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2 for 1 suited Blackjacks
Posted by jacknero on 31-Aug-2004 18:11:32 (#9935)
My local casino have following promotion:
-2 for 1 suited Blackjacks
-win with a 5, 6 & 7 to add $18 to your winnings
Game is 6d d2 das ns pen 5/6 Limits:min 5 max 100
Could somebody calculate the player edge. I think the player have an edge.
Thanks Jack
What do unsuited BJ's pay? *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 31-Aug-2004 18:29:41 (#9936)
Even money blackjacks are not a good thing
Posted by LVBear584 on 31-Aug-2004 19:13:48 (#9940)
2 for 1 suited Blackjacks
2 for 1 on suited blackjacks = even money on 1/4 of all player blackjacks. Why do you think the player has an edge? What am I missing?
probably means 2 to 1 *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 31-Aug-2004 19:28:28 (#9942)
You're right. Since he made a point of 2 FOR 1, I didn't think so at first *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 01-Sep-2004 11:16:34 (#9952)
Edge
Posted by The Mayor on 31-Aug-2004 20:38:19 (#9944)
The edge for winning with a 5-6-7 paying $18, must be as close to 0 as any promotion I have ever seen.
As for the suited bj, assuming other bj's pay 3:2, a suited BJ comes up every 84.23 hands, with probability:
2x(96/312)*(6*311) = .0119.
And you receive an extra .5 units.
Thus this adds: .5x(.0119) = .0059 = .59% to your edge. If the game was a typical S17, DOA, DAS, RSA game with a house edge of .41%, you now have an edge of about .18% edge over the house without counting.
Woo hoo!
--Mayor
Thanks Mayor *NM*
Posted by jacknero on 31-Aug-2004 22:06:45 (#9948)
Are Women Ever Back Roomed?
Posted by Nina on 31-Aug-2004 18:30:10 (#9937)
This site offers some very interesting stories about harassement, illegal detention and other sorts (legal and otherwise) of intimidation by casinos to keep counters at bay.
My question is... Do female counters meet with the same counter-measures? I know that in general one is less likely to suspect a woman of counting. I just wonder what happens if they do catch on.
I'm an attractive and very petite young woman. I just wonder if someone like me could get "back roomed" or man-handled in an attempt to intimidate me. (Certainly I'd scream bloody murder)
Just wondering if anyone has any insight into this.
A woman back-rromed in 1981
Posted by NealS on 29-Sep-2004 22:23:41 (#10320)
I was with a small group of players using the David blackjack computers in Reno in 1981. One of the operators was a woman named Ann. We all just played individually, no Big Players. At that time, the computer had not been made illegal in Nevada, but it was also a time when people were sometimes found in the desert or in fields with a bullet in the head.
Anyway, one evening she was playing a small casino in Reno. Unfortunately, 23 years later I do not remember the name of the casino. Anyway, she was unlucky enough to be the third person from our group to play there on the same shift that night. I saw her enter just before I left. Later, at an apartment that we shared, she came in screaming bloody murder. She called a lawyer that we had on retainer. I listened as she told him that she noticed that the pit boss was paying a little to much attention to her, and she was just ready to leave. 2 large Security Guards came up behind her and would not let her move. The Pit Boss said that she had to go with them to the "office". She was a very thin, rather frail woman. She said no, and the 2 goons picked her up and carried her as she kicked and screamed to the back room. They photographed her and told her to leave and not come back again or she would be arrested for trespassing. They did not, however, search her, so they did not find the computer and batteries strapped to her legs. When she went out front, she stood on the street for a while and asked people as they left if they saw her being kidnapped. Nobody was willing to talk to her. The lawyer ended up telling her that it would not be worth suing the casino or trying to file any charges. I saw the bruises on her arms, and it was clear that they handled her roughly, but there was nothing that she could do.
Only if they meet me in the bar!
Posted by Sonny on 31-Aug-2004 19:58:57 (#9943)
> My question is... Do female counters meet with the same counter-measures?
Probably not. Although I'm sure a casino would still backroom a female, I seriously doubt if they would take any physical measures.
> I know that in general one is less likely to suspect a woman of counting. I
> just wonder what happens if they do catch on.
They will not backroom you just because you are counting. If they "catch on" they will start to give you obvious signs that they want you to leave such as crowding you, glaring at you and trying to make you feel uncomfortable.
If that doesn't work, they may flat bet you (restrict your betting to one unit at all times), ask you to stop playing blackjack or ask you (usually politely) to leave the casino.
Backrooming is usually reserved for highly skilled high stakes players (teams, front-loaders, etc.) and suspected cheaters.
> I'm an attractive and very petite young woman. I just wonder if someone like
> me could get "back roomed" or man-handled in an attempt to intimidate me.
Again, I seriously doubt that things would get physical. Imagine what would happen when the newspapers print the story that a casino "roughed up" a poor innocent little girl. I don't think a jury (even in Nevada) would let this case go by.
-Sonny-
P.S.- I have been playing VERY aggressively in Las Vegas for years now and have never been backroomed, or even barred. If you heed all the warning signs then you will always be able to leave before things get "heavy."
Backrooming isn't common
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Sep-2004 10:55:36 (#9951)
A casino exposed itself to tremendous liability when they put their filthy rat claws on anyone. Injuries, false imprisonment, kidnapping, extortion, these are just some of the legal issues they risk. With a female involved, the chances of a charge involving sexual abuse are greatly increased. In the old days, they would just have a female security guard or other employee present as a witness, but today in this age of Britney and Madonna that wouldn't mean very much.
My advice is that under no circumstances do you go in the back room with them. That is one time I would fight. See the only reason they would take you there is because they are planning on doing something they don't want anyone to see. That can't be good. You could be dealing with a renegade security guard (and they are everywhere) who really is contemplating a sexual assault. So be careful. But don't worry, worry will distract you from counting.
Rights
Posted by Nina on 01-Sep-2004 11:31:48 (#9953)
Ok, that leads me to my next question... If I do nothing illegal (which of course I don't intend on) and they do ask me to go somewhere else in the casino with them, I am under no obligation to go? Further, if they insist can I demand to not go anywhere unless law enforcement is called?
Although I think it to be unlikely, I am very curious as to my rights. I believe anyone that doesn't know exactly what their rights are inevitably has them violated in some way. What is the proper response in such a circumstance?
Your rights
Posted by Sonny on 01-Sep-2004 16:51:53 (#9956)
> If I do nothing illegal (which of course I don't intend on) and they do ask
> me to go somewhere else in the casino with them, I am under no obligation
> to go?
That is right. Even if you do something illegal you are not obligated to go to a back room.
> Further, if they insist can I demand to not go anywhere unless law
> enforcement is called?
This is exactly what you should do. If the casino thinks that you are cheating then they have the right to "detain" you until the police arrive. They DO NOT have the right to lock you up or take you to a back room. If they ask you to go to a back room, your best defense is to ask that the police be called. In fact, you do not even need to show them any ID until the police arrive.
Also, ask what you are being charged with. If they are not charging you with a crime then you are free to leave whenever you want.
> I believe anyone that doesn't know exactly what their rights are inevitably
> has them violated in some way.
You are exactly right. If you don't know your rights, how can you protect them?
-Sonny-
Get the Casino Abuse of Skilled Players DVD *LINK*
Posted by Al Rogers on 01-Sep-2004 18:49:15 (#9960)
You will learn a lot from it.
DVD
Posted by suicyco maniac on 01-Sep-2004 19:44:35 (#9963)
When I bought my copy it was only availible on VHS AAAAAAHHHHH!!!!! SM
We will exchange it for the DVD
Posted by Al Rogers on 01-Sep-2004 22:47:39 (#9966)
Send it to me at Pi Yee Press, 4855 West Nevso Drive; Las Vegas, NV 89103, with a copy of this post, and we'll send you the DVD at no charge.
Al Rogers
Al@bj21.com
WHAT IS IT WITH YOU GUYS AT BJ21!
Posted by Learning to count on 02-Sep-2004 07:52:48 (#9970)
Your always treating the customer like he was "RIGHT" or something! Every time I deal with Peeyee Press/BJ21 (Al Rogers) I get treated royaly. So this may be why I continue to do business with you guys!!!! All joking aside BJ21/Stanford Wong always backs their products and treats their customers 100% above and beyond the call of duty. Keep up the good work Al!!!!!
Does the Same Offer Extend to me and Others, as well? *NM*
Posted by Radar on 03-Sep-2004 16:53:56 (#9991)
Yes *LINK*
Posted by Al Rogers on 03-Sep-2004 17:56:21 (#9992)
There was never a time when we had only VHS available. We had both VHS and DVD from day one. Eventually, we phased out the VHS, and now have only DVD's.
Same heat depending on level of play *LINK*
Posted by TwuntyWun on 03-Sep-2004 11:49:51 (#9988)
"My question is... Do female counters meet with the same counter-measures? I know that in general one is less likely to suspect a woman of counting. I just wonder what happens if they do catch on."
I have been subject to the same intimidation and counter-measures (actually a little more) than my male friends. As my action is fairly light this has been nothing I couldn't handle. Glares, snide comments, suddenly bad pen, crowding, distraction, and politely told, "any other game but BJ" --that sort of thing. Although on one occasion, I admit to being fearful as a result of the level of intimidation I received. It seemed to include a cheating dealer and veiled threats. I got out before it got any uglier, so I have no idea how far that would have gone. I don't think anyone gets "backroomed" at my level though, unless they are clearly cheating. I believe backrooming is generally reserved for high-rolling pros, team members, people suspected of cheating, etc.
In several instances when I have been made the casino staff is either amused (and have even shown a little admiration) or angry (like they feel betrayed that a woman would do that to them-- or maybe a little foolish that they let a woman do that to them?) I suspect women have a better chance of getting the first (amused) reaction than men, but may be just as likely to get the second (angry.)
In Munchkin's Gambling Wizards, he interviews Cat Hulbert. The following is an excerpt from a John Grochowski Review:
"There were rough times. She tells of a situation in which she had been barred from playing blackjack in a casino, and the next day carelessly chose the same shift when she went back to play. Hulbert was spotted instantly, and wasn't just asked politely to leave. Security guards grabbed her by the shoulders, pushed her head to the craps table and said to her, "Why don't you play some craps with that cheating money of yours? How about some roulette? But don't you ever, ever come into this casino and play blackjack again."
Keep in mind that Cat was a member of Uston's team, so I suspect her level of play was likely to draw this type of attention. (The times were different then as well.) At that level, then or now, I think gender doesn't matter at all.
September Podium will be late
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Sep-2004 17:25:47 (#9958)
Just back from Costa Rica, leaving again this weekend for somewhere else. You know the story ... yada yada 8-)
I just finished the first complete draft of the blackjack book I have been writing for about 4 years now. Most of the content appears on this site in some form, but it will be organized in book form. It is meant for ploppies, not for experts, a vain hope that we can get a few more educated gamblers playing at the tables, or at least, a few more that will reject 6:5.
--Mayor
Marketing is everything
Posted by Rob V. on 01-Sep-2004 18:13:13 (#9959)
"It is meant for ploppies, not for experts, a vain hope that we can get a few more educated gamblers playing at the tables"[1]
PR Rule #1: Perhaps calling them 'ploppies' is -EV. lol
Seriously, congratulations, and here's hoping that you win over a few.
- Rob Vega
1. Jacobson, Eliot. _Blackjack for Ploppies_. BJR Publishing, 2004.
Hey I'm a ploppy too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Posted by Learning to count on 02-Sep-2004 07:46:50 (#9969)
I want the first printed book Mayor; autographed of course! It is sure to be a hot seller!!!
May all the hurricanes...
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Sep-2004 10:00:33 (#9974)
miss you
Thanks Mayor
Posted by Tom on 02-Sep-2004 08:57:58 (#9972)
Good luck with your new book. Dont forget to also write about how nasty those csms are. Hey,do I have to be a ploppy to buy the book!?
12-spot blackjack
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Sep-2004 00:47:20 (#9967)
One of the stores where I play has a 8D pit with tables that have two betting circles for each player on the baize. About half the players play 2 spots and the rest one. I tend to like it because then I always have an opportunity to play 2 hands. But I have no way to simulate a game with up to 12 hands being dealt, can anyone think of any other advantages or disadvantages to playing at this kind of table?
If..........
Posted by Learning to count on 02-Sep-2004 08:01:44 (#9971)
......you have penetration of one deck or less and all the right rules (split 4 aces, double after a split, surrender,spread one to two hands at will etc.) could be an excellent game to wong or play heads up on. My only issue then is that it is eight decks! Any chance telling us where it is autoape??
Where it is
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Sep-2004 09:12:54 (#9973)
It's at Mohegan Sun in CT. Probably not worth the trip for you, even though it has all the good rules except resplitting aces. You can hunt around for 1.5 deck pen. I Wong these games, and the thing I like about all those hands is that it gets you where you are going quickly. On the down side, it gets you out of good counts just as quickly, but that's blackjack.
In Detroit.......
Posted by MrPill on 02-Sep-2004 10:41:28 (#9976)
.....they have starting using some of these tables. On these tables they have changed the game from a S17 to H17.
When I asked them about the change of rules one casino said "It was to help the casino offset the player not having to double his minimum bet for the privilege of playing two spots".
Yeah, right!
Pill
better drink a lot of red bull to play 8dk because its bull *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 03-Sep-2004 00:32:53 (#9985)
Mayor gets Published!.....
Posted by phantom007 on 02-Sep-2004 10:17:37 (#9975)
Just received my 2 copies of McDowell's "BJ Ace-Prediction" book. Yes, 2 copies...figured if the book lives up to its "pre-publication" publicity, I would wear at least one out.
Anyhow, have not had time to study the book(s) yet, but in scanning the Index, saw many familiar names, including "Eliot Jacobson", p.29. A brief scan of "his" section implies that many previous estimations of "Ace-1st-card" values have been incorrect...The Mayor set them straight!
Congratulations Mayor on your recognition!
Will also look good on your resume'.
ph.7.
Not exactly setting them straight
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Sep-2004 11:11:02 (#9977)
I just wrote something to help put into perspective the value of the material in the book.
The book is fantastic, isn't it? An immediate classic.
About the book...
Posted by Sentry on 02-Sep-2004 13:31:35 (#9979)
Mayor, Congratulations on your inclusion in this notable book! I've been holding off ordering it, but maybe you can help me decide. Does the book have information only for shoe games, or will it help the pitch player as well?
Sentry
It is best for shoe games
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Sep-2004 13:50:45 (#9980)
Shuffle tracking works best on shoes, as the greater number of cards means that there is more work to be done to really get them shuffled, so people tend to be lazier/sloppier.
Get it any way!
--Mayor
My Kelly math
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Sep-2004 21:17:38 (#9984)
I've decided to recalculate my spread using an approximation for Kelly proportional betting that I found online: Bet= Bankroll * (Advantage/Variance)
I used IBA% becuase that's just what I'm used to using- my first question is whether that or TBA% is more appropriate.
Here are my results for two games I play, I was surprised:
Game 1: 8D, 1.5 pen, S17, DOA, DAS, LSR, BU = $10, Wong out at -2
TC Advantage Variance Bet (rounded)
2 0.00155 1.308 $10
3 0.00411 1.304 $30
4 0.00635 1.301 $50
5 0.00987 1.297 $75
6 0.01139 1.298 $90
7 0.01525 1.298 $120
8 0.01729 1.305 $130
Game 2: 6D, 1.5 pen, S17, DOA, DAS, LSR, BU= $10, Wong out at -2
TC Advantage Variance Bet
2 0.00247 1.308 $20
3 0.00534 1.303 $40
4 0.00776 1.3 $60
5 0.01107 1.296 $80
6 0.0134 1.298 $100
7 0.01683 1.297 $130
8 0.01896 1.303 $150
What was so surprising is how much the bet changed, especially on the low end, just by changing from 8D to 6D. This would make the 6D a significantly better game, even more than just the small advantage caused by a smaller number of decks. So my second question: did I do this right?
What was your First Question?....
Posted by phantom007 on 04-Sep-2004 23:20:07 (#10007)
As to your 2nd Question, I just don't know....I do not fully understand your #'s.
I feel that in general, and most of THE BOOKS agree, that SD is better than DD is better than 6D is better than 8D is better than Infinite-D is better than 6:5, etc. I suggest only, that CSM's may actually be better than Infinite-D.
That is presuming rules/pen. otherwise the same, and that you are a "Play-All" type of guy/gal.
One of the books in my BJ library, which is now extensive enough that I cannot find it right now, suggests that IF you make your Max. Bet at above TC = +5, then:
---In approx. #'s: 24/12/6% for SD/DD/6D. Thus, if #100 hands/hour, one gets about #24 Max. bet opportunities in SD, #12 in DD, etc.
---Therefore, depending on whether you are a Compulsive Extrapolator, or a Recreational Extrapolator, one can extrapolate that in 8D, you only get Max. Bet chances 2-4% of the time/hands.
Now for True Wongers, wherein about 1/2 of DD games and most all SD games prohibit mid-shoe entry, 6D is the game of choice. Certainly, in 8D, once one gets to strongly Pos. Ct.'s, they last much longer, but for most of us, we would be asleep by the time they came around.
Maybe this helps explain the #'s that you generated.
Wonder if 6:5 BJ allows Mid-shoe entry?
GRIN!
phantom007.
First question is IBA% vs. TBA%...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-Sep-2004 13:14:20 (#10010)
... for calculating Kelly bets. Oh one thing I left out, these numbers are for a bankroll of $10K. What I've done is set up a spreadsheet. It includes a summation of all my assets available for blackjack, and another section with the advantages at different true counts for all the games I play. As my bankroll changes, I can just look down to the spot with the game I'm playing that night and it gives me my Kelly bets for that game as a function of TC.
6:5 mid-deck entry: yeah I started that fight awhile back. It's allowed. The numbers reveal that Wonging 6:5 SD is about as profitable as playing a lousy 8D game so Wonging the 6:5 isn't worth it unless you are really bored or desparate.
getting sick from-
Posted by eyesfor21 on 03-Sep-2004 11:03:48 (#9987)
all the losers/dreamers/drinkers and mostly all the cig smoke..
I seem to be coughing all the time..
anybody else having similar effects,ideas?
I Know What You Mean
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Sep-2004 16:17:08 (#10005)
Playing later at night (early morning) is definitely the way to go. I can also say all that you mention is much easier to take while winning. It's the losing streaks that really magnify the problems you mention.
#1...Start Smoking....
Posted by phantom007 on 03-Sep-2004 13:06:46 (#9989)
#2...Start Drinking, or just skip #1 and do lots of #2, then you will not care about #1.
#3...Losers/Dreamers are WONDERFUL...We want Casino's to make lots of $$$ from their BJ tables. Just not from us!
#4...Proventil Inhaler, 2 puffs every 4 hours as needed...also good "Backroom Insurance"...if they try to drag you off, start choking, gagging, sucking your inhaler, and demand an ambulance.
#5...Flonase Nasal Spray...nearly as effective as #4 for allergy prevention, though would not be as likely to keep you from being "backroomed". Rolling in the floor with a bottle of nosespray in you left nostril is not as frightening to a layperson.
#6...Singulair 10mg at bedtime...will need to take at least 3 days consecutively before going to casino, and throughout stay.
#7...Ask players who are sitting down at your table something like: "I am a p#ssy. Smoke really bothers me. Would you mind not smoking while I am here?"
Many smokers are actually nice folks, and will comply. I personally would say "f#ck-off", and light up several at the same time, just to get heads-up action.
#8...Heroin. Yes Heroin, a strong opiate, and a very effective cough suppressant.
And a few other ideas, albeit more Radical, include:
#9...seek out non-Smoking tables that most casinos now offer. Very easy to find. They are usually the empty ones.
#10...seek out non-Smoking casinos. Very Hard to find...they keep going out of business. A number of years ago, some store across the street from the Stardust tried this....I think now it is a Walgreens or T-shirt shop or something.
Hope these ideas help.
phantom007.
Ah,you poor thing^)
Posted by Tom on 04-Sep-2004 00:06:01 (#9996)
Are you one of them that fears getting cancer if someone is smoking a cig in front of you? Are you scared of the dark too;)?
You may have a point.
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Sep-2004 08:22:01 (#9997)
"""all the losers/dreamers/drinkers and mostly all the cig smoke..
I seem to be coughing all the time..
anybody else having similar effects,ideas?"""
Smoke
Posted by oldnewbie on 04-Sep-2004 14:35:21 (#10000)
Excellent advice! The casinos are almost habitable at 4:00 AM.
BTW, I quit smoking 20 years ago, and now I can sing in the opera and don't have to count cards to make a living. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
good advice
Posted by eyesfor21 on 04-Sep-2004 12:27:59 (#9999)
No I am not afraid of getting big c,
but sick of coughing all the time.
Tom you sound like a smoker, most of us counters are said to be
of a higher degree intelligence,you may be lacking that one.
You may have a second good point! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Sep-2004 14:56:37 (#10001)
yeah,really awesome advice!!
Posted by Tom on 04-Sep-2004 16:13:40 (#10004)
i hope you learned something of value.
Tommy you started with the sarchasm....
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Sep-2004 17:16:17 (#10006)
all eyes said is that he was tired of the smoke and a44holes. this is the result of a card counter who is obviously playing long sessions. WHhn I started out I perfected my game by such long sessions too. It was torture at times trying to count play and act the part all the while learing how to handle the harsh environment. SO lets just all try to get along!
It's called joking
Posted by Tom on 05-Sep-2004 10:32:53 (#10008)
have a sense of humor. Going to a casino and expecting a utopia world is dreaming. It's something you have to learn to live with.
Does any one else think that tommy....
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Sep-2004 13:43:44 (#10012)
is a sarchastic joker or is it just me.
Sarcasm
Posted by revereman on 06-Sep-2004 20:25:14 (#10024)
So, he was a little sarcastic. I think you and others who are offended are overreacting. His remarks got a little bit more biting when he was attacked, but he didn't wrote anything that terrible. Counters need a thick skin. Also remember that people are alot tougher anonymously online than in real life. Don't sweat the small stuff.
Good point revereman!
Posted by Learning to count on 06-Sep-2004 21:10:06 (#10027)
You guys must be tough and have alligator skin! I am just a wimp myself and my feelings get hurt oh so easy. I am giving up card counting and I am going to join the peace corp! Thanks
Good Luck
Posted by revereman on 07-Sep-2004 09:15:48 (#10032)
If you really want to do some good in the world, you may want to join the Peace Corps instead of some big company called the Peace Corp. If you choose the right location, you can make some alligator shoes and belts (or maybe purses?) to match your new tough alligator skin.
Pretty weak response. I expected bettr from you.
drinking,joking,smoking,acting,etc.
Posted by Tom on 04-Sep-2004 16:10:41 (#10003)
....is part of the game,most (intelligent) card counters know this. Drinking bottled water all the time while seriously staring at the cards and bets while trying to concentrate in total silence and fresh air is a sure sign of an inexperienced struggling card counter who lacks(oxygen)intelligence. It is also a dead give'away to the pit boss. I've seen the pit laugh at these types,get the drift?
I've been told that by dealers
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-Sep-2004 13:23:02 (#10011)
They've told me that counters never drink or smoke, talk to anyone, and they stare at the cards. I took a sip of my martini, looked him in the eye and said "No sh!t, really?" I've better than average peripheral vision and pattern recognition so that helps me a lot with table deportment. Smoking is something I'd never do but not smoking and being offended by smoke is common enough these days, especially in the Northeast (where California smoking rules are becoming the standard), that it isn't a giveaway as a person like a counter who doesn't belong.
Want to clear out a table? Get a book of matches and start striking them, one by one, and staring at them as they burn in your fingers.
I have noticed that the casino
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Sep-2004 13:52:26 (#10013)
get uptight when you are beating the $hit out of them. As far as the casino throwing a person out for all of the above reasons well then maybe that place is not worth playing at. Besides most of the heat i have experienced is when I am betting black. It takes big moeny to win big money and then the heat comes. I know there have been times when a back off comes when ya win a couple a hundred and the pit monkey pi$$es in his pants. But most big problems occur when they notice your winning and expert play. It just looks obvious. Sometimes all the bull$hit acting just dont work. You have to hit them fast and hard and you have to keep one eye on the game one eye on the Pit monkeys and both eyes on the exit door. The smoking by all the degenerates around you still sux and am tired of it as well! Keep on counting and keep a positive EV.
It's like any other kind of surveillance
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-Sep-2004 16:26:21 (#10015)
There are more players than surveillance slaves, so they obviously can't watch everybody all the time. Profiling is where they start, just like the police do. If you are spreading, they wil catch you if they evaluate your play, sooner or later. But if your look or your behavior match the profile of a counter that they are assuming, you will be the first person's play that they evaluate and you wll be ejected sooner rather than later. All an act does is buy you time.
a tip for four eyeballs
Posted by Tom on 06-Sep-2004 01:52:31 (#10018)
One eye on the pit,one one the game and a two eyeballs on the door!?
Pit boss.. "What the hell does this guy keep looking around and staring at me for,is something wrong?"
It's a good idea to just have fun and dont freak out on your surroundings.
Uh,is it a sarcasion, or just a tip for the young lad?
pitstiff #101...
Posted by gehrig on 06-Sep-2004 11:32:39 (#10019)
employees and players who look around for the 'stiff do so prior to making a "move".
eye contact, even a couple of times a session with the 'stiff, indicates a weak act. the skilled player must sense the 'stiff's position/attention, with no more than peripheral vision. if i do get incidental eye contact, i'll immediately go on offense, possibly whining about something, or mebbe badgering the 'stiff for some freebies. the "act" means that you are on stage, under the spotlight, in view of multiple game protection employees.
Boy Scout Blackjack
Posted by Sonny on 06-Sep-2004 13:42:41 (#10020)
> One eye on the pit,one one the game and a two eyeballs on the door!?
> Pit boss.. "What the hell does this guy keep looking around and staring at
> me for,is something wrong?"
I don't think he was advocating "staring" at the pit bosses. There are numerous ways to observe people and events without ever looking directly at them (or without them knowing).
I happen to agree that it is crucial to "be aware" of your surroundings when you are playing. You must know when you are getting heat, what is causing it and what to do about it. Is your large bet spread giving you away, or was it a floorman that recognized you? You have to "feel out" each casino in order to know how much you can get away with before they cut you off.
Like the boys scouts say, "Be Prepared." When the pit bosses start circling like vultures on a dead weasel, you don't want to be running around trying to escape like an arsonist looking for a fire exit. You should know where the exits are and where the crowds tend to be. None of the above traits will make you look suspicious to the pit, but they could easily add to your longevity at any casino.
> It's a good idea to just have fun and dont freak out on your surroundings.
I wish more floormen had your attitude: "This guy has been winning black chips all day long. I know he's counting, but I'm not going to freak out about it." This kind of play may work for a red chip player, but anyone who wants to make decent money at this needs to have a solid Plan B.
It is important to not look suspicious (or, in this case, paranoind) while playing, but I think you have to be aware of you surroundings in order to be in control of them. If you can leave just before they get the chance to tap you on the shoulder then you are in control, not them. You have to play your game and still be one step ahead of their game. A good player should know how to do this without looking guilty.
-Sonny-
You got the drift. *NM*
Posted by Tom on 06-Sep-2004 01:36:12 (#10017)
Now for sale: Blackjack Ace Prediction
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Sep-2004 18:40:14 (#9993)
We now have David McDowell's destined to be a classic book, "Blackjack Ace Prediction," for sale in our online store.
I love the quote on the back cover: "... the final chapter in advantageous blackjack play -- as the cat has finally been let out of the bag." (Michael Dalton).
By the way, how many of us have ever let an actual cat out of an actual bag? That may be the subject for next month's poll.
--Mayor
Cats and Bags
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Sep-2004 18:42:13 (#9994)
I found this using Google...
Let the Cat Out of the Bag
This phrase meaning to disclose a secret is from an old scam of selling someone a suckling pig at market and then surreptitiously substituting a cat for the pig. If one lets the cat out of the bag, then the secret is revealed and the fraud discovered. The scam dates to at least 1530, but the phrase doesn't make its appearance until 1760. See also: Pig in a Poke. The phrase is most assuredly not a reference to the bag that held a cat 'o nine tails onboard ship. The phrase is not nautical in origin as some maintain.
I think the weather is a fraud....
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Sep-2004 08:25:12 (#9998)
Another near miss Eliot but I am still breathing out here on this god for saken little island!!!! Three months left of H season then we can breath! SO you like tis book? I may have to buy one and look at the pictures!
Yet another extended absense
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Sep-2004 12:46:42 (#10009)
Leaving today ...
Back sometime between 09/12 and 09/15.
--Mayor
Mayor you should sell or give
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Sep-2004 13:53:56 (#10014)
me the site your never home anymore. It must be nice to be a world traveler
You couldn't afford it!
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Sep-2004 17:34:28 (#10016)
But if you insist, please send me $1,000,000 in small unmarked bills, and it's yours.
Heat when Splitting 10s?
Posted by Nina on 06-Sep-2004 17:21:34 (#10021)
Someone brought up an interesting point. When sitting on a table and a fellow player takes it upon themselves to point out how splitting 10s is always a stupid play (thus bringing attention to you); I imagine there could be several variations of these: an angry player, someone genuinely trying to help, etc...
How do you respond?
Depends
Posted by Learning to count on 06-Sep-2004 21:07:16 (#10025)
If he makes a comment about it when you are in a big positive count and you have a big bet out go with it. If you lose say "man that was stupid; why dont you keep your f%cking mouth shut ya see what bad luck you brought me; A$$hole!"
If you win the big bet be aware; watch for the run for the phone; or the suits and get ready to grab the chips and run. I ussually tell the idiot " hey you should be a sports announcer you have a big enough mouth. Or every time they make a stupid move against basic strategy I make noise about thier screwwing up the flow for everyone else. I also play with a team and we put pressure on big mouths. Everyone complains about his bitching calling him bad luck. If you run and hide the pit will notice you as a danger. If you go on the defensive then you may be left alone.
splitting 10's
Posted by Grift on 13-Sep-2004 16:06:26 (#10085)
just say:"hey-i might win double,can't you see?"
What happened to Posts?!
Posted by phantom007 on 06-Sep-2004 21:07:20 (#10026)
Me and somebody else punched in Funny posts as regarding "Mayor's Absence". They just got "blipped off". What is going on?
ph.7.
They were funny but they belonged on the non BJ page. *NM*
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Management on 06-Sep-2004 21:12:30 (#10028)
still awainting my post to monkey on non page *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 06-Sep-2004 22:19:57 (#10030)
Are you having a problem with your password...
ADMIN>AdminPost
Posted by Management on 07-Sep-2004 15:54:40 (#10034)
you are unmoderated at this time.
Wait a minute.
Posted by anon on 06-Oct-2004 21:08:26 (#10404)
"you are unmoderated at this time."
This means that some posters post without review? Would that include the ones fawning over you and villifying anyone unlike their stunted selves?
Please e-mail me if this is the case, and you decide not to post this one either.
Need Advice - Ploppy Trouble
Posted by Scooter on 06-Sep-2004 23:25:00 (#10031)
I have a ploppy problem. This one guy caught me in action once when everything was working. He said I look like someone he knows and started calling me "genius" because everytime I put out a stack of chips, I win.
It seems lately, everytime I am at a table, this guy comes up and yells out "Hey genius". Then goes on to regale the table and dealer and pit crew with his story about how I always win my big bets. It pretty much kills any hope of continuing after that.
I have tried telling him he has me mistaken for someone else. I have tried giving him a very COLD shoulder. Looking him dead in the eye and telling him to shut up. This guy just won't leave me alone. Everywhere I go, he seems to be there. I don't have many casinos to choose from, so it's not like I can just go somewhere else.
Any ideas? I am considering having him whacked. JK.
some of us
Posted by eyesfor21 on 07-Sep-2004 18:08:27 (#10037)
some of us play for a living and I would appreciate you
keep a tight lip,many casinos kick out good players,UNDERSTAND!
Ploppy Trouble
Posted by BlackJackHack on 07-Sep-2004 20:13:18 (#10038)
Act like a moron. Never say anything remotely intelligent. Celebrate wildly when you win. Get angry when you lose. In other words, act like a degenerate ploppy.
When you win, tell the ploppy you were just lucky and that he should have seen you the other night when you lost your shirt.
Sounds like you're going to the same store too often if players recognize you. If you live in a one store town, and want/need to play there more than once every few weeks, you had better work on your act.
Just keep playing
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Sep-2004 22:21:21 (#10040)
He will see you lose big too, and you can take that to the bank.
Ploppy stalking
Posted by Big Cowboy on 08-Sep-2004 08:33:52 (#10041)
When you lose a big one, throw a bunch of insults in his direction about mucking up the cards, flow, etc. Don't stop until he gets the point or leaves or both. Make sure you have a bunch of drinks in front of you too when that happens.
I second this. *NM*
Posted by Greasy John on 16-Sep-2004 22:56:34 (#10142)
two possibilities...
Posted by gehrig on 08-Sep-2004 12:40:40 (#10045)
either he is *not* a ploppy and simply wants to blow you out of the joint. i've done that. getting a semi-skilled player 86'd: enhances your cover; could explain away a table shortfall; should extend your playing time at that joint.
or, you act is so poor so as to be obvious to even a "ploppy". then, unless you are losing, the joint is aware of your threat and your time is limited.
Blackjack IQ?
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Sep-2004 13:41:45 (#10033)
Your blackjack IQ: 163
Current average blackjack IQ: 118
How much was a perfect score? zg
Failing IQ Tests? ;-)
Posted by cyrano on 07-Sep-2004 16:04:26 (#10035)
Go down the list of all the ones you are fuzzy about and change those answers and then click the compute at the bottom for a better score.. ;-) I'm a bit curious about #5.. You mean you DON'T need to show ID to a cop when requested? I thought the Supreme Court decided this year that you do. Also, who's Inga? Did we ever figure that out? and LVHCM???
Inga
Posted by SammyBoy on 08-Sep-2004 11:21:51 (#10044)
She was Ken Uston's girlfriend, I believe. Supposedly very attractive.
Her photo is in two books on BJ *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 12-Sep-2004 04:57:05 (#10071)
Along with a few others
Posted by Sonny on 12-Sep-2004 15:15:06 (#10073)
There are quite a few ladies pictured in the book. Is it the one labeled "NANNY - the best 4 years ever"?
-Sonny-
Supreme Court Ruling
Posted by Counter-Intelligence on 12-Sep-2004 16:27:31 (#10076)
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040621-115845-6435r.htm
Yep...
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Sep-2004 09:40:04 (#10082)
The answer to that question should be changed in the test (unfortunately).
The S.C. really missed this one badly.
--Mayor
Scairy!
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Sep-2004 13:39:37 (#10084)
Just be careful on this ruling. I always cooperate with the cops. If they tell you that they are doing a criminal investigation on you. Do not say a thing and ask for a attorney. You still have to give your Identity to them. See if you can leave the casino property when you do so. One good thing casino security still cannot force you to reveal your Identity. Even though many of them think they are cops. I am sure that corrupt LV police officers will turn around and give the casino the Information later. Be careful ouy there and play safe!
Perfect is 200
Posted by The Mayor on 12-Sep-2004 18:55:48 (#10078)
But, like all IQ tests, it is not really an accurate measurement beyond the 2nd Standard Deviation. You are way beyond that...
Playing conditions in Puerto Rico
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Sep-2004 09:57:11 (#10042)
I'm planning a vacation there, and there are a lot of casinos, but I can't find much info on rules, pen and other playing conditions. Anybody ever play there?
What they think of card counters
Posted by Mr. V on 08-Sep-2004 09:58:30 (#10043)
Predictable perspective from the casino staff.
http://www.gamingfloor.biz/forum/showthread.php?s=b559f6c0cd97d70a8e1b76647777dafd&threadid=1216
Right on!
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 08-Sep-2004 23:53:14 (#10048)
Really liked what Victoria and Al had to say. Thank you for your contribution.
My favorite part...
Posted by Sonny on 09-Sep-2004 11:00:39 (#10050)
...was when that Ian guy called him "Edward O'Thorp". I didn't know Thorp was Irish!
It seems like that Jennifer chick is only concerned with high-stakes teams, not individual counters. She obviously doesn't work at the places I go to! I wish more managers were like her.
-Sonny-
problem with pitstiff differentation of team play...
Posted by gehrig on 09-Sep-2004 13:42:20 (#10051)
and the usual suspect counter, is that each may involve a player entering the table during a positive count. that could be a loner-wonger, or a big player called in by a non-descript, table minimum/flat betting, seated player. pitstiffs might attempt to add to, pull up whatever i.d. they have on any possible accomplices. running the names through the various databases may turn up associations. central credit, the in house/corporate group player profiles, and others. were i involved, i'd give the wonger/possible big player team member, a little rope and carefully review the tapes on those tables he "entered mid-deck". then i'd try to follow him (cameras) to his vehicle. plate numbers can be run, even those from rental agencies. he and any possible confederates at those tables he wonged into would be suspect. when you are on the camera without the usual distractions and noise, you can focus your attention with *several* cameras on a player, even the feet. any repetitious motions or affected movements become obvious.
many joints share hotel registration information. a slot scam was uncovered when a common, home address was found for a jackpot winner and a gaming control board employee. no different would be common hotels for team members. i'm not sure that a successful team would be wise to use any common site for even meals or lodging, anywhere in the u.s. were the play to be in nevada. instantaneous file sharing between even competitive licensees nationally is reality.
BS Variations : 6D H17
Posted by Illusion on 08-Sep-2004 17:44:17 (#10046)
Could some one please post or send me in the right direction for the variations for a 6D H17 game. If possible list them from most to least important.
Think it's about time I learnt them. BJ school lesson 14 over at BJ21.com has 6D S17 variations no H17 :(, but doesn't list them from most to least important.
Any help appreciated, Thanks Illusion.
Trip Report
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 08-Sep-2004 23:28:12 (#10047)
Finally got in some playing time totaling 19.5 hours in the last couple trips. For the time invested, my total return was 252 units. Nice to be headed upwards again. :-)
Some of the time on one of the trips I used a player card. I find that when I use the card I don't feel the freedom to wong-out and go to another table nearly as often. Therefore, I'm playing more negative EV shoe games when using the card. Without the card, if the shoe dumps to -1.5TC in the first couple hands, I,m gone. I can't realize that kind of freedom if the card is still in the hands of the pit stiff. Even if I get the card back before the count goes south, I feel that they feel more of an obligation to keep an eye on me, such as; when I'm in, when I'm out, where I'm at, what I am doing standing behind the other players just watching, etc, etc.
I don't like being tracked. This is one major reason. I think this is a problem issue for us shoe players and I haven't figured a way to fix it.
beyond EV?
Posted by sam on 09-Sep-2004 08:12:51 (#10049)
SB,
How much did your win exceed your EV?
Never calculated my EV yet
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 09-Sep-2004 21:31:55 (#10053)
This is an area of the math that I'm not yet sure of. Need some help to calc it.
Using 1 to 22 spread on 6D.
Wonging-in about 75% of the time at +1 or better, about 25% start at new shoe.
Always wong-out at no worse than -1.5.
Two hands almost always at +2 or more.
Played 19.5 hrs.
Won 252 units.
Yes Sammy Boy, the wife watched me win about 60 units in the last half of one shoe. However, the day before she watched me lose about 35 units in one shoe. She's beginning to understand now what it is that I do. She's also becoming more confident that I don't have a compulsive behavior with $. She now knows it's a hell of a lot better and a lot less expensive than me taking up golf. In the beginning, I told her it's either golf or BJ. I have found that having a wife who has been very negative and difficult about BJ has made me have to perform at my best. There is just no room for not being as sharp as possible. For now, if I don't win at least in the medium run, my game is toast.
Good work
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-Sep-2004 23:47:27 (#10054)
If you can get away with Wonging in and out like that on 6D with a 1:22 spread, your EV is probably around 3 BU per hundred hands, assuming you have good rules like LSR and S17. That's a pretty nice setup you have there, can't get much better with shoe play. My guess is that the Wonging in buys you less than any of the other features of your play, and probably arouses more suspicion than any other, so if you need to modify that would be the first feature I eliminate. Just my opinion, the experts here may disagree.
By the way, I bought a new truck with last year's winnings and ever since my SR has been much more amenable to my play! She worries if I haven't been for a while and encourages me to go out, and now when she picks vacation spots for us she aims for places that have casinos so I can play while she relaxes on the beach. Money talks, BS walks. Don't forget that successful counters are among a rarefied elite of people in terms of their understanding of game theory and gaming math so you can't count on anyone understanding anything other than your results, and we all know how long it can take the positive results to come.
Thanks for the feedback AM
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 10-Sep-2004 00:48:20 (#10055)
Forgot to mention that the game didn't have LSR and it is H17 with pen at 75%, has DOA2 and RSA, average two other players. The game isn't perfect so I feel I need to wong a lot.
I'm just guessing that my hourly EV is about 3 units.
The Spouse
Posted by revereman on 10-Sep-2004 08:47:29 (#10056)
You have already experienced some of the great swings inherent in advantage BJ play. Every wife (and husband, I guess) has a different tolerance to the pain of losing. To pick a number, many spouses will not see a $2k loss as variance but as a lost vacation or piece of jewelry or whatever. Believe me (and I think you know this already), BJ can be A LOT more expensive than golf. My personal experience has been to teach my wife how to play video poker and give her a few hundred dollars to play with (usually from my "chump change," i.e. the $40 from a $240 session win). You're in a good streak now but that can turn on a dime (actually, a lot more). Like I said, everybody is different and you know your wife better than any of us (hopefully). My wife is generally content walking around, reading a book, taking a jacuzzi, and playing some VP.
I make sure I am available for meals and am on time (generally) when I tell her I will meet her somewhere. Generally speaking (again), I don't think it's great to have the spouse watch you play. It also doesn't hurt to buy her a small gift from the winnings (I know, the pros say that hurts EV). What has made my wife supportive of my play (in addition to the things above) is keeping my BJ bankroll separate from other money so I am never risking the kid's college education or next month's mortgage payment.
Golf is much more expensive ...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 10-Sep-2004 09:28:39 (#10057)
these days. I'm a long way from being a pro at golf and therefore, there is never any chance for possitive EV with golf. BJ certainly beats golf in the long run.
The Long Run
Posted by revereman on 10-Sep-2004 10:08:58 (#10058)
Ah yes, the elusive long run. It's very hard to reach. Some of the best advantage BJ players tell of losing money in a year or more. I don't know what stakes you play at BJ, but golf very rarely costs you $5k or more in a day. If you're strictly talking golf vs. BJ as a money maker, BJ is probably better in the long run. But on the flip side, you can lose a lot more money playing BJ than playing golf. In a new marriage (maybe any marriage), time is also a consideration. You seem to have set up a situation in your marriage where it was either golf or BJ and I'm not sure if both time and money were a consideration or if it was just money. Let's say you spend a $100 per week on golf for a total of $400 per month. Or you spend 5 hours a week playing BJ and lost $1000 that month (and maybe do that for 6 months in a row), is it better to spend $2400 on golf or lose $6000 in BJ over a six month period? There's really no right or wrong answer. You wrote something like if you lose money at BJ in the mid-term, your playing days are over. Therefore, you may never get to the long run. I'm not looking to argue with you, just trying to give you the benfit of my experience.
The "Long Run" in golf is not more than 18 holes! *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 10-Sep-2004 21:32:21 (#10063)
Spouses need to put it all into the right perspective
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 10-Sep-2004 23:41:46 (#10064)
Actually it is my wife doing most of analyzing of golf vs. BJ. She has a friend who's hubby plays a lot of golf. It's very time consuming and expensive + he gets grouchy if his game has some bad variance and as a result his wife complains about it. What's cool is it all makes me and my BJ playing look a hell of a lot better. My wife even thinks I like golf better than I actually do. I'll just let that ride like that. Right now, instead of increasing my bank roll significantly, I give my wife some of my winnings. She gets really jazzed about buying herself some cloths, gas or even groceries with casino money. ;-)
But golf really is entertainment *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Sep-2004 11:26:28 (#10060)
not the way I play it
Posted by revereman on 10-Sep-2004 12:13:33 (#10061)
Blackjack is relaxing compared to my golf game. But I do get my money's worth when I play golf.
BJ vs Golf
Posted by wong out on 14-Sep-2004 08:16:37 (#10091)
I dont understand the comparison. BJ is a short term business proposition with a + expected value (although you do have to survive the swings). Golf (at least for most mortals) is nothing but a hobby that costs money with no opportunity to recoup your loss (cost). It would seem more appropriate to compare BJ to other investment opportunities and to compare golf to other luxury items.
wong out
That's just my point with my wife
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 14-Sep-2004 09:18:02 (#10093)
Golf is always a losing proposition for us +20 handicappers when analyzed dollar for dollar and for the hours burned. However, I do like to play golf but given a choice, which is the case between my wife and I, I choose BJ.
I do also admit to letting her believe I really, really miss golf. ;-)
Way To Go!
Posted by SammyBoy on 09-Sep-2004 15:24:48 (#10052)
Did the new wife get to see you in action?
Dream report
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Sep-2004 10:55:53 (#10059)
Last night I dreamed that I found a single deck game dealt all the way to the bottom with early surrendar, das aces, etc and no heat at all. Then I woke up and the wether man said Ivan was up my A$$! Good luck to all you florida counters and every one else living here in Paradise. Oops shutter's loose again!
Good luck LTC, I hope everything is OK there *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 10-Sep-2004 12:17:27 (#10062)
nuevo nino on the block...
Posted by gehrig on 11-Sep-2004 10:57:51 (#10065)
subject to gaming approval, the closed castaways (*not* the real original castaways), will be reopened as a latino themed joint. the proposed owners now operate the longhorn and bighorn joints in las vegas (and one or two elsewhere). leastwise, those 'horn games are arguably near the best in town, vis a vis player disadvantage.
since at least the bighorn targets residents in a "blighted" neighborhood, could be that the new "joya" might similarly attract those residents north and east of the present location. a cool move by local law enforcement might be to eyeball the grand opening attendees for open warrants, "undocumented" immigrants, welfare abusers, delinquent child support fathers, gang bangers. i recall a move back east where the police announced a lottery drawing for free superbowl tickets. the advertised list of "winners" consisted of criminals with open warrants. many showed up at the stadium to collect their "prize".. a free shuttle to the crowbar motel.
if the new owners include their coffee shop menus from their present joints, the fremont street environs will be the nevada, *giant hamburger* mecca. other than that served at the laughing jackalope (double=40 ounce) across from mandalay, the "monster burger" from the longhorn, and the newly announced "barrick burgers" at the plaza and western, will be top trough. burp.
Sounds like the Western may have some competition for its customers *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 11-Sep-2004 19:53:00 (#10069)
I never thought the Castaways under the old Mgmt had very much class *NM*
Posted by Counter-Intelligence on 12-Sep-2004 16:08:37 (#10075)
class ?
Posted by gehrig on 12-Sep-2004 18:48:51 (#10077)
what i liked about the original castaways was that they tolerated/ignored/welcomed card counters. leastwise the bunch that i hung around with. then, we were red chip players and never got even a raised eyebrow. a couple of the dealers would count along with you, aloud. i recall one christmas eve where i was the only player in the joint.
another long lost, strip joint was the 'slipper. both of these joints were favorites for off shift dealers/casino employees. remember that '57 t-bird/slot prize next to the front door ? after years of dust and dirt, they finally, at least partially enclosed it in a plastic corral. they never did pump up the flat tire.
the more recent castaways/showboat owes me nothing, though i never played there much since there were too many better joints nearby.
Good Ole Days
Posted by rocky on 13-Sep-2004 16:46:51 (#10086)
Your mention of the original Castaways and Silver Slipper failed to give credit to the man that was responsible...the legendary Bill Friedman...great gaming guy, damm fine author(Casino Management/Designing Casino's to Dominate the Competition) and respected educator at UNLV. Funny thing...knew a guy that worked at both places and ended up closing both of them. I swore that I would never work at any joint he worked at...talk about a jinx. I hope they do make a go of the Showboat/Castaways location. That area needs some type of economic stimulus. Previously, the VSS partnership tried hard but they were the guys who run Gary Primm's stores out at Stateline. Lots of difference when you're the only game for 40 miles...good guys just could not get on the right track. Discount food, cheap booze, limits to match your customer bankroll...gee, didn't a guy by the name of Binion think of that 50 years ago? You don't need a degree to run a joint, just some smarts.
let's see what the lad with the 6th grade....
Posted by gehrig on 13-Sep-2004 21:54:30 (#10089)
education can do with his new gaming ticket. even w/o uncle jed's trump, could be that his cyphering might outperform the mba's in town.
6:5 Blackjack renamed? *LINK*
Posted by Sentry on 11-Sep-2004 16:38:10 (#10067)
Below is a link to a post from a board on the Tunica casinos. Check out the 4th post in the thread. Not exactly PC, but it gets the message across!
Sentry
Shit/Five *NM*
Posted by DoubleO/Soul on 11-Sep-2004 18:54:32 (#10068)
real name for bj-timewaster21 *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 12-Sep-2004 15:00:01 (#10072)
"BitchJack" sounds very appropriate *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 12-Sep-2004 00:47:39 (#10070)
Crapjack, anyone? *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 12-Sep-2004 15:19:23 (#10074)
I'm A Dumbass Jack *NM*
Posted by Big Cowboy on 13-Sep-2004 08:41:24 (#10081)
Non-trip report
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Sep-2004 10:12:41 (#10083)
My 5 days in LV were fun 8-) If only you knew... Let's just say that flat betting $3 on one spot on a shoe game can be more fun than you could possibly imagine.
The last 45 days have seen 30 of them away on trips of various sorts. Now, to get back to the fun of hosting this site, and maybe even contributing.
The first draft of my book is complete, with many thanks to the eagle eyes of some friends. It is not an advantage gaming book, it is about playing correctly (hey, a mass audience!).
--Mayor
Excellent podium
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Sep-2004 20:43:21 (#10088)
My prayers and my friendship are with you Eliot. May God grant your mother a long and HEALTHY life.
three dollar bets
Posted by Goose on 16-Sep-2004 04:43:48 (#10126)
Several weeks ago I couldn't have imagined these to be any fun whatsoever. Boy was I mistaken.
Five dolalr bets can also be a good time too.
double exposure basic strategy
Posted by BradRod on 13-Sep-2004 20:11:55 (#10087)
After paying off a player's BJ the dealer absent mindedly turned over the hole card without first working the hands of the rest of the table. So we were playing against both cards up which I found out is not always advantageous. (Although I did wind up getting paid for this one).
I think the only playing strategy advantage of knowing the hole card is if the dealer has a pat hand with the first two cards then you keep hitting till you beat it or bust. In this case the dealer needed to draw.
The first card the dealer was showing was a 5. So while she was paying off the BJ I was getting ready to double down with my A-4. When she turned up the hole card and I saw the 2 i had to think about it a little longer. I decided not to double but just hit. My thinking was to treat it as if the dealer had single 7 card and had not yet drawn the hole card and I would not have doubled A-4 against a 7 or against a dealer's 17 for that matter. Had the hole card turned up a T with 5 up I might have considered doubling.
I drew cards to make 17. The player next to me asked what she should do with her hand of 10. I suggested that she double down since she would have doubled 10 against a 7 (the count was also slightly positive so I figured I may come out of this looking like a hero). The dealer wound up busting her hand and it ended well.
Double exposure dreams
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 14-Sep-2004 09:02:21 (#10092)
You seem a little tentative with this statement:
Had the hole card turned up a T with 5 up I might have considered doubling.
I would have smiled, doubled for more and nearly bet the farm if they let me. :-)
I have often wondered what to do if the D double exposed a hard 15 or 16 while I'm sitting on a hard 12 with 0 count. Should I double?
gamling is healthy new study from yale
Posted by eyesfor21 on 14-Sep-2004 11:44:43 (#10096)
Gambling Linked to Good Health in Elderly
Tue Sep 14, 3:49 AM ET
By DIANE SCARPONI, Associated Press Writer
UNCASVILLE, Conn. - It's Friday at the Mohegan Sun casino, and most of the daytime gamblers are retirees like 73-year-old Mike Sanzo. He's checking out the day's races, while his wife hits the slots.
Sanzo says he gambles for fun and enjoys the friends he's made among other regulars at the casino since leaving his job installing signs for the state highway department.
"I'm retired, and it exercises my brain," he says.
He's an example of what a surprising Yale University study found - older recreational gamblers seem to be healthier than non-gamblers.
The findings are not rock-solid. They're only based on telephone interviews, but the results are the opposite of what researchers expected. The survey showed that recreational gamblers 65 and older reported being in better health than their peers who don't gamble. The older gamblers also reported less alcoholism, depression, bankruptcy and imprisonment than younger recreational gamblers, Yale epidemiologist Rani Desai said.
Desai cautioned that more study is needed to conclude that gambling can be a healthy venture, and those who help gambling addicts are skeptical.
But the social aspects of gambling - whether it's slot machines at a casino, poker games with friends or bingo at a church hall - may be an explanation for how the study turned out, Desai said.
"There's this whole concept of healthy aging - that folks who continue to remain engaged in activity, especially in the community and in social activities, stay healthier longer, so I think this is a reflection of that. It's not that gambling makes you healthy, it's that gamblers are healthier," Desai said.
Some psychologists question the findings.
"It may get them out, but the socialization isn't that much because they sit in front of machines, interacting with them," said psychologist Elizabeth Sterling of Santa Fe, N.M., who counsels gambling addicts. "I guess if you can keep it at a limit - spend $20 and go once a week - there's no harm to it, but a benefit I can't see."
Desai started the study with the idea that health problems already well documented among all gamblers might be more pronounced in gamblers over 65. Any losses would presumably hit older people harder, since most are on fixed incomes.
Also, the gambling industry tries to attract older people with freebies and trips, and even provide needle disposals for diabetics in the restrooms and heart defibrillators on the casino floor.
The survey of 2,400 people relied on the participants to report their gambling habits, health and other personal information. A survey firm called all the participants, and Yale researchers crunched the numbers. The findings were published in the September issue of the American Journal of Psychiatry.
The results could be because nongamblers might be too ill or disabled to leave the house, but there also are plenty of older people with health problems at the track and the blackjack tables.
Joe Haley, 71, of Colchester, uses an oxygen tank because he has a rare lung disease, but he still goes to Mohegan Sun about once a month for video poker and blackjack.
"My opinion is a lot of people are lonely and a lot of people we know who come here will tell you that. They like to play a little and chitchat with the person next to them," Haley said.
Sanzo, the retired state highway worker, had heart bypass surgery a few years ago. He and his wife, who live in the Hartford suburb of Newington, visit the Mohegan Tribal Nation's casino a few times a week. They spend about $40, pursuing their separate gambling interests, and meet up later to compare notes on how they did.
The study only looked at recreational gamblers and did not study people who had gambling problems. Very few were found in the survey, Desai said, but the health and financial problems for addicts are well known.
"The key is moderation, and once it gets to the point that you're showing signs of addiction, then it becomes a serious health threat and is overwhelmed by any small benefit it may have afforded you by getting out of the house," she said.
Keith Whyte, the executive director of the National Council on Problem Gambling, which advocates for gambling addicts, likened the Yale report to studies that have found a glass of red wine can be healthful.
He recommended that recreational gamblers should set limits, go with friends, take breaks and know the signs of addiction, such as betting increasing amounts to enjoy gambling as much, out-of-control feelings or allowing gambling to interfere with work, family or school. Gamblers also should know who to contact if they need help.
"Clearly, if it becomes obsessive and a psychological health problem," he said, "that's a concern for everybody."
___
On the Net:
Anonymity vs. Comps
Posted by Nina on 13-Sep-2004 23:05:31 (#10090)
When you get a "tracking card" for purposes of getting comps are you not ASKING for the casino to keep an eye on your play?
At what point is it beneficial to play for comps as opposed to just trying to play under the radar?
I'm playing in the $25 - $100 range. What would be right for me?
Comps- an important part of this nutritious breakfast
Posted by Sentry on 14-Sep-2004 10:47:26 (#10095)
When you get a "tracking card" for purposes of getting comps are you not ASKING for the casino to keep an eye on your play?
Yes, but you may choose not to give them your card every time you play. Some are of the opinion that it looks more suspicious to the pit for you to play without getting rated. I sometimes "forget", but I am more likely to turn in my card to be rated during a losing session. Just remember, they don't need your name to back you off.
At what point is it beneficial to play for comps as opposed to just trying to play under the radar?
To clarify, you should not be "playing for comps", you are just taking them as a bonus, part of your overall advantage play. Play the best game possible and take whatever comps you can, as much as you can, as often as you can.
I'm playing in the $25 - $100 range. What would be right for me?
You certainly should be taking advantage of comps. Ask for them both at the table and talk to a casino host. Find out what level of play is required to get rooms, meals, and gift shop comps where you play. You may be bashful to ask at first, but doing so will make you seem more like a typical gambler and less like the stereotypical card counting robot. Also, video poker is a great addition to your AP skill set, and VP play alone has been known to generate some nice coupon and cashback offers in the mail. There are a couple of books you might want to check out on comps: Comp City by Max Rubin, and The Frugal Gambler by Jean Scott.
Sentry
Agreed 100%
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Sep-2004 17:46:44 (#10097)
As a shoe player, comps work out to be about 20% of my EV. They cover my cover play, transportation and other costs of doing business.
The only time I don't use them if I am on a trip far away where I'm not planning on being back or using my comps on the trip. This does decrease from the value of such games. However if I am on a trip it is usually to play SD or DD which has a higher value that more than makes up for the lack of comps.
VP is another thing I do, for cover and to alleviate boredom on long trips. But casinos know that VP can be played for positive EV, and apparently a lot of places don't rate it like they do slots. I'm sure they also know that most card counters know about and can play VP. So a little time at a slot or a craps table might be beneficial too. I like to buy in at craps or roulettte to make it harder for the BJ pit to track my wins and losses.
And they contain fiber...
Posted by Greasy John on 14-Sep-2004 22:59:18 (#10102)
and they taste good too!
Comps vs EV
Posted by wong out on 15-Sep-2004 21:23:07 (#10118)
I agree that comps should be viewed as a perk (and not a necessity of playing). Having said that - I think that the quarte player will benefit quite a bit from comps; a $100 max will fly under the radar of most places and you will be struggling to cover trip expenses without comps at this level. So ask away and dont be shy; also remember that if the first host or whoever says no; ask another. Alot of times there is leeway to be gathered.
The comps are less important IMO for red chippers and black chippers. Basically the red chipper would be better off to focus on coupon abuse whereas the black chipper's ev is usually strong enough to cover most expenses and show a decent profit to boot.
I usually ask for (and BS I suppose) for all comps that dont require a hotel stay. Rooms are usually comped in adance via mailers and I rarely (if ever) play where I stay. I use alot of corporate travel points and prefer to stay for free at a marriott than any hotel casino which also helps defray trip expenses.
wong out
a comp matter
Posted by BradRod on 14-Sep-2004 20:26:01 (#10098)
I have been going anonymous at many houses that I play in until I get around to getting some fake id for camo and comp purposes. At some places where I know that it is safe I give my real name but I am trying to phase that out. It seems that not having a card in some places brings more attention than I am comfortable with. I dont ususally care that much about the things that comps buy.
A couple of interesting things came up in an exchange i had with a pit person about using an Id that I had not considered.
I had lost track of exactly how much I had bought in for at the table that I was playing at so I asked the pit person if he could tell me. He said he could not. I asked him if he knew. He said he did but just could not tell me. At this point I thought about all those times that I heard pit people use the euphomism "would you like to be rated ?" or "can we rate your play for you ?" It was obvious from his response that it was not for me that the rating was being done. I asked him why and he answered that it violated the state's laws regarding financial disclosures. Those are the law's that govern what a casino has to disclose to the federal government about a players' activities. Like when someone buys in for over $10,000 in a one day period. The rationale apparently is that if they tell a player what his buy in was it may be used to circumvent the law.
Then it occured to me if I was using a fake ID to get a casino comp card and the casino used the information on that card to give misinformation to whoever exactly it that they have to report to (IRS ?) Could I inadvertently be using a fake Id to give fraudualent information in a legally required report and so violate a some federal law ??
anybody know ?
Tax
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Sep-2004 21:54:23 (#10099)
No, you are not signing any reports so you are OK. If however you do fill out the required forms for a larger than $10K transaction with a false name you could get in trouble. The simple solution: keep everything under $10K per day! True, a black chip player could easily have more than that to cash in but a black chip player is going to be sticking around town for a while so there's no reason he can't cash it in $9K at a time.
Note that this does not have anything to do with your obligation to report gambling profits to the IRS. And no, the IRS is not going to accept that what we do isn't gambling, any more than non-counters do. The last thing you ever want to give any casino is your Social Security number.
By the way, the reason he wouldn't tell you what you bought in for has nothing to do with the IRS. Casinos know that CG's kid themselves over how much money they have lost and they only remember the wins, and they want to encourage this situation, so they don't remind people.
Giving Casino's your SS#
Posted by Greasy John on 14-Sep-2004 23:04:51 (#10103)
I have filled out forms for Players Cards where they ask for it. If you don't provide it would the card be denied you?
Check out this link ...
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Sep-2004 11:23:48 (#10112)
http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/privacy/ssn/SSN-History.html
great informative info mayor- *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 15-Sep-2004 14:08:19 (#10113)
Just leave that line blank.....
Posted by BJ_Player2004 on 15-Sep-2004 21:25:44 (#10119)
They won't say a word. I've NEVER given my (or any other) SS# to a casino, and no one's ever asked for it for a player's card.
yeah but you have probably given your ss to banks *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 16-Sep-2004 09:30:27 (#10130)
Don't take this advice.
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Sep-2004 23:43:54 (#10104)
>The simple solution: keep everything under $10K per day! True, a black chip player could easily have more than that to cash in but a black chip player is going to be sticking around town for a while so there's no reason he can't cash it in $9K at a time.
This is called "structuring" and is illegal.
Disagree
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Sep-2004 09:44:04 (#10108)
"This is called "structuring" and is illegal."
Only if you use it to avoid paying tax, just like any scheme to avoid playing tax is. Using it to avoid hassling with the casino and giving them ID is not.
This is wrong too
Posted by Sohrab on 18-Sep-2004 22:24:09 (#10163)
Structuring is not about taxes. It is a crime ALL BY ITSELF to deliberately arrange things so no reports are made even if you do pay your taxes. If you are one who wins or loses thousands in a sessions spend a few chips for legal advice and don't wind up visiting FBI.
Who forces us to keep playing!?
Posted by Tom on 15-Sep-2004 11:12:11 (#10109)
Nobody does...being satisfied with a 9k win for the day and cashing out is NOT illegal. Do we know if we dont quit we will win another $1000? Absolutely,not. This is not structuring because we can not PREDICT the future. There is NO evidence.
Agree, But
Posted by SammyBoy on 15-Sep-2004 17:51:00 (#10115)
If you win $10k or more but only cash in $9k today and the rest tomorrow, this could be a problem. I think this is what The Mayor is talking about.
Structuring
Posted by Sohrab on 15-Sep-2004 02:16:57 (#10106)
He can't tell you so he can't be accused of helping you structure your money to avoid reports. Also if you ask he thinks you are structureing and he must fill out forms which he does not want to do, I think. Read Comp City, it has a chapter on this subjecdt.
Plaza BJ, Vegas
Posted by Greasy John on 14-Sep-2004 22:41:59 (#10101)
Does anyone know if they still have S17 DAS double deck BJ? Thanks in advance.
GJ
according to CBJN
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Sep-2004 11:22:42 (#10111)
According to CBJN the Plaza game is the best in LV right now. If you are downtown, playing the other decent games available, just stop by the Plaza (then report back to us!).
Still there.....
Posted by BJ_Player2004 on 15-Sep-2004 21:29:17 (#10120)
Yes, it's there. Comps to the restaurant are easy to come by as well. Very sweaty, though.
answer
Posted by Goose on 16-Sep-2004 04:35:28 (#10125)
Yes, the game's still there (at least it was an hour ago).
However, they've removed the $25 table and there are now only two $5 tables and they're insanely sweaty so hit and run real fast and good luck.
Plaza
Posted by Carolina Counter on 17-Sep-2004 23:01:35 (#10157)
Recently (read last 8 days), I played 2 sessions on consecutive days and unfortunately around the same shift....once right during shift change. Many have debated playing at shift changes, but I found it a winner. There were chip fills to distract, card changes for the pit to do. The only person I saw that was "really sweaty" was the attractive Asian female pit boss.
I played GC and my buy in of several hundred generated attention immediately when I refused to be rated. Within a few minutes, I was approached by a host for my ID etc. I declined again. This ultimnately limited my play because I did not stay too long. The pen was about 75%. I had a nice win.
On my second session, I was watched far less closely than the forst (win was not quite as big and the shift change had then occupied. I was clearly the biggest player in the joint, but still played for 45 minutes.
I am comfortable that I was scrutinized, but ultimately sailed through. While I think they are kinda sweaty, I also believe that they are trying to get customers in and know that they are offering a good game. I also think they are not too quick to identify counters, but they are not incompetent. A couple of other GC players did wander in to the table and provided a distraction . All in all, I spread 1x1 to 2x9 at a high point and sailed in and out no problem. I may have been at my last leg, but the pit boss said, "please come on back!"
Great job not getting barred.....
Posted by BJ_Player2004 on 18-Sep-2004 22:48:54 (#10164)
I spent a week in Vegas not too long ago, during which I played the Plaza a few times at green chip level. First couple of times went okay in terms of heat, but I got major heat the final visit. As I was getting ready to go, that attractive Asian woman you mentioned tapped me on the shoulder and very politely flat-bet me. Oh, well. It was my first (and only) barring/banning/flat-betting experience.
The trip went well otherwise. I netted +$4200, despite my -$700 Plaza total (yes, I was way down when I was flat-bet). No major heat anywhere else (even including El Cortez)!
Mark S.
Thanks,I'm waiting on my mailer/lol!/nt *NM*
Posted by Carolina Counter on 20-Sep-2004 20:33:55 (#10194)
plaza conditions
Posted by eric on 19-Sep-2004 21:32:33 (#10172)
The Plaza certainly has a playable game (DD, S17, RSA 4x); however, the place does sound like the nexus of the card-counting universe, based on your similar experiences. And yes, the asian pit boss gal is quite the hottie, who was by far the most pleasant back off (oxymoron?) out of my 8 or so, but who's counting.
And they wer sweaty 5 years ago...
Posted by Greasy John on 19-Sep-2004 14:43:12 (#10167)
When I played there then they had a single deck game ( I haven't been back there since). One morning two bosses parked off my left shoulder as I sat next to third base playing heads-up. It was a $25 min table. I basically flat betted and won $150 in 20 minutes. Thanks everyone for the input.
Hi Peeps
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 15-Sep-2004 01:17:04 (#10105)
Sorry I'm outa the loop right now. In the hospital geting repaired. When I get out I'll be running my own Oxygen and Juicer Cyber Cafe full time, so get ready to get a hours sleep in 15 minutes and all your fruit a veggies in just one glass with wthose ice cold cyber blackjacks.
Rob
Get well soon! *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 15-Sep-2004 04:12:10 (#10107)
Best wishes for your speedy recovery
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Sep-2004 11:21:05 (#10110)
We miss you!
Hope All is Well! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 15-Sep-2004 17:37:52 (#10114)
Get well soon come on Zengrifter wish him well!!! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 15-Sep-2004 21:56:11 (#10121)
Rob, get well and stay off the alcohol! *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 16-Sep-2004 09:31:12 (#10131)
Alkie No No
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Sep-2004 00:38:56 (#10143)
Been staying away from that for a long time now. Never had a prob with that. Thanks guys for the well wishes. They just gave my wife two weeks off to take care of me in the hospital too. Blew me away. Thanks for the payers Zen. Your faith goes a long way. The fact is I will get to retire at 42. Not so bad.
Rob
Thoughts are with you Rob! *NM*
Posted by MrPill on 16-Sep-2004 11:12:12 (#10134)
"6"SMOOTHLY...
Posted by phantom007 on 16-Sep-2004 11:40:28 (#10136)
because IF NOT, you will have grounds for litigation!
Hard "6", "12", etc.
Hey!
phantom007.
Praying for YOU! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 16-Sep-2004 12:26:47 (#10138)
Read this one!
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Sep-2004 20:23:36 (#10117)
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Sep-15-Wed-2004/news/24772039.html
My only comment is that Nevada has taken a giant step backwards into the dark ages of police and casino abuse of individual rights.
Well....
Posted by Learning to count on 15-Sep-2004 22:05:17 (#10122)
The jury convicted him not the cops. They voted to believe the police. I feel bad for the AP but the jury was hot to trot. The states case obviously was convincing. As I have said before keep your response low key. Why would anyone want to take on casino security a$$holes who are trained gorillas (sorry about the monkey comparison autoape) with guns. No brain matter beteween those casino ape ears. Some times the film can beat the defense. Its better to look like the victim. I do feel for this AP. F%#k that casino. Boycott them!!! Get the ploppies to boycott them.
The way I heard the story
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Sep-2004 22:32:28 (#10123)
Wasn't this the guy who said "Call the police, they're going to take me in the back room and kill me" when they went to backroom him?
If so, at least the newspaper article makes sense. The way it is written, you could get the impression he was arrested for disorderly conduct because he was holecarding.
And the police behavior also makes some sense if this is true. Saying something like that in a crowded casino could cause a panic and for the police to interpret that as disorderly conduct isn't so far over the top as to justify charges agains the police. Not to defend the bad guys, this is just my unbiased opinion.
On the other hand, for the casino to pretend a non-device using holecarder is the same as a cheat and backroom him is way over the top. They deserve to be sued, they were sued, and they settled.
So where's the beef?
I have to agree with auto ape! Good call! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 15-Sep-2004 22:56:58 (#10124)
Security guards
Posted by oldnewbie on 16-Sep-2004 07:17:53 (#10128)
I have been a security guard. In my experience, remembering the general type of personality of your private security guard, if you are lucky enough to find yourself outside the casino after an altercation such as this, trust me, just walk away. The cops will regard the security guards as their underpaid brethern, and the SC's are usually just guys who have seen too many Starsky and Hutch reruns and couldn't make it as cops. This guy lost this battle as soon as he got caught doing something the ElCo didn't like.
I'm not saying who was right or wrong, that doesn't necessarily matter. I'm saying, just walk away!
oldnewbie
The Beef
Posted by Jim Goding on 16-Sep-2004 12:21:48 (#10137)
Wasn't this the guy who said "Call the police, they're going to take me in the back room and kill me" when they went to backroom him?
I believe it was: "Call the police, I'm being kidnapped" (true statement).
On the other hand, for the casino to pretend a non-device using holecarder is the same as a cheat and backroom him is way over the top. They deserve to be sued, they were sued, and they settled.
As three casino employees testified to (casino manager, surveillance operator on duty at the time of the incident, and the security guard who was the complaining witness for the "citizen's arrest"), the casino never suspected the player of using a device, thus their backrooming was illegal and in fact, kidnapping. The detention statute in Nevada is quite clear in this case. The police claimed an unknown mystery surveillance operator, whose name or report they "forgot" to get, made the claim.
In fact, no mention of any "cheating suspicion" is written on any documents until after police arrive.
You also fail to realize the police have a broad immunity of prosecution brush, and to even get a case to trial against them is a feat in itself.
What the decision by this reckless jury does is now allow any casino in Nevada to backroom any player for any reason without fear of criminal charges being brought against them.
Missing the point
Posted by Anonymous on 16-Sep-2004 18:46:25 (#10139)
The point here is that the police were called to the scene of a crime and, when asked to take a report by the victim who wished to press charges against those who wrongfully detained him, the police told the victim to get lost and, when he insisted on a report being filed, he was arrested. That is the crime from which the police officers managed to walk away unscathed.
To make an analogy, if someone broke into my house and I called the police to come down and file a report and charge the person who broke in, and they then refused to do so and arrested me, the victim, instead, wouldn't it seem a little strange? The situation with the holecarder in question is no different. He was the victim of a crime and, when he asked that those who perpetrated the crime have action taken against them, he was arrested. In doing so, the police not only failed to do their job properly, but they also violated the victim's civil rights.
In the end, it is just another testament to the failed legal apparatus in modern America.
Did I misread it?
Posted by Sonny on 17-Sep-2004 11:12:42 (#10151)
> The point here is that the police were called to the scene of a crime and,
> when asked to take a report by the victim who wished to press charges
> against those who wrongfully detained him, the police told the victim to get
> lost and, when he insisted on a report being filed, he was arrested. That is
> the crime from which the police officers managed to walk away unscathed.
From what I understand (I may have misread it) the police were responding to the casino's call, not the AP. The casino probably called the police bofore he did, so they thought they were being dispatched to a public disturbance call.
Let's face it, communication is not one of any police department's strengths. I have been pulled over, handcuffed, detained and even held at gunpoint at various times by the LAPD despite my squeaky clean record. There must be some serial killer somewhere that looks just like me! Hopefully they'll find him (and stop finding me) soon.
Among the PD's other weaknesses is their lack of "people skills." Obviously they don't know what the hell is going on when they arrive on a scene, so they treat everybody as a suspect or a potentially dangerous individual. Their first priority is to keep themselves safe. Since they are usually not given nearly enough information about the conditions they are being sent to, often times they end up pulling stunts like this one simply out of ignorance or miscommunication.
As far as security guards go, don't ever trust them! I used to be one too, so believe me when I say that I and many of my brethren were DUMBASSES! I was given a training manual to study for 30 minutes, then a 15 minute written test. The next week I was on the street as a security guard. A week later I got my paycheck for $400. Not exactly ideal circumstances, eh?
-Sonny-
Security and police
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Sep-2004 23:09:13 (#10158)
I hear you man, I also once worked as a security guard and I know how messed up those guys can be. Way too many of them have either been fired from a PD for misconduct, or were denied a job as a cop for a psychological or criminal problem. You probably had a higher IQ than all of your peers combined.
I once had to stop my supervisor from doing crazy stuff. He had detained two minors in an unoccupied office for interrogation because he found them loitering on the premises. I told him, man that is crazy, you had better let them go now. When you find kids loitering, you just tell them to go home, that's all. But he started getting aggressive with me and it looked bad, so I propped the door open with my foot and told the kids to run like hell and never come back, which they did. The supervisor wanted literally to kill me, but the next day the big boss said I was absolutely right and the guy almost got fired, and the company lawyer had to talk his way out of a lawsuit.
Now after knowing what I know I steer clear of security guards even in casinos. I don't like violence and wouldn't want to hurt anyone, but if I had to choose between letting those clowns handcuff me or take me into a back room, or dropping one on his head, I would choose the last option just for my own safety. And if I hurt my back when lifting the guy to drop him on his head, then it's time to call Mr. Nersesian.
Not so bad
Posted by Sohrab on 18-Sep-2004 22:14:58 (#10162)
The player was grabbed by casino and then charged with disturbing the peace for yelling for help. The judge dismissed the distrubing peace charge. He sued the casino and they settled with him. He sued the police and lost at trial.
All this says is the jury found police were ok. It didn't find casino was ok.
Maybe Mayor with your contacts you could get Mr. Nersesian (lawyer) to tell us his opinion on what this means for counters?
BJ Tourney EV ?
Posted by phantom007 on 16-Sep-2004 06:47:14 (#10127)
In the very near future, I will be playing in a BJ tourney along with 249 others. Buy-in $500....but total prize pool = $150k...therefore players providing 5/6th of pool, with casino kicking in $25k.
No Re-buy-in in this one. After 2 rounds of #25 hands each, top 36 players go to the semi-finals...winner of each of these 6 tables, plus one Wildcard, occupy the Final table.
Pay-offs are roughly as follows:
---1st...60k
---2nd...25k
---3rd...20k
---4th...13k
---5th...7k
---6th...4.5k
---7th-36th...$500 each
---Wild-Card player gets 3.5k plus seat at the final table.
---All get 2 nights free room, 2 meals, and a free gift
---#4 players will be drawn to receive free entry into next tourney (value 2k).
In my simple mind, EV is about +21%, albeit that one will have only a 7/250 chance of being "way" ahead, a 34/250 chance of "being even + free stuff", and a 209/250 chance of having a $500. dollar T-shirt.
Is my math logic correct?
Thanks
Phantom007.
Simple
Posted by The Mayor on 16-Sep-2004 10:19:27 (#10132)
Your EV is $150000/250 = $600 for your $500 buy in, giving you a 20% edge in this tourney right of the top.
And then you get the free rooms and other perks...
This is a great deal.
--Mayor
Thanks Mayor........
Posted by phantom007 on 16-Sep-2004 11:31:21 (#10135)
Maybe I will give up the CC Grind for the BJ Tourney EV!
Q: Whatever happened to Phantom007?
A: He is now a BJ Tourney Pro!
Q: How does he make his living?
A: He sells his Meal Comps, Hats, T-shirts, etc. to BJ and CC-wannabe's.
Q: Why does he CC in Tourney's, when Wong says he must not?
A: Because HE MUST! A Good CC will count! HE/SHE MUST COUNT!
GRIN!
phantom007.
My first BJ tournament today
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Sep-2004 02:36:23 (#10146)
Interesting. It was a free buy-in with a whole bunch of prizes. Yes, I did count, but mostly for playing decisions. It didn't help me very much though- see this thing has a 2-1 BJ payout so if you're not getting your BJ's you are screwed. And there were only 25 hands per round so you really don't have enough hands to overcome variance much at all. Huge luck factor, but still it doesn't hurt to count to help you with hit/stand decisions.
and to bet big when the aces are coming *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 17-Sep-2004 07:53:42 (#10148)
Tourney Play.....
Posted by MrPill on 17-Sep-2004 15:34:27 (#10152)
.....is all about playing against the other players chip stacks and counting really has no place in it. I told this to one of my pharmacy friends once and he didn't believe me when I told him I don't count during tourney play. Especially when I took 1st place and the greater than 13K 1st place prize.
I gave him this example, if I'm leading by $50 on the last hand and I have a monster count. BR2 bets only $60 ahead of me, do really think I'm going to bet $500 max because the count said too?
Good Luck in your tourney play AM,
Pill
6D multi position math
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 16-Sep-2004 09:02:22 (#10129)
Let's assume for instance the game is 6D, 80% pen, +15TC, two aces extra on average left in the pack and 4.? decks have already gone to the discard tray. Let's also assume in this situation that there is on average 16 play positions left in the pack to be played before the shoe is over and the pit crew doesn't have a care in the world about us being AP's or how many hands we play and we have a truck load of $ for a bk-roll. Now let's also assume we will be playing 1 on 1 in any of the following manners to finish out the shoe:
1) play one position with a total of eight hands to the D and eight hands to the player -or-
2) play three positions with a total of four hands to the D and twelve to the player -or-
3) play seven positions with a total of two hands to the D and fourteen to the player.
Which option would mathematically provide the highest EV?
Just guessing
Posted by The Mayor on 16-Sep-2004 10:30:44 (#10133)
*choice 1 is the best if the table max is above your bankroll max bet.
*choice 3 is best if your bankroll is such that you can bet the table max on each spot.
Choice 1: Rounds reduce variance, so you are best to go for the greatest number of rounds. You will get the same EV, but much lower variance, by seeing several dealer hands.
Choice 3: has extremely high variance, and that can only be justified if you can put a huge amount on the table to increase your EV accordingly. Normally this is not how we play, as we spread to multiple hands we reduce the overall bet size as we place each additional bet. Thus, to justify this method, your bankroll would have to be such that your max bet is significantly higher than the table max.
Sounds understandably correct
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 16-Sep-2004 21:41:42 (#10141)
For the moment though, let's set aside any issues of NOT having plenty of bank-roll or any variance issues and just consider the math for the ROI or EV.
Regarding option #3 in my post above: play seven positions with a total of two hands to the D and fourteen to the player rather than just 1 on 1 play with our bets in only one circle playing one hand at a time.
I partly see option #3 as a defensive type play. More hands during a high C equal less BJ's for the D and more 3/2 BJ's for the player. It is just my own theory that the EV should be higher for each additional position put into play while the C is so high. In this situation, the player will get more BJ's, (I believe the ratio is 8 to 1) which of course pay the player 3 to 2.
Why let the D have any more of the big cards than we absolutely have to? Why not use them in our own hands and take all we can get while the opportunity is there?
top counting methods.ko near the bottom of the heap
Posted by eyesfor21 on 16-Sep-2004 19:43:12 (#10140)
Score for mainly singl/double
Strategy
100
Uston APC
100
Canfield Master
98
Omega II with Side Count
97
Omega II No Side Count
88
Hi-Opt II with Side Count
80
Omega II with Side Count I18
75
Zen Count
73
Canfield Expert
73
Hi-Lo Full indexes
71
Revere Point Count
70
Wong Halves
67
Hi-Opt I with Side Count
66
Red Seven Extended
66
Hi-Opt I No Side Count
62
Revere Adv. Plus-Minus
62
Unb. Zen 11
59
Revere Point Count I18
59
Silver Fox
58
Uston Adv. Plus-Minus
56
Uston SS
55
Hi-Lo
54
K-O
50
What's your source? *NM*
Posted by cyrano on 17-Sep-2004 00:54:21 (#10144)
Yes, what's your source? *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 17-Sep-2004 07:58:59 (#10149)
I think I know where.. *LINK*
Posted by cyrano on 19-Sep-2004 22:34:06 (#10173)
He probably used QFit's blackjack strategy advisor, which seems to be highly subjective based on your assessment of your strengths and weaknesses and what you're comfortable with. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the chart since it has no bearing on system performances.
How about for shoe?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Sep-2004 02:32:00 (#10145)
We have seen the future of blackjack, and it has 6 or 8 decks. KO has slightly better parameters for those kinds of games, what with it's high BC.
Either way KO is fine for an occasional player who is always playing the same number of decks (so he doesn't have to mess with too many index numbers) and who is going to make enough mistakes with a level 2 or 3 count as to make it less powerful than KO. But it doesn't seem like a good system for a player who is going to be playing a lot of different games.
newbie question
Posted by euphdude on 17-Sep-2004 08:47:01 (#10150)
Dear All,
I'm a new list member and just registered yesterday. I'm a newbie counter and have a counting strategy question. Which of these methods is preferred for a newbie:
1. Sit at first/third base and count each players hand as they are played out. My problem with this is I may miss a players bust card if the dealer is fast and scoops up the cards quickly.
2. Count each pair of hands beginning when the first baseman receives his second card. My problem with this is I sometimes catch myself intensely counting when I should be focusing on how to play my hand.
Which of these methods is better?
Thanks.
Option two is best.
Posted by MrPill on 17-Sep-2004 15:37:56 (#10153)
You will get the hang of it once you get more practice.
By counting in pairs you find alot of 2 card combinations will cancel each other out in most count methods. You should get to the point where you are counting down a deck of cards by two or even three cards at a time.
Good Luck,
Pill
Agree option 2 and
Posted by CanKen on 17-Sep-2004 20:05:48 (#10154)
if you sit anywhere from mid-table to third base you can decide your play while the earlier hands are being played out.
good luck
Posted by gui on 17-Sep-2004 21:17:27 (#10155)
If you are playing with decent players, the dealer got 4,5 or 6
and all totals are hard 12-20 on the first 2 hands; its time
to have a look for the waitress while other players
are making their decisions;)
Sit in middle for pitch games
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 17-Sep-2004 21:51:52 (#10156)
and one position upstream from 3B for face-up games. You don't want to look like you're watching a tennis match on face-up either. If you sit on either end, you will not be able to spread to two hands as often as you would otherwise because there is more chance for someone being in your way. You will not have enough time to keep count, convert to TC, calculate, think & talk to the pit stiff if you sit at 1st B.
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