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Fighting & losing 6-5 battle - Seeking advice
Posted by OnePitCritter on 15-Feb-2005 20:27:29 (#12130)
Hallo Mr. Mayor and everyone,
It has been eons since I posted anything here but I have enjoyed reading the posts.
This is my current challenge. I was hoping someone could weigh in. It appears that 6-5 may be coming to my little part of the gaming world. I do not think that I can prevent it as a lowly PitCritter. What I think I can do is try to implement some more player friendly rules to "improve" the game. I am not worth a D@mn at the math end of this.
What I am wondering is what are the player advantage percentage changes in the game (6-5) if I add rules such as:
LS
ES
DAS
SS17
Resplit Aces 4-times/ or perhaps rehit Split Aces
I can find the percentage changes for rule variations from standard (BJ pays 3-2). My gut feeling is that the percentage charts for advantage changes do not apply to this game?
I must be honest, I have done almost no homework on this. I understand if I cannot get any help on my dilemma. Helping the enemy just does not make alot of sense. ;O)
Here is the bizarre end of this I have customer surveys asking for this game. (We currently only offer multi-deck BJ.)
Our current game is:
DAS, HS17, Ins., no ReSplit Aces, 6 deck
Thank You in advance for any responses.
Sincerely,
OnePitCritter
Deal down to the last card
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Feb-2005 21:41:37 (#12133)
All of the rules you mentioned would be beneficial. Dealing down to the last card would be a big hit aming unskilled players because it would set the game apart from others. It would also be a big hit among advantage players. So it would be a win-win situation for the AP's and the house.
Ploppies
Posted by suicyco maniac on 15-Feb-2005 21:50:54 (#12135)
Many times I have seen ploppies complain when a deck is dealt all the way to the bottom...they seem to think it is some sort of way for the house to cheat when in fact it is truly the only fair way to deal the game. SM
A Monkey & S Maniac
Posted by OnePitCritter on 15-Feb-2005 22:52:39 (#12139)
Thank you for responding,
I didn't actually think of dealing to the last card. On first thought I would be inclined to agree with SM. Also I don't see that being possible.
Am I correct in my idea that this is such a different game that my current percentage charts for advantage changes do not apply?
It is interesting to me that my customer comment cards are willing to accept 6-5 in exchange for single deck. :O(
Also, this is being "Pitched" by my competition. If you are wondering why I care, The competition is where I get to play.
Thank you Again,
OnePitCritter
maybe
Posted by stainless steel rat on 16-Feb-2005 09:29:05 (#12141)
changing the BJ payout only changes things for one specific set of first two cards. An A-10. All other options still affect the game in the same way. For example, DAS (double after splitting), DA2 (double any 2 card hand), RSA (resplit aces) and so forth only apply if the initial two cards are not a natural.
The problem is, changing the natural payoff from 3:2 to 6:2 has such a negative impact on overall EV for the player, all of the "good" options you can throw in won't come close to offsetting the loss caused by 6:5. Even ploppies are going to notice that they are losing their money faster at 6:5, eventually, and stop playing the games. Dealing to the bottom would certainly help make the game more attractive. But changing the payoff for a natural to 3:2 would be even better. :)
this will work
Posted by Victoria on 16-Feb-2005 10:07:53 (#12142)
But you will not do it.
If the player busts and then the dealer busts, it is a push. That should more than make up for 6/5, and probably have a nice edge off the top with just a few player friendly rules.
Just dreaming of the impossible.
all bjacks =player wins..nice extra edge plus
Posted by eyesfor21 on 16-Feb-2005 10:31:23 (#12144)
and all suited bjacks pay normal 1 1/2 to 1.
Equalizing 6:5 bj
Posted by gross on 16-Feb-2005 10:29:09 (#12143)
There is an excellent table showing the effect of all common variations on house advantage on blackjack at www.wizardofodds.com under his blackjack (variations) section. Allowing an automatic winner for a "5 Card Charlie" will offset (+1.46%) the 6:5 blackjack rule(-1.39%). The other rule changes you mention don't even come close. The 5 Card Charlie rule is an attention getter which would likely fill your tables with ploppies and knowledgeable players.
good idea
Posted by stainless steel rat on 16-Feb-2005 11:39:42 (#12146)
That's a workable plan. I have played once or twice where a casino was doing that as a promotion. Of course it modifies perfect BS a bit, but that would be a playable game... You could even bet big on those big negative counts, factoring in the 5-card-charlie win. :)
Want to make sure I understand...
Posted by toddler on 16-Feb-2005 10:50:50 (#12145)
OPC,
You mentioned 6:5 SD was coming to your 'burg and you have no say as to the 6:5 payout on naturals. From your post, I gather *you* can implement rule changes. This is more curiosity than anything else... who actually sets the rules for blackjack games? I thought the Casino Manager or VP Casino Operations, whoever, sets the BJ rules and procedures and the games supervisors and dealers follow their decisions.
Does your casino allow the table game supervisors to set the rules???
Regardless, I believe your employer needs to grow some cojones and offer real SD blackjack. They can either be a leader or a follower.
toddler
Toddler
Posted by OnePitCritter on 17-Feb-2005 07:08:12 (#12167)
The company I work for has a tremendous amount of respect for the ideas of our front-line staff. If it is possible to increase play and therefore profit to a level to off-set a lower house advantage, they will generally go with what ever is the best game for the players.
This community is excellent at analyzing game variations. I was looking for some potential "Ballons" to float. Whether they would be implemented or not?? I have no idea. I was just hoping for some ideas.
Sincerely
OnePitCritter
OPC...
Posted by toddler on 17-Feb-2005 08:45:00 (#12169)
The company I work for has a tremendous amount of respect for the ideas of our front-line staff.
This has to be encouraging and, based on what I've read so far about casino management, an exception rather than the rule. If this is the case, could you and your peers lobby hard for 3:2 naturals on single deck? Again, does your company want to be a leader or a follower? I would encourage your company to at least try real SD rather than fake SD. If it doesn't work out financially, then either switch or remove it. At least you can say you tried.
If it is possible to increase play and therefore profit to a level to offset a lower house advantage, they will generally go with what ever is the best game for the players.
Why not increase play by generating more hands per hour? If you dealt deeper in your games, say to one deck or less in your shoes, wouldn't that accomplish your objective? Offering deep penetration and more hands per hour should increase your drop as well as your hold. And don't be concerned with counters. Let 'em have at it.
If you do read these boards, you should know counters are insignificant to the net profit line. Just look at the latest figures from LV mega-emporiums. On your single deck, I'd offer at least RO7, S17 and 3:2 naturals. Sure, it's beatable, but it would bring in all level of player and possibly keep the tables well stocked. Just look at those joints which do offer this game. Recently, I watched a player loose $3500 in 20 minutes at an SD game with deep penetration and surrender. Bad players loose no matter what game is offered.
This community is excellent at analyzing game variations. I was looking for some potential "Ballons" to float. Whether they would be implemented or not? I have no idea. I was just hoping for some ideas.
Well, it's looks as though you've received a flotilla here. If your management really does listen to front line employees, which I believe they should, then based on the information expressed here and at other locations, you should have plenty of ammunition for a convincing frontal assault.
Keep us informed on what happens. And best to you.
toddler
Make it S21, rather than S17 ;-) *NM*
Posted by Dog Hand on 16-Feb-2005 23:04:00 (#12162)
new game
Posted by tywebb1976 on 17-Feb-2005 00:05:21 (#12164)
My local casino just added two single deck 6:5 games. Of course, they are both unplayable NO DAS, Double only 9 and 10, not sure what the penetration will be. But just for curiosity sakes (mind you, this won't be done) more as a conversation piece among friends, is there a point in this game, where it would be advantageous to be double down on a blackjack?
And if you disregard the top question, what kind of bet spreadsheet would you need to play this game effectivey, if one was to tackle it? Min is $10 on weekdays.
Thank you to everyone
Posted by OnePitCritter on 17-Feb-2005 07:21:07 (#12168)
I appreciate all of your responses. It seems that the 6-5 illness is infecting Casinos everywhere.
Currently hand-held BJ games are not available in my neighborhood. It is at least nice to have some ideas to attempt to off-set the insane "Vig" if it does come.
Sincerely
OnePitCritter
rge21.com
Posted by stainless steel rat on 16-Feb-2005 14:58:27 (#12150)
Can anyone reach there? I can't get to them for 24 hours now. I can reach every other web site I normally hit, but even traceroute just hangs after about 20 hops or so...
Haven't had any problems
Posted by jp on 16-Feb-2005 15:06:22 (#12152)
I've been there all day.
No problem
Posted by The Mayor on 16-Feb-2005 15:44:40 (#12154)
I have been there a couple of times in the last 24 hours without a problem, and just tried again and got through.
thanks...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 16-Feb-2005 16:53:34 (#12155)
OK, thanks. We seem to have a network outage between here and there, and there appears to be no viable alternate route that TCP/IP can discover. Hopefully it will be found within reasonable time...
team play
Posted by Randy on 16-Feb-2005 20:22:15 (#12156)
Is team blackjack play still possible after the MIT teams ventures in the 90s?
Given the advancement of casino security and their hightened awareness, can team blackjack play still be done profitably and for any extended period of time?- perhaps on a smaller scaler?
Are there teams that still operate?
Thanks,
Randy
Team Play
Posted by Sonny on 17-Feb-2005 10:49:30 (#12171)
> Is team blackjack play still possible after the MIT teams ventures
> in the 90s?
Sure. People have been using this method since the 70s, and probably before. The BP approach is nothing new.
> Given the advancement of casino security and their hightened awareness, can
> team blackjack play still be done profitably and for any extended period of
> time?- perhaps on a smaller scale?
Sure, but it is usually not the smartest way to play.
> Are there teams that still operate?
Plenty, although most don't use the tired old BP method. There are plenty of other ways to use team members that are more profitable and/or more appropriate for today's games.
In this case, how should I do?
Posted by Tammy on 16-Feb-2005 20:37:01 (#12157)
Hi
Last weekend, I went to Las Vegas to play blackjack.I was playing at Imperial palace DD MIN10 table and I bet 10 dollar each.
Fortunately, the number of a true counts became +7 so I bet 100 dollars,
my hands were 16 dealers upcard has T(10), my decision is HIT ,the next card were T as one expected. Few minute later same situation became and I lost again and again.I am a loser! LOL
I look at a Count Strategy Tables,Its say
Players hand 16 Dealers upcards 9(5 HS) T(-1 HS) A(6 HS)
Is this mean when a true count was +6 .I have a 16 dealer has 9 then stand?, I have 16 dealer has T then HIT?,I have 16 dealer has A then stand?
I dont understand it, Please explain to be comprehensible.
Tammy
Yes, with those +counts you should have stood *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 16-Feb-2005 21:04:06 (#12158)
Thanks, I am so stupid that I can not believe.
Posted by Tammy on 16-Feb-2005 21:59:00 (#12160)
Thanks a lot.
Seriously I am idiot!Made a simple mistake.
How stupid I am to go to vegas with this unoccupied brain.
I have to STAND when a count -1~+count.
Feel ashamed !!!!!!!!!!!!
Tammy
Two suggestions
Posted by The Mayor on 16-Feb-2005 22:24:33 (#12161)
Suggestion 1 -- know what you are doing perfectly before trying it in a casino. Use simulators, read, practice. Don't give them your money by thinking you understand, you must really understand.
Suggestion 2 -- if you are having trouble understanding from the book you are reading, I can suggest another book you might consider reading... 8-)
--Mayor
Practice, practice .....
Posted by Victoria on 18-Feb-2005 13:25:40 (#12181)
Besides loads of practice before sitting at a real table, understanding the why of some of the things you should do helps.
High count and you have a max bet out and are looking at your 16 vs the dealers 9,10, or Ace. A situation that will happen much more often than any of us want.
Very good chance, hit or stay that you will loose.
You know that the remaining cards are heavy with 10's and depending upon the count you use, perhaps heavy with aces also, (hitting an ace on 16 does not mean very much unless the dealer is showing a 7, as 17 only wins when 16 wins)
So, the count has told you that if anyone is hitting a stiff, especially a high stiff, they are extremely likely to bust. It also has told you that the dealer is very likely to have a pat hand.
Ok... which one of you had that hotel room before me?
Posted by Dog Hand on 16-Feb-2005 23:24:07 (#12163)
Ladies and Gents,
Since I travel a lot to play BJ, I'm quite used to staying in strange hotel rooms. A few weeks ago I checked into a hotel 15 minutes away from the casino. As I was preparing to hit the sack early so I could return at 4:00 AM for the start of the graveyard shift, I noticed that the alarm for the room's clock was already set. Imagine my surprise when I checked the alarm time and found that it was already set for 3:45 AM!
So, which one of you set it??? ;-)
Dog Hand
hey...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 17-Feb-2005 15:06:57 (#12177)
Shouldn't you be worrying more about the sheets and the cleanliness of the bathroom floor, etc? :)
CCs can get in a big hurry and you never know what kind of mess they might have left for the unsuspecting. :)
Eliot made this week's Las Vegas Mercury...
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Feb-2005 20:55:01 (#12178)
... cover story "Gurus of Gambling! zg
--------------------
Thursday, February 17, 2005
Copyright © Las Vegas Mercury
Bringing down the house
'Advantage players' use guile and gumption to beat casinos at their own games
By Bob Shemeligian
Eliot Jacobson uses an odd metaphor when talking about the typical gambler. He compares the average casino customer with the Hispaniola islanders who were not able to see Christopher Columbus' ships when they arrived at the New World in 1492.
"The point is the islanders were familiar only with small boats and canoes. They had never seen anything like those large ships," Jacobson explains. "It was the shaman who knew how to think differently and could look out to sea and point out the ships."
Jacobson, a Santa Barbara, Calif., management consultant as well as a skilled card counter, compares "advantage players"--casino customers who have a strong chance of winning--with the 15th century shaman medicine man who knew how to think outside the box.
Author of The Blackjack Zone: Lessons at Winning at BlackJack and Life, Jacobson has highly specialized casino skills. He excels at one game. But, Jacobson explains, there are other advantage players who are much more open-minded when it comes to beating the house.
"Advantage players look for opportunities in a casino," Jacobson says. "Every game has the potential for opportunity. It might be that a roulette wheel is defective. A good advantage player will exploit these opportunities."
Consider, for example, Stanford Wong, one of the best advantage players who ever sat down at a 21 table. Author of Professional Blackjack, considered the card-counting Bible, Wong currently is writing a book about--craps?
...continued here - http://www.lasvegasmercury.com/index.html
A link directly to the article *LINK*
Posted by Seeker on 19-Feb-2005 04:38:37 (#12190)
This will save you one entire mouse-click. More important is that it should get you to the article even after it's aged off the Mercury's home page.
I used the home page link because...
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Feb-2005 20:03:12 (#12209)
.... I wanted everyone to see the 'Buddha Gambler' image on the cover. zg
bet spread
Posted by joeyboi on 18-Feb-2005 12:22:47 (#12180)
I have been bplaying BJ using hi-low count in AC since last march (04)when I was laid off. I play at low betting levels $25 table with a very small spead of 1-5. I just went over 1000 hours and have shown a profit of $18,600. My question is this. Since I play at all 6 and 8 deck games and have read numerous times that you need a larger spread than I have to beat them, Have I just been lucky or can you win with a smaller spread such as I am using (oviously winning less than with a larger spread) I like using a small spread because I attract no heat what=so-ever.
Are you wonging?
Posted by KennilworthKid on 18-Feb-2005 13:45:58 (#12182)
Yes, from the considerable reading I have done on the subject, your spread is too low to win with a play all approach in the long run...unless you are limiting your play to neutral and positive counts only...either by back counting to Wong-in on positive counts....or by starting from the top and exiting when the count drops below a certain True Count, usually -1, (a technique referred to as the White Rabbit)...or you are shuffle tracking...or you are hole carding...or you are ace-predicting...or you have an arrangement with the dealer...or you have just been lucky :-)! Which of the above is your story?
Hmmm, lets see 1-5 red, 8D, 1000hrs...
Posted by zengrifter on 18-Feb-2005 15:55:54 (#12185)
... and you won $18,000. Congradulations. Can we at least assume that you do not play neg-counts? zg
I think he's playing 1-5 GREEN ($25 tables). *NM*
Posted by kbp on 21-Feb-2005 16:41:27 (#12208)
bet spread
Posted by joeyboi on 22-Feb-2005 10:15:53 (#12214)
yes, I am playing at $25 tables. Base bet of $25 up to max bet of $125. I leave the table on negative count of -1 or so, unless very late in the shoe, then I just sit out.
thanks again
What else could go right? (Trip Report)
Posted by MrPill on 18-Feb-2005 14:54:13 (#12184)
Made a trip to one of the usual places recently. It is not the best game in the country by any means, but if you look around you can find decent penetration which makes it playable.
8D, DAS, RSA, DA2, S17
On this particular day I was able to find a Dealer cutting off only 1.5 decks (81% pen.). The table limits were such that I was able to spread 1-16 without having too much ROR based on my bankroll.
Ever have one of those days when the count is telling you to push it out and you do, only to get pounded hand after hand while everyone around you was making hand after hand? Sure, we all have, but this was not one of those days for me!
I never had to leave the table once because of a negative count during this whole session. It just got good from the start and then stayed there during the whole sessions. Most of it called for medium bets but some of it called for max bets too.
And talk about BJ's, at one point Dealer asked me if I was getting embarrassed because I was getting so many in one particular shoe (ya, right!). And during most of them I had 9 to 16 units on the felt.
Then came the relief dealer, and I'm thinking great here goes my 81% pen for 20 minutes. When the new dealer prepares the next shoe he proceeds to cut off only one deck! (87% - Yahoo!) Let the party continue!
After only 1 hour and 5 minutes I'm walking away up 194 units!
At casino number two I ended up playing only 55 minutes and was able to make a modest win of 14 units.
These are they days that we play for!
Good Cards All,
Pill
It just goes to show that...
Posted by zengrifter on 18-Feb-2005 18:58:44 (#12188)
... you should check your horoscope and biorythms more often to plan your trip dates accordingly. zg
A Sign?
Posted by MrPill on 19-Feb-2005 05:06:21 (#12191)
Grift,
I usually don't believe in such things but sometimes things happen that really make you wonder.
While playing the second session above I knew I was up somewhere over $200 and it was lunch time so I decided to leave. Turned out that I was actually up 14.8 units ($15 units) or $222.
My son that passed away last fall, had a birthday that was 2/22. Was someone sitting beside me this morning enjoying our time together?
Next week will be a tough week for sure.
Peace,
Pill
Shuffle Master Advantage Play
Posted by zengrifter on 18-Feb-2005 18:57:13 (#12187)
The Random Ejection Shufflemaster machines on rare occaission will snag a card sideways and hold it in the machine visibly while the rest of the pack is withdrawn.
When I find the above situation I throw out multiple max|max bets and then if I don't like the hands I say "Hey what's that!?" and go for a dead hand. zg
BJF Surveillance Report Card
Posted by zengrifter on 18-Feb-2005 20:47:37 (#12189)
http://blackjackforumonline.com/content/reportcard.htm
good list/didn't mention mindplay though. *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 19-Feb-2005 21:35:41 (#12192)
EXCELLENT INFO!.....Any chance?...
Posted by phantom007 on 20-Feb-2005 09:18:54 (#12194)
Any chance this could be a Monthly post? Possibly for "Subscribers"?
Maybe "CC.com Red-Chip Board"???
I do disagree with one of your "A" ratings......took the "Scar-Bust" 6 consecutive hours to catch on to my "Excellent" play, and ONLY then because at hour 5, I argued with PC about my comps!
It went something like this:
(1) phantom007: "Can I get a Steakhouse comp?".
(2) PC: "Sir, your play only justifies a buffet or coffee-shop."
(3) phantom007: "Bitch, Whine, check it again".
(4) PC and not one, but TWO suits are punching keyboard and "looking into my
play History", revealing 3 years of HEAVY Comps and NO Losing trips.
(5) TAP!
Of course, what idiot while winning $1k, would argue over comps., play for 6 hours straight, keep playing when the "Heat is obviously turned up", etc.
ANSWER:
phantom007.
What about MP21?
Posted by V-man on 22-Feb-2005 20:36:05 (#12220)
How can Flamingo receives a "C" when they had MP21 installed awhile ago?
Otherwise fun to read. Great post.
Flamingo and mindplay
Posted by blueeyedsamurai on 27-Feb-2005 15:54:56 (#12253)
Maybe the Flamingo got a 'c' because your average counter will not play mindplay so your average counter will not be caught by mindplay. Also with mindplay the eye may be slack in spotting counters on other tables.
What does "CVI" mean? *NM*
Posted by Dog Hand on 23-Feb-2005 00:09:28 (#12221)
CVI
Posted by trixie on 28-Feb-2005 13:38:03 (#12258)
Does CVI stand for Computer Video Identification?
Vegas trip report (Warning: wordy)
Posted by ZOD on 20-Feb-2005 11:00:39 (#12195)
In case anyone was wondering, that giant sucking sound you heard in 2004 was the Las Vegas monoliths whooshing my bankroll into their vaults. But now we have a new year, so I ventured back to the sites of my recent tortures to give it another whirl.
Since my normal game is 6D, I decided to play all shoe games. And since I was babysitting a couple of LV first timers, I stuck to the strip so that they could see all the things they'd been seeing on TV.
We broke the ice at Mandalay Bay, with a couple of wong ins. Win, lose, win for a half hour of table time. Then treated the guys to lunch at HOB. Tasty. Result: +4 units.
After they checked out Luxor and NYNY, we ended up at Monte Carlo where they could play $5 tables with a decent game. I let them drink to their hearts content for 2 hours while the pit boss and I creatively coached their play. One interesting play of note: One of my friends split 4s four times and drew two 4s on each hand except the last. That's six 4s in a row. The nice dealer proceeded to bust prompting the player wave. The pit boss commented that we should press our bets while the cards were running good. With his blessing and the count now high, I slid out a max bet and...blackjack! I gave the pit boss a high-five for that one. When the shoe ended, we adjourned to the brewpub for some celebrating on our good fortune. Result: +22 units.
After getting cleaned up, we headed to AJ's at the Hard Rock for dinner. The filet mignon was superb, the lobster bisque had quite a bite and the informal anything goes atmosphere made for a very enjoyable evening. Afterwards, we headed to a local friend's place for a little home poker action.
The next morning found me overruled and the three of us back at Monte Carlo. The cards were not quite as friendly this time and I was fortunate for the last third of the last shoe that caught me back up for the session. Result: 0 units.
The guys headed for the craps table at NYNY and I headed across the street to MGM. Settling in at a S17 game, I lost big early, only to once again catch back up right before I was commandeered to spring for lunch. I'd recommend washing down the Fire Roasted pork at Gonzales inside NYNY with a couple of cranberry margaritas. Result: +4 units.
The rest of the day was spent sightseeing, talking smack then climbing the indoor rock wall at GameWorks (it's harder than it looks to ring that damn bell) and playing poker. Dinner at Portofino's was excellent and finished off by a round of Louis XIII. A little clubbing turned into a foray to Cheetahs. At least one of my friends left minus his mortgage but with a huge smile on his face. Oh well, you only live once.
The next day was a golfing outing for my buddies and blackjack time for me. I began at Bellagio. It's amazing how different the penetrations can be, even with the shoe notch for the cut card. The dealer was friendly and I had the table to myself for an hour. Result: +12 units.
Back to MGM where the dealer was not as friendly and the pit personnel seemed to be all business, practically giving me the third degree every time I raised my bet. After a half hour of this and having bagged a win, I headed out again. Result: +10 units.
I stopped back at Monte Carlo to cash in some chips and was waved down by the pit boss from two days before. We struck up a conversation and I ended up sitting down at an empty table. I played four or five shoes never seeing a high count and never increasing my bet. But I won and won. The pit boss seemed to watch me pretty closely, and then offered comp after comp. He wanted to make sure that my friends and I would stay there on our next trip. Maybe we will. Result: +28 units.
Headed down the strip stopping here and there to check conditions. Things looked good at Caesar's but every S17 table $50 or less was full. I'm wondering what Ceasar's/Harrahs will look like six months from now. Played a couple of coupons at IP. Games were bad, but the place was full and there seemed to be a younger, more energetic crowd than I've seen before. Stopped by Harrah's (I know, I know). I found a few playable games at Mirage with only one or two players and parked there for a while. It was the same all business attitude just like MGM. Up and down, but again finished positive. Result: +3 units.
I met up with another friend who had driven in from CA and we checked out the Palms and then headed downtown to Binion's for a little poker. The day turned to night and I got out of there in time to catch up with our original group for a farewell lunch at the Pink Taco at Hard Rock on our way to the airport.
This particular trip was more about a vacation and less about grinding away the hours at the tables. Even so, having no losing sessions was great and only makes me want to go back in a couple of months to get more of my money back. Hopefully, the variance gods will continue their little dance and the chips will keep flowing in the right direction.
Best...
ZOD
sounds sad
Posted by eyesfor21 on 20-Feb-2005 11:12:18 (#12197)
Sounds sad,you may have used tiny spreads, for such small wins?
Why only go all the way to Vegas and only play 6 deck?
Usually no heat at all with six deck especially if you are
only playing $5 dollar bets or$20, did you actually expect heat?
I guess you all had some nice food though, and fun fun fun.
Not so sad
Posted by ZOD on 20-Feb-2005 11:39:30 (#12198)
Not so sad. I'm more comfortable playing 6D, and modest wins are still wins. My unit is such that I did pocket a good bit of cash even after paying for everyone's "fun stuff". I'd take a Vegas trip like this every time.
Best...
ZOD
yeah
Posted by eyesfor21 on 20-Feb-2005 12:03:51 (#12199)
sometimes the small little wins are NICE!
Usually if travel is involved I LIKE TO GO of it though.
blackjack zone review..
Posted by eyesfor21 on 20-Feb-2005 11:09:01 (#12196)
THE BLACKJACK ZONE
By Noah Isaacs
Noah Isaacs is the pen name for a long time professional blackjack player who recently retired from advantage play and is a guest reviewer this month. He is enjoying the fruits of over 15 successful years at the tables, which give him time for casual reading, travel, and fun. He has seen the game evolve and deteriorate in several cycles, but views the current cycle as the most ominous.
Review of: The Blackjack Zone: Lessons in Winning at Blackjack and Life
Book Author: Eliot Jacobson
Review written by: Noah Isaacs, NoahIsaacs@hotmail.com
Date: 01/26/2005
Is there really anything new to be said about blackjack? The answer is yes. The game is constantly changing and the old worn blackjack manuals haven't kept up with the times. With shuffle machines, weird variations in the rules (like a payoff of 6-to-5 for a blackjack, what a rip-off!), and the new adult Vegas attitude, the games are getting harder to beat all the time. Add to this the onslaught of the "...stays in Vegas" marketing campaign and casinos are separating players from their money with more efficiency than McDonald's selling Big Macs. It's way past time for someone to come to the defense of the players. The first shot has been fired by Eliot Jacobson in his new book, "The Blackjack Zone."
The Blackjack Zone sounds like some bizarre road sign you might see traveling up I-15, with tables set up along the roadside instead of orange cones. The author uses the title as a "Twilight Zone"-esque metaphor: the same hand happens over and over so we had better get it right. By showing how much the gambler stands to lose over his lifetime when he violates basic play, Jacobson tries to motivate the reader to learn something. Good luck! People just want to be entertained; they don't care if they lose. They think losing is fun. Good grief, we've got a bunch of Charlie Browns parading through our casinos. Jacobson is right. You need a verbal hammer to hit today's gambler square on the head - winning is possible.
It might work, it might not, but the "Blackjack Zone" is one of the most innovative approaches to teaching blackjack to come along in a long time. One way Jacobson makes it unique is by bringing in topics that seem unrelated to blackjack to make his points. He invokes baseball, Zen, pop-psychology, and his personal stories to keep the reader thinking about the issues. In what may be the strangest twist ever in a gambling book, Jacobson uses blackjack as a metaphor for "life lessons." But it works. There really is a connection between losing at the tables and making mistakes in love, work, money, education and other parts of life. Jacobson is the first to make the connection. He stares down the Las Vegas media blitz as he brings a welcome dose of reality back to gambling.
Jacobson is an academic but he doesn't write like one. He has a Ph.D. in mathematics and has been working in universities his whole life, so you know his book is not full of the same snake-oil-get-rich-quick-progressions-winning-is-easy crap that most authors try and sell. He also runs a popular blackjack website, www.cardcounter.com, and has appeared on radio and television, most recently in the National Geographic Channel program "Beating Vegas." For all his credentials (and maybe because he has been a teacher for so long) he writes in a way that is very easy to read and understand. The pages are not full of equations, tables, charts, and technical explanations. Instead, he knows who is reading the book and writes for his reader: the average gambler who is tired of losing and wants to know why and what he can do about it.
Jacobson covers a wide range of topics and has more than enough information to make a winner out of the reader who cares enough to really learn what's in this book. Some of the highlights include blackjack mythology, card counting, casino protocols and a long section at the end that delves into the world of the advantage player in a very personal way. I especially enjoyed two chapters towards the end of the book. One was written by his wife: "When Your Partner Counts Cards" and the other was an interview with a professional blackjack player: "Interview with a Bear."
There are times that the book doesn't work. The chapter that listed references and mini-reviews of books and then told me to read one of them should have been an appendix. Jacobson could then refer to it as needed. The chapter on "The True Cost of Making a Mistake" could have made its point without as much technical information. Jacobson overuses the name "Fred" as a character. At times I wished that "Wilma" or "Ethel" would make an appearance. These are minor blemishes in a highly polished and enjoyable read.
Jacobson focuses on today's player: overwhelmed by mass-media misinformation and casino ploys to skim his wallet. His easy-to-read style makes this book one of the best on my shelf for the beginning to intermediate player. It is certainly the best new book on blackjack to be written in a long time. Buy this book. More importantly, read this book!
Note: "The Blackjack Zone" can be purchased online right here at www.bjinsider.com. Click here for details.
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Copyright
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Feb-2005 14:04:19 (#12201)
I believe this article is from the "pay only" section of Henry Tamburin's site. I don't think it is appropriate to give it away, but I'll let it stand (until Henry writes to me and complains), if some of you promise to subscribe to bjinsider. It is a great newsletter; the best monthly on blackjack available today.
--Mayor
Humorous non-BJ story from a friend
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Feb-2005 14:01:15 (#12200)
A friend sent this to me, it had me laughing out loud...
---------------------------------------------------------
So the other day I get a desperate call from this guy who runs the local "casino nights" gathering for parties. Typically I deal craps to a crowd that is just there to have a good time, during a company party, wedding or social function. Chips are converted to raffle tickets etc. The guy who calls me asks if I wouldn't mind dealing Hold 'em for this party... he's really desperate he says. No problem, I tell him. While I've never dealt poker "officially" most of these functions are with people that don't know much about gambling and are just looking to have fun.
So I'm at the tournament site waiting for the games to start. I brush up on the dealer aspect, but I'm confident that I should be fine. It turns out that it's a tournament game, which is a little harder to deal. To make it more exciting Phil Hellmuth all of a sudden is towering over me wondering if he's sitting at my table. "Uhh hey Phil, do you want one of our complimentary cheat sheets which offers the hierarchy of hand strengths?" For those that do not know, Phil is a pretty much one of the top players in the world. He is pretty cool, but says he's starting at a different table.
I am little bit more nervous, wondering who else is going to showup at this little function. And then of course, the one and only Annie Duke shows up and sits down at my table. Again, for those that don't follow poker, she is regarded as pretty much the top female player in the world. She was the woman Ben Affleck employed as his personal instructor. Now, I've seen TV and while Annie is all smiles during interviews, that woman is just mean during games. I've never been a big fan of her. In 2004 during the WSOP she called over the floor for some trivial thing that a scrub guy did.
Crap, so I better really make sure I know what I'm doing. A few other players show up, they are not big time and are all pleased to be at the same table as Annie. One guy introduces himself to me and asks if I am a regular dealer. I tell him not at all, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. The guy thinks I'm funny but little Annie isn't one bit impressed with my standup routine. Just to make sure she hates me, I say something the lines of, "I know the game, I play all the time, 3 of a kind loses to a straight which loses to a flump." No smiles from her, so I elect to shut-up.
So I start out by dealing the first cards to see who gets the blind, not everyone at the table is present so I skip those that haven't showed up yet. Oops. Annie gets really mad and says I have to deal to those too. "Oh okay, I apologize, I didn't know." She rolls her eyes.
The game starts out, I think I'm doing a fabulous job. I tell people it's their turn and stuff. There are several beginners, so I'm starting to settle in and I correct them on some mistakes (folding when they could check). However after the first round, again good 'ol Annie yells, "you have to put the chips in the center" or something to that affect and grabs them all and stacks them angrily.
"Okay I'm sorry. I'll do it from now on." Then I set down the deck and start shuffling the other deck after the flop.
"DON'T PUT DOWN THE DECK!" I'm on fire now with my new best friend. Again I apologize, but I haven't even made it to 4th street and I've been yelled at like 3 times. "Where's the blackjack table" I wonder to myself.
The hand finishes up okay. And we start the second hand. I'm a bit rattled now as there's people taking pictures and a guy video taping too. I deal out the cards but miss the missing guy's hand as I'm shooting the cards around for the second time.
"You missed a guy!"
"Oh dang, my fault. Shoot, well it doesn't really matter since he's not here?"
"It does matter! Now all the cards are messed up."
"Oh, well they're still random..." This was not a good response.
"Look, I'll deal if you don't want to deal correctly!"
"Uhh okay, that's fine."
I get up and leave and go help out with the craps table. Phil Hellmuth had apparently observed a good portion of this and says something along the lines mocking Annie for making fun of the "poor dealer."
Anyway, that's my story. I was eliminated from the table in two hands by Annie without even getting cards.
I had a...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 21-Feb-2005 20:24:14 (#12210)
dealer on the strip who claims she worked at the H-Shoe for many years. She said she had dealt to all the big names during several WSOP's and described all the Celebrity players as phonies and a**holes, with the single exception of Howard Lederer.
I figured the celebs may just feel they need to be showy and overly agressive for the cameras. But bustin' some poor guys goulies in a no-cash game? Jeeeze, I guess she was right!
-Felix
Isn't Howard Lederer...
Posted by SammyBoy on 24-Feb-2005 15:45:20 (#12233)
The brother of Annie Duke?
Yes, He Is
Posted by SammyBoy on 24-Feb-2005 15:48:47 (#12234)
I just found this...
http://www.howardlederer.com/howard-lederer-biography.html
I guess that is why...
Posted by NorCalBJ on 27-Feb-2005 00:27:00 (#12247)
Daniel Negraneau once spoke of her as Annie Puke. I have heard many similar stories about that witch.
Insuring for less
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Feb-2005 01:55:37 (#12202)
Has anyone calculated whether insuring for less on marginal insurance counts makes sense, for the purpose of keeping this sidebet within the Kelly proportional criterion? Another benefit I see of doing this is that it's typical ploppy behavior, and thus cover. Thanks.
I tend to "Over-Insure".....
Posted by phantom007 on 21-Feb-2005 10:12:04 (#12206)
i.e, take Full Ins. at "Break-Even" Cts. AND Above.....Most would take it only at +EV.
Certainly, WE ALL NEED COVER.....however, I would fear that taking Ins. at Neg. EV's would ultimately overexpose your Bankroll. Even a $5. "joke bet" when your min. $50. bet is out, at TC of -10, would lose one roughly 4-5% of both bets, i.e., $4.75 per hand.
Further, True Ploppies either:
(A) Always take Ins., or
(B) Only take Ins. when they have GOOD Hands (19 or 20).....When the Dealer is even LESS likely to have a 10-card under their Ace.
If one is using Kelly to size bets, then I think that Ins. should be 1/2 of that amount.....if one is being watched, "Kelly-Ramped-Ins." could actually serve as a confirmation of suspiscions, rather than a distraction thereof.
Personally, I use the Ins. Bet to:
(1) Make extra $.
(2) Get "Heads-up action"...3 Dealer BJ's in a row, with that Pr#ck who has not taken Ins. for an hour, but now, has won his Ins. Bet 3-times-in-a-row....
drives 'em away in droves!
(3) Confuse Ploppies, and more "Heads-up action"....Insure a 2,3, then a few hands later, neither Insure Nor take Even Money for a BJ.....ploppies think I am an Idiot, thus, RUINING THEIR CARDS, thus "off to Roulette".
(4) Confuse PC's (when playing 2 hands).....they think I am stupid for taking Ins. on BOTH my 6,7 AND my BJ...."Sir, you could have Even Money on your BJ".
However, the PLAN has back-fired more than once.....Novice Player asks "When should I take Ins.?".....Dealer nods/points to me and says "ONLY WHEN HE DOES".
Hope this helps answer your post.
phantom007.
MathProf paper
Posted by alienated on 22-Feb-2005 05:43:30 (#12211)
Search "Risk-Averse insurance paper" on bj21 Green Chip Theory page.
Blackbelt In Blackjack
Posted by Anthony on 24-Feb-2005 09:47:27 (#12227)
Hello,
I've ben reading a book titled "Blackbelt In Blackjack", and it seems very knowledgeable. Has anyone else in this site read this book and/or have any opinion on it's contents?
It is one of the best.
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 24-Feb-2005 10:28:04 (#12228)
Blackbelt in Blackjack is one of the best books written on Blackjack. I assume you have the new, third edition (blue cover, available at Barnes & Noble). All of the editions are excellent. The author, Arnold Snyder is one of the most respected in the advantage blackjack community. For more than 20 years, Arnold published a quarterly blackjack journal that shared with its readers some of the greatest breakthroughs in the game. Much of that information is contained in the new edition of Blackbelt in Blackjack. For more information about Arnold Snyder, check out his website, www.blackjackforumonline.com.
where is the Mythology section,can't find? *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 24-Feb-2005 10:34:52 (#12229)
Where have all the mythology sections gone?
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Feb-2005 11:02:40 (#12230)
...long time passing...
The essays I wrote on mythology (and many other topics) were removed from this site around September of last year, as much of that material was being wrapped up for my book. If there is a dead link on this site, please let me know.
--Mayor
mythology
Posted by eyesfor21 on 24-Feb-2005 16:22:43 (#12235)
Mayor,
that was one of the best sections of this site, you should
consider putting in back(at least a partial list). I always promote
this site since I play ALOT,and hence it would only help the site and
YOUR book.
regards.
Re: books and fame
Posted by Sun Runner on 24-Feb-2005 11:38:17 (#12231)
> Blackbelt in Blackjack is one of the best books written on Blackjack.
Truer words were never spoken. While the poster is at it, he oughta pick up Blackjack Wisdom as he is able.
> The author, Arnold Snyder is one of the most respected in the advantage blackjack community.
Maybe; but he better get a grip. Fame is fleeting. What took 20 years to earn can be lost in 20 minutes.
Other Authors
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 24-Feb-2005 14:32:25 (#12232)
"Maybe; but he better get a grip. Fame is fleeting. What took 20 years to earn can be lost in 20 minutes."
That statement is not releveant to the initial post.
But I agree, Blackjack Wisdom is excellent as well. Any blackjack book by a respected author is good (Thorp, Revere, Snyder, Schlesinger, Wong, Andersen are all respected authors.) Blackjack Attack by Don Schlesinger is another excellent book that I highly recommend.:)
And I can't forget The Blackjack Zone, by our host at this site, Eliot Jacobson. It is an excellent work.
Re: authors
Posted by Sun Runner on 24-Feb-2005 17:29:25 (#12236)
>> "Maybe; but he better get a grip. Fame is fleeting. What took 20 years to earn can be lost in 20 minutes."
> That statement is not releveant to the initial post.
But it was relevant to a statement you made in the post I was responding to.
Anthony seems like a new guy. In your answer you made a statement of fact. I felt the desire to amplify or clarify it as I saw fit.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
Arnold has great knowledge.
Posted by Todd on 25-Feb-2005 13:26:51 (#12239)
If it wasn't for Arnold's teachings,I would not be the BJ player I am today. When Arnold speaks(or writes)people listen in confidence. Arnold tell's it like it is. He does not tell it like he thinks it is,which is the problem of many BJ authors who mimic BJ books. What do you mean by," He better get a grip,fame is falling,..20 years lost in 20 minutes,blah,blah...!? What book are you reading?
Controversy
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 25-Feb-2005 15:00:11 (#12240)
Sun Runner is referring to the ongoing controversy pertaining to Arnold's review of David McDowell's book, Blackjack Ace Prediction.
If you would like to read this information go to www.blackjackforumonline and www.advantageplayer.com
I would not like to see a discussion about this controversy on this message board. JMHO.
As far as the original question, I think we can all agree that the information contained within Blackbelt in Blackjack is top notch and should be read by all blackjack players starting out.
No quarrel here
Posted by Sun Runner on 25-Feb-2005 17:20:04 (#12242)
> As far as the original question, I think we can all agree that the
> information contained within Blackbelt in Blackjack is top notch and should
> be read by all blackjack players starting out.
Agree absolutely.
And Todd, I have three of Snyder's books; I would be hard pressed to part with any of them.
> Sun Runner is referring to the ongoing controversy pertaining to Arnold's
> review of David McDowell's book, Blackjack Ace Prediction.
Actually the 20 minute clock started ticking way before that, but as you say ...
> I would not like to see a discussion about this controversy on this message board.
Have a good weekend!
You have the best book in your hands
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 08-Mar-2005 01:28:52 (#12352)
BBIBJ is the most useful, practical and up-to-date (3rd, blue edition) treatise on the subject. You can use every bit of it and you may simply pick a count system that you are most comfortable with. I have played zen for 6 years after playing Uston and Revere before that.
Snyder gives you everything in his book. Then all you need is perhaps some more <u>basic</u> from some of the older books jsut for bakcground. Maybe Wong or Revere. Some Ian Anderson for cover pointers. Eliot Jacobson and Barry Meadow for lore to add color and texture to your game and the Grosjean to finish the work. You will be a blackjack masterpiece if you take it seriously.
Red Seven vs. Hi-Lo
Posted by BenFranklin on 25-Feb-2005 05:11:55 (#12238)
Was wondering if anybody knew which system had the higher SCORE for 4.0/6 S17 DAS...or any idea how I could go about finding that information without buying a simulator.
The results of a careful comparative simulation...
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Feb-2005 22:16:22 (#12243)
... can be found in Schlesinger's 'BJ Attack'... BUT for all intent and purpose in a real casino enviroment they, along with KO, are equal in power. zg
CVCX results...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 25-Feb-2005 22:25:07 (#12244)
CVCX gives hilo (full indices) an hourly win rate of $5.86, assuming a $3000 starting bankroll, spreading 1-20. Min bet is $2, max bet is $40. cSCORE is 17.68 for this game (terrible)
red 7 produces an hourly win rate of $5.85 and cSCORE of 16.47 (also terrible). CVCX gives the same betting unit.
The two are essentially equal, although the game is really not playable...
thanks...also...
Posted by BenFranklin on 27-Feb-2005 19:51:10 (#12255)
Thanks for your guys' help. I have BJ Attack but it's the 99 edition I beleieve and I could't find the results for that particular game. I realize the 4.0/6 game is pretty sad but it's the best multi-deck game I can find in my area... do you think I would be better off at the 2 deck game(assuming it had an acceptable penetration...I am not sure what it is as I have never played it) and if so what count would you reccomend using?
HILo
Posted by stainless steel rat on 28-Feb-2005 09:58:21 (#12257)
Others with more experience can give you a better answer. But I use HiLo myself, and I play mainly DD. HiLo works just fine there. As you shrink the number of decks, playing efficiency becomes more significant (those points where you depart from pure basic strategy and play differently based on the count).
For example, someone recently ran a sim on a very good SD game and showed that they could beat it flat-betting using a good L2 count. Just the BS departures are enough to beat the game. With HiLo that's not going to happen. With HiLo, you are forced to spread your bets a bit as HiLo is very good at telling you when to bet big, but not as good in telling you when to break with BS and play something different. So you have to use its strength and spread your bets more. Rest assured that you can do just as well with HiLo, assuming you can get a decent spread down on the table without getting tossed. For DD, 1-4 will do pretty well, 1-8 is better.
I have done five test sessions in the past few months, starting a trip with $1000 (if I lost it all, that test was considered a bust, if I doubled the BR, the test was concluded as a success.)
Amazingly all five tests were successful. On one test I doubled my BR in about 500 hands (about 5 hours give or take an hour or two) of playing. On another test It took 5000 hands, around 50 hours, and my $1000 dropped all the way to $35 (I was spreading $5 to $40, or $5 to 2x$25 if there were other players at the table). The count was high, I bet $35 rather than $40, and won, and by hand 3000 or so I was back to dead even. Another 2000 hands saw me double.
I have tried this twice so far with $500, using the same spread. Doubled once, busted once.
As you see, HiLo can be used to beat DD with no problems. I've thought about trying a L2 system, but I have practiced HiLo for so long, I can almost count blindfolded. Learning a new set of values for the cards would probably take quite a while to squeeze all the errors out. And a few errors in a L2 count could wreck all the advantage from going to the L2 count. My concern would be a moment of inattention and I could easily mix in a hand of HiLo counts, totally wrecking things. If you are one of "those" that can use multiple counting systems without trouble, then it is worth it. A friend of mine uses HO2 for SD/DD and HiLo for 6D. And we have played DD and 6D in the same playing session. I'm afraid my head would explode. However, for revenge, I do occasionally challenge him to a few drills on CVBJ, and I can absolutely smoke 'im on speed and accuracy, because I have counted hilo enough that converting to TC is just "automatic".
I think the moral of the above is that HiLo is "good enough" for SD and up, although if you find yourself with lots of good SD games available, a L2 count would be worthwhile if your head doesn't explode...
Use the available tools before changing. CVBJ for starters. When you can play and bet for an hour, and play about 600 hands in an hour on the simulator, and not have it complain about any bets or BS departures, you can be pretty sure you can survive in a casino maintaining the count and playing according to it.
Someone told me when I was just thinking about getting started in counting, "it is far better to use a simpler count and do it accurately, than to use a more complex system and screw it up on occasion."
BTW, while it probably isn't universally true, my HO2/HiLo friend simply can't do HO2 on a shoe. The numbers get unwieldy at times. I've had RC at +60 on a shoe, a L2 count could double that, and it gets (apparently) a bit harder to keep up. I personally don't like big negative counts anyway, for the same reason even using HiLo. But before the math gets too tiring, that's a good sign to "Wong out" anyway. :)
thanks rat *NM* *NM*
Posted by BenFranklin on 01-Mar-2005 04:21:00 (#12265)
tips for the newbie
Posted by Josh on 26-Feb-2005 01:06:08 (#12245)
im going to be turning 19 in 3 months and can't wait to put 2 yrs of practice to good use, but i was wondering if anyone had some good advice that no amount of practice or books could teach me
ps. if someone could tell me where to find the rules for a specific casino it would help alot.
Current Blackjack News *LINK*
Posted by LVBear584 on 26-Feb-2005 09:54:47 (#12246)
if someone could tell me where to find the rules for a specific casino it would help a lot.
Click the link below.
How do you deal with a tip hustler?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 27-Feb-2005 03:20:58 (#12249)
I'm in venue now. Never had this happen before, but I just had two dealers in a row strongly imply that a tip was called for, one more politely than the other. I was getting good speed and pen ($25 DD) so I didn't mind, but still this kind of thing looks like it could lead to trouble. What are some good procedures for dealing with this? Thanks in advance.
re:Tip Hustler
Posted by North Wind on 27-Feb-2005 10:34:08 (#12250)
Hustle him right back by asking for an early shuffle or deeper pen. Things
he can't possibly do. When he doesn't comply, he'll know there won't be
any tips. If he complains to the pit boss, you can mention you were being
hustled for tips. Either way, it gives you an out.
show me the burn card. *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 27-Feb-2005 13:37:56 (#12252)
For the special case
Posted by victoria on 27-Feb-2005 16:00:00 (#12254)
A little tip hustling is something I just ignore and I do tip but only when I think it is waranted.
When I think a dealer has gone to far, especially in a keep their own house, I never tip but as soon as he is tapped out I make sure he sees me put a tip out for his replacement. A little spiteful, but perhaps I need to politely send a message.
Dumb Dealer
Posted by Big Cowboy on 28-Feb-2005 15:03:36 (#12260)
Victoria, two things:
I am just amazed that people in the "entertainment" business (and I use that term loosely as I point to my rear) go about trying to piss off their customers. Secondly, I'm wondering what you'll do to him if the count ever gets to three.
Cowboy
Posted by Victoria on 01-Mar-2005 15:22:02 (#12273)
Have not thought about that but even though I live in soggy SoCal now, I am a Bronx girl, who grew up in a tough area with three older brothers, so I can at least sound a bit threatening easily. Anyway, I enjoyed saying it with the pit knowing he had tried shorting me even if it was an accident.
I once teamed up with a counter cowboy from Corpus Cristi on rodeo week in Vegas and we both made quite a bit of money. Still have my Stenson to fit in just in case I get back at that time.
Victoria
Multiple Answers....
Posted by phantom007 on 27-Feb-2005 10:49:47 (#12251)
Kind of depends on the situation. Some examples:
1. Several years ago, I was playing at LVC,heads-up, and was tipping Dealer every time I won more than 2 hands in a row, via a "Tip-Bet" on the next hand. The "game speed" quickly accelerated, and I realized that she was paying off some pushes and "multi-card 22's" (6D, face-up game), ESPECIALLY when her Tip-Bet was active. I did not like this, and was getting ready to leave, when a "herd" of drunk college students filled up ALL of the open seats, and suddenly this stopped.
2. In stores, where Dealers keep their own tips, presence/absence of a "Tip Bet" at the "Shuffle Point" in Pos./Neg. Counts will often cause "Another Round/Shuffle", of course, as appropriate! In these SWEET SITIUATIONS, Dealers can HUSTLE all they want....tips come when they are FULLY TRAINED!
3. At Harrah's in KC-MO "a while back" I went on THE LOSING STREAK FROM HELL! Most of my hands were 15's and 16's vs. Dealer 10-up....Bust, Bust, Bust. DD 6,5 vs.6-up...draw an Ace and watch the Dealer draw out 21. However, in addition to the usual story of 3 starving kids, wife's kidney transplant, etc., he was Polite, Courteous, etc., so, even while losing, I made multiple "Tip-Bets".....lost so many hands that quite simply "He felt sorry for me, and likely himself, i.e., lost tips". So not every hand, but about half, he started FLASHING ME HIS HOLE CARD!!! And we ain't talking an 18-Degree flash of "Paint vs. #'s".....we are talking a 45-Degree view of that "Queen of Diamonds" down below. Did not help.....every FLASH seemed to occur when his 20 was likely still going to beat my 19, even if I hit.
4. "WANT TO SEE MY P#SSY?", asked the female Dealer in Caruthersville, Mo., i.e. Casino ASS-TAR.
"Sure", replied me, "but what's the Deal?"
"Make a $5 bet for me, and if it wins, I show you my P#ssy!"
Made the bet, we both lost!
Next hand, I asked "Same Deal?"....."Certainly", she replied.
I won, she won, AND.......
SHE SHOWED ME A PICTURE OF HER CAT THAT WAS TAPED TO THE BACK OF HER NAME-BADGE!
I guess that if you are into cats, it was a cute P#SSY!
BUT TO REPLY TO YOUR POST:
(A) I generally tip-away about 1/3-1/2 of my "ADVANTAGE", and mostly for cover, but then also to reward good service.
(B) I pretty much just ignore the TRUE TIP HUSTLER's....my tipping style rewards those who are HELPFUL, Hustler or not.
phantom007.
Boss says shuffle
Posted by Virgin Counter on 04-Mar-2005 23:09:15 (#12296)
I was at the Lady Luck and got toke hustled. This dragon lady dealer with bad English got pissed at some of the hands I was hitting on some nice plus counts. The usual comments of "you boy's lucky tonight" and "you boys making lot of money" were thrown around as she fished for some tokeage. She finally got pissed and started shuffling when the count even got close to positive. Her line every time was "boss say shuffle, sorry boys." I guess I should have tipped her at some point, especially since she was tracking things apparently. I hate tipping toke hustlers, but then they do have some power to mess things up like this charmer did. The old Binions before they closed was brutal with the toke hustling jerks in there. Made it unbearable to even play there.
The truth
Posted by lowlimit on 17-Mar-2005 21:11:33 (#12491)
As a former dealer, I know that most joints do not tolerate their employees hustling tokes. I'd mention something to a boss on the way out, probably, and not tip a thing. I also know that dealers cannot keep a count while dealing, it is just too hard to count and continuously add up everyone's hands. Even heads up, you just go to fast. Plus, most do not know how to or care about counting.
Safe Haven for Bank Roll
Posted by SonOfBeve on 28-Feb-2005 17:32:24 (#12261)
I got a savings account that pays 2.6% interest. Its internet based so you need a checking account from another bank to transfer money into your savings. It's a pretty good deal though, I know many of you would like to earn some interest on your cash while being able to access it whenever. You also get $25 as a signing bonus, just cant withdrawal for 30 days.
If you want more info, email me at sonofbeve@yahoo.com and I'll refer you so you can get the $25 bonus.
good idea
Posted by skrabo on 28-Feb-2005 19:50:41 (#12263)
INGDirect.com is good, you get $10 for referring all those newcomers, but Emigrant-Direct.com is offering 3% APY. I opened my ING a month ago, got the $25 for opening and promptly liquidated it to transfer to the higher APY. Just a suggestion.
Will do, thanks (NM) *NM*
Posted by SonOfBeve on 01-Mar-2005 07:27:25 (#12266)
The Blackjack Zone now available at Amazon.com
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Feb-2005 18:00:49 (#12262)
Here you go...
If you've been waiting to buy it ... well, just buy it already!!!
--Mayor
Absolutely NONE of Anyone's Business.....
Posted by phantom007 on 01-Mar-2005 09:46:19 (#12268)
but I will ask anyhow.
I am reading copy #19, with #18 wrapped in Saran Wrap, and placed in my Safety Deposit Box, along with my 14 lb. box of 1968-72 baseball cards, contracts, insurance stuff, and a whole bunch of Travelers' Checques (wonder what they are for?.....of course, "Checques Play!").
Anyhow, your book should join the MUST READ LIST for ALL aspiring BJ Players....Wong, Thorp, Schlesinger, Snyder, Griffin, and now, Jacobson!
Great that you are on Amazon.com! I personally hope that you make lots of $$$!
Questions:
(1) Excluding time, sweat, and research, what, if any, was your EXPENSE to get published?
(2) What is YOUR +EV per Unit sold?
(3) Is YOUR +EV higher if tBJZ is purchased at CC.com vs. bj.21 vs. Amazon?
Just curious as to your info.
phantom007.
You are too kind!
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Mar-2005 10:34:38 (#12269)
>Great that you are on Amazon.com! I personally hope that you make lots of $$$!
Me too, but let me tell you, there just isn't much money to be made by writing books like this. I am trying to get mass market, Barnes & Nobel is on track. That may get me up to the high 6 figures in profit (remember where to put the decimal point!).
If I haven't said this before (but I know I've said it many times), most people don't write books to make money. But they can't make any money without writing a book. That's known as the "credibility gap." After you've written a book, you suddenly get to do things like speak in front of large audiences for a premium price. There are many other perks, but you get the drift. There are companies (like www.eghostwriter.com) that will write you a book just so you can get out there and start speaking and making the real money. Along with educating the ploppies and making a few $$$, this was my intention.
Questions:
>(1) Excluding time, sweat, and research, what, if any, was your EXPENSE to get published?
Excluding time, sweat, and research??!!! Just pay me minimum wage for those hours and I'd be rich! As for my tangiable expenses... More than $1k. A lot less than $10k.
> What is YOUR +EV per Unit sold?
When the dust settles...
On a retail sale through this site, I make about $8 / copy.
On a wholesale sale to a retail bj site, I make about $3 / copy.
On a wholesale sale to amazon.com (and the like), I make about $2 / copy.
(3) Is YOUR +EV higher if tBJZ is purchased at CC.com vs. bj.21 vs. Amazon?
Highest EV is to purchase from this site directly. bj21 or any of the other bj web sites is second. Any commercial site or location (like Amazon) is a distant third.
Thanks again for your kind words about TBJZ.
--Mayor
promotion
Posted by eyesfor21 on 01-Mar-2005 13:11:17 (#12271)
tv IS THE BIG DADDY>
Inside edition
extra
etc..
would be great..
what about your neighbor Oprah.
playing perfect BS in negative counts
Posted by BenFranklin on 01-Mar-2005 04:19:14 (#12264)
From what I have learned so far it seems that you should always play perfect BS unless the count signifies a departure...so does this mean you should always double 9's,10's and 11's when you are suposed to even when the count is negative? This makes no sense to me. Whenever I am in a negative count I occasinonally double down ...sometimes I win and sometimes I lose but it seems to me that I would lose alot more if I followed perfect BS during negative counts.
I feel the same way....
Posted by Anthony on 01-Mar-2005 16:35:31 (#12274)
In response to the aboves message. I don't see how it's bennifical to double down when the count is negative. For example it's single deck and the counts minus -7. Your looking into a 4 and holding a 7-4. Now the counts -5. Chances are that your going to get a low card and not make a standing hand. Plus, when the dealer flips his hole card, and let's assum it's a ten, now it's back to a -6. Here comes that 4,5,6,7 that makes it's a 18 19 20 or 21. Or combination of 2 plus a 3-6. All plus count cards. Not to mention that if you hit your hand get a low card without making a standing hand, hit again, a better chance of making a standing hand. I'm no expert and really love learning this game and making money (in the long run). What's the right answer?
Anthony
There are negative indices that will solve the problem for you
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 01-Mar-2005 19:56:29 (#12276)
Depends on how negative the count, and what the situation is.
If you want, you can learn all of the negative count indices for split and double down. They won't increase your win rate or advantage very much, but they will help reduce swings slightly and add some variation to your play that might make you look like a sub- Basic Strategy player. For plays like DD 11 vs. 6, the count has to be very, very, very low to make it not profitable to double because the odds are so heavily in your favor. But BS plays like DD 9 vs. 3 and DD 10 vs. 9, and a few of the split plays have negative indices rather close to zero so they might be worth learning if you are fine tuning your game (i.e., after you have mastered the more important parts of your game) Learning all of the surrender indices also have the effect of lessening your swings slightly.
If your spread is big enough, it won't bother you so much to put out an extra unit on a low count when BS calls for it. Save your fear and loathing for splitting and doubling your big bets! (But you still have to do it!)
thanks monkey...
Posted by BenFranklin on 02-Mar-2005 01:54:17 (#12278)
could you reccomend a book or site where I could learn these negative indicies?
The best way...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Mar-2005 10:21:59 (#12280)
... is to get the software (QFIT is very popular) and generate them for yourself. Some books have errors. The software is an excellent investment, it allows you to tune the game for your exact conditions of play and see what effect any kind of change has on your advantage.
Waaaah!!!!
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 08-Mar-2005 11:43:59 (#12357)
I'm new to the board. I expected a little bit higher level of discourse. Maybe posts like this should go on a "beginner's board".
Of course there are negative index numbers. Most shoe players just wong out of extreme negative counts. Unless you are an idiot savant or just a natural mathemetician or memorization expert, you don't need the negative indexes unless you're playing <u>single deck</u>. Why play a negative shoe????
If you don't want to learn negative index numbers, consider this: In your example you have a 7-4 in a neg 7 TC and you are afraid to double because you assume the dealer has a ten????? Stick to the science or go back to voodoo. Isn't the dealer just as likely to have a stiff under as you are to draw one?
It's all about the math . Put your energy into learning your count and forget all this other speculation. Unless, you're at the table. Then talk about it loudly!
On "the radio" again...
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Mar-2005 10:39:43 (#12270)
I'll be on "the radio" this Thursday, 6PM PST --
http://www.talkradiolasvegas.com with Charlie Bass
I will be asleep then.......
Posted by phantom007 on 02-Mar-2005 21:49:12 (#12285)
Working night shift this week, CST.
Any chance of "streaming" this interview on CC.com?
ph.007.
A direct link... listen now!
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Mar-2005 13:06:02 (#12322)
http://www.talkradiolasvegas.com/radio/shows/333/shows/Interviews/EliotJacobson_030105.mp3
Nothing about 6:5???? *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 07-Mar-2005 22:48:09 (#12345)
I'll get better at it...
Posted by Eliot Jacobson on 08-Mar-2005 12:32:09 (#12358)
I forgot several things... I even had notes to make sure I remembered...
Hey, at least I remembered the Host's name!
Advice needed on BANK ROLL
Posted by Anthony on 01-Mar-2005 15:06:55 (#12272)
To whom it may concern.
Me and my cousin have been studying the game of single deck 21. We count the 3-6's versus 10's. It's amazing how well it works and how much better a player you become just by following some simple rules and spreads. We've come a long way in the game of 21. In the begginning we made the mistakes of betting too much because the count was high, and it's taken some time and some losses that we've eventually learned about money managment. Eventhough counting cards in theory is easy, but it takes a lot of practice and hours at the table learning everyday we play. We live in the town where you can get the mash potatos and gravy. i.e. single deck 21-not 6-5 and not sf 21. Real single deck 21.
My question is, and I believe it's right (the books) because I really believe in the books I read. Blackbelt in Blackjack. However, they talk of having a bankroll of 2000 dollars to win 20 bucks? I don't understand. We may go with 500 and win most of the time; however, it may only be 50-200. We don't go for the throat because of the houses we play at.
Basically, if you don't have at least 2,500 or more. We shouldn't even bother playing? It seems like you have to be rich just to play?
P.s. We play 3-5 minimums
Bankroll requirements
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 01-Mar-2005 17:54:05 (#12275)
When the books say you need a very large bankroll, they are primarily talking about a bankroll that is not replenishable. If your only source of income was blackjack then those very high bankroll requirements are exactly what is necessary to withstand the bumps in the road. If you and your cousin have jobs, and can add money to your bankroll as needed, then the simple formulas in the books don't really pertain to your situation. If you go broke, you can just take some time off until you have the money again.
Not to say that you don't need a large bankroll to play blackjack, just you don't need a lifetime bank if you are not playing full time.
Betting TOO MUCH when the Count is HIGH???
Posted by phantom007 on 02-Mar-2005 21:45:42 (#12284)
In your post you stated something to the effect of "overcoming the problem of betting too much when the count is HIGH"......providing your B/R and Casino allows same, this bet should be TABLE MAX.
Casino Veritie' software tells me that I need #1440 UNITS to play "my" game at "my" spread, and to have less than a 1% chance of going broke BEFORE I double my money.
Bryce Carlson, in Blackjack for Blood, calculates that one should have available #125 MAX-Bets to accomplish the same goal.
Sounds like you and your "cousin" have a sweet deal (no pun directly intended) close to home. I would suggest that you "low-spread" this SD opportunity, like 2;1 and less......learn as many of the Indicies as you can, both Pos. and Neg., and slowly Grind, Grind, Grind.
Hope this info. helps.
phantom007.
Re; Phantom
Posted by Anthony on 03-Mar-2005 10:33:49 (#12287)
If I'm sitting at the table and it's SD and the counts plus six and I have $500.00 in front of me and the max bet is 200. Am I suppose to bet almost half of my bankroll? I've done that before and after I lost 19-20, it's back to the grind. Were you talking about a spread of 2-1? How can you win money with that? We generally go from 1-4 units. I'm going to play today and when the counts high lets see what happens!!!
Take it Easy
betting...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 03-Mar-2005 11:14:17 (#12288)
No you should not bet 1/2 your bankroll. If you have a program like CVBJ, it will let you calculate your ROR for a particular bankroll size... Or if you have CVCX you can open a canned sim and set your bankroll and betting scheme and see what your ROR is for that scheme. The general idea is to bet .75 * your advantage * your bankroll, where your advantage is calculated in the usual way. Say for a 6d shoe, you start at -.5, and at a TC of +4, your rough advantage is 1.5%. .75 * .015 * bankroll is the safe amount to bet. If you bet less, your win rate suffers. If you bet more, your win rate goes up but so does your risk of going bust before you double your BR...
hope that helps. If you want to post a specific bankroll amount, a particular counting scheme, and particular game rules, I can give you the CVCX "optimal bet per TC" results...
Blackbelt in blackjack
Posted by Canuck on 03-Mar-2005 13:15:04 (#12289)
this book I just finished reading it had a section on single deck and playing it out with a spread of 1 to 2 on a full table where you get 2 rounds then a shuffle. I recommend getting the book.
yep
Posted by stainless steel rat on 03-Mar-2005 22:52:07 (#12290)
Also BJA (I have 2, BJA3 is out.) There are others. You can even find some good bettng info in "the gamemasteronlne.com blackjack school"...
PRESUMPTIONS......
Posted by phantom007 on 04-Mar-2005 09:44:12 (#12291)
Would presume that $500. is NOT your Total B/R. If so, spread 5-10, and expect a circa. 25% ROR, and then only if you are a VERY GOOD CC!
Otherwise, spreading 2:1 on SD, 4:1 on DD, and 6:1 on 6D, you will win 1-2 Max. Bets per Hour as a long-term average, and again, if you are very good. Subtract from this tips (You better if this a local store that you frequent!),and any/all other expenses that you may have.
You indicated that the store you shop in has a Table Max. of $200. I suspect that anything above $50. is going to be noticed, and quite possibly, anything "NOT RED". For example, a $20.-$40. spread should earn one $40./hour after expenses, plus free stuff, and if you wish, tax-free (GRIN!).
Not a bad Part-time job!
And certainly, at a JUICY local store, one would never want to do ANYTHING that would keep one from "FEEDING AT THE TROUGH". Wide spreads will sooner-or-later put you on a diet.
phantom007.
Don't get your hopes up
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 04-Mar-2005 10:30:04 (#12292)
"For example, a $20.-$40. spread should earn one $40./hour after expenses"
-Phantom007
This is not correct. A spread of 1:2 on single deck with will not win two units an hour. Even using a level two count like AOII and all the indicies would be hard pressed to achieve numbers like that and I don't think our poster is that competent a counter. A 1:2 spread with a system like hi-lo and about 30 indicies would probably earn 1/4 to 3/4 of a unit an hour ($5-$15). This is assuming good penetration and only a couple other players max.
Maybe SSR could run some quick numbers, but I think phantom is way off. If only it were that easy.
your wish is my command. :)
Posted by stainless steel rat on 04-Mar-2005 10:45:54 (#12293)
I just used a canned Sim Norm had supplied, hilo, with the I18/F4 indices only. For a SD game using RO7 (favorable) with one player, you should get 6 rounds at about67% penetration (average number)
I also assumed S17.
HiLo will actually barely beat this particularly good pen game with flat-betting. Betting a unit of $5 would win $1.46 per hour. :) spreading 1-2 increases this to $5.92 per hour and 1-4 produces $13.65 per hour... Of course it is more likely that bigger units would be used at such small spreads.
this game is _way_ sensitive to penetration. RO6/RO7 is not uncommon, but then again I have seen SD games with a cut card that is positioned by a slot in the discard tray (50% is not uncommon) as well as a cut card positioned by the whim of the dealer...
That was fast SSR
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 04-Mar-2005 10:56:43 (#12294)
Those numbers are about what I expected. A $5 to $10 spread yields $5.92 an hour. This is equivalent to spreading $20 to $40 and earning $23.68 an hour. This is a little better than I mentioned in the earlier post. But I have never seen S17 single deck and I'm not sure if the sim allowed surrender (I have never seen SD with surrender either). SSR mentioned that the indicies played included the Fab 4. But this does give you an idea of what you are up against. Bear in mind if your bankroll is only $500 you should be playing a much smaller unit to avoid losing the entire stake.
additions
Posted by stainless steel rat on 04-Mar-2005 20:35:40 (#12295)
I did not include surrender. But I also was not sure about the double rule to use either. i.e. double any 2, double 10-11, or whatever. The canned sim probably has DA2 which might not be correct... I always include F4 since I use them. Of course, many SD/DD games don't have LS, so including them in the sim produces exactly nothing for the games without LS.
I was pretty impressed that HiLo would win anything at all flat-betting. Pretty surprised in fact.
If you have specifics, I can run a specific sim easy enough. Norm made it so damned easy to do, all it takes is computer time..
Here is an interesting experiment I have been doing for a few months.
I first started with a trip BR of $1000, and played DD almost exclusively. I played until I busted out or doubled, at which time I would reset to $1000 and start again. I played 5 of these trials, spreading either $5-$40 heads up, or $5-2x$25 with others at the table, and amazingly I doubled the bank each time. I doubled in 500 rounds once, and one trial took 5000 rounds (hands) to double, and on that trial I actually reached a remaining BR of $35, on a big count. My bet should have been $40, but all I had was $35. I won, and was amazed that I climbed back to even and doubled. After 3000 rounds I was dead even, having played about 30 hours for zero profit.
I then started at $500 rather than $1000, spreading the same. I have now completed three of these trials, and have doubled twice and busted out once. Not enough real data yet to draw any conclusions... It does seem like every trial sees a quick drop in BR, followed by a fight back to even and upward after that...
So $5 to $40 is probably playable with $500, knowing that there is definitely a ROR to deal with...
More as I continue this. Much of this has been in 2-3-4 hour spurts but I'm going to hopefully have a long weekend in a few weeks on the MS coast. If things work out... It's fun to piss my brother off doing this while he and his wife play all the carnival games (3-card, carib stud, let it ride, you-name-it) and lose their shirts. And they keep telling me "you should play something besides BJ." I always answer "Why don't I just go flush a few hundred bucks down the toilet and save the travel time and expenses?"
:)
Risk-of-ruin for the employed
Posted by Auotmatic Monkey on 04-Mar-2005 23:41:35 (#12298)
The Kelly Criterion and ROR for a fixed initial bankroll is pretty straightforward, but how does one compensate for being an employed person who always has money coming in and will never be "ruined", even when leaving the casino with empty pockets?
Sitting and playing for a lower win rate than one makes working can become very tedious. Is there any formula to include the amount of money one is willing to add on a regular basis from an outside source when deciding on betting unit sizing?
easy
Posted by stainless steel rat on 05-Mar-2005 09:41:04 (#12300)
Your first question is easy to answer. :) You have a 0% ROR because you essentially have a "bottomless pit" for a bankroll. That's how I play in fact. I decide on what I am willing to risk for a weekend trip to the coast, or for (say) our yearly trek to Vegas next summer. All I try to do is figure out the ROR for my "trip bankroll" to plan my "betting level" as there is little point taking $500 for a weekend and plopping down at a $100 min table. Chances are good that will be a very short session and the rest of the trip will be a non-gambling experience. :)
Someone asked that kind of question on rge21 or ap.com. The answer was not precisely calculated. But one suggestion went like this:
If you can add some dollar amount to your BR each month, let's say $500 just to have a figure. Then you could easily play as if you have a $6000 BR, and set your betting level accordingly. Mentally thinking that $500 is your "session BR" (implying one session per month if you go bust the first month). But you will win some sessions. And each time you win, your ROR drops since you have your original BR, plus your recent winnings, plus your "future BR additions" yet to be folded in.
My playing is more for fun, although I certainly take winning seriously. I generally just take $x.xx with me, enough to support my typical $5-$50 level spread for DD games. And a winning session or two might find me at a $25-$100 SD/DD game the next day. Experience has taught me that if I take $500 per day, I'm not going to go broke at that betting level every day. I might bust once or twice in a week, but then the winning sessions make that up...
Replenishable bankroll
Posted by CanKen on 05-Mar-2005 10:48:09 (#12301)
There is a good treatment of this topic in "Blackbelt in Blackjack".
Surveilance Dept. Comments...
Posted by zengrifter on 02-Mar-2005 05:48:35 (#12279)
...from the 'pros' - http://blackjackforumonline.com/content/prosreportcard.html
C.V.I.
Posted by trixie on 02-Mar-2005 13:32:09 (#12281)
What does C.V.I. mean?
anyone? *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 02-Mar-2005 20:39:46 (#12282)
Consensual V#ginal Intercourse?.... *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 02-Mar-2005 21:15:52 (#12283)
Casino Visual Identifications *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 03-Mar-2005 00:13:56 (#12286)
mayor/spam ideas...
Posted by eyesfor21 on 05-Mar-2005 21:03:03 (#12305)
Mayor,
who do you use to stop the spam. A club I belong to(non blackjack)
has a website and is being bombarded with spam any ideas?
thanks. Your website seems to have none.
Get decent software
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Mar-2005 18:26:55 (#12332)
You have to get software that allows control over posts. This one moderates people and posts (unless they specifically request a bypass which we are *always* happy to give).
My recommendation, use *this* software. It is cheap ($50 for unlimited use forever). It is highly customizable. It is powerful. It is spam/abuse resistant.
--Mayor
CA IJ Listings
Posted by Virgin Counter on 05-Mar-2005 00:19:04 (#12299)
This site lists all the IJ's (Injin Joints) in CA. Some feedback on BJ conditions in the Southern California area would be appreciated. Thanks.
http://www.500nations.com/California_Casinos.asp
They mostly all suck
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 06-Mar-2005 20:56:58 (#12315)
You're close enoutgh... go to Las Vegas.
If you are a novice counter, then use these indian joints to back count shoes to practice your counting ina casino enfironment. See if big cards start coming out on your high true counts.
Agua Caliente -- Rancho Mirage
Posted by Virgin Counter on 11-Mar-2005 23:05:00 (#12429)
I counted down 6 deckers there recently with a $10 min. My spread was 10-70. Pen went down to one deck on every shoe. No heat, friendly dealers, lots of ploppies, and nice atmosphere. Why the knock on the IJ's?
My First Back Off
Posted by SonOfBeve on 05-Mar-2005 13:31:36 (#12302)
I was backed off this morning from the El Cortez, the funny thing is that the pit boss told me that I "can not count cards anymore." As a floorman, my casino manager has stressed to me that when backing someone off, you must not say its because of counting because they can go to nevada gaming and take legal action. Anyone know my rights here?
You have no rights
Posted by LVBear584 on 05-Mar-2005 14:38:11 (#12304)
... you must not say its because of counting because they can go to Nevada Gaming and take legal action. Anyone know my rights here?
A casino is a private business that can refuse "service" to anyone it chooses, as long as it is not based on discrimination against legally protected classes, such as refusal based on race, gender, national origin, etc. In Nevada, skilled players are not a protected class. It is not a good idea for a casino employee to state a reason when backing off a patron simply because it can cause an argument and delay the backoff, which the casino usually wants to do quickly and quietly without other patrons knowing what is going on.
The El Cortez is particularly intolerant of any skilled play whatsoever, regardless of betting levels. It is kind of a training ground for new counters, and I'm sure some of the personnel there resent it. My first backoff, years ago, was there, too. I was backed off there several times thereafter, before I finally gave up on the place for good.
The Nevada Gaming Control Board is generally useless in protecting patron's rights, even in cases when there are rights to be protected. It is basically an arm of the casino industry. Forget about it.
confirmation
Posted by blueeyedsamurai on 06-Mar-2005 12:10:50 (#12308)
You have just confirmed to any Pit Critters from the El that you are a counter, you may want to go back and edit your post.
I don't see any identifying information, nor do I care about the EC. What am I missing? *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 06-Mar-2005 13:45:47 (#12310)
LVBear, I'm Guessing Those Remarks were not aimed at you. *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Mar-2005 17:36:29 (#12328)
"Black Like Me".....
Posted by phantom007 on 06-Mar-2005 21:15:49 (#12316)
Showing my age... but in the early '70's, while in High School, I read a book entitled "Black Like Me", author I cannot recall. Basically, the setting was the mid-60's....the author, a white guy, basically made himself "Black" via taking large doses of Melatonin (ahead of his time), plus getting his hair "fro-ed" etc.
The basic premise of the book was all of the prejudice that he received during travel through the Southern States....separate restrooms, drinking fountains, threats, attacks by Rednecks, etc. From memory, I seem to recall that "he got laid by a black chick", so +EV beyond Royalties.
Anyhow, MY OWN PREJUDICES:
(1) Oriental with an accent...Oriental Bettor...will spread wildly based on most any criteria EXCEPT the TC! Dealer scratched his nose...BET MAX. PC checked his watch (to see how much longer he would have to put up with these F#ckers)...BET MIN.
(2) Oriental without an accent, age 50+...probably got rich via a chain of Chinese restaurants...PROBABLY used to have an accent...likely an "Oriental Bettor".
(3) Oriental without accent, age <50....likely a CC, and an EXCELLENT on at that. If you get distracted and lose TC, just bet what he/she does. I personally am still trying to get over the fact that for about the last 10 years, I really thought that "WONG" was oriental!
(4) Jewish Male...similar to #3...won't be betting big $$$ unless he has the advantage.
(5) Jewish Female...similar to #1...bet opposite.
(6) Black Female..."since when do they let employees play table games".
(7) Black Male...
-----A. Speaks "ebonics"...same as #1.
-----B. Speaks "english"...same as #3.
(8) White Male, age 50-ish with tweed coat and tan slacks...Expert CC!...move now, this table is under Surveliance!
(9) White Female, any age....shouldn't you be at the Nickle slots?
Anyhow, these are just a few of my BJ PREJUDICES, albeit I admit, few, if any have any basis in FACT.
BUT TO THE POINT OF THIS POST....Would an Expert CC who happens to be for example, Black, Female, and Jewish, have any grounds for action if/when barred for CC'ing???
phantom007.
You are very funny Dr. Dirty!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Mar-2005 14:08:14 (#12324)
So which one are you, a Jewish female or a black male?
Hey! What about us light brown latinas???
Posted by Victoria on 07-Mar-2005 20:56:51 (#12337)
Or am I white, or is it black, hell I might not even be me.
Please ignore this post.
Post Your Photo & We'll Judge! ;-) *NM*
Posted by Dog Hand on 07-Mar-2005 23:14:53 (#12349)
If I posted one
Posted by Victoria on 08-Mar-2005 00:28:18 (#12350)
you know it would not be mine or would it?
Anyway, besides the stereotyping in the post we are talking about, I would say that the pit also stereotypes players. If you do not fit a counter stereotype your chance of longevity is greatly increased. It helps you with the pit but if someone decides upstairs should run a skill test on you, you still have problems. Also, if you use a card, lifetime win can either get you backedoff immediately or be a reason for a skill test. In my case short sessions should at worst keep them guessing if they are suspicious.
Victoria camera shy
What did you do?
Posted by Anthony on 06-Mar-2005 12:27:59 (#12309)
Out of curiosity, how much were you spreading your bets? How long did you play for? What did you play, single, double, or a shoe? How much were you up when they backed you off.
Thanks
Anthony
Details
Posted by SonOfBeve on 06-Mar-2005 18:25:41 (#12312)
My spread when I was caught was 2 units on 2 hands from the top of the deck and positive decks id move from two hands to one hand of 3 or 4 units. Before that, I was playing one hand at a table with 2 other players, spreading from 1 to 4 units, moving up one unit at a time. I bought in with $175, was down to $75 and then had a nice hour and finished with $225.
how to get backed off, part 1...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 06-Mar-2005 21:52:31 (#12317)
Some "lessons from the pits" learned by "yours truly"
1. Play too long. I found myself getting into "the BJ zone" (sorry Eliot) and almost getting into a trance. If you play long enough, someone will get interested, and before you know it they run a skills check with the eye. You might get backed off during the extended session, or more commonly the next time you play, particularly if you use a player's card so that they can ID you and attach a note for the next time they check your card.
2. Play too mechanically. Ramp the bet according to the count, drop it when the count drops, even though you just won two hands of $100. quadruple your bet after a loss because the count went up by 4. Etc. A blind deaf mute could figure out what you are doing.
3. Win. As you win you need to "rat-hole" when possible, that is remove a chip here and there (preferably a big denomination chip) to "hide" your EV from the dealer and pit. RFID is going to make this impossible, but for now not many pits use RFID chips. I've been backed off simply for winning, without even having a chance to spread my bets. I've been backed off for winning because it was pretty obvious I was winning. If you keep your chips neat, with different denominations in different stacks, all the better for the pit to keep up with your winning rate.
4. Never drink anything. I personally do not use alcohol products. But I do try to have a glass of tea or something close by, and get my wife to bring refills, so that it appears that I am not avoiding drinking, which is a signature of a serious counter.
5. Never talk. No joking. No bitching when the dealer pulls a 6-card 21 and you have two doubled hands on the table. No bitching when you double a 11 and get an A, because you know that hilo counts aces and 10s together and you know that you are going to get an A in high counts, on occasion, so it is expected and nothing to complain about.
6. Never toke. Excessive toking is just as bad as misplaying hands as you are losing EV, but a small toke here and there goes a long way toward avoiding that "counters never toke" profile.
7. Let everyone know when someone asks about a play that "the correct BS play is to split those 4's only against a 5 or 6. Make sure that the dealer and even more importantly, the pit, knows that you know basic strategy, that you have read several BJ books, and that you have BJ software that lets you sim hands to analyze the options. Particularly explain to others why they should split their 8's against a dealer's 10, because it is about limiting their losses, not winning that bad hand. Etc.
8. Make it clear you are a techno-phobe. That is you have computers everywhere, you practice BJ everywhere, in your car, on your PDA, when you are in the little boys room, but really play up your computer expertise.
9. Don't practice. Make sure that when you play, you have to focus intently on each card as it is played. Even better, move your lips as you count 3, 4, 3, 2, 3, 4, ... :)
10. If you win the last hand before a shuffle, always drop back to the min bet when the dealer shuffles, after all the RC/TC is now back to zero.
11. Make every obvious BS departure based on the count. If the TC is at +4, always split 10's against a 6. Never split 10's otherwise. The pit is too stupid to figure that out and it's a good play.
Once you have gotten good at the above, and you decide that you would like to play rather than getting kicked out of every casino you visit, you begin to learn the real ropes. Blending in. "hiding in plain sight" is often mentioned. But if you watch as you play, you can learn to "fly under the radar". The best bit of advice I ever got is to do just that. If I watch you play, I am pretty sure I can detect the fact that you are counting. I see this pretty often when I am playing and notice that someone at my table is also. I try to leave when I see that, because two stand out more than one. But the point is that if you don't attract attention, you will probably not be found out, until you start betting very big (black and beyond). But if you do something to attract attention, a replay of the tape by the eye folks will get you every time. So your job is to simply not be noticed....
Good luck. And note that +none+ of the above was intended to be insulting toward your play. Those are all things I did in my first year or two of counting, and which caused me to run afoul of a pit here and there until I realized what I was doing...
How you dress, how you look, how you act, how you talk, how you "blend in with the crowd" is the key. If you stand out, you'll eventually get noticed. That is the beginning of the end..
MY BIGGEST BONE HEAD REMARK:
Posted by Jaxel on 09-Mar-2005 14:32:07 (#12387)
As I was asked if I wanted to be rated, I was more paranoid about not using one, and I didn't have mine on me, so I replied "I don't have my card on me, but I know my card number (10 digits long)" I got the the strangest look from the pit critter. Dogh!
another way...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 09-Mar-2005 15:31:21 (#12388)
Sounds as bad as where a player walked up to the table, bet a bunch of money in a hand-held game, lost (had a 20) and stormed off. Dealer asked the guy by her, after he had collected all the cards, "what hand did she have that made her so mad to lose (dealer had pulled a multi-card 21)." Guy answered "-2".
:)
And of course there is the ultimate. You have a 20, the dealer pulls a 7-card 21 and you sit there with a big grin because the running count just went up by 5 and you push out your max bet. :)
Have never admitted this...
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 09-Mar-2005 18:06:36 (#12391)
but a long time ago I did say "five" two a dealer at the EC. I was answering a question requiring a non-numeric answer with the count. Only my spouse knows about this, but I figure it's OK to share now.
Thank god I had eliminated the "plus" from my count long before!
Toking
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 09-Mar-2005 16:47:10 (#12389)
6. Never toke. Excessive toking is just as bad as misplaying hands as you are losing EV, but a small toke here and there goes a long way toward avoiding that "counters never toke" profile.
Of course... you're right! I always unerstood counter's and cheapskate's reasons for not toking. Made mathematical sense. And of course, I'm a people person. So, I love chatting up the dealers and toking the fun, interesting or (mostly) pretty ones.
Well, last trip I learned the happy medium. I was low on bankroll and blackjack wasn't the primary reason for the trip. I didn't want to give up any edge to the dealer tip pool. But we should note:
YOU WANT THE DELAERS ON YOUR SIDE. Granted, toking may look like normal ploppy behavior to the pit, but having the dealer on your side is worth a bundle.
I found that spreading $5 - $60 throughout the trip at various SD & DD games with $5 or $10 minimums, a $2 tip played ONCE, was all it took in 4 specific instances in 3 casinos to get that knowing glance from the dealers that they like you and are on your side. Twice, the dealers were ugly to ploppies that sat down until they left and we had heads up play again. These were the sessions that yielded all of my win for the trip. These dealers were always rooting for me.
I love it when I get that little glance that they like me. The voodoo blackjack gods always smile after that. And for less than the cost of a pack of smokes or a call drink at the bar??? Worth in all day long.
BTW - If you're wondering. My completely disposable bankroll was $560. Balckjack was secondary to my trip. I left town with $678 dollars(no kidding) and after I paid for parking at my home airport, I had $666 Ouch! A win, noetheless. What will ZG say about this numerology?
EC = Easy to get tossed
Posted by Virgin Counter on 06-Mar-2005 22:13:10 (#12318)
A move from $10 to $30 on a slightly positive count will draw heat at this place. My feelings are the bosses are tired of getting picked on by counters and basically will toss just about anyone who even smells of doing a countdown. They count the discards, they shuffle on you, stare you down, and if you don't get the message they boot you. I think they take it personally, especially the brother in the shiny purple suit. Plus the bosses are stressed out with the clueless dealers paying off 23's and other crazy stuff.
You are a floorman?
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Mar-2005 13:02:30 (#12321)
Have you ever backed me off?
At any rate, glad to have you here. You are a "crossroader". That's not a bad thing.
--Mayor
"Crossroader" *LINK*
Posted by LVBear584 on 07-Mar-2005 15:31:02 (#12326)
You are a "crossroader". That's not a bad thing.
Does crossroader have a meaning other than that in the BJ21.com Glossary:
<u>Crossroader.</u> A colloquialism for a cheat, hustler, con man or scam artist.
?????
Maybe SonOfBeve is a "fence crosser"??
Not yet
Posted by SonOfBeve on 07-Mar-2005 17:41:54 (#12329)
I havent backed you off...yet. MUHAHA! I work at a casino downtown, one you are barred from actually. We have pictures and information about you with the label "Do not allow to play at any ####### property" You could always wear a disguise though. ask ZG about me if you want to know what casino I work for.
Sonofbeve is OK... *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Mar-2005 21:10:17 (#12372)
...I'm slowly drawing him away from the dark side. zg
How long did you play?
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Mar-2005 17:34:07 (#12327)
I had a 2 hour session there and won over $400 playing BJ and lost $100 practicing my dice control at the craps table. I used some cover along with my best ploppy/tourist drinking act.
I lasted almost that long before being asked to leave a particularly sweaty Coast property.
Too Long
Posted by SonOfBeve on 07-Mar-2005 17:44:36 (#12330)
I was there for about 4 hours. I was down most of the time then I came back and made $150 in my last hour.
THE EC like virtually any playable...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Mar-2005 22:00:54 (#12343)
... casino CAN be played for hours on end (as Sonofbeve has witnessed), BUT it is not recommened for newbies. zg
Thanks Cardcounter.com
Posted by Anthony on 06-Mar-2005 11:02:02 (#12307)
To everyone:
Thanks!!! Since I've started reading this web-site, related links, and the book Blackbet in Blackjack, I believe my knowledge has gotten stronger. When I'm in the casino going to the sports book or whatever, I'll take a look at the tables and see what's going on, and it's nice, becuase when I look at the table I just feel that much more stronger than I did before when I was already better than just the average player.
This weekend after reading Blackbelt in Blackjack and reading this site, I was ready to play some. I had about 400 in my pocket and wanted to play a little; however, the tables were packed and I decided adjanst it. Latter that night I was tired and watching t.v., then my roommate says let's go to "******", and eventhough being tired I said what the heck. We agreed to meet up in an hour and a half. (My roommate loves video poker) It's much latter and I find a spot @ Super-fun 21. I remember "The Mayor" said it could be beaten. The first fifteen minunets nothing special just back and forth. I surrendered a couple of times with 15 and 16's versus 10's with a plus count and would have lost most surrenders.
Although I'm really tired and the dealers like why don't you get a drink or something you look tired. I'm battling it out and spreading 1-4. Eventually, a plus count I get 7-3 looking into a 8. I double, I get an A to make 21. I win. I'm now up forty after 45 minunets. Playing more and the counts nothing exciting. Now there's a couple more hands I surrender and small doubles that I win. Now it's a plus count again and here goes a $20 bet. I get a 6-5 looking into a ten. Double, I get a ten and I win!!! I'm up 80$ and I cash out. I tip 3$ plus I had a dollar for the deal on both the original and double down bet. I played for a little over an hour and made good money.
It would be great if it was like that all the time, and over time I shouldn't win that amount an hour, but after practicing, asking advice, and studying different stratigies, i.e. surrender I had a good session, made money and had fun. I was happy with my play and it especially made me feel good after reading Blacbelt in BJ when Snyder talks about how a martial artist exploits the weakness of his opponet, like when I had a 4 unit bet, plus count, and a double. The opponet was week and I attacked, thus concuring my opponet. Lets see what happens the next time out.
Take it Easy and happy counting
Good Session!!!......
Posted by phantom007 on 06-Mar-2005 20:18:07 (#12314)
and Welcome to the world of AP! Your post asked no questions nor solicited advice.
However, if you are relatively new to the game(s), may I STRONGLY suggest that you not play SF21 for any serious $, unless you have studied this game as an individual entity.
See OCKO's archive on CC.com for a good start. With only one suit, and usually diamonds, paying 3:2 on BJ, one starts out with a 6.25/5 BJ game. Certainly, all of the surrender and DD/split options make this a much better venue than 6:5, however, you are still at nearly a 1% disadvantage off the top.
Learning proper indicies for all of you options in addition to the usual Bet/Play/Ins. is paramount in importance. Certainly wide spread is also key. Most stores tolerate a wider spread on SF21, though sometimes one must make concessions in order to get it.
During recent LV trip, was playing SF21 with a start/neg. ct. bet of $10., and pressing to $25.-$100. when appropriate, OR AT LEAST THIS WAS MY PLAN. However, every time I pulled back my reds and bet green, the Dealer shuffled!
Craps!
So, I quickly changed to Plan B....start out with 2 green, and as the TC dictated, press or pull as appropriate! Dealer had no problem with me going "Green-to-Red", nor with "Green-to-Green"....occasionally caused a problem when the TC swung Pos. with a little bet out....in this case, after wins, I just "let it ride"....after losses, I would "double-up" my reds, and cringe as invariably, it seemed like Dealer kept getting a 5 or 6-up against my juicy DD/Split cards.
In retrospect, I may have missed an excellent opportunity, since it appeared that I could make the Dealer shuffle at MY will! Should have started out with $50, and pressed GENTLY to $75-100. in Pos. TC's, and anytime the TC went Neg., should have threw out 3-4 Blacks!
Good Cards!
phantom007.
6:5 @ Hard Rock
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 06-Mar-2005 19:25:43 (#12313)
Is this a good sign or a bad one?
I was at a convention in LV. Spent the big night out with two ploppy types I'd met from WA & OH. I drove them from the strip to Orleans to Downtwon and finally ended up at the 'Rock just to see the silicone before bed time. Events for us started bright and early at 7am the nexct day and it was alrady midnight.
Most games were packed except for a slew of games under a "tent" like structure that said "Blackjack" just to the left of the door you would walk in from outside (not the main door). Most of these tables were NOT packed. $15 minimums and otherwise good condidtions, yet still no action. Finally we approached. I had to ASK if it was 6:5 and was told that is was. Someone's "girlfriend" playing at that table asked what that meant. I explained and eventually she and two others left. They probably did not want to leave while I was looking so they would not look stupid for playing there.
Is so much 6:5 new at the Hard Rock? There had to be at least 6 or 8 tables. Or is it just that folks would rather not play that game? I was aghast that thre was no indication on any of these tables that a blakcjack paid 6:5. There oughta be a law!
Roulette Probability (Black or Red)
Posted by Steven on 07-Mar-2005 06:03:50 (#12319)
Would be grateful if someone could help settle an argument:
The probability of hitting Red 10 times in a row on one table is 48.64%^9, very small chance indeed.
If you bet 5 times on black and therefore have lost, then move to a second table and again bet 5 times on black, is the mathetmatical probability of this occurring the same as 10 blacks appearing in a row on one single table?
The debate stems from the fact that in a two table scenario, we know the history of its last 5 spins. But my argument is that we are calculating the probability of one person receiving 10 blacks in a row rather than one table or any number of tables producing ten blacks in a row.
I suppose it may be the same as tossing a coin. The chances of tossing 10 heads in a row using one coin is the same as tossing 10 heads in a row swapping the coin after 5 throws.
Hope you can help.
Assuming an unbiased wheel, yes
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Mar-2005 10:37:32 (#12320)
On the other hand, no roulette wheel is truly unbiased (although it may be a thousand years before the bias becomes mathematically significant.) So if I was a roulette player and saw a wheel give black 10 times in a row, this would not prove it significantly biased towards black but the likelihood of it having such a bias is greater than a wheel that has not shown this deviant result. Just imagine watching a coin flipper flip heads 10 times in a row... bet you a quarter he's cheating.
probability...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 07-Mar-2005 14:01:42 (#12323)
>>Would be grateful if someone could help settle an argument:
>>The probability of hitting Red 10 times in a row on one table is 48.64%^9, very >>small chance indeed.
I don't quite see the number you are giving. The probability for hitting Red is 47.4% (18/38, 18 reds, 18 blacks, 0 and 00). The probability for hitting two reds in a row is 47.4% ^ 2 (47.4 squared). To hit 10 in a row it should be 47.4% ^ 10, since there are ten consecutive trials and you multiply the probability for each together, giving 10 rather than 9 for the power.
>>If you bet 5 times on black and therefore have lost, then move to a second table >>and again bet 5 times on black, is the mathetmatical probability of this >>occurring the same as 10 blacks appearing in a row on one single table?
Depends on what you are asking. Is the probability for the _entire_ string of 10 the same? yes it is. After you see 5 in a row, is the probability for seeing 5 more in a row the same? No. It is just .47^5, since the first five have already happened.
>>The debate stems from the fact that in a two table scenario, we know the history >>of its last 5 spins. But my argument is that we are calculating the probability >>of one person receiving 10 blacks in a row rather than one table or any number >>of tables producing ten blacks in a row.
You have to be careful. I have a book where the author makes a total ass of himself, talking about a Martingale betting scheme. He correctly says "the bets can get high quickly." But then he incorrectly says that you can cheat this by watching the wheel, picking the color you want to bet on, and wait until it loses twice in a row. Now start your Martingale bet at the table min, pretending that you have already lost twice with a null-bet out. he says that the probability of hitting 10 more losers is way lower than the probability of hitting ten in a row without having seen the two prior losers. Dead wrong and utter garbage. If you hit 100 reds in a row, the probability of hitting 10 more in a row is exactly as computed above. Not .47 ^ 110.
It doesn't matter whether you play ten spins at 1 table, or 1 spin each at 10 tables, the probability of 10 reds in a row for _you_ is exactly the same, assuming there is no physical hardware bias to the wheel of course.
>>I suppose it may be the same as tossing a coin. The chances of tossing 10 heads >>in a row using one coin is the same as tossing 10 heads in a row swapping the >>coin after 5 throws.
you got it... :)
>>Hope you can help.
one addition
Posted by stainless steel rat on 07-Mar-2005 14:20:16 (#12325)
If you are talking about a "European wheel" (with just 37 numbers total including the green 0) then your percentage is correct, but you still need the power 10, not 9.
Shoulda just said...
Posted by Cyrano on 07-Mar-2005 22:23:01 (#12344)
"What are the chances of me losing on Red (Black) 10 times in a row?"
Thanks
Posted by Steven on 08-Mar-2005 08:17:07 (#12353)
Guys, thanks for the input. You have confirmed what i have thought and settled the debate. The chances of getting 10 reds in a row is the same if you do it on one single table or ten.
A few points *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 07-Mar-2005 19:57:50 (#12335)
1. Biased wheels exist. But my understanding is that they are few and far between - at least in the US. This is not an effective method of Roulette play.
2. Red/Black would not be an effective method of determining, or playing, a biased wheel. Red and Black are interspersed and not useful indicators.
3. I believe Roulette can be beaten - without biased wheels. But, it is more difficult than BJ. And the analysis requires far more than casual observation. Read Laurence Scott for info as he is the expert.
SF21 Question for LVBear (or anyone)
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Mar-2005 17:47:22 (#12331)
The other night I discovered ansf21 game where virtually all of 4-5 dealers who came to the table allowed me to early-surrender against Ace... What does this do to the sf21 housEdge? zg
Did they allow it against 10 too? *NM*
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Mar-2005 19:43:20 (#12334)
Haa! I didn't think to try! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Mar-2005 20:43:50 (#12336)
Early surrender
Posted by LVBear584 on 08-Mar-2005 16:54:28 (#12360)
Early surrender is worth about four times what late surrender is worth (see Stanford Wong's Professional Blackjack page 90 et seq).
I doubt it will last for long. If you'd like to share with me which casino is doing this, please email me at LVBear584@cox.net
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