maintain friendship on the table.

As far as dealers are concerned, many do not know how to play. Others are political and will take the side of the majority or the biggest tippers. Smart ones laugh to themselves, tell stories in the break room but just deal the cards on the table.

Re: fighting at the table
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Apr-2004 17:04:27 (#7744)

Strangely enough Victoria I think that men are less likely to get physical with one another over that kind of thing than women. Most men who habitually get into fights quickly end up someplace where there are no blackjack tables so we have it socialized out of us. We can also get killed, whereas when women fistfight usually nothing too serious happens and certain very strange men even find it attractive.

Although one time I did blow up at someone. This guy cursed me and told me to "Get the f. away from the table" because he did not like my play and the result of the hand was not what he wanted. Now this guy was of a background that I naturally have little patience with anyway (Hint: they have a history of flying airplanes into our buildings) so I jumped up and yelled "No you get the f. away from the table. And while you're at it, get the f. out of my country, you SOB. You don't belong here!" The dealer and PC sternly admonished us both about our language, and after a few minutes the guy left. True, I shouldn't have said that but he deserved it. Now I avoid all confrontational behavior at the table because it can cause your picture to be taken and your face remembered.

Soft 18 is one of Ploppy BS.
Posted by V-man on 21-Apr-2004 22:39:10 (#7750)

Soft 18 is a play that teaches me a lot about ploppies. These people don't play BJ with logic, they play with their emotion amd feelings. I once teaches a friend of mine about the play, and at first she follow BS properly but then again and again she stop hitting against dealer upcard 10. I ask her why and she said that standing seems to do better for her. Ploppies play with their strong feelings, hitting on soft 18, getting a 6, then another card to bust when dealer turning up a 6 under and proceed to bust, is a very memorable experience for the ploppies.
Every ploppy at my local casino play the same, they seem to conform to certain 'Ploppy BS', and believes that if you play differently then their 'Ploppy BS', you will screw the 'flow of cards'. And the worst thing is that they would hold on to this crappy BS, like their own religion, and also expect everyone at the table to follow this kind of belief. This creates a lot of pressure onto newcomers, forcing them to follow this 'religion'.
This experience with ploppies made me understood why so many ploppies play the way they play, disregarding the pile of blackjack books, internet, colorful BS charts, etc ... Nothing will convince them. That's also why casinos are getting away with crappy games like 6:5.
God save the .. ploppies!

DHL Package Transit Xpress
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Apr-2004 17:21:04 (#7746)

Do you use letters to sidecount aces? If so, you may find the process of converting letters back to numbers and reconciling them with the number of decks left to be onerous and an unappreciated additional task at the table, especially with shoe.

The title of this message is a mnemonic that can help. Each letter capitalized represents a letter which is a multiple of 4. D=4, H=8, L=12, and so on. When you hit one of these letters you can look at the discards and see how many decks left and more quickly calculate the density of remaining aces.

Of course, X is 24 so this will only take you up to a 6 deck shoe. If you play 8 deck with good pen you'll need to add something to this.

Re: DHL Package Transit Xpress
Posted by John on 23-Apr-2004 07:16:02 (#7760)

off-topic but here it goes.

Automatic,

I think you are a pretty down-to-earch guy so what do you think about doubling a soft 20 vs 4-6

Wong's Basic Hi-LO says to do it given a high enough TC.

Have you ever doubled a soft 20? I can imagine the ploppy responses from this. I had one get mad at hitting a soft 18 vs a 10.

Re: DHL Package Transit Xpress
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 23-Apr-2004 08:59:43 (#7762)

I've done it. The counts are about the same as Splitting 10s (something I don't normally do.) And yes, I have felt wrath from the other players at the table, sometimes I am able to turn that around and get them on my side.

Just double on the soft 20 with a "I FEEL LIKE GAMBOOWLING!" and then they started rooting for me to get an ACE or FACE on the hand.

Re: DHL Package Transit Xpress
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-Apr-2004 11:01:48 (#7764)

Well, maybe. You do what the count says unless you think it will be too much of a giveaway as a counter. You have to use your judgment on that: kind of environment, kind of stake, how much heat, what are other players at the table doing.

There's just a little more to it than that however. When deciding what doubling or splitting indexes you want to play, you have to determine how much more money you will make playing the index and decide it is worth it to put an extra bet out on the table. Let's say your sims calculate that you will make an average of 10 cents more by DD a soft 20 at a certain count with a certain betting unit. But to do this requires you to put out an extra $150 bet. Do you want to risk $150 to make $0.10? Of course not! That is why I use a very limited number of double and split indexes, and there are no A9 among them. A8, yes, those are worthwhile because they pay decently and you do it at counts where you don't have a big bet up. Splitting 10's I do- there is always a big bet up when you do it but they are among the more lucrative of playing indexes.

Re: DHL Package Transit Xpress
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Apr-2004 12:47:36 (#7767)

In the here and now you either win or lose 150 or 300. In a million decisions you could lose a million dimes. That is 666 double downs. You may have a devil of a time making your mind up to play in the hear and now, or play like you will be playing for an eternity. ;> You can use your intuition, or trust the math. Do you trust your intuition to tell you when you are being watched by the eYe, or your intuition about the random possibility that the next card could be..........

The Ace of Spades

cheats?
Posted by cphessy on 21-Apr-2004 19:16:11 (#7748)

Is there any website that posts lists of casinos with suspected cheating dealers?

Re: cheats?
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Apr-2004 22:30:47 (#7749)

None that I am aware of. If you want to start one, this is your chance.

www.cheatingdealers.com is available.

--Mayor

Ken Uston
Posted by SammyBoy on 22-Apr-2004 11:30:23 (#7757)

I've been reading books by Ken Uston and ran across this interesting article by A. Snyder.

http://www.bjfonline.com/Library/ustoobit.htm

Re: Ken Uston
Posted by suicyco maniac on 22-Apr-2004 23:05:53 (#7759)

I read this a while back on bjfonline.....any chance you could dig up the Dog Ass Johnny article on match plays they had on that site....TOP NOTCH a must read!!!

Re: Ken Uston
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Apr-2004 07:41:06 (#7761)

In the second last BJF mag Munchkin was interviewing a gent that worked with Ken and I THINK he mentioned that he died of an OD of heroin. If you want to understand more about Ken and his personality read that article. He was a great blackjack player, but also a loud mouth self promoter that was an unhappy drug abuser. He also wrote a bunch of books about beating Packman and other Atari style games. I am reading KU on Blackjack wich is similar to the stories in M$BJ. I also have The Big Player which, once again, look like pages out of M$BJ. M$BJ has Kens blackjack knowledge in it, the others are stories that point at this knowledge. I feel that M$BJ was edited properly so that his knowledge could shine through.

I felt like I found out Santa Claus wasn't real again after reading that article. Better to know the truth IMO. I still love Ken and his book M$BJ, my first blackjack book. We can extract the knowledge and kick the rest to the curb as long as we can separate fact from fiction.

Re: Ken Uston
Posted by Shaggy18vw on 24-Apr-2004 17:38:20 (#7778)

I found Ken's development of the methods of playing Pac-Man to be helpful in my lifelong quest to beat those little ghosts.

Actually it is just a cool addition to my Blackjack library. The Pac-Man book is usually available on eBay.

Big Swing in Detroit
Posted by MrPill on 23-Apr-2004 11:41:43 (#7765)

Played twice this week in Detroit.

First day I was about 20 units ahead after a couple hours of play and came into an extremely high count in the second half of a shoe. Everyone around me was winning hands and I was being given a ton of double down hands. Ended up loosing 25 units before the shoe was over. Ended this sessions down 5 units.

Had the chance to play at the same place 3 days later and ended up having many neutral to slightly positive shoes. It was as if I could not loose a hand. After 3 hours of play I ended up 44 units.

Good thing for me the table minimum was higher on my second outing and resulted in my best one time $ win to date!

I love this game!

Pill

Re: Big Swing in Detroit
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Apr-2004 12:33:40 (#7766)

It makes you crazy don't it? I mean we study so hard to get our counting perfect and then you play into a nice flat game and can't stop for winning. Don't fall in love with those chips. You'll be kissing them goodbye and hello so many times your lips will get sore! ;>

PS Thought you were mentioning Calgary kicking Det's ASS in hockey. What a 2.4:1 payoff that was.

Re: Big Swing in Detroit
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-Apr-2004 13:14:38 (#7768)

Good show! But don't call that a big swing. Last time I played, I was down 60 units in one hour. Almost seems impossible, doesn't it? Three hours later i walked out of this place 12 units up. My units are green. It's so painful, but I've gotten used to it finally. Trips like yours are helpful, build up confidence.

Re: Big Swing in Detroit
Posted by CanKen on 23-Apr-2004 17:22:23 (#7769)

A few days ago I wonged in at a decent count at a table with only two others. Count quickly rose to the max; I bet my max - and lost 80 units in about 12 minutes. Couldn't even win an insurance bet. Those are the ones that are hard to take. Everything is right except the dealer gets the good cards and you get stiffs. I seem to be getting used to it. It doesn't ruin my day the way it would have a couple of years ago.
(P.S.- Got most of it back yesterday.)

Sounds familiar
Posted by suicyco maniac on 23-Apr-2004 22:36:34 (#7771)

Sounds very simiar to the day I had last month. First shoe I sit down at the count skyrockets and I start firing away and lose 83 units in one shoe...managed to get back to almost even but made sure to leave while I was still down a little over 2K

Swing anecdotes
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Apr-2004 18:44:30 (#7770)

Playing a shoe max bet is about 12 units, so you only swung throug 3 or 4 max bets, which can happen in a single hand with DAS.

Here are a few swings I've encountered ...

...I had my largest one shoe win ever followed by my largest one shoe loss ever. Consecutive shoes. A 200+ unit swing in 2 shoes.

...After years of play, I had my largest one-day loss ever (to that point) followed on three consecutive days by even larger losses.

...A few years back, I made more in one 4 hour session than I made in the next three years that followed that session.

If you're not getting huge swings, then you're not putting enough money out there at the good counts.

--Mayor

Re: Swing anecdotes
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 23-Apr-2004 23:36:02 (#7772)

If you're not getting huge swings, then you're not putting enough money out there at the good counts.

Thanks for the reminder. I've been playing a little tentative for a few months.

Good time for the following question:

Does anyone ever use the 'let it ride' act to the end of a shoe while the C is a monster? In other words; Does anyone ever try and pull off a big win with just letting their bets parlay until they either lose all the earnings of the shoe or maybe pull off a big win and clean out the entire tray?

Re: Letting it ride at the end of the shoe
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Apr-2004 09:54:39 (#7774)

I've been tempted, and one day I might. One thing that holds me back is that I don't know all the playing indexes on the huge counts. If I ever do it it will be in a game that has LSR so I can bail on a stiff. All the LSR indexes I know because they do wonders for your standard deviation.

This is something I'd do at the end of a big winning night. Just imagine, you are up $2500, and on your last hand of the night you have a TC=+10, so you put out two hands of $1K each, knowing even if you lose them both you will leave a winner up above your EV. What's the worst that can happen? I'll tell you. Dealer shows A, you take insurance and lose. You were dealt two 11's, you dig deep to DD on both. Stiff and stiff. Dealer rolls a 9. Best night of your life to worst night of your life in one hand.

Re: Letting it ride at the end of the shoe
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 24-Apr-2004 10:10:16 (#7775)

Best night of your life to worst night of your life in one hand

There are much better odds it will be just the opposite. :-)

Bad idea
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Apr-2004 11:26:36 (#7776)

>There are much better odds it will be just the opposite. :-)

No, that's false. You have a better than 50% chance of losing your initial bet, probably closer to a 55% chance of losing your initial bet. Remember, the way we make money in BJ is by splitting, doubling down, and blackjacks. That is what brings us back to the advantage.

If you overbet your bankroll consistently, then there is a 100% chance you will go broke. If you overbet yoru bankroll once in a while, you are introducing a huge amount of variance for very little EV.

I strongly discourage the move you posed. If you are up $2500 at the end of the night, that is your money, add it to your bankroll, resize your bets using the Kelly criterion, and make the proper bets next time around. Do not risk it all on a few monster counts.

--Mayor

Still a little uncertain, need more please
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 24-Apr-2004 22:53:53 (#7781)

You have a better than 50% chance of losing your initial bet, probably closer to a 55% chance of losing your initial bet.

I believe this to be true. However, given the benefit of extra aces & faces there is a better chance of hooking a BJ especially with two hands, which of course pays 3 to 2. Prior to your post above, I assumed the power of the aces are so much more in favor of the player that the pay-out advantage is there in behalf of the player even though the win rate is less than 50%. Also, if the D happens to show a bad card, we can split and double 'til the cows come home. Face cards included.

Based on what you said though, I can assume the pay advantage must still not be good enough to over bet our bank roll.

Re: Bad idea indeed
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-Apr-2004 00:11:53 (#7782)

"If you overbet your bankroll consistently, then there is a 100% chance you will go broke. If you overbet your bankroll once in a while, you are introducing a huge amount of variance for very little EV."

I agree with most of what you said which is why I will probably do this move only in my sick and kinky fantasies. But I don't believe that there is a 100% chance of going broke if you consistently overbet. Nothing is 100% in this game.

There's a point well below the Kelly criterion where the chances of you increasing your bankroll to a proper Kelly level are greater than your risk of ruin, and that's what I shoot for.

Re: Bad idea indeed
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Apr-2004 11:13:11 (#7783)

>But I don't believe that there is a 100% chance of going broke if you consistently overbet. Nothing is 100% in this game.

People often mistake 100% with certain. They are not the same thing. Here is an example:

Play a game with a friend tossing a fair coin. If the coin is heads, pay him $1, if it is tails, he pays you $3. Every 2 tosses you expect to win $2, so you have an EV of 100%. Now toss the coin once. Even though your EV is 100%, you have a 50% chance of losing!

Likewise, pick a number at random between 0 and 1. It is 100% certain that you will pick an irrational number (the rationals have measure 0). That does not mean there are no rational numbers.

Don't confuse 100% with certain. They are not the same thing.

If you overbet your bankroll consistently betting 2 x kelly (or larger), chances are 100% that you will go broke.

--Mayor

Still puzzled a little???
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 25-Apr-2004 21:37:23 (#7785)

If you overbet your bankroll consistently (emphasis added) betting 2 x kelly (or larger), chances are 100% that you will go broke.

Mayor, thanks for the mathematical clarifications. I'm just not sure how you and A.M. are using the word 'consistently' though. Does it mean constantly?

I guess I'm still wondering how many bets and hands have to be played for there to be a 100% chance of going broke if an A.P. were to bet 2 X Kelly with a TC of +10?

Re: Still puzzled a little???
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Apr-2004 12:24:09 (#7790)

2xkelly depends only on the current count (which generates a current EV), and your current bankroll.

For example, if you have a $10,000 bankroll, and you have a TC of +10, for about a 4.5% advantage, full kelly would have you bet $450. 2xkelly would be a $900 bet in this situation.

I don't want to discuss voodoo, and betting absurdly large amounts at the end of a shoe for some strange reason is patently voodoo.

-Mayor

Re: Still puzzled a little???
Posted by Inskipp on 26-Apr-2004 14:33:28 (#7794)

Mayor, sometimes really smart people skip steps in their explanations because it is obvious to them, but it is not obvious to us.

I believe you that it is voodoo but I don't understand why it is voodoo. When the count is very high, any bet has positive EV. And while CONSISTENTLY betting too high for the bankroll leads to ruin, an occasional bet too big for the bankroll, at +EV, wouldn't, would it?

Re: Still puzzled a little???
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Apr-2004 16:13:22 (#7795)

>an occasional bet too big for the bankroll, at +EV, wouldn't, would it?

If you are an advantage player, there is NEVER a time you should overbet your bankroll. There are NO circumstances under which it is ok to do so. If you are doing it once in a while it is still NOT ok.

Sorry to sound preachy. This is just the truth. There are no exceptions.

Now, if you are happy to play without an advantage, you are welcome to play and do if you like.

Betting too large is as sure are path to ruin as progressions or other flim-flam systems. Don't do it.

These are my last words on this. Maybe someone with more patience can continue.

--Mayor

Re: Still puzzled a little???
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Apr-2004 16:51:55 (#7796)

OK Mayor I have patience, let me see if I can clarify. The use of the word "advantage" here and saying you don't have an advantage if you overbet your bankroll is misleading because when our simulators tell us we have a +1.8% initial bet advantage at TC+7 we have that advantage whether we are overbetting our bankrolls or not. In the big picture, you put yourself at a disadvantage as a gamer when you overbet because once you run out of money you have to stop playing, and the variance in blackjack is so high that we need a large ratio of bankroll to bet in order to be reasonably sure we will not have to stop playing. If the house was willing to extend you unlimited credit this wouldn't be an issue because your bankroll would be in effect unlimited.

There's this rule I have I call the rule of eight- I do not place a bet unless I have 8 times the amount available either in chips or cash right at that moment, enough for four splits and four doubles. I adopted this rule as a result of an unpleasant experience that caused me to have a losing night. Now if I have a good count I'm willing to bet 1/8 of the money I have in my possession because for that hand, the odds are in my favor, providing I have enough to split and double which is necessary for the odds to be in my favor. And if I lose it's not like I will be out of blackjack, this is just a part time job for me and I have enough regular income to easily fund another BJ bankroll should disaster strike. Let me clarify this- I am not 'consistently' overbetting the way the Mayor is admonishing against- I'm betting at the same level now as I was when I had 1/4 of the funds available, and I will probably be betting at the same level until I have a proper Kelly bankroll. So every time I have a winning night, which I and all counters do more often than not, a little bit of my problem goes away. Strict adherence to the Kelly criterion is a good idea for professionals who have no other source of income and who will be hitchhiking back to Mom's house should they lose their money but for the rest of us I'm a proponent of betting a little less conservatively to maximize the leverage we get from good counts.

Interesting Thread
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 27-Apr-2004 07:43:14 (#7799)

I have had this discussion in other forums with some amazing people, with excellent math skills, excellent table talents, you name it. The bottom line is you THINK you have a 1.8% advantage, so you apply that to your bankroll and place your bet. Half Kelly as is favored by many, full Kelly, but you are using what you know to make that bet. What if I am sitting there and have been watching the shuffle for the last few hours and I know what the count is but also know you are casting your net where there are no fish?? A little later you see the count go down to -TC and I push my black pawns into battle position. You think I have lost my marbles (always a good bet, take it! ;>) but I know otherwise. You can have two professional sports capers going against each other, both betting whale loads of greens on their team. Who has the advantage? How big is that advantage? Do you really KNOW? Which guy is dealing voodoo and which guy actually using his brains? Well, maybe after the game we will know. Probably not. Why not? Variance, another thing we can quantify with a bag of numbers and a bowl of alphagetti.

Much of what we do is based on an approximation of what we think our edge is. I have been so sure of myself at times that I have stated "bet the farm on it," or just bet all your cattle, pigs, etc. I'm not talking about betting a portion of the bank here, I'm talking all of it. When I am so sure about the opportunity I will trust my calcs, even if there seems to be no advantage what so ever. I'll bet you everything that after the night time falls, the day will follow type of bet, even if the odds are -9900. I STILL have a 1% edge.

Re: 100%, got it
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Apr-2004 12:29:17 (#7791)

Ah OK, as in "100% increase in profits". Different than the colloquial use of the number. Last fall I started counting $15 and $25 games with $1000 in my pocket. Last night I walked out of the casino with $8K. Lucky as hell, yes I know. Confucius say: better lucky than good. Best of all to be both!

interesting post, thanks *NM*
Posted by John Lewis on 29-Apr-2004 22:22:26 (#7840)

Tables in WGBB Correct?
Posted by Baps on 24-Apr-2004 06:10:44 (#7773)

Hey gang, I've been reading "The World's Greatest Blackjack Book" by Humble and Cooper. Great book, but one item in their tables has me confused.

They are saying to Stand on hard-16 against dealer 10 if the Hi-Opt1 True Count is >= 0. This seems contradictory to the basic strategy play of hitting in that situation.
(Page 254 of the soft-cover version)

Is this right, or is it an error in the book?

My guess is this is an error, that the correct play is to only Stand if the TC is >0, but not equal to 0. Your thoughts?

Regards,
Baps

Tables in WGBB Correct!
Posted by Shaggy18vw on 24-Apr-2004 17:35:02 (#7777)

Basic Strategy is based on not knowing the count. Or better yet, it is based on an average of all counts for the person who is not keeping track. Once you are keeping track, according to WGBB it is correct to stand at >=0 with a 16v10.

Re: Tables in WGBB Correct? *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 24-Apr-2004 19:04:46 (#7779)

"This seems contradictory to the basic strategy play of hitting in that situation."

You are right, it is contradictory. However, it is also correct.

Stand on 16 vs T when the count is >= 0.

The difference between hitting and standing on 16 vs T when the count is exactly zero will, as one famous author frequently says, "Buy you a hot dog on the Boardwalk". But, stand is the correct play.

Re: Tables in WGBB Correct? *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 24-Apr-2004 19:06:53 (#7780)

Don't know where this *link* *pic* stuff is coming from,
looks like I might have come down with a BAD virus.

Re: Tables in WGBB Correct?
Posted by John on 26-Apr-2004 01:27:58 (#7787)

Go here:

http://trojanscan.com/

and here:

http://housecall.trendmicro.com/

and scan with Ad-aware

You can get it here:

http://download.com.com/3000-2144-10045910.html?part=69274&subj=dlpage&tag=button

That is what I do to keep my pc clean. I also have Norton Antivirus 2004 but trendmicro has found some things that Norton didn't. These scans do take a long time so its best to do it when you aren't using your pc. Also, I find it helpful to increase the security level of my Internet Explorer to the High level. To do this, go to Tools--->Internet Options --->Security---->Custom Level---> Where it says "reset to" click on the arrow and then click on "High" then click the "Reset" button . Then click "Ok" and "Ok" . You'll get warnings that the ActiveX things on websites aren't loading and that is how you usually get infected so it is working. But, you do need to go back there where you reset it to High and enable the File Download part if you need to download something. Also Javascript is disabled with this setting. What I do if I need javascript is change it back to low then when I'm done change it to High again. Hope all this helps.

A Virus...Suuuuure! =) *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 26-Apr-2004 12:40:06 (#7792)

Yes, for sure.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 26-Apr-2004 13:40:49 (#7793)

I have ad-aware and run it often, but it is frustrating that these are all passive type of tools, ad-aware is not the answer.

I clean stuff up with ad-aware, I sign-on to the web (I think my browser has been hijacked and maybe some critical .DLL files replaced???) and the same old spyware crap gets downloaded, waiting for ad-aware to be run again.

When I set up my new computer, it had about 40 processes running when I did a Ctrl-Alt-Del and showed them. Now, I am lucky if I have 50 running when I do a reboot.

I try to set my home page to 'www.yahoo.com' and as soon as I save it, my default home page gets set back to some spam search page instantly.

LaunchCast internet radio service from Yahoo stopped working for me yesterday.

**** **** ****

I am ready to simply track down some of these Spyware Outfits and simply kick their door in and beat them over the head with a baseball bat, then provide them with a bill for my 'enhancement' to their web surfing usage.

Of course, whether they want it or not, I will be back the next day to beat them in the head with a bat again. I mean, that is the same way their obnoxious pop-up software works, isn't it? Then invite a few friends over to take a whack at them the next day.

Shouldn't have any complaints. And if I do, would any jury of 12 people in the land convict me for harming a Spammer-hacker-popup adder?

**** **** ****

Wife
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 27-Apr-2004 07:12:41 (#7798)

was using my PC two days ago and typed in a URL and must have mispelled something. My daughter was there and a bunch of porn came up so she tried to close it and got a bunch of pop ups. She reached for the kill switch and switched it off and on really fast. My daughter told her not to turn it off and on so fast, which I had told her once when it froze on her a while back. I had to reinstall Me and I still can't get IExplore working. Scandisk wouldn't work in Windows, had to go in thru good old DOS to do it first. Said something about Yahoo! Messenger being the wrong size etc. I got this machine so I could give my daughter my old one so things like this would not happen. Sheesh!! ;>

Re: Wife
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Apr-2004 12:54:38 (#7802)

Install the google toolbar for surfing, available at http://toolbar.google.com/ , it has built in pop-up blocker. You can also adjust the settings on IE to disallow content.

--Mayor

Re: Wife *LINK*
Posted by HiNoon on 27-Apr-2004 17:16:47 (#7805)

Yes, it's always an interesting discussion explaining why your history files pop up URL's for the not so innocent looking "BJ21" and other similarly named sites.

Talk about learning to pay attention to where you dot your coms. ;)

C:
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 28-Apr-2004 06:09:07 (#7814)

It looks like I will have to format C and start from scratch, but I always save the important files to D, like my online casinos, webpages, etc, so my operating system is on C and that's about it.

Abraham, please read
Posted by John on 29-Apr-2004 12:46:13 (#7825)

Sorry about your troubles. If you trust me enough, I can send you something via e-mail that could help you.

Otherwise, make sure you use the WebUpdate feature in Ad-aware and download the newest reference file.

I forgot one more thing.

There is a program called "Hijack This".

It is an exploratory-type of program. If you really want to clean your pc of those things, I would download "Hijack this" and run it, save the log and then go to a tech support forum and paste the log and a description of your problems. There are people that can help you eliminate that stuff for free.
Here is the url for Hijack This

http://download.com.com/3000-2144-10227352.html

Just got back from my first trip as a green chipper !! I feel great !! Up 98 units in 3 days. And those are green !!

Re: Abraham, please read
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Apr-2004 13:23:25 (#7828)

Thanks bro. I went and deleted a bunch of files and folders that I found were little caches of adware, and hae a few more to do when I get home. I've been able to get IExplore running again, which keeps me in the game so to speak. Ran over it all with SpyBot and another program Stinger? and ran a virus protection program over it all.

Great news on your green chip action! A few more years and you'll be blackbelt blackchip material.

Waytago!

Rob (a distant son of Abraham maybe? ;>)

Thanks Every One!
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 30-Apr-2004 09:03:10 (#7851)

Hijack This! seems to be a good answer.

However, this is all passive.

I wish there was a product that would monitor and pop-up and say "Hey, some process is trying to change your home page!" or "Do you really want PORN.COM added to your list of favorites" and "How many special toolbar buttons do you need?" so you can stop the stuff while it is happening, instead of always cleaning up after the damage is done.

I like the new "No 6:5" Banner! *NM*
Posted by Titaniumman on 25-Apr-2004 23:10:44 (#7786)

Re: I like the new "No 6:5" Banner!
Posted by Learning to count on 26-Apr-2004 08:39:36 (#7789)

I was talking with the LVBear and he said that the suckers are flocking to the tables where ever they are at in LV. Sad situation in our world! Oh well back to the six deck wonders. Two decks are still abundant but the cut card is stingy. How ya been Titaniumm Man. Long time no see! I hope things are going good.

Re: I like the new "No 6:5" Banner!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Apr-2004 22:42:21 (#7797)

Hey don't panic, you can make a decent living playing 6D as long as you tune your system for it. Wong, Wong, Wong. This summer I'm planning on raiding Caesar's and the right decent shoe game they have there.

Re: I like the new "No 6:5" Banner!
Posted by Learning to count on 27-Apr-2004 08:13:54 (#7800)

You must be good to beat the heat at Ceasars. I would be careful.

mentor count
Posted by cphessy on 27-Apr-2004 12:36:51 (#7801)

Hello all,

I've been successfully using HiLo with I18 for awhile now, and am thinking of moving up to a level 2 system.

Any opinions on Fred Renzey's Mentor Count?

It seems pretty sound, except the truing to 2 decks throws me off a bit. Also, there is only 1 set of indices given for count play. Isn't the threshold for certain plays dependant on the number of decks?

Re: mentor count
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Apr-2004 21:47:14 (#7810)

-- my responses:

I've been successfully using HiLo with I18 for awhile now, and am thinking of moving up to a level 2 system.

-- stay w/level1 and add more indices/play faster/longer.

Any opinions on Fred Renzey's Mentor Count?

-- somebody please explain what renzey's-mentor is?

It seems pretty sound, except the truing to 2 decks throws me off a bit.

-- you may have some confusion, how do you do it now?

Also, there is only 1 set of indices given for count play. Isn't the threshold for certain plays dependant on the number of decks?

-- NO, use ONE set for any #decks. zg

Re: mentor count
Posted by Cyrano on 27-Apr-2004 22:40:35 (#7812)

It's a level 2 unbalanced count with the same pe's/bc's as UBZII. I wasn't able to find the tag values though.

I agree.. learn more indices. No matter if you learn a different count, if you're playing pitch games (you mentioned 2D games), learn more indices!

If you get confused with TC conversions, it's probably good for you to change to the mentor count.

By the way, try this "other" way of TC conversion (presented by Snyder's BBinBJ): instead of dividing the RC by the number of decks, try dividing the RC by the index number. That should give you a "minimum number of decks left" needed for you to vary your play.

Re: mentor count
Posted by cphessy on 28-Apr-2004 14:59:20 (#7820)

actually its a balanced count
indices are -1,1,2,2,2,2,1,0,-1,-2

with regards to the indices being the same for any given number of decks
http://www.cardcounter.com/indices/-11111100-1.htm

the above link instructs different play for SD,DD, and 6D
and its from this website as well

i have been following that link for I18 play with hilo and i'm now wondering which set of indices is correct.

Re: mentor count ONE SET!
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Apr-2004 15:35:18 (#7833)

Never mind Elliot's chart, just learn ONE SET of #s for any #decks! zg

Re: mentor count *LINK*
Posted by Cyrano on 29-Apr-2004 17:58:32 (#7835)

Odd, I thought I read somewhere that it was unbalanced. My fault. In any case, it's interesting to see how close it is to the Zen count. Here's a little tidbit I'd like to throw in. I've recently been studying Brett Harris' work and he's discovered that counting the 9 as a -1 is harmful to win rates even though it boosts BC. The alternative is to learn the Zen count.

Rookies 1st 2 trips
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 27-Apr-2004 13:16:20 (#7803)

These are my first two trip reports from last year. I figured that it may bring back memories for the veterans, and may be interesting for peeps like myself who are new to AP.

I can not stress enough that it is crucial to have sufficiant bank roll, and the need to wong under these conditions, and never to over bet, but at the time I was still learning, and just wasn't aware that these issues are crucial.

Since these trips, I have have adjusted my bank roll, will only play at $10 min tables, and although it took a while, I am getting good at back counting and wonging in and out. I have only played at one casino, and so far little to no heat. (Not counting St. Louis because I only played 4 hands due to the dreadful conditions.)

Day One:

My first card counting adventure: "Applying theory to real life."

Prior to this trip, I have never been in a casino, read a few well known books, and learned and practiced the Hi-Lo for about 3 months.

The cab was late, I just made it to the bus terminal in time to catch the 7:20am bus from home town. There were a lot of trashy people on the bus. But it was OK. Instead of practicing counting on the way, like I planned too, I stuffed my laptop in the overhead and was trying to get some sleep on this 2 and a half hour ride.

I got to the casino at about 10:00am or so. Everyone on the bus dashed for the entrance, to get to their favorite slot machine! I was just happy this long ride was over and I didn't get car sick. I got off the bus, got some much needed fresh air, and had a smoke.

I walked into the casino but had no plans to start to count today, unless I felt comfortable. I was just trying to get acclimated to a casino environment, not ever being in one before. I found a table with the lowest minimum bet, $15 (8 Deck shoe - good rules) and asked the dealer for $100 worth of chips.

I was betting $15-$30 using basic strategy, I won at first, but after about an hour I was down to my last bet. It was a friendly table, so I bought another $100 worth of chips, again using basic strategy, that was gone in about 20 minutes.

Being $200 in the hole, almost half of betting capital was gone, but I still had 4 hours to go before my bus would leave, so I knew that I had to change what ever I was doing.

I went into the Keno bar to use my $10 Keno coupon that came with the bus ticket. It was good for 5 free games. I didn't win, but it was good just to relax for a half hour, have a cold soda, and regain my composer.

I went to a different area on the other side of the casino. It was very different form the one I just left. Instead of being wide open, well lit, more friendly peeps, it was more like dark, very crowded, very loud. Not that I am prejudice in anyway shape or form, but I couldn't help but notice that 95% of people there were Asian.

Now it gets good...

I approach a table with an open seat. It is a $25 minimum, 8 deck shoe, with great penetration. Everyone except for the dealer is Asian, and they are all talking to each other in Korean or something. Like I said it was very loud, but for some reason, I felt a lot more comfortable than earlier today, in the more friendly casino.. go figure.

I figure that I would stay at this table for at least an hour, so I would try to keep the running count of the cards, just to see if I can do it in real life. I figured no body was speaking English, so I wouldn't have any distractions..

The count was running high, It was RC +13 with about 75% of the shoe gone. Then it was like vultures swarming on dead corpse. The guy sitting to my left, went from playing $25 a hand, to putting about $600 worth of chips on the next hand. Some guy who acted like Vinny Barbarino sat to the right of me. I could tell he wasn't from money, but he was betting $100 a hand now, instead of minimum. I also noticed that 3 ladies had people back betting on their hands, all high wagers. I then was certain I was at on of these so called "HOT" shoes.

If there was any heat to be had from the dealer, or Pit boss, it would surely be directed at anyone one of the obvious people around me.

Me and Vinny double, tripled, our bets, cleaning up. At one point, the guy to the right of me brought so much attention to him self, that I felt my cover wouldn't even be suspect.(He doubled down on 10-2 with the dealer showing 15??? This confused me, I'm still not sure of the reasoning behind this?) He won the hand.

The positive shoe ended. Most of the people left this table, as I should of. It was basically just me and Vinny, and the cute girl he was trying to pick up. I don't think Vinny was actually counting, but I think he was smart enough to know when other people was. I was looking a about $1100 worth of chips in front me! With about 2 hours to go before by bus would leave.

I still counted, I was like a fly on the wall, watching people swarm the table as the count grew, to abandon it as soon as got to be a -1. This actually gave me confidence that this whole thing of counting is actually plausible and possible.

This was getting very draining, but I was flying off adrenaline, betting $100 a hand. I thought if I could turn this table's sittings into $1000 I could do anything!

In no time at all, I was down to just being a head of the house $100. At this point I was sour. I should have left that table right after that hand with the great count, and looked for another one. Or went home.

In fact, I had about 45 minutes left, and I figured I would go to another table and place one bet with this $100 profit.

I drew and 11 with dealer showing 16. I had to double down, so I took $100 out of pocket, I got a 20. Dealer drew to 21!! I ended leaving with $100 less than what I had when I walked in. I learned many lessons with this $100. Don't be at he mercy of the bus schedule. And most important: "KNOW WHEN TO LEAVE THE TABLE" "KNOW WHEN TO LEAVE THE CASINO" (I think Micky Rosa may have said it first, not sure)

I hope you enjoyed this story of my first adventure. It wasn't very profitable, but I did learn a lot. I figure I will go one more time, as one more recon mission before I go all out, and count all of the time.

Trip Two:

"Give me back my $100"

After calling 5 different cab companies, I finally found one in the nick of time to make the Bus. This seams to be the hardest part of my trip. I expected to see the same people on the bus as my last trip, exactly one month ago, but this was a fresh set of ploppies and slot machine junkies, I would have to say the better behaved of the two groups.

After finding the Players Club, I registered for my official "Players Card". Well now they my name, address, social security number, and probably can do a retinal scan. I mainly did this to avoid heat and to pick up some discounts and freebies. But I must say, it's weird now that they call me by name, but I got used the non-sincere politeness.

I walk in with my roll of 500 beans, looking for a better start than last month. I went to the same area as I did first last time. Out of the 3 main areas, I think it's the most wide open, and friendly. The lowest min table I could find was $25 min. Well, just like last month, I dropped $200 right away. I wasn't counting, but it didn't matter. I just wanted to warm up, and I figured I could play basic strategy for at least one shoe, stay on or about even, then start counting. But it didn't matter. After about 30 minutes, and about 12 hands, I was starting off in this sour hole again.

With 5 hours to go, and $300 left, I was determined to find a $15 table. After asking around, I did in fact find out where the lowest minimal tables are located.

I buy $100 worth of chips at this fine $15 table. The count never got really good, it took me about an hour to loose my $100, so I bought another $100. At this point, only have $200 left of my roll. I have $100 in chips on the table, and my last $100 in my pocket.

I was holding my own staying even with what I had on the table. At this point, I was thinking about "Plan B" If was to go down to my last $100, I was going to go to the Horse Racing room and bet $5 across the board to fill the rest of my day....

Glad I hung in there.... After several positive shoes, a little bit of luck, and oh yea, the dealer paying me on two pushes... I was in my groove. The table went to $25, but the pit boss put a big round chip in front of me marked "15". I was bale to play $15 if I wanted to as long as I stayed at the table. It was worth it's weight in gold.

After 4 hours, I had made my money back, plus a little more. I then stacked $600 worth of chips off of the side slightly, and swore to my self that I was not going to touch it no matter what.

I ended up cashing in $650 worth of chips on my way out. That and the $100 plan B money left, made it a profitable day. Not so much money, but learning that it is key to find a $15 table using a bank roll as low as I do. But most of all, the fact that I left where their money, even if it was $1, the fact that it was their money gave me a moral victory.

Life time stats: Up $150.

Re: Rookies 1st 2 trips
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 28-Apr-2004 06:00:08 (#7813)

Nice trip report Boston. I didn't notice which count you use. I wonder how you knew the dealer had 16? You must have meant 6 showing. Never go back to the table looking to get your $$ back from the last outing. And once you understand what counting is really about you will drop this leave when you are up idea behind you. It is a good feeling, a morale win as you call it, but it is not counter talk. We believe the longer you play the better of you are. And yes, grow a bankroll before you go out again.

Glad you are up $150.

PS We were speaking Mandarin, not Korean ;>

Re: Rookies 1st 2 trips
Posted by Victoria on 28-Apr-2004 10:05:22 (#7816)

Glad to see that you won a bit. Now it may be time for you to get some confidence in counting by raising your bets with the counts and using indices.
One important thing to consider at either a $25 or even a $15 table, combined with bet variations, a $500 trip roll can be wiped out in a matter of minutes. Get a good count, put out some $100-$200 bets with the advantage and loose them and you have a four plus hour wait for the bus. If they have $5 tables at this casino you could survive a bad run and still have money left to play and get a good run later, doing something like a $5-$60 spread. My typical trip roll for a one day Indian Casino trip spreading $25-$250 is $3,000. I have never played an 8 deck shoe (avoid them in Vegas and the local place uses 6) but I believe to have an advantage you must spread more than 12 to 1, which means at max bet you might have 60% of your trip roll out there.

Finally, there is something to be said for a begginning counter, no matter how well bankrolled they might be, starting at low stakes. I know I made plenty of indice mistakes early on. Also the mental things such as confidence in the math, learning to live with a big loss even though you played perfectly, and maintaining your count and play variations while being distracted by things in the casino enviroment. Much better to go through this learning curve at lower bets.

Good luck, keep working and go get them
Victoria

Re: Rookies 1st 2 trips
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 29-Apr-2004 11:51:01 (#7824)

Thanks Victoria and Rob!

All points well taken, and I have been working on them since these 1st two trips over a year ago. I get good resources from this site. I have had 6 trips since, so far so good. And yes Rob I meant 6 showing. Saving up my dough for a trip to Vegas in August, first time there, should be kinda hot I was told...

PS At first I thought all the players were calling the dealer "Monkey" until they swithed dealers and called her Monkey too. (Then I asked what it meant)

Great site Mayor!

Response to Auto-Monkey
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Apr-2004 21:42:27 (#7809)

Auto-Monk writes -

"I use 33 in shoe games and that gets me to 90% of the EV of full index play with lower variance."

My response -

I advocate 50-60+... and they DO count even in shoe games (see THopper report). 33 (+count) numbers is quite sufficient... BUT more indices REDUCE variance NOT increase it. zg

---------------------------

Posted By: Automatic Monkey
Date: 4/1/04 7:55:08 p.m.

In Response To: Be sure the read the Zengrifter Interview (The Mayor)

Read it. Interesting, but please forgive me if I limit the advice I take from persons in prison! Suffice it to say that I would run like hell if I saw him at the table. I've also got to question the accuracy of his statement that it is desirable to play 100+ indexes, even with Hi-Opt II. Well, maybe in SD there are that many comp-dependent that are worth playing. I use 33 in shoe games and that gets me to 90% of the EV of full index play with lower variance. All in all a great interview though, I love the cover tricks! Flipping a coin, and such.

Barfy In The News
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Apr-2004 13:21:19 (#7817)

April 26, 2004
LOS ANGELES TIMES

Authors Share Views With Fans on Final Day of Book Festival Attendance reaches an estimated 130,000 for event that brings readers and writers together.
By Richard Fausset, Times Staff Writer

The self-described Las Vegas card-counter who calls himself Barfarkel was sitting in the shade at the Los Angeles Times Festival of Books on Sunday, munching on a sandwich as he waited for novelist Elmore Leonard to take the stage for a conversation about his craft.

Barfarkel - who for obvious reasons refused to give his real name - said he admired Leonard's work. But he had also come to soak up some of the details of the publishing game, seeing as how his memoir of life at the tables, "You've Got Heat," is due out soon from a little publisher in Alabama.

This last detail was too much for a stranger, who quipped that Barfarkel seemed more like an Elmore Leonard character than an Elmore Leonard fan.

The man took a thoughtful chew of sandwich. "Thank you," he said.

Sunday was the second day of the annual Festival of Books, where - amid balloons and barbecue and rock singers - the real draw was the promise that the barriers between reader and author would temporarily dissolve.

The authors argued, compared notes, signed autographs and talked about their politics and passions. Approximately 60,000 readers came to the UCLA campus to join them, bringing the two-day attendance for the ninth-annual event to an estimated 130,000.

The fair offered household names, up-and-coming niche writers, the gravest of foreign policy matters and the lightest of children's confections. Attendees learned about rotisserie chickens and African American politics. They studied the ways to construct biographies and crime fiction. And they sang along with Barney, the purple dinosaur.

One of the most popular events was the debate on the Iraq war with pundits Mark Danner, Christopher Hitchens, Michael Ignatieff and Robert Scheer. The event filled the 1,800-seat Royce Hall.

Danner, a writer for the New Yorker magazine, argued that the invasion and occupation of Iraq was a flawed endeavor that was "based on a series of dreams" - including a misunderstanding of the complications that would be involved in handing over sovereignty to a new government.

Scheer, who writes a weekly column for The Times, insinuated that the Bush administration lied in justifying the war. Raising the specter of Vietnam, he warned that "once they realize they're being lied to," the American people would cease to support the military effort.

Ignatieff, a professor at Harvard University, said he was in favor of ridding Iraq of Saddam Hussein. But he said he was dismayed that the war's supporters "fiddled with the truth" in making their case to the American people.

All of these positions garnered a healthy share of applause. But the audience's reaction was different for Hitchens, a longtime champion of left-wing causes who broke ranks to support President Bush's war on terror, and, specifically, the invasion of Iraq.

At one point, the room filled with scattered hisses as Hitchens began to speak.

The author seemed to relish taking his detractors on. The serious threat posed by the Hussein regime, he said, is "a test of seriousness for you.... I wish you'd face it a little more stoically." Then he asked audience members if they would have been prepared to suffer an Iraq governed by Hussein's now-deceased son, Qusay.

A discussion about another nation's transition from one-party rule was under way nearby, where experts on Mexico described that country's groundbreaking 2000 election and its implications for residents north of the border. The election that year saw the Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI, lose the Mexican presidency after 71 years of continuous rule. Julia Preston - a New York Times reporter and co-author of the book "Opening Mexico: The Making of a Democracy" - described the difficulty of telling the story of a democratic revolution that lacked a central hero, on the order of Nelson Mandela in South Africa.

Eventually, she said, she and fellow reporter Sam Dillon, also of the New York Times, found their heroes in the dozens of everyday Mexicans who had steadily worked to bring more open elections to a country long dominated by a corrupt system.

Personal politics - and the novelist's tools in mapping them - were the subject of a conversation with Leonard.

The author of "Get Shorty" said his characters must be believable. And they must be good conversationalists.

"If the character can't talk," Leonard said, "then he'll be demoted" in the plot.

Sometimes that demotion can be lethal: the terminally dull, Leonard said, often have a better chance of being killed early on.

Later in the afternoon, radio talk show host Laura Schlessinger delivered a feisty talk loosely based on her new book, "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands." Some fans waited over an hour in the heat to get a good seat.

With her trademark bluntness, Schlessinger said she found many wives didn't realize "how insensitive and hurtful" they were being to their husbands. The conversation also drifted to some of Schlessinger's other themes, including her concern that American mothers are chasing money and careers at the expense of a rewarding motherhood.

"When we tell people the essence of something as beautiful as child-rearing or marriage are one of a zillion options and they're all equivalent ... I think that's a travesty," she said.

Authors and booksellers also seemed to relish seeing their readers in the flesh. Bob Holzapfel, 57, of the Tennessee-based Book Publishing Co., was busy selling books like "Becoming Vegan" and "Wheat Grass: Nature's Finest Medicine," at the tent he shared with another publisher.

"We usually deal with distributors and stores," he said. "We hardly ever get a chance to hang out with the people who buy the books."

A few hours later, author Glen David Gold was signing copies of his well-received novel "Carter Beats the Devil" at the Hi De Ho Comics tent. Gold said he wrote four really bad novels before he found success with "Carter," and he said he always promised himself he'd try not to act like "a jerk" when he became an attraction at book fairs.

A few minutes later, he had a chance to keep his word when a woman mistook him for fellow novelist Michael Chabon.

Gold sweet-talked his way out of an awkward situation. The woman ended up buying his book and asking him to sign it.

end

Re: Barfy In The News
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Apr-2004 17:57:01 (#7821)

Very cool for Barfy.

I hope he sells a lot of books...

Re: Barfy In The News
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Apr-2004 08:29:23 (#7822)

Love the title! Waytago Barfarkel!

Atlantic City minimums
Posted by Dschddny on 29-Apr-2004 10:00:39 (#7823)

What kind of minimums can I expect on a Monday 9am-4pm? Do you think I'll be able to find any $5 mins, and if so, which casinos would be more likely to have them? I'm still pretty new at counting, so I'd much rather have a spread of $5-$20 than $10-$25. I'm going with a bankroll of $400 (maybe not enough!)

Thanks!

Re: Atlantic City minimums
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Apr-2004 13:11:09 (#7827)

>What kind of minimums can I expect on a Monday 9am-4pm? Do you think I'll be able to find any $5 mins, and if so, which casinos would be more likely to have them? I'm still pretty new at counting, so I'd much rather have a spread of $5-$20 than $10-$25. I'm going with a bankroll of $400 (maybe not enough!)

You're kidding yourself if you think you will gain an advantage in AC with a $10-$25 spread or a $5-$20 spread. There is absolutely no way you will be able to get the edge over the house in AC with a $400 bankroll.

Just have fun, get some casino experience, and don't worry about it.

Then start saving money for a real bankroll, where you can spread enough to turn the game to your advantage.

--Mayor

Re: Atlantic City minimums
Posted by Dschddny on 29-Apr-2004 14:01:29 (#7829)

What would you say would be a reasonable bankroll and spread to have a chance at an advantage in A.C.? (At least reasonably close to my ballpark) Assume that I am wonging in and out quite frequently.

Thanks.

Mayor is correct AC is a waste. *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 29-Apr-2004 16:53:45 (#7834)

Re: Atlantic City minimums
Posted by Imaya on 04-May-2004 14:58:18 (#7925)

Well I really don't agree here. Most of the posts here talk about huge bankroll but let me tell you something. I go arount 25-30 time a year to the casinos always with a $5-$100 spread. I always change 200$ at the beginning and let say that 75% of the time, I don't need to change more money for 8-10 hours at the tables. My limits are once I'm over 1k, I'm gone and it simply work the best for me. No needs to be greedy.

Re: Atlantic City minimums
Posted by BlackJackHack on 30-Apr-2004 01:51:56 (#7846)

The Mayor is right. That spread will get you only a microscopic edge. Of course, your $400 bankroll is probably barely even large enough to spread $5 to $20 (a more statistically inclined person could tell you exactly what your risk of ruin would be). If you have bigger bankroll, and more confidence in your game, you can easily spread $5 to $100 in AC.

$5 games are rare in AC. The only place that will certainly have $5 games off-peak is the Wild West casino (all 8 deck) - adjacent to the main Bally's casino. If it is really dead, you might find $5 games in some of the other casinos - I've seen them at Borgata (in the low limit pit in front of the noodle restaurant) in really slow times. Borgata is all 6 deck.

On weekday mornings, you should be able to find $10 games just about everywhere.

The women treat you differently
Posted by John on 29-Apr-2004 15:34:01 (#7832)

when you are green chipping. So do the dealers !!

Just made the jump from red to green.

I'm single so I take notice. Most of the guys I was playing with were old enough to be my father. I didn't see any other 27 yr old players in the high limit area.

Re: The women treat you differently
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 29-Apr-2004 17:59:55 (#7836)

No kidding, Sherlock. I incorporate them into my act. Nothing like a drunk chick at the table to hobnob with to make you look like a dummy. Just one thing- I know we are supposed to talk like ploppies, but when playing with a female never ask her about her "flow".

I disagree...
Posted by suicyco maniac on 29-Apr-2004 19:14:57 (#7837)

It seems to make no difference if I have 2,000 riding on a hand or 10 the ladies still treat me the same....SM

Re: I disagree...
Posted by revereman on 30-Apr-2004 10:19:56 (#7853)

Boy, you must be really ugly. (just kidding)

I've never really seen much difference myself but stands to reason that women (being the smart species they are) would be hanging out at the black or green tables rather than the red tables if they are looking for companionship. Of course, if they find someone at the red table after a good streak, they may be allowed to supersize their meal.

When I've played at the Tropicana in AC, "The Judge" was always surrounded by beautiful women. He sure threw the money around and I'm guessing they weren't there because he was good looking.
When playing at Mandalay Bay, I was befriended by an over the hill what I would presume to be hooker.

I guess I'm not good looking either.

I never said....
Posted by suicyco maniac on 01-May-2004 23:41:02 (#7887)

They treated me bad :-) SM

Re: The women treat you differently
Posted by BlackJackHack on 30-Apr-2004 01:45:33 (#7845)

Stuff $2000 into your wallet in a strip casino at 4am and the "professional" ladies will find you very quickly.

Re: hookers
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 30-Apr-2004 12:07:49 (#7854)

Normally the 'stutes keep away from me. When they have approached me, I just tell them I'm a gigolo, but tonight is my night off and I'm not taking any customers right now. However I can give her a professional discount tomorrow night if she is still interested. Keeps them guessing.

Re: hookers
Posted by wong out on 01-May-2004 08:08:33 (#7867)

I've had more than my fair share of run ins with working ladies in Vegas. I think its an occupational hazard of working late, alone and carrying cash. You may find a few stories interesting:

-I get approached in a premium strip casino about 3am by a teenage hooker; she grabs my wrist and studies my watch (its a $40 peugot but looks spiffy) and asks me what it is. So I tell her its a Peugot and worth about 15K but I will give it to her for 1 hour of her time and 500 bucks. She thinks hard and comes back with lets just settle for the 1 hour and forget the 500. I pass.

-Another time while enjoying my favorite beverage at the Island Bar in Mandalay (place is swamped with hookers) a 30ish hooker sits down next to me and starts in with the rap (how long you here; who you here with, would you like to fulfill your wildest fantasies). Anyhow so I tell her I am here to play cards; having a drink and dont want to fulfill any fantasies but start to shoot the shit with her. Before you know it I am getting the whole life story (jailed bf in cuba; past drug problems, kids with parents in NM; getting raped by the nuns as a young girl etc.) Anyhow after abit I say hey maybe I would like to fulfill my fantasties in Vegas, how much?? She replies, "I couldnt go with you now it would be too personal"! I figure that I am one of the few to strike out with a Vegas hooker. For the record I wouldnt have gone anywhere with her anyhow.

-Finally I get an emergency page from work and call the office from a phone booth at Bally's about 7am. I get hooked into a big conference call (spent about an hour at the damn phone booth). Midway through the call this lady gets slammed into the booth next to me by security and cuffed; a real ruckus follows and it turns out that she was getting busted for prostitution. She starts waling and it was getting pretty loud and I was having a tough time covering the phone. Finally someone asks me if everything is ok out there.

good luck

wong out

Thanks for Sharing
Posted by SammyBoy on 03-May-2004 14:04:02 (#7898)

Made me smile.

Re: hookers
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-May-2004 19:02:22 (#7901)

That's good to know, where the hookers are in LV. I do not patronize prostitutes, but perhaps I could work them into my act. Like pay one to sit down and fool around with me at the table. I can pretend my big bets are just showing off for her.

Now if I went with her, would that be a case of trading in EV for VD?

Other differences
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 30-Apr-2004 08:55:10 (#7850)

All your jokes are funnier.

You dance better.

Your singing voice is vastly improved.

If you start playing black -- you will instantly become much more handsome.

But......................
Posted by Victoria on 30-Apr-2004 12:34:35 (#7856)

When the lady at the table is spreading $25-$250, why does it seem that so many guys start playing multiple green or black even though their bankroll and playing ability can not handle it. Am I impressed? Actually I greatly appreciate it.
As long as you guys have this need to strut, it is easier for me to just be a smaller player at the table and attract less pit heat.

Victoria

True, unless you're losing *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 01-May-2004 08:28:11 (#7868)

Women treat you differently when.....
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-May-2004 07:31:42 (#7894)

you pay no attention to them.

I agree 100% with Rob *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 03-May-2004 19:17:06 (#7902)

Re: The women treat you differently
Posted by Learnng to count on 04-May-2004 07:08:52 (#7906)

On one of those early morning cab rides from downtown to the P. station the cabby asks the guys and I if we need a hooker. I tell him "not me maybee the other's may want to partake". The cabby pushes the issue and hands us a portfolio of prospective ladies. I eye one who is a BIG girl around 300 lbs. I advised the cabby that one lady of that stature approached me earlier that morning. She flirted with me and started small talk. When the time came for negotiation she leaned over and kissed my cheak and whispered one thousand dollars. I was shocked. I asked myself how the hell she could charge so much. She explained that she not only performed above expectation but she gave you the whole love treatment. I asked her how she could charge so much when a thinner version was half the price. She gratiously explained, "Honey those skinny girls charge five dollars a pound. I'm a bargain at $3.33 a pound!"

Re: The women treat you differently
Posted by Ryguy on 06-May-2004 01:53:13 (#7953)

300 pounder!!??!! Damn.

If a trey came up and started sweet talking me it had better be for my lunch money!!!!

Transporting your bankroll
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 29-Apr-2004 22:05:18 (#7839)

OK now I have a positive problem. I'm going to the casino with between $5K and $10K and the cash is starting to present a security problem. Part of the problem is I'm pretty good with my fists, and if robbed that amount of money might tempt me to do something stupid and I might lose more than my bankroll. I don't want to get involved with markers and check cashing privileges at casinos because that involves giving them my Social Security number and all kinds of scrutiny.

What would work well is an ATM card that allows me to withdraw a few thousand at a time. Does anyone know of such a bank? Or any other way to efficiently transfer sums like this. Thanks.

Ever tried... *LINK*
Posted by Cyrano on 29-Apr-2004 22:44:30 (#7841)

Traveller's cheques or prepaid visa cards?

Here's a hidden bankroll pouch *LINK*
Posted by Al Rogers on 30-Apr-2004 00:26:08 (#7842)

This may be what you're looking for.

Re: Transporting your bankroll
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 30-Apr-2004 01:30:07 (#7843)

You may want to buy one of the jewlers pouches Mr. Wong is selling on bj21. I am approaching higher-level play myself and I plan to buy one very soon.

I have always carried a fake wallet in Las Vegas. I used to keep scraps of paper in it instead of money(sometimes with 'creative' messages written on them), but now I keep a $20 bill and a few ones in it to passify any potential perp.

-Felix

Re: Transporting your bankroll
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-May-2004 11:35:57 (#7871)

Thanks for the info all. Looks like I will be carrying cash one way or another. I could do travelers checks or credit cards but these involve a vig that will hurt my EV. Maybe something that goes up the leg of my pants to hide it.

Re: Transporting your bankroll
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 01-May-2004 12:30:49 (#7874)

The Jewlers pouch fits inside your pants.

Re: Transporting your bankroll
Posted by BlackJackHack on 30-Apr-2004 01:43:08 (#7844)

My brokerage firm has an Amex gold card linked to my account with which I can withdraw large amounts of cash straight from the account. I suspect that other brokerage firms (who would want to keep >$10k in a bank account bearing 1% interest?) offer similar cards.

Additionally, it is useful to have a local bank account in the area you gamble - both for purposes of withdrawals (you can wire money there in advance of your trips) and deposits - you can deposit at least some of your winnings instead of traveling with tons of cash.

Re: Transporting your bankroll
Posted by ZOD on 30-Apr-2004 07:24:20 (#7848)

You might try Eagle Creek travel products for carrying large ($10-$20K) sums. Also, it's a good idea not to carry your cash all in one bundle. Two years ago, I was relieved of my wallet and its $300, but my $4000 or so tucked away in a money pouch survived the scare. It's a dangerous world out there.

Best...

ZOD

Re: Transporting your bankroll *LINK*
Posted by MrPill on 01-May-2004 09:19:09 (#7869)

Here is a link to the Eagle Creek product that I purchased several years ago.

Pill

How I Do It
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 30-Apr-2004 08:52:56 (#7849)

I went to a Luggage/Travel shop and bought a money belt. The zipper is plastic, with velcro tabs, etc. so no metal to set off detectors when going thru airports.

Session bankroll is in front pocket with rubber band to deter pick pockets.

Wallet in back pocket has nothing of any real importance in it. ID and a few spare bucks is usually in my front shirt pocket.

Some places I deposit money at the cage and use markers.

I never use hotel room safes, use the safe behind the front desk (making sure Manager knows I know that he knows that I know).

Awareness and Prevention is 99% of the battle, hopefully you can avoid the other 1%.

NETeller *NM*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-May-2004 07:30:38 (#7893)

Which counting system?
Posted by Newbie on 30-Apr-2004 03:55:20 (#7847)

hi, i'm a newbie who's ready to take up CC. the only book i have read is Wong's Profession Blackjack and thus the only system i know is the hi-lo...

now my question is that which system should i take up? according to www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm , K-O is superior(than hi-lo) in all aspects (BC, PE, IC) and it's even easier to use!!! i'm willing to work on any system even the level 2 or 3 system. it's just that i would like to pick one and stick with it. I'd like to know which one is better in your opinions...

maybe i should also provide my playing conditions...i usually have access to mediocre 6D, liberal rules (indian casino)...from time to time i would go up to reno and have access to great SD game with good rules...

i've been following the message board for about a month and learn a lot. i'm sure you guys have answered lots of similar questions and i would like to thank you all for bearing with me!

Newbie

Check out QFIT's.........
Posted by phantom007 on 30-Apr-2004 15:30:06 (#7857)

Blackjack Strategy Analyzer. With same, you can enter/indicate you various skills and abilities, such as math skills, ability to keep a side-count, etc., and BJSA will calculate the CC'ing System best for YOU. And it is free...well not totally...you have to look at some ads for CV software, which you eventually should get as well.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with HiLo, or with the KO that you mentioned. Both are in common use, so easy to get data and peer input from others. In Wong's PBJ, he states something to the effect of "most any counting system that accurately tracks big vs. little" will get you the $.

Certainly, other systems may grind out higher win rates, but ONLY if played perfectly, or nearly so. Level I's are very forgiving if you miss a card or two.

I personally use AOII for SD and DD, and often same without Ace-side count for 6D, or if lazy, will flip to a simple Level I (Revere Systematic aka Silver Fox) when playing shoes.

However, many of the "Big $ Pro's" are HiLo players.

Hope this helps some. Feel free to post more questions.

phantom007

lv 1 for 6-8D and lv 2-3 for 1-2D?
Posted by Newbie on 30-Apr-2004 22:52:22 (#7859)

thanks.

after studying a bit it seems to me like hi-lo or k-o is better for shoe games while lv2 or lv3 is better for 1-2D. is this true?

Re: lv 1 for 6-8D and lv 2-3 for 1-2D?
Posted by Inskipp on 01-May-2004 01:28:00 (#7863)

I suggest Red7 instead of KO. KO does better only in S17 good penetration, and that is rare today. Also R7 provides a more cover because of its releative rarity.

Red 7 Count
Posted by MrPill on 01-May-2004 09:56:52 (#7870)

Inskipp Wrote: "Also R7 provides a more cover because of its releative rarity."

How does this provide more cover?

I have used Red 7 for quite a few years as a advanced casual player and have found it to be very easy to use (and profitable) in the 6 & 8 deck shoes.

You do loose something in the single deck games though due to the fact that it approximates a TC. This has more of an effect in SD (as opposed to multideck games) which are much more sensitive to count based play changes.

If you can find a copy of Blackbelt in Blackjack (out of print) by Arnold Snyder, this count is in there.

Good Luck,
Pill

Re: Red 7 Count
Posted by Inskipp on 01-May-2004 17:55:55 (#7885)

Counts do not produce identical decision at every point. If casino counting and watching you, they use hilo or KO, and so sometimes they think you made a mistake because of slight differences in systems.

Edition III on its Way *NM*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-May-2004 07:29:42 (#7892)

Re: Edition III on its Way
Posted by MrPill on 04-May-2004 09:20:43 (#7908)

Hey Rob,

Edition 3 of Blackbelt in Blackjack by Arnold Snyder?

I had heard rumors but have not actually seen anything on this. Where did you see this?

Thanks,
Pill

Re: Edition III on its Way *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 04-May-2004 09:30:46 (#7909)

Here it is. Click link at bottom of picture to check it out.

For SD only......
Posted by phantom007 on 01-May-2004 11:55:39 (#7873)

wherein Play deviations are as or more important then Betting, a multilevel with a high PE/PC is likely best....for 4+ decks, wherein counts rarely reach zones where one makes major play changes, then BE/BC is MOST important, so a level I is just fine.

For DD only, I also prefer a Multilevel, since definately in deeply dealt games, and often in "standard" games, play changes seem to occur frequently...but this is just my preference....the "math" would indicate that DD should be played more like 6D.

phantom007.

Re: Which counting system?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-May-2004 03:26:06 (#7864)

If you are willing to learn a sidecount and some powerful indexes, consider Hi-Opt II with the Ace sidecount. No matter what you decide to go with, all counts can benefit from an Ace sidecount, even if you only use it for insurance adjustment.

Another very powerful one for shoe games is Wong Halves.

Re: Which counting system?
Posted by Newbie on 01-May-2004 16:03:17 (#7881)

thanks for all the responses

where can i find a good reference to ace side count? i imagine that ace sidecount should work with all systems although indices for play decision would probably change

thanks

Re: Which counting system?
Posted by John on 04-May-2004 19:19:07 (#7930)

In my opinion, if you are new to counting, you should stick with a count that is ace reckoned. Concentrate first on playing with no errors and wonging in and out at the proper times. In my opinion, the gains from those two things will be much larger than including an ace side count.

LVC Heat
Posted by phantom007 on 30-Apr-2004 09:48:20 (#7852)

During recent LV trip, got the AGBBJ (Any Game But BJ) at the LVC.

Last year, I stayed at LVC for several days, and 6:1 spread their SD games for several multi-hour marathon sessions, and received no heat and little scrutiny, albeit with mostly red action. Food comps in their cafe were easy, though getting free cigarettes was PC-dependent...one PC told me I needed 4 hours of green action...another said "no problem" after about 1 hour of red play. I did not even ask about room comps after the cigarette experience.

This trip, I was going to stay there, but they were full one of the nights I needed, thus made alternate arrangements. After touring the LL, GS, and EC, I decided it was time to hit the LVC. I entered with a full stomach and a full pack of smokes, and had no need/want for any comps. SO WHY DID I GIVE THEM MY PLAYER's CARD??? Well, I guess it was to "build up" points for a future trip...STUPID!

Time:

0:00---Entered casino, found all $10. SD to be full or nearly so. Found empty $25. table. Bought chips and started playing (and winning) with 3:1 spread. No major rocket science here....start with $50. bet...decrease to $25. in neg. cts., leave it there in pos. cts., and bump it to $75. at +6. If I got caught with the big bet out and the dealer unexpectedly shuffled (i.e., unexpectedly stuffed current deck into the shuffling machine and pulled out another), I just left it there.

0:20---Oriental lady buys in...spreads $25-300., using some yet to be published anti-Thorp system...big bets in neg. cts. and little bets in pos. cts., splits 2's vs. 10, and does not DD 11 vs. 6! Loses big, buys more chips, and starts winning! This is going to be great cover...I am the little fish in the pond.

0:45---Oriental lady invents new game...kind of like BJ + 3-card poker...except hers was "BJ + SLOTS". If she lost a hand that she thought she should have won, she would simply abandon the table (and her envious stacks of green and black), and go over to feed a nearby bank of slots. If it was not for the "no mid-shoe" rule, I would have suspected her to be "anti-Wonging"....waiting for TC's to be appropriately NEG. before returning to the game. PC seemed nervous about her unattended chips, and gave them lots of attention. GREAT!

1:10---Had doubled my buy-in. Oriental lady exits table with a nice net win (do not know now she did on slots, though she was not carrying a "coin bucket").
Suspect the pen. was too deep for her system.

1:15---Noticed PC from a distance watching me, well actually, HE WAS WATCHING THE CARDS! He was counting right along with me, or so it seemed. The proper play, of course, LEAVE! Or go to the bathroom, and see if he is still interested when you get back. Or make a few stupid plays/bets....could have used the Anti-Thorp count system I had just learned, or hell, could have played "BJ + SLOTS". My play, of course, just keep on playing. He probably cannot count that good. And who cares about a 3:1 spread, right?

1:20---WRONG! Any game but BJ!

Oh well. Experience.

phantom007.

Re: LVC Heat
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 30-Apr-2004 12:18:56 (#7855)

Wow, any-game-butted for 1:3. If you are using HO2 you are barely in positive EV with no spread, so you can flat bet or maybe bet 1 to 2 hands when a PC is counting with you. Unlikely any PC uses anything but High-Low so an advanced count will throw them off, just a little.

I've only been to LVC once a few years ago. Funny story: I'm in the men's room, sitting on the stool discharging my duty, and somebody comes in and starts smashing the door of the stall. I curse him and tell him to get out of here before I call the cops. Turns out it was the cops. They were after somebody who was hiding in the stall next to mine. They apologized, then broke down his door and dragged him out of the bathroom. What a city.

Re: LVC Heat
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Apr-2004 23:47:20 (#7860)

I have been booted from LVC several times. I don't know what it will be like under new ownership, though. They may forget the backoff in a few months.

A few years back I witnessed a counter freely spreading $25-$500 on their single deck without heat. Hats off to the pros!

--Mayor

I've played there without problems after previous backoff
Posted by LVBear584 on 01-May-2004 04:07:32 (#7866)

Short sessions recommended, as usual.

Re: I've played there without problems after previous backoff
Posted by LVC security on 01-May-2004 15:28:26 (#7879)

Okay Ms bear we know who you are! Your the lucky cute blonde with the big eyes! We only let you play because its good for business! A good looking lady such as your self attracts more suckers! So for now "MS BEAR" you can play!!!!!

Re: LVC Heat
Posted by BlackJackHack on 01-May-2004 00:56:46 (#7861)

I don't know what the heat is like at the red level there, but you cannot spread 1:6 at green there for longer than 15 minutes without having your own personal PC staring straight at your eyes for the remainder of your (short) visit.

BTW, try not to use the anachronistic "Oriental" - to many Asians, it is quite comparable to calling a black person a "negro"

OK...."Asian"....I stand Politically Corrected *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 01-May-2004 11:47:42 (#7872)

Re: Namaste... Asia is a big place *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-May-2004 13:25:49 (#7875)

PEOPLE are Asian, RUGS are Oriental :) *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 01-May-2004 16:49:44 (#7882)

No!
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 02-May-2004 03:35:34 (#7888)

When referring to the descendents of the mongoloid genealogy, 'Oriental' seems more accurate. Russians are Asian too because they live on the Asian continent.

I think when someone normally refers to an 'Asian' they are refering to a yellow-skined person with slanted eyes. To me this is a bit racicist to an Asian of Russian descent. The most accurate and respectful term for a Mongoloid is 'Oriental'.

-Felix

Re: No!
Posted by BlackJackHack on 02-May-2004 14:22:16 (#7890)

If you need to be more specific, you can say "East Asian" when referring to Japan/China/Korea or "South Asian" when referring to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh. If you insist on using the term "Oriental," you will offend some people, and come across as old-fashioned and/or stupid to everybody else. Frankly, I don't find the terms "oriental" and "negro" racist, just hopelessly outdated.

A "Usage Note" following the term "oriental" in the American Heritage Dictionary (see http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=oriental):

Usage Note: Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Orientalmeaning "eastern"is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.

Lessons
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-May-2004 07:26:22 (#7891)

You people have got to get out to the city sometime. With enough exposure, you'll be able to dif between Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean, Tiawanese, and possibly between Indian and Pakistani. If in doubt, just call her a lady and leave it at that. And if one of us white folks doesn't get your country right, take it easy. To us, it really doesn't matter where you are from, you're ALL PLOPPIES unless you count! smile

One Love, One Count
Let's get together and feel alrite

Bob McMarley

Negro/Oriental vs. Counter/Cheater
Posted by djm on 04-Jun-2004 18:33:12 (#8574)

If African-Americans are so offended by the word "Negro", then howcome the term is still used by the United Negro College Fund? Also, several rap songs and black-oriented films used the much-more offensive term "N*gger", and yet I hear very little objection to that (as long as a "white" person doesn't use the term) from African-American leaders.
Don't forget that to most ill-informed casino patrons, the term "Card Counter" is synonymous with "Cheater".

Re: LVC Heat
Posted by Hal Jordan on 01-May-2004 01:01:26 (#7862)

Interesting story. I have heard several players complain of heat here, but fortunately I never seem to have a problem. Both them and the Horseshoe (pre-Harrah's) always have treated my wallet well. Give them a shot again in a few months.

For a good laugh
Posted by John on 30-Apr-2004 16:40:33 (#7858)

In between wonging, walk up to the roulette table and don't watch the wheel or the electronic board, watch the players faces and see which ones are actually looking at the board. I had to restrain myself because I almost burst out laughing. I saw an Asian guy looking up at which numbers and colors had already come up as if it meant something.

Blackjack Hack glad your back
Posted by Ken Count on 01-May-2004 03:48:15 (#7865)

Hey Bro,

Glad to see you are back. I have a question for you.Were
you in A.C. this past weekend? I ran into another counter
at my table, we talked briefly and he said he was from
VA. That is as far as the conversation went and then
afterwards, I thought that it would have been funny if
that was you. By the way, last three trips to A.C. have
been very good.Hope all is well for you to

Re: Blackjack Hack glad your back
Posted by BlackJackHack on 01-May-2004 17:40:13 (#7883)

Thanks, Ken.

No, I wasn't in AC. With a 2-month old baby, it's hard to get out of the house. I am hoping, however, to get there sometime in the next few weeks. In the meantime, I'll just have to live vicariously through others who post on the board...

Invited to a counter trap?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-May-2004 13:36:47 (#7876)

There's a big store that I've relieved of about $4K in the past two months, all using a player card. Now this week I've gotten an invite to a BJ tournament in June, big prizes, free buy-in, one day only.

Reading this flyer, I get a funny feeling. The way it's written, in an amateurish, icky style that seems more a product of a casino security department than the slick flawless output of a casino sales department. This place gives no heat at all. What I'm guessing they are doing is: they have no real anti-counter people in their surveillance department, too cheap and ignorant for that, so they put on this shindig, invite everyone who gives a lot of BJ action and hire a consultant for the day, an anti-counter expert who will evaluate everyone's play and anyone determined to be a counter will be banned by mail. The comps they could erase will more than offset the prize money they will actually pay and the consultant's fee. I do believe they have set a trap for me.

So there are three ways I can think of offhand to play this:

1) Enter the tournament and play a progression, no counting at all. It's a free buy-in, and I'll be rated a progression player rather than a counter and be welcome for a long time.

2) Go to the casino the day of the tournament and play everywhere but the tournament, confident that all eyes will be on the tournament players and off me.

3) Steer clear of the casino when this kind of activity is going on.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

I think you're waaaay too paranoid.
Posted by Tom on 01-May-2004 14:43:22 (#7877)

besides card counting is useless against tournament play. I suggest playing in the tournament and try to win it. Why create your own heat when nothings there?

Re: I think you're waaaay too paranoid.
Posted by Mr.Pill on 01-May-2004 15:33:59 (#7880)

I tend to agree with Tom.

Tournament play is all about betting and luck. With only 30 - 42 hands to be played, counting will not have much if any impact on your end result.

Pill

Play and Count to your hearts content....
Posted by phantom007 on 01-May-2004 17:50:59 (#7884)

I really doubt this is a trap. The average tourney player is not a CC nor a BJ expert. As you likely know, CC is of little value in "short trials", such as a 1-day tourney. Conversely, the ave. tourney WINNER may often be one of the experts, but likely more due to money management skills than just to CC.

Also, in tournaments, you may find yourself having to make some normally stupid plays (DD 17 v. 10) if you are in a "hail mary" situation. Doubt the tourney would be an EASY place to spot a CC.

Good Cards.

phantom007.

Re: I think you're waaaay too paranoid. *LINK*
Posted by Mr.Pill on 01-May-2004 18:13:58 (#7886)

And on that note of the usefulness of CCing in tournament play see what LV Tournament Pro had to say at the BJInsider site. (Link below).

I would agree with the others that tournament play is such a short run thing (30-42 hands) that card counting during one will not gain you anything. It's all about betting and luck!

Pill

Re: Invited to a counter trap?
Posted by Hal Jordan on 01-May-2004 15:07:20 (#7878)

I like option number one. If it will only cost you a bit of time, the reward of longevity would more than compensate. The longer the store is open, the more you can shop.

Re: Invited to a counter trap?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 02-May-2004 08:52:47 (#7889)

I'd like to know what exactly is in the flyer that has you worried so much.

Given your level of worry, use number 1) with perfect $ mngmt for some tourney action and possible cover play.

Re: Invited to a counter trap?
Posted by Sentry on 05-May-2004 18:46:33 (#7945)

Go for it. I don't know if you've ever played a tournament before, but (at least) at the end, there is careful supervision from the pit. Most of this is to assure that the game runs by the rules, and with no dealer fowl-ups. Don't mistake that for heat. Tournament play is so unusual, that I doubt they'd be able to spot a counter unless this is a very elaborate conspiracy.

Looking at it from a risk/reward balance, I'd recommend it. If you feel otherwise when you get there, there is no penalty for early withdrawal. Whatever happens, post your findings if you decide to attend.

Sentry

151 Members?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-May-2004 12:53:24 (#7896)

Mayor, there has to be more constituents then this in your democracy? People can post here without a profile right? I saw one from LVC Security which is not here, so this list has to be a small portion of your "voters."

10Splitter
a BJ win
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ZOD

And whatever happened to Adam n' Subtractum???
Posted by phantom007 on 03-May-2004 15:26:14 (#7899)

Presumably he posted here for what seems like just a month or two. Then saw his name on some posts on the "bjfonline" site. Then dissappeared. Whatever, a few of his posts were expert, IMHO.

phantom007.

Good Question
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-May-2004 17:57:31 (#7900)

We're missing a lot of great talent if you come to think of it. Probably lost interest or got busy with other things. Wish'em all well and a happy return one day possibly.

The wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'

Robby Mac

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