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Blackjack Apprenticeship Messages: Page 42

Threads 1231 to 1260

DMV records
Posted by shaggy18vw on 10-Jul-2004 23:58:33 (#9200)

Is anybody familiar with getting a legitimate Driver's license from another state? Do I have to turn in my current license? If I tell the new state I lost my old one, will they still give me one? If I try to use the old one in the old state after that, will it show up as being lost/replaced? Basically, do states communicate with each other in these matters. Will New Jersey tell Connecticut that I lost my Connecticut lisence? Or, is it possible or legal to have licenses from multiple states?

Thanks in advance

Funny you mention that
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Jul-2004 11:22:06 (#9211)

I got a new license when I moved from NJ to CT because I didn't want my NJ record following me. What you need are sufficient ID plus a birth certificate.

First, I got a CT non-driver's ID. It's what they give to blind people and those with epilepsy and others who do not or cannot drive, and by law they have to accept it anywhere they'd accept a driver's license. It's surprisingly easy to get, and if all you are looking for is some ID for playing BJ, this will do the trick. Now to get a license from that point, all you need to do is submit your non-drivers ID, a birth certificate, and take the written and practical driving tests.

the issue is termed reciprocity.
Posted by gehrig on 11-Jul-2004 14:21:30 (#9215)

some states share dmv records, but not all. in my experience, an application for a driver's license by a "new" resident, one who obviously has driven before, requires the applicant to state that he/she holds no other driver's license. or, on application, the earlier license is surrendered. same as with a motor vehicle title, once a "new" state's title is issued, the earlier title is "canceled" and physically sent back to the issuing state.

perhaps there is a web housed list of those state's which automatically share dmv (have reprocity) with certain others.

the folly of youth prevented me from obtaining a non-expiring license when i was employed in hawaii.

Very good
Posted by shaggy18vw on 13-Jul-2004 09:44:08 (#9265)

Thank you gehrig, that is a good bit of information. I will look into that path.

Posted by ladykiller on 11-Jul-2004 15:47:55 (#9217)

The only question I might raise is if you're trying to use this new ID at a casino where you already have heat from using your current ID, then this new ID won't work too long. Eventhough most casinos keep track of their players through their driver's licensce id numbers, I've had a couple bad experiences where I used my same name on a new ID that I already got heat from with my original one. I'm not sure if it was when I threw it down, and the name matched up with the PC's computer, or if it was when I was getting a comp through a host or VIP. If anyone else has info on this subject, I'd love to hear it.

Twice Baked name?
Posted by TwuntyWun on 11-Jul-2004 22:12:02 (#9225)

"...I've had a couple bad experiences where I used my same name on a new ID that I already got heat from with my original one. I'm not sure if it was when I threw it down, and the name matched up with the PC's computer,..."

I'm confused-- You knew your name was hot and yet you got a new ID in the same name? And then gave it to the very same casino? Were you surprised when the oven got turned on with the second ID? What am I missing here?


Not hot name, just want a change of location *NM*
Posted by shaggy18vw on 13-Jul-2004 09:44:49 (#9266)

Posted by shaggy18vw on 11-Jul-2004 17:14:08 (#9219)

So it sounds like I could get an out of state ID just by applying for it in person. I don't have to turn in my current Drivers license.

Posted by eyesfor21 on 11-Jul-2004 17:58:13 (#9220)

Car scam trail totals $2 million
Disguises and charm used in con across 15 states

Interesting Article, but more extreme than my intentions *NM*
Posted by shaggy18vw on 13-Jul-2004 09:41:21 (#9264)

Ask for a duplicate from the first state...
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Jul-2004 11:32:36 (#9240)

... then turn in the original to the second state. zg

Posted by shaggy18vw on 13-Jul-2004 09:49:32 (#9267)

zg, that was my first thought. I would get a duplicate from my home state and take the original to the new state and get one from there. My only concern was what gehrig brought up with the "reciprocity". Would state number 2 tell state number 1 that I got the new license.

I suppose I could go to #2 and get the license by trading in the license from #1. A few months later get a duplicate of #2. Then take the duplicate back to #1 and get a new license from my home state.

At the end of the day, I will have a legitimate I.D. from my residence state and a legitimate, however expired I.D. from a second state. That is the goal.

keeping vount while distracted
Posted by creatureman on 11-Jul-2004 00:06:28 (#9203)

I was wondering if any of you vets have any tips for keeping the count while some one is talking like other players, bored pit boss, or a cute cocktail waitress my personal weakness, hehehe. I also sometimes have to count my hand in my head especially if its a multiple card soft hand.In practice i sometimes lose the count. Im sure pratice is the key here, but i was just looking for some ideas. thanx

It's all about how you practice.
Posted by HiNoon on 11-Jul-2004 14:45:32 (#9216)

If you approach learning to count like you approach academics, then you're going to have a hard time applying your newly learned skills in a real-world setting.

Once you've got the basics of your count under control (meaning, you understand them enough to practice without a book or chart), then it's pretty important to start practicing under non-ideal conditions. In a quiet, secluded living room you might be able to count down a deck in 11 seconds....but that really doesn't reflect your abilities because you'll never come across a game that has those serene conditions.

Start with the radio. Practice with the radio playing...try different channels...not just music you like. Can you keep accuracy with MegaDeth playing a little too loud? What about Celine Dion? Try it with talk radio...after you count down a deck, can you discuss the subject matter of the talk-show? Try arguing with the talk-radio host out loud while you count. Try counting with the radio on "search mode"...where the radio only sits on one channel for 3 or 4 seconds before flipping's really annoying, and it's hard to concentrate.

Do the same with TV. Then with TV and the radio. Build up your tolerance for external sensory overload.

I'm not a particularly "math" minded person...I think of counting like I think of card is like one letter. A combo reads like a word. Instead of "t" + "h" + "e", you get "the"... With practice you can "read" a series of hands like a sentence. By doing that, you use less time and energy, and can then seem a lot more "normal" at the table.

Try practicing counting in unorthodox on the bus or metro...keep a solid count, but don't miss your stop!

Basically, shake it up a little, and understand that practicing under ideal conditions will not give you an accurate idea of your in-casino abilities.

Agree with HiNoon, and Suggest....
Posted by phantom007 on 11-Jul-2004 18:15:21 (#9221)

1. Try practicing while your spouse, girl/boy-friend, or in my case, "soon to be ex-spouse" rambles on and on. With practice, you will find that you can keep both accurate counts and side-counts, while all-the-while, making the person talking to you think that you are listening and responding to each and every word. Some examples, as based on my typical "system":

"YES DEAR, YOU ARE RIGHT"...spoken only when TC is +6 or higher. Guarantees a several minute sermon educating you on why SHE is right! During which time, you keep counting and shuffling.

"YES DEAR, YOU ARE PROBABLY RIGHT"...TC +3-+5. Again, several minute sermon that SHE IS RIGHT! Count, count, count, shuffle, count.

"TELL ME YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS" reserved for Neutral Cts, -3 to +3, wherein you BOTH will spend most of your time.

"IF YOU THINK THAT, YOU ARE F#CK'N CRAZY"...say this automatically in neg. cts. Gets one lots of Practice Time, providing the recipient is Non-Violent.

2. PRACTICE AT WORK! +EV from the start. Co-workers will interrupt you and ask questions...answer same, JUST KEEP THE COUNT! Can even work to your advantage...recently I received a complaint about a Psychiatrist. Patient alleged that HE WENT TO SLEEP DURING HER SESSION! Just would NOT have happened if he was CC'ing! Hell, he could have told the patient that he was trying to adjust her treatment "BY THE CARDS". She would have loved it, and he could have billed her insurance for it...more +EV!

3. HOW BIG IS YOUR D.I.C.K.? "Deck Incremented Count Kronometer". Everybody brags about how LITTLE their D.I.C.K. is in BJ...."I can Count a Deck in 11 seconds" is a common post. Just NOT OPERANT in the Real World. Yes, strive to count WITHOUT INTERRUPTION in 11 or whatever seconds...even if you have a ONE-Minute D.I.C.K., you will do just fine in the real world, at least as for the game of BJ. All else being equal, I would BACK-BET a slow but accurate D.I.C.K. every time, if my other choice was a quick but SLOPPY D.I.C.K.!

4. COUNTING BY INFERENCE, as related to being Interrupted, is a skill to work on. For example, if PC starts showing you pictures of kids, grandkids, Cleveland vacation, etc., you MUST pay at least cursory attention. If a player shows a 2-up, and draws a Face, and busts, you can safely INFER that there was a 10 "down-below" even if you did not see it.

5. WHEN TOTALLY INTERRUPTED, as often happens when Waitresses' breast(s) slip up AND out of those "Tight Little Holders", just revert to B.S., and if unsure, just make the Minimum Bet, until either you have regained the Ct., the Shuffle, or when She has "RECOVERED", i.e., Stuffed Those Nice Big Breasts back into those Little Cups.

6. AND IF YOU ARE STILL DISTRACTED BY CLEAVAGE, try the Rio in LV! I have read posts to the effect that they are an EOE (Equal Opportunity Employer). One no longer has to worry about breasts as a distraction...but if you drop a "barney" on the floor......



lol thanks phantom
Posted by creatureman on 11-Jul-2004 20:11:33 (#9223)

I practice with my kids bothering me all the time. Ill think will not take your advice on the spouse practice

I nominate this for 'The Best Posts'! *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Jul-2004 22:16:31 (#9227)

Posted by Virgin Counter on 12-Jul-2004 00:02:00 (#9228)

It takes practice thats all I can say. I just had my first successful countdown of 6 deck shoes using KO at Agua Caliente Casino in Rancho Mirage. The first three shoes I got distracted, lost the count and had to play out each shoe with basic strategy. I got in the swing of it for the next three shoes. I ended up winning on two of the shoes and losing on one for net gain of $200. I got used to the surroundings, relaxed, and was able to concentrate. I practice counting down 6 decks on the computer all the time, but nothing beats actual combat conditions. Good luck. VC.

Mini Trip Report -- Agua Caliente Casino
Posted by Virgin Counter on 12-Jul-2004 00:20:55 (#9230)

About a week ago I played for a few hours at Agua Caliente Casino in Rancho Mirage, CA. I noted the following conditions:

$5 min, 6 deck, CSM.
$10 min, 6 deck shoe, dealt down to one deck remaining.
$25 min, 2 deck, pitch game, 60%-65% pen.
All games were 3/2 payout on a 21.

I played the 6 deck $10 game using KO. Won $200 -- I was very lucky due a small bankroll and small spread.

The ploppy factor was insane. I saw a guy hit hard 17 against a dealer 10 two different times -- he busted both times. Another guy stood on a soft 17 v. a dealer 6. A lady next to me split 2's against a dealer 10 and then busted both hands with 10's when she had to hit 12's. I could go on and on...

I am curious what the board thinks of this place. Does the 2 deck ever get down to $10? I was there on a Sat. afternoon. Thanks.

I Hit Hard 17 Against Dealer 10 Too!
Posted by SammyBoy on 12-Jul-2004 10:42:23 (#9238)

Of course I only do this when I see the dealers hole card. It happened a few weeks ago and I drew a 3 and pushed the dealers 20. The dealer realized I saw his hole card and didn't say a word, he picked up the cards rather quickly.

I was wondering
Posted by ladykiller on 14-Jul-2004 16:24:25 (#9304)

if they offer surrender too. I thought they had table fees as well. Did they get rid of those?

compare count strategies
Posted by apccounter on 12-Jul-2004 02:38:35 (#9232)

Hello all,

I have a question for some of you more experienced players. Basically, I have successfully learned and used the Revere Advanced Point Count strategy for several years - though I play only once/twice a year and I usually need a couple weeks of practice before I am up to par. I have read a number of posts and have seen the following general statement made in one form or another a number of times:

Revere's strategy is the most accurate but he overestimated its advantage and the difference between it and the next best strategy (which is much easier to learn) is minimal.

My questions:

1. Is this true?

2. If so, what is the difference in terms of strengths of the strategys (in terms of dollars per hour perhaps)?

3. What is the proposed easier strategy? I seem to recall it is some version of plus-minus but I also seem to recall that there are several versions of plus-minus out there - one of which is in Revere's book.

Basically, I am looking to invest myself in a different strategy (if it is basically gonna give me the same results) that may require less revision each time I go out playing.

Thanks for your advice,

"Revere's strategy"
Posted by id on 12-Jul-2004 09:01:48 (#9237)

Which one?

He had (and his relatives still did as of a while ago) sell four privately, as well as the four in his book.

Quick Question on Bonus Strategy?
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Jul-2004 15:18:41 (#9242)

The Plaza has a Bonus Offer -

Buy in for $5000 and receive $5500 in "PLAY ONLY" chips. Can be played at craps or baccarrat ONLY.

What is the best (safest) way to solo play the full $5500? zg

Is this over
Posted by Dr. Org on 21-Sep-2004 23:16:57 (#10233)

word on the street is that this is over. is that true or does the street lie?

Yes its over *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 23-Sep-2004 00:52:48 (#10244)

play both the pass and don't pass line *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 12-Jul-2004 15:24:11 (#9243)

Clarification - *LINK*
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Jul-2004 15:46:44 (#9244)

Playing both pass/don't or player/bank is not doable because they can discontinue the play and take the bonus away. Must play only one side.

How safe (RoR) would it be to bet $100 per decision? How about $50 per? zg

Posted by SammyBoy on 12-Jul-2004 16:05:21 (#9245)

How many times do you need to wager the $5500? I would probably bet a small amount on the pass line and then play max odds if I could get 10x odds or better.

Max odds available are... *LINK*
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Jul-2004 16:25:41 (#9246)

... 3x. zg

Safest way to play it
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Jul-2004 16:39:30 (#9248)

The safest way would be in the smallest increments possible. Any regular bet. Usually I'd rather Come, but sometimes it's more satisfying when you Don't Come and let somebody else do it. Every time you win, you have to pull the live chip back and replay the non-cashable one. Using this method, as your betting increment approaches zero, your return should approach EV, which I recall is around 99% for that game. Not bad for a 10% bonus.

The other matter is that as your betting unit approaches zero, your time spent playing your bonus chips will approach infinity! So you have to calculate: the value of your time, the expected length of a hand of craps, and how much additional risk you are willing to accept in exchange for finishing this mission quicker and going to do something else. That's your homework assignment, don't ask me to grade it, it's been forever since I've done that stuff!

Just give me a quick ...
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Jul-2004 16:42:45 (#9249)

... RoR assesment with $100 and $50 size bets, please. zg

RoR near zero
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Jul-2004 18:11:18 (#9250)

The RoR for either is near zero because you would have to lose every bet in order to be ruined. You only have to play through the chips once, right? Your expectation should be about the same as playing 50 to 100 hands of BJ in a crappy shoe game. I'd find a fast, uncrowded table and play the $50 increments if it was me.

I meant StdDv, not RoR! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Jul-2004 18:54:22 (#9253)

This is almost exactly like online bonus hustling
Posted by The Mayor on 12-Jul-2004 19:29:35 (#9254)

This is almost exactly like playing online bonuses with a certain play-through to get the bonus. I would defer to the online bonus experts for this type of information. I will ask a friend to check out this question and offer his opinion.


Get A Partner.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 13-Jul-2004 09:57:42 (#9270)

Play both sides Banker/Player at Bacc.
Partner has real money on Banker -- You use the play money on Player.

We rulled this out, too much scrutiny. *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 13-Jul-2004 11:12:14 (#9276)

From a trusted friend...
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Jul-2004 10:31:02 (#9273)

From a trusted friend...

This promo is more like a sticky bonus than a regular bonus. But the "bonus" remains in your "account" after you finish your "playthrough". BUT as I understand you have to keep playing at the table til you lose your bonus.

Lots of ways to play it and of course everybody has their own personal
(ill-defined) definition of "optimal" or "best" (case in point is zengrifter's best/safest goal). Some people will say hail marying the whole thing would be best EVwise, others will say going for a stop win is best. I guess I'll try and draw up a list of constraints and see what gets spat out.

bet size
(chosen game)

Personal Constraints/Info:
bankroll (number of times you can play the bonus) maximum global RoR acceptable minimum $/hr acceptable session time maximum (I can't imagine playing craps for more than a few hours at a time)

Casino Constraints/Info:
table limits
bonus %
bonus limits
(game edge)
(game variance)

Everybody is going to have different values for these (and most people will play differently than they state). I'd use the mobj_ror1.xls spreadsheet from

Total action you expect to have to give = (amount you have to
Expected loss = edge*Atotal
Profit = Bonus + ExpLoss
Profit/hr = (Profit/Rounds)*(Rounds/hr)...Rounds = Atot/Betsize RoR related to bankroll and betsize, use mobj_ror1.xls (normal distribution)

Using a game edge of -0.01, stddev of 1, promo of 5000/500, betsize 100, and 50 rounds/hr as an example:
Atotal = $10784
ExpLoss = -$107.84
Profit = +$392.16
Profit/hr = +$181.82
RoR for this promo (survival criterion)= zilch

gratzi! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 13-Jul-2004 11:11:09 (#9275)

game edge of -0.01, stddev of 1
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 13-Jul-2004 14:31:33 (#9282)

Sounds about as close to the don't come bet in craps as you can get.

Explaining this stuff to people
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Jul-2004 18:25:30 (#9251)

Last night I went to the casino with my girlfriend for mostly just entertainment and dining reasons. I also brought with me $1200 in ratholed greens for her to cash in for me. She likes to play the roulette, so I told her to sit there for an hour, play my chips on the outside, enjoy the free drinks and don't worry about winning or losing. Meanwhile I played BJ for an hour and waited for her to cash in.

Well she handled every part well except for the not worrying about winning or losing. Down $50 playing roulette for an hour. A small price for me to pay to hide $1200 in BJ winnings, but she was not happy about it. I told her it was better than what I expected to happen, and it's just part of my cost of doing business, just like any other business, but she wouldn't have any of it, still upset about "losing". I was up $250 in my hour, but all she thought about was "losing". Aaaargh! This part is frustrating!

instead of the wheel game...
Posted by gehrig on 12-Jul-2004 20:14:45 (#9255)

plant her in front of some "99%" return, 3 reel slot, using *your* player's card.

the 3 reeler is at least as amusing as the wheel game, the drink service is likely equal, she could control the tempo/speed of the game, and most importantly, your player profile can be bulked up with "good" play. might even get a room or at least a coffee shop comp for two. 25 cent, three reelers will outperform, vis a vis comps, $25 21 play.

the slot doesn't know (yet), if the player matches the card holder, while the wheel game supervisor surely will.

a common response
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 13-Jul-2004 01:44:43 (#9262)

The strange thing is, I've run into people with degrees in math and accounting, real pros who are certainly not otherwise stupid, who will not listen to me when I tell them not to play slot machines. I found a career accountant who uses a progression system. I'll still get the "entertainment value" argument from most.

A co-worker who has degrees in math and computer science, with whom I thought I had explained cardcounting in depth, agrees with another co-worker who says: "Playing blackjack is OK as long as you don't do it too much".

I refresh the browser ten times in a day on Bj21 because I am awaiting a response on a messageboard. Grand total of wasted time in the day??...3 or 4 seconds. I get a call from the CEO of my company stating that the client is concerned about my going to "all those gambling websites". I try explaining that I am not a gambler, but quite the opposite and...

My family, although not critical, is yet another story. To them, going to that ripoff slot joint, run by the lottery comission, is exactly the same as what I do. There will never be enough wind in my lungs to explain differently.

What to do...What to do...??


Use a Web Proxy So They Can't See The Sites You Visit. *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 13-Jul-2004 09:55:17 (#9268)

What to do
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 13-Jul-2004 09:55:49 (#9269)

Keep your mouth shut, stay off the gambling sites while at work, and continue to stuff the money in your pockets.

Advice Taken.
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 13-Jul-2004 10:33:07 (#9274)

I guess we are not in this to be understood, now are we?!

You should see my dining room table
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 13-Jul-2004 14:29:03 (#9281)

Bought a real nice antique wooden table and china cabinet last week. Solid Oak, perfect condition. Got a real good deal on it, but it was still big $$$ because of the quality.

Significent others understand where the money came from to pay for this (and all the other finer things in life) and that's all that counts.

Co-workers, in-laws/out-laws, nosey neighbors, etc. opinions really don't matter.

I feel for you
Posted by shaggy18vw on 13-Jul-2004 10:00:17 (#9271)

I have explaied the game to co-workers before with the same results. However my wife knows the score. Even the other day, I was complaining about my day job... mentioning that I would like to further my education. She said "could you get student loans and you can play BJ on the side while you go to school". What a gal. Unfortunately it sounds a little too risky to me.

Your a Lucky Man...
Posted by Hal Jordan on 13-Jul-2004 18:36:15 (#9287)

my wife is the same way. The rest of the family is a different story, but the wife is most important anyway.



Potential for heat
Posted by Virgin Counter on 12-Jul-2004 20:32:13 (#9257)

OK, I am planning trip to Vegas midweek for 2-3 days. My goal is play 6 deck shoes using KO preferred with a 1-10 spread. I hope to play the lower level tables with a spread of $3-30 or $5-50 at places such as the IP, Plaza, Excalibur, etc.

Win or lose, what is the potential for heat at the 6 deckers with my level of play? Do the bosses watch the 6 deckers closely? Would my bet spread movement be an obvious clue that I am counting down the 6 decks?

I want to enjoy myself and have a good time, not worry about getting kicked out or get sweated out by some boss. Any perspective on this issue would be appreciated. Thanks.

What's Wong-out point for KO, 6D?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Jul-2004 22:07:57 (#9258)

Hey do you know how to Wong out? It's the best way to make money on a shoe. You just leave when the count goes bad, go to the next table or the next casino. This protects you from some heat too because you're always moving around. I don't know how to Wong out with unbalanced counts but I'm sure somebody here can help you with the math details.

Re: KO Wong-out
Posted by CanKen on 13-Jul-2004 19:27:31 (#9289)

Almost any question I have seen posted about using KO is answered in the
book by Vancura and Fuchs. It is inexpensive, (about $12.50 US, Amazon), and certainly very good value for anyone intending to use the system.
It is well written and includes Kelly-based proportional betting progressions and strategy indices for 1,2,6,8 decks.
Exit strategy, (wong-out), values for 6 and 8 decks are given in Chapter 8, "Enhancing Profits". The authors say "The proper use of an exit strategy will nearly double your win-rate per hand."
While "wonging-in" may often not be practical, I would say that judicious use of an exit strategy is a necessity for playing 6 or 8 decks.

No way
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 12-Jul-2004 22:11:47 (#9259)

First off, If you are only going 1-10 make sure you wong out the negatives. -1 is best, but for sure by -2.

I will eat a fried egg off the floor of the Gold Spike if you get any attention playing silver and red 1-10 in a shoe game. I just plain wouldn't worry one tiny bit.

Also, hit McGerald's while you are downtown. They have a good shoe game in line with your criterion. 6-decks $3 minimum, dealt down to about 1 deck.

Why not single-deckers??


Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 13-Jul-2004 00:12:44 (#9260)

Didn't notice you are using KO. But find out when to properly Wong and then do it!


exit strat KO says
Posted by creatureman on 13-Jul-2004 13:13:32 (#9279)

exit at -22 with 1d in the tray. -17 2 deck. -12 3d in the tray. this is useing -20 as a irc.

Single Deck quest.
Posted by Virgin Counter on 13-Jul-2004 19:55:49 (#9290)

I may play a few single deckers here and there. Mostly I want to work on the countdown on the 6 deck game which I find challenging -- especially living in Southern CA where it's mostly the 6 deckers at the IJ's (Injin Joints).

You might want a different count
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Jul-2004 08:58:42 (#9298)

Although KO has some pretty good parameters for shoe games, you might find it unsatisfactory for single deck. The nice high BC of KO is very helpful when you are playing the huge spreads that you use in shoe, but in SD you won't be able to get away with spreading that much, so PE becomes more important, which is why most SD players use HO2 or APC or something like that.

What do you do about face down cards?
Posted by John on 21-Jul-2004 14:52:05 (#9417)

I've been thinking about attacking a single deck game. I've already been hitting double deck. I just wondered what you do about the face down cards or do you try to play heads up? Also, Automatic, there aren't any double or single deck around your location is there ? I checked and didn't see much.

Ace side count for Hi-LO?
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 13-Jul-2004 08:14:54 (#9263)

I have been practicing an Ace side count, using Hi-LO 18I 6D. At first, I practiced it, just to see if I can do it. I am able to it now, with out that much extra effort. My question is... what can I do with this inforamtion? Is it advantagous to me using HI-LO? There was referance to factoring it into the TC in an earlier thread, but I think that was using another counting method.



The first thing you can do
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-Jul-2004 12:37:18 (#9278)

... is use it to adjust your insurance count. It's been a while since I've used High-Low so I forgot exactly how to do it but sit down with the numbers and you should be able to figure it out quick enough.

There are a few playing indexes you can modify with it too. DD 10 vs. X is the first one that comes to mind. But the insurance count should be the most powerful use of the Ace sidecount with High-Low.

As AutoMonk's reply indicates...
Posted by zengrifter on 13-Jul-2004 13:40:43 (#9280)

... its NOT to be used for bet-adjust. And, the gain from this extra effort is negligible. zg

Posted by ladykiller on 13-Jul-2004 21:54:03 (#9292)

you can learn to use this for keeping track of the aces as they're shuffled. Learning to steer them can be very advantageous if you're able to learn how.

Improves PE and IC
Posted by Slagwater on 10-Aug-2004 20:49:44 (#9704)

Hi/Lo has both a mediocre PE and IC since, for playing and insurance purposes, the ace should not be counted as negative.

If you adjust the TC by adding 1.5 for each excess ace played you'll effectively be counting the ace as +0.5 for playing purposes and then PE rises from .511 to a respectable .614.

If you adjust the IC by adding 2 for each excess ace played (1.5 is almost as good) you'll effectively be counting the ace as +1 for insurance purposes and IC rises from .760 to .891.

Is this worth the extra effort? That is your decision, but I will point out that if you are tired in a shoe game you can simply stop making the ace side count and not hurt your BC. It also won't hurt you to learn how to keep and use an ace side count if you wish to switch to a stronger system like HO2 or Omega2 which require an ace side count for betting.


Barring No Longer Limited to Casinos
Posted by djm on 13-Jul-2004 16:28:55 (#9283)

For an interesting article, go to

If the link doesn't work, do a Yahoo! search for "best buy demon customers"

To those who are not pros
Posted by Royam on 13-Jul-2004 17:06:31 (#9284)

I assume you have a job and that BJ is played during your free time.

How do your significant others react? Is it not too much of a social life killer?


I'm happily divorced!
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Jul-2004 17:36:47 (#9285)

They complained and accused. If you can get them involved then you will not have a problem. The more educated she or he is the better for you. Then at least you can educate them to what is going on. If they are dummies and greedy then you have a problem. They think you are gambling away thier money. Good luck LTC

Posted by Hal Jordan on 13-Jul-2004 18:32:19 (#9286)

What I have found is that only those who understand the game stand any chance of appreciating what we do. Teach your loved one how to play, then they will have a greater appreciation for what you do. Most everyone I have met who I do not choose to teach the game to just sees it as a "lucky system." My wife understands because she was open to learning, but definitley not mastering, the game. I think another thing that helps is the passing of time. The more time passes, the more money you will make. It is hard to say it is luck after a few years of consistent money making.

My biggest suggestion to you is to make sure to keep your money separate if you are playing as a hobby. There shouldn't be much of a problem if your hobby is to spend money on this investment, rather than somethng such as fishing. It may take a while to build a bankroll, but knowing that the money (up or down) is part of a hobby, rather than stealing from the savings account is well worth it. If you play within your means and educate your significant other, this should be quite a fun hobby.


Thx LTC and Hal
Posted by Royam on 13-Jul-2004 18:42:47 (#9288)

She is educated (and probably smarter than me) but has no interest in BJ so far.

Rather than scarrying her off with counting systems and cover strategies, I was thinking of catching her interest just the way mine got caugth: by reading a novel like "Bringing Down the House".

Any suggestion?


Posted by shaggy18vw on 13-Jul-2004 21:30:24 (#9291)

Blackjack Autumn is good also.

Lucky me
Posted by Royam on 13-Jul-2004 22:06:35 (#9293)

I have purchased this book too (not read yet though) ;)

Thanks for the advice.


He understands the concept
Posted by Victoria on 14-Jul-2004 10:51:26 (#9300)

and could be a counter, but he does not like casinos or gambling.
The fact that he understands, that my bankroll came from money I had before we married, that variance has smiled more than frowned upon me and that I do not play that often has created no problems for us.
Being he is also an engineer, the idea of ever changing composition and how that changes advantage was easy to grasp.
He also knew upfront that I did this and that within my family casinos and counting exist. (great uncle was a table game manager in Cuba and an uncle tought me)
Guess that makes me lucky (positive variance), might be easier for the female members of this community.

Easier for female members...
Posted by TwuntyWun on 14-Jul-2004 19:46:34 (#9308)

I started getting interested in counting immediately after discovering that there was such a thing as "basic strategy." I started doing some research on the topic and trying to learn Hi-Lo. My concerned partner started asking *many* questions. At first I thought he was afraid that I was about to develop a gambling problem and was going to try to talk me out of it. Instead, he quickly saw how the math worked and was an almost immediate true-believer (while I was still a doubting Thomasina.) He started learning with me, and quickly outpaced me! It's a family thing now. I guess if our experience is representative, perhaps we do have it easier.


Drive Trains Too.
Posted by shaggy18vw on 14-Jul-2004 22:02:29 (#9312)

So Victoria, you drive trains... me too. What discipline? Not to delve too deeply into your personal life. But it seems everybody and their "sister" is an engineer. I'm an ME.

Posted by Victoria on 19-Jul-2004 12:48:32 (#9373)

Actually, civil and enviromental.

Beating the bad rep of gambling
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-Jul-2004 23:47:46 (#9294)

Unfortunately women talk to one another, and almost every woman knows another who has gotten screwed up by getting involved with a guy who gambles. Gambling RIGHTLY has a bad reputation among intelligent people.

However to understand and appreciate the difference between gambling and advantage play takes more than just an intelligent person. You need a desire for adventure, self-confidence, and a tolerance for taking advantageous and well-considered risks. As proved by the gender disparity here, this is mostly a male thing, and there isn't too much we can do about it.

But now here's one idea I have for convincing the ladies: how about introducing them to other members of our fraternity? The stereotype of the compulsive gambler is that of a loner, and self-deluded. Taking a significant other to something like a Green Chip party, or even an informal meeting at a buffet, where she will meet other guys much like you, who can talk openly among themselves about what they do in a scholarly and consistent way, may put her at ease. One thing about women is that they are fascinated by what their men do at work; they love to hear us "talk shop". And the clandestine yet squeaky-clean way in which we meet adds a flavor of adventure that she might even find enjoyable. Does this sounds like a good idea?

What helps a little...
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 14-Jul-2004 08:06:45 (#9296)

My wife doesn't appreciate my counting whole heatedly, but I'm finding that she is starting to get it.. well atleast a little bit.

Every other weekend or so, we have 2-3 couples over, and play blackjack. (6D S17,ds,ls,rsa BJpays2:1 table limits 25-1000)

We have been doing this since I have been counting, about a year and a half. We all take turns dealing a shoe, playing for fake money. All the other people who play don't count cards, but they know I'm practicing and they are fine with it. At anytime they can ask me what the count is, and I tell them. Needless to say I will never be at a casino with these folks because they would surely slip and ask me in front of a pit critter.

At first she had absolutely no respect for counting, thought it was fuzzy math, but recently, our weekend games have got competitive to a certain extent. And although she won't come out and admit there is true science to it, she is constantly changing her bet size to match mine.

True seeing is believing, and these mock games are helping me a little bit with proving to her that it is a profitable thing.

And oh yea, when I have a good trip, she's always like... so whathca buy me? Anybody else have this problem?

BJ no fun
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Jul-2004 09:06:06 (#9299)

Aw man, I don't think I could stand to play at home! After I've had a long session, I can't stand the sight of a BJ game. Give me bridge or something else.

One time I took a female friend to the table because she wanted to learn and play and maybe make a little money. What a mistake that was! I'm deep in my act (and I had explained to her about the act ahead of time), and she says loudly "You're not very good at playing dumb." Holy cats. After an hour or so, she misadds her hand, and the dealer turns to me and says "You ought to teach her how to count." Wise guy. Never again will I bring a muggle to the table, especially one with a mouth bigger than her butt.

have her watch the mit special tonight on history
Posted by eyesfor21 on 14-Jul-2004 11:59:29 (#9301)

then one can see what is possible and how it works.

Thanks for sharing experiences and giving tips
Posted by Royam on 14-Jul-2004 14:35:31 (#9303)

I'll make a melting-pot of it all and it should work.

Maybe she gets to count too... not sure it would be good though. Anybody here counting in couple or knowing such couple?


Counting Couple
Posted by Dog Hand on 14-Jul-2004 22:07:03 (#9313)


How about Dr. and Mrs. J, as described by Bryce Carlson in Blackjack for Blood? Very inspirational story!

Dog Hand

It's a Hobby!
Posted by MrPill on 14-Jul-2004 22:18:25 (#9314)

>I assume you have a job and that BJ is played during your free time.<

Yes I do work full time in a professional job. BJ is a hobby for me, but unlike most hobbies, like my wife's horses, it pays for itself!

>How do your significant others react? Is it not too much of a social life killer?<

My wife love's to play BJ also and is a very good BS player and plays half the time with me, although she does not count, yet!


Guest Essay
Posted by MrPill on 15-Jul-2004 15:10:47 (#9324)

Also, don't forget to read through the Mayor's wifes guest essay found under the guess essay's link on the main page, if you haven't already.


Mardi Gras + Cheeser's
Posted by Big Cowboy on 14-Jul-2004 08:33:09 (#9297)

The Mardi Gras Party will be purchasing Cheeser's in the near future. That can't be good. Check it out on All of this consolidation can't be good.

Posted by blackjackhack on 15-Jul-2004 20:25:29 (#9330)

This merger would really suck. Harrah's tends to offer the crappiest games in most of the markets where it competes. Caesar's tends to offer fairly average games - not the best, but not the worst.

Here's the Story
Posted by Big Cowboy on 16-Jul-2004 08:46:27 (#9332)

Cheeser's and the Flamingo Hilton have very nice games. Every Mardi Gross casino that I've been in has been more than a little lacking. I usually just walk right in and then right out. This merger will suck.,2933,125777,00.html

Seeking new beginning players/counters
Posted by Lars on 14-Jul-2004 17:05:22 (#9306)

Hi everyone,
I'm a novice player whose seeking beginning players/counters to learn BJ/counting with. I reside in the long island,NY area.. just looking for anyone to correspond with via email/IM's preferably females since to me it seems that females escape detection more then us guys in the casinos. But would love to correspond with all. I'm just looking to learn with others and maybe even form a small BJ team in the future if we get good enough. Nothing big like the MIT team. Just something small that we can build up with our own resources. I have a idea or 2 for a new style of team play though ive never tried it. But again im just a beginner who basically only knows BS but would like to master counting (i prefer the KO system) with others... I am also interested in learning poker (i pretty much know 7 stud and basics of hold em) as well as other beatable gambling games like video poker, sportsbetting, horseracing etc... i just would like to do it in a team format.. or learn from others... anyways let me know if you want to correspond.. my email address is ...


females, huh?
Posted by Cyrano on 14-Jul-2004 23:43:08 (#9319)

*grin* good pickup line... ;-)

preferably females since to me it seems that females escape detection more then us guys in the casinos

Posted by Lars on 15-Jul-2004 13:53:36 (#9323)

Not really a pick up line.. i just find that casino's underestimate females over males when it comes to detecting card counters... If im wrong im wrong <shrugs> but anyways i said anyone could email me if they would like m or f... i just want to learn card counting fluently with other beginning counters as well as other beatable gambling games... :-X

Keep your options open
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 15-Jul-2004 23:44:37 (#9331)

Don't pass up the opportunity to learn from a veteran pro. Beginners can often send you down the long and more difficult path and provide you with a false sense of security.

Best thing to do is
Posted by ladykiller on 16-Jul-2004 12:38:22 (#9336)

read as much as you can. Look up the best books on this website and read and study them. Try to really understand why each aspect is important. Make sure u can keep the count flawlessly (it just takes practice). And commmit your index tables to memory. After that, the real learning will begin which will mostly be gained through casino experience. You'll see what i mean.

not trying to pick up chicks lol
Posted by Lars on 17-Jul-2004 20:47:20 (#9346)

Seriously I'm not trying to pick up chicks. I just think my theory might be valid or at least someone should do a study. A study on who gets profiled, caught and banned most as a card counter based on gender, race, age, religion & hell maybe even sexual orientation... iv'e never seen anyone really discuss the posibility/topic that card counters might get profiled much like a black male is profiled by cops in NJ/NY/LA;Ca area etc. among other states perhaps. Anyways I guess im just assuming that perhaps that females are less likely to be profile/caught/banned as card counters then males.. anyways my offer stands for both m or f to email me. As for me reading books (the K-O book is my favorite by far) and such, believe me i have been for years now. Ive been playing BJ for like 5 years perhaps (i have many winning sessions and when i have losing sessions is when my greed kicks in but generally i have more winning then losing the other times i just break even). I have or had BS down cold (have to refresh my mind since i havent played since Dec/Jan in Costa Rica casino's)... Anyways at home im able to "count" a deck of cards using the K-O system in 30 seconds or less but when I go to a casino my mind just goes blank.. I always have things on my mind (personal problems in life etc.) other then BJ so my concentration isn't as good as it should be.. So i would say that concentration is my weakness not counting itself.. counting is easy its just having a clear mind while doing it at a casino.. anyways what is everyone's practice methods for either concentration or counting? ..

Lars, calm down, take your time and
Posted by Learning to count on 17-Jul-2004 15:18:07 (#9343)

learn how to play the game. Your jumping light years ahead of the stage your at. If you are looking for a chick well hang out in singles bars or try a dating service. If you hit Vegas try the central bar in the Miraage casino in the City of lost wages. There are a lot of hookers there and you can haggle with them.

Question to Zengrifter
Posted by Royam on 14-Jul-2004 19:26:15 (#9307)

Hi Zengrifter,

In your previous answer to my question regarding betting strategy, you directed me to a 12 spread if wonging (from 1 to 6-6 units), which is fine, but also a 48 spread if playing all (from 0.25 to 6-6 units). 48 seems pretty extreme and I don't know how I would get away with it without being backed off... does it mean that wonging is nearly required?


Posted by Cyrano on 14-Jul-2004 19:58:54 (#9309)

2 questions:

1) 6-6 units sounds a bit extreme. Do you mean 2 6-unit bets? or do you mean 6 6-unit bets (which is a spread of 1-36)?

2)How did you get a 0.25 unit bet? Is that the same as spreading from 1 unit to 6 8-unit bets?

Hi Zengrifter,

In your previous answer to my question regarding betting strategy, you directed me to a 12 spread if wonging (from 1 to 6-6 units), which is fine, but also a 48 spread if playing all (from 0.25 to 6-6 units). 48 seems pretty extreme and I don't know how I would get away with it without being backed off... does it mean that wonging is nearly required?


I think...
Posted by Royam on 14-Jul-2004 21:25:24 (#9311)

I understood it this way:

1) yes, 2 hands of 6 units each,

2) 0.25 was just based on a recommendation of a 600 units BR. I guess the idea behind such a low bet was to be able to play (without wonging out) and wait for a high count without getting broke.

2b) This is not the same as spreading from 1 unit to 6 hands of 8 units each, but rather spreading from 1 unit to 2 hands of 24 units. Although you have the same amount of units on the table (48), I guess you wouldn't want to play six hands (you're using too many cards and flushing your advantage down the toilet).


Not so
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Jul-2004 23:18:55 (#9316)

No way, playing 6 hands would be very nice if you could get away with it. 2 or at the most 3 is normally all they allow. Eating up cards when you have the advantage is a good thing to do as long as you're playing them- the more cards you play during the good count, the fewer the dealer and other players will be playing. Increasing and decreasing the number of hands is a form of Wonging. I always play two hands whenever possible to decrease the effects of variance.

You can make plenty of money with a 1-12 spread in a shoe game without Wonging, but Wonging really helps you, and you can get away with a lower spread if you Wong, especially if you Wong in. Wonging out is also very powerful. The only times you don't want to Wong out on bad counts are: when you are also shuffle tracking, and if the penetration at the table where you are playing is so much better than in the rest of the house that you will be losing more by losing pen than you would by playing a few hands at a bad count.

6 hands..
Posted by Cyrano on 14-Jul-2004 23:40:40 (#9318)

Atlantis in Reno lets you bet the whole table :-) as long as you bet a min of $10... per the dealer during a chat once.

You're right
Posted by Royam on 15-Jul-2004 10:23:26 (#9320)

I forgot that playing 6 hands helps you play more hands per card used by the dealer .

Thanks for correcting me.


One common misconception regarding spread calc...
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Jul-2004 15:16:08 (#9325)

... is that the spread is calc'd from the bottom up. It is NOT. Spread is calc'd from the top-bet down. Thus the 6-6 top-bet is the same -

min acceptable spreads

100 top
25 min

100 top
15 min

100 top
10 (wong)

100 top
5 min (play all) (i would use $2.00)

1-48 spread will NOT generate much heat w/ small stakes 6-8D. zg

Excellent point
Posted by Sonny on 15-Jul-2004 19:14:04 (#9328)

> One common misconception regarding spread calc is
> that the spread is calc'd from the bottom up. It
> is NOT. Spread is calc'd from the top-bet down.

I have heard quite a few novice counters saying things like "I play red chips, so for SD I can bet $5-$20 but to play 6D I need to bet $5-$60." That is probably the best way to go broke! As you said, a player should ALWAYS determine his top bet first then spread DOWN from there to avoid overbetting their bankroll.


Thanks for explanation, Zen Master Zen ;) *NM*
Posted by Royam on 15-Jul-2004 20:03:54 (#9329)

2 Rookie Questions on house edge
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 15-Jul-2004 13:02:32 (#9322)

1.) Lets say Casino A has a house edge of .26 with 2 decks cut off a 6D shoe(s17,ds,ls,rsa). Casino B also has a house edge of .26 but with 1 1/2 decks cut off. Asuming they have the same rules, casino B would be better, but does anyone know the equation(if any) to factor the penatration into the house edge?

2.) What would the house edge change to when counting? Using Hi-LO 18I, wonging out at -1.


House Edge
Posted by shaggy18vw on 15-Jul-2004 15:40:07 (#9326)

House edge is determined by the rules alone (# of decks are part of rules). The house edge is based on a freshly shuffled deck. As cards come out, the edge changes. Counting does not affect the house edge. Counting gives the player the ability to realize what the house edge (or player edge) is at any given moment. The edge is directly related to the count.

Your example of casino A and B would yield the same "house edge" because the rules are the same.

Penetration affects something called desirability. The only real way to determine a game's desirability is to run a simulation with all game parameters defined. Including aspects of your game (count system, indicies, bet patterns). You could run these sims all day changing only penetration, you will realize that the more penetration you get, the better the game (you already knew that).

So the long and short of it: If you have the opportunity to play at two casinos whose rules are the same, but one deals deeper, play at the casino that deals deeper. If you want to know how much you will earn per hour because of that penetration, you need to sim it.

A bad game with good pen...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Jul-2004 17:08:37 (#9327) a good game! Unless there is some really ridiculous rule, better pen will almost always make up for inferior rules. Rules are universal within a game but pen is not always which is great for a counter because you only need to find one table or dealer with good pen.

This is why I won't Wong out in a crowded place when I've found a table with much better than average pen. If the count gets bad early in the shoe, that's a good time to take a lammer. If it's bad late in the shoe, you can just play it out. And if you are shuffle tracking, any big count either high or low can be played to your advantage in the next shoe.

I see, thanks guys! *NM*
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 16-Jul-2004 08:54:28 (#9333)

Revised Interview - Roulette
Posted by zengrifter on 16-Jul-2004 11:00:13 (#9334)

The revised interview contains some previously omitted material, most notably this -

Didn't you once work with a roulette computer crew?

Not a crew, actually, I did some post-prototype R&D with UNLV physics professor Harry Fechter. I met Harry on a fluke when he called me and introduced himself as "the guy who built the hidden blackjack computer" that Eddie Seremba had been wearing when he was pulled up at the Frontier and then hit the newspaper a few days previously. The year was 1977 and I had run a biz-opp ad in the Las Vegas Sun looking for backers. Harry remarked that "even with a computer the edge is so small at blackjack," and that he had something more powerful.

I was familiar with the theory of computer-aided roulette prediction from Thorp's revised Beat The Dealer, Allan Wilson's Casino Gambling Guide, and Richard Epstein's Theory of Gambling and Statistical Logic. Theory held that such a computer could achieve a 40% edge over American roulette! I guessed right and was invited to meet the good doctor.

I met Harry at his nearby home and he gave me a tour of his garage laboratory - among his inventions were a card deck-sized dead car battery starter, a solid-state no moving parts refrigeration chest, a couple of blackjack computers, and the object of my visit... a city phone book-sized second generation roulette computer! I asked this local outstanding scientist why he would be dabbling with these cutting-edge commercial projects, what with his busy UNLV academic schedule and 'CTSA' (cosmic-top-secret-atomic) clearance consulting at the nearby Mercury nuclear test site. He lamented that after his son died a few years previously he realized what he really wanted in life, "to make a great deal of money."

So he had a yellow pages sized roulette computer? Was it viable?

He had done an outstanding job of R&Ding the prototype, considering that this was pre-micro electronics. The algorithm it was based on was gleaned from Ed Thorp and Claude Shannon, using his own academic credentials. Prior to roulette, Harry helped fellow UNLV professor Koko Ita develop the Ita 'Green Fountain' count (first generation SilverFox), and he had then built two of the first hidden blackjack computers to be employed successfully.

The roulette computer, as Harry had developed it, was intended for one person to deploy - slung with a strap over one shoulder under a coat, one hand in the coat's pocket on a control fob, and an ear-phone delivered Morse-code readout... obviously not practical for actual casino play!

Over a three week period he educated me about biased wheels - the computer exploited a bias that was found in 8 out of 10 wheels: most wheels are not perfectly level, and even being off one-half degree from level would cause the ball to fall from the track at the same spot most of the time. Harry reminded me several times that micro-electronics were just "around the corner" that could produce a third-generation model reduced to cigarette pack size - we envisioned the next-generation miniature with eyeglass mounted micro-switches tripped at the user's temples by jaw clenching!

My job was to re-think/work the application concept - retrofitting a Radio Shack FM transmitter to the audio-based readout - transmitting to a confederate wearing a small transistor radio. And I was to line up the BR.

Anyway, Harry was after all a college professor and he got cold feet. To my knowledge his roulette machine was never successfully put into play.

end excerpt

Very interesting
Posted by ladykiller on 16-Jul-2004 12:33:15 (#9335)

I am wondering how exactly u calculate how tilted the table is. Is it by when the ball drops, the distance or time it takes before it bounces? Is this used a lot today by pros? More info please. Very interesting.

If you're interested in advantage roulette
Posted by Royam on 16-Jul-2004 17:37:13 (#9337)

You might want to check Ian Anderson's "Burning the Tables in LV", pp. 145-147, as he was in such a team.


Advantage Roulette
Posted by blackjackhack on 16-Jul-2004 17:59:23 (#9338)

My understanding is that the computer-assisted wheel clocking teams entered a variety of variables into a computer, could precisely forecast where the ball would stop, and were able to attain a 40% advantage.

It seems entirely plausible to me that a more modest advantage could be attained by a two-person "manual" wheel clocking team. If the team could locate a croupier who spun the wheel, and tossed the ball, at reasonably consistent rates of speed, you could predict the landing zone with enough accuracy to gain a very modest (1-3%?) advantage. The "spotter" would call the landing zone, and the "bettor" would bet on 9 squares (the predicted landing location, and 4 on each side of the predicted landing location). The keys would be (1) finding a croupier who is consistent (they are trained to vary their speeds), and (2) longevity (it would be hard to do this for very long without being obvious).

How much time do you get for that?
Posted by John on 19-Jul-2004 16:04:59 (#9382)

Lets say I was able to make a program on a mini pocket sized computer that exploited the biases of a roulette wheel. I was found out and they found the computer in my pocket. How much time would I get in prison ? I know in Vegas you would get a lot of time but what about other states.

**my responses -
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Jul-2004 21:43:11 (#9410)

**my responses -

If the team could locate a croupier who spun the wheel, and tossed the ball, at reasonably consistent rates of speed, you could predict the landing zone with enough accuracy to gain a very modest (1-3%?) advantage.

**the computer tech works BECAUSE the ball always falls from the track at the SAME SPEED, regardless of its initial velocity.

The "spotter" would call the landing zone, and the "bettor" would bet on 9 squares (the predicted landing location, and 4 on each side of the predicted landing location).

**this is how the computer calls it to.

**the key is actually the same for your non-computer method - most wheels are biased in that they are not 100% level - even when they are off-level by just 1/2 degree the ball tends to fall from the track at the same spot (the apex) - look for that and you'll see its quite common. zg

This book is right up your alley But if you do the crime.... *LINK*
Posted by smallfry on 22-Jul-2004 07:32:35 (#9427)

American Roulette - Richard Marcus
Best read I have had in a while

You may have met "Mr Marcus" at one point or another

Alway get the money (I could not do this)


Mayor on Fox Sports Net
Posted by The Mayor on 17-Jul-2004 13:59:34 (#9339)

Finally, I think today is the day... I should be in the audience while the prizes are being awarded for the finals of the poker championship at the Plaza (June 6). Look for me.

If you are wondering who won, it was Daniel Negreanu. He said to his girlfriend (right after winning): "see, I told you if you stayed with me I'd win!" Now, that's a solid foundation for a relationship. I can just imagine the conversation that prompted this remark:

GF: "I'll only stay with you if you get rich and famous playing poker!"
DN: "I promise, just stay with me and I'll win some day."
GF: "You had better win right now or I'm leaving you!"
DN: "So, you're calling my bluff? OK, just watch ..."

Clearly the stakes DN was playing for were far higher than the $300k he won.

Here are the broadcast times for the show.


Sat, 17 3:30 PM 244 FSN 217475
Sat, 17 3:30 PM 37 FSN 217475
Sat, 17 5:00 PM 36 FSN N/A
Sat, 17 11:00 PM 244 FSN 18814
Sat, 17 11:00 PM 37 FSN 18814
Sun, 18 1:00 AM 245 FSA N/A
Sun, 18 2:00 AM 36 FSN N/A
Sun, 18 7:00 AM 245 FSA N/A
Sun, 18 10:00 AM 244 FSN 37944
Sun, 18 10:00 AM 36 FSN N/A
Sun, 18 10:00 AM 37 FSN 37944
Sun, 18 4:00 PM 244 FSN 12012
Sun, 18 4:00 PM 37 FSN 12012
Sun, 18 6:00 PM 246 FSC N/A
Sun, 18 6:00 PM 36 FSN N/A
Sun, 18 8:00 PM 247 FSP N/A
Sun, 18 9:00 PM 244 FSN 75079
Sun, 18 9:00 PM 37 FSN 75079
Mon, 19 2:00 AM 245 FSA N/A
Mon, 19 2:00 AM 246 FSC N/A
Mon, 19 8:00 PM 36 FSN N/A
Tue, 20 12:00 PM 246 FSC N/A
Tue, 20 2:00 PM 247 FSP N/A
Tue, 20 3:00 PM 247 FSP N/A
Wed, 21 1:00 AM 244 FSN 397624
Wed, 21 1:00 AM 37 FSN 397624
Wed, 21 3:00 AM 244 FSN 842570
Wed, 21 3:00 AM 37 FSN 842570
Sat, 24 7:00 AM 246 FSC N/A
Sat, 24 3:00 PM 247 FSP N/A
Sat, 24 8:00 PM 245 FSA N/A
Sat, 24 11:00 PM 244 FSN 27569
Sat, 24 11:00 PM 37 FSN 27569
Sun, 25 2:00 AM 36 FSN N/A
Sun, 25 7:00 AM 246 FSC N/A
Sun, 25 10:00 AM 244 FSN 13361
Sun, 25 10:00 AM 36 FSN N/A
Sun, 25 10:00 AM 37 FSN 13361


Wonder if DN got a BJ that night?....
Posted by phantom007 on 17-Jul-2004 14:51:45 (#9341)

Congrats Mayor on your "15 minutes of fame"!

Kind of feel sorry for DN, the guy who won $300k. At this level, the IRS will take about 41%, and most states 6-10%. Of course, he will have to buy that lady something, likely something small and expensive and relatively useless, such as diamond jewelery, so subtract another 10-15%. Add in expenses, buy-in, lost time from work, etc., approx 3-5%.

Looks like he won about $90k!

Then that fickle BITCH will marry his ass, thinking she found a "cash cow", i.e. "bull". Since it is unlikely that he will win at this level long-term, she will then divorce his ass, taking 1/2 of what is left. And the lawyers will take about $40k.

Net: $5k!

So, I HOPE HE GOT A BJ!.....If not, calculating in child support....



The question that we should be asking...
Posted by Learning to count on 17-Jul-2004 15:13:26 (#9342)

Was she hot? Was she a swallower? Is he weak or is he a player? With all that mony a hooker would of been a better deal! Some of the hookers there are incredible if you can afford them. DN can afford it now. He looks like a a genius in numbers/poker but an idiot in the game of love(sex). Hey Mayor you should have approached him about backing a BlackJack team.

Too much information
Posted by The Mayor on 17-Jul-2004 15:20:04 (#9344)

This site may be visited by children, let's keep it (uhm) decent.

Otherwise, love the replies!

As far as the team, I was surrounded in the stands at the Poker tourney by a team of guys who had just competed in the "offensive smell" olympics. Look for them.


Mayor, Sir, you are too Tense! You need a BJ!...
Posted by phantom007 on 17-Jul-2004 20:27:00 (#9345)

And preferably with your MAX. shoved IN, excuse me, I mean "On" the Field of Play. IMHO, Nothing SWEETER than a BJ "WHEN YOU ARE EXTENDED TO THE MAX.", i.e., Max. Bet, and especially when you were side-counting Aces, and the Ct. was +++++++, and you knew that you were EITHER going to get a BJ or Ins. opportunity anyway.

As far as violation of PG-13 Ratings go, I only intended to imply that Mr. DN, the PLAZA POKER CHAMPION would have been better off playing BJ and getting lots of BJ's, than he would playing the "RELATIONSHIP GAME" with THIS F#CKING B$TCH!

CHILDREN TAKE NOTE: In French, # = "A", therefore "FACKING", and "$" = "E", and therefore, "BETCH", and thus, "FACKING BETCH" means "Nice Lady who will stand behind you and/or with you despite all of your failures".

Likewise, Mayor, you are obviously concerned about LTC's post. It is obvious to me that HE was only concerned about the relative health of the FACKING B$TCH.

For example:

-----"Is she Hot?" means "Is she Menopausal?".

-----"Does she Swallow?" means "Does she have an esophogeal motility disorder, such as Scleroderma, wherein "she spits-up whenever she tries to swallow".

-----Of course, I admit, "Does she swallow" could be translated in FRENCH as "Is she married?".

-----"Hookers would be Cheaper and Better" means "Res Ipsa Loquitor", which in Latin, literally translates "The Thing Speaks For Itself", i.e., "Hookers would be Cheaper and Better".

Anyhow, best of luck to DN, the Plaza Poker Champion.


Dam* you, FSN!
Posted by The Mayor on 17-Jul-2004 22:21:44 (#9350)

The finals are next week. Today they weeded down from 12 to 6 people. My cameo must await yet another episode... (like anyone cares).

This is the most drawn out poker event in the history of TV. It has gone on 4 weeks already. They make this seem like its the most important poker tournament this side of Mars.

Please tell me that...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Jul-2004 22:35:46 (#9351)

... you are not offering, Phantom!

Posted by John on 18-Jul-2004 12:30:33 (#9354)


That post was some of the funniest stuff I've seen from you. You had me laughing. The part about the greatest poker tournament/mars .

Got back from my trip and made 80 units. I was up 180 units and got a few shoes from hell. It was crazy because I lost almost every hand for 2 or 3 double deck shoes. That has never happened. I dropped 100 green units in 20 minutes. Next time, there won't be 100 green units in my wallet. I was on my way to breaking a personal record for most won on a single trip but fell short on that last 20 minutes. After that, I walked outside and was in such a daze that I almost didn't know where I was or where I had parked my car. Anyone done that ?

Oh yeah, I was eating at McDonald's and the manager comes up behind me and says, "I'm sorry sir but you are no longer allowed to eat here. " I couldn't believe it, first blackjack and now this. Haha just kidding but that would be funny.

Don't Worry About DN
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 19-Jul-2004 08:52:12 (#9369)

1 - He lives in Canada, so he won't have to worry about the Federal Taxes, Gambling winnings aren't taxable in Canada.

2 - He still lives with his mother - so I think the girl friend has her work cut out for her.

Wins But Loses at Same Time LOL!! *NM*
Posted by Radar on 19-Jul-2004 16:30:51 (#9387)

KO Expectancy for Late Surrender?
Posted by MJ on 17-Jul-2004 22:04:11 (#9349)

I understand that if I play a 6D game with DA2, DAS, S17, 75% penetration, and a betting ramp of 6 then my expectancy becomes .73% using the KO Preferred system. But can somebody please tell me what the NEW expectancy would be if Late Surrender was offered?

I don't think I can simply add .06% for LS to .73% and arrive at my new expectancy of .79% can I?

Thanks in advance!


Better than that
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Jul-2004 23:06:22 (#9352)

If you learn and use all of the surrender indexes the benefits of surrender will be considerably more than for the basic strategy player. Some of the most powerful indexes are the surrender ones.

Just as importantly, surrender helps protect your bankroll. Those indexes are often played (like 14 vs.X and 13 vs.X) when you have a lot of money out on the table.

By the way you'll need more than a 1-6 spread to effectively beat that game.

Won 1500 dollars in negative counts
Posted by John on 18-Jul-2004 15:47:38 (#9355)

Ever wished you were betting more in those negative counts when you just kept getting blackjack after blackjack? I finally did it. I don't know what possessed me but I got on a little streak when betting the minimum and switched to a 5 unit flat bet and kept getting 20's and blackjacks shoe after shoe so I kept the 5 unit bet out until I finally lost then switched back. I was laughing hysterically and shouting at the PB -- "I can't believe this" and stuff like that. It was great cover and I didn't even use a counting bet ramp or anything the whole time I was there. After that, it was time to go. That type of thing needs to happen more often.

What luck!
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Jul-2004 16:49:06 (#9356)

Winning is nice, lots of people win. That's why LV exists. I like to win. I really like to win.

I remember a night when this father and son sat to my left at a juicy double-deck game (80%+ pen) and didn't have a clue. They bet randomly $50 to $200, and would do things like stand on A-2 when the dealer had a bust card. They were drunk and could hardly hold their cards after a fashion. They won several thousand dollars, getting blackjack after blackjack. Meanwhile, I played 3 hours without getting a single blackjack and lost my shirt, counting like crazy.

Anecdotal incidents have nothing to do with the truths we all know. It is the reliance on anecdote that causes us to believe in crazy things. On the other hand, no anecdote has ever landed on the moon or discovered a cure for polio. Science solves problems. The only true solution to blackjack is the one science and mathematics has confirmed for us. All other solutions are false gods.


Nights like that are fun
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Jul-2004 17:22:16 (#9357)

Yeah, I'll never forget playing a week or two ago. Started off the shoe with 3 BJ's, and the 4th hand was split aces, winning both hands.

By this time, you can imagine what the count looked like, but I know better than to Wong out on a win so I kept playing for a loss. Couldn't lose. It was fun because I got to use a couple of rare index plays (draw 14 vs. 2 and such) and I finally lost one 2/3 into a 6D shoe and left, up $500. Too bad I didn't have this shuffle tracked, as I'd love to play those cards again.

Experiences like this only partially make up for the agony of doing everything right, getting your good counts, and losing your shirt.

Good opportunity to ask
Posted by Royam on 18-Jul-2004 18:23:49 (#9358)

One question that begins to come to my mind more and more often:

BJ advantage play works only when you go into big numbers. I ran a few simulations and, StanDev is worrying me.

Would it make any sense at all to play a few hours a couple of times a year? (there is no way I could play every week, maybe not even every month) I fear I could very well loose everything and it still wouldn't be surprising, because I would be playing too little to reach the critical numbers.

Am I being overly pessimistic?


Two Ways
Posted by Hal Jordan on 18-Jul-2004 18:58:35 (#9359)

In the end there are two ways to play Blackjack: right and wrong. You will gain hours as the years pass, thus taking you closer and closer to the proverbial long run. I don't think you can worry about that now. Take the game up as a hobby and do the best you can with it, while still having fun and acknowledging that time, which you currently do not have, is a necessity. Don't overbet, have a good time, let the cards fall where they may. Learn the math, master the psychology.


Play when you can
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Jul-2004 22:12:12 (#9362)

It's a statistical fallacy promoted by those who don't truly understand the math that you can only make money in "the long term".

More accurately, you can only be *assured* of making money in the long term. But your advantage on your first night out counting is the same as it will be over your entire lifetime. My first 11 trips were winners. And I've had 3 losing trips in a row that almost bankrupted me. If my first 3 trips had been the losers, I'd likely have been disgusted by counting and given it up, believing I was not able to do it right.

In short, it doesn't matter how often or how long you count in terms of your percent advantage. Standard deviation is a different story. But your standard deviation is equally likely to be good as bad. So play your game, concentrate on what your role in the game is (counting and all the things that go with it) and hope for good variance.

Thanks for your advice and support *NM*
Posted by Royam on 19-Jul-2004 09:39:20 (#9370)

what I like to do
Posted by John on 22-Jul-2004 00:31:35 (#9426)

Raise your spread to get a large win rate and win % . In my opinion, the better the winrate and win % and the lower the NO, the quicker you will see the results. Also, find a great game. I found a game here near my neck-of-the- woods with an off-the-top advantage. Yeah, I couldn't believe it. I could play basic strategy and still come away a slight winner. If you got the cash, and they let you play, you'd make a nice hourly wage off that.

3 Balls Golf

Message to Cellini
Posted by Barfarkel on 18-Jul-2004 19:58:43 (#9360)

DV: P;ease email me at



The future of Blackjack *LINK*
Posted by Chaz7342 on 18-Jul-2004 20:44:27 (#9361)


My name is Chad and I am new to this forum.

I was reading about this new Blackjack table being put in casinos called MindPlay. Basically it tracks everything automatically, the cards, the count, your bets, your number of hands played, etc. Based off this information, you will get comped accuratley and it will send red flags to pit bosses when it determines a player is a likely to be a card counter.

My question is this: When casinos replace their tables with MindPlay tables where does this leave the card counters and comp counters?

If you want more information on this product, you can go to their website at The best articles about the product are in the "media" section.


or ...
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Jul-2004 22:33:09 (#9363)

You could scroll down the home page on this site to reach:


Posted by Chaz7342 on 18-Jul-2004 23:31:35 (#9364)

wow, very interesting letter and response.

It seems inevitable that all casinos will eventually go to MP21. I guess the only reason a casino wouldn't install MP21 is if they think players would be turned off by them. But I think in the end casinos will realize they will make more money and finally have accurate data from their table games.

Where I play in CT (Mohegan Sun) they are definitely the future. Its going to cost them about 3 million dollars to install it across all their 130 tables ($23,000 per table).


Posted by eyesfor21 on 19-Jul-2004 00:03:30 (#9365)

just frequently change seats,and tables..and your

Just like the flop of csm
Posted by Tom on 19-Jul-2004 14:38:31 (#9377)

Yeah,I remember when continuous shuffle machines came out. There was much talk and shilling of how great they were because of blah,blah,blah and the end for card counting was thought to be inevident. I never believed these guys touting their stuff for one second. Well, it just so happens the csms flopped out. Many casinos who tried these machines got rid of them. The list is too long to explain why. I also see mindplay as no big deal,it'll never catch on and it's very easy to actually play mindgames on this contraption leaving the machine in a state of "confused shock"...ouch!

Mindplay seems easy to beat
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Jul-2004 01:44:07 (#9366)

Here's one way. You'll need a partner. When it is time to change your bet, simply change it so that the sum of your two bets is the desired target.

Example: let's say both of you are spreading $25-300. On one high count, one of you bets $500, the other bets $100. On the next one, you reverse. On a medium count, one of you bets $50, the other $150. Each of the two players will appear to the computer to be betting at random.

There are probably ways to fool the scanner. How about a t-shirt with a stack of $100 chips printed on it? Sounds like comp players could have some fun with this.

By the way Chad, have you seen any Mindplay at Mohegan? Do you play there often?

Mohegan Sun *LINK*
Posted by Chaz7342 on 20-Jul-2004 18:14:50 (#9403)

Automatic Monkey,

I play at Mohegan Sun at least 2 or 3 times a month. I haven't seen any mindplay tables yet but I know they are coming based on what I've heard from people that work there.


Is there any hope of general boycott? *NM*
Posted by Royam on 19-Jul-2004 09:46:15 (#9371)

Posted by oldnewbie on 20-Jul-2004 15:00:56 (#9398)

I noticed in their website that the system runs on Windows 2000 and a Windows server. I work with this stuff everyday, and I really don't think we have anything to worry about. After the casino finds out how much of a hassle all this hardware and software is to get up and running reliably, they will give up and just go back to the status quo.

Mindplay Experience
Posted by RELO on 23-Jul-2004 00:23:09 (#9444)

Several LV casinos are experimenting w/ MindPlay.
One new system I was playing on was already experiencing card reading technical difficulties, so the pit boss told the dealer to proceed anyway.
The MindPlay tables had very few players for good reason (even for ploppies).
The system is not transparent and seamless--significant delays occur due to the
requirement of sliding the dealer's cards into the reader (like hole card checking
for BJs, except for all dealer's hands).
The dealer also has to scan the cards after every shuffle and punch in
player buy-ins and playing position.
I switched seats on a particular table several times just to
observe the dealer's procedure (more delays).
Off-center bet placement seemed to go undetected by the scanner since the dealer would
always pause to recenter it.
I didn't test to see what would happen if my toke stack in front of
my bet was higher than my bet itself (e.g., two one's being toked in front
of a $25).
The casino changed their chips to accommodate MindPlay so I suspect
the chips are now easier for either an optical or RF detector pick up.

I estimated that MindPlay tends to slow the table action by ~25%.
This coupled with the fewer ploppies (due to the intimidation factor) and negative advantage card counters, the table holds must have dropped considerably.
Lower holds, more training, and of course the initial capital investment and
recurring licensing and maintenance costs will drive MindPlay out; however,
this may take several years.

Why are the PB's so good looking ?
Posted by John on 19-Jul-2004 07:21:54 (#9367)

I've been to some casinos where the pit bosses are generally men and the women aren't that great looking. The ones I recently went to had pit bosses that were unbelievably good looking and were fantastic dressers, too. Is it the smile as you kill mentality that the casinos are going for ? You are completely in love with the pit boss so you forget how much money you are losing ? These pit bosses were unbelievable. I just couldn't believe it.

I would not know since I am not attracted to
Posted by Learning to count on 19-Jul-2004 08:11:23 (#9368)

men. But I have seen some coctail waitresses at sevral LV strip casinos that leave my toungue hanging. Hey why would you be in love with any person who's main job is to see you lose the mortgage payment and if possible get your a$$ kicked by gorrilla security guards.. John you need to focus a lot more if you want to be adept at card counting. ; ) LTC

I'm not talking about men !!
Posted by John on 19-Jul-2004 13:07:31 (#9374)


I'm talking about female pit bosses. woops I thought that was just understood. I'm not gay. You can card count and still notice the pit bosses figure. Come on, lighten up. You might as well enjoy the perks that come with the job. I bet Automatic notices the female pit bosses.

I agree
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 19-Jul-2004 14:40:52 (#9378)

I Have noticed (In CT anyway) that alot of the female PB's are very attractive. I try to flirt (in a nice way of course) with them as much as possible... and for the most part it keeps them away from me:) where I want them to be when I am coutning. Good thing I don't look like Brad Pitt or it wouldn't work!

I'm not good at that
Posted by John on 19-Jul-2004 14:57:28 (#9380)

I wish I was good at flirting but I'm not. I think my feelings are hurt way too easily and that is why I don't even go there. Flirting would be good for cover but these days in most places, it won't even do that. I mean no amount of flirting can make up for those programs they have that watch your money and the cards.

Hey I was joking. *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 19-Jul-2004 16:06:25 (#9383)

An amazing barring experience
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Jul-2004 09:48:50 (#9372)

I am forwarding this personal email with the author's permission.

>Mr. Jacobson,
>I apologize for the length of this email. Thanks in advance for bearing
>with me.
>I've spent the last couple of days reading posts and Podiums on your site
>and I have to say that I find it all very interesting. I would welcome any
>thoughts you might have on my recent experience.
>I have gambled for about 15 years, but I am not as skilled as any of your
>posters. I understand the precepts of card counting and own a couple of
>books on the subject. But gambling for me is only an entertainment and I
>treat it as such. I enjoy poker, blackjack, and roulette. I can win at
>medium limit poker and that almost makes up for what I lose elsewhere. My
>blackjack play is basic strategy mostly at $25 tables. In the last 5 years,
>I have played regularly at three casinos near my home and I visit Las Vegas
>and/or Biloxi a couple of times a year. I always use a player's card.
>Though I don't lose THAT much, I have never been turned down for any
>requested comp. Other than the occasional horrific loss, I have never had
>any negative incident in a casino. In short, I can afford this gambling
>lifestyle and I enjoy it.
>On July 11th, everything changed. My wife and I, along with two friends,
>had spent the day playing at Caesar's Palace. My friends played mostly
>craps and were a few hundred ahead, my wife won $500 at roulette, and I got
>slaughtered at blackjack. I couldn't buy a hand and, for the day, was down
>around $3000. About 7PM, we cashed out and were standing around trying to
>decide on dinner plans. While we were standing there, a suited casino
>employee addressed me by name and asked if he could speak to me. I said
>sure and he motioned me to follow him for a few steps. Suddenly, I was
>surrounded by uniformed guards. The suit told me that my "action was no
>longer wanted." At first I thought it was a joke or simply a mistake, but
>he made it clear that it was not. He demanded my driver's license and I
>asked what he needed it for, considering that he already knew my name. He
>replied that if I did not turn over my license, he would take it from me. I
>wasn't exactly in a position to refuse his request. He then demanded the
>names and addresses of the people with me. I told him it was none of his
> business.
>My wife tried to walk over and ask what was going on, but was refused access
>to me. I continued to press for an explanation and was told only "you know
>why we're doing this." The suit pulled out a card and copied information
>from my license. He then had the uniforms escort me a few yards away while
>he made a phone call, all the time keeping my wife away from me. He walked
>back up and read me the trespass act, which I assume you are very familiar
>with, and asked me to sign the card. I demanded to know why this was
>happening; he refused to answer any questions, saying only that I would be
>escorted from the premises and arrested should I set foot on any Park Place
>owned property ever again. I refused to sign the card and again demanded an
>explanation or a phone number where I could reach someone with more
>authority. A security supervisor handed me a card and told me to call the
>casino manager on Monday if I wanted an explanation. I was then escorted to
>the valet parking area and kept surrounded until the car showed up.
>On Tuesday, I called the casino and was connected with the casino shift
>manager who had been on duty during my dismissal. I explained that I simply
>wanted to know the reasons why I had been treated this way. He told me that
>my ejection was a "management decision" and was irrevocable for life. When
>I kept pressing, he assured me that further inquiries would get me nowhere.
>I asked if I would be allowed to shop in the Forum or eat at Caesar's
>restaurants. He said I would be arrested for criminal trespass if I set
>foot on any of their properties. I mentioned that I had a reserved room and
>a booth at an August law enforcement conference at the Las Vegas Hilton that
>was already paid for. He again told me that I would be arrested if I
>attempted to enter the property.
>I have never had a bad experience in many years gambling at Caesar's. I had
>no problems with casino personnel or other players during play that day. I
>did not drink alcohol. I was not cheating in any manner. I can only assume
>that security somehow pegged me as a card counter. Other than a continuing
>chain of letters toward the top of Park Place Entertainment, I am not sure
>how to proceed. I am not concerned about playing in their casinos again; I
>am concerned about being placed in a database of "cheaters" and being barred
>from other places. I am also concerned about the Harrah's takeover of Park
>Place as Harrahs is one of my local casinos. Will this limit my options
>even further?
>I'm sure this is a textbook case of mild casino harassment. I have tried to
>give a complete transcription of events and would appreciate if you have any
>questions, comments or suggestions. Four days later, the entire event seems
>like a dream. But I don't relish the possibility of no place to play on my
>planned January Vegas trip. Once again, thank you for your time. I wish
>you and your posters well, especially at Caesar's.
>[signature deleted]

sounds about right
Posted by John on 19-Jul-2004 13:20:36 (#9375)

Sounds like my encounter. Although, they didn't force me or try to get me to sign a card. It is unbelievable. The Mayor could probably add more about it than I could since he has probably had more experience with it but it is amazing that casinos worry about hundreds of dollars being bet when they make millions or maybe billions every year. I don't get it other than it is ego. It is them saying "I've got power here not you". I was backed off a couple times on this last trip, too but they weren't as traumatizing. I'm getting to the point where I'm looking behind me every 10 minutes for the security guards and managers and also looking at my watch every 15 minutes.

Ploppy idea
Posted by Royam on 19-Jul-2004 14:23:01 (#9376)

To the sender of the letter,

I have absolutely no casino experience, so take my advice for what it is worth: not much. Still I find this barring amazing and would like to tell you what I would do in your situation, based on common sense.

From your letter, I conclude you do not count at all, just apply basic strategy. What is more, you lost $3,000 during this evening. In short, you are the perfect customer for a casino: confident enough with your game to play greens and lose a considerable amount of money. Contrary to counters who want as little publicity as possible, you should not fear to press the issue and have your play reviewed based on the tapes. All it could show is that you're NOT a counter and that the barring was a regrettable mistake. If you want to pursue this option, you should do it immediately (most casinos rewrite tapes after 2-3 or 7 days).

Just my ploppy opinion, others will probably give you better advice.


very strange
Posted by Tom on 19-Jul-2004 14:48:04 (#9379)

He thinks they may have pegged him as a card counter,but earlier says he only plays basic. I guess he means they thought he was counting cards. He also mentions nothing of bet spread. If he was only flat betting and still got kicked out then something very strange is going on.

Fug em! I would have grabbed the cash and
Posted by Learning to count on 19-Jul-2004 16:04:02 (#9381)

made the dash. Dont give them any thing. If they grab you and man handle dont fight back or start freaking out. Its all on camera. Ask for the police. DO NOT GIVE THEM ANYTHING!!!! DONT ANSWER THIER QUESTIONS. ASK FOR THE POLICE THREATON THEM WITH CRIMINALK CHARGES AND A LAW SUIT! tHIS GUY WAS A FOOL HE SHOULD HAVE GRABBED HIS CHIPS AND WALKED TO THE DOOR.

He lost 3000 dollars *NM*
Posted by John on 19-Jul-2004 16:13:53 (#9384)

Posted by SammyBoy on 20-Jul-2004 14:22:03 (#9395)

I think you should cut the guy some slack. The last thing most players (ploppies) ever expect is to be treated the way he was. I'm sure the guy was in total shock and thought it was all a big mistake.

happens all the time write a letter
Posted by eyesfor21 on 20-Jul-2004 14:58:14 (#9397)

Write a letter to the Las Vegas review paper,,,it may get posted
A friend of mine got told to leave for having a basic
strategy card on the table(a non counter too rookie) and was told
to leave the casino.
Another friend who does not even know basic was told to
leave a large strip casino,but he was up around 2500 at the
It does happen a lot,its unreal,it should be our job to make this
known to the public.

Sorry about calling a Begginer a fool!
Posted by Learning to count on 20-Jul-2004 15:48:45 (#9399)

I still would have took the cash and said ADIOS mother's! Your right we should be out educating the public!!!!!!!!!!! Fugging greedy casinos!

I Agree wity You *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 21-Jul-2004 14:16:26 (#9416)

Do We Have a Resident Attorney Here?
Posted by Radar on 19-Jul-2004 16:16:59 (#9385)

I would think the gentlemen would have grounds of possible "harrasment".

He did nothing illegal, was not cheating, minding his own business, was not disruptive in any manner, obviously not counting and playing by the rules. Isn't that supposedly "what's expected" of casino patrons? What is the difference in this or someone going to a movie sitting down with a bag of popcorn and just getting ready to watch the movie when management comes up to them and tells them they are barred?

Now you, me, and others here would NEVER press this, but since he doesn't count, he has nothing to lose to pursue it. He cannot be pegged a "counter" because he is NOT one and the tapes would clearly show that.

I would think a publicity campaign to "expose" Caesars for harassing their customers would do some good (maybe even for us). If the media gets a hold of it and his attorney presses for a tape review and can prove he DIDN'T count, perhaps, these casinos will think twice before 86ing someone they THINK is a counter. At the very least if they are not TOTALLY convinced, they may let us play longer! ;)

I agree that if he does pursue it, he should act quickly to stop the destruction of the tapes.

My 2-cents worth!

Not a Lawyer but ...
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 19-Jul-2004 16:28:59 (#9386)

He was asked to leave. The casino was with in it's rights. Card counting is not illegal, yet counters are asked to leave and barred for the same reason -- ie. the casino doesn't need a reason. The casino is private property. The owner of private property can ask any one to leave, at any time, for no reason.

They do not have the right to see ID. The guy's comment of "show me your ID or I will take it from you" was a BLUFF. If he had known what he was doing, he wouldn't have shown ID. If they did try to forcibly take his ID -- then a lawyer would have a case. !!!$$$ Ka-Ching $$$!!!

It all might be moot anyways. Harrahs might be buying out Ceasars, so it won't be CZR property anymore.

Don't worry about going to other casino properties. You aren't required to do a bunch of Wall Street Research to see what corporate entity owns what casino. Go to the other casinos, and if you are just there for a convention, they aren't going to care. If they do ask you to leave, then leave. In the case of paying for a convention booth and being asked to leave -- again the phrase !!!$$$ Ka-Ching $$$!!! comes to mind, since they will be violating their contract they entered into in regards to the convention.

Very true
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Jul-2004 19:00:40 (#9390)

A place like that isn't going to try to forcibly take ID from someone. I'd tell them to go fornicate themselves, spit on the floor, and leave.

Isn't Phantom007 a Lawyer? *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 20-Jul-2004 14:25:04 (#9396)

A lawyer's good news and bad news
Posted by Seeker on 20-Jul-2004 16:17:39 (#9400)

I'm not licensed in Nevada, but from what I've read, I think that Nevada law is bad news for our correspondent. The casino can bar him without a good reason, as long as it's not for one of the bad reasons established by antidiscrimination laws (race, religion, etc.).

As other posters have noted, they didn't actually rough him up. Cutting him off from his possessions up in his hotel room might be actionable, but I gather that his wife was still allowed onsite, so I assume he actually recovered all his stuff. Similarly, the goon's threat to take his ID from him might be deemed improper, but the player didn't actually suffer any significant damage from that.

The leading authority on stuff like this is Bob Nersesian:

Robert A. Nersesian, Esq.
Nersesian & Sankiewicz
528 South Eighth Street
Las Vegas, Nevada 89118
Telephone: 702-385-5454

The player might try contacting Bob to see if there's a basis for legal action, but I wouldn't be very optimistic. Bear in mind that the Nevada judicial system is a wholly owned subsidiary of the casino industry.

Now, here's the good news: The Las Vegas Hilton is no longer a Caesars property. The sale to the new owner (Colony Capital) was completed last month, so I'd guess that Caesars is no longer automatically sharing information about barrings with LVH. The player shouldn't have any trouble at his trade show.

Learning to understand gambling law!
Posted by Learning to count on 20-Jul-2004 19:27:47 (#9405)

Actually the casino or any legitimate licensed business can deny anyone access to their property/business with out a reason. This is like a man's(owner) house is his castle law. A person has the right to eject any one from his house who has no legal right to be there. A business has the right to deny anyone from doing business with them as well.

The big issue is that the home owner/business/casino need not have a reason. If they have a reason for ejection then the liability thermometer starts to rise. So it is better that they just ask you to leave and not provide the reason. In effect the casino has a right to be silent when you demand a reason.

There are certain reasons for ejection that predominatly have to do with criminal associations/black listing that the casinos must follow or they them selves can be in trouble with the state gambling commission.

If a person can prove that there is a reason for expulsion then there might be chance of liability. Since the state of Nevada and the casino's ability to provide a huge tax base any such cases will be tough to proceed with. With all liabilty cases you must show real damage. Good luck in showing that your feelings and your ability to earn a living off of the casino's teete was hurt when you were trespassed.

In conclusion if they throw you out because you are of a certain race, creed, etc. and you can prove it then you will have a case. Just becuse the gorilla security gaurd called you a worthless piece of doodoo thieving card counter. Well this is not a legal discrimination.

It is a shame that no legal experts have explored into the fact that the games licensed and approved by the state have to have one basic factor "THE CHANCE FOR THE GAMBLER TO WIN". If the game does not have this then how could it be game of chance. THE RECENT MOVE BY THE CASINOS IS TO PUSH THE BELIEF THAT GAMBLING IS ENTERTAINMENET AND NOT CHANCE could be dangerous precedent. Many gambling law makers could believe this as well.

There maybe a chance for legal experts to show that the casinos are breaking the law by thier obvious use of new games which lower the chances to win with the recent changes in the games of BJ to wit: superfun21, ccm, fake two decks, etc.. These changes improve the casino's take and lessen the chance of winning. Entertainment should stay in the showrooms and leave the gambling to us!

As always my ignorant and humble oppinion. LTC P.S. I'm probably wishing for a miracle.

this event might pose the question...
Posted by gehrig on 20-Jul-2004 18:11:28 (#9402)

why do some players and not others, get the 86 ?

i suggest that it's a meld of a *particular* pitstiff or shift boss' inadequate training, and the player's poor skills. the first should indicate the overall level of skill of those game protection employees. the latter, playing without ejection, is learned on the job. i enjoy playing the 'stiffs as much as the game itself.

Your do not need much to be a dealer....
Posted by Learning to count on 20-Jul-2004 19:48:53 (#9406)

I agree it is a meld of incompetence and ignorance. With a large slice of greed for dessert!

Is this Recent?
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 21-Jul-2004 16:03:30 (#9418)

If this occurred within the past week or so, this may be overzealous pit personnel trying to impress the new Harrah's mgmt that they are big time counter catchers. Most of these guy in the pits are "juiced in" and now need to prove their worth to new mgmt.
This usually gets them noticed to a point where they will stand out (for good or bad) from the other employees.
I think our victim may have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Too bad, but that's the way this crap works sometimes.

Brownie points for ignorance..
Posted by Tom on 24-Jul-2004 08:18:06 (#9459)

If this moron pitboss keeps it up he'll probably soon be kicked out himself for barring ploppies and basic strategy players.

Posted by wongout on 23-Jul-2004 23:11:06 (#9457)

Hate to say it but I dont buy the story. Of course it could very well be true and sounds authentic but c'mon a guy playing green and basic strategy and losing 3K while wife plays roulette and they treat him like a high rolling counter? They ar pretty dumb but there are enough guys who cant count in the room and I cant imagine that they would be fooled. Only other thing is maybe they thought that he was up to something abit risque like trying to peek at the dealers hold card or something?

wong out - who knows but sounds fishy to me

Never know
Posted by Victoria on 24-Jul-2004 10:44:10 (#9461)

what goes on in the minds of the pit and eye, but it is strange. I have played probably 100 hours in Caesars over the years spreading green and always felt I came under their radar. Longest session was probably 2 hours of lackluster counts but I am generally out of there in about an hour.
Over zealous critter or perhaps there is something like wongout said, we do not know about.
Spreading green on a table occupied by at least one black chip player and keeping sessions short, at least to me, has worked in all the upper end places that I have played in.

London UK casinos?
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 19-Jul-2004 18:27:17 (#9388)

Does anyone have any info on some of the places to play in London, England? I'm visiting there in a couple weeks and would like to know if the games are worthwhile. Any info on rules, entry requirements, location would be appreciated.


My info
Posted by John on 19-Jul-2004 18:54:32 (#9389)

I only have info on several of the London casinos. The only ones that look good to me are Cromwell Mint and Rendezvous. Cromwell offers 4D = -.277 % and 6 D = -.33 % and Rendezvous also offers 4D = -.277 % . The other casinos that I left out had advantages of -.5 % or more or I had no info on them.

Thnx *NM*
Posted by Counter - Intelligence on 20-Jul-2004 18:28:15 (#9404)

Are you sure..........
Posted by Chilliyen on 28-Jul-2004 09:12:57 (#9527)

about those House advantage %ages. The only way you could achieve those figures is to ride on a partner who plays a special kind of BS.

Books now for sale from CardCounter.Com ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Admin on 19-Jul-2004 19:44:52 (#9391)

CardCounter.Com is proud to announce its line of books and other products for advantage players. We invite you to take a look at our offerings, and to help support this site by making your purchases from us.

In case you missed it, here is the link:

CardCounter.Com Book Sales

WOW! Very impressive. *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 19-Jul-2004 22:34:09 (#9392)

Very nice selection.
Posted by shaggy18vw on 19-Jul-2004 23:47:34 (#9393)

I hope this new aspect of the site turns out to be a very lucrative on-line store. This is definetly turning into a premier Blackjack site. kudos

feedback ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Admin on 20-Jul-2004 09:47:06 (#9394)

*A couple of emails have requested author's names.

*Right now the store is not SSL encrypted. That is high on the to-do list.

These changes will be in a few weeks (sorry).

Wonging 6:5 SD
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 20-Jul-2004 17:55:17 (#9401)

Has anyone ever tried this? I'm ordering CVData 3.0, which supports 6:5 BJ so I can figure out where I have to Wong in to make this worthwhile.

Tough road
Posted by shaggy18vw on 20-Jul-2004 19:52:21 (#9407)

My guess is that a favorable situation will be few and far between. Assuming a hi-low count, the advantage won't be yours until you reach about +5.

amusing sight indeed 'twould be....
Posted by gehrig on 20-Jul-2004 20:09:25 (#9408)

likely there are statistics somewhere on the 21 websites indicating the frequency of that "+5" true count. meanwhile, i'd pay to see the act that permits one to double park in the aisle eyeballing a game awaiting that infrequent event.

Don't do it!
Posted by Big Cowboy on 21-Jul-2004 08:49:10 (#9413)

Here we all are decrying the deterioration of playable BJ games, and now people are looking into playing 6:5? What I'm saying is, if people play, then the casinos will make 6:5 even more prevalent. Just stay away from those tables.

Not if we hurt their hold
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Jul-2004 12:48:24 (#9414)

Those tables are usually very un-busy which means they are probably not very profitable. A few Wongers coming through can only hurt their hold, and make 6:5 seem like more of a bad idea from the casino's perspective.

Nice to dream, however...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 21-Jul-2004 17:05:27 (#9419)

they'll never notice much hurt because most of the time your wonged out. So you play 2 hands about every 15 - 20 minutes. To much standing and back-counting. They will bust your business before you can get in enough advantage play to make it worth while.

The thing to do is to just stay away from the 6:5 tables and bad-mouth it to as many people as you can. We can do it in a way that will make people feel stupid for even thinking about playing the game. The ploppies won't play it if they become educated on it even just a little. I like to start conversations by saying: "Gee, all those people don't realize how bad of a game they're playing" ... "It's not even a real game of BJ when they don't pay you properly for a BJ".

Dont waste time with 6/5 wonging crap.
Posted by Tom on 21-Jul-2004 19:02:53 (#9420)

A simple way to mess with the hold without wasting time on a stupid game is buy $500 bucks of chips, play one hand and walk away....oh yeah,be sure to complain about how you thought you was at a REAL blackjack table.


Percent of Time TC>=+5 *LINK*
Posted by Dog Hand on 21-Jul-2004 20:46:29 (#9421)


According to Norm's BJ Stats Website, using High-Low for SD, 4 Rounds, 1-4 spread, no cover, H17, a TC>=+5 will occur 7.91% of the time. With 4 rounds per shoe, you'll get about 1 opportunity every three-to-four shoes... not too long at SD.

For other rules sets, check the website to get the numbers. The "Cumulative Win, Loss, & Tied % By TC" table lists the numbers you'll need.

Dog Hand

gehrig is right, as usual
Posted by LVBear584 on 22-Jul-2004 19:11:40 (#9439)

i'd pay to see the act that permits one to double park in the aisle eyeballing a game awaiting that infrequent event.

I would, too.

Trying to wong 6 to 5 ploppy ripoff games would be a total waste of time. Forget about it. There are too many playable games out there to waste time on garbage.

Bears right and gehrig is the man...
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Jul-2004 20:01:39 (#9441)

Sometimes wisdom from the gods is long in comming. Thanks bear!

I though version 2 could do that
Posted by John on 20-Jul-2004 20:19:11 (#9409)

There is a payoff section on version 2 that I assumed could do that. I wonder if version 3 is worth the money. I can't imagine really needing anything else. Although, I would like a section devoted completely to camouflage since I don't think version 2 deals with that enough. Is he giving free updates if you have version 2 ?

More like +3 *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Jul-2004 21:44:14 (#9411)

no ms so whats the diff. *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 20-Jul-2004 23:26:48 (#9412)

Dont waste your time this is stupid
Posted by Learning to count on 21-Jul-2004 21:25:11 (#9422)

to even discuss. The casino vig is tremendous. Even if you wong in and out you are still playing the same vig and a higher ROR. This is as bad as discussing the merits of a progression. Zengrifter I am surprised you even added to this ignorant thread. Fug the casinos and thier 6/5 bullshite. Tom is right boycott this shite and complain!!!

What vig are you talking about?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Jul-2004 21:46:08 (#9423)

That's silly those BJ games don't collect a vig. If your advantage on a hand is 2%, it's 2%, I don't care if BJ pays 6:5 or 1:1. Gehrig is right in that the issue is how often you will get a count high enough to give you an advantage to make it worth your time waiting on the side to Wong in, and can you make more money doing something else in that time. I'd say probably, yes, but if there is no protection on the 6:5 game at all and there is heavy protection everywhere else, then the 6:5 SD might be the better choice. I want to have a method to beat every BJ game in the casino. Just like the guys that beat SF21.

I don't think wonging 6:5 single deck is very practical *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 21-Jul-2004 22:18:34 (#9424)

crazy thing about it is
Posted by John on 22-Jul-2004 00:25:13 (#9425)

I saw some pit bosses actually watching that game like a hawk.

In one casino, I saw 6:5 blackjack then moved over a few tables and saw "handheld multideck". If you see either of these signs, get out of there. They almost had me fooled with those handheld multideck games. If they didn't have those huge machines behind the table, I might have sat down thinking it was a double deck. I mainly didn't sit down at first because I didn't understand what the machine was doing with the cards. I found out later that it was one of those fake double deck.

No you are wrong!
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Jul-2004 07:50:07 (#9428)

Vig. ""A colloquial expression for the house advantage on a game."" It can also be used to describe any fee collected for play. It derives from a gangland term for the interest charged by loan sharks and is short for vigorish.*

*BJ21 website glossary ala Stanford wong.

The house advantage/VIG is too large to overcome even with wonging positive counts. This is a stupid effort! Boycott all such assinine casino anti counter games. Spread the word! This thread is a waste of typing power!

If you wong in at TC >=4, you have overcome the vig. *NM*
Posted by Gibbs on 22-Jul-2004 09:05:07 (#9430)

Have at it if you think you will win. *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Jul-2004 09:33:56 (#9431)

I did the sim
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-Jul-2004 15:26:51 (#9434)

You Wong in at +6 (HO2), raise your bet at +9, and your win rate is about the same as a bad shoe game. So if the only other game available is a bad shoe game, you have something to keep you from getting bored. Are we settled now?

Sure if you want to continue to play such
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Jul-2004 15:59:33 (#9435)

bad game under such terrible conditions have at it.

Did you use CVDATA version 3 ?
Posted by John on 22-Jul-2004 16:39:56 (#9438)

I got version 2 of CVCX and CVDATA. Did you get version 3 ? Is it even out yet? Do you know if he is giving his customers free updates ?

Posted by TwuntyWun on 23-Jul-2004 19:48:11 (#9456)

I understand your quest to find the way to beat every game that's beatable, sure. But I doubt that standing around backcounting a 6:5 SD game waiting for a +6 count is a good way to relieve boredom. It sounds more like a causative factor. And as Bear mentioned, do you really think you'd be allowed to do this anyway?

You need to read this auto-monkey!
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Jul-2004 07:54:05 (#9429)

Four Common Casino Blackjack Scams


Al Rogers*

Single Deck that pays 6 to 5 on blackjacks

This scam tries to play on the myth among uneducated players that "single deck games offer better odds."

While this is usually true, it is NOT true with the 6 to 5 payoff scam. Normal blackjacks pay 7 ½ to 5. The house advantage on a normal single deck game is .18%, which means that an unskilled player who plays just simple "basic strategy" can expect to lose 18 cents for every $100.00 of bets made.

The 6 to 5 ripoff game has a house edge of 1.45%, more than eight times the advantage the casino has on a normal single deck game. The unskilled player will lose $1.45 for every $100.00 of bets.

The house edge in a normal six-deck shoe is about .63%, much worse for the player than a normal single deck, but nowhere near as bad as the single deck 6 to 5 ripoff game.

Continuous shuffling machines

These nasty devices require the dealer to insert the used cards from each round back into the machine, instead of using a discard tray as is normally done. The effect is that of playing against a virtually infinite deck. Every round is played "off the top of the deck," when there is a 100% chance that the unskilled player is at a severe disadvantage.

Fake double deck or fake single deck games

The dealer will hold one or two decks in his or her hand, but it is really a five to eight-deck game being shuffled every deck or less. There usually is a sign on the table that reads "Hand-Held Multi-Deck Game," though the casino will frequently try to hide the sign behind ashtrays or other objects on the table.

Superfun 21

This is the only game among the four discussed herein that can be beaten by a skilled advantage player. However, it takes an entirely different set of strategy numbers and plays than does normal blackjack. The house advantage is .94%, if using Superfun 21 basic strategy. If played like normal blackjack, it is much worse.

Frequently dealers and pit personnel will lie, telling an unsuspecting tourist that this game can be played "like regular blackjack," but it cannot. If this game is played like regular blackjack, expect to lose and lose very quickly.


* Al Rogers is an employee of -- show your appreciation by visiting today.

Posted by suicyco maniac on 22-Jul-2004 21:40:10 (#9443)

Despite what others are saying I agree with you it is important to be able to play more then just good ole BJ. Ploppies like to play all kinds of games...even if you just figure out a way to play breakeven on a game other then BJ this is good cover and also a way to pass time while waiting on shuffles or conditions to improve...Keep it up....SM

Alias professions?
Posted by Royam on 22-Jul-2004 15:09:15 (#9433)

I was wondering what type of alias professions work when a casino employee asks you what you're doing for a living.

On the one hand, the chosen profession should justifiy your ability to play (and lose) big amounts of money, but it should not be too threatening. Like "mathematician, with a focus on statistics" would probably not be the top ;) Or maybe something that makes the casino want to leave you alone, like personal injury lawyer?

Another problem is that you must be able to play your role in a convincing manner. Imagine:
- Dealer (dealing): And what's your job?
- Player (getting a 10): I'm a heart surgeon.
- Dealer (still dealing): Impressing, what is the most delicate operation you've ever performed?
- Player (getting a second 10 v. 5, and converting the RC to TC while this damn dealer keeps asking stupid questions): hum... well, you know, the one when you repair the heart by replacing the defective things with artificial things... so that the other things keep going...
- Dealer : ... O_o
(Player splits)

Any experience to share as to what works and what does not?


Posted by revereman on 22-Jul-2004 16:00:24 (#9436)

Unless you're way too young to have a real job or are playing way over your head vis a vis your earnings, just go with the truth. There's no reason to ever bring up your occupation. I may have been asked maybe once by the pit in about 25 years of playing and I think that was just conversation.
But if you do want to stop that line of questioning, just say you are a proctologist and that's why it seems like you have your head up your ass sometimes.

certain parts of the country
Posted by John on 22-Jul-2004 16:37:50 (#9437)

Actually, some casinos use this as a form of harassment. When they found out that you are card counting, they come over and try to distract you with dumb questions. Most dealers won't ask you what you do for a living. Usually, it will be the pit boss from my experiences.

I get aked constantly what I DO..
Posted by eyesfor21 on 22-Jul-2004 19:35:38 (#9440)

be truthful yeah right,I play blackajck for a living.
I really do not think that will fly as Iam sure most
other professionals will agree.

Posted by Hal Jordan on 23-Jul-2004 11:20:01 (#9452)

I think this is one of the most asked question I recieve. I think having a good story which is as simple, and as close to the truth, as possible is a necessity.


all the time
Posted by suicyco maniac on 22-Jul-2004 21:36:27 (#9442)

I get asked what I do for a living ALL THE TIME...You just have to be creative and think of something that makes sense and that you know enough about to discuss without sounding like a total idiot...and a profession that the pit or dealer does not need help with.... "I am a doctor" "good we just had a medical emergeny in the other pit come with us" SH*T SM

Homeland Security
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-Jul-2004 05:38:21 (#9446)

Many doctors will not get involved in medical emergencies becuase their insurance might not cover it. Besides you can just tell him you're a proctologist, nobody will want you touching them after that.

I tell them I'm an engineering consultant working for the Department of Homeland Security, can't say about what. I really am an engineer so I can talk the talk and walk the walk.

Posted by blackjackhack on 23-Jul-2004 01:31:01 (#9445)

If you're playing green or black, you want them to think you're rich and dumb. Pick a profession where you can make good money without necessarily being particularly intelligent -- e.g. real estate broker, insurance agent, sales, etc. I certainly wouldn't go with, say, brain surgeon, math professor, or even lawyer or doctor. I usually say "sales."

One guy once said
Posted by Royam on 23-Jul-2004 07:51:45 (#9448)

One guy once said he had said he was a personal injury lawyer and was left surprisingly alone and undisturbed... Do you think this would work?


Try IRS Auditor....
Posted by phantom007 on 23-Jul-2004 08:19:12 (#9449)

Keeps the table empty, PC's avoid you like the plague. However, sometimes have trouble getting a dealer to deal to you as well.


That's my line
Posted by Victoria on 23-Jul-2004 11:08:26 (#9451)

Phantom, though I never have used it with a pit boss, I have used it with a ploppy or two trying to pick me up on the tables. Also works very well with an annoying neighbor on a plane.

Posted by Big Cowboy on 23-Jul-2004 08:48:03 (#9450)

There are a lot of rich doctors and lawyers who don't know a thing about gambling. Just say you're a urologist. They get to stick their fingers both in the front and back. No one will want to talk about those things.

I'm an advantaged Slot player, trying to get some cover playing blackjack! *NM*
Posted by Boston_Jaxel on 23-Jul-2004 14:04:42 (#9453)

Thx for the good tips
Posted by Royam on 23-Jul-2004 17:17:32 (#9455)

I especially liked the IRS inspector and urologist/proctologist versions :D


CVData 3
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-Jul-2004 05:42:04 (#9447)

Just got it, along with CVShuffle. CVD3 has increased functionality and seems to be a little faster. It's still plagued with a few bugs, does not handle Wonging well, but I'm sure Norm will track them down over time.

CVShuffle is interesting, a little cumbersome and it has a limited number of steps it can handle and I have a feeling the more complex shuffles out there might be beyond its capability. But I'm just starting using it, I'll give more details when I become an expert.

Posted by suicyco maniac on 24-Jul-2004 06:50:12 (#9458)

Just getting sick of losing and wanted to vent :-) SM

I'll second that scream
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Jul-2004 09:59:43 (#9460)

Losing sucks. Thanks for screaming for all of us...

I can just imagine this community engaged in one large festival of screams. We need it.

If screaming doesn't work, I suggest amputation.


Posted by Governor on 24-Jul-2004 12:32:08 (#9462)

Do advantage players lose? Should I move to craps?

game session post mortems...
Posted by gehrig on 24-Jul-2004 14:23:54 (#9463)

should be automatic for the "advantage" player. i've noticed that after a losing session, there are contributing factors which i might have controlled.

two problems are wrong game and overbetting one's session bankroll.

laziness cum inertia cause one to "plop" down at a game with less than otherwise acceptable conditions. that means too many players, not enough penetration, slow dealer/other player. in clark county, there is no excuse for that. weekend warriors/visitors or those who play at isolated/tribal venues, may have some pressure to get in so many hours, but not "locals". these days i look at many more tables than i play at. to "play all" tables is worse than "play all" at a 6 or 8 deck shoe.

overbetting one's b.r. as some function of "catch up" is a tail spin of which i've cured myself. but that's an easy trap.

bottom line is to walk by any less than advantageous game. and, do not press any action, whether up or down, beyond some predetermined percentage of your session b.r.

Keeping losses to a minimum.
Posted by Tom on 24-Jul-2004 18:37:07 (#9465)

In my earlier days i too had the problem of getting very agressive when losing only to dig myself into a deeper hole. These days I do just the opposite and bet conservatively when I'm on a terrible swing. An example would be making only a 3 unit bet at 2tc instead of a 4 unit and not get too cocky in higher plus counts. This seems to keep my losses at a minimum,in a sense you can say I'm utilizing kelly betting as a trip bankroll instead of total bankroll with good success.

Keeping losses to a minimum
Posted by blackjackhack on 25-Jul-2004 10:33:56 (#9487)

A losing streak does not necessarily mean that the player is doing anything wrong. You can play the best game in the country, perfectly count with a zillion indices, and still get your ass whooped.

losing streaks
Posted by Tom on 25-Jul-2004 15:01:46 (#9491)

I think everybody here knows that just because we're losing does not mean something is wrong. If we never lost we would all be millionaires. I'm not sure where or why you assume that I said or implied if something's wrong if we're losing. It's all a matter of control and patience more so than saying something's wrong.

You can say that again! *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-Jul-2004 22:47:40 (#9495)

Agree & ...
Posted by CanKen on 25-Jul-2004 08:15:12 (#9483)

My most common mistake is forgetting to spread to two hands when I have the advantage.

Added comment
Posted by CanKen on 25-Jul-2004 08:21:56 (#9484)

I meant to agree with gehrig's post. I can't say that I agree with Tom. It's tempting to pull back when you are losing, but I force myself to bet the count, especially when it is high. To do otherwise is to negate the value of counting.

since the essence of this card counting idea is..
Posted by gehrig on 25-Jul-2004 10:06:31 (#9485)

math, then one must use that math as the rudder. deviations from math must not be based on streaks up or down. bet changes *might* deviate from strict math as an amendment to the act only. rounding is a given.

adjustments to one's wagers based on some "kelley" number in one session aren't important since that session *should* be too short. adjustment to the unit size best be done between sessions, though there are other considerations to any significant changes to one's m.o. as viewed by surveillance. i'll use a consistent bet size based on the joint's radar and my "usual" play there. my concern as an lv "local" is that i be allowed to play repeatedly. tortoise/hare.

Trip bankroll
Posted by Tom on 25-Jul-2004 15:27:34 (#9492)

My adjustments are based on "trip bankroll" bankroll,not based on one mere short session. It might be a good idea to bet conservatively when one loses half the trip bank. I'm not saying cut bets in half and so forth,but tighten up a bit and be patient. In other words if the TC is in between 4 and 5 round down, (instead of up)and dont get too trigger happy,just be patient. Seems to work fine for me. Shooting my guns too fast used to get me in trouble.I'm no longer the agressive type as I used to be. My bankroll has been consistently climbing for 6 years using this patient attack tactic.

Common misconception
Posted by zugszwang on 27-Jul-2004 03:43:40 (#9509)

Not always a good idea to spread to 2 boxes when you have the advantage (unless you are confident that this round is the last before the cutting card). It means you get in less rounds in positive situations. Can be better to spread down from 2 boxes (card eating effect) to 1 with a quite large bet.
From a surveillence point of view, just stick to 1 box or 2 boxes the whole time and don't try to get clever.
I'm sure all methods get some of the money, but it is fairly innacurate to say "spread to more boxes the greater the advantage you have".

Not quite
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 27-Jul-2004 10:29:05 (#9512)

The biggest effect of spreading to two or three hands is reducing the effects of variance. While you do eat cards quicker it's not that significant on a crowded table, which is usually all you ever get to play on here in the East. True- more hands= fewer rounds= lower EV, but more hands= lower SD per round= higher max bet within Kelly= higher win rate.

The other advantage is it makes big spreads a little less obvious. Especially if you are playing behind one of your neighbors.

Re: Misconception
Posted by CanKen on 27-Jul-2004 19:40:30 (#9524)

I don't see how a strategy recommended by Wong, Scheslinger, and others respected for BJ knowledge can be a misconception.
There is a balance to be found between the number of cards you are using up and the amount of money you are putting on the table, and it depends on the number of other players at the table. Wong explains it very clearly in the section "The Optimal Number of Simultaneous Hands", (P.208 of PBJ). His conclusion is that you are better off to play one hand head-up, or two hands if there are other players, when you have an edge.
Of course this assumes that you are sizing your bets correctly, i.e. two hand total equals about 150% of your one hand bet for that count. Schlesinger says pretty much the same.
Also, if the table max is less than your max bet, it may be necessary to play more than one hand to get a profitable bet spread.

Posted by BradRod on 24-Jul-2004 17:56:11 (#9464)

Always keep in mind that losing is just the other side of winning. Back $5500 after a $9300 loss and it feels pretty good. Turn those AAAAAHHHHH's into ahhhhhh's

Posted by suicyco maniac on 24-Jul-2004 20:06:16 (#9467)

....that loss by about a factor of six for my last 400 hours of play and you will understand my dismay :-)

Posted by BradRod on 24-Jul-2004 20:15:51 (#9468)

Sorry to hear about that. I hope that you find yourself in one hell of a correction soon and that you will still have the stomach and the stake for it.

Posted by suicyco maniac on 24-Jul-2004 20:25:14 (#9469)

I have always had a very high pain tolerance especially when it comes to this game but this streak is starting to finally get to me a bit...I am still up a little for the year which helps but anymore it feels like I am counting 10s as plus and low cards as minus I cant even get one of those "lucky streaks" like the ploppies always seem to get...Last night a guy would hit 14 vs a 6 (TC +7) then stand on 12 vs 10 (TC way minus) also he split 6s vs a ten and stood on an 11 (7 of diamonds 4 of clubs) he ended up winning about 400 playing 10 a hand....And no he wasn't getting the hole card or next card info cuz he lost just as many of these crazy plays as he won he just kept getting BJ after BJ after BJ....SM

Makes you want to ask yourself
Posted by BradRod on 24-Jul-2004 20:39:17 (#9470)

.....what is point of going through all the effort of counting when you are in a backslike like that.

When that happens to me I use it as an opportunity to tighten up on discipline. Particularly not playing while stressed out, being sure not to play through the really weak shoes, reviewing my indexes, being alert for possible holes in my counting methodology.

Sometimes during these backslides i have noticed that it seems that many fewer shoes ever get into positive counts and i stay too long. The more frustrating times are where you are playing in very rich shoes and laying heavy bets down but the cards just act perversely from your expectations. That is where i have lost some serious money.

Your tolerance for pain, your overall winnings, and it seems to me you are a veteran player should hold you in until things turn around. You know they will. Just keep playing.

Bad cards
Posted by Governor on 24-Jul-2004 21:47:17 (#9472)

My earlier question has been answered! Is there a counter's dream session awaiting me in Vegas next week?

Posted by The Mayor on 24-Jul-2004 23:14:23 (#9475)

So, we now have a mayor and a governor. We need a sheriff and a police chief. And of course, we need a Michael Jackson...


Re: Governor???
Posted by BradRod on 25-Jul-2004 06:08:56 (#9478)

When we do get a sherrif he should arrest the Governor and charge him with impersonating an elected official or at least insubordination. Maybe if we had a judge who could figure out which would be the appropriate charge

hold it sluggo...
Posted by gehrig on 25-Jul-2004 10:12:21 (#9486)

don't leave me out. as an ordained (albeit by mailorder) minister, i could hear confessions. to maintain the sanctity of supplicant to cleric confidentiality, i promise not to divulge the contents of any confession posted hereon.

"elected officials"
Posted by Governor on 25-Jul-2004 07:55:38 (#9482)

I don't mean to be disrespectful by my posting name. My co-workers used to call me "Governor" several years ago. Apologies if I offended anyone. Will reconsider.

I think it's cute
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Jul-2004 11:17:50 (#9488)

The more mediocre un-elected officials the better, that's what I say!

Maybe add some new weapons?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-Jul-2004 22:55:03 (#9496)

I've found that adding a shuffle track to my counting has helped a lot. It's one way in which you can manufacture your own good luck. Now that I have my counting system down pretty solidly, all of my studies are now devoted to shuffle tracking and Ace sequencing. I'm very new to advantage play but I've figured out that although counting alone can take you far, it can only take you so far, and it can never take you far enough away from this frightening variance.

Posted by suicyco maniac on 26-Jul-2004 01:07:39 (#9497)

I have a few weapons in my arsenal but I would rather keep them quiet..The truth is the better the game the more you bet the more you can lose...SM

Ah there's a problem
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Jul-2004 10:08:37 (#9499)

If you bet significantly more on a game you perceive as good that is contributing to the problem. In our minds a 2% edge is twice as good as a 1% but in reality it's only 1% better. A better game requires a lower bet not higher; that's why shoe play calls for huge spreads and SD can be easily beaten with 1:4. This may be helpful to you, play better games, more Wonging, more use of your other tools, and this will allow you to make the same amount of money with lower bets.

I disagree
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Jul-2004 11:52:28 (#9500)

>A better game requires a lower bet not higher

Nope... the higher your edge, the higher your bet. Otherwise, you are not playing Kelley, and your bankroll will not grow optimally.

A better game will lead to more variance, but those are the breaks. We should not lower our bet to avoid variance, we should be grateful for the variance, it means we are playing the game correctly.


True, but...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Jul-2004 14:56:50 (#9504)

With a given bankroll, you could go from a Kelly bet on a shoe game to half- or quarter- Kelly bet on a good SD game and have the same win rate. Wouldn't a player who is sensitive to these long losing streaks be better off that way?

lower spread.....
Posted by suicyco maniac on 26-Jul-2004 18:30:13 (#9507)

yes but a lower bet no....our bets are sized in relation to our edge to bet in any other manner is not optimal....BTW my concern is not the money it is just the cards I have been getting are way out of whack with what they should be..I dont want to go into details but I am sure Eliot will back up my statements...SM

Posted by The Mayor on 27-Jul-2004 11:07:19 (#9513)

>I dont want to go into details but I am sure Eliot will back up my statements...SM

Consider yourself backed 8-)

Quoting ...
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Jul-2004 23:12:20 (#9474)


You are very impressive. We can all learn a lot from how you are handling this.

A quote from the Heathcliff soundtrack, a song titled "The Gambling Song":






... ...



400 hours
Posted by John on 24-Jul-2004 23:29:45 (#9476)

wow, sorry man. You have my complete respect. I'm not sure I could handle that. If I lose, I don't go conservative. I look for something that I can spread 1 - 40 on. Like a $10 double deck table. What do you think ? I won't sign the trespass slip for you, though. I hope it turns around man and you know I'm rooting for every single person on this forum unless you are a casino employee.

Posted by suicyco maniac on 25-Jul-2004 07:13:01 (#9480)

Eliot will attest that I am certianly not a casino spy....And yes you are right the more I lose the more I seek out good games and practice as far as a 40 to 1 spread I'll just say that I manage to do my fair share of HUGE spreads... SM P.S. lost another Kia at the tables tonight... :(

Posted by John on 25-Jul-2004 13:31:43 (#9489)

SM P.S. lost another Kia at the tables tonight... :(

whoa.....don't know how to respond to that. ?? Now you are going to have me thinking for the rest of the day about that line.

oh, woops, I see what I did
Posted by John on 25-Jul-2004 13:38:22 (#9490)

Oh, the casino employee line. That wasn't directed toward you at all. You know english is not my first language, math is. That is what I always say. Even though I wasn't the best in math, I was probably the worst in english so I had to stick something, right ?

I'm reading some poker books now. I don't think I can read anymore on blackjack. It just isn't interesting me anymore. I'll play it, though. Reading a book on internet poker. I know what I said 4 months ago but can't a guy change his mind. Later.......

When they tell you that you are no longer allowed to play there, laugh at them.

Posted by suicyco maniac on 25-Jul-2004 07:17:10 (#9481)

Theres not a whole lot to learn from me except how to write lllllooonnngggg whiny emails about my latest bad beat story despite playing in some very lucrative conditions.....Thanx for everything you've done for me and all the kind words Eliot..SM

Yes ...
Posted by Syph on 25-Jul-2004 06:42:55 (#9479)

I remember having a bit of a bad spell, not nearly as damning as yours, but over the course of 100 hours I was down about 600 units.

At single deck games.

With 1-8 spreads.

Then Arnold piped up and told me I hadn`t experienced anything near what could be considered a bad losing streak.

I started having second thoughts about this game around that time. That said, I`m reminded of something Alex Mundy also mentioned to me:

"There is only one way to lose at this game, that is by no longer playing it."

Give `em hell SM, we`re rooting for you.


Thanx Syph...
Posted by suicyco maniac on 25-Jul-2004 19:39:01 (#9494)

Believe me I have been giving them hell for quite some time now is just time for me to finally pay my is just starting to wear a little thin in the last week or so and finally getting to me. SM

Amsterdam Days; Jerusalem Nights
Posted by BradRod on 24-Jul-2004 18:53:49 (#9466)

Having recently developed a love interest in Israel. I have discovered BJ play in Europe. I have made trips there in February and in June. In the recent trip using I chose Amsterdam as the site for the stopover (thought there are direct flights to Tel-Aviv) and using KLM as the carrier because of the choices available to me (using Orbitz) Amsterdam / KLM offered the casino connection. Holland Casino is described as:

"Holland Casino Amsterdam is in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands and is open 1:30pm-3am daily, closed may 4th and dec 31. The 92,664 square foot casino features 576 slots and fifty-five table games. The property has one restaurant. "

Of course there was no description offered anywhere of no. of decks, rules of play or depth of penetration. I had in my previous trip (Budapest) experienced European no hole card play which is not entirely bad if you can manage to remember not to put any extra money on the table when the dealer has an A or T showing. Except that it is reasonable to split A's in a high count againt a dealer's T showing.

I thought it would be interesting to check this place out.

Nothing in the trip turned out as planned but I was able to roll with the punches.

My flight from Newark arrived @ 7:30 am local time and the flight departing to TA was to leave at 8:15 pm giving me better than 12 hours of layover. My plan when I booked the trip was to take the train ride from the airport into the city. Do some touring of the city until the casino opened at 1:30 . Play for about four hours then back to the airport for the continuing flight.

The kink in the plan came between the time that I booked the trip and the actual day of travel. i had thought that I would finish my work neatly and have a carefee 10 days of vacations. In spite of my best efforts and a couple of sleepless nights preceeding the trip I had critical work remaining unfinished as I embarked on the trip.

Shiploh Airport Amsterdam has the best equipped business center that I have found in any of my travels. You can use their computer - but I was travelling with my own laptop. You can connect to the internet in at least 3 different ways, send faxes, make phone calls, download and print files and call anywhere in the world in a very comfortable setting with helpful, friendly and competent assistance available. So , in my modified plan I work for a couple of hours at the airport. Get my work done and still get to see some of the city on my way to the casino at opening.

Again the work took longer than I thought --- not helped by the fact that I was dozing off every few minutes from lack of sleep. When I had finally finished everything that I needed to fulfill my work obligations It was after 2:30 pm and I thought a little too risky to venture from the airport for any worthwhile reason.

Shiploh Airport Amsterdam also has a mini Holland Casino. 2 BJ tables, Roulette, Baccarat and some slots. The 2 BJ tables are both CSM's. One 10 Euro minimum, the other 20 Euro min. The 10 Euro min game favored the house even more with the house taking all pushes. the other table did not have this silly, arbitrary rule. Having developed the taste for some play I sat down to play

While the table always seemed full there was a somewhat steady turnover of people catching flights or disgusted at losing too much money. I have never played CSM game but thought it might be just fun to play and get a sense of what the local game might have been like. It seemed much more civil and polite than American venues I have played at but clearly the same greedy casino. For all I know the real Casino in Amsterdam may have all CSM's and I was not missing much by not having gone into the city. Does anybody know ??

I played consistent Basic Strategy with one twist. I varied my bet on a whim occasionally just hoping for a lucky catch. Admittedly not much to offer my AP friends here but in the end I did get lucky I played two sessions totalling about an hour. In between I got some lunch, shopped and wandered around the airport. Total wining on the outbound flight --- up 400 Euros --a little under $500US. Not bad for spending money.

To be continued

Good to see you posting again Brad. *NM*
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Jul-2004 23:53:14 (#9477)

Welcome Back! *NM*
Posted by MrPill on 26-Jul-2004 07:35:19 (#9498)

Newbie questions...
Posted by Quaker639 on 25-Jul-2004 19:09:05 (#9493)

The wealth of knowledge on this site is quite amazing...
I am new to this all... I have been reading this site off and on for the past few months. I have also researched card counting on a couple of other webpages.

I am entering college this year and I'm looking into making card counting part of my life.

One question of mine is what courses in school should I take to help benefit me in card counting... I know math classes but what specific ones.

Also what CC system(s) should I take up...what are your favorite/best ones that once I learn will be the most benefical.

What books are the best for these systems? I know there are the suggested books on this page but which ones are best for the system(s) I should take up?

Any good websites or other computer things I should purchase/read?

Besides gambling what jobs do you all have?

Hope these questions aren't too ignorant/boring

thanks for all the help...

What systems to use
Posted by KennilworthKid on 26-Jul-2004 13:13:40 (#9501)

Well, I am no expert but I will tell you what I have done. I am a recreational player only, I play in Vegas about 3 to 4 times a year. I play mostly for the challenge of winning, although earning some money is nice.

I know both hi-lo and AOII. I am happy with knowing these, as I use hi-lo for shoe games and AOII for 1&2 deck games. Your learning them depends upon you time availability. As a college student, I am not sure how much you will have of that.

Hi-Lo is perhaps the most commonly used system, although Knockout is a comer in this area (it is suppose to be simpler). In simulations by Don Schlessinger, Hi-Lo slightly outperforms Knockout in the games tested (see Chapter 11 of Blackjack Attack 2nd editiion). Hi-Lo & knockout are good if you will spend a long time in a game, such as shoe ones. Betting strategy is most important in shoe games, and these systems have high efficienty ratings with betting strategy while being simple.

I use AOII in hand held games. I took it up as it is one of the most powerful 2 level systems for playing strategy, which plays a larger roll in winning play in the two and one deck games than in the shoe games. It is more difficult to use but in simulations by Schlessinger, it has one of the best win rates. I would also consider Hi-Opt II, as it is even more powerful, and just about as complicated. The problem with Hi-Opt II was that I could not find a book on it, while Blackjack for Blood by B Carlson, which is the AOII book, is available.

A tip, read books for all the systems, as they contain information that will help you regardless of the systems you choose. In addition to the books mentioned above, I have read Beat the Dealer by Thorp, Theroy of Blackjack by Griffin, Blackjack as a Business by Revere, Professional Blackjack by Wong, and Worlds Greatest Blackjack Book by Humble.

Also, there is an on-line course, the link to it is at, that will take you through learning Hi-Lo...and it is free!!

Good luck.

College Courses
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 26-Jul-2004 14:11:25 (#9502)

Check your math department. They should have a course called PROBABILITY.
Also look for STATISTICS. Those two subjects are the closest match with direct applications to blackjack.

Other courses to take
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Jul-2004 15:04:38 (#9505)

I'd recommend some form of quantitative psychology. Your mind is your best ally and your worst enemy at the table, and understanding how we perceive things and how conditions can change that perception is useful. Also how mental abilities change with time, age, fatigue, alcohol, etc.

Finance and banking- understanding what investing in a blackjack bankroll means compared to other forms of investing, the time value of money, risk, tax effects.

Computer programming- learn to write routines to run and test your theoretical predictions and apply them to other games.

Sociology- you have to play the people you meet in the casino, as well as the cards. Other players, bystanders, waitresses, dealers, other advantage players, pit personnel, surveillance and security, casino management. You will need to use (*not* abuse) all of these people in your card counting career and sociology might help understand the human interaction between all of them.