Blackjack Message Archive from CardCounter.com

At one time, the website CardCounter.com held an active message forum with many contributors. When the previous site owner planned to shut down the site, he allowed us to archive the messages here at BlackjackInfo. They are formatted as they originally appeared, but no further comments on threads are permitted. If you want to discuss any of these topics, please do so at the BlackjackInfo Forums.

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Threads 1441 to 1470

Intro...
Posted by OnePitCritter on 12-Nov-2004 03:00:51 (#10833)

Hallo Mr. Mayor and everyone,

I am just your average enemy, an old Pit Critter (13+ years in Gaming)

I have enjoyed reading some of the posts here and thought I would give this community some of my random thoughts & favorite stories about advantage play.

I hope some of my personal observations will be helpful to this community.

" Why would I be helpful?" A legitiment question.

There may perhaps be no selfless acts? I enjoy my career. Without it I would have to get a real job to pay for the Ex-Wife's lipposuction!

I have been entertained by some of the posts/ideas pitched here. I have also been occasionaly dismayed. It is true in my humble opinion that I need you as much, if not more, than you need me. That being said, this is just a game to me. I got into this career field in the effort to avoid doing any real work!

Also Mind-Play, as an example, could obviously be the death of my part of the industry.

A little about me...

I work in a small Midwest Casino of no real consequence. I have worked in many different capacities of Gaming... Dealer, Floor, Pit, Management, even a stint in a Bingo Hall.

I do enjoy Advantage play, not to the extent of this forum. I do enjoy it non-the-less.

My posts may get a little long so...

I would enjoy any open discussion of my thoughts. If you view me as just a Crack-Pot... Welcome to the Internet! Please feel free to just ignore me.

I think I will try to Post a story each week.

Sincerly,

OnePitCritter

P.S. I am looking forward to the Mayor's new book.

P.P.S. Good God Mary Sue I sound Rediculously Arrowgant...Ah well...Post without thinking. Welcome to the Internet! ;O)

Welcome
Posted by Bubb Rubb on 12-Nov-2004 12:15:20 (#10837)

Hi, OnePitCritter, and welcome.

I am an average joe who is relatively new to card counting, just hoping to eke out a small edge over the house. I read the tales of some of the pro's on here and try to pick up hints to improve my play and also try and learn how to recognize other advantage plays. There are probably hundreds of people like me reading these and other forums, none of us sure whether we are good enough to get a long-term edge by counting. Sure, the simulations say we should, but playing on the computer and playing in real life are completely different.

So far I've been very successful, obviously due to positive fluctuation. But will I have the character to stick it out if I hit the other end of the bell curve? Or will I end up a disciple of John Patrick claiming that math doesn't work and looking for "the flaw"? (heaven forbid!)

You and other PC's are not my enemies. You've got a job to do and I recognize and respect that. I feel I have a responsibility to you and your colleagues to win as inconspicuously as possible, and never not too much at any one time. To make life pleasant for you and the dealers by smiling and laughing, telling jokes, getting along with the other players and, most importantly, never complaining when I lose. Occasionally I even split 10's with a negative count or make other "stupid" plays to drive away a ploppy who's annoying the dealer. I hope that in response the dealers and PC's will continue to let me play my game.

Once again, welcome to the board. I look forward to what you have to share with us.

Welcome PitCritter! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Nov-2004 13:20:34 (#10839)

Welcome!
Posted by SammyBoy on 12-Nov-2004 13:44:49 (#10840)

I'm looking forward to your stories as well as your perspective from the other side.

Welcome
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Nov-2004 09:54:32 (#10845)

We look forward to your contributions. You might like to read Cellini's materials here.

--Mayor

;O) Celinni's Corner
Posted by OnePitCritter on 13-Nov-2004 13:42:08 (#10846)

Thank You All for the Hallo's...

Cellini's Corner may be some of the most Hilarious stuff I have read on the net!

Not that they are not true! Right on the mark at some of the properties I know. I have not read all of them yet but I especially loved the Top tips for handling Floor People! ;O)

Telling the Floor some Horribly Bad Story about the feul milage in your 1977 LTD is an awesome tactic to keep them away.

If I could be so bold as to add a personal observation...

Has anyone ever met a nice person that you just can't stand to communicate with? People talk at a certain pace. If it is just a bit too slow or fast it will drive you insane!

I had a regular Player years ago, (Helga, May god rest her soul.) actual First Generation American. She would drive me to tears!

I was a Dealer then, I remember begging my Floor when she would come in to let me deal on any other table or game.

Begging.

Pleading.

Nashing of teeth.

I may have actually came down with an instant 24 hour flesh eating virus once and had to leave for home!

Helga was a player of substance, the widow of a local bank president. She was ready to play... No that is not right ...

She was ready to spend... Stll not right...

She would sit at a table with me for what seemed like an eternity and tell me stories about her Car, Kids, Grand-Kids, Bursitus, Collitus, Incesulitus, (Helga had all of the ...ituses)

It was not the stories that drove me insane. As a dealer I always knew the program. I was attached to my table until Judgement Day or until my Floor would send in sweet relief so I could go Smoke. Anyway I digress.

It was the pace of her speech.

It...
was...
just...
a...
little...
too..
slow...

I loved Helga by the way. She was a sweet lady with an amazing life.

I...
just...
could...
not...
handle...
the...
pace...
of...
her...
speech...

Try this with your signifigant other. Now buy them flowers or something for causing severe mental anguish to check my point.

Now picture this with the Floor who is too busy and can easily escape to the other end of the Pit. Unfortunately you will also have to torture your Dealer with the same speech patterns to cover. It is Okay, for a couple of small tokes they will not mind being collateral damage in this little game.

Wait a second! What did I just type? I don't remember Helga ever losing. We would talk about it on break over our Camels and Marlboros. Was she covering for Advantage Play? Perhaps I will now think of her as doing so.

"God Speed Dear."

But If I ever accidently make it inside the Pearly Gates and see her coming my way I am going to...

Sincerely,

OnePitCritter

"O' Cellini, Where Art Thou?" *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Nov-2004 16:47:18 (#10855)

Question for OPC
Posted by suicyco maniac on 13-Nov-2004 20:47:46 (#10848)

What would you say is the first thing that tips you off to most counters? SM

Right to the Heart of the matter... ;O)
Posted by OnePitCritter on 14-Nov-2004 05:22:03 (#10850)

Hallo Suicyo Maniac,

I just got off of a 13+ Hour Shift, & was curious all day if anyone read or responded to my sordid little tale. ;O)

You must win some kind of prize for being the first to get right to the crux of our new
"?Relationship?" ;O)

Suicyo Maniac asked:
(What would you say is the first thing that tips you off to most counters? SM)

I'm sorry but I will have to think on that a bit.

It is late and I need some rest...

My first thought is that it is a Combination of Multiple Questions! Is that actually English? "A Combination of Multiple Questions." Ah well, I was never an English Major.

What I mean to say is the first alarm is not always an individual item. That is not to say that there aren't some quick alarms.

At any rate I must try to get some sleep. It was a long day... The Pit Blackjack hold was over 50% last night, Causing my Staff & I to have a long challenging evening. I believe that is called Varience correct? We just call it a long evening of no fun. Cranky players (losing), Cranky Dealers (No Tokes), & I am just trying to keep my customer service up to par under these difficult conditions.

"No Madamn I cannot comp you the night in our Players Suite."

"Yes, Believe it or not I do know you are in for a small Fortune."

"Yes, $145 is a ton of money. You say you didn't win a hand?"

"No, I am sorry you cannot view the video tape."

"Your second cousin's sister in-laws nephew is our new State District Representative!"

"Yes, I will give you my Supervisors extention number. No, I will not call her at home now."

Flash to:

"Dealer 3 said what to the player on Table 6 on short-stop position?"

Just continue that Ad Nasium.

At any rate, You have my Word of Honor I will think on your Question and try to answer as quickly and accurately as I can.

Sincerely,

OnePitCritter

P.S. Who knew message boards could be so Therapudic! ;O) I think I will sleep like a (insert favorite term).

"I think I will sleep like a ..." surveillance tech? ;-) *NM*
Posted by Dog Hand on 14-Nov-2004 20:36:10 (#10859)

Barrick's Enlightened Approach...
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Nov-2004 11:14:04 (#10834)

... reflects upon two execs - Plaza casino manager, Chris Nichols has attempted to run enlightened games in the past, understanding that less shuffling means more profits and better rules means higher player acceptance/competiveness AND variance - he was stymied in the past by old man Gaughn. The new multi-property GM is Tom Kaminski who came from TI 2 years ago to manage the LVClub casino, hence the improved games there initially.

These guys are sharp nonetheless and will pick you off given the opportunity. zg

PS - And the Mayor's correspondance, of course! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Nov-2004 11:16:05 (#10835)

You too!
Posted by The Mayor on 12-Nov-2004 11:26:29 (#10836)

Please send your thoughts directly to Mr. Barrick:

Dave Barrick
4336 E Beck Ln
Phoenix , AZ 85032
Phone: 602-788-1931
Fax..: 602-788-0902
Email: dwb1946@aol.com

Thank him for understanding the importance of offering good games. (Don't mention advantage play, please!).

--Mayor

What was that, Max?
Posted by toddler on 13-Nov-2004 22:43:41 (#10849)

understanding that less shuffling means more profits and better rules means higher player acceptance/competiveness AND variance

If memory serves me correctly (which is always suspect on a Saturday evening), hasn't Max Rubin been saying this or something extremely similar for years? Perhaps someone *is* listening.

toddler

Right to the Heart of the Matter Part 2
Posted by OnePitCritter on 14-Nov-2004 13:46:13 (#10853)

Hallo and Good Morning Suicyco Maniac and everyone!

It is a Gorgeous Morning in Middle America! Coffee is Brewing, it is time to try to attack your Question.

Suicyco Maniac asked:
(What would you say is the first thing that tips you off to most counters? SM)

What I posted last night...

My first thought is that it is a Combination of Multiple Questions! Is that actually English? "A Combination of Multiple Questions." Ah well, I was never an English Major.

What I mean to say is the first alarm is not always an individual item. That is not to say that there aren't some quick alarms.

Now that I have caught up with the Sandman as well as Myself. ;O) A Combination of Multiple Questions Still does not sound like English! At any rate...

Cover your eyes Mr. Mayor for a moment. I think that from my end of the Pit catching counters is as much an Art as a Science.

A Loud Sigh comes from the Board. "This Guy is just another Nut-Job who doesn't even understand what Advantage Play is!"

Please give me a moment to explain everyone. I will try to avoid this being a Voodoo Post.

I do not mean to say that Counting is not specific and that there aren't specific items to this endeavor. We have some wonderful Extremely Anal people in the Surveillance Dept. who help me by accurately watching and quickly charting whatever I ask for. Their job is strictly Science.

The call comes down:

"Dealer 3 on Table 6 did not match his Toke at 11:47 chip for chip pursuant to Policy #34-B section 24 of page 36 in Blah...Blah..."

" Yes, Thank You, I did know. I have been waiting for a fill of Silver for 30 Minutes. She is trying to conserve to be able to keep the Game going."

"There is no policy to do that OnePitCritter I will have to write this in your Daily Log."

"Yes, I know, My Daily Log. Thank You."

Get the picture? Wonderful people, completely devoid of any passion and completely needed. Policy driven. And only Policy Driven.

My call up:

"I need a player rating... Pit 1-Table 6 -7th Position. (Don't say Anchor or Third base by the way they will be lost or give you info on the wrong player.) Tee Hee I have a funny story about that happening. Maybe Later.
15 minutes later they give me a wealth of info.

" But why do I make the call up?" You Nearly Scream. Okay, enough fun for me. If I could be so Bold...

Your Post is why Dear.

Your Question is why.

In a really (to me anyway) funny story about Helga with many of my favorite Plot twists including death, You got right to the Heart of the Matter. I watch for that. Not a single post about funny, stupid, Wow, OnePitCritter are you a CrackPot. ;O)

I work with some amazing people. Smart, Funny, Oh my God can they be Funny. I also have many different personalities of employees. It is bizarre to me that "most" card counters cannot see the fun in gaming? If we cannot, If the game cannot, help you have a "Good time or just as important a Bad time" something is up.

Business.

Business is what is up.

They say that something like 75% of people dislike their jobs. I think that is because it is just about money. You and I both got into the "Casino Business" to avoid any real work. At one time you were a Ploppy just enjoying the "Fun."

"So, proper Cover is the Key." You think correct? Close, but generally not exactly possible for "most counters." I wish I could cover all of this in one post but I am afraid it is not possible.

My hope here is to... I am not sure... Try to develop a rapport with a community that is...

I am sorry, work calls everyone. I hope it is a wonderful day for all.

Sincerely,

OnePitCritter

P.S. You missed the point of Helga. I caught her because her speech patterns were different with me than with my Dealers and the other players. Now do you see... Art not Science?

My question(s)...
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Nov-2004 16:03:02 (#10854)

Thanks for your great posts, OPC. The method you are describing goes under the heading "JDFR" (just doesn't feel right) -- which is the basic way security and survelliance should proceed. It is not ploppy voodoo applied to catching counters, it is the observation that the crowds usually behave in a set pattern, and anything outside the norm should be looked at more carefully.

There are a bunch of us that are beating the pants off of you in ways that you will never know (and we will never say here). We have been doing this for years. These are legal methods, and are being done right in front of you. It has been my experience that if it looks like counting, I get heat, but for these other methods, I get comps.

My question is, to what extent are you aware that this is going on, but don't know who to look for or how it is coming down? And, what more advanced methods have you come accross and dealt with? How do you look for those methods? Does your management just not believe these things happen, or does your management have too much ego to admit you are getting creamed sometimes?

There was a dealer that got very angry at me about half-a-year ago. He said "I don't know what you're doing or how you're doing it, but I don't like what's going on here." He came the closest.

Again, I am NOT talking about cheating.

Your writing is great, and your answers are right on target and fun to read. You are a very welcome guest and we look forward to what you have to share.

--Mayor

jdlr nt *NM*
Posted by gehrig on 14-Nov-2004 19:20:55 (#10856)

Wow!
Posted by OnePitCritter on 14-Nov-2004 20:06:10 (#10858)

Hallo again everyone,

Mr. Mayor writes:

(My question is, to what extent are you aware that this is going on, but don't know who to look for or how it is coming down? And, what more advanced methods have you come accross and dealt with? How do you look for those methods? Does your management just not believe these things happen, or does your management have too much ego to admit you are getting creamed sometimes? )

I am so pleased to find a place to discuss these topics.

I must be honest here. I am unprepared to cover these quickly and succintly. I was just going to write some of my favorite funny Casino stories. It really is just a game to me. Our relationship between Advantage players and Pit personale I mean.

Not that I am unwilling to try to be up to the task. I just think that I will need some time to process and formulate. I assure you I will try.

Thank you Mayor and everyone else for the challenge. I hope this will be fun as well as informative for both of us.

Sincerely Challenged, ;O)

OnePitCritter

Psychological Counselling Available at CC.com....
Posted by phantom007 on 15-Nov-2004 00:01:25 (#10860)

OPC....did you know that the Mayor is trained in Psychology, M.S. I believe, or is it pH.D.?

Anyhow, got a "BJB", i.e., Black-jack Boner, when I read your first post.

Have went "flaccid" reading the rest.

Several posters have asked simple and directed questions as regarding PC vs. AP's. Your response(s) have been both diversionary and self-centered.

YOU CERTAINLY COULD BE A VALUABLE ASSETT TO CC's!

The Mayor et.al. could help you with your problems!....providing said of course that same is given with understanding that advice is of a "general educational" nature, and not meant to be OPC-specific therapy (otherwise, major licensure/malpractice/etc. issues ensue). I often use CC.com to receive therapy, i.e., "Theraputic Writing", wherein I post my own life successes and failures, then sit back and watch 1/2 of all respondents not even read the Post before responding, 1/4th to offer advice/support, and the other 1/4th...TO

TURN WHAT I SAID SIDE-WAYS, and SHOVE IT UP MY A#S#S!

Anyhow, IMHO:

1. You HATE your job! You bust your Butt, rarely get thanked for same, but almost ALWAYS get SPANKED when things do not go right.

2. You LOVE your job! Friends, family, and Hell, even CC's respect your SUIT! You have POWER to GRANT Wishes...and the POWER to END same!

3. You have a LOVE/HATE relationship with CC's...CC's SCREW your EVIL employer (LOVE)...CC's SCREW YOU (HATE)...and either you are or are trying to become a CC...will you LOVE yourself...or HATE?

4. Helga?...Thanks for sharing. Obviously important to you. Did Helga Screw You?....It is apparent that Helga is a "Mother-Figure"...are you from Arkansas?
Revisit your relationship with your own Mother!

Otherwise, welcome to CC.com, i.e. "CRITTER COUNSELLING.com".

WE ARE HERE TO HELP!

phantom007.

correction
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Nov-2004 00:06:51 (#10861)

Although I think CritterCounseling.Com is great, you are going to have the honors. I don't have a degree in Psych (but my wife does).

Remember to blame it on his mother! 8-)

I too feel the tease of OPC's responses, but would rather be encouraging than harsh. After all, how many of his kind even get this far?

--Mayor

A thought? For The Mayor
Posted by OnePitCritter on 15-Nov-2004 11:31:35 (#10866)

Hallo Mayor,

I absolutely love it! "Remember to Blame it on His Mother." 8-)

Rolling on the floor, Smiling all the way.

On the other hand I do not want to upset the Community Apple cart as it were. Is it possible to move my posts to the Non-BJ Board? Do you think that would be helpful?

I hope my posts both entertain and create some thought in your members. But my fun could be misread as...Whatever. I am sure they will not be fun for all. Would that be a better Forum?

I do promise to try to be as honest as is possible from my position. Just like you said there are members that have been beating the pants off of us for years. With Ideas that they would never post on a public Message Board. It is the same in my side of the battle. Sometimes I will just be unable, or unwilling, to answer.

Truely Funny anyway. ;O)

Sincerely

OnePitCritter

This thread belongs here
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Nov-2004 11:45:31 (#10867)

Thanks for the idea to move this to nonBJ, but it is BJ -- very strongly so. If you want to talk about politics or weird modern physics, go to nonBJ, for anything that has even an outside chance of being meaningful to the advantage player, this is the place.

You are right that we want to take from you and not give back to you. There is no way we would tell you anything that would help you in your job, on the other hand, you could tell us quite a lot.

What's in it for you? It is the right thing to do. We are playing by the rules the casinos set in place, not breaking any laws, acting respectfully (for the most part), and are willing to not fight when you ask us to leave. How much nicer could we be? All we ask is that you give us a great game and leave us alone. Is that too much to ask?

Again, read Cellini's material. He is singular, a great man; but you may have elements of his perspective in yourself.

Looking forward to it...

--Mayor

player wins 80k
Posted by eyesfor21 on 15-Nov-2004 17:36:59 (#10870)

The guy started with dbl deck $800 buy in, a young punk who
got on a streak(no such thing as a streak well he was winning

almost every hand didn't even know basic-they the pit and the upstairs crew
were surrounding the poor guy like he was doing soemthing wrong.
The guy then moves to csm still heat still more wins then
moves to sf212 more wins more heat.. It was quite a sight.
I was going to lecture him on leaving but he was giving me hell
saying how I will never make large unless you bet big the whole thing,
never surrender blah blah etc.
well friends say he gave it all back the next day.
Its just sad that the pit was so worried that someone was taking
them when any normal person would know in seconds that the guy didn't
know a thing at all.

They thought he was cheating
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Nov-2004 22:46:32 (#10872)

Especially in a pitch game. They must have figured he was more than lucky and winning too fast to be just an advantage player.

Re: Phantoom007
Posted by OnePitCritter on 15-Nov-2004 11:01:36 (#10865)

Hallo Phantom007, Mr. Mayor, and everyone,

Phantom007 writes:

Anyhow, IMHO:
1. You HATE your job! You bust your Butt, rarely get thanked for same, but almost ALWAYS get SPANKED when things do not go right.

2. You LOVE your job! Friends, family, and Hell, even CC's respect your SUIT! You have POWER to GRANT Wishes...and the POWER to END same!

3. You have a LOVE/HATE relationship with CC's...CC's SCREW your EVIL employer (LOVE)...CC's SCREW YOU (HATE)...and either you are or are trying to become a CC...will you LOVE yourself...or HATE?

Oh My God! I am Laughing my assets off. ;O) I hope that was as tongue in cheek as my posts have been!

Let me try to answer your concerns one at a time.

1.) I thought I was very up front with my first post. I was going to write some of my favorite Funny to Me stories. I also reiterated that in my earlier response to the Mayor's Question(s) I do still hope there may be value? Maybe Not.

2.) Suicyco Maniac asked :

What tips you off to "most" card counters?

"Most" is what I felt was the key word. Maybe my two-part answer was too long and bizarre for some in this community. I thought my answer was right on the mark. Skip the story; Start at Business in part 2. As Mr. Mayor said JDFR (Just Doesn't Feel Right)

3.) I am sorry but I LOVE my job! I am a work-a-holic, bust my Butt, and if I may blow my own horn a moment, yet again, I am very good at it. Thanks is never as often as I like, but I am sure my staff doesn't get as much from me as they should. Also Sorry, I have not been SPANKED for any reason at work and things do go wrong sometimes.

4.) I do LOVE my job. I hope that my friends, family, employees, and Hell even CC's respect me not my clothing!

5.) I have a LOVE/HATE relationship with CC's. SCREWING MY EMPLOYER. Sorry no Evil Empire here. My Employer has always treated me with Honor & Respect. CC's SCREW ME? No, it is not my Money. Besides I love a challenge. At the very least it is nice to have some capable competition. Your community at large helps keep my job fun.;O)

6.) Helga, a real person. A real story. It was really fun.

7.) My Mother? Well, Dad did the disciplining growing up. I will ask them at lunch today about our relationship. ;O)

Sincerely LMAO,

OnePitCritter

Honor and Respect
Posted by Radar on 20-Nov-2004 11:11:26 (#10920)

"5.) I have a LOVE/HATE relationship with CC's. SCREWING MY EMPLOYER. Sorry no Evil Empire here. My Employer has always treated me with Honor & Respect. CC's SCREW ME? No, it is not my Money. Besides I love a challenge. At the very least it is nice to have some capable competition. Your community at large helps keep my job fun.;O)"

Perhaps your employer should treat CCs with respect and honor, as well. We play by YOUR rules, do not cheat, are not disruptive and generally, don't get greety. Oftentimes we lose...afterall, even the best players have negative flux.

In return we get "shuffled", "cheques play", stared down like we are a naked lady, and asked to leave because we happen to be knowledgeable and use our brains to play your game better than most.

On the other hand, if a ploppy don't know how to play, is loud and obnoxious or cussing out or throwing things at the dealer (as long as he's losing), or if they are wasted and throwing their money away, you will let them play for as long as they have a dollar left to put on the felt.

Maybe you get respect and honor from your employer, but it sure doesn't work that way for the player.

It is pure hypocracy, and even you should be able to understand that.

Mayor and the egotistics.
Posted by Tom on 15-Nov-2004 22:47:42 (#10873)

Just as casino critters may be on an ego trip,just as the AP may be on a ego trip and "in just"--why must thee, embrocate they, of our own illusions that are perpetuated out of an act of deception!?..and the commencing of suggestions of-ahem''(to whom it may concern)seeking the unordinary balance of gambling. Look that up in your Funk n' Wagnel OPC!

Sorry for the rambling,but if anybody decodes me message they may get the point.

Good night and good day,
Tom

OPC
Posted by SammyBoy on 15-Nov-2004 10:28:38 (#10863)

Your writing style and personality are very familiar. I hope you stick around.

Thanks SammyB. 8O) *NM*
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 22:49:50 (#11071)

OPC
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 16-Nov-2004 17:51:45 (#10875)

So, do you ever sit and play the game from the other side of the table? How much do you know about the game from our side? Do you count? If not, do you want to learn and do you want to play the game from the same side as us sometimes?

Jack & OPC
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 22:33:38 (#11070)

Posted By: Stealth Bomber

Sorry Stealth Bomber, 18 days late on a response. ;O)

Yes, I play often. At minimum once a week.

I know a lot from a Ploppy's standpoint, because I spent years as one. Sometimes when the variance and Jack Daniel's gets the better of me I am still one. I do not have the dicipline that The Mayor and many of the Pro's on this board have.

I do count. Basic HiLo with some excellent shuffle-tracking. At least I can shuffle-track alone. It is nearly impossible with Jack! But I do so enjoy time in the Casino with old Friends of my Father's! ;O)

I like HiLo because Jack and I can still play pretty well together.

I like the idea that the most basic system you can easily handle is the best for you. I realize HiLo is outdated but it has rarely if ever failed me alone. Not that I play that often alone. I like nice cocktails that bring me nice drinks.

Sincerely

OnePitCritter

Persistence In the Face of Uncertainty
Posted by SammyBoy on 15-Nov-2004 10:02:53 (#10862)

A Stock Trading friend sent this to me. Substitute Trader/Trading with Counter/Counting.

Persistence In the Face of Uncertainty
By Michael A. Cavanaugh

Trading is a rough business for many reasons. First, success is not
assured. Second, even when one attains success, it may be fleeting. The
odds are against you as a trader, and only a select few can conquer
seemingly insurmountable obstacles to achieve lasting success. That's where
psychology can play an important role. The proper psychological attitude
can help you achieve and maintain success.

There are many occupations that are hard to do. Imagine working as the
president of a large corporation or a government official in hard economic
times. Imagine trying to sell insurance when few people have enough money
to buy it. Not anyone can succeed under such extreme pressure, but people
do. What you need to decide is whether you want to persist in the face of
uncertainty or shrink from the challenge. In terms of making a profit, the
hard part isn't trading profitably, but staying profitable. Trading can be
tedious. You have to make trade after trade. Even when market conditions
are in your favor, it can be tedious if you have to trade day after day,
year after year. Even the most resilient trader is prone to burn out.

It is easy to persist when you believe that your efforts will be rewarded.
That's how people do hard things, like get through college. They believe
the hard work will pay off and that long-term success will be assured.
Trading is different, however. There comes a point when you discover that
success is not assured. You find out that you can make huge profits one
year, and almost nothing the next. The future isn't certain, and that can
make even the most astute trader feel uneasy. A trader may be prone to
"learned helplessness." When you experience a setback that seems
insurmountable, you may start to believe that there is no way to get out of
it. If you tried extremely hard to stay profitable and can't do it, you may
start to think, "What is the point? Why should I continue with this, if I
can't remain profitable?" It is natural to want to seek out a new
profession, but don't despair.

Recovering from setbacks is vital for long-term success. Enduring trading
success isn't guaranteed, but few things in this world are a certainty.
When all seems hopeless, don't give up. Search for solutions, and take
specific action. Remind yourself that it's not the objective "hopeless"
situation that causes one to give up, but the interpretation of the
situation. How you explain the cause of the dire situation accounts for how
you cope with it. If you think, "I've always been inept and this is just
another instance of how ineffectual I've always been," you will tend to
view the situation as hopeless and want to just give up. But if you think,
"this is merely a temporary setback and I'll be able to get past it," you
will search for solutions to change matters and overcome the dire situation.

Trading is a tough business in which one must often persist in the face of
defeat. Your thinking style dictates your persistence level. It's
unproductive to think pessimistically, and believe that all is hopeless.
Instead, view seemingly hopeless failures as a temporary setback from which
you can easily recover if you keep at it. By looking for specific aspects
of your trading that you can actually change, and believing you can change
them, you will face setbacks with optimism rather than despair and
helplessness.

Good article...
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Nov-2004 22:11:30 (#10871)

...describes what scientific counting is like. zg

ROR calculations
Posted by Sput on 16-Nov-2004 13:49:27 (#10874)

When people calculate Risk of Ruin are they assuming a reinvestment of winnings in the bank roll, or are they assuming the bank roll remains constant? For example I understand that if my BR is $20000 and my max bet is $200 I have an RoR of around 1%, is that with or without reinvestment of winnings?

Usually it's not adjusted
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 16-Nov-2004 22:05:19 (#10876)

Your RoR depends on a few things other than your max bet so I can't tell if that's correct. 100 times your max bet for the kinds of spread used in shoe games is close to a full-Kelly bankroll, and the risk of ruin for full-Kelly with no readjust is much higher, around 13%. To get it under 2% you need to go to half-Kelly, which is twice the bankroll requirement.

There is a quick and easy way to convert a full-Kelly to a helf-Kelly bankroll. Simply take your bankroll and bet it on a hand of craps. About 49% of the time you walk away properly capitalized for a blackjack career.

more general question...
Posted by Sput on 16-Nov-2004 22:09:34 (#10877)

A more general question is does RoR calculation involve spending winnings or reinvesting them?

Reinvesting
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Nov-2004 04:28:53 (#10878)

If you always spend all of your winnings, you will definitely eventually reach ruin. Sooner or later you will lose enough hands in a row to exhaust your bankroll. When you reinvest, your bankroll builds up to a point where ruin becomes less and less likely simply because of the amount of money you have. It accelerates at a rate faster than the probability of losing enough hands in a row, something like a rocket reaching escape velocity from earth. But ruin is still always there- even if you have a billion dollars playing a $5 game, it is possible to lose it all, just not likely in a million lifetimes.

One thing about ruin theory though is that it's absolute and the only parameters are the advantage of your game, the variance, and the amount of money you have at that time that you're calculating it. Let's say you have a half-Kelly bankroll and that gives you a RoR of 1.8%. Now let's say you lose half of it; your RoR at this point is around 13%, because you've already been halfway screwed and you're on the bad end of the bell curve, and you must forget all about how you used to have a half-Kelly bankroll. Sad and frustrating but real.

Awesome, thanks for your help *NM* *NM*
Posted by Sput on 17-Nov-2004 16:43:55 (#10879)

Advantage gamblers lose case against Control Board agents
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Nov-2004 17:48:41 (#10880)

Advantage gamblers lose case against Control Board agents

By SEAN WHALEY
REVIEW-JOURNAL CAPITAL BUREAU

CARSON CITY -- A pair of "advantage gamblers," who use dealer or casino mistakes to increase their odds of winning, lost an appeal Monday to the Supreme Court seeking the right to sue two Gaming Control Board agents for wrongful arrest.

The court, in a brief order, agreed with a lower court ruling that Michael Russo and James Grosjean could not sue the control board and two of its agents, Roderick O'Neal and Charles Pointon, for damages stemming from an incident four years ago at Caesars Palace.

The actions of the two agents "were not so sufficiently egregious as to strip them of the qualified immunity that they are entitled to under statute," the court said.

The two men sought to sue the board and its agents after their 2000 arrests following a win of about $18,000 playing a table game at Caesars Palace.

Russo was jailed for about 12 hours and Grosjean was jailed for four days.

Grosjean is a doctoral candidate in economics at the University of Chicago and author of "Beyond Counting," a "how-to" gambling manual on beating the odds in casinos.

The men, through their Las Vegas attorney Bob Nersesian, have also sued Park Place Entertainment Corp., now called Caesars Entertainment, and its Caesars Palace resort. That lawsuit is in progress.

Nersesian said he was "flabbergasted" by the ruling because the claim made against the agents was that they concocted evidence, such as card-bending, to justify the arrest of the two men.

Nersesian said he will seek a U.S. Supreme Court review on the federal issues raised in the case.

The case started on April 21, 2000, when Grosjean was handcuffed and detained by security guards at Caesars Palace for allegedly cheating. Grosjean was allegedly winning a card game due to a "sloppy" dealer and his own "hole carding," where a player tries to gain an advantage by catching glimpses of a blackjack dealer's unturned cards.

In a separate incident involving other gaming control board agents, Grosjean was detained for half an hour, searched and cuffed at the Imperial Palace in Las Vegas after walking through the resort but not gambling.

In a lawsuit in that case filed against the hotel, Grosjean recently won a $400,000 judgment after a jury trial.

A jury found that Grosjean's rights were violated by the casino when security guards at the Strip hotel-casino detained him and roughed him up.

end

which casino do you offer to play blackjack in las vegas
Posted by tammy on 17-Nov-2004 19:01:31 (#10881)

HI Im tammy How do you do?
I have no job and researching blackjack everyday for like 5years,
I want to play blackjack everyday but my country has no casino so I have to visit different country to play blackjack.
If I have a green card then I can play blackjack until I broke But now I only play blackjack for 6times a week trip in year.

next year on JAN I am planning to go to las vegas,
now I am thinking about which casino is better to play blackjack.
EL Cortez or Lady Luck which is single deck with H17 DOA noDAS pen is soso(-0.17),
imperial palace which is DD with H17 DOA DAS pen is very good(-0.40),
Or 5star hotel which is bellagio, ceasers palace,mirage ,stardust(this is 3star) has DD S17 DOA DAS pen is 55%-65%( normal) But min is 25 so I am not rich enough to play that.(-0.20)

north las vegas has a poker palace casino has a single deck H17 DOA noDAS pen is 100% and BJ is even money, house edge is very bat but pen is 100%

Last week I went to reno to play blackjack and I went to rail city casino and there are single deck H17 DOA noDAS no sur pen is very good like 80% and also they deal in face up .Very good isnt it?

So I ask everyone which casino do you like to play in las vegas?

where in Vegas
Posted by KennilworthKid on 18-Nov-2004 10:58:44 (#10884)

Tammy

If indeed you are a young woman, don't go to the El Cortez alone. It is a bad place...and don't go to the Western either, it's worse.

I guess you like single deck blackjack...and Reno/Sparks is best for that. So go there instead of than Vegas if you are coming a long way for Blackjack.

In Vegas, shoe games (6 - 8 decks) are good and in nice places.

Also, lots of okay places have double deck games. Study for shoe and double deck games.

Per the link at this site, the top 5 games in Vegas are currently:

1. Western--Single Deck (don't go--not safe)
2. Caesars--8 Deck (is on the Strip, very nice place)
3. Plaza--Double Deck (is Downtown on Fremont Street, good place)
4. Las Vegas Club--Double Deck (is Downtown on Fremont Street, good place)
5. Suncoast--Double Deck (is 10 miles northeast from Strip, is good place)

Good luck.

Where to Play
Posted by Sonny on 18-Nov-2004 11:20:15 (#10885)

> next year on JAN I am planning to go to las vegas,
> now I am thinking about which casino is better to play blackjack.
> EL Cortez or Lady Luck which is single deck with H17 DOA noDAS pen is soso
> (-0.17),

I've never found anything great at the Lady Luck. The El Cortez is playable as long as you can get away with it. Same with the Las Vegas Club. These are both good choices for low stakes players who are looking for $3-$5 minimums.

> imperial palace which is DD with H17 DOA DAS pen is very good(-0.40),
> Or 5star hotel which is bellagio, ceasers palace,mirage ,stardust(this is
> 3star) has DD S17 DOA DAS pen is 55%-65%( normal) But min is 25 so I am not
> rich enough to play that.(-0.20)

I think all of the DD games on the Strip are going to be $25 minimums. There may be a few $5 tables, but they usually have unacceptable penetration. I've also heard numerous complaints about the Strip going to 6:5 payouts instead of the usual 3:2.

> north las vegas has a poker palace casino has a single deck H17 DOA noDAS
> pen is 100% and BJ is even money, house edge is very bat but pen is 100%

I played there last year but didn't see that game. Any game that pays even money for BJs is probably not worth playing. The 100% penetration sounds a little sketchy to me as well.

> Last week I went to reno to play blackjack and I went to rail city casino
> and there are single deck H17 DOA noDAS no sur pen is very good like 80% and
> also they deal in face up .Very good isnt it?

That is excellent. I played Reno/Sparks a few years ago and loved it. the casinos are smaller and tend to get crowded faster, but the games are fun.

> So I ask everyone which casino do you like to play in las vegas?

If you are playing for low stakes you should stick to the downtown area.

-Sonny-

thanks for response to me
Posted by tammy on 18-Nov-2004 18:58:46 (#10887)

Thanks Sonny and KennilworthKid ,

Im not american so I dont know the meaning of not safe at downtown in las vegas.

Few years ago I went to ladydack by walk and noone was walking outside and I was very fear.

Last week I went to reno and san francisco,and I went to more than 20 casino.
1deck H17 D10@noDAS sp4 noRSA no sur
2deck H17 DOA noDAS sp4 noRSA no sur some casino is D10 on DD also

Cal-Neva Reno downtown
Carson Station Carson City
Circus-Circus Reno dpwntown
Diamond's at the Holiday Inn Reno
Eldorado Reno downtown this casino has MP21 as I know is here and flamingo in las vegas this BJ computer system is be on trial now.The system is computer knows how much you bet with a sensor and what a cards are left and If casino is disadvantage then computer tell dealer to shuffle.
Fitzgerald's Reno downtown
Golden Phoenix Reno downtown
Harrah's Reno downtown
Caesar's Tahoe Stateline
Harrah's Tahoe Stateline
Harvey's Tahoe Stateline
Hilton Reno
John Ascuaga's Nugget Sparks
Silver Legacy reno downtown

1deck H17 D9 noDAS sp4 noRSA

Sands Reno

1deck H17 DOA noDAS sp4 noRSA no sur

Peppermill Reno
Silver Club Sparks
Atlantis Reno
Boomtown vendi
Rail City Sparks
Siena Reno
fundango carson city

and also I went to cache casino in CA , river rock casino in north of SF in CA.
cache has a SD and DD but it was 6 to 5 BJ and all 6decks are H17 DOA DAS sp4 RSAto4 . river rock has all 6decks S17 DOA DAS sp4 RSAto4.

last month I went to oregon and washinton state but thare are bat house rule.
3month ago, I stayed at imperial palace in las vegas and I think some dealer was good pen on DD min10-max500 tables.

I am japanese and I live in japan , sometimes I go to near country to play blackjack and thare are so many no hole card around in japan.
tinian which is next to saipan ,its 8deck H17 DOS DAS no hole card this is bat, Australia has 6deck H17 D9 noDAS this is very bat!
some country is interesting like new Caledonia has no hole card 6deck S17 DOA DAS SP to unlimited include A 777 is automatic win even dealer has a BJ hit4times(if you have 6cards and less then 21)win automatic even dealer has a BJ,In Philippines also interesting no hole card 6deck S17 DOA DAS SPwith unlimited and 777 is 3to1 678 suited like straight flash 3to1 and also P21 player has a 21 and dealer has a BJ then push.and has early sur but excude A.
this house edge is like -0.01???

tammy

PS tammy is my nick name and I just wander is tammy is a womens name?
I am male and 32 years ago and I played blackjack since I was 24 years old,
I went to las vegas on honeymoon and I was very excited and I quit a jod and now I have no jod for 8 years,,,,, my dream is live in US and play blackjack every single days,,, lol

"Tammy"
Posted by Dog Hand on 18-Nov-2004 22:32:33 (#10889)

PS tammy is my nick name and I just wander is tammy is a womens name?

tammy,

In the U.S., "Tammy" is the nickname for "Tamara", which is indeed a woman's name. You might want to go by "Timmy" (nickname for "Timothy") or "Tommy" (nickname for "Thomas") to avoid such gender confusion... or then again, maybe not ;-)

Dog Hand

So Tammy, how well did you do?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 18-Nov-2004 23:37:17 (#10891)

I have personally played in every one of those casinos except the one north of San Francisco. I think you forgot to list Rail City in Sparks. I take it that you didn't give Western Village in Sparks a run for their money. Baldini's in not too bad either for a couple of quick snappers. ;-)

Baldini's now worthless --- only $50 table max *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 19-Nov-2004 00:48:37 (#10893)

Not worthless to me! =)
Posted by Sonny on 19-Nov-2004 11:37:49 (#10902)

It is still not as bad as the Auto/Truck plaza. I was amazed when my medium bet (only about $40) was denied. It is not very often that a red-chipper gets to brag about playing two hands at the table max!

Of course, that's stil not a good reason to play there.

-Sonny-

difficult to win
Posted by tammy on 19-Nov-2004 01:47:13 (#10895)

Hi how do you do.

This year I went to
FEB 2004 New Frontier Las Vegas 6night most of the time I played at Stardust.
I played for about 40 hours on DD min25 tables and I lost 2000 dollars.
JUNE 2004 I went to New Caledonia and played 50 hours and won 1000 dollars.
AUG 2004 Imperial Palace in LV 5 night only played about 20 hours betting 10-50 and I lost 100 dollars.
OCT 2004 1 nignt at chinook winds casino OR and also I went to spirit@mountain casino OR,2night stayed at the portland OR and I went to LA CENTER WA every night. total time I played about 20 hours and lost 200 dollars.
NOV 2004 reno most of the time I played at peppermill , fundango,rail city and siena and played about 40 hours and I won 100 dollars.

I can not win , how is everyone do for a tip? last week as you know I won 100 dollars but I think I am spending more than 100 dollars for a tip,so if I didnt give a tip to a dealer I won 200 dollars. I do not know the playing 40 hours and a tip 100 dollars is too much or too less .

About 6 years ago I know nothing about a blackjack and give a too much tip to a dealer and spend a money like a stupid ,once I stayed at a NYNY and lost 5000 dollars and I had a no money and my wife and I went to ATM to get some money to play. From now on, I study very hard but in Japan there is no detail about a blackjack because Japan has no blackjack.

My style is usually I played min 10 dollar table and bet between 10 to 50.
sometimes I played 25min and bet between 25 to 100.
But 100 dollar bet for me is too high amount of money that my leg starting to shake.

tammy

PS HI MR Mayor I looked your pic and I thought you are Steven Seagal.

That's a very large tip
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Nov-2004 11:27:22 (#10900)

Tipping is a subject of great debate here. Some people do not believe in tipping at all. Generally I tip about 5-10% of my EV. But I also expect to get something for it, so I tip the dealer and tell him to deal faster, which earns me several times my tip back. If I don't tip the dealer and tell him to deal faster, he will deal slower, and this would cost me more than the tip would. In the two places where I use a player's card the pit bosses consider your tipping when rating your comps, so I get it back there too. But you don't have to tip nearly that much. $1-$2 per blackjack will do it, at your level.

Here's why...
Posted by Sonny on 19-Nov-2004 11:28:17 (#10901)

> I do not know the playing 40 hours and a tip 100 dollars is too much or
> too less.

It depends on how much you expect to win after 40 hours of play. If you expect to earn $20 each hour then you would have won $800 after 40 hours of play. Now $100 is about 12.5% of your profit. It is the same as giving away 5 hours worth of profit. Why would you work for 5 hours without pay?

Most serious players will not tip at all. There is just nothing positive that you get in return for a tip. You are being polite to the dealer, but he cannot help you win any money (legally). Like you said, you would have won twice as much if you didn't tip.

> My style is usually I played min 10 dollar table and bet between 10 to 50.

A 1:5 bet spread is acceptable for single-deck games but you will not win very much in multi-deck games unless you are walking away from the negative counts. Here are the "textbook" bet spreads for various games:

Single-deck - 1:4 ($10 to $40)
Double-Deck - 1:8 ($5 to $40)
Six-deck - 1:12 ($5 to $60)

These are the minimum bet spreads you will need in order to maintain a decent win rate. Leaving during negative counts will also help. You might want to think about spreading more and tipping less. You will win more money and you will get to KEEP more of it.

> sometimes I played 25 min and bet between 25 to 100.
> But 100 dollar bet for me is too high amount of money that my leg
> starting to shake.

I know what you mean. I once had two $15 bets turn into $90 after splits and doubles. My legs were shaking then!

> PS HI MR Mayor I looked your pic and I thought you are Steven Seagal.

HAAAA! That's hilarious! It must be the cool shades...

-Sonny-

Stop tipping! *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 19-Nov-2004 12:42:29 (#10905)

Tsunami would be a cool name :-) *NM*
Posted by KennilworthKid on 19-Nov-2004 10:54:50 (#10899)

TV show plug
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Nov-2004 12:29:36 (#10886)

Watch "Beating Vegas" on Sunday, Dec 5, 9PM, National Geographic Channel. There is a piece about the MIT team on the show.

Yours truly got to play "the professor." It's my acting debut! Look out John Travolta.

--Mayor

Great Job
Posted by Ohio_Jones on 05-Dec-2004 21:24:06 (#11093)

Very convincing Eliot. Hope you don't leave the blackjack community for SAG. Though it pains me to watch that stuff with Griffin.

First thing I thought....
Posted by suicyco maniac on 18-Nov-2004 22:44:31 (#10890)

What is that picture of "Blackjack for blood" doing on the home page of CC.com....... No offense Eliot but first the confusion with Night Trains book and now almost the same cover as Bryce...just my 2 cents SM

My pick for pics was the LV Strip pic :-)
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 18-Nov-2004 23:45:55 (#10892)

I think it was the cover that could get the average Joe player salivating and wanting to learn more about BJ.

Yes, and no
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Nov-2004 09:22:04 (#10897)

Hi SM,

My childhood friend designed the cover. He has never seen a BJ book in his life, and this is what he came up with. I like it a lot -- the Jack is introspective, trying to determine his identity, thinking about who he is and what he is doing in life. The Jack is having an identity crisis. This is very different than BJ for Blood where the Jack is a murderer. Yes, at first glance, they are similar, but look deeper.

Also, seeing it close up, it has a lot of dignity as a cover, and will sit well on the shelf.

As for "Blackjack in the Zone" I have this from the rge21 web site:

NOTE: This book has gone out of print, but will be combined with
Blackjack Blueprint and reprinted under another title this fall.
We will carry the new printing when it is available.

Thanks very much for your feedback, I will discuss this with the publisher and cover artist and see if they think it is a problem.

--Mayor

book
Posted by eyesfor21 on 19-Nov-2004 10:37:13 (#10898)

ya may get sued with the cover it is very similar.
Mayor, put in the phd with your name anybody with one should use. worse case
the book may sell more not less!

Cover art!
Posted by hinoon on 19-Nov-2004 11:41:49 (#10903)

Looks great!

The yellow really pops, which will grab the attention of browsing ploppies from across the floor of Borders Books. The introspective Jack is also a perfect image for the blend of philosophy and gaming that you have in your essays.

Can't wait to get the real thing in hand.

I haven't read BJ for Blood, so I can't compare...but I think this is a great image.

I'm off for Thanksgiving. I wonder if they have casinos in Dublin.

Cheers,

HiNoon

My concerns
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Nov-2004 11:55:12 (#10904)

I think it looks great too... but I have a lot of concerns about being a target in the BJ community. I did not realize until yesterday that this cover looks like Bryce Carlson's as much as it does. Here is a link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0935926232/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-3848664-8786207#reader-link

I may have to make a last minute change ... damn this is hard.

--Mayor

Oooh, it does!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Nov-2004 17:36:37 (#10907)

Wow that is freaky! Probably something bouncing around in the subconscious of your artist. The bloody sword is a little too Freudian for me; makes me think of certain frightening sexual experiences of my youth. The recursiveness of the Jack looking at a playing card is much better.

Hey here's an idea! How about da Vinci's Vitruvian Man with a blackjack baize as his center? That would be cool. If you'd like, I'll cobble it together as I envision it and send it to you.

Still Wondering *LINK*
Posted by Ohio_Jones on 20-Nov-2004 00:00:59 (#10916)

Were you planning on keeping the same subtitle "Lessons In Winning At Blackjack And Life"? This is similar to Ian Andersens' "Burning The Tables In Las Vegas" subtitle "Keys To Success In Blackjack And In Life". One good thing about this is that people searching keywords will come up with both books.

I'd lose the PhD on the cover
Posted by BJ_Player2004 on 20-Nov-2004 14:43:10 (#10923)

One other thing about the subtitle. Does "Lessons" sound too much like work? These people (your target market) like things easy. Perhaps "Strategies" would be a better lead-off phrase.

you mean ireland Dublin?
Posted by tammy on 20-Nov-2004 04:01:03 (#10919)

hello.

I find
The Casino at Marino,
Fairview Park, off Malahide Road, Dublin 3
TEL: 01-8331618
FEB-MAR NOV-DEC open on SAT and SUN 1200-1600
APR OCT open on SAT and SUN 1200-1700
MAY open everyday 1000-1700
JUN-SET open everyday 1000-1800
entry fee is 2.75 Euro

Is this a casino too?
http://www.silksclub.ie/index1.htm
http://www.fitzwilliamcardclub.com/
http://www.mayfaircasinoclub.com/
http://www.merrioncasinoclub.com/

Oh my goodness , so many casinos ,lol

Usually in UK,you have to be a member and after 24 hours later you can go in to a casino. If you can , be a member at casinos website before you leave a home.

Ireland =/= UK
Posted by zarkifleeg on 20-Nov-2004 11:51:05 (#10921)

Erm, you might find yourself a trifle unpopular if you
visit Ireland and give the impression you think you're
in the UK.

Unsolicited comment on cover--
Posted by KennilworthKid on 19-Nov-2004 18:39:26 (#10910)

I am looking forward to buying and reading your book. I enjoyed the snippets of The Golden Gate you have posted.

Unsolicited advice is worth what you pay for it, but anyway here is mine.

The current picture on the cover is a classic of the Jack of Spades as per a set of Bicycle playing cards. But I too also thought of Blackjack for Blood when I first saw your proposed cover.

The title "The Blackjack Zone" seems to me to be a take off on "The Twilight Zone", the old eerie sci-fi drama series hosted by Rod Serling. If the book has some strange events in it, I would think the cover should fortell that. Thus, strangely odd colors, unusual fonts, or a surreal scene on might be appropriate for the cover. (Perhaps a Jack of Clubs/Spade done up in the style of Vincent Van Goghs final self-portrait, with its eeire green background and a glow emitting from his head? Or something with stars and a dark sky? Or a giant blackjack monolith--a la 2001 Space Oddessy--with players around the base of it?)

Anyway, I hope this helps, and I realize that you are ready to go to press with this so changing what you have may be difficult.

More about the criminals running Chumash *LINK*
Posted by LVBear584 on 19-Nov-2004 16:17:03 (#10906)

State officials insist that, despite the issue of sovereignty, state government agencies have the authority to protect the integrity of Indian gaming due to compacts signed between the governor and tribes that allow tribal casinos to operate.

surveillance taking shots of gals in Canada
Posted by eyesfor21 on 20-Nov-2004 12:09:52 (#10922)

Spy-cam in casino change room
But no charges filed for violating privacy

Sat Nov 20 2004
TOP Manitoba Lotteries Corporation officials have known for more than a year that three of their Club Regent casino surveillance technicians allegedly were involved in secretly recording a female performer while she was changing backstage. But the Crown corporation didn't alert police about the incidents, which date back four years. And no criminal charges were laid, even though one of the men confessed to making -- then destroying -- a tape showing at least one performer undressing.

Subsequently, the incident was treated as a labour relations issue and the three employees -- who worked in the surveillance monitoring room -- were "terminated" last spring, said MLC spokeswoman Susan Olynyk.

She said both the corporation's CEO and chairman were informed at that point and agreed with the decision.

She said there were "other issues" involved in the termination, but she couldn't specify what they were.

Olynyk added that when an MLC employee disclosed the existence of the change-room video in early 2003, "we were very, very disturbed by it."

"We took it very seriously," she said, and new procedures have been put in place to prevent another incident.
"Our surveillance equipment is to be used for the protection of our guests, the protection of our customers, our employees and our assets and, of course, to protect game integrity in all of our games."

The case -- which had been covered in the cloak of confidentiality that typifies human-resources issues -- only came to light now because of an anonymous letter about the incident that arrived at the Free Press this week.

Olynik said the decision not to proceed criminally was made because investigators couldn't locate the videotape.

But although MLC investigators reportedly scoured casino surveillance tapes for evidence, the residence of the man who confessed to making a spy-cam-style videotape was never searched.

Only police can seek and execute a search warrant in such circumstances. Nevertheless, MLC investigators kept the case to themselves.

"Due to the lack of evidence of criminal activity, it was deemed not appropriate to go to the police," Olynik said.
There is no legal onus on MLC to call police in -- or even report the incident -- but deputy attorney general Rob Finlayson said yesterday that would be the normal course of events.

"If you think something is not right, you report it to the police," he said, "and you let the police do their job."

Scott Smith, the minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation, ordered a full report of the case after he heard about it for the first time yesterday.

"I'm certainly asking for a lot more detail and what action was taken, or not taken, and why," Smith said.

MLC security chief Gerry Boose said yesterday his team of experienced retired police officers did a "thorough" investigation but weren't able to identify the victim or victims.

But in the letter that was dropped off at the Free Press by someone who called himself "a former MLC employee," the victim was given a name.

The "talented, good-looking" young woman that the letter says was at the centre of the incident would have been just 19 at the time that the unsupervised monitoring-room employees taped her changing costumes between acts.

She appeared with an ensemble of singers three times at Club Regent mainstage in 2000, the same year Boose says MLC investigators believe the tape was made.

The temporary change area is described as a screened area, about two metres square, that's open at the top to surveillance cameras that were supposed to be turned off during costume changes, the letter says.
"She goes into the screen several times to change," the anonymous informant writes, "but she is observed by the Club Regent surveillance crew in the monitoring room and photographed and recorded by techs... "

Here the writer names two men.

The following night, the letter continues, the screened changing room is "adjusted" by one of those involved "so they have a better frontal view."

Later, according to the writer, those involved "show their handiwork" to a pair of female casino co-workers.

The letter contains the names of both.

"One week later at a private party they show the video to guests."

While MLC investigators believe the video was destroyed, the letter-writer claims "copies have been seen just recently."

The anonymous informant doesn't say in the letter whether he has actually viewed the tape.

Olynik said she couldn't verify the accuracy of the information contained in the letter.
On Thursday night, the Free Press contacted one of those named in the letter as having been involved in the incident.

He confirmed that he had worked for MLC, but denied being terminated or having any involvement in the videotaping incident.

He then cut short the interview.

The letter-writer was obviously angry about how MLC handled the incident.

He suspected the young woman was never told she had been filmed, and he speculated that others may have been caught on tape.

He named names of those within MLC who knew about the case and who were involved in the investigation.

He identified a person who he said reported the incident.

He offered telephone numbers -- including cellphone numbers -- where MLC officials could be contacted.

"AND," in large typed letters he demanded to know, "WHY NO CRIMINAL CHARGES LAID?"
The MLC spy-cam episode has echoes of a case that happened a year before the casino videotaping incident is alleged to have occurred.

In early 1999, a 56-year-old Winnipeg man was found guilty of mischief for hiding a camera in the women's washroom of his family restaurant.

He was fined $3,000 and placed on three years probation, and ordered to take counselling and perform 200 hours of community work.

The maximum penalty could have been six months in jail.

At that time, Judge Bruce Miller called the videotaping despicable and said any right-thinking person would be outraged by the gross invasion of privacy the victims endured.

But there was something else that was gnawing at the anonymous letter-writer.

He also wanted to know who, specifically, was responsible for not taking the criminal-charge route.

Boose, MLC's vice-president of corporate security and a veteran of 30 years with the Ontario Provincial Police, said yesterday, "We met and consulted extensively internally. We had our management team along with HR (human resources). We had very, very seasoned investigators involved in this and consulted our legal counsel and concluded it was appropriate to deal with it as a labour relations matter."

The veteran police officer argued that someone confessing to what could be judged a crime isn't enough evidence to call in the police.
"You realize," he added, "the police have to get a search warrant. But the police have to have sufficient evidence to do so."

Asked about the confession, Boose said:

"There was a statement made that there was a tape produced and the tape was destroyed. So, therefore, there would be nothing to search for. I can assure you within our own premises we made a very rigourous search of all tapes and found no evidence that this tape existed."

David Deutscher, a law professor at the University of Manitoba, had a different view.

He said if police had been called in, "there's a reasonable possibility" that a warrant could have been obtained to search the home of the man who admitted making the tape.

Deutscher also said this of MLC's decision to keep it an internal labour relations issue: "I think realistically -- if you're looking at it -- they made a decision not to make this issue public. For whatever reasons."

To some degree, the law professor added, MLC is publicly accountable for that decision.

"And ought to be."

gordon.sinclair@freepress.mb.ca

"You've Got Heat" by Barfarkel now for sale
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Nov-2004 17:43:56 (#10909)

Stanford Wong's comments:

When historians in the distant future want to know what advantage play was like circa 2000, they will start with a carful study of Barfarkel's's You've Got Heat - the Las Vegas Card Counting Adventures of LV Pro. This book is nonfiction; Barfarkel describes real people, real places, and real incidents with amazing attention to detail. There is more to being a card counter than just winning money from casinos; Barfarkel shows that card counters have fu too. Before you take on the casinos with your own money, read this book to get an appreciation for the ups and downs your bankroll will experience."

The book is for sale through our online store.

--Mayor

Just received copy #001.
Posted by Titaniumman on 22-Nov-2004 16:44:59 (#10933)

Courtesy of Barfy and Al Rogers.

It's got a nice personal note handwritten by Barf.

The cover art has a lot of detail that you can't see in the website ad. I can't wait to read it from cover to cover.

Barf, thanks for including me in the acknowledgements, along with my cameo appearances in the adventures. I hope you've received the signed, framed first dollar bill earned from your book by now. Note that the mat background is 21 table green baize.

The book is well printed, and I'm sure that it's going to be a joy to read for anyone who enjoys the adventures of advantage casino play and our community's culture and friendships.

-T-

Book # 001 *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 24-Nov-2004 23:45:37 (#10959)

It's got a nice personal note handwritten by Barf.

Glad to do it. When Al Rogers at Pi Yee Press called me while I was in Vegas last week to tell me that the first shipment of 30 books had arrived, I traveled to the office the following day to see the completed book for the very first time. Al wasn't in the office, but Chris was, and the first thing I asked about is when the first book would be sent out to Titaniumman. Chris replied that as soon as I sign it, he'll send it, so I signed my very first sold book. I want to tell you that it was kinda thrilling to finally hold my completed book in my hot little hands :-)

The cover art has a lot of detail that you can't see in the website ad. I can't wait to read it from cover to cover.

Thanks. We must have gone through 26 drafts of that cover art before graphic artist Ben Jordan finally drew up what I had been seeing in my mind's eye. The hardest part was getting right the expression on the face of the seated player, but I think we finally did it.

Hey, you earned the right to be in the stories by hanging with me that morning on the North Strip, after our consultation with Stumpy at that lounge gathering. Eliot is also included in a chapter as is Zengrifter of course, although I refer to him throughout as The Grifter. And yes, I received the framed dollar bill with your signature, which arrived sometime while I was on my last Vegas trip. Thanks for the nice sentiment you wrote. That last Vegas trip concluded Sunday with a grueling 12 hour drive from LV back to LA in a sudden snowstorm, when they temporarily closed parts of Interstate 15.

The book is well printed, and I'm sure that it's going to be a joy to read for anyone who enjoys the adventures of advantage casino play and our community's culture and friendships.

Thanks again. I know you'll enjoy the book, and I hope a lot of you guys and gals on this site buy it as well. We've tried to make it simultaneously entertaining as well as informative. You can compare the building of my BJ bankroll with your own experiences in this regard, and chart your evolution as an AP with my own.

Cheers,

Barfarkel

These books are *not* autographed.
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Nov-2004 13:37:02 (#10956)

There was a thread here stating that the books we sold would be autographed. It turns out that this is not the case, our information was incorrect.

We apologize for any incovenience this may have caused.

--Mayor

Barfarkel tols me that he will...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Nov-2004 19:43:56 (#10958)

...coordinate the autographing, at you request. drop him a line to discuss logistics. zg

About signing the books *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 24-Nov-2004 23:57:26 (#10960)

Since the books are warehoused in Vegas, and I live in L.A., there's a way I can still sign your book.

1) You can email me at Barfarkel@aol.com with your address and the handle or name you'd like me to use, and I'll sign a white stick-on label that I'll mail to you and you can peel off the backing and insert it inside on page i, above the "You've Got Heat" large font title.

Cheers,

Barfarkel

Two Unrelated Questions
Posted by CanKen on 20-Nov-2004 20:13:20 (#10924)

1) An unusual situation, at least for me. I'm sitting next to a good, BS, non-counting player. He's betting quite a bit more than I am but not doing too well. On this hand he gets A,7 vs 4, but hasn't enough money to double, so he asks me if I want the double-down action. The count is quite good, and I happily accept and match his bet. We win the hand and I thank him for the opportunity.
But thinking about it after, I wonder, since his bet was about twice my, (correct for me), bet that round, maybe I should have doubled for less, just matching my own bet size, not his? Comments?

2) If only one spot is available, I spread 1-14, but if two spots are open I spread 1x1-2x10. What one spot spread is this equivalent to? I have been told that it's not equivalent to 1-20.

some answers
Posted by gorilla player on 20-Nov-2004 23:06:15 (#10925)

Others can probably answer better, but this will get you to thinking.

1. Your bet size is probably tailored to your bankroll and acceptable ROR? Obviously if you matched his larger bet for the DD play, you just bet more than normal. And increased your ROR somewhat (probably not a lot unless his bet was _way_ bigger than yours. IE even with a good count, you don't win all double downs...

2. 2x10 is definitely not the same as 1-20. For a guess, I would say it is more like 1-16, but someone here probably knows exactly how to calculate this. I'm just a computer guy. :)

Re: Answers
Posted by CanKen on 21-Nov-2004 10:12:28 (#10927)

Right - I set my bets at about 2/3 Kelly, which makes my max bet about 1% of BR.
This gives a pretty conservative ROR, so, as you say, the play in question was an overbet, but nothing to worry about.

2. 2x10 is definitely not the same as 1-20. For a guess, I would say it is more like 1-16, but someone here probably knows exactly how to calculate this. I'm just a computer guy. :)

If anyone can supply the math to calculate this I would appreciate it.

How I calculate it
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Nov-2004 00:15:07 (#10926)

The proper bet for a situation is related to your advantage and your standard deviation. Now for certain DD hands your advantage is very high, so proportianally the appropriate maximum bet is very high. For DD hands the average advantage is somewhere around 15-20%. Let's say I had an opportunity to DD on someone's 11 against a dealer 6. I'd feel very comfortable betting 10% of my bankroll in that situation. A7 vs. 4 is not quite as good, but still your advantage is quite a bit higher than it normally would be just based on the count. So I think you did the right thing.

Spreading to multiple hands definitely decreases your variance to where you can increase your total bet with the same risk. It's a very profitable thing to do. This probably isn't totally accurate, but I multiply the bet I would use on 1 hand by the square root of 2 or 3 hands when playing multiple hands. E.g., if the bet would be $100 on 1 hand, I'd split $140 among 2 hands or $170 across 3 hands.

Thanks for the input
Posted by CanKen on 21-Nov-2004 10:33:53 (#10928)

Makes sense. If you knew ahead of time that you were going to get a good DD on a hand, you could put out a bigger than normal bet.

I understand what you are saying. For two hands, I use 75% of the one hand bet on each, (or a little less), which amounts to about the same as what you said. I've never used three spots.
However, this isn't quite what I was asking. What I'd like to know is what single hand spread would be equivalent to a 1x1 to 2x10 spread. Apparently it's not the same as 1-20?

Equivalent to 2x10...
Posted by Dog Hand on 21-Nov-2004 20:29:02 (#10930)

CanKen,

From your post:

E.g., if the bet would be $100 on 1 hand, I'd split $140 among 2 hands or $170 across 3 hands.

So you're spreading a total of 20 over two hands. According to the above, that's equivalent to betting
(20)*($100/$140) = 14.28571... on one hand. Round it off and say that 1x1 to 2x10 is roughly equivalent to one hand with a 1-14 spread.

Dog Hand

new cover,but title
Posted by eyesfor21 on 21-Nov-2004 18:35:51 (#10929)

looks great but Mayor the name is almost the same as-perhaps a different name,then its a go.

Blackjack in the Zone: Revised and Expanded Second Edition
by Rick "Night Train" Blaine
RGE 2002, $24.95, 117 Pages
[Purchase this book]

From RGE's site --
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Nov-2004 21:23:36 (#10931)

As for "Blackjack in the Zone" I have this from the rge21 web site:

NOTE: This book has gone out of print, but will be combined with
Blackjack Blueprint and reprinted under another title this fall.
We will carry the new printing when it is available.

Good cover...and clever of you
Posted by KennilworthKid on 22-Nov-2004 18:17:18 (#10934)

Good cover...and clever of you to build up a buzz on your book as well as get focus group feedback ;-).

I took a look at the contents page on the book's website. The section titles made me think...is Blackjack, and for that matter mathematics, an art or a science? I believe most colleges issue a bachelor of arts for mathematics? Is that right? As Blackjack is a game based on mathematical probabilities, the section titles using the work Art is appropriate.

Still though I would think that the card counting casino Blackjack experience has elements that are science (counting, betting and play variations) and others that are an art (one's act at the table, interactions with dealers, pit bosses and fellow players).

Whatever, I am looking forward to your book.

No conflict
Posted by KevinBlackwood on 22-Nov-2004 13:19:23 (#10932)

Rick Blaine's new book will be released through Huntington Press and Rick said zone would not be in the title this time.

its still best to be original *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 22-Nov-2004 19:52:13 (#10935)

There's nothing new under the sun...
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Nov-2004 20:08:18 (#10936)

Certainly originality is great, but that is not as easy as it sounds.

For example, Kevin's new book will be "Play Blackjack Like the Pros" which sounds a bit like "Professional Blackjack" and/or "Playing Blackjack as a Business." I don't see any problem with his title, with using key words in a different sense or similar ideas in the title to previous titles. Indeed, you cannot copyright a title precisely because of this problem.

What about the title "Bringing down the house?" That's been used just a few thousand times.

So, in other words (as my wife says), build a bridge and get over it.

--Mayor

Speaking of bridge...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-Nov-2004 20:45:21 (#10937)

Bridge books have a similar problem. Chess too. Anybody who's buying these books already knows the bulk of what's in it. They're mostly looking for new ideas and the chance of finding one or two in the book is worth the risk of the price.

I like really advanced games books. You can write an advanced chess book about a particular opening and its defenses that will appeal to a Master, but a casual player will also recognize the moves and be able to apply them. It's different though with BJ because of the economy of scale. A black chip and a red chip player have very different priorities at the table.

Reminds me of old times...
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Nov-2004 21:53:12 (#10939)

I used to have a huge collection of chess and bridge books. I would order these thin expositions on different variations of openings and spend countless hours reading and memorizing variations. The slav, the Pelican, the schenveningen ... gad!

There there's bridge. I remember reading Root and Pavlicek's "Modern Bridge Coventions" for four hours straight when my friend was in the emergency room. The number of hours I spent playing online (at OKBridge) in 1992 and 1993 was like... I don't know... 6 hours a day for a year. Yellow Card. Precision. 2/1. Conventions. That was a whole lot of information but not much knowledge.

The amount of memorization required to become an expert at chess or bridge absolutely dwarfs the workload to become an advantage gambler, yet there are far more people who are chess experts and bridge masters than there are people who can win at blackjack. Go figure. I guess people don't like money.

--Mayor

The difference between these games
Posted by Sohrab on 23-Nov-2004 16:30:35 (#10942)

and AP gambling is

Bridge and chess experts seem smart. Blackjack experts seem like bad people, gamblers! We have to keep telling people card counting is legal? Because it feels like it is not legal.

Casinos confused on card counters *LINK*
Posted by zengrifter on 23-Nov-2004 22:38:04 (#10943)

November 22, 2004

Casino workers frequently confused on card counters

By Liz Benston
<benston@lasvegassun.com>
LAS VEGAS SUN

Jimmy Pine is an animated, stocky former singer with a vague resemblance to Tom Jones and a propensity to gamble.

But the Rhode Island resident is not welcome in many Las Vegas casinos, where he goes by the nickname "Young Jimmy Dime" and is tracked by surveillance and told to leave if he tries to sit down at a blackjack game.

But last week was a rare moment at the Golden Nugget, which rolled out the red carpet for Pine and about 40 other "advantage players" who participated in the newly crowned second season of the "World Series of Blackjack."

The players included Kevin Blackwood, the buttoned-up author of "The Counter," Joe Pane, a retired Brooklyn cop who is banned by more than 30 casinos in Las Vegas and "Hollywood Dave" Stann, a 25-year-old actor who dresses like a punk rocker and talks a blue streak to distract his competition. None are welcome at local blackjack tables but are rising stars on cable television.

... continued at LINK below -

Buttoned-up
Posted by KevinBlackwood on 24-Nov-2004 11:07:45 (#10953)

Interesting article, but it still shows some of the common misconceptions about who the winning players really are. Plus I'm still chuckling over being described as buttoned-up. Maybe I need to change my wardrobe.

Question for Mr. Blackwood
Posted by Virgin Counter on 01-Dec-2004 23:09:39 (#11037)

At what level of play are the casinos becoming paranoid about counting? If I am playing a $5 6D shoe with a 10x spread using KO, would this even merit attention by the house? Does a lower limit player such as me even have to worry? What are some strategies to use to avoid detection even at the low limit tables?

Not Mr Blackwood but
Posted by Victoria on 03-Dec-2004 12:45:31 (#11077)

Your question can not be simply answered because every place is different.
I can spread from $25-$300 in a place like the MGM, tell them I have no rewards card because they do not comp little betters like me hardly, and stay under their radar on relatively long sessions.
The same spread next door at the Tropicana can be used for a short session but without a card you would get a ton of attention, so I use one.
At a Coast Casino I would be escorted out the door in a short period of time.
The same spread at the "Big W" would last about 3 seconds and I would probably be mugged on my way out.
Know your opponent and incorporate a strategy, including a spread, that fits their profile. A $5-$50 spread will be easily tolerated in many high and middle end places (if you can find $5 tables) but in the lower end places once you are betting green you are now a high roller (that's red for the Western) and expect careful evaluation of your play.
Victoria

Taking a hit...
Posted by zengrifter on 23-Nov-2004 22:43:15 (#10944)

Taking a hit: New blackjack odds further tilt advantage toward the house
By Jeff Haney
<haney@lasvegassun.com>
LAS VEGAS SUN

Some oddball blackjack-like games in the Las Vegas area:

Super Fun 21: Blackjacks pay even money in this single-deck game, but there are also all kinds of crazy rules that benefit the player. Generally considered a carnival game rather than a form of mutant blackjack. (Note: Many gamblers use the term "carnival game" to describe casino table games that are unworthy of serious consideration or just plain goofy.)

Spanish 21: All of the 10s are removed from the deck, and there are lots of other weird rules as well. A carnival game that's unpopular with the public, for good reason.

Dealt-to-the-bottom:

Poker Palace in North Las Vegas offers a gimmicky single-deck game in which blackjacks pay even money, but the deck is dealt out all the way to the last card. With a paltry $50 maximum bet and a large house advantage, this game is considered a mere curiosity piece.

-- By Jeff Haney

Source material: Current Blackjack News (bj21.com)

Mario Puzo once compared the house's edge in a casino game to a sharp sword.

In modern-day Las Vegas, that sword has grown considerably sharper.

Many casinos now offer blackjack games in which blackjacks pay off at odds of 6-5 rather than the traditional 3-2 that is, $6 for a $5 bet rather than $7.50 for a $5 bet.

It might not seem like a significant issue to many players, who tend to think, "Hey, I got a blackjack; I'm getting paid anyway."

But that minor adjustment in the odds can make a major dent in a player's bankroll.

Take, for example, a blackjack player who uses proper "basic strategy" meaning he knows when to hit, stand, double down and split. Let's say he bets $10 a hand and plays 100 hands per hour.

At a decent six-deck blackjack game dealt from a shoe such as those at the Palms, the MGM Grand and elsewhere he would lose an average of $2.60 in that hour, according to computer analyses.

At a good single-deck blackjack game such as those at the Las Vegas Club and elsewhere he would lose an average of $1.80 in that hour.

At a game that pays 6-5 for blackjacks, however, our hero can expect to lose more than $14 an hour.

In other words, he will lose his money at least five times more quickly at a 6-5 game than at a shoe game, and eight times more quickly than at an old-fashioned single-deck game.

Fools die, indeed.

"This is incredibly stupid," said UNLV professor Bill Thompson, who studies gaming issues. "Everybody knows blackjacks pay 3-2. Unless they're giving out free bottles of whiskey to everyone who sits down at the table, I don't know why anybody would play this game."

Thompson, tongue in cheek, suggested 6-5 blackjack rode into Las Vegas on the same wave as topless swimming pools and sexy pirate shows on the Strip.

"Maybe the casinos think that everyone coming to Las Vegas is thinking below the belt instead of with their brains," Thompson said.

Other gambling experts say the change in odds is so extreme that the 6-5 game shouldn't even be called blackjack; that some casinos have been misleading in the way they promote the game; and that if the 6-5 game continues to proliferate, it could cause tourists to view Las Vegas casinos as unnecessarily greedy.

They also place some blame on the players, though, for failing to do at least a little bit of homework before approaching the green baize: If you play a 6-5 game and lose your money, well, to paraphrase gamblin' man Jimmy Buffett, it's your own damn fault.

Bad 'dream'

According to John Scarne's classic reference book, "New Complete Guide to Gambling," blackjacks have paid off at odds of 3-2 since 1912, when the American form of blackjack became popular in the betting parlors of Evansville, Ind.

Any game with substandard odds should not be called blackjack and should be avoided, says Don Schlesinger, author of "Blackjack Attack: Playing the Pros' Way."

"Everyone should avoid the (6-5) game because, quite simply, it isn't blackjack anymore," said Schlesinger, interviewed via telephone. "Naturals need to pay 3-2 for the average player to have a fair shot at winning money at the game."

There are 159 blackjack tables with the 6-5 odds at 24 casinos in the Las Vegas area, and the game is spreading quickly, according to the monthly tip sheet Current Blackjack News.

Al Rogers, manager of the website bj21.com and a semi-retired professional gambler, tried to persuade state officials to prohibit casinos from calling the 6-5 game "blackjack."

"People are being scammed, and I don't like to see them being ripped off," Rogers said in an interview at his office near Decatur Boulevard and Flamingo Road. "It's like the casinos are saying, 'If you're not a complete sucker, you can't play.' "

Rogers stated his case in an impassioned three-page letter to the Gaming Control Board and the Gaming Commission on March 28.

"If this game is allowed to continue, the Commission and/or the Board should require the casinos to post large, prominent signs reading 'Short Pay Table,' " Rogers wrote.

Rogers' plea was rejected.

"It falls within the guidelines" of acceptable games, said Keith Copher, the Gaming Control Board's chief of enforcement. "People are not happy about it; they'd rather have the higher 3-2 payout. But the 6-5 game does fall within the guidelines."

Some of the promotional campaigns linked to 6-5 blackjack have also drawn fire -- and ridicule -- from gamblers.

For instance, an advertisement on the electronic sign at Bally's on the Strip reads: "Now at Bally's and Paris ... By Popular Demand ... Single Deck Blackjack."

The promo neglects to inform the gaming public that it's 6-5 blackjack, the inferior game.

"I find it misleading," said Michael Shackleford, a Las Vegas-based gaming consultant. "I seriously doubt that many people are demanding a game like this."

Norm Wattenberger, a blackjack expert and creator of the "Casino Verite" computer software, cracked: "Soon we'll see, 'For extra excitement, both dealer cards are hidden!' "

Officials with Park Place Entertainment, the parent company of Bally's and Paris, did not respond to a request for comment for this story.

Also, in a recent promotional letter, Harrah's informed lucky gamblers that "every blackjack player's dream has come true ... yep, single deck games."

The letter went on to describe a game at The Rio in which blackjacks pay not 3-2, not 6-5, but even money. This game has the worst odds of any blackjack game currently being dealt anywhere in the world.

"Imagine a company so nefarious that it would purposely lie to players," Schlesinger said. "Harrah's should be ashamed of itself."

Officials with Harrah's Entertainment Inc., parent company of Harrah's and The Rio, did not respond to a request for comment for this story. Officials with Station Casinos, MGM MIRAGE and Mandalay Resort Group also did not respond to requests for comment on 6-5 blackjack.

Stanford Wong, author of the seminal "Professional Blackjack," said that while casino management has every right to offer 6-5 blackjack, the game should be portrayed accurately in promotional material.

"There have been instances of 6-5 not being presented honestly," Wong said. "The first casino ad I saw for 6-5 called it a 'whopping' 6-5, as if 6-5 were bigger than 3-2. Yes, 6 is bigger than 3, but 6-5 is not bigger than 3-2."

Anthony Curtis, publisher of the Las Vegas Advisor newsletter, took the side of the casinos' marketing departments.

Well, sort of.

"Things like demand and dreams coming true, that stuff can't be quantified," Curtis said. "It's hype. Casinos are allowed to hype their product.

"But, if they want to market it like that, they have to realize they're fair game for a guy like me who's going to call them on it and tell them they're full of (malarkey)."

Myth-information

Using basic strategy at the blackjack table does not erase the house's advantage, but it does afford the player a good run for his money. Which is why blackjack, rather than Casino War or the Big Six wheel, is by far the most popular table game in Nevada.

A second reason for blackjack's popularity is the perception that it's a game of skill, not luck. From the publication of Dr. Ed Thorp's "Beat the Dealer" in 1962 to the Caesars Palace scene in "Rain Man" to last year's "Bringing Down the House," a book that chronicled the adventures of a high-level, card-counting team, books and movies have promoted the mythology that savvy gamblers can win piles of money from the casinos at blackjack.

The reality is that for every proficient card counter, there are probably hundreds of poseurs who think they have the right stuff -- but as far as being a threat to the casino's bankroll, they're more like Kenny from "South Park" than the late Kenny Uston, the legendary card counter.

The blackjack games that pay 6-5 could eventually destroy that mythology, says Wattenberger, the gambling software developer.

"There is a symbiotic relationship between card counters and casinos," Wattenberger said. "They need each other. Forty years ago, before Thorp's book came out, table games were not nearly as popular as they are now. If it weren't for advantage players, the casinos would be wall-to-wall slots.

"The average person is never going to study (blackjack) enough to gain an advantage over the house -- but it makes them feel better knowing they're playing a game of skill. You lose that with the 6-5 games."

Curtis, the publisher and part-time star on the Travel Channel cable network, predicts players will eventually abandon 6-5 blackjack.

"Over time, bit by bit, person by person, the entire market is going to react as a single organism and people will move away from that game," Curtis said. "It will hurt the casinos in the long run."

A couple of generations ago, Horseshoe founder Benny Binion said that giving customers "good whiskey, good food and a good gamble" was the secret to his Las Vegas success.

Schlesinger, who is preparing to publish a third, revised edition of "Blackjack Attack," said 6-5 blackjack is an example of "a good gamble" becoming scarce in modern Las Vegas.

"Casino owners, in their infinite greed, seem to have no shame these days," Schlesinger said. "There are all sorts of side bets and rules variations that have been concocted to extract more money from the unwitting players."

Schlesinger did say the players should know better: "With books and websites that furnish accurate analyses of all the games, it's easy to become an informed, tough player."

Thompson, the UNLV professor, said players who are craving the single-deck experience can still satisfy their urge in Las Vegas.

The Horseshoe, for example, still offers one of the city's best single-deck games -- and no 6-5 tables.

"This is the way we've done business for 50 years, and there's no plan to change it anytime soon," a Horseshoe spokeswoman said.

As does Schlesinger, Shackleford, the gaming consultant, criticizes players for patronizing the 6-5 tables.

"To be honest, if I owned a casino, and my goal was to maximize profits, I might have some of these 6-5 blackjack games to capitalize on people's foolishness," Shackleford said.

Even so, Shackleford said, "I definitely think it's a public service to warn people about this game."

As Shackleford and many others will tell you, if you come across a table that pays 6-5 for blackjacks, don't worry about whether to hit, stand or double down.

Just split.

poor game
Posted by gorilla player on 23-Nov-2004 23:19:25 (#10945)

I was in Vegas this past June. Wife, brother, his wife and I were out sightseeing through the various strip casinos when we saw the "single-deck blackjack" sign over a table with a $10 minimum. We sat down to play for a few minutes before moving on up the strip, and on about the 3rd or 4th hand, I got a BJ. When I was paid off, I was a bit confused by getting a pair of red chips and two silver chips. I asked the dealer "didn't you make a mistake?" He said "no, BJ pays 6:5 on this game." I asked "how would one know this since it isn't on the felt surface anywhere. He took a small card out from under an ash tray and said "here" (it said "BJ pays 6:5".

We left. I then started watching more carefully and noticed that all the SD games I spotted were paying 6:5 although I did not hit anywhere near every casino in Vegas. But I thought the chintzy card was prett bad, and I noticed that in several major casinos, the signs were hardly conspicuous in where they were posted.

I had already learned to ask about "surrender", doubling, resplitting, etc rules, to avoid problems once the game started. Never occurred to me that it was also necessary to ask about the snapper payoff. I've only seen it at SD games so far, but I wonder if this will migrate further down into the multi-deck games if they can get away with it. When I asked about it and said "that's ridiculous, let's play somewhere else" one of the other players said "what's the problem with 6:5 payoff, it's better than 3:2 and we only have one deck so that 21 happens more often." I shook my head, and asked "so 3 halves is smaller than 6 fifths? - your elementary school teacher must be proud."

I know that several counters have pointed out that SF21 is beatable, but I can't stand the idea of learning a new BS and new playing rules (doubling on lots of cards, etc). I'll leave those for others to toast...

But I agree with others about the 6:5, it is bad, and the advertising is even worse... and the Nevada Gaming Commission is right in line with what I'd expect here, "hell with the "customers, the bigger the hold, the bigger the state's share (taxes)"

Of course, most people gamble driven by greed, so it's hardly a surprise to see the state driven by that same greed. :)

The scare-off
Posted by Gorgon on 28-Nov-2004 11:52:04 (#11004)

Those atrocious 6/5s are the beasts that induced me to design a counting system for Super Fun. This game is tailor-made for a pro because only a pro is going to put in the time and effort to master it. Not so with the reckie player. He'll be getting his clock cleaned no matter what one-decker he enters. Goodie. The casinos get what they want and maybe they will leave the rest of us unmolested.

not surprised...
Posted by gorilla player on 28-Nov-2004 20:48:33 (#11010)

It's expected that good players will learn to exploit new games. I've looked at SF21 a bit, but the BS is different enough from normal BJ and I don't play often enough to really try to stay boned up on both games. Ergo, I'm probably not going to play SF unless something goes really wrong with BJ. Of course, things are going really wrong in places. 50% pen ruins DD. 6:5 ruins a lot of SD. Shoes with shallow pen have huge variance. Etc.

Glad you are doing well at it however, perhaps it will be in my future if the casinos remain so paranoid about SD/DD games...

How Old Is This Article?
Posted by Dog Hand on 23-Nov-2004 23:19:57 (#10946)

Schlesinger, who is preparing to publish a third, revised edition of "Blackjack Attack," said 6-5 blackjack is an example of "a good gamble" becoming scarce in modern Las Vegas.

The Horseshoe, for example, still offers one of the city's best single-deck games -- and no 6-5 tables.

zengrifter,

These two quotes in particular left me wondering how old this information is. BJA's 3rd edition has been out for over half a year, and, sad to say, the vaunted Horsesh*t is indeed offering Crap Jack on all its SD tables.

Otherwise, a very good compilation of the whole sorry episode.

Dog Hand

crapjack
Posted by gorilla player on 24-Nov-2004 08:32:08 (#10947)

Not a bad name. Got it trademarked yet?

Coiner of "Crapjack" *LINK*
Posted by Dog Hand on 28-Nov-2004 17:10:09 (#11008)

gorilla player,

Much as I'd like to claim credit, the originator (as far as I know) of the term "crapjack" as applied to the 6:5 game is none other than Dallas Barrister, who coined the term in a GC post just over a year ago on November 26, 2003. Click the link below.

My own entry into the "Name the 6:5 Abomination" contest was "HiJack", since that's what the casino is doing to your $$$. Other notable offerings included CG21 (Corporate GREED 21), Gypjack, Short Pay Blackjack™, RipoffJack, and One Jack Off.

Maybe we need another naming contest, Mayor?

Dog Hand

Making bad games go away...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 24-Nov-2004 10:02:26 (#10950)

is all about informing the public. If the public continues to be uninformed, this crap will continue for ever. Informing and teaching one person in every 1000 BJ players is just not going to fix the problem.

They are a number of people trying to do something but let's face it, it's just not enough exposure.

The problem is...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Nov-2004 10:52:39 (#10952)

... that the people who understand that 6:5 is a bad game and understand why are exactly the people they don't want in their casino. They hate us. They would be happy as could be if every one of us on this website never set foot on their property again. Even a basic strategy player at a game with good rules and good comps costs them money.

So us compaining about or boycotting the game doesn't help. In fact it might give them some positive reinforcement because if card counters are complaining about it, they know they're moving in the right direction. I'd rather play the game, use advanced tactics, spread like a MF and beat it. Seeing the hold drop on those tables is something that will get their attention.

won't work
Posted by eyesfor21 on 24-Nov-2004 11:34:01 (#10954)

yeapo the game is terrible,
spreading like a king still won't work,what you think all of a sudden
there is no heat jsut because its a bad game.
When its a good game is when they offer 2 to 1 for bjacks,only a selected
places offer this during promo's and the Mayor knows where too.

Just because
Posted by Tom on 24-Nov-2004 12:30:36 (#10955)

a gambler does not to play 6/5 crapjack does not mean he's a pro. You make it sound like casinos hate all 3/2 players and dont want their action because they wont play crapjack. Believe it or not,many ploppies and high rollers who lose tons of loot to casinos would not touch 6/5 with a ten foot pole and casinos are very pleased to have them. I see many lonely dealers at the 6/5 tables. To make a long story short Crapjack it certainly not a game ploppies and high rollers are waiting in line to play.

If...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 24-Nov-2004 17:14:13 (#10957)

we could find a way to get the word out to a few million gamblers that the games mentioned above are the worst form of BJ, it could have an impact and could loosen the rules on those games. Question is: How is this best done in the easiest and least expensive way?

6/5 is it's worst enemy.
Posted by Tom on 25-Nov-2004 22:29:31 (#10978)

Crapjack to me is nothing but a nuisance(another carnival game),it is nowhere near(not even close) to the threat of when CSM's first appeared,NOW THAT WAS A NIGHTMARE. As we now know, csms are no longer a threat. Just as ploppies learned to hate CSMs for their losses,I believe the same will apply to Crapjack. In other words no bang for the buck and ploppy voodoo will cripple the game into check. Trying or attempting to convince card counters to beat this game using ridiculous spreads in order to reduce hold is a risky and unworthy adventure that wll never work. It's much easier to simply walk up to the table,buy $500 bucks in chips and leave while complaining out loud how you thought this was REGULAR blackjack. Congratulations, you've just decreased the hold with no risk and also spoke of disaproval for the bloody game! Maybe try it again on next shift:)!???

Making money with 6:5 !!!
Posted by gui on 26-Nov-2004 00:20:13 (#10979)

I got you!!,

Maybe we should sell T-
shirts with "no 6:5" logo on them

The Shoe From Hell
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-Nov-2004 02:11:38 (#10961)

I plan a trip for a 2% risk of ruin, the parameters being the advantage of the game, the number of hands I'm planning on playing, and the amount of money I have available on that trip. If I play once a week, that would mean on the average of about once a year I'll walk out of the casino spitting and cursing.

Fair enough. But I didn't plan on it happening today, the way it did.

First store- played about 3 hours. Limits were high, tables were crowded, and all the dealers were dealing like they were on drugs. Goofing off and chatting between cards, dawdling with their racks, giving me about 40-50 hands per hour and I was just in no mood for that crap given the other disadvantageous conditions. Walked out about 10 units down in 4 hours.

On to the second store. Also way too crowded, but I found a fast dealer giving good pen. Played 2 hours, up 5 units. Left the table to go home, got my play in for the night. But on the way out, I figured I had a little more left in me, maybe Wong into a shoe or two headed for the door.

Oh, to be able to take that decision back! Watched a shoe, Wonged in at +3 (HO2) about 1/4 of the way into the shoe. Then everything turned to garbage. The count went up and up, but I lost every hand but one. I walked away 200 units down. But not at the end of the shoe or the count. I had to walk away from a +11 count because I did not have a dollar left in my pocket.

Driving away from the casino realizing I didn't have a playing stake any more, and that it would take >40 hours of table time just to get back to where I began this night. And that it felt like I had paid my dues, and things were bound to get better, and a second later thinking, in a pig's ass they are. This is no less likely to happen on my next trip than it was on this one. Utterly stifling. But I'll be back.

Whats the Problem??
Posted by wongout on 25-Nov-2004 09:02:32 (#10965)

You jumped in at a +3 and rode it out. The rising count meant the you were betting into junk; although there was no way you could know that figuring that the high count meant the bricks were coming. You stayed put and kept chunking it out until tapping out. Thats 21 and happens all too often - I like that you kept dishing it out even though you were getting hammered. I only hope that as you cash drew down you lowered your bets to be able to cover a necessary split or double.

Tommorrow's another day so long as you have some benji's.

good luck

wong out

plus 3 was your problem *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 25-Nov-2004 11:50:05 (#10970)

Good thing your tough as nails
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 25-Nov-2004 09:07:50 (#10966)

I have become accustomed to this kind of treatment from 6D lately also. One thing though, I learned the hard way only one time to always have plenty of Ben Franklins in my pocket so I never have to walk away from a big count and let the plopsters have all the goods. I assume you have now learned the same lesson.

Notice also how when the vacume gets turned on to your money, the other players just look at you like as if your some kind of a knut case, especially when you take insurance while having two giant bets out on two sorry azz stiff hands? Then it turns out the D has a 9 under or just catches the miracle hit card of 5 while the C in monsterous mode.

Happened to me an hour ago! :-(
Posted by BJ_Player2004 on 05-Dec-2004 01:20:17 (#11087)

Lost just over 5% of my bankroll on two wonged-in shoes!!! Lost damn near every hand and yes, the table looked at me like I was a moron as I pressed my best into the losses while insuring stiffs for big bucks (didn't get one insurance bet tonight, either).

It happens. Just the nature of the game. I did have ample cash to play through the positive counts and the tenacity to not really care about these short-term results. In fact, I had to remember to look disappointed.

similar result
Posted by gorilla player on 05-Dec-2004 14:17:42 (#11089)

Played for about 4 hours, scattered around a couple of casinos. Found a $5 DD game, won about 75% of the TC <=1 deals, lost nearly every deal where the TC was 2 or more. Including three consecutive hands where the running count was 6, TC was 12. (heads up 2d game). Two of those hands were dealer 21, with the ace down so no insurance. I got closer on the third, with two 10s, dealer pulls a 5 card 21 out of a TC (when the bet was made) of +10. Case of winning most of the hands I played, but I started with $500, and ended up with $320.

Two of those sessions in a row now. And the bad thing is, I won so many of the negative TC hands, I actually made a good bit of money as I really don't think I want to win 6 in a row and still bet $5. I was spreading $5 to $40 (only had $500 bucks to play with, had not planned on playing until a family memeber made the fatal suggestion. Even at $40 per hand, three aces (split to 3 hands, with a 21 (push), and two doubles against a dealer's stiff 6 that turns into a 21 will really drain the chips in a hurry. Seems that I would catch back up on the small bets slowly, then a big count and smash bang...

Time to see this trend turn around...

Apparently my dealers have not been reading any AP books to discover that big + counts are supposed to be good for _me_ and not them. :)

I've successfully tossed over $500 over my past two BJ sessions...

Good Game?
Posted by Ohio_Jones on 05-Dec-2004 21:11:27 (#11091)

DD with RSA? That's a good start for DD. What were the other rules? What was max bet allowed?

reply
Posted by gorilla player on 06-Dec-2004 10:02:14 (#11097)

Everything but LS. Penetration averaged around 65% but on occasion went farther. Played there again last night. Started with $500. Got up to almost $900, one shuffle reached a TC of +12. Made almost every hand, doubles, splits, two consecutive naturals. Won and lost a bit until another big TC, which hit +10 with a whole deck remaining (1/2 deck to play roughly). Train wreck. Ended up with $445 left, my third consecutive losing session. Terrible to get 2 10's, dealer has a 10 up, flips over an ace. Was betting $5 to $40. Won a lot of $5 bets, but lost a lot (near the end) of those $40 bets. That's not the way it is supposed to happen...

Only good news was there was me and one other highly superstitious player, and he quickly bailed out after a few times of hitting a 12 vs dealer's 4 up (index play), standing on a 15 vs 10 up, and the final act came when I doubled on 8 vs 6 and he started complaining bitterly as I got a deuce, for a 10. The next card was an A that would have given me 21 had I not doubled, but he got the A on his 11 vs 6 (he didn't double) and hit again on the 12 and got a 10. The next hand I split a pair of 10's and that was it. head's up for the rest of the session. :) Note that all of the above nonsense happened prior to my initial big winning streak, which was followed by a losing streak to match and a little more...

1-8 didn't seem to raise any eyebrows, although I never went from 5 to 40 on one hand. More like 5-10-20-40 for TC of <=1, 2, 3, and >= 4. Also made some by doing 5-10 and even 20 on - counts in the middle of winning streaks, for cover. And no, that wasn't what led to my loss. That was actually a bit of my early profit.

As I said, even betting on the low end of the totem-pole ($40 max, although I did go a bit beyond a few times to $50) you can end up with a lot of money at risk on one deal, after splitting to 3 hands with 2's against a 6, getting a 6-9 on two of them for a double, followed by the dealer hitting a 6 card 21 in a deck that shouldn't have even had that many small cards left. :)

I suppose this is why this is called "gambling with an advantage" as opposed to "going to work to make money." :)

As far as max bet goes, it wasn't very high. I visited several places, and really don't recall whether it was $500 or more... I am more commonly found at the $25 table, but with $1000 on me for a two-session hit and run, and after losing most of the $500 first session BR, I was pretty sure that going to a $25 table with just over $600 total cash on me was going to invite a quick and dirty early exit if any bad variance happened at all. So I went the "cheap way". :)

Note this was graveyard shift, not many people playing, even on a weekend. Note also that this wasn't exactly this past weekend. I try to introduce a bit of delay between playing and reporting to make it a little harder to keep up with me if they happen to be so inclined, which I doubt...

another update.
Posted by gorilla player on 06-Dec-2004 18:32:57 (#11107)

Favorite DD game was full. Went to a 6d shoe, just over 1d cut off, good rules including LS. Played for 1.5 hours. Bankroll zoomed from $500 to $517.50. Made me want to throw up. But after three consecutive losing sessions, a "big win" like this is better than the alternative.

Hopefully the cards have begun to turn a bit, but you never know until you play again. The first four shoes I played saw me flat-bet $5, no variance whatsoever, as the TC never got above zero. Total pits. BTW I was spreading from $5 to $100, although I never got anywhere near $100 over that 1.5 hour session. I believe my largest bet was $20 as the TC touched 3 one hand only before a world of 10's came out and drove it back into the toilet where it remained.

$12.00 per hour. Reminds me of my youth. :)

Of course far better than a -$200.00 per hour. I had at least one of those sessions recently...

I don't know how you can be so calm
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 06-Dec-2004 18:26:25 (#11105)

<i>In fact, I had to remember to look disappointed.<i/>

I think I look like I'm about to kill somebody when it happens to me. ;-)

It happens :-(
Posted by BJ_Player2004 on 08-Dec-2004 22:39:19 (#11162)

In fact, I had to remember to look disappointed.

I think I look like I'm about to kill somebody when it happens to me. ;-)

Well, a five figure loss (including a bad session the following night) is nothing to smile about, but it comes with the game, I suppose. I actually had such a good run over the last few months that I knew I was "due", for lack of more statistically precise term. Still have a nice gain overall this year, so I can't complain.

Bad shoe
Posted by Dali- lama on 25-Nov-2004 09:10:51 (#10967)

Sorry to here the neg. variance has got its hold on you.
I,m in a Neg. slump and it sucks...If I can break even by the end of the year
I'll be a happy camper...Just play your casino verite in your off
hours(If you have it). I find the constent reminder that I'm doing it
"right".. gets me through the ruff spots....and of course venting on these Mess Boards helps ...'cuse me just woke up and can't type.

Cheers

this happens...
Posted by gorilla player on 25-Nov-2004 09:32:45 (#10968)

I reported on a very similar happening to me on the free page at rge21... I then asked if anyone had ever done any simulations to see what happens when the count goes out the roof. On the case I was asking about, the count had hit some ridiculous number, reaching +21 with about 2 decks left. Yet I lost and lost and lost. Lots of pushes, lots of dealer BJs, and even though there were a few small cards left, it seemed that I was getting a stiff hand every other deal, and could not hit with the count that high.

Got my clock cleaned. Yet two weeks before I had my best afternoon ever on the MS coast. Played at a $25 DD table (only decent table open where I was) and I was a bit cautious as I had about $1000 with me. First N shuffles were nothing but negative counts, yet I was winning at least 2/3 of the hands. Before I knew it I was up over a thousand bucks at $25 flat-betting. Finally got out of the negative shoes and noticed a guy next to me was betting black and spreading like mad with absolutely no attention from the pit. I now had enough session money to actually play BJ, and started spreading myself 1-8 (green only). Before I left that day, after playing something over 3 hours but not a lot more, I had was up over $9500, the best single session I have _ever_ had.

I keep remembering that session when those "shoes from hell" show up. I really do remember lots of bad results with counts that are over the top... A few on rge21 responded that they had had similar results on big counts as well, but a couple of really good players reported that even so, our advantage keeps going up with the count. Just wish I could convince the shoe/dealer about that...

I almost gave up on Wonging this past June out in Vegas. Seemed that every time I jumped in, the count kept climbing and my pocket kept emptying. Had a few good sessions and ended up down about $500 after 5 days of _lots_ of playing... Cost me at _least_ $10 per hour "casino tax" to play that week. :)

Fortunately that is not so common, particularly (for me) in DD games which I prefer when possible... Of course you can't Wong in on DD games, although you might be able to Wong out a couple of times before being noticed.

Seems to be a trend
Posted by A10Ploppy on 25-Nov-2004 09:58:06 (#10969)

I'm extremely green at counting but have been having a good run lately considering my low bet spread and red chip action until the other night when I had my first correction. I should have heeded some outside factors that seemed to try to warn me. The first was seeing someone literally thrown out the door of the casino (an elderly man), this seemed to really shake up the dealers and players then a few minutes later some obnoxious ploppys bringing everything to a halt because of a percieved dealer mistake. I know it's just voodoo to think that way but it sure seemed to set things off on a bad direction. From that point forward no matter how high the count became (KO) I couldn't win hardly a single hand. My table options were limited as this was just a mini casino and even when I did move the stink just followed me. As a newbie, I need to keep reminding myself to cut my losses and remember that there's always another day but it's easier said than done at times. Anyway, I guess I didn't add much to the thread, just needed to vent more than anything. This is just an expected speedbump so onward and upward....

Stink doesn't follow unless you fart
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 25-Nov-2004 11:57:47 (#10971)

If your moving tables because you think the dealer is hot, that kind of stink is pure voodoo. Just hang in there and stay with the math.

I thought that was the math
Posted by Gorgon on 26-Nov-2004 13:01:44 (#10988)

Beans + Beer = Oh My God!

don't forget..
Posted by gorilla player on 25-Nov-2004 12:06:48 (#10972)

That if you are losing, and leave, that does not guarantee that the losing streak will end. If you are winning and leave, you might be leaving just before the streak ends, or right in the middle....

There are just losing sessions, losing trips, and I have heard pros talk about a "losing year"...

Voodoo
Posted by A10Ploppy on 25-Nov-2004 12:34:54 (#10973)

I was kind of tongue in cheek about the stink and stuff, my primary reason for moving was to get away from those idiots that kept disrupting the game plus the dealer had moved to the other table and he had been quite friendly to me during the time he dealt me, there were several "mistakes" on his part that seemed to happen when I needed them the most. The funny thing is that I'm not really all that down about it because I know the math does support me, it's more the heat I'm getting from my significant other for the loss, how quickly they forget about all the times I've won for a single loss, oh well, it's all part of the equation.

Ahhh, spouse issues!
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 25-Nov-2004 14:07:52 (#10974)

I delicately worked my way through this issue to a certain degree of understanding, trust and freedom. Look at it this way. A spouse is probably the biggest motivating factor that keeps you learning and perfecting your game, then keeping all your moves very sharp.

yep...
Posted by gorilla player on 25-Nov-2004 17:54:18 (#10975)

Been married for 36 years myself, and hope for another 36. But I couldn't get my wife to play BJ for anything, even though she plays at home all the time and is a perfect BS player...

However, she much prefers for me to "hit the tables" and tell her the results later, rather than standing and watching (or sitting and watching if the table is not full). I get a lot of "GP (no she doesn't call me GP) that's $200 you just put out there..." I respond, "no, it is just eight of these silly green clay disks, don't worry...". She just gives me "the look" and goes off to the slots or the shops. :)

However, she has _never_ refused to spend or take any of the money I have won. :)

Sold my SR on BJ
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-Nov-2004 21:40:11 (#10976)

She even knows what it means to Wong! Dig this... she'll hang out with me at the table and make out with me when I'm watching so I can casually Wong in. And when I'm at the table, I give her a signal, and she acts all needy and I can bow out for a few hands. Is that cool or what?

Good thing she didn't see me these past few days though. After my first disaster, I went back in the morning for some consolation, and got treated to another 110 unit loss in 1.5 hours. Now, I'm going to have to sell stock and empty savings accounts to play again. What a miserable business to be in.

I would NOT sell stock or empty
Posted by Ouchez on 26-Nov-2004 05:45:04 (#10982)

savings accounts to recoup those losses. You may be throwing good money after bad. How will you feel if you then lose it again? Devastated? Yes, you will.

You should take a break and review your entire strategic plan of attack for the BJ game.

When and IF you get back in the game consider playing the low roller tables for awhile and see how that goes.

Just...back away for some time.

Ouchez.

Agree
Posted by Counter on 26-Nov-2004 12:40:18 (#10987)

Sounds like he's going on tilt. Losing 200 units in less than one shoe is a rare occurance if you're playing correctly. Must be a huge spread with small units.Let's not get too hasty is the answer.

Not a problem
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Nov-2004 15:30:08 (#10991)

Oh I forgot to add- 300 units is less than a month's take-home pay for me. So when I say I have to make sales and withdrawals to play, that's only if I want to play again next week. It's more the frustration than the financial loss. I do attack this game with a 1:20 or 1:30 spread, and you won't find a table less than $10, that's just the way it is in this part of the country- decent rules, no heat, but because of the large shoes and the crowds you have to grind, grind, grind to make any money.

Hang in there
Posted by ZOD on 26-Nov-2004 07:17:22 (#10985)

Funny how a little variance can test your mettle. I had a 360 unit loss in a 2-day stretch earlier this year. As of this moment, I still haven't recovered fully. I know it's small consolation when you get hit that hard, but everyone who's played long enough goes through this, usually many times.

Hang in there.

ZOD

Plus 3 is nothing,It's negative ev.
Posted by Tom on 25-Nov-2004 22:01:28 (#10977)

I'd start using TC'c to make optimal bets and not get too anxious to bet on a shoe just because it has a plus count,especially if you're using a multi-level count system. Take the RPC count for example, a count of plus 10 may appear exciting for a wonger,however, at the early part of the shoe it means nothing.

Uh no, that was TC *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Nov-2004 03:13:30 (#10980)

Uh,okay.
Posted by Tom on 26-Nov-2004 19:08:03 (#10993)

I assumed you meant what you said. I sense an attitude problem because of your loss. You say your bet spread is 1 to 20 or 30!!? To find out your TRUE risk of ruin you should stay with a consistent bet. It dont appear to me you are in for the grind,grind,grind as you mention, but rather in it for an agressive bet spread with tremendous variance and a high risk of ruin. Hey,take it for what it's worth,but if I was you,I'd either take a break or save up a few more bucks,lower your bet spread,be patient and grind little bits and pieces at a time. Why screw it all up now? I went through this same trip over 10 years ago,it's a freaking drag.

Attittude and spread
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Nov-2004 21:54:49 (#10995)

I'll spread 1:20 when I can only play 1 hand and 1:30 when I can play 2. RoR is about the same.

The problem with ruin theory a la Kelly as it applies to non-professional counters is two assumptions: 1) That ruin is infinitely bad and 2) that you have an infinite number of hands to play. Both are somewhat inaccurate for all players and more inaccurate for a part-time player.

See time is just like money, and if I go to the casino and play green (providing I'm playing properly) and lose it all, oh well. I'll earn the money back, maybe in a week or maybe in a couple of months. Odds are I won't lose it, otherwise I wouldn't have an advantage. Now if I go and play red, not likely I'll lose all the money. But what about my time? I don't get that back. That's gone forever.

That's why I schedule my bets for trip ruin now. All I care about is not running out of money for that session and of course the risk of that can never be zero. If you consider the time you spend at the table to have value if you were to be doing something else, run the numbers and you'll see it works out better that way.

an eye opener
Posted by Tom on 28-Nov-2004 21:57:59 (#11011)

"All I care about is not running out of money for that session and of course the risk of that can never be zero."

But your risk of ruin can be zero. Session (or trip bankroll) is an oddity by itself. Even a ploppy can play a session at zero risk of ruin,yet sooner or later they'll go broke. If your main concern is not running out of money while maintaining the same bet spread,then the answers are simple. Either a)shorten your session, b) bring more money,c)quit before losing your last bet.

"If you consider the time you spend at the table to have value if you were to be doing something else, run the numbers and you'll see it works out better that way."

That's why it's important to have sufficient funds regardless if you're assuming a 2% risk of ruin during a session or short trip. Let's take a look at what really happens. Here's some numbers;

Using typical 6 deck rules and pen(4.5/6), if a player only has 300 units for his weekly session and has a desire to play at a 2% risk of ruin with a 1-20 spread, then he needs to keep his session short(4 hours at 100/hph).It's kind of a useless trip if you value time. If worse rules apply then the session must be cut even shorter. If he does NOT end his session, then risk of ruin will INCREASE tremendously as each hour passes,REGARDLESS of advantage. If the player refuses to quit and plays an additional 4 more hours,he has unwittingly(or unknowingly) increased his risk of ruin by approximately 450%!! How about a weekend trip session of 24 hours? He now has OVER a 1 in 4 (28%) chance of going broke before the weekend is over. So as you can see tapping out is not at all an unusual occurence. So one may say "Yeah,but I got 500 units,well the same principles apply.

Anyhow, good luck and dont take nothing for granite,

Tom

Fundamental Theorem for Shoes?
Posted by Gorgon on 26-Nov-2004 13:35:07 (#10989)

Yeah, it's the middle portion of the shoe and beyond where the juices start flowing. First half of the shoe I find univiting, so my bet doesn't rise there-disregarding any plus count.
With less cards remaining until the cut-card, the less likely the distribution of cards will be entropical. This is the primary reason shallow penetration is so effective at defeating the counter-causing severe erosions to one's bankroll.
I don't claim to be an authority here, as I am generally known to limit my play to single and double deck games only-which are less challenging.

It's a problem
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-Nov-2004 15:21:50 (#10990)

Thus the huge variance associated with shoe games. Win rate does not increase in direct proportion to high-card density. The higher spread necessary doesn't help either. The funny thing is when you are a shoe player you are used to big, long winning streaks too. So when I play pitch and I'm having a good session, it doesn't feel like a good session compared to what "a good session" can mean when you're playing 8D. But I'll take the money over the thrill any day.

The shoe
Posted by Tom on 26-Nov-2004 19:19:24 (#10994)

"This is the primary reason shallow penetration is so effective at defeating the counter-causing severe erosions to one's bankroll."

Not sure what you're saying,if you're saying there is less variance in shallow shoes I agree.

One thing that happens
Posted by Sohrab on 26-Nov-2004 09:10:10 (#10986)

is when count keeps going up, this is bad, not good. You are winning while count is going down - A,10 falling on table. While count is going up, more bad cards falling on table and you are losing. Usually with higher count the next hand is good but sometimes next hand does not come because count goes up even more or shoe ends.

Best Indian Casino In California?
Posted by mylittlepony on 26-Nov-2004 16:12:09 (#10992)

Anybody have any suggestions for which offer the best games? And are there any good games in Palm Springs? Thanks for your time!

IJ's in CA
Posted by Virgin Counter on 27-Nov-2004 00:43:27 (#10997)

IJ stands for Injin Joint.

Agua Caliente in Rancho Mirage had the following games last time I was there:
2 decker pitch game with 55/60% penetration, $25
6 decker with a shuffler, $5
6 decker shoe with 90% penetration, $10

I played the $10 shoe game for several hours. Dealers went very deep into the shoe -- one in particular would go down to half a deck left. Rules were good.

Ploppies are everywhere but keeps things amusing at times.

What else?
Posted by Gorgon on 28-Nov-2004 11:35:59 (#11003)

Does the 90% shoe game offer surrender?

S17 DAS RSA, no surrender.
Posted by KennilworthKid on 29-Nov-2004 12:11:42 (#11018)

I was there last on the Sunday afternoon, July 4 this year. The tables were busy but there were plenty of them and one could table hop easily. Despite the hour of the day, afternoon around 2:30 to 3:00, the table minimums were $5 for the six deck game. Penetration varied by dealer, from a 1 deck cut off (best) to about 2 decks (worst). Although it was a holiday, it was during the summer, and the temp outside was over 100 degrees. Normally, that is the slow season in Palm Springs.

There are no other casino's within walking distance, although there are a few others within a 15 minute drive. I believe Casino Morongo, which is north of the Agua by about 20 miles, has just recently completed a new hotel on its property, and thus the market may be getting more competitive for the Agua Caliente. The conditions may be more favorable now.

However, it is now the snowbird season in Palm Springs, so I am not really sure if you can expect to get the low minimums on weekends that I found on Independance Day.

Chumash
Posted by Garo on 28-Nov-2004 15:45:55 (#11005)

Despite the Mayor's expirences and some bad press I had no problems at Chumash this summer. The only problem I remember is that it's all 6 deck shoes, and it's VERY crowded on weekends.

Weak game
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Nov-2004 16:59:56 (#11007)

The game at the Chumash is H17, 4|6 (maybe once in a while 4.5|6). A really lousy game. I would not recommend it to anyone (since the topic of this thread was best games in California). It is as weak as any game offered anywhere in CA, and weaker than just about everything in LV. Unless you are a local (a college kid, e.g.), there is no reason to play at the Chumash. Certainly don't waste your travel time.

I can very strongly recommend a California game...

Go to "Nice" California, out hwy 20 (above San Fransisco). The blackjack games there are very "Nice". Of course, it takes about 1/2 year to get there from anywhere, and the limits are low.

--Mayor

Barona
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 28-Nov-2004 16:56:16 (#11006)

The SD game is among the best in the country if you can play a $100 min. But a $100-$400 spread in such a good game isn't that hard to swing, it's nothing like the BR requirement you would have for a $100 shoe game.

DD- has mediocre (but variable) pen and good rules. No noticeable heat. The shoe game had only CSM's running at the time so I didn't investigate.

All in all though, Nevada is too close to make the CA games seem palatable, and the apparent corruption at these stores makes me lose my appetite even more. Unless I lived right on top of one of these games I'd rather drive a few hours.

My Initial Answer to The Mayor (Too Long)
Posted by OnePitCritter on 27-Nov-2004 06:25:08 (#10998)

Hallo Again Mr. Mayor & everyone,

Some of my thoughts from this week at work to try to answer some questions:

The Mayor wrote...

You are right that we want to take from you and not give back to you. There is no way we would tell you anything that would help you in your job, on the other hand, you could tell us quite a lot.

In that light here are some of my favorite things the AP/CC gives to the Casino & Helps me in my Job...

1.) Keeping the tables open. People are more likely to join in than start playing alone.

2.) Helping my Dealers properly pace the game.

3.) People love to see winners. Just like in the slots, if they feel like a winner is produced at my tables, (even if it is not them.) they believe it is better to play my games than the competition.

4.) By exploiting procedural problems AP/CC 's help me to find procedural problems at my games. I would much rather have a single hit than an ongoing long-term problem.

5.) And my personal favorite... Annoying my competition! To me it is amazing how much some Properties, or even some of my fellow Floor Personnel will FREAK OUT over what is a relatively small loss.

This Forum is helpful to me. If nothing else it helps me to better understand not just how, but rather why people work to become AP's.

The Mayor also wrote:

My question is, to what extent are you aware that this is going on, but don't know who to look for or how it is coming down? And, what more advanced methods have you come across and dealt with? How do you look for those methods? Does your management just not believe these things happen, or does your management have too much ego to admit you are getting creamed sometimes?

1.) "To what extent am I aware that AP is going on?" I work in a primarily "local's" Casino. I know nearly every player of substance. Some I know because of the potential $ figure of play, some because of their frequency of play. Some because I just like people, and have a natural memory for names, faces, etc. I am aware and accepting of a certain amount of AP in my pit. The above advantages that your community gives the Casino are just some of my favorite reasons why I accept AP. They are certainly not all of the reasons. I am sure that there are many others this Forum could also mention.

2.) "Not knowing who to look for?" is a difficult question for me. Unless I am "too busy" you would have a difficult time playing at my pit without some acknowledgement from me personally. It is amazing how much my job has changed over the years from strictly asset protection to much more customer service driven asset production. At any rate in my venue I try to know everyone.

3.) "How it is coming down?" is a more interesting question. I have some long-term regular players that I swear just do not lose! I am willing to admit that I do not know how they win. It is easy for me to have surveillance rate their skill level, or see if it is an exploitation of a weak procedure. (I enjoyed your story about exploiting a weakness in a Big 6 Wheel procedure.) So far as I can tell they just win. :O) Fortunately for the house they are also too compulsive to actually be winners long term.

4.) I have to pause a moment on your most interesting question, "What advanced methods have I seen and how do I look for them?" Outside of illegal activity, I think one of my favorite methods just involves exploiting a procedure problem. Watching for sloppy shuffle procedures is in my experience the AP/CC's greatest advantage. It is unbelievable how often I find a dealer that clumps (for lack of a better word) their shuffle. One of the advantages I have over my competitors is that I have excellent long-term Dealers. The majority of the Dealers I know (As well as their Supervisors) equate speed with Dealing skill level. This can obviously create a huge player advantage when their shuffle is not true.

5.) "How do I look for them?" Again I have an amazing team of people to help me. I use my Dealer's more than most Floor Personnel that I know. They may be... Scratch that... They are better at rating a player's skill level than I am. I do have to make sure that the rating is not skewed improperly by the level of tokes. I am amazed at how many in your Forum do not see any advantage to tipping! That may come from my being just an old Dealer myself! ;O)

6.) I have to say concerning Management's Ego, they really do defer to me the decisions on dealing with winning and losing. I am sure they know the Casino does get "creamed" by AP's to some extent. I think this Forum would be amazed at how rare there is any mention of AP/CC's to the Floor personnel from Management. They are much more concerned about the level of Customer Service provided by our Front-Line Staff.

Sincerely after a week of weak thought...

OnePitCritter

Great post, I do appreciate it. Happy Holidays. *NM*
Posted by Ouchez on 27-Nov-2004 06:51:10 (#10999)

nice post
Posted by wong out on 27-Nov-2004 11:05:02 (#11000)

Always nice to hear some ideas from the "dark side." FWIW - I havent played in a locals casino for quite some time but find that if I pick my spots there is good ev to go after. IMO - you are way better off looking to increase your drop (customer service, marketing, game conditions/options)than trying to chisel a few thousandths of a % extra out of the hold by squeezing APs. Some get it; some do not - in the meantime I'll have to keep looking for weaknesses to exploit as long as they are there.

best of luck - seems like you have an elightened approach

wong out

Thank you for your excellent and candid replies! *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Nov-2004 11:49:29 (#11001)

the shoe from heaven
Posted by gui on 28-Nov-2004 23:24:49 (#11013)

A lot of people posted responses about "the shoe from hell"
where the count is growing constanly. I remembered my shoe of heaven; it
went to the complete opposite. Two players, 3 spots opens (I had two)
The true count(multileveled) rose quickly (within 2 or 3 turns)
to a +4. At this point, the odds were even (or almost). After,
the TC remained constant for the rest of the shoe. I split hands,
doubled down, got maybe 2 BJ, everything was winning and I kept raising
my bets by 1 units after successful DD or SP.

Stability in the count is good for the player; the dealer shows a
small card -> a 10 in the hole; you need to double down(two small
cards) -> another 10.

More formally, If you are playing a shoe using pure BS and the next 26 cards contains exactly eight 10s, which correspond to an average, then
your EV is about 1% over the EV of the game.*

*I got a D- to my programming course; I suggest you to check this out;)

GUI

Ploppy Shoe
Posted by Tom on 29-Nov-2004 02:11:35 (#11016)

Just because the next 26 cards in a shoe has 8 tens means absolutley nothing if you're not counting cards. To claim you have a 1% advantage is false and misleading.

A plus 4TC is not even odds.

A dealer up-card smaller than a 10 should not be considered a small card we should always double on.

"*I got a D- to my programming course; I suggest you to check this out;)"

There's no programming needed to verify your beliefs are false;)

questions
Posted by gorilla player on 29-Nov-2004 15:04:01 (#11019)

1. what counting system. TC >= +4 doesn't mean much unless you identify the counting system. For Hi-Lo you have a 1.5% advantage roughly, with +4.

2. Why would 8 ten cards in the next 26 give you any advantage? That is what one would expect since there are 16 10's in the complete deck and you get 1/2 of them in 1/2 of the deck. That actually should hurt your advantage, since you will be playing with a pretty neutral deck with a TC near zero. IE I am assuming that if there are the correct number of 10's in the next 26 cards, there are the correct number of neutral and small cards as well. And this is omitting aces completely...

RIP Dominique Victor Cellini (Link)
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Nov-2004 09:00:45 (#11023)

Read about this very sad news in this month's guest podium, by Toddler...

http://www.cardcounter.com/podiums/podium_12_2004.htm

Max Rubin's epitath...
Posted by zengrifter on 01-Dec-2004 16:38:52 (#11032)

...on Cellini was insight on the man long outstanding. zg

Totally agree
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Dec-2004 18:03:14 (#11033)

Rubin gave insights into Cellini that were precious beyond belief. Because of Rubin, I now have an image of Cellini that feels at least a little bit complete.

Thanks for the information
Posted by Seeker on 05-Dec-2004 18:46:27 (#11090)

I appreciated Max's epitaph and all the other remembrances as well. Thanks to toddler for writing the Guest Podium and to the Mayor for hosting it.

Link to (free) Sept. Trip Report - Part 2 *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 30-Nov-2004 14:02:50 (#11025)

Here's the link to part 2 of my September 2004 trip report in issue # 58 of the November 2004 Blackjack Insider Newsletter. This one is probably the last time any of my TR's will be posted in the free half of BJI, for the forseeable future, unless I can convince Henry to continue posting future articles for free, rather than having them in the paid, subscription-only half, like he seems to be intent on doing.

In other news, sales of You've Got Heat are going well. The book became available just over a week ago. It was huge fun signing books for the GC party attendees last weekend at the annual BJ21.com Vegas Green Chip party. Thanks to all you guys for buying it. The book can be ordered here on Cardcounter.com, on BJInsider.com, at BJ21.com and at Youvegotheat.com. For a preview, you can go to www.Youvegotheat.com to check it out. Soon, the Gambler's Book Shop and Gambler's General Store and Huntington Press - all in Las Vegas - will have the book for sale as well as Advantageplayer.com. In Los Angeles, Book Soup bookstores will also soon carry the book at both of their locations.

Wish me luck!

Cheers,

Barfarkel

What is going on?
Posted by JC on 30-Nov-2004 15:22:45 (#11026)

I visited a casino over the weekend I had not been to in a long time. The first night I was there the penetration on the double deck games was 50% at best, and sometimes worse. They had also cut back on the number of spots at the table from 7 to 5. When I asked about this I was given different answers. The first answer I got was that the DD games are very popular and they wanted to give the players more room at the table while playing. Sounded like BS to me. The next answer I got was at least an honest one, "I don't know but you can bet it is not to help the players."

Even though I was able to beat them for about 70 units that night I left feeling a little down. It seems like all the casinos are offering weak games these days and it just continues to get worse. I wasn't going to go back but I did a few nights later, I'm not sure why, other than I enjoy the casino atmosphere. When I got there I noticed the dealer was putting the cut card deeper into the deck than they normally do. I figured she must be new, or just didn't know any better, or didn't care. No matter, I was pretty happy about it. About 15 minutes later I heard the floor person say to the dealer that she needed to cut the deck deeper. My first thought was that he meant for her to not cut so deep, but I was wrong. For the rest of the night I had really good penetration. I'm still real curious about what the hell is going on over there. Any ideas?

I just wish more casino managers would realize that they will make a hell of alot more money dealing more hands per hour to these dumb ploppies than they will ever save by trying to hinder counting. It never ceases to amaze me how bad most players are.

What do you guys think is the real reason they went from 7 spots to 5? My guess is that they were going too deep in the deck when dealing to 7 spots. But when I go back and see that the penetration is so much deeper on the 2nd night I was there I am really confused. Any ideas?

Good question
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 30-Nov-2004 16:41:32 (#11027)

It seems that cutting pen and cutting the number of spots at the table would be related. At a full table, each player would be getting the same number of hands per shuffle with 5 spots / bad pen and 7 spots / good pen. Thus the non-counting players at the table won't notice the more frequent shuffles. Only reason I can think of.

Casino-wide bad pen doesn't bother me that much as long as the pen is variable. All you need is one dealer giving good pen when you're playing DD. It doesn't matter what's going on at any table but yours.

minor problem
Posted by gorilla player on 30-Nov-2004 20:32:27 (#11028)

If you have a single good dealer, as I had a few weeks back, that's great. But when the "sub" comes in, it seems to be both a good idea to take a break (avoid the usually shallower penetration) and a bad idea (points out that you like one particular dealer and the PC might be curious as to why, leading to the dealer being told to watch the placement of the stop card...)

What's so hard to believe?
Posted by Alex van Matrix on 01-Dec-2004 12:47:04 (#11029)

You almost sound upset. You ever wonder why some ploppies feel like a smashed sardine at a full 7 spot table? It's easy to imagine. A casino will make more money dealing to 7 tables of 5 spots than 5 tables of 7 spots and dealing more cards, still confused?

They didn't add any tables! *NM*
Posted by JC on 01-Dec-2004 14:43:56 (#11031)

They dont need to!
Posted by Tom on 02-Dec-2004 17:09:55 (#11049)

Think about it.Ploppies dont like playing heads up(BAD LUCK). Many tables remain empty due to this belief. Now if these were five spot tables the rest of the tables will pick up the action and make more money due to increased speed and penetration. It's actually a very wise and efficient decision that makes the casinos more money and gives a roomy relaxing comfort to ploppies while they go broke. Does it make sense now?

Dont be mad and confused,be glad and amused.

Easy answer
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Dec-2004 13:53:30 (#11030)

>What do you guys think is the real reason they went from 7 spots to 5?

More hands per hour per player = more money for the casino.

Also just plain easier for the D...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 01-Dec-2004 18:59:52 (#11034)

to stay in better control of 5 than 7. I think they have determined that they can get more hands on the table with an optimum of 4 to 5 players. Resulting in more control and more $ made.

More to add
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 01-Dec-2004 19:03:23 (#11035)

I think it's a good thing for us, restricting the player positions to not more than 5. I like it especially with 6D. I get more hands per shoe.

better idea
Posted by gorilla player on 01-Dec-2004 23:23:45 (#11039)

What about a _one_ position SD (3:2 of course) table? :) I don't know how fast a good dealer could go, but I'd be willing to give it a whirl. CV Blackjack in head-on mode with speed wide open is fun and fast for practice...

Quick thought without much thought
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 05:59:42 (#11041)

I would guess one of the following two possibilities...

1.) They want to be able to advertise that they have a Double Deck game available to bring in players. But want to severly limit it's availability to "Force" their customers into playing a poorer game.

2.) The second day with improved pen reqired by a Floor-Person may concern me as an AP/CC They may be trying to set up a game where it is easier to "spot" AP/CC.
Do they have a reputation for backing off or giving AP's "Heat"?

It is a truely bizarre idea to me to limit available playing positions on a table. On the spur of the moment I can't think of any other possible House advantage.

Truely Strange,
Truely Stumped,

Sincerely,

OnePitCritter

Perhaps they want to prevent players spreading to two hands? *NM* *LINK*
Posted by Dog Hand on 02-Dec-2004 22:07:27 (#11069)

Cut card effect *NM*
Posted by Sohrab on 04-Dec-2004 02:41:43 (#11083)

Is counting with chips a "device"?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Dec-2004 21:41:36 (#11036)

It is illegal nearly everywhere to use any kind of a computing device at the table for advantage play. Now let's say I use a chip code, with my pile of cheques for keeping track of sidecounts or key cards or something. In effect, I have made an abacus, and an abacus is a form of computer.

The defense would argue that the house gave me the cheques at the table and knew they could be used for this purpose therefore they consented to my actions, but that might not be enough. Do you think I'd get busted? The way my learning curve works I'd only have to use the abacus for a while before it's unnecessary but still I don't want to take a chance getting prosecuted for something like that.

I'd be worried
Posted by gorilla player on 01-Dec-2004 23:21:02 (#11038)

that it would be a bit obvious. :) However, I have heard of people using them to remember things like an ace side-count... The concern would be a stack of chips that varies in height exactly with either the running count or true count or whatever you are using...

I remember Uston's "The Big Player" book talking about remembering different side counts based on position of shoe on stool rung, etc... I've read in the past where others used things like cigarette position on ashtray, rotating a beer bottle, etc...

Obvious for sure
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Dec-2004 00:18:55 (#11040)

But in CT where I play heat is non-existent, less even than AC. The games are not that vulnerable and the stores are just so big they are willing to absorb lower level counters. I already use an ace sidecount, but what I wanted to add was 1) a sevens counts for a Super 7 bet and 2) keycards for ace prediction. The problem with keycards is that it's hard to remember the ones you are collecting on this round at the same time you're recalling and playing the ones from last round. So I want to: first collect keycards, then during a shuffle imprint them on my chip pile, and for the next round I can collect more keys while looking at my chip pile between rounds to see if I need increase my bet. Either way, I'm only going to have to do this for a few sessions before I don't need the chips to record, but I can't practice well outside of a casino so I'm probably going to have to do it unless I find another workaround.

Using Cheques...
Posted by John Wesley Powell on 02-Dec-2004 09:58:01 (#11042)

Not illiegal, no matter what any one says. Some of Hylands girls were arrested in Canada for using beads on a necklace. The case was dimissed as I recall. Cheques are not a foreign device. I've seen them used to track one pass shuffles. It is okay to use cheques - as long as you play where the pit comes to work in the short yellow bus.
JWP

so..
Posted by gorilla player on 02-Dec-2004 10:36:34 (#11045)

You are going to have a bunch of stacks of chips, each meaning a different thing? Sounds workable, so long as you can keep up with what each pile means. Of course the first time you split or double-down, you might wreck your counters if you are not careful where you get the chips from. :)

I doubt they would prosecute you.
Posted by SammyBoy on 02-Dec-2004 10:18:16 (#11043)

And even if they did I don't think a jury would convict you. I would be more concerned about tipping off the pit to your advantage play.

Prosecute?
Posted by John Wesley Powell on 02-Dec-2004 10:53:36 (#11047)

They wouldn't arrest you for using cheques.
One pass shuffles, sections A, B. C, D, E, F (shoe, breaking the sections down by the full deck). More advanced, breaking the sections down by the half deck. Sections A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L. Now use 6 or 12 stacks of cheques to track the shuffle. Not tooooooo obvious. Personally - find a one or even two pass shuffle. Map it, practice it at home till you can do it in your sleep, during an earthquake or forest fire. Then learn to cut the deck, practice this till you can automatically cut 12, 23, 48, 52 or any number of cards exactly. This will let you determine when your section or sections will come in to play.
Good cover play: Decks are about to be shuffled, get up leave the table, come back just as the shuffle ends, cut to your section, win - win - win - Leave casino rich?
Sounds easy enough - if you work at it. This is just a cliff notes version.
It takes skill.
JWP

"koko ita"...
Posted by gehrig on 03-Dec-2004 15:14:27 (#11078)

in a mostly tongue in cheek booklet, listed a variety of common items a player might use to "keep the count".

Tough in cheek...
Posted by John Wesley Powell on 02-Dec-2004 10:37:19 (#11046)

Just got password to post. Just checking to see if it worked. I mean come on if grifter can post...

Once again...
Posted by zengrifter on 04-Dec-2004 13:30:26 (#11084)

...who in the hell is John Wesley Powell? zg

A link about John Wesley Powell *LINK*
Posted by LVBear584 on 04-Dec-2004 23:12:27 (#11086)

Click below.

Very Cool!!! *NM*
Posted by Ohio_Jones on 05-Dec-2004 02:47:07 (#11088)

ROTFLMAO!!!!!! *NM*
Posted by John Wesley Powell on 09-Dec-2004 18:40:50 (#11175)

I for one am happy to finally know...
Posted by zengrifter on 09-Dec-2004 19:19:55 (#11179)

...just who in the hell is John Wesley Powell! zg

Casino Procedures - Fill, Count and Drop Box Q's
Posted by toddler on 02-Dec-2004 15:08:09 (#11048)

I have some questions on casino procedures and was hoping some of you may be able to respond. Attempting to fill in the blanks on some research.

1) What metrics are used to determine if a fill is required?
2) Who determines whether a fill is required?
3) How many times a shift is a chip inventory performed? When and by whom?
4) When are drop boxes usually pulled?
5) How long after the drop box is pulled is it counted?
6) Once a drop box is counted, where is the information sent?
7) When a table count is performed, from a cursory glance, what would make the pit believe the table is holding well? What would raise a flag?

toddler

hold
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Dec-2004 17:24:18 (#11050)

"7) When a table count is performed, from a cursory glance, what would make the pit believe the table is holding well? What would raise a flag?"

Being the variance of the game is so high, I don't believe any kind of observation between fills can give a meaningful assessment of a table's hold. A lucky ploppy will empty out a tray quicker than a good counter, and on any given night there are a lot more lucky ploppies than good counters in the house. Management has to realize this, but who knows if the PC's do?

Yes, AutoMonkey is exactly correct ;O) *NM*
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 19:16:59 (#11057)

Ah yes, but...
Posted by toddler on 02-Dec-2004 19:21:48 (#11058)

... doesn't the table card or lamer cup offer the pit personnel an idea of how much has been dropped? Looking only at the float is not the only indication. Correct?

Yes and a Lamer Cup ? ;O)
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 19:45:12 (#11062)

Hallo Toddler,

Correct.

Quickly here are some different procedures to track drop...

1) Dealers must call out and have all drops authorised by Floor Personnel. The Floor is primarily checking to see that the chips match the denomination of buy-in.

2) At this time the Floor may write down the drop on table card. Or at some properties they use a table "Clicker" to count the # of twenties/Hundreds/whatever.

3) Dealers may track the drop by using an abacus system in their tray to track drop. For those of you who have never seen this. I swear I didn't get the Idea from AutoMonkey.;O)

Yes, the Table Card can give an Idea of not only how much but also if used correctly who dropped how much. I am sorry I do not know the term "Lamer Cup?"
What is it?

Sincerly,

OnePitCritter

Lamer Cup
Posted by toddler on 02-Dec-2004 19:52:30 (#11064)

This could be a dated procedure. I'm told that pits used to use a small cup where small clear chips were added signifying how much was dropped. All the supe had to do was check the cup to determine the drop amount, kind of like marker chips. I've seen lamer chips used to hold spots for players while they take breaks. It's placed on their betting square.

toddler

Now I See But have never used one. Thanks *NM*
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 21:17:21 (#11068)

It still won't detect advantage play
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Dec-2004 20:14:31 (#11065)

Because there's only going to be a few thousand hands max between fills, on a game with No = 20,000. So if you were to rate the players by how much damage they're doing to the hold at one sitting, you're not significantly more likely to bar an AP than a ploppy who's having a great night. But it still might draw attention to the table which nobody wants, so I switch tables if it looks like I'm emptying the tray.

Is a Fill Required?
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 17:32:24 (#11051)

Hallo Toddler,

Excellent Questions! I have dealt with many different procedures in my tenure as a casino employee. So my answers here may not apply to the properties you play at. I had a supervisor once tell me, "Procedures are written on paper rather than in stone so that they can be changed if needed." Also, our procedures are separate from Internal Controls. Some of your questions apply to that vein. I will not be able to answer them. Here are some examples that I have seen, and dealt with.

1.) What metrics are used to determine if a fill is required?

Some questions I view about the Players when checking if a fill is needed.
A.) What is their level of tipping? Dealer tokes are removed from the table immediately. This can create the need for a fill. Also, at the property you are playing at are dealer tokes colored up or matched chip for chip and removed.
B.) Who are the players at the table? In the Best Posts Section Abraham de Moivre posted an excellent "Know the Enemy" Post. I often tell my Floor Personnel and Dealers, "The House doesn't lose a dollar until it leaves the Casino." Most players have a certain stop level, win or lose. I try to know what each player's parameters are. When I look across the felt I need to know if the chips in front of the players are going to return to the tray or leave the table. Again that is different than cashed out. At any rate I realize that chips on the table are potential chips in the tray.
C.) Do the Players have superstitions about coloring up? Or are they more likely to cash out any Black/Green or Purple chips etc.

Some other metrics
A.) Is it a Saturday night?
B.) How busy are we likely to get later? I use the numbers from last year/month/week to help "Budget" this.
C.) Will Security have time to easily get me a fill now or is Sid just headed for his Break? Fills must obviously be coordinated with Multiple Security Personnel.
D.) Is my Pit closing soon? Does the property you are at close tables/Pits? How do they close them? By calling a last shoe for example or by no longer allowing "new" players at the table.
E.) Is it coming up on the time for a "Pit Chip Inventory?"

Fills are part of our Daily preparation procedures. There is also a rarely used procedure to "Credit" chips back to "Casino Inventory" if a table becomes over-filled with chips to the point that it affects asset security.

I am going to try to answer your Questions in separate posts to avoid the inevitable length. ;O)

Sincerely

OnePitCritter

Who Determins if a fill is needed?
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 17:36:35 (#11052)

Hallo Again,

2.) Who determines whether a fill is required?

The need for a fill is determined by and prepared by the Floor Personnel, then authorized by the Pit. Ordering the fill procedures are Internal Control. I have seen properties where it seems to be primarily determined by the Dealer and prepared by their Floor. I try to avoid having Dealers screaming across the Pit "I NEED A FILL!" If this happens at your favorite property I always wonder what the Floor Personnel & Pit Critter are doing instead of their job? ;O)

Still Sincerely

OnePitCritter

Right or left handed dealers
Posted by toddler on 02-Dec-2004 19:28:36 (#11059)

OPC,

Does the dealer being right or left handed have anything to do with how a fill is determined? Knowing that the large demon chips are centralized, then decreasing to outer silver, does a decrease in one side of the float, normally where a dealer would make payouts, have an affect? Is this a factor?

Excellent responses by the way.

toddler

Left or Right Handed dealer procedures
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 20:56:59 (#11066)

Making me think on my evening off Toddler, ;O)

Thank you by the way!

It is a Right-Handed world. Different properties again different procedures.

Some that I have "Dealt" with personaly. (All of these are from Dealer's Perspective)

1) The Dealer is only allowed to use his right hand in the tray and can only pay out chips from the right side of the tray.

In case #1 the dealers should be transfering chips to the right (Dealer's perspective) to only pay out with the chips on the right side of the tray. The Dealers may need Floor approval to move them. This "Helps" the Floor know when there is a movement in the table's tray of note.

Sometimes at a Ploppy Property with this procedure the "Right Side" Chips are payout chips, the "Left Side" Chips are Buy-in chips. The Pit personnel are less concerned with the "Right Side" chips. If a dealer needs to use the "Left Side" chips to pay out it indicates a losing dealer. Ploppy mentality? I know, but it is still out there. If you see a Dealer catching "Heat" for this please exploit that property for all it is worth.

2) The dealer must pay or collect wagers on the last 4 positions with their right hand from the right side of the tray. The dealer must pay or collect wagers on the first 3 positions with their left hand from the left side of the tray. The Idea is for the dealer to keep the "Chip Tray Assets" always in front of their body.

In case #2 (I had a difficult time properly learning this. I am Dominately right-handed.) I watch to see if the dealers are like robots. (Very procedure driven location) Or are they generally covering the body square idea. This is a more difficult procedure to teach your dealers but I like it better from my point of view. Ambe... Ambedetr... Never mind, ;O) People who can properly use both hands are hard to find.

3) With the Dealer's right-hand only, The last 4 positions are paid from the right side of the tray. The first 3 positions are paid from the left side of the tray.

I would guess one of these is being done at your favorite property. Or more likely NOT being done! ;O)

Any way these are some procedures we use. The Fill procedure is not affected by right or left-handed dealers.

Sincerly

OnePitCritter

How Often is Inventory Done?
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 18:26:45 (#11053)

Toddler Wrote:

3.) How many times a shift is a chip inventory performed? When and by whom?

This varies widely from one property to another. The minimum I have experienced is once per day of play at open and close of each Pit. The maximum I have been involved with involves a full table inventory down to Silver every ½ hour. I never did figure out what the perceived advantage was to that. I can say it SUCKED! I did get very good at very quickly inventorying chips.

Most properties I believe (This is just from my experience) do a general inventory minimum between shifts. As well as a full breakdown at open and close of the Pit.

By whom? The Pit Personnel do the general inventory. The full breakdown again involves Internal Controls. ;O)

It is also possible that your property's PitCritters use a computer program to update on a regular basis the current Pit assets. The Pit may be entering Drop as well as Table Chip Inventory on a regular basis to track a table's current % of hold.

Also a full Casino Chip inventory is done at least once per year much like Walmart or Kmart inventories merchandise etc.

Still Just,

Sincerely,

OnePitCritter

Shift change
Posted by toddler on 02-Dec-2004 19:34:26 (#11060)

OPC,

Is the chip inventory done at the end of the shift? I believe that to be the case. Are the chips in front of the players counted? I believe that may change property to property. I heard some joints do count the player chips to make their shift "look" better.

How long does it take for each table and how many people are involved? I have seen it take a couple minutes using three people.

toddler

When are Drop Boxes Pulled?
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 18:39:14 (#11054)

I am sorry but I cannot answer this.

I hope you can understand why. Obviously one of the most "dangerous" times for Casino Assets is in transit. I am curious as to why you would want to Know?

I can tell you there are many different types of Drop boxes. A very nice style involves 3 seperate slots to help acurately track drop by shift or dealer or denomination for example.

There are also plastic "disposable boxes" with some very nice Ink Exploders. Much like you see on Leather clothes tags at your local full service Dept. Store.

Sincerly

OnePitCritter

P.S. These are just some of the more well known drop box securties. There are obviously many others. :O)

Why I want to know
Posted by toddler on 02-Dec-2004 19:41:46 (#11061)

Simple. Surveillance. Don't they give this process high priority? Just looking for holes in surveillance interest on the tables. For instance, if a pit has three tables with guys chunking heavy green to black, and all of a sudden it time for a drop box change, well what does surveillance do?

I'm not interested in specific times, just how many times a shift. If it's once, that's all I need to know. And, do they exchange all tables in a specific pit?

What, you think I'm trying to rob a place? Bahahahahhaahhaaaaaa.

toddler

How long after the Drop Box is pulled is it counted?
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 18:42:03 (#11055)

Sorry again,

I cannot answer this. Again I wonder why you ask?

With counterfiet money etc...

Sincerly

OnePitCritter

Nope
Posted by toddler on 02-Dec-2004 19:47:28 (#11063)

Not funny money. Again, I'm not attempting to do anything illegal. That's not my schtick. Just trying to understand how casinos work internally, where information flows, how fast, that sort of thing.

In this case, I'm attempting to determine how long it is before finance/accounting/whoever determines there was a hold % issue with a certain pit, perhaps on a specific table. 8 hours, 24 hours???

toddler

Thanks Toddler :O)
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 21:14:30 (#11067)

Yes, I understand.

I must give my appology if it sounded like I thought your Question came from an illegal stand point of view. I am sorry but I am just not comfortable discussing this item on a Public message Board.

Sincerly

OnePitCritter

Thank You for the oppertunity to answer what I felt I comfortably could. Hopefuly someone else in this forum could help with your remaining Questions.

Once counted where is the info sent?
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 19:03:29 (#11056)

Toddler wrote:

Once a drop box is counted, where is the information sent?

Back to something I feel I can answer, Whew. ;O)

The daily information goes to at least the Casino Manager, The Table Games Manager, Primary PitCritters, Accounting. It may also go to Security, Audit personnel, different levels of Admin, and Marketing depending on what they are working on at the moment. For example, are they trying to track a new game type? Or develop a promotion. Or track a particular player's activity for some reason. Not always for AP/CC tracking, perhaps for money laundering as one example.

Again, 8O)

Sincerely,

OnePitCritter

Questions...
Posted by John Wesley Powell on 03-Dec-2004 03:32:08 (#11073)

1) Several factors are or can be used to determine if a fill is needed. Are they short Black, Green, Red? Are the expecting a High roller? Etc...
2) A floor person can do it. It may depend on the house procedures, or how big is the joint your playing in. Some places require that a shift boss or assistant approve all fills or credits.
3) Usually three times a day. Shift boss or assisstant along with a rep from the shift who is releiving them. It is called the count and happens right before (30 minutes) shift change. In addition most modern houses have systems installed at the table to track who has been playing, what their buy-ins or color ups have been, this allows them to track how much has been dropped and whether the table is winning or losing for the day.
4) Most places have gone to a 24 hour drop. Meaning boxes are pulled once a day, usually between 2am & 3am. The exception to this is the poker room where a drop is performed three times a day, 10am - 6pm - 2am.
5) The next morning by soft count.
6) Soft Count personnel enter this count information in to the computer. It generates a flash report or quicktime report that is immediately sent to executive management, usually by 10am or 11am that morning. A more detailed table by table and department by department analsysis (sic) is preformed by accounting and sent out that afternoon or the next day. This flash or quicktime report includes table games, poker, keno, Race & Sports, Slots, and food outlets also.
7) First of all table counts themselves DO NOT raise a flag. Individual players do. Most shift bosses know what tables are losing - they don't usually concern themselves with winning tables unless it has had a big win.

Now Toddler you knew DV, you probably knew the answers to these questions already. Why are you really asking them. Please tell me I'm dying to know.
JWP

Subterfuge and Obfuscation Puzzle
Posted by toddler on 03-Dec-2004 10:14:38 (#11074)

JWP/OPC,

Thanks very much to both of your responses. If we can keep this going a bit further, I would appreciate it.

JWP, your insight is correct when mentioning DV. Offline, DV provided some very interesting information, borderline esoteric, beyond counting. The questions posed are part of a larger discussion, a discussion which, unfortunately, did not get finalized. The bottomline here is obfuscation, looking for pit/surveillance blind or down time. This all relates to "looking inside the casino".

I've seen unnecessary fills performed where there were plenty of all denoms. They absolutely filled the float. I've witnessed small fills where I thought, "What a waste of time." I have even asked the dealer, "You need a fill?" She would shake her head in minor disgust. I attempt to play at tables which are not in need of an immediate fill. This is why I ask about the determining metrics. Something to keep in the back of your mind... pits, traditionally, are not allowed to perform cross-fills, taking chips from one table to another. But the players can.

Let me pose these questions (and please chime in OPC!)... How does a casino know if a table is losing? When do they know? How often are dealers and floor personnel "pushed out"? Do they coincide with one another? As DV would say, "Where there is chaos, there is advantage."

Here's a hypothetical scenario. A casino has two tables, Table 1 and Table 2, each with $10K in the float. I buy in for $5K at table 1 and then a count is done immediately after I buy in. From the casino viewpoint, what assumptions could be made at this point in time? A step further, while they are performing the count, I take all my chips to table 2 and proceed to lose them all. From a cursory glance, which table "looks" better? Has any table lost money? Has the casino lost or made money? How and when would they know? Let's say I appear at table 2 with only $1K in chips and loose them all, $4K stuffed in my pockets. Now what can be determined?

And here's a great question, what could you accomplish by making the oncoming shift think that a certain table is holding well (full of chips) and that any chip purchases are setting out in front of the players or that all the players only have chump change in front of them?

I know you're dying to know why I ask these questions. On some level, so am I. I'm attempting to piece together a larger puzzle DV had left me.

toddler

Money laundering?
Posted by LVBear584 on 03-Dec-2004 18:24:59 (#11080)

Not always for AP/CC tracking, perhaps for money laundering as one example.

Why would a casino get involved in worrying about money laundering?

I think..)...
Posted by gorilla player on 03-Dec-2004 22:11:30 (#11081)

That if they get caught taking large sums of cash, particularly cash where the serial numbers have been logged by the feds, the casino can take a world of heat for doing so... We have a local bank (very large bank spread all over SE) that got caught up in a laundering scheme. Turns out that they _should_ have realized what was going on, but they supposedly didn't. The fine was huge (many millions

Casinos are a prime way to do this...

Also, because most if not ALL...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Dec-2004 12:12:54 (#11129)

...casinos are thmselves laundering money*. So it takes the heat off a bit. zg
*'The Money And The Power' - Denton and Harris

Advanced Omega II
Posted by SammyBoy on 03-Dec-2004 10:36:38 (#11076)

I've stated on this board a few times that I didn't know if I could ever become as proficient with AOII as I was with Hi-Lo. I didn't think that I would ever be able to chat it up with the ploppies, dealers, floor, or CW's as I was able to while usilg Hi-Lo. Well I'm here to tell you that after 192 hours of actual casino time and many more hours of practice time it has become 2nd nature to me. It is amazing how the human mind works. I can glance at a pair of cards and without even having to think about it the value pops into my head. I play mostly single and double deck games and I have been amazed with the power of this system. Thanks to all of you guys for the advice, encouragement, and comraderie. This is a great community!

A final improvement is recommended -
Posted by zengrifter on 04-Dec-2004 13:46:47 (#11085)

You've heard this from me before -

Using counts like AO2 and HO2 WITHOUT a secondary Ace count (such as As-2vs2s/5s+1) does not glean the full power of the level2 Ace-neutral scheme.

If you are only estimating Ace-density per 1/4Deck you are working harder for the amount of gain that is already available with an Ace-compromised count.

Therefor, I recommend that you keep your current indices and swap the Ace and 9 tag values, and drop the Ace sidecount altogether. You will glean the same value with less work. And you will have greater value in shoe games. zg

Thanks
Posted by SammyBoy on 06-Dec-2004 13:37:47 (#11099)

Thanks for the advice. I don't play shoe games very often. My bankroll hit an all time high this week.

Is there a flaw with AO2?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 06-Dec-2004 18:18:25 (#11104)

ZG, has what you mentioned and suggest been mathematically proven with a sim?

If you mean
Posted by gorilla player on 06-Dec-2004 18:27:35 (#11106)

Systems that don't count the 7, no. There are a couple that do very well in PE without counting the 7's...

I've known several people that did an ace side-count for HiLo to improve the PE, but I have not tried it myself. It is on my list of things to try one day...

The "flaw" is in the proposed method...
Posted by zengrifter on 06-Dec-2004 21:49:52 (#11109)

... of applying the Ace side count. Carlson, Humble and others have proposed that you can simply maintain awareness of relative Ace-density per 1/4Deck.

Alas, the above is insufficient to glean the full value of the scheme. What you end up with is the net result of using an Ace-compromised level-2 count (ala ZEN) WHILE WORKING HARDER.

Thus my suggestion that the A02 practioner keep his A02 indices BUT swap the Ace and 9 tag values.

Similarly, the H02 practioner can keep those indices BUT change the 6 to +2 and the Ace to -1

Whats the sense in tracking the Ace ineffectively?

A02 - 112221,0,-1,-2,0
H02 - 112211,0,0,-2,0
ZEN - 112221,0,0,-2,-1

In my last session
Posted by SammyBoy on 06-Dec-2004 14:48:17 (#11102)

I had a really good count in a double deck game so I played 2 hands of 75% of my max bet. Dealer has a 6 showing and on my first hand I get a pair of deuces. I split and get a nine on the first 2 and then double down catching a 7 for 18. I draw a face on the second 2 and stand. My second hand is a 7 and 2 for a 9 so I double again. The dealer then flips his hole card to reveal a 5. Of course he drew a 10 for a 21. I lost 30 units in one round of cards. I ended up playing almost 3 hours and although it was one of the worst sessions I've had this year I still lost only 60 units. It was one of those sessions where the only time the dealer would bust would be after I did. He was making every hand with bust cards showing, and would consistently beat my 18 with a 19 or my 17 with a 18. I guess we need sessions like this occasionally to remind us that card counting does not mean easy money everytime.

You're right
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Dec-2004 16:50:04 (#11103)

These swings are absolutely unavoidable, if you want to play. Oh, how I wish there was a pitch game I had access to to have my bad sessions on! Try having a bad session spreading $25-$300, you'll feel sick.

"breaking vegas" questions
Posted by gorilla player on 05-Dec-2004 21:17:57 (#11092)

Eliot: In one scene (very brief) I got the impression that you had taught some of the team to count or play, then they apparently did some things you had advised against, and then came back for advice later. Was that a true read? Any details you can reveal safely?

Also, did you have any direct role with the MIT team (if you can/want to answer of course)???

I'd like to find out where the "grumpy old lady" works. She came off a bit cocky. Be nice to pay that place a visit next time I'm out there. :)

Disappointed...
Posted by zengrifter on 06-Dec-2004 08:02:35 (#11094)

... my cable system didn't have the Nat'l Geographic channel. zg

note...
Posted by gorilla player on 06-Dec-2004 09:44:53 (#11095)

For those that missed it, The NG website says it is airing again on Wednesday, but I believe I recall that it is in the afternoon, rather than at night...

This has aired previously, I believe...

Breaking vegas.
Posted by Gatherer on 06-Dec-2004 09:50:42 (#11096)

Any Idea how to see or get the show for those of us without access to the NG channel?

I've got it on TIVO
Posted by SammyBoy on 06-Dec-2004 13:40:14 (#11100)

Will watch it tonight. ZG, what is your e-mail address?

griftzen@yahoo.com *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 06-Dec-2004 19:34:27 (#11108)

You've Got Mail *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Dec-2004 10:27:46 (#11123)

I did not see the show
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Dec-2004 23:19:23 (#11111)

They told me they would send me a copy after it aired. We don't get NGC locally, so I have no idea what the show had on it.

>In one scene (very brief) I got the impression that you had taught some of the team to count or play, then they apparently did some things you had advised against, and then came back for advice later. Was that a true read?

Not in real life -- I had nothing to do with the MIT team in any way.

But yes for the character I played on TV.

>Any details you can reveal safely?

They really did win a lot of money. They made a lot of it using methods other than card counting, including shuffle-tracking ace/sequencing team. One of the MIT team is now a screen writer for CSI-NY and lives in Santa Monica, he was a consultant for the show.

>Also, did you have any direct role with the MIT team (if you can/want to answer of course)

No. Nothing.

This was just a fun opportunity that happened to come my way. The production company that was hired was local and they went looking around Santa Barbara for anyone who knew anything, and I just happened to get in their way.

--Mayor

Is the National G channel AKA the discover y channel? *NM*
Posted by Dali- lama on 07-Dec-2004 08:31:50 (#11119)

No it is a different channel - Directv carries it. *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Dec-2004 10:34:36 (#11125)

Enjoyed your performance
Posted by KennilworthKid on 07-Dec-2004 10:47:39 (#11126)

Thought you did quite a good job. It is a cliche in show business that there are no small parts and your's was central to the story. It was a treat to see you acting [tell me, did your blackjack acting skills help you prepare for your roll? ;-)]

It seems the story of the MIT Blackjack team is quite compelling...A book and three cable TV networks have told it. Each time, a little more of the truth gets let out and identities are revealed. I sure more networks or even a movie will try to tell the story again. [I hope the Comedy Network tries it...can you imagine the troupe from South Park as the MIT Team with Cartman as the Big Player..KICKASS!]

In high school
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Dec-2004 11:35:12 (#11127)

In high school I was a drama major. I took several acting courses in college and continued taking improv after college. I am a total ham in front of the camera. Yes, these skills do help at the tables.

Glad you enjoyed it.

--Mayor

One follow up question please?
Posted by KennilworthKid on 07-Dec-2004 12:54:47 (#11131)

Well, you did seem at ease on camera, and I guess each school day you are on stage before a live audience of students. So I would think one in your position would have long ago mastered stagefright.

I do have a technical question though. In this production, the players were shown practicing counting down a deck. Most would flip the cards from a face down deck to a face up pile, and quite rapidly too. Indeed, I don't know if I could get my hands to move that fast, let alone count at the same time.
Is that the speed a counter must has to be successful? Or was that just some Hollywood effects to impress the audience?

Also, there was a shot of one other player using a fan technique in his count drill, moving the cards from his left to his right while counting. I know that is an easier method of doing this drill, as when I do it I can offset pairs of cards and count by twos.

For the count-down drill, I have read the benchmark standard is to count one deck in 25 seconds or less and get the count to match two cards removed at random from the deck. Is this 25 seconds standard apply to the flipping method only? Or does it also apply to the fan method? Or is there a different standard for the easier method?

Well, I guess that was more of a line a questions, rather than a single one as mentioned above. Please excuse my over asking.

Thanks again.

replies
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Dec-2004 13:18:13 (#11132)

>I do have a technical question though. In this production, the players were shown practicing counting down a deck. Most would flip the cards from a face down deck to a face up pile, and quite rapidly too. Indeed, I don't know if I could get my hands to move that fast, let alone count at the same time.
Is that the speed a counter must has to be successful? Or was that just some Hollywood effects to impress the audience?

Hollywood trick. We told them the count in advance and which card(s) we removed, and they just pretended to be counting.

>For the count-down drill, I have read the benchmark standard is to count one deck in 25 seconds or less and get the count to match two cards removed at random from the deck. Is this 25 seconds standard apply to the flipping method only? Or does it also apply to the fan method? Or is there a different standard for the easier method?

I think 25 seconds is the slow end of any method. You should be able to count faster than you can flip, view, fan. Practice!

--Mayor

Face-up, two at a time...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Dec-2004 16:30:24 (#11140)

... you should easily break 20 seconds - that is sufficient (to start). zg

Check my math
Posted by Garo on 06-Dec-2004 10:38:02 (#11098)

Would some of you old guys with better math backgrounds than myself check my math on this one... I have a store nearby that offers a bonus square that pays 5:1 if the first two cards total 20 (actually its a variety of payouts, but I'm using 5:1 as an average). There are 169 ways to get two cards and 18 ways to total 20. That gives me an initial 9.4:1 to earn 5:1, a bad bet even to a ploppy. but I estimate that if I can get the deck rich enough so there are only 9.5 suits I would have the advantage. For that to happen I figure the count would need to be +3.5. Am I correct? Please show me the errors of my ways.

This is called Royal 20's
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Dec-2004 23:14:15 (#11110)

Everything about it matters, not just the "5-to-1" average payoff. Here are the payoffs,

unsuited 20: 5:1
suited 20: 10:1
suited pair (JJ,QQ,KK): 25:1

It can be beaten, but not very well using the high-low count. You have to use a specialized count, and then play it only above the cutoff number for that count. Yes, I have done the research, simmed it all out on a computer, and have played (and beaten) this bet bigtime. No, I will not share. 8-)

Best luck,

--Mayor

Well, how about just a hint for Garo...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Dec-2004 00:22:04 (#11113)

... like maybe the multiple by which his count estimate is off?
zg(knows but not at liberty to say)

To the person who saw me play the bet
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Dec-2004 00:37:42 (#11114)

To the person who saw me play this bet a few days ago (I played 4 of them)...

Not quite sure what you meant by some of your comments, but thanks for noticing. Unless you are using the same count system as me, then your remark about +6 is meaningless...

Small town, small world, isn't it! Next time, introduce yourself (dammit).

--Mayor

Royal 20
Posted by Goose on 07-Dec-2004 01:31:38 (#11115)

From personal experience I can verify this side bet, when it hits, provides some of the best excitement in Vegas. The poor pit doesn't know what to do and they act like the rabbit from Alice in Wonderland scrambling around looking at each other wondering what to do. It's simply priceless.

Sounds like you have to weight pip 10's lower
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Dec-2004 02:55:59 (#11116)

That would be the approach I would start with, to factor in the higher multiplier for a face card 20.. For shoe you can have a quite decent count using different weights for 10 value cards or even for suits; look how well Red 7 works. Just a guess.

Request
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Dec-2004 10:15:56 (#11122)

I deleted your post on CSM's per a reader's request. Also, in this thread, you hint at ideas to beat Royal 20's (though I don't really think you give it away). I am just going to ask kindly for a little more restraint on your sharing of information. 8-)

Thanks,

--Mayor

Personally, I feel that...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Dec-2004 12:08:48 (#11128)

... the Mayor's (and others') restraint on sharing side bet strategies and tactics* here unwarranted. Especially the 3-10 RoyalMatch - this side bet is so ingrained where its offered that it will never be tightened. zg

Respect to the AP community
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Dec-2004 12:21:41 (#11130)

When I get a single email from one AP asking me to withold/delete/not discuss a topic, you bet I will honor that request every time.

That's the nature of the biz,

--Mayor

Respectfully disagree...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Dec-2004 13:21:25 (#11133)

...if that attitude prevailed there would be NO sharing of info, period. Further, why should specific info that is available at another more commercial forum NOT be shared here? What is the logic? zg

Sorry
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Dec-2004 14:04:08 (#11136)

OK, I was just pulling ideas off the top of my head, didn't think I'd be compromising anyone else's work, nor any work since I haven't done any work on the problem. Everything I know about BJ I've learned from boards like this and experimentation, figure I owe something back.

Basically, Garo has asked...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Dec-2004 15:00:27 (#11138)

...if his HiLo TC of +3.5 (assume 1DTC) is sufficient to gain the edge at R20s. zg

How about Hi-Opt 1?
Posted by Garo on 09-Dec-2004 10:03:33 (#11167)

what if I play with Hi-Opt 1, would that make it easier to beat?

Slightly...
Posted by zengrifter on 09-Dec-2004 14:35:05 (#11173)

...but just email me at griftzen@yahoo.com instead. zg

Some help may be gleaned from this thread -
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Dec-2004 00:43:47 (#11195)

Some help may be gleaned from this thread -

http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?noframes;read=2805

And this one -
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Dec-2004 00:51:09 (#11196)

And this one -
http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?noframes;read=3537

thanks for your help ZG *NM*
Posted by Garo on 10-Dec-2004 13:48:04 (#11214)

Tunica
Posted by JJ on 07-Dec-2004 08:53:49 (#11120)

Whre can I find the best odds on single deck or double deck in Miss?

Thanks for any help or advice going this week to Tunica.

The Sheraton
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Dec-2004 10:28:49 (#11124)

Jus playin.

Try CBJN *LINK*
Posted by Titaniumman on 07-Dec-2004 13:55:53 (#11135)

Their Tunica report is a bit vintage (May '04), but at least CBJN is the service with honest report dates.

Their report appears to be accurate except that I believe Sheraton's single deck has now gone 6:5. It wasn't that good of a game anyway.

I Was Joking
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Dec-2004 14:08:41 (#11137)

The Sheraton has a terrible game.

Responses.......
Posted by phantom007 on 08-Dec-2004 07:40:33 (#11145)

Decent SD still avail. at GS, HS, and GR. Share-a-ton switched their SD to 6:5 in Nov., as Bally's did several months previous. Sam's also has SD, though when I was there, just one table. SD not avail. at FTZ and Harr's...I have heard rumors of SD in Hollywood's High Limit room, but have never checked it out.

Adequate DD avail. in most stores.

Rarely play 6D, so cannot comment on this.

Agree with CBJN advice.

phantom007.

Method
Posted by zooner on 07-Dec-2004 13:51:40 (#11134)

Hi everyone,

I have been using a hybrid version of UBZ2 and Fred Renzey's KISS count. I use the UBZ2 tags and the indices from the KISS III system in Blackjack Bluebook 2. I've been having reasonable success but am always looking for ways to improve my time at the stores. Conditions here: 4 decks, DAS, late surrender, always get good penetration(75 to 85%). I'm wondering if I can improve upon my current method by actually getting George C.'s UBZ2 manual or consider another unbalanced count such as the Brh. While I may only occasionally play 6 decks with the above rules, I also want to eventually go to Vegas and play some 1-2 deck games. Thanks for any advice you have.

What are the top20 indices for KISS3?
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Dec-2004 19:46:53 (#11143)

What are the top20 indices for KISS3? Tell me this and I'll tell you if what you are doing is sufficient. zg

This is what I do
Posted by Zooner on 07-Dec-2004 21:04:13 (#11144)

For 4 decks, I start my unbalanced count at 26, using the UBZ2 tags, I start ramping the bets at a running count of 40. A running count of 44 would be +2 true. Here's how I modified the KISS index numbers:

Insurance at 50
8 vs. 5 double @ 50
8 vs. 6 double @42
9 vs. 2 double @ 38
9 vs. 7 double @ 50
10 vs. 8 double @ 56
12 vs. 2 stand @ 50
12 vs. 3stand @ 42
12 vs. 4 stand @ 28
12 vs. 6 stand @ 20
13 vs. 2 stand @ 24
15 vs. 10 stand @ 54
16 vs. 9 stand 60
16 vs. 10 stand @ 34
A/7 vs. 2 double @ 38
A/8 vs. 4 double @ 50
A/8 vs. 5 double @ 38
A/8 vs. 6 double @ 38
10's vs. 5 or 6, split at 58

Forgot to mention the dealer hits soft 17, european no-hole card if that matters. Thanks for your advice.

Betting: 3 units @ 40

6 units @ 42

8 units @ 44

10 units @ 46

At a glance...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Dec-2004 17:32:38 (#11149)

...your method looks sound. One small refinement is that whenever you are forced to play with others at the table, play two hands when the EV is positive - you may bet 50% MORE when your posi-bets are spread between two hands - so 10u becomes 2x 7.5u, etc. zg

Ps - the last round...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Dec-2004 17:34:52 (#11150)

... you may spread to 3 hands and bet 80% more than the 1 hand bet - 3x6u. zg

Thanks, one last thing..
Posted by Zooner on 08-Dec-2004 17:54:51 (#11151)

I like the method I'm currently using, but do you think I'd get any more benefit out of using the "textbook UBZ2" or even the Brh system? By using the hybrid am I hurting my edge at all? Thanks again.

I don't think so...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Dec-2004 18:18:48 (#11153)

... assuming that the indices you are using are compatible. What are the KissIII card tags? zg

Further
Posted by Zooner on 08-Dec-2004 20:21:41 (#11156)

The KISS 3 tags: tens, faces and aces -1, black 2's, 3, 4, 5 ,6,7 are +1, but the indices are halved from what I reported above.

So, to confirm, I'm OK with the system I'm using?

One further question: your advice on 3 hand spread on final round, where I play, if you play more than 2 hands you have to bet the maximum (so, for a $5-$50 table, you'd have 3 hands of $50). Would I still consider doing that if I had the advantage? Or, should I spread to no more than 2 hands for the final round in this case?

Thanks again.

**Responses
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Dec-2004 21:43:01 (#11159)

**Responses -

The KISS 3 tags: tens, faces and aces -1, black 2's, 3, 4, 5 ,6,7 are +1, but the indices are halved from what I reported above. So, to confirm, I'm OK with the system I'm using?

**YES... anyone disagree?

**Anyone care to run some 4D/noHole/das/80%pen UBZ2 indices for our overseas friend who has already taught himself so well?

**If $50 is your max 1 hand bet, then 2x$35 is your 2 hand bet, and 3x $30 is your 3 hand bet. So NO, unless your bankroll can handle a 1 hand bet of $85 it would not be advisable to go to 3x $50. In a VERY HIGH count it might be feasible.

**You might be able to go to a third $30 hand IF you have a cooperative fellow player at the same table. I have found other players at the table typically happy to cooperate with my need to play more hands.

**zg(not to mention my need to participate in their splits and doubles)

Great if you're shuffle tracking
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Dec-2004 21:33:13 (#11158)

I've been known to spread to 3 hands just to increase my chance of getting the cut card.

40% probably a little more accurate
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Dec-2004 21:32:12 (#11157)

Just being a pest!

My betting ramp is RA...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Dec-2004 21:45:13 (#11160)

...therefore I can handle 50%, but 40% is the CORRECT#. zg

Yipee
Posted by Zooner on 08-Dec-2004 23:39:18 (#11164)

ZG and AM, I really appreciate your responses. I'll stick with the system I'm using now. 2 things I need to get better at are having confidence in the amount I bet - sometimes get chicken when the count calls for 10 units and I'm getting hammered, and learning to accept my losses (that's the toughest part after coming off a very sweet ride). But, thanks to your advice, I know I'm doing things right and not mucking things up too bad.

BTW..not from overseas. Up in the Great White North. I'm fortunate I live in a city with good games with the exception of H17 rule. Only wish we had pitch games here. Take care.

When getting hammered...
Posted by zengrifter on 09-Dec-2004 14:33:15 (#11172)

... feel free to reduce your topBet to 2x5u. I would take your 4D/80% game over the typical LV 2D game all day long! zg

Very true
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-Dec-2004 20:08:05 (#11181)

When I'm getting hammered, I want to get even, and to get even I need a good count, and there's no better place to start than the good count I have right now so I keep serving it up. Feels great when you get back to even by the end of the shoe. Just make sure you have enough cash on hand for splits and doubles!!! Ran out once and never forgot to limit my bet to 1/8 of what I have in my pocket, max.

Yes 4D is wonderful. Think north.

Speaking of hammered
Posted by Zooner on 10-Dec-2004 10:17:48 (#11203)

I hear ya, it happened again last night. Had a 2 hour session that just kept going to heck. Twice made a comeback to get to within $100 of even but I just wasn't getting winning hands in those high counts.

Last bet of the night - 2 hands of $50 each (count was super-duper high), ploppy on 3rd base. Things are looking good with my first 2 cards, a gentleman and his lady friend. Ploppy gets an ace, dealer a face. However, my next 2 cards are a frickin' 3 & 4. Ploppy (with a $10 bet) gets a natural. I hit my hands to make 18 & 19 - not bad considering. But, wouldn't you know, in that high count there was another bloody face-leaving me there throwing my last $5 up in the air in frustration.

That was the story of my evening. Discouraged and cursing last night I was. But, I slept fine, feel OK today and I'll get 'em back one day soon. I know I overbet those last hands, but with the count (and my level of frustration) as high as they were - oh well. That'll learn me.

"over-bet?"
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Dec-2004 16:18:45 (#11218)

How do you know that you over-bet?

Assuming that your high count was +6 your edge was in excess of 2.5%. If your BJ-BR was at least $3500 when you made the bet than you didn't "over-bet."

On the other hand, IF you are consistently-aggressively over-betting in those high counts you WILL tap out eventually.

A good rule is for your topBet(1hand)to not exceed 1.5% of your BR regardless of how high the count goes. zg

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