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Retiring: Counting Books for Sale
Posted by CougIt on 03-May-2004 13:03:49 (#7897)
I have the following available:
"Burning the Tables in Las Vegas" 2nd edition. Ian Anderson
"Professional Blackjack" Stanford Wong
"Blackjack Secrets" Stanford Wong
"Blackjack for Blood" Bryce Carlson
"Blackjack Attack" 2nd edition. Don Schlesinger
"Blackjack Wisdom" 'Bishop' Arnold Snyder
"Comp City" Max Rubin
I can accept PayPal or Money Order.
Please e-mail me at: bulldogfetters@hotmail.com
if interested.
I've Been There
Posted by SammyBoy on 03-May-2004 22:18:02 (#7905)
Except I gave away all of my books. I regretted it because 6 month later I had a change of heart and bought many of the same books again. You're smart to sell them, but I'll bet you'll be back. Best of luck to you.
Re: I've Been There
Posted by CougIt on 04-May-2004 16:48:34 (#7928)
Thanks for the good wishes.
Sold all but Wong's "Casino Tournament Strategy". If anyone's interested...
bulldogfetters@hotmail.com
New Counter
Posted by Ryguy on 03-May-2004 20:38:08 (#7903)
Hi everyone,
Thanks to everyone who posts on this board. I have read countless helpful tips, advice, personal experience etc that are invaluable to me.
I started counting about a year ago by reading WGBB. I practiced and read and practiced and read. I played at home on my comp keeping track of my wins and losses.
I learned HO-1 for 6-Deck play as this is the game that is local to me (Canada). However, I quickly learned that in order to have any hope of beating that game I have to wong in to + counts and wong out low counts. Also, I found the spread a bit of a problem. Since I was just beginning to implement my skills in real casino play, I was hesitant to bet a 1-12 spread @ a $5 min. Simply put - I felt way over my head....
So I hit the books some more and came across this site and other similar sites and did some more homework. I dropped the HO-1 (without Ace side count) and picked up learning Hi-Lo. I found this far easier to use and as a result, I was able to quickly begin learing some indexes. I started to find success playing at home enough to try the casino again.
[text deleted by management]
I've had moderate success playing that game. Still working on my game but appreciate the help and advice from everyone here!
On a side note:
I was down in Vegas last week and I could not believe the amount of 6:5 SD I saw down there. My first trip to Vegas and I spent near zero hours playing on the strip. It's too bad for sure but I know I was wise to avoid that game all together. I was very unimpressed with the quality of games in Vegas. I played some single deck Downtown but I found the shuffle always came just as the count was getting good. I can only remember one time where I was able to get my max bet out during a good count. :( Generally the tables were full and they dealt out two hands from the SD. The first hand would have to be +3 or +4 in order for me to get a decent bet out.
Cheers,
RyGuy
Re: New Counter
Posted by V-man on 03-May-2004 21:25:46 (#7904)
Hey, RyGuy
Glad you join the club.
My situation is similar to yours, except that I'm here in the eastern Canada. There is no good game here for me to play, it's all 8 decks and cut 2.5-3. You can only win with excessive wonging and spread 1-40 (would require a huge bankroll though). Like you, I've also been in Vegas, and I found mostly CSM and 6:5, the good game exist but with minimum like $100. If you are playing red, downtown is definitely your hangout.
I also started out with HOI but quickly abandoned it and pickup HiLo really fast. I have also tried KO and found that it's a lot easier to use KO in 2 decks games. As far as counting practice is concerned, converting from HiLo to KO is like a breeze.
I will be visiting Vancouver in the summer. Any decent BJ game in Van?
Re: New Counter
Posted by Ryguy on 05-May-2004 02:11:47 (#7934)
V-Man: Here in Vancouver there are only 2 types of games available.
1. 4 Deck CSM - DA2, DAS, LSR. This is available at all Great Canadian Casinos.
2. 6 Deck shoe - DA2, DAS, LSR. This is available in New Westminster Riverboat and Royal Towers. Also at the Radisson in Burnaby.
$5 tables are nearly always packed.....
Re: New Counter
Posted by revereman on 04-May-2004 08:31:12 (#7907)
I've always played 6-8 deck shoes so I can't give you much advice on single and double deck. However, the posts here seem to indicate that SD and DD ganes have deteriorated in most places. My advice is to go the shoe route. Less heat (although it does exist, depending on the location). You still have to shop around for good pen too. Overall, the game of BJ has deteriorated so you have missed the golden years of BJ. I'm afraid its still going downhill from here. Counters are a very small minority of players and casinos have no reason to cater to us. Players are playing CSMs and 6:5 games, so there is no reason for casinos to make available a better game. Some sophisticated players tell us shuffle tracking is the way to go. Although I haven't tried it, I think it is pretty difficult and the opportunities aren't plentiful. Some people say you have to travel all over the world to find good opportunities but that is just not practical for most of us and, besides, they won't tell us where the good games are. Unless you are super serious, learn to count well so you'll have a slight advantage, have fun, take advantage of comps, and bet with your head, not over it. Good luck.
Are you the same RyGuy????
Posted by phantom007 on 05-May-2004 02:36:48 (#7936)
Who worked in Missouri a month or two ago?
Who we called, and you loved, the title, of "Little Adolph"?
If yes, phantom007 says "hi"!
If no, then sorry....welcome to CC.com!
Zieg Heil!
phantom007.
Re: Are you the same RyGuy????
Posted by Ryguy on 06-May-2004 01:49:13 (#7952)
Nope.... not me! I'm RyGuy from Vancouver, B.C.
Lady Luck, C.O.C.K. University, and Misc. LL Funnies...
Posted by phantom007 on 04-May-2004 09:34:58 (#7910)
I spent the first 3 days of recent LV trip downtown. Chose to stay at LL, since my usual downtown haunt could not fit me in, and because LL seems consistently to get the best S.C.O.R.E. ratings, and LL is a short walk (or run if you are being chased) to most other DT stores.
Always gives me a "warm fuzzy" when the taxi driver at the airport says "LL! Wow, I have not taken anyone there in years."
Check-in was a breeze. Check-out took a long time because the Cashier's cage is located right next to the hotel registration desk, and yes, phantom007, feared interstate (MS, MO, and NV) BJ player, STOOD IN LINE AT THE CASHIER'S CAGE, dragging luggage, for about 10 min. Finally realized that I was the only one in line with luggage, and WITHOUT buckets of quarters! Back to check-in, I thought it was kind of cheesy to have a casino employee greet you, then inquire if you were married AND if you spouse was with you....if the answer was "yes" to both, you were herded to a special area for gifts and I suspect, sometype of timeshare pitch. Since my answers were "only legally" and "no", I did not get herded.
Room was clean and basic....hell, for $25. a night, I did not expect a mint on the pillow. TV remote did not have a "menu" button, so you could not watch movies. Did miss the little in-room coffee pot. On my gambling trips, I always like to sit there and have a few cups of coffee, and plan my day.
-----morning...play BJ and drink coffee.
-----lunch.....buffet or cafe comp.
-----afternoon...play BJ and drink coffee.
-----evening...play BJ and drink beer.
-----night.....get steakhouse comp, then drink more beer, and play more BJ.
Kind of the same every trip. Why I need to plan it, I do not know. Lunch decision is always hard....buffet or cafe, buffet or cafe?
Coupon book was weird. First, it was not a book, but rather a sheet of paper. It had perforations so that one had about 10 tear-out coupons on the sheet.
AND TWO OF MINE WERE ALREADY TORN OUT! Am naturally paranoid, but this really set me off. Felt better when I realized that the entire stack of coupon sheets had the same 2 removed....possibly a misprint or something (such as BJ pays 1000:1).
Some of the coupons were useless, at least to me. Free hat (don't wear). Also could not use the 2:1 Buffet coupon....let's see, I am here by myself. Go to the "all you can eat" buffet, and get 2 of them. Hmmm. Also a coupon to get a beer plus hotdog for 99 cents....did not use it since the beer was already "free", but did keep it in reserve in case I was denied a meal comp later.
Did use the $5. matchplay coupon, and lost. They also had a "BJ pays $7 for a $5 Bet" coupon.....this one took me a while, probably because I did not have in-room coffee....finally figured it out. BJ pays $7.50 for $5 bet...let's see...if I use this coupon on DD, I will lose 50 cents! So I used it on SF21.
Big sign on a closed BJ table advertising their daily BJ, Roulette, and Craps class: "College of Casino Knowledge"....C.O.C.K. Told PC they should print up diplomas and t-shirts...."Graduate of C.O.C.K-'04" and the like.
Oriental/Asian/Non-Caucasian/Non-Negro dealer was having trouble with the cut cards...apparently LL has just went from using one to using 2...she did not know
what to do with the 2nd cut card. PC came over and said "Here, you take one and cut the 2 decks in half, then take the other and cut in half again".
Great! 75% pen. Except she kept doing it wrong, and giving about 60%.
Overall, they offered a decent DD game. Weekdays, only 2 tables open...expanded on the weekend. Did like their SF21. Unlike many stores, if you start out with 2 hands, then you can go back and forth from one-two at will. Dealer got nervous with my $5x1 to $50x2 spread, and every time I did it, kept glancing at PC as if to get him to intervene. PC did not seem to care.
PROBABLY BECAUSE I DROPPED $1,500. PLAYING THIS WAY!
I think I am starting to grasp the concept of VARIANCE.
phantom007.
Re: Lady Luck,you also got burned because it 9 bucks a night *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 04-May-2004 09:39:17 (#7911)
Re: Lady Luck, C.O.C.K. University, and Misc. LL Funnies...
Posted by MrPill on 04-May-2004 09:50:05 (#7912)
Phantom,
Did they do away with thier SD?
This was the only place I got any heat from in January. Of course unlike your bad run I was winning and was up 30 units on the SD. Kept the session to around 1 hour.
Pill
No SD......
Posted by phantom007 on 04-May-2004 11:22:32 (#7915)
Did not see any SD tables, except for SF21. On a weeknight, they had open one FULL $10. DD and one empty $25. DD, plus $5. SF21. By the weekend, day shift had several (4-5) $10. DD, and were not very busy. Weekend nights were busy.
Heat never a problem, but for a change, I was keeping to 1-2 hour sessions, and except for SF21, was using a "Republican" spread.
phantom007.
Re: Good to see...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-May-2004 21:16:59 (#7948)
... that you are using an honest, hard-working, and courageous spread!
One-eyed Monster count
Posted by Dschddny on 04-May-2004 09:50:41 (#7913)
Funny thing happened to me at the table yesterday. Towards the end of the day, I got a monster count, by far the highest count of the day. So, clearly there was no way I was going to leave the table until I rode the count for all I could. As I was reaching for my chips to place my max bet, one of my contact lenses suddenly dried up, crinkled, and lodged itself painfully in the corner of my eye! My eye turned red, I grimaced and blinked several hundred times, and the dealer looked at me like I was deranged! But there was no way I was leaving with the count so high. I managed to suffer through the pain until the end of the shoe, and won 3 hands with my max bet. Then I ran to the bathroom to fix the lens!
Re: One-eyed Monster count
Posted by MrPill on 04-May-2004 11:57:12 (#7918)
A funny thing happen to me at the end of my day yesterday also.
I was playing a 6D with 4 other players at the table and the count was rising. The 4 players got up and left all at once leaving me all alone with a 10+ Red7 count with about 15 hands to go.
I played my max to mid bet for those remaining hands and grabed 3 snappers and one correct insurance call. Ended up swinging back about 35 units and made the day a winner after a terrible morning.
I love this game!
Pill
Re: One-eyed Monster count
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 04-May-2004 13:44:20 (#7923)
Count me in as an owner of a one-eyed monster!
Re: One-eyed Monster count
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-May-2004 07:31:30 (#7937)
Hahahahahaha!! I can picture you there staring with one eye. Reminds me of the first time I got whalin drunk. Had to crawl home on my hands and knees with one eye open because when I used two I couldn't see str8. I made it to the front lawn and my sister found me and I asked her not to tell anyone, but Dad came out and scooped me up and put me in my bedroom.........right beside the trash can that doubles as a great barf bucket.
Saw a dealer with a similar problem.
Posted by ygambler on 05-May-2004 14:44:54 (#7941)
I had a somewhat similar experience where the dealer had the contact problem. His contact kept floating off in his eye while he was dealing. Every 3-5 hands he misdealt (usually putting a card on the wrong hand and I would get the option to pull my bet back after they finished dealing. Then the floor would watch the rack while he fixed his contact. That was a shoe where it was worthwhile to know the ev tables. I was the only one at the table pulling their bets back at the right time.
Don't let ploppy "logic" get into your head
Posted by Dschddny on 04-May-2004 09:54:58 (#7914)
I almost let the "logic" of a ploppy affect my decisions yesterday (probably because I was sick as a dog and not able to use 100% judgment). The ploppy explained to the person next to him that it makes sense to stand when you have a hard-15 vs a dealer Ace. The reason being that once the dealer has checked for blackjack (and doesn't have it), the only cards that could be you would be a 6, 7, 8, or 9. So there are 4 cards which could beat you and 5 cards which wouldn't beat you (since he doesn't have a 10). So he'll take his chances with a 5:4 advantage rather than risk busting. This logic sounded reasonable to me in my weakened state. After further review, I realized that the logic was quite flawed.
Can anyone else explain the flaw in his "logic"? I'm curious what people think.
Re: Don't let ploppy "logic" get into your head
Posted by MrPill on 04-May-2004 11:45:07 (#7916)
There are plenty of combinations of those other 5 card types combined with the ace that would do you in. He was not taking into account that the dealer gets to hit!
Pill
Re: Don't let ploppy "logic" get into your head
Posted by Victoria on 04-May-2004 12:00:41 (#7919)
Not only does the dealer get to hit but it takes two bad cards to bust the dealer and only one decent card to beat you.
Simply put if positions were reversed and you knew the dealer had hard 15 and you have soft 12,13,14,15, or 16, would you not be splitting the aces and doubling on the other combinations?
Re: Don't let ploppy "logic" get into your head
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 04-May-2004 13:47:16 (#7924)
With a sufficiently high count, I'm sure standing is the right move, assuming you are unable to surrender. But a ploppy doesn't know this.
Re: Don't let ploppy "logic" get into your head
Posted by BlackJackHack on 04-May-2004 11:45:19 (#7917)
Generally speaking, it is dangerous to proceed down the slippery slope of examing why basic strategy (or, if you are counting, your indices) dictates a certain play. A computer can play a gazillion hands in an hour, and accurately determine which play will generate the best results over time. Many of the results will seem counterintuitive, but I'll take the computer over intuition anytime. Thus, it should suffice to say that the ploppy was wrong because the computer says he's wrong.
That being said, I suspect that basic strategy demands hitting 15 v A because, even though only 4 cards (6,7,8,9) will make a pat hand, the dealer gets at least two more opportunities to make a hand in the other situations (AA, A2, A3, A4, A5) before s/he can possibly bust.
Would you ever correct a dealer mistake in your favor?
Posted by Dschddny on 04-May-2004 13:01:15 (#7920)
Yesterday the following happened:
The guy next to me got blackjack and the dealer paid him. The guy left his original bet in the circle. Then, when the dealer busted and paid everyone off, he paid the guy again. The guy immediately told the dealer that he had already been paid, and the dealer corrected his mistake.
When the same exact thing happened to me a few hands later, I didn't say a word. I felt a little guilty, but figured it was the "right" thing to do, to try to win as much as I could.
So my question is, would any of you ever correct a dealer mistake in your favor? If most of us saw someone walking ahead of us drop one of their chips, we would probably give it to them rather than pocket it, so why is it different when it's a dealer giving us something we shouldn't be getting?
I usually do.................
Posted by phantom007 on 04-May-2004 16:23:30 (#7926)
especially if the Dealer is being otherwise courteous, helpful, extra pen., etc. I would not want to see someone fired just because I wanted an "extra unit" or two. And definately would not want any "collusion" accusations against myself.
Also, doing same almost always causes "thanks" from the Dealer....I suspect they get Royal Ass-chewings for mistakes that favour the players.
And, of course, it makes you look like an honest ploppy.
phantom007.
Re: Would you ever correct a dealer mistake in your favor?
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-May-2004 16:41:59 (#7927)
Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't it just depends on the situation. If the pitboss is nearby and I think I can get some mileage out of it I will point out the mistake. Other times I will act as though I'm not paying attention and take the money without saying a word. I once had a dealer pay my 17 when he had 18. He realized he made a mistake and under his breath said aw shit, but didn't take the money back. It was a place where dealers keep their tips. I played a few more hands gave him a tip and left pretty quickly. I personally do not believe there is a surveillance person watching every single table/game going on. I would bet that 9 times out of 10 no one ever notices dealer errors.
In this Case, I wouldn't follow you...unless...
Posted by Radar on 04-May-2004 17:23:49 (#7929)
The dealer's an a*hole. If he's decent, I wouldn't try to get mileage because the boss is looking. I wouldn't say anything to draw attention to it. If you do, it probably will cost him some points, maybe even his job. But...if he's not my kind of dealer, I would do the same as you (but for a different reason) and bring it to the boss's attention, as well.
Re: Would you ever correct a dealer mistake in your favor?
Posted by ZOD on 04-May-2004 20:38:25 (#7931)
I usually try to be honest, but greed got the better of me last weekend. The count was high, there was no heat, and the dealer was blazingly fast. With a max bet out, I double my 7,4 against a dealer 8. I catch the dreaded ace and groan. The dealer flips up a ten and then PAYS ME OFF! Before I could blink or stammer out a "whoa nellie", the cards were gone and she was waiting for my bet. The other two players at the table were ready so I just pushed another bet out there. She caught a different mistake a few hands later and remarked that it was lucky her shift was just about over. Not for us!
But even with a 32 unit swing on that hand, I still finished the day 58 units down. Karmic debt, I suppose. Sigh...
Best...
ZOD
Re: Would you ever correct a dealer mistake in your favor?
Posted by wongout on 04-May-2004 21:39:42 (#7933)
I must be the odd-man out on this one but....hell no! I never count mistakes in my favor; actually try to induce them if I spot a dealer weakness. I expect, however, that the dealer correct any mispays in his favor that I dont catch. I am sure that we all miss a few. BTW - I figure over the years dealer mispays have been pretty lucrative.
wong out
I'm with Wongout
Posted by Mr. X on 10-May-2004 23:45:27 (#7979)
I will almost always take the overpay in my favor. Only 2 exceptions in which I won't-
1. If it's obvious I can't get away with it (e.g., once at Ftz in Reno, I bought in for $100, and dealer gave me 4 BLACK chips. No way I could get away with that). Also, if a dealer starts walking to my table with the obvious intent to correct the mistake, I'll beat him to the punch)
2. If, for whatever reason, I think it's not in my own best self-interest to do so.
BTW, you are NOT doing the dealer a favor by pointing out the error. Proper procedure is for the dealer to call a floorperson or boss and point out the error. That is a big demerit, especially in the example where he had just paid a blackjack twice, and he did it again, pointing that out can cause him BIG trouble. Shut up and take the money.
Re: Would you ever correct a dealer mistake in your favor?
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 12-May-2004 10:33:02 (#8017)
Not unless I thought it would make me look bad. While I don't try to induce dealer errors myself, I do actively look for situations where dealer errors are common. i.e. new casinos etc.
Just this weekend the woman sitting next to me corrected the dealer when he was about to pay my push. I had to thank her instead of chewing her out just to save face. Those people are the worst.
So, whatever one's take on correcting dealer errors is, one should never correct positve mistakes against other players. I, myself, am a nice guy. But, I can honestly see getting in some trouble doing this to the wrong person. Because it does make people mad.
Flow Worshippers
Posted by Dschddny on 04-May-2004 13:33:55 (#7922)
I had a much more pleasant blackjack experience yesterday in Atlantic City (compared to my previous trip) not only because I came out ahead, but also because I managed to avoid worshippers of "the flow" throughout most of the day. I tended to end up (by luck only) with more serious, quiet players who kept to themselves than those who love to yap at the table and complain when anyone messes with their sacred flow. This enabled me to jump in and out, vary my number of spots played, and sit out hands whenever I wanted, without the usual complaints. Does anyone else find that most flow worshippers are females between the ages of 25 and 55? This has been my experience. Also, I had a dealer complain to a table of ploppies, concerning my jumping and in and out and messing up the flow!
Re: Flow Worshippers
Posted by wongout on 04-May-2004 21:36:41 (#7932)
Ahh; work the ploppy bs into your act and pretend to be unaware of their concerns. You can have fun watching them get upset. For the record - I have seen as many men as ladies be flow worshippers.
wong out
without those...
Posted by gehrig on 05-May-2004 12:34:00 (#7938)
"flow worshippers"/hunch bettors/"ploppies", you wannabe "advantage" players would be cyphering (jethro bodine) some negative expectancy electronic slot.
those dis-advantage players support the entire game...the house, the corporate shareholders, the pitstiffs, the dealers, and the "skilled" players. instead of dissing them, cheer them on. would all players be at basic strategy level, the game would be modified so as to be unattackable. how about a pit of oddessey slots with the white gloved hands pitching a 21 game instead of video poker hands ? a nice fresh deck each hand, doubling on 10/11, no resplits, et cetera.
if your problem is dealing with ploppy objections to your play, then i suggest that your act is weak. playing this game extends to "working" the pitstiffs, the dealers, other contestants, even the unseen observers to the game.
embrace the flow within your act
Posted by Victoria on 06-May-2004 12:15:45 (#7957)
The count is high, you just lost a hand, now is the time to spread to two or perhaps three hands and Change the Flow for the good of all.
The count is negative, you just lost a hand, now is the time to sit out and Change the Flow for the good of all because as all good ploppies know, blackjack is a team sport and you are changing the flow for the good of the team.
If it did not work, you at least tried your best.
Speak ploppyish if others at the table are flow worshippers.
Still there will be times that good blackjack sense will set you apart and you will get heat from loud ploppies and most times you should just take it but, sometimes you must respond. If the count is high and you really piss them off, you might be left alone with the dealer and a high count. In looking at my own play in these situations, I find that I will sheepishly take ploppy abuse in a neutral count, be upset enough to leave the table in a negative count, and respond with an answer the ploppy does not like in a highly positive count. Just seems to work out that way, strange.
Victoria guilty of forbidden double soft 18 and splitting 9's according to the ploppy BS (not basic strategy) at the local casino.
LVC HEAT
Posted by zengrifter on 05-May-2004 12:38:00 (#7939)
Heat has increased under new mgmt @ LVC. IF you are accustomed to low heat and liberal spread, use MORE cover AND a new player card! zg
Re: LVC HEAT
Posted by BlackJackHack on 05-May-2004 14:12:13 (#7940)
IMO, it's been that way the past two years
Good to see you posting AGAIN!
Posted by phantom007 on 05-May-2004 23:13:30 (#7949)
Thought that maybe you had lost your computer time, for selling TIMESHARES to the Halfway House.
During recent LV trip, I met several people who think you are a "ACE-Hole".
I know you are.
And I respect your I.Q.!
So, ZG, sir, would you please answer the following question?
If playing games wherein BJ is NOT paid 3:2, such as 6:5, SF21, Single21, etc., at what TC is it better to DD BJ?
Thanks,
phantom007.
Re: Good to see you posting AGAIN!
Posted by zengrifter on 11-May-2004 20:02:33 (#8000)
If playing games wherein BJ is NOT paid 3:2, such as 6:5, SF21, Single21, etc., at what TC is it better to DD BJ?
-------------------
foggitaboutit... well it would be very pene/spread-dependent, typically a waste of time... i would play 6/5 SD IF I had 85%+ and could get down a 1-10u spread... the kind of condition i enjoyed in the early days of sf21. zg
KO's the one...
Posted by zengrifter on 05-May-2004 15:38:49 (#7943)
...book and system that I now recommend to ALL newbies and neophytes. I have discovered that many newbies have a problem with red7 (bifurcating the 7s).
beyond the KO-PREF, I derived from the book's appendix a set of 15 or so additional 1&2D 'composite' indices (total 35 or so #s).
why should any newbie bother with TC and anything else? zg
Re: KO's the one...
Posted by hinoon on 05-May-2004 19:00:13 (#7946)
ZG
This is an interesting post. When I first found this hobby (lifestyle, habit, career, call it what you will), my impression was that the hi-lo count was the most efficient and accurate count there was. It seems to be the backbone for all "serious" or "pro" counts.
In my reading I only later discovered the "unbalanced" count. It seems like while you'd have an easier time from the start...it would be just as hard to later switch to a balanced count as it wouldbe to learn it from the get go...old habits die hard and such.
You have often been a champion for accuracy, encouraging index knowledge that some have called overkill. So I would have guessed that you would shy away from the unbalanced counts.
Do you advocate learning an unbalanced count...building proficiency and then switching once you reach a certain level? I made a commitment to hone my hi-lo skills before I started toying with other counts, and I'm intent on doing so. But I certainly would like to know your reasoning behind the preference.
I'm glad to see you posting again. Your volume and content was missed and I know that there are a lot of us who are waiting to see what you choose to share with us.
Cheers,
-HiNoon
Re: KO's the one...
Posted by Inskipp on 06-May-2004 01:11:43 (#7950)
In unbalanced counts, if you adjust your starting count to the number of decks, you need only memorize one set of index numbers.
Re: KO's the one...
Posted by zengrifter on 11-May-2004 19:55:51 (#7998)
thats not exactly 'true' (pun intended) zg
Re: Yes
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-May-2004 21:14:23 (#7947)
KO is a winner, probably a better choice than High-Low if you're playing shoe. But my understanding of unbalanced counts (I've never used one) is that the playing indexes are very dependent on number of decks. Now although I play mostly shoe, I play about an equal amount of 6D and 8D.
I'd been playing East Coast shoe with High-Low for a few months with excellent results, then I found myself playing SD and DD in Reno one weekend and I was in a different world. My High-Low knowledge was barely transferable and althbough I had a profitable trip I had to fight too hard. This is the kind of situation I'd be afraid of getting into with KO. So I took up HO2+A as a system that will be very powerful in any kind of game. Well worth it.
My thoughts on KO
Posted by Radar on 09-May-2004 00:40:14 (#7971)
"KO is a winner, probably a better choice than High-Low if you're playing shoe."
That depends, in my opinion. I have started AP play on 1 January this year and have only learned KO from the gitgo. I like the ease of not having to convert to a true count (I'm lazy), as converting seems to me to take you away from concentrating on the running count and indexes.
Anyway, with shoe games, I would think that Hi-Lo would be easier. With KO, you start with a -20 count for a six decker and -28 for an 8 deck game. Can you imagine how long into the shoe you have to go to get an advantage? Unless you Wong, I say, forget it. For that very reason, alone, I play only Double Deck games.
I was going to switch to Hi-Lo after I felt proficient with KO, but it seems the Pros have a high regard for the KnockOut system, so I guess I will stay with it...
btw...I AM ahead, so far, this year with my advantage play...
Re: My thoughts on KO
Posted by CanKen on 09-May-2004 19:45:10 (#7978)
I use KO, and most of my play is 8 decks. It's certainly true that with 8 decks "opportunity arises slowly"; it takes patience and wonging in certainly helps when it's possible - wonging out is nearly always possible, and necessary for 8 decks.
But I don't understand why you say that Hi-Lo would show an advantage sooner than KO. Surely any count would indicate an advantage at about the same time.
Please correct me if I'm missing something.
One good thing that happens sometimes with 8 decks is that the count may rise fast early in the shoe and then stay at an advantage level to the end, which gives a lot of bigger bet opportunities.
CK
Re: My thoughts on KO
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-May-2004 02:22:02 (#7980)
I agree, it will take about as long with any level 1 count to get to a good count. The only way to get there faster is to use a level 2 or 3 count.
Re: My thoughts on KO
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-May-2004 07:48:36 (#7982)
"One good thing that happens sometimes with 8 decks is that the count may rise fast early in the shoe and then stay at an advantage level to the end, which gives a lot of bigger bet opportunities."
You are right. This is one advantage of multi deck games. You play into a low rich deck with a min bet out, then you HOPE the A and 10 are not behind the cut card. Without tracking you will often be playing your big bets into luke warm areas of the deck which can inversely effect your expectation as you play into a 0TC area. In the long run you will be ahead, no question, but by knowing more about what is happening today right in front of you, you can increase your long range advantage proportionally to your accuracy.
Re: My thoughts... "VR" means:
Posted by zengrifter on 11-May-2004 20:05:09 (#8001)
..."Vintage Robo!" zg
Re: My thoughts on KO
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-May-2004 07:29:56 (#7981)
That too is my main problem with unbalanced count systems for newbies. There is a remedy for counting backwards from -20 to 0 by changing your numbers by 20 and starting at 0 instead of -20. dito red 7.
Re: My thoughts on KO
Posted by CanKen on 11-May-2004 09:42:27 (#7983)
Good advice. Since I started I've used IRC(initial running count)=0.
But I've often thought I should have used IRC=10 which would almost completely eliminate negative counts, especially if you use exit points equivalent to TC of -1 at each deck level.
But right now I don't feel like making the change and relearning index numbers.
Re: My thoughts on KO
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-May-2004 12:53:11 (#7987)
I know what you are saying. The count I use is a very good one and I'd hate to get into something more or less difficult right now.
Counting "forward" with Negative Numbers
Posted by MrPill on 11-May-2004 10:54:58 (#7984)
Of course you would have to have a different IRC depending on the number of decks you play otherwise your pivot and index numbers would all change for each change in the number of decks your are playing against.
As someone that uses the Red 7, I found it pretty easy to learn counting with negative numbers. I remember counting forward and backwards while driving, starting at say -20 going to 20. It is just a matter of practice and it should come easy to anyone. And I can brush up on this while driving the hour it takes me to get to the casino.
Another thing that helped was to instead of using the word "minus" in your count, which has two syllables, find something that has one syllable and train yourself that is means minus. I mentally us the sound "Dee". It actually helped me to count down a deck much faster (~25 sec).
Good Luck All,
Pill
Re: Counting in your head
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-May-2004 12:20:00 (#7985)
I use a sidecount so I have two axes to keep track of as well as a level 2 count but it's not so hard.
First of all, like a few others I reverse the polarity of a count, because it's easier for me to remember that high cards bring a count up and low cards bring it down. So for me, a negative count is beneficial. As I count, I say "even (for RC=0), down 2, down 3, down 1 (when I see a +2 card), up 1 (when I see another one)" Aces are letters, so after I see an ace I say "Up 3 A, up 2 A, up 2 B, even A, down 1 A, down 1 B (for the next aces)" and so on. In between rounds I create a mental picture of the count, paste "-11F" on my mental viewscreen then I can talk, talk about numbers, do whatever I want without losing track.
Perfect
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-May-2004 12:55:35 (#7988)
You have gone beyond the mechanics of what you are doing. It's the difference between looking and seeing. Impressed!
Rob
Re: Counting "forward" with Negative Numbers
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-May-2004 12:51:33 (#7986)
I really think that people that can grasp the concept of counting and can do it properly will have no trouble learning KO, HiLo, Zen, etc As you have done yourself, you have learned what works for you and made it your own. Zg was posting KO for newbies, and that does not include many of us here. I find newbies will get board of these "counting for dummies" counts, like KO and the speed count and will want to take on something with more teeth. Actually, if I was to post a message for newbies, I would tell them to learn basic strategy and play online ONLY for maximum BR return. But since this is a candle making class, no need to talk about halogen lighting. ;>
Thomas Edison
Re: My thoughts on KO
Posted by Markus on 25-May-2004 06:30:23 (#8302)
It is easy to adjust KO. I start with a count of +4 (add 24 to -20), so I know that with +21 (easy to rememebr, isn't it?) I have the advantage. Then I normally count every time positive counts. Of course all strategy numbers have to adjust, too.
I find it very easy.
Markus
Re: Yes 1-2D /6-8D
Posted by zengrifter on 11-May-2004 19:58:36 (#7999)
1-2D indices are close enough for one set, as are 6-8D... further composite amalgam for any #Decks can be achieved for the +counts. zg
Page 93 of Ken Uston on Blackjack
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-May-2004 08:55:32 (#7955)
Previously, you were quoting the same things that Uston did on page 93 of this book. Uston basically said the Ace side count was unnecessary, that his U+/- (Plus Minus) count was superior to his UAPC. Zen was the way to go, or you could go for the "stronger and simpler" Uston SS count. Then he goes on to say that he continued to brush up on the Revere 14 APC with 140 indices in any event. He said as you often do the Ace side count is a waste of energy. Still I see it as a "do as I say not as I do" from Ken. I agree that a simple count is good for the new players that come along, but I also feel that once you have a count down that performs better in the B and P and I areas it makes little sense to drop it for something simpler. I think you are still using Zen with plenty of indices, play longer faster, etc to get your edge. Right now I am not really interested in counting because it is not necessary online. IT only takes me an hour to brush up, and I often see trackable games when I do get out that once again don't really require a count. But when and if the day comes when I do return to counting I see no reason to stop using Hi Opt II. If I do decide to count the Aces with the 10's, I would use Zen or my Zen III.
now that is a big VR! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 11-May-2004 22:22:00 (#8005)
Still Red7 for me!
Posted by MrPill on 07-May-2004 11:03:34 (#7962)
Guess I'm just a good bifurcator!
Pill
Re: Ever try Red 7-9?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-May-2004 11:31:05 (#7963)
This is a fun one- play High-Low, but count the red 7's as +1 and the red 9's as -1. It's a slight improvement. Even better, count the black 7's and 9's, on the off chance somebody upstairs is counting Red 7 along with you.
Interesting!
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 07-May-2004 12:11:54 (#7964)
I'm just thinking out loud here.
I suppose a complete level 2 system is possible using colors. Does this exist? I know red sevens counts only red sevens to effectively value sevens at .5. I guess that would technically make it a level 2 count. Does it count any other values this way or just the sevens?
cards counted as 1 or -1... count all of them.
cards counted as .5 or - .5... count the red ones.
It seems like any level 2 count could be modified to be used this way. And I imagine it would be simpler. I wonder what effect the randomness of colors throuout the shoe would ultimately have. A shoe could be rich/lean in red cards up front, I guess.
Come to think of it a level 4 system would be possible using all suits. Kind of a cool thought, I guess. I wonder what a sim of this would reveal.
-Felix
Re: Interesting!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-May-2004 13:59:14 (#7965)
The uneven distribution of colors is a slight problem. I believe Red 7 is intended only for shoe. So if at the end of the shoe there are six 7's left and they all happen to be red or black (not that unlikely, will happen about 3% of the time) your BC is hurting. Much safer I think to just use an outright level 2 count.
While you're messing with colors, why not suits for a level 4 count? Count all the 9's other than clubs as -1, etc. Sounds like a fun exercise but I'm not going to be doing that on the felt any time soon!
Re: Interesting!
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 07-May-2004 14:31:06 (#7966)
>>Sounds like a fun exercise but I'm not going to be doing that on the felt any time soon!
As I think about it, this may not be horribly difficult. One would always be adding and subtracting 1. I gave 'Halves' a go a while back and abandoned it because it was too taxing adding those fractions. I would have made too many mistakes to warrant the switch. But this I think I could do. Here one adds or subtracts 1 based on a visual cue. Once it was learned it would be simple.
Some Interesting math would be taking place though. The values where all suits are counted as -1 or +1 will be more accurate then those where only one suit is counted. So, any existing level 4 count might not translate well. It would need to be simmed, of course. I wonder if there is any software out there that would handle this kind of simulation? I doubt it. Maybe once I'm done with the other 4 million things on my to-do pile I will write something.
So do I have the makin's here for a proprietary system? I can just envision the infomercial now:
Re: Interesting! LSD
Posted by zengrifter on 11-May-2004 20:09:52 (#8003)
Come to think of it a level 4 system would be possible using all suits. Kind of a cool thought, I guess. I wonder what a sim of this would reveal.
-------------------
Vintage Zg
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-May-2004 06:49:28 (#8010)
Vintage as in somethings never change, they just get better (?) with age.
Akwesasne Playing Conditions needed
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-May-2004 16:18:12 (#7944)
Anybody play in Hogansburg NY recently? I'm contemplating a trip, need games available, rules, pen, heat, buffet, booze info. Can't find anything on the net. Thanks.
Re: Akwesasne Playing Conditions needed
Posted by Ryguy on 06-May-2004 01:37:30 (#7951)
Straight out of CBJN for April 04....
Akwesasne Hogan
16 Tables, 1.7 Pen, 6 Deck, 5-500 min, S17, DASn = .41 H.A.
Re:Wow thanks!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-May-2004 11:27:52 (#7956)
I've never heard of CBJN, but that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! I'm going to subscribe.
Re:Wow thanks!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 07-May-2004 09:50:48 (#7960)
That is what I remember at this place. 6 deck with good pene, and I was able to spread from $5 can to $75 us without getting the "checks played" called out. Not sure if they still have ca/us tables with both currencies being accepted. I know they have can only and us only tables, or used to. And the upper NY scenery was nice. As nice as it is on our side up here. You usually picture NY as something other than countryside, but upper NY state is beautiful.
So you got your info without CJBN, and I don't want any of your money....smile. Have fun and give us a write up.
Rob
Re: Akwesasne Playing Conditions needed
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-May-2004 08:23:41 (#7954)
A little on the old side, but here is a link to my review of the "Hoggie"
http://members.rogers.com/blackjackprofessional/akwesasne.htm
PS There was a recent "troll" that says he works there and said that I was way off on my take of this place. It is possible that things have changed. There was a lot of dealer table talk back then about poor management. Maybe he was a manager? smile IMO, it's the best game on both side of Lake Ontario, but not worth the 6 hr drive there and back for me. I think I have already told the story about what can be done in 12 hours that makes the trip unnecessary.
Give us a shout back after you've done the place over.
Connecticut vs Atlantic City
Posted by Dschddny on 07-May-2004 08:14:10 (#7958)
How do the conditions at CT casinos compare to those at AC? Are they more winnable, or about the same? And, how is the heat in CT for a low-level player like myself ($5-$30)?
Are there other options within driving distance of NYC besides these?
Thanks!
Re: Connecticut vs Atlantic City
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 07-May-2004 09:06:27 (#7959)
I found little to no heat at Foxwoods last time I was there. Spreading 1-10 on a $10 table.(8deck, S17,DOA,3:2) But a $10 table is hard to find. This was a weekday morning. The tables go to $25 as soon as it's gets busy. and get very crowded, but there are alot of people waiting to play, so I find that it makes back counting easy, just hard to wong in when the count gets good. Dealers/Pit Critters are friendly for the most part. Nice Steakhouse there too.
Re: Connecticut vs Atlantic City
Posted by wongout on 08-May-2004 08:30:19 (#7969)
The winner is.......Neither! Both games suck! The CT games are the lesser of the two evils due to the ls. The pen at both places on the main floor hovers at 1.5-2.0/8 so why waste your time?? Hop on a plane and go to MS or Vegas.
The steakhouse at the woods is ok not great IMO. It doesnt compare to anything you will eat in Vegas.
good luck
wong out
Re: Connecticut vs Atlantic City
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-May-2004 04:24:59 (#7974)
I wouldn't say the CT games suck. There are a few better shoe games, sure. The 8D game at Turning Stone has consistent 1 deck or less pen.
But is Vegas really better? LV pen is on the average better, but you can shop for pen at Mohegan and find 6/1 on any given night. The big difference is the heat; I spread green 1:12 and red 1:30 in CT without a trace of heat. Eight hours at a time. Those outfits are so big and so profitable they couldn't care less what a green or red player spreads.
Now I live in CT and can go whenever I want so there would have to be something way, way better to justify my going to LV just to play. A counter who lives in NJ can probably figure out a way to beat AC too; it just doesn't make sense to go there unless you are local.
Re: Connecticut vs Atlantic City
Posted by wongout on 09-May-2004 08:44:12 (#7975)
Youre somewhat right in that you can sometimes find decent pen. There are three main problems with CT:
-1st not enough dealers give decent pen; so you getinto a game and your dealer goes on break and you are stuck for the next 20 mins or so; in Vegas you can usually change tables and keep on chugging;
=2nd the crowds are tough in Ct;
-the third; in vegas you can change casinos at will; in ct you dont have much to choose from so you better limit your play
BTW - my comments are from my perspective of high end play. If you can deal with the crowds then ct may be ok for lower stakes. BTW - there are things you can exploit in AC but its a tough row with traditional counting due to the heat; rules; pen and low tolerance for high action.
good luck
wongout
Re: Connecticut vs Atlantic City
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-May-2004 09:51:20 (#7961)
Hi. You will never find a $5 game in CT. $10 on the weekdays if you are lucky, strictly $25 on the weekends.
I spread $25-$300 in both casinos with no heat. Unlike AC both casinos have LSR which is a very powerful rule for a big spreader.
Mohegan Sun: "Earth Casino" 6 decks, 1-2.5 penetration, very variable. One quirky rule- no split 10 value cards. Pit is very friendly, dealers joke with players about counting, nice atmosphere. Also some full pay 9/6 VP machines ($5) for cover play. CSM's on about half the tables... "Sky Casino" - 8 decks, 1.5-2.5 pen, some tables are 12-spot meaning even at a full table you can still play 2 hands. A few CSM. Same rules and friendliness as above. Comps can be used for gas in the reservation gas station (makes them good as cash).
Foxwoods: huge number of tables, sometimes lower limits than Mohegan. Strictly 8D, 1-1.5 pen, same rules as above (S17, LSR, DOA, DAS) but you can split anything. Pit is AC trained so they are pricks. Comps build up pretty fast but can be used for food & lodging only. No CSM. Cheaters are present and I even saw a cheating counter once.
So if you can get to CT there is no reason at all to go to AC; better rules, better pen.
san diego casinos
Posted by Chuck on 07-May-2004 16:38:43 (#7967)
i am newbie to counting and actually playing with strategy... i live in san diego and know there are several local casinos... to avoid driving to all of them and assessing each game, does anyone have advice on which to check out? thanks...
Re: san diego casinos
Posted by The Mayor on 07-May-2004 20:56:17 (#7968)
You should drive to each and assess them for your particular bankroll.
Fact is, the best game (Barona) may be beyond your bankroll, with usually a min bet of $100.
--Mayor
Sacramento area casino
Posted by Newbie on 08-May-2004 20:28:43 (#7970)
Does anyone know any good games in the sacramento area?
There are none
Posted by The Mayor on 09-May-2004 00:59:57 (#7972)
I have been to all the casinos in that area, none of them are any good. Go down south a way on 99, to Eagle Mountain, that's decent (but at least 3 hours away).
--Mayor
Re: Dude you are 2 hours from Reno *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-May-2004 04:09:47 (#7973)
Reno vs. Cashe Creek
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 09-May-2004 10:01:44 (#7976)
Northwest of Sac is Casche Creek with plenty of shoes, H17, DOA2, DAS, RSA, 70 - 75% pen, easy to wong. It's no better, no worse than Reno 6D rules but better for wonging.
Thunder Valley is all CSM. Mmmmmmmm Goooood!
Good point ... *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 09-May-2004 10:23:20 (#7977)
Need some advice
Posted by NewGuy on 11-May-2004 14:39:08 (#7989)
Hey everyone,I'm very new to carc counting and I wanted some advice. I have been learning Hi-Opt II without the ace side count. Should I stick with it or change to an easier system to start out with? Also, is there a way to find out the indeces without paying $40?
I'm going on a cruise in a few weeks and wondered if anyone had any advice for card counting in cruise casinos.
thanks in advance
Re: Need some advice
Posted by The Mayor on 11-May-2004 16:22:11 (#7990)
>I have been learning Hi-Opt II without the ace side count. Should I stick with it or change to an easier system to start out with?
This is a very powerful system, but not a good starter system. It is stronger on pitch games (1/2 decks) than shoes. Hi-Lo is a great system for shoes, and much easier.
>Also, is there a way to find out the indeces without paying $40?
The best indices are posted already on this site.
But a SIM program to generate your own indices for any system you want to use. Casino Verite is the best program available today.
>I'm going on a cruise in a few weeks and wondered if anyone had any advice for card counting in cruise casinos.
Don't count on a good game. If the game isn't good, don't play it. Bring a lot of cash in case it is a good game.
And Bring a PFD....
Posted by phantom007 on 12-May-2004 07:43:32 (#8013)
i.e., Personal Flotation Device, in case you get barred.
phantom007.
Re: Need some advice... KO!
Posted by zengrifter on 12-May-2004 13:13:15 (#8028)
work smart, not hard - get KO! zg
ko,usually at the bottom of the heap
Posted by eyesfor21 on 12-May-2004 15:29:18 (#8036)
as FAR as count systems go in comparision to so many other
more powerful systems.
There are even better strategies for rookies.
Why the increase in traffic?
Posted by The Mayor on 11-May-2004 16:43:42 (#7991)
Yesterday we had almost 3x the normal number of hits, today we are at 2x.
Anyone have any idea why?
I have a good idea.
Posted by Tom on 11-May-2004 17:43:32 (#7993)
Since the history of MIT team was aired on cable sunday evening and your hits greatly increased the following day,it may very well be the reason.
Now all the ploppies think they can win millions...boy are they in big trouble.
My guess: MIT History Channel show *NM*
Posted by Al Rogers on 11-May-2004 17:49:35 (#7994)
Re: Why the increase in traffic?
Posted by Learning to count on 11-May-2004 19:33:47 (#7995)
Maybe because this is the site to be at! This site has the last of the true vein of hard core card counters who still are willing to climb the casino mountain! Or maybe it was because of the MIT hype! What ever I hope it still is a popular site. Keep on counting!!!
Re: Why the increase in traffic?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-May-2004 07:19:50 (#8011)
Can confirm a lot of sign ups at the Yahoo! Card Counter's Cafe, hits on my home pages, and new members at the Yahoo! Blackjack Professional Newsletter. Another MIT solar flare as suggested? Waves of interest that flow back out like the tide does, but our lighthouses still send out the signal:
"Blackjack Can Be Beaten"
VRMc ;>
Sim software
Posted by Newbie on 11-May-2004 17:35:52 (#7992)
hi all, i'm looking to invest in blackjack softwares primarily to generate indices (for different rules and different counting systems) and to compare counting system. can anyone give me any advice as to which software is better? SBA seems to do the job. what about CVCX? does it generated indicies? or do i have to purchase CVData in order to generate indicies? (i'm not sure if i need CVData...it seems too advanced for my purpose)
Thanks for the help
Re: Sim software SAVEson $$...
Posted by zengrifter on 12-May-2004 13:11:10 (#8027)
SAVE some $$ and buy BJ678 - sims & indices, plus drills, etc. excessive preoccupation with sims is like examining a deck of cards under an electron microscope (little practical application). zg
BJ 678 problems
Posted by Sonny on 12-May-2004 17:04:46 (#8039)
Am I the only one having problems with BJ678? I use HOII, but whenever I run a sim using the ace side count it crashes. Needless to say, it isn't much use to me without the side count. Has anyone else had this problem?
-Sonny-
P.S. - Wazzup Grif?
Wonging in by back-betting other players
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-May-2004 19:46:39 (#7996)
This is a new trick I want to try. The stores where I play are always too crowded to Wong in effectively although I do Wong out/around.
So what I want to do is: watch a full table and look for a player who is playing Basic Strategy properly. Then when the count is right, back bet him.
Advantage: all the advantages of Wonging in. Also, the store I have in mind has LSR and allows a back better to LSR on his own without the seated player getting involved.
Disadvantages: player could suddenly forget his Basic Strategy. And Basic Strategy only, I won't get to play any indexes and they become quite powerful as the count increases. Then there is blackmail, and all the other political situations back betting brings with it.
So what do you think, is it worth it?
Re: Wonging in ...better idea -
Posted by zengrifter on 11-May-2004 22:20:03 (#8004)
So what I want to do is: watch a full table and look for a player who is playing Basic Strategy properly. Then when the count is right, back bet him.
So what do you think, is it worth it?
---------------------------
Better idea - look for a counter and back-bet him! Better yet - look for multiple counters and hop from table to table backing them all! zg
Re: Wonging in ...better idea -
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-May-2004 00:29:53 (#8009)
That's a good idea. Only problem is, most of the counters I've met so far have been awful. Awful! Seems as though the craft attracts some people who think they can, but can't. There's also the security risk of being seen with other counters and being busted as a team. But if I was waiting to Wong into a full table and I saw a guy who was definitely counting using some count that I recognize as such, I'd back him.
Probably the best BS players I've seen overall have been older Korean women and there are a lot of them where I play. One even recognized me as a counter even though she wasn't counting herself. They will often back bet me even though they are seated at the same table and playing. That might be a way to be able to spread to two hands on a crowded table too, just sit next to someone who is amenable to back betting.
Claymore Crossifre
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-May-2004 07:48:35 (#8014)
In a crowded casino as you play in that can end up being your best bet AM. My most recent trips have been with a good friend where we will take up three spots between the two of us and use the spot between us as well as each others spots to bet large, and hopefully trap some tracked Aces as they come up. If you have better conditions you should spread to as many tables/counters as suggested, but I don't think you play in LV where you can go heads up almost any time any where.
As a Player, Back-Betters Bug Me....
Posted by phantom007 on 12-May-2004 08:27:50 (#8015)
Yeah. I know. Just like the ploppies who DD on 12, "it makes no difference in the long run". However, having the extra pressure of someone else's bet behind mine, worried whether they will cough up the proper DD/Split amount, and of course, Insurance, all are just horribly distracting. Also, slows the game to a crawl.
"Sir, I back-bet you because it seemed you knew what you were doing. You should be good enough to know that you NEVER take Insurance." The BJ table is not usually the best place to explain: "TC is +10, and that Ace-up is the last in the deck, and I have also side-counted.....................................
..............................................................................
..............................................................................
........45 Minutes later..................therefore, the ratio of non-10's to 10's is 1.7:1, therefore, Insurance is a Monster Bet!"
And I NEVER like anyone fumbling around MY chips...I get very territorial about these.
Anymore, if someone asks to "Rear-end", I mean Back-bet me, I just say no. Does not mean that ocasionally, I don't mind doing it to others (grin).
phantom007.
Re: As a Player, Back-Betters Bug Me....
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-May-2004 10:05:18 (#8016)
Ha good one! I guess you could say that back-betters BUGGER you!
This place is very nice about back betters and it doesn't effect the seated player at all. If you split and the back better doesn't want to, he can pick one hand to move his bet to or split his back bet between the two hands and he doesn't have to participate in DD or insurance if he doesn't want to. So there is some advantage to this. It allows you to "split for less" on defensive splits such as 8-8 vs. 9,X,A.
Re: As a Player, Back-Betters Bug Me.... *LINK*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-May-2004 11:25:33 (#8019)
Usually when I have someone back betting my hand they are doing so because they know something about my play that others do not. As mentioned this does bring more attention to you if the guy back bets you and no one else. It is pretty easy to shake someone off if you want to by pulling a bonehead move on them. I usually know by looking in the back bettors eyes if he knows what he is dealing with, that he knows exactly why he is backing me. I'll catch up with him later and usually end up keeping in touch after that. You also have to use your feel re the pit. You'll know when they hair on your shoulder stands up that you are getting the evil eye from them.
As a back bettor there can be great opportunity in playing with non BS players. If you can +EV double or +EV split with them you will be laughing. Here's a link to a file that will help you get an idea of the edge you can gain from these plays:
Link Ain't Work'n! *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 12-May-2004 13:16:46 (#8029)
It's an Excel File *NM*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-May-2004 13:33:32 (#8030)
Possibility of blackmail?
Posted by Victoria on 12-May-2004 11:26:29 (#8020)
From what I am reading it seems that your casino considers the unseated or seated player who places a bet on your hand a separate bet. I do not think this is common but am not sure.
At the places where I generally play if one wants to bet on another's hand the chips are combined within the circle.
You then must agree upon splits. You can double and insure for less.
You must keep the money straight between you. I have seen disputes.
The owner of the seat is responsible for the play of the hand which subjects the backbetter to a senerio I witnessed in Vegas two years ago.
A big player was in a mid sized strip property. They had increased limits on all their tables because this guy would take markers on several tables and move around whenever he got the urge. He would place $10,000 bets in three circles on $5 tables. Security was everywhere because he would just get up, leave his chips and sit at another table. He would also bet on others hands. He put 5 grand under my $75 bet once and when I got 2,2 vs 7, he told me to do what I wanted. Luckily we won, but I felt pressure on his bet.
At the same table he put $5,000 under a woman's $25 bet and when they got a blackjack, she told him to pay her $1,000 or she would double down. He was drunk and loud (if you loose like him you can be as drunk and loud as you want) and the pit boss had to tell him that it was her hand and she could play it as she wanted, and please stop calling her those names. The blackmail worked, the $10 better took her grand and left, but my point is that betting upon someone else's hands can subject you to that persons greed.
Personally I do not do it and do not want the bother of someone playing on my circle. Since I talk alot at the table while counting, the extra thoughts of that persons bet are just unwanted. To explain I use my best ploppyish, and tell them that every time someone bets on my hand I seem to loose, it's just bad luck for me.
Re: Possibility of blackmail?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-May-2004 11:42:39 (#8021)
She was playing a very dangerous game. With my "luck," she'd probably pull a ten after I give her the 1000yd stare from 1" away and whisper to her
'go ahead, make my day'
All the Kings horses
Re: Possibility of blackmail?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-May-2004 11:53:22 (#8022)
I agree. Do not make enemies in the casino! You never know who you are dealing with. I wouldn't fear angering a criminal or violent person as much as I would a drunken, corrupt cop.
Victoria: Yes this shop does treat a back bet as separate. One time I had a ploppy playing behind me who was surrendering all stiffs vs. dealer 7-A. So the dealer would take half his bet and I would play the rest of the hand just like normal. Now hit/stand decisions or DD decisions are the seated player's, but the back player never has to come up with more money for doubles or splits. It all just sounds like an advantage play waiting to be played, to me.
Re: Possibility of blackmail?
Posted by zengrifter on 12-May-2004 13:06:46 (#8026)
At the same table he put $5,000 under a woman's $25 bet and when they got a blackjack, she told him to pay her $1,000 or she would double down.
---------------------
Re: Wonging in by back-betting other players
Posted by wong out on 12-May-2004 19:16:53 (#8040)
As a general rule I dont wong in on someone I think is a BS player since too often a player looks good and then all of a sudden he stands with a 16 vs a 7 etc. If I pick up a counter I will wong in to take adv of those high counts. I have no problems with people backlining me; I make it into a festive ploppy event and frankly I would rather they play behind me than to open up a spot and eat cards. too each his own..
wong out
KO Responses (HiNoon)
Posted by zengrifter on 11-May-2004 19:54:29 (#7997)
**my responses -
This is an interesting post. When I first found this hobby (lifestyle, habit, career, call it what you will), my impression was that the hi-lo count was the most efficient and accurate count there was. It seems to be the backbone for all "serious" or "pro" counts.
**not any more, not since the SCOREs.
In my reading I only later discovered the "unbalanced" count. It seems like while you'd have an easier time from the start...it would be just as hard to later switch to a balanced count as it wouldbe to learn it from the get go...old habits die hard and such. Do you advocate learning an unbalanced count...building proficiency and then switching once you reach a certain level? I made a commitment to hone my hi-lo skills before I started toying with other counts, and I'm intent on doing so. But I certainly would like to know your reasoning behind the preference.
**there would be no need to switch counts - one could keep the KO and switch to 'TKO'(true-counted KO). according to Karl Jamacek TKO is slightly stronger than HiLo.
You have often been a champion for accuracy, encouraging index knowledge that some have called overkill. So I would have guessed that you would shy away from the unbalanced counts.
**I have added about 14 addt'l #s to KO preferred, composite fore 1-2D ('KO-zg'?)
I'm glad to see you posting again. Your volume and content was missed and I know that there are a lot of us who are waiting to see what you choose to share with us.
**thank you... its why my interview was posted exclusively at this venue! zg
Re: KO Responses (HiNoon)
Posted by HiNoon on 11-May-2004 22:32:01 (#8006)
Thanks for the reply ZG!
I'm going to stick with Hi-Lo for the time, just because it's what I said I'd do. However, my wife has some interest in taking part, so I'm going to have her pick up KO and see how our experiences compare.
Unlike many here, my brain isn't primed for multiple number streams, otherwise I'd try to learn both. I figure if my wife has KO down and I have Hi-Lo, we'll have solid coverage in terms of playing styles, and cover play.
How do the two counts differ in terms of a player's bet changes? It would be interesting (though I don't know whether it would be useful as data) to start with a fresh 4 deck shoe and graph the suggested unit change for each system as the count fluctuates. Not sure if there's anything out there that does that. Clearly the graphs wouldn't indicate "trends" or "patterns", as every shoe would differ, so much as they might show the potential cover benefit that knowing multiple counts could provide.
Back to the grind.
Re: KO Responses (HiNoon)
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-May-2004 00:15:40 (#8008)
It might work even better for one of you to play a level 1 and the other to play a level 2. You will get somewhat faster swings from good to bad and bad to good counts with level 2 and even very slightly faster with level 3.
BJI Lite
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-May-2004 07:39:53 (#8012)
"its why my interview was posted exclusively at this venue"
and in the upcoming BJI according to Henry T in his BJI Lite??
A great little piece or work by Barfy and should be posted everywhere if not published in a book of interviews with blackjacks greatest players.
Re: BJI Lite **
Posted by zengrifter on 12-May-2004 12:56:50 (#8024)
"its why my interview was posted exclusively at this venue"
...and in the upcoming BJI according to Henry T in his BJI Lite??
------------------------------
** BJI is only running a "BJ-only excerpt" w/links to CC.com for the full no-hold-barred version. zg
--
A great little piece or work by Barfy and should be posted everywhere if not published in a book of interviews with blackjacks greatest players.
------------------------------
** "Robo, this could be the start of a beautiful friendship" zg
Re: BJI Lite
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-May-2004 14:11:09 (#8032)
** BJI is only running a "BJ-only excerpt" w/links to CC.com for the full no-hold-barred version. zg
!!I knew Barfy was working on a BJ only edited version, separating the wheaties from the chaff. Super!
"A great little piece or work by Barfy and should be posted everywhere if not published in a book of interviews with blackjacks greatest players.
** "Robo, this could be the start of a beautiful friendship"
!!That's all any man could ever hope for Griffy. I was picturing something like Munchkins interviews which are rather good. Expecting lots more good stuff from the great Barfmeister.
Somehow, Barfmeister just doesn't look right. ;>
Barfy's latest TR
Posted by zengrifter on 11-May-2004 22:42:25 (#8007)
part 1
http://www.bjinsider.com/newsletter_50_lvpro.shtml
part 2
http://www.bjinsider.com/newsletter_51_lvpro.shtml
Blindman's Bluff....recent Harrah-shoe visit.
Posted by phantom007 on 12-May-2004 11:14:27 (#8018)
Last month, visited Horseshoe in DT LV. As the boards indiciated, things were not good. Most all was 6D. Did find 2 DD, $10 tables, in the back. One was full, but the other had "only" 2 players. 1st base was occupied by an African-American, while an Oriental-American occupied 3rd, so me, an English-German-Cherokee-God knows what-American hit the center field seat.
Both players seemed to be good BS players, and one seemed to be a CC. Both were winning, and soon, both wanted to leave; 1st base was already an hour late to meet friends for dinner....3rd base wanted to go see BELLY-Dancers! Really. I suggested that right next door, there were girls who will dance with Belly, Breasts, Lap, P#ssy, etc., but he was not interested....he actually had a PC helping him get phone # and directions! Probably better EV at the Belly Dancing place.
Got about 1/2 hour of good heads-up action. Pen. was "fair", and I was winning. Chit-chatted with several PC's. ALL lamented about the good old HS. One even said that "Not long ago, you would walk past almost nothing but SD tables from the front of this place to the back"....I tried to act as if this was not important, as I fought back the tears. One told me that he had heard that "Speedway Casino" had already bought the HS from Harrah's, with the intent of eventually moving the HS to the Strip, using the Frontier's property.
????? I am just reporting what he said.
Then an older white-haired gentleman, led by the arm by a similar aged female (presumably his wife), and carrying a white cane, sat down at the table. He announced to the Dealer that he was blind, and that his wife was going to help him play his hands. PC came over and kindly offered to have the Dealer turn his/their cards face-up, so as to help her (AND ME) out.
GREAT I thought! Since I was functionally at 3rd base now, would get lots more info. before making my play decisions!
"Would not even think of it," replied the man, "treat me like anyone else, just that she will have to tell me what I have."
DAMN! Well, it did help a little. He would get his first 2 cards dealt face-down...the Dealer would put them right by his left hand, so they were not hard to find. He would then pick them up and show them to his companion, and she would tell him what he had. Certainly, when she said "you have a total of 5 or 20, etc." then I usually knew what cards he had (soft hands were indicated when she said "you have an ace and a 4" for example....however, "13", for example, was not as helpful....a 7+6 or 10+3....the difference of a plus-3 vs. minus-1 with the count I use. Anyhow they played, lost a little, and left. They were nice folks, and actually enjoyed their company, and admired their FORTITUDE.
I stayed ahead, and cashed in 70 Units profit, + one pack of comp'd smokes.
Off to see the T#tty Dancers! Wide spread hit the Bankroll HARD!
Profit for day......40 UNITS!
phantom007.
Re: Blindman's Bluff....recent Harrah-shoe visit.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-May-2004 12:04:23 (#8023)
A nice read! When you lose do you skip the titties and beer on the way home? ;> Glad I go to play the 'shoe before 'the end' came
of all the elaborate plans, the end
of everything that stands, the end
Re: Blindman's Bluff....recent Harrah-shoe visit.
Posted by phantom007 on 12-May-2004 13:06:25 (#8025)
Answers:
-T#tties...NO.
-Beer......Yes.
-Gas.......5/12/4, Northeast Arkansas, $1.85/gallon...do not know per liter price.
......5/09/4, Southwest Missouri, $1.75/gallon.
......4/20/4, Las Vegas, Nevada, $2.05/gallon.
......Bottled Water, All locations, $18.40/gallon!
Will hit Tunica this weekend...let you know gas prices there if interested.
I have "heard" that Tunica-area (Memphis) T#tty Bars are just as expensive as LV, though some LV stores are FULL SERVICE!....Memphis TB's are....(sorry, I have to do this).......SELF SERVICE!
Usually drink "free" imported beer at the casinos....as much +EV as possible, right? After preparing these #'s, I may switch to Bottled Water!
Probably amenable to a "Team Attack". 5-6 Team members sit down to a hand-shuffled empty 6D table...order and receive each a bottle of water while waiting the 20 min. it always seems to take to shuffle...then leave. Then take the Bottled Water somewhere else and sell it. Could be repeated 2-3x/hour. Could even use your Big Player as a scout, signaling all others to hit a table due for shuffle. Could even leave one player to collect water ordered, while rest go to a different table served by a different waitress, and repeat the process.
Would probably need Inside Help from a Casino employee, such as Bar or Kitchen...will need lots of boxes to carry home your winnings.
Hell, we could probably force Greaser's Palace to shut down their 8D tables in a matter of weeks!
phantom007.
Hahahaha!!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-May-2004 13:36:52 (#8031)
Yur killin me! Clark Cant couponomy at it's funniest.
Re: Blindman's Bluff....recent Harrah-shoe visit.
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-May-2004 14:40:06 (#8033)
Full service Really? How full is full? If you can't get a disease, it isn't fun.
Re: Blindman's Bluff....recent Harrah-shoe visit.
Posted by SammyBoy on 13-May-2004 11:05:39 (#8055)
Did you lose 30 units to the T!tty dancers? Must have been a good time. You had me rolling with the Full/Self service comments.
There is one casino that I freqent that serves bottled water with the cap off and a straw inserted (it's a real pain in the ass). When I asked if I could get it without the straw and with the cap still on I was told no. I later found out they had a problem with people taking the bottled water and reselling it.
Griping dealer
Posted by John on 12-May-2004 15:04:03 (#8034)
Finally ran into one of the worst dealers ever. I usually tip dealers (if I tip at all) when I am leaving the table. So I sit down at this table with this Korean dealer. I am throwing out green chips and losing so she encourages me to bet a red chip. Thinking okay, I'll spread 1 to 60 if you want me to !! I start betting a red chip then switch to the green chip spread that I had planned when the count went to +1 . I knew it was going to cause panic but these days I find it amusing. I start winning big time and am up 28 green units. She thinks that I just won over 1000 dollars and start complaining about me not tipping her. I tipped her then a 2.50 piece. She had that ability to talk for 3 minutes and say something that she could have accomplished in the first sentence. She kept talking and talking. When I finally left still up 28 units, she was telling everyone that I had just won 1000 dollars and didn't tip her. I told her that I didn't even play an hour but tipped her 2.50 but she just kept going on and on. It was almost like a fight.
She was practically yelling when I walked away from the table, and she was acting this way right in front of the pit boss. The woman was hysterical. I guess she wanted a black chip since that is 10% of 1000. I will never tip more than 2.50 at a time. I did tip a $5 piece when I won every hand of the shoe and made 1500 dollars. That woman put me in a bad mood, and I don't usually get in bad moods when I am playing blackjack even if I am losing.
Re: Griping dealer
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 12-May-2004 15:22:26 (#8035)
I occasionally think to tell dealers during a winning streak that I feel bad that I can't tip them, but I just lost a lot of money at another casino/another table. I get the response "That's OK" %100 of the time.
Who knows, maybe I've averted said situation at some point. But there will always be a**holes.
-Felix
how much to they give us when we loose
Posted by eyesfor21 on 12-May-2004 15:32:20 (#8037)
or do they think we win all the time.
When one asks they get 0,when one never asks they occasionally
get a touch.
Re: Griping dealer/ what about the pit
Posted by Victoria on 13-May-2004 11:33:41 (#8059)
In my naive way I would think if this dealer can not stop complaining to all the players either immediately or on a break, the game supervisor should read her the riot act. It is lesson two in how to empty a table of players, make everyone uncomfortable by complaining about them. Lesson one is of course, wipe everyone out (the pit approves of L1 but not L2). A pro in the pit would not let this happen again.
You mentioned that she was Korean. My uncle (also an AP) spent many years living in Korea and I mentioned to him about something I witnessed at the Trop in Vegas a few years ago. A Korean man betting black won over $10,000 from a Korean woman dealer and never toked her till she was relieved. He then tossed high in the air a red chip (tossed with an air of distain my opinion and probably the dealers also) which the dealer saw and turned her back on. The relief dealer did take the chip. A lot of unspoken stuff going on there. My uncle equates it with the way older Korean men feel about women and how Americanized Korean women feel about the old ways.
I tip very modestly but not getting a thank you on my first toke means that I will not toke again. Complaining for tokes guarantees none. I tend to be friendly with dealers, (toking $1 helps me tok a little more often) but I have no problem siting at a table with a dealer that hates my guts as long as they do not deal seconds. They are stuck with me. I can always leave.
dealers....
Posted by suicyco maniac on 13-May-2004 21:06:35 (#8085)
...are just like anyone else....there are a-holes and there are decent people. One of the worst I have heard of was from a friend of mine where the dealer kept saying "I hooked you up now you're supposed to hook me up" everytime the dealer walked by a table my friend was playing out he would repeat the same mantra this went on all day. One of the worst I had was a dealer kept telling me a llllooonnnggg story about how her dad went to Vegas and bought in for 40 bucks and ran it up to 2K and didn't even toke the dealers cuz he didn't know you are supposed to (obviously cuz I wasn't tipping) this story lasted over an hour and even changed to "then he went back to Vegas the next year and bought in for 40 bucks and this time he knew he was supposed to tip and he won even more then he won the first time and the dealer made a grand too...thats how its supposed to work" Lucky for me the dealer was so caught up in her story that she pretty much forgot how to add and I ended up making several hundred in mispayments. SM
Re: dealers....
Posted by deZerTomB on 17-May-2004 22:10:36 (#8161)
I had a dealer whine for a tip in downtown vegas. After I told if I won I would tip but no tip if I lose, he started asking what my shoes and clothes cost. I could not believe it!!! I dress real casual, dockers at the most. When he asked about my car, I said you probably make more money than me. Also the first few times I raised my bet, he was teasing me saying ooohhh you're betting $25 now. Thankfully that didn't last long as I won most of those. But he kept on crying about his lack of money. My responses were to get a better job or try sitting on this side of the table & make a living if you think it's tough from the dealer's side. I would have left right away, but I was getting good counts (double deck). When the count went bad, I didn't need another excuse to leave.
On another trip, downtown again different joint, dealer was telling every player that sat down about a guy there earlier who won every hand that had a dealer bet in front of it and lost every hand that didn't. then made a big deal about every losing hand. "See no dealer bet, you lose".
Where do they get these people?, beggars off the streets of some third world country?
But then some are cool professionals, so what can you do?
Avoid the whiners, that's what.
Re: dealers....
Posted by rocky on 18-May-2004 18:29:31 (#8176)
you guys all amaze me...dealers make minimum wage from the joint and depend on tokes for 80% of their income. A big fat $2.50 toke...you joking or what? I've been on both sides of the felt and NEVER forgot what a tough grind it is for both sides. Downtown dealers? They're lucky if they make $30K a year...only the Golden Nugget has any type of play which gives dealers a chance to make a decent living. How do you define a decent living? Well, living in a nice apartment in a decent area or owing a home or condo(instead of a rent by the week/month apartment motel)...driving a decent set of wheels instead of an 8 year old clunker...being able to set up a 401K or buy mutual funds/stocks instead of living from toke envelope to toke envelope. These dealers aren't asking for green/black action on their tokes...just a $1 toke a couple times every deck/shoe would be enough. Complaining? How would you like to put in 8 tough hours and make $40 in tokes(usual average for most downtown joints) aHave some compassion, people....
Re: dealers....
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-May-2004 21:51:45 (#8177)
When I play felt I always tip, even if it is only 5 whites played for the dealer over the course of an hour or two. I give the waitress a whitey for each coffee, pay far too much in gas to play felt anyways, so a buck or two isn't going to make a difference. If five bucks hurts your bottom line you should not be playing blackjack, simple. Now if the guy is a prick, then he gets dick.
Re: dealers....
Posted by Brillo on 21-May-2004 15:53:58 (#8226)
It really doesn't make much sense to be a cheapskate when you are a counter. A dollar bet for the dealer every now and then should keep most dealers from saying anything.
I could give a shit if someone counts cards, hell, I want the players to win. But if they don't tip, I shift into overdrive, dishing out as many hands as possible, trying to beat them. And I'm not winning, I'll inform shifty on my break that there's a counter on my table. And where I work, they will boot your ass, pronto. And it's too bad, too, since we deal good games.
Re: dealers....
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-May-2004 18:51:10 (#8228)
I feel no matter what position you hold as a job, you should be treated with respect and courtesy, dealer and counter alike. We are not what we do for a living, we are so much more.
Re: dealers....
Posted by Brillo on 21-May-2004 21:15:44 (#8229)
I agree. I'm usually already pissed off on the days I have to deal this stupid game so when I have a counter/stiff on the table I just might be in the mood to be the lapdog of the casino.
However, if the counter makes some bets for me, I become the counter's best friend. I cut the the deck(s) super thin, I forget to call out that you are DDing on 12 or 13, if you want to split face cards and the other players get pissed, I might remind them that they are beholden to a stupid superstition.
Remember, the eye is much of the time only as good as the eyes on the floor, and a good many of the supervisors got their position because everyone could no longer stand to watch them deal.
Most dealers are not out to get you, and if you find one who enjoys taking your money, move to a different table. Again, if you are a counter, it would behoove you to toke a little.
Re: dealers....
Posted by rocky on 25-May-2004 13:34:18 (#8320)
Amen to that last sentiment...most dealers view card counters as no big deal...any pit people with SOME smarts also realize card counters are no big threat unless it's outrageous money movement(barred play or bet restriction will take care of that). I once tracked a player on a single deck game from "upstairs" and this guy was frigging perfect on basic strategy and money movement with the count but he still ended up $3,000 down...still an element of luck. This topic was about COMPENSATION for services performed on behalf of you the player...maybe I was in LV for too long...I toke my Al Phillips attendent on pickup and always drop a $ for EVERY cup of coffee/soda/bottled water. I'm not debating the merits vs. card counters or even about shithead dealers(of which the town is full of)...I'm just trying to remind you all that people need to make a living...that's all folks!!!!
Cellini
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 25-May-2004 14:01:29 (#8323)
has a different view re the eye in the sky, because he is/was one, just as you are a dealer, and I enjoy learning from you, how you feel about these things. The Mayor is giving you the worse case scenario based on the math of simply counting. You flip me a hole card, "miss" something I have done, or even give me a tell and we are then working with an edge only found offline nowadays. We both do not want the real game to become extinct. When that happens, the walls of the temple have been breached, and with a wimper, not a bang, all the lights go out. All of these BJ boards will become as exciting as fossil collecting.
Re: Cellini
Posted by rocky on 27-May-2004 16:54:19 (#8403)
rob...my respects to Cellini and all the great info he posts but in my time "upstairs" unless we had been forwarned there's NO WAY the eye is going to pick up on all the subtle "tells" a dealer can give off. Unles Mr. C is has a frigging crystal ball then he's blowing smoke and pounding sand. I've had the unique experience of busting five dealers in my career for cheating and after testifying...having them do jail time. Now, if a dealer sends a little wince, wide eyed look or a squint of disapproval...how is anyone to know? If the "george" is on third base and the dealer does a side load of the hole card...how does anyone except the floor pick up on that? In another post I mentioned how some BJ dealers could be true artist...hey UNR proved years ago that a chimp could deal BJ outta shoes...but a DD where it's hand shuffled and the dealer can cut three-quarters deep? Get the dealer on your side and you'll have improved your chances of winning by 15-20%. Yeah, I know BJ is a game of mathemmatics but it's dealt by people to people.
Re: Cellini
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 27-May-2004 20:28:38 (#8410)
I agree with you. The trick to it is not to get too greedy, and once again, don't stay for more than an hour or so. The better the % the more cover, the less time it takes to make it worth your while.
grift-KO(1-2D)
Posted by zengrifter on 12-May-2004 15:44:50 (#8038)
Here are my approximated/composite-type 1-2D RC indices for KO:
(feel free to recommend improvements)
INS=+3
12 /2=+4, 3=+4, 4=IRC, 5=IRC, 6=IRC
13 /2=IRC, 3=IRC
15 /9=+9, 10=+4, A=+8
16 /9=+6, 10=KC, A=+7
8 /3=+8, 4=+6, 5=+4, 6=+4
9 /2=+4, 7=+4
10 /10=+4, A=+4
11 /10=IRC, A=KC
A6 /2=KC
A7 /2=KC
A8 /4=+4, 5=KC, 6=KC
A9 /5=+4, 6=+4
XX /5=+4, 6=+4
SUR:
88 /9=+2, 10=+2, A=+2
16 /8=+5, 9=0, 10=IRC, A=IRC
15 /8=+7, 9=+4, 10=0, A=+3
14 /10=+4, A=+5
New feature, "Blackjack IQ test"
Posted by The Mayor on 12-May-2004 20:06:31 (#8041)
I created this today ... it may be modified as feedback comes in.
What is your Blackjack IQ?
http://www.cardcounter.com/BJ_IQ/BJIQ.html
Re: New feature, "Blackjack IQ test"
Posted by BradRod on 12-May-2004 22:46:35 (#8042)
is 132 good ??
Re: New feature, "Blackjack IQ test"
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 12-May-2004 23:23:10 (#8043)
A Big <H3>Whoo Hoo!</H3>
Felix scores 180
That must be good.
I knew Peter Griffin could not have invented 'Wong Halves' because he is a cartoon character on "Family Guy".
-Felix
What do you think?
Posted by The Mayor on 13-May-2004 08:55:12 (#8047)
I would expect most of the regulars here to get a very good score. The max score is 200. The minimum score is 0.
I am hoping that those who visit this site who don't know much about BJ will get scores below 100, so the test has to be broad enough to encompass all of us. I want people to get a real estimate that may have some value to them. (Does IQ ever have value?).
If you think any question is particularly weak, and want to make a suggestion, that is appreciated 8-)
As for "Inga" -- I don't want to give anything away.
--Mayor
Re: What do you think?
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 13-May-2004 10:16:57 (#8051)
It seemed to me like a fair mix of difficulty levels with the questions. I wouldn't want to discuss any of them in particular, in case someone reads this before they take the quiz. Any criticisms I could make would be minor anyway. I think it is a good general test of exposure to the Blackjack community.
The Inga thing is a bit confusing... I had a theory, but now I think I'm wrong.
Also, I had a co-worker take it who only knows what I have discussed with him about counting. He scored a 108 cold. He is also good test taker. So, this score seems about right to me for someone with a conversational knowledge of APing, and good test taking abilities.
-Felix
Re: New feature, "Blackjack IQ test"
Posted by shaggy18vw on 13-May-2004 02:44:07 (#8044)
I got a 160, but I don't know who Inga is!
Re: New feature, "Blackjack IQ test"
Posted by John on 13-May-2004 04:19:27 (#8045)
163 and don't know who Inga is either. Maybe a picture of Inga at the end of the test, mayor ?
It Won't Load for Me *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 13-May-2004 10:32:59 (#8053)
It wiil not load for me! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 13-May-2004 10:53:02 (#8054)
Re: It wiil not load for me!
Posted by The Mayor on 13-May-2004 11:12:44 (#8056)
Sigh ... freaking JAVA applets, freaking Bill Gates.
Try using IE 6.0 or later.
--Mayor
Re: It wiil not load for me!
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 13-May-2004 11:17:44 (#8057)
I couldn't load it in IE6 or Netscape 4.7, but it worked fine in Netscape7. Is Inga Hot?
dead link for me too. *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 13-May-2004 11:21:24 (#8058)
Re: dead link for me too.
Posted by The Mayor on 13-May-2004 12:21:00 (#8061)
Does someone know javascript or php and want to re-write this test so that it always works?
Let me know...
--Mayor
Inga
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 13-May-2004 11:33:57 (#8060)
>>Is Inga Hot?
She must be. She has lowered all our I.Q.s by several points!
Re: Inga
Posted by Inskipp on 13-May-2004 12:46:35 (#8063)
I know who Inga is, but I can't get the test to load, so I guess my IQ is 5.
I Have IE 6.0 With Latest Updates
Posted by SammyBoy on 13-May-2004 13:24:31 (#8065)
Java is enabled.
Re: I Have IE 6.0 With Latest Updates
Posted by The Mayor on 13-May-2004 13:56:10 (#8067)
Ok, I'll learn php and re-write it 8-)
Worked for me with IE 6.0 *NM*
Posted by MrPill on 13-May-2004 14:15:05 (#8068)
Evaluate my play
Posted by John on 13-May-2004 04:32:45 (#8046)
Ok so I've had two great weeks as a green chipper.
Week one - up 98 units
Week two - up 88 units
That is after expenses, too !
Need some advice so I can keep playing, though. Most of the tables I was at called out checks play. Some didn't but I really didn't use that as a criterion on whether I kept playing at that table or not. Do most of you get the checks play? Do you worry about that ?
Most of the time, the dealer called out checks play and then the pit boss said "ok" and walked away and thought nothing of it. Keep in mind, that I am only going to be playing at each of these casinos once a month for at most 3 hours at each.
I got shuffled up on at one casino. That is the first and only time I have ever been shuffled up on. I got a tap on the shoulder at another. The guy didn't tell me to leave but it was suggested. Those two incidents are the only negative encounters that I've had.
I had one pitboss come up and engage me in some worthless conversation which I thought was rather contrived.
Black girls seem to like me when I'm playing at the high limit tables. :) They wave at me.
Re: Evaluate my play
Posted by The Mayor on 13-May-2004 09:55:07 (#8049)
>Ok so I've had two great weeks as a green chipper.
>Week one - up 98 units
>Week two - up 88 units
>That is after expenses, too !
These are VERY MUCH short term results, and do not have much signifance (other than that it is nice to win).
>Need some advice so I can keep playing, though. Most of the tables I was at called out checks play. Some didn't but I really didn't use that as a criterion on whether I kept playing at that table or not. Do most of you get the checks play?
All the time.
>Do you worry about that ?
Only if it causes the pit to monitor my play.
> Keep in mind, that I am only going to be playing at each of these casinos once a month for at most 3 hours at each.
You can play more than that. Are you playing in LV? Certainly you can visit the casinos a lot more than 3 hours/month if you are careful.
Keep us informed of your progress,
--Mayor
Checks Play!
Posted by Sentry on 13-May-2004 10:05:41 (#8050)
The "Checks Play" call comes for two reasons:
1) A bet has been made at or above $100.00. The dealer may be required to annoucnce this so that the higeher bet can be monitored and paid accurately. also the casino does not want missing black chips going unacounted for.
2) At some sweatier places, a sudden bet jump (and not necessarily a large one) has been made, and the dealers are required to announce it so that the pit can pounce on counters.
#1 is routine and harmless, #2 is a barring waiting to happen.
One of the greatest enhancements to my game came from overcoming my fear of the suits in the pit. I enjoy talking to them now, and am able to keep them busy writing up comp slips and running errands for me.
Sentry
Re: Evaluate my play
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-May-2004 13:11:18 (#8064)
Well, when a girl of any color that you don't know waves at you when you are playing at a table, chances are very high you're dealing with a prostitute. And if you're not familiar with these girls, most of them are on drugs and desperate and very capable of theft, robbery, and extortion so watch out. Be totally paranoid if you choose to play with them.
Your play stats sound great. You are way, way above EV. Just remember two things:
1) You will not always be above EV like this.
2) Just because you are above EV, doesn't mean you're destined to lose at some point in the future to make up for it. For those two weeks, you beat the game, and the bounty is yours. Your EV starts anew with every session and every hand you play.
Re: Evaluate my play
Posted by John on 13-May-2004 16:40:53 (#8075)
Thanks guys. I will keep you posted on my progress. It is very exciting for me. I am going on another trip later this week. I don't live in Vegas and frankly, I think Vegas probably doesn't have the best BJ anymore.
I did take some heavy losses. I took one loss recently that was 1500 dollars. My records show that I have lost over 1000 dollars 3 times since becoming a green chipper.
I don't live in a city with any Casinos so it is a little drive for me but well worth it.
The Mayor's Survey and Podium for May
Posted by Sentry on 13-May-2004 09:13:16 (#8048)
The topic of May's Podium,and the related survey are of great interest to me. I've made a list of books that are sources for information on these topics, and I would appreciate any further reccomendations.
Shuffle tracking
Blackjack Shuffle Tracking Cookbook by Arnold Snyder
Shuffle Tracking for Beginners by George C
Ace location techniques
? I have not read the texts on shuffle tracking, and I'm looking for specific recommendations there as well as on Ace location, which I'm guessing is closely related.
Front loading
Million Dollar Blackjack by Ken Uston
Side bets
?
Watch for marked cards, Encourage dealer errors, Observe everything
Basic Blackjack by Stanford Wong
Beyond Counting by James Grosjean
Comps & Coupons
Comp City by Max Rubin
The Frugal Gambler & More Frugal Gambling by Jean Scott
American Casino Guide by Steve Bourie
Burning the Tables on Las Vegas by Ian Andersen
I'm sure I've forgotten some- please add your suggestions to the list of any texts that contribute vlauable information on mastering these techniques. Masybe the Mayor could archive a final list, categorized by the specialized information.
Thanks,
Sentry
Re: The Mayor's Survey and Podium for May
Posted by LEARNING TO COUNT on 14-May-2004 08:43:50 (#8099)
Shuffle tracking
Blackjack Shuffle Tracking Cookbook by Arnold Snyder
Shuffle Tracking for Beginners by George C
"Both excelent books but you must be perfect at counting. Most use HI-LO formost of the techniques. There maybe other shuffle techniques that use other counts such as ko etc."
Ace location techniques?
I have not read the texts on shuffle tracking, and I'm looking for specific recommendations there as well as on Ace location, which I'm guessing is closely related.
"Very advance spin off from tracking."
Front loading
Million Dollar Blackjack by Ken Uston
"Excellent book a little bit of hype but a definite asset to your library. SOlid info with a lot of bragging and casino romance. Tip When training for flashes it is best to have some one stand twenty feet away and slowly show you card by card then speed up to practice. use different cards Gemaco and Bee casino cars are best to use. Learn the patterns."
Side bets?
"Lots of material out there. Grosjean has a lot on side bets and the Mayor is the leading exponent of the LL side bet. Most side bets are difficult to use."
Watch for marked cards, Encourage dealer errors, Observe everything
Basic Blackjack by Stanford Wong
Beyond Counting by James Grosjean
"Million dollar BJ has info too!"
Comps & Coupons
Comp City by Max Rubin
The Frugal Gambler & More Frugal Gambling by Jean Scott
American Casino Guide by Steve Bourie
Burning the Tables on Las Vegas by Ian Andersen
A stupid question just popped into my mind
Posted by Victoria on 13-May-2004 12:27:11 (#8062)
Since I do not play and will not play 6/5 or the even money BJ wonderfully offered at a Vegas hot pit, the answer is not important but I was just wondering.
When you have blackjack and the dealer shows an ace, do they offer you "even money?"
Calling all Ploppies
Posted by SammyBoy on 13-May-2004 13:29:42 (#8066)
I've wondered the same thing and don't see how they could. With a $10 bet, $5 bet for insurance, Dealer blackjack pays $12. $12 -$5 = $7. It would have to pay 3:2 to get even money. I know you know all this, I'm just going through it in my head. What are the chances a ploppy will be able to answer this for us?
Most places do not allow even money on 6/5 ploppy ripoff
Posted by LVBear584 on 13-May-2004 17:00:23 (#8076)
When you have blackjack and the dealer shows an ace, do they offer you "even money?"
I actually studied the 6/5 game when it was first gaining popularity. Policy varies from casino to casino, but most do not offer the even money option. I have seen it confuse and annoy ploppies who are accustomed to the normally stupid play of taking even money.
With the massive house edge, it's typical caisno overkill to deny the 6/5 ploppies this little option. The good news is that it may actually drive some ploppies away from the 6/5 game, because they are used to accepting the sucker's even money, and now they get NOTHING on some of their blackjacks.
Re: 6/5 ploppy ripoff
Posted by Sentry on 13-May-2004 17:24:42 (#8077)
Part of the casinos' love for 6:5 is that it is in the public domain, right? They don't have to pay any liscencing fees for this ploppy milking machine.
So what does the layout say on these games- does it have the standard "Insurance Pays 2 to 1"?
Insurance does pay 2 to 1
Posted by SammyBoy on 13-May-2004 23:29:48 (#8090)
Even in a 6:5 game. When a ploppy takes even money he is taking insurance. If the dealer does not have BJ the player loses his insurance bet, but then gets paid 6 to 5 for his BJ. If the dealer does have BJ, the player's BJ pushes but he gets paid 2 to 1 on insurance, so in this case he gets his even money, but if the dealer does not have BJ, he would not get even money. does that make sense?
Not Usually
Posted by djmcosmo on 04-Jun-2004 18:08:51 (#8571)
6:5 BJ games usually don't offer the opportunity for "even money" on a player BJ with Ace showing. However this is actually the PROPER PLAY to make because of the reduced BJ payoff.
"Need A Little Blackjack"
Posted by zengrifter on 13-May-2004 14:34:26 (#8069)
"Need A Little Blackjack"
- by Unknown
I need a little "Blackjack", what da ya say,
need a little card to get to L.A.
I'm sitten here frazzled, a little forelom,
can't get a card, man am I worn...
I need a little 'Blackjack what da ya say,
come on man give me a break its late in the day...
Need an ace and a black jack with a little help from you I'll be o.k.
Vegas is a tough town I'll tell you right now,
been here 24 hours man am I down,
did you shuffle them cards, you won another round.
Cmon dealer what do you say,
forget the ace with a black jack I'll take it any old way...
my socks are worn, my pants are torn,
times like this I wish I'd never been born.
please dealer what do you say,
can I please have just one little ole blackjack to get to L.A.?
Hey, wow man thanks, now I'm gonna close my eyes think real hard and pray,
just one more please, ya man the very same way.
IQ test re-written in php -- please try again!
Posted by The Mayor on 13-May-2004 15:19:25 (#8070)
I managed to figure out the scripting language php today and re-write the exam from JAVA into php. It should work in all browsers, though the format of the exam is a bit different.
Here is the link:
http://www.cardcounter.com/BJ_IQ/BJIQ.html
All comments welcomed.
Thanks,
--Mayor
Re: IQ test re-written in php -- please try again!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-May-2004 17:40:05 (#8079)
Huh. It says I have a blackjack IQ of only 118.
Of course there are a few questions in there that ned a bit of modification. I answered literally using no preconceptions of the way we normally say things and what we normally mean. One that stands out- must you show your ID to a police officer in a casino if he requests it? Not enough information. In the US, no. In many other countries, yes. But here you will be asked to leave any casino if you refuse to show ID.
LTC please comment
Posted by The Mayor on 13-May-2004 17:41:26 (#8080)
We should have LTC comment on this one. He was the one who told me about this -- but yes, I am assuming USA. oops.
Agree
Posted by suicyco maniac on 13-May-2004 20:02:18 (#8084)
I got 144 but agree some questions are misleading like the flashing question are we talking only about blackjack or other games too...also the being arrested for tresspassing it is not 100% you will be arrested but it could happen. and a few others SM
Welcome to Amerika
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 13-May-2004 21:18:13 (#8087)
IF a casino employee, or casino security, asks for your ID, you can laugh and walk out of the place.
If a POLICE OFFICER asks for your ID, and you refuse, you can be locked up for up to 48 hours until they can identify you.
(after all you have two legs and two arms and two eyes, etc. just like the guy who held up the liquor store last night, how do they know it wasn't you?)
This right of the police to demand ID has been strengthed since 9/11 with the Patriot Acts.
152 for me; Not as Smart as I thought :-) *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 13-May-2004 23:31:46 (#8091)
Re: Oh come on now
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-May-2004 02:40:13 (#8093)
Well, there is a little more to it than that. A policeman has to have "reasonable suspicion" to stop you and question you and this includes asking for ID. The test for reasonable suspicion isn't very hard- a casino employee can tell him that he thinks you are cheating, or that you look like you might be underage. Just like if you were in a store and the store clerk tells the clerk that he saw you shoplifting, his statement alone is enough to cause suspicion. To arrest you he has to have "probable cause"- evidence that to a trained police officer makes it look like you are probably guilty of a crime. This would include seeing a tape of you cheating, or finding stolen property in your pocket, or witnesses who tell him that you have been read the trespass act.
A nice urban myth....
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 14-May-2004 08:48:43 (#8101)
"A policeman has to have "reasonable suspicion" to stop you and question you and this includes asking for ID."
WRONG.... Thanks for playing, please try again.
It has been upheld in court many, many times. Police don't have to have any suspicion, reasonable or otherwise, to ask for ID.
RE: when you are being stopped at the police checkpoint for drunk drivers, (which amazingly enough always write more tickets for other types of offences and warrents than catch actual drunks), WHAT was their "reasonable suspicion" to stop you and ask for ID? The fact that you were on a public roadway?
A police man can ask any one, any where, for ID. Of course, it has also been upheld by the courts, once this little formality has taken place, unless the police officer places you under arrest, you can just walk away and not answer any questions.
Re: A nice urban myth....
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-May-2004 09:26:08 (#8105)
It is illiegal to have no ID on you in Nevada, no? That is reason enough to ask you for it. All the COP has to say is that he thought you had no ID on you and was just doing his job.
Re: LTC please comment
Posted by cphessy on 14-May-2004 01:03:12 (#8092)
hrmmm i got 145
who is inga??
if its someone's family member then yes she's pretty =P
anyone gonna be in vegas next wk?
hit me up
Your blackjack IQ: 160
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-May-2004 08:46:20 (#8100)
There are some questionable questions, not really blackjack realated IMO. I mean, who really cares if Stanford Wong is pretty and Inga is over 6 feet tall? This might mean you have read this article or that book with other pertinent material in in. Some readers simply forget the non issues and remember the real meat and potatoes. If I have time I will hack the test to get all the scores right.
Re: Your blackjack IQ: 160
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 14-May-2004 10:20:10 (#8108)
>>...not really blackjack realated IMO. I mean, who really cares if Stanford Wong is pretty and Inga is over 6 feet tall?
Yup, that's why In my feedback to the Mayor I worded this as being "A good test of exposure to the Blackjack community".
But by the same token, What Hi-Lo player really cares what the -6 indecies are for Hi-Opt2? Peripheral information like the Wong question is probably necessary to make a fair, general test with some harder questions on it.
-Felix
Re: Your blackjack IQ: 160
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-May-2004 11:33:39 (#8110)
A little trivia made it fun no doubt. I got the Inga and the Wong one right off the top. And one of the ones I got wrong is of great interest to me for a multiplicity of reasons.
Re: Your blackjack IQ: 160
Posted by The Mayor on 14-May-2004 12:05:35 (#8112)
In the extended Stanford Binet IQ test, one of the questions is "Who is Amelia Earhart". Such cultural questions test exposure and retention, and are quite arbitrary -- but necessary.
Re: The problem with all IQ tests...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-May-2004 14:44:18 (#8114)
... is that they request digital data in an analog world. If you are smart enough and "different" enough you can work your way around to all the answers being correct, or the best answer being not one of the offered choices. It easily becomes a question of "Guess what I'm thinking".
This happens a lot with the number progression questions that are on most IQ tests: e.g. "Which number comes next in this series? 8,6,7,5,3,0..." If you like addition and subtraction you get one answer, if you like parabolic functions you get another one, and if you like 80's pop music you get yet another.
Re: The problem with all IQ tests...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 14-May-2004 15:17:04 (#8115)
Yup, I agree.
Scantron has probably produced as many frustrated clamdiggers as it has doctors.
-Felix
9 comes next :-) *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 14-May-2004 16:23:14 (#8117)
Your blackjack IQ: 200
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-May-2004 09:23:11 (#8104)
Is 200 the max?? It's nice to see where the differences were! After everyone is done the test we should do a round robin discussion.
Re: Your blackjack IQ: 200
Posted by John on 15-May-2004 19:28:51 (#8130)
Lets go kick some Casino tail.
Just want to say that this is the best counting site. No one is selling anything. No agenda here. It's probably the most mature one, too. My trip is tomorrow morning. I hope to see some of you on the tables.
Maybe I should change my name to Off-topic.
Re: Your blackjack IQ: 200
Posted by The Mayor on 15-May-2004 20:48:47 (#8131)
Thanks for your kind words about this site!
I hope you take their money tomorrow, a lot of it 8-)
--Mayor
Re: Your blackjack IQ: 200
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 16-May-2004 00:07:54 (#8132)
Hey Ya'll:
Question 6. If you have lost 5 hands in a row, you are very likely to lose the 6-th.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this question. Point being; prior to receiving our first two cards, we are always more likely to lose any given hand than we are at winning it. Therefore, the answer would be true if we perceive the question in this way.
Maybe also, it would help if the word "very" were struck from the question.
Guess I'm getting a little antsy about analyzing the IQ test bit by bit.
Objective or Subjective Answers
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 16-May-2004 09:10:41 (#8136)
IF is the middle word in LifE.....
Semyon Dukach Seminars
Posted by zengrifter on 13-May-2004 15:23:43 (#8071)
Semyon Dukach was on CNN the other day. zg
http://blackjackscience.com/seminars.html
Semyon Dukach was the founder and president of Amphibian Investments, the largest and most successful of the MIT blackjack teams. Banned from the casinos for winning too much money, he has trained and mentored over 100 successful MIT blackjack team players, including the ones on whom the characters in Bringing Down the House are based.
Mr. Dukach has an MS from MIT and a BS from Columbia. He was the founder and CEO of Fast Engines, an internet software company sold to Adero in 2000, and currently sits on the board of Vert Inc., and is a CEO mentor at the Cambridge Business Development Center. His current projects include running EMUmail, Inc., with offshoot sister sites SMTP.com and SendSimply, investing in start-ups, and, of course, running Blackjack Seminars.
In recent television appearances including ABC Primetime and in an interview on CNN, Semyon Dukach has vowed to share his knowledge about beating the casinos with a larger audience. On May 9, the History Channel released a two-hour feature on the development of the MIT Blackjack Teams, featuring Mr. Dukach as one of the key original players. Future TV spots will include a BBC special (date to be announced).
Going Public.
Posted by Tom on 13-May-2004 15:29:47 (#8073)
Do you really think all this scmuck and so forth is good medicine for the real card counters..................I DONT.
Re: Going Public.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-May-2004 07:58:42 (#8096)
You are right. By disclosing so much info about winning methods it will do nothing but hurt us in the long run. Why do you think we are seeing so many 6:5 tables, CSM's, etc? After David McDowell's Ace Prediciton book gets printed they will begin to shuffle the decks behind a curtain, or go totally CSM, then hand shuffle on top of that. You see, after you've made your millions, you'd like the recognition for being so damned smart. At what cost?
Re: Semyon Dukach Seminars
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-May-2004 07:41:33 (#8095)
Thanks for the link. I've been to this site before. Think the guys at BJ21 were taking a stab at it a while back.
Midnight Cruises
Posted by Dschddny on 13-May-2004 15:25:23 (#8072)
Has anyone ever gone on a midnight gambling cruise, such as the one here on Long Island which takes you out for about 5 hours of gambling? Mine offers Surrender, but I'm not sure about the other conditions. I wonder - how do you deal with "having to" play at the same casino for the full 5 hours and avoid getting heat (or thrown in the water!)? Also, would I be immediately suspicious getting on the ship by myself (as my wife gets seasick and thus wouldn't be joining me)?
Thanks!
Re: Midnight Cruises
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 13-May-2004 15:56:31 (#8074)
"How do you deal with "having to" play at the same casino for the full 5 hours and avoid getting heat (or thrown in the water!)?"
I would just blend in with the hundreds of other clueless ploppies, who will also be gambling there for the full 5 hours.
"Also, would I be immediately suspicious getting on the ship by myself (as my wife gets seasick and thus wouldn't be joining me)?"
How does the ship even know you are married? And how many degenerate losing gambling bums take their wives along as they pour their life savings into the casino bottom line? They might even like the fact that you don't have some one with you to "pull the reins" on your sick gambling addiction ;-)
Re: Midnight Cruises
Posted by revereman on 13-May-2004 17:27:39 (#8078)
Don't bother. The BJ sucks. The food sucks. The players would have to be upgraded 3x to move into a trailer park. The water can get choppy. The players suck (doesn't matter EV wise but very unpleasant). Dealers aren't even friendly. In case I seem unclear, don't go.
Re: You don't say
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-May-2004 17:54:18 (#8081)
Funny, I was thinking about getting on the Midnight Gambler tomorrow night!
If I go, I'll heed your warning about the food. You can always get away with bringing your own, just make sure everything you bring is in packages with the Kosher symbol. I do that to bring food into the movies all the time. That might be a little harder to get away with on a Friday night! But it also makes it less likely that there will be an observant Jew working who will figure out that you are pulling his leg.
According to CBJN, rules are decent, pen is awful, but the min is low ($5) so that it will allow a strong spread providing there is no heat. That would suck to be stuck out there for 4 hours on a crappy boat where you are barred from playing BJ. If the crowd is the way you say it is my guess is there will be no heat.
Re: You don't say
Posted by revereman on 13-May-2004 21:41:08 (#8089)
Don't bring a ham and cheese sandwich.
Seriously, it's not a very pleasant experience.
Re: You don't say
Posted by Dschddny on 14-May-2004 08:05:53 (#8097)
Are you going on the Midnight Gambler II out of Freeport? If so, I'd love to get a full report afterwards (conditions, heat, food, gambling time, etc).
Thanks and may the advantage be with you!
Re: You don't say
Posted by Dschddny on 26-May-2004 15:26:56 (#8365)
Automatic Monkey, did you ever go on that Midnight Cruise? If so, how did it go?
Re: Midnight Cruises
Posted by BlackJackHack on 13-May-2004 21:40:39 (#8088)
I once played on one of those boats in the Tampa area -- an 8D S17 LS game with poor pen.
One important thing to keep in mind - they don't open the games until you're in international waters (12 miles, I believe), which takes about an hour each way. The five hour cruise, then, only offers about three hours of gambling.
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