At one time, the website CardCounter.com held an active message forum with many contributors. When the previous site owner planned to shut down the site, he allowed us to archive the messages here at BlackjackInfo. They are formatted as they originally appeared, but no further comments on threads are permitted. If you want to discuss any of these topics, please do so at the BlackjackInfo Forums.
We have to tell the man our name ...
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Jun-2004 09:56:53 (#8882)
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/21/scotus.police.id.ap/index.html
I wonder if this will have any effect on our rights in casinos?
--Mayor
Here is the list.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 21-Jun-2004 10:59:36 (#8883)
Justices were told that 20 states have similar laws to the Nevada statute upheld by the high court:
Alabama, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New York, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Utah, Vermont, and Wisconsin.
Oh, And I hope your quiz asking if you have to show a LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL your ID when requested is corrected.
What happened to "Right to remain silent" *NM*
Posted by John on 24-Jun-2004 23:23:49 (#8955)
mebbe not to the private, casino security staff.
Posted by gehrig on 21-Jun-2004 11:25:57 (#8886)
but since nevada gaming regs permit that private force to detain, for a "reasonable" time, a "suspect" until summoning police ("metro" in clark county), likely that i.d. would (now if not previously) have to be furnished. this could be interesting for those who would carry false identity documents. on the face of it, there aren't too many legitimate reasons for maintaining alternative (non legally changed), i.d./paperwork. perhaps the more innocent might be to hide from creditors, process servers, or ex-wives' attornies/gubbmit authorities bent on capturing delinquent child support or alimony.
as to justification, my ken is that the greater good of protecting the u.s. citizens from infiltration by terrorists planning on serious acts, will override the "sovereign citizen" agenda. it's amusing to me that the leftist agenda is seeking mileage from that "9-11 committee" while they have some record of resisting any infringement of citizens' rights insofar as this, i.d. issue pertains. can't have it both ways. of course, that same leftist agenda would have the borders "opened".
could be that the "advantage" player might better carry zero i.d., rather than something false. i'd think that using false i.d. even only to gain a freebie barfet, could constitute some fraud. i'm known under different names in different joints, but never the result of any paper documentation.
It gets worse.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 21-Jun-2004 15:04:35 (#8892)
Post 9/11 false identification is a major no-no. All those terrorists had false IDs, remember? The first person arrested after 9/11 was the guy in Virgina (non-terrorist, just a scum bag) who supplied them with the IDs.
Not having an ID at all is an even bigger no-no. At that point the police can take you and hold you until they can identify you. Who knows? You might be one of the missing hijackers.
Like the song says ...
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Jun-2004 13:41:15 (#8889)
... "This is NOT America!" zg
Terrible ruling
Posted by LVBear584 on 21-Jun-2004 14:42:18 (#8890)
I wonder if this will have any effect on our rights in casinos?
Casino managers can now call their corrupt friends in Gaming to come and ID someone under threat of arrest.
A truly horrible decision, with implications far beyond our little corner of the casino world. A sad day for our country.
The problem with casinos...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-Jun-2004 13:46:43 (#8904)
...is that it is unlawful to be in them if you are under a certain age and asking for ID is part of making sure you are in compliance with that law. It's not like walking down the street, which is something that anyone has the right to do. This is especially applicable to the younger guys here because if you are seen placing a wager or with a drink in your hand and you fail to show ID when asked, you can (and probably will) be arrested on suspicion of underage drinking or gambling and they will be completely within their rights.
Please continue this thread on the non-BJ page
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Jun-2004 13:44:37 (#9004)
Because many of the posts appearing recently in this thread were not about blackjack or advantage gaming at all, I deleted the posts. Please continue the discussion on the non-BJ page.
Thanks,
--Mayor
Be sure to watch this on Fox Sports Net
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Jun-2004 17:23:33 (#8894)
Be sure to watch this on Fox Sports Net...
Friday, June 25, 2004
4:00pm Championship Poker at the Plaza #1 from Las Vegas, NV
If you look closely at the audience towards the very end of the head's up match, you might see me in the audience... sitting in the center. I'm also there for the awards ceremony.
--Mayor
Wow I always wanted to be on TV!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 21-Jun-2004 20:03:02 (#8896)
Ugly
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Jun-2004 20:46:04 (#8897)
I just got lucky.
The guys who sat around me were pretty ugly. I think there was one cute lady in front of me. It was a no talent job, but hey, someone had to do it.
--Mayor
Mayor the movie star!
Posted by Tom on 22-Jun-2004 02:38:34 (#8898)
Hi Mayor, I wont ask the the dumb question if you worry or care about revealing your identity and picture to casino employees,but will ask a question that I'm sure many would find interesting(which is,_ If anyone has actually ever walked up to you at a casino and said "Hey,you like that pro card counter who put a picture of him on the internet!" or something to that effect. If so,how did you react?
Answers
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Jun-2004 12:04:39 (#8903)
>I wont ask the the dumb question if you worry or care about revealing your identity and picture to casino employees,
Isn't that my picture up there to the left?
>but will ask a question that I'm sure many would find interesting(which is,_ If anyone has actually ever walked up to you at a casino and said "Hey,you like that pro card counter who put a picture of him on the internet!"
Actually, this has happened MANY times, many advantage players have recognized me by my posted pictures and media appearances. But it has NEVER happened that a casino employee recognized me by my posted picture or media appearances. That says something about the relative IQs of the two groups.
--Mayor
You are so right !
Posted by John on 24-Jun-2004 23:03:28 (#8952)
About the relative IQ thing. I just got back from my trip. I lost.
Anyway, a ploppy wanted to double down an A, 8 vs 6 and people were telling him "no, you don't want to do that" and all this riff raff. Actually, it was the correct play. He ended up doing it and I ended up losing my big bet. He had $5 out and I had about $150 out. Afterward, the dealer started scolding him for it. He pointed to my bet then to his. He is betting this and you are betting that. I stepped in and said "no no no". I told the guy to play however he wants to. The guy was making some decent plays. He wasn't counting, though because his bet never was bigger than $5.
On my 4 day trip, I saw so many dumb things that I soon became kind of irritated. It wasn't the dumb blackjack plays but the way people were treating each other. One guy made the comment "I was doing alright until these two jumped in" pointing to me and this older fella. I said, "You aren't blaming me are you?" He shook his head. I normally wouldn't have said anything but I was getting fed up. I was also losing.
This other pimp-looking guy in a very bright red suit and bright red hat started pacing behind me saying "I hate it when fools jump-in in the middle of da shoe. I hate it." He repeated that about 4 times hoping I heard it. I stayed and played even when the shoe was negative just to spite him.
Did you see Phil Hellmuth ?
Posted by John on 25-Jun-2004 16:05:17 (#8979)
He is one of my favorite poker players. He is just funny to watch. I saw him laying in one of the booths after being knocked out in 43rd place. I guess I'll have to wait for the next episode to see you, Mayor.
Did that take place in California ?
If I lived out there, I'd probably go to those poker championships, too.
Was it possible to meet Phil Hellmuth or any of the other poker players? Just want to get a feel of what it was like. I'm star-struck what can I say. If Stanford Wong sat at my blackjack table, I wouldn't be able to count.
Totally disappointing
Posted by marathonslim on 25-Jun-2004 18:32:50 (#8986)
Really thought that show left a lot to be desired. They didn't tell us it was opening day and was taped on the 5th (even though they finished at 1:30 am on the 6th)not the 6th like the promo said. The sixth was the final match.
I was looking forward to seeing you guys on there. I missed it ( I was taking a tour of vegas with a buddy of mine). They were supposed to start at noon and we did not want to wait around till they actually did start at 1:30 pm.
Let us know when the finals are on.
thanks
We'll have to wait for the finals...
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Jun-2004 18:58:38 (#8988)
Yes, I thought today was the finals... I read that it is a 4 hour show, so today was the first of the 4. Who knows when they'll get to the final... we'll have to keep watch.
--Mayor
Annoucning: The Cellini Interview
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2004 13:15:05 (#8908)
It is with great appreciation that I announce the posting of "Voodoo Child (Slight Return): An interview with D.V. Cellini" by Toddler.
Cellini, Toddler, and Molly Bloom have given our community a great gift through this interview, and we are deeply thankful.
http://www.cardcounter.com/Interview_Celini.htm
--Mayor
Very Interesting
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Jun-2004 15:24:24 (#8909)
Mississippi has some pretty good blackjack as well. I was in California last year near Palm Springs and did not find the games that good. I guess I will have to plan a trip to Barona.
Forget Barona
Posted by LVBear584 on 23-Jun-2004 17:31:43 (#8914)
A bunch of CSM's and otherwise nearly universal poor penetration. A waste of your time.
Still...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Jun-2004 04:43:41 (#8927)
"nearly universal poor penetration" however can be thought of as good penetration available but you have to look for it. I couldn't care less what the pen is on any table but mine. The highly favorable rules and tolerant pit there still make it better than most DD games out there.
Yes, but ...
Posted by LVBear584 on 24-Jun-2004 14:48:51 (#8934)
"nearly universal poor penetration" however can be thought of as good penetration available but you have to look for it.
It sounded to me like Sammy Boy was thinking about a special trip to Barona. It is not worth going out of his way for in the slim hope of finding a good dealer and playable conditions. If he happens to be in the area, it's certainly worth checking out. But that's not how I interpreted his remarks.
You're right
Posted by SammyBoy on 24-Jun-2004 15:51:37 (#8938)
Thanks for the warning. I just continue visiting Mississippi.
LOL
Posted by Pro21 on 24-Jun-2004 20:43:33 (#8949)
This sounds like someone trying to protect their candy store.
No Message!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Jun-2004 14:53:43 (#8935)
Sammy. Please send your comment re my head size to robmcgarvey@rogers.com I'd love to laugh about that with you if you don't mind. ;>
Kudo's to Toddler, and Molly. Cellini is great subject material, so you both had a head start. Don't let your heads get as big as mine is. I'm reading The Donald's new book. Has a lot to say about being confident in it, so we are all in good company.
What Happened to That Post I made?
Posted by SammyBoy on 24-Jun-2004 15:54:55 (#8939)
It was all in fun, no malice intended. Did it get busted?
I busted the whole thread
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Jun-2004 17:06:15 (#8943)
I think Cellini deserves better than a thread about head-size. I had no problem with it otherwise. It was purely an aesthetic decision.
--Mayor
Thanks Bud
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 25-Jun-2004 07:04:40 (#8960)
Now, the LVHCM. You say it ain't real (your IQ test) and Cellini says it's real. Whatsup?!?
Nice job by Toddler *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 23-Jun-2004 17:32:07 (#8915)
And Molly Bloom! *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2004 19:18:36 (#8918)
Whoops, The Mayor is right. Sorry, Molly. *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 23-Jun-2004 23:19:25 (#8924)
Very Nice
Posted by Waldo on 23-Jun-2004 21:24:38 (#8923)
That was a very entertaining article. But if you eve do run for public office, I would suggest dog catcher. You will most likely find the clientele easy to work with.
I think we owe a big 'Thank You' to Toddler and Molly! *NM*
Posted by Radar on 23-Jun-2004 23:56:47 (#8925)
A great read ...
Posted by Syph on 24-Jun-2004 03:23:04 (#8926)
Bjfonline rocked.
It opened the doors, however briefly, to contact with people I`d only heard about in myth and legend.
No kidding.
Thanks to everyone for a great read. And if anyone is in contact with Molly, please give her a virtual hug from Syph.
(And an apology for crashing her table that one time ...)
Best,
Syph
As scobee once said on bjfo...
Posted by toddler on 24-Jun-2004 15:14:37 (#8936)
... "the line forms somewhere behind toddler." I've passed many virtual hugs her way and continue to do so. She's been extremely inspirational and her talent of stringing letters, spaces and punctuation marks together in a professional and coherent manner continues to amaze me. I'm certain I'm not telling you anything new.
Glad you all enjoyed the interview.
She'll read your remarks, Syph. I'll bet my entire bankroll on that roll of the dice. Good to see you still around.
toddler
Molly and Old Times
Posted by Sohrab on 24-Jun-2004 15:35:23 (#8937)
I too would like to hug her, platonically of course. She will understand why I say that.
I am happy to be seeing old friends here. I miss Arnold's forum but this is the next best thing, I think.
Thanks I enjoyed the interview!!! *NM*
Posted by Jackblack21 on 25-Jun-2004 17:41:52 (#8985)
Syph, from Molly
Posted by toddler on 24-Jun-2004 19:15:11 (#8947)
So for Syph, please pass on my regards. Tell him I might double down on his hard ten when he least expects it.
Straight from my email to here.
toddler
:)
Posted by syph on 24-Jun-2004 21:01:00 (#8950)
So for Syph, please pass on my regards. Tell him I might double down on his hard ten when he least expects it.
How can you not love this woman?
Thanks again, Toddler, very nice to see you about. I hope the game has enriched your life.
It`s a fascinating subculture, yes?
Best,
Syph
(p.s. Molly, I assure you ... In your presence, my game is always elevated.)
Bet Spread when count changes in one hand
Posted by Boarding on 23-Jun-2004 15:49:11 (#8910)
Ok,
So, I am still studying and learning after my 600 unit win during my first experience. How I did that - I to this day don't know. Luck had a big part to do with it, combined with some good play, and 'sorta' counting.
Looking back I wasn't able to really stay with the count well through an entire 6 shoe deck. At times I could, at times I couldn't. So, looking back, I think what I was doing was 'clump' counting. i.e. if there were 20 cards on the table and the count would change say 5 pts or so towards player-advantage. I would spread. Seemed to work, some.
Is there a known technique for such a thing? It intuitively makes sense to me that for every 15 cards played, the count should change about 1 pt towards player favor... if it changes more. We have the advantage?
No?
Boarding....
No
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Jun-2004 16:38:55 (#8913)
>It intuitively makes sense to me that for every 15 cards played, the count should change about 1 pt towards player favor...
No. This is not the case. In fact, the True count tends to stay the same (the "True Count Theorem").
>if it changes more. We have the advantage?
You have the advantage when the TC says you do, and at no other time (unless you are using some other advantage technique, like shuffle tracking). If you had la imited experience where you couldn't keep track of the count but you won anyway, be happy and go study/practice some more.
>No?
You are correct. "No"
--Mayor
This is statistics no?
Posted by Boarding on 23-Jun-2004 19:46:13 (#8919)
Mayor,
Thanks for the quick response, and with your knowledge of mathmetics I am almost wondering why I am writing this, but hell... here goes...
When calculating advantage - what sample size is used? If in fact, these advantages are calculated using a number approaching infinity, then we are accepting the mathmatical deviations when applying these figures to say some percentage of a 6 deck shoe. Those unused cards over time, or large enough sample, would behave as the other side of the shoe - i.e a normal progression towards a count of +4 per 52 cards.
If we are tracking counts to bet on the remaining cards in say a 300 deck shoe, we are accepting the known limitations of this.
Why does it not apply equally by simply takeing this sampling method down to two hands of play. I realize that this severly limits the probability of success do to the much great number of cards remaining in the deck. However, we are calulating advantage of 'decks of cards' when we count. Can not the same method be used to calculate 'hands of cards'. With perfect play, it would intuitively appear so. The limitation is here assuming that all remaining cards would average to +4/52 cards as they remain normally distributed in the deck.
However, it does not appear to be mathmatically irrelevant...
I am guessing that it is, but ... hell.. had to type this anyways...
Am I completely in left field?
and by the way, I am still practicing and reading and getting much much better!
Thanks for the site.
Boarding...
response
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Jun-2004 11:54:10 (#8932)
>When calculating advantage - what sample size is used?
There are three methods to determine advantage. One is combinatorically, this does not require a sample size. The second is by simulation, in this case the sample size depends on the "standard error" you are working with. The third way is practically, in a casino environment. In this case, it is based on the cumulative experience of the advantage community.
>If in fact, these advantages are calculated using a number approaching infinity,
The numbers 2 and 10000000 are equally close to infinity.
>- i.e a normal progression towards a count of +4 per 52 cards.
I don't know what count you are using, but the normal Hi-Lo count is balanced, so it tends towards a RC and TC of 0 per 52 cards.
>If we are tracking counts to bet on the remaining cards in say a 300 deck shoe, we are accepting the known limitations of this.
I don't know what you mean by "known limitations"
>Why does it not apply equally by simply takeing this sampling method down to two hands of play.
The theory only applies to the current hand being played, that is the only time you can apply the theory, to the current hand.
>The limitation is here assuming that all remaining cards would average to +4/52 cards as they remain normally distributed in the deck.
Again, I don't know what count you are using, but the game does NOT tend towards a player's advantage over the house. If it did, you can be sure that the rules would be changed.
>Am I completely in left field?
Sorry, but yes, I think you are.
>and by the way, I am still practicing and reading and getting much much better!
That's the thing to do. Best wishes for your success, but be patient.
--Mayor
I think
Posted by Sohrab on 24-Jun-2004 12:17:31 (#8933)
he is using the unbalanced KO count, which rises as the dealer deals average cards.
But you start this count negative and you have advantage if count rises faster than average would be.
You are correct - KO
Posted by Boardingbetter on 24-Jun-2004 19:11:05 (#8946)
You are correct all the way around...
If the count rises faster than 1 pt / 13 cards - do we no have an advantage?
Boarding?
Tough question for Mayor
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Jun-2004 21:51:03 (#8951)
(Well at least it's tough for me)
"Again, I don't know what count you are using, but the game does NOT tend towards a player's advantage over the house. If it did, you can be sure that the rules would be changed."
It's not intuitive though. Let's say you were playing a 6 deck game with liberal Strip rules, and the dealer was dealing down below one deck. And let's say when he gets down to the 1 deck point, the TC is 0.
Now a person who has a basic understanding of BJ math would say "Ah yes. We are now playing a single deck game, and if you were to play a single deck game with all the liberal Strip rules, the player has an advantage." And if that last deck had the normal distribution of a standard 52 card deck, that would be correct.
On the other hand, my common sense tells me this- if at the beginning of the shoe, the dealer were to grab any 52 cards at random out of the shoe, throw the rest away, and say "OK we're going to play single deck.", the advantage of the next hand would be the same as it would be for 6 deck shoe. This is because you don't get the strong removal effect you do in single deck because of the likelihood of there being more than 4 of certain cards in that pack. In reality we don't know what the advantage is because we don't know what the cards are and that pack could very well be played with an advantage for the player. But being the TC of those cards will be centered on 0, we know the average advantage will be the same as TC=0 in 6D and that is an advantage for the house.
However if you have dealt down to the last deck and the TC is 0, you probably have something pretty close to a standard 52 card deck, at least closer than a random handful of 52 cards would be, with a TC ranging from plus to minus anything. So I believe that the advantage will be tending towards the player as cards are dealt, only in this particular situation, because as decks decrease, the slope of advantage as a function of TC increases, but so does the Y-intercept. I'd love to be proven wrong!
Referring tough question to a book...
Posted by Seeker on 25-Jun-2004 07:43:29 (#8961)
Specifically, Blackjack Attack by Don Schlesinger. He discusses the "floating advantage" -- the phenomenon that the player is better off at a true count of 0 with one deck left in a shoe than at the start of the shoe, even thought the true count is the same in both cases.
The subject is interesting, but of little practical importance. You'll seldom find a shoe game that's dealt to the very deep levels that would make the floating advantage a significant consideration in bet sizing.
Not so tough...
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Jun-2004 10:49:57 (#8971)
>It's not intuitive though. Let's say you were playing a 6 deck game with liberal Strip rules, and the dealer was dealing down below one deck. And let's say when he gets down to the 1 deck point, the TC is 0.
Isn't this known as the floating advantage? Didn't Don Schlesinger prove that as you deal deeper into the deck, your advantage occured at a lower TC? And in a 6 deck shoe, if you have a TC=0 between 5.25 and 5.50 decks dealt, you have the edge!
I knew this subtlety when I replied to the original writer, but it did not seem reasonable to cover the Floating Advantage in reply to his original questions, as he appears to be having a tough time understanding basic KO.
>So I believe that the advantage will be tending towards the player as cards are dealt, only in this particular situation, because as decks decrease, the slope of advantage as a function of TC increases, but so does the Y-intercept. I'd love to be proven wrong!
I don't think you can be proven wrong because you are right. See Chapter 6 of Blackjack Attack (2nd Edition).
--Mayor
Thanks!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-Jun-2004 11:20:58 (#8973)
That explains it... I've never read a blackjack book. It's more fun to figure these things out on my own, and no chance of me reading something and not understanding it that way.
Where in LV to buy BJ tables/chips?
Posted by ladykiller on 24-Jun-2004 15:55:50 (#8940)
Going to LV this weekend. Want to buy a BJ felt or table if cheap enough as well as a discard tray and some chips. Anyone know where the best place to go in LV for this?
Gamblers General Store
Posted by Hal Jordan on 24-Jun-2004 23:15:57 (#8953)
There is a great store near downtown. To get directions check gamblersgeneralstore.com. They have nearly everything you would want. When my friend and I built my table this store was a must for supplies. When we built my table, we built it as we went, with no real plans to follow. Since that time though I found a seller on e-bay who sells blackjack blueprints. The plans look cool. Hope this sources will help.
HJ
GGS prices a relatively high...
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Jun-2004 17:22:39 (#8984)
... eBay is the way! zg
there was a 21 table for sale a couple of days ago...
Posted by gehrig on 25-Jun-2004 01:27:29 (#8958)
in the lvrj classified. the price was $650 which i think is too high. they break down in a couple of minutes and might even be "fedex"-able [ground service]. a local gaming school was selling surplus 21 table chairs [from the barbary coast], a few months ago, for $20 each. used "felts" [layouts] are around, often at the large outdoor flea market at pecos and lv blvd north. last ones i bought cost 4 for $20. they make interesting table cloths. new layouts *may* not be legally sold, i'm told, though they turn up also. table accessories such as drop boxes, paddles, discard trays, checque racks, lockable covers, and vinyl table covers should be at the aforementioned, gambler's general store. otoh, if/when the next joint's closing has a liquidation of fixtures, no doubt many of these items can be bought most reasonably. when the el rancho was being "parted out", "cage" stuff like drop boxes were a dollar or two each.
local gaming shows are also a source for casino used stuff. i haven't found a single reliable source for a calendar of those events. the trop and the plaza have had shows recently.
Liquidation sales
Posted by Sonny on 25-Jun-2004 17:16:45 (#8981)
> otoh, if/when the next joint's closing has a liquidation of
> fixtures, no doubt many of these items can be bought most reasonably.
Barley's Casino & Brewery in Henderson closed down all of their BJ tables last week. Maybe a resourceful person could track some of them down...
-Sonny-
Online *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 25-Jun-2004 08:46:40 (#8962)
These guys had some really good deals on hardware a couple years back. maybe they still do.
-Felix
I got my *** whipped
Posted by John on 24-Jun-2004 23:20:32 (#8954)
I finally lost after two months of winning trips. This was my first losing trip as a green chip player. I didn't lose the whole trip bankroll, but I lost 112 units. I actually had lost 140 units and hit one on the way home and made 28 units.
It was awful. Absolutely awful. Whenever I had a big bet out, the dealer had an Ace. It was Dealer hits soft 17 so the dealer flips over a 6 of course then hits again and gets a 4. This is just characteristic of how it went. With a big bet out, I either pushed or lost. Most of my insurance bets lost. It was horrible. It was like I was living in an alternate reality where the negative counts are the counts where you win the big money.
I was playing a lot of 6 deck H17, DAS, DOA, No surrender. I want to know what you guys think of the H17 games?
I am starting to wonder whether 1 -12 spread is really enough these days. I think you need a 1 - 16 spread for those H17 games.
Whenever I lose a lot, I like to stop and think about what I am doing.
I did almost win a blackjack tournament. I made it to the final table. One woman told me that I was "unconscious". Whatever that means.
Also, if you had a choice between 2 deck, 55-60 % pen, H17, DAS, DOA, no surrender, resplit 3 times or a 6 deck H17, DAS, DOA, split 4 times, no surrender with 70 % pen. Which would you choose ?
I had a hard time deciding and I think it is why I lost so much. I could spread 1 - 30 on the double deck and get away with it and on the 6 deck, too. I think I am finished for good on 2 deck unless I see 75 % pen. I lost 68 units on 2 deck.
Automatic, how is the full kelly going ?
Hang on it could be worse!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Jun-2004 23:58:24 (#8957)
Hey man I've been there. 112 units is not an awful lot to lose, sorry to tell you. It makes you wonder how the cards are dealt, you swear they must be cheating, but that's just perception. Also you like me started out with a long string of wins. That's a good sign, means you've taken to counting like a duck to water, but swings like these and much worse happen to better than us. Read Snyder's bjfonline.com site. He's one of the best ever, and he's had swings that would bankrupt you or I. I have a "virtual" Kelly green chip bankroll (mortgaged my house like an ass) now but haven't had to touch it, also had a couple of nice big winning sessions recently at the Connecticut candystores.
About those games: I don't think I would ever play a H17 shoe game. The only ones I would play are a couple in Reno that allow doubling on any number of cards and that rule more than makes up for the H17. Just about any other venue has a S17 game available so why not play that? Of the two games you described, the DD is the far better game. The other problem with H17 is you have to learn a lot of different index numbers that will have no value in the more desirable S17 games.
Like you, I also notice marginal luck in the DD games and I have a theory why. You and I are used to winning, winning big in shoe games and in shoe your swings are a lot bigger, and your upswings far far above EV and thus memorable. So when we play DD where the counts move around a lot and are not stable, we are actually winning EV but because it's not what we think of as a "great night" (from our shoe experiences) we remember it as a long nasty and minimally profitable drag. Your 1:12 spread should be just fine in shoe. 1:20 is better but try to expand your spread on the low end, not the high, as that is better for your bankroll. It will help a lot if you can Wong out of bad counts, or learn to track a shuffle. It's easier than it seems if the shuffle is trackable.
The one on the way home
Posted by John on 25-Jun-2004 04:17:49 (#8959)
Even though I lost on most of my 4 day trip. I learned something.
I am trading in my $100 Aldo's for my $20 reeboks. I have to tighten my game up.
It was great on the way home, though. I was there maybe 15 minutes ! It was one of those sit down- oh count bad- hey what's on the next table-- sit down -- wow great - make money- leave.
Another thing. I swear that sometimes the pit boss is going up to the dealers and whispering "counter". I swear it has happened a few times. Or maybe I'm losing it.
I got some room comps. Automatic, I know you've gotten some room comps. Do you count cards at the places you are staying, or do you feel bad about it and go elsewhere ?
You know you've played too much blackjack when during your visit to Long John Silver's you start moving the little ketchup cups like they are chips.
Also, when you are paying for it with change, you move the quarters like they are chips, too. It's wierd.
Also, to make it to the final table in that tournament, I doubled down on a 13 v 6 . I had a max bet out of 500. I got an 8 for a 21. The gusts went out of everyone sails after that. On the last round of hands, I was actually second to last place but that hand moved me in to the winner for the table. I ended up with 2000+ for the table and 2nd had 1100+ . It was a great double down. I was so shocked that I didn't even realize what happened.
Hi John
Posted by SammyBoy on 25-Jun-2004 09:19:42 (#8964)
Sorry for the run of bad cards. In your post you said - <i><b>Do you count cards at the places you are staying, or do you feel bad about it and go elsewhere ?<b><i>
If I'm playing blackjack I am counting cards, ESPECIALLY at the places that comp my room. You cannot let yourself feel bad about it, trust me, they don't feel bad when you lose. The only time I've ever stopped counting was when several floor people and bosses were watching my table. But I did not play there very long. Best of luck to you and I promise it will get better (Can't say when though).
Unconscious
Posted by revereman on 25-Jun-2004 09:20:09 (#8965)
I think your last paragraph (doubling 13 vs. 6 and getting an 8) explains why the other player said you were "unconscious."
You have just experienced the roller coaster ride that is BJ. About a month ago we tried to develop an alternative to roller coast ride analogy but we really couldn't. The reason? Roller coaster is a perfect way to describe advantage play in BJ. Some Bible thumpers (ok, we haven't had enough controversy around here lately) say that whatever God gives you that doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Try having 5 (or 10) more sessions like your last trip and see how you feel about playing BJ and how strong you feel.
Unconscious
Posted by SammyBoy on 25-Jun-2004 09:23:07 (#8967)
It means you were "In The Zone", you can do no wrong, everything is going your way.
Staying where I play
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-Jun-2004 11:18:26 (#8972)
Sure, at my CT candystores they don't give discretionary comps, but I have so many points on the player's cards I can stay over whenever I want. Yes, I've heard them say "counter" too, but they don't do anything about it, rumor has it they don't care about anything under a $100 BU. Heard them say it once where I had spread to 4 hands (which was against the rules) and the PC got really mad at the dealer. Those places are so big, there could be me and 100 guys like me in there every night and they wouldn't even notice the money was missing. If they say "counter" and you're still playing, either a call from surveillance is imminent and you're on your way out, or you are within their limits of tolerance and you're not going to be thrown out. Just my experience.
I'll stay there, but when I'm on the road I usually don't stay where I play, because I don't want to be thrown out of my room if I am ejected from the premises. Also I don't get a player's card on short trips so there's no comps.
Confused by question
Posted by LVBear584 on 25-Jun-2004 16:55:23 (#8980)
Do you count cards at the places you are staying, or do you feel bad about it and go elsewhere ?
Why would anyone feel bad about it ????
Lifetime ***whips
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Jun-2004 11:54:22 (#8974)
I think a good measure of how much you have played is how many true ***whippings you have had, and survived to play another day.
This is your first. Treasure it!
My last time out, I was playing a R07/R08 single deck game, spreading $10 to 2x$100 (yes, a fantastic game). I was down $3k after the first 2 hours. If I believed in omens, I certainly had one: the second deck played, the dealer dealt herself 4 straight blackjacks ... which is VERY hard to do in single deck.
It's not even an ***whip any more, it's just the game...
--Mayor
Why tell the dealer ?
Posted by John on 25-Jun-2004 16:00:24 (#8978)
Can someone please explain to me why it is important that the dealer know that I am a card counter ?
Is the pit boss trying to flaunt his keen intellect ?
Trying to sabotage my relationship with the dealer in some way?
Good question
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-Jun-2004 22:25:10 (#8995)
It could be either of those reasons. More likely it has to do with cut card placement, they may have a procedure in place to reduce pen when they believe there's a counter at the table. This is the kind of thing that will protect the game and not offend or frighten the ploppies like a barring might.
In my opinion, casino is a hospitality business, and the dealer should be doing nothing but dealing and having pleasant interaction with the customers. Dealing with counters is not his job.
Cut card
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 28-Jun-2004 09:45:17 (#9019)
So true. The last time I was in CT, at a hot shoe, the Pit Boss tapped the dealer on shoulder, and the dealer said "What did I do". The PB then said "It's not what you did, it's what you are going to do". Then after they exchanged whispers for about 5 seconds, dealer came back and was cutting off 2 decks instead of 1 on an 8 deck shoe. I guess it's better than heat...
an inteligent casino response
Posted by Victoria on 28-Jun-2004 10:04:06 (#9020)
to the question of, "what should we do about card counters?"
I have been half or nearly half shoed a few times. The ploppies have no idea that anything is going on, the pit remains as they were (no outward hostility), the house sacrifices the number of hands per hour they can deal and my advantage graciously evaporates with this obvious hint.
I do not see the pit saying anything to the current dealer. It happens when a new dealer comes to the table, more than likely briefed before getting there.
There is no need for them to make a scene and perhaps scare some of their regular loosers.
The counter can continue to play all she wants I think, unless the spread would increase by some huge margin.
If they use an automatic shuffle machine, the amount of hands lost by the casino is not significant.
If I were in casino management this would be my primary action against an advantage player. The other methods used might be employed against teams and the use of a huge spread to offset reduced penetration. So you are welcome to play any game at our casino except blackjack will have a 50% or less penetration in the shoe game.
Victoria
You're Using Way Too Much Common Sense! :-) *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 28-Jun-2004 11:30:15 (#9024)
And that is why I will never be in Casino Management *NM*
Posted by Victoria on 29-Jun-2004 14:01:44 (#9035)
Foxwoods?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 28-Jun-2004 15:45:49 (#9026)
That sounds like something they'd do there. Once in a while you can find a dealer cutting those 8 deck shoes down to a deck. Usually they are down around 1.5 decks, and if they are cutting a full 2 I find another table. Over at Mohegan they will cut anywhere from 0.75 to 2 decks out of a 6 deck shoe. A slight advantage, but the shuffle is not as trackable as the Foxwoods one. It's a wash as to which store has the better game.
What kind of stakes/spread were you playing in CT, to get any kind of attention at all from the pit?
Foxwoods
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 29-Jun-2004 08:19:25 (#9029)
I don't think it was directed towards me, I was spreading 1-10 ($10) But another guy at the table was was only betting $10 on neg counts, then betting over $500 when the TC was high. He left after that shoe, but the pen stayed the same, so I left too. I don't think they would even look at me, next to a guy throwing around black like that...
-Jax
Phantom - You've Got Mail *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 25-Jun-2004 09:09:56 (#8963)
Black Belt in BJ
Posted by Gordon Gekko on 25-Jun-2004 14:23:02 (#8976)
Anyone know of a source for this out of print classic? Mine blew-up.
gg
Back in print soon...
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Jun-2004 17:21:48 (#8983)
... from Cardoza Publishing, or locate a used copy via Amazon. Good to see you! zg (greed is good)
Barnes & Nobles
Posted by Royam on 25-Jun-2004 18:45:20 (#8987)
Barnes & Nobles:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/index.asp?userid=bsq1YVFtFP
Enter your zip code in the shop locator and give them a ring. Order your book under a fake name and tell them you'll pick them up 10 days later. It works great for most books, including Blackbelt.
Books that are out of print (Million Dollar BJ, Beyond Counting, etc.) can only be purchased "used" and this needs be done online. It sucks because you would have to give your real name/payment information.
Royam
Barnes & Nobles
Posted by Gordon Gekko on 25-Jun-2004 20:48:07 (#8993)
Will I be able to order Beyond Counting at face value too? ;) ;)
gg
Currently Out of Print *LINK*
Posted by MrPill on 26-Jun-2004 15:56:08 (#8998)
The BBinBJ they have pictured is actually Blackjack Wisdom. I'm not sure you would actually find any BBinBJ since it is currently out of print.
A new edition is to be released this fall.
Pill
Some of the content is available online
Posted by Seeker on 28-Jun-2004 09:42:14 (#9018)
While you wait for the third edition to published later this year, you can find much (though not all) of the content of the second edition at http://www.bjfonline.com/play.cfm and http://www.bjfonline.com/beat.cfm.
Maybe John Patrick should take lessons...
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Jun-2004 14:39:20 (#8977)
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/06/24/poker.pooches.ap/index.html
--Mayor
Take lessons?...
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Jun-2004 17:19:53 (#8982)
... thats his class! zg
Zen Newbie Q&A
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Jun-2004 19:04:10 (#8990)
Posted By: zengrifter
Date: 6/25/04 5:02:00 p.m.
Schmedley writes:
**ZG responds -
I was wondering if I could get your Zen indices, as you kindly offered. I am currently practising based on the explanations in Blackbelt, but have a few doubts in 2 regards:
1) The indices in Blackbelt are not the same as those shown in the software I purchased (Ne Plus Ultra). Annoying. If you could confirm that those in Blackbelt are correct, that would be great.
**I'm assuming that you purchased the '98 edition of Blackbelt - the indices are for a 1/4D TC - you may use them as is -or- you may multiply them x2 for 1/2D TC or x4 for 1D TC
**My 'new' Zen indices are the Snyder TE indices x4 w/ minor RA enhancements.
**Does the latest NeUltra allow you to substitute your own indices? If not, the NeUltra indices are fine also.
I'm thinking of purchasing another software (I heard CVBJ is the best and it is not that expensive, $90), do you have any suggestion?
**Stick w/ NeUltra
2) I aslo want to make sure I practise right. Let's say my base bet is $10. When the count is negative, I drop it to $5.
**In a 6-8D game start at $5... in fact its best if you bet 0 (wonging).
Let's say my running count is 30, with 5 decks remaining. I divide 30 by 5*4=20, which gives me a "true edge" (as Snyder calls it) of 1.5. At this stage I raise my bet to $15. I do not raise it to $20 untill my true edge reaches 2, etc...
**TE is calc'd after starting housEdge is deducted
What I mean is that with this true edge conversion, I don't bother calculating the decimals,
**IF decimals are easy for you, calc the TE to the nearest 0.5
Is this technically correct? I know I won't do this in casinos or I will be
labelled "counter" in no time, but I'm just trying to have this game
(count/convert/adjust bet and strategy) as a second nature. Then I'll work on cover.
**You do not need cover with small stakes.
I'm asking because I was surprised to see how rarely I get big counts.
**Thats why wonging is best.
I also read in K-O BJ that some european Casino subscribe to Griffin... it sucks, I hoped it would be a little more lay-back there.
**Small stakes wonging requires NO COVER anywhere (when playing 6-8D games)
I was also shocked to read that card-counting would be illegal in Monte-Carlo... do you have information in this regard?
**Not illegal... small players will have no problems there.
Sorry to ask so many questions by email, but I read the two "espionage" posts on Snyder's website and don't feel like posting too much about myself anymore.
Schmedely
**Nothing posted here will give you away. zg
What are TC and TE exactly? Only difference is that TE = TC - HouseEdge? *NM*
Posted by Royam on 26-Jun-2004 13:55:20 (#8997)
True edge is not advantage
Posted by Seeker on 28-Jun-2004 09:31:29 (#9017)
zengrifter writes in part:
"TE is calc'd after starting housEdge is deducted."
Snyder uses "true edge" to mean the extent to which the advantage has shifted in a player-favorable direction as a result of card depletion. He writes, "Note that with the Hi-Lo Lite, you must subtract the house advantage off the top from the true edge to arrive at your advantage." (from http://www.bjfonline.com/chpt9.cfm) The reason to do it this way is that play variations are keyed to specific TE index numbers. For this purpose, the starting house edge doesn't matter. Whether to stand on 15 vs. 9 is unaffected by whether you can double after splits.
Yes. I don't like...
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Jun-2004 11:04:13 (#9023)
For this purpose, the starting house edge doesn't matter. Whether to stand on 15 vs. 9 is unaffected by whether you can double after splits.
---------------
Betting scale
Posted by Royam on 28-Jun-2004 15:23:04 (#9025)
So TE is like TC in the end, no? Except that TC is usually caclulated "per deck" and the TE in the Zen system is explained by Arnold Snyder as a count "per quarter deck". Not of much importance anyway, I compared with the indices I have for the hi-low and I'm pretty sure I'm doing it correct (whereas I was first wondering if I would not be using indices 2 or 4 times too "small", if you see what I mean).
Anyway, what would be a good betting spread then, based on the TE?
What about this:
TE below 1: 1 unit,
TE reaches 1: 2 units,
TE reaches 1.5: 3 units,
TE reaches 2: 4 units,
TE reaches 2.5: 5 units,
TE reaches 3: 6 units,
TE reaches 3.5: 7 units,
TE reaches 4: 8 units,
TE reaches 4.5: 10 units,
TE reaches 5: 12 units,
TE reaches 5.5: 14 units,
TE reaches 6: 16 units.
TE reaches more: mental orgasm.
Its partially rules and...
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Jun-2004 11:43:51 (#9034)
... BR dependent, but here's my suggestion (rough) -
600 BR
6-8D (not 1-2D)
(TE = 1/4D TC)
WONG:
TE reaches .2-.5: 1 unit,
TE reaches .5: 2 units,
TE reaches 1: 4 units,
TE reaches 1.5: 4-4 units,
TE reaches 2: 5-5 units,
TE reaches 3: 6-6 units,
PLAY ALL:
TE below .2: 1/4 unit
TE between .2-.5: 1/2 unit,
TE reaches .5: 2 units,
TE reaches 1: 4 units,
TE reaches 1.5:4-4 units,
TE reaches 2: 5-5 units,
TE reaches 3: 6-6 units,
Thx, but need 1 precision
Posted by Royam on 29-Jun-2004 14:03:59 (#9036)
To make sure I understand it right, could you please confirm the meaning of the abbreviations:
600 BR: means bankroll of 600 units?
6-8D (not 1-2D) : means 6 to 8 decds (not 1-2 decks)?
(TE = 1/4D TC): means true edge equals quarter deck true count? (I must be wrong on that one)
Thanks,
Royam
ZEN TE is a 1/4D TC
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Jun-2004 15:59:23 (#9037)
TE = 1/4D TC): means true edge equals quarter deck true count? (I must be wrong on that one)
-----------------
The '98 version Zen is based on a 1/4D TC-adjustment - Halves was based on a 1D TC, right? Don't call it TE anymore, call it by what it is - in the case of '98 Zen its a 1/4D TC. zg
Lol, ok
Posted by Royam on 29-Jun-2004 18:06:24 (#9038)
I thought you were using the "=" as in a mathematical equation, my bad.
Now it's clear and I agree with you, the "TE" expression is misleading.
Thanks
Royam
4 deck game optimal system/ betting spread?
Posted by bryan on 27-Jun-2004 13:23:35 (#9003)
I was reading on Bj21.com in the blackjack school section that 4 deck games require at betting spread of 1 to 12, while 6 deck games require only 1-8.
Why is this? It would seem that the 4 deck game should require the smaller spread.
The rules of the game that I play are as follows: Early surrender (except vs. ace), DA2, DAS, H17, 4 decks.
The allowed betting range is $5-$100
But I also play at a table where it is $5-$50
Currently I use wong halves and I bet as follows TC bet
- or 0 $5
+1 $10
2 $20
3 $30
4 $40
5 $50
6 $60
Is this a favorable game? Am I using an appropriate betting strategy?
THanx
What's The Penetration? *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 27-Jun-2004 16:19:17 (#9008)
Not a bad game...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 27-Jun-2004 18:29:40 (#9010)
Except for the H17. This sounds like a local game somewhere between the Rockies and the Missississpi, and 4 deck is a good deal because you get the cards dealt face up and you don't have the long waits and other disadvantages of 6D or 8D.
A 1-12 spread is good on any game, it is not true that you need a larger spread with a lower number of decks. The only reason you'd want to lower your spread is to keep yourself from being booted out of the casino. You can use the same strategy and spread with any shoe game, 4D to 8D, only changes you'll have to make are for H17/S17. and DAS/no DAS. DD requires some subtle changes, and SD is a very different kind of game. Halves is a very strong system for shoe games, you might want to consider waiting for TC=+2 before raising your bet at all, but other than that it sounds like you're doing everything right. (Not that I'm an expert or anything.)
Here is a spread for Hi-Lo
Posted by John on 27-Jun-2004 21:16:18 (#9011)
Here is an optimal 1-12 spread spit out from CVCX. This spread is designed to optimize bankroll growth. You can see how it is and maybe translate it to Halves if you don't have software to do so.
Basically, CVCX says to get the money out as quickly as possible at +2 TC. What true count that is for Halves I don't know.
TC
0....1 unit
1....2 units
2....6 units
3....9 units
4....12 units
To me, this is different than your spread, but it seems to me your spread would work but may not make as much as one that is generated from a software program.
1 - 12 spread Halves from CVCX
Posted by John on 27-Jun-2004 21:30:42 (#9012)
Hey. I put your game into CVCX. The only difference was that I used late surrender instead of early since it wasn't available.
The optimal spread it kicked out for a 4 deck H17 game like yours with 70 % pen was this:
TC
0....1 unit
1....2 units
2....4 units
3....8 units
4....10 units
5....12 units
Early Surrender
Posted by DeadMoney on 27-Jun-2004 23:23:22 (#9013)
This should be correct. He meant late surrender. Early surrender is against an Ace prior to checking the hole card. Early surrender doesn't exist anywhere and that is why it is not on your software. Late surrender is your first 2 cards against anything other than a Natural and can be found on some shoes games.
CVData supports ESR
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 28-Jun-2004 00:27:44 (#9014)
Although it doesn't exist in any organized game in North America anymore, according to CBJN. I hear it is found in some overseas casinos and will occasionally turn up in a private game.
Only got to play it once, I was at a table where the BJ-checking device wasn't working, so the dealer was not checking and only collecting original bets if he had a BJ. But he was honoring surrenders on the spot. He did this for about an hour before a PC came over and corrected him. Pretty cool, no?
Clearly should have played Double Deck
Posted by John on 28-Jun-2004 03:56:06 (#9015)
I did some analysis on CVCX regarding my last trip. There is no doubt that I should have played the double deck even if the pen was 50 %. I got c-score of 42 on the method that I was playing on double deck. I was spreading 1 - 30 and getting away with it. I happen to get unlucky and stopped after a few shoes. That was so much better than the c-score of 17 I was getting on 6 deck. I really need a laptop to bring with me on these trips.
Usually it's better
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 28-Jun-2004 10:40:52 (#9022)
Yeah a DD game is almost always better than a 6D game, unless the rules and pen are much better on the shoe. There are always exceptions.
A laptop is a handly thing to have with you but be careful. Last winter they broke into my motel room in Reno and stole mine. I've noticed in some of the newer casino hotel rooms they provide safes that will accomodate a laptop.
Hello Zen G.
Posted by JB on 28-Jun-2004 10:10:59 (#9021)
I dropped in from the East mid week and we spoke at length about, specifically, Uston, Celini, and longevity, and that table with the "east coast" logo. R u still there? Would like to visit again in mid July. Thoroughly enjoyed our conversations and your extensive knowledge of the game.
JB
Yes, hi...
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Jun-2004 11:15:38 (#9031)
... not at GGS anymore. Here is the story I told you about -
http://www.cardcounter.com/nonBJ.pl?read=774 zg
Where now?
Posted by JB on 07-Jul-2004 11:13:02 (#9139)
Thanks, did read back in April as soon as I got back. Interesting, to say the least.
You around anywhere else these days?
Basic Strategy - A, 2, 5 vs 3
Posted by DSCH on 29-Jun-2004 09:08:19 (#9030)
Let's say I have an Ace and a 2 vs the dealer's 3. I know that the correct basic strategy play is to Hit. So I Hit and get a 5. What is the next move?
I know that with a soft 18, I'm supposed to Double vs a 3, but obviously I cannot do that on my 3rd card...
Play it normal
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 29-Jun-2004 11:43:12 (#9033)
Play it just like the chart says. That's a stand. There are games where you can double on 3 cards and count your blessings if you're in one.
Mayor spotted in Nevada?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 30-Jun-2004 03:48:48 (#9039)
Or it could have been his twin brother. I won't say where until he says it wasn't him, or that he's out of the venue.
Could be...
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Jun-2004 10:44:10 (#9041)
Haven't been in Nevada in a few weeks...
I guess not
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 30-Jun-2004 16:45:03 (#9042)
Must have been your twin brother I saw playing at the best green chip SD in town. I was the wiseguy at the other table being a heat magnet.
You get around
Posted by John on 30-Jun-2004 18:49:41 (#9043)
Wow, Automatic, I thought you were strictly east coast. You are becoming international, and that is very good.
I had a great week. 168 green units in 2 1/2 days. Not bad but big brother is watching.
Twins
Posted by revereman on 01-Jul-2004 09:12:38 (#9046)
I was checking out of Foxwoods once and my family was waiting outside one of the casinos for me. When I came up to them, they took a double take because they saw me playing in the casino. I took a double take too since I saw me playing in the casino. I guess the moral of the story is that there are many good looking BJ players around. I didn't go in to look closer. Would have been too weird but now I wish I had.
twins
Posted by suicyco maniac on 01-Jul-2004 20:56:57 (#9055)
I feel sorry for the poor ploppy who gets barred for being Eliot. I can hear it now "what do you mean I can't play BJ?"...."Don't play stupid with me Mr. Jacobson you know why!!!"....."Mr. Who???" God that would be great...SM
That's a great image!!! *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Jul-2004 01:02:06 (#9060)
Mine
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 02-Jul-2004 08:54:22 (#9064)
gives traffic reports on CP24 in the AM in Toronto. ;>
Radio
Posted by revereman on 02-Jul-2004 09:10:18 (#9066)
I heard you had a face for radio, Rob. :)
Hahahahaha!!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 02-Jul-2004 09:20:47 (#9067)
Nice one. As I get older I have been compared to Clint Eastwood and Kirk Douglas in their 40's. Not bad company I must say. Who have you been compared to by your close friends??
twins
Posted by revereman on 02-Jul-2004 13:44:25 (#9078)
not on a public forum. some places might actually figure out who I am.
Stricttly DD
Posted by RyguyRocky on 01-Jul-2004 01:24:33 (#9044)
Hey guys.
I play strictly DD $5 min, DOA, DAS. Penetration is very good where I play. 60-75%. Last time I played there the dealer RAN OUT OF CARDS! There was 4 of us at the table and he cuts so deep he runs out of cards. He's like SH#! PIT! The PB comes over and all apologetic.. Like it's a bad thing! I'm sitting there with a huge grin on my face! After the last card was dealt I had the count at 1. It's a good feeling to know that he burned a ten off the top while the ploppies are all looking at each other wondering what's going on!
But I digress....
I have a very conservative spread. I fear that I'm not taking full advantage of good counts.
Here is what I am doing at the table. I would like to hear some comments/suggestions. I am a red player. :)
TC
0 - 1 unit
1 - 1 unit
2 - 2 units
3 - 3 units
4 - 4 units
5 - 5 units
6 - 6 units
7+ - 8 units
Are You Using Hi/Lo?
Posted by SammyBoy on 01-Jul-2004 09:51:44 (#9047)
If so I would have my max bet out at +5.
Bet spread
Posted by DSCH on 01-Jul-2004 11:06:01 (#9052)
So it seems that a betting spread of the following might be good:
TC <=1 Min bet
TC = 2, 3, or 4 1/2 Max bet
TC >=5 Max bet
What do you think?
Non-Optimal
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 01-Jul-2004 12:53:06 (#9053)
I think you would be overbetting on your +2 counts, and really underbetting your +4 counts.
Depatures from the optimal bet spread I posted below can only perform less effectively. Exceptions being using a larger spread, instead of the 1:8 shown, or wonging on negative counts, etc.
The advantage of your bet spread is there are only 3 jumps, (min., half/max, and max.) so this might provide some cover, instead of mechanically racheting the shown optimal spread up and down constantly.
However, I think I would work on ACT or other methods to get the optimal spread down, before hurting my EV by using less optimal betting patterns. (A pattern is a pattern, if watched long enough or close enough, eventually it will be detected.)
Yes. Hi-Lo ** NM ** *NM*
Posted by ryguyrocky on 02-Jul-2004 14:00:38 (#9079)
Conservative = losing money
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Jul-2004 10:07:08 (#9049)
You are losing a lot of money by your spread. If your objective by being conservative is to reduce swings, then I suggest not playing (or getting a day job). If your objective by being conservative is to optimize the ratio EV/SD (which means winning as much as possible per unit variance), then you should ramp up MUCH more quickly, with your max bet at +5 consisting of 8 units.
--Mayor
I use Hi-Lo---max bet at TC= +4 == Mo Money *NM*
Posted by John on 01-Jul-2004 10:12:29 (#9050)
Double Deck Spread
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 01-Jul-2004 10:50:58 (#9051)
+0 -- 1 unit
+1 -- 2 unit
+2 -- 3 unit
+3 -- 5 unit
+4 -- 7 unit
+5 -- 8 unit
Wow
Posted by RyguyRocky on 02-Jul-2004 14:22:26 (#9081)
thanks for all the great responses!
I see where I am going wrong... I was under the impression that a good spread for me would be 1 unit per TC. (BTW Mayor I do have a day job) :)
I am not getting the $$ out fast enough.
I have adjusted my spread accordingly and will begin using either
AdM's
+0 -- 1 unit
+1 -- 2 unit
+2 -- 3 unit
+3 -- 5 unit
+4 -- 7 unit
+5 -- 8 unit
or kRis's
+0 -- 1 unit
+1 -- 2 unit
+2 -- 4 unit
+3 -- 6 unit
+4 -- 8 unit
Reason for my spread.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 02-Jul-2004 15:18:40 (#9083)
+0 -- 1 unit
+1 -- 2 unit
+2 -- 3 unit
+3 -- 5 unit
+4 -- 7 unit
+5 -- 8 unit
If you study the actual true edge at certain true counts in typical double deck games, there is very little difference between a +1 and +2 count (yes, there is increased edge, but in percentage terms, not that great).
But there is a big jump in advantage between a +2 and a +3 count, hence the bigger increase in bet:
(+1 -- 2 unit to +2 -- 3 unit = 50% increase,
+2 -- 3 unit to +3 -- 5 unit = 66% increase)
This is probably due to some double down indexes kicking in.
+4 count and +5 count, the advantage increases some, but not much in percentage terms. Probably because whatever deviations you are doing to basic strategy at +4, you are pretty much also doing at +5.
And that is why it also doesn't make much difference what you do at even higher counts. First, higher than +6 counts are rare, and there really isn't much more advantage at +8 than +9, for example. Yes, there is some increase, but not enough to significently increase the percentage of your bankroll you are putting on the table.
My DD Spread
Posted by kRis on 02-Jul-2004 00:49:12 (#9059)
I use 2 units per TC up to TC=4. Sometimes I go higher but you have to consider bankroll. I base this spread on highly effective computer simulations and analysis. I also mix it up to avoid a pattern and employ some cover betting such as letting max bets ride to the next shoe if the pit is watching or if they recently made a call to surveillance. For red chipping you don't have to worry about all that too much.
Good Luck,
I Used to Use
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 02-Jul-2004 08:51:34 (#9063)
the running count in red using Hi Opt II, which was conservative even then, but very easy to do. My spread would often get into the high teens this way. Cover was using the Martingale at times in red. You can often make your next bet look like a double up, or a reverse Marty after that, all within the parameters of the count. It looks like a dogs breakfast to anyone watching, but its still fulla meat n gravy.
Vintage RoboCount *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 02-Jul-2004 15:03:38 (#9082)
Risk of losing half of my bankroll
Posted by maggimaster on 01-Jul-2004 02:27:47 (#9045)
If I know my Risk of ruin for my whole bankroll (let's assume it is 10%), can I calculate the risk of losing one half or 1/4 of my bankroll?
Regards, maggi
Answer
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Jul-2004 10:03:17 (#9048)
If you ROR for your whole bankroll is 10%, the you have a 31.6% chance of losing 1/2 your bankroll and a 56.2% chance of losing 1/4 of your bankroll.
--Mayor
risk of losing half of the bankroll
Posted by maggimaster on 02-Jul-2004 03:21:59 (#9061)
Mayor, thanks for your answer. Can I scale it linearly, means with 1% ROR I have 3,16% chance of losing half the bankroll?
Greetings, maggimaster
A little math
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Jul-2004 09:54:59 (#9069)
If your risk of losing x is y then your risk of losing (1/2)x is sqrt(y).
Puzzled
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 02-Jul-2004 09:09:32 (#9065)
Mayor, I'm baffled by how the numbers can be so high in this analogy regarding ROR. For example: Your numbers, ROR 1/2 = 31.6 and ROR 1/4 = 56.2 . Without knowing how to do the math for this, and based on the direction your numbers are headed, I will estamate the ROR for 1/8 to be about 70%. How is this possible if we are playing with 0% - 2% edge? Can variance be this bad? Maybe that's why I've been on the "sucking eggs" side lately.
Answers
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Jul-2004 09:52:13 (#9068)
>I will estamate the ROR for 1/8 to be about 70%.
Close -- 74.9%
>How is this possible if we are playing with 0% - 2% edge?
It be possible.
>Can variance be this bad?
That's the game of blackjack, take it or leave it ...
ROR of Kelly betting 10% ?
Posted by Markus on 02-Jul-2004 12:16:12 (#9071)
Mayor,
the risk of losing half the bankroll for Kelly bettors is 33.3%, which is pretty close to your 31.8% for a ROR of 10%. Does this mean that the ROR for Kelly bettors is close to 10% ??? I am confused because I thought that Kelly bettors would have a ROR of 0%.
Greetings, Maggimaster
common confusion
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Jul-2004 12:27:32 (#9072)
True Kelly betting has you resizing your wager after each bet based on your current bankroll size and current edge. In this case the risk of ruin is 0%.
The typical way ROR is determined is that one computes optimal Kelly betting once, based on a fixed bankroll, then one does not resize bets at any future point. Without resizing, there is a real possibility of losing the entire BR. It is the latter that is typically assumed when discussed ROR or trip-ROR.
--Mayor
Zeno's Paradox, then?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Jul-2004 13:37:28 (#9131)
But won't any betting system reduce your risk of ruin to zero if you can always reduce your bet based on your bankroll? For example, I could set up a system where my max bet equals 1/16 of my bankroll. That way, I can split 4 times, double on each hand, lose all bets and still only lose half of my bankroll. What makes Kelly any better than that?
What makes kelly "optimal'
Posted by CT Counter on 08-Jul-2004 00:49:27 (#9155)
Kelly is better if your goal is to maximize the expected growth rate of your bankroll. Lots of fractional betting schemes keep your bank above zero, if you had infinitely divisible capital. But Kelly gives you the fastest growth rate, meaning the fewest average hands to double your bankroll.
there are some excellent posts by some very good players at BJ21.com and bjmath.com, as well as the paper by Kelly on proportional betting on bjmath.com. I imagine there may be some fine posts here as well but I am not as familiar with this site.
Podium
Posted by suicyco maniac on 01-Jul-2004 22:24:52 (#9056)
I would have taken his money If I didnt someone else would...But I am a greedy heartless SOB. All my time in casinos has hardened me. Good to see you did the right thing though Eliot... :)
My Hero
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 02-Jul-2004 08:28:05 (#9062)
I was at the late great Binion's and there was a guy there so pissed he had to hold himself up with the blackjack table he was playing. He was stacking reds into the rafters, and winning bags of reds from the table. Later that night he was bagging greens the same way. They had to carry him to his comped room and his greens to the cage for him. How could I help him? I picked his droped chips up for him and helped him stack them, and told him the proper play for each play ala the count.
There is a fine line between bravery and stupidity and you seemed to walk that line this time and fell on the right side of the fence. I'd be a bit more cautious Eliot. It's one thing to get nailed defending your family, and something totally different for a few bucks, even of a drunken stranger who will lose it that way or another. Your actions were noble and worth bosting of, but I suggest you be more careful.
Vigilance
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Jul-2004 10:09:04 (#9070)
My wife's reaction when she read the podium was that without a moral point, the story was simply vigilatiism. She inspired the penultimate paragraph, about the question we each face in such situations -- which occur in life far more than we may realize. It is our obligation as citizens to both fight against those laws that are immoral and unjust, and to support those laws we believe in that are moral. Both sides of this apply to the advantage community as well.
As advantage players, we face an immoral and unethical adversary (the casino), we are fighting for our rights to play the games by the rules offered, without an invasion of our personal privacy. And, in the singular instance described in the podium, I was able to wage the good fight from the other direction.
Life provides many circumstances where we can stand on our own moral high-ground, righteousness is easy. It is important to choose our battles wisely.
--Mayor
Similar situation at Horseshoe - I was later ejected for calling GCB *LINK*
Posted by Al Rogers on 02-Jul-2004 14:13:32 (#9080)
Congratulations to The Mayor for standing up for what is right.
We had a lengthy discussion on BJ21.com Green Chip about the similar incident reported in the newspaper story below.
My June 7 Green Chip post follows:
Saturday evening, while I was walking through the Horseshoe (I had not played or watched any of the games), I was approached by three security guards. One of the guards asked me, "Haven't you been '86'ed' from this property?" I replied no, and asked why he thought I should have been "86'd." The guard replied, "After you called Gaming a couple of weeks ago about that drunk, the shift manager you complained about told us that if you ever return, we have to tell you to leave the property."
They were polite, and seemed to be embarrassed by what they were doing. There was no attempt to "backroom" me, no demand for identification, and no threats made. They did not read the trespass act to me. I promptly complied with their request, and left the premises. They did not follow me to the door.
I am still waiting for Harrah's response. I doubt if there will be one.
The Mayor wrote:
As advantage players, we face an immoral and unethical adversary (the casino) ...
Well said.
Sounds
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Jul-2004 08:57:17 (#9110)
just like the guy I saw there. He was a reg customer and got pretty tanked while playing. It's sad to see people with so many personality problems like alkie ism and gambling, and the vultures that continue to allow them to kill themselves.
My Thoughts as Well
Posted by SammyBoy on 02-Jul-2004 12:31:51 (#9073)
You did a good thing. It's hard to say what I would or would not have done since I was not actually there, but I probably would have said something to the floor. I doubt very seriously I would have called Gaming Control, unless they had really pissed me off. I generally try to mind my own business, but I have a weakness in that I like to help people. I often cause myself alot of problems because of this.
Too bad you didn't...
Posted by zengrifter on 02-Jul-2004 12:45:28 (#9074)
... do it during an episode of Casino! zg
It Would have been cool to see the Mayor on TV! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 02-Jul-2004 12:48:48 (#9075)
That occured to me
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Jul-2004 13:13:38 (#9076)
It would have been great to get this on film and broadcast nationally -- it would have been 100% worthwhile ...
Speaking of national TV, today at 4PM Fox Sports is having their next installment of the poker tournament at the Plaza on June 6. I was there at the final heads-up match. If they broadcast the conclusion today, look for yours truly.
--Mayor
Podium
Posted by Sohrab on 02-Jul-2004 13:43:49 (#9077)
I admire your courage, but I do not know if I agree with you. I would feel better if you had stopped a drunk blackjack player from losing to the casino. Then I would know you were right.
It is easy for blackjack playrs to feel good about money taken from rich, nasty casino, but all poker players take advantage of their brains to take money from less smart people. This is poker.
When Bill Gates was in town for Comdex, big poker players tried to get him in their game so they could take his money, too, but he wouldn't play with them. Bill is too smart.
How do you draw line between drunk poker player and bad poker player? Or between bad poker player and good player who got angry and now plays bad (tilted)? I wonder what you think?
Poker Software
Posted by John on 02-Jul-2004 22:29:33 (#9084)
Hey,
I got the money to buy poker books and software, now so I was wondering what some of you poker professionals thought of the software located at
I just want to study it for right now in between playing blackjack. It seems a lot of mathematicians are making it to final tables in WPT and that was my major in college so I thought I study that and game theory and see what I think about it.
Just trying to do anything I can to NOT get a real job.
Ko Count: Risk of Ruin
Posted by MJ on 03-Jul-2004 17:39:38 (#9087)
This is my first post on this site and I just wanted to say I think your doing a good job of educating BJ players and sharing knowledge about the game!
Mayor, I was wondering what the ROR(risk of ruin) is if my bankroll is $1500 and I go into Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun and spread from $15 to $150? I would be using the KO Preferred system in a 6 deck game. How many hands would it take to double my bankroll and what are my chances of success assuming typical rules with Late Surrender and 75% penetration? 65% penetration? Right off the top my Basic Strategy expectation would be in the neighborhood of -.36% right?
What about the same spread ($15 to $150) for a bankroll of $3000? Any words of wisdom would greatly be appreciated!!! Thanks a million....
-MJ
Casey
Posted by Ed on 30-Sep-2004 17:41:52 (#10322)
I almost bought Casey last year. I became sidetracked,was in the hopital etc.
It still does interest me, thogh. I go way back to when Thorpe came out with
his first "ten count." Also, I knew lawrence Revere and took some lessons from him. He was then known as "Specs Parsons." (I worked with him at the old El Cortez, in Vegas, in the early 60's)
I didn't know his real name for
a long time. I spent a lot of my life in the casino business on both sides
of the pit and in the slots :-) Ah, those were the days.
It is a felony now
Posted by Sohrab on 01-Oct-2004 02:24:35 (#10333)
and they would not just take it. They would send you to jail. The police and courts love casinos and will protect them. If you knew Spec you are not young. Do not spend your last years in jail. It is not worth the risk.
what me worry ?
Posted by gehrig on 01-Oct-2004 10:47:35 (#10334)
with a dime in the joint a fellow could sharpen his theoretical 21 skills, between the marx and lenin readings. and with a clandestine, felon banked 21 game therein, could be the fellow would accumulate enough cigarettes to maintain the junk addiction.
sounds like a win-win.
Ploppy answer
Posted by Royam on 04-Jul-2004 00:08:40 (#9089)
Hi MJ,
I'm also new here and still a ploppy. I'll answer what I can and the experts will correct me and supplement with more detailed answers.
The numbers you mention do not sound good. The ratio of your big bet to your total bankroll is 1/10. As a comparison, Wong who bets conservatively speaks of 1/150 if you play a single hand or 1/200 if you play 2 hands. Other authors (namely Snyder) recommend no more than a 1/100 ratio.
I am incapable of answering your question regarding your exact ROR using the mentioned bet spread with your bankroll, but it would be way too high. From a more pragmatic perspective, the problem I see with a $1,500 BR is that your biggest bet should be $15 or so and that it will be hard to find tables where you can still have a bet-spread that allows you to take full advantage of the count without overbetting, which would increase your ROR.
I have no casino experience, but from what I've read, you might want to be careful with the spread you mention. 1-15 might draw heat if you begin to win regularly or play big. Authors recommend finding other ways to get an edge than crazy bet variations (e.g. wonging, playing 2 hands when count is positive, etc.), or have a real good act.
As for how many hands you would need to play, your expectation for for complete KO system, 6 decks, using a 1-10 spread (traditional rules) is .73 %. It seems that, if you play an average of $10 a hand, 100 hands an hour, you would make $7.30 an hour, so about 200 hours of play to double your BR.
Now I leave the word to the experts...
Royam
Your answer is great
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Jul-2004 09:36:06 (#9090)
I don't have the software to easily run a sim for this person, but there is absolutely no doubt that playing a $150 max bet with a $1500 or even $3000 bankroll is absurd. The entire bankroll could easily be lost the first session.
If I were to ball-park this, I would say there is about an 80% ROR with a $1500 BR and about a 65% ROR with a $3000 BR.
--Mayor
How can ROR be so high?
Posted by MJ on 04-Jul-2004 18:43:46 (#9100)
Mayor,
Pardon my ignorance as I am a newbie but how can the Risk of Ruin be so high as 80% for a $1500 BR and 65% for a $3000 BR(spreading $15 to $150 in both instances)? I don't doubt that you are correct but I would just like to understand your reasoning behind your estimates. Your figures are a rude awakening to me and make me think twice about hitting the tables!
Allow me to explain my reasoning and maybe you can correct my fallacies about the game. Recall that the games I would be playing in are 6D, S17, DAS, DA2, and Late Surrender. All of these rules would provide a -.36% expectancy for the player. Thats nearly a dead even game already!
Lets assume for just a moment I were flat betting at $15 a hand. In the short run I could easily come out ahead but in the long run I understand that I am destined to lose. Thats just the law of large numbers...The longer I play the more inevitable losing becomes as the house will grind out its .36% edge. So how do I get ahead? Alas the KO system!!
Now, Dr. Vancura states in "Knock-Out Blackjack" that employing a 1-10 bet spread with the rules described above(excluding late surrender) would allow the player a .73% expectancy using the KO-Preferred system. So now I have the advantage! I understand a little about standard deviation and variance but with this system shouldn't I win the at least the majority of the time(meaning I earn more then I lose)? When I place my top bets at the high running counts shouldn't I win the majority of those bets? If anything shouldn't my ROR be BELOW 50% for whichever bankroll I choose to employ? With your ROR estimates of 80% and 65%, I get the impression that NOT the counter but the house has the advantage. With an 80% ROR, that means I will ultimately go broke 4 out of 5 times I attempt this venture with a $1500 BR. I thought the odds were in the counters favor. Intuitively these RORs do not make sense to me. FOR MY SAKE AND THAT OF THE OTHER NEWBIES....PLEASE HELP.
Thanks,
-MJ
Confusing EV and StdDev
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Jul-2004 19:50:27 (#9103)
>With your ROR estimates of 80% and 65%, I get the impression that NOT the counter but the house has the advantage.
Don't confuse standard deviation with expected value. They are not the same thing.
For example, if you played a game that had 100 spots, and one spot payed 101-to-1, would you think that having 10 bets would be enough to beat this game? Or could you imagine you might have to play it 1000's of times (or more) to demonstrate your edge? That is not too far from what blackjack is like.
Standard deviation and expected value are different things. Have a positive EV does not mean there is no standard deviation to contend with.
As for how I arrived at the numbers, I used the standard SCORE model of a $10,000 bankroll and about a 13% ROR (which gives a max bet around $150), and worked backwards to your bankroll. Again, my estimates are rough, but I doubt many would say they are too low. If anything, your odds are higher than I posted of going broke.
--Mayor
Interesting Response
Posted by MJ on 05-Jul-2004 09:24:30 (#9111)
Thanks for the reply Mayor. You guys saved me $1500! That was a good example with the 100 spots. Just because I have a slight advantage in a game does not mean I will last long enough to realize it with only 10 bets...even if it does pay 101 to 1.
I was misguided in the belief that just b/c I have a positive EV I stood a good chance of winning the majority of ALL hands played in the long run. Your hypothetical scenario demonstrates that does not neccessarily have to be the case.
But please allow me to ask you this. If I were to wong my way into 100,000 hands that had a significantly high RUNNING COUNT(lets just say +4 which is the pivot point using KO system), would I win the majority of these(and ONLY these) hands played? Or would I still lose the majority of the time but make my juicy profits through double downs, blackjacks, splits, and index plays?
The author of "Las Vegas Blackjack Diaries" says you will lose more hands then you win, even at high counts. Some players tell me you win more hands during high counts and others say the opposite. Please set the record straight once and for all. Thanks again.
-MJ
W/L/T Percentage Changes with RC *LINK*
Posted by Dog Hand on 08-Jul-2004 23:09:51 (#9174)
MJ,
The link below shows the Win/Loss/Tie percentage as a function of High-Low RC. The conditions are 6 Decks, 75% penetration, 1-8 spread, no cover, S17, DAS, and LS, using the High-Low count. I know you asked about KO, but the differences will not be significant. As you can see in the chart, for reasonable RC values (say between -25 and +25) your Win percentage will be close to 43%. The major change at high RC is that as the RC increases, the Tie percentage increases.
Thus, the reasons a card counter makes money by betting big at high counts are the BJ bonus, more favorable double downs, and more favorable splits.
Hope this answers your question!
Dog Hand
$50 minimum at Foxwoods for 6 deck *NM*
Posted by John on 05-Jul-2004 02:05:04 (#9107)
6 deck $25 minimum/Foxwoods
Posted by Lars on 17-Jul-2004 21:29:36 (#9348)
I've played 6 deck at $25 minimum in the pasthell i even seen $10 and $15 minimums on 6 deck at certain days and hours for short times though.. admittingly i havent been to foxwoods in ages so it might or is different now..
Mayor's right..
Posted by Cyrano on 05-Jul-2004 04:16:47 (#9109)
I just simmed it with CVCX and it came to be 78.4% ROR with optimal spread.
Almost forgot
Posted by MJ on 04-Jul-2004 18:58:07 (#9101)
Just wanted to say thanks to Mayor and everyone else for answering my question.
-MJ
Another problem
Posted by Seeker on 04-Jul-2004 12:02:49 (#9092)
Your proposed spread between your highest and lowest bets is only 10-1. You should have an advantage at that ratio, but not all that much of one. At the eight-deck tables, you'll spend a lot of time playing your minimum bet in negative-expectation situations. These hands are so numerous that your expected losses on them, even at only $15 a hand, will take a serious bite out of your expected win on the few $150 hands.
The best alternative for your circumstances would be to back-count and Wong in when you find a favorable situation. After you Wong into one game, move on to another pit. I have no recent experience with this style of play at the Connecticut joints, but I think it's very likely that you'll have no heat problems at your bet level. The downside is that you'll have to do a lot of walking and then, when you've covered one casino, some driving followed by more walking. Welcome to the glamorous world of advantage play. The reason to put up with all this is that it's the only way to avoid paying the "rent" of playing all those negative-EV hands.
Find out, by observation or by asking, when the shifts change for pit personnel. If you time it right, you should be able to do a Wonging tour from one end of Foxwoods to the other, stop for a snack, and then start all over again with a bunch of pit critters who haven't seen you before.
At Foxwoods, last I knew, backlining was permitted. You assume the additional risk that the ploppy will misplay the hand, though. It doesn't take much departure from BS to wipe out the small edge you'll have even at a good count. If the count gets into positive-EV territory but someone grabs the only open spot before you do, you should probably resist the temptation to backline.
I'd advise you to forgo comps, i.e., don't get rated. You don't want to fix in the pit critter's mind the fact that you jumped into the middle of a shoe and then left at the shuffle. Your post gives the impression that you can readily return to these places fairly often, so even if you don't play the same pit twice on the same shift on the same day, over time they may come to recognize you. Not getting rated helps you avoid or at least delay that. Your comps with this style wouldn't be worth much, anyway.
Switching from a play-all style to Wonging should improve your hourly EV.
As for your original question, about RoR, I agree with everyone else that you shouldn't play with only ten max bets. I remember (all too vividly) a session in which I had a net loss of ten max bets in six minutes. Admittedly, that was in a heads-up game, which you won't get at Foxwoods. If you have a comparable bad run of cards at a full table, you can expect to survive for twelve or even fifteen minutes before blowing your entire bankroll. Most players wouldn't be comfortable with that level of risk, though.
You need about $23,000
Posted by John on 04-Jul-2004 13:37:19 (#9097)
I've never been to foxwoods or mohegan sun but I believe they are 8 deck games. I did a sim on your game. I believe that if you want to tackle foxwoods and mohegan, you will need a 1 - 16 spread at least. I believe 1 - 16 spreads are necessary for H17 6 deck games and 8 deck games to make it worthwhile. If I can get away with more, of course, I do it.
I put in 8 deck s17, DAS, DOA, Ls which is probably one of the best 8 deck games you can get. For 70 % pen, it said you need a bankroll of $23,000. This is if you spread 1 - 16. I get 10 % ROR, $38/hr, c-score of 18, DI= 4.32 .
For a 1 - 12 spread with the same minimum of $15, I get a ROR of 7.9 %, $28/hr, a c-score of 15 and DI= 3.96 .
Both of these strategies were play all strategies.
Good news, though.
If you have 4,000 dollars , you can wong those puppies.
Spread $15 to $60. This is exactly what you do for a game like this:
TC
<0 .....don't play
1......$15
2......$20
3......$35
4......$45
5......$55
6......$60
That is the optimal 1 - 4 spread for wonging in an 8 deck game with the above rules.
Bad news is that you only make $8.17/hr .
All sims done with Basic Hi-Lo
Posted by John on 04-Jul-2004 13:45:04 (#9098)
Forgot some things
31 % ROR with your current bankroll of 1500 dollars wonging in .
Mayor was correct, about an 83 % ROR with a play all strategy with current 1500 dollar bankroll.
If you play 8 deck, make sure your count is ace-reckoned. (Hi-Lo or something)
Playing in those casinos
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Jul-2004 16:53:18 (#9133)
I also play in those casinos, started my career there with even less capitalization. But I was very, very lucky and able to triple my bankroll before my first losing session.
Mohegan has 6 deck shoes out in the older "Casino of the Earth" section, and in the new section right near the Sunburst buffet. Foxwoods has only 8 deck except for the high-limit section (where you will definitely NOT be playing for a long time) which is 6. Now overall, Foxwoods had better average penetration *but* you can hunt around for better still penetration at the 6 deck shoes at Mohegan. Since you only care about the penetration at the table you are playing at, Mohegan can potentially give you a better game.
Wonging: both casinos are very Wongable, much easier to Wong out than in though. I'd strongly advise learning to Wong. Here's a way to Wong in with a partner: sit and play, and have your friend sitting there watching and "hanging out". When the count is right, call him a chicken for not betting and dare him toplace a big bet out.
ya
Posted by suicyco maniac on 06-Jul-2004 19:22:52 (#9135)
keeping one or two ploppies to wong out on can be a beautiful thing :-) I'm sorry I just have no more sympathy for people who willingly throw so much of their money and life down the tables with not even the slightest idea what they are doing.... SM
What I would do
Posted by Jman69 on 30-Sep-2004 19:45:59 (#10324)
Keep your max bet at 1% of your bankroll.
If you bet too much you will very likely lose your entire bankroll, then be forced to save up again from scratch.
Budget your income and set aside an amount of money you can afford to live without.
If you don't have enough money to spread 1-12 right now (keeping max bet at 1% of bankroll)
Wong into positive counts and exit on negative counts.
With wonging you don't need the full bet spread and can easily lay down 1% of your bankroll per hand in positive counts.
Trust me, feed your bankroll every week by $50-$100 + all your winnings and it will grow at a steady rate.
Bet too much and you will lose your bankroll over and over again.
What the heck- self-barred?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 04-Jul-2004 11:50:48 (#9091)
Holy cow, I was playing at a large shop on the Strip this week and a casino manager came over and told me my name was on a list of people who have barred themselves from the casino (due to a compulsive gambling problem), that I would be allowed(!) to cash my chips in but I would have to leave the casino floor.
After about 10 minutes of arguing they conceded it could be just a computer glitch and that I would be allowed to continue playing but I would be photographed. Sounds like BS to me. I was spreading heavy and winning, so I think this may have been a warning shot. So I responded by telling them no way, I don't want to play in your <expletives deleted> casino anymore and I want everyone's name because I'm going to get all of you <expletives deleted> fired for embarrassing a high roller at the table. (I'm not, but indicating that I think I am makes me sound like a real amateur. The whole purpose of standing and arguing was to act like an angry tourist.)
Now I've heard of this self-barring practice, and one of it's characteristics is that if you play after self-barring you agree to forfeit all winnings. This is what I thought might be coming. I'll be steering clear of this shop for a while.
Maybe Your Wife Put Your Name on the List? ;-) *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Jul-2004 12:52:11 (#9093)
Are you not afraid casino employees might read your post and remember the incident with you? *NM*
Posted by Royam on 04-Jul-2004 13:09:50 (#9094)
He's not going back there... *NM*
Posted by John on 04-Jul-2004 13:14:29 (#9096)
Ok, but what about other casinos?
Posted by Royam on 04-Jul-2004 18:41:15 (#9099)
Certainly, the "incident" was recorded and casinos have a legal duty to keep tapes for a few days (don't remember how many, 7 I think).
So if surveillance people see this thread, is there no risk that his picture ends up in the Griffin book?
Royam
Way too paranoid
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Jul-2004 19:46:59 (#9102)
No casino person is going to read a thread, track down survellience, then try and retro-engineer who the person is. That kind of thing simply does not happen.
This site has my REAL name all over it.
I use my REAL ID when I play.
If I, by living example, am not proof enough of the fact that casinos do not monitor these sites or threads to ID players, what more do you want?
--Mayor
Not the same
Posted by Royam on 04-Jul-2004 22:08:39 (#9105)
You... have reached a level of fame where you are intouchable, or the crowds would be unleashed against the tortfeasors... Ok-ok...just kidding. I guess you must be right.
My paranoia comes from reading too much. One author, might be Snyder, used to organize BJ round-tables in his living-room. One casisno had a floorman drive 200 miles to infiltrate the round-table and identify counters. This was 20 years ago and I just assumed that today's living-room where place like this site... Wong recognized that his green chip is infiltrated and even a black chip membership was sold to the CEO of a Vegas Casino, who had used his real name.
Your web-site is THE first one to come when you research "card+counter" on google; you have your picture on your web-site and these guys can't smell you when you take their money... there is a problem in their system, no? Let's hope management at Griffin does not become more clever ;)
Royam
the issue seems to reduce to...
Posted by gehrig on 04-Jul-2004 23:01:18 (#9106)
the universality of the relatively new procedure of "self exclusion". if one were to request self exclusion from a joint, wouldn't it be consistent with the aim of that "protection" to advise other joints in the corporate group ? would that request not similarly be sent to credit central, accessible by virtually all (nevada) licensees ? would that be an invasion of some privacy if that request were broadly distributed ?
could be a new method of legally passing information betwixt casinos, "for the good of the gambler/victim"
Mayor...
Posted by Cyrano on 05-Jul-2004 04:10:58 (#9108)
Just curious to what level do you go... When you play BJ, do you use any camo? Do you use a "reasonable" bet spread so you don't draw heat? Roughly speaking, how long do you play per session?
Yes...
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Jul-2004 10:08:50 (#9113)
>When you play BJ, do you use any camo? Do you use a "reasonable" bet spread so you don't draw heat? Roughly speaking, how long do you play per session?
This varies, of course. Typically, I am a VERY aggressive player. I spread $5 to 2x$100 at the Las Vegas Club single deck last time I was there. What I do have is a well-developed "heat-o-meter" and at the first sign of it I leave. That can even be a conversation between two bosses that I suspect is about me, or it can be a phone call where the boss turns his back to me. Of course I will use camo when needed to get the heat off, but I also freely double-down on T vs. T or A and split T's. I almost never play a session longer than 90 minutes, and usually they are much shorter.
I am a low level player, and because of this may not be of interest to many places. I certainly don't recommend my spreads or style to anyone betting "real" money, or to a would-be professional.
--Mayor
:-)
Posted by Cyrano on 06-Jul-2004 13:33:49 (#9130)
2x$100 is VERY real money to me.. ;-) The reason I ask is I'm trying to figure out how people can make 6 figures doing this. In order for you to do that, you have to be taking an average of at least a thousand out of the casinos every day you play. Anything less probably isn't worth my time, considering I still have to pay most expenses a sole proprietor will have to pay (medical, travel, taxes, etc...) Seems to me that's gonna draw scrutiny no matter what you do.
self-barring
Posted by rocky on 09-Jul-2004 16:49:56 (#9179)
Computer glitch, my ass...this was pure harassment. Since this is a Nevada store, they have to get you to SIGN OFF on your self barring and must be documented by dated photo or surveillance tape. If they allege a computer glitch, then screw with them in return...ask to see your self-barring document along with the dated photo. Keep in mind that this falls under the trespass law..good ole NRS207.200...time on this is only one year and you have the right to return after that. I'd raise holy hell all the way up to President/GM level since this is clearly their mistake. As far as being ID'd as a card counter and winding up in Griffin...your face is already. As a former surveillance type, I provided the pit/casino manager with recognitions in the past just to see them do absolutely nothing...if you're losing, they could care less. The only exception is good ole Tom Hyland...he'll get 86'd on general principle...they fear him that much.
But I'm only a green chip player
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Jul-2004 00:30:18 (#9184)
This shop spends more on urinal cakes each day than they could lose to me. It's totally irrational for them to make a scene at the table and scare away the ploppies on the July 4 holiday in order to intimidate me. Plus I've never really played in Vegas before, come on, can't they tell the players without a scorecard?
New lows of casino impropriety
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Jul-2004 11:52:22 (#9114)
>Holy cow, I was playing at a large shop on the Strip this week and a casino manager came over and told me my name was on a list of people who have barred themselves from the casino (due to a compulsive gambling problem), that I would be allowed(!) to cash my chips in but I would have to leave the casino floor.
Did you use your real name? If you used a made up name, there is always that chance, but if it is your real name, you have a legitimate complaint to the gaming control board about fraud.
If you were indeed being backed-off using this slimy and false argument, then the casinos have fallen to new ethical lows: using the good name of GA to harrass advantage players.
--Mayor
Real name
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-Jul-2004 14:24:44 (#9116)
Yes I was using a player's card, real name because I wanted the comps. This store is big enough that my green chip action should fly for a long time before it is considered a threat. They were so silly- if I was self-barred from their house why would I hand them a player's card with the barred name on it? That would be irrational. Of course, a CG is by his nature irrational when it comes to gambling so maybe he would do something like that.
Incidentally, the quality of ploppy play was way worse, everywhere, that anything I've ever seen in CT. Just appalling. My personal rule is that I will help ploppies with Basic Strategy info (just like some dealers do) and nothing else. This becomes a problem when the ploppy and I have the same hand and the count calls for an index play. But if I were to help every really bad player I saw this week I'd spend all my time lecturing instead of playing.
AM
Posted by suicyco maniac on 05-Jul-2004 18:39:35 (#9119)
I always give ploppies the advice that helps the count...if its negative I tell them to hit and split and not double and when it is high tell them to stand or double and NEVER let them split. Educating them is not worth the hassles that come with it. SM
No I couldn't do that
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Jul-2004 01:57:33 (#9127)
It's that silly old "Golden Rule" thing of mine. I'd never give bad advice to a player because I wouldn't want it to be given to me. Think of it this way: all the expert players around here hurt their EV by being here giving us good advice for free instead of making money at the table. So the least I can do is pass it on to a lesser player than me. The ploppies do me enough good just by being there and enabling me to Wong in/out.
The Last Casino
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 05-Jul-2004 09:47:20 (#9112)
During the weekend I was going thru the movies you can watch using Video on Demand, provided by Rogers Cable. You can call up any movie in the list and watch it, pause it, etc, just live a DVD. I saw the title above and watch the movie:
"A professor tutors three of his students in the art of counting cards before letting them try their new skills on an unsuspecting casino."
It was a pretty good movie! If you get the chance to check it out, do so. They use Hi Lo with an A side count, the BP approach, have a slimmy investor, and the proff, who can't play any more due to being barred, ends up with a bad gambling habit that turns him into a wrotten cheater. Good action, barrings, back roomings, and ends in a private high roller game with a one deck shuffle after every hand short deck...smile The blackjack consultant really knew his stuff. Beat the possible MIT type movie release by a long shot. Without the MGM advertising budget behind it, you'd never know the movie existed. Could be a nice set up for a milli $ law suit?
Check it out if you can. Made in Canada, eh?
http://community.spacecast.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002295;p=
and
http://www.themovienetwork.ca/details/?33950
Thanks for the tip I will be looking to get it! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Jul-2004 13:08:36 (#9115)
Played Blackjack Switch!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-Jul-2004 14:33:02 (#9117)
Downtown at the 4Q. Wow that game seems like a counter could really, really work it over if he can add the win rates of various hands to his arsenal.
I didn't know any specific strategy for it, so I played it like a shoe game, with the modification of adjusting my TC by 1 instead of 2 for extra aces to reflect the 1:1 BJ payoff. For making the switch decision, I did my best to recall the win rates for various dealt hands versus the dealer upcard and switched or not switched to create the two hands with the highest sum win rate. This process can be improved by knowing the win rates as a function of TC but there's some work and study I'll have to do before I'm ready for that. This was a very profitable sitting, and I'll be looking for more nearby places to play this game.
switch
Posted by eyesfor21 on 05-Jul-2004 17:27:26 (#9118)
bjswitch-
is not beatable unless you can bet different amounts on each hand
BJ Switch *LINK*
Posted by Geoff Hall on 05-Jul-2004 19:59:57 (#9123)
Seems like you had a nice run Automatic. I heard that one player turned $400 into $5,500 the other day at The 4 Queens, wasn't you was it ?
2 other places in Las Vegas now - 'Fitzgeralds' and 'Texas Station', both 6 deck versions as opposed to the 8 deck version at The 4 Queens (same rules).
As for the statement that BJ Switch can only be beaten by having 2 different bet sizes - totally not true. It's a Blackjack game with a 0.2% house edge so of course counting will turn the odds in the player's favour (they have to 'switch' well to benefit the most though).
Having said that, I wouldn't like it to be targeted too much by counters before it gets a chance to (hopefully) expand into the market.
Best regards
Geoff
Posting copyright material
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Admin on 05-Jul-2004 19:10:41 (#9120)
Please do not post the complete text of any work that has been copyright.
Please post at most a small portion (fair use) together with a link to the original article.
Needs advice on books/videos
Posted by Royam on 05-Jul-2004 19:29:27 (#9122)
Hi,
I have read (or already ordered) the books from the Mayor's reading list. If anybody can recommend other books, it would be most welcome.
Just to give you an idea of what I like:
- I found books like Blackbelt or Professional BJ good to understand the basics of counting and casino world (wondering if it would be worth reading Basic Blackjack?),
- I found books like Blackjack Secret or Burning the Tables in Las Vegas most useful, with their many tips on casino behavior (wondering what would be the benefit of reading the older book by Andersen, Turning The Tables?),
- I am using Zen, but do not mind reading books about other systems (like K-O), it is always good for general background, especially if the book contains other valuable information (like K-O),
- I did not like The World's Greatest BJ book as much as others, because part of it is outdated and it is confusing for a newbie to read too much conflicting information,
- And I found The Theory of BJ a bit too technical (the beginning I have read so far at least).
Apart from purely BJ books, I am considering buying the Counter's Guide to Casino Surveillance? Anyone can give me a feed-back?
Lastly, I am considering learning more about cheating dealers. Wong in Blackjack secrets recommends a book (Gambling Protection Series) and a video (Dealing with Cheats). Anybody can give a feedback or recommend other titles?
Thanks for your wise advices,
Royam
Materials
Posted by Hal Jordan on 05-Jul-2004 20:17:33 (#9124)
I suggest buying a copy of Cellini's work-it is worth the cost.
A few favorites of mine include Blackjack Autumn and any old issues of Blackjack Forum. I find that appreciating the history of the game, appreciating the lifestyle of the game, is often more useful than any other single aspect of actual casino play.
HJ
Thanks
Posted by Royam on 05-Jul-2004 21:22:33 (#9125)
I did not know about this book but found some good reviews, I will get it thanks. One review compared the book to Stuart Perry's Las Vegas Blackjack Diary, have you an opinion on this one?
Thanks for your tip,
Royam
Diary Writing
Posted by Hal Jordan on 06-Jul-2004 11:06:25 (#9129)
Although I would not include either Perry or Meadows among the great stylist of writing, I do enjoy the reality of their journeys. I preferred Blackjack Autumn because I feel that Meadows does a better job of capturing the reader in an interesting story. Meadows tells a story of a few months in his life. The story calls out to even a larger audience than BJ players alone. In the work that Stuart Perry does, you feel more like you are reading someones Blackjack log. I enjoy both works, but I find Blackjack Autumn to be much more captivating.
My overall feeling on any literature related to this game is that it is all a must read at some point. Even the garbage allows one to explore the psychology of what many consume.
HJ
Blackjack forum?
Posted by Royam on 06-Jul-2004 19:31:07 (#9137)
BTW, how would I get copies of Blackjack forum? get used ones? if so, where?
Royam
Best shot is E-Bay *NM*
Posted by Hal Jordan on 07-Jul-2004 12:08:22 (#9140)
Thanks Hal *NM*
Posted by Royam on 07-Jul-2004 12:48:21 (#9141)
Back issues of Blackjack Forum available at.... *LINK*
Posted by Seeker on 07-Jul-2004 20:45:46 (#9148)
this website:
My Review of The Card Counters Guide to Casino Surveillance *PIC*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Jul-2004 08:35:43 (#9128)
I really do not know why it took me so long to ask Cellini if I could review his book The Card Counters Guide to Casino Surveillance. I have always found Cellini very approachable, funny, and more than knowledgeable. Maybe it was the price (was $100, now $50), and I never thought anyone would part with a book of that value to have it reviewed. It may have been because I hold Cellini in such high regard. I can't imagine myself offering Edward Thorp a review of some new book he may publish one day for this same reason. In Arnold Snyder's introduction he says "This is the most important information for professional blackjack players to be published since the 1962 edition of Ed Thorp's Beat the Dealer." I don't feel so silly about not asking after reading that. My signed copy to "a true player's advocate" came from Huntington Press a week later...................
http://members.rogers.com/blackjackprofessional/cellini.htm
Thanks
Posted by Royam on 06-Jul-2004 16:50:20 (#9132)
Sounds good, I will get a copy then (despite the high price).
Thanks for the review.
Royam
Uston on BJ...
Posted by zengrifter on 06-Jul-2004 19:19:20 (#9134)
...is one of my favorites. zg
Thanks, and what about the older ones
Posted by Royam on 06-Jul-2004 19:29:56 (#9136)
Thanks for the advice, Zen.
Good opportunity to ask: what do you guys thinks of the older books, like:
- Million dollar BM,
- Beat the Dealer,
- Playing BJ as a business?
If the interest is mainly for the history perspective, I guess I'll have to pass on these ones as I do not have an infinite BJ budget and wuold like to focus on books with the higher usable knowledge / book ratio. For instance, I find Burning the Tables absolutely mind-blowing. The author displays a lot of emotional intelligence. Now that I mention this book, nobody answered my previous questions:
- If I have Burning the Tables, is Turning the tables useful?,
- If I have Professional BJ + BJ secrets, is Basic BJ usesful?
Thanks for your advices,
Royam
MDBJ is a must read!! *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 06-Jul-2004 20:36:41 (#9138)
all good reading...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Jul-2004 16:06:16 (#9142)
... but obsolete. zg
- Million dollar BM,
- Beat the Dealer,
- Playing BJ as a business?
Thanks Zen and all for good advices, books are on their way :) *NM*
Posted by Royam on 07-Jul-2004 20:39:39 (#9147)
The only books that are NOT obsolete...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Jul-2004 21:27:53 (#9150)
... are -
Blackbelt
Knockout
Cellini
Uston on BJ
Extreme BJ
Who needs books?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Jul-2004 02:32:27 (#9156)
Ha, I've been counting for 9 months now and up over $10K, and I have yet to read a blackjack book. All you need is...
1. Software- CVData, run the sims and fool around with them. Change things and see what happens and remember this at the table. Create your own counts and index sets. Learn what works and what doesn't, and think about why.
2. Websites. This one, blackjackcardcounterscafe on Yahoo, bj21.com, bjfonline.com Full of information, and experts (like you ZG!) who share real, practical, and current advice with players of all levels. It's like a military academy. You go in as an underclassman, and you take orders from everyone. Then you become a cadet, and you take orders from officers, and give orders to underclassmen. Then you become an officer and you have nothing to worry about but losing your life or your bankroll. Here, instead of orders, we give/take advice.
3. The intelligence to properly implement 1. and 2. But if you don't have that, you're not going to be able to learn the game from a book anyway.
AM
Posted by suicyco maniac on 08-Jul-2004 05:24:27 (#9157)
I dissagre....yes there is alot to be learned form the people on this board but you would be amazed at some of the info you get out of the "classics" many times I have sat down to read a copy of a book a few years after I bought it and dozens of readings later and all of a sudden something will reach out and grab me in a whole new light even though I have read it so many times B4...SM
Couldn't Agree More *NM*
Posted by Hal Jordan on 08-Jul-2004 10:07:09 (#9159)
I'm happy
Posted by Royam on 08-Jul-2004 06:48:19 (#9158)
I'm happy it worked for you.
Each of us has her/his own way, which is fortunate otherwise we would be clones and easy to spot.
Royam
blackjackcardcounterscafe ...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Jul-2004 11:05:59 (#9162)
... is like a once nice neighborhood turned bario. zg
must be that the "cccafe" premises is located on some...
Posted by gehrig on 08-Jul-2004 15:02:13 (#9166)
superfund site. barium ain't no good for one's body.
mebbe the newly annointed, vice pres wannabe could file a class action suit on behalf of all those "'cafe" residents and visitors who exhibit heavy metal poisoning. there are several symptoms and other than perhaps weight loss, (from the proliferation of infomercials, an apparently 'widespread' afflication), they be all bad.
the aliteration... bario and barrio, mirror... *c*ard *c*ounter *c*afe. that must "prove" the case. ain'a ? where can we sign up for that "bario" gravy train ? gotta be some big "ev" on this play since an ambulance chaser tried to tag mcdo's for hundreds of thou on that hot coffee farce. paralysis oughta be worth more.
good adv-EV thoughts...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Jul-2004 17:02:27 (#9170)
... maybe i'll rejoin! zg
Re: Books
Posted by CanKen on 10-Jul-2004 17:53:38 (#9191)
Different people have different learning styles. For myself, I love books - reading and collecting. Most of what I know comes from books, although I use high quality software, and participate in forums like this as well.
You've been very successful with your style. Keep it up and good luck.
Red Seven
Posted by Gordon Gekko on 07-Jul-2004 17:26:48 (#9143)
With the biggest commodity I know being "Information", does anyone have the index numbers for splitting 10's using Red Seven?
Thanks
gg
No, sorry
Posted by Royam on 07-Jul-2004 17:58:58 (#9144)
But most authors strongly advise against splitting tens. This is a move that flags you as either a total beginner or a counter. As you're probably playing perfect basic strategy, they will quickly make their choice.
Royam
They can....
Posted by Gordon Gekko on 07-Jul-2004 18:28:10 (#9145)
...red flag me all they want. Im betting red hit-n-run style with not much need for cover. I believe in playing and betting aggressively in short playing stints, and have always split 10's in the past to clear ploppys.
Suggested numbers from someone fimiliar with Red 7 would be great.
gg
If Arnold Snyder is familiar enough for you...
Posted by Royam on 07-Jul-2004 20:30:18 (#9146)
... he comments on the advanced Red Seven playing strategy tables as follows:
"If there is no entry for a decision, then you should always use basic strategy. No pair split indices are provided because the gains are too small to bother with" (Blackbelt, 2nd Ed., page 49).
Royam
This is true.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Jul-2004 16:41:23 (#9178)
except for TT vs 5,6 !!
IF you look at the I18, you will see they are around the 4th or 5th most profitable play you can make. When Don S. first created the I18 he was orignally going to call it the Sweet 16 and not include the two 10 split plays. I guess Peter Griffen convinced him to let the math do the talking so he included them.
Sometimes splitting 10s in a negative count early (with minimum bet out) gets you labeled "stupid ten splitter" and is a small cover price to pay to get heads up (the ploppies don't like playing with some one who splits 10s) and being able to profitable split 10s in high counts with no heat.
In this type of strategy, I agree *NM*
Posted by Royam on 09-Jul-2004 17:25:25 (#9180)
Exactly my strategy!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Jul-2004 00:22:06 (#9183)
Where I play normally, you could sit and read a Snyder book at the table and nobody would care, nor recognize the name. But I also give myself some 10 splitting cover by splitting occasionally at lower TC. Being I sidecount Aces that gives me a little more info as to when is a good time to do it, and it shuts the ploppies up real quick when I draw an Ace to a split 10.
Splitting 10's
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jul-2004 21:40:58 (#9151)
Splitting 10's is one of the more lucrative index plays, so good that I don't like giving it up. So I'll occasionally do it against a 6 at a lower count, especially being I sidecount aces and a high ace density is a great time to do it. That can throw them off. You don't end up doing it more than once a night anyway, usually, and if you get to that point your probably having a good night, so after splitting 10's be a good time to take a break and play somewhere else.
R7 indices are on Web
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Jul-2004 21:23:56 (#9149)
Blackbelt is partially published online w/ R7#s, but I don't know the URL. Anyone? zg
Unless...
Posted by Royam on 07-Jul-2004 21:48:56 (#9153)
Unless the web version is more complete than the paper version, it won't help. I have verified in Blackbelt and the split indices are not given (see quotation in my above answer).
Royam
Split Indices are NOT necessary. Does anyone...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Jul-2004 11:03:48 (#9160)
... know the URL of BBIBJ web-version? zg
PS - Except XX vs. 456 *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Jul-2004 11:04:40 (#9161)
ZG - It is at *LINK*
Posted by MrPill on 08-Jul-2004 11:41:15 (#9163)
And then look under how to beat casino blackjack.
Pill
Or in a non-DAS game *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Jul-2004 15:54:27 (#9167)
R7 indicies are on web
Posted by Gordon Gekko on 08-Jul-2004 00:37:41 (#9154)
Zg gave them to me a few years back. However, a hard disk crash made them go bye-bye.
Thanks anyways.
gg
Red7 Indicies
Posted by MrPill on 08-Jul-2004 11:50:22 (#9164)
GG,
I avoid splitting 10's but will check the indice when I get home for you.
Pill
Ace Sequencing
Posted by MJ on 07-Jul-2004 21:45:11 (#9152)
Is it true that if the player knows an Ace is going to come out of the deck and is actually dealt that card then they have a 40% Expected Value(or more) for that given hand?
Anybody got any info on the advantage play technique and how it works?
-MJ
Ace, YES almost 50%...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Jul-2004 17:01:08 (#9169)
... and knowing that one of the first two cards is a 10 is worth 13%
The best technq is found in David Morse 'BJ Reality' zg
ace "sequencing" and better, steering...
Posted by gehrig on 08-Jul-2004 23:14:27 (#9175)
are taught in certain game protection seminars. but just because surveillance types have seen the moves demonstrated does not mean that they can recognize them on the job.
same with controlled dice delivery. that technique has been demonstrated to my satisfaction as being a learnable skill. the problem is akin to the current feeding frenzy surrounding no limit hold 'em. just seeing it done, reading the books/viewing the tapes, does not make one proficient.
same with sector shooting. i have to take the word of a couple of dealer friends because: i trust them; and i don't have access to a wheel, off casino premises to see the move. done "on the job" could buy them a jacket.
R7 - 10s vs. 456
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Jul-2004 15:00:57 (#9165)
Here's the link, but it doesn't have those #s
http://www.bjfonline.com/chpt4.cfm
Here is my estimate (based on 'griftKO') of the correct #s for 1-2D -
XX vs 5,6 = +3
XX vs 4 = +5
R7
Posted by Gordon Gekko on 08-Jul-2004 16:45:05 (#9168)
Zg, Thank you! I believe those were the numbers you gave me a couple of years back.
gg
btw - Thanks to Pill too. Good to see you again.
No, they weren't...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Jul-2004 17:52:35 (#9171)
...those #s were for a hybrid I call 'halve7s' which requires a TC-adjustment. Before you commit to learning the UB'd R7, you might consider also KO which requires no 'bifarcation' of the red/black 7s. The 'griftKO' for 1-2D is posted on this board, btw. zg
It seems.....
Posted by Gordon Gekko on 08-Jul-2004 22:57:12 (#9173)
...you have softened a bit on the passion you once had for R7. I guess I can understand since KO doesnt require you to factor in +/- .5, which would be easier for the newbie. However, from your suggestion several years ago, I learned R7 inside and out with great success, and will continue to use it. I even start my RC at 48 for 1D since dealing with negitive numbers was a but confusing. R7 combined with the G-Gambit and watching you personally....Hey, it's all good baby! ;)
Cheers
gg
Thanks to Pill too. Good to see you again.
Posted by MrPill on 09-Jul-2004 07:25:14 (#9177)
No problem, I'm always around. Just kind of the silent type.
Good Luck,
Pill
I concur with those ZG *NM*
Posted by MrPill on 09-Jul-2004 07:20:51 (#9176)
Help!
Posted by Rowena on 09-Jul-2004 21:06:09 (#9181)
Hi, My brother and I recently decided to learn to count cards. We've decided on the Uston APC method but we have no idea how to learn it. We've tried looking it up on the internet and libraries but we can't find anything.
Please help,
Why would anyone want to suffer that much...
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Jul-2004 17:15:45 (#9190)
Uston's APC is difficult and was good for the single deck gamesof the time. WHy not HI-LO or even better learn the KO count. There is tons of research on both and they are good for single or multiple decks.
Uston APC
Posted by suicyco maniac on 10-Jul-2004 21:02:04 (#9198)
I've played the APC for several years but if I had it to do over again I would play something else... most likely the UBZ2.....just my two cents SM
Difficulty Level
Posted by shaggy18vw on 10-Jul-2004 23:51:19 (#9199)
There is a reason it is hard to find info about the APC on the internet. That count was popular when computers were programmed with punch cards. Look into a simpler count such as Hi-Low or KO. These counts will offer nearly all of the advantage gained by the APC with about half the effort. You will be able to find all sorts of info on these two counts. If all else fails you can buy a book on the Hi-low or KO. The books are Professional Blackjack and Knock-Out blackjack respectively. good Luck.
hmmm
Posted by Rowena on 11-Jul-2004 13:05:32 (#9214)
Well, ok I was just looking for something a bit more advanced than Hi-Lo, which is what we're using now. It just seemed too simple to be /that/ good. Maybe I'll try KO then.
Re: Too simple to be good
Posted by TwuntyWun on 11-Jul-2004 15:50:40 (#9218)
"Well, ok I was just looking for something a bit more advanced than Hi-Lo, which is what we're using now."
I think the reponders to your initial post inferred from it, as I did, that you did not currently know a counting system, as you stated that you had just decided to learn. Hi-Lo is quite effective for both beginning and experienced counters. I have often heard it said that it really doesn't matter much which counting system you use, as long as you use it well. If you are comfortable with true count conversions, and can use Hi-Lo quickly & effectively, there seems to be little reason to switch. If you want to get every tiny bit of advantage you can from the system you us, you could certainly consider a more advanced system, but without knowing your abilities and style of play, it would be virtually impossible for anyone to tell you what is best for you.
"It just seemed too simple to be /that/ good. Maybe I'll try KO then."
Hmmmm. Well, if Hi-Lo seems "too simple" to be good, you will really doubt the effectiveness of KO, as it is even more simple than Hi-Lo. Simplicity is the feature of KO that leads most people to use it. The thought process is that if you use an easier counting system, you will do so with fewer errors and be able to play longer before fatigue sets in. The argument is that the loss of EV from a less effective but simpler system is recouped through greater accuracy & extending your effective hours of play.
Moving from Hi-Lo to a more complicated system brings up the same issues. The system is only as effective as the user using it. Do you think you can you use a more complicated system accurately & quickly enough to realize its full effectiveness? Only if you can answer yes (as you look condescendingly at me for even asking the question) should you think of changing to a higher level system. Your initial post indicated a very low level of experience, so I would consider this carefully before you choose to go in this direction.
As for the systems themselves, I know in one of the many BJ books on my shelf, someone published a comparison of the betting correlations & playing efficiencies of the various counting systems, but I can't quickly locate it now, nor do I remember how reliable the source was. Perhaps one the brighter bulbs on the board can illuminate that for us :o) My recollection is that KO (and perhaps any unbalanced system?) when compared to Hi-Lo has a slightly lower playing efficiency and a slightly higher betting correlation (which degrades the further you get from the pivot point. I seem to recall that it under-estimates in one direction, and over estimates in the other) Someone please correct me if I am wrong--it's been awhile since I considered making this switch myself and did all the research.
I think the thing that convinced me to stick with Hi-Lo was the fact that I was in the proces of putting alot of hours into practicing it, getting good at true count conversion, and researching and learning a set of Hi-Lo indices. I decided the change would make the work I had done pointless.
Hope my $0.02 is useful to you.
TW
Try Hi-Opt II
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Jul-2004 22:13:05 (#9226)
You'll need to learn to sidecount Aces too, but once you get it down, you'll have a system that will take you all the way from weekend counter to full-time professional, in any type of game. It's easier than APC and has virtually the same power.
Ace Count
Posted by Rowena on 12-Jul-2004 13:40:42 (#9241)
How tough is it to learn the ace side count and what is a good betting strategy to use with it?
Hi-Opt II and RPC for betting
Posted by mark goodman on 05-Jan-2005 21:02:49 (#11600)
How would you go about using Hi-Opt II and RPC for betting?
I would appreciate someone explaining this to me.
I'm new to cardcounter's.com and also to blackjak, so hey everyone.
From what I have read Hi-opt II is the way to go if your willing to put the time and energy to learn it. Would this be safe to say?
I do appreciate the inside.
Also, how do you use the Ace side count? Are there different ways to use an Ace side count?
Thanks for your time
Mark
Hi-Opt II and RPC for betting
Posted by Sonny on 06-Jan-2005 11:13:12 (#11608)
> How would you go about using Hi-Opt II and RPC for betting?
All card counting systems work in the same way: When the count is positive you have the advantage over the casino. When you have the advantage you should bet more money (or sit down and start playing). The higher the count is the more of an advantage you have, therefore the more you should bet.
Obviously there should be constraints on your betting schedule. If you have a $4000 bankroll you should not throw out $200 bets at a +3 true count. Overbetting your bankroll is a sure-fire way to go broke. I think most players are comfortable limiting their highest bet to about 1% (or less) of their total bankroll. That means that you might want to use $40 as your top bet, but you should always calculate your bets to maintain an acceptable risk-of-ruin. Any good BJ book or software will help you with this crucial part.
A typical bet spread might look like this:
Single-Deck:
< +1 - $10
= +1 - $20
= +2 - $30
> +2 - $40
Double-Deck:
<=+1 - $5
= +2 - $10
= +3 - $20
= +4 - $30
< +4 - $40
Six-Deck:
<=+1 - Don't Play
= +2 - $10
= +3 - $20
= +4 - $30
< +4 - $40
Of course, you would want to adjust these schedules in order to increase your earnings while maintaining an acceptable level of risk. Both are personal decisions that will vary from player to player. Again, any good book or software will help you with this.
> From what I have read Hi-opt II is the way to go if your willing to put
> the time and energy to learn it. Would this be safe to say?
The Hi-Opt II is a very good system. I use it myself. However, it is not a good system to start with because it is very difficult to learn. I would suggest starting with Hi-Low until you get enough casino experience. This all assumes that you know Basic Strategy in your sleep.
There are many other good systems like Zen that are just as powerful but simpler to use. This might be another consideration. By the time you are ready to graduate to a more complicated system you will already know which one is best for you.
> Also, how do you use the Ace side count? Are there different ways to
> use an Ace side count?
The way most players use it is to keep track of how rich the deck is. If you have seen 13 cards and no aces have come out yet then the rest of the deck has one extra ace in it. You would then add +2 to your running count before you calculate your betting TC. Just don't forget to subtract it again once you start making our playing decisions!
Another way would be to keep a side count where 3&6 = -1 and the aces = +2. When you add these two counts together you would have the Revere Point Count for betting and the Hi-Opt II for playing. This is much more work than it is worth in my opinion. I use the above "ace-density" method and save my extra brainpower for shuffle-tracking which can be much more useful.
-Sonny-
The Ace sidecount
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Jan-2005 13:32:34 (#11611)
In order to get the full 0.99 BC you have to balance the Aces against the 3's and 6's (Zen Grifter knows all the deal on this) which is something I've never tried but it sounds difficult. And all you really end up with is RPC. You can do the same thing with HO1 and balance the Aces against the 2's and 7's.
The thing is that in the shoe games PE isn't worth nearly as much as BC. So I think you're better off counting with RPC, and as you progress use your sidecounts to adjust your play and insurance decisions, if you want. And if you bugger up the sidecount on a shoe, you are left with straight RPC which gives up very little to HO2+A anyway. In contrast, if you are counting HO2 and you bugger up your Ace sidecount, you're in trouble.
The Ace sidecount
Posted by Sonny on 07-Jan-2005 11:10:40 (#11625)
> In order to get the full 0.99 BC you have to balance the Aces against the
> 3's and 6's...
I got the .99 BC directly from Griffin's book. I thought his calculations for the gain from adding the ace sidecount were using the ace-density method, not the additional running count method. Am I wrong? Anyone have it handy?
I should buy a second copy of that book to keep at work with me. Heck, there should be a pocket-edition!
That's a GREAT point about the RPC. Even if you mess it up you're still better off!
-Sonny-
P.S.- Lets see how long it takes the Grifter to chastise us for recommending the ace-density method. ;)
Not that hard
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Jul-2004 16:28:41 (#9247)
I use letters to keep track of the aces. You use the ace count to modify the True Count when it comes to betting, and the standard formula is to raise the TC by 2 for every extra ace-per-deck left, and decrease it by 2 for every ace-per-deck that the remaining cards are short. There are a lot of people here who use this count and I'm sure everybody has their own tricks.
There are these things called multiparameter sidecounts where you use the ace count to modify certain playing decisions too. For example, when doubling on 9 or 10, or splitting 10's, having a lot of aces left is beneficial. But multiparameter counts are for the most advanced players and you want to be counting and playing a winning game before you try to incorporate them.
As a shoe player the part I like most about Hi-Opt II is it's great insurance correlation. Shoe players put out some huge bets, and having the most accurate insurance information possible will save you a lot of money in the long run.
stick to simplicity
Posted by Lars on 17-Jul-2004 21:08:24 (#9347)
Stick to simplicity Rowena.. just because Uston's counts are more complex then Hi-Lo or KO doesnt mean its more accurate or more effective. I suspect Uston came out with those counts because he had a ego and wanted to prove he can do things harder then other people did.. stick to the simple version of Hi-Lo with bigger spreads or check out the KO system (the website is www.koblackjack.com).. as far as i know KO is more accurate then Hi-Lo because you do not need to keep a true count only a running count.. and a true count is just "estimated" not necessarily 100% when you come out with the true count from the running count.. <shrugs> .. thats my .03 cents in lol jkk
Uston APC
Posted by Seeker on 14-Jul-2004 16:50:07 (#9305)
I'm pretty sure that the Uston APC system is spelled out completely (the count, the index numbers, the Ace side count, using the side count to modify your bets) in the book Million Dollar Blackjack, by Ken Uston. My copy is out on semi-permanent loan, though, so I can't confirm my recollection.
My guess is that no such comprehensive discussion is available anywhere on the Web.
Having said that, I'll concur with the other people who said that you shouldn't switch. Stick with High-Low. Expend your energy on getting a bigger spread down, not on trying to adopt a more complicated system.
How many of you are still playing BJ ?
Posted by John on 10-Jul-2004 06:24:17 (#9185)
I am really discouraged. It wasn't the fact that I had another losing trip. I didn't lose that much and know why I lost. I lost because I didn't get in enough playing time. Why ? I could go on for 5 pages about why.
Something scared the crap out of me this week.
I got trespassed. I got trespassed from 2 casinos. The whole damn deal. The only thing the casino didn't or forgot to do was call in the SWAT team. This makes me sound like I was cleaning up and raking in the money left and right. I wasn't. I was up a little when it happened. This wasn't about profits, it was personal. I believe my picture has been faxed to casinos in that whole area. When I go to a casino now around there, they give me 25 - 50 % penetration now on a 6 deck shoe. It didn't used to be like that. They might as well be dealing out of a csm.
I had a problem at a 3rd one that I can't really discuss.
I am pretty new at this. When I was trespassed, I was at the table/casino for 20 minutes. It happened on I think the 3rd shoe. Actually, that was the last shoe I was going to play and then I was going to leave. They got me by a few hands.
I didn't go into much detail about exactly what happened because I'm not sure I should. I'm never going back there again, but just don't know what I can say and what I can't. The good thing is that it was kind of a sh**hole.
In my opinion, those higher-ups at that casino were idiots. I took about two hundred dollars off of them, but do you know how many people witnessed that huge scene. Do you know how many ploppies were sitting at that table and surrounding tables that absolutely couldn't have missed that scene ? If a pitboss would have whispered in my ear, "we would like you to leave now", I would have left. Those pitbosses were gutless.
To all the casino personnel reading this, thanks for the money guys.
What State?
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 10-Jul-2004 06:48:12 (#9186)
You might be able to build your roll for several months, and go back and hit them harder. Some one here might have some experience with your location.
Welcome to the club. Buy a hat and some sun glasses.
What state ? No comment
Posted by John on 10-Jul-2004 07:05:38 (#9187)
Abraham,
I shouldn't say the state. I'll e-mail it to you. If I say the state, casino personnel read this...well that makes it too easy for them. theredpill99@yahoo.com (my new e-mail)
You know what they say about what doesn't kill us. I was just shocked by the whole thing. You would have thought that I was wanted for murder. I even thought about getting the motel room under another name. haha
Another thing, the Mayor said that he doesn't believe casino personnel read this. I think a majority don't but I believe that there are those that do. Where would all this hostility come from ?
Sad...
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Jul-2004 10:17:58 (#9189)
>Another thing, the Mayor said that he doesn't believe casino personnel read this. I think a majority don't but I believe that there are those that do. Where would all this hostility come from ?
I never said that casino management does not read this site. I said they do not identify players from what they read.
As for the hostility, welcome to the game! It is absurd. But, the hostility has nothing to do with these web sites. Such hostility has been going on for over 30 years, long before the Internet and blackjack web sites. I suggest you (re)read Cellini's essays to get some idea about the idiots who run casino security.
I am sorry about your tresspasses. Were you read the tresspass act? Or were you just asked to leave and told not to return? It is extremely hostile for a low level player at a shoe game playing solo to get such treatment.
--Mayor
That's pretty extreme
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Jul-2004 08:30:41 (#9188)
To be trespassed like that as soon as you walk into the casino? Normally there should be several polite backoffs and any-game-but-blackjack before they ban you from the premises. Did they rough you, or try to backroom you?
The reaon I ask is that they might have thought you were a cheater or criminal rather than a counter because the treatment you got is what I would expect them to get. Some of these security people lump cheats, crooks, and advantage players all together. Did they give any verbal justification for their actions?
leading up to this
Posted by John on 10-Jul-2004 18:25:34 (#9192)
I appreciate your responses.
Leading up to all this, when I've used my players' card at some places, I've gotten dealers taking a step backward when they swiped it through and their eyes opening wide. I'm not kidding. I try to notice people a little more than I used to. It went something like this. This was about 2 trips ago.
I give dealer my card. She asks PB if he wants it. PB says "no,I don't need it". Dealer swipes the card through the machine. Her eyes light up. She looks at the PB then he comes over and looks at the machine and she says, "Do you want it now?" . He says, "yes, I'll take that."
Just thought that was something wierd that happened. I was going to ask the dealer my balance but didn't. For the rest of the time at the table, the dealer seemed to consistently check the amount of my bets. She would take them and spread them out then stack them up again in the circle. She didn't do it to anyone else and she was checking 15 dollar wagers which I thought was odd.
Automatic,
Yeah, they read me the trespass act. 4 security guards approached me from behind while I was playing. Asked me for my ID. I was reluctant because I remember what the mayor said. I was also intimidated. I got up out of my chair and faced them. I said, "You want my ID ? Why do you need my ID?" They said, "We just need it." I reluctantly gave it to them. The first guy takes my ID and gives it to somebody else. I said, "Hey, aren't you going to give my ID back?" He says, "You'll get it back. I need you to gather up your chips and come with me. We are going to let you cash them out at the cashier's cage." I said, "What's wrong ?"
Keep in mind, the game is still going on. He tells me to keep playing and finish my hands. I pick up my chips and he tells me to go to the cashiers cage. I give them my chips and they count it, then the 4 security guards take me outside and read me the trespass act. They tell me I'm not allowed at any other casinos owned by such and such. They said I couldn't go to this other casino that they owned. I said Ok.
Oh yeah, I was backed off last week, too at a place near where I was trespassed. I wasn't trespassed then but there was a long conversation between me and the PB.
Reading something off a card
Posted by John on 10-Jul-2004 18:40:47 (#9193)
Maybe they didn't read me the trespass act. They read something off a card, though. Anyone know what the trespass act sounds like? The guy read it off so fast that I can't remember what exactly he said. Also, no PB or other casino personnel were around, just security guards.
You've got mail *NM*
Posted by Royam on 10-Jul-2004 19:05:37 (#9194)
You should have gathered your chips and left.
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Jul-2004 19:42:45 (#9195)
If you walk towards the door what can they do. If they grab you dont resist. Ask for the police. Dont give them any thing. When the cops come cooperate with them and ask to speak to a lawyer. I would even dare to attempt fate with the cops. If they ask for ID. Tell them this is questioning and you want an attorney. Just dont be a smarta$$. Be polite and cooperative up to a point. If they arrest you they still nee probable cause. I dont see it happening. If it does geta good civil rights attorney and sue sue sue!!!!
The previous thread on the police having the right to ID a person goes back to the original rules of investigating a loitering and prowling case. They still have several investigative issues that show a need for suspecting a crime. In short they need a identifiable reason of why they need to see your ID. In the past it was easier to ask/order a person to ID themselves. This was tightened up and now it was loosened. A law enforcement officer still cannot go and order anyone to ID them selves at his whim. There is still a legal map to follow when doing so.
As far as the casinom blackball well you better find other avenues to play. Goodluck
They are questioning me
Posted by John on 10-Jul-2004 20:06:17 (#9196)
and I'm doubling 9 v 6 's . haha
I should have split the tens just for the hell of it.
Also, I finally hit a hard 17. I got a 4 for a 21 !! This was at another joint after the trespass. Then I had a 13 and I said "Eight !" and she gave me an eight. I should stopping doing that stuff because that will get me in trouble. I didn't know an eight was coming just guessing you know.
LTC is right
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Jul-2004 20:46:49 (#9197)
They have no right to see your ID or to prevent you from gathering your chips and leaving. If they question you, just ask if you are suspected of committing a crime. If they say yes, ask for the police to be called. If they say no, just leave.
--Mayor
Cops and IDs *LINK*
Posted by Cyrano on 11-Jul-2004 00:03:29 (#9201)
There was a case this last supreme court session where the justices ruled that a cop has a right to see your id. Note: this case was from NEVADA...
Not in this case
Posted by The Mayor on 11-Jul-2004 10:18:24 (#9209)
Casino security does not have police authority. They can detain you until the police arrive if they suspect you of a crime, and then the police can request the ID (as in the case you quote -- sadly it is getting too easy for the police), but casino security has no right to any information about you whatsoever, in any context. And, they can only detain you if you are suspected of committing a crime, and card counting is not a crime. There have been several large lawsuits brought against casinos for detaining counters. I doubt any casino would take the chance of that bad publicity again just because you are counting cards. They might be idiots, but when it comes to money, they're not stupid.
--Mayor
Mayor's right and further more...
Posted by Learning to count on 11-Jul-2004 11:18:18 (#9210)
"...where the justices ruled that a cop has a right to see your id."
The cops have to have a suspicion that you have committed a crime, that you are about to commit a crime, or you are committing a crime. For example A cop is driving down a dark street in an expensive nighborhood and a person dressed in black is standing behind a mail box in the shadows. The cop has the right to stop and investigate and ask for Identification. This with other info may stop the suspicion the cop has about the person. We counters need to be educated about our rights. We also have to know how to handle ourselves when we are approached by casino a$$holes. A lot of counters I know are aggressive and want to fight. Keep calm, no big arm movements, and walk fast. Rememeber the security training program for the casino bullies is learned in the weightroom. You will lose if you try and be aggressive. Your brain and your ability to communicate is your best weapon. Counting is like skindiving use the buddy system. Remember your carrying lots of cash and you are a target for the casino goons and thieves. Try and have a trusted counter friend with you. I travel with close freinds and family. MHO LTC
Fighting security guards
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Jul-2004 11:40:22 (#9212)
Weightroom? The uniformed security guards I've seen have all looked like goofball college kids or senior citizens. Maybe they have other guys in the back who are physically formidable, I don't know, but I can't remember seeing a security guard in a casino that I would guess could beat me in a fight.
But that doesn't mean I am planning on fighting! I'll cuss and pitch a fit as part of my act and they'll never be sure whether I'm a counter or just an enraged ploppy. I try to imagine what a drunken, crude businessman who wasn't a counter but having a good winning streak would do if he was told to leave, and I do that. But you're right, using your hands in an 86 situation is just a stupid thing to do. You can count on jail time if you do that. We're there to make money, not prove a point.
The only time I would fight is if I thought they were really going to injure me, or forcibly backroom me. Remember that there are many security guards who wanted to be cops but couldn't pass the psychological tests and also a few who were fired from the police department for being bad guys, so if a guard starts clubbing me or dragging me I'm going to think the guy is a renegade or having some kind of psychiatric episode, and I'm going to fight for my life. If they're going to injure or kill me, they're going to have to do it under the cameras and in front of witnesses.
The benefit of good genes
Posted by The Mayor on 11-Jul-2004 11:46:41 (#9213)
>but I can't remember seeing a security guard in a casino that I would guess could beat me in a fight.
I can't remember seeing a wet paper bag that I could beat in a fight.
But they can make things up
Posted by Sohrab on 12-Jul-2004 00:19:09 (#9229)
and say you were cheating, as they have done to some people. I am not so sure a lawsuit danger stops the casino. They think the average counter takes $20,000 per year from them (I have heard this figure) they can afford one lawsuit if they think it scares 10 counters away.
Interesting
Posted by Learning to count on 12-Jul-2004 08:55:28 (#9235)
Every case I have seen the evidence has been on the casino security tapes. When this evidence was presented the judge saw the lies. 90% of the casino is under video survelliance so make sure that the tape shows you as a non combative victim and not a loud mouth "I have my rights"; "if you touch me I will fight: idiot. Anyway back rooming is rare. Most of the time they just tell you to leave. SO everyone can calm down now. Go play and take thier money!
Not In This Case
Posted by Cardcounter P.D. on 12-Jul-2004 11:19:41 (#9239)
The Mayor is correct. If casino personnell have a reasonable suspicion that you may have committed a felony then they may detain you pending arrival of any police authority. You do not have to present identification to casino personnell. Simply inform the casino security personnell that if they suspect you may have committed a felony, you will be more than happy to await the arrival of the police. Then, you are required to surrender identification to the police only. Take it from a friend inside, when I'm not counting, I earn my living as a full time peace officer. The Mayor's advice, legal as well as mathematical, can be counted on.
So what you are telling me...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Jul-2004 00:33:59 (#9204)
... is that you are now banned from Caesar's properties.
"Render unto Caesar what belongeth to Caesar..."
The problem seems to be centered around your player's card. This is exactly the outfit that booted me from the table last week claiming that I was a self-barred player. You sound like a good candidate for fake playing ID's.
Be careful out there. Remember that an average card counter is more intelligent than the smartest person working on a casino floor, and for the same reason that the smart kids get picked on in school, they have a certain resentment towards us. See if it were me in your situation, surrounded by security guards, I would have put my cheques in my pocket, cursed a blue streak at them, and walked right out the door. That works best in a venue that accepts foreign chip, just play them someplace else. But not all at once- last week I tried to exchange about $1K in foreign chip and they called the store that issued them. If this happens to you your rep as a counter might follow you around via that phone call.
Think of it this way- the worst that can happen to you in these situations is not all that bad.
We'll see...
Posted by John on 11-Jul-2004 01:19:14 (#9205)
I got another trip planned next week. It is going to be my biggest ever. I am going to try to take more from these guys than I ever have and then take a 2 - 3 month break. Hopefully, I will be able to play blackjack.
Automatic,
I don't react that way to those situations. Not sure why. To me, it is probably was of more damage to the Casinos by being "the nice guy". You see, when I sat down and got a blackjack on a 6 unit green. The guys were rooting me on and they liked me. That is usually the way it is. Security comes in, they have already established me in their minds as a decent fellow, and they don't understand why I am being escorted out. I didn't plan to be peaceful or anything but that is just my nature. How many of those ploppies do you think were making 6 unit green bets after I left ?
I think security wanted to really piss me off so I would retaliate by screaming and arguing. Then they can say, "See, this guy is a real menace. We had to escort him out for being so violent."
What did the pit bosses have to say was the reason for escorting me out? I was being cordial to everyone: security, ploppies, pit bosses. I flat out asked security what was wrong and he had no answer for me. The ploppies heard me ask this. I think they may have lost more than I took on that day. They lost probably 15 - 20 customers in my opinion and maybe more because those customers will tell others. Ploppies may think, "Last time I was there. There was a major security problem. I never had a problem at such and such place." and so they decide to go there instead.
Mistakes from inexperience
Posted by LVBear584 on 11-Jul-2004 04:11:56 (#9206)
Others have already pointed out the big mstake of giving in to casino guards' demands for ID. Just say NO, politely but firmly. Do NOT go to the cage, head directly for the exit.
Oh yeah, I was backed off last week, too at a place near where I was trespassed. I wasn't trespassed then but there was a long conversation between me and the PB.
Don't have a long conversation with a pit boss when you are being backed off. There is nothing to gain by talking with them at that point. Simply take your chips and leave.
Hassles from casino personnel become routine after a while. Learn from this, and move on. You are now better prepared for the next confrontation.
You are ALL Wrong!.....JUST HAVE A SEIZURE!
Posted by phantom007 on 11-Jul-2004 18:50:07 (#9222)
To date, I have been flushed "out of the pocket" many times, Flat Bet once, and AGBBJ (any game but BJ) once. This listing does NOT include the multiple survelience's and Dealer-Switches....since I tip, Dealers usually TELL ME when the table is under survelience.
How do they know? At least in Tunica, my primary haunt, the Dealer's and Survellience personel share the SAME breakroom! On numerous occasions, "my" Dealer has left for his/her break, then came back and said to me in a low voice "survellience", or just simply shuffled every round, and in both cases, I just raise and lower my bet in random fashion.
However, WHEN SURROUNDED by Security Personnel, my plan is to "JUST HAVE A SEIZURE". Roll in the floor, piss in my pants, bite my tongue, etc. If they deny me ambulance/medical care, +MT's (Mega-Torts)...my insurance will pay for the ambulance and ER visit...and HOPEFULLY, I will break something when I fall.
GRIN!
phantom007.
Or just run
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Jul-2004 22:09:10 (#9224)
If I'm ever surrounded by security in a casino, I'm just going to start jogging for the door. Either they're going to let me go, or a dozen of them are going to jump me and that's going to make a scene that nobody's going to forget. Then I lay on the floor and call a lawyer. Odds are good there will be one in the casino.
Automatic
Posted by John on 12-Jul-2004 01:43:47 (#9231)
I would love to play bj with you. You sound like a blast. I might take your suggestion and make a run for it. I'm not sure they could catch me. I used to play football, too. I am about 220 pounds but can run fast because I used to play Track as well. I was also running back on offense and on defense was linebacker for the football team. I had to stop because I got injured. I know how to hit someone to move right through them, though. I had a cousin when I was younger who was 50 pounds heavier and a few years older that said I couldn't tackle him, and I proved him wrong.
Automatic, what do I do with my chips if I make a run for it? Do I come back in a few days or get a family member to go in for me? I usually go alone on these trips and they are usually a few hours drive away.
Call a lawyer
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Jul-2004 03:43:05 (#9234)
If was in a situation where I had to flee for my own safety from a casino, my first call when I got away from the place would be to an attorney. Alarming and threatening you to the point where you run is a tort in itself. This is serious stuff; when something like that happens in a legitimate establishment these days chances are somebody was violating company policy and his training and is probably mentally unstable.
If that's the case, the last thing you want to do is ever go back to that casino, especially if you have a potential lawsuit. Being seen in there after you have this experience would ruin your case. You'll have to send somebody else in with the cheques if you can't play them at some other place in town.
In terms of self-defense, I'm about halfway between a linebacker and an offensive linesman, not fast enough to outrun anyone but I'm pretty good with my hands. However the last thing I'd ever want to do is get into a fight in a casino. Because I'll just end up in court with the guy I threw into the slot machines, and the prosecutor will stand us next to one another and ask the jury if they think what I did was sporting. So I'd be happy to just start a slow jog to the door. Chances are no one would volunteer to try to stop me but if they do it will create a scene few will forget. Then I take my dive and collect my big payout.
You might want to consider calling an ambulance chaser in the state where this happened. Tell him you were frightened and humiliated in a casino where you play often and you want to know what your options are. He'll tell you how to prepare and how to protect yourself if something like this ever happens again.
HaHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Posted by Learning to count on 12-Jul-2004 08:58:46 (#9236)
I can see the phantom siezing and sh!tt!ng his pants!!! The guards blowing chow. The ambulance crews....hahahahah!
From your post on 6/24/04
Posted by MrPill on 13-Jul-2004 12:16:44 (#9277)
"I could spread 1 - 30 on the double deck and get away with it and on the 6 deck, too."
I guess it caught up with you? Were you still using these kinds of wild spreads?
Pill
Actually No
Posted by John on 14-Jul-2004 00:55:40 (#9295)
That is the strange thing about it. My bet never got over 6 units. If you knew you could get away with a spread of 1 - 30 on DD would you not do it ? I was planning on a spread similar to that, though.
Wow, you have quite a memory.
So do the Casino's......
Posted by MrPill on 14-Jul-2004 22:27:03 (#9315)
.....have quite a memory! :)
Pill
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