At one time, the website CardCounter.com held an active message forum with many contributors. When the previous site owner planned to shut down the site, he allowed us to archive the messages here at BlackjackInfo. They are formatted as they originally appeared, but no further comments on threads are permitted. If you want to discuss any of these topics, please do so at the BlackjackInfo Forums.
lawsuits against Griffin etc.
Posted by Lawsuit Larry on 13-May-2004 18:13:49 (#8082)
I read CardKounters essay about Griffin, Bio etc breaking of the credit laws. What ever happened with that? Were lawsuits filed? Any result?
My SD strategy for review
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-May-2004 19:25:27 (#8083)
This summer I will be spending a day and a half Downtown playing SD. I've identified 5 playable SD games in the Downtown area, and simmed a conservative spread strategy for beating them that I think may survive the Downtown SD heat. I've written it all up here for review by the experts.
THE COUNT- Hi-Opt II, Ace sidecount, additional aces worth +2 TC. Quarter deck resolution.
THE SPREAD- 1:4. Consists of two bets- two hands of 2 units on betting TC>=+3, 1 hand of 1 unit all other times. If it looks like I can get away with it, I will up this a bit in the field but from recent trip reports I've read I could even be pushing the envelope with this.
INSURANCE- At playing TC>+5, readjusted for Ace count (Ace count readjust not simmed)
RESULTS- IBA= +1.40%, Win rate for $10 unit at 100 hands/hour = $25.23. DI= 11.31
PLAYING INDEXES: I decided on 23 most beneficial ones.
12 vs 2 hit < 6
12 vs 3 hit < 3
12 vs 4 hit < 1
12 vs 5 hit < -1
12 vs 6 hit < -4
13 vs 2 hit < 0
13 vs 3 hit < -2
13 vs 4 hit < -4
13 vs 5 hit < -6
14 vs 2 hit < -5
15 vs X hit < 6
15 vs A hit < 8
16 vs X hit < 0
16 vs A hit < 5
8 vs 4 DD >= 10
9 vs 7 DD >= 6
10 vs 9 DD >= -2
10 vs X DD >= 6
11 vs X DD >= -6
A8 vs 5 DD >= 3
XX vs 4 split >= 11
XX vs 5 split >= 8
XX vs 6 split >= 7
Re: My SD strategy for review
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-May-2004 07:34:21 (#8094)
That looks like a solid plan. There are always room for some improvements. If you are going to try to XX vs 456 you better be willing to XX vs ? with the wrong count to establish yourself as a wayward XX splitter, or you'll be toast. You may also want to use consolidation betting from Malmuth's blackjack essays, what we call around here "Grifter's Gambit." He deserves the recognition for reviving it, bringing it into the spot light where it belongs. Scroll down about half way in the Grifter article to find it. Actually, above that there is good XX splitting info too. I suggest you read it again and ignore the "me me me" part of the article. I have already edited it and printed it out for its good bj info, you may want to do the same, or wait to get the Henry T edited version. You're playing a good game with a superior count, so you are way ahead of the pack already. Just hope those 6:5 Jerkjack sings don't spring up on those tables between then and now. And tape a Sears catalogue to your ass, cuz you may get the boot! ;>
And don't talk to stangers!
Re: My SD strategy for review
Posted by Dschddny on 14-May-2004 08:11:21 (#8098)
If I understand correctly, you'll either be betting your min or your max every hand, with no in between? I've often thought that that made sense, rather than a linear progression between the min and max bet based on the count. But, it seems that most people opt for the latter approach. Thoughts?
Re: My SD strategy for review
Posted by eyesfor21 on 14-May-2004 13:14:52 (#8113)
what about the often occuring hands of
14,15,16 vs x,a
hard doubles 12's=?
a,a-no split?
Re: Not significant enough to learn
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 16-May-2004 00:49:07 (#8133)
My list of index contains all the ones that pay more than 5 cents per hour more than the Basic Strategy play, according to the sims. Given a $10 BU.
Gino Polkamouse
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 16-May-2004 09:08:27 (#8135)
Have you GPM's Gino order? It kind of tosses DS's Ill 18 onto its ear. Maybe that's why the IQ test had that question in it.
What is a Hi IQ for the BJ IQ test.
Posted by lEARNING TO COUNT on 14-May-2004 08:50:43 (#8102)
I fear I am a retard on that test I scored a 147???? : (
Re: What is a Hi IQ for the BJ IQ test.
Posted by The Mayor on 14-May-2004 09:54:02 (#8107)
You only know what the scores mean in relation to others who have taken the exam. Without that information, there really is not much meaning. If you compare your score only against the elite experts who take the exam, then report their very high scores, it could be depressing.
I think I'll write the exam so that it keeps track of all the final scores, so I can get an average and standard deviation. But then, I have to write/learn some more PHP. Maybe later today 8-)
--Mayor
Re: What is a Hi IQ for the BJ IQ test.
Posted by LL on 14-May-2004 16:14:08 (#8116)
It seems some questions are not clear, for example:
If you bet double kelly you will go broke. The answer is, it depends on how long you play.
LVHCM T OR F Uhm, is there a "correct" answer for this?
Inga was beautiful 20 years ago. Have you seen her today?
Re: What is a Hi IQ for the BJ IQ test.
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 14-May-2004 20:00:04 (#8119)
Ya, some questions could be answered differently depending upon other important factors; i.e.
The question about Inga. What is beautiful to one, may not be to another. I also had to just leave it as; "Don't Know" because I wasn't really sure who she is but I think maybe I do know.
BTW, what IQ number would a perfect score give?
It Just Hit Me Who Inga Is
Posted by SammyBoy on 14-May-2004 09:09:41 (#8103)
When can we tell?
Re: It Just Hit Me Who Inga Is
Posted by The Mayor on 14-May-2004 09:51:14 (#8106)
Just wait until everyone here has had a chance at the exam -- then go ahead 8-)
--Mayor
Re: It Just Hit Me Who Inga Is
Posted by BradRod on 14-May-2004 20:40:23 (#8120)
does the "g" stand for google ?
Coupon basic strategy?
Posted by Sonny on 14-May-2004 10:38:47 (#8109)
Here's a small clipping by Anthony Curtis from the new LVA newsletter:
> Coupon-playing basic strategy calls for always trying to get the coupon down
> on a busy table, and definitely playing to the left of a single player.
Is this just a matter of etiquette? Is there an actual advantage to playing full tables or to the left of any players if you are only playing BS with a coupon? My BJ IQ was a mere 156 (a lucky guess on #27), so maybe I'm missing something here.
-Sonny-
Re: Coupon basic strategy?
Posted by Sentry on 14-May-2004 11:44:51 (#8111)
Yes, that is just etiquette, intended to make one the least nuisance possible while on a coupon run. It all depends on your goal. Ordinarily, I use coupons to boost my EV for a game I would be playing anyway. When I have a coupon at a place that offers unattractive games, I'll use the hit and run approach. What we are trying to do here is not look like the opportunistic vultures we are and keep the casino and the other players happy, so these kind of offers will be available in the future.
As for basic strategy for coupons, it depends again on your goal and style of play, the rules offered, and your tolerance for risk. In some instances, casinos allow you to double (or split) for cash with a match play coupon. I welcome an opportunity to double for more, others may balk at the prospect.
One thing you may want to consider is using your matchplay coupons at the Craps table on the Pass, or don't Pass line. The house odds are low, and you'll never have to hit a hard 16.
Sentry
Thank you for your patience -- IQ IQ IQ
Posted by The Mayor on 14-May-2004 18:24:06 (#8118)
The IQ exam now keeps track of all the scores, and will tell you the current average score ... but I had to store it at my university web address:
http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~teliot/php/BJIQ.html
Would you mind taking it one more time so we can build our data base of results?
Thanks!
-Mayor
Re: Thank you for your patience -- IQ IQ IQ
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 14-May-2004 21:47:11 (#8121)
Crap!
Now it's 160!
What made me 20 points stupider since the other day?
-Felix
Re: Thank you for your patience -- IQ IQ IQ
Posted by The Mayor on 14-May-2004 21:56:17 (#8122)
It used to be on a scale up to 207 -- I took off 7 points from the total possible. Also, I changed a few questions, and changed the right answer on two others.
Sorry -- it is a work in progress. But it is getting better.
I had to add security features to the exam, because a friendly hacker already wrote a program to bomb the script. Ah, what a fun community!
--Mayor
Zen Grifter part deux
Posted by The Mayor on 14-May-2004 22:04:04 (#8123)
http://www.bjinsider.com/newsletter_52_grift.shtml
Re: Zen Grifter part deux
Posted by KevinBlackwood on 15-May-2004 11:49:28 (#8126)
I thought it was an excellent interview and covered some great information. I highly recommend it. ZG offers some helpful insights for players out there needing to look outside the box.
Re: Zen Grifter part deux
Posted by LL on 17-May-2004 07:06:34 (#8145)
Zen Grifter has his Darryls confused. The Darryl he mentions that was part of team Hammer & CORE is not the same Darryl that played with Ken Uston and is a musician.
But I may have my Grifters confused. I read an interview with one who said he never had a job other than pool boy at Caesar's, and this one worked in a boiler room selling pens.
Zen Grifter part III
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-May-2004 10:24:45 (#8166)
I can't wait til part III comes out. As Spock would so often say:
"Fascinating!"
Re: Zen Grifter part III - NO PART 3
Posted by zengrifter on 18-May-2004 13:04:44 (#8173)
NO part 3 is comming - its all here at CC.com homepage. zg
Re: Zen Grifter CONFUSED...
Posted by zengrifter on 18-May-2004 12:57:21 (#8171)
... its possible that I am confusing the two Darryls - my Darryl played with Uston - Darryl P. As for the lifeguard job, that was the ONLY "SALARIED" JOB. The others were straight commission, etc. zg
DP
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-May-2004 16:24:08 (#8175)
IMO, DP is a better player than Uston was, just not loud and obnoxious. He is an awesome man in his own right, and that's why you never see him jerking himself off in public like wannabe bigshots tend to do. On BJ21 someone asked who the best BJ player in the world was, and a wise poster stated that we may never know the answer to that very question.
David McDowell's Blackjack Ace Prediction
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 15-May-2004 09:53:24 (#8124)
My final review comments on David's up and coming book.
"Thorp didn't want to publish on Ace location, and my chapter on the subject is short for the same reason. Never the less, here it is, in plain English, and worth it's weight is flawless diamonds. Blackjack Ace Prediction is the fire from the dragon's mouth, bound to burn unsuspecting tables around the world. This book is a total must-have for the serious blackjack player."
Re: David McDowell's Blackjack Ace Prediction
Posted by The Mayor on 15-May-2004 10:11:12 (#8125)
You were MUCH more kind than I.
A great book -- a must have -- and I hope there are a few improvements before it hits the shelves 8-)
--Mayor
Re: David McDowell's Blackjack Ace Prediction
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 15-May-2004 17:09:20 (#8128)
"You were MUCH more kind than I."
That goes without saying! ;> (joking)
"A great book -- a must have -- and I hope there are a few improvements before it hits the shelves 8-)"
I think we were all a big part of those improvements. I find it much easier to do than the theory of it all makes it look like. Like trying to teach a trout to swim. ;> Good thing too, or BJ will be dead. You'll wish for a 6:5 game.
Pearl River MS BJ Games
Posted by the_heater on 15-May-2004 16:49:19 (#8127)
Anybody have any info on the games in Pearl River, MS? I have played in the Biloxi area, but not at Pearl River. Thanks.
Re: Pearl River MS BJ Games *LINK*
Posted by Sentry on 17-May-2004 08:41:12 (#8146)
Pearl River Resort operates two casinos across the street from one another, Silver Star and the Golden Moon. They are owned and operated by the Choctaw tribe, and the casinos are not regulated by the Mississippi State Gaming Commission.
Generally the games are poor in comparison with what you'll find elsewhere in the state. They have 2 deck, 6 deck and CSMs, but so far, no 6:5 games, thank goodness. Shallow dealing, and seldom will you find pitch games with minimums below $25. The tables are usually crowded, and that was the case even before their recent cutback in the number of open tables. Another big drawback here is that if you want to change casinos, the next closest place is about 110 miles away.
It is worth a visit, and depending on your style, you may find a playable game. They sometimes have some good deals on hotel rooms through their website, and first time visitors receive a free buffet when joining their player's club (Mon- Thur. only).
Below you'll find a link to their recent staff layoffs and closings of many of their BJ tables.
Sentry
Patience
Posted by CanKen on 15-May-2004 18:41:57 (#8129)
Came across a quote last night from J-J Rousseau. It's a nice thought for those of us who have to play mostly 8 deck, or even 6 deck shoes.
"Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet"
CK
Re: Patience
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 16-May-2004 09:04:31 (#8134)
Faced with such adversity, we are forced to "go beyond counting." After that, it gets pretty hard to stay humble. ;>
Response to a post about a hand
Posted by The Mayor on 17-May-2004 19:08:35 (#8155)
Someone posted a question here, but now I can't find it.
It went like this:
first round in double deck -- player has 4,4 dealer shows 3. Player hits, gets a 4. Dealer then draws:
3-3-3-2-2-A-A-A-2
For a RC of 6 (and a TC of +3).
The question was if it was a good idea to continue playing, given that only 5/8 of the aces remain.
YES!!!
This sim is for flat betting the remainder of the deck at $10 per hand...
===================================================
PROFESSIONAL BLACKJACK ANALYZER
<Version: PBA 4.3.7>
Results for file: C:\PBA437\FUN_1.txt
May 17, 2004
The following rules were specified in the rules menu:
R>---------------------------------------------------
user deck
Insurance offered
Dealer hits soft-17
With dealer blackjack, player...
Loses one bet max
On ties, player pushes, except...
Loses with 22-26
Resplit to make four hands
Resplit aces not allowed
OK to split unlike 10s, like J-Q
Check hole card under 10, A
Double any hard total
Soft doubling allowed
After splitting...
Double any hard total
Soft doubling allowed
Double two cards only
Shufffle used was: Random Swaps
Dealt to 52 cards remaining.
User deck consisted of the following:
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T J Q K A
5 5 5 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 5
R>--------------------------------------------------
The following counting system was used:
C>--------------------------------------------------
System name: Basic Strategy
C>--------------------------------------------------
B>---------------------------------------------------
The following betting system was used:
Flat Bet
True count is running count per 1. deck(s)
B>---------------------------------------------------
The following simulation results were obtained:
S>---------------------------------------------------
Edge: 1.26
Standard error: 0.01
Sigma: 1.16
Desirability index (DI): 10.91
Number of hands simulated: 81,410,000
Number of hands aborted: 0
Average hands per shoe: 7.98
Number of extra players: 0
Simulated hand is at position: 0
Number of cards burned at start of shoe: 0
Number of cards to remove and count...
before player decision: 0
after player decision: 0
Average initial bet: $10.00
Profit per hand: $0.13
Standard deviation per hand: $11.58
Profit per 100 hands: $12.63
Standard deviation per 100 hands: $115.76
Re: Response to a post about a hand
Posted by The Mayor on 17-May-2004 20:55:39 (#8156)
No wonder, the post is buried in the unemployment thread below 8-)
http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?read=8151
--Mayor
The Moral of the Story
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 17-May-2004 22:04:16 (#8159)
The HiLo true count is +3.
The HiLo count factors in the effect of the ace just fine.
The HiLo count has a betting correlation of about .97
You have a +3, play and bet it!
HO2 Moral of the Story
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-May-2004 10:05:52 (#8165)
first round in double deck -- player has 4,4 dealer shows 3. Player hits, gets a 4. Dealer then draws:
3-3-3-2-2-A-A-A-2
For a RC of 6 (and a TC of +3).
Hi Opt II
!!RC of 12 - TC of 6 - 2Aces poor, betting TC is +2 [6+(-2x2)]. If you are a nickel bettor, $10 is bang on.
The question was if it was a good idea to continue playing, given that only 5/8 of the aces remain.
YES!!!
Re: HO2 Moral of the Story
Posted by Inskipp on 18-May-2004 13:39:49 (#8174)
That was me. Sorry for burying it. The question arose from one of the stories on that dealer web site. The dealer was crowing about beating the player with that amazing run of cards, and the player left, but I was thinking that was no counter, a counter would have stayed with all those little cards gone. Then I wondered whether all those aces gone made a difference.
Thank you.
Burning the tables....literally
Posted by suicyco maniac on 17-May-2004 21:43:17 (#8157)
Saw a clip on the news about a casino cruise in California that caught fire. Just thought it was interesting. SM
Eliot....
Posted by suicyco maniac on 17-May-2004 21:51:03 (#8158)
I seem to have an interesting problem or virus going on right now. The only page on the internet I can log onto is cardcounter.com however I can only access it through my favorites list. Any site I try to type in instantly disconects me from the net and the same is true of all my other bookmarks. Quite the monopoly you seem to have here...I cant even access my email from this computer nor can I pull up the system restore screen. WHAT FUN!! Any ideas anyone???? SM
Re: Eliot....
Posted by The Mayor on 17-May-2004 22:10:02 (#8160)
How weird!!!
I hope someone here can help you -- but I sure don't have any idea. If you do have a virus, the best strategy is to NOT use your computer until you have a fix in hand -- you risk a lot.
I have never heard of being disconnected as part of the Virus. But these guys are smart. There are a lot of hijacker programs out there that will try and dial 900 numbers on your modem and run up your phone bills. Watch out if you have one of those!
One symptom of a hijacker virus is that even if you reset your home page, next time you use your browswer it is set back to their page.
Good luck! I recommend professional help!
Love the story about Burning the Tables. Hillarious!
--Mayor
Re: Eliot....
Posted by deZerTomB on 17-May-2004 22:25:49 (#8162)
If you're using windows, check your security settings. Otherwise run your anti-virus. I use www.f-prot.com it's free. Also install & run ad-aware, another freebie, www.lavasoft.de
Update & run them once a week.
Good luck!!!
Re: Eliot....
Posted by suicyco maniac on 17-May-2004 23:09:22 (#8163)
I have run several antivirus pograms but like I said I cannot get anywhere else to download any new updates or other virus programs. Eliot is probably right "seek professional help". BTW were you talking about my computer or my mental state :-) it is just weird that this is the only site I seem to be able to load up. SM
Re: Eliot....
Posted by John on 20-May-2004 01:52:26 (#8193)
hey.
You might want to check out the thread below about Abraham's virus. I give some advice on how to prevent being hijacked and getting rid of the stuff afterward.
Lavasoft is good, of course. I use Hijack This a lot. Get it here.
Hijack this will explore what is loading at startup. It is very good. I use it to delete registry entries. Some programs that aren't even spyware have it set by default to load at startup, and Hijack This allows you to delete the registry entry. I'm sick right now so I hope I'm making sense.
If you have the money (or are resourceful), you might want to get the professional version of Ad-aware. It has Ad-Watch which is a stand alone program the offers real time prevention of spyware and things that hijack your computer. You can even lock in your startup registry entries so that they can't be changed, and thus, you can't be hijacked.
On WSOBJ last night
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 18-May-2004 10:01:05 (#8164)
The players did some weird stuff.
1) Bobby doubles for less on a 9 vs. 6 while still early in the round.
2) Micky splits 10's vs. 10 while shoe was at negative C., then splits off another 10. Plays with stiffs. D gets 3 card 21.
3) The young guy on 3B stands on hard 14 v. 10. I don't think the C was high enough to warrant this as being a proper decision. I had stopped counting though by this time so I'm not sure. But I doubt the C got very high after it went negative earlier.
4) On the last hand; Brad is guaranteed to advance as long as he doesn't bet so much as to let Bobby have a chance back in, but he does anyway with a hand shake as if to say, "Here you go I'm decent enough to give you one last chance at beating me." Big mistake, Bobby gets BJ with 5K out and takes 2nd behind Micky while Brad loses his 5K bet. Only person Brad was competing with could have been Micky. Why did he let Bobby back in!? Bobby, you need to thank Brad again for his gift to you.
I also noticed the announcers pretend to know BJ but don't. But that's okay. I just think it would be more exciting to the viewers if they had a great tourney player helping with the announcing.
Re: On WSOBJ last night
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-May-2004 10:27:35 (#8167)
If Uston was around I could see him being the publicity man and announcer for these WSoBJ.
Re: On WSOBJ last night
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 18-May-2004 10:38:24 (#8168)
"The young guy on 3B stands on hard 14 v. 10. I don't think the C was high enough to warrant this as being a proper decision."
Conventional counts are pretty much useless for 14 vs 10. The only thing that matters on this play is HOW MANY 7s ARE LEFT?
Re: On WSOBJ last night
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-May-2004 08:25:08 (#8180)
All depends on the rules. 14 vs. 10 surrender > 3 (HO2) is a very powerful index, and the High-Low one is a good one too. What are the rules they use in tournament blackjack, anyway?
Tournament Rules *LINK*
Posted by Sentry on 19-May-2004 09:03:20 (#8181)
Tournament rules vary, but they are generally based on the regular rules for the same game at the host casino. From there, they may offer an unusual rule variations like to vary the payoffs of BJs, or forbid taking even money on a BJ if you have bet all your bankroll. For example, I think the Mohegan Sun does not allow you to split mis-matched tens in their regular game, but this was allowed during the WSoBJ tournament, as was the manual checking for dealer Blackjacks. Generally, you are playing a standard 6 deck game, sometimes h17, sometimes with late surrender. As for the action during the game, most casinos use a rotating button similar to what they use in poker games, in order that each player will have equal opportunity to be the last to act.
For more information on tournament rules and strategy, check out http://www.blackjackinfo.com/ and http://www.bjfonline.com/.
Anthony Curtis ran a series on his LVA site covering each episode of the WSoBJ. Check the link below.
Sentry
Re: On WSOBJ Monday night
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 19-May-2004 09:12:35 (#8182)
They are using surrender in this tourney. Even so, the young quy on 3B didn't use it and didn't even hit his hard 14 v. 10. What's up with that?
What's more; Micky splits his 10's v. D10 then does it again. I think he knew there was a small card under. What's up with that? Who told him?
Re: On WSOBJ Monday night
Posted by gross on 19-May-2004 11:43:58 (#8183)
Dealer did a "double clutch" on the look at hole card. One of the best advantage plays in the game. Realizing what she had done she then tried to fake the players out. One of the players made a comment which caused her to do the fake. A good player would have kept his mouth shut.
Re: On WSOBJ Monday night
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 19-May-2004 21:40:57 (#8191)
So I guess he thought it was a 4 or something other than an ace or even a 10. I guess I'll buy that instead of accusing him of cheating with a conspirator.
James Grosjean as Egghead
Posted by Sentry on 18-May-2004 10:43:17 (#8169)
I already answered this on BJ21, but I wanted to bring up another topic. Between the disquises, psudonyms and outlandish attire, did anyone else think the players came off like villains from the old Adam West BATMAN tv show?
Re: On WSOBJ last night
Posted by Learning to count on 18-May-2004 12:39:03 (#8170)
I finally caught an episode of this "game show". This episode the MIT guy won. This show is stupid. Pardon my humble oppinion. I watch the poker competition shows because they are "true grit"! This WSOBJ is dumb and the players are boring. I know someone out there is going to be upset because I destroyed thier perceptions and beliefs about this hyped game show. I think any Counter worth his weight and skill will agree that playing in the trenches is far more real and exciting than watching a bunch of idiots make moves based on idiotic gambling beliefs and using betting progressions that they think will win for them. I think we need to concentrate in getting out the word on issues that matter like the end of 6/5,csm, and other casino scams. JMHO!
Re: On WSOBJ last night
Posted by Sentry on 18-May-2004 13:04:15 (#8172)
LTC, you are hating champagne because it is in a paper cup! No doubt, the presentation and commentary of the show left a lot to be desired, but my good man- this is a TV show paying our brethren real dollars to play Blackjack! I just can't see how this is a bad thing.
I'm hoping the producers learned a lot in making this show and can substantially improve future projects. The participants from the show that posted on BlackjackTournaments.com described how the entire series was shot over two grueling days, and apparently the participants wound up playing something like an incredibly slow 15 hands per hour due to the delays necessary to film the action.
As for your mention of progressions, this is advocated (in tournament situations <U>only</U>) by Stanford Wong himself in his classic text, Casino Tournament Strategy. Yep, most of the show was dull, unless you are a tournament nerd like me, but I like to take the optimistic viewpoint. I want to see them do it again, but next time I'd like to be invited to play!
Sentry
Re: On WSOBJ last night
Posted by Learning to count on 19-May-2004 11:44:46 (#8184)
LTC, you are hating champagne because it is in a paper cup! No doubt, the presentation and commentary of the show left a lot to be desired, but my good man- this is a TV show paying our brethren real dollars to play Blackjack! I just can't see how this is a bad thing.
I'm hoping the producers learned a lot in making this show and can substantially improve future projects. The participants from the show that posted on BlackjackTournaments.com described how the entire series was shot over two grueling days, and apparently the participants wound up playing something like an incredibly slow 15 hands per hour due to the delays necessary to film the action.
As for your mention of progressions, this is advocated (in tournament situations only) by Stanford Wong himself in his classic text, Casino Tournament Strategy. Yep, most of the show was dull, unless you are a tournament nerd like me, but I like to take the optimistic viewpoint. I want to see them do it again, but next time I'd like to be invited to play!
Sentry
"I value your input and I respect your oppinion. I dont drink not even for cover. I do drink caffiene attainiable products at the tables. I dont like Champagne. I play semi pro. This means my skills are above average and I have a meager under 25k BR. I play for profit. I play to take the casinos money from them. I want to effect the bottom line on tax day. I am in it for the money. Champagne from a 100 dollar glass or a paper cup; nah; I want cold hard cash! I dont have time for bull shite on TV. What can you learn from such a dismal ignorant show anyway. Black jack is still the number one card game around the world. More people play it than poker. Though Poker in my oppinion a harder game of skill. The Poker shows at least show you life in the trenches. It may be a TV show but hear me now those guys are not holding back. I'm waiting to see one pull a gun and shoot someone after being bluffed out of a million. After you play in the fire why would you think of masturbation at that level of the WSOBJ?" LTC
Re: On WSOBJ last night
Posted by suicyco manaic on 18-May-2004 22:16:43 (#8178)
I hate that show too. The only glimmer of hope I have is that it convinces more ploppie to get out there and play BJ instead of the other carnival games. SM
Re: On WSOBJ last night
Posted by John on 20-May-2004 03:03:35 (#8195)
I can think of worse things to watch on tv but you are right, poker is better for watching.
Anybody see the History Channel's "Breaking Vegas" ? The story about the MIT students. I didn't like it. I thought it portrayed Mr. M as dumb. The students were portrayed in a good light but it kind of ruined my fantasy of what it must have been like. I guess kind of like meeting your favorite movie star and then to be disappointed to find out that he/she looks terrible in person or is a total b****/jerk.
Good Downtown places in LV
Posted by ladykiller on 19-May-2004 12:51:37 (#8186)
Using Hi-Opt II w/ A side count, black chip play. Wondering what the top single deck places in downtown are to play; also what bet spread you've experienced to be without heat. Possibly, best times?
Not sure if you're kidding
Posted by LVBear584 on 19-May-2004 17:16:55 (#8187)
Single deck is all but extinct in Las Vegas.
Golden Nugget has two single deck tables with mediocre pen, usually dealt to Rule of 6, and Las Vegas Club is all single deck, pen varies by dealer. Short sessions are a must in both venues.
The only other single decks in las Vegas are low-level grind joints where skillful black chip play will not be tolerated for more than a few minutes, and/or the table maximums are so low you won't be able to get an adequate spread -- Four Queens, El Cortez, Gold Spike, Western, and Fiesta Rancho are the only other single deck games in las Vegas.
You will have to play shoes in Las Vegas.
Re: Not sure if you're kidding
Posted by The Mayor on 19-May-2004 18:13:59 (#8188)
My first reaction was that the poster may be a casino spy looking for the games to alert. But, sadly, what you said is true LVBear, there simply are NO games that match the poster's criteria in Las Vegas.
--Mayor
Re: Not sure if you're kidding
Posted by Learning to count on 19-May-2004 18:55:31 (#8189)
Both these guys are amatuers listen up kid go to the Horshoe and have at it! Make sure you hit all the 6/5 single deck games and show em some black action spirit! Oh yeah make sure you play at the Las Vegas Club. I saw a guy playing with ten grand in december. There is black action all downtown!!!! Oh are you looking for some great beach front property cheap? There are acres of it all around the valley. If your lucky I can find you a London Bridge in Arizona if you in the market for one cheap!
Re: Good Downtown places in LV
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-May-2004 20:18:43 (#8190)
All sarcasm aside, it is unlikely you will get away with any black action in a SD game in Las Vegas. With the count you are using you can win with a minimal spread. Green you may be able to get away with for a while.
If you really want to play black, the SD game at the Barona outside San Diego is probably the best in the country. It has a $100 min so black action will obviously not be an issue. H17, DOA, DAS, LSR. For a 0.02% house advantage.
Re: Good Downtown places in LV
Posted by ladykiller on 20-May-2004 01:08:37 (#8192)
My bad you jerks. I play LV shoes all the time at the top casinos, but wanted to get away from them for a while; getting a little too friendly with the floor personnel. I knew there were good rules in downtown, just didn't know what kind of heat to expect. Thanks for the replies. As regards Barona, I can only flat bet there becuase I live down here and began counting there and learned my lessons witht that place. Anyone know of anyhwere else in the US with a single deck game like Barona with their minimal amount of heat?
>: ) *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 20-May-2004 11:11:01 (#8198)
Re: Good Downtown places in LV
Posted by BlackJackHack on 20-May-2004 20:20:28 (#8208)
>>Anyone know of anyhwere else in the US with a single deck game like Barona with their minimal amount of heat?
As a black player, you should know that nobody is going to identify a game on a public board as having a "minimal amount of heat." While it is perfectly appropriate to identify the rules, # of tables, etc., publicly disclosing low heat or heatless games is counterproductive. To get that sort of info, you just need to know people and exchange the info privately.
As for single deck games generally, the only place I know that offers single deck games and welcomes green and black action these days is Tunica, Mississippi. The games are certainly not heatless, though, so use proper discretion.
Re: Good Downtown places in LV
Posted by cphessy on 21-May-2004 03:27:11 (#8213)
i'm up for exchanging info
been to vegas twice in the last 3 mths
and i play low green to low black, mostly double deck for short sessions
anyone?
Re: Good Downtown places in LV
Posted by ladykiller on 21-May-2004 12:36:08 (#8221)
I got a couple places in Las Vegas for double deck, hit me back: ladykiller11982@yahoo.com
Re: Good Downtown places in LV
Posted by Brillo on 21-May-2004 22:38:57 (#8230)
You want to play single deck, try off strip joints like the Stations. Locals love SD so these places will have the game to compete for the local crowd. The tourist doesn't have a clue for the most part so that is why you see so much shoe on the strip. The tourist would rather play 8-deck shoe because they want the cards dealt face up and the game made as easy for them as possible.
Stations have no single deck, except one table *LINK*
Posted by LVBear584 on 24-May-2004 16:47:28 (#8281)
You want to play single deck, try off strip joints like the Stations
Fiesta Rancho, a Station property, has one table, usually unplayable due to overcrowding, and only playable at low stakes when not overcrowded. No other Station properties have single deck games.
Club Fortune and Railroad Pass, which are small grind joints in Henderson, each have one table of single deck, with poor pen. Club Fortune has Reno rules, making the poorly-penetrated game even worse.
Other than the downtown places I mentioned in the post linked below, that's all there is. Reno has single decks aplenty, and Tunica has some.
Re: Stations have no single deck, except one table
Posted by Brillo on 25-May-2004 17:09:51 (#8333)
Really? I was at Texas Station not too long ago and I'm virtually certain I saw an SD game. Are you including SF21 in your invetory of casinos with SD. I'm not calling you out and I am a fan of hallucinogens so perhaps I was seeing things, but next time you go to Fiesta Rancho you might want to stop by next door.
As far as only playing shoe in Vegas, Vegas has lots of DD. Not so much on the Strip where I work but I can assure you that the locals would not tolerate a stricly shoe casino.
I did not include Superfun or 6 to 5 ploppy ripoff
Posted by LVBear584 on 25-May-2004 17:49:51 (#8334)
Really? I was at Texas Station not too long ago and I'm virtually certain I saw an SD game. Are you including SF21 in your inventory of casinos with SD.
Texas Station has Superfun, but not single deck blackjack. No, I did not include Superfun, since it is a niche game that should not be played by a Las Vegas visitor unfamiliar with it. I obviously also did not include 6 to 5 ploppy rip-off as single deck blackjack.
As far as only playing shoe in Vegas, Vegas has lots of DD. Not so much on the Strip where I work but I can assure you that the locals would not tolerate a strictly shoe casino.
You are right about there being plenty of double decks, but most of the games are either so poorly penetrated as to make them worthless, or are so sweaty (Suncoast comes to mind) as to make them a waste of time for a visitor playing black chips, which was the level mentioned by the original poster.
By the way, Mr. Brillo, thank you for your polite, civil, and reasonable discussion in the tipping threads. You sound like one of the few dealers that I would respect. I suspect that if more dealers were like you, both sides of the table would be better off.
Re: I did not include Superfun or 6 to 5 ploppy ripoff
Posted by Brillo on 25-May-2004 18:02:42 (#8335)
I used to work at the Gold Coast and would recommend never playing at any Coast casino. I hard a horrible experience working there, having a sweating floor man up your ass at all times. Doing dice there is like being in boot camp. I can't believe they get the action that they do with all the staring and sweating. They get so worked up over losing a penny that I think it would be a real adventure to count there.
Re: Good Downtown places in LV
Posted by cphessy on 23-May-2004 07:22:22 (#8244)
yo lady
did u get my email?
respond plz. =)
i leave for vegas soon
Re: Good Downtown places in LV
Posted by deZerTomB on 23-May-2004 08:57:52 (#8248)
maybe try bj21 and buy the newsletter.
Trip Report (kind of long)
Posted by John on 20-May-2004 02:43:29 (#8194)
hey, got back from my trip tonight.
Good news. I made 92 green units in 4 days. Well, the fourth day, I didn't play much.
Actually, after the first two days, I was up 4,638 dollars. I was walking on air. I felt invincible. Then I crashed a little. The whole way I played absolutely the same way but just the last 2 days of my trip, I got different results.
On day 3, I lost 2400 dollars in about 3 hours. Keep in mind, I used to make 200 dollars a week !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I got in another argument with an Asian person. This time it was a guy. Not sure why the guy was picking on me but it might be because I look like I'm only 20 years old.
I approach this table and pull out 600 dollars. Ploppies scream "NO" !!!!!!!!!!! Hey, I don't even ask anymore, I just sit down. I was a gentlemen, though and waited for the shuffle. The asian guy next to me tells me that he wants to trade me seats. I say "okay". Then I joke about how I hope he isn't jinxing me. I start playing and then guy keeps mumbling things about doubling 12 v 10 's and other wierd things. I ignore it and play the way I always play. He just keeps saying stuff and basically blames me when the dealer gets 21. Nearly every hand, he was mumbling something. He looked like he was from Vietnam or Cambodia. I used to date a Japanese girl so I can tell Chinese, Japanese, and other ethnicities apart very well. Finally, I told him "I'm going to play my hand the way I want. I know you are trying to tell me how to play it but its not going to work." He shut up for 5 minutes then went back to it. I would have liked to have made a fortune in front of him but lost 1400. I can say, intelligently, that he was not the reason I lost money. I do think that if he lost 1400, he would have blamed me for it. I really think all of this behavior came down to ego. That is the first time anyone has ever wanted to trade seats with me. The crazy thing about it is he had no chair so now I have no chair to sit on. I have to go to another table to get a chair.
Summary
Day 1 ---- +73 units
Day 2 ---- +112 units
Day 3 ---- - 96 units
Day 4 ---- +5 units
== 94 units then subtract 2 units for food
I'm trying to keep accurate records of what happened where and the date.
Anyway, after losing 2400 dollars on day 3, I went back to the motel and watched "28 days later" or something. It was a scarey movie, and it was very good. Day 4, I was determined not to go home on a losing streak so I stopped in at another one and made 5 units. (I know about the "it doesn't matter when you stop" thing)
All in all, things are going great. I'm averaging +90 units a week so far.
What do you say to the question: Are you counting? (from a dealer) I thought about it, and haven't come up with anything spectacular. This happened by the way. Nothing came of it. I won't elaborate anymore. I didn't get the tap or shuffled up on the whole trip. Just an awkward moment that went nowhere. One pit boss welcomed me to come back to the casino. He said that I was welcome to play there 2 or 3 times a week if I like. He said this after a 68 unit win.
Re: Trip Report (kind of long)
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-May-2004 07:58:31 (#8196)
I'd says counting my chips? Yeah, I always do that so I kno when to stop playing...smile Nice report!!
Re: Trip Report (kind of long)
Posted by LEARNING TO COUNT on 20-May-2004 10:05:57 (#8197)
PLOPPIES CAN BE A$$HOLES. WHAT EVER RACE CREED OR NATIONALITY! SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT TRIP. LOVED YOUR REPORT.
AS FAR AS THE DEALER AND THE PIT BOSS I WOULD STAY AWAY FOR A FEW WEEKS AND OR PLAY DIFFEREMT SHIFTS. KEEP IT SHORT AND DONT BURN OUT THAT VENUE ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE DEALING A GOOD GAME!
ROB'S RETORT WAS VERY GOOD. I PLAN TO USE IT MYSELF.
THIS IS THE TYPE OF REPORTS WE NEED HERE STRAIGHT FROM THE TRENCHES! AS FAR AS THE PLOPPY; IF ITS A GOOD GAME IGNORE HIM.
PLAY THE VICTIM WHEN IT GETS BAD. IF THE GAME STARTS TO SUCK CALL THE PIT CRITTER AND ASK FOR RELIEF/HELP. BE NICE AND GET PITY FROM THE DEALER AND OTHER PLAYERS. THIS IS A GOOD TIME TO DROP A TIP TO THE DEALER.
I NEVER TIP BUT ONE TIME ON A CRUISE AT A LUCRATIVE GAME I TIPPED TEN BUCKS. I DID THIS BECAUSE THE A$$HOLE WAS A BIG DISTURBANCE TO ME AND THE TABLE AND I BEFRIENDED THE DELAER THIS WAY. THE DISTURBANCE ESCALATED AND I GOT MY CHANCE SO I CALLED THE PC OVER AND VOICED MY CONCERN ABOUT THIS JERS OBVIOUS RUDE AND THREATONING BEHAVIOR. HE WAS SOUNDLY THROWN OUT AND I EXTENEDED MY PLAY FOR SEVERAL HOURS WITHOUT WORRY OF COUNTER SUSPICION. THIS IS ABOUT THE ONLY TIME I WILL TIP.
Are you counting?
Posted by toddler on 20-May-2004 13:49:18 (#8202)
No, my name is John.
HAHAHAHAHA Excellent retort. *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 20-May-2004 17:19:25 (#8206)
Counting the cards?
Posted by Dog Hand on 21-May-2004 00:09:54 (#8211)
John,
On an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Data, Riker, and Worf are trapped in a casino. Data sits down at a BJ table and begins to play. After a few minutes, one of the other patrons asks him, "Are you counting the cards?" Data replies, "What would be the point? The number of cards does not vary."
You could always try that line, but it might only work if you have yellow contact lenses and gold face paint! ;-)
Dog Hand
Re: Trip Report (kind of long)
Posted by Cyrano on 21-May-2004 14:56:08 (#8225)
Question... if you were driving down the freeway, and suddenly a cop pulls you over and says "Looks like you were speeding.." would you reply "No, I wasn't taking any drugs..." ?? Probably not, right since you'd probably piss him off and throw away any chance to get off easy. You're pretty sure he's pretty sure you're a counter...
At that level, what's wrong with telling the truth? Just say something like "yeah, I bought this book ______, and decided to try it as a hobby... this is actually my second trip out but looks like it's not working though because i'm down for my 2 trips XXX amount..." if you're feeling a little devilish and want to continue the charade, you might want to say something like "does this shit really work? seems to me that if the authors really have a cash-cow, why would they publish it?"
This like actually got me a little sympathy a couple times. Then again, I play reds... I don't know if I'd use that line with greens (i'd probably use this line at megaresorts) and definitely not for blacks.
In any case, I don't think I'd use witty quips because they've probably heard it all before and will probably get annoyed (wouldn't you if you asked a serious question and felt that someone was trying to toy with you?).
I Would Never Admit to Reading any Books on BJ *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 21-May-2004 16:57:36 (#8227)
Re: I Would Never Admit to Reading any Books on BJ
Posted by John on 21-May-2004 23:13:57 (#8231)
The dealer wasn't completely serious about it. She asked me in the way that a girlfriend would ask you if you are checking out another girl.
players cards
Posted by John on 21-May-2004 23:22:34 (#8232)
Do most of you refuse players cards ? I've gotten some negative reactions when I tell them no. Some will totally give me the "20 questions" after I refuse one. They usually give me the "20 questions" when I am betting big. Actually, I should have asked this earlier since this is such a common problem for me. I've got some great excuses for this but sometimes the pit boss tries to bully me and then walk away and I am left unable to defend. On the computer at these places, am I "unknown 957394" or what? Is that how they do it? Maybe I need to buy Blackjack Attack.
Re: players cards
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 22-May-2004 09:11:42 (#8239)
The only decent excuse I can come up with is that; I have this little problem with gambling too much + my wife doesn't know I'm hear. I'm afraid if I get a card, she'll find out what I do when she's not watching me. (pause) This time though... I feel I'm going to have some good luck finally and beat you guys into submission. (along with raised eyebrows and a forced smile)
various player rating devices include...
Posted by gehrig on 23-May-2004 18:28:42 (#8258)
"i.d. refused" tags. better is that one should "play" that player evaluation sub-game as but another aspect of the greater, 21 game. just as there are multi-dimensional aspects to the house's play of the game, so must there be at the player level. the house uses several levels of supervision, of varying degrees of skill, occasionally software aids, and usually outsourced databases. the player's tools must be more than rote card counting with some predictable linkage to the "count". those who mechanically, predictably orchestrate wagers, and make obvious strategy variations based on a (at least, plus-minus) count, without an excellent act, are merely fodder for the game protection apparat. today's continuing player must play as though his game is center screen hawked by surveillance, and as though his player evaluation (and/or, player tracking) records are frequently examined. one player gets 86'd; the other gets some measure of comps.
New IQ score 167; average score is 131;
Posted by Learning to count on 20-May-2004 11:27:42 (#8199)
Well either I am at the top the the retard heap or maybe I am a degenerate gambler after all.
So was Ken Uston murdered or did he die from a heart attack due to cocaine use???
Who is INGA isnt she the computer used by thorp to compute BS????
ANd no if a cop asks you for a Id he still has to show that he has some sort of alarm/suspicion that has lead him to believe that you are a risk/danger. If the officer/agent has information that you are connected to some sort of crime/terrorist then he has a right to ID you. Even a arab dressed in a desert sheet walking happly down the street has rights. Now if he was carrying a RPG then he is going to be in a little bit of trouble.
Who is going to Vegas this summer to take some money???? I know I am!!!HEHEHEHEHEH
Re: New IQ score 167; average score is 131;
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 20-May-2004 12:43:39 (#8200)
"ANd no if a cop asks you for a Id he still has to show that he has some sort of alarm/suspicion that has lead him to believe that you are a risk/danger."
No. Wrong. Think about an INS agent. How would they ever catch any body?
INS AGENT: "Hello, Sir. I want to see your ID to make sure you aren't an illegal alien."
IDIOT: "Go to Hell, I'm a citizen you can't see my ID without suspicion that I'm a risk or danger"
INS AGENT: "Let me hit you over the head with this club, to explain to you the error in your thinking."
"If the officer/agent has information that you are connected to some sort of crime/terrorist then he has a right to ID you. "
Like I said, no information needed. Or do you think INS agents are practicing discrimination and can only check people's IDs based on Race or Skin Color? Ever been stopped at a Drunk Driving Police Check Point? What crime/terrorist information did they have you connected with when they asked for your ID? Tell those guys NO! they have no right to check your ID. (Instead of a club to the head, they will probably just use MACE).
"Even a arab dressed in a desert sheet walking happly down the street has rights."
I agree, he has rights. However one of those rights is NOT to refuse to be ID'd.
"Now if he was carrying a RPG then he is going to be in a little bit of trouble."
An RPG maybe. However, the carrying of weapons (concealed or in plain sight) varies by State to State. There is practically 50 answers to the above situation. With an Federal Firearms Class III license, even an RPG might be acceptable.
Re: New IQ score 167; average score is 131;
Posted by The Mayor on 20-May-2004 13:22:04 (#8201)
--
What you may not know is that you are telling an EXPERT in law enforcement your opinion on this question -- LTC, please be gentle 8-P
--Mayor
Re: New IQ score 167; average score is 131;
Posted by Learning to count on 20-May-2004 17:15:02 (#8204)
Hey listen up INS works the border. when they work the border they are allowed by law to ID every single person. And if they are working illegals domestically that means within our borders then they have to work under the same suspicious rule. They need info. BY the way the INS has bee sucked up into the new federal reordering they actaully dont exist as they did before. Your wrong sorry!
Re: New IQ score 167; average score is 131;
Posted by Learning to count on 20-May-2004 17:25:41 (#8207)
""An RPG maybe. However, the carrying of weapons (concealed or in plain sight) varies by State to State. There is practically 50 answers to the above situation. With an Federal Firearms Class III license, even an RPG might be acceptable.""
Just because the United states government allows you by a ffl permit to own a third class weapon to wit: tank, fifty cal, B52. You are still forced by this law to have said firearm contained in a way that mere exhibition is a pain in the ass! So if you think you can carry your MP5 under your jacket while you walk your dog you are sadly mistaken. Your right concealment of hand guns (not machine guns) is allowed state by state. Lets stick to Black Jack for now.
Re: New IQ score 167; average score is 131;
Posted by Inskipp on 20-May-2004 14:56:22 (#8203)
LTC may be an expert for now. But there is a case from Nevada, where a man was arrested for refusing to show ID. The US Supreme Court is reviewing it. So the rules may change.
Re: New IQ score 167; average score is 131;
Posted by Learning to count on 20-May-2004 17:18:32 (#8205)
The case I know about occured in Laughlin and the court upheld that the cops cant ask you for ID without cause. I will ID myself to the cops out of respect for their position. The casino security nazi's can go f*ck themselves. Can we talk about black jack now!
Re: New IQ score 167; average score is 131;
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 20-May-2004 23:42:49 (#8209)
Hey LTC - It's good to hear you swingin' with the boys again...and girl or two. You were too quiet for too long. Hope all is well. {:-)
Automatic
Posted by John on 20-May-2004 23:58:45 (#8210)
Question for you, if you feel that you can talk candidly. If not, that is okay. Or you can e-mail me at jjj93421@yahoo.com
Want to know how much you spread ? I am spreading 1 to 12 but have been thinking about increasing.
Also, how many days a week do you play and do you play every week ? I've been playing 3 to 4 days a week. When I get home, I kind of crash on my bed and sleep almost the whole day. Of course, I am moteling it, and you may be closer to the games.
Re: Automatic
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 21-May-2004 01:51:32 (#8212)
IMHO
1 to 12 red?
i.e. $5 to $60 or 10 to $120?
Don't worry about it.
I know that this seems like an awful lot of dough with a (<=10K) bankroll, but to a PB anywhere on earth, a hundred dollars as a top bet will only get you the most minimal heat at worst.
As far as how often you should play at a single place?, if it's a shitty, barely beatable game, then pull out all the stops and burn the joint to the ground.
If it's the best game you can get to on a regular basis because of logistical problems, then be respectful.
Now, Make sure you know the difference! And don't play the crappy game just because it's close!
-Felix
Re: Automatic
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-May-2004 05:02:32 (#8214)
I spread 1:12 green, or 1:20 if I can find a $10 table, spread to two hands when possible. Wong out if conditions are right.
Four to eight hours are my sessions and sometimes I get a motel, usually I drive home. A motel is usually worth it because it allows you to play a longer session without being too tired to drive. My work schedule is flexible so I can usually work 1-2 trips in a week. Recently I've been avoiding Friday/Saturday night play because of the crowd and the high table limits.
According to ...
Posted by John on 21-May-2004 12:41:24 (#8222)
another well-known blackjack mind, spreading to two hands is only beneficial when the count is around +5 for Hi-Lo. For this reason, I never spread to two hands.
Re: two hands
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-May-2004 13:48:50 (#8223)
The reason I spread my bet across two hands is to reduce variance. I try to play two hands whenever the EV is even slightly to the player's advantage. It also moves the counts around somewhat quicker. The third reason I do it is that it makes for a smoother transition to big bets- let my switching from one to two spots be the center of attention when I have small bets out, rather than big ones.
Re: two hands
Posted by John on 23-May-2004 02:58:16 (#8242)
Automatic,
Do you have player cards at most of the places you play at? I have been getting negative reactions from pit bosses when I refuse. I need some help in this matter since I have another trip coming up. Should I be getting a players card ?
Re: player cards
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-May-2004 10:52:28 (#8253)
Yes, get one. Not having one will bring more heat on you than having one ever could. Plus, you get comps, and comps are part of your pay.
Do NOT give them your real Social Security number if they ask for it. They have no way of checking and the law guarantees your right to not have to give this number to anyone but the federal government. The format for SS numbers is detailed on the net so look it up and make up an apparently valid one for yourself ahead of time.
Some people are advocates of getting fake ID for getting a player's card. This has some advantages and I might one day do this. Just be aware of the legal ramifications of having fake ID, especially in this age of terrorism. If you do this, get a bunch of players cards with it, keep it all in a separate wallet that you use for absolutely nothing else but playing, that way if you ever get busted you'll have pretty solid proof that you only used this ID for protecting your privacy at casinos.
"""NOVELTY"""ID *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 23-May-2004 21:53:03 (#8263)
Upper Peninsula of Michigan games
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-May-2004 05:06:10 (#8215)
According to CBJN, there is a reasonably high density of desirable games on the UP of Michigan. That's a reasonably easy trip for me so I'm considering a raid. Anybody ever play there? Are they tolerant?
Re: Upper Peninsula of Michigan games
Posted by John on 21-May-2004 23:25:20 (#8233)
On the upper peninsula? Do you mean around the Chicago area ?
Re: Upper Peninsula of Michigan games
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-May-2004 01:01:46 (#8236)
No... I mean around the Marquette and Sault Ste. Marie area. Also a few in the northern part of mainland Michigan, right under the UP. I counted 5-6 places I could drive to in a long weekend.
Looks like they have some 4/1 shoe games with very desirable rules. Although it looks like most of them are run by the same people, so if I get booted from one, I'll be booted from them all. Just wondering how the heat is up there.
Re: Upper Peninsula of Michigan games
Posted by MrPill on 29-May-2004 18:19:50 (#8439)
"Looks like they have some 4/1 shoe games with very desirable rules."
I'm not sure what a 4/1 shoe game is but I was just up there last week. I went to two casinos in the UP (Sault & Ignace) and they did have a good 6 deck shoe with very favorable rules. (S17 DA2 DAS DSA LS house edge 0.223%) and also a hand dealt double deck with lesser rules (S17 D10&11, LS).
Also stopped at Turtle Creek and they no longer have double deck and do not offer LS on the 6 deck game any longer.
Best dealer line of the weekend on double deck: "Now don't you guys take too many hits or I'll run out of cards!"
It was a good weekend!
Pill
Hello Mr. Pill and wife...
Posted by Ouchez on 01-Jun-2004 22:15:46 (#8506)
Loose lips sink ships.
:)
Glad you had a good time.
No but...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-May-2004 11:22:17 (#8273)
... if you happen trek out that way, please fill us in. I have been meaning to hit that market myself. As you say, CBJN reports unusually good games for the midwest, but they have report dates that are 5 months to a year(or more) old as of the April issue. I wonder to what extent they are still available?
thanks,
-Felix
Forget about it!
Posted by Ouchez on 01-Jun-2004 22:27:09 (#8507)
Mr. pill and wife burnt them all out!
They would be intolerant of anyone who refers to a "trip" as a "raid". The last players that tried that ended up in bad shape.
Accidental joke at the Chess Club
Posted by The Mayor on 21-May-2004 10:11:20 (#8216)
I was at the local Chess Club yesterday, helping them organize a tournament. One of the tournament sponsors asked me for my card. I keep my business cards in a designated part of my wallet. So I took out my wallet, reached into that section and pulled out my business card and handed it to him. It was the 5 of Spades! I have no idea how a playing card got in there, but it was really funny when it happened. Now I think I'll put a few more playing cards in there, and write my name on them 8-)
--Mayor
Re: Accidental joke at the Chess Club
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-May-2004 10:44:37 (#8217)
Whatever you do, do NOT let such incidents occur at the blackjack table! Posession of a 5 of Spades in a pitch game might increase the heat slightly.
Re: Accidental joke at the Chess Club
Posted by Sonny on 21-May-2004 11:07:12 (#8218)
With a five removed, your wallet should become much more valuable. According to Thorp, the ratio of fives to $10s should put your wallet well into the positive EV zone!
Unfortunately, I have found that my wallet is often several standard deviations below my expectation.
-Sonny-
Re: Accidental joke at the Chess Club
Posted by Victoria on 21-May-2004 11:23:06 (#8219)
Mayor, we all know that removing 5's from the deck should increase your EV but you need to work on a better system for hiding the evidence.
Victoria
Re: Accidental joke at the Chess Club
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-May-2004 12:00:16 (#8220)
Your card is as big as a playing card? Must be made in TEXAS! ;> I'd figure your skilled fingers would be able to tell the diff between the two. Can you cut the deck X from the bottom or not? ;>
Your Wife is Wondering???........
Posted by phantom007 on 22-May-2004 00:31:59 (#8235)
Why in the Hell this "SMALL" Trojan Condom is shoved between the cards of your "PRACTICE DECK". Especially since you just got back from LV with Neg. UNITS! And further, SHE cannot find that #5 card.
GRINNING FROM EAR-TO-EAR!
Sincerely,
T#tty-Bar PRO, oops, I mean,
phantom007.
There's a precedent
Posted by Seeker on 23-May-2004 15:36:50 (#8256)
I once knew an employee of the American Contract Bridge League whose business card mimicked a playing card -- same size, shape, plastic coating, and colored pattern on the back. He liked to say, "I have a card," and pull an apparent playing card from his wallet. Then he would flip it over to reveal it was his business card.
It would be an appropriate gag for you, too, Mayor. You should see about getting some printed up.
lima peru (other S American blackjack
Posted by jason on 21-May-2004 14:05:56 (#8224)
anyone know about the games in peru or other south american blackjack?
thanks
228 365 9058
TUNICA .....
Posted by phantom007 on 22-May-2004 00:18:00 (#8234)
IS SOUTH AMERICAN BJ!
Until recently GREAT, conditions are deteriorating rapidly. Ball-Me's recently replaced their beatable SD with 6:5, pen. at Harrah-shoe's DD has dropped to that of a SD game, i.e., 50%, etc., etc.
Did meet a GS PC being transferred to Brazil, Argentina, or somewhere down there. He was happy about it! Big promotion, raise, etc.
Sorry, but I cannot give you an INTELLIGENT and APPROPRIATE answer to your post.
phantom007.
Re: Biloxi is further south,,,
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-May-2004 01:03:01 (#8237)
And from CBJN it looks like they might have some better games down there.
AGREE, but for ME...............
Posted by phantom007 on 22-May-2004 01:06:36 (#8238)
Tunica is only a 6-BEER drive.............the Coast would be at least 12-16!
GRIN!
phantom007.
Re: lima peru (other S American blackjack
Posted by The Mayor on 22-May-2004 11:03:40 (#8240)
There are some very good games down in S. America, at least that is what I've been told -- I've never been there. Likewise for Eastern Europe.
I doubt any of the really good games will be posted or commented on publically.
I don't want to say anything more 8-)
Looking for an article
Posted by ladykiller on 22-May-2004 15:28:18 (#8241)
I have kept in touch with a table games supervisor at a big casino in California, he has given me advice in the past. He recently told me to try to find an article in Global Gaming Business; Dec 2003, pg 23. The article is on a few casinos with a different kind of philosophy as regards card counters; taking a more leniant approach. Problem: u have to be a subscriber to look up the archived articles, which costs money. Wondering if anyone has access to it...
tokes
Posted by aceking29 on 23-May-2004 03:34:25 (#8243)
just starting to play bj for other than "recreation".
question about toking dealers.in the 3 casinos i play in locally they offer good condition double deck and one offers a fair rule single deck game.doesn't it make sense to get the penetration that we need to tip the dealer .there are several that i have seen when being tipped they go as deep as %70 and when not being tipped will cut it at as little as %40.my question i guess is as important as pen is should i tip more and more frequently to keep the pen good?
Re: tokes
Posted by Learning to count on 23-May-2004 07:27:16 (#8245)
Dont toke! Seems like the dealers are training you to toke. Good pen comes just keep looking. Toking hurts the EV!
Re: tokes
Posted by Strider on 23-May-2004 08:33:20 (#8246)
Please tip your dealers, they are performing you a service and rely on tokes to earn a decent wage. Yes it will hurt your EV but that is not a good reason. Just as one should tip your waiter or waitress, the dealer should not be overlooked. Unless they are rude or extremly unpleasent there really is no excuse. If you don't tip you are being cheap and greedy. Think about all the ploppies and drunks dealers have to deal with (no pun intended). As an advantage player you can certainly afford to be better than the ploppies who are always chasing their last lose with their superstitious beliefs and illogical claims.
the only reason to toke...
Posted by gehrig on 23-May-2004 18:11:57 (#8257)
is to enforce your act. act permits play during game protection/pitstiff and surveillance eyeballing. proper placement of the toke-bet has collateral bennies. occasionally one may play the dealer for deeper pen, though that acknowledges that the player is counting... to all observers besides the dealer. {wouldn't any of you "advantage" players spot that move ?}. further discussion of toke manipulation is unwarranted in an open forum. no sense in discarding a working move.
Dealers are "performing a service"?
Posted by LVBear584 on 23-May-2004 20:23:51 (#8261)
Please tip your dealers, they are performing you a service and rely on tokes to earn a decent wage.
What "service" is a dealer performing that merits tipping? Not yelling "checks play" as loudly as usual?
I agree with Gehrig. Except in rare instances, tipping should only be done when it is a necessary part of your act. Most of the time, tipping a dealer is just throwing your money in the trash. Take the money you thought about handing over to dealers and give it to charity instead.
Yes, Dealers are performing a service.
Posted by Strider on 24-May-2004 07:41:57 (#8267)
Dealers are performing a service. The casino industry is a service industry. The casino industry does not produce any tangable good. They offer a service. They serve the players by smiling, making small talk, and by dealing. Dealers have to generally be pleasent and kind. They have to overlook alot of crap directed at them. I'm not the only counter who believes that dealers should be tipped. The Mayor does as well. You should read his essay on tipping on this site. Your sarcasm aside, the dealer is only doing his job by yelling "checks play." He or she has to make sure the pit is aware about what's going on at their game. Many dealer's are paid minimum wage by the casino and only earn a decent wage because of tokes. Try to put yourself in another person's shoes sometimes, it may make you a little more symphathetic.
Re: Yes, Dealers are performing a service.
Posted by Learning to count on 24-May-2004 09:02:10 (#8268)
Listen, what service do you get from a dealer except him taking your money? The LV casino machine offers sh!te for games. They are trying to convince the public that gambling offers entertainment. This is a bunch of of marketing Bullsh!t if not a wholesale lie.
Your premises that the dealers are working and deserve the tip is sh!t. First of all the csino's pay sh!t for wages. It was just recently the casino slave labor force got a union. The dealers know this and they take the job any way believing the hype that if the right degenerate billionaire gambler comes along he will tip them a milllion for thier fancy way of riffling the cards. Dealing is a dumb way to make money.
Second waiters and waitresses make a good living and they at least feed us. In other words there is a benifit to spending money with them. This is economics 101.
So if you get off on losing your money and paying to lose it by tipping have at it. This crap of feeling sorry for the dealers is stupid. If ya wanna tip go ahead its your money. I dont tip! I wanna win and keep my hard earned profits!
Or maybe I am confusing you with Card counters and Gamblers!
PS I seem to remember Grosjean's play being tipped off by a dealer to the Pit Critter who then alerted upstairs. Grosjean was roughed up, falsely arrested, and lost money due to theft. Thier are many stories of such abuse of Professional card counters. They were picked out by yes you guessed it the DEALER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh yeah the Mayor does not tip. If he did it was minimal a buck or two to look like he was! LV bear never tips! NOR DO I!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Yes, Dealers are performing a service.
Posted by BlackJackHack on 24-May-2004 11:38:54 (#8274)
Clearly, reasonable people can disagree about this issue. IMHO, the dealers are not performing a service, and tipping only makes economic sense when it helps your act or your play. On the other hand, they are paid a very low wage and do rely on tips to make a living - you can make a valid ethical argument that they should be tipped.
Of course, the real villain in this scheme is the casino. Why don't they just pay the dealers a living wage and remove the tip cup? Not only do they rape their customers at the tables, but they essentially insist that the customers pay the dealers! The dealers, then, are left having to beg and grovel for living from the customers. The house makes out very well from this arrangement, as the customers (in addition to losing at the tables) have to pay the dealers. Advantage: house. Disadvantage: dealers and customers.
Re: Yes, Dealers are performing a service.
Posted by Brillo on 24-May-2004 15:14:53 (#8277)
The casinos are not going to do this. They fight tooth and nail to stop the dealers from unionizing yet they allow the cocktail waitresses, bartenders and cooks a union.
Learning to Count makes a point. He is out to make money. And so am I. I work at a very good casino so I do pretty well, but as a dice dealer, I know that the snapper tables are the cash cow. This is the only game that consistently brings in the money. So, when I am subjected to snapper land, I'll do what I can to keep the stiffs from occupying space. I can't do anything about the superstitious stiffs, but I can do something about the counting stiffs.
I think casinos routinely violate the civil rights of counters and some brilliant legal team should someday be able to win a lawsuit and take them for a bundle. They shouldn't have their cake and eat it too; they either stop discriminating or do away with the game completely.
Strider can count at my table all day long. Learning to Count will be regulated to the land of the $10 flat bet if not the asphalt pavement. If he feels the dealers are out to get him it's entirely his own fault. It's not his counting ability, it's his attitude that's going to do him in. And if you can't distinguish between a regular dealer looking make a toke, or in regards to a counter, a bribe, and a narc dealer looking to make floor, well, then this probably isn't the sort of hobby that you should be pursuing.
Re: Good post Brillo
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-May-2004 18:54:03 (#8283)
You've made the point I'm trying to- that a dealer can get rid of you any time he wants, and that he won't want to get rid of someone who tokes whether he is counting or not. It's a normal human reaction; you see me making money, and you're not making any money yourself, and you're going to be resentful. I'm sure you can understand why a guy and even a counter having a losing night won't be toking, but if he also has a prickish attitude that won't be so forgivable. Me, I toke everyone, even the men's room attendant, because I want to make friends and not enemies of every person in that establishment.
In the places where I play tokes are collected by the house and split up among the dealers. I hear they make about $70K a year and here in the East dealer school is free. Now most of the floor people who rate your play for comp points are also dealers sometimes, so they get a piece of the tokes. And when a player leaves, I'll hear the floor guy ask the dealer if the guy was toking before he rates him. That is quite a racket for both players and dealers- give a toke and get it all back and then some on your player's card.
Re: Yes, Dealers are performing a service.
Posted by Learning to count on 24-May-2004 21:00:31 (#8287)
"Strider can count at my table all day long. Learning to Count will be regulated to the land of the $10 flat bet if not the asphalt pavement. If he feels the dealers are out to get him it's entirely his own fault. It's not his counting ability, it's his attitude that's going to do him in. And if you can't distinguish between a regular dealer looking make a toke, or in regards to a counter, a bribe, and a narc dealer looking to make floor, well, then this probably isn't the sort of hobby that you should be pursuing."
This is the typical vice of the casino corporate mentality: Greed. The games that are there are supposed to be a game of chance. We as card counters do nothing to change the game. We dont cheat. The casinos purvey lies about thier games of theft. We are able to beat thier game and win. So we are the persecuted. The dealer is not the victim here. The offered philosphy here is that we are wrong if we dont tip and we should be tossed out on the street. Whew and you can actually with good conscience say that you can deny a person the right to play a game that is sanctioned by the Government of the people of the state of Nevada because they can beat the game legally. What a monopoly! Dealers are out to get anyone who beats the game. Hobbies are fun. Taking the casino's money is by far the best experience. Good luck in catching me or my peers.
Re: Yes, Dealers are performing a service.
Posted by Victoria on 25-May-2004 14:03:45 (#8324)
To Brillo
You made some good points. The one that hit me is the one about the ambitious dealer looking to make floor. My method of playing is friendly with occassional but small tokes. You can toke a little for cover and toke a little to get that minority dealer who can figure out you are counting to not care. The dealer I fear is the one looking to move up. First you need to know who he is and then just move on because no sane counter would try to toke this dealer into semi partnership. His soul belongs to the corporation.
To the non toking pros
In some ways this conversation is apples and oranages in my opinion.
A pro I think travels to many different casinos. His goal hit them as hard and as fast as possible and get out before being thrown out and then move on to the next place. Longevity is only important in that there is some other place to go and play but totally unimportant in returning to the same place over and over again. So to you a toke has no positive value.
A recreational player (I am lucky if I get 150 hours in a year) especially with the advent of local Indian casinos generally wants to continue playing for as long as possible in the same place. If you have a place only an hour drive with decent rules and penetration and not toking might get you tossed spreading $25-$300, is not toking going to improve your EV instead if the alternative is a 4 hour drive or flight to Vegas and reducing your yearly hours to less than 75? The same place many of the dealers also work one or two days a week in the pit, so some may know I count but all know that if I am winning, I will toke a little. On a good day for the record I am probably toking $5 or less per hour. Toke hustling dealers though still get nothing from me.
Now when I go to Vegas I will play the same way in the casino that comps my room and food, but when I cross the street I may not care because I have no plan to return soon and may play more like a pro.
Victoria
When you're a known "regular" player, you may be forced to tip
Posted by LVBear584 on 25-May-2004 14:30:00 (#8328)
A recreational player (I am lucky if I get 150 hours in a year) especially with the advent of local Indian casinos generally wants to continue playing for as long as possible in the same place.
Yes. In this situation you may be forced to tip to keep the dubious welcome mat out. It is an unfortunate reality of your situation. This is why I wrote, in the "Dealers are overpaid" post above:
<u>Other than at the times when tipping buys cover and/or longevity,</u> it's just another business expense that can be cut out.
You are buying longevity. Just keep careful track of what the actual cost of your purchase is. You may find that you're tipping away more of your EV than you realize. If not, and it buys you longevity that you would otherwise not have, there is nothing wrong with it. It's an individual situation.
His goal hit them as hard and as fast as possible and get out before being thrown out and then move on to the next place. Longevity is only important in that there is some other place to go and play but totally unimportant in returning to the same place over and over again. So to you a toke has no positive value.
I am a "slash and burn" type player, who plays aggressively and doesn't feed at the same trough too often, so tipping has little or no value for me. I endure the backoffs and harassment as it comes, and move on, not taking it personally. Victoria's situation is quite different.
The dealer I fear is the one looking to move up. First you need to know who he is and then just move on because no sane counter would try to toke this dealer into semi partnership. His soul belongs to the corporation.
Absolutely right.
"...the real villain in this scheme is the casino"
Posted by LVBear584 on 24-May-2004 15:45:51 (#8280)
Of course, the real villain in this scheme is the casino. Why don't they just pay the dealers a living wage and remove the tip cup? Not only do they rape their customers at the tables, but they essentially insist that the customers pay the dealers! The dealers, then, are left having to beg and grovel for living from the customers. The house makes out very well from this arrangement, as the customers (in addition to losing at the tables) have to pay the dealers. Advantage: house. Disadvantage: dealers and customers.
Well said. Worth repeating.
Dealers are overpaid
Posted by LVBear584 on 24-May-2004 15:36:43 (#8279)
Try to put yourself in another person's shoes sometimes, it may make you a little more symphathetic.
Dealers are overpaid. At minimum wage, with the excessive tipping most ploppies engage in, their actual wage is around $12.00 per hour in the worst dumps ($25,000.00 per year), and around $25.00 - $30.00 per hour at the carpet joints ($50,000.00 - $60,000.00 per year)
The high-end dealers make more than most police officers, nurses, or teachers make. Yet the dealer has a job that requires no formal education, no real skills, and only a few weeks of training. Many dealers barely speak English, and many have minimal or NO "people skills."
Yet people line up to take dealer jobs. Why? Because dealing is a better job than they are able to find elsewhere. There are a few exceptions, particularly bright young people who may be dealers for a short time while going to school or getting ready to embark on other careers, but need immediate employment.
Granted, it's an unpleasant environment and miserable work, frequently dealing with disrespectful, hostile, and sometimes drunken members of the public. I doubt if I, personally, would last a single day as a dealer. But that doesn't take away the fact that there is no dealer shortage anywhere that I'm aware of. So the job must not be that bad for those willing to do it.
The shameful practice of most casinos mandating that dealers pool their tips further justifies not tipping., in my opinion. Maybe I'm "unsympathteic," or maybe I'm just "looking out for number one." I do tip generously those who provide a service to me, in positions where tipping is normal and customary. But I don't tip a plumber, electrician, or auto mechanic. Do you tip them? They certainly provide a service -- why don't they deserve tips, but a dealer does?
In thousands of hours in casinos, I can think of only a handful of times when dealers went out of their way to provide me with any quantifiably valuable "service" that should earn them tips -- i.e., better pen, not loudly shouting "checks play," dealing as quickly as they were able, etc. Most dealers are on auto-pilot, just normal working people trying to get through their routine workday. Very few know anything about advantage play, and fewer still would recognize my offering some meager tokes as a subtle request for the better playing conditions that are within their power to dispense.
I agree that for the ploppy, who is in the casino to be "entertained," and is willing to lose his or her money for the dubious "entertainment value" they receive, the people skills of the dealer may add value to their "entertainment experience." Such a person should, and almost always does, tip the dealer. They are receiving a "service" from the dealer, in that their time at the table is more pleasant. Ploppies are usually content to sit there until they lose all their money, anyway, so I'd rather the dealer gets some than the casino owner. But, just as I won't play a casino game with negative EV, I won't just give away my money for no reason.
For a skilled player who is in a casino simply to make money, and not for any other reason, tipping is a waste, except for the instances that it provides cover and/or longevity. I don't care if the dealer is pleasant or not. In fact, my favorite type of dealer is one who deals very quickly, and never says a word -- a deaf mute would be the perfect dealer. No useless, idle chitchat, no nosy questions, nothing. Just the cards flying as fast as possible, to maximize my hands-per-hour.
Other than at the times when tipping buys cover and/or longevity, it's just another business expense that can be cut out. Would you pay a higher prices for gasoline than you have to, because the gas station cashier is "pleasant"? Would you pay higher prices for any commodity product than you have to? Needlessly giving away a portion of your profit is the same thing. It directly affects your bottom line. I just don't see the point in deliberately lowering my profit for no reason.
POST OF THE MONTH!!! LVBEAR!!!!! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 24-May-2004 21:07:47 (#8289)
Re: Dealers are overpaid
Posted by Brillo on 24-May-2004 21:59:15 (#8293)
So dealers at the El Cortez, Golden Gate, Western, Gold Spike, Barcelona, etc., places I would characterize as the worst dumps in Vegas make $25,000 per year? Hardly. Try minimum wage and perhaps $20.00 in the toke envelope at the end of the day. There is hardly any guarantee they will make that much money at the Plaza, LVC or Tuscany.
As far as not speaking English, yes there are a lot that cannot and they spend their entire careers in a dump. But if you are playing at the Rio or Venetian, I can pretty much guarantee that the dealer will be able to carry on a conversation with you.
Dear Brillo and other dealers.
Posted by Learning to count on 25-May-2004 07:58:32 (#8305)
Brillo why did you become a dealer? Are you paying for medical school or did you lose interest in finishng your PHD?????
If a person chooses to become a dealer it is his own choice. The law does not say we have to tip any dealer be he in the EL cortez or the Venetian. The law does say we do have the right to play Blackjack and if we can beat the house edge by pure mental endeavors then there is nothing the casino or the dealer can do to stop us from counting cards.
The dealer who in his anger of not being tipped changes the game to make it unplayable is in essence subjectivily cheating. In fact Uston in his case in New Jersey won by showing that the casino could not stop the player from playing just because he was a counter. He showed that the casino could not throw out the Card Counter. Throwing the player out is the same intent as making the game unplayable.
In effect if his arguement was taken farther as he sought he could have stopped the casino from making any game changes to the rules of how the game is dealt and played; to wit; half shoing, adding decks, etc. Uston was able to level the playing field in gambling. His case showed the greed in gaming today. This greed has created more games that masturbate the ego and not allow the filling of the wallet of the player who is legally skilled. All the while the casino runs away with the profits. Remember that the wages of the dealer is nothng compared to the profits of the casino. Even the state's take is miniscule compared to what the casino is making. The average dealer is working in an industry that gives or produces nothing for the country. Sure you get to buy a new car while 20 others lose thier home because the mortgage payment went into the tip jar. Your arguement of tipping the dealer so he can feed his family is lame!
If your going to offer games of chance leave the chance in! As far as tipping while counting cards. When you win you must also keep the overhead down that means no tipping. This idea of "you must tip the dealer" is subjective and has no foundations. Any way tipping to get the dealer to cooperate and deal a game that will make a card counters life easy "may" be violating the law that states about collusion between the casino worker and patron? So tipping the dealer because he is dealing deep or not calling checks play is bordering a criminal law. This is not subjective this is a criminal act. The intent is to change the game in behalf of the player so he can win. So you stay on your side of the table and I will stay on mine.
By the way where do you work any way. From the sound of your attitude you may deliver a good game if I tipped you! Let me know and I will play on your shift. I would tip you if I knew you would give me a good game. Hey I am an advantage player and if I knew you would cooperate for a tip well that is an advantage for me. A couple of bucks here and there would go far! See you in the green felt jungle! LTC : )
Re: Dear Brillo and other dealers.
Posted by Brillo on 25-May-2004 11:48:06 (#8313)
I said before that I work at a very good casino and make more money here than I would teaching English. I also enjoy the job more; I enjoy being surrounded by beautiful women and unlike most dealers, I love dealing with drunks and crazy people.
I may be stupid for dealing but are you all that smart for sitting down and playing? Judging from the popularity of 6:5, I would imagine that the games are only going to get worse. The casinos do not offer the game to for you to make money. More advice to you would be to spread yourself thin between the casinos and to cut up the player card.
Re: Dealers are overpaid
Posted by aceking29 on 24-May-2004 22:52:28 (#8294)
"But I don't tip a plumber, electrician, or auto mechanic. Do you tip them? They certainly provide a service -- why don't they deserve tips, but a dealer does?"lvbear are you that freakin stupid to post that as a question?in order plumber $45/hour,electrician$55/hour,and auto mechanic up to $75/hr.i dont need to write more i hope!
Re: Dealers are overpaid
Posted by Learning to count on 25-May-2004 07:25:38 (#8304)
So what you are saying is that you believe that it is alright to play a game that is so bad that you do not have a chance at winning or at least have enough money to take a cab home. Then to double the pain you tip the trained monkey who grabbed your money and stuck in his tin box! This is gambling not gaming as they call it now. Your tipping your vice. Whew we have a lot of intelligence flowing here.
Re: Dealers are overpaid
Posted by aceking29 on 25-May-2004 13:24:45 (#8318)
there is some intelligence here for sure but sure it isnt flowing out of YOU!
Re: Dealers are my BEST friends.
Posted by Tom on 25-May-2004 05:02:33 (#8301)
Yeah,that's right, my best friends indeed.
I've read your post in the past about not tipping and so forth but disagree. There is nothing worse than pissing off a bunch of dealers by being known to never tip. And yes this can piss them off. Bear,you've been known to give us card counters on the internet a bad rap by having a reputation as tighwads who never tip.
Speak for yourself,not I.
Re: Dealers are my BEST friends.
Posted by Learning to count on 25-May-2004 07:19:29 (#8303)
Obviously your a ploppy!
Bottom line.....
Posted by dogman on 25-May-2004 12:09:10 (#8315)
is that toking almost never aids the AP in extracting money from the casinos.
In this forum on cardcounting AP we would be well served to remember this.
For the record, I never tip.
Mr. Pink
Posted by Hal Jordan on 25-May-2004 19:35:56 (#8338)
Love your post! It reminds me of Mr. Pinks explanation for refusing to tip the waitress in Reservoir Dogs. I hate the idea of obligatory tips in any form. Tips should only be given when someone goes above and beyond, but even then I can't see tipping in excess. Dealers can make their tips off of the ploppies, and we can leave the table when we have a toke hustler for a dealer. Souds like a very simple relationship.
HJ
Re: Mr. Pink
Posted by aceking29 on 31-May-2004 17:55:13 (#8463)
my sentiments exactly.good luck finding a game.....
Re: tokes
Posted by deZerTomB on 23-May-2004 08:52:06 (#8247)
a toke every shuffle would really cut into your ev. whatever advantage you get counting, you're giving away.
I only toke occasionally as it gives me the munchies.
Re: tokes
Posted by Victoria on 23-May-2004 10:35:55 (#8250)
I toke and have gotten a little heat from some of the pros about it, but I toke very little and at places that I continue to return to only.
The thing is, if playing SD or DD, you can not toke every shuffle or even nearly every shuffle to get penetration unless you can get them to deal down to perhaps the last 10 cards or something like that. It is just too many tokes per hour.
The occassional one or two white chips (I spread $25-$250 generally) is enough in my opinion to get the dealer to not dislike you and perhaps not go to the pit when relieved and say watch that woman on BJ14, I think she counts.
Toking for penetration is only logical when you believe the dealer knows you count and think he can be recruited to help you. Otherwise if you toke every shuffle or so, why not reduce penetration, shuffle more often and perhaps get more tokes.
Victoria
Re: clocking tokes to BJ's
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-May-2004 14:06:45 (#8255)
You can toke a percentage of your EV simply by toking on BJ's. This is something that ploppies do so you will blend right in. Let's say you decide to toke 10% of EV, and your EV is $20/hr. Being you will get a BJ every 21 hands or so, just toke $1 every other BJ. On good nights where you are getting your BJ's you will not miss the money, and on losing nights you probably won't be getting too many BJ's but when you are losing you're not expected to toke. You play the same spread that I do and I've found toking $1.50 per BJ works out just right.
More importantly, once the dealer realizes you are toking consistently on BJ's he will deal faster, so that you get more BJ's, and of course you EV goes up proportionally.
Re: tokes
Posted by Tom on 25-May-2004 04:44:41 (#8300)
These so called pros you talk about that say "dont toke,it cuts EV!!" and so forth are probably not pros anyway. If someone has an average ev of 4 bucks an hour then toking a few bucks an hour might not be a good idea,but do you really think this is advice of a pro!? The way I look at it,is any, ahem'..self proclaimed PRO who cant afford to tip a few bucks, cant afford to gamble. There is nothing worse than having a reputation at casinos you frequent as being known as a tightwad who never tips,not I.
Re: tokes
Posted by Learning to count on 25-May-2004 08:02:08 (#8306)
I will amend my beliefs on not toking. Tokes do hurt the EV. SO I dont toke. If I did find a dealer who would deal an excellent game for a few measily tokens of affection the so be it I will toke em! Hey I look for the advantage! LTC
Re: tokes
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-May-2004 10:41:54 (#8251)
Toke. There are all kinds of reasons for it. One is that dealers rely on tokes for their pay and all who work deserve to be paid. It even says so in the Bible, this is not a new concept. The second is penetration and speed. All you need is to get a little bit increase in pen or speed of the game to make any reasonable toke worth it, many times over. You can toke 10% of your EV and easily get a dealer to speed up by 20%, thus getting a 100% advantage on your toke. If you can get a little extra pen too you will leverage it much more. You'd have to be crazy not to take an advantage play like that.
The third is that there are enough counters out there saying "Don't toke!" that not toking has become a counter tell. A dealer told me about this.
I used to believe that, too
Posted by LVBear584 on 23-May-2004 20:33:40 (#8262)
The second is penetration and speed.
Years ago, as a then-novice advantage player, I believed that the dealer would understand why I was tipping, and would therefore deal a better game. I soon came to realize that the vast majority of dealers are on auto-pilot, just putting in their eight hours to collect their paycheck. Most dealers know very little and care very little about advantage play, penetration, and game speed. Most don't even realize WHY you are toking them. They have no idea that you would like them to deal deeper and faster. While there are exceptions, they are few and far between.
Re: I used to believe that, too
Posted by Brillo on 24-May-2004 00:14:08 (#8265)
You are correct about most dealers not having a clue. But if you run into one that does, you might have to find a new place to play. Dealers view you the same way you view them: as dead weight. They want to move you off their table as quickly as possible. And why wouldn't they turn you into the pit when they can ensure that you will never occupy the space of a possible toker, and earn some brownie points as well?
Again, dealers who have a clue could care less if you count cards; in fact, they want you to count them if it means more revenue for them.
In my experience, counters are not too hard to spot. They just don't blend in well with the average player, who is there to have fun, get drunk, socialize, and isn't all that concerned about how a $1 or $2 toke every 1/2 hour might jeopardize their daily 'earnings.'
Re: I used to believe that, too
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-May-2004 10:18:52 (#8272)
'In my experience, counters are not too hard to spot. They just don't blend in well with the average player, who is there to have fun, get drunk, socialize, and isn't all that concerned about how a $1 or $2 toke every 1/2 hour might jeopardize their daily 'earnings.'"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then that makes it so easy! Just have fun, drink, socialize, and occasionally toke. If you sit there looking and acting like the old guy clipping the coupons out of the newspaper at the library, you're going to get busted. Every time I've been busted (which hasn't been often) it's been when I wasn't partying with the other players at the table.
Re: I used to believe that, too
Posted by Brillo on 24-May-2004 14:49:51 (#8276)
Well...yes. Sip a beer, whistle at the cocktail waitress perhaps, whine about your cards, act like you're really pondering over that erratic move, give the other players a high five or something. Basically, act like your basic black-jack-playing jackoff.
I've been told that the profile for a counter is a young white male in a baseball cap so I'm not so sure about the old man clipping coupons part.
You think a player should toke over $6,000.00 per year?
Posted by LVBear584 on 24-May-2004 18:56:02 (#8284)
...isn't all that concerned about how a $1 or $2 toke every 1/2 hour might jeopardize their daily 'earnings.'
A $2.00 toke "every 1/2 hour" is <u>$6,336.00 per year</u> for a player who puts in a lot of hours.
($2 every 1/2 hour = $4 per hour x average 6 hours per day x 22 days per month x 12 months.)
And most dealers think a player is cheap when toking "only" $2.00.
Re: You think a player should toke over $6,000.00 per year?
Posted by Learning to count on 24-May-2004 21:05:50 (#8288)
The problemis that we are arguing with the casino front line troops who want card counting made illegal. They are worried about thier wallets not the casino patrons who lose the mortgage. This bull about the dealers deserving tips is funny. You know with this tipping mentality you should tip every one you see;"Thank you for the traffic ticket officer, here is a tip for the experience and for the lesson I have learned".
Re: You think a player should toke over $6,000.00 per year?
Posted by Brillo on 25-May-2004 03:56:17 (#8298)
No, they don't think a player is cheap for toking a dollar or $2. And I based that on an average player who does not spend his life at the tables. And no one expects you to toke when you lose. But if you bought it for $500 and you have over $2000 sitting in front of you, and you don't toke a cent, all the dealers will hate you since they will talk about the cheap bastard on table 10. You will of course not be popular with management so if you have the dealers against you as well...well...as a counter, you just might be pressing your luck.
But do what you like. I'm just offering information and have never hustled or begged for a toke in my life. I treat every player with respect regardless of their tipping habits. The fleas of course have to reach for their come bets but they like to do that anyway; it makes them feel less obligated.
I realize that there are georges and stiffs and those in between and it will always be that way. But I still hold the opinion that if you feel that you can't afford to tip the dealer a buck after the end of his shift, paricularly if he spent the entire time dealing to just you, maybe you just arn't that much of a counter or even that much of a human being.
Re: I used to believe that, too
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-May-2004 02:51:28 (#8266)
"Most dealers know very little and care very little about advantage play, penetration, and game speed. Most don't even realize WHY you are toking them. They have no idea that you would like them to deal deeper and faster."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's why you have to tell them!
"Hey man I'm falling asleep over here. Do you think you could deal a little faster? Thanks buddy." I had a dealer increase his speed 50% after asking him once.
I guess I should tip Jesus for dying for me! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 24-May-2004 09:05:16 (#8269)
Don't Forget to Tip The Mail Carrier Next Time He Delivers Your Mail *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 24-May-2004 20:41:07 (#8286)
Re: tokes
Posted by Inskipp on 25-May-2004 18:48:48 (#8336)
Counters sit at third base. Counters concentrate. Counters are businesslike. Counters are serious. Counters don't chit chat. Counters drink bottled water. Counters never tip.
You want to look like a counter, keep doing all these behaviors. You want to stop looking like a counter, stop all these behaviors.
A,8 Double
Posted by CanKen on 23-May-2004 10:16:48 (#8249)
The only play that seems to cause an uproar where I play, (aside from splitting tens, which I don't do), is doubling A,8 vs 4,5,6 at the appropriate count. It doesn't come up very often in an 8-deck game, but I did it yesterday against the dealer's 4 and immediately got screams of "Don't do that!", "You already got 19!". Then the dealer chimed in with "Are you sure you want to do that? This gentleman has $400 on the table!" I asked the big bettor if he didn't want me to do it, and he just shrugged, so I went ahead. As it happened, I got my ten, and felt good until the dealer turned a 10, then drew a 7 for 21. Of course several people were kind enough to point out that I had "taken the dealer's bust card".
My question is whether this play is worth the hassle or should I just forget it?
CK
Re: A,8 Double
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 23-May-2004 10:43:06 (#8252)
s19 vs 5,6 are included on the expanded I18 otherwise known as the "catch 22".
I would say YES they are too valuable a play to discard.
Why let the thoughts or actions of a few loser ploppies be any concern for your actions? Only be concerned with heat from the casino, not its patrons.
If undue uproar from the ignorant masses causes the eye of attention to be placed on you, then you might consider altering your play. I would try strategies to nip this ploppy "advice" in the bud, before it got to the level that the casino noticed or gets involved, before I would alter my actual play.
If given a chance, the entire table would love to play every hand for you. Blackjack is a "team" sport according to the ploppies. Let them know you aren't a team player upfront, and later strange plays won't get reactions.
Re: A,8 Double YES
Posted by zengrifter on 23-May-2004 12:28:46 (#8254)
YES - its worth it... especially if the play causes some of the ploppies to leave the table. zg
Request re BJ IQ Scores
Posted by CanKen on 23-May-2004 18:50:21 (#8259)
Mayor:
The average IQ score is interesting, but I wonder whether it would be possible to provide a table showing percentile rankings for scores?
(I'd like to compare it to my "Miller Analogies" score, (from a few decades ago.))
Thanks, CK
Re: Request re BJ IQ Scores
Posted by The Mayor on 23-May-2004 19:08:51 (#8260)
Here are the stats:
number of exams: 344
Average = 131.3226744
Std dev = 29.23149301
And here are a few percentile breakdowns for the data...
70-th percentile: 150+
80-th percentile: 157+
90-th percentile: 161+
95-th percentile: 172+
99-th percentile: 186+
--Mayor
Re: Request re BJ IQ Scores
Posted by CanKen on 23-May-2004 22:23:00 (#8264)
That was fast. Thanks very much. Hope others find it interesting too.
CK
playing 21 as a career
Posted by ed_vantage on 24-May-2004 09:57:40 (#8271)
Are there many pro 21 players out there who play for greens and/or blacks? If so what kind of cover do you lay down and how long have you been at it? any other glory/horror stories you want to share?
ed
Re: playing 21 as a career
Posted by ladykiller on 24-May-2004 13:21:09 (#8275)
There aren't a whole lot of full time counters out there that solely make their living off of BJ. The fact is that you can't always play an area forever. Many try at full timing it, but find they can't handle the swings. Everyone has an "unblievable" bad luck story of how they lost 20 double downs in a row, or lost for 20 sessions straight. The lifestyle can be very detrimental to many aspects of a person's life. I myself make most of my money right now at BJ, but know I won't forever. I just won't be able to play the best casinos forever. More and more casinos are making worse rules all the time. Two decades ago, you could use a decent count system and play a SD with awesome rules for real long sessions. It just isn't a reality anymore. To those that pull it off full time and make 50k a year or more, all the power and respect to you. I myself will continue to do it full time in the summer for as long as I'm still in school and maybe for a few months after I graduate, but I know that I'll never last for years down the road. I just want to make what I can and still be able to go back to LV when I'm 40 and make some change on the side.
Re: playing 21 as a career
Posted by Tom on 25-May-2004 04:26:30 (#8299)
Yes, you can(or I can) play for years and years in the same area as long as you're no big threat(which is 99% of us). Not all casinos sweat a card counter,many will even joke about it. A good personality and act surely helps. Can you make millions,buy boats,cadillacs and blah,blah? No, you cant.....or no, I cant. Can you eat good? Yes.
It's certainly not gravy. The stories are too radical to tell. Anyone who says(or thinks) it's easy, is a liar or a dreamer.
Re: playing 21 as a career
Posted by Learning to count on 25-May-2004 08:15:54 (#8308)
I agree 100%. But when you get into the groove, lets call it BJ nirvana well then it becomes a way of life. In this way it does become easier to do and is pleasurable.
Who splits 10s?
Posted by The Big Cowboy on 24-May-2004 15:30:40 (#8278)
I like having 20. And with shoe games, it is rare for the TC to get positive enough to even think about splitting 10s. I feel a little uncomfortable sitting at a table and splitting 10s, especially with a high count, I would have a large bet out. What do you all think? Or am I just a wuss? Victoria any response?
Re: Who splits 10s?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-May-2004 19:45:08 (#8285)
I split 10's against 5 and 6 when the count calls for it, AND, for cover, when the count is positive but not high enough where my bet is increasing. Split 10's is a high-value playing index and I don't like to give it up. This provides the best cover for the lowest risk.
Re: Who splits 10s?
Posted by zengrifter on 24-May-2004 21:17:09 (#8291)
I concur! zg
Re: Who splits 10s?
Posted by revereman on 24-May-2004 21:16:50 (#8290)
Counters and idiots.
Re: Who splits 10s?
Posted by suicyco maniac on 24-May-2004 21:49:09 (#8292)
I have been known to split tens on occasion. It totally depends on the situation at hand as every casino is different. Just use common sense and figure out what is best at the time. SM
Re: Who splits 10s?
Posted by RyGuy on 24-May-2004 22:59:13 (#8295)
If the count calls for splitting tens in a double deck game, it would be +5 or greater. If this is the case then I would have 5 or more units out. I have a very hard time convincing myself to break up 20. Also, I fear the wraith of the ploppies and the dealer who is guaranteed to say, "Are you SURE you want to do that?" All the while the ploppies are shaking their heads and damning me in the process. Too much of scene if you ask me.
Furthermore, If I draw a ten to a split ten do I resplit??? Should I be happy with 2 20's or should I be splitting them up again? This move I feel would tip everyone off that I am counting. I play very strict BS with count modifications. At the casino that I play at they are starting to get to know me as a winning player. I play there about 2 times a week in 3-4 hr sessions. I spread red 1-8 in a DD game. I am just a beginning counter so I am cautious about being flagged. I think this move would seal the deal.
Ryguy
I do
Posted by Shaggy18vw on 24-May-2004 23:36:59 (#8297)
Splitting those tens is a lot of fun. Just play it up like the wild "gambler" you are. YEOWW I'M FEELIN' LUCKY, LETS SPLIT THOSE FACE CARDS.
More Beans Please
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 25-May-2004 10:06:08 (#8311)
If your max bet is 1% of bank and the index calls for it when you have a 4 or 5% advantage, you should go for it. Here is a section of the table from
"other players hands.xls"
10,10 A 1.54
10,10 10 0.53
10,10 9 2.25
10,10 8 3.89
10,10 7 5.06
10,10 6 5.17
10,10 5 4.5
10,10 4 4.04
10,10 3 3.64
10,10 2 3.24
All counters are idiots, so don't worry about cover. ;>
"Third base! You really want to see me screw up your hand? HAHAHAHAHA!! There ya go snoodlegrass! Live with it!"
Caution and strength, bear and bull markets, all call for different styles of retreat and attack. Defending with 20 is always nice, but attacking/splitting to the left and right flank is the proper play.
Sun Tzu
Re: Who splits 10s?
Posted by Victoria on 25-May-2004 13:27:09 (#8319)
Cowboy, do not know why you singled me out for an opinion? Not the judge of wussiness here I think.
I have only split tens when playing heads up or with one other player in DD and the game was not being watched closely by the pit at the time.
In the 6D game that I plan more often I have only done it twice. Both times I was heads up in a place that I do not go to often and I was winning big. Told the dealer something to the effect of "lets see if my luck is as good as I think it is" and split. Kind of a wild, hot gambler thing.
In the local Indian joint the tables are generally near full and the ploppies will get all over you for doubling soft 17 or 18, splitting 9's and many other basic strategy plays. Splitting tens there will bring ploppy heat which I can live with but it also alerts the pit. Dealers there are required to yell out plays such as hitting hard 17 and splitting 10's, which also alerts the pit. Balancing the expected EV of the split with the possible loss of EV of a barring or being half shoed, I just do not split 10's there. If the day comes when I think I would no longer want to return to this place, the count is high enough but there is also too many other players at the table, I just might do it and see if I can reduce the number of players at the table.
Also, I would guess that it is a safer bet in a SD or DD game.
Re: Who splits 10s?
Posted by The Big Cowboy on 25-May-2004 13:44:27 (#8321)
Thanks for responding Victoria. I singled you out because you always give longer and clear explanations for what you do. What's interesting is how many people say they have gotten heat for doubling soft hands. I have never gotten heat for that. I'm not sure why, but hopefully there is at least one other person at the table who knows basic strategy and who knows the proper "basic" plays for soft hands--including when to double down. I have gotten heat for hitting hard 17s, splitting 10s, and even for taking late surrender if you can believe that. My attitude usually is that no one else at the table (especially the dealer) knows what I know, so they all can just keep playing their dumb ways and just leave me alone. Actually they can all just go do something anatomically impossible. With the info provided in this thread though, I think I'm more likely to split 10s now, where I before just felt uncomfortable giving up a 20 for the unknown. Though I'm sure you all have experienced having a big bet out, having 20, and losing to a dealer 21. I do like having the math on my side. Thanks for all your input everyone.
Re: Who splits 10s?
Posted by revereman on 25-May-2004 16:07:32 (#8330)
When is it appropriate to hit hard 17?
-9 UAPC vs ACE *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 25-May-2004 19:28:20 (#8337)
Re: -9 UAPC vs ACE
Posted by revereman on 26-May-2004 08:33:19 (#8347)
I'm not familiar with UAPC but -9 sounds like a pretty low count. Why would someone so sophisticated to know to hit hard 17 vs. A be playing at a -9 count?
Is it really worth hitting this in the few times it comes up to gain so much atention from the other players, and more importantly, the pit? Please don't tell me it's worth it because all the other players will leave and you'll be able to get in more hands per hour.
It is appropriate to hit hard 17
Posted by Victoria on 26-May-2004 12:25:11 (#8357)
Long after I have wonged out of the table!
But I have seen it done several times and always announced.
Victoria
Re: Did it once!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-May-2004 15:33:21 (#8366)
It was right at the end of the shoe and not worth Wonging out because I was getting good pen, and I had 17 vs. A, count was right to draw. And I wanted to get people shaking their heads.
Re: Did it once!
Posted by Dschddny on 27-May-2004 10:34:08 (#8391)
And, what happened?
TOKES
Posted by aceking29 on 24-May-2004 23:10:02 (#8296)
I LIKE THAT MY ORIGINAL POST STIRRED SOME ON THIS BOARD.YOU SEE I AM ONE OF YOU A FAIRLY GOOD COUNTER WHO SPREADS 50-300 AT OUR LOCAL JOINTS.BUT I AM ALSO A DEALER.
AND ALL I WILL SAY TO YOU WHO THINK DEALERS SHOULDN'T BE TOKED IS YOU GET THE EXACT TREATMENT THAT YOU DESERVE.DEALING IS A SERVICE IN A CUSTOMER SERVICE INDUSTRY AND THEREFOR IF TREATED WITH GOOD CUSTOMER SERVICE IS DESERVING OF A TOKE.AND TO THOSE WHO THINK A DEALER HAS NO CONTROL OF THE GAME HE IS DEALING ,
WELL THEN YOU REALLY HAVE NO CLUE.THAT SHITTY %45 PEN YOUR GETTING FROM THAT GUY WHOM YOU SEE AS SOME LUMP DEALING THE CARDS MIGHT ACTUALLY BE FROM A FELLOW COUNTER WHO IS DOING HIS BEST FOR YOU TO START ONLY AFTER A WHILE HE REALIZES HE IS GOING TO BE DEALING TO YOU FOR $5 PER HOUR.OR WHEN THAT COUNT FINALLY SOARS AFTER 10 BAD DOUBLE DECK SHUFFLES IN A ROW AND THERE ARE A GOOD 5-6 HANDS LEFT,OOPS HE DROPS THE DECKS AND SHUFFLES,HMMM...NO HEAT FROM PIT OR SUVEILLANCE FOR THIS ONE .I DO IT REGUARLY TO COUNTING STIFFS I DEAL TO.ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS COUNTER AND I GET A PAT ON THE BACK.
ON THE OTHER HAND THOSE COUNTERS THAT REALIZE THAT A DEALER CAN MAKE IT A VERY PROFITABLE NIGHT AND PUT THE DEALERS UP WHEN THEY ARE WINNING, WELL %75 PEN IS COMMON FOR ME AND OOPS DEALING ONE PAST THE CUT CARD SEEMS TO HAPPEN A LOT TOO.
SO TO ALL OF YOU WHO STIFF JUST KEEP FIGHTING THE WAR.AND TO YOU THAT TOKE KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK YOUR TOKES ARE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED AND I KNOW MY FELLOW DEALERS(AT LEAST THE ONES THAT HAVE A CLUE)WILL KEEP TRYING TO GIVE YOU THE BENEFIT OF A GOOD GAME TO SHOOT AT.
Re: TOKES
Posted by deZerTomB on 25-May-2004 09:33:30 (#8309)
all i have to say is turn off the caps lock. stop screaming.
Re: TOKES
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 25-May-2004 09:44:09 (#8310)
Just keep the Aces & Faces in the play part of the deck, not under the cut card, and we'll all be whistlin' Dixie.
Re: TOKES
Posted by The Mayor on 25-May-2004 10:19:58 (#8312)
Let's look at our counter who spreads from $10 to $100 on double deck. This player may have an edge of 1% overall in a good game, and an average bet in the $25-$30 range. Playing heads up double deck, there will be about 10 hands played, for a total of $250-$300 wagered. The counter can expect to make 1% of that $300 as profit, or $2.50 to $3.00.
How much of that $2.50 profit per deck do you want in order to keep the game good? Do you see now how absurd your request is for tokes?
Dealers will do just fine on tokes from ploppies, but advantage players are there to earn some $$$. If you would understand the simple long term struggle such players must endure, you would be much more compassionate and freely deal deep.
The dealers are the front line in the deterioration of the games.
Do it just because you should!!!
--Mayor
Re: TOKES
Posted by Brillo on 25-May-2004 12:02:28 (#8314)
I think the dealers are asking for a toke per shift not deck. As far as the dealers being on the frontline regarding deteriation of the games, I don't think it is the dealers who dicate the rules of the game. As far as dealing deep, they should deal just as deep as the house wants. If it is just the tourist who is providing the tips, then deal to the tourist. The tourist could care less about penetration. In fact, they love when you shuffle frequently since it allows them to play longer.
Anyways, this whole conversation is probably fruitless. Most dealers are automatons, so it is probably no benefit to the counter to tip, unless they have found a favorable game and a favorable dealer that they want to continue a relationship with.
But again, I think you're argument is with the casino not the dealer. The two are not exactly intertwined.
Re: TOKES
Posted by aceking29 on 25-May-2004 13:21:49 (#8317)
my question for the mayor is WHY SHOULD I? cause your a good guy,because i recognize your a skilled player,because you mumbled mot her fuc ker to me when i drew 5 card 21AGAINST PAT 20 WITH $300 OUT.I DONT THINK SO!MONEY TALKS AND YOUR BULL SH IT GETS THE SHORT CUT!PERIOD.
Re: TOKES
Posted by Learning to count on 26-May-2004 09:25:18 (#8348)
"my question for the mayor is WHY SHOULD I? cause your a good guy,because I recognize your a skilled player,because you mumbled mot her fuc ker to me when I drew 5 card 21AGAINST PAT 20 WITH $300 OUT.I DONT THINK SO!MONEY TALKS AD YOUR BULL SH IT GETS THE SHORT CUT!PERIOD."
Tisk Tisk why so angry???? The Mayor was just explaining in an objecive manner why we dont tip. Why dont you go back to a school and become a computer tech or a licensed practical nurse. There are many occupations which you can earn an honest living and actually provide a service that benifit's humanity.
There are two kinds of gambling degenerates at the table. The ploppy and the dealer. The dealer because he helps the greedy lying/cheating casinos steal the dumb ploppies mony. The dealers loses all the way around. The casino is the only winner there.
We would not play at your table any way. You are very hostile and your threat to short cutting revelas to us that you would do anything to stop a honest card counter from plying his trade; even cheat us and beat us and obviously file false charges against us. I hope you realize the wrong you are committing. I forgive you; but I will still take your money at the tables. : ) LTC
I don't feel bad for the overpaid dealers
Posted by Like a freckle on 25-May-2004 12:21:45 (#8316)
I don't feel bad for dealers and what they earn. It all comes down to economics.
People are paid what they are worth. Supply and demand meet in the middle somewhere, and that is where the wage is set. Say there were a shortage of dealers. Wages would increase for dealers. Conversely, wages would decrease if there were an excess supply of dealers. Currently there is an excess of dealers. Therefore, they shouldn't be paid much. Why pay more than they have to? Would you pay ten dollars when you could get something for five?
All of us have interacted with dealers. We have been dealt cards. We know how little knowledge is needed to do the job. Why should some dealers make more than school teachers and firemen? The same argument could be made for cocktail waitresses. Any bimbo can write down your drink and deliver it some time later. Yet horny old men slip the women cash like the money were as worthless as German marks after WWII.
I will admit that tipping may change penetration or could positively affect EV. If tipping does increase EV more than the cost of tipping, then that is the only time it is worth it. Otherwise, why bother tipping? The dealers are already being overpaid. Saying you must tip people that perform services is asinine. Who the hell made up that rule? How about the people that perform services daily that are never tipped? Think fast food. Think janitors.
Bartenders, cocktail waitresses, and dealers are all overpaid. The skill needed to perform is minimal. They are overcompensated for their job. End of story.
Re: I don't feel bad for the overpaid dealers
Posted by rocky on 25-May-2004 13:45:16 (#8322)
"The skill needed to perform is minimal"...you sure you understand the dealing process? A good dealer on a SD/DD game is a true artist at work...have you ever dealt a hand professionally? With that attitude then the majority of the dealer compensation will dwindle, people will not become dealers and the casino will not be able to staff the table games(which most casino's view as a side line to the more profitable slot machine play) and eventually the only "21" action you will get will be from a video screen on these digital "21" games popping up. The entire gaming process is dependent on each other...your "the hell with the dealers" attitude is going to rear up and bite you where it's going to hurt...in the pocket book.
"True artist at work" -- LOL!
Posted by LVBear584 on 25-May-2004 14:07:50 (#8325)
A good dealer on a SD/DD game is a true artist at work...
Subway used to (maybe still does) call their counter service workers "sandwich artists."
Re: "True artist at work" -- LOL!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 25-May-2004 14:28:34 (#8327)
It worked for Jerod. "I was on the Jerod diet. Look, now I have to much skin. My neck looks like a vaj-eye-na!" We call our garbage truckers Sanitary Engineers. ;> What's a big name with nothing to go with it? Better to be called a Burger King if you ask me. Still, a good dealer can make sure you get the cards on the top of the deck, just as easily as he can burry them. You must agree LVBear?
PS Why are you called a Bear and not a Blackjack Engineer? ;>
"True artist" - are you joking?!
Posted by Like a freckle on 25-May-2004 14:25:32 (#8326)
I do understand the dealing process. A third grader could understand the dealing process. With all due respect, we all know that blackjack is not difficult to deal. Anyone can learn how to deal after an hour or two of instruction. And no, I have not dealt a hand professionally, though that doesn't discredit me whatsoever. You don't have to give birth to a child to understand there is pain involved. I have dealt blackjack to my friends on numerous occasions, however. It is very simple to do.
Let's face it: many dealers possess little or no education. Many know barely enough English to get by. The job calls for no college education. Most probably have no marketable skills. Why do you think they are dealers? They should be paid as much as the "sandwich artist" at Subway that makes your sandwich. At least the employees at Subway are able to communicate ideas effectively. Most dealers can't even make small talk, much less understand elementary level English. If you can add simple numbers and perform basic arithmetic, you can be a blackjack dealer.
Dealing is a process, much like digging a ditch is a process, much like making a hamburger is a process, much like... well, you get the idea. Remedial, repetitive actions become hardwired in your brain. The muscle memory develops quickly.
Saying blackjack dealers are artists is ridiculous.
Re: "True artist" - are you joking?!
Posted by ladykiller on 25-May-2004 15:17:12 (#8329)
I agree completely. They are unskilled labor. I find it unacceptable in all ways you can look at it to say that many dealers make as much as an electrical engineer or any other skilled profession. As one, I think that it is ridiculous that I go to school for 4 years, bust my ass, and some guy who often times never even graduated from highschool can take some class and after a few weeks make the same as me. It's bullshit.
They are unskilled labor and trying to toke in the hopes that they'll deal you a few extra cards to make an some extra EV is a fantasy for 99.9% of dealers out there; maybe more. Face it, even the pit bosses are morons, who possessed maybe 10 points more IQ than the rest of the dealers, or could kiss more ass to get there.
Re: "True artist" - are you joking?!
Posted by Brillo on 25-May-2004 16:21:38 (#8332)
This has been a good discussion, too bad for the chippiness. I think there are very few people who are really, really good at what they do, be they dealers, counters, basketball players or opera composers.
Now, I think I have been convinced that counters perhaps should not tip. It's up to you, and if you feel good with yourself, go for it.
But I'm also equally convinced that for the most part, I should give no consideration whatsoever to counters. My responsibility is to all my customers, of which counters make up a distinct minority. Why should I deal fast when the other players do not like it? They want to be entertained, engage in small talk, make jokes, pause for dramatic effect before revealing their DD card, give them time to consult the entire table before making their decision, et cetera. Why should I cut that 8-deck shoe really deep when it may cause my tokers to lose their money faster? To benefit casinos and counters?
Perhaps there is no common ground to be found here. Both dealers and counters are in the casino to make money, so I feel that my attention should be given to those who are giving me money, not the casino, not the counter, but the average tourist/player looking for a good time. So if they want me to take my time and entertain and shuffle a great deal, well, that's just what I am going to do.
Agreed...
Posted by Hal Jordan on 25-May-2004 19:38:49 (#8339)
and if they are a good player they either won't be at your table, or you won't know they are there. Quite the perfect symbiotic relationship.
HJ
Re: "True artist" - are you joking?!
Posted by deZerTomB on 25-May-2004 20:59:38 (#8340)
no penetration, no patronage from me.
don't you get tired of showing 100 ploppies in a row how to tuck their cards under the bet? How much do the $5 flat bettors really tip? What if you're dealing black and a whale who isn't tipping complains to the host about the sourpuss dealer who whines for tips and shuffles after 2 hands? What if your casino goes to notch type system where you have no control over the penetration? What if they stick you on roulette all day because too many regular customers are complaining about you? What if the pit watches you place the penetration card on a non-tipping player and says that's not the way we do it here? What's your response? Why don't you just dole out comps for tips? Can I get a suite for a green toke? Cut out the middle man and just take your deserved tokes out of the tray or players losses.
You must be a powerful dealer who answers to no one.
Another point: there is only one action that determines which cards come out first and that is obviously the placement of the cut card.
Finally: my point with all this is that the road to riches and the thousand dollar tip palace is paved with a professional, respectful, courteous manner to all player alike, from the homeless to the whale. You'll never see anything but red with that attitude.
Re: "True artist" - are you joking?!
Posted by Brillo on 25-May-2004 21:49:01 (#8342)
You seem to be a bit misinformed about how the pit works. The floor doesn't sweat me about cut card placement or anything else. They know that I know what I'm doing. I make more money than most of them anyway. I deal everything except tiles and the customers love me. I guess you can say that's a pretty powerful combination for being left alone.
And I don't whine about tokes. I've never hustled or begged for a toke in my life. I only whine when they move me over to snapperland. Also, your paranoia is making you believe that the pit revolves around you. It does not. I could care less about you as does the entire pit for the most part. Whatever heat you draw is largely your own fault, I can assure you of that.
Run While You Still Have Legs!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 26-May-2004 07:55:48 (#8346)
Brill, these math guys are right. If they tip you, they cut into there 1% edge, no question. Some of the guys have no other source of income. I make $32/hr at work, lots online playing sports and blackjack, can tithe, and tithe to my savings, with the other 80% buy a new house, two new cars, take Carribean holidays with my family, sponsor children in Sri Lanka, and can afford to toke a dealer $1 (I play it for them when the count is in our favor or when I expect an A) every half hour without my BJ BR even noticing the leak. My average win rate is $99.90 an hour playing 8 deck blackjack with a table minimum of $15.
Re: Run While You Still Have Legs!
Posted by rocky on 27-May-2004 16:35:50 (#8402)
rob...thank you for the voice of reason. What was the problem with my post...did these guys think I advocated green/black action for tokes or do they think dealers are sub-humans? A lousy buck or two every deck/shoe would be fine if everyone on the game did it. What's with the attitude with these gents about subway sandwich makers? Hey, like I said, maybe I spent too much time in LV...I toke the subway girl also...has anyone ever been in New Orleans? a wonderful custom down there of lagniappe(sic)...somethink like a a bakers dozen...y'know 13 for the price of 12. Just reverse the positions and you'll see why when you treat a subway sandwich girl or a casimo dealer in this manner, you'll be remembered with fondness and treated a LOT better the next time you're in their joint. Yes, the procedure manual specifies where the cut card goes...but do you think the floor/pit get out a ruler and examine? As far was correcting the dealer for a procedure matter...every joint I've worked at(I'm on my 18th one now) always speaks to the dealer AFTER they are off the game. I realize everyone is entitled to their opinion but lets all "try and get along, please?"
Re: Run While You Still Have Legs!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 27-May-2004 20:46:52 (#8411)
Well, I think because you are a dealer posting at a CC site, it's like wearing an American flag and going to an Iraqi soccer game. ;> Counters are "exceptional" in the fact that we can beat the house, and this tends to make us think that we are better than everone around us. We call people like our Mom and siblings "ploppies." We have attitude. Talk to the hand, unless you are a counter. I remember a trip into the US and it was around 3AM and I was hungry. I pulled into a truck stop and ordered macaroni salad and fried chicken. The waitress wore an outfit like you'd see in a 50's Pop Mechanic ad. She gave we twice as much chicken and macaroni as I had ordered, and it was all fresh, not yesterdays cluck cluck. I'll remember that as long as I live. I had enough eats for the entire trip, and a warm fuzzy feeling for the average American 9-5, or night shift worker that I will never have for McDonald's, Harrah's, Sam Boyd, or Subway. ;> A little more heart and a lot less attitude goes a long way. I give the Cuban Sinyorita a US1 each day for cleaning my entire room after me wife unit 1 and unit 2 have destroyed it and she writes us a love letter at the end of our stay. A wee tip goes a long way, and I hope the guys give it a try and stop thinking math math math. If they think $1 played for the dealer at +2TC or better eats into their advantage that much they better find a better game and put more cash on the table to get a real advantage. Or how about sequencing some A's or 7's and betting 1 for the dealer then. It's ALL good!
Re: Run While You Still Have Legs!
Posted by aceking29 on 31-May-2004 17:40:48 (#8460)
"Well, I think because you are a dealer posting at a CC site, it's like wearing an American flag and going to an Iraqi soccer game. ;>"
i must interject here.the only reason some dealers have come to post here is because a couple of your members started posting at a dealers' board.
Post Away
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Jun-2004 06:52:19 (#8477)
There is nothing more important than knowledge, so feel free to educate and inform us. True, some of the guys are green here, and some will go trolling dealer boards to see how y'all think, but we can both learn from each other, for whatever the reason.
PS I deal to myself all the time. ;>
A I am a dealer
Re: If you see me...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-May-2004 21:09:31 (#8341)
Remember I will toke you every BJ. I am not greedy, selfish, or foolish. Cut reasonbly deep, and most importantly deal fast because I can count faster than anyone can deal. More hands= more BJ's = more tokes. To be able to count successfully is a gift that not everyone has, I appreciate my gift, and I'm willing to share my profits with those who help me make them.
Anyone here who doesn't toke at all, please, let me know when and where you will be playing. I'll sit somewhere else and while you're sitting there getting hawked and having your play evaluated upstairs, I'll be drinking, toking, and spreading the casino's legs.
Re: If you see me...
Posted by aceking29 on 31-May-2004 17:43:01 (#8461)
Probably thge best post i have seen here to date !
Dealers are people too.
Posted by Strider on 26-May-2004 01:04:18 (#8343)
I agree with you Brillo. You see I'm a cardcounter turned dealer. I'm a young and poor college kid who is saving up money so I can finish my education. I currently have ambitions to go to law school. I became a dealer because of mainly the money. I average around 7-8 dollars an hour in tokes in the card room I work in. Combined with my miniumum wage perhaps that is "overpaid" but to those who believe in the free market system tipping is optional. The free market also doesn't support the concept of the minimum wage which I'm not sure most of you would want to get rid of. I've only been dealing for about two months now and to those who say it is easy is kidding themselves. Things are alot different on the other side. The house wants the dealers to be fast, accurate, and consistant all while communicating with the pit and the patrons. They have to deal of alot of money and while there is no great math in involved they have to really know their arithmatic. A third grader could not deal. While it is an unskilled job it does require about a month of training and alot of practice to be good. Alot of people seem angry and hostile towards dealers simply because they put their cut card where the house tells them to or that they make a decent wage. Please, dealers are people too (not automations) and not all of us aspire to do it as a career. I tip dealers as a counter because it is the decent thing to do. I can understand the mathematical argument and the professional aspect but that still doesn't convince me. I've yet to notice a card counter playing in the place I work (yet alone a consistent basic strategy player). Before this discussion I probably would of tried to give the best penetration possible to a counter if I noticed there was one but now I'm not so sure. I'm working for the house, not the player, so if the player is going to screw me (along with my employer) I mient as well not care about the counter. The house does provide me with a job and a place to earn money. They also pay us even when we are on break. I'm not asking for a grand gift from the players or the counters when I deal, just a buck or two if I see you are winning or enjoying yourself.
Re: Dealers are people too.
Posted by Learning to count on 26-May-2004 07:16:45 (#8345)
On one trip in LV I had a great win for the week. I was way over my expected EV. The guys and I thought we would pay a visit to a local gentlemans club. Now we tip these girls! During one extended conversation with one of the girls. The club was pretty much empty except for our team. I asked her highness why she was a exotic dancer. She claimed that she was in nursing school and this was a great way to earn money. I asked her how much she earned. She answered over 150k a year! I asked "just for dancing". Well she said sometimes I entertain gentlemen after the club closes in the privacy of thier hotel rooms. Her being so gorgeous I felt obliged to ask how much. She answered "the whole night for $1500! I asked "do you get a lot of business at that price." She pulled down her diamond studded tube top and revealed two perfect specimens of a man's demise. I looked and exclaimed yep you get that much. I still can't figure out why she wanted to be a 40k a year nurse. She did say that she made excellent tips sticking that perfect a$$ in guys faces! Yep I tipped her well but I never could get myself to put out the 1500 for that nights physical examination! Yeah some people deserve tips!
Re: Dealers are people too.
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-May-2004 10:08:17 (#8351)
But doesn't that kind of encounter hurt your EV? You'd be a lot better off just taking a whole cucumber and some salad oil from the buffet. As long as the buffet is comped.
Does'nt that hurt you automonkey? *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 26-May-2004 11:41:51 (#8356)
interesting.
Posted by gehrig on 26-May-2004 11:36:18 (#8354)
one fine girlfriend, met on the "continent" yars ago, later stripped at numerous clubs on old compton street, soho. those wahinis had an amazing lifestyle and rigorous schedule. the clubs were about a 1-2 minute walk apart. spots were 6 minutes long such that the girls could do 5 an hour. the wages/tips were big such that she saved and later attended/was graduated from a significant nursing school. she's now in a middle eastern country as a trauma room nurse, making a huge salary, tax free. stripping has an age limit, nursing is good until at least the 60's.
Re: interesting.
Posted by John on 27-May-2004 02:47:18 (#8382)
if you make 150K a year, couldn't you set aside maybe 100K of it every year? Then in 5 years, you'd be sitting pretty well. College is 4 years long. Ummm..........I don't get it.
Re: interesting.
Posted by Learning to count on 27-May-2004 17:06:05 (#8405)
99% of the strippers in the clubs tell this story so you will feel sorry for them and tip them. Hell who needs a bullshite story like that. It simple they show you what you wanna see and you pay. The 100 k usually goes up thier nose or thier pimps nose anyway.
that 150k/year could be higher than reality.
Posted by gehrig on 28-May-2004 10:38:07 (#8419)
in any case, that "job", same as that of a beverage server, is limited timewise. i except that elderly lady that they finally 86'd at the horseshoe. notice a thread on bourie's site that was originated by a 30+ year old female who can't be hired at a southern hardrock joint since the manager "won't hire anyone over 30". the biggest number i've heard for a "las vegas" cocktail server was $250k/year. those of you who may play high dollar pits, surely have seen frequent green checque tokes. the couple of those local, former beverage servers whom i know, own rental property. these beverage servers, and i suspect the local strippers, clearly aren't all dopers or hookers.
that girlfriend mentioned earlier was able to fund a decent education, one beach house, and further travels after about 2 years stripping. now as a trauma center nurse, at something in the high five figures ($u.s.), she's got most of a second beach house paid for. the hours are longer but her employers and the co-workers are classier. a version of a maltese mob seemed to own many of the soho strip clubs. the "regular" clientele are an interesting lot.
could not have said it better
Posted by aceking29 on 04-Jun-2004 02:52:52 (#8562)
my sentiments exactly."take care of those who take care of you".my dealing motto.
oh and screw those who screw you,ha....
Re: "True artist" - are you joking?!
Posted by aceking29 on 31-May-2004 17:32:41 (#8459)
Dealing is a process, much like digging a ditch is a process, much like making a hamburger is a process, much like... well, you get the idea. Remedial, repetitive actions become hardwired in your brain. The muscle memory develops quickly.
were you describing dealing or playing?seems much the same to me.
To all members...and newcomers....
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Management on 25-May-2004 08:12:59 (#8307)
The thread on tipping was HOT. We thank all those who participated. This form of debate is what makes CARDCOUNTER.COM a Blackjack "open forum" if not one of the hottest websites in the world of Blackjack today. All new posters are invited to create a profile. You will recieve a password for instant posting. We also encourage the casino community to post and educate all of their opinion. Thanks to all for their experience and opinions!
dealer pay...
Posted by gehrig on 25-May-2004 16:10:30 (#8331)
a thread below seems to have evolved into a debate about dealer pay...over/under. i recall casino management often stating that if they posted an ad for dealer openings, that the wannabe line would extend to nye county. under or over paid, methinks that those thousands of applicants believe that "minimum wage", lv dealer jobs are better than what they now enjoy. i'd measure the value of a job by the length of line of job applicants.
Re: dealer pay...
Posted by Brillo on 26-May-2004 03:22:42 (#8344)
Several days ago I paid a visit to my old dealing school. It was packed. Probably 80% of the people in there were Asian, mostly Chinese and Filippino. Many had only rudimentary English skills if they could speak it at all. No Hispanics and 1 black woman who obviously had a history of prostitution and drug abuse. She will be perfect for the Western.
Two Chinese ladies who couldn't speak Enlish and a man who said who was 71 were trying to learn dice of all things. You punters must be really looking forward to the future.
I think the demand for the job is solely driven by the amount of Asians in Las Vegas. This certainly does not seem to be a popular employment choice amongst Native Americans. Asians must believe that they can get by in this job with limited English while Hispanics must feel that they cannot. Or maybe it has to do with the fascination with gambling in Asian culture and the Hispanics just prefer to clean hotel rooms? Who knows?
Anyway, since the majority of SD games seem to be in the break-in houses, you boys and gals will be dealing with these folks in the very near future.
since you mention with some apparent authority...
Posted by gehrig on 26-May-2004 11:03:35 (#8352)
the western...how many black prostitutes have *you* seen dealing at the western ? since that joint's been on my route for more years (60's) than you claim to be dealing, i haven't seen any black prostitutes dealing there. what shift ? i play most all shifts at most all playable joints in "las vegas" (most licensees aren't in las vegas, rather in clark county). in the last several years, at the western, i've seen legions of ethiopians (and one eritrean), a few thai, and numerous mainland chinese. occasionally there are mid age anglos dealing. none of the food service, slot floor, security, cage, hotel reception desk, or even bingo staff, seem to fit your description as stated, the foundation of your post. if your "facts" regarding the western were simply puffery, then be advised that there are several (playable games) casino licensees which are demonstrably tackier in all aspects to the western.
please explain. or were you simply "underinformed" ?
Re: since you mention with some apparent authority...
Posted by revereman on 26-May-2004 13:02:16 (#8358)
Nowhere did he write that a black prostitute was dealing at the Western.
how else might he have concluded that...
Posted by gehrig on 26-May-2004 14:35:25 (#8361)
a "black prostitute would be perfect for the western" ? how could he possibly know that ? has he held any sheriff's card for any game at the western ? does he play there often so as to enable him to recount personal observations ?
please explain since i haven't seen "black prostitutes" dealing any game at the western. posters who deliberately lie, as in this case to advance some personal agenda, eliminate any credibility to their posts...now or future.
Re: how else might he have concluded that...
Posted by revereman on 26-May-2004 16:18:08 (#8367)
he's already explained below but it was pretty obvious that he was saying the Western was not a very high class place to play BJ (I've never been there but it is apparently pretty well known among the AP and BJ community and apparently by anyone that's been there)
another counter trait: interpreting things very literally. I find that a lot here.
unless your wife is a black prostitute and you were offended by that, chill out.
if you don't treat the blackjack game "literally"...
Posted by gehrig on 26-May-2004 23:37:45 (#8377)
stop playing now before you buy a bk. i find it amusing that so called "advantage" players are inattentive to accuracy. maybe that's why the poster is pitching cards instead of playing them for wages.
if the poster wished to rate nevada casinos, unknown (apparently) to him, there are several near at hand, that are tackier than the western. if the "professional" players are too effete to play in them, thank you. the last time the "professionals" lowered themselves to play in an "inferior" joint, it could have been at the opera house. after "wong" messaged the subscribers about the game, it became immediately burned out. usta count on weekly gas money from that game.
as to the braggert/poster deriding the western because it had hookers.... i'd be interested in where he works. most of the working girls i see are in thick rug joints, not at the western. would that somehow make those rug joints inferior to the western, using his measuring stick ?
Re: if you don't treat the blackjack game "literally"...
Posted by aceking29 on 31-May-2004 17:19:52 (#8458)
i have read the original post now at least 10 times and still have not seen mention of black prostitutes.maybe pull your head out and re-read or get on the right thread or something!
Re: how else might he have concluded that...
Posted by Brillo on 26-May-2004 17:26:06 (#8370)
This is great. I have played at the Western before. The reason: the clientele, those people are crazy. It's entertaining for me to just be an observer. I deal to pay the bills but I really think of myself as a writer and there is some excellent material there.
Obviously this venue provides some benefit to you or you would not be there. From your posting I can see you would not be entertained by the slobbering drunk or the twitching junkie so there must be other reasons. Is it the sloppy break-ins? The supervisors who don't have a clue? Recently, I saw a floor lady at the Gold Spike smoking a cigarette right in that miniscule pit. I doubt she was concerned about your counting. Also, I recently saw an ad in the paper from the Poker Palace looking for floor people. To qualify, you had to have UNDER 6 months of dealing experience. Are you sure that wouldn't make the candidates over-qualified? Yes, I can see why these establishments are on your route.
no, it's not likely that you "know" why any joint....
Posted by gehrig on 27-May-2004 00:06:21 (#8378)
is on my route. i play or have recently played in most all casino licensees in clark county. clark county extends to mesquite, to laughlin. some i visit only infrequently because of limited hours of 21 games, some because the drive isn't worth it since decent games are nearer at hand. table limits are not an issue. playable games seem to be around at all levels of play.
you mention the 'spike. last time i waxed them i actually felt sorry for that long haired, wahini pitstiff. she was on the phone a half dozen times during that session.
trolling low end joints for weak dealers cum poor game protection is but one aspect of playing there. other than the el cortez coffee shop, it ain't for the vittles, neither. though the monster burger at the longhorn is edible, as is their ham steak special (much better than that at az charlie's).
interesting people are at all joints. some of the pitstiffs at rug joints have been around since the outfit ran them. many of the players at the downtown joints have been supporting those tables for 40 to 50 years. the best stories are usually unravelled at a downtown lunch counter. last week i cornered a fellow with a complex strategy to handicap sports wagers. another time, at the klondike for that $1.99 spaghetti (free with coupon), a guy divulged the intricacies of his horse racing strategy. same with an off shift, high mile cabbie...lots of cool stories. one advantage to living in clark county is that your circle of cronies can include a couple dozen current and former casino employees, even owners. of the two sorts, the employees have more interesting tales.
Re: since you mention with some apparent authority...
Posted by Brillo on 26-May-2004 14:58:57 (#8363)
Uh, that was just a joke. Lack of a sense of humor, another counter key. Besides, a prostitute of any ethnic derivation would be stupid to deal at the Western, it would hurt her EV.
Re: since you mention with some apparent authority...
Posted by Learning to count on 26-May-2004 16:57:29 (#8369)
What would a prostitute who works at the Western look like and just think she would probably be wearing one of those diner hanging signs saying "Pu$$y cheap/on sale; I will pay you to try it". : )
HA HA HA!!! You hit the nail on the head, TWICE! *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 26-May-2004 19:48:06 (#8372)
Re: since you mention with some apparent authority...
Posted by rocky on 27-May-2004 17:12:21 (#8406)
brill...you should explain why most joints are hiring asian dealers nowadays. With their limited english there is little verbal interaction...no kidding around, no flirting, no laughing...which translates into reduced dealer bets which means the joint gets to win more. When dealers win and "lock up" the toke, the joint doesn't get another shot at the $$$$. These asian dealers(mostly female) also fulfill the typical white male fantasy of "geisha doll" girlfriends. Sounds racist? Well, I'm asian myself and a true student of "gaming" and have NEVER thought that casino management is stupid(with notable exceptions). The entire casino floor is a trap for the unwary...never forget the original operators came out of Stubenville, Hot Springs, Miami and New Orleans along with the carnival guys and they NEVER gave a "mark" an even break at all. In gaming, always look for what's NOT being shown...
Re: since you mention with some apparent authority...
Posted by Brillo on 27-May-2004 22:18:24 (#8414)
As far as casinos hiring Asians, they have no choice in the matter. These are the people who want the job. Step into a dealing school, you will not see many whites, blacks, hispanics. In fact, many of the whites are from Europe and the blacks from Africa. I'm speaking about the LV market of course.
You are right that non-English-speaking dealers are perhaps the major reason why down-town tokes are so low. Of course DT doesn't attract the high rollers, yet the mute dealers are unable to properly milk the clientele they have. Another reason for hiring them is that they will stay in the same place for years since they cannot get a better job due to communication difficulties. You will find supervisors and probably even pit bosses who cannot speak English DT.
You are also right that there are many stunning Asians dealers, some of whom I have gotten to know very well;) I've asked some of them why they don't sling cocktails and make a lot more money...they were too modest to wear the uniform.
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