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Legends of the game: Ken Uston (1935-1987) *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Apr-2005 19:33:54 (#12855)
Legends of the game: Ken Uston (1935-1987)
PokerNews.info | April 26, 2005
By Al Moe
Ken Uston was born in 1935, and brought up in a typically middle-class neighborhood in New York. He attended Yale on scholarship at sixteen, and went on to Harvard Business School, majoring in finance. As Kenny put it, "I wanted to major in music, but my dad said, 'Kenny, there's only one Sammy Kaye,' meaning the competition was too tough."
He was a tireless worker, and found joy in every job he held from his days as Director of Operations Research at the Southern New England Telephone Company, to the Pacific Stock Exchange. He learned different computer languages, programming, and loved meshing his new knowledge with his skills from Harvard and Yale. He was well paid, and doing great in the business world.
As Senior Vice President of the Pacific Stock Exchange, Ken's Executive Assistant was my Aunt Val. Just a little coincidence that turned my life around, but not his. Ken called a dinner party conversation a "Defining moment in my bachelor life." He enjoyed a salary of about $50,000 a year in 1974, and had a penthouse apartment in San Francisco that overlooked the Bay, but it was a conversation with a young lady at a simple dinner party that changed Ken's life.
At the party, Joan told him about a friend of hers (who Ken gave the pseudonym Al Francesco) who played blackjack on a full-time basis, and because Ken had tried Thorp's point count system in nearby Lake Tahoe, Nevada, he was anxious to hear more. Later in the week, Al Francesco called and asked if he wanted to learn more about their team of players. "You bet," was Ken's only reply.
Over the weekend, in a nearby town, Ken met several of the team's members, and learned the basics of their system of play. It involved stationing a number of members on blackjack tables around the casino who would "count down" the decks of cards. When a shoe contained four decks, a "counter" would begin using a mathematical system to track the positive or negative condition of the shoe (beginning with the Revere system, but then changing a few months later to Lance Humble's Hi Opt I). With a counting system, the counter knows when the odds are in the player's favor. The counter makes the minimum bet each hand at the table, and signals the "big player" only positive counts (good for the player). The big player comes in with a very large bet and plays until the count becomes unfavorable or the decks need to be shuffled. At this point the big player looks around the casino, hoping there is another team member with a hot shoe.
The system, still used today, is very effective. The simplicity of making large bets only when the player has a 1.5 to 2.5 percent edge over the house sounds easy enough, and it fooled the pit bosses all over Nevada for several years. The bosses kept whispering together, and Ken could guess what they were saying, "Wow, this guy is going to be a gold mine for us." Oops.
Blackjack rules were more liberal in the 1970's, and the bosses less knowledgeable about card counters. Ken remembered his first trip to Las Vegas (after being promoted to one of the team's big players), as an attack on the Fremont Casino. He signaled the counter to leave the table and spread to seven hands of $500. Forty-five minutes later he cashed out $27,600 in winnings. The team would eventually win over $500,000 in Las Vegas, and even more in Europe.
Ken quit his job at the exchange, and the team played on, pounding several casinos in Las Vegas. Just when it all seemed too easy, Ken ran into trouble at the Sands, a casino they had beaten for almost $200,000. Ken was met at the cage by the casino's shift boss, and read the casino's "Trespass Act." He was told to leave the premises or be arrested. It was his first blackjack bust, and he was also barred at the other casinos owned by the Hughes Corporation, including the Frontier, Landmark, Desert Inn, Castaways and the Silver Slipper.
Upon returning to San Francisco, Ken hired a lawyer, and soon the San Francisco Chronicle ran a front-page story entitled, "Man Who Beat Vegas Sues for $24 Million." The lawsuits never amounted to much, but they did chew up much of Ken's bankroll.
On subsequent trips to Nevada, Ken was more careful. He grew a beard, let his hair grow long, and used fake ID's while playing under different names. A new team was formed, and the money began to flow again. Ken moved to the Jockey Club in Las Vegas, and orchestrated his team's activities. Then, in January of 1977, he got another interesting phone call.
The gentleman who phoned said that he had made a computer that played perfect blackjack, "if you tell it what cards have been played." The small computer, which they dubbed, "George," was the size of a pack of cigarettes, and it processed the information through four buttons, using binary code. The output device, which was initially put into an empty rouge case, transmitted a short or long vibration, telling the player the exact play for each hand.
The system was not without problems, like the time the battery pack overheated and burned one of the counters, or the time the CPU was lost in a casino, but overall the team could see the amazing power the computer offered.
A trip to Lake Tahoe provided some much needed winnings, while the players wore "magic shoes," with a tapper along the insole. Unfortunately, due to overstaying their welcome at Harrah's, several team members were arrested and the CPU confiscated. Ken was not one of them, so he bailed them all out of the Zephyr Cove jail and they scattered in the wind.
Ken was back in Vegas in 1978 when David Harman, the host of Good Morning America called him. Harman wanted to do a piece on gambling, and hoped Ken would appear on the show, perhaps even play some blackjack at a casino and be taped. Ken had just co-authored his first book, The Big Player, and the idea interested him. The only problem was that no casino wanted to let Ken play.
Like many times before and after, the Horseshoe Casino accepted a real gamble. Jack Binion set the rules: a bet variation from $400 to $1,000 and only sixteen cards or so dealt from a single deck. It wasn't much, but Benny Binion finally agreed to let Ken play either one, or two hands, at his discretion. It was enough.
Over a five-hour period, Ken managed to win $10,400 and the crew had enough to produce a nice TV show. David Harman asked Benny Binion, "Is Ken Uston a cheater?"
To which Benny replied, "Hell, no. It's a science. He used his brain, he deserves his win." If only more casinos felt that way about card counters!
In 1979, Ken was in the middle of the effort to keep Atlantic City from allowing their new casino, "Resorts International", to bar blackjack players. He once again footed the bill for the legal defense. Other players and authors, like Stanley Roberts (who published Ken's book, Million Dollar Blackjack in 1981) pleaded the case in the media. Eventually, after taking the case all the way to the New Jersey Supreme Court, the casinos were forced to allow all players the opportunity to play.
About this time I was playing basketball in college and towing cars to make ends meet. I picked up a fellow and his girlfriend (and their car) in Pleasant Hill, California and we got on the subject of poker. I fancied myself a decent player, and accepted their invitation to a game during the weekend. As things turned out, they spent a good deal of time playing blackjack, and eventually it was ascertained that I had once met Ken Uston through my aunt, and they were a part of his blackjack team.
I was lucky enough to eventually play on one of the teams, and while I was always just a "counter," it was a tremendous experience. I didn't get backrubs while eating free meals at Caesar's most prestigious restaurant like Ken did, but I did get comped at the Landmark, and for a young kid, that was great.
We would play to a bank of say $25,000 (Ken was heavily invested in real estate at this time) and when we broke the bank (doubled our money), we would have a little party. All the cash and chips were thrown on a bed and everybody would put in slips showing their expenses. After the expenses were deducted, 50% of the win went to the money backers, and the rest went to the players, based on how many hours they put in. Yeah, the big players got more, but how can I complain about a $1500 payday? It beat the hell out of towing cars for $5 an hour.
Ken Uston produced a terrific blackjack training system for home computers in 1983 that was years ahead of its time, and then took a million dollar job in Europe, programming computers. He died, sadly, in September of 1987, at the age of 52. Before that untimely death however, much like Amarillo Slim did with poker, Ken brought the skillful play of blackjack to the masses, and legitimized the game in the eyes of people that had earlier refused to believe it could be beaten. Also much like today's poker players, Ken refused to see blackjack as gambling. He always said he was just a businessman, and it's true. He was a very good, businessman.
amazing..great quote on his take that it is not gambling.
Posted by eyesfor21 on 27-Apr-2005 10:36:14 (#12863)
the worlds best was truly the master.
So running a business isn't a gamble? *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 27-Apr-2005 15:41:04 (#12872)
we all cry for penetration real masters don't need it.
Posted by eyesfor21 on 27-Apr-2005 10:38:01 (#12864)
but it helps.
When your good your good.
An enjoyable read. Thanks for posting. *NM*
Posted by Sun Runner on 27-Apr-2005 13:52:01 (#12867)
News: Kenny Einiger Wins GSN's WORLD SERIES OF BLACKJACK II *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Apr-2005 19:36:23 (#12856)
News: Kenny Einiger Wins GSN's WORLD SERIES OF BLACKJACK II
SANTA MONICA, Calif., April 26 /PRNewswire/ -- The cards were dealt and the chips were on the table as professional blackjack player Kenny Einiger became champion of GSN's WORLD SERIES OF BLACKJACK II, taking home the tournament grand prize of $250,000.
Einiger played it very safe throughout the entire series, betting the minimum during most of the games. The final table brought out the professional in Einiger as he abandoned the safe play in favor of the all or nothing approach that ultimately led him to victory against his opponents Rick Jensen, Stanford Wong and Kami Lis. On the final hand, Einiger made the largest bet and when the dealer busted, Einiger took home the spoils.
Einiger says, "Winning the 2005 WORLD SERIES OF BLACKJACK II was tremendous! It's the culmination of my fifteen years plus of tournament play and the ultimate for any professional." He continues, "I am very proud to be representing GSN as their 2005 winner of the WORLD SERIES OF BLACKJACK II."
WORLD SERIES OF BLACKJACK II is executive produced by Paul Abeyta and Peter Kaikko for Montana Productions.
GSN, the Network for Games, is the only U.S. television network dedicated to game-related programming and interactive game playing. The network features game shows, reality series, documentaries, alternative sports programs and casino games. As the industry leader in interactivity, GSN features over 84 hours per week of interactive programming, which allows viewers a chance to win prizes by playing along with GSN's televised games via GSN.com. Reaching 56 million Nielsen homes, GSN is distributed in the U.S. through all major cable systems and satellite providers. The network is jointly owned by Sony Pictures Entertainment and Liberty Media Corporation. For further media information, visit GSN's press website at corp.gsn.com.
Web site: http://www.gsn.com/
Blackjack Ball Quiz
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Apr-2005 19:43:35 (#12857)
Blackjack Ball Quiz
GamblingMagazine.com | Apr 21, 2005
Each year, Max Rubin hosts a "Blackjack Ball," bringing dozens of card counters to a secret Nevada location. They socialize, induct new members to the Blackjack Hall of Fame --- this year's inductees were Playing Blackjack as a Business author Lawrence Revere and basic strategy/card counting pioneer Julian Braun --- and hold a World Championship of Blackjack competition.
There's also a fun little quiz that goes with the event, one that Dr. Henry Tamburin brought to my attention. Tamburin, author of Blackjack: Take the Money and Run, is one of my good friends in this business. He also publishes a monthly Blackjack Insider newsletter you can find at www.blackjackinsider.com, with a $19.95 fee for a one-year membership. The newsletter is chock full of the ups and downs of blackjack, with trip reports, information on the best games in different markets, warnings about some of the worst, strategy discussions, a word about poker from Bill Burton and much more. The insights of Henry and his team make the Blackjack Insider one of my most valued resources.
In January and February, Blackjack Insider published the Blackjack Ball preliminary quiz and answers. Tamburin asked if I'd like to share some of the quiz, which includes many non-blackjack questions with my readers, so let's try five of the 31 questions. Test yourself, then I'll give answers below.
1. If you stand a standard $5 chip vertically on its side, then stack $5 chips next to it until they reach the top of the vertical chip, what is the value of the stack? A. $40. B. $45. C. $50. D. $60.
2. To the nearest tenth of one percent, with Aces counting as one, what is the average value of all the cards in a standard deck? The answer must be exact.
3. Which of these is the best game for the basic strategy player? A. Single deck, dealer hits soft seventeen, no double after split, double 10-11 only, split up to four times, late surrender allowed. B. Double deck, dealer hits soft seventeen, no double after split allowed, double any two cards, split up to four times, no surrender. C. Four decks, dealer stands soft seventeen, double any two cards, double after split, split up to four times, no surrender. D. Six decks, dealer hits soft seventeen, double any two cards, double after split, split up to four times, surrender allowed.
4. Which of these four is the best starting hand you can have if a dealer has a 5 up? A. A total of 2. B. Soft 17. C. A total of 6. D. A total of 18.
5. True or False. In some Missouri casinos, players are allowed to smoke cigarettes and cigars on the games but there are signs posted telling the players not to spit tobacco juice while playing.
ALSO ON THE WEB: Before we get to the answers, I just wanted to let everyone know that my own Web site is now up and running. At www.casinoanswerman.com, you'll find some of my past columns, quizzes, some basics on how to play and strategies for casino games, and more. I'll post some of my magazine articles and occasional book excerpts there, and there's a page where you can order my books.
Once I figure out the designer's instructions on how to update the site, you'll find something new there every week. I hope you'll stop by.
QUIZ ANSWERS: Thanks again to Henry Tamburin and his Blackjack Insider site for making this quiz excerpt available. On to the answers:
1. If you stack $5 chips until the stack is as tall as one chip stood on it's side, it'll take 12 chips to reach the top --- a total of $60.
2. With Aces counting as one, the average value of a card in a standard 52-card deck is 6.5.
3. This one is for those who think fewer decks always means a better game. If all other rules were equal, a single-deck game would have a lower house edge than those with more decks, but there are some powerful negative rules on the one- and two-deck games here. The dealer hitting soft 17 and the restrictions on doubling down are bad for the player, more than enough to overcome the advantage of using fewer decks. The six-deck game offers surrender, but the dealer hits soft 17. The best game here is C., the four-deck game, which doesn't offer surrender but has the dealer stand on all 17s and has favorable double-down rules.
4. When the dealer has 5 up, the player is hoping for an opportunity to split a pair or double down. We'd double down soft 17 against a 5, but the best opportunity listed here is A., a total of 2. A total of 2 means we have a pair of Aces. We'd split them against any dealer up card --- and split them quite profitably against a 5.
5. I've not encountered this myself, but the answer is True. In some Missouri casinos, players are allowed to smoke, but signs warn them not to spit tobacco juice. Hey, it's a start.
by Mr. John Grochowski
If "NO SPIT", then Monica Lewinski!....
Posted by phantom007 on 27-Apr-2005 23:51:06 (#12879)
thus, then, and THEREFORE!
One must SWALLOW!
Have played in multiple Mo. stores over the years....have never seen the "NO SPIT" rule posted. Not saying you are wrong, just that I have not seen it posted. What is even worse about Mo. Casino's is that:
1. NO FREE BOOZE!
2. BOOZE (that you paid for) is MANDATORILY removed from "YOUR COLD DEAD HAND" at 1:30am, 7-days a week...reappears circa. 6am.
3. $500./2hr. Buy-in Limit.
4. Sh#tty Games, albeit, CC's/AP's cannot be barred, only "Short-Decked".
Some JOKES:
A. Monica's favorite bird?....The Swallow.
B. Difference between LOVE, TRUE LOVE, and BRAGGING?
-----LOVE...she spits.
-----TRUE-LOVE...she swallows.
-----BRAGGING...she GARGLES!
GRIN!
ph.7.
Blackwood donates winnings to charity
Posted by zengrifter on 26-Apr-2005 19:48:42 (#12858)
RegisterGuard.com | April 17, 2005
Pro gambler donates winnings to charity
Professional blackjack player Kevin Blackwood of Eugene has donated his winnings from a recent tournament to World Vision, the international Christian relief organization.
Blackwood won $12,500 in the World Series of Blackjack, taped in November at the Golden Nugget Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas. The tournament is televised as a series on GSN, formerly the Gameshow Network. Blackwood's last appearance, in the semifinals, aired this weekend.
He said he thought he had a good shot at making the final table, where players vied for a $250,000 first-place prize. The top two players from each semifinal round advance, and he placed third.
In tournament blackjack, players still try to beat the dealer but compete against one another in attempting to win the biggest stack of chips in a fixed number of hands.
In his semifinal round, Blackwood bet $25,000 on one hand and $50,000 on the next - his two biggest bets of the entire tournament. And he received the worst two hands he could have been dealt: both were 16 against the dealer's 10.
"That was frustrating, especially when it happened twice within minutes and I had already busted out on the first one and it looked like I was facing the abyss the second time around," he said.
Blackwood has mastered the skill of counting cards, giving him a winning advantage in blackjack. He said he has been tossed out of casinos more than 200 times.
Now he's trying to parlay his expertise into celebrity tournament play and has vowed to donate all such winnings to charity.
He intends to play in a tournament in June at the Horizon Resort and Casino in Lake Tahoe, Nev.
Blackwood's new book, "Play Blackjack Like the Pros" (HarperCollins, $27.95), is now in book stores. More information can be found at www.kevinblackwood.com.
What a cool thing to do
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 27-Apr-2005 21:43:00 (#12875)
In a game where you have to think long and hard about even tipping the dealer to preserve your EV, to give away a prize like that is truly awesome.
Clarification
Posted by KevinBlackwood on 28-Apr-2005 10:07:47 (#12881)
One item in that article was wrong. The price on my new book is $15.95 and I believe Eliot will have that book available in his online store soon.
I was inspired to give away my tournament winnings from watching Barry Greenstein on the World Poker Tour. He is called "The Robin Hood of Poker." I have been very fortunate to have won a lot of money at the blackjack tables over my career, so I decided before the World series of Blackjack to give away all my winnings on that show and from every future tournaments to charity. Perhaps this small act will help all of us to reflect on what is truly important in life.
If some of you haven't tried tournament blackjack, I encourage you to give it a shot. They offer some of the best values because of overlays and guaranteed prize money. And perhaps more importantly, they are just plain fun to play. These tournaments are much more like sporting events than regular blackjack and can interject some excitement into your gambling trips.
I will be playing at the Horizon Casino Tournament in Lake Tahoe from June 7-11 and doing some seminars and speaking during that time. I hope to see some of you there!
Comments...
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Apr-2005 12:45:52 (#12890)
The books listed for sale here are brought to you courtesy of bj21.com. I don't have any control over the order sheet or what's on it, but I will make a request that they list your book (and Snyder's new books, and every other good new book that comes out).
Congrats on your book. I have seen it, and it is excellent. It really shows the experience you have had in practical terms, and is full of interesting stories and great advice. I encourage everyone here to get a copy.
Also congrats on your performance in the tourney. You are a nice guy. I would have kept the prize money!
--Mayor
Play Blackjack Like the Pros by Kevin Blackwood now listed on cc.com order form *NM*
Posted by Al Rogers on 30-Apr-2005 17:08:14 (#12893)
And Who Said that BJ Has NO Social Redeeming Value! You're an Inspiration. *NM*
Posted by Praying Mantis on 30-Apr-2005 17:31:58 (#12894)
My Evening at The Wynn
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Apr-2005 16:42:05 (#12883)
My Evening at The Wynn
Entering with VIP media 90 minutes prior to the midnight floodgate, I was of course impressed with the 6-star opulent splendor of the property.
Different inside than previous Wynn creations, it nonetheless has a distinct similarity to the 'big B' while encompassing and out classing the best elements of the top joints - Caesars, Mandalay, B, V, etc.
Of course I was looking for BJ info and all that I initially found was CSMs! Oh no!
Then I found some shoes. Did I mention that the CSMs are h17? Well so were the shoes, with mediocre pene to boot. I immediately wrote the whole joint off like I did the Venetian in '99.
Oh, look, a 2D @ $10 min! Sitting down, I'm about to buy-in when I realize that its a 6/5 game, the bastards! F**K Wynn!
By the time the midnite gates open I find myself near the back, no longer looking for BJ. Suddenly I almost miss them - two entire pits of s17 games, including 2D w/DAS $15 and $25 minimums.
I sit down with a table to myself and the PCs are falling over themselves to glad-hand me, a lowly greenchipper (at that moment anyway) - she shuffles, I cut, the deck is returned to the discard tray for a notched card insertion... WOW, ITS OVER 75%!! YAAAA BABY YAAAA!!!
I played 2.5 hours spreading $25 to 2x $75 with the requisite off-the-top cover bets (I know that my bets were small, but I was alone for most of the first hour), etc. and won $1700.
I noticed a lot of familiar faces on the floor from GN, HShoe, Hilton, etc. - this place is NOT to be taken for granted. zg
not uncommon
Posted by Victoria on 28-Apr-2005 17:41:23 (#12884)
I think today concerning game layout in casinos, it is not uncommon to find the better games far from the front door and those games near the front designed to get the max out of unknowing walk ins.
Glad to hear about good DD in the green chip range, the first report I read said that DD was all 6/5.
Did you see what the penetration was on their S-17 shoe game?
Victoria
6D s17 pen was 77.5% *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Apr-2005 18:10:20 (#12885)
Even More Important????......
Posted by phantom007 on 28-Apr-2005 23:26:31 (#12886)
Did you get a Meal Comp?....+EV $10-100.?
Or Better Yet, a Room Comp?....+EV $249.+/night?
Did you tell PC's you were Mr. Wynn?
Again???
GRIN!
ph.7.
A request to the community
Posted by toddler on 29-Apr-2005 08:46:45 (#12888)
zg wrote: I sit down with a table to myself and the PCs are falling over themselves to glad-hand me, a lowly greenchipper (at that moment anyway) - she shuffles, I cut, the deck is returned to the discard tray for a notched card insertion... WOW, ITS OVER 75%!! YAAAA BABY YAAAA!!!
Please, please, please... do not burn this game out! It is nice to see Wynn's group left at least one diamond in the rough, but can we please keep the the game around long enough for the rest of us to enjoy? Is that too much to ask?
It's only an typical game.
Posted by Tom on 29-Apr-2005 09:46:33 (#12889)
Dont worry, dealing out a few more cards past 75% is nothing to brag about. It happens all the time at other casinos. I dont consider it a game to get all excited about,there's better ones out there.
There are only 4 tables...
Posted by zengrifter on 29-Apr-2005 13:23:09 (#12891)
... I don't expect the number to increase. zg
Disagree.....Only O'SH#T's.....
Posted by phantom007 on 29-Apr-2005 23:52:11 (#12892)
Previous to this post, O'Shea's, or whatever, had 6:5 DD BJ FRANCHISE!
This is IMPORTANT INFO., i.e., this JUICY GAME is now also available at Wynn's!
Poster was right in sharing same on a Public Board! Certainly, EV may be less, BUT SINCE ONLY PLOPPIES WILL PLAY THIS GAME, Excellent Cover Opportunity! Further, EVEN PLOPPIES AVOID THIS GAME! My last 2 "walk-throghs" of O'Sh#t's, over the last 2 years, yielded EMPTY Tables, and Dealers BEGGING ME TO PLAY!
Anyhow, I hope that Wynn expands his 6:5 to 6D....SO MUCH EASIER TO COUNT than SD!
GRIN!
ph.7.
The game is being pounded...
Posted by zengrifter on 30-Apr-2005 17:59:15 (#12896)
... by higher-stakes pros, get it while the gettins good. Played it again Thursday night and saw a couple of familiar faces at the table. zg
I seen a bunch of ploppies there.
Posted by Informat on 30-Apr-2005 22:59:05 (#12899)
Some progession betters and voodoo kings,which one were you? I noticed a guy guy that raised his bet with the count a few times,but he made too many mistakes to be a pro. He probably wasn't even a card counter. Yeah,with idiots like that,there's money to be made.
What's your point?
Posted by The Mayor on 01-May-2005 12:17:58 (#12903)
Here's what I get from your post...
1) There are ploppies playing at Wynn.
Agree.
2) There is money to be made at Wynn at some of their games.
Agree.
The point?
Posted by Informat on 01-May-2005 15:32:02 (#12904)
A simple point....lot's of ploppies...didn't see any good players. Yeah,maybe there's no point at all, but just an observation from my experience,so take it for what it's worth.
Informat
super fun
Posted by Gorgon on 30-Apr-2005 19:55:10 (#12897)
Browsed through "The Blackjack Zone" and noticed it billed super fun 21 as a game to be avoided. Does that include wonging it, too?
YES, and sometimes, DONGING Too!.....
Posted by phantom007 on 01-May-2005 01:03:16 (#12900)
Wonging a SF21 Table is rarely a good idea, since:
(1) Many, if not most, prohibit Mid-deck entry!
(2) If/when allowed, rarely get more than 1-2 Rounds in +++TC opportunities.
(3) Since this is primarily a Ploppy Game, YOU CHANGE THE FLOW OF THE CARDS!
YOU Will be High-Profile, and Quickly! In other words, the Ploppies will Hate you!
(4) CC's will Hate you even more!!! You Wong-in to my TC+6 situation, I might just ask the PC.....
-----Ph.7: "What is the Griffin Book?"
-----P.C.: "Well, Phantom007, it is kind of secret, but since you are smart enough to play our SF21 game, I will tell you! It is a book that informs the Casinos of PLAYERS WHO CHEAT!
-----Ph.7: "NO SH#T! That guy who just placed $500. bet (a BARNEY in Tunica-speak) played at my table at Jerkus-Jerkus a few hours ago. I overheard other Pit Bosses like you (PC's LIKE TO BE CALLED PB's), saying that he was in that Griffin Book thing. He won $10k in less than 10 minutes, then left.
Sir, HE CHANGED THE FLOW OF THE CARDS!, and cost me $250.!"
-----P.C.: "Sorry about your loss....I have to make a phone call or three, then I will be back to Comp. you RFB!".
(5) Most stores have only 1-2 SF21 tables....Not a Wonger's Dream!
NOW, AS TO DONGING:
(A) Mostly a Male thing, but quite simply, go "PEE" when the TC tanks.
(B) Good Ploy for 6D, especially when drinking lots of free beer while playing a Hand-Shuffled game...TC tanks, DONG-OUT, Pee, wash hands, etc., and return to a freshly shuffled SHOE.
(C) Does not work for SF21 because of usual "No Mid-Deck Entry", plus on your return to said table, you will have no idea of the accurate TC, even if you were allowed to place a bet.
MY SF21 DONGING EXPERIENCE(s):
1. Trying the ONE-HAND DONG (Neg. TC's) and the TWO-HAND DONG (Pos. TC's), PC came over and said "Once you play 2 hands, you have to continue to play 2 hands until the shuffle". I asked what would happen if I lost $$$$, and only had the $ to play one-hand?....She just walked away.
2. Therefore, was forced to "PLAY WITH MY DONG"!...start out with 2 hands, RAMP-UP when appropriate, and just "GO PEE" when not.
3. MAJOR RAMPS = SHUFFLE! Tried the $10. Min. Bet, and $100. jump as TC justified....SHUFFLE! Switched to $50. initial Bet, then down to $10., or up to $100. as TC dictated....NO PROBLEM!
Hope my experiences are helpful.
Phantom007.
amusing story
Posted by stainless steel rat on 30-Apr-2005 21:41:47 (#12898)
Was out tonight, and went by a new Barnes and Noble book store, and thought I would check to see if they had Eliot's book since he said they are going to stock it.
Looked around but gambling books were apparently "hidden" so I went to the info desk. two of us walked up at the same time, both asking about a casino-related book. Clerk said "OK.. since you both asked at the same time, we need a tie-breaker." Then he said "9 7 +3". Other guy said "19" at the same time that I said "double down." He looked at me, and said "OK, you win."
I asked about "The Blackjack Zone" and he said "I don't know if we have it in yet, but you should check the blackjack section." I asked "where is it, I could not find it." He said "walk up to the second aisle before the front, take a right, and walk until the stink is unbearable. You will be "there". By now I had picked up on the fact that this guy knew something about blackjack (the 9 vs 7 hi-lo double index was a clue) so I headed off. The other guy said "wait a minute, what is that about the 'stink'" I said "I believe he is talking about books written by either Patrick or Patterson with respect to casino play..." Clerk grinned, nodded, end of story.
:)
And no, no BJ Zone in the store yet, but this is a brand new store open for a couple of weeks max...
And yes, they had multiple patrick/patterson books, but I could not bring myself to touch one.
Did speed-read "bringing down the house" however. :)
talked to him later, turns out he is a card-counter (no idea how good, but he's been doing it a couple of years according to him). We've played many of the same casinos since we are from the same "home base" :)
I think the "OTHER GUY" won.....
Posted by phantom007 on 01-May-2005 01:23:18 (#12901)
9,7+3 = 19, said the "Other Guy".
You said DD?
Sounds like the $7./hour B&N Clerk was an expert CC, looking for TEAM MEMBERS!
ZG, when did you start working at B&N?
GRINS!
ph.7.
Thanks for the report!
Posted by The Mayor on 01-May-2005 10:03:22 (#12902)
I got an order for another 75 from B&N yesterday, so that's almost 400 that have shipped out in the last month. I am not sure which stores are getting them, but my publisher tells me she thinks it is mainly East Coast (NY/NJ) and Nevada B&N. Still, it seems to be selling, so maybe that will grow.
I did ask
Posted by stainless steel rat on 04-May-2005 16:21:15 (#12924)
and they said they would have a copy in the store soon. I commented that if they could keep the Patterson/Patrick crap on the shelves, they could certainly keep a legitimate BJ book there as well... :)
Never knew those two wrote so much about other forms of gambling too, from craps, to roulette, to who-knows-what...
simulation
Posted by Garo on 01-May-2005 18:47:17 (#12905)
Until I can figure out how to use CVCX can I ask one of you to run a sim for me? What's my hourly on DD H17 DAS DOA SpA1 55%, two hands TC<2 $5 TC=2 $20 TC=3 $30 TC>3 $50? Also any changes to that that you recommend? Thank you for your help.
CVCX Output
Posted by Dog Hand on 01-May-2005 21:50:30 (#12906)
Garo,
Below is the output from CVCX. By the way, you didn't specify your count system, so I assumed HiLo. Also, I apologize that the alignment is slightly askew, but I'm sure you can figure out which heading goes with which column.
Ignore the "Set RoR" info... instead, I set the minimum bet to $5. The RoR figures given for the Optimum (Opt.) and Custom schedules are for a $10K bank. The Custom schedule is the schedule you specified; the Optimum schedule is the schedule calculated by CVCX.
To answer your specific questions, for your bet schedule you should win $22.53 per 100 hands, while for the optimum schedule you can up this to $25.31.
Hope this helps!
Dog Hand
Sunday, May 01, 2005, 09:39 PM
Configuration
Rules H17 DAS
Decks Double
Penetration 55%
Set RoR 0.125%
Hands/Hour 100
Spread 10
Hands 2
Bankroll $10,000.00
Results
Average
Bet Results Results Results Std Dev Std Dev Risk of
Ruin Performance Performance
Bets Average
Bet %W/L WinRate $/Hr. Hand Hour Risk of
Ruin DI c-SCORE
Opt. 2x2.516 1.006% 5.063 $25.31 7.283 72.826 2.2% 6.95 48.33
Custom 2x2.191 1.028% 4.505 $22.53 6.557 65.566 1.5% 6.87 47.22
Count
Freq. EV EV Standard
Deviation Optimal Bets Optimal Bets Custom
Count Count
Freq. Win/Loss Std. Error Standard
Deviation Exact Chips Bets
<=-1 33.89% -1.89% 0.00 1.148 1.00 2x5 5
0 36.06% -0.37% 0.00 1.139 1.00 2x5 5
1 10.04% 0.36% 0.01 1.137 2.20 2x11 5
2 7.65% 0.90% 0.01 1.136 5.49 2x27 20
3 3.77% 1.41% 0.01 1.141 8.50 2x43 30
4 4.06% 1.98% 0.01 1.145 10.00 2x50 50
5 1.61% 2.60% 0.02 1.146 10.00 2x50 50
6 1.17% 3.23% 0.02 1.150 10.00 2x50 50
7 .69% 3.76% 0.03 1.148 10.00 2x50 50
8 .52% 4.41% 0.03 1.144 10.00 2x50 50
9 .23% 5.05% 0.04 1.140 10.00 2x50 50
10 .14% 5.57% 0.06 1.135 10.00 2x50 50
11 .08% 6.19% 0.07 1.131 10.00 2x50 50
>=12 .09% 7.14% 0.07 1.123 10.00 2x50 50
Thanks Dogg
Posted by Garo on 02-May-2005 16:20:44 (#12907)
I had a feeling it wasn't $2.81, thats the number I got with CVCX.
A very revealing report on Steve Wynn... *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 02-May-2005 19:41:38 (#12909)
... has just been posted in the ZenZone. zg
Hey dudes... Message 1.
Posted by Signaleer on 02-May-2005 22:47:26 (#12911)
Hey team,
I am the guy that was freaking out last year after buying KO
Blackjack from Zen Grifter on a Vegas trip one time after watching
the MIT Blackjack team on Discovery. Well, after I read it, that
week I had my best week ever... up about 4500. I think I
was 'clump' counting at best, and getting lucky.
Since then, I have been to Foxwoods, up about 275 on a one night
trip (then down 400 on another trip - however, I have to caveat
that, that I had played for about 10 hours, and then said "Hey, why
don't I make 4 ea. 100 dollar bets and walk away win or loose.
Well, you can see the results). I lost 400 at South Tahoe couple
months back. Honest to god, couldn't catch a card. And now in
Vegas, last trip, up nearly 700. (should have been 900, but again,
those walk away 100 dollar bets will kick your ass, I made four, one
won, lost three, then stopped). Dumb. I should say that that 4500 dollar week included a single 1000 dollar bet, table max, and well... :-)
In any case, I am playing basic strategy, sometimes single deck,
sometimes multideck, sometimes good rules, sometimes bad rules, and
I am basically doing fine. The trips are fun, I set my loss limits,
and it seems like when I see a table full of low cards, I spread 1
to 5 or so, and seem to hit. Then I pull back, and play low money,
protecting the stacks.
My girlfriend and I were drinking, so no heat. Well, let's call a
spade a spade, I can't drink at work, and well, when I go to the
table, I like to drink. :) Ah Hell.. ok, I like to drink anyways.
Sue me.
So, all in all, I know you will tell me "Clump counting doesn't
work". I have posted these messages before, but gosh darn, if it
doesn't seem to be doing ok for me. (I do know there are a few
times I got lucky though, not going to argue that).
I also met Andy Bloch as we were guests at the Celebrity Poker
Showdown or whatever that show is on Bravo. Anyways, that was
totally cool as well.
So, I have a trip in a few weeks. I am actually going to spend some
serious time trying to up my skills here in the next three weeks.
but Gosh darn, if basic strategy and some clump counting aint
working for me - you are all going to have a hard time proving that
to me.
Oh, last game, we were playing 6:5 single deck, and I was doing my
best to hunt for aces, although I dont really know why :-) Just
seemed to be workin.
Boarding.
PS. Thanks Zen Grifter for the counting intro. Andy didn't know
your handle and I dont think I know your real name.
Happy for your Wins!....
Posted by phantom007 on 03-May-2005 09:00:35 (#12916)
I do not, however, quite understand "Clump Counting", unless this means something like "Cut-offs, slugs, plugs, or the like". Does this work on 6:5?
P.S.: ZG, I want my copy of KO BJ back! Hope you did not sell it!
GRINS.
Phantom007.
Email me before you arrive...
Posted by zengrifter on 03-May-2005 21:08:40 (#12920)
... at griftzen@yahoo.com
As for my name, here's a hint - http://www.cardcounter.com/ZG.pl?read=3360
ZG, are you an "UNDERSEIGE" from TN?...
Posted by phantom007 on 04-May-2005 08:49:20 (#12921)
If yes, maybe we are related. My mother's grandfather was a TN "Underseige" from circa. 1861-65.
Maybe next LV trip, I will get some "fake" Players Cards to honour the Family name! Ideas that come quickly to mind include:
---Dick Underseige.
---Peter Underseige.
---Bankroll Underseige.
After too much beer and Stardust Comp'd Buffet---Colon Underseige.
We could form a "Trip Team" and play the German Exec.'s in town for a Pharmaceutical, Optical, or why not, NASCAR convention---Heir Fantom UNDER Heir Zengrifzen Seige.
Add an umlat thing ('), and SURRENDER way too early and often---could easily pass ourselves off as "French Underseige'".
Play at and with the chips of EC or Fester'n, then Eat, or Go to the Bathroom without washing hands first---Hy Gene Underseige.
Hooker offer you anything you want for $100./hour...pay her 4 hours of flashing you her "Holes", and when signalled "Taking extra Hits" or "Sitting on her Stiffs"---Her Players Card, of course, Hymen Underseige.
In closing, ZG, certainly BOLD of you to publish your true name, "America UnderSeige" on this public site.
phantom007.
Ok, New topic
Posted by Signaleer on 02-May-2005 22:52:58 (#12912)
Guys, F clump counting.
Gosh, I think I may have been getting lucky.
Ok, point one. I posted that last message on the wrong board a few weeks back. Since then I have been practicing.
To all those that have CVBJ - so do I. And I have something to say. I invested 100 bucks in some nice 13.5 gram poker chips, and a few decks of cards, and let me tell you - throw the computers away.
I have been practicing, as my trip is coming up. And I want to tell you, the insights that come from sitting there, moving chips, dealing cards, keeping count, with the stereo or tv on, phone ringing now and then, can't be simulated. My counting has increased 10 fold in the last few weeks.
I am now almost using the KO Preferred system, and once in a while the RC will go to +8 or better and the insight you get is almost crazy. I have been really blown away.
In any case, I have a few questions.
I would like to understand what games I look for....
I know I am looking for DAS. I think I want Dealer to Stand on Soft 17. I would love Surrender, and 2 decks or so.
I think there is other stuff to look for as well?
Can someone help me?
Regards,
Signaleer...
Sure
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-May-2005 01:45:20 (#12913)
The KO system works just fine, and all the rules you mention are desirable. If you give me a general area where you live or are willing to travel to I and others here can recommend some games.
What was your Initial Post???
Posted by phantom007 on 03-May-2005 08:51:18 (#12915)
Some more questions (I mean to be helpful):
1. You state "RC of +8 opens your eyes"....did you mean TC?
I ask simply because a RC of +8 in SD, or about 1/2 way through a DD is a a Boner/Mini-Boner, respectively, but in 6D, would be of minimal significance up to about 2 decks played, and even then, would only call for a slight "ramp-up".
2. What is your experience level? That is, first trip out as a CC'er?, or just 1st trip out with a new system?
AND SOME COMMENTS:
1. Yes, practicing with actual cards is a Must Do. As is practicing with noise and distractions, again, Congrats.
2. Practicing with actual chips probably a good idea as well...would look funny to the pit you sitting there trying to click a "Mouse" that was not present. Do not totally discount the computer stuff, will be of more value in terms of speed (and options) as you advance you skills. For example, if you use a computer at work, providing the screen is not visible to the hallway, you can be practicing various BJ modalities, while appearing to your boss that you are labouring for hours on some project!
AND MANY POSSIBLE ANSWERS to "What am I looking for"?
1. Characteristics of THE PERFECT GAME:
-----A. 100% Penetration...run out of cards, no problem, we will reshuffle the discards and keep on playing.
-----B. Great Rules...not necessarily in order, but DS17, DAS, RSA's, LS, Spl. to 4, DOA....and since this is pretty much fantasy, throw in a few "wildcards" such as Early Surrender and 6-card 21 beats Dealer BJ.
-----C. Tolerance...Casino's will tolerate WIDE spreads, realizing that the MOST CC'ers DO NOT HAVE THE B/R for same, thus, even with Expert Skill, will ultimately give it back...any many of these, being Human, will STEAM/TILT, and give even more back. All-the-while, their friends and co-workers, having heard of said CC'ers wins (but usually not losses), will flock to said stores, without skill, etc., etc.
-----D. Easy Comps...important to many.
2. SD is better for the Player (less -EV, easier to count), 6D is what the true Pro's play (less HEAT, and even EASIER TO COUNT, since usually dealt face-up). So DD must be best?...not necessarily...DEPENDS on PENETRATION, RULES, TOLERANCE, +/- COMPS (if important to you). No one best answer as to what you should be looking for...so many variables!
Hope this helps some. Again, post a few more "GENERAL Specifics", and some of us may be able to help even more!
Phantom007.
Damn, there it is right below!
Posted by phantom007 on 03-May-2005 09:08:36 (#12917)
Ever since I took the Evlin Woody Sped Read'n course, ah has been hav'n a trouble read'n from down there to up here.
Oh well, sigh.
Phantom007.
Re: What the true pro's play?
Posted by T21 on 04-May-2005 11:07:01 (#12922)
Phantom007,
In your second to last post in this message thread, you state a 6D game is what the true pros play.
How do you come up with that idea?
What is a proffessional to you?
There are many aspect of a cc that makes him a pro.
1. He can count the cards. (Pick a system)
2. Being able to camouflage his play
3. Master wonging
4. Picking the right games to exploit
5. Understanding his/her risk of ruin and betting accordingly
6. He can read people and understand when the heat is on/off
7. He can enjoy 5% or more advantage on the house table jumping
I'm not saying that proffessionals don't play 6D games. I believe that a proffessional is someone who does the above and when preperation meets opprotunity he does well. I think couting a six deck shoe is almost as easy as counting a DD game. Now I know it's a little bit harder, but why work harder when I can have a better percentage utilizing all of the above. Also, with the above you can make more money in a shorter amount of time. You don't have to work harder to be a pro.
T21
one answer
Posted by stainless steel rat on 04-May-2005 16:19:27 (#12923)
Pros like shoes, because many pros play on teams. SD/DD games generally don't let you wong in and out on a whim, while some shoe games do. If you want to call in a big player, it (a) takes time and (b) requires approval (i.e. no "no mid-shoe entry allowed"). Even if you could wong in on a good SD/DD game, by the time you get your big player in, the count has already gone south...
I personally play SD/DD 90% of the time, but then I'm not a "pro". I just like winning as much as possible, usually by myself, and those are the most beatable games assuming you know what to shop around and look for...
Of course, it is fun to wong in on a good shoe game, but I personally hate playing at crowded tables, and most shoes are that...
Advanced AP
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 04-May-2005 18:04:24 (#12925)
There are also the advanced techniques of shuffle tracking and ace sequences that are often more suited to shoe play. Plus the lack of heat and tolerance of large action. Sure, a silver or red player can have a lot of fun with SD in Reno but it's hard to be a pro playing silver or red. I can't imagine spreading black anywhere but a big place on the Strip or AC.
would not argue
Posted by stainless steel rat on 04-May-2005 19:33:35 (#12926)
with that. I've done elementary shuffle tracking, discovered the idea at an indian casino with a very simple shuffle.
I'm generally a red player (5-40 on DD for an example although I have played 25-100 as well.) I have played black twice in my life, once on a big winning streak in a decent DD game, once in Vegas as a smart-alec response to my wife.
As you can guess, I really don't know much about what goes on at the multiple-black level. Biggest single hand I have ever played was for $800, that at a $100 DD game, with three splits and doubles on all 4 hands. I've found I can make a fair amount of money at the current level I generally play, have a lot of fun, and play as much as I feel like playing. Biggest single-session win was almost $10,000 this past late summer/early fall, biggest single session loss was about $700 in Vegas last summer, where I played off and on for a week and ended up $500 in the hole. :)
I have probably had more "trouble" (heat) at $25 tables. But I have had my fair share at a $5 table as well although for at least a year, I have been playing a bit "wiser" (no 8 hour non-stop sessions) which has cut down the interactions with the pit...
I can only guess what a black (or purple) chip player would have to deal with. I'm not sure I'll ever find out. :)
FIRST a PROFFESIONAL will at least spell PROFESIONAL Right......
Posted by phantom007 on 06-May-2005 09:24:30 (#12928)
Second, MD is preferred by most of the Names, i.e., the Mayor, Schlesinger, Wong, etc., in that there are much more Wonging opportunities.
With this said, please get your GED, then re-Post in a few years.
ph.7.
You mean PROFESSIONAL? *NM*
Posted by Anonymous on 06-May-2005 10:23:43 (#12929)
Review of posting guidelines...
Posted by The Mayor on 06-May-2005 13:31:29 (#12933)
From the posting guidelines:
"Also, on a human note, I ask that each of us be patient, not take things too personally, and always try and be as helpful as possible in our posts. Please allow others to be human. Little things like spelling or grammar are just not important. Happy posting!"
Posting Guidelines
Posted by suicyco maniac on 06-May-2005 21:30:56 (#12936)
>Little things like spelling or grammar are just not important. Happy posting!
Thank god!!!! I would never be allowed to post anything if that were the case. SM
Please Accept Apology.....But I am just quite BITCHY Right Now!.....
Posted by phantom007 on 07-May-2005 10:46:35 (#12940)
Dear Poster:
I am going through Divorce, stupidly "signed-off" on an Interim agreement, wherein I send Satan 80% of my take-home pay, and am now having to work extra P/T jobs "just to pay the bills". I agreed to this agreement ONLY because I thought Divorce would take 2-3 months...now, I am into Month 12!
Anyhow, I take most any ATTACK....Personally. Not your problem!
Sorry if I flamed you. I APOLOGIZE!
Sorry if I offended this Board. I APOLOGIZE!
BUT THE GOOD NEWS:
1. I saved LOTS of $$$ by switching my Car Insurance to Geico!
2. Satan GOT A JOB!!!! Not official, as far as the Courts go, but from one of my kids, I now have Information/knowledge/belief that with her #2 BS Degrees, plus CPA and CFE Certification, AT LEAST SHE IS F#CKING EMPLOYABLE!
3. However, I still do not understand "Clump Countint" for SD...Please advise.
phantom007.
Been there, done that...
Posted by The Mayor on 10-May-2005 09:38:22 (#12957)
Satan gave me a 65k lawsuit as a wedding present when I remarried.
It's important for the eye to see correct spelling..
Posted by North Wind on 01-Jul-2005 11:51:39 (#13420)
especially if you are a poor speller. Otherwise, others are going to
start questioning their own correct spelling. The person corrected, might
feel a slight embarrassment,and will not likely make the same mistake
again. I'm sure we all subscribe to higher standards and need a friendly reminder now and then. Fuzzy thinking and poor presentation will soon
illicit ridicule.
My education really began when I started to post on the
internet, where nothing goes unchallenged, and rightly so.
Grammar
Posted by Counter Culture on 01-Jul-2005 22:15:36 (#13425)
especially if you are a poor speller.>(This is a sentence fragment with no subject, and no caps.) Otherwise,(no comma needed) others are going to
start questioning their own correct spelling. The person corrected,(again no comma needed) might
feel a slight embarrassment,and will not likely make the same mistake
again. I'm sure we all subscribe to higher standards and need a friendly reminder now and then. Fuzzy thinking and poor presentation will soon
illicit ridicule.
My education really began when I started to post on the
internet, where nothing goes unchallenged, and rightly so. (definite run-on)
LoL,
Peace Out
Your illicit spelling may elicit ridicule *NM*
Posted by BJforBooze on 08-Jul-2005 06:04:37 (#13482)
Thanks!
Posted by North Wind on 10-Jul-2005 23:27:53 (#13500)
I'll work on my commas. When your my age, you take a lot of pauses.
Before the internet, I didn't have access to soo many experts. What a
wonderful world.
I had quite a different reaction to T21's post
Posted by The Mayor on 06-May-2005 13:26:22 (#12932)
T21 seemed to be someone with genuine experience.
My own take on this debate is that "normal" blackjack is not what professionals play, so the question is moot. Which 6D games have a trackable shuffle? WHich single deck games have hole card flashers? Which double deck games have advantageous side bets?
The truth is that pros know things that most others don't, and their choices are based on a level of skill that recognizes and exploits opportunities, however and whereever they arise.
This is spoken from a non-pro. But I know many pros, and none of them, not a single one, just play blackjack.
--Mayor
On the radio Thursday
Posted by The Mayor on 03-May-2005 20:21:26 (#12919)
The topic this Thursday will be blackjack scams.
Thursday, 6PM PST -- click that link to the left with that guy's face on it.
--Mayor
Belated thanks... *LINK*
Posted by Viktor Nacht on 05-May-2005 13:27:01 (#12927)
to Eliot for this month's Podium, and to zengrifter for posting a more accurate report of the open night blackjack conditions at Wynn.
We would have done a better job were we not hypnotized by the carpet. Or the fact is was 3 A.M.
Good Cards,
V
Andy Bloch DVD *LINK*
Posted by Sonny on 06-May-2005 11:18:08 (#12930)
On sale on eBay no less! Is this a reputable DVD on the basics of playing or has he sold out here? I get the feeling that he's not giving up all of the MIT secrets as the ad proclaims.
Here are a few of my favorite bits:
"In this one of a kind DVD, Andy tells all about card counting, black jack strategy and how to improve your chance of winning by 20%. That s right 20%."
That sounds pretty good. I'm only winning about 51% of my sessions now. Imagine if I could win 20% more often!
"Virtually eliminate the house advantage by knowing what to do and when to do it."
Wow, if I learn this system I can ALMOST overcome the house edge...then I'll get rich!
"Also included with this video are Andy's personal strategy charts."
Does anyone else smell a John Partick style "liberal basic strategy" here? So what's the deal? Have we lost another AP to the dark side?
-Sonny-
Surprising
Posted by SammyBoy on 06-May-2005 12:09:53 (#12931)
That Andy Bloch would be asscoiated with something like this. I can understand him making a video or selling a book, but the marketing claims on the ebay listing are ridiculous.
From the ebay listing:
Andy Bloch is banned from 367 Casinos worldwide and has made millions with his MIT Card Counting Team. The knowledge in this video has been the subject of the best selling book, Bringing Down the House.
Also included with this video are Andy s personal strategy charts.
Learn from the best and make millions!
I often visit his website andybloch.com, I'll post a message asking about it.
Maybe not his intention
Posted by Sonny on 06-May-2005 16:19:32 (#12935)
> I can understand him making a video or selling a book, but the marketing
> claims on the ebay listing are ridiculous.
I agree. He probably made the video and included the basic strategy/card counting concepts without knowing what sort of marketing would be attached. It's probably a decent video for beginners but it is really cheapened by the advertisement. The distributor is probably just trying to cash in on his name and reputation.
-Sonny-
watch your math.
Posted by stainless steel rat on 06-May-2005 14:02:59 (#12934)
statisticians often mislead with this 20% better stuff.
For example, if you win 40% of your hands, someone could say "I can improve your win rate 20%". That could mean your win rate goes to 60%, as you guessed, or it could mean your win rate goes to 48%, which is a 20% improvement over 40%. :)
There are other ways to make such percentages imply something far better than they actually produce.
Percentage Increase
Posted by MrPill on 08-May-2005 07:37:11 (#12943)
SSR,
I don't see where Sonny stated what his final win rate would be, only that it would be significantly better.
I would agree with both of you that 51% x 1.2 (20% increase) would be 61.2%, which would be significantly better if true.
Pill
A B's DVD was according to a good source
Posted by dali-lama on 12-May-2005 04:59:01 (#12976)
...crap.....It covers B.S. and the hi-lo count
only. No useful info for APs
I would assume
Posted by stainless steel rat on 12-May-2005 09:49:17 (#12979)
it isn't targeted to APs anyway.
:)
High Roller now on video *LINK*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 06-May-2005 22:05:24 (#12937)
the true life story of Stu Ungar,
poker,blackjack and gin rummy expert, they did not show any
blackjack
scenes but the movie is really worth a rental for sure. What a life
,what talent,the movie
protrayed the evils of gambling more than the drugs and that a darn shame
also the
guy playing Stu could have been better and did not look
like him a all.
- also a great story
on Stu in the new card player
available at 7/11,which did mention his blackjack skills.
Good idea Mayor as I now you said you seen it, they changed the name from
Stuey to high roller.
link and more info
Posted by eyesfor21 on 07-May-2005 10:59:07 (#12941)
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/10002994-high_roller_the_stu_ungar_story/
Reading people, counting cards, however it was done, there's only a little of it on display in Stuey. Here's a man whose cockiness for showing off his talents got him locked out of underground games and eventually the big rooms in Vegas. Stu's relationship with Bob Stupak (designer of Vegas' Stratosphere) began when he counted down the final 156 cards of a six-deck shuffle without missing a beat. It was the beginning of a beautiful friendship where Stupak would later bankroll Stuey. An anonymous benefactor who produced ten grand for Stu to re-enter the World Series at the 11th hour after nearly a decade out of the game is hinted at, but this interesting foray into his life is whittled down in scope to encounters with Mr. Leo (nicely played by Pat Morita) and a local player named DJ (Joe LaDue, also doing an admirable job.)
Two sidebets for the price of one
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-May-2005 06:32:42 (#12938)
Had a funny experience tonight. I was playing in a casino that offers both the Super Sevens and the Match the Dealer sidebet on different tables. If other people at the table are playing them I will occasionally and at random bet a dollar on the sidebet to fit in better with the crowd.
So the sidebet at this table was the Match the Dealer, I had a dollar out, got a 7 on the first card and the non-English speaking dealer paid me as if it was a Super Sevens bet. Cool, I thought. I can keep on playing, getting paid on the 7's until I match the dealer at which time I would remind the dealer that he owes me payment on my sidebet, and up to that point I would be getting effectively close to the sum of the payoffs on both sidebets. I didn't make a significant amount of money on it but it was kind of fun playing a sidebet with around 80% advantage.
Super 7's
Posted by The Mayor on 08-May-2005 22:29:56 (#12946)
Super sevens are good... 8-)
Finally took a Big BJ Step!...subscribed to LV Advisor...
Posted by phantom007 on 07-May-2005 10:14:41 (#12939)
For years, I have read books and seen posts, re: The Value of Coupons, or credit to LV Bear, Couponomy. Likewise, I often see posts as regarding "good info." from LVA. Granted, I usually hit LV just once a year, but likely can go back in both Oct. and Dec. of this year, for a total of 3 trips, and hopefully 2006 will allow 5-6 trips.
My purchase offered me the '05 or '06 Coupon option...I of course, chose the '05, likely meaning that I will have to re-up early next to year to get '06 coupons (Note: I am making many presumptions, but mostly that said coupons are good only until year-end). While I have not yet rec'd my mailing, total value of said coupons is advertised at circa. $3,300.!
I suspect that the Coupons will include:
(1) Lots of $5-10 Matchplays, and hopefully, at least a few 2:1 BJ Coupons (Bring on the 6:5 Tables! I got a 2:1 Coupon!).
(2) Lots of "2-for-1" All-You-Can-Eat Buffets (little value since I am usually a solo act....though, I do still owe ZG a dinner!).
(3) Lots of Hotel Room discounts and/or Buy-one & Get-one free...started to write these off as nearly worthless, since I usually "stay for free". However, as I study my own BJ Faults, i.e., Camp-Out/Comp-Whore/Play-Too-Long/Get Backed-Off....Maybe I should start paying my way! (Value = NOT playing the Mandatory 4 hr. min. at your Host's store, while usually UNDERSPREADING, just so as to "keep the Comp's-a-coming", while all-the-while, OVEREXPOSING your playing style to those interested).
(4) Rental Car Discounts. I usually do the "Taxi Thing", i.e., $25 from Airport to DT, $12 DT to Circus, $20 Circus to DT (what is wrong with this picture?)....obviously, cheap rental car needed for us Tourists playing the Coupons. (Tips alone should cover the cost of a 1-week rental!...No more tipping one guy/gal a buck to wave-in your cab, then another buck to open the door, then 20% of the fare to the Cabby, then God-forbid, anyone carries in anything for you...$2/bag).
(5) Free Stuff. Hats, T-shirts, key-chains, etc. (CHRISTMAS SHOPPING DONE! OK, the kids on Medicaid/Welfare/Foodstamps will make fun of my kids, who come to school wearing Ceasar's Windbreaker over Hilton T-shirt over Silverton Sweats, while carrying keys on a Slots-a-Fun Keychain, etc.....BUT I GET THE LAST LAUGH!.....as a Taxpayer, I had to pay for your stuff....BUT MY KID's STUFF IS NEARLY FREE!). This section probably belongs in the "ZenZone".
(6) Coupons that I probably cannot/will not use:
-----Free or Discounted Shows...I ain't in LV to see shows.
-----Discounted Massages...With Coupon, $300. discounted to $150. for the TOTAL BODY Massage...BTW, I am ticklish!...skip the "Total Body" and for $50., concentrate on the "007", and lower the price by 2/3's, and "Here is my coupon".
-----Tours, Helicoptor rides, Hoover Dam, Grand Canyon.
-----Anything involving a TIME-SHARE Pitch!.
(7) Coupons that I would like to see:
-----Good Old Fashioned SD BJ with Deep Pen. and Great Rules, for 10 hours, upon presentation of this Coupon.
-----NBO Coupon...NO BACK-OFF Coupon...place said Coupon under your stack of chips, and guarantee NBO for 8 hrs.
-----DEFENDER/SMART BOMB Coupon....late 70's to mid-80's, "Defender" was a popular video game. One option was a few "SMART-BOMBS", i.e., when you are surrounded and without hope, fire-off a Smart-Bomb...it obliterates all attackers within the immediate vicinity.....SB-Coupon could be used against PC's, Survl., and Ploppies alike.
So in closing, I, Ph.007, will soon possess valuable coupons! Looking to trade Coupons noted in #6 above, for MatchPlay, 2:1 BJ, etc.
Hell, will even throw-in my "Free Prostate Massage" Coupon, valid ONLY in the backseat of a Rental Car, and in the Western's Parking Lot, if that is what it takes to make the DEAL!
phantom007.
Total waste for...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-May-2005 15:37:06 (#12942)
... greenchippers and up. The good coupos ended two years ago! zg
Now Hold On Here......
Posted by phantom007 on 09-May-2005 01:12:29 (#12948)
Just got my Coupon Book in the Mail! Yes, no more of those nice 2:1 BJ's for one hour, like Barfy wrote about. However:
1. Matchplays add up to circa. $150. (quick glance), so even if I win only 40% of these bets, I have at least paid for my subscription.
2. $20.05/day Payless Car Rental Coupon! Off the top, saves me $30. in ave. LV trip taxi expenses, then add in tips, then realize, NOW I CAN afford to go to Silverton!
3. I can now get more FUNBOOKS! Probably could have before, but at least now I know where to get them at!
4. Shows/Rides/Attractions....NO VALUE to me...again, will trade most/all for a couple of $5 Matchplay's!
5. Unlimited Drinks for 2/Ellis Island....THIS ONE is MINE, ALL MINE, and for the BOTH of US...the nice thing about being Schizophrenic is that YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!
6. Dining/Buffets....as I suspected, all Buffet Coupons are 2-for-1. Little value to the Solo AP! All-I-Can Eat does not change, whether, 1:1 or 2:1. However, a few 50%-off Coupons for regular places, AND FREE Champagne' Brunch at Gold Strike! ZG, I still promised to buy you dinner...your call, Gold Strike or Roberta's?!
7. Free/2:1 Hotel Rooms...There is potential here! Pay $30. for one night at the GS, and get the 2nd night FREE! $15./night a cheap price for NOT HAVING TO OVEREXPOSE ONE's self to your HOST's Survellience!, who is, Prima Faciae', going to be watching you intently, to be sure you DESERVE YOUR FREE STUFF!
8. $50.-OFF your First PALMS Experience...THIS WAS MY FIRST EXPERIENCE! And it was FREE! Oh, I see, in the fine print, buy something, and get up to $50. off. This makes more sense!
9. Kid's Quest Coupon, pay for 2 hours, and get one Free...DAMN PEDOPHILES!
So, in closing, I figure that I can at least break even with my LVA subscription. Add-in info., and likely, will get ahead! Also, with a admittedly brief review, appears that LVA is the "CBJN" of VP conditions.
COUPONS that I would LIKE TO SEE in 2006 include:
A. Free Lap Dance-Palamino's.
B. BJ Pays 3:2 for One Hour-ANY 6:5 SD table.
C. I still like my "Smart-Bomb" idea posted previously.
phantom007.
Not strictly a total waste,
Posted by blueeyedsamurai on 09-May-2005 10:42:54 (#12950)
sadly the coupons are not so great (gambling wise) aa they once were, but for those that play without being rated the discounted rooms will sure come in handy.
I rest my case! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 09-May-2005 12:42:53 (#12952)
And whose fault was that? *grin*
Posted by Theef on 09-May-2005 13:18:23 (#12953)
The one I miss most was the Golden Gate's "2:1 BJ For An Hour." I enjoyed being able to sit back and play BS heads-up from a CSM and still have an advantage, for a full sixty minutes, and then go have a Shrimp 'n' Ketchup. I swear they would bring in the slowest dealer in the joint, though.
Mea Culpa! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 10-May-2005 18:42:59 (#12960)
OH!... and yours too...
Posted by zengrifter on 13-May-2005 19:16:59 (#13005)
... I know recall meeting you at LVClub in 2002 - you had LVA and CP books on you. zg
I need to go to Vegas
Posted by Learning to count on 08-May-2005 19:57:38 (#12944)
Whew its been a year since my last trip. A lot has happenned since then. How have the games been? Is the heat up or are there any "good" games out there. I guess I will be pounding the yellow brick strip soon. Long time passing its time to ante up.
The Yellow brick road is long
Posted by T21 on 08-May-2005 20:59:24 (#12945)
While you're here, have a fun time and remember to look for the best rules you can find in Vegas. You'll probally have best luck finding a good DD game in town, unless you head downtown.
A short term run like this will have you telling us about how good the cards were, or how the drunk caused you to loose a big bet w/a double down, or how "the dealer kept pulling 21's", and "I had 20". It's over time that you'll be a winner if you *do the right things*
You will have to learn both by play the book and real life experiences. For you veterans it's not experience that has to do with math, but everything else that comes after "knowing how to count cards."
Anyway, have fun. Remember, that to become a proffessional blackjack player, you would probally make more money doing somthing else. Have fun and you'll still be better than most other players and maybe you'll win, and you will, if you have the right game to play, bank-roll, spread, hours at the table, and the correct play w/money management. You have an excellent shot!!! It's just not 100% without all the right things to comming together.
T21
You're right I have a lot to learn! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 09-May-2005 21:30:20 (#12955)
Mega-Ditto's....Good to see you posting again...
Posted by phantom007 on 09-May-2005 00:09:53 (#12947)
Where in the H#ll have you been? Hope all is well! Sorry I could not meet you last October...we were literally 2 hours apart...DAMN JOB! Both supports and Causes my Gambling Problem!
LTC, you had not posted for so long, that I figured you did something STUPID, like get remarried.
Personally, hoping to be Single by late June...should increase personal +EV as well as open up chances for more trips, Tunica, Biloxi, LV....need to check out Reno!
Just literally finished tonight some Interrogatories sent by my Beloved's Divorce Lawyer...they want to know all of my gambling expenses, wins/losses, etc., and since 2000! Wonder if the Judge will understand Comps, RFB, Cash-back coupons, etc.? Wonder if the Judge will believe that in most recent years, I have won and LOST close to $1M? Wonder if Judge will believe that I almost never paid for RFB?
Will be so much easier when I am single! When others ask how I did last trip, the basic code will be:
---"Won a little" means "Ain't got to work for 3 months!".
---"Came out about even" means "Comps offset losses!".
---"Just a little behind" means "Had a statistically expected negative flux."
---"Lost my Shirt" means "Got 86'd before I could use my FREE T-shirt Coupon!"
LTC, please keep in touch, and keep posting!
Phantom007.
I'm Back and hungry! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 09-May-2005 21:33:39 (#12956)
DD Downtown
Posted by MrPill on 09-May-2005 12:06:21 (#12951)
LTC,
Some good DD has returned downtown and Harrah's no longer has any stake in the Shoe.
Just got back from a 6 day trip a short while back.
Welcome Back,
Pill
Unbalanced systems
Posted by NYCBIZ on 09-May-2005 08:33:38 (#12949)
Good morning,
Although at some point I've tried all three of these, does anyone feel strongly that one is superior to the others?
-KO Preferred
-Snyder's Red 7 count
-Stage III KISS Count in Blackjack Bluebook II
By the way, ZG, I enjoyed run into you Saturday afternoon and playing with an experienced player during the brief session downtown.
Likewise...
Posted by zengrifter on 09-May-2005 17:40:32 (#12954)
... your error, btw, was that if your topBet is $50, then your minimum at the 1D game would be $10 and at 2D, $5.
Also, the KO 'entry-point' for that confidential side bet would be +7.
As for the 3 systems that you cite, there is NO DIFFERENCE in power between them that can be subjectively ascertained in casino play - they are equal - and they are equal to any level-1 balanced count as well.
Drop me a line in advance before the next time you come out! zg
COMPARING THE PERFORMANCE OF BALANCED vs. UNBALANCED COUNTING SYSTEMS
Posted by zengrifter on 11-May-2005 19:28:04 (#12967)
POSTED BY PERMISSION OF HENRY TAMBURIN,
PUBLISHER OF THE BLACKJACK INSIDER NEWSLETTER
Blackjack Insider Newsletter, April 2002, #29
http://www.bjinsider.com/newsletter_29.shtml
COMPARING THE PERFORMANCE OF BALANCED vs. UNBALANCED COUNTING SYSTEMS
BY FRED RENZEY
When "unbalanced" card counting arrived on the scene about fifteen years ago, it opened up the door for a multitude of losing blackjack players to become winners at the game. These new "contenders" for the casinos' money were players who until then just couldn't quite master the full rigors of traditional card counting.
It wasn't that adding and subtracting points for high and low cards were so tricky. And it wasn't that memorizing how much to bet at various counts was too much to handle. No! What knocked 90% of the would-be successful card counters out of the box was converting the "running count" to the "true count". For most, this was just too much mental gymnastics! First, you had to keep a running count of high vs. low cards. Then you needed to divide that running count by the number (or fraction) of decks that remained before playing your hand and sizing your next bet. And finally, you had to revert back to the running count and update it once the dealer began dealing the next hand. That was the problem!
Then in the early 80's, Arnold Snyder of Blackbelt in Blackjack fame introduced his Red 7 Count. For its first dozen years, it never received the recognition it deserved. It just seemed like a " squirrelly" concept. I mean, why would you want to count only the red 7's and not the black ones? Snyder had an excellent reason.
By unbalancing the traditional Hi/Lo Count to include the red 7's as low cards along with all the 2's through 6's, the player had himself a built in, reasonably accurate true count calibrator. Using the unbalanced Red 7 system, the "running count" was in fact a close approximation of the "true count"! That meant no more converting to play your hands or to bet your chips. All was done strictly by the running count!
It wasn't long before other unbalanced count variations followed. But until the advent of home blackjack analysis software in the 1990's, it wasn't clearly known that unbalanced counts were a legitimate item and could actually cut the mustard. That's when unbalanced card counts became a hot commodity. Today, another unbalanced system, the KO Count challenges the old tried and true Hi/Lo Count for most widely used count system in play.
SPLITTING THE HAIRS OF PERFORMANCE
So what about it? If unbalanced card counting can win at blackjack without the tedium of true count converting, just how well does it perform next to its balanced counterpart? As it turns out, the answer lies in how many decks you're using.
You see, unbalanced card counts merely estimate your true count. The fewer cards that are involved, the more inaccurate (proportionally) they become. An unbalanced counting system's Achilles' heel, if it has one is the single deck game. Being only approximately accurate there is a tangible flaw -- but not a fatal one.
To learn just how these two types of card counts fare against each other, I ran 2.8 billion simulated blackjack hands with Stanford Wong's Blackjack Count Analyzer. 200 million hands each were run with three different single level unbalanced counts along side the standard balanced Hi/Lo Count in single deck play. This exercise was then repeated for double deck, and finally another 300 million hands each were run with the six-deck shoe. The three unbalanced systems were Snyder's Red 7 Count from his Blackbelt in Blackjack, Fuchs and Vancura's KO Count from their popular Knockout Blackjack and the StageII Black Ace Count from my own Blackjack Bluebook. All four of the systems tested are described below.
COUNT COUNT C A R D T A G S RANKS BET PLAY
NAME TYPE 2 thru 6 r7 b7 8 9 10 bA rA COUNTED CORR. EFF.
Hi/Lo balanced +1 0 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 10 97% 51%
Blk Ace unbal. +1 0 0 0 0 -1 -1 0 9.5 93.5% 55.5%
Red 7 unbal. +1 +1 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 10.5 97% 53%
KO unbal. +1 +1 +1 0 0 -1 -1 -1 11 97.5% 55%
The Hi/Lo Count tracks five low ranks of cards (2's thru 6's) and five high ranks (10's thru Aces), thus it is a balanced card count. The Black Ace Count mimics the Hi/Lo, but drops the red Aces right out of its count, thereby unbalancing it for "auto-calibrating" purposes. The Red 7 Count goes the opposite direction by shadowing the Hi/Lo, then throwing in the two red 7's as low cards to accomplish its unbalancing objective. The KO Count takes it one small step further by tracking all 2's thru 7's against the 10's and Aces. In doing this, it unbalances its count by one full rank of cards.
Whether a single level unbalanced count should be "offset" by a half rank or a full rank of cards can be argued, but I believe a half rank offset takes better advantage of the reason you unbalance a count to begin with. Here's the reason for my stance. All unbalanced counts are perfectly accurate at having their running count indicate the true count at one particular point -- and at that point only. As their running counts stray away from that particular point, inaccuracy begins to set in and increases the further away you get. With unbalanced counts that have a half rank offset, the running count will indicate to perfection whenever you have a true count of +2. Unbalanced counts with a full rank offset are perfect at telling you when your true count is +4.
In short, when using the Red 7 Count (half rank offset) in a two deck game, whenever your running count has risen four points above your starting count, you'll have a true count of exactly +2 -- regardless of how many cards have been played out. But a running count eight points above your starting count won't necessarily be +4 true. It may be +5 true or even +7 true depending upon your current depth into the deck.
Conversely with the KO Count (full rank offset), a running count eight points above your starting count will always be exactly +4 true. But a running count 4 points above your starting count rather than being +2 true, could be +1 true and maybe even -1 true, again depending upon where you are in the deck.
Since +2 true is near the threshold of where your player edge begins and since it occurs much more often than +4 true, that's the point I'd want to be more sure of. Also, a greater number of basic strategy departures kick in around +2 rather than at +4 true. For these reasons, I believe a half rank offset makes better use of what unbalanced counts do best.
TEST METHODOLOGY
To be sure of comparing apples to apples in my computer runs, a major criterion was to keep the hourly standard deviation at the same level for all four counting systems. That is, I wanted to ensure that we were risking the same amount of bankroll dollars in all cases. This necessitated using a slower betting ramp in systems with a higher betting correlation due to their more frequent recognition of advantageous deck compositions. The net effect was that each system reached its maximum bet the same percentage of times and at about the same percentage of net advantage -- though not at the same true count. (This makes sense when you think about it since a +3 true count with the Black Ace system yields a greater edge than a +3 true count with the KO system, although the KO system will produce a +3 true count more often. This is true because more expansive count systems track more cards, therefore finding more advantageous situations. However, its extra tracked cards are generally the less important ones so that a shortage of six 2's thru 7's matters less than a shortage of six 2's thru 6's. Still, the overall betting spreads remained identical with all systems, as did the average bet size.)
Table I compares the performances for single deck play.
TABLE I
SINGLE DECK PERFORMANCES
COUNT SYSTEM HI/LO BLK. ACE RED 7 KO
BETTING SPREAD $25-$75 $25-$75 $25-$75 $25-$75
AVERAGE BET $49 $49 $49 $49
STANDARD DEV./HR. $461 $461 $461 $461
NET GAIN % 0.95% 0.80% 0.82% 0.83%
HOURLY WIN (100 hands) $47 $40 $41 $41
40,000 HAND WIN PROB. 98% 96% 96% 96%
Rules for the test were; S17, DOA, NO DAS, NO SR. The shuffle point came when 25 or fewer cards remained. The standard error for the percentage gain of each system was less than 0.01%. All systems were played at a three-handed table and the counter bet $50 off the top of each deck, then went to $25 or $75 depending upon the count. The Hi/Lo Count employed strategy departures at all true counts from -4 to +8 (using 61 index numbers). All three unbalanced counts used 22 hand calculated indices -- the most negative of which was 12 against a 6 and the most positive being 16 against a 9 -- and all were activated strictly by the running count. The bottom column in the table, "40,000 Hand Win Probability" represents the players chance to be ahead of the game after roughly 400 hours of play.
There's one last significant point I need to bring up. In analyzing half rank offset unbalanced counts (such as the Red 7), Wong's software forces you to count all the 7's as +0.5 rather than half the 7's as +1. In essence then, it's actually testing a system with 98.5% and 54% efficiency ratings rather than the 97% and 53% ratings that the Red 7 actually carries. Similarly, the Black Ace Count actually brought 95% and 56.5% ratings into its simulation test rather than its true 93.5% and 55.5% strengths. Realizing this, I reviewed the relative performances of several different half rank unbalanced counts and correlated their performances with their efficiency ratings. Doing this revealed that for every percentage point you increase betting correlation and playing efficiency among the same species of system, its performance tends to improve by about 0.02%. Consequently, the net percentage gains reported in Table I for the Black Ace Count and the Red 7 Count have both already been adjusted downward by 0.03% to account for their probable decreased performance had they been tested in their literal forms. Their reported net dollar earnings and 40,000 hand win probabilities have also been decreased using similar extrapolations.
SINGLE DECK SUMMARY: Although the balanced Hi/Lo Count clearly outperformed all of its unbalanced counterparts, it didn't do it by a remarkable margin. The thing to keep in mind is that single deck play is the most demanding blackjack of all. Realistically, no human can play it as accurately as a computer since you're always estimating how many fractions of a deck are left and your true count division efforts are always rounded off. Whereas the computer plays each unbalanced system strictly by the running count, the same as any human would. One has to wonder after all the remaining deck estimations and division-rounding errors are factored in, how much difference would actually be left in the real world. One fact must be true: Only if the particular human using the balanced count did a more accurate job at true count converting than does an unbalanced structure, could there been anything left over at all! This I must admit even though I myself have been using a multi-level balanced count for the past 25 years.
Table II states the performances of each of the four systems for double deck play.
TABLE II
DOUBLE DECK PERFORMANCES
COUNT SYSTEM HI/LO BLK. ACE RED 7 KO
BETTING SPREAD $15-$90 $15-$90 $15-$90 $15-$90
AVERAGE BET $33 $33 $33 $33
STANDARD DEV./HR. $468 $468 $468 $468
NET GAIN % 0.74% 0.69% 0.74% 0.74%
HOURLY WIN (100 hands) $24 $22.50 $24 $24
40,000 HAND WIN PROB. 85% 84% 85% 84%
Rules were the same as for the single deck test. The shuffle came with 44 or fewer cards remaining. The player always came off the top with a $25 bet, and then moved upward or downward according to the count. No next bet was ever increased or decreased by more than a factor of three. Again, the Black Ace and Red 7 yields shown above have been lowered from 0.72% and 0.77% respectively in an effort to represent their actual performances most accurately (hourly wins were also adjusted upon the same basis).
DOUBLE DECK SUMMARY: Note how the performances of balanced vs. unbalanced counts here have bunched together. That's presumably because errors in unbalanced estimates of the true count are proportionally smaller and matter less when you're drawing from a larger supply
Through all of this, the fact remains that the vast majority of blackjack games are dealt from a shoe -- hence, Table III. The rules for the multi-deck shoe test were modified to allow doubling after splits -- all else remained unchanged. The shoe was shuffled with 94 or fewer cards remaining. The bet off the top of each shoe was $25 (6% of all hands). Also, as is advisable for shoe games, at any true count lower than -3 each player's wager was $0. This occurred 7% of the time. Because of the wider betting spread, 300 million hands with each system were needed to get the standard net gain error down to 0.01%. Finally, remember that 0.03% has already been deducted from the stated net gain percentages of the Black Ace and Red 7 Counts.
TABLE III
SIX DECK PERFORMANCES
COUNT SYSTEM HI/LO BLK. ACE RED 7 KO
BETTING SPREAD $10-$100 $10-$100 $10-$100 $10--$100
AVERAGE BET $26 $26 $26 $26
STANDARD DEV./HR. $464 $464 $464 $464
NET GAIN % 0.68% 0.63% 0.67% 0.65%
HOURLY WIN (100 hands) $18 $17 $18 $17.50
40,000 HAND WIN PROB. 79% 78% 79% 78%
All in all, I guess I'd have to say that unbalanced counts, if they're done right cut about 40% of the work out of card counting while retaining about 95% of the benefit.
---------------------
Editor's Note: Fred Renzey is an "advantage" blackjack player and author of the critically acclaimed "Blackjack Bluebook", a clearly detailed 188 page strategy manual for casino "21".
My sims give me somewhat different results
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-May-2005 21:06:20 (#12973)
Renzey says that the unbalanced counts are weaker at SD in increase in comparison to balanced counts as the number of decks increase and I've run some sims that show it to be the opposite.
The three systems I compared were Halves, RPC, and BRH-1 in running count mode. I generated my own index numbers and Kelly proportional spreads for them for every game, Illustrious 18 plus full surrender indices where surrender was available. In shoe games I used one deck resolution (which is the best I could ever do at the table, my deck estimation is so bad I actually have to ask the dealer if he's dealing SD or DD before I sit down!) half deck for DD and quarter deck for SD.
What I got was that in a 6D, S17, LS game with average pen and a 1:20 spread the three systems performed almost identically, within a percent or two of one another. Amazing. In DD and SD the BRH-1 starts to win out, probably because of my weak deck estimation and up at 8D the standard deviation of the BRH-1 is a little higher and the balanced systems performed a few percent better. The other place where the balanced systems (especially Halves) were noticeably better was in shoe games with unrealistically deep pen. This is all a matter of angels dancing on the head of a pin because the three systems give such similar performance that in a real lifetime in real games you couldn't expect to see a difference, but I'm curious as to why this wasn't observed in the other report. Maybe the level 3 is giving me an extra advantage? Maybe I did a more comprehensive sim? Or maybe I screwed up?
some comments
Posted by Sun Runner on 12-May-2005 09:05:11 (#12978)
> The other place where the balanced systems (especially Halves) were noticeably
> better was in shoe games with unrealistically deep pen.
If Mr Renzy quoted the pen used in his 6D study I missed it. But I suspect it was one that would make the results worthwhile.
> Maybe the level 3 is giving me an extra advantage?
You would hope so.
Documentary on Ken Uston on History Channel Tonight
Posted by Titaniumman on 10-May-2005 13:46:13 (#12958)
The History Channel will feature Blackjack Man about Ken Uston on Breaking Vegas at 9 pm EDT tonight.
great show tks..ken Uston movie NOW
Posted by eyesfor21 on 11-May-2005 10:42:59 (#12962)
http://www.thebigplayermovie.com/
Repeating on:
Posted by MrPill on 11-May-2005 11:16:41 (#12963)
For those that missed last nights (like me), the website says that the show will repeat on Sunday 5/15 @ 11PM, Monday 5/10 @ 3AM and Saturday 5/21 @ 5PM.
Pill
I wish
Posted by stainless steel rat on 11-May-2005 12:43:20 (#12964)
that a technical advisor could be used to avoid:
(1) counting down a deck and then having him take a long time and conclude that the last undealt card was a seven of clubs. Good counting system. I can't do that with Hi-Lo.
(2) probably tough to avoid showing the new Ben Franklins which didn't exist back then. But movie producers generally have a staff to make sure that such quirks don't happen. It would add to the thing to not wave red flags.
(3) If I were off by +3 in counting (the example with Ken and Al where Ken said +8, Al said +5, that's close enough for me) I'd be back to the CVdrills in a heartbeat...
(4) Apparently some of the scripting came from "The Big Player" as Al had previously said that the particular case of having pit bosses placing bets was not something that Ken did, but another big player on the team. Ken claimed credit in his book, but Al said "it didn't happen that way."
(5) I don't believe they caught on to the team as a result of that specific event either. I think it was just lots of detective work looking at videos to put players together, but I'll have to re-read "The Big Player" to refresh my memory.
(6) they initially talked about hi-lo, but I was under the impression that they didn't use hi-lo, but that could be my memory.
#6. Uston advanced system or
Posted by Victoria on 11-May-2005 15:31:31 (#12965)
something like that.
If memory of Million Dollar Blackjack serves me, his system was high low except the 2 was neutral and the seven was +1. More I think about it the surer I am.
Victoria
great documentary!! *NM*
Posted by T21 on 11-May-2005 18:59:30 (#12966)
In the early Francesco BP days...
Posted by zengrifter on 11-May-2005 19:37:36 (#12968)
... KU and the other top members used the Revere APM '74 version - level-4 Ace-nuetral count. zg
the uston apc
Posted by eyesfor21 on 11-May-2005 19:38:55 (#12969)
is a 3 level counting system counting every card except the two's.
It is ranked the highest for the best results compared to all the
others, but it is a little more diffcult to learn.
The indices are plenty too.
Perhaps we all should learn to change are routine now and then
favorite position, system.,etc.just like changing ones workout,
it can do wonders.
2's are counted +1 in UAPC *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 11-May-2005 20:25:58 (#12971)
Uston APC
Posted by BlackJackHack on 11-May-2005 20:39:38 (#12972)
I use this count regularly.
2 = +1
3 = +2
4 = +2
5 = +3
6 = +2
7 = +2
8 = +1
9 = -1
10 = -3
correct I meant the aces. *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 11-May-2005 22:07:49 (#12974)
probably, but...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 11-May-2005 19:39:21 (#12970)
that sounds reasonable for later on. But when he first started with Al, he didn't know squat about counting, but I am not sure what they used. I do seem to recall that at some point they were using a L2 count, because he talked about counting down a deck in 26 seconds or some such after he had some experience...
uston advanced plus minus system
Posted by Victoria on 12-May-2005 01:08:08 (#12975)
Had to check the book and he introduces the simple plus minus system I mentioned.
he had about 4 different systems
Posted by eyesfor21 on 12-May-2005 07:42:39 (#12977)
but the main one used is described above
by Blackjack hack
And how about...
Posted by Greasy John on 12-May-2005 09:57:15 (#12980)
Where they show the canopy of the FSE or the remodeled facade of the Golden Nugget. Reminds me of the scene in "Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man." This 1991 movie takes place in the future; the year is 1999, I believe. And they show the Dunes sign, which of course had already been imploded by that time.
no doubt
Posted by stainless steel rat on 12-May-2005 10:03:46 (#12981)
the next such 1970-1980 type production will show a view down the strip with Wynn visible. :) Not to mention the new MGM, etc.
these things on TV
Posted by Victoria on 12-May-2005 12:37:08 (#12982)
A few of the things besides those things already mentioned that I have noticed on about every blackjack documentary on tv is; they mainly only speak about the high low count, and do not speak about what it takes to play a winning game especially for an individual. This is understandable to me but perhaps misleading to the wannabe counter out there. It is not the history channels job to throw in things like indices and game selection and of course casinos are involved in these productions and you can not expect them to promote effective counting.
What I have already heard from a workmate, who knows I count, is that he never realized how easy it is. You know, it's just plus, minus and whenever it is very plus you bet more. Presto! He now thinks the local casino with bad penetration, H-17 and no surrender is his ATM! I have always felt that counting is the most basic and easiest part of AP, for many of us after a short period of time, it is automatic. I personally can not help it.
So now you get a similar result to Thorpe's book, but without even reading a book. A bunch of amatuer counters taking a bankroll (not based on any math) to casinos sure that are the next Ed Thorpe or Ken Uston, but perhaps armed with no real useful information. They count but have no clue about basic strategy. They count but have no deviations from basic strategy, which they do not know anyway. They count but have no idea of the importance of penetration, number of decks and rules. They count but do not know the difference between a running count and true count to formulate a bet. The one thing I am pretty sure of is that these guys count and have no need for cover because they will go home thinking counting does not work. They will be correct, because just counting does not work.
Final result of these shows is the casinos win more. Side result, there will be a small percentage of those who try who will take it further and learn.
Victoria
And it any of these...
Posted by Greasy John on 12-May-2005 13:04:36 (#12983)
wannabes was to get backed off they would wear that as a badge of honor. Of course, for the real counter, keeping ones talent disquised is the goal.
My opinion of backoffs
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-May-2005 13:47:20 (#12984)
I believe that backoffs are honorable in a way because if it never happens, you're probably not playing aggressively enough. It's just like being injured as an athlete; if it never happens you're not playing hard enough to be a pro. But you don't want it to happen so often that it shortens your career, and you don't want it to happen due to carelessness or ignorance. My first backoff was a relief to me because then I knew what was going to happen when backed off, so I wasn't afraid of it anymore.
Nice.
Posted by Sun Runner on 12-May-2005 13:50:38 (#12985)
> Final result of these shows is the casinos win more.
Excellent synopsis.
Unlike when BTD aired, the casino's are not hyper-ventilating for bad rule changes. They probably realize the value of shows like this and the added play of those you describe will only serve to keep the racks full and the tables open.
Like when BTD aired, the casion's are changing the rules because they are aware more ignorant players are coming to play.
6:5, H17, less surrender, poor pen, more ASMs, more CSMs, RFID, Mind Play, etc.
What's up with the "Blackjack Ball?" nm *NM*
Posted by Anthony on 10-May-2005 15:42:35 (#12959)
DITTO......
Posted by phantom007 on 12-May-2005 23:44:51 (#12993)
Seems like several weeks ago, I subscribed to said e-mailing list. I have heard nothing so far.
If I am invited, I had planned to wear a Phantom outfit, you know, flowing hood, cape, etc. with the BIG "007" on the back, so that any CC's, AP's, and/or PC's who wanted to meet me, could of course, do so. Have not totally figured out how to wear same while exiting "HOST" Casino, without being either "Cavity Searched" by Security, and/or being Hired for the Main Show!
Upon further reflection, I may dress as "Bill Clinton" and put the "007" Logo on my CROTCH! What better PHANTOM than B.C.? "BJ IS NOT SEX!" "Cigar in the p#ssy is NOT SEX!". ON THE ISSUES, HERE, THERE, and EVERYWHERE!
Anyhow, anxiously awaiting invite!
Phantom007.
Jess Marcum and the Early History of Card Counting
Posted by zengrifter on 10-May-2005 23:19:22 (#12961)
Jess Marcum, Mathematical Genius and Blackjack Legend,
And the Early History of Card Counting
By Allan Schaffer, Ph.D.
(Blackjack Forum Vol. XXIV #3, Summer 2005)
© 2005 Allan Schaffer
[Editor's Note: The thing that keeps striking me about Jess Marcum is the depth and intensity of respect and loyalty to him of the people who actually knew him and his achievements. Marcum didn't go for publicity or fame - he avoided it. He never published anything about his system. Yet 13 years after his death and over 50 years after his major accomplishments in card counting, he's still vividly remembered by the professional gamblers who were active in Las Vegas then as the smart guy who figured it out, as well as to his later friends. We are going to be documenting the history of those early days of card counting by publishing more articles on and by these early players in future issues of Blackjack Forum. - Arnold Snyder]
Jess Marcum developed a basic strategy for blackjack and was counting cards a decade before anyone else. Why is it then that not many of the members of today's gambling community have heard of him? The reason is basically because he was a very private person. In addition, throughout his active gambling career he endeavored to keep his accomplishments secret to protect the opportunities he had discovered.
... continued here - http://blackjackforumonline.com/content/JessMarcumEarlyDaysofCardCounting.htm
Great Article *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 12-May-2005 23:43:39 (#12992)
Excellent Card Counting Article by Scoblete, Really.
Posted by SammyBoy on 12-May-2005 16:14:18 (#12986)
http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/afraid.shtml
Very good
Posted by Sonny on 12-May-2005 17:32:08 (#12987)
I'm going to print that up and hand it out every time I get "the tap!"
-Sonny-
Speaking of 'GoldenTouch Craps', btw...
Posted by zengrifter on 12-May-2005 18:19:23 (#12988)
... Stanford Wong gave me a demo the other day in a downtown casino. I do believe that it works. zg
what's the advantage?
Posted by Garo on 12-May-2005 19:57:30 (#12989)
Grif-
I plan on buying the book and learning the system, but I am curious what the advantage is? More than 1%?
Green Chip?
Posted by SammyBoy on 12-May-2005 23:43:13 (#12991)
Garo,
If you join Green Chip at BJ21.com there is a forum for craps where Stanford post on a regular basis. There is some good info there. There are many variables to figuring the advantage, such as the types of wagers made. Someone that really controls the dice I would think would have an advantage much higher than 1%, but I'm not an expert on the subject.
Seems like it wouldn't take much to get an advantage
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-May-2005 12:27:16 (#12999)
If you can bias your roll slightly towards a 7 on come-out, and slightly away from a 7 when rolling for your point it shouldn't be hard to make a profit being the two effects are additive. The fact that the 4 and the 3 are opposite on another on a die is very useful to a dice controller who is capable of spinning the dice around this axis, and I'm predicting that if craps tables start losing hold the casinos will change the orientation of the faces on the dice they use.
That said, reading some of the dice control bumf they seem interested in taking the sucker bets on a craps table and I say- "Why?" If you really can control the dice you can make a ton of money on the Pass line, no reason I can see to assign any of your bankroll to the sucker bets even if you can get up to positive EV on them too. Maybe some of the sucker bets are like BJ sidebets in that they are terrible bets for a BS player but to a counter some of them can have huge EV's. But barring this it would be like playing a 6:5 BJ game when there's a legit DD table with good pen right next to it, just because you can also beat 6:5 isn't a good reason to do it. I'm not saying this to disparage dice control and it's teachers at all because they want to make money selling their books, and this is best done by making it appealing to the muggles as well as the AP-types, just that we should apply the critical eye of the AP to all facets of all games.
Wong told me that he ...
Posted by zengrifter on 13-May-2005 19:14:36 (#13004)
... is "not particulary talented" for such a physical skill and that he beleives his edge lies between 1-2%. Henry Tamburin told me that the "best ones may be exceeding 5%" zg
Much better than that!
Posted by Gorgon on 15-May-2005 12:38:10 (#13013)
The pro shooters can get the advantage up to around 12-15%.
yeah I got a system for slots too
Posted by eyesfor21 on 15-May-2005 13:46:08 (#13014)
the machines are rigged to tease you with a little
on the first 4 spins then cash out then proceed to do
this on 20 other machines..
I sure haven't tried this much but its a good as any craps system-
dice sliding works often though.
beating RFID legal?
Posted by Garo on 12-May-2005 20:09:03 (#12990)
If someone were to come up with a device to transmit a signal in RFID chips that corresponds to a higher bet level would that be legal? They are not using the device to affect the outcome of the game, they are just using a device to affect RFB... what do you think?
ONLY on the CASINO's Side......
Posted by phantom007 on 13-May-2005 00:09:59 (#12994)
A Player (AP or Ploppy) using ANY artificial signalling device, so as to gain an advantage, shall be, when caught, a FELON in NV and most other jurisdictions.
Quoting Malmuth and I. Nelson Rose, any Player using their own brain, is exposed to HEAT, and usually EXPULSION as well.
Certainly, with "Mind-Play", Casino's are now allowed to "ALTER THE RANDOMNESS OF THE OUTCOME!".
Maybe a "typo", but you equated RFID with RFB (Room, Food, & Beverage)!
ANYHOW, IMHO, if it is legal/allowed to use COMPUTERs to Rate/Evaluate Players, then said Players should have the same right to use same COMPUTERs to Play against SAME!
pH.007.
I think
Posted by stainless steel rat on 13-May-2005 07:00:53 (#12995)
his point was that if someone could come up with an RFID "spoofing" device, you could convince the RFID scanner that you have $100 on the table when you only have $10. Hence the potential for getting RFB comps because of a higher "scanned" average bet. The problem I would see is that you could make it look like the entire table is a "high-roller" table when the actual betting level is nickles. :) Might draw scrutiny. How to just "spoof" when it is reading your particular bet would be quite a problem to solve...
I should add
Posted by stainless steel rat on 13-May-2005 11:39:44 (#12998)
The casinos have opened the door to electronic mischief. If someone comes up with a workable spoofing device, the casinos deserve whatever they get. A keychain FOB that would "spoof" on demand would be nice (not always on, or you'd get discovered with a good RF spectrum analyzer and a directional antenna).
Dude, that's F'd up!
Posted by Sonny on 13-May-2005 09:46:57 (#12996)
> A Player (AP or Ploppy) using ANY artificial signalling device, so as to gain
> an advantage, shall be, when caught, a FELON in NV and most other
> jurisdictions.
I thought that only devices that calculated the odds, or similar advantageous opporunities, were illegal. Are "artificial signalling" devices illegal if a card counter using his brain uses them to "page" a BP? The device itself is not doing anything illegal, it is merely signaling another person in the casino. Certainly it would be a difficult thing to explain to law enforcement, but the device, in and of itself, would not be illegal, right?
I suppose that a HERF gun would be illegal though, huh? Dang. I guess it wouldn't fit in my shoes anyway. =(
-Sonny-
I would hope
Posted by stainless steel rat on 13-May-2005 11:37:02 (#12997)
you are right. I've certainly sat at many a BJ table with my cell phone on my belt. :) I think the ban affects those devices that can influence or predict the outcome of any game. That is, no whopper magnets under the craps table, no wheel-clocking device for the roulette table, no card-tracking computer in your shoe to predict the next card dealt, etc. Hell, my cell phone can't even predict the next time I will get a telephone call. :)
RFID Chips
Posted by Cougfan on 13-May-2005 12:35:16 (#13000)
I think you are referring to RFID chips, where the chip is giving off a signal that is picked up by an antenna in the casino. In this case, it would be nice to either fry out the microprocessor in certain chips or alter the microprocessor so that it gave off the signal of a different denomination chip. To the extent that a casino was using the RFID system to monitor bet spreads, they would be effectively blinded.
In this case, the casino is using a computerized device to alter the conditions of a table game (illegal IMHO, but OK per NGC). I don't believe that it is illegal for a player to alter a device that the casino illegally uses. I also think that the casino may press charges anyway. Given the corrupt legal system in Nevada, you could be convicted for something like this.
RFID
Posted by stainless steel rat on 13-May-2005 21:43:16 (#13006)
is a passive device. It doesn't produce radio waves, it doesn't really do anything except resonate and re-broadcast a signal that matches its tuning...
To read a RFID chip, the casino broadcasts a specific frequency and then sees what it gets back. It is possible to carry an active device that could play hell with this, like the radar scramblers you can buy for your car that take the police radar signal, then doppler-shift (frequency-shift) the signal multiple ways to make the receiver go ape-snot and be unable to lock on and get a single doppler-shift reading to compute your speed.
I hope someone studies this in detail, as RFID needs to go at the gaming table. :)
FIRST, to CougFan.......
Posted by phantom007 on 14-May-2005 10:33:18 (#13007)
Just like LTC a few days ago, GREAT to see you posting again! I think, the last time I saw your post, you were quitting BJ, and trying to sell you Gambling books. Maybe my Memory is flawed, but whatever, if you still have "Beyond Counting", would gladly pay $25. + S/H! GRIN!
Otherwise, I may have misread the original post to which I responded to. WHAT ELSE IS NEW! I personally feel that Player's using anything other than their Brain and Common Knowlege, i.e., "Devices", should be FELONS....as should the stores using SAME against mostly Hapless Ploppies!
AP's either BET DOWN or WONG-OUT in Negative Decks/Counts....the Ploppies, most having read a "book-or-two", PLAY-ON, knowing that from time-to-time, the DECK(s) will turn in their FAVOUR! With MIND-PLAY, they will NEVER achieve their expected RANDOMNESS, and MOST will not know the difference!
Per I. Nelson Rose, "Devices" can include "BS CARDS", and in some cases, stores that sell SAME in their own Gift Shop, will sometimes PROHIBIT use of SAME at their tables! Go figure?!
Anyhow, I have read a few posts suggesting that, in stores that use "Metal and/or "Metallic" coins for their $1. Chips, that placing 1 on top of your "Trackable" chips, just screws up their system. Just reporting what I have read....BUT IF TRUE?.....
Phantom007.
That actually sounds plausible
Posted by stainless steel rat on 14-May-2005 19:41:15 (#13008)
Wonder if it would piss 'em off if my $40 bet is a red and a silver repeated 7 times (42 bucks total, but oh well). I can't imagine that scanning would be very effective there, but I'm not sure.
Next thought is to jam things. I'd bet they are using the low frequency versions, which would be highly jammable without spending a lot of money...
I agree with low freq
Posted by Garo on 14-May-2005 22:36:41 (#13009)
Low freq would make more sense, they aren't trying to send a signal more than a hundred yards, and they aren't sending much data so low freq would be the most efficient idea, but without knowing the specific frequencies that doesn't help us much. If they use a passive scan it would not be possible to figure it out; either on the casino floor or by taking a chip apart, you would need some inside information. I might not be right on all this, I am mostly a software guy. Jamming would be easier, and possibly very easy. This would not give the user a financial benefit, but would prevent the casinos from tracking bets, what do you think about the legality of a jammer? How about the legality of it if you kept it off the casino floor, possibly in the hotel or something?
I don't believe
Posted by stainless steel rat on 15-May-2005 09:50:03 (#13010)
passive scan will work on chips. Chips are going to have to have passive RFID in them, because batteries are not going to work for obvious reasons. This means that there are going to be antennas under the table (probably under each betting circle) that will actively produce RF that causes the chips to sympathetically respond.
I read a paper somewhere a few months back about security in this stuff, and it looks ugly. There are two directions of data going on, one to the chip, one back. Turns out that if you just monitor the stuff going _to_ the chip, you can decode all but the last bit (binary digit) of data stored in the chip. And this is the strong signal coming from the casino's transmitter. You could certainly detect this with something in your pocket, and have your pocket device "spoof" the expected response and overwhelm the receiver's ability to differentiate between the real chip and your spoofer.
You ought to be able to earn a small fortune in comps if this is done right. :) And you are not breaking a gambling law by using a device since it has nothing to do with the outcome of the game. Fraud might come into play of course, but if you use an accomplice that does the spoofing, it would be harder to catch the "operator".
Not that I'd recommend doing this of course. We would not want to break the law. Just the casino. :)
Good ideas
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-May-2005 11:08:36 (#13011)
Active jamming of RFID will create a legal problem with the FCC, and those guys are known for levying massive fines. But having a passive device and using it for comp hustling is the way to go, I think. I would just put a couple of blacks in a pack of cigarettes and put it on the table in my betting circle. My understanding of the RFID is that it is going to be used to track employee theft and cheques walking in and out of the casino, not betting patterns, not sure if the transcevers have enough spatial resolution to do that.
Mu-metal is a material with enormous magnetic permeability that is available as a foil and a pouch made of this foil will shield RFID tagged chips from being read.
now there's an idea.
Posted by stainless steel rat on 15-May-2005 16:23:29 (#13016)
A couple of "black chips" for cufflinks. :) Average bet becomes 200 + whatever you are playing. I'm not sure how they would handle the fact that you would always have the same two black chips on the table with the same RFID signature, but who cares until we try it. :) This I might test on my upcoming vegas trip in fact...
Some questions...
Posted by toddler on 16-May-2005 09:15:06 (#13020)
Interesting thread which spawned some questions...
1) How does the table reader distinguish between chips in the betting circle vs. chips outside the betting circle?
2) Do you think the table reader will only read chips placed above it (on the table)?
3) Roughly how far from the player edge of the table is the center point of a table's betting square?
an answer or two
Posted by stainless steel rat on 16-May-2005 10:15:02 (#13021)
It seems that the "scanner" locates an antenna under each betting circle. And that each of these is very sensitive, very low-power. A friend got a cooperative dealer to let him place a chip close to the betting circle, but not in it, to see if the thing would pick it up. The dealer hit the "scan" button, and all the thing scanned was the chips inside the circle.
So it seems that putting something "close but not in" won't work. Whether a "black chip" cufflink would work or not is therefore open to testing.
But spoofing is still an issue. An electronic device can certainly detect the scanner RF emissions outside the betting circle, and it could certainly respond with a power level high enough that the antenna under the circle would be able to detect it, all that is left is to figure out what to respond with, since the chips have both a value and an ID (I'd almost guess that the value is looked up after the ID is scanned, it would make more sense). That means that the "spoofer" has to be pretty clever and respond with a valid RFID response.
What's probably going to happen is that in 5 years, we will see a new law passed making it illegal to have any RF-generating equipment inside a casino. Then we'll hear about the casey/thor-like devices someone produced to take the casinos for millions once again. :)
More thought
Posted by toddler on 17-May-2005 09:25:17 (#13028)
But spoofing is still an issue. An electronic device can certainly detect the scanner RF emissions outside the betting circle, and it could certainly respond with a power level high enough that the antenna under the circle would be able to detect it, all that is left is to figure out what to respond with, since the chips have both a value and an ID (I'd almost guess that the value is looked up after the ID is scanned, it would make more sense). That means that the "spoofer" has to be pretty clever and respond with a valid RFID response.
One issue is making sure the antennea only in *your* betting circle picks up the signal. It would seem quite strange to the house if more scanned, individual bets were placed than actual bets on the table. Would be interesting to know how the tables are built, wired and shielded.
From my prior questions, I hope some of you were able to determine the direction I was heading. Think z-axis.
toddler
Cuff links
Posted by BJforBooze on 18-May-2005 09:40:17 (#13037)
Even if the cuff links were treated as normal chips on the table, when you drew your hand back, these chips would be treated as though you had put them in the box and then withdrawn them.
not quite
Posted by stainless steel rat on 18-May-2005 15:19:11 (#13039)
note that this is not a "continuous scan". You place the bets, the dealer hits a "read bets" button, and the bets get logged. Of course, if things went to a continuous scan, just keep your arm close enough, however close that is...
a continuous scan would cause another problem, as it would appear that you are removing chips, probably due to a losing hand, and the pit would be notified and watch to see what's going on.
Thanks Phantom
Posted by Cougfan on 19-May-2005 17:19:50 (#13058)
I appreciate the notice of my absence, but I think you have me confused a bit. I have not been playing much due to work and family responsibilities. I have cut back posting unless I really have something of value to add (which is not very often).
However, I have never even thought of selling my books. I also don't own Beyond Counting, although I did read a friend's copy that he was nice enough to loan me.
Illustrious XX
Posted by Theef on 13-May-2005 13:04:28 (#13001)
Is there a source for the most profitable indices beyond the first (Illustrious) eighteen?
I'm pretty sure I can memorize and employ more than just eighteen indices. In the past I tried memorizing every Hi-Lo index between -3 and +6, which is about sixty if I recall. I was able to recall those from memory but found myself pausing at the table every so often. I'd like to try somewhere in the neighborhood of forty indices. I'd like to pick the first forty indices from a list ordered by profitability.
I-XX and beyond.
Posted by The Mayor on 13-May-2005 13:17:57 (#13002)
Certainly the next two to add are: 8 vs. 6 and 8 vs. 5.
Here are the ones I know beyond the I-18.
A,2 vs 4, 5
A,3 vs 4, 5
A,4 vs 3, 4
A,5 vs 3, 4
A,6 vs 2, 3
A,7 vs 2, T
A,8 vs 4, 5, 6
8 vs. 4, 5, 6
9 vs. 3
13 vs. 3
14 vs. T
Surrender indices:
17 vs. A
16 vs. 8, 9
15 vs. 9, T, A
14 vs. T, A
13 vs. T
I think there may be a splitting index or two that should be on this list, but I don't recall what those are.
--Mayor
a few others
Posted by Gorgon on 15-May-2005 12:31:45 (#13012)
Some further index plays to be considered are:
dbl 9 vs 7
split 22 vs 8
split 99 vs 7 (0)
dbl A7 vs 2 (+1 or better)
dbl 8 vs 4 (a rather high index number)
Reply
Posted by The Mayor on 15-May-2005 19:41:02 (#13017)
Some further index plays to be considered are:
*dbl 9 vs 7
That's an I-18 play.
*dbl A7 vs 2 (+1 or better)
*dbl 8 vs 4 (a rather high index number)
I listed both of these.
Splitting 2-2 vs. 8 and 9-9 vs. 7 are worth a cup of coffee over your lifetime.
--Mayor
9,9vs7
Posted by CanKen on 17-May-2005 15:19:36 (#13030)
An index of 0 for splitting 9's vs 7 seems very low. My sources give +3 for DAS, and +6 for NDAS. I'm using the other plays mentioned, except 2,2vs8.
10 vs. 9, 33 vs. 2, surrender 88 vs.10
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-May-2005 16:45:04 (#13003)
These are in addition to the more important ones the Mayor mentioned, I like the 99 vs. A myself because it makes me look like a real fool even to Basic Strategy players.
Just one thing about adding extra plays is that for the positive DD and split ones you had better use risk-adverse indices, otherwise you increase your standard deviation faster than you increase your win rate and they actually drag the desirability of the game down. The negative DD and split plays increase the desirability even if they don't increase your win rate because they decrease your standard deviation by reducing the amount of money you put on the table. The surrender indices can all be used because they reduce standard deviation with or without changing win rate, and the obscure hit/stand plays do neither but make you look like an erratic player.
Thanks all *NM*
Posted by Theef on 15-May-2005 16:19:15 (#13015)
Great article in U.S. News and World Report...
Posted by The Mayor on 15-May-2005 19:53:21 (#13018)
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/050523/23casino.htm
Missed Opportunity
Posted by BIg Cowboy on 16-May-2005 09:05:33 (#13019)
It would have been nice if the story had gone more in detail as to how the casinos have really turned BJ into something almost unrecognizable by that term as it did with slot machines. The authors waited until the very last few paragraphs just to make mention of worthless 6:5, but really didn't mention it as such. Also, I won't be playing Mindplay anytime soon.
I loved this quote from the Harvard guy: "The player has to have complete faith that the game is not manipulable by the casino," says Gary Loveman (CEO of no Huzzah's). "You can get to a point where you are too clever for your own good."
With the rules that I see, the games are already manipulated before you even sit down at the table. I just laughed my arse off. These casino guys are just caricatures who say things enough times to themselves so inappropriate and ridiculous that they finally believe it. After awhile, playing in these places just completely loses its appeal.
I agree.
Posted by The Mayor on 17-May-2005 11:25:55 (#13029)
I think Kim Clark wrote a lot more about 6:5, but her editor axed it. I say this because she and I had a long conversation about it, then she wrote me several emails to clarify the numbers. It was "mathematics", showing in real terms just how bad 6:5 really is. At any rate, that's what I think happened.
--Mayor
My Evening at The Wynn - (The rest of the story that I couldn't initially share with the board)
Posted by zengrifter on 16-May-2005 14:55:05 (#13023)
I had to sit on the "rest of the story" until the Wynn's bi-weekly surviellance video was purged. zg
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My Evening at The Wynn
Entering with VIP media 90 minutes prior to the midnight floodgate, I was of course impressed with the 6-star opulent splendor of the property.
Different inside than previous Wynn creations, it nonetheless has a distinct similarity to the 'big B' while encompassing and out classing the best elements of the top joints - Caesars, Mandalay, B, V, etc.
Of course I was looking for BJ info and all that I initially found was CSMs! Oh no!
Then I found some shoes. Did I mention that the CSMs are h17? Well so were the shoes, with mediocre pene to boot. I immediately wrote the whole joint off like I did the Venetian in '99.
Oh, look, a 2D @ $10 min! Sitting down, I'm about to buy-in when I realize that its a 6/5 game (BJ pays 6 for 5), the bastards! F**K Wynn!
By the time the midnite gates open I find myself near the back, no longer looking for BJ. Suddenly I almost miss them - two entire pits of s17 games, including 2D w/DAS $15 and $25 minimums.
I sit down with a table to myself and the PCs are falling over themselves to glad-hand me, a lowly greenchipper (at that moment anyway) - she shuffles, I cut, the deck, its returned to the discard tray for a notched shuffle-card insertion... WOW, ITS OVER 75%!! YAAAA BABY YAAAA!!!
I played 2.5 hours spreading $25 to 2x $75 with the requisite off-the-top cover bets (I know that my bets were small, but I was alone for most of the first hour), etc. and won $1700.
I noticed a lot of familiar faces on the floor from GN, HShoe, Hilton, etc. - this place is NOT to be taken for granted. zg
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Fw: The part that I couldn't share publically...
... was that while I was alone at the table I was telling the dealer and PC that my associate, "Mark Burnett" had me scouting the premises for employees who would be regulars on a new reality show called 'Wynn's World' - no sooner did I say it that I noticed someone appraching my dream heads-up game from behind and I turned and looked up over my shoulder - Sir Richard Branson and his wife!
Not missing a beat I said "Sir Richard, I was just telling them about the new reality-show Wynn's World and there you are, the new undisputed king of reality-based TV!
He was humble and flattered and then reiterated to his Mrs that "I really need to get my $80 back, darling." Branson' Virgin Airlines just spent more money on Airbuses than it cost to build The Wynn, mind you.
Sitting down beside me he pulled a few greens and blacks out of his pocket and asked me in a friendly and humble manner if I knew how and when to make the plays, "The splitting and the hitting and such?" I leaned to his ear and told him that I was an expert card-counter and would be his advisor for this session and he replied with a knowing smile "lovely!"
He quickly lost the few chips he had then pulled a small stack of hundreds out and bought more blacks, then things quickly turned in our favor.
I had the three of us and the dealer/PC in stiches while whispering the plays and bets. Sir Richard would shake my hand each time my call worked.
He won $2000 in 15 minutes and was very pleased, giving me $300 along the way. When his last and biggest bet of $600 produced a 16 vs 7 he didn't want to hit and asked twice in a shaky tone - "Hit it? Are you sure? Hit it?" - I told him with a smile that he would probably bust but that percentage-wise was riskier not to hit - He then resolved, "Then hit it we shall," he caught a 4 and won and promptly hugged me and kissed my cheek to the awe of the dealer and PC and a few onlookers - I proclaimed to all - "I was just kissed by Sir Richard Branson, do you know what this means!?... It means that I am no longer a ... VIRGIN!!"
The (ex)wife is a big fan so I promptly dialed her as he colored up and handed him the phone to say hello - he told her "I don't know what he was doing but it was absolutely marvelous!" Then he smiled at her response - The (ex)wife informed later me that her reply was that "[ZG] really is a top expert."
thats wild
Posted by eyesfor21 on 16-May-2005 16:10:38 (#13024)
I did similar a few years back with George and Jerry
from the Seinfeld show..
Busted!
Posted by SammyBoy on 16-May-2005 16:29:03 (#13025)
Wynn uses DVR and has enough storage to keep up to 2 months of video surveilance.
Just playing, I have no idea what I'm saying.
Magic Mushrooms :-0
Posted by SammyBoy on 16-May-2005 16:36:09 (#13026)
Stay away from them ZG, they're blurring that fine line between fantasy and reality. ;-)
Well, yes I was on acid that night...
Posted by zengrifter on 17-May-2005 19:26:35 (#13034)
... added to the overall ambiance! zg
LOL!!! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 18-May-2005 22:55:47 (#13048)
Very cool
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-May-2005 02:05:46 (#13027)
Wow I've got to start going to Vegas. Nice work man, I'll eat cards for you someday in exchange for lessons in table manners!
Bad trip in Minnesota
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-May-2005 16:59:09 (#13031)
I had a road trip some short time ago to the southern tier of Minnesota and Wisconsin, in search of advanced AP opportunities in these low-heat 4D and DD games. I was bankrolled for a 10% risk of trip ruin assuming straight counting, which is also a good opportunity due to the reasonable pen around here.
First day: landed in MSP and headed to Mystic Lake, examining the shuffles and playing the 4/1 shoes. Nothing interesting on the shuffles, pen was OK but it's a H17 store so no reason to stick around there too long. Left $300 up and was felled by a tremendous headache so I took a dozen aspirin and slept it off in the car before heading west.
Jackpot Junction- pretty much the same, but S17 and lower limits. Took my notes and headed out even.
Prairie's Edge- decided here was where I'd crash for the night so I played the place through. Had nice counts, decent pen and no heat, did my thing and left up $1XXX.
The next day: I went back to the Edge and gave most of it back. What a disaster. All of these casinos were quite crowded which made Wonging difficult, most of the loss was bleeding to death on low counts with a few unpleasant surprises on high ones. Turned out the dealer I had played the night before was blowing the shuffle so my analysis was worthless. Left disgusted but not defeated. Back to the Junction and and had more of the same, this time I kept getting good counts shoved up my ass with of course the count being trashed by the end of the hand. Paint falling everywhere but on me. Left tired and worn, and off to my next stop, Treasure Island near the WI state line. This is a good place to avoid, bad pen everywhere, no good advanced AP opportunities and I left down $900 for the trip. Talked my way out of a speeding ticket from a state trooper and found a place to stay closer to my final store of the trip, the Mighty Turtle in Wisconsin.
Next day at the Turtle. I switched cover acts from local degenerate to travelling businessman to defeat any rumors that might be following me and help cover the larger action I'd invariably be playing at the DD games. I would play a total of 12 hours there. Things started out crappy but after a break at the craps table things turned to gold. I crushed a 4D and a DD game in succession, getting around 300 hands per hour heads up from a dealer and had built up a mighty tower of chips. Up over $3K, no heat at all. Then in my final hour of play, I don't know what to call this kind of variance, but it was the most stark, cruel, give-me-all-your-money-and-go-home-you-sucker variance I have ever experienced. In one hour I gave it all back. Lost 10 big bets in a row at one point plus 4 insurance bets on top of them. Ploppy next to me was turning naturals as easy as I was busting stiffs. Frustrated and exhausted were I could not honestly say I was playing at an appropriate skill level I left, down only $300 for the trip although the swings made it feel like an unmitigated disaster.
That's not what I go on a road trip for, but the math tells me that it could have been much worse and still be considered normal and expectable. Oh well, that's variance. Next time, I'm going to resist the temptation of a very cheap air ticket and leave the small-market game research to the locals and the travelling pros and pick a venue where I don't have to travel an hour between stores.
Great report!
Posted by Sonny on 18-May-2005 16:15:14 (#13041)
Sorry about the loss. I guess I'll postpone my summer trip to Moorehead! Vegas will just have to give up a few more chips this summer.
-Sonny-
sorrry for your lose
Posted by eyesfor21 on 18-May-2005 18:57:05 (#13044)
I recently won 2o days straight to only
give it all back recenlty of Frid.13..
no hexxxxxing here.
know the feeling.
But usually if Iam up a whopper like your 3k I may reduce my
sessions,playing and spread.. this may not make sense but when
I need the cash, I must do this.
I'll bet you...
Posted by Greasy John on 17-May-2005 17:04:57 (#13032)
that if casino's didn't allow splitting of aces and would only allow double-down on 11 that the "scare of April '64" would rear its ugly head again and blackjack play would fall off. These rule changes added about 1% more advantage to the casino, whereas 6:5 adds 1.39%!!! Smooooth. I wonder if the single-deck game still exists at the Rio where BJ only pays even money?
Rio 1D is now 6\5 *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 17-May-2005 19:25:28 (#13033)
The absolute best game is in...
Posted by Gorgon on 19-May-2005 12:59:47 (#13053)
Elko, NV. Just don't allow yourself to stay too long.
You got that right.
Posted by Tom on 17-May-2005 19:51:26 (#13035)
and so many are quick to tout about how "Ploppies dont care about Rules",well let's see what happens boys,a casino's worst nightmare?
finally media taking note of 6:5 bj *NM* *LINK*
Posted by rainman on 18-May-2005 02:55:21 (#13036)
Meaningless...
Posted by The Mayor on 18-May-2005 11:24:28 (#13038)
It could be front page headlines on the NY Times and people would still play it. But, it is still worth protesting at every opportunity.
really?
Posted by Frank Corello on 18-May-2005 15:24:43 (#13040)
what if it was on cbs tv commercials,prime time,and super bowl weekends?
Still meaningless...
Posted by The Mayor on 18-May-2005 18:11:55 (#13042)
People line up for hours to play big-payoff state lotteries (that pay back about 25%). People play Hold-em tournaments in huge masses, with a house take of 5%-15%, and they don't think twice. Buy in is $50, re-buy of $25, and oh, by the way, $10 goes to the house, $5 to the dealer. That's a 20% house edge!
Slot machines almost never pay back 98.5% - no other casino game except normal blackjack, craps and baccarat pay back better than 6:5 single deck BJ. People play those games.
This is brilliant marketing. The public really is that dumb. P.T. Barnum is right and the casinos are cashing in. No amount of public education is going to make a difference. There is really no reason to try and save these people. Let them lose their money. But, in some form, good blackjack games will remain. This is because bosses and casino management know that they have smart customers who won't play 6:5. Not everyone is a sucker.
One reason why 6:5 blackjack...
Posted by Greasy John on 18-May-2005 18:26:36 (#13043)
is so easily marketed to the public is because the casinos' aren't taking away an option. If you told John Q that he could no longer hit sixteen against a dealer 10-card he probably wouldn't play the game--even though his long term loss in EV would be very little. But pay him 6:5 for a blackjack--Oh boy!
and don't forget
Posted by stainless steel rat on 18-May-2005 19:32:05 (#13045)
our marvelous public education systems. Which produce high-school graduates that will actually believe a 6:5 payoff is bigger than a 3:2 payoff because 6 is bigger than 3.
why have education on
Posted by eyesfor21 on 18-May-2005 19:56:30 (#13046)
smoking
drinking...
going to college
bad 6/5
advertising must work somtimes..and it doesn't have
to work 100% -to work, does it?
I agree that the public needs to be made aware...most know
]slots are bad but fiquire they are too stupid to play bjack...
most play 6/5 do not really know how bad it is....
What if casinos start running competitive ads touting their 3:2 game?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-May-2005 21:28:44 (#13047)
Circle Jerkus has a billboard up "Blackjacks still pay 3:2". You'd think that would have to to take volume out of the 6:5 game or else they wouldn't be running the ads, no? The natural direction of competitive pressures is going to be towards better games. Unfortunately gambling does not appeal to good human reasoning like economics does.
Advertising
Posted by oldnewbie on 19-May-2005 07:07:38 (#13049)
Going on the theory that bigger is better, how about if they start advertising "Blackjacks pay a whopping 9 to 6!!!" Maybe that would work.
(I'm joking. I think.)
oldnewbie
Never underestimate the stupidity of the American public
Posted by Victoria on 19-May-2005 13:00:07 (#13054)
Years ago, Vegas catered to gamblers and their business would fall off when they drastically changed rules to favor the house.
Today, the Strip, no longer totally is devoted to the gambler. They have changed themselves into a vacation and convention destination, where Claude, Maude and the kids can see water work shows, volcanos and a pyramid. They also have the status hotels, where you can say you stayed at the big B, Mandalay bay, etc, saw museum status art and a bunch of big fish. These people are not advantage players, it is hard to even call them gamblers. They have no clue as to the odds, advantages and ways to play most of the games they play. What they generally have is a budget, an amount they are willing to loose with little or no real expectation of winning. Basically, these casinos have decided to extract that money from these people in less time, making their profit with less salary cost.
There are still some places that also want the real gamblers action. Some of these only want to bother with them at higher limits and others at lower limits. The gambler will search out the better DD or shoe game, while the tourist will plop down in the first chair they see. So a place like Wynn's has the bad games up front and the good games harder to find towards the back. The MGM's first pit is h-17, but walk towards the back and you find, as low as, $10 S-17. You do not see CSM's in high limit rooms, they are out front, on the bad games to again extract that petty cash as quickly as possible.
6/5 is generally played by people with little knowledge of the game and no desire to educate themselves. They are there to get their free drinks and donate their daily gambling budget while hoping to get an occassional thrill.
IF WE REALLY WANTED TO STOP THEM
Posted by Anthony on 19-May-2005 15:04:29 (#13056)
Hi everyone,
If we really wanted to stop 6/5 we would have to protest the game like factory workers being replaced by scabs. March in front of the casinos waiving the no smoking 6/5 symbol. Quickly educate people as they walk by and protest "don't play 6'5". It would work, but lets be real, that's not going to happen.
Anthony
Information cards *LINK*
Posted by Al Rogers on 19-May-2005 18:44:11 (#13061)
At BJ21.com, we produced and sell the information cards described in the link below. We sold quite a few right after the introduction of the cards, but sales of the cards have dropped off to a crawl.
There's just no stopping them
Posted by Sonny on 19-May-2005 09:19:54 (#13050)
People are going to gamble no matter what. Most people go to Vegas with the intention of gambling, and they're determined to do it regardless of the payoffs. Certainly there is a good portion of gamblers who don't play the 6:5 games, but they seem to be the minority in most casinos. Tell people on the strip that 6:5 blackjack is a rip off and they will reply "Shut up and let me gamble! COCKTAILS!!!!"
Most people are going to gamble and there's nothing we can do about it!
-Sonny-
Still worth playing
Posted by Gorgon on 19-May-2005 12:55:17 (#13051)
If you shuffle track, any game is beatable; even the 6-5 nonsense. It's just that the EV is rated to be smaller.
can you
Posted by stainless steel rat on 19-May-2005 12:56:57 (#13052)
actually shuffle-trace a single deck game??? I've done basic shuffle-tracking on shoes, but I have never even thought about doing it for SD. DD might have a chance for a couple of lazy dealers I have seen, but most seem hopeless...
6:5 SD better than a bad shoe game
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-May-2005 14:27:40 (#13055)
I posted the results of a sim a while back where the best games in Atlantic City are the 6:5 SD, as long as you use Zen and have no more than 2 hands being dealt per round. This is probably the only place in the US where this is true, simply because AC has such lousy games and it's all the same game, all over the city.
when
Posted by stainless steel rat on 19-May-2005 18:11:12 (#13059)
you said "no more than 2 rounds". Is that what you meant? Would not 3-4 rounds be even better? Say R06 with 2 hands?
RO6, 2 players or 1 player 2 hands
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-May-2005 18:37:37 (#13060)
2 hands per round, should give 4 rounds per deck. In MS they have some S17 games, that helps a bit too but in MS there are way better games available.
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