At one time, the website CardCounter.com held an active message forum with many contributors. When the previous site owner planned to shut down the site, he allowed us to archive the messages here at BlackjackInfo. They are formatted as they originally appeared, but no further comments on threads are permitted. If you want to discuss any of these topics, please do so at the BlackjackInfo Forums.
Two Ques. - Royal Match & 2-6 Side Bets?
Posted by zengrifter on 09-Oct-2004 17:54:34 (#10426)
Does anyone have the Royal Match count system that was marketed for a short time in the 80s?
Does anyone have the low-down on how to exploit the new 2-6 sidebet that is at 4Queens?
Not the answer you're looking for...
Posted by suicyco maniac on 09-Oct-2004 22:24:19 (#10428)
....and you probably know but just in case..... Grosjean has a chapter on RM in Beyond Counting SM
Yes, he recommends a dual-suit +/- approach...
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Oct-2004 20:44:18 (#10440)
... that will "identify 50%" of the posi-opps. The 4 suit system would give me more info. I have been making a lot of RM bets lately, just 'eyeballing' the suits and it pretty easy, albeit un precise. zg
The 4 Q's bet
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Oct-2004 11:49:01 (#10432)
I think Hi-Lo will work on the 4 Q's bet where you make the bet when the count is very low. Send me the details on the payout and I'll run the numbers.
--Mayor
Simulator for RM bet
Posted by Gorgon on 12-Oct-2004 15:27:01 (#10451)
What software are you using to run these calculations?
I write my own C++ code ... *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 12-Oct-2004 15:59:26 (#10452)
Hi Low does work
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Oct-2004 13:47:45 (#10459)
I wrote a C++ program to simulate the weird 4Q's side bet.
Playing 2 decks with 70 card penetration, using High-Low, make the 4Q's side bet whenever the TC <= -11, and place the full $50 side bet. This will earn you an extra 89 cents per hour (yes, $0.89/hour).
--Mayor
So much for that one! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Oct-2004 14:57:17 (#10462)
And I tried Match the Dealer
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Oct-2004 21:06:25 (#10478)
One of my local stores has a Match the Dealer sidebet where you get a bonus for matching the dealer upcard with either of your first two cards. The kick is that you can include your sidebet in the table minimum. $1 on your hand and $9 on the sidebet at a $10 table if you want. So I figured if the count is very low and for some reason you don't want to Wong out, you can move all but $1 to the sidebet and improve your EV. I wrote a Liberty BASIC routine to test it. Turns out, that you don't get there until something like TC<-20 (HO2). Not really worth it. But now I do have a general BJ card dealing routine that will allow me to test other sidebets.
They say Rob's gone
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-Oct-2004 19:05:47 (#10453)
This news was posted this afternoon on his Card Counter's Cafe Yahoo group. I have no way of verifying it. It's the saddest thing I have felt in a long time. What a great guy.
Very sad news
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Oct-2004 20:01:45 (#10455)
Yes, that is incredibly sad news. I hope someone here can help verify the information.
Any info would be appreciated if someone can post it.
Is there an address we can send condolences?
--Mayor
Rob is gone
Posted by EditorDave on 14-Oct-2004 08:50:21 (#10456)
Unfortunately it is true. "Rob" has gone to meet his maker. He was as decent a human being as I've ever met online. And my time on the 'net goes back to 1982.
Godspeed, St. Robo! zg *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Oct-2004 16:24:54 (#10466)
A sad day. :( *NM*
Posted by Ouchez on 14-Oct-2004 16:46:12 (#10471)
BKPro2000 *LINK*
Posted by MrPill on 17-Oct-2004 15:26:23 (#10507)
I was driving across Canada one day the other week on my way to a tourney in Niagara Falls (From Detroit area) as I entered Hamilton, Ontario, which is about 45 miles Southwest of Toronto I made a mental note to myself to stop and meet up with Rob possibly on my next trip.
Over the last 5 or 6 years Rob and I have exchanged emails at least a couple of times per year. Just out of the blue I would send him an idea for what he had going on or just to say hi when something reminded me of him.
In this world of Internet travels we tend to create and make friends with people from far away places. If only we could travel in person with such ease to compliment this, it would be grand. In the case of Rob though, he was not really that far away from me, just a different country.
With the news of his passing I know we have lost a friend and brother of the felt. The missed opportunity I had of meeting up with Rob will stay with me for a long time and will try not repeat a missed opportunity again. How fitting it is for this to be a lesson learned as he passes away. It would have been such a typical lesson learned from Rob when he was with us.
Take time out to smell the roses and enjoy life and all that is good about it.
Aces and Faces to you my friend,
Pill
Beginner question about spread...
Posted by ganosuke on 13-Oct-2004 19:56:19 (#10454)
I am learning the K-O preferred method and was wondering what kind of bet spread I should use my first few times out. Is $200 to low of a buy in?
BTW this is a great message board!
Thanks!
KO Book sez....
Posted by euphdude on 14-Oct-2004 11:32:58 (#10458)
Hi,
According to the KO Book, you'll net a positive expectation in shoe games with the KO Rookie system with as little as a 1-5 spread. Of course you'll expect this to be a little higher with KO Preferred. They of course recommend a 1-10 spread for optimal performance, which I don't quite have the guts to do just yet.
Good luck.
Common misunderstanding...
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Oct-2004 16:34:25 (#10468)
... is apparent regarding spread. Spread is calc'd from the top down. So the top bet for 1-8 decks is all the same, only the minimum bet is different:
Top Bet = 100
Ah! Interesting
Posted by ganosuke on 14-Oct-2004 20:59:28 (#10477)
That is enlightening! As the book says, that is the toughest chapter to apply because every player will decipher it differently. Thanks!
Counting and card clumping?
Posted by Jay on 14-Oct-2004 10:19:09 (#10457)
Hello,
I am a new counter and I was wondering if the card clumping "theory" for multiple-deck games actually affects the counter. I can see that if the low cards are clumped that a counter would bet more due to a high count, only to lose because more low cards are coming out and now high cards. Excuse my ignorance :) Any responses appreciated!
Answer
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Oct-2004 13:49:01 (#10460)
>I am a new counter and I was wondering if the card clumping "theory" for multiple-deck games actually affects the counter.
No, it does not. That's one weed you've got to pull.
Welcome to the board,
--Mayor
Clumping
Posted by Rockky on 14-Oct-2004 16:07:36 (#10465)
I am curious why you said you "it does not". If the high cards are clumped there would be a high count prior to the clump that the counter would keep betting high on low cards. Once the clump appear both the counter and the dealer would be getting 20s, sort off. This should reduce the advantage for the counter.
Answer
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Oct-2004 18:02:51 (#10472)
If you are either card counting, tracking ace slugs, or shuffle tracking, then you may know something about the deck that tells you when you have an advantage. In any other context, "clumping" is total nonsense.
I refer you to the board policy on discussing mythology on these pages. If you have any further questions about clumping, please direct them to another board.
Thanks.
"Clumps" vs. "Segments"
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Oct-2004 18:34:20 (#10473)
We use the term "segments" to distinguish between scientific-based shuffle tracking and Ace sequencing, and the non-scientific concept of "Clumping." Notwithstanding, segments are sometimes reffered to as "clumps" by legitimate counters/trackers, hence the confusion. zg
Thanks!
Posted by Jay on 14-Oct-2004 20:57:21 (#10476)
Thank you for all your responses! Mayor, this site is a great learning tool, I appreciate it!
How about discard order?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Oct-2004 21:09:55 (#10479)
Discard order is a legit advantage if you can get it to survive the shuffle in some form. Could this be considered a legit form of "clumping" theory but on a primitive-cell level?
hit the nail...
Posted by ganosuke on 14-Oct-2004 21:25:35 (#10480)
that's what I am thinking of. I see that the dealer picks up the busted hands first, which are typically the low cards, and the hard hands last, which are mostly the high cards, so there are now two "clumps" for lack of a better term. Now we have the low cards together and the high cards together. When the dealer picks up all the decks to reshuffle for a new shoe, do they shuffle well enough to alleviate these clumps of low and high cards. And if they don't, is there any proof that this really hurts us the counter? I am on the fence with this one. Since I am so new to counting and the game, (3 months) I don't have a grasp of weeding out the correct strategies from the incorrect "theories". Thank you all for responding, this is a very interesting subject to me.
see #2 in posting guidelines
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Oct-2004 21:50:58 (#10481)
If someone really wants to study "clumping," they should just study shuffle tracking instead. These are not the same things. People who believe in clumping don't seem to believe the mountain of evidence that such a phenomenon does not exist. Their argument is usually that "computer simulations can't model real world casino experience." I don't want to get into that. I don't want it on my board.
Here is one of the conditions stated under the posting guidelines for this site:
2. Mythology and pseudo-science cannot be promoted or encouraged.
I am not going to defend this policy or argue any more against those who think clumping works. It is the policy of this site to not allow any discussion based on mythological thinking, and yes, I get to decide what is (or is not) mythology. Clumping is mythology.
I am sure (absolutely and positively sure) that www.johnpatrick.com would welcome such a topic. Likewise, you can try the topic on www.bj21.com on the free pages, or on the beginner page at www.rge21.com. You may get more tolerance for this topic at those sites.
--Mayor
Knowing the difference
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Oct-2004 22:29:38 (#10483)
I agree with you Mayor that pseudoscience and false mathematical reasoning shouldn't be encouraged. But these are newbies who have no way of knowing the difference. Being you're a professor who undoubtedly deals with students who have a tiny fraction of your innate ability and training I'm sure you're familiar with how far you have to break a problem down in order to get the message across. Perhaps an explanation of exactly why these beliefs are fallacies would be in order, and prevent these issues from being revisited. Or maybe you could write a roundup of the common fallacies debunked, post them here and refer offenders to the relevant section.
Well said
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Oct-2004 23:55:24 (#10487)
I completely agree with you, the new players who have these false ideas need to be encouraged to find out the truth, not insulted for their wondering about these ideas. I don't mind questions that ask why these systems are wrong, that is not what #2 says. What I dislike are posts that encourage or advocate this type of thinking, or in any way treat the subject as one that can lead towards an advantage.
As to why clumping is wrong, well, the real question is, what does "clumping" mean in the first place? I believe it means that in the play of the hand, certain cards tend to be grouped an then collected together, then those same cards somehow end up close to each other through the shuffle, and then the fact that they are close can be taken advantage of the next time through the shoe.
In fact, this is exactly how ace tracking/sequencing works. But in this case, you are using all your power to try and find and steer 1 or 2 aces through a shoe/shuffle, and even in the best conditions, this is a lot of work with little hope for a sustained pay-off.
Clumping seems to imply that you don't really need to track, just watch for some low cards to come out, as in "low follows low". This is faulty logic. A Two-pass riffle and restack (very rare) will separate most cards that were next to each other by at about 3 cards. But there are a number of breaks (each time the cards are cut) so about 1 in 7 adjacent cards will end up really far apart in a 2-pass R&R. And if you throw in a strip -- well, just forget it. If the individual deck portions are shuffled before the restack (very common) then only Shuffle Tracking gives an edge here, nothing else can be said about the relative order of the cards.
A step-latter shuffle (the most common) will separate cards anywhere from 1 to 310 places apart.
And so on.
Shuffle tracking works, but it is a complex and difficult subject. Clumping is pseudoscience, and will not give the player an edge.
Hope this helps.
By the way, in my book, I have about 10 small chapters debunking various blackjack mythologies.
--Mayor
Thanks Mayor
Posted by Jay on 15-Oct-2004 10:22:06 (#10492)
Yeah be easy on me guys! I hope you understand that I am in no way advocating that there even is such a thing as clumping. I am just very new to the game and have to ask questions about topics that are hard to find info on. This board is fantastic for just that purpose. I am sure that at one point when we were all new to the game, these questions came across our minds. And please, Mayor, don't think that I am deliberately trying to go against the rules with this post. I had no idea until now that "clumping" was even mythology.
Thanks again everyone!
pertinent article
Posted by gui on 15-Oct-2004 20:25:47 (#10499)
I was once fascinated by the phenomena of clumping.
In a crowded table BJ are stacked first; then busted hands(T-smallcard-T) etc...
Fortunately i've made simulations and found ASHES!
www.bjmath.com Use the engine on this site and find the article:
In search of clumping... ,Abdul Jalib
ASHES !
Here is a link and a quote
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Oct-2004 21:48:58 (#10500)
http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/conseq/clumping.htm
From the article...
... the effects are very small, only about as large as removing
a single card from a six deck shoe, which any card counter knows
is worth very little.
... the clumping effect can be observed, but it's miniscule in size, much
smaller than the effects I revealed above.
The simulations I've done here, and back in 1990, should have been
done by the clumpers long ago, long before they ever dreamed of trying
to exploit clumps in the casinos, long before they ever dreamed to
declare that clumping was real and not a perceptual artifact. By not
doing their homework, they got things pretty much exactly backwards,
and vastly overestimated the strengths of the effects and the impact
of casino shuffles on normal players and counters.
Non Random Shuffle
Posted by DoubleO/Soul on 16-Oct-2004 18:12:23 (#10504)
I recently purchased the Ace Tracking book I first read about on this board.
I do agree that it is a most difficult thing to master.
What struck me though, was in the book the words "non-random shuffle" appear over and over and seem to be the basis for being able to track aces.
My question is, are there any other advantages available to players for tracking segments in the non ramdom shuffle. I have not read the shuffle tracking books.
Specifically, I play mainly DD hand shuffled games. Any advice on other books that explain any advantage gained from exploiting non random shuffles?
THANK YOU!
A suggestion
Posted by Sohrab on 17-Oct-2004 14:52:49 (#10506)
Maybe on the left side of the page in those links could be one called "blackjack myths and why they're wrong" or something and you could post simple explanations of why these things are wrong. Then when someone new comes and asks we could all say "look over there".
The Card Clumping Myth by Bryce Carlson
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Oct-2004 23:40:03 (#10511)
The Card Clumping Myth by Bryce Carlson
...here - http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/crdclump.htm
online BJ
Posted by Tom on 14-Oct-2004 15:15:03 (#10464)
Can you make money playing blackjack at online casinos?
Yes, but...
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Oct-2004 16:27:56 (#10467)
... the profit-expectation is derived from the 'matching-deposit' bonuses, not from counting.
And while we are on the subject, I am informed that online poker can be more profitable than online BJ, without any advanced-theory or expertise. zg
Yes
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Oct-2004 16:38:54 (#10469)
It is my understanding that there is a lot more edge by bonus hustling poker sites. I know someone who does this full time.
--Mayor
Online play
Posted by Illusion on 14-Oct-2004 18:57:52 (#10475)
If your a decent player you can make some money on the bonus's alone that the sites give you as a first time depost. I find playing at peek hours, there is lots of bad players, all to eager to give away there money to you. The low limit No Limit games are easy cash, and you can make more then you would think on a 1cent/2cent no limit game.
on-line blackjack scams.
Posted by The original Tom on 14-Oct-2004 23:41:22 (#10486)
I never gamble on internet blackjack. Do some internet research and you'll see the terrible ways companies will scam people. Also be aware of the pesty trolls who are affilliates to internet gambling and promise you riches.If you must play internet BJ, i'd be carefull.
I have played online BJ
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Oct-2004 00:00:04 (#10488)
I have never had a problem playing BJ online. Microgaming has their program audited by Price-Waterhouse. I have always felt very comfortable playing against on-line casinos that use a MG program.
Also, "The Wizard of Odds" (Michael Shakelford) certtifies on-line casino games. I trust the games he audits.
There is simply too much money TO BE LOST by offering games that have defects to cheat the player, and too much money TO BE WON by offering fair games.
Bonus hustling is still a valid method of earning income, though not nearly as easy as it was. I have done it. I played in 20 different casinos, cashing out a winner in 18 of them, losing my bonus in 1, and coming out even in the other. I know others who have done it to great advantage and who continue to do it.
If you don't want to play online casinos, that's your business.
--Mayor
Online bonus
Posted by Tom on 15-Oct-2004 05:10:33 (#10489)
I am interested in finding out more about bonus hustling, and getting some more advice on the best games to play online. Someone mentioned Texas Hold 'em?
Never been scammed
Posted by Sonny on 15-Oct-2004 11:16:02 (#10493)
I have played over 30 online casinos and have never been scammed. As long as you are careful about which casinos you play with you shouldn't have any problems. There are definitely unsafe casinos out there, but as long as you stick with reputable software with a reputable audit company you should be fine.
-Sonny-
Read the fine print though
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Oct-2004 12:01:24 (#10494)
More and more casinos are not including BJ in their action requirements, or allow it only at a very reduced rate. There are also "sticky bonuses" that can't be cashed in and other tricks that can lead you to believe you're getting something that you're not.
A ticking time bomb.
Posted by The original Tom on 15-Oct-2004 17:51:52 (#10498)
Sooner or later you'll see what i'm talking about,you can only dodge bullets for so long.
Sorry, but I dont trust internet gambling,never have,never will. The so-called auditors mean nothing to me. If a casino dont want to pay you,you're out of luck,period. In case you're interested watch out for the latest scam=hidden netpay bonus*100 wagering requirements.
Legalities
Posted by oldnewbie on 15-Oct-2004 06:59:23 (#10490)
I live in the Texas. If I win at an online casino and they refuse to pay, do I have a legal recourse?
oldnewbie
Sad not seeing Rob McGarvey chime in anymore *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 15-Oct-2004 15:44:09 (#10496)
BJ At An AP Level...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 14-Oct-2004 22:15:00 (#10482)
has taught me valuable lessons about money. Unlike in my past, I now have a deeper respect, awareness and appreciation for it right down to the last penny. Everywhere I go, everything I do, even the grocery store, I crunch numbers much more than I ever did before my AP endeavors. I equate money in my regular life to the bullets I sweat during my hours at the tables. For every 1 - 2 bucks I can save in my daily activities, I can save having to risk a $100 on the tables in order to hopefully get it back.
Hence, the higher the level of AP we achieve, the richer we will be in our non-AP daily lives.
Mayor, that's my personal position when it comes to "Blackjack and Life". A possible excerpt for your book. Maybe, maybe? Perhaps I'm not alone with this phenomenal achievement.
You're not alone
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 14-Oct-2004 22:37:07 (#10484)
Funny you mention that. I became a counter almost exactly one year ago, and the understanding of EV and the relationship between time and money has helped relieve me of a habit that has plagued me since I was 15. It's so humiliating I don't even want to say. But knowing and remembering how hard I have to sweat at the table to earn $200 is sobering and enlightening.
Amazing, how a game like blackjack can become a paradigm for truth and life that can help you in so many other ways.
agree
Posted by Illusion on 14-Oct-2004 23:27:04 (#10485)
I am on the same page as you guys. I started a Blackjack journal and kept track of my winnings and losses. Soon after I started an accounting book to see just wear all money I spend is going. I few weeks latter I found myself saving more money and not speading it on things I don't need.
Ultra vires
Posted by Gorgon on 15-Oct-2004 15:23:51 (#10495)
Spoken like a true Bohemian and ain't the loner's life just grand?
GoldenGate
Posted by KidDangerous on 15-Oct-2004 08:05:58 (#10491)
I took the time to read Golden Gate. Enjoyed it greatly.
I also read that you will be getting more out in
the near future. I am also looking forward to that.
I can't help but wonder about Paul. Is he real? Or
does he turn out to be your subconscious, personified?
I personally think we all have a Paul when we first start.
Paul keeps those that aren't truly committed out of the game.
Those that don't let "Paul" hold them back, become AP's.
I now toy with the idea that AP can double as
"Abolished Paul" or something like that. Anyway, nice read, looking forward to more.
Kid
Godspeed, St.Robo!
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Oct-2004 17:32:33 (#10497)
Some of the eulogies to St.Robo at the CCCafe. zg
--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, zengrifter wrote:
Rob and I both started frequenting the CCCafe in '99 when there was very little traffic, and we hit it off famously. Our relationship took a nosedive in 2002 when my racketeering conviction became public (see ZG Interview http://cardcounter.com/Interview_Zen_Grifter.htm), and our feuding became equally famous. Whether we were cooperating or fighting Rob and I always enjoyed much passion in the interaction.
While I was away at federal prison camp, Rob inquired if he could do anything for me, and he assisted my ex-wife with a matter that was important to her.
When I returned to society Rob once again wanted to know if he could do anything for me, even while we publicly resumed our feud.
In the final analysis, Rob was my fan, and I was his. I would rather have him here to feud with than not at all.
Godspeed, St.Robo! zg
--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, leptokurtotic wrote:
I know he is in a better place now. My condolences to his family.
Farewell to a genuine gentleman and friend.
LK
--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, Colin Ross wrote:
> When I read the email yesterday, I was shocked as every one was (
I left it till today, till John had checked the info ) Rob made the
operation sound as if it was just a normal run of the mill one, and
he would be ok in a few weeks, but sadly the fickle hand of fate
delt Rob his last hand, I like a few people in this group, have
never met Rob in person, but over the past year or so, have come to
regard him as a friend. He was always ready to help others cc or not
( like me ) and I feel was a true genuine gentleman and will be
sadly missed, and they will be a BIG hole left in this forum
>
> I hope the blackjack gods are looking after you Rob
--- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, ted_forrester wrote:
> This is terribly sad. I, too, have never met Rob in person, but
over
> the past few years have come to regard him as a friend. He was
> always ready to help others and never seemed to lose his
infectious,
> positive outlook on life (and the afterlife).
>
> When I first joined the CCCafe, I was going through difficult
times.
> The kind welcome I received, and the encouraging atmosphere I
found
> here, have always meant a great deal to me. Rob was one of the
main
> people responsible for that and I will never forget it. I miss him
> already.
>
> Ted
>
> --- In blackjackcardcounterscafe@yahoogroups.com, "Sisyphus wrote:
> >
> > I remember the first time I made a post here, lamenting my
> misfortune at the tables.
> >
> > Rob`s response:
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Dear Silly Phyllis, or Phallus,
> >
> > Whatever!
> >
> > Such words that spring forth from thine eloquent
> > tongue, there must be a place for you writing scripts for
> > highschool plays somewhere. Dare I say, "I'd give my kingdom
> > for an income"? But I shant! As the wise sucking
> > creature has issued forth (sorry AP..grin) I shall seek my
> > means in less than high places for a steadiness of
> > income, not to be tossed as if at sea by the will of
> > those treacherous cards. I shall not allow fate to
> > issue me the dead mans hand, and chose to take hold of
> > my finances as a lustful rouge grasps his lovers
> > hair, clutching it violently as he issues forth his
> > seed (oh brother!)...
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > This was almost 4 years ago ... I`m chuckling now reading it. He
> was
> > a character, and a renegade saint. In practice, I`m not sure I
> ever
> > felt entirely comfortable with some of his views, but that never
> > bothered Rob in the slightest.
> >
> > He spoke his truth, and reached out to anyone who might need
help.
> In
> > Reno, during some tough times, quick as a whip ... a signed copy
> of
> > his book was sent to my residence, accompanied by some valuable
> info.
> > A short while later, and 5K richer, I have Rob to thank for
> keeping
> > me afloat.
> >
> > I am one of many people quietly helped by Rob.
> >
> > Light years ahead of the greater BJ community, playing with
> > advantages never dreamed possible by previous generations, his
> > passing is a loss to us all.
> >
> > We`ll miss you Rob.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Syph
Condolences
Posted by wongout on 15-Oct-2004 22:35:38 (#10501)
I never had the pleasure of meeting Rob (or many other APs for that matter). This is a "solo" avocation for the most part, but I always enjoyed Rob's posts as on-target. I am sorry that I didnt get a chance to kow him better but am glad that he is now in peace.
wong out
Victim of Socialized Medicine!...Hey!
Posted by phantom007 on 16-Oct-2004 03:48:52 (#10502)
Hopefully, this is a "ruse", i.e., "The rumors of 'my' death have been greatly exaggerated!" Maybe he was barred by so many Internet and Land-based stores that he just found it easier to "go under-ground", and reappear with a new identity, plus +EV from life-ins. proceeds!
HOPEFULLY!
Never participated much in CC.Cafe....could never seem to follow the threads.
However, on this site, R.McG was a frequent and expert poster.
To this BJ-wannabe-B/R-limited player from the midwest, he responded to many of my personal e-mails as regarding "Canada fishing, BJ ?'s, and the like", and he always added......"Make $$$ Bonus Hustling", followed by a "Link" wherein he would get a referral bonus. He treated me like an important player, even though, I am not.
R.McG obviously knew what he was doing! Probably should have paid more attention to his "Bonus Whore" systems! On my few trips into Internet Poker, I cannot get past the 5% commision for PayPal.
Anyhow, just got back from Tunica, and have to read this SH#T! Played about 47 SD "above the mean"! In one session, I went from a Red-Green player with about a 25% ROR, to a Green-Black player with about a 1% ROR!!!!!!!! And this is AFTER my "personal $" have been set aside for other uses, such as, well, you know, bills and such.
I (or someone) won so much that it had to be cashed in over 4 separate visits to the Cashier's Cage...3 down, one to go (in November)....don't want the IRS notified of this one!
Probably my skill......maybe.....mostly betting Table Max. the last hour, and making Play and Ins. decisions only.
Or more probably.....just lucky!
BUT....IF.....Ron McGarvey was helping me or "the cards"?
Hmmmmmmm?!
phantom007.
MIT blackjack teams
Posted by Schuey on 16-Oct-2004 10:20:40 (#10503)
Hi there,
I know roughly about the MIT card counting teams' (the amphibians and the reptiles) strategy, with the teamplay (spotters, back spotters, gorillas, big players etc) and that they used card counting.
But I wondered if anyone knew the ins and outs of their strategy more preicisely, was it a variation on the high-low count? And what other blackjack strategies did they use in addition to it.
If anyone can help please email me at ski_the_powder69@hotmail.com
Cheers
read or watch
Posted by victoria on 17-Oct-2004 12:10:11 (#10505)
I think you can read about them or watch the movie made though I am sure there are things left out.
The thing is, no one here should post any real inside information. Not saying that you might work for a casino but others who do certainly monitor websites like this.
Hypothetically, of course.......
Posted by phantom007 on 17-Oct-2004 23:28:57 (#10509)
IF, I had a team of 10 Players, each making $10k/mo. for the TEAM, and 1/2 to them, and 1/2 to ME,
AND IF, said team could only operate on a continuium with further expenses paid out to others, comprising 1/2 of MY said profits, then, it makes sense that:
IF, most Dealer's, P.C.'s, and Surv. People live on "marginal incomes",
THEN, a few $$$ here and a few $$$ there could make a BIG difference!
JUST my humble thoughts....at the moment.
HOPE R.McGarvey stuff is a "RUSE"....again!
phantom007.
other methods used
Posted by KennilworthKid on 18-Oct-2004 18:56:19 (#10520)
If you read Bringing Down the House, the author states the team had mastered shuffle tracking and ace predicting as well. Indeed, in the book there are two examples of those techniques being used, and another instance where shuffle tracking seems to be hinted at. The author does not point out these techniques though.
The first two examples occur when Kevin Lewis is being recruited by his friends, and they visit Atlantic City, where one friend uses Shuffle Tracking (he remarks that in a particular clump of 26 cards there are 18 high cards. Right after that, Kevin sees his friend Fisher, who is playing alone at a table, jump his bet after making several seemingly stupid plays. He draws an ace to win with a twenty. Fisher had been using ace prediction and ace steering to get the ace into his hand.
Later in the book, there is an instance where one of the spotters, Keanna I believe, sets up Kevin for a win by repeatedly hitting to draw out small cards. Again, this seems like shuffle tracking to get to the clump of high cards.
I enjoyed re-reading the book after studying the game. Many of the playing situations were much more meaningful to me on the re-read.
Ultimately the subsequent...
Posted by zengrifter on 19-Oct-2004 02:35:17 (#10522)
... generations of the team opted for simplicity - using HiLo with a modified +count basic strategy only, using +7 RC for the call in, and NO ace or shuffle tracking. zg
RE: Ultimately ..
Posted by Sun Runner on 19-Oct-2004 10:07:11 (#10525)
You said +7 RC for the call in. Is that what you meant to say?
Yes *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 19-Oct-2004 14:04:24 (#10528)
St. Robo in Wired
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Oct-2004 23:26:54 (#10508)
I just came across this, maybe some of you have already seen it. zg
---------------------------------------
Who's Holding the Aces Now?
http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,60049,00.html
By Daniel Terdiman | Aug. 18, 2003 | Wired.com
Rob McGarvey is, in the lingo of the blackjack world, an advantage player. A card counter. To maximize his take, he keeps track of the cards as they're dealt, and tailors his bets based on the cards his system predicts will hit the felt next.
Card counting, of course, is nothing new. Math professor Ed Thorp scorched Vegas with his groundbreaking 1962 book, Beat the Dealer, that detailed winning card-counting strategies. It's been a pitched battle ever since, with counters and casinos each developing new systems to stay one step ahead of the other.
An El Dorado casino dealer sets up a blackjack game at a MindPlay MP21 table. The high-tech system can help casinos spot card counters.A graphical representation of play at a MindPlay blackjack table. Casinos say the system, which can help spot card counters, tracks gamblers' play for legitimate purposes, such as increasing the accuracy of comp programs that reward frequent players.
But to hear some tell it, the casinos' latest offensive may be its strongest yet against McGarvey and his peers. That's because of a new optical pattern recognition technology called MindPlay MP21, which is designed to automatically track and analyze the play and betting patterns of every gambler at a blackjack table in real time.
...continued - http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,60049,00.html
Tributes to R.McG.........
Posted by phantom007 on 17-Oct-2004 23:39:17 (#10510)
ZG, thanks for the info. Nice to see that Ron is remembered as a feared player.
IMHO!
ph.7.
Important Info., albeit non-BJ......"idScan"......
Posted by phantom007 on 18-Oct-2004 00:14:09 (#10512)
A number of months ago, on bj.21, a post was made wherein one could get a free trail subscription to "CASINO ENTERPRISE MAGAZINE". I bit, and punched in Name, address, etc., then after a few months, pretty much forgot about it.
Then, after about 2-3 months, I started getting my monthly "trial" subscription. I had hoped this publication would give me insight into what "they" think of us, measures they take, etc.
However, said Publication is mostly based on SLOTS, SLOTS, and then, SLOTS!
Whatever, a "recurring" ad in this publication is for "idScan", a cute little device that will simply:
-----1. Scan your Driver's Licence, and determining within seconds, if said Licence is valid, legal, etc., plus provide Casino with your address, phone #, etc.
-----2. Scans will be copied and imprinted!
-----3. Same can read passports, Soc. Sec. cards, etc.
I was reading this SH#T in the presence of an Arkansas State Highway Patrolman.
I said, "This is an invasion of privacy!"
He said, "We already have those units in our vehicles......we are waiting for an upgrade that will also display your Criminal and Financial records as well!!!
Certainly, I feel that most police officers should have access to my Criminal Record, but SH#t!, if I screwed some Sand-N#gger in a Business Deal, then who cares!
Fortunately, in Arkansas, THEY DO CARE!.....Got out of lots of speeding tickets this way!
GRIN!
phantom007.
privacy
Posted by oldnewbie on 18-Oct-2004 09:04:54 (#10513)
Nice attitude! And you probably still can't figure out why the Arab world is so mad at us.
oldnewbie
Don't Really Care! *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 18-Oct-2004 23:32:57 (#10521)
-2,2,2,2,2,2,1,0,-1,-2
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Oct-2004 10:26:05 (#10514)
Does anyone know if this count has a name or if anything has been written up about it? Thanks.
Don't know, but...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 18-Oct-2004 12:54:25 (#10516)
curious to know what its specific purpose would be for.
Same as -1,1,1,1,1,1,.5,0,-.5,-1 ?
Posted by Jaxel on 18-Oct-2004 14:11:39 (#10517)
I don't know, but if I was on desert island, and had to use it, I notice that it is obviosly a balanced count. I would go
-1,1,1,1,1,1,.5,0,-.5,-1
Other wise, I think the running count could get really high\low.
It's purpose
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Oct-2004 14:38:08 (#10519)
It's purpose is for use in high-spread shoe games, with it's very high BC. Ran a sim on it and found it to be about as good as HO2+A in that kind of game, and with some tweaking I might be able to get it to outperform it. Even if it's not quite as good it is certainly easier and it's something I could more easily teach others.
Close to Uston SS. (5 worth less)
Posted by Jaxel on 18-Oct-2004 14:18:06 (#10518)
Uston SS -2,2,2,2,3,2,1,0,-1,-2
You might want to try the Revere
Posted by Pet's-Pet on 19-Oct-2004 09:34:35 (#10524)
The Revere PC is almost the same (-212222100-2) with a BC of .98
(from Griffin), and I think the 2 & 9 are more accurately represented.
Problem with the 9.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 20-Oct-2004 18:04:22 (#10545)
Although counting the 9 as -1 helps with BC a little, you lose more power because:
a negative 9 hurts your IC (Insurance, most important play you can make).
it also hurts your 12 vs 2 12 vs 3 play indices.
You would do much better overall with:
-2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0, -2
try this one
Posted by gui on 21-Oct-2004 22:41:08 (#10568)
I learned (sidecount,1,2,2,3,2,2,1,-1,-3).
This was suggested in the first AP book I read.
I try to master the Hi-low after. But It seems to
me that is tough to change your card counting method (persistent
reflexes). This method is consistent.
First Book:
Les secrets du Blackjack, Pierre Courchesne (Don't
remember the editor)
After presenting the method and the strategy cards(covered with
indices), there are pure moments of mythology
-Leave the table after 3 losses (reapeated 3 times)
-if an unlucky dealer (busting dealer) switch table, follow him
-dont grab your bet after 3 consecutives wins
-11 vs ace*; double>10 (refers to true count)
-16 vs 6; hit<-40 (hit the bathroom?)
No statistics at all(EV,ROR, etc..)
(*maybe its good for europpean hole)
Anyway, I build illusions, I remembered my programming course(I hate programming),
I tried to find correlation between wins and losses, studied some
shuffles, I've been fascinated by card clumping etc..
I found myself a genius many times, my computer did not agree.
Its because of this book if I'm in it!!!
GUI
Your count is the Uston APC (to gui)(nt) *NM*
Posted by Pet's-Pet on 22-Oct-2004 10:25:28 (#10570)
EBJ count
Posted by Victor on 26-Oct-2004 17:44:07 (#10594)
Your count is the EBJ count in Richard Reid's e-book, "Dynamic Blackjack"
Maybe RReid changed the indexes and renamed it. *NM*
Posted by Pet's-Pet on 27-Oct-2004 11:06:55 (#10608)
shuffle tracking vsace prediction...
Posted by Jay on 18-Oct-2004 12:51:09 (#10515)
Hello,
Now that the mayor and others have dispelled the myth of clumping for me, I am wondering about shuffle tracking and ace prediction. I was wondering which is the best to use in a 6 deck game with 5-7 players. My thinking is that when you track aces, it would be beneficial to have less people at the table to give you a better chance of getting the A. But with shuffle tracking where we track sequences of cards, then I would think you have a better chance of getting a face card with that many people, rather than one of the aces. The reason I ask is that where I live, pretty much any time of day those are the conditions you have to face.
Thanks for any insights!
It depends
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 20-Oct-2004 16:31:55 (#10543)
It all depends on the nature of the shuffle being used. There are casinos with autoshufflers and others that use hand shuffles that are very difficult to track. Or rather, they can be tracked but the benefit you get from tracking them is minimal.
Ace sequencing is just a special case of shuffle tracking and if the shuffle is untrackable chances are the aces are also unpredictable. The big difference is that shuffle tracking is best used as an adjunct to card counting and spreading, while ace prediction can be used in place of it.
You can practice tracking the shuffle at your favorite store like so: buy 5 decks of cards with one color back and 1 deck with another. Carefully learn the shuffle, then reproduce it at home with the odd deck at different points in the shoe, and see where the odd cards end up.
that makes sense...
Posted by Jay on 23-Oct-2004 14:55:03 (#10576)
That clears a lot up for me, thank you very much!
Must read from today's LVRJ (Link)
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Oct-2004 12:25:06 (#10526)
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Oct-19-Tue-2004/news/25027617.html
when the earlier device was introduced...
Posted by gehrig on 19-Oct-2004 12:50:05 (#10527)
by mikohn, named "safejack", that system had a similar feature. the shoe sensor read the "upc's" on the cards as they were dealt. that information was transmitted to surveillance, and to a screen at the pit stand. deck "counts" were shown and decks which were "out of line" were noticed to the pitstiff. if that information was only used to focus attention on a possible card counter, that is little different than the approved software applications now in use. another feature of the earlier system was to sense (embedded) checque denominations from sensors under the layout. this ostensibly was to audit checque changes, color-ups, buy-ins, and player wagers. a comparison of player wagers and "the count" was available.
the problem with the suit as i see it is to establish that the device is more than a tool to identify and reward "premium" players as stated by the casino licensees. even card counter identification isn't illegal. if there were to be somehow documented instances where the information vis a vis, "the count", caused an early shuffle. that would be an alteration of the randomness of the game, and therefore, illegal. that's a touchy area since i've been at tables where a 'stiff has casually scanned a layout of exposed cards and either ordered a shuffle, or told the dealer "one more round".
Bout F'n time!!!!
Posted by suicyco maniac on 19-Oct-2004 19:24:44 (#10534)
Bob is one hell of a stand up guy from everything I have heard bout him. We should all thank him for standing up for players rights. SM
Especially if a shuffle card is used
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Oct-2004 20:28:00 (#10535)
When a shuffle card is visible to a player and they shuffle earlier, they have deceived a player into sitting down and placing a bet with the false pretense of using a shuffle card. Doesn't sound kosher to me.
cut card nonesense
Posted by suicyco maniac on 19-Oct-2004 20:35:16 (#10536)
I have seen a game that is set up just this way....DD cut card about 75% but they deal Rule of 7 so the game is way under 50% pen... yes RO7 in DD!!! The best part is they even have a little cheat sheet on the back of the table limit sign to help the dealers with the different # of rounds for the different number of hands being bet. Why they even have a cut card is beyond me. SM
Link to copy of complaint *LINK*
Posted by Al Rogers on 20-Oct-2004 15:18:17 (#10542)
Click below.
Mindplay
Posted by Ohio Jones on 21-Oct-2004 01:20:54 (#10553)
was reading an article at caesars a couple days ago in some casino mag. about the mindplay system. of course this article was saying how good it was for the player by keeping track of each players average bet to reward comps. saw it in use at lv hilton a couple months ago but didn't totally understand what it was.
Good for the player??? hah
Posted by Victoria on 21-Oct-2004 13:15:54 (#10560)
The good for the player stuff is pure BS (not basic strategy), it is just the public relations spin to convince the public to play at these tables. The real purpose, in the area, of comps is to make sure that no one is getting MORE THAN THEY DESERVE. It kills the strategy of the comp hustler and some corporate beancounters think by doing this they will save the company a ton of money.
If they also shuffle early on positive counts it will also hurt the average player. In this case it is (my opinion) a cheating device. The absolute beauty of it is that the ploppy would have no idea they were cheating him because he does not know the count or even that he has an advantage in certain counts.
Finally, even if all users of Mindplay promise to never use the ability of the device to shuffle early, as long as that ability is there, someone somewhere will use it.
Automatic Shuffle Machines
Posted by Schuey on 19-Oct-2004 14:48:52 (#10529)
How common are the automatic shuffling machines in casinos nowadays? When they are used is it always at the dealer's discretion as to when they are used or do some casinos only use automatic shuffling at the end of a shoe, I'm guessing different for different places but whats more common? What about differences in different parts of the world, does anyone know how the use of such machines in Vegas compares to the use in say Europe?
Also to what extent do the casinos changing the rules whenever they like midshoe kind of thing exist now?
Do you mean "Continuous Shuffle Machines?"...
Posted by phantom007 on 19-Oct-2004 23:33:38 (#10537)
ASM's, i.e., Automatic Shuffle Machines are GREAT for non-Wonging, non-tracking, non-sequencing CC's. While you are playing through one deck/shoe, the other is being shuffled. Minimal "downtime" between shuffles.....just put the "played" cards in the ASM, pull out the "Fresh" deck/shoe, someone cuts, and keep on playing! +EV just by having many more hands/hour!
In 6D for example, easy to lose 1/4th of one's playing time, just watching the Dealer shuffle cards......ZZZZzzzzzzzz..
Since I am still a N3-WTS, i.e., NON-Wonging, NON-Tracking, NON-Sequencing CC'er, I will most always choose an ASM game over hand-shuffled, if ALL other factors are equal.
Conversely, CSM's, i.e., "Continuous Shuffle Machines" are a "DIFFERENT ANIMAL". Basically, all unplayed cards PLUS ALL cards played to an ADVERSE Player decision, i.e., BUST CARDS, are "put back in the 'HOPPER', and played again. With FULL BORE, the exact same King of Hearts that busted your neighbor's '16', could be drawn again to bust your own '16'!
MOST CSM's utilize 5 Decks, or 260 cards. I have seen posts that suggest some advantage is possible playing CSM's. The theory goes like this:
---Dealer + Full Table (6-players), presume ave. of 2.7 Cards/Hand.
---If MOST cards are "little", BET-up, as the ODDS of more than 2-3 of THOSE SAME "little" cards reappearing the next hand are Minimal.
---If MOST cards are "big", BET-down, and with the same logic.
---Seems to me like playing KENO with BJ, but will await scientific review.
Europe....who knows? On bj21 in the last few months, there was a post regarding "Airport-BJ"....they used CSM's.
Hope this help answer your questions.
phantom007.
Old Style CSM's
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 20-Oct-2004 13:25:27 (#10541)
I believe it was Wong who exploited a latency from cards entering the hopper to being dealt for a big advantage. I don't know all the mechanics of it or if those machines are still around.
There are other CSM's that make it very easy for a holecarder to do his job. That's probably the biggest advantage of all if you can do it.
Please explain "Hole-Carder/Job" Stuff.....
Posted by phantom007 on 20-Oct-2004 22:23:58 (#10549)
If not suitable in "public", then maybe e-mail to CC-management, and maybe they will e-mail to me.
Thanks,
pH.7.
Real simple
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 20-Oct-2004 23:24:24 (#10550)
A holecarder is a player who is good at peeking at the dealer's hole card. I'm not very good at it, too tall, maybe I get a peek once every 1000 hands or so. But if you are a good holecarder and can find a sloppy dealer you can empty out the tray. Very nice when surrender is available. I've heard there are a few CSM's out there that discharge the cards in such a way that it's easy to see the hole card.
Some Chumash Casino "regulators" have serious criminal histories *LINK*
Posted by LVBear584 on 19-Oct-2004 16:54:42 (#10530)
At least seven of the 16 tribal gaming commissioners responsible for regulating the Chumash Casino since 1994 have backgrounds that would be likely to prevent them from working in or regulating casinos in Nevada or New Jersey.
My pals!
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Oct-2004 17:12:08 (#10532)
Thanks for the article, very funny. I don't recognize any names -- look for Armenta (As in Tony or Vinny) and you may find the real power behind the punch.
--Mayor
More of the story *LINK*
Posted by LVBear584 on 19-Oct-2004 17:32:27 (#10533)
Sorry, I meant to post both links in my first post.
beginner questions
Posted by amateur on 19-Oct-2004 23:59:50 (#10538)
Hi
I am in the learning stage of the hi/low system. Wanted to know what is the best way to keep up with the dealer. Do I count the cards one at a time as they are dealt? Do I count by two cards that are dealt to each player before any action? Or do I attempt to count the all the cards on the table by seeing how many minuses and pluses and than add that to my running count? I read Stanford Wong'"Professional Blackjack" but nowhere does it mention what is the best way to actually count. Any help would be greatly appreciate and if you have anymore advice for beginners, please post it.
Thanks,
amateur
Match them up
Posted by Schuey on 20-Oct-2004 13:09:52 (#10540)
Im a beginner aswell, I find it easier to match the card up on the table so if there is a 10-5 dealt it equals zero, if theres a 10-10 and a 5-6 they combine for a zero, match them off and then add or subtract extras, I reckon that is the easiest quickest way to count in my opinion and I was also told that it was the best way by a professional card counter a short while back.
FACE DOWN, ASS-UP.........
Posted by phantom007 on 20-Oct-2004 23:24:52 (#10551)
Face Down, Ass-up, that's the way I like to Fu#$%^&*!
Andrew Dice Clay, circa. 2001.
But seriously, it kind of depends on if you get to touch your cards, i.e., FACE-DOWN, or NOT, i.e., FACE-UP.
In FACE-DOWN games, such as most remaining SD and DD, YOU HAVE TO COUNT THE CARDS as you see them. Certainly, "Cancellation methods" as suggested above are always operant. Once you get VERY GOOD at this task, you MUST add "CBI" to your arsenal, i.e., "Counting by Inference".
---CBI Example #1: Dealer shows Ace-up, checks H/C, and ain't got it! Since I use AOII, can immediately add "+1" to the RC, for Play decisions...certainly Dealer could have an Ace or 8 or 9 "down-below"....BUT is more likely to have a 2-7....WE now know he/she ain't got a 10!
---CBI Example #2: Player to your right DD's 6,5, peaks at the drawn card, which you have not seen, and starts "Hooping, Hollering, and Touching His/Her own Private Parts!"......THEREFORE, by Inference, THEY GOT A "10"!....minus 2 for you.
---CBI Example #3: Player to your right has been losing all night. Pulls $$$ from billfold, and announces "Cash Plays!"......draws a 7,4.......pulls out more cash to DD, then peeks at drawn DD card, and RUNS from the Table. Obviously, he/she drew an ACE! Plug it in to your side-count.
FACE-UP games, usually 6D, ARE MUCH MORE CHALLENGING, at least, from the right side of the Table. From the "LEFT", a player can basically look at Dealer's up-card, then +/-/cancel, then add in their own cards, +/- those to the Left if applicable. BUT 1ST BASE on FACE-UP S#UCKS...even though NOT a Beginner, I am often staring at "Cards-to-the-Left" while the Dealer is expecting an Automatic Play decision.
Hope this info. helps your endeavor into BJ.
phantom007.
Casino personnel relationships
Posted by Sput on 20-Oct-2004 17:52:26 (#10544)
I've been studying some of the masters and I found a contradiction. Ian Andersen says to have close relationships with casino employees, to the point of being friends, to ensure you can play as long as possible, but Bryce Carlson says to be cold and professional with casino employees and even makes a veiled reference in "Blackjack for Blood" to Andersen being wrong. Which do you all think is right?
Anderson is correct. *NM*
Posted by Ouchez on 20-Oct-2004 19:06:06 (#10547)
If it is not hit and run
Posted by Victoria on 21-Oct-2004 13:00:59 (#10559)
If there are places in Vegas that are not overly sweaty at your bet level and you want to return or if there is a decent local Indian Casino near where you live, making a friend out of pit types can only help you. It can help you even if at some point they decide they do not want you playing blackjack anymore. They would most likely just back you off the game and not toss you and probably do it with some amount of class. The let me buy you dinner but no more bj approach.
There are places where I have played so often and pit types who must know what I am doing that I am sure my attitude and friendliness can only help. I also understand that if word did come to them from up above, they would have no choice but to act. I think it gets down to this; you have much less to loose if you are friendly.
To expand this a little. Think about how many ploppys, when loosing, treat dealers horridly and even complain to the pit about how bad things are. Though in certain instances I advocate blending in with the ploppy, I take the opposite approach here. Most pit types were once dealers and they know how it feels when everyone at the table is hating them for taking their money. We all know that in actuality they are just pulling the cards out of the shoe, playing by the house rules, making no decisions whatsoever that effect your win/loss. You might not love the dealer who just took your money but you will be appreciated if you do not jump all over him. Furthermore; at my local Indian Casino, nearly half the pit are dual rates. This means that the dealer you did not jump on yesterday might be the pit critter you run into tomorrow.
Sexual Discrimination!.....
Posted by phantom007 on 23-Oct-2004 22:55:01 (#10579)
Dear Ms. V:
Certainly agree.
With ALL said by She,
Excepting that Easier it would be,
If I had a P#ss-ee!
Always appreciate your posts! Disagree with nothing said above. Many "Pro's" suggest a "hostile" style....fine for those who can hit and run.....I just like to play the game!
Anyhow, will simply suggest that it is easier for a Female to play BJ long-term than those of us with high Testosterone levels.
Prejudice? YES! Discriminatory? YES! Just that I suspect that most Stores will allow females to "spread wider" and "penetrate deeper" into their Bank-rolls before getting concerned.
Just my thoughts.
phantom007.
female advantage
Posted by Victoria on 24-Oct-2004 15:08:10 (#10581)
Phantom
I agree, and I think months ago I wrote something here about the female advantage. It is just the stereotyping by the pits and the folks in the eye. You can blow this advantage by being obvious. Also with more women working in the pits these days it can make things a little tougher.
Finally, I do not if having a sex change is worth it to "spread more" or did you mean bet more??? Never can be sure with poetry.
Victoria
I like Andersen's approach better
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 20-Oct-2004 19:14:29 (#10548)
Because the decision to throw you out is going to be a judgment call. The decision to comp you will be a judgment call. I make it my business to flirt with female PC's all them time. It's not their money I'm taking, and they are not going to get in any trouble because a low level counter sat there and played for a few hours, so what incentive do they have to toss me rather than just let me play and enjoy the good feelings? Besides it's surveillance's job to evaluate your play anyway, and those guys up there would rather sleep and look down girls' shirts with the cameras than get involved with us.
When Carlson says "cold and professional" he might mean that's the way you should be after being detected as a counter and backed off or ejected. But "being cold" could be seen by some as "being a prick" and that's going to get you in trouble. And if the casino believes you're a "professional", you're history. Best bet is to do whatever the other people at the table are doing, and blend in.
2-1 blackjack special
Posted by Anonymous on 20-Oct-2004 18:36:32 (#10546)
In my state there is a local gambling paper that usually comes out around the first of the month but you can never be sure which day it will show up....anyway back when I was a coupon whore I would go around to the casinos every 4 hours or so just waiting to see when it came out...well I'm not so dedicated anymore but I still try to check everyday...anyway I looked for about 5 days and then for whatever reason forgot to look for two days...as luck would have it I'm headed to a friends house to play some video games and we drive by a casino and run in for the paper...we're sittin there playing vids and I stumble across 2:1 HOLY SHIT!!!!!! (it had been running 4 days already 10am to 3 and 10 pm till 2) it was 5pm when we found out and we had very little cash on us suddenly it became a mad dash to cash out a bunch of chips we were holding and I ran home to grab the 15K I had sitting there (the rest of our money was in the bank and this was a holliday weekend) we ended up with about 50K in cash and ran to grab our seats hoping that the promo was still running...we got there around 8 and didn't see any known APs also the DD game was empty (not our first choice with all the shuffling but the thought of covering all 7 spots appealed to us) the one shoe game was packed with ploppies... we flat bet quarters til 10 and finally got dealt a BJ "don't I get 2:1" "not on pitch only on shoe" SHIT!!!!! I color up my 1,600 in green and my friend just shoves his greens (about a G) in his pocket and runs to the shoe game I look over and there is now a known AP on third betting 3 spots and 3 other APs standing behind him and my friend so I just go step outside to call an outta state friend and tell him the tale..anyway I come back in and my friend says get your ass over here they will only let me bet 3 hands...in amazement I run over there and sure enough there is one open spot and none of the other APs are playing..I later found out the other APs had just found out about the promo and only had about 3K between them at the time of the promo so they just pooled banks for one night...the table is just killing us and the guy on third gets down to about 60 bucks and drops to one hand..I tell my friend to scoot over so I can cover 3 spots and this almost causes a fight...I tell the guy as soon as you make some money back I will give you your spots back but there's no sense in wasting them and we come to a truce...luckily (or unluckily) for me he quickly taps out and runs off to try to round up more cash...after he leaves we end up playing 6 spots for 4 hours and buy in for over15K in the process twords the end we make a comeback and end up down 5,225 also during this time another counter comes in to play the lone third base spot and bets 5 dollars a hand counting the cards and slowing the game we keep trying to speed him up but to no avail....the next morning after no sleep we arrive in the parking lot at 6:30 to hold our spot...finally at 9am the doors open for business but the pit doesn't open til 10...we sit there on the one BJ table til they bring the cards to open it up and tell us we need to stand up...(keep in mind we have been here 3.5 hours and physicly seated at the table for 45 minutes) I am about 5 feet away leaning against the wall when they give the OK and some 60 year old man wearing a fake mustache who just got there 5 minutes ago shoulder blocks me as I am sitting down knocking me out of my chair and takes my spot... if it wasn't 2:1 I would have knocked him the f*** out...he decides to play 20 a hand while his wife plays 10... He THINKS he is an AP and is not just a ploppy..anyway I only get 2 spots while my friend gets 3 the old man constantly tries to lay on an act by touching the cards and chips putting the double down money on top etc.. and the worst thing is he would only buy in 20 at a time just slowing the f*** out of the game...I had eaten McDonald's for breakfast and had some of the worst smelling gas I have ever had so I just kept laying them on this guy about every 3 minutes for 5 hours..he paid a heavy price for taking my spot..the dealers were getting mad but they didn't know who it was and my friend actually thought the dudes wife had crapped her pants..after an hour or so the casino decides to open another table and my friend jumps ship I spread to 3 spots and another whinny counter jumps in and takes 2..we end up losing another 875 on this shift..the rest of the story gets blurry as I was not sleeping during this time (I got an hour and a half sleep in 5 days) but we met a lot of APs we had never seen and finally got to talk to a bunch of locals we recognized but never talked to... The floor seemed to know exactly what was going on and treated us exceptionally well saying if the owners wont listen to us and want to give away free money why shouldn't we treat you good you are all betting table max anything you need just let us know..the rest of the promo reminds me of what I have read about the AC experiment in the 80s everyone just talked out loud and open about counting and games across the country and ups and downs and funny stories (we were all pinned as counters all ready so what the hell) Defiantly the most fun I have ever had playing this game...the house was still up for the first 6 days but then everybody started emptying the racks I had several 10K runs in 20 minutes only to lose back 11K in the next shoe or the last 15 minutes of the night I just kept splitting 4 times on one hand 3 on another doubling etc and losing 14-1500 a round..I would hear from the other players about how bad my friend was doing and about how he had 18 black chips riding on one round (starting with 3x100) cuz of splits and doubles and how he was getting the biggest ass kickin any of them had ever seen...anyway when it was all said and done we played 35 hours total (I thought it was 32 but I just re
counted) playing mostly 6 spots (one night we paid a friend to play a 7th spot) and I was up 2,200 but my friend dumped just over 15K and he ended up the only player to lose during this promo (I figured our win shold have been around 9K a day so this was a terrible run) ...I went in a few days later to cash out (they were paying everyone in 20s the last day) and talked to a the pit boss they were still really cool and told me anytime I'm hungry to just stop by and they would write me a comp weather I play or not and also just to come play and they wont sweat me as long as I take it easy on them and went on to say "%*@$%" (another local AP name witheld to protect the innocent) was in here this morning and won 1,500 a couple of days later I took her up on her offer and she was very nice to me and didn't sweat me one bit although my -1200 might have had something to do with it...she told me the house lost 50K (so the other counters made over 60) and she still can't believe they did it...
Casino seems to tolerate counters *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 21-Oct-2004 00:04:26 (#10552)
2-1 player's edge?
Posted by V-man on 21-Oct-2004 06:41:53 (#10555)
What's the player's edge flat betting 2-1 and playing BS?
It's strange that the casino would tolerate counters like you described.
The idea of promo is to attract ploppies of course not counters.
Edge
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Oct-2004 10:02:55 (#10556)
In the long run, 2-1 pays 1/2 unit more every 21 hands (since a blackjack pays 3-2, and the frequency is about 1 per 21 hands). This adds about 2.38% to your (the player's) side. So, the player's edge is 2.38% - (house edge playing BS).
I miss the 2:1 payoffs =(
Posted by Sonny on 21-Oct-2004 10:49:32 (#10557)
> It's strange that the casino would tolerate counters like you described.
> The idea of promo is to attract ploppies of course not counters.
Terribles tried a 2:1 payout on suited BJs last year. I saw quite a few people cleaning up, and a few unlucky (but skillfull) souls tap out. It was quite a scene.
Remember when Binion's used to have that at X-mas time?
Where have the good times gone?
-Sonny-
2:1 payoffs at Christmas
Posted by Fat Tony on 22-Oct-2004 23:44:45 (#10574)
Maybe Harrahs will try to resurrect the tradition by offering generous 3:2 payoffs on their 6:5 games on Christmas day
first time i was paid 2:1 during christmas week...
Posted by gehrig on 23-Oct-2004 16:45:02 (#10577)
lots of years ago, i bet for the dealer the next hand. she said "you thought i overpaid you on that last hand". i did.
only problem with that bonus was that it was only good up to $5 wagers. a $6 bet would be paid $9.
Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#10554)
Average no of hands per hour?
Posted by Schuey on 21-Oct-2004 13:22:17 (#10561)
These days, how many hands are played per hour, roughly, in a casino?
Depends on many factors.
Posted by SammyBoy on 21-Oct-2004 14:20:44 (#10562)
The number of players at the table.
The speed of the dealer.
The game (flop, pitch, number of decks).
Automatic Shuffle or hand shuffle.
Slow or drunk players.
Sounds low -
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Oct-2004 16:32:09 (#10564)
w/ 1-2 other players, double that. Heads-up triple, for me. zg
------------------------
"I would have to guess that I'm getting about 60 to 75 hands per hour on average."
Laughlin Trip
Posted by gross on 21-Oct-2004 16:29:52 (#10563)
I just returned from my first visit to Laughlin. I found the area to be very laid back, no traffic problems, inexpensive, decent food and generally friendly dealers, etc. Not like Vegas at all. I played at Flamingo (also stayed there), River Palms. Pioneer, Riverside, Golden Nugget, and Colorado Belle. In general the smaller the joint - the friendlier the people. Comps were easy to get. All of the single deck that I saw was 6:5. I played double deck almsot exclusively. I played one session with a 6 deck shoe. The best double deck in the palces I played was easily at the nugget. Best rules - best penetration. most of the other places were double on 10-11 only and no RSA. I would rank the Flamingo second (good penetration w/ some dealers) and the Palms 3rd. The Colorado Belle was easily the worst rules. You won't find any winners there!
The best session I had was 2 deck at the Flamingo where I was up 600 units in 1.25 hour session. Another AP at the same table was able to play 2 spots and did even better. Interestingly, a lady at first base who asked us what to do on every hand did the best in this session. I now believe she was using the dumb act as cover since she seemed to want to deviate from BS when the count justified it. Could this have been the notorious Victoria at first base?
I flew in to Phoenix and drove there in about 3.5 hours. We don't have double deck games in the midwest and I was surprised by the frequent number of long runs of small cards drawn from 2 decks. Several times I observed runs of 9 or 10 small (2-9) which made my doubles and splits "iffy". Is this typical for 2 deck? I also found it about impossible to shuffle-track the 2 deck game which I can do with the standard 6 deck shuffle. It was an enjoyable trip, I made some money and found the pace much more to my liking.
Good report, but is that number correct?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Oct-2004 16:51:50 (#10565)
I've heard lots of good things about Laughlin.
600 units in 1.25 hours... with other players and giving advice? Say 100 hands per hour, that's over 6 units per hand average... that can't be right.
60 units
Posted by gross on 22-Oct-2004 09:05:56 (#10569)
Sorry
Typo! Should be 60 units.
So 1D is DEAD in Laughlin? *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Oct-2004 17:29:12 (#10566)
Laughlin SD
Posted by Counter-Intelligence on 23-Oct-2004 18:43:24 (#10578)
Last time I was there (Aug), GN was dealing a great SD game, Riverside had their usual SD games, CO Belle had the usu. D10 games, and there were plenty of H17 DD games there too. Perhaps they're all gone now, but that would be a pretty global change in a short time period.
nope
Posted by Victoria on 22-Oct-2004 10:30:35 (#10571)
Was not there, or if I was would not admit to it. Anyway, thanks for the idea. If I land up on a table with a couple of AP's I just might use that approach. Remember, if you do help everyone become a winner the casino will not have the money to pay you.
Victoria
My rule on advice
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-Oct-2004 11:19:35 (#10573)
When dealing with ploppies I give Basic Strategy advice only. This is because the casino does, all the dealers where I play will know BS and will give it if asked and they sell BS books in their own store. So no one really has any right to complain. I just say "Well the book says..."
The only problem I'll run into is if me and the ploppy have the same hand and an advanced play is called for due to the count. Then I have to call on some superstition.
Teaching BJ to the Ploppies
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 22-Oct-2004 23:59:35 (#10575)
The only problem I'll run into is if me and the ploppy have the same hand and an advanced play is called for due to the count.
This is why it's not worth doing at all. I have learned to just shut up and let them crash and burn on their own.
advice of any sort should be an adjunct...
Posted by gehrig on 24-Oct-2004 14:47:44 (#10580)
to one's act. proper advice either basic strategy, or based on some count, usually does nothing to enhance one's longevity. virtually *all* my noises, statements, checque movements, card handling, eye/head movements, body language, are orchestrated while "on stage". otoh, careful use of table talk, most always within earshot of some pitstiff, can justify that occasional hard 4 or 5 insurance wager.
True, but there's the Golden Rule
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Oct-2004 22:51:37 (#10586)
Even though all statements made are part of the act, just as I wouldn't want one of the more advanced players here to give me bad advice, so I avoid giving bad advice to others. It's a matter of honor. But still, you can make an accurate statement to your neighbor in the style of an ignoramus and hopefully the ignoramus part is what they will remember. They're going to see you're playing correctly anyway, no way to hide that.
not quite so...
Posted by gehrig on 25-Oct-2004 12:15:54 (#10589)
as to intentionally giving "bad advice"... why would anyone need to do that ? as to another player recognizing that you "play perfectly"... how can that be true unless they already know how to play correctly ? if you mean to say that they notice that you are "ahead", by making unusual strategy plays, that's handled by your table talk/act. it requires some table talk to insure those small hands, to split those tens, to split those 4's, to surrender, et cetera.
MIT Sues Alum Blackjack Experts
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Oct-2004 21:29:09 (#10567)
MIT Sues Alum Blackjack Experts Over Web Site
By Keith J. Winstein
Tuesday, October 5, 2004.
MIT TECH | Volume 124, Number 42
Four former members of the MIT Blackjack Team -- the subject of Ben Mezrich's 2002 best-selling book Bringing Down the House about MIT students who made millions in the 1990s by counting cards at Las Vegas casinos - have started two Web sites to cash in on the team's notoriety.
continued at - http://www-tech.mit.edu/V124/N42/42blackjack.42n.html
Highest Simplest BC Count?
Posted by mylittlepony on 24-Oct-2004 15:50:06 (#10582)
Hi, I was wondering if anybody has devised their own custom (preferably unbalanced) count that maximizes BC without regard to PE or IC. I usually follow basic strategy and I rarely take insurance anyhow, since I use the KO rookie system. Or better yet, a simple tweak to KO rookie that would give it a higher BC (is it even possible to have 100% BC?). Thanks for your time and input!
Either UBZII or UstonSS...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Oct-2004 19:28:34 (#10583)
...without getting into custom counts. Somebody post the card tags for both counts, please. zg
Here they are...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Oct-2004 21:05:44 (#10584)
...
UstonSS -
2,2,2,3,2,1,0,-1,-2,-2
UBZII -
1,2,2,2,2,1,0,0,-2,-1
The UstonSS would have a higher BC, I forget how much but I would guess it to be 98, anyone? They UBZ is a fine UB count and will work well with only a few departures, see - http://frontpage.inxpress.net/grinder/warehouse.htm zg
And here are your Uston SS playing indexes
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Oct-2004 21:46:46 (#10585)
You'll need these. These are for a S17, DOA, DAS, LSR game, 6 deck. Starting count is -24.
Insurance: 8
16 vs. X hit <-12
15 vs. X hit < 11
12 vs. 2 hit < 10
12 vs. 3 hit <-11
A7 vs. A hit <-8
11 vs, A DD >-6
10 vs. X DD > 8
10 vs. A DD > 8
9 vs. 2 DD >-6
9 vs. 7 DD > 8
8 vs. 6 DD > 0
A8 vs. 4 DD > 7
A8 vs. 5 DD > -2
A8 vs. 6 DD > -7
A7 vs. 2 DD > -8
A6 vs. 2 DD > -4
A4 vs. 4 DD > -11
A3 vs. 4 DD > 3
A2 vs. 4 DD > 8
A2 vs. 5 DD > -10
XX vs. 4 split > 23
XX vs. 5 split > 16
XX vs. 6 split > 11
16 vs. A surr > -30
16 vs. 9 surr > -17
16 vs. 8 surr > -2
15 vs. A surr > -3
15 vs. X surr > -19
15 vs. 9 surr > 1
14 vs. A surr > 4
88 vs. A surr > -13
2 ques. about SS#s -
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Oct-2004 01:23:04 (#10587)
1. what is the origin of these #s, self-generated or store bought?
2. do you have 1D and 2D #s?
Generated with CVIndex
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-Oct-2004 03:05:41 (#10588)
That's part of the Qfit package.
Never did SD or DD because I only get to play those games a couple of times a year, and because I already know HO2 which is clearly better in a pitch game. In a shoe game I'll take BC every time, but after running the sims the BC of SS was not quite high enough to overtake the power of HO2+A with the spreads I use. Maybe if I find a 8D game where I can get a huge spread down, like $3-$300, I'll try the SS on it again.
At what count do you have an advantage?
Posted by mylittlepony on 25-Oct-2004 21:07:49 (#10590)
In other words, at what running count do I raise my bet? Also, any betting strategy would be appreciated. Thanks again!
Advanced KO, complete system.
Posted by Syph on 26-Oct-2004 00:53:41 (#10592)
The tags were first posted by Kim Lee many moons ago, using 1/2 integer values. I`ve made some embellishments along the way, that make it a little more user friendly.
--------------------------------------------------------------
AKO
Tags 2-A: 1,2,2,3,2,1,0,0,-2,-1
Initial Running Count: -6 x number of decks
Key: -2 (any number of decks)
Pivot: 2 x number of decks
Eg:
1 deck, IRC -6, Key -2, Pivot 2
6 deck, IRC -36, Key -2, Pivot 12
* * *
Indices:
Follow Basic Strategy except for these deviations:
Running count at Key:
16 v 10, stand
11 v A, double
A8 v 5,6 double
RC @ Pivot:
16 v 9,A stand
15 v 10, stand
12 v 2,3 stand
10 v 10,A double
9 v 2,7 double
8 v 5,6 double
10, 10 v 5,6 Split
Take insurance when RC is at Pivot-2. (Ie, on 6d Insure at 10)
* * *
Betting:
Raise at Key, and parlay/ramp up to a Max bet at Pivot
Spread as large as you can get away with
Bankroll: 100 Max bets (approximately 1/2 Kelly, depending on the game)
Eg: You have $10000, thus ...
Max bet: $100
On single deck, 1-4 spread. So you would use $25 units. Raising to $50 at Key (-2), and parlay/ramp your bets to $100 at Pivot (2)
On 6 deck, 1-20 spread. $5 unit. Raise to $10 at Key (-2) and parlay/ramp your bets to $100 at Pivot (12)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats about it, pretty simple.
If anyone wants to sim it, you`ll find it outperforms (in multi-deck), Red 7 KO, SS, Hi-Lo, and UBZII.
(betting ramps could be improved, depending on game and play style. But in light of simplicity and versatility, the above recommendations should perform admirably.)
I would be amiss if I told you, however, that you are much better off playing poker.
Best,
Syph
Just wanted to say thanks...
Posted by mylittlepony on 26-Oct-2004 11:43:13 (#10593)
for the great system you posted, not many people would take the time to do that. Also, thanks to zengrifter and automonkey for the heads up on the other systems.
How much better is this than normal KO?
Posted by MJ on 26-Oct-2004 18:22:10 (#10597)
Hey Syph this is quite an interesting advancement to the KO Preferred System. My only question is how much better does this improved system perform then "out of the box" KO? I believe KO Preferred gives the player .78% in EV spreading 1-10 units in a 6D, DAS, 75%Pen. How much more EV could this level-2 count add?
Also would it be ok if I copy your post on another BJ Board so I can get the opinion of other experienced players?
Thanks for sharing,
-MJ
According to Mr. Lee...
Posted by Syph on 26-Oct-2004 19:50:10 (#10601)
It outperforms UBZII, but not by a great deal.
That said, it would be great if someone could sim it. Feel free to post anywbere you like.
I will emphasize, though, this is not my creation.
The tags I first saw posted by Kim Lee.
The IRC/Key/Pivot trick I lifted from another post on KO (then doubled the values)
And the consolidation of the indice matrix I blatantly stoled from Norm`s OK KO (which, incidentally, has optimal betting ramps for KO)
http://www.qfit.com/OKStrategy.htm
So If you used RA indices and optimal betting ramps, I suspect that AKO would be a strong contender. But I`ll stick my foot in my mouth and state that the system in my first post will outperform all other commercial unbalanced RC systems.
(but the difference between UBZII and AKO is probably negligible.)
Best,
Syph
Don't like AKO/UBZ- suggested mod
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Oct-2004 21:24:31 (#10604)
I've never really liked the "Zen" counts (with apologies to ZG!) where the Ace has a value half the ten cards. The goal is to strike a compromise between betting correlation and playing efficiency.
But this is not a place to compromise! You need BC, you need it every hand and only a tiny percentage of hands can you turn from losers into winners with advanced plays. Sure, it is very satisfying to do so and profitable of course. But why not use a full ace-reckoning count, and add a sidecount to improve your PE and IC? Or use an ace-neutral count for speedy play decisions plus the sidecount to get the BC up where it needs to be. With the half ace-reckoning systems you hurt both BC and PE and if you use a sidecount you have to use it for both play and bet decisions.
Here's an idea- maybe use AKO but count the Ace as -2 and the pip 10's as -1. That will get the weights of the Aces and ten cards right where they should be.
BUT, your HO2 is a poor compromise...
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Oct-2004 16:14:06 (#10615)
... if you only use a quarter-deck Ace density estimate for betting. Without a seconday Ace count - 2s/5s +1, As -2 - you are better off with a level2 Ace-reckoned variety such as ZEN or RPC. zg
sorry, what is HO2??? *NM*
Posted by very curious on 09-Nov-2004 18:41:21 (#10798)
H02 = Hi Opt II *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 09-Nov-2004 20:18:53 (#10799)
"Advanced KO?" That's the original GeoC UBZ *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2004 19:04:11 (#10599)
RPC Lite
Posted by Syph on 26-Oct-2004 19:52:39 (#10602)
Not an unbalanced count, but I saw it over at Norm`s site and thought it deserved mention.
(While we are on the topic of counts)
http://www.qfit.com/revere-point-count.htm
Best,
Link to (free) Sept. 2004 trip report - Part 1 - on BJI *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 25-Oct-2004 23:26:00 (#10591)
I was able to convince Henry Tamburin to allow my September 2004 trip report - Part 1 - to be posted in the free half of current issue #57 of the Oct. Blackjack Insider Newsletter. Part 2 will appear in next months issue, also for free. As you may know, the BJI newsletter recently went to a subscription basis, in which half the articles were still able to be read for free, and the other half's articles were available only to subscribers who paid the $19.95 yearly fee. Up until this month, my trip reports were being posted only in the paid half. This is probably the last time that the trip reports will be posted in the free half. I've been advised that they'll continue to be in the paid, subscription only half ever after. Below is the link to Part 1.
Cheers,
Barfarkel
Sounds like a sales pitch to me...
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2004 17:58:37 (#10595)
... take a hike, spammer! zg
Hmmm....
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Oct-2004 18:46:04 (#10598)
Well, there are nicer ways of saying it... but then, ZG, you do have a reputation to uphold. 8-)
I personally hope that Barfarkel sells a few copies of his book, and am happy to promote his book, his trip reports, and Henry Tamburin's site here. I think there are very few people who take the time to genuinely write down their experiences, and there is a hunger for that type of writing. I also know Barfarkel personally and genuinely like him.
--Mayor
I say that anyone who buys his book via CC.com...
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2004 19:24:59 (#10600)
... should get a FREE SUBSCRIPTION to BJI! zg(all in favor say 'aye')
Actually, there is a discount *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 26-Oct-2004 21:53:10 (#10605)
I understand that BJI subscribers will be able to get a 30% discount on the book.
Actually, I tried to talk Henry into giving free BJI subscriptions for anyone who buys the book, but he's doing it backwards :-)
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Mayor and Titman. Who is this "Zengrifter" character anyway?
Cheers,
Barfarkel
Who is this "Zengrifter" character anyway?
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Oct-2004 20:05:42 (#10620)
Wanna know who I am - read my interview, spamfarkel are whoever you are, I make single bets that are bigger than your lifetime BR! zg
and to prove it...
Posted by gehrig on 27-Oct-2004 21:51:44 (#10624)
he still has the handcuff marks on his wrists.
Barfy's OK in my book.
Posted by Titaniumman on 26-Oct-2004 21:06:45 (#10603)
And, I'm okay in his book. Reference in his book October 2001.
So we went out, Magneto and Titanium Man. And the Crimson Dynamo came along for the ride.*
*Magneto & Titanium Man from Paul McCartney's Venus & Mars
What is the value of these new APC coupons?
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Oct-2004 18:05:39 (#10596)
What is the value of these new APC coupons? An analysis, please? zg
----------------------
http://casinoperks.com/booklet_gamingdiningcombopack.htm
CasinoPerks - Alternate/Play Certificates
Alternate/Play Certificates (APC) are similar to standard Match Play certificates in that they both pay odds on your bet, if you win. Some Alternate Play Certificates pay 2 to 1, others pay 3 to 2. Be sure to read the odds on the certificates before you use them.
Some APC's require that you make one regular bet before using them. Other APC's require that you make two regular bets before using them. PRIOR to using the APC, please check the restrictions printed on the certificate. In ALL cases, the regular bet(s) (second or third) must be equal to the dollar value printed on the certificate.
Prior to making your initial bet, you must first place your (APC) on the table and advise the dealer that you intend to use it on your second or third bet. The following is your guide to the restrictions and odds on our APC's:
REQUIRE ONE REGULAR BET PRIOR TO USING AND PAY 2 TO 1 ODDS:
"Key Largo", "Stardust" and "Terribles" (each pays two to one odds)
REQUIRE TWO REGULAR BETS PRIOR TO USING AND PAY 3 TO 2 ODDS:
"Slots A Fun", "Arizona Charlies" (Boulder) and "Arizona Charlies's" (Decatur)
Not sold to Nevada Residents???.....
Posted by phantom007 on 26-Oct-2004 23:39:10 (#10606)
I suspect, ZG, that this a trick question.
In the past, when I have posted that something has a +0.0007295% advantage, you sir have quickly and CORRECTLY pointed out that the advantage was actually +0.0007186! Why do you ask the value of these?
Now, you ask the advantage of APC coupons, which one can obtain AFTER paying $45. to get them, then spend about $400. (as a Tourist) in Taxi-fare to bounce around to multiple stores, so as to maybe win your ONE-TIME 3:2 or 2:1 pay-off?
Certain Coupons....those sent out by Stores, LV Advisor, and the like, are likely "redeemable"....how do we know that these are legit?
In this age of computers, my 19 year-old "Computer Arts" major son could likely duplicate in minutes, most any "coupon" that does not have "imbedded" safety features.....as could my 14 y.o. daughter, who has not yet been to college.
ZG, if I am wrong, and these APC's are valuable, please send me $100. cash. I will then buy you $45 worth of these coupons, and pocket the rest for S&H!
GRIN!
ph.007.
An answer and a request -
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Oct-2004 12:35:48 (#10609)
"Now, you ask the advantage of APC coupons, which one can obtain AFTER paying $45. to get them, then spend about $400. (as a Tourist) in Taxi-fare to bounce around to multiple stores, so as to maybe win your ONE-TIME 3:2 or 2:1 pay-off?"
-----------------------
I am able to get 10 books (50+ coupons) for next to nothing.
My request is that someone analyze the EV value of the two types of coupons described. zg
Quick approximation
Posted by LVBear584 on 27-Oct-2004 14:44:31 (#10611)
The "pays 2 to 1" coupon is worth about 47% of face value, the "pays 3 to 2" coupon is worth about 23% of face value. In other words, a $10 "pays 2 to 1" is worth $4.70, a $10 "pays 3 to 2" is worth $2.30. The EV of the coupon is only slightly reduced by the extra play requirements, because of the negligible expected loss on the hands you must play to be able to use the coupons. You still have a huge advantage with the coupons.
The real question is are the face amounts high enough to justify investing the time, cost, and effort to run through them. This will, of course, differ for each person.
Thank you!...
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Oct-2004 16:10:26 (#10614)
... you have justified my aquisition of the books. zg
2-1 coupon
Posted by V-man on 27-Oct-2004 20:19:29 (#10622)
Let's say you bet $10 per hand and play until you get the snapper. On average, you get BJ once every 21 rounds, so you have played around 20 hands at a BS house edge which is approximately .5%. 20 hands * $10 = $200 wagered, which translated to a loss of $1.00 (-0.5%), but since you got the snapper, which normally paying you $15 now pays you $20, your actual EV is $4 ($5 - $1), $4 profits from $200 wagered is 2% EV.
Usually, I play a couple of hands after the snapper and see if the count is negative, I dunk.
The 2 to 1 coupons zg refers to are match plays, not 2 to 1 bj coupons *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 27-Oct-2004 23:26:48 (#10625)
NOT "match-play" - "APC"
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Oct-2004 12:39:34 (#10632)
Some Alternate Play Certificates pay 2 to 1, others pay 3 to 2. Be sure to read the odds on the certificates before you use them.
Some APC's require that you make one regular bet before using them. Other APC's require that you make two regular bets before using them. PRIOR to using the APC, please check the restrictions printed on the certificate. In ALL cases, the regular bet(s) (second or third) must be equal to the dollar value printed on the certificate.
Prior to making your initial bet, you must first place your (APC) on the table and advise the dealer that you intend to use it on your second or third bet.
You must play the required preliminary hands to be able to use the coupon
Posted by LVBear584 on 28-Oct-2004 13:46:32 (#10634)
After the play of the required preliminary hands, the 2 to 1 coupon is exactly like a match play. The 3 to 2 coupon is a cheap version of a match play, where your bet is matched by an extra half bet.
If my understanding is incorrect, my approximate value may also be incorrect. Please advise.
I haven't seen one yet...
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Oct-2004 15:03:30 (#10635)
...but my inyerpretation was that the coupon provides a bonus payoff... I guess that's the same as a matchplay. zg
See New Post Above! *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 28-Oct-2004 00:34:08 (#10626)
Easy-peasey!
Posted by Sonny on 27-Oct-2004 11:06:34 (#10607)
Just wait for a plus count, play the required hands at an advantage, then play the coupon. Even if the count tanks during the required hands the coupon will still give you an extra advantage on the last hand.
The cumulative advantage will depend on how many hands you have to play prior to using the coupon and what TC you are playing at. I suspect that the penalty from playing 1-2 "warm-up" hands will not lower the coupon's value very much if you play it cleverly.
-Sonny-
Slight disagreement
Posted by LVBear584 on 27-Oct-2004 14:50:14 (#10612)
Just wait for a plus count, play the required hands at an advantage, then play the coupon.
My approach would be to quickly play them off the top of the deck and move on. The expected loss on the required hands is so insignificant so as not to be worth wasting time back counting a game, and risking annoying the pit and/or the ploppies. This is particually important if you want to churn many coupons through the same pit without being noticed.
2 to 1 blackjack
Posted by gross on 27-Oct-2004 17:14:31 (#10617)
I played at the Riveria briefly last week. A guy at my table used a 2 for 1 on the first blackjack coupon that he said came from the LV Adviser. The coupon simply stayed on the table until he got the next blackjack (max 25$ bet). After several 25$ bets he collected his $50 snapper (+ his 25$ bet of course). Losses didn't take the coupon off the table. I assume they expect most users to lose most of those 25$ bets before cashing the coupon. Nice coupon in my opinion.
New Feature in Top Picks section
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Oct-2004 16:19:51 (#10616)
There is a new link in the "Top Picks" section, the "Top Games in Vegas" link. This takes you to a table that lists the *best* blackjack games currently offered in Las Vegas (based on the Auston-Schlesinger SCORE system), and is posted here courtesy of Fine Tuner and bj21.com.
Enjoy!
--Mayor
excellent addition, but...
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Oct-2004 19:06:59 (#10618)
... we need the top 20. zg
To get the top 20...
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Oct-2004 19:27:06 (#10619)
You'll have to join Green Chip over at bj21.com.
Balderdash! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 27-Oct-2004 20:10:15 (#10621)
Screwing my Ex-wife...........
Posted by phantom007 on 28-Oct-2004 01:02:23 (#10627)
For over a decade, my "soon-to-be-ex" and myself enjoyed many stays at Casino X in LV.
Over the years, likely in one of MY drunken stupors, I used HER Player's Card instead of Mine.....and lost lots of $$$!
Now, due to Divorce, I sent Casino-X "change of address forms". Said "Casino-X" has acknowledged my mailing, and is now sending, to my NEW Address, Coupons for both myself, plus SATAN (i.e., the soon-to-be-Ex), offers for Free Rooms, Matchplay, free meals, etc.
Offers to Satan are 3-5x more valuable than Mine! Even though she rarely played anything more than 25-cent slots!
Anyhow, my name (say Sam) and her name (say Sammi) are so close that "I CAN USE HER PLAYER's Card and Still GET BY WITH IT!
Therefore, next LV trip, using Ex's Card, I plan to "SPREAD WIDE"....if she gets BARRED, WHO CARES?!
GRIN!
phantom007.
Ex's make the thought of remarriage....
Posted by Learning to count on 28-Oct-2004 05:01:32 (#10628)
scairy. Congrats on getting rid of that anchor. I hope she starts going every weekend to the casino and get's addicted to the slots, roulette, and 6/5 single deck. Life gets much better after the smoke clears!
Be careful - x'es love to take revenge
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 28-Oct-2004 10:11:28 (#10629)
They can rat you out to every casino and give them your picture and tell what you do. I'm quite convinced that my x-stepmother ratted me out to a local casino. I can no longer step foot on their property.
We really shouldn't let anyone know what we do in casinos. Unfortunately a few people find out. Eventually most everyone becomes a foe for some stupid reason, then they run their mouth.
Just this once, non-blackjack
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Oct-2004 11:13:08 (#10630)
Congratulations to all New England!
It took an act of God, or at least, a conspiracy of numbers. Consider this:
The number 86 means to kill or exise (or tresspass).
The BoSox had their biggest humilation in 1986.
It has been 86 years since their last World Series win.
The RedSox won exactly 86 regular season games the last year they won the World Series, in 1918.
And if that isn't enough....
From the CNN web site, regarding the eclipse...
>Once in total shadow at 10:23 p.m. ET (7:23 p.m. PT), the moon might turn a shade of *deep red that frightened the ancients*
-- an eclipse that was ending just as the final out was made.
And in case you aren't scared yet....
The player who made the final out was made by Renteria, wearing jersey number #3. That was the same as Babe Ruth's number.
And then there is the classic photo of Schlinning's bloody sock, his "Red Sock."
It takes a bit more than magic to dispel a curse. It takes an act of God.
With affection to all New England.
--Mayor
Response from Mis-sour-i (pronounced "Misery")....
Posted by phantom007 on 30-Oct-2004 09:19:20 (#10669)
F#ck! Sh#t! Etc#.!
Obviously, Mayor, you bet on the 4-game RedSux Sweep-Teaser.
Feels about as good as when the N.E. Patriots beat the Rams in the Superbowl several years ago...an obviously Superior team beat by an obviously Inferior one.
Could be worse....I started out watching the 4th game of the World SWEEP in (of course) a bar....the guy sitting next to me was bragging about having tickets for Game #5....by about the 5th inning when I left, he was asking others "if he would get a refund!"
Curse??? Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure someone will), but did not a player named Babe Ruth play for the RedSux FOR ANOTHER YEAR before being traded to the SPANKIES?
Ph.7's Superbowl prediction: "Chiefs 38, Rams 37".
phantom007.
Plaza 2D...
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Oct-2004 12:33:18 (#10631)
...the number of tables has increased from 2 to 7. zg
My new home! *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 28-Oct-2004 13:14:35 (#10633)
Hooray! *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 29-Oct-2004 00:15:58 (#10647)
ZG: Is the pen still good? Two dealers on grave shift tried to insert the cut card by hand on me, instead of using the discard rack notch, during a heads-up grave shift session 3 weeks ago.
When I questioned them, they told me they had been "instructed" to do it that way. Fortunately, my floorman, oblivious to the instructions from "above," put things right, and made both dealers follow house procedure, to my relief.
Cheers,
Spamfarkel
Graveyard appears to be a little paranoid...
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Oct-2004 14:32:48 (#10654)
... but not the other shifts. The penetration is slightly reduced on the newer tables but still quite acceptable.
Obviously they conducted an experimant and found that the looser games make more money for the house! Hooray! zg
All tables full Friday afternoon except the desired $25 table
Posted by LVBear584 on 30-Oct-2004 01:18:59 (#10666)
The empty table stood out like a beacon waving to me. I haven't played double deck in years. I may have to re-learn double deck.
Graveyard
Posted by Goose on 31-Oct-2004 02:05:58 (#10690)
very paranoid, esp a rather tall blond male. black chips seem to send a shiver down his spine.
On a particular Sat. afternoon there were two empty $5 tables and the quarter table was vacant too.
How long do we all think this will last?
I saw 8 tables
Posted by Gibbs on 29-Oct-2004 08:02:42 (#10649)
It was a beautiful sight - almost as beautiful as the hot asian pit boss ;-)
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