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Is there a future for card counting?
Posted by Learning to count on 20-May-2005 20:20:51 (#13062)
The heat is hot. The games suck. When you do find a good game and you start to take the advantage they back you off or change the rules. What gives?
For some people
Posted by Sonny on 21-May-2005 00:47:13 (#13063)
I am able to achieve the same hourly win rate as my day job, so it seems to be good supplemental income. I'm sure that I would never be able to get away with it full time, but the weekend hit-and-run approach works out for me pretty well. There's money out there for the taking, but they don't make it easy.
-Sonny-
The FUTURE may be BRIGHT!!!........
Posted by phantom007 on 21-May-2005 12:39:04 (#13064)
Forgive me for playing DEVIL's ADVOCATE, but please consider:
1. In circa. 1964, just before Thorp's Publication, there were what, maybe 50 casinos (my estimate), and with #2-50 BJ tables each (presume ave. #20 each, again my estimate), and IF #7 Seats each, there were about #7000 places (SEATS) to play BJ, and ALL WERE CONVIENTLY LOCATED IN NEVADA!
2. Compare to 2005, in my Home State, there are 11 Stores...IF #6 Seats each, ave. #12 BJ Tables each...11 x 6 x 12 = #782 SEATS to play BJ in my LOCALE!
Add in Tunica (closer to me than many State Stores)....maybe #800+ Seats. Then add-in Illinois, Kansas, etc......circa. #2000+ seats in Less Distance, Less Time, and MUCH LESS EXPENSE than going to NEVADA.
3. Granted, the pre-Thorp "Deal until time to Shuffle" days are gone, but as you know, some GOOD games are still out there. Likewise, 6D ("What the Pro's Play"), is now standard. So AP's/CC's learn to Wong (or Dong)...Stores respond with no Mid-Shoe Entry....so AP's/CC's learn to ST....stores respond with ever-more complicated shuffles, BTW, TIME-CONSUMING!...Therefore, BJ TAKE DROPS, and thus, stores revert back to a Simple Technique...Now, even a ST'ing Novice like me can cut those LITTLE ONES out of play. GRIN!
4. HEAT SUCKS! That said, in retrospect, in my own Back-Offs, I ALWAYS SAW IT COMING...Dealer told PC "Put 3B under Survll.", PC watching me for 2 hours straight, etc. Had I have followed LVBear's Double-Up or 45-Min. RULE, I would still be a welcome guest at ALL Stores.
5. MORE HEAT! In 1964, if you were thought to be Cheating, you would likely be BEAT-UP! In 2005, if you are CC'ing, you will likely be "BACKED-OFF".
6. BJ has to have a chance to be BEATABLE, for even PLOPPIES to play...case-in-point....BJ Rule Changes in the weeks following Thorp's publication. Well, not TOTALLY TRUE, but you get my drift! A few winners here-and-there, i.e., CC's/AP's ARE GOOD FOR THE GAME....AND GREAT FOR THE CASINO's!!!
7. The 6:5 MONSTER is NOT the fault of the Casino's.....BLAME THE BOOKS! Most BJ Ploppies have read a "book-or-two", and KNOW that SD odds (usually) are better than 2D, 6D, etc.)...so THEY play this game with RECKLESS ABANDON!
Should CC's/AP's play this game.....YES, if they will allow an 8-10:1 SPREAD!
AND, HELL YES, if you can get Carlson's "RENO SHUFFLE"!
LTC, just some thoughts. But DAMN, would not you like to be welcomed to sit down to a deeply-dealt SD game, with no HEAT?!
Phantom007.
i just played the 6/5
Posted by eyesfor21 on 21-May-2005 14:07:08 (#13065)
Why,
o why
well I received my 2 for coupons in the mail for all bjacks -Vegas.
they sure stopped the mighty 3/1 spread...so it was not
great..and you want to try more
no way Jose. Play better games.
DEEP AND NO HEAT! . Who wouldn't!
Posted by Learning to count on 22-May-2005 07:46:32 (#13068)
I tried e-mailing you send me your e-mail address.
phantom007's e-Mail address.....
Posted by phantom007 on 23-May-2005 19:15:30 (#13089)
LTC:
Divorce and Move have forced me to cancel the old Richard0518@aol.com address....well, actually, I did not cancel, just after the "ex parte'", SATAN stopped making payments to the "Family Account" at AOL.
Anyhow, my new/current e-mail address is:
.......short for "Rich Love Los Angeles"....once I am FREE, LA is an OPTION! Close commute to LV, and after Divorce, once House sells, and hopefully with NO Alimony, and Less Child Support, WILL BE LIKE GETTING A #50-60 Black-a-month RAISE!
Otherwise, somewhere, I still have your phone #, or was it your cousins? Whatever, will give it a ring in a day or two....just signed up for US Cellular's 800 Minutes/Month Plan, and NATIONWIDE!
Got to call somebody....therefore, I will call you!
GRIN!
phantom007
call! we plans for an AP adventure *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 24-May-2005 21:14:24 (#13123)
roulette advantage play
Posted by Garo on 21-May-2005 16:21:58 (#13066)
Gentlemen-
I saw the History Channel special on a family of roulette players who made millions of dollars. The amazing thing is it didn't take much thought or effort to beat, just time and thousands of observations. Is this possible today? My thinking is that with computing power so cheap that casinos might track what there roulette wheels land on so they know where the bias is? If not this should be easier than ever with those giant baords reading the payouts, you could keep track of them while playing blackjack.
Spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, plop...you lose!
Posted by Sonny on 22-May-2005 13:21:12 (#13073)
From what I understand, mostly from the Roulette message boards on AP.com, the game is beatable and can be quite profitable, but the chances of finding a wheel that is biased enough to give you an advantage is very slim. There are opportunities out there, but I imagine that they are very difficult to find or exploit for very long.
Again, this is just what I have read on the message boards. I'm not willing to pay the $250 (or whatever) for the full system so I really don't know how effective it can be under the right circumstances. The author does admit that it takes a lot of time and a lot of dissapointment to find a worthwhile opportunity.
-Sonny-
One correction *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 22-May-2005 16:48:16 (#13076)
Biased wheels are indeed rare. But, the advanced strategy discussed by Scott on AP.com doesn't depend on wheel bias.
I know where a biased wheel is
Posted by SonOfBeve on 22-May-2005 23:31:44 (#13080)
I'll give you a clue, I work there.
Very likely...
Posted by The Mayor on 23-May-2005 00:20:45 (#13082)
Knowing where you work, I would say that there is a high likelihood you are correct. But, have you actually recorded 5-10 thousand spins and tracked them to see? If the answer is yes, just go ahead and pass the data along to our mutual friend 8-)
I don't think you should make too many posts like this... as you can see...
--Mayor
Biased wheel or sector prediction?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-May-2005 17:59:08 (#13077)
My understanding is that roulette AP's predict a number on the fly rather than looking for a biased wheel, and that the kind of wheel you are looking for is not biased but just constructed in a way to have a high probability of accurately predicting the sector.
It seems like you could predict your advantage with a few nights of data taking much better than you could with dice control. Playing the cheapest wheel you can find, make a record of the number you predicted and the number you got, and take as much data as possible. Then calculate how many numbers you were off, plus or minus (plus or minus as the numbers are laid out on the roulette wheel, not as numbers themselves). If you can predict the number at all and you have enough data, you should get a shape something like a normal distribution around zero. In that distribution should be enough information to give you your advantage and variance.
MOST wheels have a slight bias...
Posted by zengrifter on 27-May-2005 12:35:29 (#13186)
...stemming from a non-perfect leveling of the base/stator... they are tilted slightly causing the ball to consistently fall from the same section of the track. Sector play, computer-aided or not, exploits this very common bias. zg
6:5
Posted by Kirk Warren on 22-May-2005 07:34:45 (#13067)
What would be the optimal bet spread to beat this game? I know, thats its probably not possible, or you do need a large bankroll, but if you are allowed (which I am), any bet spread, what is necessary?
Would a 1:12 spread be enough?
Thanks
as much as possible
Posted by Garo on 22-May-2005 11:29:06 (#13070)
If you are allowed to spread as much as you want why stop at 1:12? Why not 1:40? Or even 1:60? The more you spread the more money you can make.
Simulation results for a 32-1 spread
Posted by The Mayor on 22-May-2005 13:47:45 (#13074)
Spreading $5 to $160, on a R06, H17 single deck 6:5 game, with no insurance.
PROFESSIONAL BLACKJACK ANALYZER
<Version: PBA 4.3.7>
Results for file: C:\PBA437\SIXFIVE.txt
May 22, 2005
The following rules were specified in the rules menu:
R>---------------------------------------------------
single deck
Dealer hits soft-17
With dealer blackjack, player...
Loses one bet max
On ties, player pushes, except...
Loses with 22-26
Resplit to make four hands
Resplit aces not allowed
OK to split unlike 10s, like J-Q
Check hole card under 10, A
Double any hard total
Soft doubling allowed
After splitting...
No hard doubling
Shufffle used was: Random Swaps
Dealt to 26 cards remaining.
R>--------------------------------------------------
The following counting system was used:
C>--------------------------------------------------
System name: Hi-Lo
Count indices...
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T A
1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 -1 -1
Minimum count for playing decisions: -10
Maximum count for playing decisions: 20
C>--------------------------------------------------
B>---------------------------------------------------
The following betting system was used:
mark
On count... Bet...
<= 0 $5.00
=+0 $5.00
=+1 $5.00
=+2 $5.00
=+3 $40.00
=+4 $80.00
=+5 $120.00
=+6 $160.00
=+7 $160.00
>=+8 $160.00
Play through all counts
True count is running count per 1. deck(s)
B>---------------------------------------------------
The following simulation results were obtained:
S>---------------------------------------------------
Edge: 0.86
Standard error: 0.04
Sigma: 2.62
Desirability index (DI): 3.28
Number of hands simulated: 50,000,000
Number of hands aborted: 0
Average hands per shoe: 5.07
Number of extra players: 0
Simulated hand is at position: 0
Number of cards burned at start of shoe: 0
Number of cards to remove and count...
before player decision: 0
after player decision: 0
Average initial bet: $19.54
Profit per hand: $0.17
Standard deviation per hand: $51.12
Profit per 100 hands: $16.78
Standard deviation per 100 hands: $511.16
Win percentage of total hands: 43.52%
Loss percentage of total hands: 48.05%
Tie percentage of total hands: 8.43%
S>---------------------------------------------------
Detailed simulation results:
D>---------------------------------------------------
Count: Edge: % of hands: Average Bet: St. Dev.:
-10 -05.26 00.36 $5.00 $5.308
-9 -05.09 00.59 $5.00 $5.350
-8 -04.64 00.94 $5.00 $5.378
-7 -04.44 01.51 $5.00 $5.433
-6 -04.22 01.49 $5.00 $5.457
-5 -03.61 03.33 $5.00 $5.525
-4 -03.43 02.43 $5.00 $5.551
-3 -02.82 05.94 $5.00 $5.591
-2 -02.59 06.91 $5.00 $5.610
-1 -02.04 11.87 $5.00 $5.624
-0 00.00 00.00 $0.00 $0.000
0 -01.49 32.22 $5.00 $5.626
+0 00.00 00.00 $0.00 $0.000
1 -00.78 11.08 $5.00 $5.644
2 -00.38 05.02 $5.00 $5.645
3 00.24 05.47 $40.00 $45.399
4 00.78 02.19 $80.00 $91.522
5 01.20 02.72 $120.00 $138.010
6 01.02 01.36 $160.00 $185.211
7 02.17 01.48 $160.00 $186.108
8 02.40 00.52 $160.00 $187.734
9 02.76 00.74 $160.00 $188.431
10 03.03 00.19 $160.00 $188.807
11 03.87 00.38 $160.00 $189.255
12 04.93 00.14 $160.00 $189.706
13 04.40 00.11 $160.00 $190.492
14 06.03 00.05 $160.00 $190.198
15 05.28 00.05 $160.00 $189.574
16 06.61 00.02 $160.00 $189.980
17 06.77 00.02 $160.00 $190.416
18 08.26 00.00 $160.00 $188.328
19 05.42 00.01 $160.00 $188.821
20 08.96 00.00 $160.00 $187.838
D>---------------------------------------------------
that game
Posted by stainless steel rat on 22-May-2005 20:18:13 (#13078)
is so far beyond "sucks" that it takes sunlight 6 months to get from "sucks" to "that game".
:)
Mayor... Where in the output is the 6:5 BJ payout specified? *NM*
Posted by Dog Hand on 22-May-2005 21:06:37 (#13079)
It isn't
Posted by The Mayor on 23-May-2005 00:17:54 (#13081)
Do you doubt these are 6:5 sim results?
I believe you... I was just curious. *NM*
Posted by Dog Hand on 24-May-2005 23:33:23 (#13130)
FREE casino play laws
Posted by WolfsWitch on 22-May-2005 14:05:25 (#13075)
I was wondering if you could tell me if there is an age for children to play at FREE online casino's? If there are certain laws that FREE casino's must follow as well??
practicing
Posted by Kieran on 23-May-2005 00:38:04 (#13083)
Hi Folks.
I started practicing basic strategy and when I had that down, I started practicing counting. I have CVBJ and CVCX and have been primarily running counting and playing drills. I also hand count decks in less than 30 seconds now. Still a little slow with multiple cards. I have been reading incessantly and have amassed at least 20 books. One thing that strikes me when reading is that there are so many more things to memorize and practice. Which is fine with me. I dont mind hard work. I am just curious if there is anyone who would be willing to share a practice plan with me. Also, at what point should I actually go to a casino. I have not really wanted to go until i feel fully prepared, however with the amount of material out there, I dont know that I will ever know everything i think i need to know to feel prepared. I think I need a coach :) Any takers :)
Thanks in advance for any advice.
By the way, my goal is not to play professionally. I have a great job. I am just looking to make some supplemental income in a challenging way.
Thanks again.
What I think
Posted by Felix Rue_de_Guerre on 23-May-2005 13:48:51 (#13084)
Im no coach, but here's what worked for me
It is best to learn basic strategies for the common rules/#decks and go right into the casinos. Find the cheapest games you can. Consider the negative EV tuition. Do this until you can play automatically while carrying on a conversation with the dealer, waving away the smoke from the cigar next to you, and shutting up the ploppy at first base who has been constantly bi**hing about your play since you hit your A7 vs 10 twenty hands ago.
Then try counting, but don't vary your bet until you are confident you have been keeping an accurate count and maintaining proper basic strategy... all while dealing with distractions.
Next, vary your bets according to the count and play that way for awhile. When you are comfortable with that, start adding indecies.
If you are coming right out of books and practice software to full-blown play the mistakes you make could likely end up costing you more than what I am proposing. There are some horrible distractions in a casino that are sure to degrade your concentration. Even if you are very well read and computer-rehearsed I would recommend doing this. There is no substitute for live action.
-Felix
Ditto!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-May-2005 02:51:27 (#13095)
Learn your basic strategy and dive into a cheap ($5 or less) table. Get a player's card so you get comps, it'll make it a break-even game in the long run, usually. There's a saying in sports- "Play like you train, train like you play." Felix's schedule is a good one, start with BS, then add in your play variations, and then start spreading.
thanks folks
Posted by Kieran on 24-May-2005 07:03:19 (#13099)
That is what I plan to do. Like Victoria suggested, I have been basing all of my practice on a 6-deck game with rules similar to what I can find at the casinos near here (Chicago). I even have a shoe with 6 decks at home when I practice on the table. I figured, once I am comfortable with the game in practice I can hit the real tables. I have just been a little nervous about being underprepared. Thanks for the suggestions to just hit the tables. There is no substitute for the real thing and I appreciate the tuition analogy for any losses that result :)
Practice
Posted by HiNoon on 23-May-2005 15:17:30 (#13085)
I'm not a pro by any means, so take my advice with a grain of salt...
One of the most important skills you can have is the ability to read a table at a glance. Counting single cards quickly is a good start, but in reality, it's better to be able to read pairs and combinations.
Why? Because it gives your brain a break.
Instead of having to keep a continuous running stream of 1's and neg-1's and 0's, you do the counting in short bursts. That way you have the time to process your BS and any adjustments that need to be made based on the count.
I think of it as the difference between being able to read single letter of the alphabet and being able to read words. A lot of pair combinations effectively cancel each other out (K-3, etc.) And you can train your brain to just ignore that combination.
When you practice, do it with distractions. Practice on the bus, and don't miss your stop. Listen to music and try to sing along with the chorus and stay accurate. Watch television and practice. Learning to count and make decisions in perfect quiet will give you a very unreliable understanding of your ability.
I often deal out full tables-worth of hands without paying attention and then timing how long it takes to get the count at a glance.
As for when to go, I say go now. You won't be perfect...but you may be suprised at how well you perform, and you'll know for sure where you're lacking.
Hope this helps.
HiNoon
keep it simple
Posted by Victoria on 23-May-2005 15:42:19 (#13086)
Wow, 20 books. Not sure if all your books are worthwhile but one thing for sure is that you might overload yourself with unpracticed information or just too much stuff too soon.
To start I would concentrate on one counting method. 20 books probably means close to a dozen different methods.
Learn the I 18 or enough indices that cover the most common situations that come up in positive counts and slightly negative counts (wong out on very negative ones).
And very importantly, concentrate first on one type of game, SD, DD, or 6D. And do not forget to check the differences in those games for S or H-17.
Also learn the differences between good and weak games.
As you level of comfort increases just keep slowly adding to your arsenal.
methods
Posted by Kieran on 24-May-2005 06:58:02 (#13098)
I have been only using the High-Low method, but have become familiar with other counting methods. You are right about all of the information. I think that is my most significant problem at this point. Too much information, too fast, as you put it. That is why I decided to post. Advice like yours can help me sift through all of that information and have a solid focus to start with. Thanks so much.
distraction
Posted by Kieran on 24-May-2005 06:49:40 (#13097)
Thanks for the advice HiNoon. I have been trying to work with distraction. When I count decks, I usually do a bunch of trials with the tv on. I count 3 or 4 times during each commercial. At first, the commercials sounded like the adults in the Peanut's cartoons, but now I pay much more attention to them. Another useful method was to play with my girlfriend with the radio on in the background. She was clueless, so I had to explain to her what she needed to do every hand she dealt. When I dealt to her, I had to give her playing advice. Trying to maintain count while doing that was pretty tough :) Getting better now. Although, I find it tempting to go practice playing at a day care center :)
Counting pairs and multiple table hands (i.e. on CVBJ) is still very tough. I will keep working on that.
Thanks again.
K
??
Posted by stainless steel rat on 24-May-2005 09:37:29 (#13103)
how does "playing with your girlfriend" help you in counting cards?
Oh, you mean playing _cards_ with your girlfriend?
:)
aaah the virgin
Posted by Learning to count on 23-May-2005 16:37:16 (#13087)
Basic strategy is very important but then so are the indices of advanced strategy. Vickies right the Il 18 are excellent to learn. Also check out Wongs pro book. High noon is right about card recognition. You should strive to count a deck by one card pulls, two card pulls, three card pulls all under 15 seconds per deck. Then you need to find a mentor. Beware of wolves. Play play play. When you go to Vegas go for a week to ten days. You have to get in the mud to get dirty. You should read books on how the comp system works in vegas. You can stay very cheap and some times free!
AGREE with EVERYBODY ABOVE.....
Posted by phantom007 on 23-May-2005 20:36:42 (#13092)
for a change!!! Anyhow, congrats. on reading 20 books! Keep reading! Then go backwards! Then go forward again.
"MUST READS" IMHO, include:
---Beat the Dealer...Thorpe....aka, THE OLD TESTAMENT.
---Professional BJ...Wong......aka, THE NEW TESTAMENT.
---BJ for Blood......Carlson...aka, THE SIMPLEST WAY TO LEARN A COMPLEX SYSTEM.
---The Book Casino Managers Fear the Most...Karlins...aka, WHY ARE YOU GAMBLING?
Once you have MASTERED these, suggest:
---BJ Zone...Jacobson...aka, PSYCH + LOGIC applied to BJ.
---The Theory of BJ...Griffin...MATH applied to BJ.
---BJ Autumn...Meadows...Real-life BJ Player Info.
---You've Got Heat...Barfarkel (sp?)...Entertainment + Education.
Then I suggest that you move on to:
---Most every other BJ Book ever written...but be WARY! Harvey makes claims based on "PRELIMINARY COMPUTER SIMULATIONS"! Thomason makes claims, granted, primae faciae, that his conclusions are "Based on playing out 10.000 hands on the Kitchen Table".
Then, once above is all mastered and understood, and to the point that it can be pulled-off in LIVE PLAY, then I suggest that you expand your opportunities:
---"SHUFFLE TRACKING"...George C. & Arnold Snyder, + CV.
---"Ace-Sequencing"....McDowell.
Then I suggest that you get REALLY GREEDY! Books that I have literally received this past week, include:
---Casino Game Protection....Forte.
---Dummy Up and Deal....Barnes.
---BJ Dealing and Supervision...Taucer
---Blackbelt in BJ........Snyder.
WHY?
WHY NOT?
Excluding Snyder, I WANT TO NOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO ME!
ANYHOW, BJ IS A simple/COMPLICATED GAME!
phantom007.
that's what i will do...
Posted by Kieran on 24-May-2005 07:23:10 (#13100)
i will just start hitting tables and flat betting while becoming accustomed to the real thing and getting additional practice. i will not spread any bets for a while.
the comps issue is something that I have been a bit confused about. Some suggest that getting rated and getting comps is good. Others say to avoid it, or suggest using different identities. It is okay to just go and play without spreading bets and try to get comps using my name?
Thanks for the list of books, Phantom. I have already read some, but I am not familiar with a few of them. Given that I do not mind acquiring a library, I will be sure to move through your list when the time is appropriate.
I am particularly interested in the Jacobson book. The whole reason I find the game so appealing is my background. I have a Ph.D. in Experimental Psychology. My areas of expertise are Behavior Analysis and Quantitative Methods. In the probability and stats courses I teach, I have always used gambling examples for probability and things like batting averages for frequency distributions. The reason I got into this...For fun, a few months ago, my girlfriend and I went to a riverboat for a weekend. I knew from my background in stats, which games are better than others and liked the idea of bj. However, I was nervous about going to a table to play because of the lack of playing knowledge. So, we played slots. In the end, we lost a little bit of money and I decided that I am going to learn the games that have better odds for the player. I love the concept of blackjack as a game both from the probability standpoint as well as from the psychology standpoint. Given training in each of those areas, I figured that I could do pretty well with it, given sufficient prep. So here I am :)
the mayor's book and comps
Posted by victoria on 24-May-2005 15:51:28 (#13116)
From what you said, I think you will really enjoy and get much out of the Mayor's book. Not an abc of counting but instead the thought process along with the elimination of those evil superstitions that plague ploppies.
Concerning comps, get the players card and take the comps. First off, you probably will not be betting big money at the start. If you are playing red chips, with a high bet under $100, most casinos will let you play their 6D shoe games even if they figure out you are counting. Some will not even watch you to evaluate you, with others you will just fit into their tolerance zone which could be much higher than $100. Of course, there are always sweat shops but in time you will learn who they are (often they let you know). So there is no reason to avoid comps.
When your betting range gets higher then you might make the decision to play without a card often. Using myself as an example; I play green to mid black. I have two casinos that I call home in Vegas. I am comped well enough at both, one knows I count and has limited my spread but comps me well enough and gives me enough spread that I give them some hours when I am in town. The other has taken no action towards me yet but I do not spread there as aggressively as I do in the places where I play without a card. At every other casino in Vegas, I play without a card, play very aggressively and win/lose/or draw, am out the door in no more than an hour.
by the way...
Posted by Kieran on 24-May-2005 07:33:57 (#13102)
i really appreciate the idea of a mentor, but not really sure how to go about getting one. i have read posts by many people on this and another board and there are a few people i would love to email and ask if they would be willing to serve such a function. however, i am very hesitant to just send emails to people. any suggestions on how to go about doing that? for now, if there is anyone in the chicago area, who wants to mentor someone, let me know :) any advice is greatly appreciated.
k
Mentor?......
Posted by phantom007 on 25-May-2005 22:21:37 (#13155)
I am not in the Chicago area, nor am I a good teacher, but if you ever want to hit Tunica, let me know!
phantom007.
sounds good...
Posted by Kieran on 02-Jun-2005 06:32:31 (#13248)
phantom...how can i get in touch with you?
k
my practice
Posted by stainless steel rat on 23-May-2005 20:03:15 (#13090)
I use CVBJ every day.
Before a casino trip, at least starting a couple of weeks early, I do the following:
1. basic strategy drill. I set CVBJ to give me 60 different starting hands, and I run thru them in under 60 seconds total, or about 1 second per set of 3 cards. Why that fast? It makes BS an unconscious act so that it doesn't distract you from counting. Any error and I start over.
2. 6 deck two-at-a-time running count drill. I set CVBJ to display a pair of cards every .61 seconds. This runs thru the whole shoe in 100-110 seconds. Any error and I start over.
3. full-table drill with start,ing hands (2 cards each). 6 deck shoe. Again, the goal is to complete this in under two minutes. Any error and I do it again.
4. I play a 1 hour session. for 1/2 the session I play heads-up, using the betting ramp and game rules I expect to concentrate on when I get to the casinos. For the other 1/2 of the session, I will add 2 extra players, and now practice with a betting ramp that includes spreading to two hands. I play with the goal of making zero errors. That is my bets, insurance, surrender (if being used) and BS departure indices are all watched by CVBJ and I want to finish the hour with 100% on both the betting accuracy and playing accuracy measures it monitors. I set the speeds way up so that this one hour of play will be at _least_ 600 complete rounds if it were played heads-up (it will go a little slower with multiple players of course).
Once you can get thru the above, your "mechanics" are in good shape. Now you have to deal with the casino distractions, your act to avoid being too obvious, etc.
For a better test in #4 above, do this while watching something on TV. Play the game, watch the program, and again, zero errors is the goal...
in my opinion
Posted by jblaze on 23-May-2005 20:25:56 (#13091)
In my own opinion, counting down a deck quickly is great practice, and be sure you can do it starting with cards face down so you don't clump count, unless that is going to be your main strategy at the tables. I find it easier to count the cards one by one in shoe games.
BUT, if you are going to seriously play, counting a deck shouldn't even be considered something to practice. It should be subconscious. Most of your training time should be devoted to instantly recalling indices and analyzing your risk having pre-determined your betting strategy. I spend most of my pre-trip practice time using cvdrill's discard tray drills since I wong at 6-8d tables and play according to half decks. I make sure I have down pat what I'm going to bet at what particular count.
As for when to hit the casino, do it now! Even if this means going and backcounting and not even playing, it will give you a sense on what you had better hone in on for practice. When you're comfortable, take a seat and bet the table min. Rehearse in your head what you would do for real. This way, you'll find the adjustments you need to make cheaply. When everything becomes second nature, I think you are ready.
counting a deck
Posted by stainless steel rat on 24-May-2005 10:11:14 (#13105)
is certainly good practice. But there is far more to do in a casino...
For example, deck estimation to convert RC to TC.
Using the TC quickly to get your (correct) bet out
Computing the TC quickly to make proper BS deviations when there is an index play that applies.
Computing the TC quickly to make insurance (and late surrender) decisions when appropriate.
That's the beauty of CVBJ. You have to do _all_ of that, and do it correctly, to avoid getting tagged with an "error".
Once you can count down a deck or six of cards, that is step one of a dozen or so steps you have to master to play in a casino. :) CVBJ is about as good a practice tool as you could expect to find, as it makes you do everything that you need to be able to do in a casino. And it will slowly run your speed up so that you could play at a table where superman is dealing full-speed. When you can do that you can play in a casino, and look natural doing so, because the counting activities take a small fraction of your mental acuity. In fact, if you practice enough, you won't even be doing a TC conversion any longer. You just "know" that RC=6, 1.5 decks remain, bet max bet or split 10's vs dealer 6. I don't even realize that TC=4, because enough repetition and it becomes unnecessary, which further reduces mental effort. repetition reduces the "workload" to almost nil...
will do...
Posted by Kieran on 24-May-2005 07:26:12 (#13101)
thanks for the advice. in fact, you were the one who suggested that i get the CVBJ and CVCX on another board. i never thanked you for that. i have found the software to be excellent and use it daily. i will take your suggestions on the practice. you have not steered me wrong yet :) thanks again.
My final goodbye to Rob McGarvey
Posted by toddler on 23-May-2005 21:57:24 (#13093)
I've put if off for unknown reasons, but it came time to give a final scan and review of my Rob McGarvey Outlook folder before committing it to the digital round file. There's pictures of those beautiful kids and his wife, Rob's new house and the work which was being done, his mother and father. I wonder what they're all doing right now. All our back and forth correspondence on family, food and fun.
Here's hoping Rob is looking upon us with a smile on his face. I miss the young man.
Goodbye, Rob.
.........
Posted by MrPill on 24-May-2005 11:44:30 (#13107)
.... I still carry the blackjack he sent me on some "outings".
Pill
Rob was always there with an answer
Posted by Learning to count on 24-May-2005 21:19:14 (#13124)
when you needed it. I miss em too!
... Even if it was the wrong answer and/or totally non-sensible. zg *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 25-May-2005 11:51:30 (#13134)
I think you mean "nonsensical"
Posted by The Mayor on 25-May-2005 12:07:40 (#13137)
Of course, that begs the question, "what is sensical?"
Yes, 'Don' *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 25-May-2005 20:35:41 (#13148)
that was
Posted by stainless steel rat on 25-May-2005 22:39:44 (#13160)
+really+ a "good one".
:)
Yes it was!! :-) *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 26-May-2005 14:25:02 (#13173)
Good comparison!
Posted by The Mayor on 26-May-2005 14:52:49 (#13175)
Seeing as Don twice compared me to John Patrick, comparing me to Don and apply transitivity yields a theorem...
Actually, I just wanted to get in the "sensical" comment, since that has long been a question about this funny English language I've had.
--Mayor
in that case
Posted by stainless steel rat on 26-May-2005 15:39:16 (#13176)
I don't feel so bad. He only called me "pig headed" in a discussion about whether I should quote Wong's Hi-Lo indices as opposed to the new floored ones in BJA3 (I had quoted Wong's, because that is what Norm uses in CVCX/CVData and that is where my data was coming from).
Clearly being pig-headed is not _nearly_ as bad as being compared to Patrick, so I feel pretty good now.
:)
With utmost respect
Posted by The Mayor on 26-May-2005 16:11:17 (#13178)
In spite of Don's dubious sensitivity when it comes to his interactions with people he meets over the Internet, he is worthy of the highest respect for his work on behalf of blackjack theory. Quirkyness seems to be a prerequisite for genious. My comments are made about Don because his comparisons and words sting, even though they are ludicrous.
(Given this, I wonder in what ways you are quirky, SSR? You certainly have done as much for Computer Chess programs as Don has done for Blackjack.)
I have a good friend (a touring musician) who gave me a piece of advice. I have become a fairly competent musician, and others look up to me. I have been known to be very short with people who don't play in tune or on the beat, or bother to practice. My friend said to me: "You've gotten pretty good, Eliot. You are now an ambassador for this music. Above all, be nice." I think those words apply equally as well to those in positions of respect in Blackjack.
--Mayor
my "quirks".
Posted by stainless steel rat on 26-May-2005 17:30:38 (#13181)
Let's take two cases.
questions asked by "blackjack beginners". The first from AP.com, the second from Wong's site.
1. Which game will produce the smallest bankroll fluctuation, SD, DD or 6D?
I responded "single-deck". Just look at the CVCX sims and look at the standard deviation per hour. SD is smaller.
Don responded "oh no, in a SD game you would have a higher bankroll variance." Why, I asked. Because, you would bet twice as high because it is a better game, and even though the standard deviation is smaller for a SD game, when you multiply by 2x bigger bets, you get a bigger number. I said "that's silly for a beginner, he wasn't going to vary his bets depending on the game, he was going to bet $5 and choose between SD, DD or 6D. That went nowhere. But it caused him/Parker to "eliminate" me on ap.com. :)
2. What is the correct hi-lo index to double 11 vs A? I responded +1 for S17, +0 for H17, which come from either pro BJ or the tables in CVCX/CVBJ. "no says he, the correct index is -1, and is in BJA3." I said "your index might be better, but doesn't it make more sense to quote the source everyone uses for Hi-Lo, namely PBJ? "there is no main source for Hi-Lo" was his response. Later another similar question answered by "bigplayer" "you ought to look at the Hi-Lo 'bible' pro BJ by wong..." But Don didn't try to correct him. :)
So yes, there are quirks.
If you look up my "computer chess" answers over the years, I don't supply answers like "you are just wrong, and you ought to be able to see why." and so forth. There are better ways to answer questions...
Podium Mortalitas
Posted by The Mayor on 23-May-2005 23:27:21 (#13094)
All,
I'm going to take a break from writing podiums. The May podium will be my last for the summer -- maybe in the Fall I will start up again. Thanks for understanding.
--Mayor
how about a guest podium
Posted by Learning to count on 24-May-2005 21:21:12 (#13125)
EVRYONE SHOULD WRITE ONE AND SEND IT IN. yOU PICK OU THE BEST ONE!!!!
Excellent Idea but...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-May-2005 22:34:26 (#13129)
But the first thing that comes to mind, for me, is that The Mayor is postponing his monthly treatise because he has more important things to do with his time.
Reading through a bunch of other-peoples stuff and evaluating it would take more time than writing a simple essay.
If The Mayor decided to appoint a trusted source to write a guest Podium, then that would be good.
P.S.
Your caps lock is on.
-Felix
"More important things..."
Posted by The Mayor on 25-May-2005 10:14:19 (#13132)
That's not really what this is about. It's more like "Rest for the weary..."
Here is some insight into my little life...
*Work full time at UCSB
*Work for my wife doing tech/accounting for her consulting company
*Am involved in a large lawsuit against an Internet company
*Practice and perform on several different musical instruments
*Practice my advantage play skills (yes, I do!)
*Trips to casinos and other fun/profitable destinations
*Maintain 5 web sites.
*Write 3 articles on blackjack a month (podium + 2 others).
*Research new gaming opportunities.
*Own a house with a big yard that needs a lot of upkeep.
*Am married and like to spend time with my wife.
*My parents are elderly, and one is ill.
I'm just a bit stressed...
--Mayor
I guess that is what I really meant *NM*
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 25-May-2005 15:03:21 (#13138)
5 websites!
Posted by Gibbs1 on 25-May-2005 21:19:29 (#13151)
Wow! What are they?
They are...
Posted by The Mayor on 25-May-2005 22:37:26 (#13158)
Actually, six... but the last one doesn't count... and this one takes the most work.
www.cs.ucsb.edu/~teliot
Being busy ...
Posted by Sun Runner on 26-May-2005 11:42:07 (#13169)
*My parents are elderly, and one is ill.
That alone can sometimes drag you to your kness.
Good luck with them.
BlackJack Bonanza
Posted by SammyBoy on 24-May-2005 09:47:55 (#13104)
The Plaza is having a Blackjack tournament June 22nd thru the 23rd. Anyone going? They are giving away $15,000. $7500 for 1st, $3750 for 2nd, $1500 for 3rd, $1000 for 4th, $750 for 5th and $500 for 6th.
Week too late!
Posted by MrPill on 24-May-2005 11:42:06 (#13106)
Darn, my next trip will start a week too late! Will be in Vegas for 10 days a week after this tourney.
Good luck to anyone going, they are fun and sometimes profitable!
Pill
Your description tells us...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-May-2005 12:37:24 (#13108)
...nothing as to the viability/playability of said tourney. zg
How much is it? *NM*
Posted by Anthony on 24-May-2005 13:26:10 (#13112)
Sorry ZG
Posted by SammyBoy on 24-May-2005 15:10:59 (#13113)
That's all the info I have.
Then your announcement is the intellectual equivalent...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-May-2005 17:09:58 (#13119)
... of "Bonanza!!" - "Blackjack is now being offered at the Commerce Casino!" zg
On the other hand...
Posted by The Mayor on 25-May-2005 11:14:12 (#13133)
If it was a bona-fide advantage opportunity, you and I both would not want it posted here. Most BJ tourney's these days are a loss-leader for the house, just like slot tournaments. Only Poker tournaments seem to be designed up-front to make $$$ for the hosue.
Now I Understand...
Posted by SammyBoy on 26-May-2005 13:48:59 (#13171)
ZG, the Plaza is calling it a $15,000 BlackJack Bonanza. Sorry for the confusion. I just wanted to make sure you guys in the area were aware of it. I believe there is no entry fee.
NEW IQ SCORE 136 AVERAGE SCORE112
Posted by Learning to count on 24-May-2005 21:41:55 (#13127)
I thought I lostmy edge! I have to get back in the game.
It's more of a "trivia" contest
Posted by The Mayor on 25-May-2005 10:06:06 (#13131)
And not all the questions have an absolutely correct answer -- many are highly debateable. I wrote the test when I was learning php scripting, as a little exercise to test what I had learned.
The real IQ test happens at the tables!
Your blackjack IQ: 153
Posted by zengrifter on 25-May-2005 11:58:18 (#13135)
What is a perfect score? zg
Scores above 150 are all equal
Posted by The Mayor on 25-May-2005 12:06:26 (#13136)
There is a max of 200 points, but many of the answers can be argued. So, I lump all scores about 150 as equal 8-)
By the way, 153 = 1^3 + 5^3 + 3^3 (the sum of the cubes of its digits).
--Mayor
Works the same way in real IQ tests
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-May-2005 15:34:01 (#13140)
After a certain point scores can be almost random because of lucky/unlucky guesses, and diferences in interpretation of a question. The classic number progression questions are a great example- "Which comes next in this series". IThere's always some process you could be applying to the numbers that the test writer didn't think of. On one of the classic tests the number progression represented consecutive stops on the 'A' subway train in Manhattan. Apparently the authors didn't consider that people who live outside of New York had an IQ.
162 For Me, Time to Start Playing Black :-) *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 26-May-2005 14:13:52 (#13172)
I have a few problems with the test
Posted by Cougfan on 25-May-2005 18:51:05 (#13142)
Overall, I think it is a good test, but I personally question a few of the answers:
- Is BJ21 really the most popular BJ site on the internet? There must be BJ sites frequented by non-counters that are more popular. Plus, the term "BJ site" could be interpreted to include porn sites that specialize in oral sex. In that case BJ21 is not even in the top 10,000.
- I think that one reason for table maximums is to protect against progression players. Given the amount of sweat generated by big bets at say, the Western, I think casinos are worried about the potential for any big bets to impact them, even if they have a 0.5% edge on the bet.
- If you 2X overbet proper kelly betting, ruin is not certain. It may be extremely likely, and almost certain, but I would not say that anything in life is certain.
- Personally, I agree with most of what Don Schlesinger has to say.
That being said, I scored a 154, so obviously most of the answers are correct. As you can tell, I am still working on my self-confidence :).
If I were to re-write it today
Posted by The Mayor on 25-May-2005 19:21:35 (#13143)
I'd change about half of the questions, and make sure each question has a clear and unambiguous answer. But, then all the data and value of having thousands having taken it is lost. I also agree that some of the questions may simply have the wrong answer. So, take it for fun, but don't take it seriously!
--Mayor
I think that would be impossible
Posted by Cougfan on 25-May-2005 20:17:38 (#13145)
It is very difficult to write a completely unambiguous question, especially when you are targeting a notoriously nit picky group, such as advantage players, where people love to argue over things that really make no difference in the big picture.
My post was meant to be tongue in cheek, especially the part about about my having all the correct answers. Then again, I once re-wrote a test question in college because the set of assumptions was inconsistent, and then answered the revised question. The professor gave me credit for the answer but threw the question out for everyone else.
From SD 2 a Shoe!
Posted by Anthony on 25-May-2005 15:11:05 (#13139)
Hi all,
Since studying the game of BJ as an advantage player, I've played only single and double deck games.
I decided to go an play a $3 six deck shoe game for practice and to see what it's really like. If your like me and play only single and double deck games, here's what I experienced.
1. It's not a hard as you would think
2. The math is a little more complicated
3. It can take a long time for a plus/negative count
4. Expect to have a big bankroll
5. Shuffels take forever
6. Full exposure of the cards is nice
7. Learning to judge how many decks are left by thikness will take practice
8. I could see why you would get less heat
If you're use to playing SD DD games, then go and put some time in on a shoe game. I felt more confident playing DD the next day, it was kinda like swimming in the ocean, then swimming in a indoor pool. How did I do on the shoe? Doesn't really matter becuase I only played about 4 hours, but it was deffinitly a learning experience. With the right people I can see how a team can do very well. Remember the song "I like Pina Colada?"
Take it Easy
Anthony
RE
Posted by jblaze on 26-May-2005 00:20:41 (#13163)
as a side note, much easier to swim in the ocean, more buoyant due to the salinity.
Input
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-May-2005 01:24:56 (#13165)
Hi Anthony, as a habitual shoe player who only plays pitch occasionally, let me give you the reverse perspective.
"1. It's not a hard as you would think"
It's easier in many ways. The one thing that tripped me up for a few minutes the first time I played pitch was keeping the cards you've seen from separate from the players' hidden cards when the dealer turns over the hands, and at the same time separate from your neighbors' hands that you peeked at. It adds a whole new level of accounting.
"2. The math is a little more complicated"
Most people seem to see it the other way. Although shoe has higher numbers, pitch TC conversion usually involves dividing by fractions which most people find troubling.
"3. It can take a long time for a plus/negative count"
You can wait all night for a big count. Beware steaming. When you have a bad run in SD or DD you know another good count is a few minutes away at max, in shoe it could be hours before you can get your revenge so there's more of a temptation to imagine an advantage that isn't really there.
"4. Expect to have a big bankroll"
Yes, but you need a big BR with pitch too. One unpleasant fact about shoe is that with the multiple splits and DAS rule you can lose 8 big bets per hand and easily lose a few hundred units per shoe. In pitch you don't lose as many units but your units will be higher if playing the same bankroll with the same ROR, with a spread realistic for a pitch game (e.g., a 1:20 spread is routine in shoe, just try that in a SD game.)
"5. Shuffels take forever"
Yes, this can be a good thing. To make an 8D shoe as random as a single deck when shuffled would take an unacceptably long time, so deductive logic tells you...
"6. Full exposure of the cards is nice"
Helps a bit, but the added PE you get from being able to see all the cards on the table isn't as useful as it is in SD.
"7. Learning to judge how many decks are left by thikness will take practice"
Right, but it's probably easier than true counting SD.
"8. I could see why you would get less heat"
Absolutely. It's not as good a game. It's also not as susceptible to cheating techniques like card marking and switching so surveillance has less of a reason to be watching the table.
"Remember the song "I like Pina Colada?""
The name of the song was "Escape". Publicly singing the lyrics can have a deleterious effect on your chances of getting laid. Learn some Aerosmith or Led Zep instead.
You should ONLY...
Posted by zengrifter on 26-May-2005 14:32:54 (#13174)
... 'wong' the shoe games, which eliminates the overly long wait for +counts. zg
Re: You should only....
Posted by Anthony on 26-May-2005 15:57:50 (#13177)
ZG,
If your playing a shoe game and want to "wong" out, and you don't have another player to keep count, what do you do? My original post was my experience in playing the shoe game, as compared to a pitch SD DD game. How far into, and how far negative does the count have to be on a six deck shoe before you "wong" out?
Thanks
Between -1 & -2 (TC) *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 26-May-2005 20:49:44 (#13183)
Conversely, don't enter (or reenter) until it +1 *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 26-May-2005 20:50:43 (#13184)
Amazed!!!
Posted by SonOfBeve on 25-May-2005 15:56:04 (#13141)
Theres a guy thats been playing at my casino for the past couple months and he always seems to win. He can't be counting because he always bets the table max. Last time he won $5000 and I was talking to him about how he always wins and he started telling me how he does it. He told me to shuffle a deck and split it into three piles and when I did that he named each card on top of each as I flipped it over. I had him do it again with my casino manager and he got 2 out of 3 cards right. Why he was showing me I don't know, I guess he just drank too much. He asked if I was gonna kick him out and I said no and I was asking more about blackjack and he said you just know whats coming out of the deck when its about to come out. He quoted Kenny and said "You gotta know when to hold em, and know when to fold em." He had busted only twice in his two hours of play. He told me he is banned from all the high end casinos because he wins too much and told me that our casino was lucky we didnt have $1000 tables.
A couple possibilities
Posted by Cougfan on 25-May-2005 20:11:56 (#13144)
1. He is a lucky SOB
2. He is playing with a legal advantage by shuffle tracking, ace sequencing, hole carding, etc.
3. He has marked the cards in your casino, or is using some other illegal method to gain an advantage.
#3 was my guess, too. *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 25-May-2005 20:34:16 (#13147)
Impossible
Posted by sonofbeve on 25-May-2005 21:52:10 (#13153)
We had the cards checked for every known method of marking. Multiple people took a look at them and found nothing out of the ordinary. Next time I see him I will have him do it with a brand new deck. He mentioned to me that he is a multi-millionaire and its all from playing cards...perhaps he really is gifted and predicts the cards! I didn't kick him out because I don't care when people win. We get enough suckers that won't leave until they reach their ATM withdrawal limit.
Members, please comment on this...
Posted by zengrifter on 25-May-2005 20:33:21 (#13146)
... strikes me as bizzare. zg
Sounds like a a little troll...
Posted by Learning to count on 25-May-2005 20:40:35 (#13149)
nothing like stirring the pot with a little mythology!
It's all up to your imagination!!! *NM*
Posted by T21 on 25-May-2005 21:12:26 (#13150)
Wrong...
Posted by The Mayor on 25-May-2005 21:33:12 (#13152)
This poster is not a troll, I know him personally and know the casino he works for. But he doesn't know that I know him. But then again, he knows me too!
Mayor...
Posted by sonofbeve on 25-May-2005 21:56:38 (#13154)
There is a guy that comes in that looks like you. Ive even taken your surveilence photos and compared them, but I came to the conclusion that it wasn't you. Haha.
I recently had minor facial surgery...
Posted by The Mayor on 25-May-2005 22:39:47 (#13161)
I guess it worked!
8-)
Please Post BIBLICAL Stuff on the ZEN ZONE....
Posted by phantom007 on 25-May-2005 22:27:32 (#13156)
The Mayor came to KNOW Son-of-Beve, as did SOB come to KNOW the Mayor....etc.
ph.7.
Har har har!
Posted by The Mayor on 25-May-2005 22:34:26 (#13157)
Really -- I let out a good laugh on that one 8-)
My money is on the classic leg-pull
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 26-May-2005 01:00:00 (#13164)
That's OK, a little tension on the leg is good for the knee and ankle, improves circulation and decreases stress.
Sounds like a guy I know.. *LINK*
Posted by Stu on 31-May-2005 05:47:56 (#13220)
What did he look like?
strikes me
Posted by stainless steel rat on 25-May-2005 22:37:43 (#13159)
as voodoo.
Computer Scientists often refer to the principle of "Occam's Razor". The idea is that the simplest explanation is usually the right one. In this case, the simplest explanation is _not_ that he can somehow use "the force" to predict cards. :)
It's just typical casino BS...
Posted by Tom on 25-May-2005 22:55:27 (#13162)
and BS dont stand for basic strategy!
The Guy is Obviously a Reader of the ZenZone! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 31-May-2005 11:12:55 (#13222)
Hmmmm *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 26-May-2005 06:39:59 (#13166)
Why he was showing me I don't know, I guess he just drank too much.
What was he drinking? Did you join him?
the streak will end *LINK*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 26-May-2005 09:53:55 (#13167)
Many okay players get on winning streaks and
thats all they are and then they give it all back
and more.
Yeah some rookies do have a slight feel for the cards.
I know of a guy that kept on winning the royal match
side bet and has no idea whats going on, this continued for
months and he still wins,but how long will it last.
Lots of beer
Posted by SonOfBeve on 26-May-2005 10:14:51 (#13168)
He always gets wasted when he plays. Seriously, he looks like he is homeless and hasnt bathed in years, but he always has wads of hundred dollar bills.
Probably a crack dealer.
Posted by Tom on 26-May-2005 17:51:33 (#13182)
ah,what a shame,all that dope money for the taking and you guys cant get it. If you're looking for some info,were you aware that your casinos cards have a special shiny coat that will reveal fingerprints to the keen eye as long as your head and eyes are at 30 degree tilt from the defraction of light as it reflects off the cards? Watch that crack-suckers bighead move about next time he sticks it to you. Tell yo' boss about that one,it'll tighten up his lips.
An old story *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 27-May-2005 06:39:10 (#13185)
He always gets wasted when he plays. Seriously, he looks like he is homeless and hasnt bathed in years, but he always has wads of hundred dollar bills.
When the Golden Nugget had no towers and was just a store front casino 30 years ago, a guy walked up to the Craps table (there were only two) and asked what was the minimum bet. He looked homeless and the dealer wanted him to leave. The min bet was $5 and the max bet $1,000. The dealer, hoping to chase him away, said the minimum bet was $1,000. The disheveled man pulls out a roll of hundreds and peels off ten. Puts it on the line and wins. He says push it. The dealer explains that the bet is over the max. The guy asks how can 2x the min be over the max. The dealer was fired.
Was he wearing glasses? Thick glasses? *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 26-May-2005 12:43:46 (#13170)
No glasses
Posted by SonOfBeve on 26-May-2005 16:28:56 (#13179)
Other customers told me that they have seen him at other casinos, which I won't name and he wins a lot there too. One lady who is a regular told me she watched him play at a downtown casino and he won $50,000.
I'm confused
Posted by Cougfan on 26-May-2005 16:38:35 (#13180)
I am not sure what role you play at the casino, but presumably you have the power to bar someone who is playing with an advantage, and it sounds like this might also be one of your job responsibilities (just guessing here).
If you honestly think that he is not just lucky, then he has an advantage over your casino (legal or otherwise). Why do you care what he is doing? Also, why do you choose to let him play? I am very curious in your thought process behind this decision.
You know what ?
Posted by G Man on 28-May-2005 12:06:44 (#13195)
I don`t really care how this guy wins and I am more than amused by you trying to find out how he does it by asking on this board. Do your own F.. job and find it by yourself. And to all those trying to help a casino employee....what`s the point?
What's The Problem?
Posted by SammyBoy on 31-May-2005 10:45:13 (#13221)
In the Casino ads that fill my mailbox I see shiny happy people with big stacks of chips in front of them at the tables. Are people not supposed to win when they go to the casino?
Same casino but
Posted by Victoria on 31-May-2005 13:26:43 (#13226)
Sammy
It might be the same casino but the objectives of the marketing and table game departments are quite different, as you know.
Bishop Snyder on the love of winning
Posted by zengrifter on 27-May-2005 18:21:43 (#13187)
Sermon: What's Love Got to Do with It?
by Bishop Snyder
(Blackjack Forum Vol. XXIV #3, Summer 2005)
© 2005 Blackjack Forum Online
An ambitious new card counter recently asked me what I thought was the most important trait for a blackjack player to have to ensure his success-math ability, or a good memory? I told him I didn't think either of those talents was the single most important trait for a successful blackjack player. Most of the successful pros I know are pretty good at math and memory, or at least, they worked at those things enough to get sharper than most people. But I do know some very successful players who are far from exceptionally gifted in those areas, and they'd be the first to admit it.
"So, do you think it's the art of deception that's the most important thing?" he asked. "Does it all come down to acting and the ability to fool the pit?"
"Well," I said, "con artistry is important, too, but it's not the most important factor."
...continued here - http://blackjackforumonline.com/content/WhatsLoveGotToDoWithIt.htm
Fascinating, Rush says almost exactly the same thing
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 27-May-2005 19:38:22 (#13188)
Rush Limbaugh agrees. The only thing in his life he's really loved doing is talking on the radio, and it's the only thing he hasn't failed at. He says that the most important thing for success isn't discipline, because if you have the desire you'll get the discipline, and if you don't you won't. The most important thing is desire and loving what you do.
the ingredients of the potatoes
Posted by Stuart Wild on 27-May-2005 21:44:40 (#13190)
What is most important? Love!! If you surrender to the lies within yourself than the blackjack table could invite you being the genius yourself.
Stork
What the fu#$ are you talking about???? *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 28-May-2005 05:40:28 (#13193)
take a mirror and start watching.
Posted by Stuart Wild on 28-May-2005 12:08:04 (#13196)
The essence of that answer lays within yourself,
Sincerely,
The Stork
Thanks wisdom from the dork *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 28-May-2005 20:49:37 (#13200)
"fabulous" vegas
Posted by Stuart Wild on 27-May-2005 21:35:40 (#13189)
Like people might not know yet but I moved to Vegas a few months ago and have gone to a few barrings already. Pitbosses! They walk like drunk frogs thinking they are big items!! Hell no. It is over being the nice guy. You are strong when you are open. People tend to get a lot of training based upon certain situations, but spontanius action confuses most of people because it demands a thought for yourself. Something what can contribute to a lot of frustration. And... what is better then punishing those people you are not able to deal with. How weak is that.
This time it is the Plaza. They were watching because I was wonging around the tables to get some action. One of those puppies enters the table telling me that from now on I can only flat bet from the beginning at the shoe. The man in charge told me that we both waste our time. Is that true? First of all you waste your time at any stage whenever there is something unfair about doing your job.
I really think that they can threat a lot of people with those powergames but not me!! It is illigal to tell people that in a constitution were freedom is preached, you can not play blackjack. Freedom stops whenever money becomes an issue. Vegas oh ..."fabulous" Vegas. You should live at fremond street for a while!!
I wonder if anyone can advise me in this matter. I do not commit a crime and because of that I have to be threated like everybody else. Any lawyers advise here?
Advice
Posted by The Mayor on 27-May-2005 22:25:09 (#13191)
Caveats, I am not a lawyer, and my memory is not very good for these facts:
>It is illigal to tell people that in a constitution were freedom is preached, you can not play blackjack.
There is something called the "Friendly hands law" which permits privately owned companies to deny service. This is typically used by bars to expel drunken or unruly customers, but casinos use this same law to expel advantage players.
Except:
1) if you are a member of a "protected class" or disabled, in which case you can sue for this denial of service.
2) there is "contract law" which says that once you have been allowed to buy chips to play a game, the casino has agreed to an implicit contract to let you play. Therefore, unless you do something illegal or dispruptive, this contract is binding. The contract law argument has never been tested but many legal experts agree it is sound. If this argument won in court it would lead to much more frequent "tresspassings" - something that we definitely don't want.
3) in some states the casinos have been forbidden to apply the friendly-hands law to card counters. These states include New Jersey and (I think) Missouri. Kenny Uston attempted to force Nevada casinos to let him play blackjack, but he ended up dead before his case went anywhere.
Best wishes with your gaming career -- it is a tough road.
--Mayor
Who you gonna call?
Posted by sonofbeve on 28-May-2005 04:39:53 (#13192)
Nevada Gaming!!! If you have questions regarding the legality of what happens to you in a casino, call nevada gaming. Maybe your making it too obvious that you are an advantage player. Anyone can count cards, its covering up the fact that takes real skill.
Balance...
Posted by Hal Jordan on 28-May-2005 12:02:15 (#13194)
It sounds like you need to read Burning the Tables. Your post sounds anything but symbiotic. This field is all about give and take. You need them, and they need you.
HJ
How exactly...
Posted by The Mayor on 28-May-2005 12:43:44 (#13197)
How exactly do they *need* us? If every advantage player on the planet were to suddenly stop going to casinos, I hardly think the casinos would complain.
Cover, Cover, Cover........
Posted by T21 on 28-May-2005 19:40:45 (#13199)
Hello,
If your an advantage player, and are succesfull at playing with an advantage, then the answer is really easy.
Think of confidence men, drug smugglers,and money launders. It's a cat and mouse game. These type of men/women make lots of money from there works, but eventually most get cought. Same as a card counter. However, when we get caught we don't look at going to prison.
The casinos look for us like the Department of Justice looks for criminal enterprizes that do not support taxation for our goverment. I.E. The US looses money. So, most of the crooks will hide there actions and go to great lengths of camoflauge and counter servalence to continue their works, and make lots of money.
Now we as counters must camouflage ourselfs from the casinos as like the people above. Now it's not fair that they won't let you play because your good, and I agree. I would be willing to bet you looked like Clyde the Counter, and not Ted the Tourist. That's a quote from BBIBJ "Snyder". DON'T LOOK LIKE A COUNTER.
T21
FRIENDLY HANDS LAW......
Posted by phantom007 on 28-May-2005 23:20:34 (#13202)
Cost me an extra "Red" chip, but that hooker that I picked up at Slots-A-Fun (yes, PUN INTENDED), certainly had "Friendly Hands"! Happy to abide by-the-law!
Seriously, Mayor et.al., Missouri is a "1-800-BAR-NONE" STATE!
Missouri cannot bar BJ players for:
---1. Using common information available to all players at a table.
---2. Using their Brain!
Missouri CAN:
---1. Offer usually SH#TTY Games, and usually does....though many GOOD 6D games are available in the State (outside of the 2 major metropolitan areas).
---2. EARLY SHUFFLE....rarely enacted....even PLOPPIES hate to play 2 rounds then watch a 10-min. shuffle.
Harrah's-KC:
---1. Tried to Flat-Bet an AP.
---2. Got fined for doing same (GRIN)!
Back to the Original Poster:
---1. Sorry about your Plaza Back-off.
---2. NEVER EVER tell them you live there...BE a perpetual TOURIST!
---3. Low-Spread and GRIND!
---4. If you spread out to other NV venues, NEVER EVER give your LV address!
Reno and other NV stores think it is "fishy" for LV residents to be playing in their facilities. Get a "drop-off" address in Bullhead City, AZ, for example.
Hope this "advice" is helpful. May be moving there soon myself.
Phantom007.
Advertisment
Posted by Hal Jordan on 29-May-2005 11:34:47 (#13206)
I am speaking of the allure that professional players bring to the mythology of the game. I'm sure we have all run into tons of people who have heard just enough about stories, such as that of the MIT teams, which lead them into feeling as if they have a chance if they just play smart. Obviously, they don't play smart, but the notion that there is someway to beat the game adds to their "desirability factor."
HJ
And May the SUPREME BEING Bless those.........
Posted by phantom007 on 30-May-2005 22:31:58 (#13211)
who give the allure of BJ Profit, i.e., the BJ Pro's who continue the image of the Casino as a "Cash Candy Store". May THEY (the Ploppies) never know that it is HARD F#cking Work to win 1-2 Maximum Bets/hour, and then, EVEN F#cking Harder to keep it! May they NEVER grasp that to "spend it" and/or "lose it" on another game (Poker) is the same as increasing one's ROR!
BUT I PRAY, that said SUPREME BEING even further Bless the Ploppies with full RFBA, and if needed, Free Hats and T-shirts....and if possible, us CC's/AP's too. For us CC'er FOLK only have ONE chance of survival...PLOPPIES!
LORD, as Silberstang once wrote, "Someone has to pay for all those lights and fountains"....Please Lord, oh Please, LET IT BE THE PLOPPIES!
Phantom007.
You have to win at two games to make money
Posted by BlackJackHack on 01-Jun-2005 12:58:53 (#13244)
Once you are a technically proficient card counter, and can win at the silly card game, you have ABOUT ONE THIRD of the skills you need to make money. You need to understand how the PCs operate, you have to have an act, you have to develop multiple identities. Most importantly, you have to understand that you are a PERFORMER. You have to sell yourself to the casino to take its money, just as casinos sell themselves to ploppies to take all of their money. At a minimum, you have to convince them you are not a threat. At best, you want to convince them that you are EXACTLY the player they want in their casino (a losing player from that casino's target socioeconomic demographic, its target geographic market, etc.), and that you will LOSE a lot of money. If you are tactful enough, you can convince the casino that you actually ARE losing money.
It's not that hard to win at the card game -- winning at the cat/mouse game is much harder. I used to get backed off somewhat frequently. I got smart, and have not been backed off in about 2 years.
Indian casinos
Posted by steve randall on 28-May-2005 16:30:27 (#13198)
I would like to play at the closest casino to where I live but, I am not a counter. I know and try to practice basic for that casinos rules with few mistakes.
My question is: With this casino rules, h17 (.79) is it wise to play there at all? Few advantage plays.
Looking for a dealer tell with a ten up(they use mirrors)is obviously out.
Sloppy dealers possible.Looking for lots of small cards being played and ace and faces seems to be a possibily. How does one play this game and have a snow balls chance? Wjat is the best approach? The best counting technique?
EARN While You LEARN.....& need lots more info. to better answer your Questions!.......
Posted by phantom007 on 28-May-2005 22:39:52 (#13201)
You ask many good questions. Much more info. is needed, such as: #decks, specific rules, tolerance, comps., experience, bankroll, goals, distance of NON-CLOSEST Casino's, etc. Some GENERAL answers/comments:
(1) Indian Casino's....NOT a good place to play for Big Wampum! If you are cheated (or more likely, just think you were), you will usually NOT have the recourse of the State's "Gambling Control Board" to intervene, retreive tapes, appeal, etc. Further, MOST litigation is prohibited!
(2) Closest Casino....DO NOT BURN OUT YOUR HOME STORE! Spread Low, use it for practice, entertainment, and comps. For example only, if you play 4 hours most every Friday night @ Low $ Tables, even with Low Spread, you will most likely:
---Never pay for a Drink.
---Rarely pay for a Buffet/Coffee Shop for two.
---Often get a "Steakhouse" Comp. for 1-2.
---Occasionally get a "Free Room"...handy when you have capitalized on the Free Drinks...even handier when relatives that you do not like (In-Laws) for example, come to visit.
---Free Promo's, Side-bet coupons, Slot Play, etc.
---Still be likely to be EVEN or AHEAD on BJ!!!
(3) "I am not a Counter"....BECOME ONE!
(4) "A few mistakes in BS"....NOT TOLERABLE! BS must be PERFECT, if ALL else is to proceed to your +EV! If not possible in the short-term, then buy and use a BS card sold in most stores' Gift Shops and use it at the table (WARNING!!!...I have heard-of, but not personally seen, WRONG BS Cards being sold...be sure and compare yours to a few "BOOKS").
(5) "Is it wise to play a h17(0.79) game"....again, LOTS MORE INFO. would be nice, i.e., DAS, RSA, Spl. to 4, etc.....but IF your # 0.79 = Pen., then:
---6D...HELL YES!
---2D...Play it until your children retire!
---1D...Play it until your Decubitus Ulcers require Medical Treatment!!!
(6) "Few Advantage Plays"...see #5 above.
(7) "Tells/Mirrors"..."tells" are perceivable Dealer reaction(s) to seeing their holecard...mirror vs. peek not usually consequential. IMHO, put "Tells" on the back-burner until you have PERFECTED BS and CC'ing, then revisit the study of TELLS...but BE CAREFUL! We often see what we want to see!
(8) "Sloppy Dealers Possible"...Need to KNOW, YES or NO! "POSSIBLE" ain't good enough in this case! And if "YES", do you know how to PROPERLY play Double Exposure BJ against a HCF (Holecard Flasher)??? For example, you have a 10,9 vs. Dealer 10-up + "Paint Flash" down below. What do you do?
---STAND...100% chance of losing your bet.
---HIT.....circa. 7.7% chance of a tie, and 7.7% chance of a win, 84.6% chance of a loss....and nearly 100% chance of a BARRING, especially if you do it more than once a session.
---DD....same as "Hit" immediately above, except you will LOSE even more $, and be even more likely to be barred....what Ace-hole ever DD's 19?
---SURRENDER (if avail.)...same as "DD" immediately above....what Ace-hole ever surrenders 19?
---BEST PLAY = STAND!
(9) "Looking for lots of small cards played"...Lots of Big Cards played also important......DECREASE your bet AND Play changes when appropriate.
(10) "How to play and have a Snowball's chance"...covered above, BS then CC'ing, then, AND ONLY THEN, consider advanced techniques.
(11) "Best approach"....ALL OF THE ABOVE!
(12) "Best Counting Technique"....N/A...any common system is FINE! Certainly, those who use more complex multi-level systems gain +EV, but USUALLY "Give it Back" with errors/fatigue/etc. Conversely, level-one "simple" systems have less +EV on the front-end, but with less errors, AND LESS -EV affect of said errors, gain back most losses against more complex systems.
Hope this info. is helpful.
Phantom007.
good post 007! *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 29-May-2005 06:34:46 (#13204)
First Things First
Posted by SammyBoy on 31-May-2005 14:08:07 (#13227)
If Steve Randall is your real name or anywhere close to it, post with a different handle. It could come back to bite you in the ass one day.
Seeing the ass-end of variance
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 29-May-2005 01:01:28 (#13203)
Good God, it's been 4 losing sessions for every winner all year and I trashed my bankroll a couple of nights ago. Got a monster count 1/3 of the way into a 8D shoe and I let the dogs out on them. By the end of the shoe (I found a dealer cutting down to 1.25D), the dealer got 4 naturals to my 0 and 3 of them were face so I couldn't insure. The sickest part was I walked away from the table feeling like a good counter because I accurately predicted naturals and didn't walk away from the high count during this train wreck. Now I have to wait a month or two before I have enough cash to properly play again. Crap, I should have stuck with stocks, at least I didn't stink like smoke after staying up all night doing due diligence.
We all understand......
Posted by Anthony on 29-May-2005 10:10:32 (#13205)
Automatic Monkey,
Well CC brother, I know it's not going to make you feel better right now, but you just have to roll with it. From previous posts you spoke of being an avid shoe player, I take it you don't live in Vegas. It's a tuff feeling when the dealer beats us in those high count big-bet play, and I'm not talking loosing 6/10. The positive is that you were playing with an advantage and it just didn't go your way. As far as the stock market goes, just hope the stocks you were joing to buy, hope they plunge, and you still have action on the market, just the other way. You'll be alright, and remember, the swing will come your way too.
Take it Easy
Anthony
Then there's always the other end
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 30-May-2005 22:52:03 (#13212)
I went back today, just because I had an opportunity to erase the feeling of losing. With a 'Hail Mary' bankroll of about 50% trip RoR, exacerbated by the high table mins on the holiday. And I won it all back and then some, plus got a valuable comp out of a casino host. Holy cow! Now I have enough to play a proper game with proper RoR.
My bankroll took a beating these past few months. There was: $5K on April 15 between taxes and maxing out tax free accounts, a $3K bill for an expensive Christmas gift for my girlfriend (37" LCD TV), plus (you'll all love this) almost $4K in motor vehicle fines from other states from incidents dating back to when I was 18-20. (Two speeding tickets, license suspended because I didn't have money to pay them, plus more tickets for getting caught driving with suspended license. All unpaid, surcharges, interest, etc., etc.) That was 20 years ago, but due to new restrictions on drivers license renewals all this stuff caught up to me when I renewed mine. Bad variance at the table was the last thing I needed, great to finally get some of the good kind.
Statute of Limitations?
Posted by Cyrano on 10-Jun-2005 20:07:45 (#13285)
I'm surprised they kept those fines from when you were 18-20. I was caught for driving on a suspended license over 5 years ago and managed to dodge it until this year. When I went back to renew my license this past May, I was waiting for the sh!t to hit the fan and it never did. Apparently, the fine was dropped in March.
splitting tens
Posted by trog on 30-May-2005 08:13:05 (#13207)
just curious, i have read that this will draw heat ect.. but what is the proper time to do it with a good count going ect.. against 4-5 or all other cards.
couple of answers.
Posted by stainless steel rat on 30-May-2005 10:35:08 (#13208)
Wong's complete hi-lo indices say split 10-10 vs 6 at +4, 10-10 vs 5 at +5, 10-10 vs 4 at +6, and if you want to go further, 10-10 vs 3 at +8...
They may or may not attract attention, depending on how you do it and what kind of "personna" you project at the table. It is one of the highest-EV plays around when done correctly, but it is also one of the most spectacular, and one of the most noticed.
There are good "apparent reasons" for doing this. If you have an obnoxious player at the table, that keeps ragging players about making wrong decisions or about "screwing up the flow of the cards" then you can split 10's at the right time, saying something like "OK, you want to see someone screw up the flow of the cards, watch this..." Etc...
BEST TIME to Split 10's.......
Posted by phantom007 on 30-May-2005 21:58:35 (#13210)
Agree that this "move" is an excellent Ploppy Deterrent! And probably not that costly in EV, when you are otherwise getting away with a Wide Spread. Certainly, -EV easily made-up (presuming this move is being made at ultra-Neg. TC's) by Heads-up action and LOTS more rounds per Hr./session. Except for DD on Stiffs, I have seen no other move clear the table as quick as a "10-splitter".
OTHERWISE, the BEST TIME to Split 10's is:
(1) At the appropriate ++TC's.
(2) AND, Especially SWEET when TC is high enough, and/or "draws" LOW ENOUGH, to justify RS-10's (i.e., Re-split 10's).
(3) AND, OTHERWISE, probably should be reserved for your LAST 1-2 Hands of a Positive Shoe/Deck, WHEN YOU WERE LEAVING ANYHOW!.....will just draw too much attention....unless, of course, as above, you do it frequently (in Neg. Cts.).
Personally, as a "PAMILS", i.e., "Play-All, Mega-Indicie, Low-Spreader" type of player, I cannot afford to make this move in Neg. Cts. However, in that I am often making PRIMAE FACIAE STUPID Plays anyways (Hit 12 v. 6, 14 v. 2, not DD'ing 11 v. 10....in of course, Neg. Cts.), I often can get away with a few 10-Splits here-and-there.
Phantom007.
I was really thinking
Posted by stainless steel rat on 30-May-2005 23:43:23 (#13216)
of only positive counts. That is, I don't split 10's in - count situations except _very_ rarely when someone is so damned obnoxious that it is worthwhile simply to make the game more enjoyable by chasing them off. But with a + count (correct index play) it is still dangerous. And there is where you can misdirect attention by appearing to split tens to aggravate an obnoxious player, or you can say "the cards have been miserable, I'm going to split these to change the flow and see if it gets better." Etc...
I'm one of those "no -EV plays if at all possible". Which means that I really try to play correctly every play, unless there is some reason to deviate. Heat or scrutiny. Or an obnoxious ass. :)
just remember
Posted by Victoria on 31-May-2005 12:58:09 (#13223)
Just remember that your declaration about changing the flow and anything else you say or do that might influence the pit into thinking you are just some maniac gambler does you no good if the eye is already evaluating your play.
For that reason and all the attention you do bring to yourself, I (there have been exceptions) split tens when three things happen, the count calls for it, the shoe is almost over and I am leaving the casino. This way even if the eye was evaluating my play, I am out the door before they can show me the door. And we all know that after you split tens, if they were not watching you before, they will be now.
Victoria
good point
Posted by stainless steel rat on 31-May-2005 13:21:11 (#13225)
When I split 10's on a high count, I am leaving very soon anyway, as you point out it attracts attention. But also don't forget, I don't believe that the eye will watch unless the pit has raised a red flag first. Staying under the pit's radar generally should keep the eye away unless things are very slow or they just happen to pick your table to train a new surv. guy/girl...
You can split 10's on other counts too
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 31-May-2005 14:20:09 (#13228)
Occasionally splitting 10's on decent counts like +1 or +2 against 5 or 6 where you're not at a terrible disadvantage but where you haven't started to raise your bet costs you a little bit but not as much as failing to split them at high counts. So I throw some extra 10 splits in there, it makes some ploppies leave and if surveillance is counting along with me, they're thinking I'm not doing a very good job. Lots of fun things can be done for cover at minimum bet levels with no real harm done. Sometimes I toss out a red for partial insurance too, just like a ploppy does.
Then there's the dreaded DD on 12!
Ploppies Split Tens
Posted by Big Cowboy on 31-May-2005 18:24:07 (#13231)
I see idiots splitting tens all the time when I play. I have never seen an appropriate split based on the count--except by me of course. I would agree it's a great way to chase people away. But with all of the different types of players out there with different levels of skill, does that truly bring on heat? Are there other plays which bring on heat? For example, I do hit on a hard 17 sometimes when the count demands it. Is that just as bad?
the main counter-indicator
Posted by stainless steel rat on 31-May-2005 19:26:26 (#13235)
is probably insurance. It can be a dead give-away for those that know about this, which at least the anti-counter software knows about.
How about insure then surrender?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 31-May-2005 23:19:57 (#13239)
Oh does that one get attention! Normally I just pay that one straight, explaining to the dealer and players that insurance is just a sidebet and it has nothing to do with your hand. Or I'll use some tritism like "Insure the bet, not the hand" because in the shoe game when you take insurance you invariably have a large bet out.
yeah...
Posted by stainless steel rat on 01-Jun-2005 09:36:10 (#13240)
I had an interesting problem doing that last year on the MS coast. Dealer had an Ace showing, I and a 9-7. TC was +6, so I promptly insured. No 10 down, so I surrendered. Dealer said "you can't surrender, you just insured and lost." I said "insurance is a side-bet independent of my hand. Whether i win or lose the insurance doesn't affect my hand except that if I win the insurance, I lose my hand since you had a 21..."
This went on and on, pit critter came over. Finally a call "upstairs" allowed my surrender. I immediately left, too much attention.
Another Way To Play 16 vs. A
Posted by Dog Hand on 24-Jun-2005 21:06:21 (#13383)
SSR,
When I get the dreaded 16 vs. A at a Surrender game, I just toss them in and surrender while the dealer is asking for insurance bets.
<U>Usually</U>, the dealer tells me I have to wait for her to check for BJ, but you'd be surprised how many half-bets I've saved over the years! ;-)
Dog Hand
Indices for tens splitting
Posted by CanKen on 31-May-2005 18:51:48 (#13232)
Risk-averse indices are higher. See BJA Ch.13.
cowboy exactly it is a great dummy move
Posted by eyesfor21 on 31-May-2005 19:12:10 (#13233)
its amazing how many counters are afraid of it.
I saw a very good player that was sitting beside Stanford Wong
and his friend,
a while back and another good player at the table
split tens boy o boy Wong and his friend left
immediatly..I guess they thought
it would bring heat the scared boys ran.no one was doing anything..
talk about jumping the gun..
Bringing heat is what so many do,,play at a 25
table play at 100 then drop to 25 then move up to 300.etc.
UAPC Surrender
Posted by jblaze on 30-May-2005 21:46:29 (#13209)
Does anyone know if revised APC surrender indicies have ever come out (for s17 das 6-8deck)? Uston's indicies given in MDBJ seem... off. Don't know what software you need to devise indicies given conditions.
software
Posted by stainless steel rat on 30-May-2005 23:10:35 (#13213)
CVData from www.qfit.com
RE: indices
Posted by jblaze on 31-May-2005 22:53:17 (#13238)
If anyone is so inclined, generation of these indicies would be much appreciated!
New java applet to practice counting down a deck...
Posted by The Mayor on 30-May-2005 23:31:07 (#13214)
I hope this works in your browser! Feedback appreciated.
http://www.cardcounter.com/Counter/
--Mayor
How bout a betting circle
Posted by suicyco maniac on 30-May-2005 23:39:20 (#13215)
The first deck I counted went sky high....seriously though maybe an option to show two cards at once since that is a pretty common way to count in a live game. SM
doesn't work well here
Posted by stainless steel rat on 30-May-2005 23:46:26 (#13217)
I have a sony vaio 750mhz laptop. The applet is very jerky. The cards sometimes seem to come in "clumps" and sometimes no cards are shown at all for a couple of seconds...
FIrst time may be choppy
Posted by The Mayor on 31-May-2005 00:29:45 (#13218)
It has to download small images for each card -- the first time you run it, this may make it choppy (net lag), but after the images are in cache, it should be smooth.
Like My EX-wife!.......
Posted by phantom007 on 31-May-2005 00:33:13 (#13219)
I clicked "Right" and nothing happened, then "Left" and nothing happened, THEN RIGHT IN THE CENTER, and nothing happened!
AT LEAST IT JUST COST ME circa. 2-cents' worth of electricity, AND NO LEGAL FEES!
GRIN!
BTW, any idea how us Rural "DIAL-ups" can make this work?
GRIN!?
pH.7
I had to try it 4 or 5 times
Posted by SammyBoy on 31-May-2005 13:18:38 (#13224)
But now it works like a champ.
I like it *NM*
Posted by Anthony on 31-May-2005 14:21:24 (#13229)
But this one is better
Posted by The Mayor on 31-May-2005 15:15:36 (#13230)
Found this online...
http://home.san.rr.com/bjstuff/
I think I'll let mine pass into the good night...
--Mayor
The Stork climbs scales Sunrise
Posted by zengrifter on 31-May-2005 19:25:16 (#13234)
Stuart is a field and track athlete ... and now a rock-climber as well. zg
---------------------------------
From: Stuart Wild
To: griftzen@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 12:15 PM
Subject: The Sunrise flux
Dear Zen
Yesterday I was so sick of my losing streak that it I decided to climb
a mountain about 5.30 pm. Sunset mountain is pretty high but like a
dutch man we take our risks for granted.....well well.
Going up a mountain is ok. I did not realise that sometimes I could fall about 50 meters deep. But there ws no other way going up. By midnight I reached the top. I think it is about 1200 meters that mountain.
Coming at the top I had this wonderfull preview at las vegas and
decided to sleep on a piece of rock. Of course sleeping near a wild dog isn't
everything and I thought for a while, that walking back would be a
better option.
Full of adventures spirit I decided to climb down the other
side because I thought that was easier. After sliding down the rocks
for 70 meter I realised that I was stuck in the middle of the night.
Going down was to steep and thinking to go up I realised that I forgot
how I came here in the first place.
Sitting there or better say standing there I started really seeing the
problems coming. Tired and slightly panicing I ordered myself to calm down.
Hilarious enough I had an excelent view at the strip but the worldseries of
blackjack seemed to be further away then ever. 3 oranges, and one small piece
of rock I could decide to move through was all I had. I never ever
experienced such a danger as before.
Being here in this miserable situation I thought about Zengrifter my guru in blackjack sitting somewhere at the strip playing his game. I could see him playing; shall I call him to say goodbye whenever my feet will not get that small piece of rock? ...hmmmm
Blackjack fluctutation was a piece of cake compared to this scenario. One slide
and I was f**king dead. I ordered myself to stay momentarely aware of
the situation, and was forced to take that small piece of rock at zen
level.
Hanging over a cliff around 1am in the morning isn't the best time I've experienced but... I did not slide and after I had to climb all the way back up and then discovered a normal way down. I fell about 50 times on my arse
but I took that as a forced rest.
I might do some slightly tougher workout after a losing blackjack session next time. lol
Your friend and student.
Stuart (aka 'Stork')
That's hardcore *NM*
Posted by Garo on 02-Jun-2005 22:22:00 (#13255)
Kids who tamed Vegas
Posted by zengrifter on 31-May-2005 21:01:33 (#13236)
Kids who tamed Vegas
May 26, 2005
Paul Kalina | TheAge.com
There are few things more enjoyable than watching a victimless crime unfold and few subjects more deserving of such a fate than a Las Vegas casino.
America's gambling authorities mightn't favour that view but American filmmaker Gordon Forbes III thinks it's a good enough reason to document the legendary achievements of a gang of university students who took on Las Vegas at its own game.
The practice of card counting, where blackjack players use a mathematical calculation to predict the probability of the house or the player winning the hand, was devised in the early 1960s by a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
His teachings weren't forgotten. In the early 1990s, groups of students formed teams, complete with shadowy groups of investors, and converged on the gambling meccas of Vegas.
"They took Vegas for a ride but they didn't break the law and they didn't break the rules," Forbes says.
"No one really thought these guys are criminals. Spoilt kids, maybe, but they had a good thing going and everyone cheers someone who can take millions of dollars from Vegas casinos."
It's estimated that they netted between $6 million and $8 million and though that's a drop in the ocean for the casinos the students found themselves ejected or simply not admitted to the casinos.
Andrew Tay was an MIT student from 1993 to 2000. A keen card player since his early years, he was invited to join a team. After four trips to Vegas, he was hooked.
"Living the high roller lifestyle in Vegas isn't something most 21-year-olds get to experience," Tay (not his real name) told Green Guide from Los Angeles, where he is now a television writer. "It was a wild time," he says without a hint of apology or shame.
For some it was an intellectual thrill, for others it became a profession. For Tay, the lure was the lifestyle and the money.
"At 21 everyone wants to be James Bond, to walk into a casino and have a secret hand signal that allows you to sit where no one else can, place a $20,000 bet with no fear of losing and walk out the winner with the money, the smile, the girl, the tuxedo. At 21, that's a fantasy but that's pretty much what we were doing," he recalls.
Forbes says the documentary offers a non-blinkered view of blatant free-market capitalism.
"The students were just as capitalistic as the casinos. It was one group of capitalists working against another group. I think it's just a case that the gambling casinos are set up for one reason and one reason only and that's to take your money."
Tay has a more defiant view of the power casinos wield.
"You'd think they'd have a more enlightened view of what the game is and the fact that they've structured a game that is very significantly slanted to their advantage. They have a very businesslike attitude, which from the moment you walk in is to extract as much money (as they can).
"I think the entire idea of trying to legislate thought (in outlawing card counting), which is pretty much what they're doing, is despicable. Because what they're saying is 'we're providing a game and as long as I don't use my brain in a certain way I can play.' "
Ironically, Tay's last visit to Vegas was to speak to investors at the opening of a new casino.
"My introduction was basically 'I've no idea why you'd want me here, I'm the bad guy.' I told them what I don't like about the casino industry and that there are plenty of people in America for whom gambling is an addiction and a real problem."
And did he place a bet? "Sure I did, I've got to cover my costs," he laughs.
Gambling-related articles are at ZenZone. *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 31-May-2005 21:15:48 (#13237)
Highly recommended!
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Jun-2005 11:09:42 (#13243)
Definitely check out ZG's postings -- the Ungar biography is excellent.
CVPost Post Formatter
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 01-Jun-2005 09:52:50 (#13241)
<table width=100%><tr><td align="center"><font color="#0000FF" size=8>CVPost</font></td></tr></table>
<font size=3>For those that have wanted to post using:</font>
<font size=5>Font Sizes</font>
<font color="#FF0000" size=3>Color</font>
<font size=3>Bolding</font>
<font size=3><u>Underlines</u>
Italics</font>
<li><font size=3>Bullet</font></li>
<li><font size=3>Points</font></li>
<font size=3><table width=100%><tr><td align="center"> Centering</td></tr></table>
</font>
Fixed Columns
111.0 222.8
3.2 47.9
</pSerious Blackjack Software
Great!
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Jun-2005 10:51:02 (#13242)
Thanks for your generosity!
Paranoia 101: A Professional Gambler's Guide to Casino Heat
Posted by zengrifter on 01-Jun-2005 21:11:24 (#13246)
Paranoia 101: A Professional Gambler's Guide to Casino Heat
By 98%
© 2003 Blackjack Forum
(From Blackjack Forum, Vol. XXII #3, Fall 2003)
Friends of mine who are not among the professional gamblers community often tell me that I am needlessly paranoid. Some blackjack players have even told me the same, sometimes going as far as laughing at my refusal to walk into a casino in their presence. Perhaps they are right to make light of my paranoia, but I think they are wrong. In fact, I often wonder if I am paranoid enough about casino heat to make it in this business for long.
When I walk into a casino under the guise of a gambler who is relaxed and comfortable in his environment, I am on high alert, looking for any signs of trouble. Awareness is one of the most valuable weapons in any advantage player's arsenal and it should be honed to a preternatural level by anyone who intends to become serious in his casino exploits. Many of the ideas in this article have been discussed previously in the vast body of blackjack literature, but, in light of seeing many players in action in the casinos failing miserably to remain aware of their surroundings, instead becoming lost in their own worlds, I was inspired to reiterate some of these ideas and, in some cases, delve into them a little more deeply.
The Casino
Many threats await an advantage player in the casinos, the most widely-discussed of which is casino heat. Heat is unavoidable once a player reaches a certain level of play, but its repercussions can be minimized by the aware player. The first sign, especially when playing in a place where you should not be known or where you should be well-liked, is any sign of unfriendly recognition on the part of the security guards right when you walk in the door. Unless you have had interactions in the past with a guard that would warrant her remembering you, you should see no hint of recognition of you on her part. If you do, then that is a good sign that you could be in for some trouble if you elect to pursue your financial gain in this establishment. Recognition by a guard is only one potential threat here, as there is always the chance the eye has already picked you up from the moment you hit the property. If one or more guards begin to follow you or start speaking into their headsets when you walk by, it is time to make for the door, because you are far too hot in this particular establishment to try and make any money. The wise decision is to leave and find a more welcoming house and give it some time before attempting to return.
...continued - http://blackjackforumonline.com/content/paranoia.html
Re: CRIMINAL ACTIVITY......
Posted by phantom007 on 01-Jun-2005 23:50:07 (#13247)
Some of this info. has been previously posted here and/or elsewhere, but, for the benefit of newer students/readers, and likely for the bemusement of the Pro's, I shall repost the story of the time...
"I BIT THE BIG-ONE" (sub-title: I TOOK THE BIG ONE UP THE A$$!).....
---Time: circa. 2001.
---Place: LV, North Strip locale.
---B/R: $40k cash (yes, STUPID in retrospect...but I was smart enough to remove the paper clips that grouped said $ into $1k increments....less airport heat.
---Education level: Left HS early to attend College, tested out of most of my Freshman year of College, B.S. Degree in Biochem. at age 20, 2-years of Grad. School, 4-years of Prof. School, then 3-years of "Post-Prof." training. In other words, in some circles, I AIN'T A TOTAL DUMB-A$$! And, by this time, I had gave up Craps as my primary game, became an expert at PROGRESSIVE BJ, then discounted same, because, despite some MASSIVE wins, there always seemed to be just a few more MASSIVE losses. With BS pretty much mastered, I FURTHERED MY EDUC. by reading a "Couple of BJ Books". I WAS READY! My first trip as a CC'er!
---BJ Skill level: Probably LESS than a PLOPPY! Good BS, and in retrospect, rudimentary CC'ing skills, plus LOT's of MISTAKES, and recurrent tendencies to revert to the PROGRESSIVE MODE (over-exosing $$$$ to mega-NEG. Cts., I know now).
---Real-World Skill Level: TOTAL DUMB A$$!
ANYHOW, THE STORY:
First trip out as a CC'er. Spreading med. green to black, and sometimes, black to med. black. Over a 7-day trip, ALL action at the same store....typically play 18-20 hrs./day, sleep a little, then do it again. While the B/R ultimately took a $17k HIT, only $16,200. went to the Casino for this trip.
The other $850. disappeared in a few minutes like this. A nice young man of about age 30 sits down to my right, watches me play a hand or two, then said:
"I watched you playing over at THAT Table this afternoon (where I had been that afternoon). You may not recall (Hell, I was Sh#t-Faced....lucky that I could even recall being at THAT table), but the guy sitting next to you was my Father. (Again, Hell, I could not recall much of anything past the fact that I had been at said Table that afternoon).'
"He told me that you are an EXPERT BJ Player! (EGO-BONER!).'
"Dad will be down in a few minutes, and would like to play again at the same table with you! (EGO-BONER!) He is carrying our money. Would you loan me a Thousand to start playing until he gets down here, then he will pay you back."
And so, with my neophyte CC'er ego properly groomed:
1. I slide over to him #10 Black, to which he immediately "changes-down" a hundred-or-so for Reds and Greens.
2. He plays for 10-15 minutes, always betting $5-10., and otherwise, PLYING THE WORST BJ THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN! He split, hit, and DD'd NOTHING. His 13 v. 10-up....STAND!
3. At the end of his playing time, he states: "Well, Dad has not came down yet. I will go to the Cashier, and cash a Check, so that I can pay you back."
Sounded good to me, but as he left, I realized that he had left only one Black + change to hold his spot, and had took the rest with him!
4. The DEALER said: "Something is not right here", as Me, She, and the rest of the Table turned 180-degrees to watch the GUY. He did go to the Cashier's Cage....calming me and everyone else down.....but then WENT FOR THE EXIT!
5. I screamed for the PC, Security, etc., but he got away! A few minutes later, several PC's AND Security Folk are at my table, showing me photo's (Yes, likely Griffin)..."Is this the guy?"...."Yes"....."He pulled the same thing at Rio last week, and at Cesars last month".
6. As an aside, these were GOOD Photo's. Some taken at that store THEN, and some taken at other stores days and weeks prior. JUST IN CASE ANYONE IS INTERESTED!
7. Whatever, PC finally came back to let me know that this guy had "got away", and that "I should never give/loan $$$$ to those that I do not know".
8. "NO SH#T!"
Wow!
Posted by Learning to count on 02-Jun-2005 06:55:11 (#13249)
All due respect you were a dunb arse. In my early days as an CCer I was with a friend who was a mere degenerate drunk gambler who was having a 12 hour voodoo streak. He won over 9K on slots and roulette. I stood by and watched the action. I watched his back as well. It is something how money draws a crowd, A bystander started a friendly conversation with my friend and was able to CON him that he could hold his winnings while he played. My buddy was drunk. I quickly stepped in and grabbed the idiot by the neck and shoved him away from the cash and when he attempted to protest. I reinforced my previous act by explaining to the dirt bag that he was about to be crushed and possibly disfigured. The ass ran off. In short where there is money there will be thieves, hookers, and horny women. If your going to spend your moeny spend it on horny women!
LTC, I Like the Way You Think! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 02-Jun-2005 10:58:28 (#13250)
Isn't a bad loan a civil matter?
Posted by Anthony on 02-Jun-2005 14:53:12 (#13251)
007
You stated that he asked if he could borrow 1,000 dollars. I'm curious if that is considered a bad debt, and if so, wouldn't that be something handled in civil court. Or, is it theft by false pretenses? I'm sure they have something to charge him with something. I was just curious.
Anthony
this was 'BUNCO' ... *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 02-Jun-2005 18:56:38 (#13252)
... criminal statuate. zg
ZG.....Is this the All-Seeing A$$hole???... *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 06-Jun-2005 19:37:29 (#13266)
Gypsies
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 02-Jun-2005 20:00:45 (#13253)
One time I'm sitting at the table, and two guys and a girl come up to my left, and the girls starts playing at the spot. I heard them speaking to one another in the Romany language, not to be prejudiced or anything but it would be unwise to totally disregard this fact. Anyway, the girl starts talking to me, and I forgot exactly how the reparte went but she ended up showing me part of her unremarkable breasts. This did nothing for me but set off alarms so I reached down, took my wallet and cash and moved it to my right side. By the next hand, they had all moved to my right side, and I immediately moved my cash back to my left side. They glared at me fearsomely, and moved on to the next table. I mentioned something to the dealer.
Define "Unremarkable Breasts"........
Posted by phantom007 on 06-Jun-2005 19:47:42 (#13267)
A.M., it has been so long since I have seen one (or two) socially, that it may have been worth the ROR! To me, in my current situation, most any Breast that I see outside of work is REMARKABLE!
GRIN!
"Is that a BLACK STACK in your pants, or are you just glad to see me?"
ph.007.
About 50, small
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Jun-2005 11:19:39 (#13270)
There was really nothing to be said for them, as I recall. People easily make me suspicious, thus I'm a hard guy to rip off. This is a good characteristic to develop when playing in LV or AC or similar venues that attract a lot of grifters of the non-Zen kind.
Hey doesn't being a pervert interfere with being a doctor? "Young lady, you have a minor vaginal obstruction, and I have a special instrument to remove it. Now just hold still and try to relax." One of my friends when I was a teenager is now a famous radio doctor. He was the worst whoremonger who ever lived, almost got himself killed out picking up streetwalkers once in a deadly neighborhood.
lol
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 07-Jun-2005 15:51:02 (#13273)
"One of my friends when I was a teenager is now a famous radio doctor. He was the worst whoremonger who ever lived, almost got himself killed out picking up streetwalkers once in a deadly neighborhood. "
Hey Automatic,
Not Dr. Phil.....but Dr. FEEL.....
Posted by phantom007 on 07-Jun-2005 20:45:16 (#13277)
but while we are on the subject of "Professionalism", one my favorite lines, guaranteed to bring a ROAR from the Nurses, thought usually not from the Patient, is to:
A. Insert the v#ginal speculum vertically (as both NATURE & the Manufactuer Intended), and properly lubricated, of course, then turn clockwise 90-degrees.
B. Open said instrument #3-5 clicks (kind of like a gas pump nozzle).
C. Then state in a LOUD VOICE: "WONDER IF I CAN MAKE AN ECHO!"
D. Then, every 5 seconds, in a DECRESCENDO Voice: "Make an Echo...make an echo...mak a eko....etc."
Some state that the best laughs come from the BELLY, but I suggest that some of the very best come from the PELVIC!
ph.7.
Deerhunting?
Posted by Stuart Wild on 04-Jun-2005 21:12:57 (#13258)
They were already jumping on me at the california cardclub at fremondstreet because of the word f**k....... LOL I had to leave with 3 guards looking like illigal aliens themselves. Might as well go deer hunting,
The Stork
To live and die in LV part 3
Posted by Stuart Wild on 03-Jun-2005 20:03:01 (#13256)
last week I was wonging the mountains, right now I am somewhat confused.
A beautifull fluctuation, something about 1900 dollar this week in the minor makes me ready to fall apart, but the Stork would not be the Stork if there would not be a new day. Another day embraced by another cup of coffee, what for this moment is the highest point of my current scenario lets say; swell?
Professionals do understand that the reason why they are left alone, is that they embrace everything most "space cadets" are running away from!
The Stork rather dies for that he loves, and that what gives him joy than looking around and see all those collective excuses playing happy theater.
What? Part 1 *NM*
Posted by Hal Jordan on 04-Jun-2005 16:41:12 (#13257)
the new national blackjack song....lol
Posted by Stuart Wild on 05-Jun-2005 00:16:56 (#13259)
For all the musicians under you I can tell that we will launch soon the new national blackjack song what goes like this:
Sitting at a table,
with the sunglasses at my face,
I am watching the seeling,
meeting pitbosses controlling the reflections of my pace,
When the count goes up,
the heat is on,
when the count goes up,
I am gonna bust the dealer down......
No where to hide,
They all watching me,
No where to go,
More and more I need just to be..
Because when the count goes up,
I need to be crazy and insane,
Means drinking wodka,
in between killing this table
While making the dealer insane...
Cooooockkktails no please go
Sorry? you do not mean that!?
Meanwhile showing 4 times 21!!!
Fabulous vegas?
A teenage waste land
Or still a boulevard of scattered dreams?
The Stork will always return....lol
What? Part 2. *NM*
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 05-Jun-2005 11:49:51 (#13261)
The Paper Trip book question??does it work
Posted by 123kid on 05-Jun-2005 08:40:03 (#13260)
I read on another site about a book called the paper trip.I need a different players card and would like a picture id so i can get the comps.has anyone read it and does it work? is it legal to attempt to get a fake id as long as im not using it for any serious purposes.thanks
Fake ID
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 06-Jun-2005 10:30:34 (#13263)
I have not read the paper trip. So I can't discuss that. However concerning a fake ID, I have heard that it is illegal to possess an ID that is intentionally made to replicate an official government issue ID.
Couple ways around this:
Carry both ID's and if ever questioned by the authorities, present the real ID. If you don't get caught with the fake, you are okay.
Have the fake ID made such that it does not "replicate" an official government issue ID. This may work if you just make up your own type of drivers license from some state that isn't the typical clientele of your gambling destination. As an example: Maybe you go to Tunica a lot, I'll bet not many people from Alaska go to Tunica. If you make some ID that says you are from Alaska, I don't think anyone in the casino will know its fake. Specifically the ladies at the player's club booth.
make one?
Posted by 123kid on 06-Jun-2005 10:57:24 (#13264)
I dont have a clue how to make an id. Im not worried about getting caught with a fake id.it would be used to get the players card and once in awhile getting comps.I would always have my real id.
Fake ID
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 06-Jun-2005 13:33:13 (#13265)
I really don't know how to make one either, I was more or less referring to having one made.
If you are not concerned with getting caught with the ID, what is your concern? Once you get the player's card, the only time you will need it is when you check into your room and maybe to use other comps. You may want to have your real address on the fake ID, that way any mailings will still come to you. An alternative is to have a fake address on the ID, but when you sign up for the player's card you tell them that you recently moved. Give them your real address or a PO box at the booth. This way the mail offers still get to you.
As far as obtaining a fake ID... that is the real trick isn't it. My only suggestion is ask around. Talk to some co-workers who may be invloved in the more seedy areas of society. If you happen to be a college student, you may have an easier time of obtaining one. If you happen to know any degenerate high school students, then you may have your source.
The Answers You (WE) Seek will not be found on the Public Boards.....
Posted by phantom007 on 06-Jun-2005 20:29:43 (#13268)
I have asked this question multiple times on this and other BJ sites, i.e., "Where can I get a "realistic" FAKE I.D.?"
The closest I ever got to a real answer was to: "Drive through east LA, and look for a Hispanic man standing outside a Pharmacy (sic) wearing a sign reading "Realistic Fake I.D.'s Inside".
I have easily got "Fake" Credit Cards....just tell your CC-company that "phantom007" is now on your account....problem = No valid ID to back it!
I have checked out (BUT NEVER PURCHASED) various sites on the internet that offer same....they LOOK GOOD....will they pass scrutiny.....I DO NOT KNOW. Also, since most, if not all, are OFFSHORE...difficult to get refund if you are not satisfied.
With that said:
1. There are GOOD FAKE I.D.'s out there...age 19-20 College Students are likely a good source! But, where my own age 19-20 son goes to College, a bunch of kids just got arrested for doing same off of their in-room computers! DAMN! Maybe I should suggest that my son transfer!
2. "I am just a tourist, and will only be here for another 1/2 hour"...works good when true!
3. ONE of the BEST I have ever heard!..."Hell No! If I give you my ID, you will send mailers to my House. My wife will just SH#T if she knows that I have been back in the casinos again!"
Other ideas include:
A. "Borrow" abandoned Player's Cards from the Slots.....certainly risky, such as a middle-age Caucasian trying to play BJ as "Wong Hung Lo", or along the same line, an Oriental trying to pass off as "Jim Winston Smith".
B. BUY Player's Cards from obvious One-time tourists....walk up to the North Little Rock Village group, as they are checking out, and offer $5 each for their Player's Cards.....good for them (they won't likely be back) and good for you!
Just some thoughts.
Phantom007.
good ideas
Posted by 123kid on 06-Jun-2005 23:56:50 (#13269)
but i want to get my own id so i can redeem comps.i can use a friends id, but number 1, i dont want them involved with my counting ,and number 2, all the offers will be in their name.I was hoping someone read the book and can tell me if its worth it.my thinking is, if it did work, it no longer does, because of 9/11.
u can get id that says no govt id
Posted by eyesfor21 on 07-Jun-2005 12:01:19 (#13271)
when it says this is not a govt doucument id on it, that it is not
illegal,but good
enough to use for cards..etc.
You chose the stats you want on it..A gal I know makes some
for around 30 bucks..
or there are a few sites online that make really good ids.
one is out of Sweden but its 200 bucks.
not a goverment id??
Posted by 123kid on 07-Jun-2005 13:17:49 (#13272)
I bought a couple of those in high school.I didnt know you can use those for players cards.I thought it had to be a state issued id or passport.Have you actually used that id for Players cards.
YES, for many years
Posted by eyesfor21 on 07-Jun-2005 20:33:01 (#13275)
the real small print says not a govt document..
most are identical to the state license colors so
at first glance they look similar.
Yes, I had some made... *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Jun-2005 22:08:25 (#13278)
... that said "Motor Services Vehicle" (instead of motor-vehicle-services) and on the back restricted me to a 1-20 spread at 2D games. Not illegal at all and work fine. zg
Ps - However - http://www.cardcounter.com/ZG.pl?read=3541
Card Counting Around Nevada's Nowhere Towns
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Jun-2005 20:26:02 (#13274)
On The Road to Nevada's Nowhere Towns (Card Counting Around Nevada)
By Barry Meadow
© Blackjack Forum 2000
Blackjack Forum Vol. XX #2, Summer 2000
The road is long With many a-winding turn,That leads us to who knows where, Who knows where.
Uh, I know where. I've been there. Most of us have doubled down and split pairs all over Las Vegas and Reno.
Some of us have comp-hustled in Laughlin or surrendered in Lake Tahoe. But I say if you're going to play serious blackjack in Nevada, hit the road.
That means blackjack in Tonopah and McDermitt and Ely and Jackpot and every other place you've seen on the map, only it was too damn far or too damn cold and why the heck would you drive a hundred miles to Lovelock when there was exactly one blackjack table in town and you'd look like a stalker trying to wong it?
I've been here, and there, and everywhere in Nevada. I counted cards at blackjack in every casino in the state during a two-month trip last year which consisted of me, a suitcase, and $8000. No entourage, no pals, no nothing but yours truly and one open road.
Every day, I'd record my observations on a tiny tape machine. I made more recordings in garages than a Seattle grunge band. And by the time I finished my trip, 192 casinos later, my laptop computer was in worse shape than Andy Sipowicz.
...continued here - http://blackjackforumonline.com/content/ontheroad.htm
NORTHEAST NEVADA TRIP REPORT
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Jun-2005 20:37:59 (#13276)
POSTED BY PERMISSION OF HENRY TAMBURIN,
PUBLISHER OF THE BLACKJACK INSIDER NEWSLETTER
http://www.bjinsider.com/newsletter.shtml
NORTHEAST NEVADA TRIP REPORT
By Scott Michaels
Blackjack Insider Newsletter, Feb. 2005, #61
Scott Michaels writes for Video Poker Player magazine (http://www.vpplayer.com/) and has been an advantage gambler since 1998. He specializes in video poker, live poker and blackjack. When playing blackjack, he uses the KO count. If you have any comments or questions, feel free to email Scott at scottmichaels@vpplayer.com.
Editors Note: If you are not familiar with video poker terms, Michaels has a glossary at the end of the article.
Having never ventured out into the great unknown of the sparsely populated towns of northern Nevada, I decided to take a road trip to the casinos in the northeast region of the state to see what sort of stories and creatures I could dig up. Our tale begins in Twin Falls, Idaho.
Jackpot was going to be my home base while I was in this region, so I hopped a flight to Twin Falls, ID. I had to connect in Salt Lake City to a Delta Connection puddle jumper into Twin Falls. The flight was very brief and as we taxied to the "terminal" (I use this term loosely) I immediately observed that the Delta flight I was on was the ONLY commercial plane at the entire airport. A trip to the ticket counter while waiting for my bag confirmed this. The airport flight schedule listed five flights in, and five flights out of Twin Falls for the entire day. When the baggage claim door slowly opened and I saw the actual baggage handler tossing bags to the passengers, I got a good chuckle out of it. Twenty paces later, I was at the rental car counter and forty paces after that I was in my Dodge Neon (yes, I'm cheap and the Neon is easy on gas) and on my way to Jackpot.
JACKPOT
This was my first jaunt into the 'high desert' type of climate and I had an altitude headache by the time I reached Jackpot (altitude of approximately 6000 feet). The drive was very pleasant since I had never experienced high desert geography; lots of plateaus, canyons and, of course, rolling plots of desert. Upon cresting the final hill, I saw Jackpot dead ahead. "Wow", I thought, "Cactus Pete's (an Ameristar property) appears to be a nice place for literally being in the middle of nowhere." Turns out I was right; they have 300 rooms and are a 4 Diamond Mobil casino resort.
I checked into a nice Granite Range room, which was about 600 square feet with plenty of space in the living and bath area. The rooms were very well maintained and furnished nicely...especially for a property built in the 70's. It gets the thumbs up sign of approval.
I ate meals in all of their outlets and I highly recommend their steakhouse, Plateau. If you make it there, the stuffed Anaheim chile appetizer is an absolute must. It's a large chile stuffed with cream cheese, tenderloin, onions, garlic and sprinkled with asiago cheese. At the coffee shop, they serve a wonderful Mexican chicken tortilla soup. The room service menu promoted "Country French Toast" and described it as French Toast battered and dipped in slivered almonds and whole oats, then fried. It was, by far, the best French Toast I've ever eaten.
The casino area is about 60K sq feet and features three bar areas, live entertainment on the weekend and a sportsbook (operated by Leroy's). If you get a chance to stop by the sportsbook, be sure to offer a nasty comment to George, the most surly ticket writer with whom I've ever interacted.
Now, on to what you're interested in...the gambling! Well, it's not fabulous, but if you're wandering aimlessly in northern Nevada, it'll do. Their single deck game was all D9, H17, DOA. Rule of 6 was pretty standard among most dealers, but a few offered up RO7. I didn't get too wild on my spreads, pretty much 1 to 5 with a $10 base unit and I didn't encounter any heat on several brief (30 minutes, max) sessions.
The video poker offerings were noteworthy. I observed (3) 10 coin $0.05 FPDW in the northern section of the casino near the exit doors to the pool. Their second best play is the (3) .25 Pickem slant tops facing the sports book. Quarter players can also play a couple of NSUD uprights near the buffet. If you prefer higher stakes, there are slant top NSUD in the $1 denomination and 9/6 JOB for big nickels and $10 near the sportsbook bar. High rolling multi-line players can play $1 10play NSUD in the same bank near the sportsbook. The best progressive play I located was 12/8 Loose Deuces. I didn't test the various meter percentages, but they weren't set that high since I did not observe any progressive over $1600 over the few days I was there.
Cashback is a paltry 0.13%, but that's the best you'll find in town since no other casino offers a slot club (the Horseshu shares the Player's Club with Cactus Pete's). Points can also be used for comps at the rate of 0.167%. Discretionary comps were available, but I did not have an opportunity to investigate the details.
Cactus Pete's offers the only live poker room in town. About six tables offering $3-$6 and $4-$8 Hold-Em. On the weekends, the floor said they frequently open a NL game with $1/$2 blinds and a $200 max buy-in. The games were very loose, on average 60% of the players paid to see the flop. The NL game never opened, so I can't share any nuggets of info with you on that.
HORSESHU
Across the street from Cactus Pete's is the Horseshu, another Ameristar property. If you want to experience gambling in a sawdust-type environment, this is the place for you. Wooden floors, low ceilings, more smoke than a Marlboro factory, swinging doors into the saloon and a rowdy crowd on the weekends. If I didn't have to get up the next morning, I'd have fit in nicely here as I did my best to get as inebriated as their average patron.
If you still want to soak up the environment, have a seat at their single deck BJ games. There are a total of 4 tables and the two PB's I observed seemed rather indifferent on monitoring the action. It's double 9, 10, 11 only, but has a $3 minimum if you want some action at a cheap price. Penetration was Rule of 6 from several different dealers I observed. On one session, I noticed a bent card (sadly, it wasn't a ten value or ace), and neither the pit nor dealer paid any attention to this, which speaks volumes on the game protection at this place.
The entire casino is 7K sq ft, so the VP machines could be counted on your fingers and toes. The lone machine that was playable was (1) $0.05 NSUD with a bad screen immediately to the right after you enter the casino
BARTON'S CLUB 93
Next door to the 'Shu is Barton's Club 93. This joint is rather unimpressive and seems to exist as an overflow alternative from Cactus Pete's.
The blackjack game is definitely worth a look. They're all single deck; they don't offer insurance and only allow doubling on 9 through 11. The good news is its all single deck and, depending on the dealer, they'll deal about 40 cards from the deck. Heads up, 7 rounds was the norm and I occasionally got 8. I kept my spreads pretty conservative; from $5 to $25, so I don't know how they'd react to someone really firing away. LVBear, of BJ21.com, states that preferential shuffling is common when spreading higher amounts. If you ever sit in on one of their games, be sure to look closely at the dealers' nametags. Many appear to be wearing the same badges they received decades ago when they were hired. One dealer had a long black mullet in his photo and now sported a receding grey hairline. I think the years in this place had an effect on them. Two dealers (one male and one female) rambled on more than I've ever heard at a table; one was spouting one bizarre one liner after another (laughing at himself after each one, of course) and the second dealer was having a grand time with her rambling train-of-thought diatribes.
The VP offerings were about as dreary as the casino environment. The best you can do is nickel and quarter NSUD. Not sure why any high rollers would want to play here, but no worries, there is nothing to tempt you. There isn't a dollar play to be found here. They do not offer a slot club, but have installed readers, so it would seem a club is on the way.
If you want to watch a game at the bar, don't bother since they don't have a TV at the bar or anywhere in the casino. Beer is served in a can, which pretty much sums up this place.
FOUR JACKS and PONY EXPRESS CASINOS
The two remaining casinos in Jackpot are both locals-style slot houses; no table games to be found and FPVP is a chore to find. At the Four Jacks, I located a couple quarter FPDW and at the Pony Express there was .25 9/6 JOB and NSUD. Neither joint offers a slot club.
WELLS
4 WAY
There are four casinos in town, but don't make plans to travel here anytime soon since two of them have been shuttered for years. The 4Way and Flying J casinos remain open. My first stop in town was the 4Way. While I was surveying the casino, the dealer (yes, singular tense) and pit boss were scoping my every move. I smiled and said, "I bet you're wondering what I'm doing." The pit boss said, "Yeah, I reckon I was." I explained that I was writing an article for a blackjack newsletter and another for a video poker magazine on all the BJ &VP in northeast Nevada. Have you ever seen a deer in the headlights? Well, that's the look I received. I decided to break the ice and play a few hands of blackjack. The dealer was sitting at the table reading a newspaper and smoking a cigarette and greeted me by saying, "You wanna play, honey?" Well, not wanting to disappoint these folks, I slapped down a Jackson on the felt. The dealer, dressed in blue jeans and a regular shirt, called out, "Change $20" and I was in action. The dealer started shuffling and I noticed it was a double deck game. I asked when they deal a single deck game and the pit boss said, "It depends." I replied, "Later on tonight? (it was a Friday)" and received an answer of, "It depends." Ok, I saw where this conversation was going so I decided I was going to focus my BJ counting skills and make some money from these simple folk. One look at the table limit placard put those wishes to bed: $2-$25. Yes, a $25 table maximum. I chuckled and asked the pit boss, "$25 maximum?" and he said, "Yep, we deal a friendly game here. We're not trying to make any money." I thought to myself, "Well if you're not trying to make any money, than fire up a single deck table, give me some good rules and let me make sure you don't make any money." After observing the three Nevada Highway Patrol vehicles outside, I decided I'd maintain a lower profile and not risk getting backroomed in the middle of nowhere. I made $6, pocketed a red for a souvenir, tossed the dealer the single and went on my merry way.
If you want to brag to your friends about playing the table maximum at a Nevada casino, here's your chance.
I did a quick inventory of the VP and found (4) quarter Pickem bartops.
FLYING J
I wasn't expecting much in the way of VP or BJ at a truck stop, and I certainly wasn't disappointed. No BJ tables and the slot area totaled about 4K sq feet. Total time in the place was a whopping 2 minutes. Much to my surprise, I found some dollar Pick Em. No slot club here, so the best play is to try to win some gas money while waiting for the tank to fill. Well, I didn't win, and the price of fuel suddenly jumped to $5 per gallon.
Before leaving Wells, I decided to inspect the shuttered stores. Am I the only one intrigued by boarded up casinos? I satisfied this bizarre curiosity of mine and checked out the boarded up Chinatown and Ranch House casinos. Why a casino operator would name a casino Chinatown in a po-dunk town like this escapes me.
ELKO
After a short 45 minute drive west on I-80 from Wells, I arrived in Elko. The combination of altitude and dry air had taken its toll on my lips. A stop at the nearest department store was a must. Ah, a site for sore chapped lips: a K Mart. Chap Stick safely tucked in my pocket, I headed for the door. What's that? Video poker in a K-Mart? Like a moth to a light, I checked out the paytables. Much to my surprise, I found a couple .25 9/7 Double Bonus. Good news for the poor husband who is forced to a retail establishment by his spouse. Of course, you won't get rich playing those, but it beats trying to muscle a 7 year old off the Playstation demo console.
GOLD COUNTRY
With my new found peace of mind thanks to the Chap Stick, I resumed my pilgrimage across Northern Nevada. My first stop in Elko was the Gold Country casino (owned by the Red Lion). A scan of this slot house produced nothing. About to give up empty-handed, I noticed a bar progressive of $2758. Hmm, that looks interesting. This fearless reporter bellies up and hits the "Menu" button on the Gamemakers. 8/5 Jacks pops up and, yeppers, these are quarter machines. Now, this play isn't that interesting, I think...until I notice a sign on the wall advertising a "Happy Hour" bonus that is valid from 2-6PM. The current bonus is $1550. A four grand royal (with an EV of 109%+!) for a quarter game isn't something you see everyday. Unfortunately, it was only 10:30AM and I had more ground to cover, so I passed.
RED LION
Ok, I've seen junkets for this place advertised in my local paper numerous times, so I was interested to see what it had to offer. There were several BJ tables, one of which was a SD, DOA game, which yields a house edge of only 0.18%. I only watched a few shuffles and it was strictly one round to the full table. I tried my best to get on the table to get a good story to share, but it was stacked full with old timers. Knowing they wouldn't be going anywhere soon, I continued my inspection. I noticed a slot club, but after seeing the VP offerings, I didn't bother getting details. Please forgive me.
Onward, I pressed and soon spotted a Starbucks. After 200 miles and several hours of hard labor, I needed a latte. With caffeine beverage in hand, I decided to have a seat and take a load off. Shock! What's that? A computer monitor with the big "E" on the desktop. Could it be? In the middle of nowhere? Internet? A quick double-click and I was re-connected with civilization and learned that my Cardinals had acquired Mark Mulder. Woohoo! With caffeine racing through my veins, I decide to head back to the tempting single deck BJ table. A half hour later, the old timer 'rocks' were still firmly planted and appeared to be going nowhere. Since I don't normally drink coffee, I couldn't sit still, so my journey continued to "downtown" Elko.
Playable video poker consisted of a few $0.25 Pickem's.
STOCKMEN'S/COMMERCIAL
These two casinos appear to be owned by the same entity, separated by a parking lot.
The blackjack game at Stockmen's was pretty pathetic for this part of NV. DD, H17 and 60% penetration, at best. One glance at these conditions, and I was out the door. There aren't any table games at the Commercial.
While in town, I saw an advertisement for an Elko brothel which stated, "Behind Stockmen's." I'm not sure what kind of BJ they offered there, but my guess is that it's better than the double deck game with 60% penetration at Stockmen's.
I don't know what it is with Gamemakers machines in this part of Nevada, but they seem to be popular. Again, the best full pay I found was Pickem: in nickel and dime denominations at Stockmen's and dollar PE at the Commercial casino. A quick inventory of the multi-lines produced a discovery of some 9/6 Jacks and NSUD Triple Play in nickels and quarters. No slot club.
WENDOVER
Time was getting short, but I calculated that I had just enough time to make a trip back through Wells to Wendover and arrive in Jackpot before my evening deadline. Note to I-80 drivers in this part of the state: Watch your speed. I was very surprised at the presence of several NV Highway Patrol cars. About 130 miles later, I arrived in Wendover. 2nd note to drivers: Don't allow your tank to get below ½ as there are no gas stations on the drive. Since I had only gotten a few gallons of gas earlier in the day while at the Flying J in Wells, my tank only had about ¼ left and I was about 80 miles from Wendover. The combination of the caffeine and the possibility of running out of gas had me on edge. I opened the glove box to see how much fuel would be in the tank when the warning light came on. Ah, there's the page I'm looking for which states that info...but I read on and discover the fuel warning light is "when equipped". Considering this Neon had a cassette player, no cruise control, manual windows and doors I came to the conclusion that it wasn't likely that it "was equipped."...but I managed to coast into a gas station in Wendover. Curiously, the lowest grade of fuel was 85 octane, which I've never seen before. It was a rental, so it got a tank full of 85. 3rd note to readers: Another reason not to buy a rental.
I was surprised to see that there are five casinos in Wendover, so I quickly realized I would not have time to inventory the VP. Still wanting to get one chip (I collect chips from every casino I've been to), I made a quick stop in each casino.
My first stop was the Peppermill and I immediately had flashbacks of the Peppermill in Reno. As I said about the 'Mill, if you're a fan of neon, there is no better place. After popping into Montego Bay and the Rainbow, even a keno player could figure out who owned those places; both were neon city. The Nugget and Red Garter didn't leave much of an impression, so I think one of the three 'Mill-owned joints would be the place to stay.
Sadly, I was not able to determine any BJ conditions or VP inventories in Wendover...so that'll be a good excuse to return to northeast Nevada at some point in the future.
The VP in this part of the state isn't worth hopping on a plane for, but the scenery is nice, the blackjack games are beatable, and the people are courteous. It's a far cry from today's Las Vegas.
Glossary of terms
VP: Video Poker.
FPDW: Full pay deuces wild. Game returns 100.7% with optimum strategy.
NSUD: Not So Ugly Deuces wild. The second best paytable for video poker, returning 99.7% with optimum strategy.
9/6 JOB: The full pay version of Jacks or Better. The 9 refers to the payback for a full house with one coin bet and the 6 refers to the flush payback. This game returns 99.5% with optimum strategy.
CTR-Averse Betting *LINK*
Posted by Sonny on 08-Jun-2005 10:26:06 (#13280)
A very interesting article on bet sizing and trip ROR for big bettors.
-Sonny-
Bonzo Goes Downtown
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-Jun-2005 02:44:05 (#13281)
It all started with a business trip gone bad. I was visiting a potential customer out in Southern California, trying to sell them some instrumentation for qualifying a product they make. Unfortunately, not only did my product tell them something about theirs that they didn't want to hear, ther product was also the pet project of a very senior guy in this company. This has happened to me many times before. You are in the same position as the high school guidance counselor explaining to the town judge what his daughter has been doing at after-school parties- nothing you say will be accepted and any attempt at logic or reason will only make matters worse. As you might have guessed, this senior guy didn't thank me for showing him something he didn't know about their company's product, no, the idiot cancelled all future meetings and booted me and my partner out.
So here I am with 26 hours to kill. My first two choices are: 1) Head south. There's Tijuana, cheap booze and Adelita's, and a visit to Barona. 2) Head northeast. Las Vegas, twice as far, but I don't have to worry about getting tapped out of games because there's always another one next door. I withdrew a playing stake at Bank of America and chose I-15 northeast. Jean and Primm caught my eye on the way, I fired up my laptop and checked CBJN, nothing quite my style was there so I fought the traffic and headed for Downtown.
My first stop was to be the Western. I checked into one of the nearby chain motels and unpacked my business stuff, took a quick review of the indices and spreads for Downtown SD and walked to the Western. Spreading green which they don't seem used to seeing, but no heat. I was down, way down, then way up, then down agan, you know the drill. Lower class crowd, and this one scummy looking guy was hawking me over my shoulder and taking way too much interest in me and my money. I know it when I see it. I cashed out for around $2K and went to leave, watching out for this guy all the way. Self-defense tip: changes in timing can foil an assault. I staggered out of the Western painfully slowly, playing the part of the drunk dumb tourist, and as soon as I was out of the guy's line of sight I ran like hell. That way, if he follows me out or calls someone to meet me, I won't be where they expect me to be. Left the store up a few units.
Working my way down Fremont Street I was having winning session after winning session playing SD and occasionally DD. I did find a DD carnival game with pen so good I can't imagine it would be worse than the other DD games but I have to run the numbers to be sure. Found an interesting sidebet too that appears very playable and I'm working on that right now. Up about $1K and I finally took a fall at the LVC and gave half of it back. Ended the night back at the Western and gave the rest of it back and then a little bit more, aw heck. What a bad streak of variance I hit at my second Western sitting, dealer dealt himself so many good cards I was suspecting cheat and watching his grip. (Only place I saw a mechanic's grip was at the El Cortez and I was winning there.) I didn't get tapped out of a game all night but did get shuffled up on and moved on when this happened. One thing that struck me as unusual was that at every house I played in, my dealer got a long and pedantic lecture from the floor, while dealing, on not flashing the hole card. I'm not a proficient holecarder (got maybe 2 or 3 all night) so I was wondering what the deal was with that, maybe just the size of my action prompts this behavior?
It gets stranger. The next morning I was in a bit of a hurry to catch my flight back in CA, but I did have time to go back down Fremont Street and write down the pay table of that sidebet I'm working. I'm heading back, and right around where the 7-11 is there's a homeless bum standing on the sidewalk, talking to himself and making these karate-type gestures. I give him the normal bum treatment, no eye contact, and as I walk by he punches me in the face and he walks towards the Experience. He didn't hurt me (not easy to hurt me above the neck) and I didn't turn around to fight. Unless absolutely necessary never fight a bum. They have nothing to lose and you do. Most of those guys carry hepatitis B and a lot carry type C and HIV too so you don't want their blood anywhere near you. There's also a scam where they provoke someone to beat them up, and the next time you see them it's in court, they have a neck brace on and a dozen people swearing they saw you swing first, and a lawyer making you out to be some mean rich guy who beats up homeless people for sport. So I recognized this as a negative EV activity and avoided it. Right down the block was a Metro officer who already got the call; he told me this guy had been walking down the street kicking and punching everyone he met and they were right on him. Unfortunately I didn't have time to go to the PD and swear out a complaint.
What a city- I don't even have to sit down at a BJ table to get beaten up some days! I left bolloxed beaten and bewildered, but got some valuable LV experience and still enjoyed the trip more than I do most losing sessions.
What did you play at the LV Club?
Posted by Anthony on 09-Jun-2005 10:13:00 (#13282)
AM,
Hi. I was curious what game you played at the LV Club? I know they have a DD game with really good rules, but they've taken out most of thier SD games. My cousin and I use to play there a lot, but the last I remember they were down to one SD game, and it was always packed. I've played at the Western many times, but never had a problem. I get the remark a lot "you look like a cop" so maybe that's why. Plus, the Western is a very HOT spot as far as police activity and UC work. You don't have to be worried, and that guy looking over you're shoulder, it happens a lot there. As far as the Bum, you did the right thing and walked away. Wish your trip turned out better, but what can you do?
Have fun
SD
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 12-Jun-2005 11:45:11 (#13289)
No they had some decent SD there too. The DD game you're talking about I saw too, called "World's Most Liberal", great pen also, but being it's a 1:1 BJ game you need special counts and plays to play it properly and I wasn't prepared. Maybe next time.
LVC has real DD too
Posted by Theef on 13-Jun-2005 08:36:12 (#13291)
with good Barrick penetration.
As for the "most liberal BJ," if you really want to learn the strategy for a 1:1 game, you could always go for SF21 down the street.
I'm kinda surprised they closed their sports book. It's a sports-themed casino. At the moment.
Good post!
Posted by Sonny on 09-Jun-2005 11:08:10 (#13283)
> So here I am with 26 hours to kill. My first two choices are: 1) Head south.
> There's Tijuana, cheap booze and Adelita's, and a visit to Barona. 2) Head
> northeast. Las Vegas, twice as far, but I don't have to worry about getting
> tapped out of games because there's always another one next door.
You forgot about the most important option: 3) CALL SONNY! He'll give you a free ride to either place. I've been looking for a reason to cash in some of my sick days.
> My first stop was to be the Western. Spreading green which they don't seem
> used to seeing, but no heat.
The western has come pretty far in the past year or so. They raised all of the minimums to $5 (except for their lone shoe game) and the cage is much less paranoid about larger transactions. The higher limits also discourage some of the old "regulars" that clogged up the place. They don't see too much green action, but they'll let you get away with it sometimes. They're trying to become competitive with the other downtown casinos so they're willing to be more tolerant of "big" players. If they could only clean up the neighborhood it would be just like a real casino, but then it wouldn't be the Western anymore, would it?
> What a bad streak of variance I hit at my second Western sitting, dealer
> dealt himself so many good cards I was suspecting cheat and watching his
> grip. (Only place I saw a mechanic's grip was at the El Cortez and I was
> winning there.)
I once lost 20 units in fifteen minutes there. That is still my record for speed-losing and all I got out of it was a crummy comp to their cafeteria. I initially thought the same thing, but a good mechanic will know better than to use the mechanic's grip anyway. At least it was a decent Reuben
> I didn't get tapped out of a game all night but did get shuffled up on and
> moved on when this happened.
How often did they shuffle up? I guess they're still pretty nervous about
green play but I've never seen a dealer there shuffle up before, and I play very aggressively. I guess they just don't care about a few red units here and there. Ah, I love the built in camouflage of red play.
> Unless absolutely necessary never fight a bum.
Words to live by. Or, perhaps more correctly, words not to die by.
> Right down the block was a Metro officer who already got the call; he told me
> this guy had been walking down the street kicking and punching everyone he
> met and they were right on him.
He probably just realized that John Patrick has been lying to him all these years! Ask any homeless person about John Patrick and they will tell you the same thing: "Sure, I use his system. Someday I'm gonna be rich!"
-Sonny-
DEMOCRATS would say......
Posted by phantom007 on 10-Jun-2005 00:16:37 (#13284)
That this poor BUM hit you not out of anger, but rather a "Desparite Cry For Help!" If you, A.M., are a Democrat, then you should have picked yourself up, cuddled him, gave him your +EV, then drove him to a Casino, wherein, he would have at least a LONG-SHOT chance of becoming a TAXPAYER, i.e., a REPUBLICAN!
Conversely, Auto-Ape, if you are a REPUBLICAN, after he hit you, and you picked yourself up, you had several acceptable options available:
-----1. GLOCK.....Mafia Folk suggest a 2:1 Spread, i.e., #2 to the Chest, and #1 to the Head......I prefer a 2:2 Spread!.....Much less chance of creating a Brain-Dead Vege. that the LIBERALS will want to keep alive FOREVER!...and, of course, at the EXPENSE of the Republicans, i.e., TAXPAYERS.
-----2. BLADE.....Everybody "goes for the Jugular", which is a vein. May I suggest rather a hug to the BUM, with a Double-edged, non-serratted blade put into the Renal Artery, RIGHT or LEFT Renal Artery is your choice.....each receives about 5% of one's Cardic Output/minute....i.e., #20 Heartbeats until EXANGUINATION! Very important....be sure that blade is angled 15 Degrees upwards, with at least a 90-Degree turn Clockwise (Right Renal Artery), and the converse for Left!
-----3. JOB.....Offer to drive the BUM to a place where he can get a JOB! He will be guaranteed to LEAVE YOU ALONE thereafter!
Just some thoughts.
BTW, A.M., what did you do when this guy "Bitch-Slapped" you?
Phantom007.
Grossjean and Russo win suit against Caesars
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Jun-2005 17:24:44 (#13286)
We are infomed that James Grossjean and Michael Russo won an award, so far, of $100,000 in their suit against Griffin and Caesars. Punitive damages are to be detirmined next. zg
------------------
Radar_O'Reilly writes at BJForum -
The charges against Caesars and Griffin were for libel and false imprisonment. The jury found in favor of James and Mike on every charge.
As late as the closing arguments, Griffin's attorney was attempting to paint these honest skilled advantage players as cheaters, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
James, Mike and Bob Nersesian put in an incredible amount of time, work, and analysis, as well as a substantial amount of money, to achieve this outcome. They were determined from the start to obtain justice, no matter what it took, and they remain determined, no matter what it may take in the future. They also went through serious hardship and stress to obtain this result.
Bill Zender, one of the very few people in the gaming industry who actually understands the games and advantage play, was a voice of competence and honesty as an expert witness, as opposed to George Joseph, whose testimony came down to, in my opinion, a bunch of lies and card tricks.
One thing that became apparent in the trial is that the casino industry will scour everything a player has ever written and take it out of context to try to portray him as a scum in court. Therefore, we are going to wait until the punitive damages have been decided and we have a chance to talk more with the players before we post any further comment. You already know that this is a historic event for players....
listen up you guys
Posted by Learning to count on 12-Jun-2005 22:30:54 (#13290)
this was a historical case. Many changes good and bad are coming down the pike for advantage players becase of this case. I have the honor to say that I was in court and was able to witness history. Ken Uston is dancing in the big casino in the sky. This is a definite precedence case. The days of illegal detainment, false arrest, kidnapping and fake trespassing charges are ending for AP's. There will be more information coming. There are discussions on other sites as well. To all you casino types here you have to take notice and change these illigal activities. Congrats to M. russo and J. Grossjean. Hey Bev good luck I hope you can find a job selling perfume your agency is in dire straights. To the short red headed wanna be dick tracey I hear that wal mart needs a garden center sales man.
Any update on the $400,000 award...
Posted by Greasy John on 13-Jun-2005 18:17:37 (#13293)
against the Imperial Palace? I had heard the award was lowered.
Greasy John
I believe the judge said it was
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Jun-2005 19:06:28 (#13294)
state law that limited such awards to $350,000.00 This will be times two in this case.
Nevada Revised Statutes 42.005 *LINK*
Posted by LV Bear584 on 13-Jun-2005 19:37:17 (#13295)
NRS 42.005 Exemplary and punitive damages: In general; limitations on amount of award; determination in subsequent proceeding.
1. Except as otherwise provided in NRS 42.007, in an action for the breach of an obligation not arising from contract, where it is proven by clear and convincing evidence that the defendant has been guilty of oppression, fraud or malice, express or implied, the plaintiff, in addition to the compensatory damages, may recover damages for the sake of example and by way of punishing the defendant. Except as otherwise provided in this section or by specific statute, an award of exemplary or punitive damages made pursuant to this section may not exceed:
(a) Three times the amount of compensatory damages awarded to the plaintiff if the amount of compensatory damages is $100,000 or more; or
(b) Three hundred thousand dollars if the amount of compensatory damages awarded to the plaintiff is less than $100,000.
HOWEVER, note:
... 2. The limitations on the amount of an award of exemplary or punitive damages prescribed in subsection 1 do not apply to an action brought against:
... (e) A person for defamation.
AAAAAAAAAAA SOOOOOOOOOO
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Jun-2005 21:55:46 (#13296)
It will be very interesting on friday!
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