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Should Dealers Toke Counters?
Posted by Sentry on 26-May-2004 09:30:53 (#8349)
In my occupation as a counter I have performed a service and helped an economy thrive. Some of my duties have included:
Job security: Keeping an empty table open that would have been shut down. Many times, the dealers would have been sent home early had i not been playing.
Shill: Resurrecting a dead table after a "hot" dealer has knocked over the patrons like so many bowling pins. I act as a shill, and before long the table fills in again.
Bodyguard: I make sure that my dealer is as comfortable as possible, free from smoke, insults and harassment.
Therapist: I provide a friendly face and a bartender's ear. When a dealer wants too talk about their wretched kids or crappy boss or husband, I am a sympathetic ear, preserving their sanity by giving them the therapeutic release of talking out their problems.
Advertising: In my conversations with my fellow players, I often discuss the merits of the restaurants, and the allure of the Craps table and slot machines.
Diplomat: I have helped smooth over disputes with unhappy customers that would have resulted in lost gaming time and a possible write-up for my dealer.
Goodwill Ambassador: By being a good neighbor, I have encouraged other players to stay and tip longer.
I have made the dealer's job easier, given the supervisor a happier, more efficient employee, and for the stockholders of the casino- I have given them a more active table to generate profits. Bar me? They should be giving me a salary and stock options!
Sentry
Check out "The Best" post archive...
Posted by The Mayor on 26-May-2004 09:52:57 (#8350)
http://www.cardcounter.com/best.pl
Great post!
--Mayor
Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!! *NM*
Posted by Learning tocount on 26-May-2004 11:38:28 (#8355)
Re: Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!
Posted by revereman on 26-May-2004 13:09:00 (#8359)
I don't think it's post of the year or even belongs in the best post archives. It's sort of cute satire but that's about it. Casinos are a business designed to make money and they owe counters nothing. I think it's very unfair that they can ban counters or use other countermeasures (pun intended) just for using their brains. However, since they are in the business of making money, they choose not to serve customers who they **think** have an advantage over the house. How long would Walmart be in business if they allowed people to buy things at 20% off and then return them at full price? His arguments, while cute, really don't hold any water.
Re: Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 26-May-2004 14:19:38 (#8360)
The post does point out things that counters do that help the casino.
Ploppies do not like to play at or open up empty tables. Since counters seek out empty tables, they are creating a more 'friendly' environment for the ploppies. Counters usually are more polite to casino staff, and do try to smooth over conflicts with assh*le ploppies in order to keep the game moving.
Will WalMart kick me out because I only buy items on sale?
"I'm sorry Sir, but your shopping is just too strong for us. You are welcome to buy some of the higher marked up items, but you can't buy any more of the sale items, we reserve those for our over-extended credit shopaholic customers. Oh, and by the way, we are putting your picture in the book, so don't try and go to K-Mart and pick up their blue light special items, either."
Re: Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!
Posted by Brillo on 26-May-2004 15:04:18 (#8364)
That is a great post. And when you think about it, it matters not whether counters tip. There arn't enough of them to have any effect on dealer compensation whatsoever. My only point was that it might be for the counter for him/her to tip in certain situations.
Re: Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!
Posted by Learning to count on 26-May-2004 16:53:56 (#8368)
Now your are speaking with clarity and logic. I will agree that there may be times when a stratigically placed tip may help. So we have common ground. With this type of debate the world could be a better place.
Re: Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 26-May-2004 20:22:05 (#8375)
easy to get cuaght up in a word fight and forget what the hell you are fighting for. Brill is right, there are not enough of us to put a dent in his untaxed income. ;>
Re: Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!
Posted by Sonny on 26-May-2004 18:30:23 (#8371)
> How long would Walmart be in business if they allowed people to buy things at
> 20% off and then return them at full price?
Card counters are not returning merchandise for a full refund, we are simply shopping around for the best deal in town. If Walmart doesn't want people buying things for 20% off then they have the option of marking the prices up. Casinos also have the ability to offer an unbeatable blackjack game, but they don't.
Still, I think this is a little off topic. I think the intent of the original post was to show that card counters also provide a "service" but don't expect to be tipped, while dealers do.
-Sonny-
I Agree
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 26-May-2004 20:20:46 (#8374)
it is sarcastically funny, but not POM. If it is POM, it doesn't say much for the more important posts that I have seen here.
Why...
Posted by The Mayor on 26-May-2004 23:34:33 (#8376)
This post makes many VERY important points.
First, advantage players have rights, and those rights are equal to any other person in the casino, whether dealer, or player, or management.
Second, advantage players are good for the game.
Third, advantage players should get reasonable compensation for their positive effect on the game.
In EVERY sport, it is the superstars that bring in the fans. That's even true in gambling, witness the superstars of poker that have made "World Poker Tour" a hit. It should also be true of other casino games. We are good for the game, and we need to be recognized as such.
All these points, and more, were both implicit and explicit in Sentry's post. It was not idle sarcasm, it was brilliance.
--Mayor
Re: I don't think we're good for the game
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 27-May-2004 01:01:46 (#8379)
The reason is that we provide examples of good play and the casino can't afford that. If every ploppy just learned basic strategy it would kill the game.
Re: Why...
Posted by revereman on 27-May-2004 08:40:03 (#8384)
I totally (and respectfully) disagree with your post and am more inclined to agree with Automatic Monkey (sorry to lump you in with me AM).
Advantage players certainly have some rights (basic courtesy, no injuries, etc) but from the casino's perspective, and the ways the laws are written, casinos can refuse service to people they feel have an advantage over the house. I think its unfair they can do this but life is often unfair, as I'm sure your parents have taught you.
To think that APs are good for business is just delusional. Ploppies to do not play BJ because they see some players (presumably APs) winning. They are either there to have a good time (to most APs losing money is not a good time but that is what separates us from ploppies), the excitement, the chance to be a bigshot (as opposed to their normally mundane lives), the chance to win big (its all luck anyway, in their minds), and a wide variety of psychological and financial reasons). They are not there, I repeat, because they see other people winning.
Advantage players do not deserve "compensation" for their efforts. APs are still gamblers. They just are gamblers with a slight advantage over the house in the "long run." Even the "best" APs have had long runs (even a year or more) when they are net losers. The game, especially as constructed today, is very hard to beat. APs don't deserve anything.
I still maintain that the original post is not brilliant, but has some value as a cute, satirical post.
Having written all that, thank you, Mayor for having a well-run site where we can (hopefully intelligently) debate these and other issues.
Re: Why...
Posted by The Mayor on 27-May-2004 08:45:51 (#8386)
Without the lure that blackjack is beatable, the game would not be nearly as interesting to ploppies. They only know the game is beatable because we exist. Blackjack is the most popular table game because of us. Counters are as necessary to the success of blackjack as any pro to any popular sport.
Ploppy's don't care how we play and don't try and copy us. The just know there are people who beat the game and that's all that matters.
Therefore we serve the casino's interests.
--Mayor
Re: Why...
Posted by revereman on 27-May-2004 08:55:14 (#8388)
And if BJ didn't exist in casinos, the slot machines would be even busier than they already are. Ditto for the other games.
Heroes
Posted by Sentry on 30-May-2004 10:27:43 (#8447)
Mayor, your comments are dead on. Without the kind of ongoing publicity the press has given Thorp, Uston, Hyland, the MIT team and others, I doubt that many of us would be here today. When giving coverage to counters, the story the press sells is: "David Slays Goliath". The public pays little attention to the details necessary to get the job done- they hear "Blackjack can be beaten!" and they race off to the tables. Only a tiny fraction of these novices will eventually go on to become advantage players. Casino profits generated from the publicity of counters, are far, far greater than the dollars extracted from counters themselves.
Sentry
Re: Heroes *NM*
Posted by aceking29 on 31-May-2004 17:51:17 (#8462)
Re: Why...
Posted by Learning to count on 27-May-2004 16:59:52 (#8404)
""I totally (and respectfully) disagree with your post and am more inclined to agree with Automatic Monkey (sorry to lump you in with me AM).
Advantage players certainly have some rights (basic courtesy, no injuries, etc) but from the casino's perspective, and the ways the laws are written, casinos can refuse service to people they feel have an advantage over the house. I think its unfair they can do this but life is often unfair, as I'm sure your parents have taught you.
To think that APs are good for business is just delusional. Ploppies to do not play BJ because they see some players (presumably APs) winning. They are either there to have a good time (to most APs losing money is not a good time but that is what separates us from ploppies), the excitement, the chance to be a bigshot (as opposed to their normally mundane lives), the chance to win big (its all luck anyway, in their minds), and a wide variety of psychological and financial reasons). They are not there, I repeat, because they see other people winning.""
They are there because of need! They hope down deep to become rich. Second they want to be a star. Vegas supplies this. Vegas feeds the need and serves up attention like a pizza to starving ethiopians. When they see us win they think they can do it too. We feed the addiction for us and them. Our addiction is for the same things they crave we just get more of it even if the edge is between 1-3.4 percent.
""Advantage players do not deserve "compensation" for their efforts. APs are still gamblers. They just are gamblers with a slight advantage over the house in the "long run." Even the "best" APs have had long runs (even a year or more) when they are net losers. The game, especially as constructed today, is very hard to beat. APs don't deserve anything.""
Your right we should not get paid by the casinos we take enough of their stolen profits. We should be left alone to play without harrasment. We have a right to play just like the suckers.
"I still maintain that the original post is not brilliant, but has some value as a cute, satirical post."
Thats your oppinion but it was an excellent point that needed to be brought out. By the way your statement;
"casinos can refuse service to
people they feel have an
advantage over the house."
...is wrong. By law any legal Nevada business can refuse any customer. They do not need a reason. If they choose a reason the reason has to be limited to certain documented reasons such as mafia/organized crime persons listed on the casino blacklist or known convicted criminals who are by court banned to be in any Nevada casino.
No where is there a law that states that they have the right to throw you out because you are a winner! This is at this time is still in limbo. Uston brought this out and won in New Jersey. It was to be litigated in Nevada but he was murdered or overdosed or was taken away by aliens before he could return to challenge the then casino industry. Too bad for AP's! Please read the court records from Ken Uston's case. Then maybe this urban legal legend of a Casinos right to throw AP's out by law will stop being promoted.
You know this is a current issue with ignorant casino people who imagine they know the law! Revereman with all respectful humbleness are you a Casino person?????
"Having written all that, thank you, Mayor for having a well-run site where we can (hopefully intelligently) debate these and other issues. "
You dont have to patronize his excellency he knows where your coming from.
Re: Why...
Posted by revereman on 28-May-2004 10:41:36 (#8420)
I've been called a lot of things in my life but never a casino employee. No, I am not a casino employee. I was not spreading any urban legends and did not write that the casinos had to give the player a reason for their action. I simply wrote that they can kick you out (in LV anyway) for winning or having a perceived advantage over the house. As I'm sure you know, Uston had a pyrrhic victory in AC. I imagine conditions in AC would have deteriorated anyway, but Uston sure sped up the process.
An Iraqi Sniper
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 27-May-2004 13:50:42 (#8396)
is a hero to his people, but a pain in the American's putooty. We are hero's in our own eyes, and can fill a small room with our fans (been to the latest green chip party?), while we are a pain in the casinos ass, and the hero's they use to draw in the fans are guys like Ziggy and Roy. We don't owe the dealer anything, and the casino doesn't owe us anything either. Since we are sportsmen like players, we normally will tip, even tho on the small side perhaps, but we can get comped for putting in the action. If you really are a good bj player you will get away with making money on top of this. Since the casino may not be sportsman like and toss you for winning, your gov't says they have that right. Live with it and stop crying, or DO something about it. You've got a better chance at lowering the price of gas.
The guy plucked the A string and you hear a chorus of other sounds that make you happy. That's great, but it is not POM in any respectable way. It's like giving a reward to a librarian for farting out loud. Don't turn this board into a farting contest. I know we haven't had any amazing posts in a long time, but this is not the way to go about it. Compare it to the other POM's. How does that compare to an Alienated post? Like giving Richard Simons an honourary membership to the Marines. YOU GO GIRL!
It is a funny post, and that's it.
Re: Why...
Posted by Inskipp on 27-May-2004 18:57:54 (#8408)
Respectfully, Mr. Mayor, I disagree.
The PERCEPTION that the game is beatable is very important to the ploppies. But the game actually BEING beatable is not.
Bad penetration, CSMs, and 6/5 are spreading because the PERCEPTION is that those games still are beatable. First the 6/5 was single decks on the strip; then it was some double decks; and now it has invaded downtown. I am sad to predict that soon shoes will be 6/5 all over Las Vegas, and card counting will be transformed from bb gun to a waste of time.
(Hole carding, shuffle tracking, and other advanced methods that still could work are so unknown to the general public that they have no effect on the perception).
No, we are no longer necessary to them. We did our part by spreading the word that the game could be beaten. It is now so ingrained in American thought, through books, movies, and TV that the game can be beaten, that 6/5, CSM, etc. will not dampen the ploppies' ardor.
Re: Why...
Posted by John on 29-May-2004 00:44:39 (#8431)
Sadly, on my recent trip, I found some games that were paying even money for blackjacks. That is even worse than 6:5.
It is getting to the point where I have to ask the dealer how much is paid for blackjacks when I sit down.
re:Should Dealers Toke Counters?
Posted by aceking29 on 31-May-2004 19:29:57 (#8467)
well as usual most of your post is B.S....
dealers arent sent home for lack of business.they are afforded the
opportunity to leave if they want to.
shill,thats a hoot.ploppies will come no matter if you are there or not.
bodyguard,plllease....
therapist.now thats funny!most counters i deal to are so lost trying to
figure -1 or +1 they would not even know their own name!let alone carry on a
conversation any dealer would care about.
advertising,yep hey i just won 8 in a row pressing each time and never toked
a cent but still expect the dealer to keep up the %75 pen,hahaha you wish!
diplomat,or did you say dip stick. the last thing a floor person is going
to consider is what another player is going to say about anothers' hand.and
the only write up we dealers might have to worry about is,whether or not we
recognized the fact you are counting and taken the proper steps according to
each houses' policies.oh and for the toking counters,that recognition seems to
take considerably longer for them.
Goodwill Ambassador.now thats really crap because counters squeal the loudest when your average joe takes the bust card.half the time you do what you can to chase away players.
so even though you spent days on your post i think if you read you can see
you are still full of i t !
Math Quiz
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 26-May-2004 11:27:20 (#8353)
If a single deck game with good penetration with these rules:
H17 with a 1:4 spread using High Low and the Ill 18
gives you an EV of 1.3%, a SCORE of 88.41, with a minimum number of hands
to realize this of 11,280, see http://www.bjstats.com/bjre.asp
Re: Math Quiz
Posted by zengrifter on 26-May-2004 14:56:48 (#8362)
and you have to play 800 hands to keep whats left?
-----------------------
Re: Math Quiz
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 26-May-2004 20:17:07 (#8373)
800 hands of $2 or $1600. I'm not sure SCORE will work with this, like using a fork to measure two teaspoons of sugar. ;>
Re: Math Quiz DUNNO...
Posted by zengrifter on 27-May-2004 15:10:15 (#8400)
... what the SCORE/DI would be, but it certainly is NOT necessary to play 800 hands if $1600 is the action requirement - why not play 160hands @ $10 and incur a higher variance (less time consuming)? zg
Re: Math Quiz DUNNO...
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 27-May-2004 20:20:27 (#8409)
Yes, the higher variance is okay fine for most players, but some newbies don't understand this. Time is everything, and that is why for the most part now I bet it all on the first hand and that cuts my play time down significantly. I'll have to brush up on SCORE again. Thanks G for your comments. We are more players than mathnerds. ;>
The Comp Club
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 27-May-2004 01:14:19 (#8380)
Six retired gentlemen sit down at a $10 table in Atlantic City (or any other large venue) every week and play blackjack. They don't spread, but they count and play the playing indexes. And they play very, very slowly...
"I can't read my hand. What is it? 15? Are you sure it's 15?"
"How many decks are in there again?"
"Wait, let me get my glasses."
"Can we make this a smoking table, I want a cigarette."
"Can I double down on 3 cards?"
"Hey that card is bent I want new decks."
Bet they could get it down to 20 hands per hour or less. And making a heck of a lot of profit in comps, in a decent place. With comps becoming less discretionary and more player's card, f(time at table, average bet) oriented, this sounds like a worthwhile form of advantage play too especially if you like the casino entertainment and lifestyle.
Re: The Comp Club
Posted by revereman on 27-May-2004 08:42:17 (#8385)
Great scenario, and entirely possible, except the $10 table part in AC. :)
BANNED
Posted by John on 27-May-2004 02:23:30 (#8381)
It happened.
On my last trip, I got banned. It is my first. I won't say where but it caught me by surprise. I guess I have just been aggressive as hell and well, it paid off. In my first month as a green chipper, I made almost 10,000 dollars. I made half of my brother's yearly salary in one month. I can tell you, it left my brother in awe since he doesn't believe that one can play blackjack well enough to make money at it.
The ban actually made me upset, and I didn't play the rest of the trip.
This last trip, this week, I made about 96 green units.
I only played 2 days this week because partly of burn-out and the ban thing. The first night I was down 40 units. The next day, I woke up late at about 3 pm and immediately went to work hitting the tables hard. After one hour on the tables, I was now up 80 units which meant, overall, I was up roughly 40 units. Moved on to another one and made about another 50 units. Took a long mid-day break, then very late at night gave it another go, that is when I got banned. I think I know why it happened, but if anyone else wants to describe why they were banned, it may help me.
Negatives on this trip I would have to say was the ban and getting a flat tire on the way home. Oh yeah, the motel manager shut the electricity off to the air-conditioning. It doesn't go below 75 degrees at night so I was sweating my ass off. I guess they have the power to control certain outlets while leaving the others alone. Also, everyday at the motel, I was inhaling the paint fumes coming from the remodeling of the room next door. This was the worst motel I have ever been in.
I'm taking a week off to re-evaluate my play. I was getting away with what I would call, "murder" on the tables. I just wonder if someone is going to stop me at the door at some of these places.
Sorry I missed the "toke" thread, but I sure did a lot of it on this trip. I am getting very liberal with the tips.
Did you use a players card?
Posted by Tom on 27-May-2004 04:47:35 (#8383)
I very rarely ever use one. Once you're in the system and pegged,you're screwed. Playing on different shifts,days,months,etc. is useless. I know some will say but getting a card is essential for comps,ev,demeanor and so forth,but I'd rather rather keep them puzzled. They might have my number,but they certainly dont have my name.
Re: BANNED
Posted by revereman on 27-May-2004 08:51:34 (#8387)
Congrats on your good streak and condolences on the banning.
You march right back to the casino and demand that you get paid for the time you spent at the tables (including pension benefits) because you were good for the casino. After all, you showed other people that winning was possible, you probably opened up some closed tables after a hot dealer beat everyone else, you tipped away some of your hard-earned money, and you made their employees and other players happy by providing a pleasant atmosphere.
I remember my first banning very well. On one hand, I was really pissed but on the other hand, it helped validate that I was playing a winning game. Welcome to the read world of winning BJ. It is truly a roller coaster.
In search of an alternative metaphor
Posted by The Mayor on 27-May-2004 09:25:44 (#8390)
Revereman said: "It is truly a roller coaster."
For years I have tried to think of other decent metaphors, and none seem quite as well suited...
"It is truly like surfing a big wave"
"It is truly like the weather"
Any ideas? It could greatly help improve upcomming and future blackjack literature.
--Mayor
Re: In search of an alternative metaphor
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 27-May-2004 11:22:59 (#8393)
Revereman said: "It is truly a roller coaster."
For years I have tried to think of other decent metaphors, and none seem quite as well suited...
"It is truly like surfing a big wave"
"It is truly like the weather"
Any ideas? It could greatly help improve upcomming and future blackjack literature.
--Mayor
"It is truly like the moods of my ex-girlfriend."
Alternative Metaphor
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 27-May-2004 13:10:04 (#8395)
"up and down like the shithouse seat!"
Last Trip: "An elevator with a broken cable!" *NM*
Posted by Dog Hand on 27-May-2004 22:51:20 (#8416)
Re: In search of an alternative metaphor
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 28-May-2004 02:05:45 (#8417)
(with apologies in advance to the ladies)
It's just like your pecker. Sometimes you have a huge hard-on that never goes away and it embarrasses you, sometimes you can't get it up to save your life, and there is no apparent causal relationship between this fact and objective reality. A little drinking can be a helpful part of your act, but drink too much and it is useless. It can really make you feel good, but get hit hard there and nothing feels worse. And you're glad you discovered it, but getting too obsessed with it can land you in trouble.
Re: BANNED
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 27-May-2004 09:16:07 (#8389)
Revereman is right if you are a threat to the casino you will have encounters like that. Think of it as like being a football player getting penalties; you don't want to get too many penalties, but if you never get any, you're not playing aggressively enough.
I'm curious, what form of ban was it? Were you told to play any game but blackjack (the standard), told to leave the premises and never return under threat of arrest, thrown out bodily, etc.?
Re: BANNED
Posted by ladykiller on 27-May-2004 12:56:29 (#8394)
Here's a good story. About 1 year ago last summer when my friends and I just started playing, we worshiped the "Bringing Down the House" book. I would big play and ONLY play good counts. We had no idea of ROR and were using a WAY TOO HIGH BU with 150 dollars and would spread to 3 hands, sometimes 4 if allowed. We were at a big casino in Vegas and was a few k when I gave the signal to leave. My friend who was also big playing said no. I had a bad feeling that we had overstayed our welcome. Well I get a call in, TC is +3 with 4 decks left. Sweet. Wrong! In the middle of the shoe, 15 security guards and PC's with suits ran out and started picking off everyone of my spotters and gave us the whole "You've offically been read the trespass act, blah blah blah." THey backroomed one of my friends who wasn't 21 with a fake id, but they didn't notice. Did the whole up against the whole, humiliation bit. They tried to do it to me, but I told them where to go and got the hell out of there. SInce then, I'm happy to say I haven't been kicked out of a single casino. (Thanks to having 4 different fake ids).
I can't wait until facial recognitioning gets better.
Re: BANNED
Posted by John on 27-May-2004 14:32:01 (#8397)
They told me I couldn't play table games there anymore. I wasn't read the trespass act, though.
I was tipping the dealer. Guess what, I think the dealer did me in.
Re: BANNED
Posted by John on 27-May-2004 14:36:58 (#8398)
didn't use a players card.
Re: BANNED
Posted by revereman on 27-May-2004 14:41:00 (#8399)
I guess anything is possible, and you know the circumstances better than anyone, but the dealer turning you in if you were tipping him sure seems counterintuitive. Since you seemed to be winning alot, and I think you said in your original post that you were being pretty aggressive, the chances are they were watching you. Unless you have a great act and use alot of cover, it's really not that hard for the pit or eye to identify a counter once they are a suspect.
Re: BANNED
Posted by Learning to count on 27-May-2004 16:32:30 (#8401)
The casino did you in. They were watching you win! Who gives a hoot if the dealer was tipped or not. Remember if a dealer is losing the casino will get rid of him to. Congrats on your success. Wait six months and they wont even know you! Tipping hurts the EV!
Re: BANNED
Posted by rocky on 27-May-2004 17:55:15 (#8407)
Banned from BJ is one thing..."you're welcome to play any other table game, slots, race & sports book, etc." That's the mild one. Being read the trespass act(NRS 203.200) is a lot more serious. It means the hotel/casino HAS to document the incident with A) your photo for ID purposes and B) a written incidence report for security/surveillance. Why? Because if you do return, then they have the right to call METRO and you will be cited for the first offense. Return again and you might be hauled off to the Clark County Dention Center(CCDC) which is a lovely place...some very fine citizens of Clark County can be found there. Ignore the court date and you'll be looking at a bench warrant which automatically upgrades your common misdemeanor into the felony atmosphere. Don't even think about using your fake ID when being cited by METRO, they will spot that in a second and then you'll be taking a trip to CCDC for sure and will be held until you fingerprints are verified via NCIC(National Crime Information Center...i.e. FBI).NEVER let them backroom you...never argue or protest...Nevada law gives the casino the right to decline service but for specific reasons...no ID, suspicion of underage gambling, intoxication(believe it or not!!!)...NRS also gives casino and it's employees right to "detain" people if they suspect "cheating" activity...they cannot throw you out if you're winning(see United States vs. Lester "Benny" Binion, Horseshoe Casino, et al). As to the cutting electric power to the air conditioner...why not just ask to move to another room? If not available...then why not move to another hotel/motel? Why stay in a 75 degree room and sweat? By the way, if you get 86"d via NRS 203.200, you can count on your picture being circulated via the Surveillance Information Network(SIN) to all other casinos with the query of "anyone know this player and have dealings with him?" Brother, you have just been MADE.
Re: BANNED
Posted by ladykiller on 28-May-2004 12:15:06 (#8423)
You're going overboard a bit. I've been read the trespass act at a major casino in vegas. I've played at that casino's conglomerate chain many many times under different id's and everytime, things are cool. I know I'm in sin, but you have to be a moron to not be able to notice when the PC's think something's up and start making calls. Be smart, don't stay in a place for too long, and blend in. Just because you get caught once, doesn't mean it's all over.
Re: BANNED
Posted by Tom on 29-May-2004 02:08:13 (#8434)
Very interesting how you've been 86'ed at this casino and keep returning, yet nobody has recognized(or remembers you) as being pegged. I would say you've been very lucky. Many casinos I play at would know who I am and using fake IDs would be useless.
K-O Method, Zen Grifter, and my first experience
Posted by Boardingbetter on 27-May-2004 21:35:59 (#8412)
There I was, in Vegas on a business trip of all things. Been travelling for about 20 days on this new job and needless to say, my sleep patterns were about as normal as Michael Jackson's sexual perferences. *click* *click* I'm channel-surfing like a pro at Mavericks when I happen upon the MIT Team story on the Discovery Channel.
Visions of Rainman... MIT... My SAT scores are running through my head....
F'em I hear a voice from deep inside my soul! Those bastards have been stealing my money for years! (Actually, after I learned what I did, I realize that my visions of me being Rainman are more valid than not - Casino's win, period - why didn't I realize this earlier?)
Anywho. I'm in Vegas. Now running through one of the most run-down sections of Vegas I can find due to nutty Asian cab driver dropping me off way too far away from the Gambling store. I make it there where a gentleman sets me up with the KO Book and some good advice.
I leave - we'll skip how I got back - thats another long story.
My girlfriend and I start reading the book and we both begin to hear the Rocky "Bells" ringing in the room. We practice...we learn...we train... she stands up, rips her bra of...wait.. that's another story as well....
Friday night - learn the system. Saturday night - turn 5 hunny into 4 G's. Yep, this corporate dorko got one over on those son's a bitches!
Now, here is the kicker. My counting sucked that night. I was scared and drinkin and really couldn't do it well at all. My girlfriend was much better at it. And frankly, after learning to count, learning the odds, etc. I realized that I don't have a friggin chance against these guys. I literally went to the tables and loose with a sense of empowerment. That empowerment was that I couldn't win! I understood it! I at least - had control! I knew the statistics, I knew how bad I had played previously not doubling or splitting with any sense of normalcy. I was now in the drivers seat of my own demise, and happy is how I felt.
So, I start playing. My girlfriend is counting, as she is better with the observance of details than I am. I am just playing right, and winning, some, loosing some, all the time, talking to the dealer about "Have you ever had a card counter here?" as I sip my Jack and Coke. This smileing bloke says "Well, you certainly aren't one!"
The dealer deals, everyone on the table is hitting - cards are falling like snow in Colorado - not one a face card. Six players at the table plus the dealer. Now, I am not counting but my brain says "Well, if the count was close, it just has to be there now". I take a 1 to 10 spread. BAM. Black Jack.
This non-counting technique, of watching for runs of low cards, fazed by Jack and Coke's, and basically 1 to 5 spreads, and a few hours later, I am sitting there with 2500 bucks. 5 Times my money. As the dealer is shuffling, I remembered what the MIT Team said "Get the Money out." Time to leave.
"You have a good run going" says first base
F-it I say - it takes money to make money.
500 down - my original bankrole.
A 3 sotfly lands in front of me. "Give me an 8 dealer, let's make this interesting".
My eight, compliments the three on the table, in an almost taunting fashion.
Without hesitation, I double my bet. My chip almost races the card to the table.
The dealer is showing T.
Turns over a three.
By now, the three stooges, ie. the pit bosses who seem to think my drunk ass is some sort of a threat, have circled the table like hockey players waiting for a ref to throw down a puck.
The dealer adds a T to his T3 and I win.
2500 becomes 3500 and I leave.
What a night. All thinks to a book, a man, and some luck. I do believe I played perfect blackjack, I believe I did spread my bet while trying my best to count off of strings of low cards - large strings at that - and having some fun and luck.
The next night I won another 1000 bucks. And over the next two days, gave that back.
I became much better at counting, even to the point of 'acting'. I didn't want to get caught. It actually became fun. I mean real fun. Acting like I didn't know what to do - the F-ing college kids slowly giving their money away slowly, helping me decide what to do, when...
I was honestly even when counting, and the only time I lost the grand was when I bet big, without counting, for fun. Well, that fun turned to 'Ah shit' when the dealer hit 21, 20 and oh hell, something that beat me.
I am now getting better at counting and eager to try my luck next time. All in all, this has added an entire new dimension to my gambling. It became fun, and I know where I stand. I no longer look at this as gambling, I look at this as trying to go as long as I can without getting caught, and hopefully, making some money.
Cheers,
Boarding....
Re: K-O Method, Zen Grifter, and my first experience
Posted by John on 27-May-2004 22:16:04 (#8413)
I always thought, "Get the money out", meant get the money into the circle. I saw the same show. I didn't like it though because I thought it made Mr. M seem dumb.
Good story.
Re: K-O Method, Zen Grifter, and my first experience
Posted by zengrifter on 28-May-2004 15:44:15 (#8426)
I'm not at the gambling store anymore, but I can be reached at griftzen@yahoo.com zg
Re: K-O Method, PS...
Posted by zengrifter on 28-May-2004 15:48:37 (#8427)
... here is a complete-composite matrix for KO 1-2D -
----------------
grift-KO(1-2D)
Posted By: zengrifter
Date: 5/12/04 1:44:50 p.m.
Here are my approximated/composite-type 1-2D RC indices for KO:
(feel free to recommend improvements)
INS=+3
12 /2=+4, 3=+4, 4=IRC, 5=IRC, 6=IRC
13 /2=IRC, 3=IRC
15 /9=+9, 10=+4, A=+8
16 /9=+6, 10=KC, A=+7
8 /3=+8, 4=+6, 5=+4, 6=+4
9 /2=+4, 7=+4
10 /10=+4, A=+4
11 /10=IRC, A=KC
A6 /2=KC
A7 /2=KC
A8 /4=+4, 5=KC, 6=KC
A9 /5=+4, 6=+4
XX /5=+4, 6=+4
SUR:
88 /9=+2, 10=+2, A=+2
16 /8=+5, 9=0, 10=IRC, A=IRC
15 /8=+7, 9=+4, 10=0, A=+3
14 /10=+4, A=+5
FAKE I.D.'s Anyone?.....
Posted by phantom007 on 27-May-2004 22:29:37 (#8415)
Not exactly BJ, but several times on this site and other venues, I have posted/requested info. on "How to obtain a fake I.D. for BJ purposes". My posts have been answered with recommendations to attend to various website "stores" of questionable morals....HeHeHe!....I want a "Fake I.D." and I question their morals? Of course, I am not out to defraud anyone, I just seek the right to "keep playing BJ" after I am told to "NOT keep playing BJ".
Anyhow, the following was printed in the Springfield (MO) News-Leader on the date of 5/26/04:
HEADLINE: "3 at SMS (Southwest Mo. State Univ.) accused of making fake I.D.'s".
sub-Heading: "Alleged forgers arrested; customers could be cited for misdemeanors."
ARTICLE (by Andrew Tangel, and paraphrased/edited by phantom007) as follows:
"Springfield police have busted 3 ID-production operations at SMSU, arresting alleged forgers, and citing some of their customers for possessing fake ID's, a misdemeanor charge.
"One notable dorm room operation included a computer, laminator, silkscreen, paint, and other tools the 19 year-old student used to produce fake Illinois driver's licenses, which he typically sold for $40-a-pop."
(ph7: DAMN, I was prepared to pay $500. cash!)
"It was fairly elaborate," police said, adding that authorities hope to deter future fake-ID producers. Police added that possession of fake ID's is one of the more common alcohol-related violations committed at SMS.
(ph7 adds: Most of my violations are also alcohol-related, i.e., reverting to Progressive BJ, Fondling Waitresses' Saline-filled Tits, etc.).
"Fake ID's have become noticeably more sophisticated in the last few years" said K.P., local liquor store clerk.
"There are some good ones", said K.P. "There are some you almost laugh at" he added, "but some fakes are so sophisticated that 'it scares the hell out of you'".
(ph7....YES....$500 Cash for the 'scare the hell' variety).
The recent seizures and arrests--one in late April and two in early May--highlight slicker tactics minors use to buy liquor or get into bars, and the challenges authorities face in stamping out underage drinking.
(ph7: How about middle-aged CC's?).
Prosecutor D.M. said late Tuesday that he expected his office to file charges in coming weeks, and suggested that more prolific ID producers could face a felony charge of forgery.
(ph7: GOOD, once their names and addresses are published in the paper, then I will know where to find them).
Some activists say that the problem can lead to alcoholism early in life.
(pH7: or Advantage Play later in life).
College Administrators acros the country have taken aim at the problem to prevent excessive boozing.
(pH7: I would be another 10-20K AHEAD, if CASINOS had prevented excesive boozing...GRIN!).
M.H., executive director of the Community Partership of the Ozarks,
(pH7: What in the F#CK is THAT?)
called shutting down the fake-ID operation a 'major coup' in the effort against underage drinking, but suggested that the issue is bigger than a couple of college kids with computers.
(pH7: Yes YOU Lesbian Bitch, the PROBLEM is BIGGER! I make $300k/yr. in my regular job, and after the IRS is done with my ASS, I have to spread Red-to-Green! Over the last 3 years, I am ahead $3k playing BJ. THIS IS WRONG...THIS IS SIMPLY WRONG!).
phantom007.
Re: FAKE I.D.'s Anyone?.....
Posted by ladykiller on 28-May-2004 12:12:10 (#8422)
The best way to get ahold of a fake id is go back to college. I go to college and so do all of my friends at other schools. We all know someone who makes fake Id's. Ask a cousin or a friend with a college kid, tell them you'll give them 50 bucks on the side for the favor, or buy them some beer. THe story you gave surprised me that the kids were only charging 40 bucks a piece. I have both made and now buy fake id's and have never seen them (decent ones) that cheap. It's like anything, shop around. It took me a while, but now I can get CA ones with holograms, that scan for 100 a piece. That's a typical price. By the way, casinos aren't too good at spotting fake id's. I've used some pretty crapy ones in the past with no problems checking into rooms, getting comps, even showing them to pit crew. (PS never show when getting booted or to metro). Vegas sees people from all over the states, so as long as the id is from somewhere other than CA or NV, they won't really know what to look for, or will they even bother.
Ps:
I make $300k/yr. in my regular job, and after the IRS is done with my ASS, I have to spread Red-to-Green! Over the last 3 years, I am ahead $3k playing BJ. THIS IS WRONG...THIS IS SIMPLY WRONG
Re: FAKE I.D.'s Anyone?.....HOW to
Posted by zengrifter on 28-May-2004 18:38:12 (#8429)
We all know someone who makes fake Id's
-----------------------
As I've said, "fakeIDs" ie counterfits are NOT desireable. NOVELTY IDs are easy to make - start with CorelDraw and scan in a DL, then change the colors and wording to render non-counterfit NOVELTY. For example, change "Motor Vehicle Services" to "Motor Services Vehicle", change wording on back to read "has the right to count cards at BJ at any state-legal casino" etc. zg
Novelty ID
Posted by Royam on 06-Jun-2004 17:11:53 (#8608)
I did not know that changing the card sufficiently makes it not considered not to be a fake ID. Does it mean that, if the changes are sufficient, you can legally present such ID? and if so, how much change is required? Just asking, because I like the idea of taking the money of the casinos legally... and the whole picture suffers from having to carry a falsified ID.
Royam
Re: FAKE I.D.'s Anyone?.....
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 28-May-2004 13:55:49 (#8424)
I don't think you need a very good fake ID. You're going to need one when you get a player's card and no one is going to be really paying attention then. And you might need one if you are cashing in comps, and no one will be really paying attention. The girls at the player's club booth and the buffet are not looking for advantage players and they are just told "check everyone's ID". Other than these two times you shouldn't even need to have the ID in your possession. And of course you will NEVER show this ID to casino security, a cop, the cashier's cage, or anyone who is hassling you.
Re: FAKE I.D.'s Anyone?.....
Posted by zengrifter on 28-May-2004 15:40:41 (#8425)
Any halfway decent looking NOVELTY ID will still work for player-cards, no need to risk carrying counterfit DLs. zg
Cashing out question
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 02-Jun-2004 10:54:36 (#8515)
I'm going to vegas for the first time next month. (Mayors Podium this month is great) I have only played in Conn a dozen times, and Missouri one very small session. I am thinking about getting a Novelty ID to use while I am there to obtain players cards\comps. I am concerned that if I use a card under an alias with the novelty ID, I will run into problems cashing out. I wouldn't want to use it at the cashier, like it was previously stated in this thread not to do so. If was to use my real ID to cash out, would that cause suspicion too? I am only a red chip player, so I don't think that they are not sweating my play. Suggestions?
Not a problem for you
Posted by Sonny on 02-Jun-2004 11:06:11 (#8517)
Since you are a red chipper you should not need ID to cash out at the cage. I have been playing reds in Vegas for several years and I have never been asked for ID at the cage. The highest I have ever cashed in for is $500 at one time.
If you did have a HUGE winning session and you want to play it safe you can just cash in on another shift. The new crew won't know about your fake alias so you can use your real ID if they ask.
-Sonny-
For what,comps?
Posted by Tom on 29-May-2004 01:39:45 (#8433)
It's not that difficult for anyone to acquire a fake I.D if they have a desire or need to do so.
Just because you think you'll get backed off at some sweaty casino does not mean you now have to get a fake I.D. I would not use a fake one unless absolutely necessary. Getting free food,comps,coupons using aliases seem to be more of a benefit for many. Of course they would rather quest for other reasons,but I think I really know why these fake I.D's seem to have a popular interest other than one would think....All those COUPONS!
If(or when) you start getting barred all over the place it may be time to consider it,but in the meantime I would not let it bother you. In today's world of risk, getting caught with a fake ID may be worst than not having an ID at all!
Re: For what,comps?
Posted by The Mayor on 29-May-2004 12:04:26 (#8435)
Once you start putting down significant $$$ on a bet, you will get noticed -- an ID is essential to avoid heat.
Re: For what,comps?
Posted by ladykiller on 29-May-2004 14:41:40 (#8436)
I agree with the Mayor. You guys are crazy riduculous to think that you don't need a fake id. WHen you start betting black, they will hound you until you get a players card. If you don't, they will immediately call upstairs to "check this guy out." Plus, you need the fake id to cash out your chips if you have over 1k or whatever the requirement is at that specific casino. Case in point: I got read the trespass act at a place, played there a year later, had 5k in chips. It was stupid of me to try to cash out all 5k at once, but they asked for id, gave them my REAL one, and had a whole hell of a lot of trouble; they have to know who you are, where you got those chips, and why the f*ck don't you have a player's card. Besides, at big places with lots of people, once you start winning a lot of money, you need a new id, because red flags come up in their reports after you've played a certain amount of time and are out of the standard deviation. Casinos have a theoretical win which is based on how they rate your playing abilities and average bet. IF you're over that by a considerable amount after a while, reports come up. Changing id's eliminates that. But if you're only betting green at a big casino, you don't really have to worry as much. A smaller casino you do, but at a smaller casino, there's less floor and a higher chance of them recognizing you. So figure out what you need more.
Re: For what,comps?
Posted by Tom on 30-May-2004 08:02:26 (#8446)
There are many good excuses and loops you can use if the pit ask you about a players card,i'll leave it to your imagination. I've never had to show an ID for winning only a $1000 bucks,dont know what casinos you're talking about.
Why in the heck would you go back to a casino that 86'ed you and cash out 5K all at one time if you knew they would ID you,did you get arrested too?
Re: For what,comps?
Posted by Tom on 30-May-2004 07:48:27 (#8445)
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Is it because you feel there is a need to use a fake ID for a players card and I must always get one if betting significant bucks?
Re: For what,comps?
Posted by ladykiller on 31-May-2004 12:52:03 (#8453)
First off, I got 86'd using a different name with a fake id. I went back with my real id. Of course I did not get arrested. And yes, if you're betting significant amounts of money, it is an automatic red flag if you refuse to get a player's card. That makes them think that you may be not allowed to play there and don't want to be tracked. If you've ever played at a casino with black, you know what I'm talking about. Sometimes you can get away with it on a busy night at a Caesar's or Mandalay Bay, Bellagio, or Venetian. But on the whole, (and I'm very good at cover and acting to decieve PC's), it will just cause problems if you don't get a card. Besides, if you rotate id's, you will not give attention to yourself, and will get a lot of $$ in comps. I never pay for my room when I go to LV and always get lots of free food. Using fake Id's simply help to alleviate one extra potential problem in being caught.
*
Posted by Tom on 01-Jun-2004 00:11:27 (#8474)
Excuse my ignorance,but if you got 86'ed using a fake ID then why were you in big trouble using your real ID,did you get caught using 2 different ID's or something?
I think you're freaking out over player cards,they may actually be your worst enemy,NOT your best friend. Under certain conditions it may be neccesary to get a card, but certainly not all conditions. Using 10 different false identification cards is also not a good idea unless absolutely necessary. Let's face it most of us(including yourself) are not Hyland's and Uston's.
If you think simply not getting or using a players card will get you heat and so forth, then try getting caught using fake ID's and see what that does for you....talk about a RED FLAG.
I know an inexperenced card counter who recently started playing BJ about a year ago, he thought "Well,since I'm now a pro I need to get some fake ID's to keep from getting barred."...boy did he, a whole sh*tload. He then thought he'd do it the PROS way(in his own mind) and used his phoney ID's at the same casinos to avoid heat(and get some,pssss..coupons). He had matchplays,tournament coupons,free buffets,comps,etc. coming out his a$$. He eventually got caught using coupons under different aliases and was in deep sh*t. Needless to say he was kicked out of many casinos and is probably in the Griffin book. Furthermore, his 86's was not from card counting. He was a terrible card counter,the funny thing about it is, he tells(or brags?) to people that he's been 86ed from casinos because he's a professional even though he reluctantly admitted getting kicked out for using alias coupons. He's quite a funny character.
I was hoping it would not come to this and thought you might be able to read bet-ween the lines in my previous post. Anyway, whatever suits your needs and good luck in your future en-"counters":)
dual ID's
Posted by ed vantage on 01-Jun-2004 09:15:45 (#8481)
Do the pit critters ever notice you give them a differant ID? ("Tom Smith? I thought you were Andy Jones." etc.)
ed
Gambling taxes in Wisconsin *LINK*
Posted by ed_vantage on 28-May-2004 09:12:31 (#8418)
Interesting article in the "Wisconsin State Journal" (Madison, WI) yesterday. Link below
Looking at every card as it's dealt
Posted by Dschddny on 28-May-2004 10:51:47 (#8421)
I was reading how some people don't start counting until the 1st base player gets their second card, and then they count the cards in pairs. I happen to count every card as it is dealt. Thus, I am watching EVERY SINGLE CARD getting dealt. Even after I bust, I continue to watch every single card get dealt. Is this flagging me as a counter no matter how much "cover" I employ in other ways? I try to act disinterested as I watch every card, but I am still staring.
If it feels good, do it.
Posted by Titaniumman on 28-May-2004 16:50:34 (#8428)
I usually count the cards in pairs as the second card hits first base, but that's just a matter of preference.
Do what feels comfortable for you, as long as you're not obvious. Maybe, since so many of us count them in pairs, you are going to be less suspicious looking.
Re: If it feels good, do it.
Posted by Ryguy on 28-May-2004 18:53:54 (#8430)
I find it much easier and less taxing to count cards in pairs.... However, I rarely play face up games anymore. As a result, I count in pairs and trips when people throw in their busted hands. Also, when the dealer has BJ, if you're ony used to counting one at a time in a face down game you may not be able to count all the hands as they are thrown in. Most people are interested in the second card as it comes out. If you stare then you won't be spotted. If you look like you are tracking EVERY card as it comes out then maybe.........
Re: Looking at every card as it's dealt
Posted by Tom on 29-May-2004 01:11:48 (#8432)
Your using a single card running count,which I used to do, but now I just count the cards in pairs. You might call it a double card running count. The reason being is (for me) it takes less energy,not because I think I might look more like a card counter using a single card running count. If you notice most ploppies watch the dealer anyhow,it's the natural thing to do,...after all,in a sense the dealer is the entertainer. I feel that keeping a running count is the best way(professional way) to stay ahead of the game and actually looks more natural than the newbie who tries to count all the cards when players are making decisions. A running count gives me a head start because I'm already there. I dont have to "back track",which looks much more counterish than a running count.
Re: Looking at every card as it's dealt
Posted by ladykiller on 29-May-2004 14:46:48 (#8437)
The key is to not move your head as the cards are dealt. Try and keep your head pointing at your cards or tilted off to somewhere else. Keep the count with your eyes, don't move your head/body as the cards fly out. Also try speed counting a table of cards that are out, just after the dealer finishes dealing, before 1st base has a chance to act. This will also help you when trying to back count shoes as it is essential to count a lot of cards quickly to not appear to be a back counter.
a simple solution
Posted by Tom on 30-May-2004 07:38:14 (#8444)
Sitting at either end (or next to the end) of the table will avoid head bobbing,besides who likes being stuck in the middle:) I sure dont. If you're also a poker player (I am) you'll notice many players also watch the dealer when pitching cards. There's nothing that strange about it.
The best seat.
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 30-May-2004 22:38:54 (#8448)
The most advantageous seat is one position up stream from 3rd base. 1) The "tennis match" head turning problem is eliminated. 2) The pack gets dealt deeper before having to make play decisions. 3) There is a left and right side option for spreading to 2 or 3 hands when the time is right.
Is there a statistical advantage to 3rd base? *NM*
Posted by Gibbs on 30-May-2004 23:30:59 (#8450)
Not enough to be worthwhile *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 01-Jun-2004 11:41:07 (#8491)
Re: The best seat.
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 31-May-2004 00:01:59 (#8451)
There's something to be said for that. But I like the first base side. It makes it easier for me to see cards in the shoe. Sometimes I can see a bunch of cards at the end of the shoe when the dealer puts them in after the shuffle, and sometimes I can see a card when the cut card is inserted.
Re: The best seat.
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 31-May-2004 08:23:10 (#8452)
Good point. 1B is certainly the place to be while on shoe with a sloppy D.
Always nice when you know you're first card is going to be an ace.
Re: Looking at every card as it's dealt
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 29-May-2004 19:48:40 (#8440)
Funny, I have no set way of counting anymore. Sometimes I count as dealt, sometimes it's pairs. The only time I find myself counting every card as it's dealt is if there is a screamin' fast dealer. I think this is a vestigial reflex from when I couldn't count very fast, and the cards could be swept away before I finished on a dealer natural. This is true of the shoe games I most often play.
Pitch games I always count a card the instant I see it. But I can't play them very often.
However, I will be digging into some nice SD and DD games very soon. I really need the practice with those buggers. My prediction... The first time the dealer gets and Ace up at +1 or +2, I will fail to take insurance... also, I will put out a high bet at least once when it's time to shuffle. The self-directd anger of these bone-headed moves will fuel an awareness for the rest of the day that will keep me from doing it again. This happens to me every single trip away from shoe-land. Even when I make a point of being aware of it beforehand.
-Felix
Re: Looking at every card as it's dealt
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 29-May-2004 21:54:46 (#8441)
I too play mostly shoe and have to do a lot of compensation when I go to a pitch game, especially SD. SD is totally different, different indexes and BS, different spreads. However occasionally putting a big bet out on a shuffle hand is not the end of the world, probably worth it for the cover.
My Opinion
Posted by SammyBoy on 01-Jun-2004 10:54:18 (#8485)
I know that many floor people do watch players to see if they are watching the cards or not. Some ploppies only look at their cards and the dealers. Some ploppies look at all the cards. All card counters look at all the cards. My advice to you would be to learn to count in pairs. It is much easier to count that way and it allows you to look at things happening around you as the first cards are dealt out.
Remember...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 30-May-2004 23:23:46 (#8449)
that thread where people were joking about the black chips at the Western?
Well guess what!
-Felix
Okay I'll bite...what happened???????????!!!!!! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 31-May-2004 15:44:23 (#8454)
I Just...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 31-May-2004 20:37:33 (#8469)
thought I would simply mention that they now exist.
Some were concerned about what would happen to the place once Barrick took them over. If they would change things, or attempt to make the place a bit nicer at some cost. This may be a sign of something that.
Got RO7 with 2 to 3 others, so that is still good.
-Felix
They are going to renovate, expand it
Posted by Brillo on 31-May-2004 20:50:52 (#8470)
and turn it into a Latino-themed 'resort.'This is what Barrick plans to do. I guess that means Sonny's free sanck-bar chilli dogs will turn into free burritos.
Man,
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 31-May-2004 23:35:49 (#8471)
That's scarry, I hope the game at least stays the same.
There was a really, really old drunk guy at my table there. He had a tremendous stack of those new gold $1 tokens piled up in front of him. He asked the dealer for "some quarters" and started to tool around in the pile with his arthritic hands. I thought: "Wow... a Western high roller colorin' up to green". But he didn't mean it in the vernacular. He pulled out a single 1 dollar token and wanted 4 quarters(25 cent pieces) so he could tip the dealer 25 cents. What an awesome place!
-Felix
As far as changing the game...
Posted by Brillo on 01-Jun-2004 00:01:36 (#8473)
I talked to a dealer who works at the Plaza and she told me in her severly broken English that Barrick made some changes in the way blackjack is dealt there. For double-deck and shoe, evidently the rule before was always to place the cut card right in the center of the decks.
Now, she says they've installed a notched discard rack where the cut card is insterted about 20 cards from the bottom. Shoe games are now dealt until a deck and half is left. She said she has already run out of cards a few times since players can now split any card except Aces as many times as they like.
Get this, she also said that they brought out new layouts that said dealer stands on all 17's. But everyone began to complain about how this is bad for the house so they haven't put them on yet and she thinks they sent them back to get redone as they still have the old layouts.
So, I would guess that Barrick is not going to change the games for the worse at the Western. Heck, they can't be any chintzier than Jackie G. That fellow wrote the book on cheap.
Nice changes!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Jun-2004 17:52:25 (#8496)
DD down to 20 cards? We will rock them.
I think casinos...
Posted by Brillo on 01-Jun-2004 22:02:59 (#8505)
Would make more money off of thin cuts. I'm not math maven, but I would think the decrease in shuffling would result in a fairly substantial number of extra hands during a busy shift. I don't think counters could conunteract this, not enough of them.
Better penetration
Posted by Sonny on 02-Jun-2004 10:55:50 (#8516)
> I'm not math maven, but I would think the decrease in shuffling would result
> in a fairly substantial number of extra hands during a busy shift. I don't
> think counters could conunteract this, not enough of them.
You're exactly right. EVERYONE at the tables THINKS that they know how to play perfectly. You would be AMAZED at the number of people who THINK they can count cards. Many of people at the blackjack tables have read the books and understand how a counting system works, but they simply can't do it.
Maybe they read Jerry Patterson's work, which teaches card counting and shuffle tracking but then veers off into the "new pathway" of dealer-biases and progression betting. From there they may become aware of John Patrick's work (who's early books also advocate card counting but quickly go astray) or Bobby Singer or any of the other con men. There poor players never have a chance!
Of maybe they read about the MIT team or Ken Uston, then practice Hi-Low for a few hours and rush off to the casino. They may get off to a lucky start, but they simply don't have the skill to get the advantage.
Other times they practice for months and get very good at counting but then play in terrible games. Their skills are adequate but they will still not get any real advantage. I don't know of any blackjack book that talks about SF21, 6:5 blackjack or "fake DD" games anywhere.
Many of the few remaining counters that do learn the skills and play good games still don't understand proper bankroll management or bet sizing. They may play with a minimal bet spread that doesn't give them an advantage in the multi-deck games. Or perhaps they don't understand the crucial concept of risk-of-ruin. These players will be playing with an advantage but they will still go broke eventually because of simple variance.
When the casino trolls see huge message boards like this filled with players who know a lot about beating the game they get nervous. But in reality, there are not this many people wo are successful counters. Click on the "View User Profiles" link above. You will certainly recognize several of those names as good players, but the majority of those profiles are people who don't even post here. Some of them are "lurkers" who are learning from our discussions without asking any questions, but most of them are people who went broke or gave up on blackjack. The casualties in this game are enormous. Next time you Wong into a hot shoe, think about the players who were there for that negative run a few minutes ago. Chances are they were once a "Mikey Vegas" or a "KO Counter" (No offense to those players, I was just picking names at random).
The list of active APs is actually faily small compared to the list of "wanna be" counters or "think-I-can" counters. The casinos won't be going out of business anytime soon regardless of their penetration.
-Sonny-
Mmmmmmm, Burritos! *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 01-Jun-2004 11:29:29 (#8490)
Re: Remember...
Posted by Sonny on 31-May-2004 16:25:27 (#8455)
> Remember that thread where people were
> joking about the black chips at the Western?
>
> Well guess what!
>
> -Felix
Yeah, now try to cash them in! The cage calls the pit for even a single green chip. They'll probably call their stockholders for a black one!
I have about 5-10 greenies from them laying around my house right now. I always pocket a few before I color up (to keep my rating in good standing, and to keep those free dinners coming!). The problem is, I never get a chance to come back on another shift to cash out the extra ones. It doesn't really count as EV if your winnings aren't in useable currency. The more I play, the more I win - the more I win, the more I hide - the more I hide, the less I earn.
I'll probably end up cashing them in at another casino (Plaza, LV Club, the Spike). Any advice/warnings about doing this?
-Sonny-
Ewwwww .....
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 31-May-2004 16:59:38 (#8456)
Carrying around green chips from the Western could be considered transporting hazardous materials.
Just take them to the cage and cash em. Let them have a hissy and make their phone calls.
Hazardous materials
Posted by Sonny on 01-Jun-2004 11:27:27 (#8489)
> Carrying around green chips from the Western could be considered
> transporting hazardous materials.
The old pea-soup green quarter chips are a thing of the past. Barrick has bought brand new chips for all of their properties (Western and LVC at least. I haven't checked the Plaza, although with the new penetration notches I might take a look). The new chips are completely redesigned with that cheesy "retro" look that Barrick is so fond of. Even the cards are completely new (and reportedly of terrible quality, according to several dealers). I'm a little disappointed since one of my excuses for jumping my bets all the time was that the chips were stuck together!
Don't worry, the filthy brown quarters at the El Cotex are still being used (and are still VERY contageous).
-Sonny-
Cheques are filthy
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Jun-2004 14:57:11 (#8495)
It's true, and I take very seriously washing my hands between handling them and eating. Just like money, except the sleaziness of the casino population is somewhat worse than the general population. At the casino, I wash my hands BEFORE I go the bathroom.
Cashing in your ratholes
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 31-May-2004 18:25:31 (#8466)
Yes I do the same thing, brought home as many as $1200 in green and black. That's when I bring my girlfriend, have her play roulette for a few minutes then go cash my stack in.
Sometimes when I was having a really good night I'd be ratholing like a panicked rat, trying to show a loss when I am up 50+ units. But then I read something about it on Snyder's site, just rathole your EV. They look for long, long term profit, not an occasional great night. Plus if I try to show too much of a loss they might see that my play does not reflect that and that could set off an alarm too.
Skim
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Jun-2004 07:13:30 (#8479)
In the past I used to just cash my profits off, not the entire buy in, but that was when I was playing every weekend when I had the fire for the felt. I had a 10K roll and 5K was in chips. I got a bit of a scare when they changed their chips because someone had found a way to forge them. I got rid of them okay fine, but back then getting stuck with 5K worth of souvenir black n purple chips would have been a heart breaker.
Free dinners at the Western???
Posted by Brillo on 31-May-2004 19:39:57 (#8468)
Oh man, let me guess, the chilli dog or the greasy hamburger and stale fries?
Now You Know
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Jun-2004 07:14:54 (#8480)
how Barfarkel got his nick name Barfy. ;>
Actually, surprisingly good food
Posted by Sonny on 01-Jun-2004 11:17:21 (#8488)
It is actually a lot better than one would expect. They have a few deli sandwiches and burgers, or you can get a full meal (usually fried chicken or something like that with potatoes, corn, pie). It's not bad for cafeteria-style food. It's also a good place to run into dealers on their breaks.
Of course, it's not really the kind of place you would want to be around dinner time, or ANYTIME after dusk. That's another reason I have trouble cashing their chips on different shifts. Maybe I'll have to park the car out front and do a late night drive-by cashout. It looks way too suspicious to always use chips from my pocket instead of buying in.
-Sonny-
western vittles...
Posted by gehrig on 01-Jun-2004 11:45:08 (#8492)
the chicken fingers ain't bad; the stuffed peppers repeat on you. the hamburgers are okay but those special orders take awhile. the two-fer comp tickets aren't tough to find; occasionally some homeless dude will have one for sale outside. lowest price seems to be $2-$3. that's not bad for 2 x $4.95 daily special meals. last time i was given a western comp ticket, i asked the dude..."like can you make it out for bellagio ?".
rather than the western lunch counter, the better stop on the route is the 'cortez coffee shop. the prime rib special seems to have been replaced by a t-bone deal.
the gold spike counter fixin's are weak, other than the breakfast, if you can score a freebie coupon.
Can You Cash Them at Another Casino? *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 01-Jun-2004 10:47:47 (#8484)
Practice Simulations?
Posted by Boarding on 31-May-2004 23:37:49 (#8472)
I know they are probably onlhere, but does anyone have a favorite practice game that tracks the count as you play and then you can see the count every so often to see if you are right or not?
Boarding...
practice software
Posted by zengrifter on 01-Jun-2004 11:01:56 (#8487)
Either NePlusUltra Master Course or SmartCards, available here -
http://www.extremebj.com/extreme/store/commerce.cgi?product=software
older versions of CVBJ
Posted by creatureman on 01-Jun-2004 21:02:10 (#8502)
This is abit off topic but yes CVBJ is the best for this I was also wondering if any of you guys know where i could download a older demo version of CVBJ
CVBJ does that, too
Posted by John on 01-Jun-2004 17:53:53 (#8497)
I believe I know what you are talking about. Playing bj and the computer keeps the count along with you, right ? CVBJ does that for you, too. It does just about everything. qfit.com
issue with practice software
Posted by Royam on 05-Jun-2004 11:12:15 (#8582)
I was wondering if any of you could help me with Axo Blackjack. It's in fact a cheaper version of CVBJ that was mentioned in this thread.
I used it to practice what I've just learnt in basic strategy (multiple deck - Las Vegas - no doubling allowed after splitting - no surrender) and found 2 combinations that are different from the table I learnt:
- hard 11 against A: Axo says to DD while my book says to H,
- 22 against 3: Axo says to split while my book says to H.
I was wondering if I did not set up the drill correctly to correspond my table or if there are differenct doctrines?
Any help would be appreciated,
Royam
Problems with CVBJ
Posted by Royam on 06-Jun-2004 13:01:37 (#8591)
Probably going to ask something stupid again (I'm getting used to the fact that I usually find answers to my own posts before the appear after moderation.. oh, well...).
Anyway, I've been thinking this over for the past 24 hours, so here's my question: how do I train counting?
I have found the CVBJ flipcards drills very useful to train basic strategy, but I can't figure out how to train card-counting:
- when I use the counting drills, well... they don't seem to work (the count is always 0),
- when I play a normal game, the discard stats always display a 0 count.
So I figured out I would just count for myself and check regularly the discard stats, compare how many low and how many T were played, to see if my count is correct. BUT the discard stats seem wrong (I've double-checked it several times; e.g. after playing a few hands were no 5 and only 3 T were played, the stats say one 5 and 4 T were played. I thought it might be due to the first card that is discarded before dealing the first hand, but such types of errors keep occuring during the entire game).
To make it short, either I don't understand how it works, or I can't rely on CVBJ to train count. Or maybe it's just because I'm still using the demo version and the count has been disabled?
Any idea on what I do wrong? any other good software to recommend?
Royam
BJ Program
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 02-Jun-2004 09:09:12 (#8514)
I use sage Balckjack on my laptop when I'm on the train going to work. I paid $35 for it, and like it alot. You can change conditions, players, shuffle, count method, decks, speed etc. I usually change the 3rd base setting to display the count instead of his bank roll. I put my thumb over it, and spot check it every so often to check my acuracy. I also have a seat just using BS to see how a non-counter might do in the same session.
http://www.s-a-g-e.com/store.html
Green Action !
Posted by John on 01-Jun-2004 03:18:51 (#8475)
Anyone ever had this called out? I had it called out on my last trip. I couldn't believe it. It was a 50 dollar bet.
YA!!!
Posted by suicyco maniac on 01-Jun-2004 04:01:48 (#8476)
Usually when I drop down to green from black...however I have also had a dealer call out checks play over 4 red chips when I started off betting one... SM
Checks Played
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Jun-2004 06:54:26 (#8478)
is about it here when betting $100. I guess some small stakes BJ pits have a tighter hold on "big action" ;>
Green Action !
Posted by deZerTomB on 01-Jun-2004 09:31:03 (#8482)
yep!!!
Buy in at a $10 min table and dealer's looks surprised when you ask for some green with red, then calls checks play on green chips, but nothing when $40 in red out there. weird. tempted to stack up $100 in red to see if dealer calls that. hehe.
Silver action!
Posted by Sonny on 01-Jun-2004 12:18:41 (#8493)
I get this all the time. At the sawdust joints where I play "green action" is the equivalent of calling out "checks play." If you bet $25 in red they call checks, if you bet $25 in green they call green action. This will change from casino to casino, but the ones I've played in are usually pretty consistent.
Don't worry about calls like this to the pit. The dealers are required to do it whenever a certain betting level has been reached or exceeded. Usually the pit will just waive it off. Still, try to be aware of when the dealers make the calls and how the pit reacts to each one. They probably won't waive off your third "checks play" call.
If a certain dealer keeps calling on me, I will sometimes call it out with them just to annoy them. I will yell in my loudest, drunkest voice right along with them. Some dealers will burst into laughter. I actually had one dealer who let me announce ALL of the calls for her. Whenever I put out my max bet I would yell "checks! I got checks over here! Get your checks here!" The pit would look at me and laugh it off without even looking at the felt. Before long I was calling out "red action!" and "silver action!" One time I called out "purple action...ha ha, made you look!" I got away with MURDER that day! Just be VERY CAREFUL not no be overly obnoxious. An angry dealer or annoyed floorman can mean instant death.
-Sonny-
bet spreads in 6dk game
Posted by ed_vantage on 01-Jun-2004 09:43:53 (#8483)
Using green chips, what kind of bet spread can be gotten down without to much heat. Keep in mind I do intend to use betting and playing cover to throw the critters off. Ian Andersen says that he can get 1-18 down (1-2X9). Is this realistic?
ed
6D green spread...
Posted by zengrifter on 01-Jun-2004 10:57:53 (#8486)
... is easily 1-2x12u (1-24). If you are NOT wonging in at +counts, then wong out at TC-1or-2. If you do wong in at +count, 1-2x4u (1-8) is more than sufficient. I recommend you use a combination of both tacticts. zg
6D spread
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Jun-2004 13:35:00 (#8494)
I use a 1:2X6 on a $25 game and a 1:2X10 on a $10 game when I can find one. Never gotten any heat on account of it and there is one store where they know for a fact I'm a counter but they tolerate this kind of action. In shoe it can take a long time to get a good count, but that can also work to your advantage because it takes proportionally long to evaluate your play.
I've gotten away with
Posted by John on 01-Jun-2004 17:59:02 (#8498)
1-30 spread on double deck and 1-60 spread on 6 deck. Do what you think you can. I don't use any camoflage right now because I think you might as well not play at all if you are going to just hand over the money to the casino. If you play like a counter 99 % of the time then make one dumb move, I think the casino is going to think, "oh he made a dumb move but he's still a counter.". I don't waste time with it. Where I concentrate my time is getting in there, making the cash as quick as possible, and getting the hell out of there. That's me, though. That's my advice.
Cover & camo
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Jun-2004 20:31:03 (#8501)
I don't know, I still lay a lot of cover even at my level. Mostly 9/6 VP, which with the comps is still a positive EV game. One of these days when the roulette wheels are down to $5 I'm going to spend an hour or so playing a progression on the outside. See I have a very limited number of places I can play, so wearing out my welcome even in one is disasterous to my long-term career as a counter.
Depends on the place
Posted by ZOD on 01-Jun-2004 18:54:11 (#8499)
Depends on the place. My weakest spread is 1-12 on 6D and I've occassionally gotten glances for that. On the other hand, one casino that I frequent regularly tolerates 1-2X20. With a spread like that, even crummy games start scoring a lot better.
Best,
ZOD
Also
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 02-Jun-2004 07:52:58 (#8511)
depends on your bankroll. Your spread should also represent the edge x BR x 1 for full kelly, edge x BR x 1/2 for half kelly, etc, which effects your RoR. Same with tracking A's or 7's: edge x accuarcy x BR x 1/2 for half kelly, but normally this is a static bet. It can also varry if your accuracy level fluctuates with different shuffles, etc, but with the edge you have this may not make a diff for you.
tangent, I know
my bankroll
Posted by ed_vantage on 02-Jun-2004 08:52:44 (#8512)
I haven't started out yet but when I do I intend on a bankroll of 200 max bets (which for me is going to be around $200). I figure this will be enough.
ed
yeah, more than enough
Posted by John on 02-Jun-2004 14:59:43 (#8524)
40,000 dollars (200 x 200) will be more than enough. My bankroll is 25,000 and I spread 25 - 300.
Counting Questions - key count, etc - with KO
Posted by Boarding on 01-Jun-2004 19:45:20 (#8500)
Team,
So, a few questions if you don't mind.
First, I don't like the positive numbers, so I have been adjusting the initial running count of the KO method at zero, and therefore my pivot count becomes 24, and my key count becomes 25 (I think).
First - is that correct.
Second, as I have read more, it appears that there are other plays that focus on this +4 use of pivot count.
Should I just use that count and learn to deal with the neg's now to enable better play down the road?
Finally, I'm probably going to be killed but went with the Qfit sofware - seems great.
Thanks
Boarding
**responses
Posted by zengrifter on 02-Jun-2004 11:27:59 (#8519)
**my responses are embedded -
First, I don't like the positive numbers, so I have been adjusting the initial running count of the KO method at zero, and therefore my pivot count becomes 24, and my key count becomes 25 (I think).
**your IRC and KC would still be different for 1D and 2D.
Second, as I have read more, it appears that there are other plays that focus on this +4 use of pivot count.
**for a more complete matrix of 30+ BS departures see 'GriftKO'
Should I just use that count and learn to deal with the neg's now to enable better play down the road?
**YES!
Finally, I'm probably going to be killed but went with the Qfit sofware - seems great.
**I specifically didn't recommend qFit, but now that you got it, STICK TO THE DRILLS AND NOT THE BJ-PLAY FUNCTIONS - THE DRILLS ARE WHERE ITS AT!!! zg
Re Counting Questions with KO
Posted by CanKen on 06-Jun-2004 20:54:55 (#8612)
Boarding:
I've studied and used KO for several years with some success, so I'll post my answers to your questions.
First, I'll assume that you meant you don't like counting negatives, (you said positives), and that you play 6-deck shoes. In my opinion, using an Initial Running Count(IRC) =0 helps a lot and causes no problem. Maybe even better, using IRC = 10 would just about eliminate negatives altogether.
As I understand it, the KO authors use different, negative IRC's for different numbers of decks so that the Pivot Point(PP) is always at +4. If you tend to switch among games with different numbers of decks, this makes learning strategy variations easier since nearly all the important ones occur at, or close to, the PP. If you mostly play the same number of decks, this doesn't matter; use whatever IRC you like.
However, the Key Count(KC), where you first increase your bet, and the PP, where you usually hit your max bet, both change with the number of decks and your choice of IRC.
For six decks, the KC is always IRC+16, and the PP is always IRC+24.
So for IRC = 0, KC = 16, and PP = 24. (For eight decks and IRC = 0, KC = 22, PP = 32.)
CVBJ from QFIT is worth the money. I agree with zg about the drills. I do the flash-card strategy index drills and the full table counting drills almost daily. But I still think playing BJ with the game simulator is good practice. It's very realistic, and if you set the speed parameters at the limit of your ability, you can get a lot of valuable, (and cheap), experience.
Good luck, CK
Sunday's gloom & doom in Reno
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 01-Jun-2004 21:37:59 (#8503)
Dumped 140 units in 6 hrs. at four casinos. My new wife watched some of the time in dismay and shock . She would mostly just shake her head at me. Sometimes during a break, she would whisper in my ear; "Why is it that whenever you bet large, the dealer gets 20 or BJ?" I said; "Because that's just the way it goes sometimes." She says; "But it's almost every time!" She even asked me if I was possibly doing every thing backwards, that I should bet big when the small cards are coming so there would be much less chance of the D getting such perfect cards. I even had dealers feeling sorry for me. Two of them noticed that whenever I bet large, they would just clean me out with a 20 or BJ. Once when I bet max the D said; "I guess that big bet means I'm going to get a BJ". Sure enough, it happens. I had to walk off realizing the lady probably labeled me as a counter with "rotten luck". At least I won some sympathy from the pit.
It's amazing how a run of negative variance can sometimes be so relentless and ruthless in front of the new wife, especially when betting large during positive EV situations. It would be easily tolerable if it didn't affect the wife so much. I can't seem to find a way to play without her seeing the negative stuff.
I know this kind of stuff has happened to most you. I'm just a little tired I guess. I think I'll take a break for a while. I will always believe in it though, but sometimes the coin just lands the wrong way too much for too long.
Bad luck
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Jun-2004 21:50:26 (#8504)
I hear you man, I'm the king of bad luck. Amazing how the dealer can always pull a 21 out of his ass when he needs one. It's supposed to happen 1 out of 13 times when the dealer draws. In a pig's ass, it seems, sometimes. I just went through a streak just like that.
Listen, this kind of thing is understood only by counters and not for the wife's eyes. Look how many experienced gamblers don't even understand the mathematics of counting, you can't expect the uninitiated to understand at all. When I bring my SR it's always because there's a concert she wants to see and she doesn't see any of the gory details of blackjack, not for more than 10 minutes anyway. As long as you are not doing any financial hurting as a couple she will probably not get too upset, but in general, there is a reason why the overwhelming majority of counters are men. If I were you I wouldn't let her watch unless you know you are going to win- translation- don't let her watch!
Painful questions...
Posted by All-time high on 02-Jun-2004 00:55:38 (#8508)
To the unknowledgeable, I just say "look at my past records", assuming you graph results, or "How big is your sample size?", when they ask silly questions based on watching a few hours play.
New wife? Congratulations, you work fast
Posted by LVBear584 on 02-Jun-2004 01:43:29 (#8509)
From "new lady" to "new wife" in less than four months. Wow!
Best of luck to both of you.
sorry man
Posted by John on 02-Jun-2004 02:47:14 (#8510)
sorry about that, man. I can't say that I have ever had a day that bad. My worst day was a 96 unit loss. I haven't been doing it as long as you, though. I find that when I go with my family, I am distracted and don't do well. For this reason, I only play bj when I go by myself.
Sympathy
Posted by revereman on 02-Jun-2004 09:02:22 (#8513)
If you want sympathy, this is the place to come as most veteran APs have had similiar experiences. I've had the same thoughts as your wife (congrats) that maybe this whole counting thing is ass backwards. I'll win 15 minumum bets in a row because the count is negative but then get killed when the count goes way positive. Our small advantage is in the long run but sometimes the long run can seem light years away. Writing from experience, I can tell you to be very careful in dealing with the wife. This could be a very sensitive issue. Of course, every woman is different and you know yours better than any of us (well, except for the few of us here she's been seeing on the side), but if you lose, let's say $2000, she probably doesn't see that as a streak of bad luck, she sees it as a lost vacation, jewelry, whatever. My wife was/is great about my gambling because she has seen over the years that I win. My gambling losses have never affected my home financial condition and you really need to make sure that happens in your household too. Don't ever forget the first fact of married life: what's hers is hers and what's yours is hers. My wife doesn't like to see $100 and over bets, so she pretty much doesn't watch me play anymore. I give her a few hundred dollars to play video poker and three card poker and make sure I am available for meals. You're not a lone wolf anymore, and your marriage is more important than blackjack (at least, hopefully it is).
Good luck in BJ and in your marriage.
Glad to see I'm not the only one.
Posted by Witling on 02-Jun-2004 13:14:19 (#8520)
I'm not even a counter but I am an "above average" BJ player (according to the quiz).
This past weekend in Biloxi I was up and/or holding my own when I hit a shoe that ripped me a new one. My 2 unit bets were winners but my 4 units with a double down would get nailed. Of course the wife, when not wasting my money on slots, would be there to see the carnage.
Hang in there
Posted by ZOD on 02-Jun-2004 20:11:15 (#8526)
Hang in there. My wife doesn't much care for gambling and NEVER, EVER accompanies me on blackjack trips...until last August. I dropped a little over 200 units in 3 days and she was there to witness every freakin' hand of the gory madness.
Did she chastise me for losing that 70" HDTV? Did she lament that now we couldn't afford our planned trip to Hawaii? Did she rage that I could have bought her the emeralds she covets with the money I lost? No, no and no. She just reminded me that all I lost were plastic chips.
My wife understands. Yours will too, eventually. The math works and variance happens and hopefully we will play again tomorrow with the blessings of our significant other. So hang in there. Maybe you can impress her next time.
Best,
ZOD
I Fell Your Pain Man
Posted by SammyBoy on 03-Jun-2004 10:18:25 (#8539)
I had a 150 unit loss on a trip about a month ago (15 hours of play). It's amazing the thoughts that go through your head while you're getting pounded. I've run alot of sims, and by doing so I am able to see and understand that these losing streaks will happen. You just have to play through them without altering your play because it will eventually turn around. You're playing a winning game, just keep chugging along. As far as the wife goes, the worst thing you can do is show emotion after/during a losing streak. In order for her to believe that you will win in the long run she has to see that you believe it. Sometimes these losing streaks can really mess with your mind. I never let my wife know when I'm upset about a loss. I always tell her that it is part of the game and that I will eventually get it back and more. Even though I'm really pissed on the inside. I would have to say that the weakest part of my game is the emotional part of it. When I fell myself getting angry I must quit. I usually get a bite to eat or take a walk.
Better now
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 04-Jun-2004 08:31:32 (#8564)
Time and my BJ friends here somehow seem to heal the mind. Thanks all. I'm not dead yet. Such as my Governor would say; "I'LL BE BAUK"
Sleeping schedules
Posted by Sonny on 02-Jun-2004 11:22:20 (#8518)
The Mayor's new Podium for this month brought up a question I have for all of you: What are your sleeping scedules?
Do you take several short naps during the day or do you sleep all at once? Do you sleep in the afternoon when the weather is too hot or do you sleep in the evening when the casinos are packed with ploppies? How many hours do you get each day?
I am curious how other players are sceduling their playing time during trips.
-Sonny-
Sleeping schedules
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Jun-2004 13:23:25 (#8521)
Well I've got a trip coming up this weekend. I'll have 48 hours in the venue, and I intend to spend a mimimum of 24 of them at the table. The other 24 will be for: sleeping, taking a shower, eating, going the terlit, travel between casinos (will be significant) and any miscellaneous extracurricular activity I encounter.
I consider it a bad idea to play without sleep because you make mistakes, and the problem with those kinds of mistakes is that you will never know. An analytical instrument cannot analyze itself. So anyone who has played too tired and still won probably just got lucky. But how tired is "too tired" is an individual thing. The other thing about being tired is that it hurts your ability to deal with unexpected situations more than the expected. Sure, you can be too tired and maybe you can still count, but how will you deal with an attempted backrooming, a thief or con artist on your case, or any of the many other unexpected situations that one encounters in a casino? Get your sleep.
how long to play
Posted by ladykiller on 02-Jun-2004 13:45:34 (#8522)
When I go to LV, I usually stay for 3 days, get there in late afternoon, early evening on Friday, and leave Sunday afternoon. I like to get in as much table time as possible. So I'll play that first night till 4 or 5 am. The next day I'll get up around 1 and eat, then do it all over again till 3 am or so. It usually depends on how I'm doing. If I'm down a lot, there's no sleeping. Last trip, I was down 180 units after 2 nights(very bad run). So the next day I played for like 14 hours and wound up leaving only down 2.5 units. When it's at peak hours, I find it better to back count. On the down time, when the PC's have a much better idea of what's going on, I'll sit down. But you really need to know yourself and see how long you can go without making errors. ie: when you're a little drunk or really tired, have someone test you. I've done this, it really helps.
Sleep Schedules
Posted by Gordon Gekko on 25-Jun-2004 21:52:38 (#8994)
I try to get a full 5-7 hrs sleep, followed by a 45 min run. It clears the mind and provides tons of energy. A massage once or twice a week doesnt hurt either (GN spa is my favorate). If you absolutley have to go on limited sleep, meditate for 10 min or so to relax followed by a 1.5 hr nap. A full sleep cycle is 1.5 hrs. You will awake alert and refreshed.
A quality Mau Huang suppliment is also a good idea. Email me if you need a good source. Im sure Zengrifter could provide you with a source too, eh zg? ;)
gg
Survey Question for everyone
Posted by ladykiller on 02-Jun-2004 13:57:42 (#8523)
I would really like to know what the average age is for everyone that counts here. I'm guessing it's around 30-45 or something like that. I would also like to know what most people's backgrounds are- mathematics, or engineering majors? any BA majors? I'd really like to see a poll taken on this.
27, Mechanical Engineer *NM*
Posted by shaggy18vw on 02-Jun-2004 21:42:06 (#8527)
39, physics *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Jun-2004 21:53:26 (#8529)
We had this one
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Jun-2004 22:58:44 (#8531)
A few months back we had a demographics survey on the monthly poll -- you missed it ... catch it next time around.
If you use the search feature, I think Revereman did a summary of it on this page.
--Mayor
36 MIS *NM*
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 03-Jun-2004 10:11:36 (#8538)
Stop posting personal information about yourselves, please.
Posted by toddler on 03-Jun-2004 15:19:19 (#8548)
This is exactly the king of information that surveillance wants (and that Cellini warned us all about!).
All the casinos already know I'm a love machine! *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 03-Jun-2004 17:08:09 (#8556)
=) *NM*
Posted by toddler on 04-Jun-2004 08:08:16 (#8563)
98yrs MBA RCMP PEng & School of Hard Knocks *NM*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 07-Jun-2004 19:07:19 (#8630)
Pharmacist, 45 *NM*
Posted by MrPill on 03-Jun-2004 13:29:36 (#8545)
26, Love Machine *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 03-Jun-2004 13:56:44 (#8546)
21.... lingere model *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 04-Jun-2004 18:35:41 (#8575)
Over 21 (way over) -- large, slow moving animal *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 04-Jun-2004 19:14:59 (#8577)
Newbie (but basic) question
Posted by Royam on 02-Jun-2004 20:08:44 (#8525)
Hi all,
As a quick disclaimer, I'm totally new here and to BJ more generally. I might ask shocking questions and will certainly ask stupid ones. I apologize for this.
I've just read "Bringing down the house", by Ben Mezrich, and found it very interesting (not only the entertaining story, but also the techniques behind it).
After reading this book, I can't help asking myself the following questions, but of course I lack the knowledge/experience to answer them, so I'm posting on this board:
- If you play BJ and lose, why should you play? (I personally don't find it fun to lose money)
- If, on the other hand, you master the techniques I've just discovered (basic strategic, card counting, shuffle tracking, and probably many others), you CAN win. But then, you get barred/back-roomed/ass-kicked...
If I see it right, it's a lose-lose situation... I'd like to hear I'm wrong.
nostra
my response
Posted by John on 03-Jun-2004 02:46:54 (#8534)
I like knowing my advantage/disadvantage. I tried poker, and I had no idea if I was playing an advantage game or not. The bj game is always relatively the same.
There are 2000+ casinos in the USA. If I get barred in most of the casinos around here, I'll just move. I don't have any kids or wife so its no problem for me.
It's fun. I can work when I want. No one is telling me what to do (I don't take orders well). Every trip is like a vacation. I'm always on vacation. Now for me, I have the support of my family which makes it easier.
McDonald's pays $7/hr. I used to work for them, actually. I mopped a lot of floors and made a crappy wage. I worked with people I hated. In blackjack, if I don't like the people at the table, I go somewhere else. I have always been a bit of an outcast. Hell, I got my degree in my mathematics but what have I done with it. There are personal reasons for my decision that I won't reveal on this board.
Do you think Phil Hellmuth and Howard Lederer(poker player) like their job? You bet. It's similar but for a bj player we have many more obstacles, in my opinion.
I think a bj player can make more money than a professional poker player, unless you are one of the bests. We are constantly putting money in the circle whereas poker games are generally slower.
BJ vs. poker
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-Jun-2004 06:28:54 (#8536)
It's true and the rake is huge in a low stakes game. Very hard to make money when they are raking 2% of the pot, reminds me of 6:5 BJ. And as the stakes go up the level of experience of the other players does too. Poker is not an advantage game, in my opinion.
Poker is a Wonderful Advantage Game.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 03-Jun-2004 09:30:41 (#8537)
This is the GOLDEN AGE OF POKER.
There are more fish at the table then there has ever been before.
I have put BJ on hold for the time being and spend several hours every day playing poker on-line.
I am getting several hundred per month from the sites in bonus money alone.
I then turn around and double this bonus weekly playing.
I figure once the craze dies and the last fish swims away, the dealers will still be hitting 16 and standing on soft 17 (or hitting it, I can beat that game too).
www.partypoker.com 25% bonus for new account sign-up.
www.pacificpoker.com $25 for $50 deposit on new account.
(these two sites have the most suckers per table in the known civilized world)
Thank you John
Posted by Royam on 03-Jun-2004 12:39:48 (#8542)
Thank you for your answer, John.
Don't get me wrong, it seems great to be able to make a living of having a well trained mind and playing it smart.
Again, I know very little about BJ. I just read this book "Bringing down the house". I found this MIT team impressive, both for the individual qualities of its members and the clever job sharing (spotters calling big players when tables were hot). Then I was a little upset to see that, because the big players won, they got investigated about and all the members of the team ended up being listed by the security agency working for the casinos as counters. As a result, they got barred from many Vegas casinos. Some members of the team were also back-roomed in a more or less unpleasant manner. They moved to other parts of the country, and they kept being spotted and barred very quickly. When trying abroad, one guy even got beaten up pretty badly. Then came the IRS investigations, the breaking in into their apartments to recover the BJ gains and that type of intimidation.
I got the impression that, either you a play "normally" and the casinos f... you because you lose your money, or you play it smart and win and the casinos still f... you, because they do what it takes to scare you off (kind of a looser-looser situation, no?). Maybe I got a wrong image because I naively thought the book depicted what happens in the real world...
Royam
Three types of BJ players:
Posted by Sonny on 03-Jun-2004 11:02:28 (#8540)
The BAD PLAYERS (losing players) get free drinks and comps while playing. The casinos WANT them to return, so they keep the players happy.
The GOOD PLAYERS (card counters, shuffle trackers, etc.) will win money but will be asked to leave by the casino.
The GREAT PLAYERS will win money and still be welcome to return to a casino anytime. A great player may never be seen by the casino, or they will appear to be a losing player to the casino. Either way they will be able to continue winning money as long as they want.
Another important point to mention is that if a player is backed-off (asked not to play BJ anymore) that doesn't mean he has to stop playing. There are plenty of other casinos, and even other shifts at the same casino, that he can play. Even if he gets kicked out of a particular casino forever he still has plenty of options.
Andy Bloch from the MIT team said that he has been arrested (yes, by the police!) three times and he still doesn't have a problem playing. So a good player can still play despite occasional back-offs, and a GREAT player can ALWAYS play.
-Sonny-
Thank you Sonny
Posted by Royam on 03-Jun-2004 12:56:58 (#8543)
Thank you for your answer, Sonny.
As for your distinction between bad, good and great players, I would like to ask you the following. Still referring to "Breaking down the house", the MIT team seemed to have members that were both good players and good actors. Then the organization seemed pretty good too, with some players spotting hot tables and others playing big on the spotted tables, so as not to raise suspicion by having a single player count AND begin playing big when the table got hot.
Nonetheless, all the members of the team ended up being on the black list of counters and barred from more and more casinos, not to speak of other less pleasant adventures (don't want to repeat too much from my answer to John). The impression I got was that, when you're making money, you get spotted and barred.
So how would you say you can move from the "good" to the "great" category of players? Is it just that you are more careful when playing in team? Maybe the relationships between the team members should have remained purely professional (never meet unless in secret places to discuss strategy; for instance, never eat or even have a drink together in casinos, etc.)? Or are you just playing solo? Or are you acting more to conceal your gaming talent? Or are you moving more often from casino to casino? But then, if you move too often, it also reduces the money you can make per time unit...
To tell you the truth, this book gave me both enough interest in BJ so that I research a bit about basic strategy, card counting, etc.. and the paranoia (didn't even dare to post under my real... pseudo! Lol... thought that the guys from Griffin would be checking such boards!). Btw, how do you guys remain anonymous? Just not raising attention at all, or concealing your identity using fake ID, etc.?
Final question: where would you start learning basic strategy and the like (because now I'm lost when I read about "6D, DOA, DAS, S17" (no idea what DOA and DAS mean).
Royam
Team methods
Posted by Sonny on 05-Jun-2004 02:26:17 (#8580)
> Still referring to "Breaking down the house", the MIT team seemed to have
> members that were both good players and good actors.
I have not read the book, but from the interviews and footage of them playing in the documentary "The Hot Shoe" it seemed like the acting was pretty poor. I do not want to comment on the entire MIT team, but the small amount of playing that I saw from those three players looked pretty poor. I'm not surprised that they were barred.
> Then the organization seemed pretty good too, with some players spotting hot
> tables and others playing big on the spotted tables, so as not to raise
> suspicion by having a single player count AND begin playing big when the
> table got hot.
This type of team play has been going on for DECADES! Ken Uston published at least four books describing this method in detail back in the 70's. The casinos are well aware of this method. This method of team play is, as Tommy Highland said, "a bit obsolete" these days. Also, unless your BP is placing HUGE bets, you are better off using different methods team play. The old BP method is overused and often under-performing.
> So how would you say you can move from the "good" to the "great" category of
> players? Is it just that you are more careful when playing in team?
Yes.
> Maybe the relationships between the team members should have remained purely
> professional (never meet unless in secret places to discuss strategy; for
> instance, never eat or even have a drink together in casinos, etc.)?
Yes.
> Or are you just playing solo?
Probably, yes.
> Or are you acting more to conceal your gaming talent?
Yes.
> Or are you moving more often from casino to casino?
Yes. As you can see, there are MANY ways to improve the techniques that the MIT team used. Again, I don't want to belittle the entire MIT team - only the few players that I saw.
> But then, if you move too often, it also reduces the money you can make per
> time unit...
This is not completely true. If you only play for 1 hour in each casino you will be spending more time traveling and less time playing, but if you play for 2 hours you may get kicked out. You will make MUCH more money by playing 1 hour every week than only 2 hours in your life. As I said before, the GREAT players will be able to win the money and still be welcome to come back the next day.
> ...and the paranoia (didn't even dare to post under my real... pseudo! Lol...
> thought that the guys from Griffin would be checking such boards!).
Well, the Griffin folks may not be lurking here but the casino employees often do. If they can somehow link your posts to athe person who plays in their casino they will take action. I'm sure that the parinoia among counters is overblown, but in this businiess it PAYS to be safe and not sorry.
> Btw, how do you guys remain anonymous? Just not raising attention at all, or
> concealing your identity using fake ID, etc.?
Both, actually. There is a good thread about using fake IDs below somewhere. If you play for big money, there is no way that you will not be seen. You either have to play small enought to fly under the radar (the radar is at different levels at each casino) or have an alias ready for when you get spotted.
> Final question: where would you start learning basic strategy and the like
> (because now I'm lost when I read about "6D, DOA, DAS, S17" (no idea what DOA
> and DAS mean).
Here's a quick rundown:
H17 = Hit soft 17 (dealer must hit a soft 17)
S17 = Stand on any 17 (dealer must stand)
DOA = Double On Any first two cards
D10 = Double on 10 or 11 only
DAS = Double After Splitting is allowed
RSA = Re-Splitting Aces is allowed
ESR = Early Surrender
LSR = Late Surrender
Check out the "Blackjack Links" section of this website for more info on basic strategy. And don't forget to post here with any more questions!
-Sonny-
Thank you Sonny
Posted by Royam on 05-Jun-2004 09:35:59 (#8581)
Thank you for your answer Sonny, many good tips in there.
I bought a book yesterday night. As I could not find any of the books in The Mayor's reading list, I bought a beginners' book that explains basic strategy and card-counting.
I have read the first half and basic strategy seems pretty straightforward. I will read the rest about card-counting tonight, but there is already one thing I would like to ask.
The basic strategy tables are based on probabilities, right? If it is so, and given the fact that the players also card-count, how is it that the count is not taken into consideration to adjust the tables? I mean, if the count is high, the odds are high that the player/dealer get a 10 and this should change the tables, no?
Royam
what book???
Posted by suicyco maniac on 06-Jun-2004 02:53:00 (#8586)
If Eliot doesn't recomend your book it might be because it is full of voodoo... Jerry Pattersons Target comes to mind. SM
Winning Blackjack for the serious player
Posted by Royam on 06-Jun-2004 09:12:08 (#8587)
By Edwin Silberstang: covers basic strategy, simple principles of card-counting, but also basic blackjack, the dealer, the casino, how to manage them, tipping, etc.
A little bit limited (I already have questions I cannot find answers to in this book), but very clear and entertaining. Most importantly, it covers all the basics I knew nothing about. Now I'm reading Professional Blackjack, by Stanford Wong, and can understand it (so far ;)). I guess I would've been lost without the first introductory book. Hope it wasn't full of ... voodoo though ;)
Royam
Basic Strategy deviations
Posted by Sonny on 06-Jun-2004 15:55:59 (#8602)
> The basic strategy tables are based on probabilities, right? If it is so, and
> given the fact that the players also card-count, how is it that the count is
> not taken into consideration to adjust the tables? I mean, if the count is
> high, the odds are high that the player/dealer get a 10 and this should
> change the tables, no?
You are exactly right. That is where the basic strategy deviation come into play (some people call them Indeces or Martix plays). Every card counting system comes with a list of these plays. They will tell you at what true count to deviate from what Basic Strategy tells you do do. Here are a few examples from the system I use (Hi-Opt II):
+4 or above - Take insurarce
+1 or above - Stand on 16 vs 10
-1 or below - Hit on 12 vs 4
+2 or above - Double on 9 vs 2
+7 or above - Double on 9 vs 7
-4 or above - Double on 9 vs 4
-5 or below - Hit 12 vs 6
The most important of these plays will be the "Illustrious 18" from Don Schlesinger. They are listed on this website for several systems in the "System Indeces" section.
Keep in mind that these are advances plays. You should not worry about them (except insurance, which is a HUGE help) until you have your counting and basic strategy down cold.
-Sonny-
What counting system should I use?
Posted by Royam on 06-Jun-2004 16:38:58 (#8605)
Ok, thanks for this information, Sonny.
I also found such variations in "winning blackjack for serious player" (my beginner's book) but found them unsatisfying as they were covering very few combinations.
Now, I'm reading "Professional Blackjack" (my advanced book) and this book is very complete, listing all variations from -10 to + 10. It feels "safer" to know exactly how to adjust each move.
I hear about different counting systems and don't know which one to pick. My beginner's book had one with 3 to 6 as + 1, T/J/Q/K as - 1 (others neutral), as counted separately: the author says it helps a lot in certain circumstances to know how many as are left. And my advanced book has one that seems simpler: 2-6 as + 1, T/J/Q/K/As as - 1 (others neutral).
I must admit that now I have some trouble keeping track of the count, the as, convert to the true count, and keep playing quickly without mistakes (and still, I don't use variations yet, I just use the count to adjust my bet).
So before spending too much time working on it, I'd like you guys to advise me on which counting system to use. I am in no hurry, I'll practise as long as it takes to be ready before stepping in a casino.
Royam
Andy Bloch ? Is he also a poker player?
Posted by John on 03-Jun-2004 15:24:17 (#8549)
Isn't there an Andy Bloch that makes it to the final table sometimes on those World Poker Tour shows? Is that the same guy? I believe that Andy Bloch on the World Poker Tour is a software developer.
I believe I'm a good bj player but not a great one. Not sure I'll ever be a great one because everytime I try the ol' palm the black chip routine, 2 out of 3 times the dealer at the end of my run says, "I'd like the black chips you got in your pocket, too" and I think "shoot!".
I need to read a lot more books on poker to give that game all I have. I'm giving bj all I have, now and it feels good even when I lose, sometimes. What value do some of you guys, particularly Abraham, on those books written by Howard Lederer and Phil Hellmuth ? I believe both of them have websites and are selling their secrets (supposedly) to the masses in their new books.
Books
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 03-Jun-2004 16:01:06 (#8551)
Howard Lederer: Not a lot of substance and way overpriced (if you are going the video tape route).
Phil Hellmuth: pure crap. I wish that every one I play against would read this book.
Good Starting Books: "Winning Low Limit Hold Em" by Lee Jones. "Winning Internet Texas Hold Em" by Mathew Hilger. Lou Krieger has two good beginner books called something like "Beginner's Texas Hold Em Poker". "Killer Poker" and "Killer Poker Online" by John Vorhaus.
Start playing low limit on-line. ABC basic strategy poker can win there at the soft tables and bad players. Learn as you win. Then you can slowly move up in limits as you gain skills.
Then you can add the more advanced concepts in books like "Hold'em Poker For Advanced Players" by Sklansky and Malmuth.
The nice thing about the bad players at low limit on-line is it doesn't really cost a whole lot of money to learn how to play (lessons can get expensive if you are playing $5/$10 live instead of .5/$1.00 online).
It is almost like if someone where trying to learn how to count and had a very low limit blackjack game with such good rules there was positive off-the-top expectation to learn on. Such is the online scene. Basic strategy "ABC POKER" will win you a little (plus the sites give you bonuses), as your skills increase you win more and can advance to more difficult games.
The problem with online poker
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-Jun-2004 16:07:08 (#8553)
... is that you never know if you are playing against 6 people or against 1 guy with 6 computers. And you will never know, and the host site has no reason to care. An opportunity to make money = cheats will be present. So hell will freeze over before I play more than dollar stakes in online poker.
The Sky Is Falling
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 03-Jun-2004 16:18:39 (#8554)
If you ever play online at .5/$1 or $1/$2 limits, and see the plays and "strategy" that takes place, then I say "AMEN" to those computer program players. Hope they clone a million of them and they are present at every table!
As you know, the casino instructs their dealers to use secret shuffles that result in you losing more than you should if you follow basic strategy. You shouldn't be playing live BJ either.
Seriously, the sites do have a vested interest against computer programs being used to play. They need to protect the "fairness" of the games or people won't play and they are out of business. The major sites have already implimented software to detect computer play (and the poker computer programs aren't really that great right now anyways!). Cheaters will have their funds seized and so they risk losing all their money. The sites really don't have to pay any one, again, reputation of fairness is what they depend on.
It is far more likely you will run into two players colluding with each other. And when betting patterns, or things look fishy, notify the site about those players. They WILL investigate, and chances are those players will be banned and you won't have to worry about them again.
Didn't say that
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-Jun-2004 18:52:26 (#8558)
I don't have a problem with people using a computer to play against me. What I do have a problem with is one guy with 4 computers and a KVM switch playing 4 hands in an Omaha HL game. Sure, $.50/1 or $1/$2 I will play and have done pretty well myself. I'm into Draw. But for me to match my BJ EV I'd have to be playing much higher stakes than that, and at the $10/20 table not only are there going to be few if any fish, but the cheat can pay for his extra boxes and KVM in one session. And that would make me the fish. The potential profit just doesn't justify the risk.
And I know that the sites do claim that they investigate possible partnerships and frankly I don't believe them. It would be too much work to do that, and unless the cheating is so blatantly obvious that it scares players away, nobody is going to realize it. They'll just think they were outplayed or unlucky when they lose.
Now what would be fun... is to get a bunch of people who know each other together to play a friendly and challenging game and hustle the bonuses. If that's possible- I don't know if there are any bonuses that make up for the rake.
Further Into Fantasy Land
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 04-Jun-2004 10:20:14 (#8565)
Short Answer -- The poker rooms are raking $500,000+ PER DAY!!! If cheating gets out of hand, they can kiss that goodbye. They are going to do their best to keep things honest and keep the half million a day rolling in.
Also, they have to protect themselves. The things to make collusion happen can also make it easy for things like credit card fraud (They lose money!!), chip dumping, money laundering, being a conduit for illegal drug money transactions, etc., etc. and this will kill that $500,000 a day golden goose also. So they are going to protect themselves, and you along with it.
Long Answer -- Okay, now we got one guy playing 4 seats at the same table.
SO the guy needs to contact a couple of ISP's and set up multiple accounts, maybe have one computer going thru dial-up even. (try to set up multiple accounts and sit at the same table, go ahead, try it.) The software doesn't allow multiple seats from the same computer/server/IP ADDRESS at the table, you are going to have to use different internet providers at the very least.
Of course, he needs to have a couple of fictious names and address to set up these accounts, it would be kind of a red flag to have all 4 of these "different" guys playing at the same table, living at the same address and having the same real name.
Now to fund these 4 different accounts, you need to set up 4 phoney bank accounts with the fictious names and addresses (banking information must match playing account information) and get the bank to issue credit cards for the account. Playing for high stakes, you will get a call from the Poker Room to verify your identity, so better have a couple of different people around to answer the phone just in case they realize they keep talking to the same person when they call 4 different people. (Oh, yeah -- you are going to need 4 different phone numbers, I mean, how easy would duplicate numbers be to cross check on a computer database?)
So we will ignore that now the guy has 4 phoney identities, 4 bank accounts with these identities, 4 addresses and phone numbers, etc. and isn't there something more lucrative he could illegally be doing with all that rather than scamming a few thousand off some poker suckers, nevermind, poker is the plan!
So he plops his 4 identities down at the table. Now all he has to do is find suckers who are going to play against these 4 guys. The 4 guys who always play together. The 4 guys who never seem to play by themselves. The 4 guys who, if you see one, you see all four, always at the same table, same time. If one quits, pretty shortly they all quit, and when one shows up, the other three aren't far behind. Never play seperately at other tables. Yeah, those 4 guys. You betcha -- I'm going to hop right in and play them high stakes regularly, yep.
Of course, as soon as someone notices some fishy play -- like one guy betting into the other guy raising and then folding -- and colluding crap like that -- 1 e-mail to the Poker Room, just 1 e-mail -- and unlike a real poker room where the poker room manager might notice that he has seen those guys play together sometime in the past maybe -- No, they got a history of every hand that every guy has ever played. And they can pour over that hand history, not think they remember something similar last Tuesday, but actually statistically analyse, and see how often one guy raised and folded with nothing since he has played from DAY 1. How many times he has played with Tom, Dick, and Moe -- How often he raised with nothing when the other guy had the nuts and was able to re-raise -- with the advantage of seeing ALL the cards, ALL the times, no matter when any of the players mucked.
At this point, it doesn't matter if it is 1 guy or 4 real guys colluding -- 2 of your 4 guys just had all their funds seized. You lost half your team, hope 1 of those guys wasn't the one that had the major winnings dumped on -- you just lost it. Better get busy setting up some new addresses, phones, bank accounts, etc.
Oh, and if you are playing really really high stakes at one of the majors -- you will get a phone call from the card room manager to check you out -- and you don't need to worry waiting for some one to report collusion -- the games are monitored automatically.
Ever hear of proxy servers? *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jun-2004 14:48:45 (#8621)
What was that whisper?
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 08-Jun-2004 08:17:19 (#8647)
Ever hear of the client software running on your computer?
It sends the complete routing (including thru a proxy server) back to the host.
Some sites won't allow connection thru known anon proxies (I wonder why?). Some innocent people can't get thru from certain ISP routers because of abuses from others using that router in the past.
But forget all that. You think you have solved the duplicate IP address type problem. Now work on the seperate address, phone numbers, bank accounts, and credit cards.
Then you can start trying to get people to play with the same group of players over and over again.
Something REAL to Worry About.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 04-Jun-2004 10:37:37 (#8566)
You cash out at your local casino. Carefully count your big win at the cage, stick it in your pocket and go get something to eat.
On your drive home an hour or two later, about a mile down the road from the casino, you stop at a red light.
A car behind you doesn't seem to be paying attention and manages to lightly tap your back bumper as you are stopped at the light. You carefully look in your rear view mirror at the lone occupant in the car behind you. "What the hell!", you mutter as you get out of your car to check the damage.
Suddenly, about 3 guys emerge from the car that had pulled up previously in the lane beside you. You find yourself staring down the barrel of a gun. "What the hell!" you mutter again, standing in the middle of the street, watching your car, bankroll, and the other two cars roar down the road out of sight.
Some E-Mails from Today.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 03-Jun-2004 16:31:44 (#8555)
E-mail in my box! Gotta love it!
>>>>From play Memorial Day At Pacific Poker $2/$4
"Thank you for updating your bank details. We can now reprocess your returned wire for $301.67. Please allow 4-7 days for the funds to show in your bank account."
>>>>>From play Tuesday/Wednesday Night At Party Poker $1/$2
"Current Status of Request: PENDING APPROVAL
Cash Out Amount : $400.00.
Date/Time Transaction : 02-JUN-2004 20:12:50 EST."
How could I encourage people to use more of these poker-playing computer programs you speak about?
Reminds me when I first started playing blackjack heavily my first year. I don't know how many people told me that those casinos didn't have all those fancy carpets and lights and gave me all those nice comps for nothing. Nobody can beat the casinos at their own game! Of course, family members really didn't know what to say 12 months later when I had booked over 70k profit.
What you are doing wrong.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 03-Jun-2004 16:06:58 (#8552)
You shouldn't palm black chips. You should be palming off a green chip here and there (4 green chips in your pocket that they will never miss = 1 black chip they know you must have somewhere).
Then when you color up your few black chips, you look like a loser as you walk off with 20-30 green chips in your pocket.
No you don't!
Posted by zengrifter on 03-Jun-2004 15:42:20 (#8550)
But then, you get barred/back-roomed/ass-kicked...
------------------------
good books and insight into card counter life
Posted by John on 06-Jun-2004 13:57:05 (#8592)
Just got back today from a recent trip, and I think it was my toughest one to date. I knew it would happen eventually. I set a new personal record for most money lost in a day. I know most of you still have me beat but I lost 2800 in a few hours. I made it all back and then some but it wasn't fun. I think I handled it well. I know I handled it better than some of those ploppies. Have you seen some of those guys? The worst I have seen was from a middle aged woman if you can believe it. She pounded the table so hard I thought she was going to break it in half.
I finished the trip up 68 units.
Man, those phone calls (you know the phones that light up and are loud as hell) have me worried to death these days, especially after that last barring. I'm getting lots of eyeing, too. I'm not staying there too long but still happening. I know that this particular casino doesn't kick out card counters so I'm alright. (I have inside information)
My favorite moment from the trip was doubling an 8 v 4 for a 600 dollar win.
Hey, Abraham, I completely believe you. I am on pace to make almost 100K this year if all goes well. I got family members wanting to invest in me like I'm a thoroughbred or something.
Rayhem, most casinos will figure out that you are a card counter, eventually. You'll find, in my opinion, that if you aren't betting thousands on each hand, that a lot of casinos will tolerate you. I used to be an advocate for playing Mon-Thurs but I'm starting to think that you should play at the busiest times like fri and sat. It gives the casino more to lose if they decide to throw you out. I've been shuffled up on once and banned once and both times were during slow hours.
Abraham, I think you are right about the palming, but I am getting better. This trip, I didn't get caught once. The dealer did a double take on my chip stack but I was tipping him way too well for him to say anything. I am going to keep on tipping because I think I am getting something out of it. I had the dealer cutting off nearly 3/4 deck on a 6 deck game.
forgot the books
Posted by John on 06-Jun-2004 14:05:35 (#8593)
World Greatest Blackjack Book by Lance Humble
This was my first blackjack book, and I think it is a good introduction.
Knock-out Blackjack by Olaf Vancura and Ken Fuchs
This was my 2nd book and good if you don't like converting to true counts
Theory of Blackjack by Peter Griffin
Helps to foster a deeper understanding of the game. Doesn't really help you make more money at the tables but helps you maintain the faith when times get hard.
Blackjack Attack, 3rd edition by Don Schlesinger $40
or
get the 2nd edition of Blackjack Attack for 10 dollars (probably a good buy)
I haven't read Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong so can't speak from opinion but it should be in the list, too. I use his count, though (Hi-Lo).
You need the book
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 06-Jun-2004 14:40:27 (#8595)
"Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong"
If you are getting 5 1/4 decks in a 6 deck shoe, you need this book. It has the complete HiLo indexes in it, which are really helpful when you are deep in a shoe.
And re-read Blackjack Attack, maximize your bankroll for such a good game.
You can bet
Posted by John on 06-Jun-2004 15:00:30 (#8599)
I took some lengthy notes after this experience.......
I almost never write comments down in my journal.
"Bringing Down The House" is a joke.
Posted by Witling on 06-Jun-2004 14:46:52 (#8596)
I've read it. I also read "The Big Player" by Ken Uston back in 1978.
"Bringing Down The House" might have been based on some real circumstances but there are so many inaccuracies that I feel it's more fiction than non-fiction.
For anyone who has every played even semi-serious blackjack or spent anytime in a Las Vegas casino will be constantly calling "bullshit" when reading it.
Basic Strategy is based on millions of computer simulations of what to do based on the rules of the table, what card the dealer has up and what you are holding.
That is not the same as counting. Counting changes everything. You should know Basic Strategy to count but they are two different animals.
As for where to go for information you have almost all you need at your fingertips, that being the internet. I wish I had the internet when I started playing BJ 25 years ago. It would have been a much less expensive lesson.
Get the basics down first. Play as much as you can in a live game. You can play online to practice but DO NOT PLAY ONLINE FOR REAL MONEY. Keep the stakes low until you can add as fast as the dealer and know what to do in every situation (especially double-downs and splitting).
Good Luck.
Clarke Cant, Thomas Jefferson, and while you`re all nuts...
Posted by Syph on 02-Jun-2004 21:49:06 (#8528)
Hi guys,
Just dropping in for a quickie. I read some of the bad luck in Reno...I know it well. My worst losing streak was about 440 units in 100 hours.
(single deck, 1-10 spread)
What can you do?
Well, here`s something to naw on, from our good friend Clarke Cant. I found this post over at bjrnet.com, and thought it might give pause for discussion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
touchy subject for me
Posted by Clarke Cant on 22 August 2002, at 5:52 p.m., in response to any jobs for card counters, posted by ccounter on 22 August 2002, at 4:51 p.m.
gehrig knows why and has backed out of all relations with the oposition. It has to do with the Peoquats and some of my Galbreath ancestors, and attempts to link this to a banking case involving fools who think I am obligated to bail their sorry butts out.
But more to the point, try to get hold of every coupon you can. Try to find a job that has some tip earnings and salary and take your tips and try to do a bit of Wonging, considering your tips as a very small trip bankroll too.
As to counting for a salary, a team is being set up that does exactly that and I don't recomend joining them. The reason is that even small bankrolls can grow fairly quickly. These new teams don't let you reinvest your salary too often, when you come in on salary alone. Just go over the measure known as the long run index for the game rules and conditions you are able to find. It strips away the distorting ingredients that SCORE, a similar measure of game quality and conditions, has, to focus on what is most important: how fast can I grow my bankroll/how many hands does it take to double my money using a kelly=1 betting fraction?
For all of the ups and downs that your bankroll will take, betting with kelly=1, even starting out using a trip ruin formula and just playing as long as each night's extra cash lasts, for X being how much you wish to multiply your bankroll, log (x)/log (1+(1/(long run index))) will given you how many hands it takes to multiply your bankroll, with meadian. That is usually less hands than you might think, even though it will be a very bumpy ride, because this relationship holds: for k=your kelly bettin fraction, your probability of being at Z fraction of your previous peak bankroll, is Z*k^2 . That means that being at 30% of your previous bankroll high is 30% probable, with a kelly fraction of 1.
Amazingly enough this does not improve by much by cutting your kelly fraction down. A kelly fraction of 1/2, is 4 times less likely to have you at a reciprical of your previous highest bankroll level, but interestingly, due to the effects of proportional betting, not only does it grow your bankroll 4 times slower, but the probability that your results are due to your long term edge is still the same as with betting the kelly=1 fraction. The reason is that this level also does not cut your variance to expected value ratio. Safety has its price. There is more safety in growing your bankroll longterm than there is in cutting the ratio of the ups and downs to your total bankroll.
The problem is that we tend to see fluctuations in terms of purchasing power rather than keeping score, and we don't as humans tend to think long term unless forced to by competition. And as an individual counter we don't think of there being competition. Another aspect of this can be found in the comments favoring economic liberty by Thomas Jefferson, who not only stated that competition is what drives us to think in distant long terms to gain advantage, but the inability to plan long term when currency values change is what drives us to think short term such that: the morality of a nation is determined by the stability of its currency.
We are not planning to overthrow the Federal Reserve here, but everything in blackjack requires that we respond to winnning and losing only on very long terms, even while we observe and change tactics for everything else in the imeadiate short term. Being overly focused on the immeadiate ups and downs will cause you to give-up the one advantage that blackjack has over other advantage games: the shortness of that longrun index, and the ability to parlay our gains most.
To see this, and why we don't want to focus on such safety dancing, just go over how video poker has such dramaticly higher long run indexes than blackjack. Full pay dueces wild VP has about the same advantage as a good blackjack game, but it has a standard deviation per bet (considering 5 coins as a flat bet) of about 7.83 per play, while the same for flat bet Wonging (which is about your best best starting out in shoe county) has an SD of 1.26. this makes blackjack better by (7.83/1.26)^2 for growing your bankroll.
Just be sure that you top-off somewhere and learn as much as you can about other investments when you get toward where you have plenty of blackjack bankroll, are not trying to increase your betting level any further, and can take your investing to new levels.
In short this is doable but not for everyone
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have always enjoyed Clark`s writings.
As for why you guys are nuts ... get with the times.
Now is the Golden Age of Poker.
Best,
Syph
(Take care, probably won`t be able to respond too much, kinda busy, but all the best to everyone. Hope things are going well for you Eliot.)
What do you think of this "GOLDEN AGE" play?
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 03-Jun-2004 13:14:03 (#8544)
You are in the small blind. It is folded around to middle position and that player comes in with a raise. Fold, Call of the raise, Fold, Fold. You look down at your cards, you have the King of Clubs and the Jack of Diamonds. You know from past hands the big blind will probably put in an extra bet and call the raise. What do you do?
FOLD! -- your hand is too likely to come up 2nd best against a mid position raiser, the pot isn't really that big, you have another guy you has already called two bets cold, and you have really lousy position for the rest of the hand.
You are now on the button. In the wacky world of poker the betting goes: Call, Fold, Call, Fold, Call, Fold, Call. You look down at your cards and you have the 2 of Clubs and 2 of Spades. Two black Twos. What do you do?
CALL! -- and call again if the small or big blinds happen to raise. You have odds to try to hit trip dueces. Say the flop comes K T 2: you are going to get bet into and even raised. Your three of a kind is going to drag down a really nice pot against, for instance, KT two pair. Besides, if the flop doesn't hit you, a pair of twos is really easy to throw away!
hey syph...
Posted by zengrifter on 03-Jun-2004 13:56:50 (#8547)
... drop me a line at griftzen@yahoo.com zg
3:2 +150 Pay Offs and the Platinum Age
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 07-Jun-2004 19:02:59 (#8629)
Hey dude! Glad to see you surface again. Even your nuclear subs have to come up now and again. CC was crazy like a fox, and if that is all we can learn from his banterings, bless his disappeared backside.
I am on quest to have every bet I make pay off at (at least) 3:2.
Lots of info coming in about poker online. Big fish eating little ones, or lamprey sucking them dry after every paycheck. Great job if you like yourself after you've taken jr's shoes and din din for the next week. ;> Remember, the vibe master don't like you messin with the chillin.
Carry on my wayward son,
Catch you on your next resurface,
Rob
Seattle Blackjack
Posted by BlackJackHack on 03-Jun-2004 02:16:46 (#8532)
If anybody wants to DISCREETLY discuss Seattle blackjack (Coug Fan, I lost your email address!), please email me at yourworstnightmare@punkass.com
I Think CougFan Retired *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 03-Jun-2004 11:07:37 (#8541)
Coug Fan
Posted by Mr. V on 03-Jun-2004 23:25:11 (#8560)
He's posting at Wong's board.
"BJ21.com Free Message Board
Very beatable
Posted By: Coug Fan <Send E-Mail to this Poster>
Date: 28 May 04, 4:49 pm
In Response To: jokers (chance king)
Others can provide the details, but you have a huge edge off the top (until the jokers are out).
The general topic of Jokers is also covered in Professional BJ, although your specific rules may not be covered there."
Sorry, it was CougIt that retired *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Jun-2004 16:26:54 (#8569)
Asking again...
Posted by Cyrano on 03-Jun-2004 05:16:01 (#8535)
Has the Grosjean case started yet? :-)
Trial continued again
Posted by LVBear584 on 03-Jun-2004 18:10:36 (#8557)
Trial presently set for 10/19/2004.
Of course... AGAIN...
Posted by Cyrano on 03-Jun-2004 22:45:21 (#8559)
Will it ever start?? :-P
Bear,
I want to talk to you in private about the SF21 games. If you have the time and inclination, can you email me at nnevadabj@yahoo.com? Thanks!
--Cy
You have mail. *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 04-Jun-2004 16:51:27 (#8570)
Uston APC Indices
Posted by Simeon on 04-Jun-2004 00:01:35 (#8561)
On pages 112 and 113 of MDBJ, the tc indices are given as follows: Hit 12 vs 4 at 0 or less, Do not double 9 vs 2 at 0 or less, Do not soft double A4 vs 4 at 0 or less, Do not soft double A3 vs 4 at +1 or less, Do not soft double A2 vs 4 at +2 or less,Do not split 9,9 vs 2 at 0 or less, Do not split 6,6 vs 2 at 0 or less, Do not split 6,6 vs 3 at +1 or less, Do not split 2,2 vs 3 at +3 or less. I'm uncertain if my interpretation of these strategy index related decisions is correct. Someone please help!
Sounds okay.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 04-Jun-2004 13:14:26 (#8567)
Don't see anything really wrong with your indexes. Get the "Catch 22" down (The Illustrious 18 + 4 other plays) and if you play with surrender the "Fab 4" is a must. This is where the profits are, the rest is just fluff.
On your examples, 12 vs 4 is the only one that is going to be worth much money.
Splitting and soft double indexes are not worth much because of the rarity that the hand occurs. You could also just say NEVER soft double A4 vs 4 and A2 vs 5 -- and you will probably do just as well for the first million or so hands you play.
Thanks, Abraham *NM*
Posted by Simeon on 06-Jun-2004 09:31:24 (#8588)
are those accurate
Posted by John on 06-Jun-2004 14:58:21 (#8598)
Not sure how old MDBJ is but anyone know if the indices would be accurate?
I would generate the indices with software just to be sure.
Believe it or not, I simmed Stanford's Basic Hi-Lo indices that are supposed to be old and out-of-date alongside CVDATA's generated indices for Basic Hi-LO and Stanford came out a winner by like a dollar more an hour. 250 million rounds were used in the simulation.
Doesn't sound right
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 06-Jun-2004 15:53:33 (#8601)
Might re-check your sim to make sure you are doing an apple to apple comparison. Unless on set of numbers is really way off, there shouldn't be that big of a difference.
yep
Posted by John on 06-Jun-2004 17:47:01 (#8609)
you know too much
Hands Hands Dollars/Hour Dollars/Hour Units Advantage Advantage Advantage Std. Dev. Std. Dev. Std. Dev. Std. Dev.
Seat Played Skipped Action WinRate W/L TBA% IBA% SE Hand Hour 100 Shoe DI
1 3.9701e7 2.1131e8 $1,354.60 $12.85 1,285,334 0.949 1.096 .018 5.30 53.0 53.0 12.0 6.27
2 3.9771e7 2.1131e8 $1,361.41 $13.36 1,336,363 0.982 1.139 .018 5.33 53.3 53.3 12.0 6.48
3 2.5699e8 $2,838.28 ($13.11) -1,311,032 -0.462 -0.524 .007 1.16 11.6 11.6 6.7 0.00
4
You are right. Here is my sloppy posting of the results.
Seat 1 was Basic Hi-Lo created by CVDATa
Seat 2 was Wong's basic Hi-Lo
Uston APC indices
Posted by BlackJackHack on 07-Jun-2004 07:35:32 (#8615)
I believe your interpretations are correct. However....
I have generated my own indices for Uston APC using SBA, and have discovered that some of the indices in MDBJ (written circa 1980?) are wrong.
For example, my indices show that (if DAS is allowed) you should split 2,2 v 3 at -6 or higher, and you should split 6,6 v 3 at -4 or higher (with very slight variations depending on the # of decks). These are basic strategy plays, so the index must be 0 or lower.
Thanks, BlackJackHack *NM*
Posted by Simeon on 09-Jun-2004 21:18:35 (#8688)
How Many Units Down Are You From Your All Time High BR?
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Jun-2004 16:25:42 (#8568)
And how many hours have you played since that all time high?
144 units
and
28 hours
not units but
Posted by suicyco maniac on 04-Jun-2004 18:32:45 (#8573)
I was down about 85 MAX bets after 160 hours of play last week but am digging back out!!! SM
update
Posted by suicyco maniac on 04-Jun-2004 21:47:58 (#8578)
Just dumped another 16 MAX bets in 2 hours of play in an EXCELENT game!! SM
Ouch!
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Jun-2004 14:32:50 (#8619)
That is tough! It will turn around, you just have to hope you don't wear out your welcome as it begins to swing back in your favor. :-)
I am also a lifetime loser at one particular casino that offers a positive ev game for a basic strategy ploppy. I have played more hours at this casino than any other. I cannot understand why I am a loser there. There are many other casinos with weaker games where I'm significantly ahead. Go figure.
Ugly
Posted by ZOD on 05-Jun-2004 17:11:09 (#8585)
Around 700 units down from my all time high. The high point was about 300 playing hours ago. It's been a long bumpy skid.
Best,
ZOD
still climbing
Posted by John on 06-Jun-2004 14:51:48 (#8597)
I just reached another all-time high this week. I am so new that I probably shouldn't even be in this thread.
I go more by trip-to-trip when I think about all-time highs. I could have reached this amount in an earlier trip and lost it so quickly that I wasn't aware of it.
Enjoy
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 06-Jun-2004 15:59:20 (#8603)
According to "The Theory of Blackjack" you won't be at an all time high 90% of the time. It always seems like you were further ahead in the past, and are always catching up. Enjoy it while you can!
That Is a bad streak
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Jun-2004 14:34:54 (#8620)
What are you doing to get through it? I can only imagine how tough it must be.
Bad streak
Posted by ZOD on 07-Jun-2004 18:52:08 (#8628)
It's a bad streak and I've been done all the normal things: practice, analyze my play, practice, look at the particular conditions of the really bad losses, practice, reread some of my favorite books for inspiration, practice...you get the picture.
Funny thing is, I seem to have discovered a particular pattern to the devastation. Much of it involves a single dealer who gives 5/6 or better penetration. I began to suspect a little overbetting on my part at the end of the deep shoe (damn unbalanced count) and I made an adjustment or two in my play. I began inching back up until March when an otherwise pleasant dealer at Caesar's beat the crap out of me in one nightmarish weekend.
So...there might be a silver lining after all. At my absolute worst point, I was 915 units down from my all time high. But May was better and so far June looks good. July will see me back in Vegas for a little revenge on Rome. (God, I look forward to the food!) And to top it off, I might have learned something from all this flogging.
Best,
ZOD
ZOD
Posted by suicyco maniac on 07-Jun-2004 19:36:08 (#8633)
Whats your unit spread??
Spread
Posted by ZOD on 08-Jun-2004 18:34:30 (#8663)
Honestly, anything I can get away with. I play mostly 6D with a minimum spread of 1-12 and maximum (under the right conditions) of 1-2X20.
Best,
ZOD
ZOD
Posted by suicyco maniac on 08-Jun-2004 21:49:08 (#8671)
Thats why I like to tald max bets cuz at times I too have been known to spread well beyond what anyone thinks is imaginable.. 2X20 is not even close.. thanks for the clarification!! SM
6:5 BJ Layout
Posted by djmcosmo on 04-Jun-2004 18:13:04 (#8572)
About the 6:5 1D BJ games: I know that the table limit sign says "Blackjack pays 6 to 5", however does the table layout (felt) still say "3 to 2"? Do you have any pictures of the 6:5 layout?
Most have a 6:5 Layout.....
Posted by phantom007 on 16-Jun-2004 00:40:57 (#8814)
though, as I posted over on bj21 a while back, I saw a 3:2 layout being used for a 6:5 SD game at the LV Fla-Hilt in April of this year. I started to sit down to play, when I saw a little "plackard" sign that read "BJ Pays 'shit'".
Thought about playing, and when I caught a snapper, "making a scene", demanding 3:2 as stated in LARGE LETTERS on the felt table...not the 6:5 "NEARLY braile" sign half-hidden behind the discard rack.
However, I just went on, since:
(A) I was feasting on their 60% pen. DD game, with several PC's and one Host trying to convince me to stay THERE FREE next trip, all while using a blatant 6:1 spread!
(B) Even though I was not staying there, I was attending an "Employer Financed AND Required Conference" at this site. Would be hard to explain that I missed the last 2 days of the conf. "because I was 86'd".
Did not want to create a TYPICAL phantom007 SITUATION:
1. Hooker comes to room, offers Oral for $100., Regular for $150., or "Around the World" for $200.
2. I decline, and offer $300. if she will attend the conference and on the Attendance Roster, sign in as...............
"phantom007".
Why it is Wrong to Count Cards
Posted by djm on 04-Jun-2004 19:05:14 (#8576)
Card counting is wrong for several reasons:
1. It makes blackjack less fun. Blackjack should be a GAME. When you
count cards it makes the game WORK and less FUN.
2. It threatens the casino's bankroll. Casinos in many parts of North
America are struggling to make ends meet. Cards counters have led many
casinos (including Binion's Horseshoe) into bankruptcy and closure.
3. To compensate, casinos have to change the rules. This hurts all
players. Card counters have cost casinos so much money at Blackjack
that they have been forced to reduce the payoff on Blackjack from 3:2
to 6:5. If card counters continue to ruin the game casinos could be
forced to remove Blackjack altogether!
Please don't count cards!
That's the kind of BS that casinos want you to beleive. Casinos in
fact make over 67% of their revenue from slot machines. Of the 37%
they make from table games, approximately 50% is from BJ. That means
that 18.5% of casino revenue comes from BJ. Only about 1% of BJ
players count cards. That means that BJ players will probably only
"threaten" .185% of the casino's bankroll!
The best card-counters will gain a 2% edge on the house. This means
that the OVERALL effect from card counters is .0037%.
I blame the ploppies, not the counters
Posted by Sonny on 06-Jun-2004 16:24:36 (#8604)
Good post djm. I just have a few comments.
> Card counting is wrong for several reasons:
> 1. It makes blackjack less fun. Blackjack should be a GAME. When you
> count cards it makes the game WORK and less FUN.
Counting cards is EASY! Once you get the hang of it, it is almost like second nature. The count tells you exactly how much to bet and how to play your hands. This is MUCH easier than using your "inuition" to play. Not to mention the fact that is is more fun to win than it is to lose. Therefore, counting cards makes the game EASIER and MORE FUN!
> 2. It threatens the casino's bankroll. Casinos in many parts of North
> America are struggling to make ends meet. Cards counters have led many
> casinos (including Binion's Horseshoe) into bankruptcy and closure.
Card counters didn't bankrupt the Horseshoe, Becky Binion did. Next they'll be saying the card counters are responsible for the Silver Slipper closing!
> 3. To compensate, casinos have to change the rules. This hurts all
> players. Card counters have cost casinos so much money at Blackjack
> that they have been forced to reduce the payoff on Blackjack from 3:2
> to 6:5.
The casinos are greedy for more money, PERIOD! Even without card counters they would change the rules in order to get more money. Why do you think they vary the payouts for video poker? Why do you think they don't post the payouts of the slot machines at all? Why do you think they all offer American roulette instead of European?
> If card counters continue to ruin the game casinos could be forced to remove
> Blackjack altogether!
People have been counting cards in casinos for over 40 years. The casinos have know about it for over 40 years. The casinos know that they are still earning money from blackjack. In fact, they DID remove standard blackjack when Thorp's book came out, but they soon realized that they would still earn money from it. The only way that blackjack will die is if the ploppies keep ignorantly playing the 6:5 games. If it wasn't for the ploppies the 6:5 games would have been removed MONTHS AGO.
> Please don't count cards!
PLEASE DON'T BE A PLOPPY!
-Sonny-
It's just a game
Posted by Victoria on 07-Jun-2004 16:33:54 (#8624)
Speaking for myself, when I play a game, I play to win.
If you play a game and know you have to loose, you are not going to continue playing unless you have some other problem.
Simply, it is a competition between you and the house, and winning is fun. The so called work. Well, anyone who has ever been good at any competition puts in tons of work to get to that level. An athelete, spelling bee champ, or a business exec, they did their homework and reap the rewards. To me that is enjoyable or fun.
Perhaps that is why I do not play other casino games except a little VP but do look at the pay tables first.
The fun is in the winning, much more than in the playing.
Victoria a girl who had to compete with three older brothers.
You know, you are really smart for a girl! *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jun-2004 18:07:52 (#8626)
for a girl!!!
Posted by Victoria on 07-Jun-2004 18:18:26 (#8627)
Oh well, cardcounting is still guy country, I can take it but be careful.
suggestions for studying counting
Posted by Invictus on 04-Jun-2004 22:26:25 (#8579)
I am currently serving in Iraq. I spoke with Zengrifter and took knock-out blackjack with me. I have made flashcards and am studying the basic strat and the counts. Any other suggestions on the best way to study while on the other side of the world? Thanks all for any help. All is well out here in the desert.
Practice, Practice, Practice!
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Jun-2004 14:06:41 (#8618)
Read, Read, Read! Then practice some more. I would never second guess the Grifter so I won't talk about KO, but you should learn about the other count available as well as figure out which type games you are likely to have available to you. BTW, thanks for serving.
Maccau
Posted by Ohio_Jones on 05-Jun-2004 14:29:13 (#8583)
Going to have a layover in HK with a couple of hours to spend. Any recommendations for any worthwhile casinos there.
Playing abroad
Posted by Royam on 05-Jun-2004 14:36:25 (#8584)
I was wondering if playing in a country where you are not native speaker is an option. I mean, playing in France with an American accent or playing in Italy with a French accent is something that will help the casino staff remember you more easily, no?
Any of you has experienced it?
Royam
It is a challenge.
Posted by Witling on 06-Jun-2004 14:24:52 (#8594)
I've played in the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Costa Rico and Colombia.
It can be a little indimidating when you aren't fluent in the local dialect
but it can be done. I doubt than the dealers really care who you are. Most of them are so intimidated by management they are more concerned about keeping their jobs.
The best part is not knowing what the other players are saying when you hit that 12 against a 2 and take the dealer's bust card.
In April I was playing in Cali, Colombia. They were dealing a 6D shoe with surrender (by drawing a line behind your bet, universal everywhere except Biloxi), 5 card automatic winner and allowed you to DOUBLE DOWN after splitting Aces. Sweet.
They had a person sitting between every other table in a chair about 3 feet higher than the table, similar to a lifeguard stand to watch everything.
You also have to go through a metal detector and get hand-wanded for weapons upon entering. They also checked the ladies' purses.
I was up 350,000 pesos but lost it all on my last 2 hands. Total loss, $32.
Thank you Witling
Posted by Royam on 07-Jun-2004 20:16:42 (#8635)
My problem is that English is not my first language. I am fluent, but can't get rid of my accent totally.
I guess it would not be a big deal in Vegas since it is full of tourists anyway, but what about other places in the US? Maybe being labelled as the guy with the BIIIIIP accent wouldn't help staying unnoticed?
Royam
check your e-mail *NM*
Posted by John on 06-Jun-2004 21:29:44 (#8613)
Backed off...from table 14 (long)
Posted by ZOD on 06-Jun-2004 12:03:00 (#8590)
Some time back, I'm in a casino where I'm on a pleasant first name basis with many of the dealers and pit personnel. The games offered are only decent, but very playable with the spreads that are allowed. I'd been at a 6D table for an hour or so, up a few units, when the count skyrocketed in the middle of the shoe. I shoved out my max bet and (as often seems to be the case) I got the dreaded 16 with the dealer showing a queen. Unfortunately, I had no surrender option so my only choice was to stand and take my medicine.
I had been joking with the dealer and talking about hands we'd seen, people at the tables and such, so I pulled a minor stunt that's usually good for a laugh: While hesitating as if I was unsure what to do, I asked the dealer what she had down. She smiled and quipped that she couldn't tell me that. So I leaned over so that my head was at the table level and tried to look under her downcard. Coming up, I immediately announced "I'll stay. You've got a six under there." The expected laugh did not follow. She got a very serious look on her face and called the floor. He came over, said hello to me, and asked what was up. She explained that I had looked under her downcard and that it was a six so I had chosen to stay. He thought for a second and then asked if I could really see the card. I told him not really; I just did it for a laugh.
He didn't laugh. He told her to finish the hand. I stayed and she turned over...of course, a six and proceeded to bust! She paid me off and he congratulated me and turned and walked away. Though I was happy to have won, I didn't at all like the vibe that I was getting, so I decided to play a few more high count hands and take my leave.
After three or four more hands the pit boss returned with a look grim enough to send a chill down my spine. He told the dealer to stop dealing and said, "Mr. Zod, I'm afraid that I'm going to have to ask you to..." Sh*t, I thought. All this over a joke. Then he finished, "...move to another table." I told him I didn't understand and he explained that they had decided to close this table and I could move to another. I did, played a few more hands, and then left for the steakhouse dinner that he had comped me earlier.
I ran into him a couple of hours later and he asked me again if I had actually seen the downcard. "Of course, I said. "That's why I always win so much." He had a good laugh and told me he'd see me next weekend.
Since then, I have played in this casino many times with no residual effect other than the joke that I'm not allowed to play at table 14.
Best,
ZOD
wow
Posted by John on 06-Jun-2004 16:52:47 (#8607)
wow, that is a new one. I know what you mean, though. It seems like there is so much money flowing back and forth from dealer to customer that the dealers and pit bosses often lose their sense of humor.
One time, I said "I need a blackjack !". The dealer thought I said, "I need a black back." and immediately called for the pitboss to come over. A ploppy realized what was going on and stepped in and said, "no, he said he wanted a blackjack." and problem was solved.
I wish I had been at your table. It sounded like a funny joke to me. I guess if you win a giant bet like it sounds like you had out, the pit bosses can't really laugh at the jokes.
I need to be a pit boss for one day. I think it would help me be a better blackjack player.
"Pit boss for a day"
Posted by LVBear584 on 06-Jun-2004 18:02:45 (#8610)
I need to be a pit boss for one day. I think it would help me be a better blackjack player.
Several years ago, I enrolled at a dealer's course for exactly that purpose. It was well worth the time and money.
Back to School
Posted by Hal Jordan on 06-Jun-2004 19:23:49 (#8611)
I'm glad to hear that it was worth the time because I have been considering doing the same thing.
HJ
Do you think they retain your profile?
Posted by Royam on 06-Jun-2004 22:23:14 (#8614)
I can imagine that casino employees get their photo and ID in a big file... doesn't sound like something a card counter would like, does it?
Royam
I've had the same thoughts
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Jun-2004 14:02:15 (#8617)
In fact I remember mentioning something to that effect on one of the boards and got alot of negative feed back about working for the other side and the like. I agree with you guys that it is very important to know the enemy. That's why I like to visit the dealer message board so much. I wish I had a good friend or relative who worked for the casinos.
Could you give me the link to the dealer message board plz? *NM*
Posted by Royam on 07-Jun-2004 21:17:15 (#8639)
Ok
Posted by SammyBoy on 08-Jun-2004 13:38:38 (#8655)
Talk about a bitter bunch!
Thanks SammyBoy *NM*
Posted by Royam on 08-Jun-2004 15:40:46 (#8658)
cute story, but you never really know
Posted by Victoria on 07-Jun-2004 16:19:10 (#8623)
You never really know what is going on between dealers, the pit, the eye and the boss. 99 of 100 times your joke is taken as a joke. One out of 13 times you actually call the correct hole card (keep a 6 side count and you may improve on this)
The thing is, did they have someone yesterday getting hole card info? Did they have some dealer cheating with players? Is that dealer under unusal suspicion? Is there an internal thing going on between eye and pit? These kind of things can turn a good joke into a problem for these people today while it might have been a laugh for them yesterday.
After shutting down the table someone might have reviewed the tapes, checked the cards for marking (tough in the shoe game) or might have sat in your seat and actually checked to see how low they had to sit to see the card based upon the dealers method of dealing.
Since you are welcomed there (except for table 14) I would guess the use of your mental powers to predict dealer stiffs is now completely allowed, so you can continue to use these powers as cover. Beware! eventually you may be barred from every table, one at a time.
Victoria
True
Posted by ZOD on 07-Jun-2004 19:07:37 (#8631)
Your right. You can't always know what they're thinking inside that pit. (Or upstairs, for that matter.) In the long run though, I've gotten plenty of mileage out of that day. The pit boss involved once even told the story to a few other players at my table, commenting on my remarkable eyesight.
Though I enjoy the challenge of establishing good rapport and pride myself on my gambling "act", I think no damage was really done simply because I'm a consistent loser on their tables. (Grin) After looking at my numbers, I'm sure they concluded that I was welcome in the their casino even with my "superpowers."
Best,
ZOD
Ever gotten a 'tell' from a dealer?
Posted by Witling on 06-Jun-2004 15:05:11 (#8600)
I heard Max Rubin on the World Series of Blackjack mention that one of the players was watching the dealer when she checked her hole card.
Have any of you ever gained anything from watching the dealer while they were checking?
Any other tells you've picked up?
I'll be in LAS next weekend (June 10-14). What would be your top 3 places to play $10-$50 blackjack?
Yes...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 07-Jun-2004 22:43:28 (#8641)
A couple of examples:
I was at a table where there were several rounds where everyone was getting stiff hands against dealer 10's. After a couple of these all the drunks at the table were feigning disappointment at the stiffs even though they were were just tipsy and having fun. When they did get good hands they would cheer and laugh and tip.
After awhile the dealer sort of fell victim to the reinforcement schedule. We got her on our side. When checking hole cards she would smile if she had a crap card and wince at a 10. Although I've never tried, I imagine the right people with the right dealer could force this situation.
Another dealer while checking her hole card would audibly just say "perfect" or "alright" under her breath with low cards in the hole. But situations this blatant are rare.
If you run across anything like this, take names for future visits!
-Felix
Uhh....
Posted by Brillo on 07-Jun-2004 23:59:35 (#8643)
Explain to me how this helps. Dealers can only see Aces and Tens. If they see an ace or a ten, they turn their snapper over. If they don't see an ace or a ten, they don't know what the hell they have. They know as much as you know, what their top card is.
There are still some casinos where the dealer actually looks at the hole card, not thru a peeker *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 08-Jun-2004 11:16:28 (#8653)
Even with a Peeker
Posted by MrPill on 08-Jun-2004 11:36:04 (#8654)
I have played against a couple of dealers that when they had an Ace up, while offering insurance slid the cards under the peek mirror. So they actually knew the hole card before closing insurance.
And then depending on how fast or slow they closed insurance, gave a tell on the hole card. The dealer was having a good time at the table (fun, tipping players)and seem to be trying to "offer" this information.
I took insurance whenever they hesitated to close it (unjustified by the count)and was rewarded everytime during these sessions. So I guess situations do arise that may be intentional or unintentional even when a peeker is present.
Pill
what about this situation
Posted by John on 08-Jun-2004 17:20:44 (#8660)
I came across a dealer who was bending the crap out of his hole cards. When he would put them in the discard tray, they were so bent that the card would actually be raised up leaving a small gap. I couldn't believe it. He was doing this almost everytime, though so I'm not sure what the value would be.
Warps
Posted by MrPill on 09-Jun-2004 12:16:51 (#8678)
John,
This is actually a tell that has been discussed in a few books. I don't remember which one(s) though, I have quite a few in my library.
But the premise would be that not only is the whole card being bent, but also the top card. What this means is that the 10's and A's are being "bent" more often then the other cards because they are the ones causing the dealer to peek, being the up card.
This would be of value during an insurance call if you see a warped or bent card under the dealers ace.
Pill
"Winning without counting" by Wong
Posted by suicyco maniac on 09-Jun-2004 21:05:33 (#8686)
And also in "Blackjack secrets" by Wong along with a few other books I cannot recall at this time. SM
Ever gotten a 'tell' from a dealer?
Posted by deZerTomB on 08-Jun-2004 19:05:56 (#8665)
oh yeah most obvious ones in the red chip tables when the dealer sees almost no one win money. Dealer will say you sure you want a hit after you scratch yourcards and he has gotten a peak at the top card.
does that make sense?
The sequence:
player indicates hit.
dealer peaks
dealer asks "you sure?"
player says "uh maybe not"
dealer says "stay"
player says "ok" and tucks cards.
of course this would rarely happen you would think, but it has happened to me several times. also of course ther have been many variations, non-verbal, body language.
But don't vary too much from your counting strategy unless it's a blatant tell.
For instance, with a negative count, the dealer would have to show me the 10 before I would stay on 12 against anything the dealer has and a small bet out.
This is pitch game only. obviously dealer can't peak with shoe. as easily hehe.
Also, beware of the dealer just feeding you basic stratgy and not peeking.
best "tell" was yars ago @ silver city.
Posted by gehrig on 10-Jun-2004 13:34:54 (#8717)
dealer had a jack, i had ten and six. i mumbled...hmmm, i wonder what i should do (count was neutral). the dealer asked: "what would you do against a pair of jacks" ?
binions
Posted by edwards on 09-Jul-2004 21:18:03 (#9182)
When binions dealers used to check (mid 1990s) they had the worst poker faces in town. My friend and I kept track of how often we could read the dealers expression and we were correct about 90% of the time. Ace up was not much of an advantage. However, when they had a ten up it was easy to read whether they were hanging tough. Especially when they did the double take when they saw the four under there (which looks like the ace at first).
The mirrors ruined this advantage. Ended up staying on a LOT of 14, 15, and 16s. Those were the good old days.
Tells
Posted by Virgin Counter on 12-Jul-2004 20:14:48 (#9256)
Yes! This finally happened to me. Dealer double checked the hole card real quickly -- I had read in one of my BJ books that when a dealer double checks their hole card they are most likely have a four buried which can look like the dreaded Ace buried. I took a chance and doubled my 9 against the dealer and hit a 9. Sure enough the dealer turned over a four and then hit a 3 for a 17.
MGM trying to buy Mandalay Bay
Posted by Big Cowboy on 07-Jun-2004 08:39:12 (#8616)
Great another merger between overleveraged casino companies. Looks like MGM is having trouble growing just by itself.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5151683/
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